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The Brave Show: Attention is the Ultimate Asset
Recorded: Sept. 12, 2025 Duration: 1:01:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
Oh, I'm way too early.
I'm here way too early i'm here way too early this is i i need to leave and then go take a nap and come back now i'm just kidding all right quick sound check quick sound check everyone can hear
me just throw up some emojis just double checking all right we got i was gonna say it's just you and me sansito but then i saw a bunch
of people join so close so close no um all right we're gonna get this moving i'm gonna go ahead
pin this up on top for everybody wait why can't i pin it up on top? Oh, right. Wait, that's confusing. Hold on.
I'm supposed to be able to do it as a speaker.
Oh, wait, I can, but they moved it.
Oh, okay.
That's weird.
You know, X will, they'll introduce like new features, but they won't fix the existing feature.
That's crazy work.
All right.
Top of the Jumbotron, click through or bottom of your hand corner click through there repost comment and bookmark we're gonna go ahead and get a nice song going and get
this moving let's play it in
i don't really do it i dab dabble, too chill, way too casual
Goin' up, swing, no paddle, nah, price goin' up, don't haggle
I'm a natural, I just
No I in team, but there's two in winning
Pick a lil' freestyle, but I ain't swimmin'
Eyes on me while I dive right in it
Everything I do a big plus like Switz
Okay, I'm gone a couple minutes, I'm back and I'll pick it up again.
Set the bar, they wanted to touch it, they need an oven mitts.
Got a dub and doubled it, baby, I'm working double shifts.
Going to the dumb on these drums, I'm a percussionist.
Dibble, dibble, dab, triple bass, why I take the math?
Dribble, dribble, pass, I don't miss.
Everything is cash, missile, missile crash on the track.
It's a different blast, giggle, giggle, laugh.
I die, y'all are sick and wack.
Stop it, wait, I miss you, my shot. the tracks it's a different blast go go go laugh y'all are sick and what I don't
really do it I don't feel it I don't feel it too casual going up, y'all haggle, I'm a natural I just dabble
Too chill, way too casual
Going upstream, no paddle
Price going up, y'all haggle, I'm a natural
Okay, was dabbling with it until I actually did it
Guess I'm too passionate with it, I started passing on with it
Oh, like my birthday's on Christmas, I'm massively gifted
I guess the flow in Orlando, the magic was in it
Just feeling timeless, classic, fluid.
Serving the masters, mastered it the fairway,
rock a green jacket, hit the finish line, ran past it,
lapped it, yes, I really am who I see.
Bigger name, bigger price.
I'm gonna need a bigger bag, little taste, little bite.
They never send it back, entertain, every night.
That's why they get attached.
They've improved, the loop, don't really do it I'd have one ain't no paddle price going up
you know how you could just listen to a song for like all day that's one of these songs for me i could just have that on repeat all day and just like just let it go right uh but nonetheless we do have a space to run obviously
so with that being said bottom of my hand corner repost comment and bookmark and then we're gonna
go ahead and check in with everybody here up on the panel as per the usual um and just see how everybody's doing and then we'll get
started into the discussion talking about attention it's the ultimate asset um we're
monetizing it in every single way um it's never been more creatively monetized than ever
than it has been in the last five seven years probably more so in the last three to five years if we're
being honest but hey plenty plenty to go through plenty to talk about before we get into all that
let's check in with the brave team jenny how we doing today hey yo i'm so good it's a beautiful
day it's friday um we just turned into a sausage temporarily a nobody sausage
um so it's exciting it's an exciting day yeah how are you i'm not gonna lie out of context
without saying the nobody sausage's brand name i would have been so confused. I would have been like, what NFT collection is this?
Well, our beautiful PFP is pinned to the space,
so you can certainly see that it's a nobody's office.
No, I love their videos.
They show up every once in a while on my Instagram.
So it's always cool to see his IP make its way over to Web3, really.
Yeah, actually, one of my—sorry to interrupt you. So it's always cool to see his IP make its way over to Web3, really. Yeah.
Actually, one of my favorites, sorry to interrupt you.
I first encountered them a couple years ago on Instagram when I was, like, deep in season two of The White Lotus.
They made, like, a really funny video about, like, two of their little sausage characters, reacting to watching the white lotus and reacting
to the theme song and it just gets like progressively crazier as the video goes on it's so
funny i'll see if i can find it i'll tweet and i'll pin it but it's a good one it's a good one
y'all should go follow them on tiktok yes yes um it is it is so funny because i never can tell
where they came out of or where they originated out of
and i'm sure nowadays is mostly out of tiktok which probably speaks to my boomer my boomer age
because i'm totally consumer wise i'm totally an instagram maxi a hundred percent um creator wise obviously i'm here i love twitter right tiktok i just it's just too addicting so i
i have to like stay out of it just so i can be productive functioning member of society
otherwise i just end up into the brain rot trap that everyone else falls into. But it's funny because if it goes
viral enough on TikTok, it'll go
to Instagram. And if it goes viral
enough on Instagram, it'll go to Twitter.
And then sometimes it'll just go straight
from Twitter,
straight to Twitter from TikTok and vice versa.
And Twitter posts
will make its way onto Instagram
and TikTok. So it's just like this
vicious cycle of emotions
that we're going through. And then, if you're
really viral, like
really stupidly
viral, you'll make it onto Facebook
of all fucking places.
And the boomers would be like, you know,
have you seen this? And it's
like, yeah, it's three months old,
grandma. But I'm really glad it's made
his way to you, naturally. So yeah three months old, Grandma. But I'm really glad it's made its way to you, naturally.
So, yeah.
Shout out to Grandma.
But no, look.
We love nobody's sausage.
We love sausages.
Just in general.
Unless you don't like sausages, then I think you're weird because I'm Italian.
And it's a cultural staple in our entire culture.
How do you feel like in our entire country?
No, no, no.
That's weird.
Anyway, let's check in with Paula.
Paula, how are we doing today?
Hi, everyone.
Hi, Sansa.
It's nice to be here for another space.
I'm doing very good.
It's Independence Day in Costa Rica on Monday,
so everyone is getting ready for, you know, the celebrations and the parades, and I can't wait to go to a, you know, to a traditional restaurant and order some traditional Costa Rican food.
traditional costa rican food so i'm very i'm very excited about that
yeah yeah i am i can i'm excited for you i love good costa rican food um what's your favorite
one what's your favorite dish so here's the problem here's the thing i not only do i not
remember what i ate i just remember the feeling you. You know, I'm very sentimental like that, right?
My body and my brain's like, look, we can't remember everything.
But we promise you'll remember the feeling, right?
And then when I tell people shit like, I love Costa Rican food.
And they ask me something like, what's your favorite?
I can't answer that.
All I can say is is i felt good eating
costa rican food and i felt i felt especially good drinking costa rican coffee and let me tell
you something i could drink that thing at 5 p.m and have a beautiful uh beautiful nice sleep
right um so i i need i need that uh genuine costa rica coffin but yeah no
I need that genuine
Costa Rica coffin. But yeah, no.
So the tricky part was that
it was at a retreat resort that
is now closed. I don't know
what that says about the resort, but
back
then, it was like
five years ago, but back
then, it was really
good. It was really fun.
They made everything in-house,
but it was obviously from Costa Rica. So I just, they were was really fun. They made everything in-house, but it was obviously from
Costa Rica.
They were just making everything. They were just
cooking everything. They were macro-friendly.
It was a fitness
retreat.
And we
got fit.
I got humbled, and I ate good food,
and I drank good coffee.
I mean, the only thing i didn't like
about it was when the drive yeah they and the fact that the the taxi popped a tire on the way to the
resort so instead of taking four hours to get there it took us eight hours to get there which
was crazy work um landed at one supposed to be there four didn't get there till
nine so but but everything else was great everything else was great so um definitely
visit costa rica if you have a chance to maybe don't go to a place that's four hours away from
the airport unless you really really have to um but yeah yeah we love cost Rica. Might have to make it another visit.
You know, when my kids are old enough to...
Basically, when they're old enough for me to leave them in the dust.
So I can be like, come on! Hurry up!
Not like, let's go, little baby. Come on, come on, come on.
No, no, no.
They gotta be like, all of them gotta be like seven or eight.
But nonetheless, I'm excited for you.
Going to be great.
I can already feel all the euphoria of Costa Rica right now.
We got one more Brave team check-in.
Guy, how are we doing today?
You beautiful man.
Hey, hey, I can't complain about today.
How are you doing, sexy man?
Very nice to hear your voice again.
I don't know how to feel about basic attention token being a sausage, though.
And I don't have my hopes up for Crawford.
I have my money on Canelo, quite frankly.
I think HR is going to report us after this one.
I think HR is definitely going to report us after this one. I think HR is definitely going to report us after this one.
I think Jenny is already writing a strongly worded letter to HR as we are speaking.
She'll be like, we got to cut this off somewhere.
Got to cut this off to the legs.
So, yeah.
Jenny's not laughing.
So, I assume that she's actually writing a strongly worded letter, which, which does
make me a little bit nervous.
It's all platonic.
I swear.
Uh, but y'all look, look, let's keep checking in.
Let's keep checking in.
We got some peeps here.
Probably wondering what kind of space did I just walk into and why am I here right now?
Um, I don't know.
Why are you here?
Why?
Well, why are any of us here guys?
Really?
Why? What? What are we here for? let's check in let's go through the list
Let's check in with the panel
And guys as always to the listeners please
Give everyone a follow
They've taken time out of the day weeks in advance to be here
We always appreciate that
So let's start with KOLs with a Z
Not an S
KOLs how are we doing today
Good thanks and this has been the most interesting Space I've joined so far with KOLs with a Z, not an S, a Z. KOLs, how are we doing today?
Good, thanks.
And this has been the most interesting space I've joined so far, I have to say.
I love the intro music.
That was so exciting.
I wish all spaces would do that.
That was an awesome way to start.
I'm Claire Rennie.
I'm the CEO of Kohl's.
So a little bit about Kohl's.
We're creating AI agents for individuals,
brands, and KOLs to do automated posting.
So for individuals and brands, it's kind of to do automated posting. So for individuals and brands,
it's kind of like personal social media manager to create fresh content in your same tone of voice.
For KOLs, they can earn passive income through automated posting. Projects can save up to 80%
compared to traditional KOL fees. So excited to be here today, excited for this discussion and
to get to know all of the other speakers. So thanks so much for having me.
I appreciate you coming through.
And you know what?
I'm definitely taking the interesting feedback
with me to the bank.
Because there are some spaces out there today.
It's just, I'm just like, really?
This is what we're going with, guys?
Come on now.
So yeah, keep spaces interesting.
That's what it's all about.
So Jenny, Guy, Paula, I believe that means that I deserve a raise of my $1 a week.
So I would really appreciate it.
We could just, I don't know, like 100X it real quick.
That'd be great.
Fantastic.
Ah, 3VO!
Let's take it over to you.
Oh my God, my voice cracked in the middle of that.
What the fuck was that?
3VO, how we doing?
Hey, doing well. Doing well, thanks. my name's cory i work with 3vo um we're building a
decentralized marketplace and an ecosystem uh for uh communities and brands and creators uh and uh
yeah i like i like the topic uh i'm excited to participate. You know, we're, we're really focused on how can, you know,
creators grab attention in different new ways and monetize.
So we're using tokenization, AI agents,
gamified experiences and things like that. So yeah,
glad to be here and thank you for a trip down memory lane. One,
one of these days I'll tell you about how I learned to drive a stick in San
Jose.
That was an experience nonetheless.
But anyway, great to be here. Thanks for having me.
You know what I love?
Like, when people try to describe something without talking down on it because they still enjoyed it as a whole but
they don't you know they don't want to say like yeah driving stick and say jose was was pretty
shitty but otherwise everything else was great right so i try to read between the lines a little
bit of that um learning to drive was not the fun part i i learned to use a stick. Oh, it wasn't that bad.
Oh, my God.
That's insane.
I mean, hey, I mean, if not now, when, right?
If not then, then when were you ever going to learn stick?
Am I right?
I'm just kidding.
I'm never going to learn stick.
You know, I'm 100% automatic. You know, I get the whole, like, use both feet, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But you know what?
I'm fine. I'm fine. I'll just run i'll just i'll just run faster it's fine um anyway we got one more check-in axel let's check with you fam how we doing today
hey guys how are you doing i'm the CEO of Frigham and i've been shocked when i was listening at the
beginning Guillermo did you just say that you put your money on Canelo?
Really, man?
Listen, I've been boxing for quite some time now
and I can tell you Canelo only lost for speed,
which Crawford does not have.
I'm sorry, but I cannot fail to see.
Some people say Canelo is watched, but he's still the champion.
I cannot ignore this fact. It's all about numbers in the end and I see fail to see. Some people say Canelo is watched, but he's still the champion. I cannot ignore this fact.
It's all about numbers in the end, and I see them very clearly.
And Sunday night, we can talk about it.
When Canelo has got the W, it's just not a one in his record,
and Crawford has first hell.
We can talk that.
Yeah, yeah.
I'll DM you because I am 100% sure.
It's been like 13 years I started boxing.
So me too.
I think Canelo is very much more powerful, but he's less technical.
But let's talk later about that.
I feel like that's a little bit of a threat.
Like, see me outside after school at 4 p.m.
before dinner
because my mom picking me up at 4.30.
Catch you then.
Catch me outside.
You know?
Oh, my God.
That's such an American joke.
I hate myself for even making it.
I'm not going to lie to you guys.
Like, I wish I could say that, like, you know,
that was like, oh, this is a good joke it's not i just it's just the way i said it that made me that
made it better anyway let's get into it um i'm tired i'm tired of cracking jokes non-stop people
are gonna start thinking i'm a stand-up comedian for some reason uh look the the whole thing with
the attention is the ultimate asset right we We talked a lot about the attention economy,
talked a lot about what it brings, what it means for creators,
what it means for brands, what it means for,
and then everyone in between, right?
The middlemen of the agencies, the little bit of the interns,
the reply guys, and understanding kind of the psychology behind it, right?
For lack of a better way to say it.
Especially when we look at virality, when we look at that
this is the era of social media versus
now versus 20 years ago
where social media was
getting pushed by more
more so people
than it was getting pushed by an algorithm
right? Like, you know, going
viral then, going viral now
were two very different things
and it's almost become a little bit more
of a of a little bit of a in a an attention becoming the currency right for the becoming
viral right so if you're able to garner enough attention then you're you're pretty much have
gotten the science of going viral and it's a sort of like the, you know, you're just basically spending,
if there was any way that we could, I'm sure at some point we will,
is kind of spending your attention on certain things and vice versa, right?
And so what I want to ask is this,
and this is going to be a little bit of a tricky opening question,
I'll be honest, but it's, you know it's it's general and so let's start
with this how how do you or maybe so how would you define uh attention as an economic asset
and more importantly why do you guys think it matters now more than ever um so paula i love
i'd love to start this one off with you um I know you gotta get ready for Costa Rica Independence Day
You know so I wanna
Get you pepped up
And all excited to go
Sorry sorry sorry I'm excited for Independence Day
Now you know I might fly out to Costa Rica
Over the weekend Paula let's take it over to you
Thank you Sansa
I'm so sorry
It's so funny Well first of all thank you Over to you. Thank you, Sansa. I'm so sorry.
It's so funny.
Well, first of all, thank you.
This is a very good question.
And well, honestly, I think and well, I'm sure a lot of us do as well.
we all have right now, especially online.
But I think that attention is one of the most powerful assets we all have right now, especially online.
Like, you know, every second we spend online looking at something
or, you know, every click, it all counts.
And that's what keeps the whole digital economy moving.
And it feels like brands and creators are kind of, you know,
competing for that moment when we, you know, stop scrolling
and we actually pay attention which
you know to be honest it's getting harder and harder every day but that's mostly because of
all these platforms like you know TikTok and short videos like Reels um they are really
really affecting our attention span and it's a shame because I love TikTok. But ever since this got relevant and
viral, everything changed. Like, I do think that TikTok was kind of responsible for it. And the
worst part is that now we are able to modify the speed on the video. That's crazy. So I mean,
if you think about, you know, convenience, of course, it's great because you're saving time.
But if you really think about things like, you know, the damage or, you know, why do we have the need to speed up information?
Like, we're not even watching the whole video because we scroll as soon as we lose interest.
And on top of that, we can't wait to finish as soon as possible.
That's just just you know
messed up but anyways I know I went a bit off topic but I feel like it's all like connected
either way but going back to the to the actual question there's just I think there's just you
know much going on right now and our attention matters so much. I don't think we really understand the
importance and the value of our attention to the point of, just like you said earlier,
you know, it's, it has become kind of like a currency. Um, and you know, again, like I said,
if we get it even for like a small moment, it has real value. And that's why companies spend so much on ads and, you know, why, sorry, and why even
creators see their audience as their income.
And, you know, Brave came to change that because instead of just taking our attention for free,
it actually rewards us for it, as it should be. Because attention,
it's something we, you know, it's something we choose to give. And, you know, for me now,
it's like key for everything online. And if we understand its value, I think the web could be
fair and really, really, excuse me, user first. Oh my God. I'm sorry.
I'm going to drink a little bit of water. Sorry. Excuse me one second.
It's okay. It's okay. Independence day's got, you know, you're, you're all euphoria is all
time. Hi, you know, you're, you're ready. You're ready to pound two coffees back to
back so you could stay up the whole entire day through the night and just keep
on partying no i'm just kidding uh paul back over to you if you want to finish it up yeah i'm so
sorry it's the allergies in the morning i get super allergic in the morning i know it's 11 well
it's 11 30 almost 11 30 a.m here in costa rica but still i get super allergic but yeah no i was gonna say that um i think we as users we are the main characters
in this ecosystem and so we should be you know everyone we should focus on that but yeah that's
my thought well said well said and i would also love to extend this question to the rest of the
panel as well for anyone that wants to shoot their hand up and before anyone doesn't shoot their hand up i am going to pick at least one sacrifice at the very
least per question so you can choose to be the sacrifice on your own terms or i'm going to be a
high school teacher that you hated while you sat in the back of the classroom scribbling on your
desks um that you weren't a lot to scribble on and that you probably will get detention for
in order to scrub off the desk later.
At least back in my day, that's how we did it.
I don't know how they do it now. They probably just talk about the people
from the late 1900s talking about this.
Kara Wells, let's take it over to you.
What do you got? I definitely don't
want to get detention, so I'm happy to answer.
I think
attention is more powerful than ever
kind of relating to what Paula said
especially being able to keep the attention because it's just so hard to get in the first
place I think right now there's just so much noise and chaos right right now in the space
and everyone is fighting to grab an audience even if it's just for a day the price of attention has
just never been higher and holding it feels I I think, impossible for a lot of people. I think it's that scarcity which makes it that real economic asset that brands and creators can literally turn sustained attention into revenue partnerships and their kind of overall influence in the space.
A single moment or a single post can spark that initial interest.
moment or a single post can spark that initial interest but the ability to hold people's focus
long term is what builds kind of that trust overall and that lasting growth that so many
projects are looking for so i think that's why creators can charge the crazy premium rates that
they are charging to share their space to do a post about you but to overall build that trust
and give you that kind of initial bump that everyone's looking for?
A lot of it is really built on trust, right?
It's really, it almost feels like it's a little bit more along the side of the,
I feel like trust is sort of the streamline to the attention as a currency, right? As a sort of that economic asset a little bit, right?
It's what we would call crypto rail
for people to onboard people into crypto a little bit, right?
Kind of in that same analogy.
But, Revio, you got your hand up.
Let's take it over to you.
Yes, thanks.
I, too, did not want to get called on.
Yeah, I agree with the panelists.
You know, it's wild
i was just reading some numbers right like the average screen time our attention span has dropped
to like eight eight and a quarter seconds even though you know screen time has hit record hides
that's just that's just wild to me um but anyway um again an agreement like attention is something
that like if you're capturing it then then everyone
else is not you know like if if you're able to capture that attention it is scarce and it is
singular right uh per person and and that means everyone else is not getting that attention so it
is it is extremely valuable um and so but i i really like what you said about trust because
that's kind of where i was going to go with it. You know, we're focused on instead of forcing ads onto your feed, right, we're doing things where you participate in campaigns and all these other things that are set up by the creator.
So, you know, the people who are actually participating do get rewarded.
And they kind of, you know, so you earn that attention, right, and you get to choose where you put it.
So that's kind of the route we're taking. But, yeah, it's, I mean, I'm with you. I don't
like TikTok. Every time I get on, I'm like, where's my dopamine? I need to go touch some
grass. And, uh, but it is interesting. And I really like what brave doing as well. Um,
you know, so I'm excited to see where this goes, uh, in the next couple of years.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, apparently next year, TikTok is supposed to be starting a separate social media site called M2.
And I'm not so sure who is in charge of naming the modern day social media platforms.
modern day social media platforms.
But what I can say for sure
is that they should be fired immediately with haste.
They should be fired so fast
that they can't even take their office belongings
with them back home, okay?
Who in the world were proudly...
I mean, look, I can't talk because i'm not i'm never gonna say
oh i'm an ex-influencer people are gonna be like oh so you do porn and be like no it's twitter
it's and then it's even worse because everyone looks at twitter as like the red-headed stepchild
of social media platforms so you don't even want to say oh yeah i'm i'm a twitter like thought leader kol influencer
whatever you know cringe leader you know i'm just like yeah i just talk for a living oh where do you
talk for a living don't worry about it i just talk people hire me i talk and that's it you know
that's about as far as it goes um i also had trouble uploading a video on here and i and i accidentally googled x video uploader
don't need to tell you where that took me so never doing that again none of this is googleable
literally none of this like can we just like did elon think about any of that of course not
of course not or maybe he did maybe that's the whole point anyway enough of my rant let's let's uh let's take it
over to the next question shall we um with that being said with that being said i i do i do want
to kind of like bring this a little bit more to when we look at uh ad revenue right um with with
ad revenue kind of doubling and we're seeing gen z buying through social platforms, right? I mean, I don't know about you guys.
I've seen a lot of people do solely through TikTok.
I've heard a lot more of people saying, oh, I thought this product would be better.
And I'm like, where'd you buy it from?
And they're like, TikTok.
And I'm like, well, that's your problem right there.
You bought it through TikTok.
That's what's mattered with you.
No, I'm just kidding.
That's a joke.
That's a boomer joke more than anything else.
But more importantly, we see ad revenue doubling gen z is buying through
social platforms do we think that attention is becoming a form of currency more than just
digital real estate right i feel like i feel like that's kind of like a little bit of a thought
there um gee if you don't mind i'd love to start this one with you and then axel and kOLs I'm gonna come to you guys right after if that's okay Guy let's take it over to you
fam what are you thinking in the way of comparison uh it's something that is hard to measure uh
without entering speculatives um however when it comes to concerning if it is a form of currency
I would say so it has been been for many, many years.
It's one of the main reasons why Brave formed in 2016.
There was a big monopoly between the two main digital advertisers that were Facebook and Google
that were leading a trillion-dollar industry
on their own, just exploiting users.
And now we're providing an opportunity for them, users,
to seek a solution that is respecting their privacy and at the same time respecting their time and their attention where it's just not entirely evasive.
I was looking at some numbers and we just discussed this in the prior question, but the digital advertisement industry is an $800 billion industry. This is classified by 2024.
And I was looking to TikTok and TikTok is worth well above $15 billion,
$50 billion.
So this just comes to show
that there's a lot of money that is being deposited
and the direct currency that is being exchanged for this
and that is making up these numbers
has to be users attention.
And whenever we discuss this topic, I like to refer back to Dan Murphy's paper
on the attention economy, where he states that you can always make more money,
but you can never make more time.
So I believe this is one of the most valuable assets that we have found
within the past couple of years.
And now it's, of course, like a gold rush,
trying to achieve as much attention from the users as possible.
And now I got to do a little chill for Brave
because I started as a user,
was very passionate about this project
and eventually led me to a job in this company.
But I am very passionate about what Brave is doing,
like many other companies,
but seeking to have digital advertisement in a way that does not get in the way
of your content, does not disturb your attention, and is opt-in,
seems to be the best way to have the situation evaluated.
So getting it short, is this a new form of currency?
Absolutely. Is it more than just digital real estate?
Very, very likely.
I mean, it's probably the most valuable asset that we have on our hands.
And you know what?
You know what it is?
It's always the best sort of like when team members, when people are coming together are the ones that genuinely
started with the product because they liked it not because not because they were short of i don't
want to say force or uh but just more so on the side of like you know just just hire to kind of
talk about it and so on so forth versus the community member that came into it naturally
that have the passion for it i don't know there's just something about that that beats kind of
everything else so i love i love that mix uh but we got two hands up i'm pretty sure
axel has his hand up first so let's take it over to axel and then kol is coming to you right after
axel what do you got yeah uh so about uh attention if uh it's uh becoming a form of currency more than digital real estate.
I do believe it's been actually a long time,
way before TikTok, actually.
It's a currency, you know.
If you have ever done Facebook ads,
you will see that you, I mean,
there is a different way to bid on the website,
but you are basically paying to be exposed, you know, so to be not exposed, sorry,
this is French, to be shown, you know,
by impression or per conversion,
depending on the goal of your campaign.
But you always have this metric, for example,
CPM cost per mile which shows basically like how much you
know 1,000 impressions 1,000 views if you prefer cost you know so yeah I do believe it's not new
back then if we go you know in the 20th century it was more for newspaper and you could also make
ads on newspaper just now it's on social media and you have two way of doing it right you have
the paid way so you can sponsor you can do some ads etc or you have the the organic way and i do believe that there is more and more
tiredness from ads so we can see that like the biggest brands nowadays especially in food
are launched by creators like logan paul for example i think he's one of the best example of
it even if prime cells are going down but they made the one of the biggest
lunch in history and we can see that nowadays especially in USA that the
youtubers are creating their own brand whether it's chocolate, drink, candy bars, etc., beers.
So I do believe that once you get this attention, you get the money almost automatically.
You just have to get your attention in the smart way.
Drama doesn't always make money, but it can.
That's a good point.
I think it always feels like it comes down to
a matter of ethics and morals
and it always feels like
I don't know
it's like a one-sided
conversation a little bit
3VR just thumbs down the fuck
Adam and he's like
no, you're a deadass
trust me
I learned how to drive stick in Costa Rica.
I know what I'm talking about.
So you were very wrong.
No, in all seriousness, 3PO, what are your thoughts?
I was thumbs down morals.
Not you.
Yeah, no, I agree.
I feel like I skipped someone.
But, yeah, I mean, this is what we're trying to do with our platform, platform is combine everything, right? You have your social wallet and you have your smart profile. And then, you know, what you sell, you can create on these profiles. You can have merch shops. You can have, you know, your content. You can token gate things. You can launch your own token. Basically, we call it creating your own economy, right? And you can do it all in one platform. So that's kind of, that's the angle we're taking, right?
Because attention is currency and enabling creators to sell and distribute and monetize, you know, how they want.
That's kind of the goal here.
So we're trying to provide as many tools as possible.
It's a little bit more hands-on.
You know, I think Brave and what we're trying to do, I wouldn't say two sides of the same coin because there's many sides, but similar goals, empowering creators and then delivering the most value to their communities.
That's kind of the goal.
So we're trying to bridge all that together on one platform.
Sounds like a big task, but I think we're trying to bridge all that together on one platform.
Sounds like a big task, but I think we're doing it quite well so far,
and we're excited to see where it takes us.
But, yeah, I definitely think it extends past just digital, right?
And hopefully we'll be able to provide the tools for people to do that.
So we're excited.
Good point.
And also, you were right. We did skip over someone.
KOLs, please accept my apologies. I'm so sorry. Let's take it over to you. What are some thoughts?
Thank you so much. I was worried that you forgot about me. Yeah, I totally agree with everyone else. I think attention is definitely already a currency. We can see. So obviously it's moving markets, it's driving sales. I think we see it in both heavily in web two and web three,
that influencers, they post about a product, it sells out instantly or in web three,
they're promoting a token and the price skyrockets. I think like you mentioned earlier,
we're kind of sadly moving away from Googling reviews and products like we used to before to making our purchases
through TikTok. So whether that's fashion, personal items, travel products, or investments
like searching which coin will next 10x. I think Gen Z kind of treats social feeds like a storefront.
So if you're able to win their attention, you're essentially getting their sale.
I think kind of with Web3 and AI projects
rely heavily on mindshare. So tokens, NFT drops, new launches, the attention will essentially decide
their success. Even smart followers we're seeing now, I feel like that's such a trendy topic right
now with smart followers only having 2k or so, but they're really focused followers and they can
charge for simply following an account or engaging.
So we're kind of moving away from not just the big names, making thousands per post anymore, but really anyone who can hold an audience can also profit now.
And I think it's also no longer about just buying ads or social posts.
But again, like we talked about earlier, earning that trust with the audiences that many of us can't relate to.
I know I might sound young,
but I'm not a Gen Z. And even I struggled to know what's cool to them. I see through my younger
friends how fast something can be labeled as cringe, which apparently is like death for the
brand, or how quickly something can be labeled as cool and trendy. And then that essentially
explodes with attention. So at K Kohl's we kind of recognize that
and we're helping brands kind of work that every angle of attention not just single posts
but helping them shape that cool trendy narrative partnering with the KOLs to promote the projects
having KOLs and smart followers follow the accounts to add that layer of authenticity
having high quality mutual followers I think makes an account just feel
more legit and relatable. I know I feel like that when I check out someone's account and I see
we have mutual followers, it makes me more inclined to trust them and follow them.
So I think we notice when an account is, of course, just fluffing the numbers,
but having those strong mutual connections helps build that extra layer of trust,
helps the message resonate, getting real mindsh and i think attention isn't just about a
single post anymore but again how you kind of spark that interest and then convince the audience
to stay through all of those other layers that's my long answer there thanks yeah no it's a good
point and it's um first of all well first thing i wanted to say was that
i obviously i'm here right web3 we're all surrounded by mostly younger people gen z and
and probably gen alpha in some instances um i don't even want to think about that so i'm just
gonna i'm just gonna stick with gen z right now uh but but more importantly my wife and i will be
talking and i'll and i'll just say some stuff in a certain way and i i can't even think of an example I'm just going to stick with Gen Z right now. But more importantly, my wife and I will be talking,
and I'll just say some stuff in a certain way.
And I can't even think of an example.
Again, this is one of these moments where I just remember the feeling,
not the exact thing that happened.
And she'll, but I do remember her response.
She'll be like, what did you just say?
And I'm like, did I say something wrong?
And she'll be like, I don't understand what that means.
And then I realized that she works with people that are millennials and older.
I'm like, oh, so this is the difference.
It's the workplace.
It's all about the workplace.
So make, you know,
I guess just keep that in mind to your spouse.
You know, you might have to translate a couple things.
Like, chat, am I cooked?
You got to be like, that means, you know, am I wrong?
Am I right?
Could I be this?
Could I be that?
It's a very extreme way.
I'm like breaking this down.
I'm like, oh my God, this is crazy.
I'm so cringe.
Thankfully, thankfully, I still don't understand skibbity.
So I have no idea how to use that in a sentence.
And I never will solely because I don't want to sound like a brain rot, you know, member of society.
But more importantly, I did want to get to get into um nope nope lost my train of
thought see this is what happens when you hang out with goldfish this is what happens when you
hang i this is why sometimes when i like i have two things i might have to pick one um but but
i just know that i basically agree with with.O. Wells here, and I was going to emphasize something that she already said.
But nonetheless, I do want to remind the listeners real quick,
we still have about 15 minutes left.
If you guys have any questions,
feel free to throw your questions in the comment section and ask me.
All I want to remind you of and let you know
is that I'm not your college professor or your high school teacher.
I'm not grading an essay.
Just do one or two sentences of a question,
tag me, and I'll ask it.
As long as it's relevant to the discussion,
don't ask me what Jenny's favorite pizza is.
We're not talking about pizza.
We all know her favorite
pizza is Hawaii.
It just has to be the right balance of
pineapple and ham. That's all.
It can't just be
overly wet pineapple. It just doesn't work. right balance of pineapple and ham. That's all, okay? It can't just be overly wet pineapple.
It just doesn't work.
It throws off the whole balance, okay?
Trust me.
I know Jenny.
So with that being said,
just ask the question in the comment sessions.
We still got a solid 15 minutes left
before we start wrapping this up.
So just a heads up on that.
But more importantly,
another kind of thought that has come up is kind of a, or another meta, I should say, are AI agents, right?
They're here in almost every capacity.
We're dealing with them in customer service, even if we don't know it yet.
You think you're talking to Bob from Minnesota.
Wrong. wrong you're talking to some some bot uh that's that's born out of like freaking uh i don't even
know what or where they do business out of now anymore uh india you know it's like it's all it's
all this other stuff so um as we see ai agents increasingly shapes kind of what what grabs our
attention because they're also i mean we we see see Elon talking about how he wants to make the
algorithm completely AI
and so that it can improve on its own
faster, better, stronger
and optimize itself and so on and so forth
that means
AI is going to shape our attention, going to shape
the narrative and so
and on a little bit
more mild note here
it shapes the ads we're getting shown it
you know there's obviously we we've had this talk plenty of times talking about privacy talking about
data collection and how you know it's it's just kind of one of these things that we've just
accepted and it's just more about you know um how we how we share certain things and and going and
and looking into products that are much more privacy friendly.
Again,
like brave.
Hold on.
Wait,
wait,
wait,
wait,
wait,
wait,
wait,
wait,
wait,
wait.
Brave is your privacy friendly browser.
We will keep all your dirty secrets safe.
Sign up for brave today.
Thank you very much.
I mean,
it's,
it's,
it's phenomenal work.
Really phenomenal work.
Um, no brave didn't pay me for that. They should they're not going to and that's okay because i love brave
anyway uh they they haven't fired me after a year and a half of this foolishness so i can only
return the favor by giving them an a top s tier uh ad just like that. Um, but no, in all seriousness, um,
what I want to ask here is that as a,
as AI agents increasingly shape what grabs our attention,
how do we ensure that the ads remain user first and not manipulative,
you know,
like manipulating us in any way or any shape and form key.
I love to throw this one over to you.
And then the guests I'm coming to you guys right after.
And then after that,
we're going to closing questions.
Gee,
what do you got?
I got to say AI agents in customer services.
Stop it.
I don't like it.
I don't want it.
I don't think there's a place for them.
It annoys the heck out of me.
Please stop it.
I don't want to call like post office and having
to talk to an ai agent please dial one please dial one if you want a human representative
but before you can get there we're going to present 20 different options to you that you're
going to say no to because the zero button does not work anymore yeah and it takes like 20 minutes
of my time just answering no and asking like trying to take the time until it reaches eventually the option that says,
I want to talk to a real person and it annoys the heck out of me.
Please stop.
I don't think there's a place for them in customer services.
I don't think that level will be.
So stop it.
It's not efficient.
Anyhow, back to the question.
Will AI agents like Fight for Mario Attention,
will they be what leads uh the attention onwards um
they probably have the most efficient way of grabbing attention because we have realized
through people like mr beast who have really optimized the algorithms understand what people
enjoy watching that that is something that can be manipulated and reproduced time and time again
so if a human can predict that and can control that, then of course,
an algorithm will be more than able to optimize it in a way that will just,
you know, be more cost efficient and more optimized.
So short answer is I believe so, but I don't think that's what I'd like for my future.
Quite frankly, we're still yet to see the consequences that this will have
on the developing brain, especially on younger generations,
which I don't think will be very positive.
I remember a study from 2013 that was trying to understand
medium to short-term effects of social media usage
on developing brains, and it wasn't very good results
that they had to show.
So now scaling that to a bigger scale and just having more time being used directly on these apps,
and for even younger generations, I assume that it's not going to be or yield the best results.
So I don't have much of a positive answer for this question.
I think that they will be very efficient on manipulating what we see on
media altogether.
And I'm not very happy with it.
That's my short answer.
I mean, are we really ever going to be happy with any of Vicky?
You know?
If they keep the customer services, we're talking to a real person.
I'll be happy to just talk to Max or whoever.
I just want to know where our package is.
You know what it is?
You know what it is?
I feel like right now we're still
in this awkward transition phase
where it's still
too expensive to fully
go in on a
much smoother online service
versus using an AI agent for as like an answering service
versus like paying a human to do it vice versa right so it's like it's this awkward phase where
we just kind of have to wait for things to get cheaper in a way that like okay cool it only is
actually only a hundred dollars more to the better, smoother online service that people
are going to do anyway versus calling us, right? Because I don't call unless I really absolutely
have to. It's not because I don't want to talk to anyone. It's just like, I can do it online,
and I can just multitask and throw that into the mix. I'm going to do that, right?
So I don't know. I just feel like society-wide,
we're still in this awkward transition phase
with, like, business, individual-wise,
and so on and so forth.
But I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I'm more upset that zero button hack is gone
for some of them, right?
I get so mad when I post zero,
and they're like that entry
Is not eligible
Or whatever
I'm just like oh yeah
How about I throw my phone against the wall
Is that eligible
So I swear to god
I don't have temper problems
But what I do have
Is nine minutes left
And we do have one more question to go
And in which case
we get to hear Jenny speak.
I know she spoke at the beginning
of the spaces, all that.
But Jenny gets to
chill out even longer because K.A.
Wells came in with her hand up.
K.A. Wells, what do you got?
We're always happy to put our
hand up. I also still try
spamming zero whenever i get frustrated
it works like 20 percent of the time um i think uh transparency and authenticity definitely
building trust i think there's of course so many bot accounts out there but beyond the bots the
amount of fake accounts pretending to be someone they're not like a female crypto account run by
a man overseas uh personally I've had a few meetings
where I'm expecting this beautiful woman
to show up to the meeting
and it is an incredibly different voice behind the camera.
So that's always entertaining.
But I think AI is making it definitely harder
and harder to spot the scammers right away
with all of the amazing image and video tools,
voice tools, posting tools.
But obviously if you pay attention,
you can still tell over time. But I think it more comes down to intent. So if AI is still being able
to add real value to people's feeds, then personally, I think that's great. If it's being
used to scam or mislead people, then that's the problem. Like any powerful tool, I think AI can be used for good or it can be abused.
So at Kohl's, we're doing the AI agents. We're working closely with individual brand, the KOLs,
to create the automated posts, but we emphasize transparency. So we're fully transparent that the
posts are automated, but come from the real KOLs account, who is a real person. These aren't fake
people. They are authentically trained on
their voice, their opinions. It's just saving some time by automating the posts. The KOL chooses
which projects to support. The project knows it's a real KOL, that it will be an automated post.
Nothing is hidden or manipulative. It's just saving the time and money. So I think this is
the direction that we're going to be heading in over the next couple years
seeing more and more automated posts ai agents but i just hope that others prioritize the
transparency as well and that they kind of emphasize that rather than the manipulation factor
what's that what's that let's take it over to 3vo real quick because i know we got a little
bit less time left but 3vo let's take it over to 3VO real quick because I know we got a little bit less time left. But 3VO, let's take it over to you.
I'll be quick.
I agree with everything that Coles is saying about radical transparency.
One of the things that we're incorporating, right, will be being able to know how the algorithm is working and being able to reset it, you know, to try to be as transparent as possible.
You know, this was based.
This was given to you based on your algorithm, et cetera,
click here to change, whatever.
But one of the other things, and again,
kind of like Coles was talking about,
we're doing AI avatars, right?
But they're only based on the exact creator and they're created by that creator.
You can't duplicate or replicate it.
And everything that comes out of it is is verified
so it's just it's a different way to to trust um but but trust does go a long way right um so it
it'll be interesting to see you know my uh and then just a side note personally my my least
favorite ai is the the voiceover scripts on videos and they just get the words wrong or like they
spell it wrong and i'm like come on come on man anyway uh it'll be interesting to see uh as ai agents uh get more and more popular
i mean look it's gonna reach a point where we don't even know that we're talking to an ai agent
unless there's like a secret sleeper command cell thing that we we have to say out loud in
a very specific way in order for them to like
reveal themselves or whatever. You know, it's going to be like, Bob, reveal yourself. I'm like, ah,
hello, I am AI. I'm like, I knew it. I knew it. The last two hours was just a lie.
Am I really getting my refund, Bob? You know? Anyway, there's a movie in there somewhere.
Anyhow, Jetty, I love to throw the closing question your way.
And it's fitting because you'll probably be the one with the closing thoughts as well.
As well as the closing pitch for Brave.
The browser for all your dirty secrets to be stored.
Sorry. Maybe I should change the phrase dirty secrets to be stored. Sorry.
Maybe I should change the phrase dirty secrets.
Kind of make it sound like crime a little bit.
Anyway, look, if attention is now the greatest asset, what's the one feature or policy that, you know, Brave should or has already implemented to lead eth lead ethically in, in the space that we're in.
Have you ever thought about going into acting Sansa?
Your performances are just Leo DiCaprio.
Oh my gosh.
You make me crack up so much.
I love you.
Okay. Let's answer the question. Okay. You asked if attention
is now the greatest asset, what's the one feature or policy that Brave should implement to lead
ethically in this space? I would say the answer is to double down on what Brave already does best.
That is to say, expanding the ways our users can actively benefit from their attention.
Our token, the basic attention token, is essentially a measure of attention.
Your earned bat literally represents your attention spent.
So right now, our users can earn BAT for seeing privacy respecting ads in their
Brave browsers. That's been true for many years, but we're also exploring new ways to reward that
attention. We're looking at quests and surveys and beta testing opportunities and multipliers on
earnings and a lot more other things that are outlined in our That Roadmap 3.0.
In addition, users can already take their bat to support their favorite creators on platforms like YouTube and Twitch and X and Vimeo and Reddit,
but we're pushing to expand that list while also creating new ways to connect
with and reward creators directly.
And also through our Reward 3.0 Partner Program,
which the team here has been heavily focused on
for the past several months,
we're building out more practical ways to allow users to spend their bat.
We're looking at doing special limited edition collectibles and
merch collabs and other more practical e-commerce opportunities.
And essentially looking for ways to give users an even greater return than, you know, the face value
of their bat would suggest. And I think that our guiding principle, going back to the question,
is simple and has always been simple. And it's that users must stay in control always.
Their attention should work for them, never work against them. And for our part, we'll keep
encouraging people to be intentional about where they spend their attention and also totally clear
about what they're getting back. And that all requires radical transparency quote unquote from rn2
like 3bo was saying i like the term um side note i just got back from burning man and a lot of the
core principles are radical radical self-reliance and radical self-expression and so forth um i like
being radical and i think in in in some sense it's the only way to be well first of all
fantastic fantastic answer
and to answer your question
I have been told
that I would do great as acting
and as well as a stand up comedian
more inclined to do stand up comedy
than I am acting
I'm not going to lie
acting requires a little bit putting on a phase, remembering lines and all that.
And honestly, I think I'm too brainwrited for that nowadays.
So maybe back in my day, back in my prime, I might have been able to.
You'd probably be real good at improv.
You'd be real good at improv.
Yeah, you know what, though?
I think I'd be too good that my family would
probably hate how often i go to improv that i probably shouldn't do that no but uh but no
jenny first of all um i just want to say really quick thank you guys for tolerating me as the host
today and i want to give the mic to jenny for closing thoughts before i play this out but more
importantly to the listeners if you haven't already, please
give everyone up here a follow.
Everyone. I would say even
go follow Jenny's personal profile, but
it's not here up on stage. Just
go find it. Just go search Jenny.
You'll find her somewhere, somehow.
So yeah, give everyone up here
a follow. I've been working with the Brave
team for well over a
year. Somehow they like me enough
to keep me around i'm convinced that if you're a good enough personality hire you are unfireable
so to all the personality hires out there you can do it you can do it anyway back over to you jenny
oh my god how do I end after that?
Sansa, you're the best.
We love you.
And thank you to everybody who came to the discussion today.
Thanks to our guests for, you know, the awesome contributions and input.
And thank you to everyone who took some time out of their day to listen to the discussion.
And same goes for the folks who may be listening to the recording later on.
Everybody, please throw
down some emoji reacts to show support for our panelists today. Follow everyone in the room that
you want to stay in touch with. And yeah, check out our pin posts on our profiles. We've got some
cool things going on this week, such as our little collab with Nobody Sausages. And with regards to
the Rewards 3.0 partner program that
i was mentioning earlier we should have a big update coming up next week so keep an eye on
our socials and on our blog and yeah with that i just want to wish everybody a wonderful weekend
take care everybody and we will see you next week play us out sonza let's go Go! It looks like a bread box. I got a couple millis sitting on my desktop. Stop waiting again. What?
What I'm serving need a hot plate.
Let it sit.
Yeah.
And it's selling like some hotcakes.
Let them spin.
Huh.
How you do it?
It does not make any sense.
It does not make any sense.
