absolutely, thanks for coming today
so I think we'll give it a few minutes before we kick things off here
it took me a while to drop out
the little microphone button
was stuck with a tech on it
that's saying like oh you've joined
or you've applied to speak
and then it wouldn't let me
unmute my microphone or something
so you know every week though
this happens right there's a new kind of issue
and also you need to tell me as well
in the chat if my connection
drops out and you can't hear me anymore
it was a bit of an interruption
fortunately we had two guests
on who managed to kind of
keep the back and forth going until I managed to
welcome this is the lookout
we'll get started in a minute or two
usually we wait a couple of minutes
because people always come in late for these sorts of things
but it's good that everyone can hear me
today we've got a really good guest
guest speaker and kind of goes
alongside an announcement
as well that was made recently about
and of particular interest to developers
as well who want to build stuff
on say so it's going to be really good
I suppose we should probably just
get started now because by the time I've gone through
the regular role of trying to actually
as a speaker it's pretty much time to start anyway
so yes hello everyone this is the
the lookout in the Dragon Ball Z
universe is a giant kind of
orbit above the planet where the action
takes place and sometimes the characters
on the planet I think that's how it works
of Dragon Ball Z but they kind of sit on it
and look down so that's what we're doing we sit up there
the blockchain industry from
you know a high level view
have technical insights, leaders
and builders and people like that who
have got something to say about the blockchain space
which he's going to tell me if I've
pronounced it correctly or not when he introduced himself
so there was an announcement recently
Tenderly would support Say so
Tenderly is a brilliant platform for developers
to use to build all sorts of applications
it's got loads of great features we're going to be
the greatest hits, the best bits
of Tenderly and how it makes
life easier for developers
gas golfer kind of optimizer
last week and he was shouting at Tenderly saying they've got
a really good feature that
code that you write for smart contracts
dive into that and get lots more detail
got Terry here as well our co-host
why don't you say hi Terry
evening, good afternoon everyone
nice to meet everyone and
really happy to have Bogdan here first
we all believe it's going to be
coming in clutch for a lot of development
recent release of DevNet for
focusing on EVM compatibility
Tenderly is going to come in as a
all the developers on Say
so really excited to see how it's going to
I work on developer relations with Angus here
you can find me in developer chats
yeah, happy to get this started
okay, so that's the introductions
so now it's time to say hello to our guest
Bogdan, did I pronounce your name correctly
the first time? Yes, you actually
also did the last name as well even though
the last character is an accent that
actually does read Bogdan Khabib
okay, well welcome to the lookout, we're happy to have
you here, we're looking forward to hearing all
why don't you give a quick introduction to
yourself, like have you ended up
what do you do at Tenderly
how have you ended up there
and then we'll get into talking more about the platform
I usually start the intro
with how Tenderly started and maybe
how I became an engineer but for
this particular space I also
really feel an urge to say that my favorite
Dragon Ball movie is the one
with Brawley, I cannot remember correctly
what the name of that particular
one is, it's not the one from 2018
I watched that one as well but
the original one in the 2010s, something
like that, I think maybe even before
I can remember, so that might be
the most important thing I say during this whole space
I'm ready to die on the hill, that was at least the best
one until I was following closely
cough at certain points, you're going to see
I mute and unmute myself, allergies
are killing me right now, so
at certain points I'm going to act weird with my mic
so sorry for that in advance
Hi everyone, as my name was
actually very correctly pronounced, my name is Bogna
Khabic, one of the co-founders in CTO
at Tenderly, my experience
actually is something called distributed
the part of the centralization
without the cryptographic stuff
that's kind of what I've been
trained in and what I've been doing for the past
almost a decade now, maybe even a decade
engineering because I really like
to know how things work and I guess at the
age when I needed to pick a career
or what I wanted to be, astronauts
weren't cool but programmers were, so that's
and then how Tenderly started, we really
other than the fact that it's
our story but because it started
as part of a hackathon, so it has been
started by four co-founders
and we were going to hackathons
new tech, so that was like a thing
how we would discover new tech
of us, he was actually earning
money on the side while we were
by giving birth to crypto cats
so crypto kitties were all their age
thought blockchain was stupid and then it's going to
die off and it's a fad and it makes no sense
so there was actually a blockchain
hackathon happening in our country
new piece of tech, we said okay let's go there
and the thing that we said is if we win
this particular hackathon it's like going to
a church choir competition where you
don't know how to sing and you're not religious
that was kind of the joke that we made
but during that particular
I guess when I saw incentives
for the first time because I paid
thousands and thousands of computers did
the thing that they asked them to because
interesting trivia where the name came
from, at that hackathon we did a
public procurement project which is also
called Tenders in Serbian
and that's where the name Tenderly comes
from and then while working on that because
in our previous jobs we were also working on developer
infrastructure, we discovered
we don't care particularly much about
public procurement but we
were enjoying the internal tooling that we were building
five and a half years ago right now
something like that and started developing
Tenderly on hackathons so we were going
to Web3 hackathons and then if
then either VCs approach or other
developers tell you, you build something cool
we knew that things should end
in the product that we're building
basically from day zero because
we were making something for engineers
and engineers are on hackathons
all of those things there and we're
actually very proud, we won
different hackathons, had a placement on them
we're on one each CC, actually won
both first and second place, that was
I guess the highlight of that
point we started charging for Tenderly because
it needs to be a business
and you cannot really earn salaries
by just going to hackathons around the world
it's very stressful and very inefficient
to make a business that way
what is Tenderly, I mentioned Tenderly
as a name multiple times here
it started as a developer tool but
what it is now is something that we call a full-stack
what does that mean is that
no matter what you're doing
with your project is, are you developing
locally or are you deployed to say or
are you in a testing phase or whatever
we want to help you along
the way with some infrastructure, what does that mean?
when you're catering to developer, this is why
it's the developer infrastructure, we have a debugger
gas profiler that you mentioned, was mentioned
on the previous Twitter space
we have tools that help you
transaction will do if you send it on
chain or what the transaction did
on chain or while you're testing stuff
the next thing that we have is like
observability, so we're one of those companies
that unfortunately wakes you up in the middle of the night
although an automated one because something
so that's like the observability alerting
notifying you when things happen on chain
and then the third one is the
where we have a node as a service product
where we give you, if not
the fastest probably, one of the
to the blockchains that we support
we have a simulation platform
where you can actually see what
will happen to a transaction
before sending it on chain
a good example is if anybody
is using Xerion for example
need to sign a transaction you will
see a preview of the asset changes that will happen
that's actually tenderly in the background
simulating what will happen once the transaction
is sent and then we have a serverless platform
lot of things there, I hope
that's good for the intro
That's a very comprehensive intro
very interesting to hear the origin
story, kind of a bit of your background
story of tenderly rolled up into one
you said you had to turn it into
live on hackathon bounties forever
I think some people would argue that
bounties you don't need money
to live on because you can just stay in
hacker houses and you get free food
you can stay there all night so
you can kind of wash yourself
would say that you can live the
monetary income I suppose
but it's not really a sustainable
lifestyle I have observed
but it does look like a lot of fun and some
people obviously love it, you guys are obviously
I think that just speaks to the
the product market fit almost
the necessity for a product
like tenderly, one of the things
that I do developer relations and one
of the things that we're always talking about is developer
like this can really help, blockchain
kind of started out, it was a bunch
of crazy ideas, you said at
the time you thought when you discovered
about it, you said you thought
it was going to fad and it was going to die
out, so it wasn't really taking
that seriously and a lot of it was open
source so building tooling
for open source projects is something that
blockchains have really brought it to the forefront
because there's so many projects trying to
do it and figure out how to do it
to hear about some of the different features
I also wanted to mention as well, so you
said you were doing distributed systems
an interesting angle to come into
blockchain from, there's a lot of people
who mention the phrase distributed
industry, I've done a bit of
work with distributed systems
but I'm by no means like an expert
that was kind of based on this Greek
island, so it's an academic
paper but the whole thing it's kind of like a
story set on this kind of fictional island
in Greece where they were trying to figure out how
to make decisions on collective
and it was really really difficult to get my head
around and I think what I
studying distributed systems was how difficult
distributed systems are to get right
there's nothing that you can do without
having a bunch of different tradeoffs, so I think that's
yeah, distributed systems
I think you've mentioned basically
Tenderly offers, we're really
excited to be able to offer these features to our
there's one thing that I would say though is
Tenderly has a feature called DevNet
and so that is distinct from
that we have live at the moment
the public DevNet which has
software that has the EVM functionality
have heard about Say that it's the first
so the parallelised EVM is
deploy applications on on this
DevNet, so it's kind of a
deployment of the software to get
builders getting used to it and also to
issues that might present themselves before
so DevNet's though on Tenderly
something else completely on DevNet
so we're very bad at naming
stuff in Tenderly, I guess that's
I thought the origin story of the
Tenderly name was cool, but if you say
you can say whatever you like about your own naming
As you can see we also misnamed the company now
when you think about it, although it's
stuck with our hearts and I think it's obscure
that people remember it, but yes you're correct
we have something called DevNet
that we're actually, we teased
something in its early access right now
which will be a superset of
DevNet something called virtual networks
but I can explain what DevNet's are and
other stuff, so if you remember
I said that in Tenderly you can
simulate what the transaction would do
before sending it on chain
For the engineers in the crowd, I think
it can be interesting also how this actually
works is, just like say we made a
parallelized EVM that can do
one of the hackathon projects that we thought
was going to last a week but ended
up lasting six months and it's not really
we wanted to create our own EVM
that we can instrument, so while the
it can tell us stuff about
memory, stuff about storage and a bunch of
do simulations, we're basically lying to the
virtual machine that something's happening on chain
even if it's not, and this is why it's called simulations
users, one of the teams using
us, shout out to Instadap here
came up with the idea is, they said
what if we can chain multiple
simulations together, so instead
of just doing a one-off simulation of what will happen
chained together, aware of all of the previous ones
in the chain, and that's how we came
up with our forking technology here
now, you did mention DevNet
and I'm going to talk about virtual networks which
are a strict superset and I do urge everyone
who's on this space and who listens to the
ping us to add them to the early access
but this basically gives you a way
once we rolled out and say, I'm going to use say as an
you want to deploy something to
say mainnet, or even better you
you're building a DEX for example on say
and you have a V1 and you want to test
out V2, what you can do is
you can fork the say network
in using the virtualization or forking technology
full upgrade process without sending
now, I guess people in the crowd would think
why wouldn't they use the say testnet
for example for this, the thing
there is that all of the production values
aren't there, so let's say for example you're
leaning on some other DeFi projects
incorrect, the LP positions are incorrect
they're probably not updated, especially if you're
integrating with multiple DeFi projects
there's a chance that one
of them isn't deployed to a testnet, so
the thing that you can do here is you can fork
and have your own little fork on the
side that's actually updating
with say itself, so let's say
Chainlink updates the price feed, it gets
updated on your virtual network as well
is deployed, the LP positions
so the deadnets that you mentioned but also
the new thing that we're rolling out
for their QA engineers etc
to have a fully malleable virtualized
environment of the production chain
where they can faucet funds, where they
where they can change the code of the smart
contracts etc, so this is a
very powerful new feature that
we're shipping which will let teams
not need to deploy to production
to see if something will work but
actually test it in isolation
the whole blockchain, it makes it a lot easier
to do things, that's kind
of the whole point of blockchains
but if you're a developer
and you want to try something crazy
having complete control means that you
can test things out quicker
developers can faucet their own funds
tokens you give out of a faucet
there will always be people coming
up to you saying I need more tokens
I need this or that, give me some more
people will always complain no matter how
many tokens you give them through the faucet
so that's a really useful feature for people
as well, right? Plus it has
blockchain ecosystem there's people who build
applications but there's also people who
and the chain level stuff
so there's innovation to be done on those
parts that isn't kind of the application layer
self-hosted private simulation of those things
can really speed up their work flow as well
as well, I know I'm saying that a lot of things
are interesting but I genuinely find it very
if anyone goes to your website
they'll see that you're integrated with a lot
of different blockchains and obviously each of those
blockchains have their own reasons
we're going to talk about the reasons that
developers choose say today
one is that say is very fast
it's very fast time to finality, it's very fast to
you don't need to make your users wait
minutes before they know their transaction
is final in a block, it happens
each block, so you can get very very fast
the second reason is that there's very high
throughput, so you can do
of these kind of top three is that
the transactions are much cheaper
than other blockchain networks because
there's so much capacity it means that
there's less gas fees to pay
for transactions and operations
for developers to come and look at
that Tenderly have started supporting say
I've always said, say is the fastest
blockchain and I would really love for
it to be the case that it's also the
fastest blockchain to build on
and now I think that we've got Tenderly
it's going to really improve
for developers to be able to build and deploy
tests, do their workflows
with Tenderly, so I was wanting to ask
you Bogdan, what do you think
are some interesting trends that
we're seeing in people building stuff like
running a platform like this, you must talk to a lot
of builders, is there anything that you are particularly
people are building, use cases or
sectors that you see people trying to do stuff in
with blockchain and Tenderly
Yeah, so I would actually first of all lean
forward to, I have no idea how
it's actually going to look, so
the cool thing that I find about say and what
the parallelized EVM actually brings
with the speed and the throughput and everything
else is that we could probably
see use cases that weren't
to wrap everything into one huge transaction
or whatever, or you don't need to wait on the
confirmation times, finality, etc.
So you can suddenly have these
experiences that couldn't be done before
and what we have learned with Tenderly
is when you give people a powerful piece
of technology, they will probably
and I mean this is the biggest compliment
possible, misuse it in the
best possible way, because
of even people in the same foundation
cannot comprehend the amount of
value and the amount of cool things
that they're unlocking with the speed
so that's something that I'm really looking
forward to when it comes to
say specifically and I think
the approach to the parallelizing EVM
a lot of work with a lot of teams
both big and small, we're actually extremely
proud that we work so closely
not only the in-app support chat
but over 200 direct chats
on Slack, Telegram and Discord
with specific teams talking about
stuff where we even talk about
just tech so it doesn't have to be Tenderly
So sometimes we do get some alpha
leaked in the sense of hey look at this
cool thing that we're building
it wasn't possible before etc.
that they find interesting are
I think we're becoming more and more
multi-chain, I know this has been a fact
for the past two years but now I think
for the first time we came
to a point where it's kind
of a given that most things
will be multi-chain and now that the
second order effects of that is
account extraction needing to exist
multiple networks, how do I manage these things
so some of the cool stuff and work that teams
are doing is abstracting away the
It's definitely important if we're talking about
I don't know a chat app and you need to know
and I think again if you think about
what C is doing let's compare chat apps
I don't know WhatsApp and then
I know Facebook Messenger now isn't
end-to-end encrypted but the difference
there is like it's a chat
but WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted that was
something that brought it to the forefront
and I think the similar thing will happen
would say with all of the throughput stuff
especially the finality stuff maybe
even more than the throughput stuff that you mentioned there
I have to mute myself for two seconds
I think I speak forever when I say
It's not up to me, it's up to the pollen
and also this idea of gas
a developer on last week called Harrison
tenderly is great for profiling
writes so he's a kind of gas optimizer
gas efficient code for EVM
and they've started a business called Gaslight
to do that they've done a bunch of cool
open source contracts that people can
use as a kind of template to start their application
on which I think is really cool
we were kind of discussing
what's the future going to look like
are we going to be able to just
create an optimal version of everything and there's
more optimization to be done
I've seen some very interesting ideas about
changing the treatment of gas as well
so maybe you can pay in a non-native
token or you can pay in some
token that everyone kind of
assemble a standard around like USDC
so some quite interesting
potential developments there is how
I've described them because I'm not entirely
sure what the exact stage of a
lot of these things are but that kind of idea
of maybe we change up gas in the
future because it seems to be the number one
complaint that people have
right, blockchains in general
and it is annoying because as soon as
obviously when blockchains
when there's a lot of hype
wants to use the blockchain and then it becomes
really expensive to do stuff right
or more expensive than you're used to
when it wasn't so busy so
developments there I would say
and so you mentioned as well
gas developments is one thing
this was something that was quite a big narrative
everyone's going to need to be interoperable
there's going to be lots of different blockchains
they're all going to talk to each other
blockchains in the middle that are going to connect
everything and now we've got modular chains
and everything's going to be connected
product development for tenderly
multi-chain which is really really
complicated into what is already quite a complicated
product which is kind of your
I will answer your question but also to add
my thoughts about something that you said as well
with gas I think there's actually two different
problems one is access to the
ease of getting to the currency
to a chain so you can use it to pay for
gas and then the second one is the
price so for the first one this is
where the abstraction comes from for example
the thing that you mentioned do we want to standardize
around USDC or something more
decentralized like die or whatever and then
the second one is for the developer that you
mentioned from the developer that you mentioned
where definitely is the optimization part
where again tenderly has the profiler which
places where you can optimize
gas it's very human driven
the tooling needed to reason about where
the gas is actually being spent
but coming back to the thing that you asked about
yeah it's definitely the narrative
that kind of changed and I'm going to come to
it kind of changed from okay we have
L1s and L2s now and now we have
the app chains, L3s, sovereign chains
edges, supernets, superchains
basically picked your favorite name
about this certain assumption
that we made when we started tenderly
which helped us be right now
so what does this actually mean?
when we started tenderly out hyperledger
was all the rage and then
the assumption was that banks and
retail and all of these large
fortune 500 companies etc
will deploy private chains
where the idea is these companies
if they're doing I don't know supply chain
was I think one of the main use cases that was
when they're working on certain
stuff they have a private blockchain and
it's probably a POA network
so a proof of authority network
and they're transacting over there
so when we started tenderly we poured
a lot of time and resources
be able to connect to multiple
if you're developing on multiple private
chains back then you could
have them all in one place
so you didn't have to go to a subdomain
optimism.tenderly.co and then
the thing is that you just
go to our dashboard and everything is over there
so we're extremely wrong on the private
blockchain part but how that made us
right in this multi-chain future that we're living
right now with all of the app chain stuff
can easily support chains
dynamically so if you're using a
roll up as a service provider like conduit
we can easily connect to a chain
that is spun up there automatically or if
you're deploying an app chain on your own
again you just talk to us and we can connect it to
that particular chain and what's extremely
cool is then that your community
who might be on different chains right now
they will have an additional incentive to
develop and deploy and to use your chain
because they have the tooling that they know and love
four years back we thought we were
extremely wrong but then all of these developments
started happening and we were extremely happy
that the space started moving in that direction
I think, yeah, I hear it has been
the word hyperledger that
takes me back, that's a real throwback
I remember that time as well and there was a lot of people
saying we're building on hyperledger
IBM are building this so that's what
all the corps are going to use, all the
institutions, all the serious people
they're going to choose old reliable
I think one of the cool things
I was just having this thought when you were
one of the cool things about
and using open source software
is there's the kind of community
aspect of it, you feel like you're all
I think as someone who's been a
technologist for many years
I've used a lot of technology and
a software, I've used several
software products from big companies
that get chosen, not naming
they get chosen because it's like this is the sensible
choice, this is the household
name and they've got really
good support so if we have any issues with it
quick for me to realise that
you don't actually want support
necessarily, sometimes it's better to
just have a lot of information that you can self
something doesn't work and we don't really know why
it's not in the docs, there's no
kind of information available about it
on the open internet so you've just got to
wait for someone to get back to you
and that could take a day, it could be a week
and there's back and forth and maybe
we'll be able to do something but we've got to submit
some ticket somewhere and then you're
waiting on some kind of opaque
internal process, it's another company so
there's headaches and sometimes
things don't work but I think
at least there's other people there who
are kind of in it with you
that's something that I just realised
when I had that throwback to thinking about these
commercial, if you know it's
one of the famous examples
Yeah, so I mean quite possibly
I mean I bet someone probably has been
fired at some point, I'm quite sure yeah
I'm quite sure many people
They'd be interested to hear
their stories, maybe we should get them on the
so we're kind of coming to the
second, we're into the second half of the space
right so we'll check the chat and see if anyone's
got any good questions and we'll do
some Q&A at the end if we've got some
good ones. I would like to say though
I've actually met some members of
an event and I can't remember exactly
who it was because it was a very
one of those conference weeks where it's kind of there's so
I couldn't really remember any
one particular moment standing
but I do remember I'm actually drinking
thing that's got a tenderly logo
or something and I have to say
it's one of the best pieces of merch I've ever got
and did I remember correctly
was there like a tenderly
race car or something that showed up
one of our devil's there as well so we were doing
a developer pit stop in Paris, I'm guessing
in Paris. It was in Paris
I remember seeing a picture of a car
somewhere and there was people
wearing these kind of jumpsuits like racing
suits. Yes, yes, yes. If I
recall correctly I think it
was in Paris. Yeah, I think with
our swag as well, so coming
back to the thing where I mentioned of having more
chats with these teams which are
active weekly, it's coming
support to the developers that
we're working with and we try
that in our swag as well so
to fix things around your house
we actually did tenderly branded
because if people went raving
you need magnesium in the morning so we
wanted to help hangover engineers
over there as well so even with
our swag we try to be extremely
creative as much as possible
touch, I mean even though we're all technologists
I think why Web3 is succeeding
is because there's a lot of
who are also not assholes. There's a
lot of spaces where you have a lot
but they tend to be assholes and here
I think the space succeeding and
getting bigger and nicer is that it's so
inclusive and so many people want to
help each other and now especially
things are happening around the EVM
which isn't even more Ethereum specific
again the SEBI 2 is going to be
and it doesn't have to be connected
to Ethereum but it still benefits
from the whole community and the Ethereum
community benefits back from the SEI
community. I think that's
what's extremely important
and again we try to materialize
communications, through all of our
interactions in person and online
and then also through the SWAG as well
and I'm glad that you're using the cup holder.
It's my favourite piece of SWAG.
I think that is a good point
that you make as well. One of the
things that you do feel from the space is
people are very friendly and inclusive
technical perspective people are open
they're willing to share and help
other people which I think is really
cool and it's probably not like
keep things, keep knowledge
the blockchain space we really are
building stuff together. Everyone
knows as well, everyone building stuff
boats or whatever the expression
is so I think we're definitely
it's about building stuff
it's about growing the pie
eating the pie. I think that's another one
you're trying to beat some other L1
people building the space
think and look at it. I think
stuff are basically concentrating on making
their product or whatever
they're working on the best it can be
it's never about competing
everyone knows that basically
we're all in this together
I think it has got better. As you
said, people are friendly
and I was going to ask as well
do you have events coming up
in Denver for example that people
Yes, and then again I'm going to answer
the question after I echo your statement
in the history of human technology
has there been one winner
one category winner for a certain thing
and similar thing for a blockchain
if you kill your competitor
there's a higher chance of you killing a bit
you succeeding. So I think
that mentality of abundance is
much more important than the scarcity mentality
echoing the thing that you
said there. Coming back to
team will be at East Denver
we're actually doing something that
we think is extremely fun and we
for the past two years now I think
a Tangerly War Room where
we partner with someone, in this case it's
we do a CTF. So for those
who don't know what the CTF is
it's an acronym for Capture the Flag
and that other than being a Halo and
Unreal Tournament mod in the security
a competition where people are trying
like a much smaller hackathon where people
are trying to hack or gain access
to a certain thing. In the case
of Web3 it's to exploit the smart contract
do gas golfing or similar
the spin on the Tangerly War Rooms
is that first of all they're in person
a bunch of them in our space are online
but other than because it's
in person we try to make it as
much as a real War Room as possible.
Now again for those who maybe
are hearing the War Room term for the first
time when a DeFi project for
example or any other on-chain project is getting
there's something called a War Room
where people join and try
either to save funds or retrieve funds
an extremely high stress environment
and what we're trying to do here is
simulate a highly stressed environment but
The way that we do it, it's in person
there's usually an assignment
or multiple assignments and they're driven
by a story. There's always a story
a cyberpunk story that's happening
there and then while people are trying
some of them maybe even in the physical space
music, we're trying to sell them NFTs
organize the karaoke competition at the same
a bunch of stuff, yeah I see someone
shared it here, someone shared it here as well
I think this is from the Type A one
this is a historical moment
were you present over there?
all my friends were there
it was really intense for them
so it is intense but at least
we think it's super fun and not something
like the Stanford Prison Experiment
a bunch of stuff about security, a bunch
of stuff around smart contracts
how to manage stress in these
situations as well and then people
also make new friendships in Web3
which is very important. That's one
and then another one that I want to shout
out is something called the SEAL Team Initiative
that was originally started by Samson and a couple
stressful situation but it's not
in person, it's online and they're doing
experience of how a protocol might
get exploited and they make it
tailor made for certain teams
and the thing that I'm very proud of is that
we were invited to participate
there as well so they're doing all of that
on top of the virtual networks product
let's say for example I'm a DeFi
project and I'm working with the SEAL Team
I can actually use my production
so all of my production contracts
and simulate how an attack would
look like and how I would react by using the
tenderly virtual networks
a part of that and to give back a bit
to the community because we're not charging anyone
on Sam's Twitter and actually
was messaging a bit about it to see if we could
get involved in some way. I think it was
two early days at the time but
I'm excited to see that they've kind of turned it into
what the developments will be there
and I just had a question as well so
you blast music at people and then
you mention that you're trying to sell them NFTs
or something, you had a karaoke competition
was that supposed to be part of
the fun aspect of it or was it supposed
to be putting people under pressure and
giving them a stressful environment?
Putting people under pressure
thing is looking at people who
previously came to a tenderly war room
because some teams, they had
their second, third or fourth war room
participation and they started
developing tactics so a thing
that I really like to do for example is start to
interview people and ask very dumb
questions while they're trying to
team actually had a ready-made strategy
where they sacrificed one of the four devs
to talk to me so I couldn't
giving tips and tricks to others to bring
noise-canceling headphones so
they can do that but we're trying to mitigate
part of the fun and part of the pressure
I guess stress can be fun in
certain cases, at least I hope.
You might be giving away trade secrets
here but are you going to use a Bluetooth
we turned off the Wi-Fi so people
needed a hotspot so that was like the closest
one, the closest one that we did.
Paris brought the clipper zero
and brought down the Wi-Fi themselves
it becomes extremely dark foresty at certain
occupational hazard when you're running these sorts
oriented events, isn't it?
That's one thing and then also because
the line or blur the line of
what's part of the competition
and what isn't. On one of them my
laptop was open and a guy approached me and said
honestly I have to ask you is your
laptop part of the competition because at this
point I don't know what's real and what's not
so there I think we did a very good
job but yeah, definitely.
being in that sort of environment
because it would be so far
removed from what people were used to
I can see it being a bit of both.
It can be getting them used to
working in a high pressure situation
and being out of their comfort zone and also
I can imagine it being a bit fun as well.
I think basically what I was reminded of
was that scene in the social
network where they have a hackathon
that's kind of like at some kind of
American frat house party and it's like
people racing to write as many lines
front of everyone cheering them
on and stuff. I feel like maybe
people feel a bit like that.
A lot of the time doing software development is quite an
unceremonious process. You're just
sitting in front of a computer screen in your bedroom
in an office and it's very quiet
or maybe at some point during the
you fix something or you go
onto a different error than you were facing earlier
and you're like yes, progress.
So I think it can be really fun for people
we are kind of coming towards the end
of it so I've been looking through and I was
seeing if we have any good questions for people.
what do people do if they want
to get started building on Tenderly, on
say or on say on Tenderly, whichever way
around we're saying it. I guess
alphabetical order would be
I'm singing the alphabet.
No, it's T first, isn't it?
I think having English as a second
language, like you always remember
I did that or for some reason
D E M I double S I double
S I double P P I, the song about
I remember that was one of the first American cities
I knew how to spell as a kid.
I should have just gone from the start
because I was trying to go straight from
Did I ask before that or not? I was after it.
So anyway, I should have just started from the start.
get started if they want to build on say
Sure thing. So the best place to get started
is go to Tenderly dot CEO.
You don't actually even have to register. You can
use a bunch of our tooling unregistered.
We have the most generous free tiers.
All of the developer tooling stuff is completely
free and will forever be free
Just go there, plug in your
contract and start looking at it
there. And then also follow us on
Twitter. Don't follow me. I think
the Tenderly account is much more
informative than mine. Mine is usually
intrusive thoughts between at like 11 p.m.
or 1 a.m. that I share with people
that follow me. But yeah, no, everyone should
follow about that. Follow me,
follow Terry, follow say, follow
Jimmy as well. I see who's listening
from Tenderly and follow Tenderly app
on. Everyone should follow all these accounts.
And I was actually looking at your
Twitter profile today and I saw
the tweet about On A Warfare 2
2009. And I highly enjoyed that.
So that's really cool though as well
that you've made all these tools, the developer tools
Do you receive any public
from anywhere or is that something that
you're going for in the future?
we see ourselves as a business
and we try to charge. I mean
we're a premium tool so we do try
to run this business. A thing that
in this space is that people
new as an excuse to build toys
in certain stuff. Everything does
start as a toy but at some point it has to be
a tool, infrastructure, something that people can lean
on. So we do charge people
for the infrastructure side of things
and that's how we have the company
that point of view but then again
we are the industry with the Uniswap
We've got the rocks collection
there's quite a lot of stuff that is
An experiment, I would call it that way.
rephrase it, I fully support Uniswap
socks. I fully support any type of socks
no matter how expensive they are.
Whoever knows me personally will know my sock
collection. And then for the rocks and other
stuff as well I'm just saying if someone
is building a company, so
a for profit company, I'm not saying about these
experiments or protocols and other stuff
I think people should behave
because that way we can push the
space forward. If you build something
of value people will pay for it. You shouldn't
feel uncomfortable charging for the value
I know you unmuted yourself
for a second. Now it's a very weird silence
best ever remark. I don't think I'll ever
This whole idea of giving
out public goods funding as well is
something that's very interesting.
We're still experimenting with that as well.
One thing is for sure though
public goods funding will definitely
get you a lot of attention. Whether it's good
attention or not or as people argue
about who should or shouldn't have got
You can draw your own conclusions
Because when we started for example
Gitcoin was the main thing
for public goods funding.
And as we're coming from Serbia which is a bit
of an underrepresented country when it
gets to like financing, VCs, etc.
Other than the hackathons
which is also type of public goods funding
we did get money from Gitcoin as well
from their quadratic funding there as well
and tenderly wouldn't exist without
those initiatives. So we couldn't get started
if people didn't trust us that we would
make this into something successful at a certain point.
So it should definitely exist
people who might not be able
to start certain things due to their financial
situation now have a space where they can actually
experiment and bring value.
And I'm looking forward to seeing how
the experiments go. What our
And yeah, it's great to hear that
tenderly is one of those success
one inch is another, right? Where
go places and there's a few here
today. Go and speak to tenderly
Although of course sometimes
wrong and you have to build something
that's not great and then it doesn't really work.
But that's part of the process, isn't it?
win them all except if you run tenderly
we're coming to the end of
the space now. Do you have any
parting thoughts or final things
most amazing space right now in
the world. Maybe the only
thing that can be there is the forefront
of AI and I'm not talking by the way about chat
GPT rappers, etc. I'm talking
about people who are doing foundational
work in AI similar to what you
guys in the SAE Foundation and everyone else
and I think we should enjoy the ride and try
to have as many people join us
in ten years it's going to be extremely fun talking
about these stories and saying, hey
I was in one of these first SAE
Twitter spaces and then, or sorry, X
I'm still rewiring my brain.
I was in, you know that SAE thing that you're using
every day now? Yeah, I was part
of the beginning there and I think
we should have as many people as possible be part
I agree with that. I agree with
that wholeheartedly. I think it's a great sentiment.
that I have to say is thank you so much
it's a platform that I'm going to have to
and learn the ins and outs of.
I feel like it's going to be a real
Is it Dragon Ball Z? They have cards?
No, it's Yu-Gi-Oh! But it'll be like a special
card that developers can play
to supercharge their development. So we're really
excited about that. Thanks so much for coming on.
It's been great to have you. Some really
good ground covered here. Make
sure to tune in next week everyone.
we haven't announced the guest yet but it
will be someone good. It always is.
Also, if you're interested in developing
developer group chats. We've got
one on Telegram. We've got one on Discord.
We've got a question and answer forum on
Discord where you can ask technical questions
and we also run an office hours
once a week where you can come and speak to
me primarily. I'm the host
members of the engineering team. We'll be there as
well and you can ask your technical questions
and have a bit more of a technical
involved in protocol level development
we've got a developer forum
as well where we have posts
and things like that. There's a
whole bunch of ways you can get involved
if you're a developer. Please
I guess Twitter is probably the best way
because we're on it now or X.
or go and find out more from these
come and build with us on say.
Thank you so much for listening everyone.
Have a great week. We'll see you next
week. Thanks again to Bogdan for coming