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The Best Incentive in Web3 Gaming. (🎮,🟢)
Recorded: Aug. 14, 2024 Duration: 1:06:39Space Recording
Full Transcription
the newbies for joining us here. For those of you who don't know, my name is Justin,
aka Justin the Mind here on X, and I am the head of community and also part of the business
development team here at Ancient8. And just a brief intro about Ancient8, we are building an
Ethereum Gaming Layer 2, which is built on the Optimism Superchain. We offer a suite of Web3
gaming infrastructure tools that serve as the distribution and marketing channel for games
globally. We build products like Space3.gg, who I'll let them introduce themselves in a second.
We also have Ancient8 Gaming Guild, who very much participates in gaming events all over the space,
game nights, tournaments, all that good stuff. And then we also have Reniverse Web3 Ads Engine,
who is redefining advertising in Web3. So a lot of great builders inside the Ancient8 ecosystem.
Things are really just getting kicked off inside the Ancient8 ecosystem. So much more to do here.
But we're excited to have you guys on board today. And we're going to be talking about the best
incentives in Web3 Gaming. And not only the best incentives, because we got King Snooch here,
and King Snooch won't let us get away with that. So we're also going to talk about some of the worst
incentives, right? Because we like to pick this apart from both sides on these conversations.
And King Snooch won't let us do without that anyway. So it's going to happen whether you guys
like it or not. But you know I'm excited for it. I love hearing this conversation from all sides.
So we're going to pick it apart as usual. All right, guys, to get things started,
can we just warm up the algorithm a little bit? Let me see some hearts in the chat here.
Let me see some emojis if you guys are excited about today's conversation.
If you're getting the day warmed up, or maybe you're closing the day out,
depending on what side of the world you're on, you're feeling good. Let me see some energy from
you guys. Appreciate that. And last but not least, if you guys wouldn't mind sharing the space out
into the timeline, and also drop us a comment down in the comment box. Let us know what's cooking in
your ecosystem. Hit us with a GM. Hit us with your favorite GIF. Whatever you guys want,
all engagement down in the comment box does help us with a little algorithm push. All right,
without all that out the way, quick intro from my man Leo behind the Ancient8 account.
How are you feeling today, brother? You were back inside the water bottle again, Leo.
I'm sorry to tell you.
Yo, bro, how's it going? I was trying to tell everyone to enjoy the music, right? But I think
there's some technical thing over there. Hey, everyone, how's it going? I'm Leo,
social media manager at Ancient8. Today's a super exciting topic. I knew it already because
one week, this space was oversubscribed one week ahead. So looking forward to the juicy stuff
that we're going to discuss. For me right now, I'm cooking up some incentive for the stakers
of the Ancient8 token that has just been launched one month ago. A lot of things are still unfolding.
Um, and would love to learn more about, uh, what the best incentive in this space. So back to you,
legend. Let's go. We're definitely going to talk about staking as one of those mechanisms,
as a juicy incentive in web three. But, uh, again, we want to talk about both sides of it. What makes
it a strong incentive? What kind of, uh, makes it a tough incentive and kind of get both sides and,
and see what, what everybody's, uh, seeing here in the space. All right, next, let's swing it over
to space three, my man, Ronald. How are you feeling today, brother? Yeah, man, all good. Can you guys
hear me? I was getting rocked a wall again. Uh, you're good to go now. Awesome. Awesome. Hey guys,
it's lovely seeing you. And of course, some familiar faces here. Luke, Stefan, Saad, um, uh, King Snooch.
Yeah. How are you doing guys? Uh, absolutely stoked to be here again. Um, and then after a wonderful
week, um, we are working on our, our space three NFT launch, like I mentioned earlier,
and we're working with some close partners. And I myself, I'm preparing for, uh, well, the trip two
weeks later, which is, uh, in Japan, WebEx. And then after that, Singapore, uh, token 2049. And then
we've got Solana breakpoint. So if you guys are going to be around, well, very nice to
catch up IRL. And yeah, of course, uh, we'll drop some alphas as well as always. Um, and,
and yeah, I'm going to talk about some incentives that I believe personally, I personally believe
works best, uh, be it like, uh, if you're a gaming ecosystem or, or like, um, or a questing
platform, like, like, uh, space three itself, we position also more like more, more, more than
that. Of course we are, you are engine, but yeah, I'll be definitely talking about a couple
of those, um, touching those points while we move on, uh, with the space. Right guys.
Thank you. Oh yeah. Uh, Shiv as well. Yeah. There's a lot of, lots of familiar faces.
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Our brother Shiv in the building. I guess we might as well swing it over
to Shiv since we did, uh, call him out just now. Earth from another sun in the building. Shiv,
how are you doing? Very, very good. How's it going guys? Very happy to be here. Excited
to get into the conversation. I think incentives are something which have defined a lot of subsets
of web three and they've been used in a very strong and positive manner as well as also in
a way which has made communities angry in the past. So I think it's a very good conversation
to get into and would also be happy to discuss some good and bad examples. I'm joking.
Love it Shiv. Yeah, definitely want some of those good and bad examples that you've seen in the
space, uh, especially as a game builder. We're always trying to think of the incentives,
right? To keep, uh, keep these gamers excited, keep them activated. So yeah, man. Uh, next let's
pass it over to my man, King Snooch, I think behind the game starter account today. Is that you brother?
You know it brother. Um, I'm happy to be here. Also, uh, I gotta say banger crew here. The panel
is stacked for sure. Always love being on a space with Matt. So this is going to be exciting. I'm sure
there's going to be some, uh, some shit posting going on and some fun chatter. Uh, I see so many
legends down there in a speaker fan. Like this is, this is going to be a good one. Um, let's get
after it though. Yeah. I I'm excited to do, uh, kind of throw, throw some, uh, spicy takes on this
one. We'll say for sure. Absolutely brother. We're going to get into it for sure. Uh, next let's throw
it over to my man, Stefan. Uh, how are you doing today, brother? Hey, Hey, I'm doing pretty good
today, but the only thing missing for myself has been my voice. I got kind of sick yesterday. Maybe
it's COVID. Maybe it's not, but I'm Stefan. I'm building armor wallet. It's like an AI powered
wallet that you can do complex trading. It's good for beginners. It's good for traders. And the main
thing is I'm very big onto gaming and I really like when somebody has a good incentive. So is it
airdrops, is it going to be something different this time? So we'll see, are we going to discover
the new meta today? Absolutely. If, uh, somebody here on the panel's got a new meta for us, we're
ready to hear it first, right here on gaming on the edge. So please do drop the hot sauce
if you got it for us. All right. Uh, next I'm going to swing it over to call of the void. GM GM.
GM GM. Good afternoon for those in Europe and a good, whatever it is for those in the
rest of the world. Super stoked to be here among legends, living legends of the space
as well. And, uh, yeah, just a little bit about us. Call of the void is a top down ARPG
shooter available now to play in your toilet with one hand, um, on Apple and Android iPhone
and whatever you want. Just play it, just download it. It's fun. Let's get into some incentive
lads. I'm, I'm excited about this. Um, I was going to just say money, um, and then conversation
over really. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. If we're talking about the best incentive
in web three, I'm not sure that it's, it's arguable at this point, but, uh, we're going
to argue it anyway. We're going to get into it and see if anybody can, uh, can bump us off
that mountain top. Uh, but I'm curious to see it myself. Uh, next let's swing it over
to Derpy's NFT. I think joining us for the first time today. Uh, welcome GM. I'm the new
kid on the blog, GM, GM. Uh, I know a couple of guys, uh, that are in space already. I've,
I've seen them at other spaces as well. Uh, I'm the founder and artist and animator
of Derpy's NFT. Uh, Derpy's NFT is basically a collection that recognizes that web free and
crypto can be super, super complex and complicated, uh, not only for newcomers, but also for, uh,
yeah, people that are already in the scene for years, um, because yeah, it innovates it
constantly and, uh, therefore it can be overwhelming to some people. Uh, and that's also true in
web three rights or in, uh, in gaming. So that's, uh, yeah, what we're talking about today. Uh,
and I'm also, uh, Derpy's really tries to educate the space through educational content,
fun memes, DJ and culture, uh, and yeah, building a community of Derps basically that want to
change a web free. Uh, so yeah, I'm excited to see what's coming out of this space.
Awesome. Great to have you here for the first time. And as a natural Derp myself, I absolutely
love the branding, love the PFP. So can't wait to hear a little bit more about what you guys are
building within your, your ecosystem there. Uh, next let's pass it over to Turf Gaming. I think
also joining us for the first time, uh, GM, my friend, who do we have joining us today?
GM, GM everyone. Uh, this is the bio behind the profile, uh, and I'm the founder of Turf Gaming.
We are trying to bring the competitive gaming industry to the web space, enabling every game
to be equipped with, uh, e-sports excellence. That's kind of a bit. And I would love to talk
about the best incentives. And, uh, to be honest, I'm excited about it because, uh, incentives are
the genesis blocks of the web space gaming and would love to talk how exactly it's getting
more and more popular and, uh, share some examples as well.
Absolutely. Can't wait to hear how you guys are throwing incentives around within your ecosystem
over there at Turf Gaming. Uh, next let's swing it over to Thrust. Who do we have joining us today?
Thank you, legend. It's choice behind the account. Happy to be here with you guys on these lovely
spaces with all the legends on the panel. We are building the Web3 disk alternative with on-chain
rolls, on-chain tokens that communities can launch, community-first tokens. And yeah, we believe
on a platform that is social-fi and that is truly integrating the on-chain technology as we believe
on an on-chain future. That's enough of a chill. Love the topic and looking forward to the conversation.
Let's go. My man, Choice, joining us again, brother. Always great to have you here.
And last but not least, I think joining us for the first time as well, Rodrigo, co-founder of Moonray
Game. Welcome, uh, welcome to the, to the event, sir. GM.
Hey guys. Hi everyone. Thanks for having me. Um, thanks to Ancient8 for having us. We've known the
team at Ancient8 for several years, so we know it's a, that's a really good group. Um, yeah,
I'm on the team at Moonray. We have, um, we're a game studio. Our first game is on Epic Games right
now. It's like a 4v4, um, PC sort of melee, um, sort of like Quake crossed with, um, Devil May Cry.
That's kind of how we describe it. Um, and happy to, uh, take part in the conversation and then meet
everyone. Awesome to have you here, Rodrigo. Thank you for joining us. All right, guys,
I think we're going to go ahead and jump straight on into it. Uh, so for the newbies here today,
I just want to kind of let you guys know how we like to let things flow on this space,
which is we really like to create like an open conversation. So I'm going to throw a comment.
I'm going to throw a question out there. Uh, first one that wants to jump on in there,
please do jump on in after, after we have somebody, uh, speaking, then you guys can go
ahead and throw hands up and we'll try to go in whatever order possible and feel free to ask each
other questions. We like to keep it like really an open free flow conversation here on Gaming on the
Edge. Uh, so yeah, let's go ahead and jump right into it. So I'm, I'm just going to jump straight in
and kind of keep, kind of keep this flat and easy. I'd like to know what you guys think right now
in the space is the, the metaphor, the best incentive that you've seen in web three gaming,
or you can throw out the other opposite end. Maybe you can talk about something that maybe
the space thought was a good incentive, but now we're seeing may not be the best incentive for web
three gaming. So let's go ahead and jump straight into it. The first hand I saw was game starter,
my man, King Snooch kick us off. Then we'll go to a shiv. Then we'll go to call it the void.
Matt, I beat you to it. Let's go. No, I gotta say, um, one of the best incentives I've seen
in gaming in general, not just, not just web three, but in gaming in general, which I would
really love to see in more web three games is the incentive of luck. When, when I say that,
what I mean is if you have, let's, let's use fricking gap and gotcha games, right? Like, uh,
uh, Ray shadow legends when you buy something and there's a, a small, small, tiny chance that you can
get something really, really bad-ass out of it. That draws people in that sucks people in. They
want to spend money. They want to gamble on a chance of getting something awesome that, that chance.
And that moment, right. In a gamers like gaming journey where they get that one pole. That is
like the thing that they're trying so hard for is the best rush of adrenaline for a gamer. I'm going
to use call the void. For example, if, if they had this chest that I could buy every time that had
like a one in like 400 chance of having a new champion that is just really, really fucking strong
with the coolest weapon that does like the coolest graphic attack. I would be spending stupid
amounts of money on that because that's, that's the gamer in me, right? That's the, the D gen gamer,
not the crypto D gen, the D gen gamer. That's going to dump a bunch of money on the off chance that I
get really, really lucky and get that cool ass thing that I want. Now on the opposite side, what I will
say, one of the, one of the things that, you know, is the worst incentives for, from my perspective in, in
web three gaming is this play to earn aspect. You know, this, everybody gets a participation trophy. It's
extremely extractive and there's no money injected into a project. And when you have that, there's no
long-term sustainability. If you had something more along the lines of like a win to earn where people had to prove that
they're doing something to earn, then yes, I could see that working, but this whole play to earn where you
just show up, sign in and you get something like a participation trophy, I think it's just bad in
general for the space. It's extremely extractive and it doesn't add value to the project aside from vanity
metrics. Okay. A lot to unpack there, Snooch. I want to throw back a question back your way in the space
recently. Does anything come to mind in terms of a game out there right now that you feel like does have
this good, uh, luck mechanic kind of baked in anything that you're seeing that you want to
shout out? Uh, cause it's always good for us to have eyes on some, some good examples.
Ooh, man, you threw me on the spot there. Um, web three. I know a lot of web two ones,
not a lot of web three ones. Um, I would say a web two one, if that stands out more for you.
Oh shit. Well, one of the ones I play every day is a game called, uh, watcher of realms where it's
just, it's like a mix between raid shadow legends and tower defense. Um, I'm, I'm absolutely hooked
on a game. I play it every day. I'd probably dumped way too much into it. And I really enjoy
it because you get like a chance of one out of 200, right? After, after the, the way it works,
right? If you use common shards to like open a chest after you've used 200 of them, you get,
what's called a pity timer and you get increased odds every time after that of getting a legendary
pole. So it takes you 200 to get to that. But after that point, once you've spent, you know,
200 shards, which in this game, each shard is worth about a dollar. So you think about that once
you've used about $200 worth of your money, you're guaranteed to very shortly after that,
get one of the legendary ones. That's really hard to get. Um, I think it's a great idea. It's a great
aspect. It adds a lot of value to the game and you wouldn't believe how many people dump stupid
amounts of money into that for that one reason right there. They want to get to that, that point
where they have a chance of getting that legendary character that really, really takes them to the
next level. Love that. Yeah. As far as web three, as far as web three right now, I would say the
closest thing I've seen, not really the same, but similar is off the grid with the, um, hexes that
you randomly get while you're in the map, you can randomly get a purple one, which is really rare,
but then you have to try and actually extract it and fight other people for that. So it adds a whole
different element, but, uh, also, you know, one of those things that there's that little luck chance
that you can get one and extract it and have that NFT. That's really rare. That drives you to want to
play. Love that. Appreciate you dropping both a web two and a web three example. I absolutely didn't mean
to hit that, uh, sound effect there, but it was kind of cool though. Um, yeah, no, that's awesome.
Snoop. See, this is the, this is the kind of stuff I love to get into is like, yeah, give us some real
life mechanics that's going on in the space. That is, that is example worthy that we can take a look
at. Cause that's, you know, that's huge kind of for the dynamics of, of where things are going this
way. Um, you know, in, in this industry. So, uh, I'll swing it over next to earth from another sun
shift. Then we'll go over to Matt. Then we'll go over to Stefan. Then we'll go over to thrust.
Thank you. Although I believe call of the void had their hand up before me, but I'm not complaining.
Um, I think when we're looking at web three gaming, there's a few trends which have emerged,
which the communities have gravitated towards. And I think gotcha mechanics are definitely one of
them. And they appeal to the instinctive degen within most web three gamers. I think alongside
that a few other mechanics, which I've seen be pretty strong and definitely something which we are
also leveraging for the long term in our community. Uh, I think tiered reward systems are very,
very helpful because, um, liking snooch said, the level of how extractive games can get is
definitely something which stands as a long-term risk to gamify. And a good way around that is
instead of having maybe participation trophies where everyone is looking for some value, there can be a
minimum threshold starting. And after that, the more time you invest or the more money you invest,
the better your rewards. So there should be some sense of either skill or monetary investment,
because there's going to be enough people in the world that have no time, that have time to do
whatever the hell it takes to get a few bucks. So if that is the mechanic within web three, which
in 2021 and 2022, sure, it works. The quality of products are only improving. So I think that sense
of progression and status is very important. And then if you can buy and skill into it well,
which we at EFAST, for example, are doing, for example, model by the time
and earning side hand in hand, which means that, um, by mechanics, only if you're able to level up
certain guns or certain weapons, only then are you going to be able to get the rewards,
which are really tier one. And that chimes into the narrative of not being played to earn,
but play and earn something which we really, really wanted to imbibe into our community.
Because I think in the earliest days, if you build a project from the get go as a play to earn,
play to earn, play to earn, at some point, if you make it seem more easy than it is,
eventually it's going to get to a point where there are too many people looking to earn money.
And that can be bad for the ecosystem. I think time limited drops are also very,
very helpful, at least in my experience, they have been. I think, um, when you have an
addictive game or you have a community that keeps coming back for more, as long as you're able to
create urgency or to create feedback loops in your community within the game, whether the,
whether it's the missions you set, that really, really helps. So I think these alongside maybe
also having, uh, especially when you're making your tokenomic model, a sense of governance along
where the project goes, even if it's, uh, to a very limited extent does help the community feel
more involved. And these incentives are going to be, uh, very important for people that actually want
to play the game and people that are actually going to be Web3 gamers. Uh, in terms of, um,
incentives, which I think are not good, which definitely can be a long, long list, but I think
there's a lot of false scarcity, which comes with gaming, at least in the early days. I don't know
how much of it is still there. Uh, but when you have this sense of false scarcity where you're
manipulating the market for your first mint, and then you have another mint and another mint,
you're basically setting yourself up for inevitable failure at some point.
So I think it does take a certain level of patience to be able to get that initial community
and to drive up the, um, belief more than hype in your project. And once you're able to do that,
if you leverage maybe tiered reward mechanisms, if you leverage certain ways of having the community
actually wanting to leverage skill or money to get rewards, it's going to be way better for everyone
at stake than just having this dream sold of click a few buttons, make a few dollars,
the dollars and leave, because eventually that like pot of gold will dry out.
So much good stuff to unpack there Shiv. I really like as well that you touched on the fact that like
it's, uh, it's not a mechanic based on the, this luck mechanic that exists is not based purely on,
uh, just being lucky within, within that mechanic, but you actually have to grind up to a certain
level within the game to actually earn the right to, you know, uh, uh, to play that type of gamble
mechanic, if you will. And same thing, I think it's a very similar to example to what, uh, Snooch
threw out there with, with the game that he's playing where you, you know, you need to at least
spend a certain amount before you can tap into that. Um, Snooch, did you want to jump back in on
that? Was, was there something specific to that one? I'll be honest that it's, I got so much I want to
say, but I'll let other people talk. All right. We'll swing right back around to you. Let's throw
over to Matt and then we'll go to Stefan. I think Shiv touched on a really important point and maybe,
maybe it's something that gets lost in the, in the general, other incredible points that Shiv made,
but you know, there is a real thing with belief versus hype. And I think one of the things that
we do since we front run the incentives more than any other kind of class of gaming, we put a lot
of incentives out there. And then there's this whole belief. And the belief is that say we're
giving away tokens or we're doing something like that. The belief is that token is going to go up
and that's why people are holding it versus sort of the hype, which is, you know, like the project
is going to be amazing and all the rest of it. If you have people who genuinely believe in this token,
then they're not going to just sell it. I mean, the main problem that we have is that the incentives
are not necessarily aligned with the gamers that we want. They're aligned with the gamers that
you deserve. And I think that's a real difficulty because you need people to come in. You need
people to see your game. You need people to play your game. And it doesn't really matter what kind
of systems that you put to get them in there. And what really is, what's the incentive for that
person? Everyone has their own incentives. And if their incentive is to collect a small amount from
as many games as possible, that is not the game you want. I like what Snooch was saying about
having chests and having all of these things. And I think we in general are a victim of surprisingly,
people would say this, but underfunding. So we don't actually have time as an industry to put in
the crazy amount of mechanics that you would see in a modern free to play mobile game. I mean,
battle passes, that's a massive thing. Battle pass is a play to earn system. You just play. And
generally, the quests are aligned with the things that you do in the game loop. And then there's
a premium version of that where you fork over some currency and then you get better rewards
on the end of that. And those can be randomized rewards. They can be static rewards. They can be
whatever. But I think it's really about like, is the player base incentivized to see your token go up
or are they incentivized to see the token just go into their pocket so they can sell it and they have
no care about the project. Because at the end of the day, a lot of projects with tokens, they have
this sort of mystery around them. Like, will this do on a hundred X? Why should it? Why should it?
Why can't you just have a sort of a stable coin, which just allows you to own the token that you're
using in the game to buy stuff, whether it's shards or whatever it is? Why does the token capital up?
I mean, that's, that's the incentive for meme coins. I mean, surely games can do something different.
Whereas if your token only gently appreciates, or if your token doesn't wildly swing in price,
then you're going to have a much easier to run economy. I mean, imagine going into a game and
the sort of item to get you started is way above your income bracket. And you know that the best
person in the game is rocking something worth 80 grand. That's a really difficult sell to get people
in. And so I think there's, there's so much depth to this topic. We could go on for hours.
Yeah. Honestly, I hate topics with this much depth because I feel like no matter how,
no matter how much we, we, we talk here, man, there's so much we're going to miss and not get
to cover. But yeah, I think you hit the head, the nail on the head there with, with a few different
aspects, including the, the, the, the token aspect here, which I think is something that we could spend,
you know, three hours talking just alone about that, but I'll swing it over to Stefan and then we'll go
over to thrust and then we'll probably touch back on that in a second here.
Okay. So I'm going to take it to a very, very different spot that I'm going to say e-sports
is the best incentive, which is totally off topic for what we were talking about today.
But when it comes to playing games and making an incentive, you want to do a couple of things.
You want to be better than someone else. That's like the natural human feeling everybody has.
You want to be either better than everybody else or better than your friends. That works too.
And plus when you add a monetary reward to it, I mean, the gaming itself as a niche started off
becoming popular after Dota 2 invented the international and started giving away a million
dollar price pool to everybody. And then they invented betting for those e-sports teams.
So I think e-sports are still the thing that's being watched the most. And when it comes to creating
content, you want to see people compete against each other. It's just like sports,
the digital version. So you have a lot of incentive to watch. It's fun for gamers and spectators alike.
Plus you get rewards. So I'm a massive fan of games that have a little bit of skill attached to them
and having a hint of e-sports where you can compete.
Oh, really, really like this one, Stefan, because I think that this is definitely when we kind of
start talking about sustainability as well for a Web3 gaming ecosystem. I think having this e-sport
aspect, this play to win aspect, as Snooch touched on a little bit earlier, is just so key in terms of
making this a truly sustainable industry. It really can't be something where everybody wins.
There has to be leaderboards that exist. There has to be MMR that exist as well, because you can't
just have only the best guys being the only ones that have the capability to earn. But kind of having
these tiered layers of having earning mechanisms at each kind of level, but still having that e-sports
aspect exist, I couldn't agree more there. Absolutely. And I just want to continue my take for
one more second, which is when you add e-sports, you can also add sponsors. And sponsors can bring
in fresh revenue to the entire ecosystem. So traditional games will take most of that revenue
for themselves, while three games don't have to do it, right? So it doesn't have to be something
like super obvious, like waiting 30 seconds for a video to pass, but you can do something like a
non-intrusive ad, like a billboard inside your game. Like if you have towers, if it's like a tower
defense game, a tower can be like a Coca-Cola bottle and then everybody else just shares
in the pricing, but he's just used to it. And you can do that only on e-sports or when you're
promoting events, which is like a massive way to gain an even wider audience and just get
co-marketing opportunities and make it more available to the Web3 public. I mean, make Web3
more available to the general public, because if they see big brands joining in this Web3 world,
they're going to be like, okay, if Coca-Cola is here, then I'm going to play this game, right?
Matt, I saw the thumbs down on the Coca-Cola. Was it because of the Coca-Cola or was there
something to that point that you, you, you disagree with there?
Yeah, it was a little bit of, I mean, it's, you don't really have to be careful with sponsorships,
which ones fit in your game. But I really think that we, we shouldn't get confused, like
bringing in sponsors to get more people in, I think is the reverse way because generally
sponsorship deals, they only look at you when you have a certain amount of volume and we're
in a position where we don't have volume. And, um, that means that the adverts that we run,
we don't get a lot of, um, we don't get a lot of, um, value from them unless we can prove the people
who are playing our game are whales, um, whatever that is. So you're more likely to, to actually have,
instead of a Coca-Cola bottle, something incredibly expensive in there because you're more,
it depends on your audience, right? If you've got a small audience, then you have to go for high
value items to get that ad click revenue. Um, but it is a good point. It's not that I'm against
sponsorship at all. I just think that there is no way in hell we're going to use that. Um,
we're going to get a good deal from Coca-Cola.
Yeah. Yeah. Tough to get the big boys interested just yet, but I think there, there,
there may be a time if we stay on the right path here. Uh, but I think that this is also,
uh, um, you know, a problem that, um, uh, Reniverse is also trying to serve with their,
their web three, uh, advertising that, that they're bringing into the space and, uh, you know,
creating more of that revenue share also between the game and the player base as well to make it not
only non-intrusive, but also actually make it a value add for the player base, uh, that is being
exposed to the, to those ads. So I think that there's also a way for, for that to also bring
a little bit more sustainability, uh, may not be Coca-Cola level dollars, but you know,
every bit of added revenue that can be shared with the player base does create a little bit more of a
healthy, uh, economy kind of brewing. So it's a, it's a very interesting take. I'll swing it over
next to turf gaming. Then we'll go to Derpy's. Oh no, I'm so sorry. Sorry guys. My, my bad.
We got to throw it to thrust. Then we'll go over to turf gaming. Then to Derpy's. Then to Rodrigo.
Keep it moving. Thanks guys. Thank you, Justin. Uh, yeah. A lot of takes so far from the legends.
I do want to re-touch some points that for me are crucial. Like what truly got me into
web three was the dream of living from gaming. I've been chasing since I was pretty young
and did it with my gaming son. And I'm doing it again, being a full-time web three person,
uh, which I love. So that, that dream of making profits and that financial benefits that, uh,
web three definitely offers and offered from the beginning on 2021. And I think that is what
probably on board of the biggest amount of, of people and including gamers, uh,
with the ax infinity bone, for example, it was definitely relevant. We obviously found out that
it was not sustainable and that it needs to be tweaked. But I do believe that with some fixes here
and their sustainability is going to be achieved. And definitely, uh, people will be able to,
to make, um, meaningful profits from the industry versus playing regular games. So that it will remain
a very relevant incentive for the overall community on web three. You know, people is looking forward to,
uh, getting something in exchange of their time, which is the most valuable asset. Then, um,
there was a lot of people that was clever enough to understand that it was not just about extracting,
but also about giving back. And I love to see how they have grown in the industry,
either via becoming content creators or just making some type of, um, UGC, but they got them
into, um, you know, full-time web three positions or within things that are now, um, of allowing them
to make a living out of the industry. So that financial benefit is definitely something that brought a lot
of people and that will continue to do. So then definitely in any gaming, either be web two or web three,
the entertainment, yeah, storytelling, that, that sensation and feeling of you being able to,
to unplug from, uh, the sometimes chaotic real world and just relax and doing what you do,
what you like to do, which is gaming, um, you know, competing, like, um, Stefan was saying,
and I'm flexing your progress and your achievement, uh, with your friends. But now you can also do it
with on-chain proof. Like, you know, when you are truly into a project, you cannot just, uh,
flex it through the in-game, um, progress and achievements, but you can't flex it through your
wallet and people can see what assets you own and how deep you are into a project because of how much
you invested in it, not just in terms of time, but also in terms of money. So you can tell how deep a
person is just based on, on their collection and, and their avatars or their PFPs. You can see what
communities they represent. Now the community building and the power of building communities and
getting people together, I believe is a key incentive. Like when you have a game that people
resonates with and likes and enjoys, you're building a community around that project. And
therefore you got them, uh, you give them a place where they can come back to, uh, be, be the guild,
be the community, be the project that they like, where they are meeting with people that they, uh,
shared a mission, shared a vision, and just love hanging out with. So that community that you're
building and those relationships that you are building along the way by spending time with
those communities that usually you end up spending time, uh, more time than with your own families.
Uh, that, that for me is, uh, probably the best, uh, of all of the incentives, you know,
is the people and the friendships that you make along the way and, and the networking potential that,
that unlocks this industry, that it cannot be compared to the regular, uh, web to networking.
Really love this choice. Cause as a community guy, head of community community as an incentive,
I think is definitely like one of the, you know, the incentives with the strongest stick ability,
the strongest retention power, if done right, right. We'll, we'll come for the game, but we'll
stay for the friends for sure. If we can, if we can create that atmosphere for, for the community.
So really love that. Uh, let's throw it over to turf. Then we'll go Derpys. Then we'll go Rodrigo.
Yeah, exactly. Like, uh, uh, I feel, uh, I have been speaking in some other spaces as well,
as Stephen mentioned about the competitive gaming aspect. And this is one of the crucial
thing that I see that, uh, this whole gaming industry need to adopt in terms of incentivizing
gaming just because that it's a human nature, like humans are competitive. Uh, let it be anything,
any subject matter that's out there. And when it's comes to specifically to the gaming industry,
the biggest incentive that we can see is I am mentioning like, Hey, I'm the best gamer in my town,
right? The credential, the proof of achievement that you get, uh, by saying that I'm best in the town is
something that the gamer starts to attain. Right. And these things comes not only just from,
let's say playing a game, but competing against your friends, because that's exactly the thing
where you get the credibility. Right. So, uh, obviously from the incentive point of view,
I'm just adding on to Stephen where I feel this e-sports industry or the competitive gaming industry,
when opted out as a culture in this whole Web3 ecosystem can literally boost the engagement,
can literally boost the retention that actually will be sustaining as well as obviously from the
monetary point of view, where a game just inflating their token and giving out rewards to every other
gamer or just playing the game, a whole new circular economy can be curated where I remember someone,
uh, explained about how sponsorship works in the e-sports industry, right? This whole sponsorship game
can be brought on top of the Web3 ecosystem resulting in a better, uh, economic flow, uh, new liquidity,
special liquidity, and from the traditional, uh, players in the industry. That's something I also
see as one of the crucial thing in terms of incentivizing gamers through competitions
and making things happen in this route.
Absolutely. Love that. Take tough. Anything to add on that Derpys?
Uh, I mean, I'm a complete Derpy, of course, but, uh, even in the Web3 gaming space, uh, but what I
really like Persona as a, as an NFT project, uh, they basically incentivized and gamified, uh, their
community and, uh, engagement with their community in a way because people get rewarded for, uh, high
quality engagement with their, uh, with other people in the community as well. Uh, so they get tokens
and if they, uh, they can stake these tokens, but, but they can also play games on their platform and
their, uh, basic, I mean, I mean, a lot of people, uh, probably know these, uh, notice projects already,
but, uh, you can play like fantasy football games, uh, and basically spend your tokens to maybe, uh,
win some more or lose them, but it's, it's basically in a fun and gamified way inside our ecosystem.
So I know this example of like a very concrete example of how a game, gamification, uh, NFTs can really
help community building, but from a, uh, uh, like I'm also a gamer, a normal gamer, uh, in between
brackets, uh, from a derpy that doesn't really know a lot about Web3 gaming. Like, um, I have a
question to all of you basically. Uh, so what's the, what is the added value of, uh, developing, but also
playing Web3 games if we forget the whole play to earn incentive? Uh, because for me, that's not really
clear yet. Um, derp out. Yeah, Matt, you want to jump in on that question? I mean, Rodrigo's
fans, his arm is probably aching now, but yeah, I have points. I have points. Let Rodrigo go before
we cover everything. Just one small point guys. Um, I would just recommend that you be very careful
with loop box mechanics, anything that you sell that has an element of chance, especially when what
you sell has a monetary value, check with counsel, uh, that could be legal risk and decide how much
risk that you want to take. Super solid point by Rodrigo. Uh, I'd like to throw it back over to
Rodrigo in a second here, but I want to hear your, your point on this one, Matt. I, and then I got a
question for Rodrigo after. Yeah. So I just wanted to say, you know, I mean, obviously Rodrigo, you're
correct. Uh, having worked in web two companies, um, as well, we had to so many loot box laws.
There are laws you have to follow. You have to show the chances, et cetera, et cetera. But anyway,
moving on to the point, it's like this whole, this whole play to earn mechanic thing. And why would you
be playing a web three game if you're not going to get money out of it? Yes. That is true. But we need
to reframe the equation from like what, uh, senior choice is making a really good point is that you
want to have players that can make money or like make a living from gaming, but you don't have to
do that in the sort of airdrop one time, big shot. Everyone gets something. If it's popular, they get
20 bucks. If it's not popular, they, they get 200 K, but then your token crashes. So it's probably worth
20 bucks. I mean, there is another mechanic. We have to use the things that gamers have been doing for
years and earning money on the gray market, but it's not supported by the current industry, such as selling
accounts. That's a huge thing, selling accounts and farming token that other people want. People
are farming token that other people want. You need demand. Like this is the number one thing your
token needs. It doesn't need sell pressure. It doesn't need farming. You want each farmer to only
be farming it. If there is like, and they have an entirely different sort of like mental setup.
If you have a leaderboard, they will happily create a hundred accounts to fill that leaderboard
with bots and only play on them their own. And then they will cash that reward. And then,
and then they will drop down onto the lower level and do the same thing. They don't mind if it takes
them a week to set up a hundred accounts. They have an entirely different method of getting income from
your game than you expect. What you want is true gamers. And the only way that you're going to get
that is if you do the thing that gamers and farmers have been doing and have been understanding for
years, that's selling accounts and bombing, um, money or items that are really time consuming to do.
But at the same time, everyone wants them, everyone needs them. And that's the market price of this.
And having that happening in the blockchain is a really, really safe way of doing it. So that's
what I would say. Solid takes as usual for my man, Matt, I want to throw it back over to Rodrigo and
just kind of hear, um, from, from what you guys have been building over at Moonray game. What, what,
what kind of incentives do you guys see working well within your, your community in the time that you
guys have been building the project? I definitely agree with what some of the speakers were saying
that you've got to think about the type of gamer that you want to attract. There are the extractors,
and there's been too much of that in web three who are just in it for, you know, tokens and nonsense
and things like that. And, and, and there is no way to make that sustainable. Those are obvious
ponzies. You can't build a strategy based on that. You have to attract real gamers. And then you have
to think about, okay, what do gamers really, really want? Um, and then you get into making interesting
things that gamers can earn, but they definitely have to earn it through playing. Um, and that's,
that's really, really important. And that's no different in web three than in web two. The only thing that web three,
I mean, the big difference with web three is, is you can create that trade ability of, of items
much more easily than you can in web two, but the mechanic of, of playing and earning something and
maybe getting a really cool rare item, I guess the same for games in general, just in web three,
we have all this awesome infrastructure that's already built for us that allows us to, uh, make,
you know, make trading, um, much easier for, for, uh, for gamers. And I think when you, when you can turn that on,
you can create, um, community in a different way that you can in web two, um, just like a little
bit with an extra, you know, like extra emphasis on community because people really enjoy having,
you know, more ownership of, of, of their items. Um, but definitely from everything we've seen,
it's very, very early in, in web three days. Uh, there's been way too much focus on the financial
aspects of web three, extremely unrealistic expectations, um, among audiences in general.
The idea, I mean, luckily we're through the last bull cycle where everyone thought if you bought
an NFT, you would be able to retire. Um, that idea that, you know, an NFT should, should go to the
moon and should go up a hundred X, a thousand X. I think it's a little bit ridiculous the way that we
think about what an item in a game is, you know, like imagine if you were to buy a skin for $20 and you
play with that skin for three months, six months, whatever it is, and then you get tired of it.
And then you sell it for $10, but you just got half your month, your money back. I think that's
great. That's something you can't do easily right now in web two, the skin doesn't have to go from
$20 to 2000, you know? And that's, that's, that's what we have to start to kind of, um, I think get
across to the audiences that let's everyone get a little bit more realistic. This isn't going to be,
you're not going to buy a Lamborghini if you play our game, but you can get some of your money back.
We're basically reinventing used games and we're reinventing, um, you know, used items. That's,
that's all it is. Absolutely, man. So much more of a healthy, sustainable, uh, ecosystem when we
get more players understanding that. And I think they're having no choice, but to have to at this
point, because we're just not seeing the, the NFT market do what it once did. And I think that that's
healthy for all. I want to swing it back over to Snooch on this one. Anything, anything to add here,
Hey, brother, I had too many apps open. Sorry. I was trying to get back to it. Um,
I did have something to add, but you guys already covered it. So, uh, I'm going to just say you guys
are all fricking on point and I'm loving Matt's take on this. And I agree. You know, there, there,
there are a lot of rules and regulations that you have to abide by, but that's the challenge on the
founders, figure it out and get through all of the legal behind it and make a game that works.
I know it's not easy. I know it's hard and it's a lot of work, but if it was easy, everybody be doing
it. A hundred percent. I want to throw it over to Ron. Ron, talk to us a little bit about incentives
from the space three side of things. What do you got for us? Yeah, man. I actually wanted to say a
couple of points, uh, the leadable thing, of course. Uh, but then I think someone else
touched on that. Uh, so I wouldn't be repetitive here. And also I had some background noise earlier.
Uh, but yeah, I think, uh, what we've been trying to do is like, and I, I personally feel like it kind
of works for anyone else. I can't hear anybody. Can you guys hear me? I can hear him. Give us a
thumbs up if you guys can hear him. It might be Snooosh that's getting rugged on us. Yeah. Snooosh,
I think you're getting rugged. We can hear him though. Okay. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. So what I was saying is like, um, of course we had, I mean, when it comes to,
I'll be more web three specific here, when it comes to like, uh, rewards and incentives,
like, okay, if you have a game, you're launching, um, uh, some campaign, uh, no matter where,
wherever it is, um, you say, okay, players come in and they say, oh, okay, we're getting money.
Let's, let's play. Why not? But like how to make it sustainable, like, uh, is it going to last?
Is it, uh, how can we scale it further? So, uh, why not, why not take feedback from the community?
Or let's, let's, um, you know, think about what they actually want, what makes them feel like,
you know, um, I would say more, um, I would say, uh, inclined to the, to the, to the community,
more sense of belongingness. How do we get that? How do we bring that? Um, of course we, we always
try to improvise. We always, uh, you know, taking a step ahead, uh, when it comes to, uh, trying new
things, uh, maybe it could, it could be in a way of like trial and error, but, uh, honestly, it has,
it has clicked for us. We, we did, uh, launch, uh, a new feature, which is called the gacha feature.
I think someone, uh, touched on that point as well. Uh, and that worked out pretty well. So we
had a mix of like NFTs, uh, native tokens, uh, stables in game rewards. So it's a mix of all of
these. And then this is something that makes players, uh, feel that belongingness, uh, you know,
they feel that part of being part of the game, being part of the community. So not just, they're not just
getting money. They're also, you know, trying the game out and also, you know, at the same time,
getting some sort of reward in any shape or form, not just like expecting that, okay,
we play the game and get some money out of it. Uh, and, and then to take a step further,
we, we are also doing the, the NFT launch that we, I just mentioned earlier when I introduced
that we want to create, um, you know, make it a more creative and decentralized, uh, on-chain
experience for our, for our users, for our community. And that's the reason why we are doing it.
Like we're working with some close partners who have already launched on space three.
And then of course, uh, to incentivize them, uh, in form of like, not just monetary value,
but also a unique on-chain experience, which is what we aim to achieve in the long run.
Yeah. Speaking of incentives for that specific campaign, um, you know, uh, ancient eight token
stakers as well, you know, creating the kind of the ecosystem incentive where, where stakers have the
incentive to stake, to get rewards, like opportunities to, to, uh, free mint the NFT
that's coming to the space three ecosystem. Uh, I think we could talk about staking as an
incentive. I wanted to dive a little bit deeper into it, but we didn't really get too much of a
chance today. There was a lot of great points. Um, I know it is about to be on the, on the hour,
just a minute here. So anybody that needs to run, uh, at nine, uh, please go ahead and do so.
I don't want to hold anybody up here too long. Um, but I, I did want to, uh, give a few others,
uh, an opportunity to throw out any other, uh, last points, uh, that are interested. So I'll swing
it over to Matt. And if anybody else has anything to share, please do throw a hand up.
I think it's really interesting that, you know, there is an industry out there and 80 or maybe
$90 billion industry, mobile gaming where up until recently, and there's only about 50 or 60
verifiable web three games, uh, running. They have had social casino worth billions where
no one cashes out anything. They've had gacha games and, um, incredibly intense Japanese games.
At one point months are like puzzle and dragons was 70% of all in-app purchases in Japan.
Not just in the gaming category. Like, and they have given out a nothing. And, um,
they even turned off the servers in Europe after people, but hundreds of thousands of dollars
are going to, and those people, if those things were NFTs, could have sold them back to the
Japanese market and, um, and being happy with it. So the thing that I would like to say is like,
we are incredibly good in the mobile industry in general of extracting value out of people and
giving them absolutely nothing. So we shouldn't be conned into thinking we have to pay the average
player like a neurosurgeon just for their time. There are billions of players out there who would be
happy with enough money from selling something that they like. And it's not about the value of
NFTs. They don't give a shit about how much, um, a sappy seal is worth or how much a board ape is
worth. They don't give a shit about that. They really care. Is my implant worth $5? If it is,
then I can sell it and I don't need it because I have two. Or is my super rare thing that I've got
two of, can I sell the duplicates? And if they want that money, they will use the services that
are like the shadow SaaS services that already exist to facilitate these trades and all of this.
So don't be tricked into thinking you have to give out all of your runway to very few players. Don't be
tricked into using incredibly expensive, um, not good quest platforms that some of them are around.
There are some really fantastic ones that just literally get people to turn up, post a chat GPT
comment under your Twitter, and then give them as much money as you have left in the bank. Those are
the worst. Um, but really there is value out there for everyone. And the incentives need to be aligned
with the players you want. The players you want should want to spend. They should need your token.
And if they do that, they will buy it. And those are the people you want. You don't want to be giving
things that people want to sell you. The only people who want to sell it are the people who
cannot play the game and they won't be able to play the game and enjoy it in the same way.
Those are the people that are allowed to sell the tokens because maybe they have an account that they
enjoy, but that's just my point. I'm sorry for taking it over. I really have to run as well, but
fantastic space. Thank you so much. Matt, always cooking, man. Coming with the hot takes. I love it.
And I couldn't agree more, man. I'm, I'm happy to play for a $2, uh, $2 discount on my Starbucks
coffee. I'd be, I'd be thrilled if I'm playing a game I'm enjoying. And, uh, those are the rewards
on the table. You could get me in all day long on that. So that, that is definitely the shift that
we're moving towards again, uh, moving away from people thinking that web three gaming is going to
necessarily replace their job, unless they're a super talented skilled tournament player, then they,
they could absolutely do that and they should, they should, uh, uh, shoot for that. Um, but on,
on, on an average, you know, average player like myself, somebody just trying to kill a little bit
of time. I think there, there's a lot of players out there that'd be super satisfied with, with a
lot of the points you guys made here in terms of returns. Um, all right, gentlemen, uh, with that
being said, I think we're, we're just on the hour here. I want to thank everyone again for joining us
on this week's gaming on the edge, a lot of quality takes. I really feel like we needed a three hour
space for this one, but we'll circle back around to this incentive topic again on a, on a future
space here. And we'd love to have a lot of you guys to, to, to come back and chat on it again.
For those of you who are new here, you will be receiving an invite coming from Leo, uh, who's
going to be inviting you guys into our telegram channel. And we implore you guys to come hang out
there, network amongst each other, share links to your things. When you guys are launching stuff,
share your spaces. When your spaces go live, it's a, it's a free space for everybody to,
to gather and, uh, you know, just chat and chill and, uh, share whatever you guys got going on in,
in the space so we can all stay connected and building together. All right. With that being
said, guys, everybody have an amazing day and amazing evening, wherever you're tuning in from,
and we'll see you next week on gaming on the edge. You guys go crush it out there.
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To be continued...
