Hello everyone, can you hear me okay? We're just waiting for another one of our speakers
and we'll get started in a couple of minutes.
loading clear I can hear you thank you sir
and we have Rushi and I think with that we have everyone we need to get started so welcome
everybody to this extra special every single episode is extra special but this one too even
more so episode of the lookout episode two this is a space hosted here by Angus and Terry
so I'll let Angus take it away hello GM welcome everyone to the lookout second episode episode
two of the lookout as George said there every single episode that we have will be special
we're going to try and have guests for you every week but we are very excited to have
really exciting guests this week in particular I'm going to do an introduction of the show
to start with and then I'll introduce our guests but some of you may have seen from the tweets
that we've put out our guests today we've got Rushi and David from VM Wars podcast there's
actually a third member of their team on the podcast so hopefully we can get them on sometime
as well or maybe have all three of you back sometime depending on how this week goes
I'm just kidding right so everyone who's here you may or may not have tuned in before to
look out we it's a new weekly Twitter space that we've started the lookout is a location
in the Dragon Ball Z universe it's a giant platform that's in geostationary orbit above
the planet that the action takes place on in that anime and we are kind of on a metaphorical
lookout on this Twitter space we're looking down from a high level on the whole industry
to with different builders and leaders and interesting people talking about technical
aspects and trends in the blockchain industry so that's the kind of idea behind the space
we're really lucky today to have two guests who are going to have a lot to talk about
see with smart contract development you may or may not know me as well my name is Angus
I lead developer relations for the say blockchain and we obviously have lots of exciting things to
share with developers coming up in the pipeline as well some of you may be familiar with some
of those things I'm joined today by my co-host Terry who may it doesn't look like on my screen
he's been given permission to speak so I don't know he might come on and say hi later though
and without further ado let's get into this so so basically the schedule for today we're
going to have a discussion with Rushi and David and then after that we're going to have a bit of
Q&A and you can ask some questions either in the kind of Twitter spaces chat or you can
can tweet one of us and also follow all of us on Twitter that's an important thing to mention
I'll be obviously saying that constantly throughout the episode but you should all follow
all the speakers on Twitter as well so without any more hesitation let's get our speakers
introduced Rushi you go first and also test your microphone hey guys I'm Rushi co-founder of
movement labs my background is engineering so starting my career in distributed systems and
kind of day-based engineering and I got into the app space pretty early on was building the
first text at Aptos really got me thinking about next-gen VMs modularity and kind of
experimentation at the UVM level ultimately led me to build movement the first move
Lyra 2 in Ethereum bringing both Aptos and SUI to the broader Ethereum consensus I'm super excited
to be here I've always been a fan and say I've got a chance to meet Jay it's time for blockchain
week so I've been around in the system for a while
okay awesome great introduction your turn David hey how's everybody doing my name is David
Myhall and I work for Fuel Labs we're building a kind of new operating system a new new VM for
layer 2 roll-up blockchains and yeah a little background myself my background is a bit more in
you know kind of did a web 2 development stuff for a while worked at Google way back in the day and
I've been kind of in the Ethereum space building in the Ethereum space for a number of years
and yeah I mean I co-host the VMware's pod with Rushi and with our other co-host Dino and
I think one cool thing about the host we have on pod is we all kind of come from different
perspectives with Rushi kind of having a bit more of like a systems background Dino a little bit more
of a research background and myself a little bit more of a like Aptos background so I think it
brings some interesting perspectives and excited to chat about all things VMs today
brilliant thanks for that introduction David another thing I'm going to be saying throughout
the episode as well is you should go and follow VMware's pod we'll drop the link in a tweet after
the show and also maybe in this chat thing as well but oh it's already come off my screen here we go
so everyone follow VMware's some very interesting discussions on there so I suppose I was going to
get started off with you you guys I mean it's a good segue isn't it you guys are running this
podcast right you started off called VMware's it's about different VMs execution environments
for blockchains now we've heard a bit in your introductions things about like Aptos, SUI these
blockchains use move which is a different smart contract programming language and you're building
movement labs sorry I may have got that wrong but you're building the move VM
L2 for Ethereum so I guess as podcasters and you do a lot of discussion what kind of trends
are you seeing kind of emerge right now in smart contract development yeah I think coming into
2024 I think 2023 time what do you say year with the DA race where it's last year again it
avail these few different groups to come up to solve Ethereum's DA bottleneck and this year's
kind of experimentation level at the VM level so you're seeing move which is obviously coming
from the Facebook DM project you have salon VM which has been pretty popular recently with
salonless crazy pull um you have fluent which is like zk wadsam you have fuel which is the sway
language we're so we're seeing a lot of different programming languages come up mostly around the
parallelization concept so it's clear that single threat VMs and noisy fee markets can't always
scale so these next generation VMs are designed for speed while move is also focused on security
David if you want to touch on the parallelization aspect and then you can tie that in to say
uh yeah sure I mean um just to kind of uh back what Rishi was saying at the beginning in terms of
like trends for the year I yeah I definitely agree that I think this is shaping up to be a kind of
a year of of alternative VMs even if you just look at like sentiment on Twitter there's a lot of more
people talking about kind of the merits of different VMs uh and talking about kind of what
these new VMs open up and I kind of look at that as like even more than like kind of just last
year being like the year of like DAs stuff like that that um so much of like the history of
blockchains has been focused on the uh the consensus layer kind of figuring out you know
how do we build like these secure blockchains whether that was the transition from proof of
work to proof of stake uh you know the different variations of proof of stake kind of going
from like kind of more tenderment style proof of stake to a theorems proof of stake um you
know I would call roll ups like kind of a form of consensus as well you know figuring out how do we
share consensus to these kind of other like chains that inherit security and we're kind
of reaching the maturity of that um you know again we've we've got proof of stake's been
live for a bit roll up uh kind of proving technology is becoming mature like zk proving
technology is you know getting close you know it's not uh 100 there yeah but like I think
the end is in sight and now everyone's kind of turning their focus to um to the application
layer not not say I'm sorry not the application layer the VM layer the platform layer um so I think
we're seeing a lot of discussion around yeah like what what VMs are the most performant what VMs
enable good user experience and applications and things like that um I think the other kind
of trend that I see a separate trend but a tightly connected trend as everybody's kind
of looking at the platform layer is talk about things like account abstraction you know that that
ties into how do we improve the user experience how do we make it easier for users to interact
with our applications and of course the VMs that we have you know have very different um
account abstraction looks very different on different chains you know aetherium the
EVM has one certain kind of direction for account abstraction we we have a very different
direction at fuel with like a form of native account abstraction and I know a lot of other VMs
you know have their own take on account abstraction as well so again I think that's uh there's a whole
new like interesting space opening up um Rushi mentioned um parallelization yeah that's I think
one of the the strongest narratives right now is like uh people are seeing the success of Solana
the power of the SVM and going like okay maybe this like single threaded thing that we have with
the EVM is is not going to get us to the future and so you know Solana clearly has a lot of
attention backing him right now uh and we're seeing like this is kind of becoming standard
so you know fuel we've built kind of a paralyzed VM that uses UTXOs uh move also you know the
various move uh virtual machines they all have some form of parallelization and I know you know
say has kind of been paralyzed from the beginning and is now um you know uh we see the the emergence
of paralyzed EVMs whether that's uh stuff like say and monad and there's a few other attempts at
it so you know parallelization is clearly like uh here to stay and everyone's trying to kind of
make sure that their their blockchain is gonna like have that parallelization so it doesn't get left
behind that's a very interesting comparison well point that you made I think um and I would I would
make a comparison between yeah the the kind of innovation going on over the last few years in
terms of of on the consensus layer I remember you know back a few years ago new you know L1
blockchains would have a new consensus mechanism and that would be the main thing that you would
try and get across to people is that there's this consensus mechanism and it makes things faster
or you can have higher throughput and you'd maybe have a chart that kind of does a comparison
between proof of work potentially proof of stake um or some other kind of consensus and then your
one and then your one would have all the ticks of all the good you know um aspects everything that
you would want from from a consensus mechanism and higher performance and so yeah it's it's
interesting that you mentioned 2024 could be the year of the kind of the VM or the execution
environment it's really interesting and exciting to see all the different approaches being taken by
by all these um projects that you've mentioned and I think it will be the best technology
doesn't necessarily win you the most developers I would say and it's something a kind of theme
that I wanted to to touch on and discuss with you both as well is is the idea of building technology
that's that's good performance um but I think trying to um attract developers to use your technology
and getting that kind of what we call it product developer fit rather than product market fit so
having a loaded developers and having them be happy using your technology for a bunch of different
use cases um that's also that's not pure technology development right there's a bit of
marketing it's a bit of culture it's a bit of sociology as well as you know trying to trying
to do technical communication to these developers so that's something that that I wanted to ask you
as well what do you see you know the future of of kind of how do you how do you get developers
to adopt a VM you've you've made a cool VM that does something different what what do you think
about yeah getting developers on board and trying to build stuff with it and I think Rushi just to
tell you we're getting you back as a speaker it looks like on my screen you've been removed but
we'll get you back on soon I guess I'll have to uh I'll have to take the take the lead until
we get to Rushi back out um but that's a I think a great question and it's something that you know
I feel we kind of uh had to go back and forth on in terms of like you know how much focus do you put on
improving the chain itself you know things like adding um adding improving performance adding
functionality and stuff like that and how much do you focus on developer experience like kind of
really making sure that that users can onboard and um you know my feeling is to attract developers
you do need to have uh something that stands out you need to offer them some value it's
developer experiences especially at this stage of blockchains it's probably not going to be
developer experience outright it's going to have to be something um especially something
like uh something that enables developers to build applications they can't build elsewhere
I think we see a lot of um the developers in the Solana ecosystem you know why would you build
on Solana instead of building on Ethereum? Ethereum has all the money it has all the users stuff
like that but some developers are saying like look I just can't uh I can't build the kind of
application I want to build on Ethereum on the EDM so you know Solana is the place where I've got
like the low the low latency I've got the low fees and I can build different kinds of applications
um now and you know Solana's famously kind of had like not the best developer experience I know
it's it's improved a lot but uh you know in the early days of Ethereum Ethereum also had a
terrible developer experience and it's like come an incredible long way so if you're offering like
values to developers and you're letting them build really cool stuff developers will kind of like
fight their way through to um to figure out how to build on you um but of course you know like as
as competition heats up like a good developer experience can be like a catalyst if I'm
if I'm checking out there's a lot of really cool VMs now a lot of them are offering similar
functionality so it might be the good developer experience that attracts uh users to one chain
versus another but you're ultimately going to have to like enable them to build something
something that they couldn't build otherwise yeah I think the way we approach it is having backward
compatibility because um like give it a strong like facility and EDM still is like where it
equities house um it's very difficult to onboard new developers unless you can make it as easy for
them as possible so that's why we have like a fully compatible full even compatible move rich
machine of the trans power that we built it's a lot of something similar with like soloing and neon
that um kind of bridges the gaps um and like you would say with the save v2 um previously it's
cause and loss and which is a less developed language um but save v2 is pretty groundbreaking
because it allows for full even compatibility um at the micro level um which enables developers
to complete port over existing solidic code and enjoy um next generation reverse machines
yeah it's it's interesting that you mentioned that so
on say uh currently we have cause and loss of execution environment um and with the
the advent of save v2 which is coming we're hoping to have public testnet live queue on this year
that will have the parallel or the parallelized EDM as well available for developers and there's
been some work going on to get those two VMs to basically be able to to run in you know
at the same time in parallel although not quite the same things the parallelized
EVM right so there's been and so ultimately as well it's still running on top of
cosmos SDK as well so there's there's been some interesting innovation going on to kind of
make that work and i suppose you know to to zoom out a bit in technology new cool stuff um
and more performant or you know new improved technology can come out quite quickly but i
would say getting people to change is the hard part and and convincing people to change from
something that they've they they already know and they're comfortable with is exceedingly
difficult and i just wonder you know is EVM here to stay basically because it kind of that is
synonymous like blockchain development right now i would say is synonymous with with EVM i think
that's where most people start their blockchain development journey and i think for a lot of
people choose the effects that we've mentioned the network effects of of like the ethereum
ecosystem i think you know it kind of remains an extremely useful language
or or you know uh VM to run your your code on so what do you think about the future of EVM do you
think it's going to get left behind by kind of newer fancier versions um near fancier blockchain
VMs or do you think it's going to just be there forever or or kind of something else
and either of you can pick that one up so if you don't i'll choose one it was a question like how
we see EVM do you want to repeat the last part sorry yeah yeah sorry so basically
the EVM is it here to stay or do you think at some point in the future you know
some new VM is going to take over and everyone will move to that yeah so i think there's a place
for both EVM and next generation VMs like PHP is still around like WordPress is still on PHP
even though there's a much better programming languages so the way i see is like EVM is kind
of like legacy um it'll always be legacy kind of how bitcoin script still is um and then like the
opposite which apps will still be like liquidity under EVM but there'll be new use cases and more
of the mind shows switch to next-generation VMs we've seen them slana as long as they've been
crushing on the payment side um movies position to be great with gaming side um so these main
use cases are where next generation VMs are really gonna pick up um while the EVM remains legacy so
i see a world where both um people exist and change market yeah i i pretty much agree with that
i was gonna i was gonna say javascript instead but i think PHP is a better metaphor um yeah it's
kind of you know legacy tech in some sense and you know lots of different technologies are
you know used for the the role that they're well suited for and we might find that in a lot of
cases like the EVM is well suited for um low low um low throughput like uh high value DeFi
which is what it's used for today right ethereum is the wall street of blockchains it's where all the
liquidity is it's where all the volume is and it's where kind of the trusted code is you know if you
want to do large on chain swaps you want to be doing that through uniswap you're probably not
doing it through some some kind of newer code on some other chain where you don't trust it as much same
same for most different DeFi primitives and so uh you know ruzhi was kind of mentioning like
we're seeing like new use cases uh you know merging like gaming and things like that um
if you're a like on-chain gaming startup you might not care that much that like
all the good DeFi infra is written for the EVM you're you're building something completely new and
you just mostly care more about latency and throughput so you're willing to use a new VM
whereas uh you know when kind of i don't know uh but JP Morgan or you know some as as larger
financial players enter the space they're they're probably just going to go with the EVM because
well that's where all the that's where all the resources are you know JP Morgan doesn't really
care if they have to pay a high transaction fee of like a couple dollars um so yeah i think well
we'll definitely see the i don't think the EVM is going anywhere but i don't think it's going to
have the same level of dominance as it is today i think um it has this level of dominance because
you know general purpose blockchains have really only been around and only been used widely for
a couple years so you know the attention's been focused there and we also haven't really had
the ability to experiment as much um we haven't had like the the kind of roll-up landscape which
has allowed teams to kind of spin up new chains with new execution environments while still tapping
into the same ecosystem so i think uh everything's primed for like explosion of like experimentation
on this right now i would also mention it's actually funny you know talking about EVM
and calling it legacy software when compared to anything else in in technology it's it's still
bleeding edge um technology it's you know they they the ethereum foundation
has the team of of of kind of these researchers who are just at the you know they're blazing
a new trail um figuring out new ways to do things i think we have to give credit right to
a lot of these concepts that we're talking about that has blockchain developers building
cool stuff and getting excited about is um you know thanks to the ethereum research and kind of
development process and they're you know the things i'm talking about is like tokens
fungible and non-fungible tokens things like um things that we've been talking about developers
getting really excited about like account abstraction they're still you know um pioneering
right in a lot of of these areas so it's strange to talk about it as as old technology um but it's
interesting i was thinking about account abstraction actually it's been mentioned a couple of times
and that was one of the things that when talking about kind of trends i think some of the things
that i've seen smart contract developers get really really excited about is one is account
abstraction because of the possibilities that it unlocks and how much easier you can make things
for your users if you're building applications i think another thing that i've really seen
developers get excited about is zk you know and slightly somewhat related um rollups as well
people are interested in in rollups and and zk as well i would meet a lot of developers and
they're kind of saying well i'm interested in zk they don't know exactly what they want to do with it
um there's kind of various bits and pieces and tools and software that they can they can use
but they just know zk is something that everyone's talking about right now it's really cool it
allows me to do these new things and i want to get stuck in with something so i was wondering
if you think there's going to be um other things like that that developers are that are kind of
coming up if we could drop some alpha um what do we think developers are going to be excited about next
um in that way i mean we've already mentioned the parallel vms um and i think it's going to be
interesting as well to see what that will mean for developers yeah so the next uh next cycle after
polarization in this world where you have four to five good paralyzed vms that can do ten thousand
plus tps the next question is okay is a differentiator ten thousand to twenty thousand probably not
because we're not going to be able to hit that remotely it's next cycle is going to focus on
security um the vms and networks that can house the user funds on chain in a secure manner are
the ones going to win um in this world we have ETFs institutions um and more bigger players coming
on chain um they want to be able to house their funds in a secure fashion that's not being
hacked for a billion dollars every year um so i think parallelization is great um next generation
speed is great um but at a certain point it doesn't really matter after like five thousand tps um and
the main focus after that is securitizing the bm making asset funds as secure as possible
um which is exactly what the movie thesis was designed for
and i think i just kind of want to like add some clarity to what she was saying
that's like application security because that would even add to the the trend you were saying was
probably even before tps we talked about like consensus security that like you know which
chains have kind of the most economic security behind them that was like a big narrative for
a long time and then in these days i think people don't care stopped kind of caring about that
because large blockchains all kind of have enough uh economic security it's been a long time since
the days when we saw like double spend attacks on like ethereum classic and bitcoin cash so
that was kind of one thing that became was a trend and then kind of became uh like people stopped
caring about right now as you said it's tps you know everyone's trying to have the most performance
but i think we're going to reach the same point we're going to reach a point where we have good
enough tps for for most of the use cases that we need and then yeah so i think your question is
like what's the next thing you know ritchie seems to be hitting out like application security
making sure that you're uh you can easily build secure applications is and i think that's a that's
nothing a good a good answer in a good direction um mine's maybe a little more my thoughts are
a little more like broad but um you know we and when it comes to kind of building applications on
blockchains a lot of the applications we build and a lot of the frameworks we use to build
applications they still look pretty similar to the way we build computer applications um you know
especially like if you're building in in rust or if you're building um it's been a little bit since
i've read cosmwasm but cosmwasm is written in rust right um yes that's correct yeah yeah yeah um
yeah so saying like a lot of these a lot of these vms like you you write in rust compile to
wasm and things like that um and as kind of the blockchain space matures and we see more
experimentation i think we're going to see more um more platforms and frameworks for building
blockchain applications that look that are a little bit further from the way that we build
kind of like computer applications and like web applications and things like that um you know
the example that comes to mind is you know for me like working with fuel we we're a utxo based
blockchain and a lot of what we explore is like kind of how do how can you explore and build
interesting things with utxos and what are other kind of interesting patterns you can do that
are not uh patterns that don't exist in traditional computing where you have very
different constraints so that's just kind of one uh example from uh you know our project but
i think in general people will kind of come up with new ideas and i'll come up with new types of
building applications and programming applications that just don't make sense at all for like
traditional applications um and i think that'll unlock a lot of use cases but it'll also just
kind of like get a lot of nerds like myself excited i think that's a very good point that
you make we're not really building computer applications here we're using computers to
build financial applications and there's there's a different set of of restraints i suppose obviously
when we're talking about money or value it's very important what it's what makes the
everything in the world work right so we want to make sure we do it right i think
yeah it's interesting to hear that your kind of view or idea that security is the next theme
that's both um security from a kind of uh yeah hacking like cyber security perspective
but also um this is something as well that i'm not too qualified to speak on but i think
uh move and rust allows you to do things in a kind of formally verifiable way i think
is that correct and so in that way some people have tried to explain to me before as well that
programming and rust can be safer than other programming languages because of the kind of
features of the language that are baked in right and the way that you do things yeah so rust itself
is a much more secure language than um so i think the only i think move is the only formally
verified language because the formal verification works in at the bm level because of the provers
the interpreters that can check for resource type of memory safety not sure if fuel has
formal verification at the bm level probably something similar right david no we don't have
any formal verification we have a lot of good security tooling and checks but uh no that's
not something yeah you can do compiler checks usually within the other rust language level
um but the vm the move vm really focuses on having um compilers and interpreters that focus on
security which is a formal verification concept yes so these are these for my
a trend for me in 2024 is to learn more um about the things that that we've just spoken about now
i think it's very interesting and i think it's probably going to be more to be able to explain to
developers who maybe don't have like myself who don't have a formal computer science background
and might not know what what some of these words um phrases mean in too much depth i think as well
to bring it back so we kind of had this idea that security is going to be one of the next
you know trends and things that the kind of industry cares about
i think before that we're talking about parallel or parallelized vms and i was hoping to ask your
opinion on what that will look like so we mentioned some tps numbers there and so yes
if you execute transactions in a parallel fashion then you can have higher throughput
the approach that we've taken um in say v2 is different to the approach that has been taken
for cosm wasm parallelization so at present if you want to um parallelize your your cosm wasm
transactions you as a developer have to kind of give some context about which um transactions
are reliant on the outputs um which transactions basically could be contentious um for state access
yes the parallelization in say v2 will be optimistic so it will try to run
transactions in parallel and then if there are um contentious transactions that that um
same state then they're basically rerun and so you still end up saving quite a bit of time over
executing them all sequentially but there still are um conflicts so i was wondering what your opinion
was do you think smart contract developers need that level of that granularity of control to be
able to define their own parallelism because it's one of the the most difficult things to do
in application development to parallelize code right because there's so many different
things that could happen um to make things go wrong we talked before in the security aspect
about how important it is to make things make sure things don't go wrong in blockchain development
so so what do you think there do you think we should be giving developers um fine grain control
of parallelism or do you think we should kind of abstract it away from them in smart contract
development i'd say all of the above um we should be we should be you know trying to give um
give as much out of the box as we can but you also want to give like developers the tool
we're always going to want to squeeze every little bit of performance out of out of these
systems so yeah i think uh you know some form of like optimistic parallelism is really nice to
give you parallelism batteries included and uh but you also want to let developers like kind of
you know squeeze the the parallelism out of their own applications in the same way that like EVM
developers will really gas golf they'll do like really confusing stuff to get their gas costs down
that's a good phrase gas golfing that's a good point as well right yeah basically there's always
going to be some developers who want to get right down to kind of almost assembler level
optimization isn't there yeah for sure gas golfing is like i think people do gas
golfing almost more because it's fun than because they really need to like cut those pennies off
i used to say um if you ever needed a hard problem solved and you don't have enough time
to do it yourself you just post it on the yeah the code golf stack exchange and someone'll do
it for you in about an hour and it'll be really optimized so i've never seen that i have to check
i have to check that stack exchange out it's it's a fun one i think um the people so
the the idea is to solve that basically someone specifies what your program should do and you
have to write the program in the smallest amount of bytes and people have invented whole languages
just to do code golfing so it's it's it's also extremely esoteric right so a lot of people even
in software development don't even know that it's a thing i think what we should do is
we should maybe start a website for people to do do gas golfing i think people already do it but
they kind of do it in group chats and on twitter so um it's going to be interesting as well to see
i suppose gas golfing well gas optimization to start with is necessary because gas costs
are are so high on ethereum um i think it'll be interesting to see a lot of these
techniques can be applied right to other evm blockchains but i don't know if people will
actually bother with them because if the fees aren't as as high i think ethereum's the only
blockchain with with fees high enough to to justify that kind of optimization
sorry i didn't mean to interrupt you there i also didn't see who which one of you that was
uh that was me i mean i didn't have too much that i think um
it definitely yeah if you're building on ethereum and it makes a lot more sense to gas golf it's
where we see things like the open sea seaport contract which is like mostly written in assembly
to get the gas cost down um you know on there's definitely less incentive on the lower cost chains
to need to do that but i think we're still going to see people you know people want to
make efficient code efficient software they might not be willing to trade off readability but
um you know when it's money and when you have lots of people doing transactions i think people
want to like they want to get those costs down and they know that like their users want low cost too
yeah maybe when you get to salon levels of like fractions of a penny
matters a little bit less but you know i think there's still going to be you know need for
optimizations people optimizers are always going to be optimizing aren't they
so i think i've not actually looked at the chat but it's probably a good time to see if we've got
any good questions and answers i've also got a little chic here where we should have recorded
some good ones do you do um question and answers on your podcast by the way do you kind of get
people to submit questions haven't done that yet um it could be a fun thing to do the going forward
but we try to keep it just recorded for now that makes it i guess it depends sorry you go
i say yeah they've all been pre-recorded so far so it doesn't quite work out but it would be
fun to do some live ones or uh maybe even seven person ones i think i think most of us are going
to be in denberth's maybe we'll do in there oh um just jumping in angus here in the comments
wow somebody's asked why has no one picked up on this one simple d-fight trick
that sounds really interesting i wonder if you should delve deeper into that
yes m-e-v-bots or something yeah for the record do not click that anybody who's uh
scrolling through the comments that's uh that's a joke for clarification
yes don't yeah i would say basically don't trust anyone on twitter about anything
i think that's a good policy to start with also i've just kind of gone i've been transported on
some sort of uh recommendations feed so i'm now totally not looking at things that people are
saying in this space at all i think um
what i was saying earlier yeah if you pre-record podcast you can still say to people oh send your
questions in and put them on a list or something somewhere um but i guess it depends on what kind
of podcast it is and what your audience is and i was also going to mention i will hopefully be
coming to denver as well so if you want to do a live version of vm wars i'll be happy to represent
evm or cosmoism and we can do like uh maybe a gladiator style thing where people have to
stand on platforms on a swimming pool and we have to hit each other with those kind of batons i'll
i'll fight for evm or cosmoism i think that sounds like the best way to determine the best
virtual machine that i've heard so far um but yeah curious on the on the panel's takes on that one
no i think that that seems like a really fair way to i think whoever wins we all have to
we all have to like build an application for their for their vm
we'll have to agree that that is the best it's it's maybe the best route is a walk
walk a mile in my shoes approach like come and come and build an app see how you like it i'm
sure everybody's had a go at solidity but maybe cosmoism is the is the sneaky one at the underdog
or perhaps perhaps move is going to come around with the with all these objects what is it the
the object oriented piece which i think is super interesting i've not delved too deep myself
but it sounds it sounds pretty awesome to be honest i think it's a good point that you
mentioned there we've talked a little bit about developers and trying to get them to use
one you know tech stack over another i think something that i when i was i used to work in
in the kind of zk space something that i noticed was because we're dealing with stuff here that's
so complicated and so uh broad in scope there's there's actually very few people who
use more than one of these bits of tech so when i met someone who had kind of used some zk
stuff but also a lot of other zk stuff i was kind of trying to sit down and get as much out of it as i
could because i was like i think you're the only guy i've ever met who's actually used all three
of these different pieces of technology it's i think it's it's quite rare to find developers who
do that kind of straddle across have experience in one or more than one or or even more
um vms as well i think yeah that's something that i'm really excited about um this this new VM wars
podcast as well is to to have uh discussion and kind of comparison um because i've certainly
i've certainly heard a lot about move um from devs people saying it's cool and they've kind of
been trying to explain features to me but i've not when you work for you know when you work in
in a space and you have to know one vm for work you kind of don't really have
much time to to go deep um on other ones so yeah i think that would be really cool maybe we can
do some sort of i mean i'm sure there's there's probably something happening at denver right
where where people can get together and discuss different different vms
i will i think there's going to be a few different events um
um is um i know we're a few labs we're doing a day called execution day i think rushi i think
you guys are also doing yeah we're doing a modular day yeah we're doing a modular day
cool yeah so we'll definitely be there i guess you should definitely go to both of those events
um and i'm sure there's gonna be some other good vm related events as well
no did anyone give you any kind of funny looks or ask any questions when you told them you're
running an event called execution day i know we're we're we're leaning into it i think
we're going to have the the grim reaper as our mascot
because you know it's going to be a fight it's going to be a fight to the death for the for
the best yeah yeah that's that's it that's good very thematic and uh the grim reaper i think
is is is good obviously you i think there's a line that could be crossed um but but yeah
hopefully oh sounds like you're staying on the right side of it so far um it's interesting
as well rushi you mentioned modular day so we've kind of um hear it say we've just that's something
that we discuss a fair bit is the kind of modular versus monolithic or or integrated approach um
and that's that's been something as well that i think uh i've heard a lot of developers getting
excited about is this the kind of the modular thesis that we're going to have lots of different
bits um that do different things and you can just plug into them whenever you need so
our kind of thesis is that perform i mean our blockchain is a high performance blockchain so
we want high performance we think that the the way to get the best performance is
to put everything into a you know a monolith right this is to kind of have have the monolithic
stack we think that modularity gives you convenience and maybe some other benefits but
at the the cost of performance which is not something that we want to sacrifice so i was
wondering what your thoughts are on on the kind of the modularity versus monolithic or or integrated
kind of approach yes so i think it's a world where both can coexist monolithic chains are definitely
excellent i'll say better for the payments um designed for just quick user experience modularity
is more design for personalizations bringing it together different networks and kind of customizing
the best tech stack makes the most sense um you get to give it like you can customize your pc
or you can get a brand new pc um that's fully built right um some people prefer just to have
it out of the box some people prefer to pick mix match the pieces to get the most performance and
um the ideal use cases for us we couldn't we didn't really like division with the monolithic
book chains i wanted to bring the movie out to ethereum where there'd be liquidity and user
adoption um as well as having permissionless interoperability um so that's kind of where
we saw the need for modular chain um totally understand the need and have counter argument
that monolithic chains are more convenient i just think there's a world where both can coexist
yeah i agreed as well and i think um you know i think it's easier right now in that kind of
the early days of modularity to kind of like look at something like salona and say like okay you
know like maybe people just want like a really fast chain uh we haven't really seen much
i don't even we haven't seen much to like really um like the many wins from like kind of the modular
side you know there are like arbors from an optimism which are you know our modular chains
on ethereum but i think they don't really show off the really special parts about modularity but
you know again i'll say i guess that part of my job i talk to a lot of teams like a lot of
applications who are looking to build you know roll apps or app type chains um and there's a lot
of really cool stuff being built and it's stuff that generally can't be built on general purpose
chains you know it's people have ideas that they kind of need to control the full stack
so i think as we see more and more of those projects roll out that's going to kind of prove
that's going to kind of prove the modular thesis in the same way that like
projects like uh like dydx or even say itself have kind of proved the uh well i guess say it's
not an app chain but like dydx definitely lends credence to the app chain like this along the
cosmos app chain thesis and i think there's going to be some cool projects in the pipeline that'll
prove out the monolithic sorry modular thesis sorry i'm slipping up my words uh you made a mistake
there yeah i made a few look at how i proved the monolithic thesis yeah you got me um yeah i think
it's interesting you mentioned the roll apps and app chains thing i would love to discuss you know
i have another hour of discussion on app chains um i think it's really interesting area we'll just
need to get into that when we have you or back on with with dino or dino um or on an episode
of vm or sometime um when we were putting together the promo image um david i actually said
there's no way you know we don't have dino um coming on today and then then i realized oh
it was you in the dinosaur suit so that was quite confusing i was like surely the guy called dino
is going to be the guy in the dinosaur suit but it was actually you um i think i think it's
a lizard but yeah it's pretty close oh so it's a lizard right okay it's a it's a lizard the
bad joke is i was an organizer for liz con which is a big conference that we did in lisbon um
and so since it was called liz con i just decided to wear a lizard hat but
pretty pretty bad joke but i ran with it i'll come next year and i'll wear a lizard hat as well
and then you won't be awesome i really need that okay so we're kind of um getting towards time
now i think it's time to to wrap up i would like to say thank you so much rishi and thank you so much
david for being such brilliant guests it's been really really interesting hearing what you have
to say um and i'm looking forward to tuning into to vm wars in the future on the regs i think um
thank you everyone for listening as well it's been great tune in next week for the lookout we're
going to have someone really interesting to talk um about more technical um uh and blockchain things
also if you're a developer and you want to learn more about say you should come to our office hours
which is on weddings day and i'll drop the link for that in the kind of tweet thread summarizing
this episode it's on our discord server we'd love to see you there if you have questions or just to
say hello and yes rishi david do you have anything that you want to say before we leave thanks for
having me appreciate that and looking forward to working together okay awesome yeah thanks so much
wait just thanks so much for having us on and uh yeah follow vm wars uh on twitter and our
first episode should be dropping soon that i can't wait oh also follow rishi and david on twitter
follow me on twitter follow terry on twitter we're all going to tweet lots of exciting things that
you won't want to miss thank you so much everyone and see you next week goodbye goodbye