Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.
Hey everyone, thanks for being on time, we're just gonna give a minute or two for other folks
to show up did I did I ruin the music by speaking oops yeah I think when whenever
someone starts speaking it turns off the music but okay I'll I'll know that for
next time I didn't want to kill the vibe what do you what do you think one one
more minute Aaron yeah that sounds great
okay I guess I guess let's let's get rolling so welcome to this episode of
Bankless Desi Mike where we discover and you discuss all manner of exciting
developments in the Desi space I'm joined by my co-host Aaron McGinnis and
crypto shrimp PhD who's behind the Bankless Desi account our host this
week or this episode we're gonna hear about all the cool developments and
experiences people had at the Desi summit sigh OS event or a Nova event and
see you all happening at East Denver last week I actually missed it I couldn't
be there so I'm you know excited to actually you know hear about all the
updates and developments and since Aaron was there I'll turn it over to you
Aaron and you know would love to hear from you absolutely yeah Denver was a
really great time a great convening of a lot of people in the Desi space and
really great opportunity to get some new folks interested in Desi as well and we
have a couple people on the space right now who ran some of the main Desi
events as well as different speakers at it so would love to have them speak or
like request speak as they're able to to come share share their thoughts as well
maybe while we invite people up you can you can just give us like a quick you
know like vibe check like just overview of all the Desi at East Denver yeah
yeah so throughout the week kind of leading up to the main East Denver event
there were a few different hacker houses Desi World led one of them silk and
led kind of another hacker house so there are a lot of people actually
building out really cool stuff with workshops throughout the days at those
different houses there's also Psy OS which had workshops and talks every day
as well kind of completely across the Desi ecosystem maybe with a slightly
larger tilt towards the technical side of things and we're in that product half
so there were a lot of opportunities to hang out and learn from one another
there there's also Oranova from Orissa and they had a few different events as
well some different happy hours in networking just to really help people
continue connecting in a meaningful way and then there was the main Desi
summit which was held at Colorado University the medical kind of
connection there and so had a bunch of different people kind of share across
what's happening in the Desi ecosystem from the movement perspective as well as
updates on product or different organizations and just where Desi is
headed there are a couple of people who also spoke at the main East Denver
venue so was able to get some kind of broader web 3 ecosystem eyes onto Desi
too and so those were kind of a lot of the main facilitated events some other
happy hours and parties in the evening as well and and overall just really great
gathering and way to convene some of us who have been in the space for a while
as well as have some new voices at the table too which which is always great to
be able to keep growing the space forward so that's kind of high-level
overview there and then obviously between all of us being in Denver many of us
like we're able to represent other types of events and really intro new
people into the space which is always exciting and from my perspective there
were a few more people who were like oh I've heard of Desi now tell me more
what is this I don't I don't really know what it is exactly but I'm curious so as
kind of a whole space I think we're starting starting to get few more eyes on
us which which is exciting super that that sounds amazing I wish really wish
it could have been there so we also have a desi world on space and I guess maybe
while you know folks from the audience you know get up the courage to tell
their stories you know you can always request speaker it I like to call it
desi open mic alright but maybe we can hear from from desi world yeah Aaron it's
good to be over here yeah I think Aaron did a really good
welcome cover of what the different activities were in Denver I think this
is you've seen incrementally more and more people becoming involved in the
process of building out East Denver at the desi summit as it's not called for
the decide like it I think we had about 700 people 600 700 people register to be
attendees across the the two weeks that we were there when I say two weeks
because the desi hacker house started on the 19th and we had a lot of a lot of
different people show interest and a lot of cross pollination with different
projects that don't just operate within desi but also outside so whether it be
you know pop-up cities or zktech and all the different tooling sets that I
seen a lot of really interesting kind of proof of concept tools get developed
during that time in addition to the networking the the I guess coming
together of the different builders in the space as well as people who are now
curious and willing to become the builders themselves so it's a good time
absolutely would love to hear more about the the house you were running maybe some
of the different workshops you ran and anything that was maybe kind of
ignited or started from it yeah for sure so we had workshops from a variety of the
players that we already know in the space we had some of the people who
were also presenting outside west we had index network come over we had
shadi come and talk we'll talk about ways to devise incentive frameworks for for
basic research that go beyond traditional IP we have uma which is an
optimistic oracle come over we had a variety of the hackers in the house
present their projects mike sin the founder of cura dial is working on
something called the decentralized FDA I we have people developing nutritional
platforms that let you leverage your anecdotal data and your your your
ingredients list of what you eat and put that not on chain but build an app and a
framework that really reflects the health benefits or detriment to the food
that you eat we had other people working on active exercise frameworks and
then just novel decide cooling in general a good example is the integration of for
the development of the molecule ecosystem so beyond IP and FT's what
are some of the other tool sets that can be built up by merging IP IP and FT tech
with attestations and proof of knowledge which is that these I wrote platform and
other such structures to make it more of a comprehensive ecosystem to help you
know fund research from bench all the way to the commercial space so I think
there was a lot of seeding of really good ideas a lot of cool projects and
I'm looking forward to seeing how they develop over the next year if they
become implemented if they start to branch off into new projects and yeah I
think I really considered these I and with the you know the development of new
tech new new tracking systems that like the the DSI lands as codex he's our
world's proof of knowledge Elijah I see is here his hyper files and a few of
these other data unit platforms giving us the ability to have like these
essentially forever hackathons where all of us can work asynchronously but
simultaneously on a particular project and keep a prize of what we're all doing
in a coordinated way there's a lot of cool stuff happening yeah I'm super
excited for what will be built out and where the space is going as well and
you give such a great overview of kind of some of those different players that
are really building towards towards some of those possibilities and exploring kind
of a wider set of what is possible in DSI for sure I'd love to see I mean we
have a lot of attendees here like Marco from Poseidon dial they gave a
presentation they're building a precision medicine based funding platform super
cool Ronin is here common sense network which is an integral part of how we
make AI is more I guess reflect better how humans think and they're up there
be optimized the ability for them to report information that we're actually
looking for a lot of cool things love to get into a discussion let's have more
people up and Stanley I see that you're in the crowd I know you weren't there I
know you talked about having a lot of FOMO would still also love to have you
up and talk about you know what you saw from abroad from afar was going on at
the DSI summit definitely yeah anyone in the audience please request to speak
and we'd love to have you come on up so everyone here would really love to have
some of your thoughts and perspectives in the meantime or aside would love to
share have you share your experience at East Denver and kind of running some of
the different gatherings as well for the DSI space thank you Erin this is Eva
from RSI and over out and I don't know what's it for the whole disaster made is
I think the whole experience is truly nice and also the I don't know my events
way to have the left stream on the in our community so I don't want to look up
into the recap of the talks and panels please feel free to look look into the
left stream and also I really want to send a thanks for all these amazing
speakers they share all the perspective in the event and also I think the
decide portion session is pretty nice I for me I really enjoy it I do love the
speakers who share this first that perspective and insight for in that
session and I think that's very interesting and very fresh a fresh
experience for me and overall I think the whole I mean like it's my first time for
the physical disaster made and for our first time like to meet all those amazing
decide people so I really enjoy the whole experience in Denver yeah it was
amazing to have you in Denver and was had a really great time at some of the
different events you held was able to connect with some newer faces as well
that I didn't have as strong of ties with and you guys have a strong
stronger presence in Asia already are there any like takeaways between kind of
the trends happening and other ecosystems you might be connected to versus what
you're you saw really focused on in Denver you mean like the December or
December from a decide perspective in particular but it can also be extended
to like broader each happenings to was just curious if I know when I was at
decide Tokyo last year there was a certain conversations that were happening
there and we're much more of a focus compared to other conversations that
might have been happening in the US or Europe I mean like for me because it's
my first time to attending others like physical decide the large design
conference so I mean like I think before next time I really want to do to have
some fresh experience not to do like all those conference type like people
probably just talking some like topics like the topics are we talking the you
know in the other events so we really want to see anything new and seen trends
in design and also like as an event for match I would like to have something new
as well not always the panel talks not always the lightning or keynote talks so
maybe like for the RSI we probably will have something fresh in the other even
maybe in the salon door or maybe in the Dubai so I think there's more coming up
so that's my opinion regarding to the events
yeah definitely lots of more cool things coming up in the space and Stanley
would love to kind of jump over to you definitely miss you this year and would
love to just kind of either get your FOMO captured from it or hear what's on
your mind lately I miss you more and I will certainly keep my remarks brief
having not been fortunate enough to attend I think as I said to Jelani the
FOMO it burns it burns but you know what not as much as another conference because
decide really a special man like every day this has been going on I'm waking up
to messages and video clips and stories from my friends about amazing things
that are happening and so yeah please just know everyone all over the world is
rooting you guys on and it's so cool that another beautiful East Denver has happened
yes definitely from this gathering one of my main takes takeaways was just how much excitement
in all different locations there is for Desai so I think we'll be seeing a lot more Desai
events and gatherings and organizations popping up with ties to a lot of different
cities and regions that maybe didn't have as strong of a Desai presence or foundation
already at least at that public sphere and also just the appetite from different research
academic spaces industry as well as like technical developer communities to to start
leaning into Desai so I'm excited to see a lot of these events really pop up and
all the communities that will continue building stronger connections between them
yeah I want to double click
nice did you guys see there's a sound board now my goodness yeah um so I want to double
click on that because we spent a lot of time throughout you know the Desai summit
events but also going to other events that are happening over uh East Denver and there
was a few instances where I was just talking to a few people about Desai and external people
were just kind of listening in like oh shit like I've heard about it I want to know more
so there are a lot of people who are starting to understand that Desai is an actual thing
that are curious about it I've been to a good deal one to four or five different BC
breakfasts and they're all interested when the topic of Desai came up even though they
hadn't necessarily been investing in it yet it seems to be something that they're considering
in their investment portfolios their profiles for the coming year and I assume into beyond so
I think this year we're going to see a lot more traction in Desai perhaps not in
the researchers themselves necessarily at least not at first and that's just because
of the nature like researchers are not attending East Denver in the same way
the same you know number or magnitude as other players but the other players are definitely
interested in it so it's exciting to see what comes hopefully next year next East Denver the
next Desai summit and then throughout the various conferences that are leading up to that next year
we'll see many many more people kind of championing the goals the different goals of Desai
absolutely yeah I was chatting with a bunch of different investors and funds and they all
are like interested in Desai but also need a little bit more information and also
have been asking like who should I be keeping my eyes on so they're watching other builders are
watching and kind of that scientist community is watching too and some of the larger institutions
or just like governmental funding bodies are also watching Desai so I think as we keep moving
forward really really cool things will start to have like this positive snowball effect moving
forward Francesca would love to hear your thoughts we met down in Vitalia and then we're
able to reconnect here yeah would love to hear kind of your different perspectives on Desai and
also coming in from like a slightly broader perspective too super thank you Erin I woke
up and I saw Despace and I joined you guys I learned about Desai yes I learned about Desai
really at Vitalia and it was super interesting for me to you know learn about Despace being able to
make a proposal and get involved with more people experimenting and discussing different designs
but mainly for me what was you know from the perspective of the infrastructure is how do we
really how important it is to bring blockchain development into science and experimentation and
how do we handle how do we handle and manage patients data so coming from that perspective I
think Despace can be truly enriched by the blockchain community and I'm super interested
and excited to learn how I can get involved and how I can bring as well you know the zero
knowledge use cases in the healthcare and as well as the creating infrastructure that help us to
make better platforms for experimentation so super excited I will be headed to
Desai London after this and meet you guys there I'd love to learn you know also what
MUSE matrix has been creating with the fellowship and how I can support however I can absolutely the
space amazing yeah your point about just kind of that data side is such a big part of the
conversation in Desai and likely will continue to be and just making sure that's done in a secure
type of way such as with ZK has been kind of on the minds or in the development of some of the
projects in the Desai space and likely continue to do so so lots of cool ways to really integrate
some of this powerful technology into Desai to hopefully have some real impact on science super
excited for you and other folks who keep getting more integrated into the ecosystem and be able to
keep seeing you at these different events is always amazing on a personal level too Aaron you
know I mean you know as sort of a I guess former data science I guess professor right decentralized
data and you know this aspect to Desai is sort of like really close to my heart just a bit of alpha
for like the folks joining us we're gonna have a sort of special episode focusing on the data side
of things and also on like the AI and modeling aside and so you know doing a bit of groundwork
right now to get some really excellent guests in that area if you're you know if you want to speak
on that or join the panel obviously we'll have sort of the open mic aspect but you know just
just reach out on the telegram group if you if you want to participate in that I think it's going
to be coming up in the next two weeks for sure so a great great shout out thanks Francesca
yeah she'd be a great addition to that combo so I'll make sure you're looped in and hopefully
you'll be able to join in um would love to pop over to slow science uh and just hear about your
experiences at all the desai events or other east Denver events as well yeah gm gm I think we
should probably maybe get Stanley on that panel too I know Stanley's pretty uh heavy on the AI world
um I am not I'm a poser in the AI world
but um yeah Denver I mean there was desai events like five days during the week that was pretty
awesome um I really enjoyed I went to the Monday Tuesday Wednesday events um it was just kind of
like really good content um like really good people and dovetailed I think really well with
the other narratives that that I was seeing around east Denver and um sort of echoing
what Jelani said earlier uh it definitely got a lot of strong vibes from people wanting to invest in
the space but uh not really sort of understanding what desai is right and I think I think we're
all still figuring that out as well um but but I think that's kind of where the narrative is people
people are noticing us um you know as a space as a community as a meta community and and we're
making waves you know I think it's a matter of incorporating some of the other tech uh in the
space like you were just saying um I didn't I don't think I got a chance to meet Francesca
but um but definitely interested in learning more about zk and how that could play a role
uh in preserving you know ip creating data liquidity ultimately creating
biological liquidity um in the space and that's what I think desai is bringing into the world
and what people are starting to realize right with all these I think attestations was a big
narrative this year both in the desai space and outside uh people are are realizing that we can
make statements on chain and use that to uh build scientific sense making iteratively um you know
as a broader community and so these narratives are waking up and people are taking notice um
and now it's just you know I'm really excited to see sort of what comes out of this
over the next year um you know as more tooling and then the desai communities um endows of all
so great to hear from you uh flow science uh it's been too long we I don't remember we did
a twitter space together like uh when like late last year it was a great time good to get to hear
from you in addition to attestations which was definitely a big part of the convo were there any
main themes that you saw or heard that kept coming up um from your experiences in convos
yeah yeah something that um hit me during the I think it was wednesday with ceramic
maybe that was tuesday but this concept of um knowledge fragmentation right and I think
in desai a lot of us are very aware right in the traditional uh ip systems knowledge
management systems knowledge generation systems of universities and private organizations
that there are tons and tons of data silos right knowledge silos information that's created and
not shared with the rest of the world um and and with knowledge being the ultimate public good
um yeah I think a lot of us and desai are very very aware and cognizant of the fact
that we don't want to be creating additional data silos in web 3 um and this fragmentation
that exists that we're seeing right now with all these different l2s and things like that like I think
we're all very aware that we don't want to be creating additional fragmentation
in this knowledge network of humanity and so I think that bringing that back in
and creating unification creating you know integrations between different networks and
different data storage layers I think was a big theme this year as well both in the desai space
and outside of it completely yeah one of the biggest themes I experienced was really on the
standardization side and um specifically from a data perspective so couldn't agree more on that and
it's really such an important conversation we had especially as we're laying out some of these
foundations I think another another major uh piece that was touched upon this year that
wasn't so much there last year and I think is a mark of maturation is those enterprise spacing
applications of desai whether it be in the form of academic applications both securing networks
or securing partnerships with actual institutions and not just necessarily community groups as good
as those are I think the the paradox of desai is that you do you will need institutional
adoption to then drive the more formal scientists to see the legitimacy in some
of the tooling that is being applied and so whether it be things like the desai notes
platforms that are integrating with institutions across the United States and the world or things
like you know uh amino chain with Casper Barnes and decentralized biobanking or remedy which is
decentralized diagnostics and clinical trial frameworks I think all of those are interesting
larger networks that we can then plug into some of these other tools directly into and it kind of
creates a flywheel a positive flywheel effect and I think that's what will be the next iteration
in terms of driving people in in the same way that you know the Bitcoin ETF has now made you
know a general adoption of desai much more sorry of web3 much more accepted there's a certain
framework like that that I think is going to is going to come around to desai and whereas in
that space I think there's a little bit more resistant the problems that exist in the current
scientific paradigms are so are so glaring and so egregious that institutions are actually looking
for ways to facilitate or expedite or optimize their proceedings their processes um procedures
so I am hoping that next year we see a lot more formal incorporation of these different
toolings that we've seen this year into just the general framework of how science operates
completely and a lot of them are either starting to make some moves slowly or build out in that
space I know within the desai Chicago ecosystem there aren't as many players kind of in the
conversations we're having here um but some of the different like hospital systems or
academic systems or just bigger corporations are they have different blockchain summits and
and people really starting to take a look and and build out here so I think further integration
with some of those different communities and also just continuous invitation of those
bigger players who are so essential to to the continuous build out of desai um will really
help make that happen and and I know we kind of touched on this in some of the different talks but
desai isn't this like you have to choose desai and not everything else it's an addition on top
of what what is already there and just hopefully an improvement on it um Stanley did you have some
thoughts on this oh totally um I think even maybe specifically uh Jelani mentioned amino chain
and that's a project that's been on my mind a lot um such an important project uh specifically as
you guys were talking about for addressing uh knowledge gaps um you know amino chain's trying
to make sure that high quality precision medicine data is you know shared so that clinicians are
spending their time with patients not on the phone with uh with biobanks um and yeah just really
a good example of uh of what you know desai can do and and why it's I think so important
that these conversations are happening yeah for sure I think the layer and Francesca brought this
up so the layering of of zk and then ai on top of these frameworks I think it makes them even more
powerful right um there's going to be this cool convergence where instead of necessarily looking
for specific data that you may not even realize that you necessarily meet for let's say an sop
or a methodology these ai interfaces that are going to sit on top of these data repositories
like proof of knowledge like hyper files like the desai nodes as codex and that are integrated with
institutions will allow for institutional sop's um and methodologies to just be implemented or put
into a chatbot into an ai chatbot and it'll surface all of the relevant information that is
pertinent for that actual sop right so you essentially let your methodology speak to the
data and then surface exactly what you need to do to then leverage in your ecosystem whether it be
for a patient diagnostic or rnd development and that's across that's not just like biomedical
sciences but across all frameworks and i think that's when we'll start to see the merger of
these fundamental pieces of let's say what i call grassroots desai and these more esoteric
applications powered by or in combination with institutional grade attention that then give
rise to you know macro innovation across the different spheres across the different pillars
that are in desai but also across the different industries of science
absolutely uh i know i'm super excited for for when that starts to get some more traction as well
um definitely anyone else up on stage right now that would like to share some of their thoughts
or experiences forgive me if i if i just jump in real quick to share um a thought about that
deep Denver before i i have to jet and and this would be related to my uh my dear friend Renee who
was uh one of the founders of talent dao and is now doing work with um bankless desai and
quite frankly i'd say she's one of the big reasons i'm still in desai um she's someone who
is just such a brilliant and mission driven researcher and um i gave a talk for um the bankless
desai on conference a while ago and the talk was kind of largely about these difficulties julani's
talking about that a lot of clinicians face to just get high quality data um and uh um Renee
took that and went out got us a grant and we built a research server with some pretty significant
ai capacity for um you know working on just these problems and i believe she was kind of running a
hacker house where they were kind of working on this computer getting it operational and you know
again like these conversations have impact and it's so fun to be a part of them um because you
know it was just a couple months ago we we were chatting about this issue and now the computer's
there and there are patients who aren't going to have to wait for treatment now and it's it's just
kind of the traditional system nothing would have happened and and so anyway guys i'm so happy to
be here thanks for letting me uh be on stage the fomo burns just a little bit less um and
uh you hope i have a wonderful rest of the space and it's just so good to connect with everyone here
amazing thanks so much stanley definitely want to have you on future spaces and really dive into
um all the all the work you're doing because it's really powerful and legit applications
that are having positive impact on people's lives already and could it couldn't be more about
Renee um really such a fantastic person in the space and and definitely um a big reason
um a big reason why i keep sticking around as well
i think uh i don't know marco if you want to chime in i see you unmute yourself so feel free
um but in the meantime if not i think another really interesting theme that i've noticed is
the merger or the the need for the merger of desi with things like dpin which kind of
already is there but leaning further into that i think is really essential and then the novel
advent somewhat novel advent of incorporating like d5 primitives um not solely for the funding of
research itself but also to subsidize applications of dpin right like the the composability across
these different industries are really interesting and i think we haven't we haven't really considered
what are the applications there outside of the per person incentive um and i think spending more
time and trying to understand how can we loop currencies into funding deep in in such a way as
the power desi applications is a really interesting loop forward like positive feedback loop that can
exist there absolutely i think that also extends to the conversation just about how as a space
we can be doing better jobs staying connected to the open science movement and just learning from
them there there are all these spaces that are maybe a little bit more mature than desi that
that have figured things out such as defy a bit more and and we could really be doing a better
job integrating some of some of the applications or just approaches that they're taking that have
worked for sure like big shout out to levy who actually here's in the crowd and used to work at
back al and i was headed up his own platform called co-op five which is essentially a marketplace
that sits on top of dpin infrastructure specifically gpu's and i don't know if they're adding in other
layers um so it's an aggregator of gpu networks that you can then commission or go to a marketplace
and set up a commission for whatever compute function you actually need to do um and that's
a great way to weave your workstation or your work operatives throughout you know collective
networks maybe you know a cash network doesn't have all that you need but by going to co-op five
you can get you know uh uh licensed not licensed but get access to networks that in addition to
co-op to a cash use the other ones as well like new net and some other frameworks um so i think
we're we're slowly but surely heading there and i hope that by 2025 we have much more integration
with the current web three industries but to your point erin also the open science frameworks
so like john who jay ringo john for those you know um is one of the other major organizers
beyond myself uh me john and shaddy for the desi summit and he is working very closely
with the open science like the traditional open science frameworks him at non-focus they're
putting together a map that maps out the millions of communities that exist around different
open science tooling and to your point of we don't need to reinvent the wheel we can actually
spend time learning from our predecessors um in terms of how they did it and improving on where
they may not have succeeded uh if we just look behind us briefly um i think there's a lot of
really cool tech that we can start to weave into the desi matrix that doesn't leverage web3 but
could achieve more impact by doing so and we can just help shepherd that processing so
big shout out to john for that and i see levi's up so i'd love to hear him talk about his own
project yeah huge shout out to john uh levi would love for you to share um your angle too because
it's it's really important to this whole conversation um yeah thank you i had a really
good time i need to other i think it was really really productive uh this year i wanted to throw
out an idea that i heard some other people say and this goes back to what julanya was
was just talking about which is um incorporating or not incorporating but like there's all these other
um you know parts of the crypto world that are more mature than where we are right now so um
you know dvi um dpin decentralized ai and i've heard some ideas uh thrown out there that
because there isn't at least yet that much money in desi um that some of these other
parts of crypto might with they're already a kind of you know massive holdings might start using that
funding that they have um on uh decentralized science and uh desi projects and so on uh because
for all for a few reasons but one of them being that um like they're already here and they
already have all these resources and there's a massive opportunity and so i did want to i was
wondering like where do people think that a lot of the funding is going to come from
uh in the future let's say this coming year is it going to come from people funding desi it's
going to come from you know um either institutional investors outside investors or i could be even
uh you know even i mean probably unlikely but universities uh or other entities um outside
of the crypto world is it going to be them that start investing in decentralized science
or is it going to be existing parts of of the crypto world like dvi dpin decentralized ai
and so on um that will start using their holdings to start participating now i wanted to get people's
thoughts on that yeah i mean from what we're even seeing so far of a couple of the different
biodows um getting a bit of traction taking kind of more d-fi type approaches or angles
i think in the super short term that might be uh how have some more funding gets
integrated into the space um and then as that happens and projects are able to continue maturing
then i think some of the other more institutional or um other investors at a larger scale
will will start be able to justify some of those different investments more easily to the rest of
their teams yeah um i think if you just look at the the way that d-fi played out in the way that
d-fi had um a few you know three or four major projects make it out of a other things such as
fracks that generated real revenue based on the service that they provided through lending or
borrowing or governance or senior age or whatever and those guys are still making hundreds and
millions of dollars in revenue um and that's a real that's real revenue right that's protocol
based revenue some funding through d-fi came from the use case uh that it was that it was
putting out there right like it's putting out a lending service that people wanted to use so
they could speculate or lend uh and it created a lot of revenue and the same will happen in
d-site where there will be a few of these you know blue chips as they're called uh that have
some kind of revenue mechanism built in that generates a lot of revenue for the platform
and for hopefully science if the platform is giving its revenue to science in a sort of
sustainable manner um but apart from these blue chips where does the money come from in d-fi
and for better or worse it comes from pure speculation for the most part right and i
think that this is just the nature of the beast the 24-hour casino that we're living under um
that a lot of the the funding so to speak for d-site will come through speculation and it's
important that if we do try to tap into that that we figure out a way to turn that speculation based
revenue which is just basically token price going up into actual research for scientists and
a good example is some of the the d-site projects that have launched recently
their tokens underlie their ecosystems through governance and some of these tokens have pumped
10 000 percent and it's like okay so the money's going into the token because people are speculating
because it sounds like a good narrative but how does that money that goes into the token
actually go into science and so from my perspective you know dows that launch a d-site governance
token and those tokens pump because they will because it's a bull market and it's a good
narrative how does that project take the responsibility to you know to turn that
speculative value into actual revenue for researchers for science for creating infrastructure
for giving actual funds to researchers who need it these sorts of things and that could be a
general sale mechanism where it's like the project has a token that is just periodically
sold into the market for eth or something and then that eth can then be given to scientists
something like this i don't know but it's i think levi your point is that yeah there's
a lot of people in d-fi that have money and have made money and those guys are already on
chain right those guys already have serious sums of money on chain and so most of the money is going
to come from those already existing on chain partners you know science is typically poorly funded
and you know also adverse to putting money on chain so all that money is going to have to come
from probably this the same crew that's been pumping tokens for the last five to ten years
and it's just important that we can figure out a way either through you know some kind of
consensus across the space you know social pressure even a strong unified narrative which is
okay cool our tokens are pumping but how do we turn that into money for researchers rather than
just riches for the people that hold it because it's it's an incredibly capitalistic mindset that
doesn't redistribute any of the money to the researchers and so i think as pro tokens come
and launched new tokens novel methods for feedback from the price appreciation to having
a treasury that gets funding that funds research i think is really important and
i'd like to hear you guys thoughts on that but i actually just can't see it happening any other way
yeah if i could chime in um as someone who's got one one foot in the d-fi space
um i i think that the challenge revolves around you know taking something that you know like desai
i think we've heard the word like public goods mentioned sort of several times right
um is taking something that's a public good i guess at heart right and then somehow uh accruing value
to a smaller set of you know like stakeholders instead of the public to only like the token
holders right and and somehow managed to do that uh in a way that like upholds the principles of
like open science and desai and and public goods um i know uh vitalik wrote um some some work
a while back about you know like funding public goods this sort of stuff uh we can look to a little
bit to like the git coin model i don't know how how their tokens and stuff are doing right now but
you know uh i i suspect there could be some ways to do it uh you know i mean in a bull market you
know memes like valueless governance tokens uh you know do hold some value right um
um perhaps it's through the governance function right to be able to sort of like participate in
in steering how how this research is done um another way might be to you know as dows um you
know there there are ways now that didn't exist before where dows can actually like you know
incorporate as uh as legal entities and therefore could uh you know be assigned things like ip rights
right which could then be uh you know potentially monetized and and flow back to token holders i mean
that would be a way to get uh research done that otherwise is not getting done by like mainstream
science for like a variety of reasons which we could probably spend a whole episode on that
but um you know i i think there are a few avenues to explore and i think you
identified like a very interesting problem um i'm sure there's people working on the solution
um so i think an additional layer here if we're going to start taking lessons from
from d phi is that it's very easy to launch a token because d phi relies predominantly on speculation
um at its crux for the most part i think i think that's the kind of main driver for value
propositions there but because d phi bridges the divide between the digital space and what we've
now started to call the meet space as the official term for the non-digital space
i think the necessity of token tokenomics and token launches that go beyond
governance and actually weave into the fundamental value proposition of platforms becomes even more
important so yeah i can i can launch a governance token that that governs the treasury sure
but if the value of the platform extends beyond that how can we devise better tokenomic models
that actually reflect that so that we actually maintain the floor so that our dependence we're
not as dependent on you know token go up in a speculative way but token actually goes up
because the value accruing goes up right like it reflects more about how shares are an application
of traditional uh corporate entities versus this you know puppetry governance aspect that exists out
there i think in the same way that we will take lessons from d phi if we start to devise these
more holistic comprehensive value reflecting token structures that might actually inform d phi in
terms of how to better do that in their own right um and i think that's that's the missing link
that we have here with regards to how d psi is going to be launching tokens or how d psi should
be launching tokens in the future um because we don't want to rely just on you know where we're
all like profitable and or uh uh we can operate only in the bull market like we're affecting
people's lives across the board we need to find sustainable ways to do this even if it involves a
token completely besides really located at such a cool position where we're able to learn from
these different spaces and kind of adjust and pick and choose what what works best for for
kind of moving this space forward um yeah that's all right i mean i just wanted to jump in and
sort of follow up on that d phi and d psi narratives um after a couple other people who are more
knowledgeable about d phi than myself uh in my perspective i think the mean you the real unifying
value between d phi and d psi is self sovereignty um like ultimately at the core and you know
giving individuals the ability to um you know participate in in the process scientific process
right or you know d psi or whether it's d phi or to participate in their own uh financial self
sovereignty um you know i think that that relies on the transparency of blockchain um you know
and decentralized governance um ultimately when it gets into like actually managing
some sort of collective asset right when we're talking about like knowledge or information
or data um and then to me like that real link there uh building on that even further is
transcending the individual and collective divide and that's that's not a term i came up with that
was actually a talk kevin awaki gave a few years ago um about how public big funding public goods
creates this like jet engine cycle where additional public goods or additional products
that are feeding into public goods um can continue funding each other right because they're
creating more value than they're extracting from the system and and ultimately that uh you know these
projects like transcending this individual and collective divide like that enables people like
the individual divide enables us to be selfish and have self sovereignty but in doing that these
systems that we're setting up of decentralized governance also enable by participating simply
by participating you're contributing to the public good of the collective that you're
participating in um and that really enables us to convert between like financial capital and these
other forms of capital uh whether it's social or intellectual um or governance capital right
whatever that is um so i think like closing that loop and that real alignment between self
sovereignty will kind of yeah attract more partnerships with these big you know bigger
uh revenue generating DeFi organizations or projects um and bring those values into DeFi
as well um sort of like closing that loop because to me knowledge is the ultimate public good
but how do we balance that with you know protecting uh individual scientists or organizations
work right in their IP and that's sort of like that divide that we're crossing between
the individual and the collective in my eyes in the space and it's all linked by self sovereignty
yeah that's my spiel yeah i'm going to present another problem and not solution which is not
fun but something to think about is you know okay we're going to a point now where my dog
hey um so the thing is is that like we're heading towards a time now where what it means to do
science and have intellectual property and all such things is changing quite a lot and so
what does it mean to own an idea what does it mean to leverage that idea uh how do you get
paid for it etc and knowledge is a public good science is a public good yes but the problem with
the public goods sort of term the public goods as a as a concept is that in crypto when you're
funding public goods 90% of the time 95% of the time when you fund the public goods you're taking
those funds and you're taking them off chain and so what you have is a situation where everybody
believes that knowledge is a public good and everybody believes that science is a public good
because it is and should be shouldn't be able to maintain ownership over over the natural
knowledge of the world but then at the same time when you're funding these things you either have
two options you either have an option to put it through ip or you have an option to fund it with
you know some kind of public good funding charity based mechanism um or grants sorry
and then that money goes off chain and then so all of the money that you're generating on chain
all the value you're generating on chain for the ecosystem for the collective partnership for the
dow is sort of siphoned away and it's like okay so what do we have to do in this interim stage
because in the interim stage between some new valuing mechanism for knowledge and science and
some new way of keeping all the money on chain during grants so that the money can be fed back
into these tokenomic mechanisms as you know at least a two three year period before that is
seamless and as you mentioned Elijah closing the loop right and so in this two three year period
what is going to reign supreme is probably you know speculation
all those all those sort of projects that generate some kind of revenue on chain
right and and i think that that's something we need to be aware of is that public goods are great
and public goods are good but funding them is a net negative for the on-chain funding paradigm
which is fine but it's like if you're a decide project trying to bootstrap your science you're
trying to get money to scientists or trying to generate money for your protocol public goods is
something that is kind of beneficial for the larger groups that can actually fund these things
such as op and get coin etc like these guys have a lot of money that they can put through for
marketing and that's where a lot of scientists i think will get most value is trying to tap
into the desire for public goods funding on a sort of like a um on a mark against marketing
being cynical level you know trying to tap into that that goodwill but i think for decide projects
relying on public goods funding is not a good idea um i think it's something that doesn't
really scale very well and i think that we need to have a serious think about how to generate real
revenue keeping it on chain so that the collective that participates on chain can actually maintain
that value um and tying this on-chain money generation uh keeping it on chain to some kind
of scientific output how do we get some kind of scientific output keep that on chain it's a
question that unfortunately you know we don't really have the solution to yet we have some
ideas that decide world but there's still some some big issues there uh something i thought i'd
say is that public goods are great but not sustainable for the growth of a truly decentralized
scientific paradigm yeah i agree i agree i think the like closing that loop and but i don't
understand like the difference between like how like a public goods funding model and like a vc
funding model would have a difference in whether that value stays on chain or off chain but i do see
i do see the concern there um and i don't know i think that impact like keeping the impact
on chain is what can close that loop and i know we're almost out of time so i'll just stop there
this sounds like we could do a whole like episode around this this topic it is a deep
topic and one of the ones that's kind of always on my mind with respect to desize this it i think
that this idea of like public goods and this idea of like value capture in order to you know drive
value back to token holders i think those are definitely at odds i i can't say that there
isn't a way to solve this but it actually is a very uh fascinating problem at the core of the
issue so uh great suggestion for a future episode definitely so many great uh takeaways from all of
the experiences in denver and all of the work that that everyone here on the stage and so many
people in the audience and beyond are working towards and definitely more conversations to be had
more coordination um and just more effective build out as we keep moving forward i wanted to thank
everyone who tuned into this space today um and everyone who's just continuously contributing to
desi it from like that personal perspective it really makes it um a good good space to
keep building in and just be able to be surrounded with so many awesome people building out really
incredible things so uh from from that angle as well wanted to thank everyone here and everyone
else contributing into the desi ecosystem i'm super excited for what's to come and what
this conversation will look like post east denver next year post desi summit next year
and and really um just see the difference of how much we've grown between that time
okay well thanks thanks everyone for joining our speakers uh co-hosts um bankless desi for
you know hosting us and um i guess it's a wrap for this week we'll be back soon
with another uh action-packed episode so thanks everyone thanks folks thank you see you