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The Future of Privacy - Scaling, Adoption and Innovation
Recorded: April 3, 2025 Duration: 1:09:49Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, industry leaders explored the future of privacy in blockchain, highlighting Anima's $2.5 million fundraising success, Inmax's upcoming mainnet launch, and Coalipay's innovative approach to humanitarian aid through privacy-focused blockchain solutions.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi everyone. Yes, absolutely.
Thank you all for joining today's space.
We're just here to invite two more speakers to our space.
Really excited for an amazing one hour ahead.
The topic today is about the future of privacy,
scaling, adoption, and innovation.
We have amazing projects starting from Anima,
Mycell Foundation, Inmax,
and also EPFL Organization and
QualiPay as well here for you today.
Just give us a few minutes to definitely enable
two to three more speakers and we're
really excited for the conversation to start.
Thank you. Amazing. We almost have all of the speakers left today.
Just give us a few more minutes
and we're really excited to start. Thank you so much for joining us today.
All right. I think we're ready to start. Thank you so much, everyone, for your time.
So my name is Samir Aghwan. I'm one of the marketing leaders at Inmax. Really exciting day today with Trump announcing tariffs.
The market is definitely reacting. But before that, we're really excited to begin today's
AMA. So what is the purpose of today's AMA? We're really looking to kind of recenter privacy
as part of the global crypto narrative. And We're really excited to have a variety of projects here today starting from Anima,
one of the giants in the privacy space.
They have recently closed their 2.5 million fundraising round as well.
We also have Mycell Foundation,
one of the core use cases of privacy,
and obviously Inmax L2 is
scalable and privacy-centered protocol.
And at the same time, we have different stakeholders in this space. We have a student organization, EPFL, from Swiss University as well.
And we also have some charity use cases of privacy as well.
So the reason why we're having this space, hopefully this will be revealed with the way that our speakers are going to start our AMA today,
is really to show that privacy is something that cannot be taken for granted.
It's a human right, but also within the context of blockchain,
there are really important enterprise applications for DeFi, for AI,
and also for the payments protocol, which is what Inmax is focused on today.
So today we'll just get started with introductions.
We'll start first with Mr. Leona Hioki,
the co-founder of Inmax Protocol.
Mr. Leona, please.
Hi, Leona, are you there?
Just want to confirm that everyone can hear me. Just in case, I think, Mai, please go ahead and introduce yourself
in Inmax Protocol.
Yes, Leona, you have speaker rights. Please go ahead and speak yourself in Inmax Protocol. Thank you. Yes, Leona, you have speaker rights.
Please go ahead and speak.
Thank you so much.
Okay, it seems that Leona has a small hiccup.
I think we'll head right into Adrian.
So we're really excited to have a giant like Adrian,
one of the KOLs within the privacy space and has built
one of the most exciting DeFi intent
architecture-based ecosystems in the market right now.
Adrian, please go ahead and share a bit more about Anima,
and also your ecosystem and also the current roadmap as well.
Thank you so much.
There you go. Fantastic.
I can actually unmute myself.
I was just saying to write this in the chat. There you go. Fantastic. I can actually unmute myself.
I was just saying to write this in the chat.
Cool. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, I'm Adrian. I am one of the co-founders of Anoma and Nomada.
Very fundamentally, I care about building sovereign antifedible systems.
It just happens that intents are by far the best technical abstraction or to make this work um and that they're also the right structure to actually enable privacy at scale um because they are very they allow you to reason about how data moves
between many different end devices and many different users and what those whether users want
to reveal some data all the data none of the data this is really not possible in transaction centric
system because if you do this in transaction like for example if you want to have private trading
and transaction centric system you just don't have any kind of high discovery whereas an intent centric
system you can structure your system so that
at least a subset of people can talk to each other
and figure out whether this intersects or not.
Yeah, that's amazing.
I think for the audience here today,
we have a variety. We have crypto developers,
we have builders, and we also have researchers in
this audience ranging from Africa to APAC.
It would be amazing to hear from you, Adrian,
and future questions to understand how privacy
and counterparty risk is really important
and also a bit more about Namada
and the core product use cases there as well.
But really excited and thank you so much
for having yourself today in this space.
And now I'd love to hand it over back to Leona.
I think he would be able to speak to share a bit more
about Inmax
and how they're also pioneering an amazing,
scalable privacy network as well.
Please, Mr. Leona, thank you so much.
Hi, everyone.
Yes, thanks for joining today.
I'm Leona from Inmax.
I'm doing scaling and privacy stuff.
Basically, we are scaling Ethereum for payment,
which is totally privacy preserving.
We love privacy.
I think it's quite our essential feature
regarding the payments on property rights in general.
Yeah, Intimax, it's been a while.
We researched many things about Plasma, you know, yeah, you know, Intimax, it's been a while how we are, you know, we researched
many things about Plasma, maybe Adrian as well, you know, we had a great speaker in
the PlasmaCon last year, and, you know, during the layer two or scaling research space, it's
been a while how we've struggled to square
scale up this area more the other blockchains but yeah the piracy scaling
privacy is quite new stuff still and privacy on scarcity having boss is quite
difficult still and what this is what we are kind of tackling right now and
basically we are achieving right now.
So I'd love to share more things about the main launch of Inmax next month.
But yeah, I'm really happy to be here.
And I'm super excited to talk with today's guests.
Amazing. I think Inmax has been really moving very forward in its technical roadmap. From what I understand, we have recently going to be launching a beta launch of a privacy mining campaign. And it's one of the best ways that DeFi users can actually take advantage of privacy and actually earn from the future ITX token as well. So really excited to promote that as well in today's space.
to promote that as well in today's space. Now I'd love to hand over to Aki from MySol Foundation.
Please share a bit more about what you're building on the Anemo network and also what
are the use cases of privacy. Back to you.
So I think Aki joined from her own account and could you accept her as a speaker?
Yes. Yes, yes. Thank you.
Yes, she has been given access.
While we're doing that as well, we're very happy to kind of move on to the next speaker.
So now I think we'd love to hear from Gustav from the the Swiss University student
organization BSA.
Please share a bit more about yourself
and what interests you about privacy
while I bring up Aki as well.
Thanks.
Hi, everyone.
I hope you can hear me well.
So I'm Gustave,
an undergraduate student at EPSL.
And over the past few months and years,
I've been working on privacy-related stuff.
So on the one side with our
blockchain club we we are like 30 30 uh guys in biosphere masters uh trying to understand work
with brands or anything um about things related but privacy and um and on on my side i've been working on aztec which
uh is quite fine because it's it seems like it's the it's the last one remaining from from the big
guys in privacy uh but i i absolutely won't be speaking on behalf of aztec but i've been working
in aztec for for the past uh eight months building building building some tools actually for institutions
on behalf of another company called Taurus,
which is a Swiss company.
And on the other side,
I also do some research on verifiable computation
for now on FHE.
That's amazing.
I think when it comes to Aztec,
we would love to talk about it because we really want to understand what are the differentiated use cases
and what are the remaining technical challenges within the privacy system as well.
And here, I think, finally, I think, Aki, you have speaker access.
Please go ahead if you can hear us as well.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much.
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much. Thank you so much.
Yeah, okay, please go ahead. Please introduce yourself and MyCell as well. Thank you. I'm co-founder of MyCell.
The core concept of MyCell is like transfer account,
which is you can transfer your account to others or swapping ownership accounts
on our platform that lets us use a move any kind of asset across different consensus blockchain
by transferring or swapping ownership of the account. And also we are trying to build a privacy preserving order book exchange with
Anomo intent machine by leveraging account transfer protocol. Thank you.
That's amazing. Again, an amazing use case of Anomo protocol built by Adrian here as well.
And also it really shows that within DeFi, which is where a lot of transaction and volume heads
into as well,
privacy is a very important architectural problem
that the cutting edge projects here are trying to solve.
Last but not least, we have Mr. Alejandro from Qualipay.
It's really exciting to hear a bit more
about your use case in the real world.
Please share a bit more about this as well.
Thanks everybody. I'm super excited to be here. I'm really glad for the invitation.
So my name is Alejandro. I'm the head of strategy and operations at a company called Coalipay.
That's Coalipay with a C, sorry, Coalipay.org. And Coalipay was created by humanitarians
to help overcome some of the longstanding barriers in cross-border humanitarian aid delivery.
And those include things like high transaction costs, payment delays, and some of the limited financial visibility.
We built a blockchain-powered platform designed specifically
for the humanitarian aid sector,
making it easier and faster for aid organizations
to channel resources where they're needed most
with strong traceability, compliance, and privacy
at the core of what we do.
So we basically help donors, fund managers,
implementing partners, get funds to ground faster,
more transparently and with lower risk. And we use blockchain tools
while still respecting the high compliance
and protection needs of humanitarian context.
And currently we have an ongoing
major earthquake response in Myanmar,
for those of you who have following news on it.
And we have a very specific use case
that we're very happy to share
with the listeners today.
And thanks for having us.
Yeah, absolutely.
It just shows that privacy and blockchain
are very compatible needs,
especially when it comes to solving, you know,
humanitarian needs and use cases as well.
And really excited to hear from you, Alejandro, very soon.
All right, so we'll kickstart the space officially.
So our first question here will be to Mr. Leona,
again, the co-founder of Inmax.
So going back to your original point there
that scalability and privacy
has been seen as competing priorities.
Firstly, could you share with us
why these are competing priorities
in blockchain infrastructure and building in DeFi as well?
And secondly, how does Inmac specifically approach solving this issue?
And what do you think about the industry, including our peers here,
and really finding a real long-term solution that balances both?
Yeah, it's contradicting privacy and security,
let's say cheap gas cost or something like that,
simply because privacy is additional computation, right?
So if you encrypt something,
you will have additional computation, right?
So on the example, I heard that, yeah,
the GUS is doing something FHE.
FHE is getting more and more faster recently,
but yeah, it's much, much slower than usual computation.
So yeah, encryption and doing some operation,
doing some calculation with data encrypted,
it's something much harder than usual computation. It's kind of general
stuff. So to avoid that,
basically, we need to
kind of push
that cost to another
person, right?
So, for example,
usual blockchains
are like, okay, for example,
Monero. Monero have a strong privacy
or GCash has a strong privacy.
And it's less scalable than Bitcoin, let's say, in terms of capacity.
So Monero has eight times bigger data than Bitcoin has for each transaction.
So, yeah, if nodes need to do something with privacy It's much more scalable. So users
need to do additional computation for their transactions and also data
preservation. But they can do that by themselves. And the nodes can maintain themselves as a kind of slim and optimized database, what we call blockchain, right?
So basically, pushing that burden to the client-user side is the answer to make it kind of scalable.
side is the answer to make it kind of scalable.
And Node is somehow kind of, let's say, I don't say centralized, but it's kind of much,
much smaller number than number of users, right?
For example, Bitcoin's 20,000 nodes and Ethereum, 5,000 nodes.
And this number is much, much smaller than the number of users. Of course, number
of users are like 10 million or maybe a lot less than a billion or something like that.
So node is limited. The capacity of node is limited. So push the burden from node to client side is a way to make it more scalable and basically, you know, kind of, it's what we call parallelization.
The node can be helped by users and clients.
So this is their inbox architecture. are in max architecture and yeah i i don't explain that it's there only one way to achieve
privacy and scaring at the same time but yeah actually right now it's only one founded way
to achieve both of them in my opinion that's really fascinating and and when you say that it's
it really pushes the burden on the client side,
I just want to understand what is the impact for applications, right?
Because I think recently Inmax has released the beta launch and client SDK.
And one of the advantages of Inmax is the stable and low transaction fees.
So could you share a bit more about that as well?
So, yeah, it has more scalability, and yeah, we preserve privacy. So this should be another trade-off, right?
So as a functionality, we have less functionality, and more scalability and more privacy.
Everybody can see any kind of trade-off in this space because space resources are quite limited
as a computation resources.
And so, yeah, let's say
we have a more payment-focused usability
and more simple usability
with extreme privacy, completed privacy
and extreme scalability.
So we can make almost zero fee and constant zero fee,
near zero fee.
Instead of that, we can compromise
or sacrifice some kind of functionality
like RV compound type lending or something like that.
So, yeah, what we are focusing on right now
is extreme scalable, globally adaptable payment network,
which is totally lacking in a certain space.
And basically, we are the perfect piece for that.
At the same time, we don't compete with the other Layeredus
or privacy solutions in terms of functionality
or similarity or how DeFi friendly
they are and how
DeFi, let's say
unfriendly our state-based architecture
is, yeah, depends on
that how we are something
kind of going a
different way from the other
layers or kind of
most of the blockchain
and scaling solutions.
Thank you, Leona. I think this is a perfect opportunity to talk about Anima as well with
you, Mr. Adrian. I think Anima, just to give some background to, and Namada as well, to the audience,
Anima is a groundbreaking framework for building decentralized applications. And what's really
interesting, just to link back to what we mentioned about pushing the burden on the client side,
is really the intent-centric model of transaction-based outcomes within Anima.
And this has been really successful.
And secondly, also speaking of data preservation,
Namada has been a really exciting Cosmos-based layer one
and has a primary feature of the multi-asset shielded pool,
which allows users to conceal the details of the asset holdings as well.
So Adrian, just going back into you, because you have built essentially a fantastic ecosystem with
cohort one, just want to really check in with you. Can a modular framework be the best solution for
privacy or a monolithic one, similar to what Inmax L2 is building. And secondly, could you also share use cases
or excellent cohorts building in cohort one of Anima
as well for this use case as well?
Thanks.
Yes, absolutely.
So I think there are a couple of aspects to this.
And I think the sort of like when i think about this
it is very difficult to retrofit privacy into every existing application at the moment so
i think at a very fundamental level needing something having something like the model that gives you the
ability to retrofit privacy um through its modular architecture into the rest of sort of the existing
ecosystem is something that's going to be fundamentally needed right because we're not
going to upgrade every single application that has been deployed in the last 10 10 years essentially
um to leverage privacy natively. I think that
is just unrealistic to expect this.
On the other side
it's also important that
when you start building new applications
you actually start really
thinking about
you don't necessarily want
privacy from everyone. Different people
have different requirements as
to maybe they just want to keep things private within their local like they want to keep
things transparent for the local community but private to the rest of the world things like this
and so this is really actually something that uh a norma enables where instead of saying this these
are the global rules and they're just given by the protocol and you must follow
them. By having this very anti-fragile approach means that local communities can spin up their
own version of Anoma with their own capabilities. And I think this is, I think people, I like to
think about this from sort of World War III, where once the internet breaks down i want some local coordination
infrastructure in switzerland so that i can still pay for coffee even when we lose connectivity to
like aws in the us right but i think also from the privacy perspective the way i think about it is
like most countries will want to enforce some form of sanction compliance and that's actually okay
the current problems that
blockchains face is that they essentially must pick a single global model right like you either
adhere to the u.s but you'd certainly not adhere to north korean sanctions or chinese sanctions
and i think this is actually the trick that we have many sovereign systems each that enforce
their own sort of policies over what's acceptable behavior or not.
And I think without this very modular approach
that is sort of particularly sovereign and antifragile,
this is going to be very difficult to make this work in practice.
This is really fascinating.
So how do you balance this, firstly, antifragility
and also ensuring that there's multiple subsovereign models in local communities.
That's a really very, I would say, abstract aspect.
Could you share with us some kind of use cases within applications for us to really see the impact as well?
Absolutely.
I mean, so this anti-fragility sovereign model is not only important in terms of privacy,
but it's also actually very fundamentally when you think about latency.
If there's like you and your friends are in a room together, or you want to figure out
who to, who pays for the beers, this is not something that requires global consensus.
And as such, it makes no sense to like pay the global latency costs to ping to some sort
of global network of validators. And it also doesn't, like, it's not reasonable to pay the cost of global total ordering, right?
Like, and it's also never going to be faster than you doing this thing locally in the room.
Like Solana can never be faster than Anoma.
Anoma is like hyper-optimized in that sense that depending on what you want from the application,
like if the only thing that you really care about,
ah, you figure out with your five friends how to settle a bill, you do this locally.
And then maybe you communicate the results globally.
I don't know.
This is then up to you.
The other really nice property here is that
whenever you want to be private especially in trading you have to decide that you want you
probably need to reveal something right like you could say i'm not willing to reveal who i am or
what i want to trade but you probably won't find any counterparty that that wants to take the
opposite side um so the actual trick to privacy and trading is that on when you
discover counterpipes with whom to interact you can decide that you only want to sort of broadcast
that intent to a subset of the market um and this is actually the sort of trick to how my cell is
building the privacy preserving decks here where like on the gossip layer you need to decide that
maybe i'm only willing to send this to May
and not to everyone else.
And maybe if May doesn't respond to me in the next five minutes,
then I sort of broad my intent broadcast.
But if she does, then I take her intent, I take my intent, I combine it.
And then we just settle sort of the final result
without revealing what it was or who it was,
just that it balanced in the overall scheme of things.
Yeah, that's really fascinating that you brought up MySol
because actually when you think about it
within trading strategies,
having privacy is an economic advantage.
The ability to not open up your position
beyond the millisecond that is required
to then generate alpha.
So it's really exciting to see how this is operationalized
in the Anemo network and within the micelle
decks as well.
And we'll get to that in a second.
So thank you so much, Adrian, for your inputs.
We'll love to head over to Gustav to kind of take us back into a macro perspective,
because when we look at competing ideologies really about what privacy can exist, Adrian,
just to summarize, shared about how it's really about enabling a decentralization and self-sufficiency,
and at the same time allowing
local communities to have access and
sovereignty over the multiple data endpoints as well.
On the other side, Inmax Protocol,
what they're building is a much more distributed payment layer,
which is very important for
transaction settlement and global trade as well. In your eyes eyes, Gustav, I hope you're here as well. I just want to understand
what is the future of privacy-focused blockchain solutions in the market right now? And what do
you see as the biggest challenge preventing mainstream adoption? I think with these very
strong protocols, it's showing that it is possible and very
soon, in fact. Back to you, Gustaf.
Yeah.
Yeah, so this is kind of a very broad question, but on the one side, you can answer this question
very simply, even if it's very broad because you can say well um tools about
privacy have been built for the past 20 years um and most of the time mainstream users um
don't really care which that is the truth and um but but governments, agencies, institutions, associations do care about privacy.
So there is a market for it, there is a need for it.
Although as some mainstream, the global mainstream do not realize it or do not specifically want it i mean we can see that um instead of going to
inmax or to anoma or to aztec or any privacy layer they would rather go to the place where
there's more meme coins or where there's the highest um return that you can make so
um uh return that you can make so yeah on the micro perspective um awareness might be for the
retail user um the biggest uh thing to do um and and i think with spaces like this and the and the
other cool stuff this can be achieved um that that's on the on the retail side on the institution side i think adrian um
covered most of it and and you also um by talking about uh the fact that banks and the trading firms
do trade on private data and the their their advantage is on the fact that their strategy is private so
they would never go to a public blockchain to to execute to execute their trades and and
we have already seen with the work that I've done over the past nine months of Taurus, which was on creating a private token for institutions.
So Taurus already had a private token for institutions on which they can create that and or other kinds of financial assets.
But it wasn't private.
We built it privately on Aztec, and we've seen very positive feedback.
So clearly institutions want this.
Now, what is a blocker still?
I would say there's a few blockers and and uh quite frankly also um
adrian has already answered a few of them which is which is nice we can see that
anoma really may have pointed out some some pain points on on what was built before with privacy and may have some solutions.
But I would say so that there's what I'd call a regularization interface, which is locking, which is something that we've seen over the past few years with Tornado
Cache on the simple fact that if you used another cache
your address was frozen by um certain uh stable coins like usdc um so the the work i did uh brought
me to say well i i want to use tornado cache notca, it's not because I'm a bad person,
not because I did anything wrong,
just because I want to protect my privacy,
which is totally fair.
It's written in most constitutions.
So what can you do on this side?
That's a huge problem, a huge question actually,
that may have solutions,
but they're not there yet, let's say.
So what if I want to use Intmax,
then Anoma technology, then AS technology,
and well, now the US government has frozen my my assets on a specific stable
so that's that's a problem even though I did nothing wrong actually and that's a
problem which has a solution we you a technological solution actually let's
let's see if it has a legislation legislative solution, that's another point, but a technology solution is today pretty doable
with proofs and zero knowledge proofs
and other kinds of technologies.
Another question, so this was the first problem
that still needs to be answered, I'd say, on the micro perspective.
Another problem that needs to be solved is, all right, once we have achieved this regularization interface where governments and institutions agree that there is a privacy state,
a private state on the blockchain
or actually on anyone's life and a public state.
And there is a known interface in between them
that works fine.
Now that we have this, what do we do
when we are in a state of law
and you are in a trial and want to access
the encrypted data today's solutions the user has to
share this data with the institution with the regulatory body which might cause some problems in this state of law a user can say I refuse to give this data which legally shouldn't be acceptable.
And so the other question raised is
if everything is encrypted and no evidence can be shown,
what is the solution?
Do you put the back door?
This relates to what Adrian was saying
about programming regulation in a modular way for
different countries.
Do you put a backdoor, a specialized backdoor for every country?
This is too much of a burden.
And this actually doesn't bring us any further from where we actually were regarding trust
assumptions.
Like this big intelligence government companies that spy on your devices even
though they should not and they have no reason to um so again we with the current technology
this is something we can surely do and again it has not been done because obviously there's um
not been done because obviously there's the building blocks that need to be created and
after the building blocks are there then these questions can be answered but can we limit the
numbers of views of an issuer can we have legal independent regulation regulatory regulatory and then the regulatory bodies that have a backdoor
but not government bodies, what is the solution there?
And so, yeah, this was two of my big problems that I raised,
big questions that I raised while I was working on implementing this talking contract.
And so for me, one of the end games is a proof generation layer and verification layer,
which coordinate between them with intents, which tell me Adrien if I'm totally wrong,
but it's something that could be doable,
for example, on Anomo.
And yeah, this is a cool end game, I'd say,
where you can do DeFi on Aztec
and send fans to your family on 8 Max because it's way faster.
All this with proofs, intents, and the coordination layer, which could be Anoma, for example.
Definitely doable.
If you want to build it, hit me up.
It's such an amazing question.
And I think I just want to kind of ask this to all the speakers here in the panel before we head on to the scheduled agenda, right, just to get this a bit more spontaneous.
So to really, you know, question, would we ever reach a situation theoretically where, you know, global regulations actually fully recognize the, you know, the human right to privacy?
And also, in this case, how do we solve the problems that, you know,
Gustav mentioned of regulatory backdoors?
I mean, I'm just very open to hearing if any other speakers have any thoughts about this,
especially Adrian or Mr.
Leona and anyone as well. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, from my side, actually, I think the traditional financial system is mostly
soft, right? The traditional financial system, every country has its own setup under which some sort of agencies can request financial data.
They are vastly different between Switzerland, Germany, the US, Singapore, China, you name it.
Vastly different regulatory regimes about how to access genuine crypto data.
And I think we will see similar things i i just actually think that
we will i think we're not going to stay in this world of there's just a couple of global consensus
mechanisms um because this is generally not how the world works right like we don't have one
government we have about 180 190 countries
and so i think the blockchain landscape will evolve into this but every major country runs
kind of like its own software chain it just happens to be also capable of interoperating
and interfacing with the rest of the world um on the sort of global standards like
talk global consensus i think global consensus these like when you think ethereum
that's the community and i think there we are yet to see exactly what this plays out maybe
the global consensus maybe the global consensus instances like a global anoma instances will
for example follow the swiss rules maybe because not in the sense that they have to but more like
they will probably they probably pick some reasonable set of rules that they go sure we
can adopt similar things in order to maintain access to sort of your specific system or maybe
some global instances just go you know what this is very cyberpunk and we do what we want um but then it may mean that those
assets have a much harder time moving across stress boundaries ie from like the global system
into global ethereum into global anoma um into impacts um into then a local instance right so i
think this is like i can very much see how this plays out as in many
many different chains like hundreds and hundreds of chains that each roughly have their own local
setup and then a number of global chains but especially for the global chains i think it's
yet to be seen exactly what rules that they'll follow or if they follow any at all like honestly
it's hard to say it's interesting aki just want to check if you have any at all. Like, honestly, it's hard to say.
It's interesting.
Aki, I just want to check if you have any responses to that as well or
Mr. Leona as well.
Yeah, I think that
there are kind of
two types of privacy, like
the cheap privacy
or expensive privacy.
So, you know, if
central banks
or some
big funds or
kind of
buy side, sell side, I don't know.
What we call institutions are
dealing with big money and they
should be concealed because of their
strategy. The strategy should be concealed because of their strategy.
Strategy should be
concealed all the time.
It happens everywhere.
this kind of billion-level privacy
on the
other hand, we have a cheap privacy
like I don't want people
to see what I'm watching,
which website I'm watching,
or the other people would say the same thing, I guess.
This is kind of cheap privacy.
Obviously, we have two types of privacy like that.
The problem is like that.
The problem is we cannot distinguish the cheap privacy and expensive privacy.
So, yeah, institutions, yeah, we can see that like institutions
or kind of jurisdiction like, yeah, difference like USA and Russia, China,
they have different law enforcement and they need privacy in the same context or different contexts, I don't know. But yeah, maybe this kind of political level privacy
should be mixed with quite cheap privacy like I have, for example.
Because if people can know that this is expensive privacy
or cheap privacy, it's already starting,
their privacy is breaking, right?
So basically, we need to mix them up.
And the crypto and the web itself should mix them up.
So for example, HTTPS, they're mixing all the privacy right now.
So they're quite a huge level of kind of expensive private transaction.
huge level of expensive
private transaction
equally concealed
in our
cheap privacy.
This should be
aligned like that
way.
Let's say we can
see many types of
privacy like
legal privacy,
political privacy, like legal privacy, political privacy, expensive privacy, cheap privacy, and let's say, or right privacy, or wrong privacy.
No, we need to conceive them all.
And yeah, that's my thought.
So yeah, we can think about the type of privacy,
but yeah, anyway, we need to hide them all.
So that's my kind of design mind.
And yeah, that's what I want to talk about.
Mr. Leona, I think we have to say you're one of the titans in the space of privacy
and really would love to have another AMA just dedicated towards your views alone.
Now, I'd love to share a bit more about Aki as well.
So Aki, you're building one of the very interesting trading use cases of privacy-focused decks.
creating use cases of privacy focused decks.
Very fascinating. Please tell us more.
Please tell us more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So before explaining myself,
and I want to point that Leona says,
I think it's a protocol level of privacy.
It's made equality.
Like, so we are working on the privacy preserving order book text. So what is privacy I think it's different. It's a main use case is like
hiding order flow from the other traders.
So I think privacy on the order flow
has potential to somewhat
correct the distortion of capitalism, especially the price
manipulation by the big traders like oil traders. So I think let's say that oil traders want to buy 1000 is like a huge amount of each but doesn't want to the
signal there's the interested and they drive up this price so what they do is like so they place
visible cell wall like of 500 let's say 500 each slide which is slightly above the market price.
The other traders see this appointment as selling pressures.
They see as a disordered selling pressures and they sell their ETH at the lower prices,
which means allowing traders to accumulate cheaply before removing their selling wall, which they never intend to execute.
This is, I think, a big problem in the market, I guess.
I guess.
And especially in the crypto, usually we don't have enough liquidity.
So it's easy to manipulate the price by the huge traders, I guess.
That's so interesting.
Just to follow up on that, Aki, so you're saying that right now, the problem with these
market manipulation is usually that we don't have enough information.
But you're saying that with privacy, somehow we can actually create better information, better pricing in markets.
Yes. orders on order books that make it private. So let's say we can see who put order in which prices.
So this makes, like, it makes prevent the price manipulation like so um
amazing thank you that that's really fascinating uh we'll come this is an interesting point right
like something like this like is a given in traditional markets yeah the fact that not
everyone sees every order flow and it's a little bit ridiculous that honestly at this point
no one in crypto like has not built this like currently we have this for like with flash bots
i don't know like a couple of dudes that keep running these privileged uh order book trip points
um but this is why this is i think going to be the next big unlock actually yeah
I think it's going to be the next big unlock, actually.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Aki, we'll get right to you in a second,
and we'd love to showcase and talk about your upcoming product
roadmap, but just want to share if there's
anything else you'd like to contribute to the conversation
before we wrap up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we are currently working on the billing exchange
that can trade any kind of asset on any blockchains.
So we are working with several partners in real-world cases, especially in cross-chain trading,
where privacy is critical for price discoveries.
Great. Nice, you have sound effects. Yeah, that was amazing.
Absolutely.
So Alejandro, finally back to you.
So I think we really want to answer the question why privacy is important, even outside of DeFi and trading context as well.
So how does Koala Pay protect owner privacy while maintaining transparency and fund allocation to local NGOs? And could you share a bit more about the recent campaign that you're fundraising as well? Thank you.
Hi Alejandro, can you hear me?
Can you guys hear me? Yeah, we can hear you now.
Great.
Great.
So, no, thanks again for having us.
And we really appreciate the support from the M-Max team to bring us into this conversation
today.
So, and, you know, as we're following along, I think to help ground the discussion in a
real world example, let me share a bit of how we're supporting the current earthquake
response in Myanmar and why we think privacy is absolutely central to enabling it.
So, you know, following the 7.7 earthquake that just occurred last Thursday evening with thousands dead and thousands more injured and trapped under rubble qualifiers,
working on supporting vetted fund managers to deliver support to local responders that are providing critical services like emergency medical aid, temporary shelter, mental health support. And in the case of Myanmar, part of why we want to
share that, you know, the demands for privacy by design is let me take just a second to explain
why Myanmar isn't just a complex context, but it's a dangerous context for many to operate in.
So since the 2021 military coup, there's been a military junta in charge of the context that has treated civil society and independent relief work as hostile.
Aid workers are regularly detained or tortured if seen to be connected to international actors.
Young people face forced conscription and entire communities can often be punished for just receiving outside help.
So funders operating inside the junta control, even if they're supporting medical, humanitarian work,
risk sanctions, shutdowns, or political retaliation.
And that's why privacy isn't a feature here.
It's actually a survival strategy.
It protects the people delivering aid
and those enabling them to do it.
And we aim to support this effort
by helping vet and onboard trusted local groups,
helping set up compliance mechanisms
and payment rails and secure wallets with them
and coordinating smart contract-based disbursements
across blockchain networks
so that we can support discrete off-ramping as well
so responders can use funds in local currency.
And all of this happens within our ring finance environment
where all participants, funders, intermediaries,
local responders go through due diligence like KYC, anti-monit laundering and sanction screening before being whitelisted to transact.
So, you know, as we work through this, how are we enabling transparency without exposure?
Well, we use smart contracts to execute payments on chain, benefiting obviously from the pseudonymity of wallets,
while aiming to maintain full traceability and auditability of funds flows.
And every funded project generates a proof of funding NFT, which aims to capture things
like intervention type, emergency health, mental health, water, admin level locations
without GPS or facility names, and estimated beneficiaries in amounts dispersed.
And these NFT anchors are public impact dashboards would provide donors and stakeholders for real time transparency, but aim to never expose sensitive identities or operational
data that could expose responders.
And that field layer security and usability.
We support local responders and to set up privacy conscious wallets, use trusted off
ramp providers receiving funds and digital assets, say like USDC, and safely convert them
to local currency for operational use.
And here it's really important that we prioritize off-ramp channels based on discretion, reliability
and security so local groups can operate effectively even in constrained or monitoring environments.
And so why this matters for the future of Privacy First Layer 2s, for example, you know, this
live deployment in Myanmar right now is showing the power and necessity of Privacy First layer twos, for example, you know, this live deployment in Myanmar right now is showing the power and necessity of privacy first architecture on
blockchain. We don't think that we need to choose between transparency and protection.
We think we need systems that allow for selective disclosure, modular compliance, and even programmable
traceability without exposing sensitive actors or flows. So for Koala Pay, privacy isn't about
anonymity for its own sake. It's about enabling trust, safety, and scale in humanitarian funding
context. And we're super happy to share this experience here. And for those that are curious,
the Myanmar campaign is live right now with traceable funding flowing to local responders
across multiple chains. And we'll make sure to put up one of the campaign pages of one of our funding partners that's
receiving donations on crypto for people that would like to support and channel donations
through there.
So, yeah, super happy to put this here to the forum and be able to discuss a bit more
of the real world use case.
But thanks again.
Yeah, thank you, Alejandro.
And so please post the link, the place we can donate in our chat.
And of course, what cryptocurrency, why cryptocurrency is beautiful is because we can help each other all over the world. And now there are very, very big damage.
And of course, we need to support and we can support.
And thank you for sharing and thank you for working hard for the people.
And of course, I'm personally, I'm happy to support.
And yeah, this is the first step.
And the next step, we can help as a privacy protocol because
privacy is a way to protect the people and some you know um yeah some people if they don't have
privacy they face the danger and it's not uh how can i say allowed sorry sorry my English, it's not allowed because people are
helping for
each other but some people attack
them, it's not
I cannot believe that
and I want to make a
privacy for the people so let's
work together in the future
and let's work
what we can do now
that is a donate and I will happy to donate.
And yeah, again, please share the link with us.
Yeah. Thank you very much for joining us today.
Amazing. Thank you so much, Alejandro.
So just to let our audience know it's koala.pay.org,
koala with a C.
If you have any available crypto, please consider donating
for a great cause as well. Thank you, Alejandro.
So now we just have a few five minutes.
So we'd love to kind of extend the floor back to our speakers.
So we can start with Aki from Mycel.
Could you please share any exciting updates and community milestones that our community
and the privacy market should know about as well?
Over to you. Yeah, so we're gonna launch our first Dex on the list soon.
So let's try and keep forward updates on our X account, which is at my site.
Amazing. Adrian, please, to you as well, which is at my same way. So thank you.
Amazing. Adrian, please, to you as well, for Namada and Anoma as well. Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, for Anoma, the depth of the lives of first intent initiates are there.
So if you're a builder, get involved.
We have over 100 teams right now in the ecosystem just hacking away and building very cool shit, all the way from public impact projects to privacy-preserving DEXs to just very good infrastructure for multi-chain trading.
So get involved there.
Also, keep your eyes out.
We may be launching more and more programs
in the coming weeks and
months. So if you're
curious about the next Frontier, get it.
It's all along.
Amazing. Thank you.
Great. Gus, over to you.
Oh, yeah.
So I don't have specific updates for any projects but i i had a question
for alejandro um so i think it's it's amazing what you're what you guys are building uh
if i understood correctly um uh for now you you only have a pseudonymity for the local bodies that you're helping which
means for example that if if Myanmar I don't think it's the case but if you
Myanmar had a large intelligence or maybe it's the case actually a large
intelligence company they could try to infer addresses to helping local bodies.
So that could be a problem, right?
And so I guess, Eidmax and the other privacy solutions are there to prevent this in the future, right?
Yeah, that's a really great question. Absolutely.
I mean, we're really excited to work with potential partners like Eidmax
and others building specific technology on blockchain to support creating these safe and secure pathways.
Of course, we understand that the chain connections and the traceability that's created for fund flows is important.
It's important for transparency and traceability.
and traceability, but in high complex environments like Myanmar for both donors and recipients,
solutions that can help, you know, potentially create distance from endpoint wallets, especially
when contacting exchanges, you know, and local off-ramping networks is a really important
mechanism to help safeguard the, you know, the safety of local responders and civil society
groups and those types of contacts. So it's something that we're working on actively and very much looking for partners to help us in that journey.
So, yeah, a very pointed and good question.
I just take the opportunity that, you know, as Coalipay, we're actually not the ones receiving donations directly.
Directly, we help fund other organizations.
We help fund other organizations that are setting up those channels.
We help organizations that are setting up those channels.
So for the specific campaign that we mentioned,
it's great if people have interest.
It's quake.myanmarblockchainrelief.org.
And we'll make sure to post that as well.
But thanks, everybody.
Thanks so much. Amazing.
Thank you, Alejandro.
And just to wrap up, last but not least,
I'm with Leona.
Could you please share the recent updates
for InMax Protocol as well? Thanks.
Oh, yeah.
So we're going to launch mainnet in May,
middle of May.
Before that, we are about to launch our beta testnet,
which is totally our same code base
as our mainnet launch.
So yeah, basically we are ready. Almost there.
Yeah,
we have an amazing speaker here.
There are people working on actual stuff for privacy.
And yeah, we can
be part of that differently.
We can
help their
projects, privacy projects,
or any kind of way we can start helping them,
helping you guys.
Basically, from the testnet,
we have our Monero Gcache-level privacy,
and at the same time,
we have almost Lightning Network-level scalability
at the same time.
Again, we don't have heavy functionality
like
Solidity or EVM,
but our protocol
is quite
usable in many
use cases in terms of
payment on simple use cases.
So, yeah,
really ready to be connected to the projects on what you're planning. I'm really ready to be connected to all the projects
and what you're planning.
I'm really happy to join your project
and be part of your kind of protocols.
And now I'm talking to the great speakers here
and also the audience who have projects on payment issues.
So, yeah, thanks so much.
Amazing. Thank you all for your time.
Really appreciate our speakers once again.
We have Mr. Adrian Brink from Anima and Namada.
We also have Gustav Charles from EPFL Organization.
We have Aki from MySol Foundation and Alejandro,
head of strategic operations at Quality.
And last but not least, Leona and my co-founders at Inmax Protocol.
Thank you all for your time and stay tuned for further updates in the space.
We'll be ending the space now. Thank you so much.
Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
