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The Dawn of BTC L2s: Why Real Yield Matters On All Chains.
Recorded: March 27, 2025 Duration: 0:57:54Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion highlights the emergence of Bitcoin Layer 2 solutions as a pivotal trend for enhancing scalability and usability in the crypto ecosystem. Speakers emphasize the importance of real yield, innovative financial products, and the integration of traditional finance with crypto, signaling a significant growth trajectory for the industry.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Woo! Woo! Woo! Oh! I touch my hands with a tree, and go to the sky.
You can't forget your future plans.
I touch my hands with a turning book.
The sky's with the lights.
The light don't have a golden in your hat.
Set sail from a sand's bread, oh hey, yeah.
Set sail from where we once been gone. While we wait, while we wait. Bye. Oh, well, this is how it goes out of the young. Now I touch my hands in a dream and go to scans.
Now I...
You can't forget I'll teach the plans.
Now I touch my hands when I'm turning on scans.
And the night is alive and that's a golden in your hands. We We'll be right back. No!
No! To the night, to the night, don't let you go, let it in your hands. Thank you. It's the music that we choose. To the days I tried to lose My mama said it's all then You must make your own shoes
Stop dancing to the music
After it is in a happy mood
Keep on my groove on I'm going to go to the next one. Get the clues, get the clues to shine.
Get the clues, get the clues to shine.
There's a monkey in the jungle, watching a fake trail.
Caught up in the conflict between his brain and his cell. And in time's elimination, then we got nothing to lose.
Please repeat the message.
It's the music that we choose.
Thank you for my move on.
I'm to find the name that we choose.
The name that we choose.
The name that we choose.
Play this life.
It's the name that we choose.
The name that we choose.
Give me a hand back. gmgm everybody welcome back to another banger show with bracket today we're talking about the dawn of btc l2s why real yield matters on all chains bracket is liquid stake defi backed by
binance labs today we're here to talk with a bunch of banger guest speakers as well.
It's not just ourselves and Bracket here today.
We also have Omniti, OmniChain Hub with BTC, ETH, Sol, AppChains, L2s and more.
We've also got Jack Bins with us today or Jack Binswitch with us today. Christian, husband, father, D-Gen, and writer,
Room, Roomo, or Roomobo Official.
Roomobo Official.
Jack, you're going to have to help me out with this one, homie,
but definitely, definitely Roomob Official.
There we go.
He actually did.
It was in the bio right next to it.
I just can't read.
So, guys, great start to the
conversation i'm already getting tripped over my words here we've also got waggle with us growth
lead at goat roll up and really really excited for this one want to throw the mic over to bracket
to begin with who do we have behind the mic today you excited about the conversation hey guys good
morning this is mike from bracket yeah i'm excited about the conversation you know bitcoin
bitcoin is that an interesting part you know interesting fork in the road when it comes to
like the the defy and l2 narratives coming together and you know well i guess we'll we'll find out a
lot more today i'm really interested to see what you know the the folks building the stuff and what
they're interested in and what um what
they think is going to to pencil yeah me too i cannot wait to dive in especially with my new
wizard i got involved over the week uh taproot wizard time pfp absolutely bullish on that so
i just had to had to flex out on stage when we started talking about bitcoin and we've also got portal joining us the only custodialist cross-chain infrastructure for native bitcoin swap btc eef sol and any other
l1 or l2 uh look really really excited as mike mentioned just want to do a little tldr about how
we're going to run this space and then we're going to dive straight into the conversation
so speakers if you haven't
been on a stage with myself, with Mike or Brackett before, then really just how we try and run these
is organic conversation. You know, if that was the one word I would use, it would definitely be
organic. And what I mean by that is you're all the thought leaders in the space. You're all the
experts. That's why we've brought you on to the panel today. And therefore we want you to take
the conversation wherever you want to take the conversation. I think it's really important
that you guys get to direct it just as much as my questions will. And on top of that,
if that isn't incentive enough, we also have jack points. So there's a thing you need to do here.
There's no facial cues. I can't see when you guys want to come in. So I need the heart plus symbol
at the bottom right-hand corner. There we go. Omnity is giving a little flex. That's exactly what I need. Hot plus symbol, far right
hand corner. There is a hand raise function. If you want to come in at any point or time during
the show, hand in the ear, we'll get the mic straight over to you. On top of that mentioned
earlier, jack points are basically the most worthless points in the crypto space. I have no
tangible value whatsoever, but you do get 10 jack points for every time you raise your hand on the show today. And at the end
of the show, we'll tally all those points together and we'll see who comes out on top. And that
person will win absolutely nothing for doing so. But you will get my love and admiration for just
for just adding a ton of contributions to the show today.
adding a ton of contributions to the show today. But that really is it. These things are worthless,
But that really is it.
These things are worthless, but it's still fun.
Okay, that really is it.
Mike, I want to get the mic back over to you here
before we do continue on.
Why real yield matters on all chains
is the second part of this conversation today.
Do you want to set us off?
Why do you feel real yield matters on all chains?
Yeah, and it kind of depends on your audience
who you're talking to and what season we're in. But, you know, crypto is maturing pretty quickly.
I think everyone can see that with the new direction, this new stablecoin regulation
coming up. You know, we're seeing everything kind of happening in real time. And I think in
our space in general, it's been a closed loop.
So there hasn't been a lot of new capital, unfortunately, coming into it as, you know, as it was in the last, you know, four years.
It's a lot less.
And so, unfortunately, what ends up happening is you get this, like like PVP scenario everyone talks about.
So to market your product, there's a lot of competitive kind of gimmicks in order to make that happen.
Everyone has to do certain things to get people interested because it's giving your users who are trying out experimental technology kind of a call option on your future.
Right. And that's a fair thing to do.
So I agree with that in general.
But, you know, the points, the rewards, I mean, it is getting a little tiring, right?
It is getting a little tiring.
There's not a lot of new capital flowing in, which is difficult.
So the point I'm making here is real yield, you know, actual trading yield or wherever
that real can come from. And you can
define real any way you want, I guess, if you think points convert to tokens, sell tokens,
make money. Okay. Fair enough. But I think the way we define real yield is trading yield,
actual alpha. That is becoming more and more popular because it's a sustainable thing at
whatever level. It's sustainable. But a lot of marketing ploys are not sustainable and they go through these huge cycles of,
you know, up and down.
And so that's kind of, I think, setting the stage for us of like, what do we think is
real yield?
But and that's why people, I think, are interested in it.
All chains, I mean, every chain has to do the marketing, right?
Every chain, whether it's a new L2 or not. but it's being, you know, it's highly fractured.
So I think those who do generate alpha look to new chains where there isn't as much clutter to see if they can arbit out or see if they can find opportunities that are asymmetric for them.
And that's what, you know, our active managers do.
But I'm sure there are other ways
to take advantage of it, but you get a lot of incentives as well for participating in these new
chains. And so that's kind of why I think it's generally important that that continues. Otherwise,
we're going to continue the PVP scenario, right? And that's not really that healthy.
Once you lose in the casino or you don't get rewarded for
doing what you want those people don't come back for a while so i'm interested to see what everyone
else thinks yeah look mike i'm so with you on that i think the only the only difference with
the pvp side in terms of the casino reference that you had is at least in the casino outside of the house who always wins the
players generally are on a fairly even playing ground or they know when they're not right like
if you're you're playing poker and you're up against a professional poker player you know
you're gonna need to pull like some crazy cards out of somewhere to be able to potentially at all
take any money from these guys but realistically you're going to
get done dirty in the crypto space right now i think that just isn't the case like there's people
playing with different rules um you know airdrops if you're a kol you know that this is a big thing
that i think we still need to fix but i really love your take on that um okay i think omnity
already with the hand up.
They are coming for those jack points nice and early.
Omniti would love to throw you the mic here.
The dawn of BTC L2s, why real yield matters on chain,
is the conversation starter.
I would love to hear your take on Mike's conversation to begin with.
Raised and lowered it, just hoping to collect some double up on jack points today
lowered it, just hoping to collect some, you know, double up on jack points today since we have two
since we have two jacks on stage.
jacks on stage. But I did want to weigh in on the usual sort of where does the yield come from
angle and, you know, cold star problem is real. I think that there is a, not a ceiling, but a sort
of a light or a mild plateau that we're on. What I would compare it to was where cloud adoption was around 2010,
2012. Those companies that built up the mega clouds that you know today, like Azure and AWS
and GCP, they had to beat Cold Start in their own way. Google's way of beating the Cold Start
problem and Microsoft's way of beating it were, I would say, a little bit similar because they had
other very high revenue products. Amazon was not a high revenue entity at that time. They were building up AWS
partly in partnership with Netflix, but partly because they were just existing in the cold
start problem. So I think that if you look at how the cold start problem has been handled
successfully before at a billion dollar scale, and you look at what we're dealing with now,
the commonality that has to come out of it is that there's some suffering required, right? There is some pain
for people who are early to a market where they're going to see more volatility than the person who
is, you know, at that middle sort of like almost getting to the top of the bell curve, right?
So there's a really natural formation here that the players who are still here, who are still building something, who've been delivering meaningful product for a few years, you know, there's a good chance that we're going to make it to the light at the end of the tunnel because we have to, you know, keep doing things that are interesting.
And I don't mean to be negative about it in any way.
That light at the end of the tunnel is very tangible to me. I feel like I see it in our Telegram chats like every other day because the difference that it made for cloud wasn't, oh, hey, we have the biggest business and we're the big sexy computer. That was never it.
That light at the end of the tunnel is very tangible to me.
The thing that made those cloud economies really start ramping up quickly was two things. One, it was cost, and two, it was adaptability or sort of the ease of making the change.
So as we make it easier for people to get into crypto, cough, cough, stable coins,
there's a more likely advantage that other people who have large capital will come in and say, hey,
you know, we want to make this process easier. We want to grow this pie for everyone because we know
that our share of it will still be moderately significant. And I feel like there's a lot of
companies who are seeing that grow the pie kind of angle right now. I can tell
you that at Omniti, we're talking to some of our not direct competitors, but some of our top sort
of like battle card competitors that some people would pair us with. And we're in grow the pie
mode. You know, we're definitely see the PVP. We see why people need to rise and, you know, satisfy their investors.
But, you know, as long as it's not too crowded and too dense with investment,
I feel like the PVP attitude on the Runes and Ordinals infrastructure side is backing down a little.
Maybe I'm being insensitive to L2s because L2s are definitely in that PVP mode.
They had their aha moment last year.
We onboarded a bunch of L2s to our bridge.
We had to pause some of them for remediation after an audit and things like that.
But there's a very high desire to do things that are worth doing in Bitcoin.
And BitVM can't be the only solution to that.
can't be the only solution to that. It's going to be part of the solution. But I think we've got a
It's going to be part of the solution.
lot more ground to cover on BitVM and L2s in general for Bitcoin. And that just means that
we have to sort out what that economic flywheel is going to look like. If it's only based on
pump fund grade speculation, then we've got, I would say, a moderate limit to where we can go
with that. But yeah, back over to you, Jack. I think Waggle's got his hand up as well, if you want to chime in. Yeah, Omniti, honestly, you crushed that. And I love
the context you've just brought alongside Mike to start off the show. And now everyone's hands up.
So I couldn't thank you more for just getting us going here between the two of you. And yeah,
definitely worth those early Jack points. As mentioned by Omnitinity anyone with the name jack immediately gets a 1.5 x multiplier on
the jack points so it does put everyone else at a disadvantage and i know that's essentially a rug
but what can you do what can you do i've got i've got to be right now i'm joking i'm joking jack
you're on the same points as everyone else not giving you away that easy although the pikachu
also nearly gets you there because i'm a big Pokemon guy. Jack, Mike, over to you.
Hey, GM, everybody.
You know, last time we were on a space, Jack, I won the jack points.
And I know you say they're useless.
But, you know, I noticed I was about 33% more attractive to the opposite sex all week.
And my one rep max in the gym was up a good 10%.
So I don't know, man.
I think you're onto something.
It's a pleasure to be here, guys.
I'm here representing Hermetica.
Hermetica is a Bitcoin-backed stablecoin.
And it's actually yield generating, which is very cool about, you know, with the concept we have going on here today in this conversation.
And yes, we do need real yield in this space. I think you can look at DeFi up until this point.
I think you can look at everything in this space, really, as iterations building on top of
iterations, right? So, I mean, if you go back to like Dey summer on eth you know it was a lot of experimentation
and a tremendous amount of fun to be quite honest but you know some things won some things really
showed hey this is this is how we can do it and you had a lot of defy primitives born and now
we're here on the verge of mass adoption. And we're in this space
where you're going to see TradFi really come in hard and building out their own DeFi rails. I think
there's going to be a lot of competition with, you know, not just within crypto. I think it's a
matter of growing the pie, like Omniti said, because on our end, I think we're going to be competing
directly with the big boys. And I think that we're primarily going to be competing with the big boys
for more regional and local solutions, right? I don't think the small business owner or regional
chain is going to build out their own rails. And I think these are the people we have to
target with what we're building in this space. And so when you're talking about
things like, well, why does yield matter? Well, why does Bitcoin matter? Why does Bitcoin
settlement matter? These are in-demand things. And if you you're gonna ask people to take their valuable assets
arguably the most valuable asset in the world and and lock it up and do something with it well yeah
you you better have something good to offer that person in return and um yeah so great conversation
looking forward to try to win all the jack points again i gotta go to the gym after this i'm trying to trying to get sexy guys you're already sexy in my books jack but uh look absolutely banger
takes and uh yeah i definitely need to sound by the whole idea that these points now help you if
you're one rep max and also your attractiveness to the opposite sex or maybe the same sex like
depending on whatever floats your boat i want to make sure these are equal opportunity jack points for all sexes.
Look, guys, great, great start to the conversation.
Actually, genuinely, like so much to be shared already
and so much value being added to this one outside of the comedy.
So big, big fan of that.
I think we've got Portal and Waggle with the hand raise as well.
So let's go in that order, give you guys some jack points to start off your day
and see if it does help with the opposite sex.
Hello, hello.
So I guess we'll find out.
This is Terry here from Portal to Bitcoin.
First of all, I see so many of our Portal jellies in here.
Shout out to our community.
Now, I wanted to add on to what Omniti was saying earlier.
So in regards to real yield, where that ultimately goes into the end user's pocket is what matters.
For most, that's either in stables or cold hard Bitcoin. If the asset you've taken profit into isn't reliable,
your real yield is simply a continuation of speculation
and can risk evaporation.
Yeah, absolutely agree, Portal,
and absolute pleasure having you on the show again.
Waggle, Mike, over to you.
Oh, do we have you, Waggle?
You might have double muted there.
I know you're...
One, two.
I think they were struggling to get up on stage.
I think there is an X bug going on with mobile devices at the moment.
Am I back? Yeah, we got you. amazing wow you know x uh not been working well the last few days hey guys um so you know i did want to add on to what omnity was um he was saying
um you know i think the most important thing is really kind of where the yield's coming from i
think you know the one thing that defy Summer really taught us was, you know, you
have to know where the yield's coming from.
And if not, you are the yield.
You know, that's why, you know, I think as kind of DeFi has evolved and, you know, where
BTC Phi is going is, you know, really having to show the users where their yield is coming
from and how they can generate it.
You know, I think many people have learned kind of the unfortunate
pasts of what has happened. But, you know, something we're building at Goat Network is
really the transparency of where your yield's coming from and, you know, how it's paid.
Yeah, look, I think this is one of, if not the most important things that new users should be aware of
anyone getting active in the defy space is yeah the whole idea that look if you don't know where
the yield is coming from i'm just going to double click on this one then it is coming from you
if you don't know what that means it basically means that the yield itself or at least this is
the context that i sort of think of when i think of this take the yield itself is coming from the new
users coming in a little bit like a ponzi you know it requires the liquidity of the new user and
you're getting that liquidity in repayments and it basically is a big game of musical chairs you
know um waggle you might still be on let me just pop you on mute um oh no it's not working
if you can pop yourself on mute waggle that should hopefully solve the reverb um background
maybe i just need to talk a little quieter oh waggle's hopped off i'll bring him back up but
hopefully that'll solve the issue and but yeah look it really really is just down to that point
that if you don't know where that liquidity is coming from it might just be that they're basically dependent on the new
liquidity that enters with that attractive yield and as soon as people decide you know what the
game of musical chairs is over and they exit it really is like every man woman and child for
themselves to get out before that liquidity does go to zero and we have seen
that in the past portal your hand has come up over that we'd love to hear your take yeah hell
that's the old strategy from web2 if it's free you're the product being sold
yeah yeah this is not new this is this is not new just got a shiny new logo to it so yeah i think
that's a really great addition portal.
And yeah, we call them Ponzi schemes back in the day.
And I still think we do actually, to a certain extent.
Not all of them in exactly the same way, but yeah, definitely the old school version is
what I have in mind.
Okay, guys, we're 26 minutes into the show.
Fantastic conversation so far.
Let's keep diving deeper. And now I would
love to talk about BTC L2s in the first part of the sentence of the title of the show today.
And specifically the question for you up on stage, why is the rise of Bitcoin L2 specifically
important? And why is it important for both Bitcoin, but also for the broader ecosystems
in your opinions. Mike,
I'd love to get it back over to you because you started off with this, but I'd love you to dive
a little deeper and then we'll see if some more hands pop up for those jack points.
Yeah, sure. So to address the first part, I mean, given where we are, I think everyone's on the
same page. We got to increase the pie. That will happen, there's going to be other people coming in. But the existing liquidity happens to be, a lot of it happens to be, or a huge percentage of it,
happens to be in Bitcoin. And so people want to unlock that liquidity, right, naturally.
And now there are some really reverse incentives and strange behaviors going on on that side of
the L2 side. I think, you know, we personally are finding out a lot of liquidity rolls up to a very small basket of LPs.
But that being said, there's still a lot of users who want to activate their Bitcoin and do something.
A lot of Bitcoiners don't really like interacting with Ethereum.
I mean, a lot of these L2s are Ethereum compatible and everything, but, you know, they like to deposit their own Bitcoin and not have to like move around too much. I think there's like still a UI, UX kind
of problem there for a lot of these L2s. But either way, we're starting to see some users.
It's not as many as I expected. You look at some of these L2s, like they're in the thousands of
users, even though they have billions of dollars, which so, you know, a lot of that comes from just a small pot of folks that needs to improve.
But I think that the reason that L2s are or the L2 narrative on the Bitcoin side is important is because the use of Bitcoin as a secure network, the most secure network, has been a topic of conversation since Satoshi, right?
Like BitDNS in the early days and Counterparty.
And if you guys have been
around long enough, you know what I'm talking about. All of that is super relevant still.
You could still, like, you know, Stax even tried, you know, is selling that idea. And despite their
different models, using Bitcoin as a secure network is just a natural step. It doesn't
necessarily change the nature of Bitcoin, but it definitely helps
use Bitcoin's prowess to build other networks. So I think that's why a lot of people are interested
and that's why there's a narrative around it. And people want to activate it. I think it was
Jack, you said if you have this super powerful asset, potentially the best asset in the world,
you got to give people something if they're willing to lock it up.
And it's not going to be just us and the Bitcoin L2s chasing that vision.
It's going to be the big boys figuring out how to do lending and collateralization.
And, you know, I think within 12 to 24 months, it's going to be a way different conversation,
way different conversation after some of those guys move in.
So that's my take on it.
Yeah,
look,
I completely agree.
You know,
people don't want to,
don't want to touch that Bitcoin.
Like they do not want to move it.
Like,
you know,
not just the maxis either,
just people who genuinely understand that this thing is operating as a reflection of the
success of the market as a whole and i think because of that yeah the only way to unlock it
does sound like adding something to bitcoin itself and allowing like that yield to come
directly from bitcoin so look mike really really agree with that jack your hand is raised for that
second set of jack points you want that one rep max PB. Love to hear your take on this.
Yeah, man. Look, I was, you know, I've been in crypto since 2017. And so I, when I came in,
it was like, you could buy Bitcoin and that's all you can really do with it. But Ethereum,
you know, especially around DeFi summer, that was like, oh my goodness,
this is great. I can do all kinds of fun stuff with this. And so my first experience with Bitcoin
L2s came along in 2021 when I went into the Stacks ecosystem. And no one was really talking
much about Bitcoin L2s at that time.
But I saw the potential because I knew how important smart contracts were from all this time that I had in ETH. And so to me, the vision of being able to combine the security and liquidity of Bitcoin with the power of smart contracts just made total sense.
smart contracts, it just made total sense. And it wasn't really until ordinals had their first
bull run, right? When the transaction fees started going crazy and everyone's like,
huh, maybe we need Bitcoin L2s. This is not sustainable. This is reminding me a little bit
of Ethereum with the high fees back in the day. So now we see this proliferation of L2s,
and it's directionally right because Bitcoin has to be able to scale somehow. I'm starting to see
some maxis allude to, hey, well, Bitcoin's only going to work on TradFi rails.
And that's crazy to me.
You know, honestly, that kind of blows my mind that you're like, wait, you've read the
white paper, right?
Like, you know, you know what Bitcoin is, right?
And, you know, if Bitcoin's for everybody, to say that it's going to work best on TradFi
rails, well, TradFi rails aren't for everybody.
There's all kinds of people who are locked out of the traditional financial system for whatever reason.
So that clearly doesn't check out.
I mean, the math doesn't math there.
So, yes, Bitcoin is amazing.
And it does need to scale.
But it absolutely needs L2s to scale.
And so I think, again, like, you know, what's going to eventually become the standard,
you know, like Bracket brought up just here a minute ago, like, as TradFi really comes
into this, I think a big narrative is going to be, does your transaction settle on Bitcoin?
narrative is going to be, does your transaction settle on Bitcoin? And then it's going to be a
matter of how does it settle, you know, to what degree, you know, how secure does it have to be?
All of these things will come up. So I think that we're sitting on a meta,
an emerging meta that, you know, really hasn't, we haven't seen the full power of it yet when it comes to
Bitcoin L2s and settling on Bitcoin and what that's going to look like. But as far as I'm
concerned, that's probably some of the biggest alpha in the space because this is how we scale
Bitcoin. And there's going to be several different ways to do it. Everyone's working on one way or another.
And I know that traditionally, maxis are thought to have all the Bitcoin
and there's so many Bitcoin whales who are maxis, this, that, and the other.
But not only is that changing as we go,
but as people and TradFi start making their own ways to do this,
I don't think they're going to use much of our infrastructure with maybe some variants here and
there. But this is going to kind of become an antiquated idea because it's going to be done
other ways anyway. And we have to figure out the best ways to do it here on our end,
because we are offering that alternative to the traditional financial system,
where everybody can be included, everyone can have opportunity, nobody's gate kept.
You know, if you're fortunate enough to have been geographically born in the right place,
if you're fortunate enough to have been geographically born in the right place,
you have privileges that you don't realize you have.
And, you know, Bitcoin is the solution to that.
Bitcoin allows everyone to participate in the financial system,
allows everyone to have a good currency,
and allows everyone a way to save and earn yield and so forth.
And I think that this is why we'll always
have crypto, no matter how much mass adoption happens. I think we'll always have what we have
as a counterpart to whatever the traditional financial system is putting out. And I think
at the end of the day, Bitcoin wins one way or the other. Yeah yeah i'm so with you on that i completely agree
um obviously little bias here because my whole net worth is is dependent on it but that being
said i'm joking people i am a little diversified i do have like a couple hundred dollars in the
bank in a savings account but anyway waggle would love to hear your take on this and then we'll get
the mic over to portal next yeah you know i think that's why people are really focusing you know through bit
vm2 and some other things um you know like you know uh jack you were saying our main focus is
really kind of settling on bitcoin because right now most chains and you know ourself included is
almost considered a side chain you know until that bitVM is implemented. The one thing I did want to go back on, though, and, you know, talk about was,
you know, you said, Jack, of how there was about, you know, 1000 users, but millions of
dollars in BTC. You know, I think that's a really important point, because a lot of users really,
at this point, don't want to kind of leave their BTC out of their wallet.
You know, a lot of BTC maxis don't trust smart contracts, a lot of BTC.
And, you know, even I've seen the digital gold and i think people are really kind
of more heightened to uh you know let that out of their wallet compared to you know buying
twelve thousand dollars of a shit coin
well that's the utopia we're all hoping for right yeah i'm with you on that one i'm with you
with you on that one and with you and portal your hand was raised we'd love to hear your take on this
and portal your hand was raised we'd love to hear your take on this
ah yes well first of all definitely agree with all of our other speakers
from us most succinctly without bitcoin l2s bitcoin remains a store of value rather than
being a viable chain for everyday payments so i've been in Bitcoin since 2011,
and I recall the days of the $35 transaction fees.
That isn't reasonable to have
when you're over at PubKey Bar for a burger and fries.
Hell, more recently during Babylon's event,
transaction fees went, well, over $35 a piece.
High costs, slow transaction times don't make for fun chains to interact with other chains either.
L2 resolves these issues and opens up native Bitcoin to interoperability.
Absolutely agree. Love the context as well.
Love that history look back and just giving people
like look this is what it actually looks like i think it's really important to you know show that
history and experience on the show so people can really visualize this um look guys we're 37 minutes
into the show listeners if you're enjoying this one likes retweets follows all the good stuff
got a bunch of absolute banger guest speakers on. And if you
want a little bit more alpha on BTC, on L2s, on building in crypto, then these are the accounts
to follow. And definitely follow Bracket because we do do this on the weekly. Me, Mike, Pelly
sometimes always here to just add some value and try and talk about the stuff that people want to
hear about in this space. And look at being
that we are close to sort of the final third of the show, I'd love to look at the future a little
bit more now and get the experience on stage to, to paint me a picture here of what that future is
going to look like. So I think the first question I have, and Mike, I'd love you to start off here.
I know this is a, you know, maybe you just have an additional question on top of this because we're going to lean on our speakers here but can btc layer two solutions really help
us achieve mass adoption like similar to what we've seen on ethereum based l2s yeah i mean
i think it was portal i mentioned this and you know jack and and i think weigl maybe as well
you can't have you know 50, $50 transactions or $35 transactions
and expect Bitcoin to be money. I mean, it was intended to be money, right, at first. And I
think it grew beyond even Satoshi's, like, you know, there was these wild ideas in the early
days of this is going to be this huge, this could be this huge thing, and this is what it could be
worth. And the early talks about it being money, you know, it started to evolve as Bitcoin became a thing, right?
Things change and the material nature of things change.
But I do think that if Bitcoin is unlocked as collateral, which will probably be first, like your little experiments I think we're doing at small scale.
We're talking huge scale, you know, like billions of dollars moving all the time. I think collateral is first in lending,
right? And so that's number one. Doing that on, if it could settle on Bitcoin using one of the
layer twos, I think that would be, or, you know, a bit BM rather. I think that could be incredible,
right? That's the first step to unlocking Bitcoin's underlying potential as collateral.
And then if we can get, you know, Bitcoin on layer twos moving faster and moving more cheaply, you know, Lightning obviously is around, has been around, but there's a lot of opinions there.
I'm sure people have. But that is a big step in getting more adoption.
But right now, I think we haven't seen enough of that to scale.
And so it's still not enough users using it, right?
If you just look at the user accounts, it's like, eh, not really that great.
But the idea is there, you know, Bitcoin is definitely setting itself apart as a separate
asset class than crypto.
If you talk to anybody in traditional finance, they accept Bitcoin kind of finally
as like, okay, this is its own thing. We consider ETH even an alt and Bitcoin's its own thing. And
a lot of the large, large custodians and banks are basically saying, we're in, right? We're totally in.
Our users, our asset managers are going to start doing this. They're going to look for yield.
They're going to look for native yield. They're going to look for yield on the TradFi rails. A lot of the old school TradFi
guys, they don't really care about settling on Bitcoin, guys. They don't care. They care about
trading a new asset. And they make money when it trades, right? They make money on spreads.
They make money. So they don't care about it. But users will care. And so it really depends on the
user. If large money and the high volume users care
about settling on on bitcoin then fantastic then they'll then they'll start doing things like that
but if they don't then you'll just see your bitcoin show up in your 401k brokerage account and
in the you but it's like where is it right and is it actually is it just like a centralized exchange
like coinbase kind of moving things around um but interested to hear other other opinions there
i'm not the expert on this by any means yeah no mike i do like i'm really on the
same page with you nonetheless though and it really is interesting to think how you're considering
this and you know it to to a big extent like how projects building in the space are considering
this and we've got jack and omnity with the hand raise they're still not done with those jack points they want that pb jack mike over to you first and then we'll hear from omnity yeah no this is this
is great points i love these conversations and you know speaking to unlocking bitcoin collateral
so you know hermetica stable is usdh it's actually a bitcoin rune it's got l2 operability it's fully collateralized by bitcoin
so anytime you have a usdh token you actually have one dollar worth of bitcoin okay and it's
yield bearing because there's a spot position of bitcoin held and then there's a short position
held on bitcoin so there's a delta neutral position there.
And then so when longs pay shorts, people who have Hermetica stake, they get yield.
So it's sustainable.
It works.
This is a proven strategy for anyone who's done any significant trading.
They already understand the strategy.
You've probably used it.
So I think stables are really, this is why you're hearing so much about stables right
now, because what's one of the biggest obstacles to mass adoption today?
It's having to go through centralized exchanges to like use your crypto, to actually convert
it into something that you can use in real life it's
it's hard to turn satoshis into a meal right like you you know there's there's all kind of
workarounds but ultimately i think stable coins are gonna are going to fill this void and as
especially as we get more clarity on regulation and more vendors using stables. And then ideally, I think,
you know, we got, we have Tether, we have Circle, we have these, these big behemoths,
but I think your best stables are going to be hopefully collateralized with Bitcoin like USDH is
because why, why sell your Bitcoin for fiat? That kind of defeats the whole purpose in the first place, right?
So I think as we see more innovation on Bitcoin, more innovation in making Bitcoin usable on the L2s, you know, more super bullish on the stablecoin talks right now.
Because, look, no one can really make money from stables.
Everyone's on a timeline.
Like, how do I capitalize on a stable meta?
But that's a signal.
And what the signal is, is Bitcoin is mispriced at $88,000.
It's just mispriced in the favorable direction to us, right?
us, right? Like something massive is coming and collateralizing Bitcoin, putting it to work.
Like, something massive is coming.
You know, I don't have any problem with lightning, but there's going to be lots of solutions. And
then there's going to be the secondary industries built up around what we're already doing here with,
you know, point of sale terminals and all of these other things. This is, we're really on the verge of something massive.
So I think the message is we keep innovating, we keep iterating,
we keep our eyes on the prize and we're going to win.
And this is the perfect place to be right now.
If you're new here right now, man, you're getting some serious knowledge
dropped from this panel right here.
Follow everybody here.
The biggest thing you want to do is understand why.
Not everyone's going to be able to tell you the why.
Everyone on the stage can tell you the why.
You need to learn the why so you can level up and realize what time it is.
You're still, as crazy as this sounds, you're still technically
an early adopter at this stage.
And the world's going to look completely
different in the next decade.
It's
1999 in Web3.
Yeah, I was going to say maybe
1990. But look,
I absolutely agree. And I
think, look Jack, that again you you've had some absolute
sound bites on the show today as have all of our speakers but uh this idea that you need to know
the why um i think for the most part it's been the thing that has kept me holding bitcoin throughout
all the chop you know and I think fundamentally there will be moments
and probably still moments to come. I'm not sure if they're ever going to be as drastic as they
have been in the past now, but who knows? And there will be moments where you see big downturns
on the value of those assets. And if you don't know the why, that's what gets you shaken out
like that. It's the fear and the not understanding that really gets you shaken out like that it's the fear and the not understanding that really
gets you shaken out so i completely agree follow everyone on stage definitely figure out the why
for you yourself educate yourself do whatever you want dca hold whatever that might be but i think
definitely great great takes on the show today and i've really thoroughly enjoyed this uh just a
quick caveat that this is not financial advice.
We're all just building in this space.
We're all projects and builders who are super bullish on the tech,
but we're not financial advisors.
So do do your own research.
But definitely, definitely something I heavily resonate with alongside Jack
and the rest of the speakers here today.
Omniti, your hand is raised for those Jack points.
Mike, over to you. Yeah, I love Mr. Ben Swish's takes. They're very hard to stay focused on, but I have something, another parallel from IT that I wanted to share with you guys because
it's not taught well in schools. Even if you go to school for computer science,
learning about the history
of the IP protocol that we're all using to talk right now. I'm not going to get into the absolute
nerdiness of breaking it down and how TCP became a common protocol, blah, blah, blah. But if you
look at how DNS became IBM's sort of big win and how many other American first companies led businesses
and got subsidies and had financial backing and, you know, had a real business incentive
to offer other people to join their network, to use their protocol, to sort of, you know,
take a small loss in order to get access to a larger economy.
I think that that's what we're going to see in Bitcoin land.
And I'm using that comparison specifically what we're going to see in Bitcoin land. And I'm
using that comparison specifically because it's bound to hardware. Software changes very, very
quickly. We can bring up and bring down entire software stacks for multiple websites with relative
ease these days. Orchestration is a real thing. So I think when we look at the adoption curve and
we look at these barriers as we're getting through, you know, like, hey, what kind of security are we willing to accept for a Bitcoin L2?
You know, hey, what is the reasonable path to be able to use Lightning with something like USDT or USDC?
You know, these paths are illuminated by the history of, you know, the sort of business incentive being first and the technology incentive
being reasonable enough. You don't necessarily have to build the best tech. You have to build
good tech and then build connections to, through, and into it. You know, I'm personally a fan of
runes. There's a lot of reasons why I like them. But one of the reasons why they weren't just
in the same position that Alkanes are right now as sort of a product being developed by an entity is because Casey decided to do the build in public thing where a bunch of people threw tomatoes and threw flowers and discord all day long and making sure that you do have a lot of eyes on what you're
doing if you think what you're doing is valuable, I think that's the narrative and the meta that's
going to kick us off into the next layer. And that does mean that we have to still get through
a hardware level adoption where point of sales today might not be able to handle ED25519 keys.
You know, there's some cryptographic operations today that are just not designed
for IoT devices. There are some things that are, you know, delivering data and acting as sensors
out in the world today, like that thing that makes sure that you don't accidentally close
the garage door on your head. You know, that thing doesn't have any encryption. That thing
is not capable of managing any kind of hash power in order to conduct a secure operation or
exchange data with a, you know, a service that's secured by something as powerful as Bitcoin.
So I think that instead of trying to sort of spread things where they're, you know,
not going to fit because, you know, maybe Bitcoin isn't the right choice in some very
fiat ingrained markets, you know, it makes a lot of sense to make that available for businesses who will take
on the risk as long as those businesses aren't focused exclusively on doing business to other
businesses. If you get that loop of, hey, we're selling the pickaxes to the guys who are selling
the pickaxes to the guys who are selling the pickaxes, that should sound wrong. That should
sound like part of the problem. And it's not that we're in that phase now. It's that that's how institutional money tends to get. That's how the dot com boom happened and bust. And, you know, I think that when we get Tradfly in here doing some of that activity, people like the people on stage today will still be around. crushed by these silly business ideas that come from a macroeconomic leverage that doesn't include
technological understanding and a vision. And a lot of people have been looking at Bitcoin as a
sort of financial-only asset. The world computer conversation about Bitcoin is still very, very,
very young. So I don't think that Ethereum needs to fail for Bitcoin to succeed. But Ethereum being
weak right now is a really, really great time for Bitcoin's strength to become more obvious.
And I think that is rallying more people to the cause, not just to trust Bitcoin as a secure asset, but also consider what that security means and how that can be useful and how that can be applied.
these things with degrading keys and frost and noist and roast and all these other cryptographic
schema um that that you know were not possible in other chains that are still not possible on
most public blockchains look again i i've said it before on this show i will say it again the
alpha the education and just the banger takes on today's show honestly guys you all deserve the w when it comes to the
jack points today i only wish they were as valuable as jack is saying they are because
you all deserve them to be you all deserve to go into next week with just an absolute plus 10
on everything that you want to do um absolutely incredible show massive shout out to bracket to
omnity to jack to portal to waggle want to get the mic over to Portal before we close out,
and then I'll give the mic back over to Mike himself to close us out too.
Portal, over to you first.
Oh, yes.
We've got to agree with our previous speaker.
Now, this is not healthcare advice,
but please don't close your garage door on your head.
Now, you can write great code,
but if nobody's running it,
you've just self-published a Kindle book.
You have to listen to your community
and you have to listen to your end users.
I just thought, like, I've got no words.
Mike, I'll get the microphone back over to you here.
Any updates, any milestones, anything at all that you'd like to share
on behalf of Bracket before we close out the show today?
Well, I must say that Jack has gotten substantially stronger
and handsomer over this call.
I think the gravity that Portal brings to our conversations is welcomed.
I don't want to leave a waggle out.
I think, I think you guys and Omniti,
you guys have just crushed it, this, this call.
And I think this is probably the biggest call we've,
or the biggest space we've had.
So I think people really jive with this topic.
Yeah, it's tough.
You know, my last point on this would be,
yeah, Ethereum does not have to fail for Bitcoin to succeed,
but people are trying things, you know, and TradFi doesn't try things straight up.
They wait and they'll just wait until something works and then either attach themselves to it, copy it or whatever.
They don't there's just a knowledge gap that they need us for sure.
They're not going to completely destroy that. They can't even build this technology. They don't. There's just a knowledge gap that they need us for sure.
But yeah, I think this has been really enlightening for me to learning a little bit more about
some of the concerns in the Bitcoin side for growth and adoption.
As far as we're concerned.
Yeah, I mean, you guys know about us.
We're going to be adding some new denomination vaults very soon.
Probably the next two weeks, we'll have the contracts done and audited.
And then we're really hoping to do a wrapped Bitcoin or layer two Bitcoin and then a stable
coin play. Just because we're here listening to the users. They don't just want ETH, they
want everything. So I get it, right? Okay. We listen to you and we'll do it, right? People
love Bitcoin. They want to earn on Bitcoin, whether it's a layer two or not. They want
real yield. They want to know where it comes whether it's a layer two or not. They want real yield.
They want to know where it comes from.
And they don't want to be the product.
Totally get it.
And we're working on it.
But yeah, I just want to leave off.
Thanks for everybody.
This has been amazing.
Yeah, genuinely really enjoyable space.
And massive shout out to all our speakers as well.
Because yeah, definitely the topic.
But also I think just the absolute heat that has been brought on today. It only just brought new people in but it's kept everyone here so really appreciate all
of our speakers bracket for putting this all together and these banger guest speakers on the
show and that's it for us i can only think of one song to play us out so apologies i'm not actually
a bitcoin maxi um i do believe in other chains but this is the only song i could think of not yet
appreciate great space oh also we basically tied out everyone was on 30 jackpoint so you guys do
all get to go into the next week with a plus 10 We call them core.
We call them core.
People that use fiat currency.
We call them core.
We call them core.
We call them core. We call them core. We call them core.
We call them core.
This is the name of core. Thank you.
Host
Bracket
from
Bracket Labs
