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The Chain You Launch on Could Make or Break You!
Recorded: July 8, 2025 Duration: 1:00:51Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion, industry leaders announced new partnerships and project launches, including the game 'Reaper Actual' and the 'Conviction' event in Vietnam, while highlighting trends in player-run infrastructure and chain abstraction that are shaping the future of Web3.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Inside my lid, there's a rainbow Don't you, don't you, next to my throat
I rise from the dead, through the front of the throat
Show you, show you what you came from
What you came from
Show you, show you what you came from Thank you. I'm going to show you what you can do.
Inside my head there's a rainbow.
Game you, game you, this is my fault.
I've got something good from you.
Show you, show you what you came for.
What you came for.
Show you, show you what you came for. What you came for. What you came for. Yo, yo, yo GM, GM, welcome to
another episode
together with PewKast and
KJEN, guys, like we tweet the space
as usual, every Tuesday 10. Hong Kong time, 10 a.m. EST,
we bring you the hottest topic.
And so invite your friends in if you have been missing out the episodes
because it's been a while.
It's been a while.
We talk a lot, a lot about different stuff.
We started off talking about Web3 Gaming.
But now I think
the topic has been coming more and more interesting. So today we have lined up a bunch of great
speakers. I know some of you guys have joined before with FireFireTech, so I'm excited to
kind of get into it. But before we start, I obviously got to pass it over to the KJN
folks. Sadiq, are you there? Check, check.
Bro is not here. Bro,
please send a request button
so I will bring you up.
Guys, if you are a speaker, click
on the request. If not, I've been sending you
multiple times as well.
But let me see. Let me see.
Alright. Edith,
check, check. How are you doing?
Hey, man. Hey, I'm doing well. How are you?
I'm good, bro. I'm good.
Before we dive into the topic about the chains, you got to tell me,
like right now when you scan through a chain,
what is like something that as long as it's a category or something that,
you know, you don't like it, and then you'll be like, all you'd be like all right you know next skip well what is that one thing um if if i'm speaking too honestly then the two
things i look when i look at a chain is if it's an ebm chain uh then it's an immediate yes i'll
be like yeah the product is gonna work and if something is building on hyperliquid, because right now the hyperliquid ecosystem is pretty good.
So I just look at these two things.
I don't even get into the technicals until these two boxes take off for me.
All right. EVM and hyperliquid.
That is a good indicator.
All right. Let me check in with the other folks as well.
Andrew, how are you doing, buddy?
Bro, I'm tired.
GM, this is the real GM.
7 a.m., right?
Andrew, you there?
Bro, did you just say you're tired and then you rock the space?
Dude.
Alright.
Yeah, he's like, alright.
I gotta show up for puke.
Once he shows up, he's like,
bro, I'm tired.
Alright, let me pass it.
If you guys have technicalities
coming onto the spaces,
no worries.
All you gotta do is
quit the space,
restart your phone, join up, and I'll bring you up. Okay, Vlad, go ahead. No worries. All you got to do is quit the space, restart your phone,
join up,
and I'll bring you up.
Okay, Vlad,
go ahead.
Yo, yo, yo,
my man.
It's been quite a minute.
Thank you so much for having me.
How's it going?
Good, bro, good.
Like,
love to get, you know,
a kind of like
a quick answer
from you.
What's something that, you know, either make it or break answer from you? What's something that...
Either you make it or break it for you?
You know, before you choose what you like,
before you choose the one and only chain
that is the most bullish ever case for me,
it's obviously easier to say
what's certainly bearish for me.
And I just came out from ETHCANTS.
That was the huge ride for Ethereum fund base
for all the builders right there.
And I can definitely tell you that, you know,
all these new chains, like we are seeing Hyperliquid,
we're seeing a lot of stuff happening on Sui,
we're seeing some massive, you know,
takeovers by the new generational chains.
But when you analyze the chains like Ethereum,
if you're institutional, probably there is a case for you to get in there.
But if you're not, I mean, it's very hard to build in the ecosystems
that are extremely mature.
So you're not getting noticed if you're a builder.
But if you're getting into something new hey you know what there is a huge leverage for you all right got it thank you so
much uh yep andrew you're back what's up all right dude i'm gonna give you the spicy take ready
so number one thing i'm looking at right now i'm looking at revenue right um and obviously And obviously, this stuff can be manipulated, you shouldn't always trust the numbers. But like, it starts to give you a much better picture of like where the activity is, right? So just to give folks a little bit of like a look under the hood, you know, on a 30 day basis, Tron's pulling in about $53 million right now.
16 million Solana's pulling in about 4 million you know and then it starts to
drop down right so ton 300,000 polygon 200,000 blast $10,000 movement
three hundred and twenty dollars phantom rebranded but I think it's interesting
because again you have to compare these things right so be just because someone
has a hundred Kohl's showing them on the timeline you know doesn't mean that
that's reality right scroll eleven Scroll $11,000, right? When I look at some of these, I'm like, this is a dead chain, right?
I don't care how much money you're putting into marketing. I don't care how many, you know,
Kohl's on the timeline are trying to get Kaido points. There is no activity on your chain.
But sir, I'm the top yepper.
I'm the top yapper.
Get those points.
All right, got it.
Min, checking in.
Love to have your take as well, bro.
Yo, yo.
GM, thanks for having me as well.
Yeah, I think Andrew brought up really good points
about the revenue.
I think that's actually,
I see a lot of builders on Solonana
actually focusing on,
because I talk with quite a
few young builders here especially in super team they're focusing on revenue is the first thing
just like normal web2 business where you have to get revenue and so that's really important to me
and I think another thing I would look at besides on the revenue side is that the active user too, because, you know, even though it's quite like a, you know, generic metric,
you know, some can say that easily farm,
but I think that it also showed that how active a chain can be, right?
And then if you can get active people, especially from Web2,
it means that it can potentially lead to revenue after that, right?
So those are the couple of things I will look at.
All right.
Thank you so much for that.
Checking in with John.
John, how are you doing?
Welcome to a PewCast X Cajun Spaces, bro.
Hey, how are you doing?
Good.
You know, from my take is a little bit different, looking towards the future, focusing on the developer community and the stuff that's coming to a chain.
And from my perspective, being on Tezos and Etherlink, we are all about building the future with games and something that's bringing millions of people over
from traditional web to gaming.
So we want to see what's coming, what's there now.
Got it.
And so one specific question for you, right?
I know that you are a veteran in terms of building games
and recently announced Reaper Actual
with 30 million funding backed by Tezos.
So could you share more, you know,
how did all of it came about?
And this is like, to be really frank,
this is the first time I'm hearing like,
you know, game on Tezos
because for the past, I would say two, three years,
it's always art NFT on Tezos,
especially in my region in Malaysia and Singapore.
So I'd love to get more insight from you, bro.
Sure.
Well, you know, I've been making games now 36 years and had a dream to build this game
Reaper Actual and got introduced to the Tezos team by our lead investor, Bitcraft.
And, you know, the rest is history.
The best part about working with them is,
in fact, FA is on here as well.
I'm working with people that are serious,
hardcore gamers that have, you know,
10,000 hours into Counter-Strike
and just really know their stuff.
So for me, it's all about where we can build
a community of great gamers.
And, you know, we think we can bring the noise to Tezos and Etherlink and try to bring a community of gamers.
It's all about building great games for us.
And we get that opportunity because of the great partner that Etherlink has turned out to be.
Oh, right. Got it.
And I want to pass it over to FA as be. Oh, right. Got it.
And I want to pass it over to FA as well.
FA, checking in.
How are you doing?
Hey, hey, hey.
All good, all good.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm good.
Well, you are the head of the gaming of Tezos.
Learn to know more, you know, your thoughts, especially Web3 Gaming right now.
And the whole fundamental of, know hey we are gonna go
or we're gonna put
in a big investment
to kind of like
build out this whole
Web3 Gaming on Tezos
alright so you want
my honest answer
or the biased one?
anything that makes me
happy bro
I want the honest one
obviously
we are on Spaceless
but be careful bro
a lot of people
here gonna roast you so be careful that's fine that's fine so i'm gonna give both the biased
answer and honest answer for you guys for the first initial question right so obviously the
bias answer would be you know for us what really matters like from the gaming perspective is
first of all are you compatible with the latest generation of tooling like like for example third
web sequence whatever you are using are you integrated into that stack as a chain like
jumper whatever the game or the project needs i think that's number one and obviously number two
is the support that you are getting whether it's financial funding whether it's collaboration
collaborating with other projects and so forth and i think think in terms of that, we are in a good spot because we launched Etherlink, our
layer two, it's EVM based, it's compatible with everything.
Our TVL is growing fast right now.
And then in the end, it's backed by Tezos.
Tezos is old.
It's like a big old guy.
It's quiet, but it's been there for years.
It's not VC backed. It was always alive quiet, but it's been there for years. It's not VC-backed.
It was always alive and it still is, and it will always be.
So that's the biased answer.
That's very good.
But if I'm answering with all my honesty, right,
if I were to start a new project,
the first thing is what your project is.
For example, if you are looking to launch a DeFi app,
I would absolutely look at the TVL and the user counts
and the average activity of users on any chain, and I would absolutely look at the TVL and the user accounts and the
average activity of users on any chain and I would choose that first of all if the tooling
is adequate if you're going to get that support just go for it because in the end like if you're
targeting a specific like let's say crypto native user base I think that's what you should be looking
at but if you are like you're gonna build a build a game where you are planning to migrate lots of web to people into web3 i don't think then blockchain layer matters a lot whether
it's etherlink or something else as long as the performance is good and the the technology is
there because in the end it should be invisible right it shouldn't really matter to the players
what exactly that they are using because you also don't care whether your netflix series is hosted
on aws or not so it's the same thing in my opinion but again like in the end if you are building like
like a defy tool um i would obviously look at the metrics and then choose depending on that
all right got it i know andrew raised his hand so go ahead bro as the uh as the former cmo of the uh number one d5 chain what i will say
is tvl is heavily manipulated i mean you know for anyone that doesn't know like that number typically
is treasury tokens that the team holds um you know stable coins and then there's a lot of like
pay for park deals meaning chains will go to liquid funds. Chains will go to institutions and literally say, well, you park, you know, 10 million dollars on my chain, you know, and then we will pay you X amount a month.
So, you know, it's not to say like user numbers aren't manipulated.
Revenue is not manipulated. It's all manipulated. Right.
So so I think, again, you just have to like take these numbers with a grain of salt, you know, compare them to others that maybe aren't manipulating to get a better sense of what's more accurate.
But just a heads up, TVL is arguably one of the most manipulated metrics in crypto based
on what I've seen from the inside.
Got it.
I want to pass over to Mo.
Mo, give me your take as well.
Obviously, the title today is, does choosing, that's choosing a chain effect distribution. And
so, like, love to get your thoughts.
I know at OnlyFounders,
you are, you know, consulting projects
on a daily basis. And
one of the most, I would say,
common headache is, you know, yeah, we have
this product. Everybody
wants to give us a grant.
Who are we going to build
with? Or, you know,
so Mo,
love to get your thoughts on that.
Yeah, so,
bro,
first of all,
love all the inputs over here, right?
One thing I'm going to add to this
is if an early stage founder
is not thinking about revenue,
he or she is thinking wrong.
Because it doesn't matter how many mind share or yapping or cookies or what do they call it?
Snaps that you get.
That's just rented attention.
And that's not revenue.
That's actually a liability.
So, but also for the builders, it breaks down to quite a few things.
So if you're a GameFi project, you're limited to the number of chains
that you would choose to build on based on A, your moral value, B, your urgency,
C, your stage, and D, your capability, right?
So I think for every vertical, there is a chain,
but it just depends.
It's kind of like the chains.
We published an article last year where we audited 10 ecosystems.
So here's an interesting maybe information, right?
We published an article last year where we audited 10 ecosystems,
And those ecosystems spent collectively $432 million
running hackathons and IRL hackathons and developer meetups.
Their average cost of acquisition for a successful startup
was around $380,000.
And that's not direct investments.
That's just the cost that they spent on organizing all these events to onboard these developers.
So it really breaks down to that, right?
Like, A, what is the founder building? B, how, what maturity is
his or her product at? C, how quickly can they distribute? D, how much funding or how much
urgency do they have in shipping the product? All right, got it.
And so I would love to, you know, have...
Guys, it's an open discussion.
So anytime that you want to chime in,
feel free to just raise your hand.
There is no sequence in this.
But I think, like, just seeing the last,
I would say, maybe three months,
we see a lot of, like, new chains being launched.
And then a lot of projects are fighting to be like,
hey, you know, the first project to be launched
on a particular chain,
because, you know, it's going to gather
a lot of mindshare, right?
And so like, love to, you know,
get your thoughts on, you know, this type of strategy.
Does it work? Does it not work?
What's your opinion on it?
So I want to pass it over to Min first.
Min, over to you.
I mean, I think this has been like a
playbook for a really really long time right i mean if we can look back to it's like back in
the day when it's ethereum it's the first one that people view a lot of things on ethereum
and then there's a lot of other ethereum killers right and then a lot of other chains as well coming up and people will be oh I want to be
the the uni swap on this on on x right um so it's the same thing right I think if you take on a
really successful protocols on certain chains usually it's ethereum and then you put it on
uh a new upcoming hype chain um yeah sometimes it does does generate the hype for the community or even VC. But at the end
of the day, I don't think that it's really a sustainable way to do it, especially if you look
back to we need more of innovative protocols and actually bring the business on chain, right?
So yeah, so I think my, you know, honest thought could be like, yeah, we can see it, but unless it's really a specific need like, you know, like a different,
building like a DEX, a perp DEX on another chain, right? We might see a lot of upcoming perp DEX on other fast chains, right?
Like Monad, MegaEth, or Ryze.
So maybe that may be some competitors there.
But yeah, I don't think people building like, you know, a similar way on different chains is going to have the same impact.
So yeah.
Got it. Thank you so much. Vlad, what's your take, bro?
Yeah, so my take is that building an infrastructure right now is quite challenging.
And it becomes to an extent commoditized because you know all of them like becomes pretty
similar to each other so there is no differentiator unless you're building something very purposed and
very niche driven so for example we got an abstract who's building specifically for consumer crypto
projects right and all this generic purpose blockchains they're going to die eventually
because the cost like mo said the cost attract developer, the cost to actually acquire builder is very, very high since, you know, in crypto, every narrative is very short lasting.
So for all these infrastructure projects like chains to attract, to retain, to sustain the builder within the chain becomes a very huge challenge that is
pretty hard to crack on. So and then when you build the brand value, you just understand,
okay, for us to get off from the ground to develop the chain, we have to provide a shit ton of
incentives. And these incentives becomes what? Becomes your candy wrapper that you're printing
out of thin air.
So that becomes eventually the fuel for developers, for consumers, for retail, for speculators, for QLs to come and then collectively pump, pump your narrative a little bit.
But, you know, since we are in the stage whereby there are hundreds of different chains being developed, you know, it became like a fight of the gladiators and the colors you very very very challenging battle and so there's like andrew said to your point brother
you said about revenues about ltvs and all this type of defy on chain metrics it can be easily
easily faked because hey you just made it up you know if you want to show something for investors
if you want to like turn up in a very good uh limelight you just do it up. If you want to show something for investors, if you want to turn up in a very good limelight,
you just do it because you have an incentive.
You have a fucking token.
I'm sorry if the French language is allowed here,
but anyways.
You can serve, bro.
Oh, yeah.
Now let's go hard on this.
Because we are working with different young chains,
with pretty mature chains.
And the problem, like I said, everything is commoditized.
So there is no consumer in there because Builder just came up to grab some grand, then to spend it for a fucking mansion in Dubai and then be broke again.
And that's like the shit tons of a different spoiled problems within the circle.
different spoiled problems within the circle and then if you see like who's actually having a
consumer like I would say up until now that Solana is one of the most consumer oriented
chains so that's why we got a huge craze of meme coins we got a huge craze of DeFi like all this
AI agent adoption because Solana is built for that right when we think about ethereum and that's why
it's been backlogged a bit uh recently especially like this year and so people started started to
actually say bad words about ethereum but anyways i mean it all then the battle of the narrative
and the strongest narrative eventually will win and then when you see how these narratives are
being forged is essentially by uh seeing the, by seeing the chart, whose narrative is pumping, that one narrative is actually winning the game, winning the horse in this crazy race.
And they're just adding some boots in the fire by providing more incentives.
That becomes the ultimate sophistication circle of driving demand
and then bringing supply got it bro damn that is a fire take mo what's up
you know and i and i think to add to this right and andrew would know this
even way fucking better because he's done amazon um user
attribution that doesn't exist in web3 and i would like to kind of like just pass the mic
directly on to andrew to get his take on this uh you're talking about like like performance
marketing like data profiling segmentation that kind of stuff right yeah exactly as what uh kaito for
example claims that they're doing but they're not no no no no definitely not yeah i mean it so here's
what i find interesting um like just for background for anyone that i don't know like i've been a cmo
three times in crypto i advise a number of companies including um what's equivalent to like
the trade desk of web3 which is basically anyone that doesn't know, trade desk is like the largest programmatic media, you know, company that
people work with like in Web2.
So it does exist.
I think the problem is there's like this enormous deficit of marketing talent.
So you have a lot of these agencies where if you, you know, do a simple LinkedIn search,
you realize, you know, most of the founders have no previous marketing experience.
You know, they've got like 100 or, you know, 50 people, very, very junior, very inexperienced. And I would say
even on the Web2 side, like performance marketing really didn't take off until like the direct to
consumer days, like Casper mattresses and all of that. And even like if I look at all of my like
CMO friends in Web2, a lot of them don't have programmatic backgrounds. Like it's a very new,
you know, newer kind of thing. So I think that's part of the issue is like,
number one, you know, marketing talent deficit in crypto, number two, performance marketing
talent deficit in general, right? Like if you have that background, you get paid a lot of money at
most companies now. Um, and so I think what ends up happening is like when I talk to people and I
say, Oh, who's your target audience? They're literally like normies or natives.
But, you know, you have to go so much deeper than that, right?
Because even if we're just talking natives, like what age range, what geography, you know,
what average wallet size, like what's the behavior of that wallet?
And so, you know, case in point, I've been advising Addressable for a couple of years
who's basically built this out, right?
So what they're doing is, you know, saying, all right, if you at least understand marketing,
we can target, but instead of based on like Web2 data sets. So like if you're on, you know,
Meta, for example, has the best targeting, you know, you're doing, you know, age and gender and
household income and all that. With the wallet attribution, it's more like the interactions
that wallet makes or has made, you know, the tokens that are inside the wallet, the total liquidity of the wallet.
And then there are folks that are cracking the code on like basically matching what I would call like that, which is a Web3 data set with like a Web2 data set so that you can actually like start to build even more robust profiles against users.
But like it exists.
It's just most people I think it's a little complicated.
Yeah.
All right. Got it. Thank you, Andrew. And thank you more for that as well. but like it exists it's just most people I think it's a little complicated yeah alright got it
thank you Andrew
and thank you Mo
for that as well
I think like
we've been discussing
and it's a lot about
you know
whether the chain
generates revenue
where are the users
can we profile
those users as well
so obviously
we want to talk about
you know
the chain
whether it could
you know
make or break you
but one thing that
you know
after having a product
is really about distribution
and how much of that distribution
actually generates, you know,
revenue, real users
coming to your product.
So I would love to pass it over
to John first.
And, you know,
we've been on the topic about,
you know, newer chain
versus older chain.
And you, especially,
I think F.A. mentioned that,
you know, it's basically the daddy, right?
Tezos has been there for a long time.
So I'd love to get your thoughts first
on like newer chains versus the older one.
And then the second one in terms of like distribution,
how can a chain helps you with that?
So John, over to you.
Sure.
You know, my take on this is that newer versus older
doesn't matter quite as much as the community that you can build on it.
Coming from gaming, distribution is a funny thing because in our space, for example, I make PC games and Steam is this massive, massive distribution point, but it doesn't allow crypto.
massive, massive distribution point, but it doesn't allow crypto. So when you look at a chain and you
think about distribution, the way I view it is how many people are actually transacting on the chain
and how many people are building on the chain? Because that community is something that we can
be a part of. So a good example is interoperability. So if we're gonna be selling NFTs,
can there be other games in our case
or other apps on the chain where we can use marketing
where we're able to do interoperability with our NFTs,
for example, great example for our space.
And my take is that the age of the chain
gives you one advantage if you're dealing with an older one
like we are with Tezos.
Older also means it's reliable tech.
They build out stuff that's incredibly fast,
a high number of transactions per second,
which our users care a lot about.
But they also care about the cost of transacting
on these chains.
So in the case of Tezos, they say, you know, fast, fair, and nearly free.
We don't want our users to get hit by these huge gas costs.
So when you have a chain that's been around a while, you have tech that's proven, that works, that's reliable.
That's the kind of stuff that we need because distribution only works
if it's reliable in the first place.
So what I want to see from a chain,
and this is what we're getting with Tezos and Etherlink,
is the community of developers that are making stuff,
making things that can be cool to our users
that we're bringing to the chain.
And I think I see that with Tezos, but I also believe that we're bringing to the chain and i think i i see that with tezos but i also
believe that we're there to help build um an amazing community with a ton of people bringing
bringing people over from web 2 is is hard work in gaming a lot of distrust uh in in what's been
done before and we also see the number of gamers on Web3 right now
isn't particularly high in terms of the kind of numbers
we're used to seeing in AAA Web2 gaming.
So we think that this ability to see other apps coming up
where this community of people that are on the chain
really see it as a hot place to build.
We're hoping to help with E hot place to build we're hoping to to help uh with evilink
um to build that up all right thank you so much for that uh if i'd love to get your thoughts as well
yes i mean i pretty much agree with john here um i think so obviously on the web truesad I think we need to accept that there is this thing where the newer, shinier thing is always more appreciated.
I think especially in the beginning, I think that's the reality in terms of the attention market, right?
Obviously, I'm not going to say that it's the most important thing ever, but at the same time, because I know you guys have been talking about Kitean and everything but at the same time you know just new things get that attention that that most people
are looking for so i think it's great in that sense like if if there's a new ecosystem being
created and you have a chance to truly nourish i think that's that's quite nice and usually a new
ecosystem also has some incentives to get you to building right so i think if you're able to spot
that and if it's going to get you to market quicker and stronger why not right i think in that sense it's better
but on the longevity part um like if an ecosystem may have been there for a long time it's not owned
by vcs uh it's it's never failed in terms of performance i think that's that also tells a lot
like i think that's also quite important in the end. So it's all about, again, your project side
and your capabilities that you have.
Depending on that, I think anyone can make
a more rational decision about choosing a chain.
All right, got it.
Obviously, we need to pass it to Kaygen.
Edith, I'd love to get your thoughts
on everything that we have been discussing so far, bro.
Edith, check, check.
Are you there?
Can you guys hear me?
Yeah, loud and clear.
Yeah.
So in my opinion,
whenever we talk about new chain
and the old chains,
it's a classic question to me. It's a
question about speed versus stability. That's the trade-off I look at. So there's obviously
different sides to it. When you talk about the newer chains, they offer a lot of grants.
They have a lot of attention. The mindshare keeps going up and it's less of a competition if they're building a new and interesting tech
uh but what happens is you also risk vaporizing the entire momentum if the hype of the product
or the hype of the chain fades whereas when you look at the older chains uh they have real users
they have a stable infrastructure that they've already built they have a good
developer mindshare and they have good dev tools as well uh so in my opinion it depends on the
product really like for most teams sometimes it might be good starting off with a newer chain
because they get good backing and they have like the early ecosystem support uh the support that a chain would give
for the early movers in their ecosystem but considering the type of product you build like
for example I think people would have witnessed the launch of NFTs in the SoFone ecosystem two
of the most hyped NFT projects on the SoFone ecosystem did not do well and they're sitting below mint price because again, NFT is very native to the EVM ecosystem.
Like you can't just take one product and migrate it to another chain or another ecosystem and
expect it to work.
That's not going to be the case.
So it really does depend on your product.
Man, bro, please do not mention the Sofonmin because I maxed
both
and it's
below me
zero aura point
zero aura point
for that
I think it's
looking at how
you know
all of
I would say
a lot of
just say
if we go back to gaming
right
like a lot of
new games that launch
on the new chain
for example
Abstract.
They did the
whole wave of Ponzi game and lasted
for maybe 74 hours and then that's
it. And then, you know, few products
from SoForn on all of
these new chains.
No traction at all.
Nothing new coming out. And I think
the products that we have been using,
it's always going to be
back to older chains
that has been there
since a very long time ago
and then doing it.
So I just want to get
a general sentiment
from everyone here.
Are you guys more bullish
on older chains
or newer chains
that has been popping?
For example,
I don't know,
Barra chain.
Everybody was bullish on Barra
until they are not, right? So, Andrew, your take first. New chain versus old chain,
where are you swaying to? Yeah, I mean, so let's just be honest. Go read the Forbes article that
came out. Most of these chains are complete ghost chains, right? But if you look at the older chains
that are not ghost chains, I would say typically I'm more bullish on those.
And it's not to say that the tech's better. I think it's more, again, and this goes back to
brand marketing, like if you've been around for five, six years and you've actually been doing
real marketing for five, six years and you're investing in that marketing, like I look at
Chainlink, for example, who, candidly, for anyone that doesn't know the history, like effectively blew up on Reddit or excuse me, on 4chan back in the day. And now you've got, you know, Sergey on
CNBC as like a crypto expert. Right. And, you know, how did he get that opportunity? Well,
he's been in the industry for a very long time. He's built legitimacy, he's built awareness,
he's built credibility. It's the same reason why, you know, you look at XRP's alignment with normies,
you know, other than Bitcoin and Ethereum.
It's like they have awareness. They've heard of it before. Right. Even if they don't know what it is.
And so I think, again, if you're a newer chain, it's not to say you can't stand the test of time, but like you've got catching up to do.
And if you take like Pepsi and Coke, as an example, you know, if you're Pepsi, you're the challenger coming in.
A lot of times what that means is your first couple of years, you're going to market more aggressively. Maybe you're going to, you know, invest more
resources, invest, you know, more dollars to play catch up. Right. But what I see in general is,
you know, a lot of folks that just are barely doing the minimum and in Web2VC, because I'm a
Web2VC, you know, when we raise and we deploy funds to a startup, I mean, they invest that
into scaling. It's like they're like we are going to, you know, staff up, hire,
you know, expand our product portfolio,
all these different things.
But a lot of times in crypto,
I see founders that just sit on the money,
which I think is a huge mistake.
All right.
Thank you so much.
Love the whole comparison of Pepsi and Coke.
As usual, Andrew, fire takes.
Mo, you also raised your hand.
Over to you, Mo.
Yo, I did.
And I think it's almost close to what
Andrew had to share.
So you were talking
about early failures,
right, on Safon, on BarraChain, and so on.
So they're still early.
When Ethereum came out,
when Solana came out, when the Top
Dogs came out, even Tron came out, they had a lot of failures, right? So what's being amplified now
is the extreme. And that's what even Web2 gets to hear and see, right? Web2 gets to hear only
the extreme. It's either wins or it's failures we're not talking about
the people who are still around like their founders their builders their projects that have seen the bear market that have seen the bull market have seen another bear market and
are still sticking around um they all take time not everybody finds product market fit
in the same defined duration but what Andrew said
was also right is founders are just sitting on their liquidity as opposed to
making it work for them all right thank you so much Min yeah I know I know you
want to chime in good now because I was like was like, because this is a topic about, I thought about this quite a
bit because we, under 98, right, we have our own L1 Viction.
So we always think about like how this all the chains going to be competing and stuff
like that.
And I think that people was talking about mainly Monad, Barachain, and Starry protocol
at the day right uh there was the
three i think the most hype l1s um at the time was like raising like hundreds of millions and
and people like so focusing on like okay what's they gonna do right and then we saw
how ip story and and and bearachins uh already out and still waiting on monad now for the for the minute but
you know like if you look at how these chains like raising the money and um and just like you know
uh it's just andrew mentioned it right like just like you know sitting on the money or we don't we
don't know what they're gonna do with it but it just gives us like like with a lot of money raised
um we just can't wait to see like what they're gonna do right so i think you know for me the
the high of all these new chains like it's such a it's such a hard thing for builders to choose
right like do you go for the high chain or you go for like you know more like robust like ethereum
or i think soana can be put as like one of the quite go-to place now so um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, 100%, right?
Because end of the day,
like, if you go on,
if you are, I would say,
a startup
or you don't have minimal budget
and then you go on to
a older chain
where they have already
the top docs there,
you know, you need to spend more,
like what Andrew said, right?
Spend more to, you know,
get more exposure
and bid, like, the top docs
or, you know,
heavily rely on a better product with, you know, heavy R&D and stuff or, you know, opt for a hype top dogs or you know heavily rely on a better product with you
know heavy R&D and stuff or you know opt for a hype chain where you know you could write together
with it so it's really a challenge I would say especially if you know for builders that did not
raise millions bootstrap kind of stuff then it's gonna be really really tricky yeah Andrew hand
raise what's up yeah let me let me kind of take a step back. So I think
the issue with these chains is not the fact that they're new. And like, let me take a step back,
I'm friends with folks at bigger chain, I'm friends with folks at Monad, like, I don't mean to, you
know, FUD or say anything negative in any way. But I think what it boiled down to was, you know,
these folks raised a ton of money, right. And anyone that's been in the industry long enough and understands how PVP works, you
know, what that means is you now have these low float, high FDV tokens where like 90%
of supply, you know, can be locked.
Meaning, you know, if I buy in even at TGE, I've got this enormous amount of early insiders,
you know, with overhang, right?
And I don't want to get dumped on.
And, you know, I warned folks about this in advance, because here's the thing, like,
at the end of the day, when you do a TGE, because I helped with, you know, Arbitrum TGE,
what it boils down to is like, did you meet or exceed the expectations of your community, right?
And the other thing that I noticed is like, a lot of these projects, these newer chains are
really aggressively farming their folks. And if you're going to farm folks, you better understand that that means their expectations are going to go through the roof.
And if you don't meet those, you know, you're going to have an army of of attackers on the other side.
But I think the challenge becomes, you know, these folks TGE, you get your airdrop.
You always sell your airdrop. Right. Like everybody knows that.
you always sell your airdrop, right?
Like everybody knows that.
And then what typically happens is
if you have someone who's loyal, that's bullish,
they're just going to rebuy lower
and turn their initial airdrop into more tokens.
The challenge becomes, if you're a real trader like me,
I sell my airdrop,
but I'm not going to rebuy into this low float high FDV.
And that's why you had a meme coin super cycle.
That's why you're seeing a lot of folks bullish
on internet capital markets,
you know, Echo, Legion, all these new alternatives, because I think folks are realizing like
they're the dumping ground, like they're the exit liquidity. So, you know, NFA, DYOR, obviously.
All right. Thank you so much for that. I do want to shift the conversation a little bit.
I think like we've been talking about, you know, new chain versus old chain. What are some of the narrative? But I think it's been also very quiet
in the market and everybody's looking for, I would say, the next big, you know, projects or brand to
like really take the market by storm, right? So I'd love to get your opinion. You know, what are
some sort of like future tech that you guys right now are betting on? And who do you think
or which chain will lead such movement?
So Vlad, over to you first.
Yeah, 100%.
That's a good question.
And it's good.
And at the same time,
it's very challenging to guess because...
That's why I pass it to you, bro.
As the time goes on, bro,
the thing is,
it gets progressively harder to come up with some new
unique particularities for the chain it becomes a very hard to uh develop the product to the level
where you can ship every day some new unique feature that people have never heard or seen
anywhere else so that's why we're talking a lot about the concept whereby the tag is not the mode anymore, but the distribution is.
And when you think about distribution, well, it all boils down eventually to two things.
How are you going to attract the builders, which all has to do with incentives and media exposure you're giving to them and some mentorship and some people within the ecosystem, some in real life activities, that's like on the level of creating the supply on the chain that then is going to be attracting
demand. Now, when we think about demand, well, it also gets progressively harder to attract new
apers, to attract the new guys who are going to be either farming your protocol, who are going to be
either farming your whatever activity you're thinking about and then
we eventually are in the situation whereby you know people don't care about the tech so they
don't care about a product actually they only care about their bag being pumped and so that
essentially puts a lot of builders in the situation whereby demand creates a fucking supply not supply creates the demands which is completely
uh off the chart and that would actually broke a lot of great startups during the time like you
andrew mentioned where we had this meme coin super cycle and everyone was worshiping murad
everyone was saying yeah that's the ultimate finish of everyone who is doing some heavy product inventory.
But fuck, it wasn't.
It's just a temporary narrative.
And now when we think about the actual new chains and how they can compete, how they can win in this crazy race where a bunch of horses are taking the leading role. So for me, it's only about distribution because, like I said, the tech becomes commoditized to an extent.
And then when you think about distribution, also, it just makes less and less sense to people to just explore something new on the new chains because, you know, it hasn't got some trust yet.
And then, you know, whoever stays on the ground, whoever stays solid on the track, then gets eventually all the trust
in the world. And then this trust essentially brings in and buying pressure and users and
consumers and all that. And so the last point I really wanted to mention is when we just take a
look at the on-chain, right? We saw so many chains and infra projects raise hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars.
And then their PPI, right, which is price to earnings.
And when you think about the revenue they are making, it's essentially very, it's like nothing.
It's a dust in the desert because they are making like $200 per day in the on-chain revenue pure.
And then that's one case.
The next case is that they essentially overblown
that with the extra fake incentives which is not compelling case because investors can easily
crack them on code so and that like you're getting fucking lost in the deep roots of the
web tree because everyone is fucking trying to deceive you you know builders are showing up
some fake volumes chains are showing up some fake distribution uh fucking traders are
showing their pnls being absolutely made in the dog photoshop and then you're fucking asking
yourself what the hell i'm doing here maybe i should switch to web 2 and just chill you know
got it fire tech as always uh i know i think if you know the couple of hans's face means like
that is a firetaker.
But John, go ahead.
Yeah, when you talk about new tech,
I think something that we're super interested in is player, not owned, but player run infrastructure
in Web3.
So we're going to let people rent servers from us,
but we're also going to let them gate it
any way they want to, including monetizing. So we provide the game. We let them mod it. And then we're going to let them
charge for that if they want to. It could be a token gated server if they wanted to do that.
We'll let them monetize the mods that they're making with the Web3 infrastructure that
Etherlink is helping us provide.
I like the idea of one of the biggest things that attracts us to Web3 in the first place is this concept of the decentralization.
So letting players quite literally do community-created content economy.
We think that's super, super important.
So we're going to let all the users
that are playing our game, if they want to,
they can create the same stuff we can make.
But then we're going to go on top of that
and let them sell it to each other.
And there's nothing more perfect in our opinion
than a decentralized economy
that you can only really get out of Web3.
So we're stoked about that as future tech.
Got it.
I think just looking today, basically there's this Web2 product that is called Voop.
And they released a marketing campaign and it's just gone viral because at the end of
the day, it's really about a tech that, a tech that is able to allow other people
to come in and, you know,
create their own, I would say,
net worth or magic internet money, right?
And so like having that whole system in place
and then providing value to the people
that actually needs it,
I think that is really a good model
and it's a new wave of people coming in to,
you know, hey, you know,
how do I create or how do I make more money?
Not just by trading or buying meme coins
or participating all of the prior rounds,
but actually providing value in the space.
So thank you so much for that.
Efe, what's your take, man?
What are some future tech that you are betting on?
It could be Tezos related.
It could be non-Tezos.
Up to you, bro.
No, no, I'm trying to be as non-biased as possible here, right? Honestly, I can keep talking about Tezos related, it could be non-Tezos, up to you, bro. No, no, I'm trying to be as non-biased as possible here, right?
Honestly, I can keep talking about Tezos forever,
but I'm not going to do that.
I'm going to spare you guys.
So I think about future tech, right?
Obviously, the biggest thing growing today is AI.
I talk about this a lot, it's pretty much like everyone else.
But I think the biggest thing for
me is, especially this year, the rise of LLMs have, you know, they came to a point where if you don't
have a lot of ideas about coding, but you're a techie person, which you probably are if you are
crypto native, you can start building stuff on your own. So like our team and some external teams,
building stuff on their own.
So like our team and some external teams,
they all started launching some mini games and small projects.
We internally launched like a mini game,
pretty much like a social engagement game in about like a month
with using only one developer.
So I think that's something that we are betting on.
But in terms of future technologies enabling adoption in blockchains
or sort of blockchains enabling that, I think it always depends on the end product itself, what it is and how well it's being distributed.
Like there have been some killer apps in the last years, right?
Like Polymarket, Imoeprin is one of them or even PumpNotFun, Imoeprin is one of them.
They're all killer products like killer products
great ux they know their target user base very well pump that fun knows who they are targeting
polymarket knows who they're targeting like both of them are i think amazing examples of of how you
can run a successful product and have adoption and in the end you can see their direct effects on the blockchains that they're on so yeah
alright
thank you so much
for that Edith
love to get your thoughts as well
future tech that you're
betting on or even like chains
that you are bullish on
it could be a particular one
it could be a technology behind
tell me more bro yep yep so
one thing i'm very interested on and i'm exploring a lot about is uh chain abstraction and uh
intent-based uh user experiences that some of the chains and protocols provide because at the end of the day my view is users shouldn't exactly care what chain
they're on so which again stems from my interest about chain abstraction where wallets or the
smart contracts that you run execute intents they don't exactly execute transactions uh some of the examples for this probably would be suave stack they properly aim for
programmable coordination and I've seen them speak about this this just goes beyond L1s as well so
this is something that I am very bullish on and I'm learning more on there are a couple of more
things as well which is like it could be intra-native trading,
on-chain order books, Hyperliquid
has already done this, and the ecosystem
is doing really well for them as well.
But yeah, I mean, these are a couple
of things that I'm looking at.
All right. Thank you so
much for that. Guys, I know there is only
a couple of minutes, so I also want to use
this time, obviously, you guys spend one hour
with us.
If you have any updates in terms of what you are building,
please feel free to use this time to share as well.
So I'm going to check in with, let me see,
who wants to go first?
If not, then I just randomly call Mo.
Is there any updates that you want to provide in terms of you building or to the audience
who are tuning in right now?
Yo, we just signed a partnership.
So I'm quite excited about that, right?
Like being able to help early stage founders figure out their marketing distribution media is something that they've spent so much money on.
And all they've got is vanity numbers.
So that's our latest update.
And we're six weeks from internet capital markets,
as Andrew puts it.
So we're launching our permissionless fundraising launchpad.
So quite excited about that.
Thanks, bro.
All right, got it.
John, go ahead.
Well, we just announced our game Reaper Actual
at ECC and TezDev.
From our perspective,
biggest new thing we've got going on here
is getting the word out about the game,
but also later this month and,
or possibly early next,
we're going to be putting on sale our foundation alpha, which is going to let people
actually play our game super early and give builders
a chance to learn how to make
the type of stuff we're making and actually monetize it.
So we're stoked about that.
All right. Min, I'd love for you to pluck in Conviction, bro.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, so I think for people not familiar,
we're hosting one of the biggest events in Vietnam
coming up in August called Conviction,
which I think is something we all need in crypto, to be honest.
And yeah, it's going to be featuring a lot of, you know,
top speakers, partners coming out in Vietnam.
Of course, Pukas and the team will be there as well.
It's an honor to have them as our media partner.
So yeah, you have Tom, want to come by Vietnam in August, let us know.
And yeah, if all the speakers in here as well,
I know that if we haven't you know
connected before we'd love to chat more with you guys and see if any you know thing we can do
together always happy to chat and you want to expand in vietnam or south asia market um happy
to help as well all right uh vlad any stuff you want to share bro bro. Yeah, Lenny, also bring it to off-chain.
So we're going to be having an event in Bali called Hustle.
That's the side events, the exclusive side events in crypto.
And we're pretty open to collaborate with our Asian folks, with our Asian friends.
Part of that, there's going to be the fire lineup of speakers, really amazing partners for this.
It's already been what is like
fifth or sixth series of hustle and after that we are going straight to singapore to token 2049 to
chill work and grind right there and also in bali we're going to be pulling off some amazing
announcement about the app that we are currently working on. That's going to be like mostly for crypto business world,
a very, very consumer-oriented product
that I'm pretty excited to talk about.
So guys, who want to turn up there,
just let me know, shoot me a DM,
and I'll get you guys approved.
And like I said, apart of that,
we are pretty focused to build and accelerate
the next future rock stars within the WebTree space.
That's what we do at Cryptorose Ventures.
Just baking and scaling great, amazing, and promising talent.
Which is very good stuff in this market.
Because we are, hey, I hate to say it, okay?
I hate to say we're still early.
But we are fucking still early.
Say it, say it, say it.
One more time.
One more time, bro.
I'll tell you again.
We are early, all right?
Do you feel cringe saying that, bro?
Come on.
We gotta be honest.
But, dude, when you mentioned
I'm going over to token 2049
to chill and work,
bro, there's no chilling in token 2049.
What are you talking about?
If it's coinfest in Bali, yes.
Bro, I just go with the flow, my man.
You just go with the flow.
We just go and use our favorite weapon
and data tactic, which is PVO, positive vibes only, and you just go with the flow. We just go and use our favorite weapon and data tactic,
which is PVO, positive vibes only.
And you just chill as you go.
You're not even getting tense, you know?
Positive vibes only, bro.
All right, got it.
And yes, guys, Pukas is, you know,
big in terms of doing events in Asia.
So obviously, you know, Vietnam event,
if you guys are coming or, you know,
keen to explore the Vietnam market,
let us know.
Bali, these guys are here as well.
And then we're doing the whole tour
from Japan to Korea to Singapore.
And so if any one of you guys
is looking out to expand,
especially in the Asia market,
please do let us know.
Last but not least,
obviously, I'm going to pass it over to Edith.
Is there any updates from
the Cajun side before we wrap
up the space?
Yeah, I mean,
very ironically, there
are a lot of updates, but
I cannot speak about anything
as of now.
All I can say is just keep your notifications
on, guys, because we've
got pretty interesting stuff coming up in the next few days.
All right.
Got it.
Noti on.
Yeah.
Noti is on.
Okay.
Andrew.
Bro,
you make me get up at 6am and you don't even ask me for my updates.
I'm so hurt.
Which means.
What's your update?
Which means.
bro,
bro.
What's your update?
What's your update?
Tell me.
My update is,
I don't talk about my updates,
but if you do a little digging,
you might be able to figure it out.
I'll put it this way.
I think about 300 people know what's up and that's about it.
But yeah,
running around behind the scenes,
talking to founders,
talking to market makers,
talking to folks in Asia.
Stay early, bros.
That's it. Stay early, bros. Okay.
I know, I obviously know what Andrew is cooking. So yeah, I would love, Andrew, for you to share more. You got to book that clandy link, bro. That's it. Book one, I'm going to make sure that
it's not 7 a.m. your time. But guys... Bro, now his DM is going to absolutely blow up.
Andrew, what's been up?
Tell me.
Bro, I reply to every DM, so don't blow it up like that.
Crazy.
Yeah, no worries, bro.
Like, this guy's energy, it's unmatched, I would say.
But guys, thank you so much for tuning in.
Shout out to all of the speakers.
Appreciate you guys
spending your one hour
with us.
Guys,
if you're tuning in
from the KJM,
from the PewCast fam,
like,
retweet the space
as always every Tuesday
10 a.m. EST
10 p.m. Hong Kong time
we do this
bringing the hottest
discussion
with the top builders
of the ecosystem.
And do follow
all of the speakers up on top.
Send your, click on the notification button.
But Andrew, you're just gonna like ping him all the time
so that, you know, this guy wakes up five hours
before to just reply DMs.
That's it.
All right, bye.
Take care.
Peace, guys. Thank you.
