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The Orderly Collective, featuring Sonic!
Recorded: April 16, 2025 Duration: 1:14:21Space Recording
Short Summary
Sonic and Orderly Network are forging a powerful partnership aimed at revolutionizing DeFi with innovative solutions like account abstraction and gas subsidies. As the industry shifts towards greater accessibility and user engagement, both platforms are poised for significant growth, with expectations for increased stablecoin adoption and a resurgence in DeFi activity.
Full Transcription
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Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music It's actually my today, that is more than yours.
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You're working. You're working. You're working. You're working. You're working. Thank you. Music Thank you. Music Thank you. Music Thank you. Music Thank you. Music Thank you. Thank you. All right, welcome everyone to the first orderly collective spaces.
I'm Skirin Yoast, joined by Arjun and Midoji, as well as the lovely Johan Ash from Sonic.
This spaces theme will be specifically about Sonic's modular execution layer,
and orderly's unified liquid, basically how it empowers DeFi, as well as the next web of builders within the space.
I can get a little introduction from my guests. I'll start with Arjun.
Hey guys, hey guys. Looking forward to this. For those that don't know me, my name is Arjun, I'm COO for Orderly Network. I've been with the company since its inception in late 2021, mainly focused on BD ecosystem, community, working with our partners, and a bunch of other areas as well. But the ones mentioned are the ones that I enjoy the most.
areas as well but the ones mentioned are the ones that i enjoy the most
lovely lovely um and i'll do a little introduction to myself as well before i hand it over
um so newly i am the head of the community ecosystem with orderly so i'll be like a lot of these spaces as well as everything on the community side of the ecosystem
awesome can you guys hear me yes perfect perfect so my name is ash i'm the marketing lead for sonic
um been with sonic for two and a half years now you know back when it was called phantom
so i've seen a bit of everything and i'm happy to be here with you guys thanks for the invite
you're welcome
hey everyone am i audible yes yes you are yeah uh Yeah, this is Johan.
DeFi growth and DD lead at Sonic.
I've been with the company for about
nine months now.
And yeah, essentially
look into everything related to DeFi
growth and DeFi
strategy as well on Sonic.
And yeah, glad to be here and thank you for
having me.
Since I'm having tech issues, I'll get Arjun or Medoji to do it.
Please swap over.
Okay, I can take it from here.
I can introduce myself to Medoji here.
Being in orderly for two years or maybe a little bit more now.
I'm wearing many hats in the company too.
I'm doing product, BD, strategy, whatever we need.
So yeah, pleasure to be here, guys.
As always, it's a pleasure.
All right, awesome.
Maybe I'll just take over a little bit
until SKU's mic connection issues are solved.
Why don't we start with a couple of little questions.
So Ash, if I could start with you.
I'd love to understand, obviously you said you've been with Sonic for a number of years now,
especially from the Phantom days.
Could you give us a little bit of an insight in terms of like what inspired you to build
in Web3 or work in this sort of crypto space?
Yeah, for sure.
So I graduated university back in 2020 and I graduated a week before COVID hit, right?
So fresh graduate bachelor.
And then COVID hit, I was
on my way up to a ski trip, right? And the bus was canceled. So I had to fly back to
Denmark. And then obviously you're in this conundrum where it's like you were supposed
to start working or figuring out what you want to do. But then COVID hit, everything
is shut. And I started interactive media. So I wanted to do things with tech. And I read
about Bitcoin back in 2017. I'd held some since then. And suddenly I started interactive media, so I wanted to do things with tech. And I read about Bitcoin back in 2017.
I'd held some since then.
And suddenly, I started going on Twitter, and I fell into the NFT rabbit hole.
And for the next year or two, I just were part of these NFT communities,
traded NFTs, and I'm guessing a lot of the people listening
also had their start back in 21, the NFT days.
And then the bear market of 22 hit, and I had this weird skill set of I knew how to write.
I knew tech.
I knew a lot about blockchain technology and NFT and communities and stuff like that.
So back in 22, I just decided, let's go for a full-time job doing what I love,
which back then was writing.
So I got a job writing for Phantom back then,
just literally writing one or two articles a week.
Super simple stuff. writing for Phantom back then, just literally writing one or two articles a week, super simple
stuff. And then throughout 23, Sonic came on the map and sort of my role expanded throughout 23,
24 as I got my responsibilities, you know, started managing the socials, stuff like that,
and now leading the marketing effort for the past half a year.
Amazing. And I can imagine coming from a marketing and let's say
writing background, you really get to learn every sort of element from the more user sort of
focused areas to the more sort of technical details. Like, I guess it also kind of sits on
you, right? In terms of like, the content that you put out there has to be super technical,
super accurate, and also be available to different audiences that they so they can understand it as
well yeah for sure i mean back when i was writing for phantom i was sort of you know let loose to
ideate my own article so i wrote some stuff about you know phantom phantom's consensus mechanism
called the keys back then and that you know i had to read a white paper that was super technical
and i have a very i do have a very technical background i've programmed a bit in
the past so i i understood some concepts but i also had a very non-technical understanding of
it on a high level so it was really cool having to write about a very technical thing for a broader
audience to teach them about how blockchain technology actually works um so yeah you're
right it does give you a very unique insight working in marketing in crypto because you have to understand the technical a little bit, but you also have to know how to write
and explain it to a general audience. So that's been, I guess, one of our big challenges that
I think we've tackled it pretty well so far. So Ash, I would say the technical and the
non-technical pieces of marketing or in writing in general are probably some of the toughest,
of marketing or in writing in general are probably some of the toughest.
But a specific question to you here, obviously narratives play a large shift in this market
and so do Mindshare alongside those narratives.
When you guys were thinking about how the outside of the technical piece, the narrative
of the switch from Phantom to the new chain that is Sonic, how do you go about sort of
the inception of that
so that the user can really understand
what that means outside of a technical framework?
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, most people who have used Sonic
sort of know what Phantom used to be.
And it was a very old chain from back in 2019
at launch in December 2019.
So as any chain,
it was hard to keep up with the current narratives
as in Phantom because suddenly you had
the layer two narratives, the ZK narratives
that suddenly had far better performance than Phantom
because back in the day, Phantom was like
the top blockchain in terms of performance
compared to Ethereum, which it was challenging.
But then all these layer twos came on the map, zk tech came on the map and suddenly throughput was through
the roof and we had non-evms come on the map like solana and stuff like that so we you know and a
lot of stuff happened on phantom like you know multi-chain and there was some exploits as well
which you know we don't need to get into but all that, we were working very hard on some new technology on the layer one
instead of fragmenting across layer twos.
So we made the decision, let's launch something new
that isn't tied down by some old name that people recognize.
Because here's the thing, right?
A lot of these companies like Web2 companies,
Amazon, Microsoft, they will never need to rebrand.
But unfortunately, in crypto, narratives play a huge part uh fundamentals can be strong as strong as
they can be but still the narrative can you know screw over a company yeah and we had this whole
new tech stack and regardless we needed to hard fork it uh to get this tech stack up and running
because the database wasn't compatible with the Phantom database.
So we just decided let's completely rebrand it.
And I think everyone understands why we did it.
But there's also, you know, there's some things they don't understand.
For example, Phantom was the DeFi chain.
But for Sonic, we wanted to bring that back.
So we collaborated with all these big names like ave euler and we ran an
intensives program and all these things and i think that's far more effective it's if it's on
a new new chain a new brand rather than an old one yeah so the team is the same the tech is
the same but just upgraded it's just built upon the phantom tech stack and the phantom consensus
mechanism the whole thing is just an upgrade really for sure but yeah and the phantom consensus mechanism the whole thing is just an upgrade really but yeah and the narratives yeah i mean we just had to explain it in that sense if that makes
sense no really interesting and i think that's that's something that many projects don't really
go through and i can imagine it's a it's a very very difficult but also rewarding piece when you
get it right um and i obviously we see a huge sort of uptick in terms of mindshare for for sonic right
now and hope that continues.
But what I'll do, I want to spin it over to Johan a little bit and come back to my original question here is,
what inspired you to build in Web3 or crypto?
Obviously you've been with Sonic, I think you said, for the last nine months in the DeFi style position.
Where were you before and what kind of inspired that journey?
Where were you before and what kind of inspired that journey?
Yeah, I'm a lot of years ago to Ash.
So I also graduated around the same time and actually a year earlier in 2019.
And I was working with Deloitte, which is like in traditional finance, accounting, etc.
So when COVID hit, they took a bit of time to transition into it.
Little because, uh, I was from the accounting background where everything was paper heavy.
So in that time gap, you know, I, I had a natural inclination towards finance.
So, uh, like in December, 2020, I think BTC did about three X or something like that.
I just started, you know, exploring it and like more than just trading,
what sort of drew me to crypto or web three is like the B five aspect of it. And we were just six months, like fresh from D five summer.
So I started playing around and then, uh then decided to quit and pursue a career full
time. I was with Polygon and part of their DeFi growth team from early 2021 until 2024. Then I
had a brief stint with OKEx for about nine months until about August last year and then I've been with Sons. Okay awesome so
DeFi to SeFi and then back to DeFi. No like OKEx was also DeFi so yeah SeFi to DeFi and then never
look back. Amazing. Johan would you mind sharing if you can think about a defining moment or a hard lesson learned across this journey?
Yeah, I think the biggest lesson, I mean, in every company that I worked with, like there is a lot of things that you learn.
The first thing is like, you know, anything that you want in this industry, like it doesn't come easy.
Things will definitely go wrong so
uh there is a lot of noise you see people you know you know bantering with each other and the
best advice i can give is you know just putting your head down and building you know just focus
on what you're doing you know try to be the best at it and like ignore all the noise that's the best advice that i can give
when what i've picked up for the last you know over the last four years i love that absolutely
love that and i resonate with that with that very well um let me pass it back over to skew
and see if his mic is now working hey hey does this not sound patchy this time absolutely perfect interesting okay another problem then um i wanted
to touch on actually on one key point both of you guys from sonic made which is narratives right so
primary reason why i think everyone in you know this space has got into either defy or crypto was
because of some narrative right narrative carries a key thing which uh is called
mindshare it's like it's like the key word used now which is basically just um it's the buzz the
buzzword or the buzz thing at this moment right and this is highly important when it comes to i
think uh innovation because narratives and consensus and that mindset always leads into innovating
something right um and i think this is always met with certain problems right so you have like a
problem with defi whether it's you know scalability costs or just generally the tech needs to be
better right and i think i think this is a pretty good question for Sonic
in terms of what you guys aim to achieve as well as what
problems you aim to overcome.
Yeah.
Sorry, could you ask that last question again?
So the question is, what's Sonic's aim for the future as well as, you
know, what kind of problems within DeFi do you aim to overcome or beat?
Right, right. I think that the big one for 2025 for us is accessibility. Let's say I
go out onto the street and I tell someone to download this new app I found on Android
or, you know, on iOS, they could easily do it.
They could easily start using it because they know the system behind it.
They know how it works.
But if I tell them, even if they knew about crypto, if I tell them, oh, go and use this
app on Sonic, whatever, I would have to sit down with them for up to an hour to actually
teach them how to do it from actually getting S on a centralized exchange getting it like setting up a wallet teaching them our seed phrase starting that it's
it's just ridiculous actually when you think about it so accessibility is a big point for us and we're
going to achieve that mainly through account abstraction and gas subsidies so imagine if you
go on to an app let's say shadow on sonic for example and you can just well actually that's
not a good example but it's trading let's say a game you just for example. And you can just, well, actually that's not a good example, but it's trading. Let's say a game, you just jump on it
and you sign in with your email.
And in the background, what the blockchain does,
it creates a wallet for you and ties it to,
let's say your email and password, Google account,
or whatever, maybe not Google.
We don't want centralized stuff, right?
And it just creates a wallet for you.
And the app or the game subsidizes the gas fees for you.
And you can just start using the
application and at some point when you're ready you can dive deeper and actually if you want to
take whatever you get out of that game like a in-game currency and you want to transfer it
somewhere else then the game itself can teach you how to do that or maybe how to externalize
your wallet instead of having it be an account like a abstracted account and we're going to do
that at the native base layer so any
application can implement this and any application can offer their users gas through gas subsidies
and using that we can just have blockchain as the infrastructure instead of the actual product for
the user because i think that's been like misconstrued in the world of crypto the blockchain
definitely is not the product for the user it's the infrastructure
on which builders create their applications and those apps are the products um like you don't ever
see aws advertise to users right you know like it's so technical it doesn't make sense but every
website is built on aws so i think about it in the same sort of way and we're creating all the
technical pieces required for that in 2025 so that's the big goal this year yeah that makes sense so like aws is basically the highly scalable
infrastructure right and then uh example you have shopify shopify is like the front end as in the
brand front which businesses use as well as businesses can scale with, which makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Because if Sonic were to do something like ENS, right,
like names within crypto, which, you know,
people can be able to send payments to or emails or messages, right,
that completely gets rid of half of the, I think, friction
which DeFi has at the moment in terms of, you know,
being decentralized versus being centralized and the whole argument in between.
Exactly.
And we have that coming.
We have .sonic domains coming.
That's very cool, actually.
I think everyone should be doing this.
I think we should do it as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, but moving forward,
so would this probably be like the defining moment for Sonic
when you guys are able to push through that level of friction
and then being able to scale to everyday people,
as in anyone and everyone,
without that kind of technicality in
front of it yeah i mean yeah that's up to the builders right so what we're doing is we're
building all the components that allow builders to offer a seamless ux to their users um what
builders choose to do that obviously right now we're focused on d5 builders and 99 of builders
and sonic are focused on d5 uh and it doesn't appeal to a common crowd because there's a lot of risk to it.
Even me, I don't really understand concentrated liquidity, the yield tokenization.
I can explain it.
But to take advantage of it, I don't understand it deep enough.
So it's a lot of complex things happening on Sonic right now because that's what builders
are offering.
But as long as we provide the tools with which builders can offer good products, then it's
up to them what happens.
It's market demand, right?
What users want and builders fulfill those demands.
So I'm personally curious to see what happens because I can't predict it.
All we can do is provide the tools and educate builders how to use them.
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. We definitely share the same narrative in terms of enhancing the features that builders can build,
and as well as what users and users have access to in terms of actually being a part of probably what we all think is the next stage of finance, right?
DeFi, in this case.
Which also leads into why the partnership with Orderly,
which makes sense in terms of liquidity, right?
Since liquidity is what I call the nervous system of DeFi,
where the actual spine of DeFi is guys like Sonic
in my opinion, in terms of
building the spine.
Yeah, for sure.
I do ask,
how do you feel about that?
What are your thoughts
in terms of scaling
the partnership with the Waterly?
I know we have two fairly high growth DAXs,
like Boom being one.
For sure.
Probably Johan is better to speak about this.
Yeah, yeah, Johan, please.
Yeah, so I think what a lot of people are doing uh that like i've personally
seen like so i'm not a big trader myself uh but a lot of people are using perps especially to
maximize the airdrop by you know we are giving points for sonic lsts and uh other long tail a lot of people are doing is like you
know entering a spot position and then hedging using perps such as orderly and uh numerous other
things so uh there are various ways in which people are using it there are a bunch of threads also or like yield strategies of how much with
let's say something like beats or pendle or something which gives you like fixed yield on
like sts and then you can hedge the downside using orderly so there are different ways as to how you
want to do it and like from a trader's perspective also obviously you can speculate from the volatility either the upside or downside by creating positions so it really depends on
you know what kind of a user you are and uh there is like the perp volume on sonic is pretty high so
uh sonic is definitely like a pretty good network for perps purpose so the like collaboration has been pretty good
so far and hopefully like
you know obviously there is room for
a lot of improvement room for a lot of
growth so excited to see
what the future entails
right right I remember
Andre as well like
briefly mentioning
algorithmic
stable coins
what do you think about that in terms of how it
may play in the future yeah so i mean i'm not too sure about like right now there's a lot of new
regulation around stable coins so we will have to wait and watch to see you know what their comments are on
algo stables but uh i think algo stables are also like subjective until unless the regulations or
the regulators like define what exactly is an algo stable so uh you know i think it's, I guess, a cause why it's not out yet is maybe Andre's waiting for the regulators to sort of give more clarity before he sort of releases a stablecoin.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, it is sort of funny in an aspect that even though DeFi is DeFi, we still are somewhat constrained by the boomer politics,
which obviously hinders builders to some degree.
But I think this is obviously my perspective,
but I think once that barrier is at least dealt with some way,
it'll probably spark another 2020 type of DeFi run.
Well, there's a bunch of innovation,
and then we basically test the demand and then tweak products.
My theory is that everybody who knows how to use DeFi
or actually cares about DeFi is already in
the space yeah like now the question you have to ask yourself is like you know
what does it take to bring other people or like why aren't more people here so
you know it is regulation so in fact like having better regular like
regulatory clarity and making it easy people on board like whether it's through
a new stable coin or like i'm not sure like it is very important and i don't know if you can say
fortunately or unfortunately like regulation does play a big part and like a bigger part than like
most people would like in DeFi especially.
I think it's generally the uncertainty around it like no one wants to jump the
gun and then have a situation where regulators come after you just for
building.
Which I don't think is necessarily going to be a big issue,
at least this year, but we'll see.
I want to get some thoughts from Arjun as well.
How do you see the partnership rolling out through 2025 with Sonic?
So I think it's very interesting, right? We see a huge amount of influx of chains approaching orderly for
integrations. And Madoji leads this initiative on our side, right, in terms of which change we
should expand to, how we should expand to them, what the go-to-market looks like, right? And for us, the use case to deploy to Sonic was really, really high on that priority list.
Number one, the deployment, the speed, the throughput of Sonic is a huge, huge piece
for us on the orderly side. We do believe that there is a strong appetite for perps there.
But number two is also build a demand, right?
There are numerous protocols that are deciding which chains they want to go to,
ensuring if they are moving towards Sonic
and they are looking to have some sort of perps integration,
then Audley already being there helps lower that barrier to market for them.
But it also ensures that they can spend a huge amount of their time on other different products.
And I think a really strong use case for that is Navigator. And I think Navigator is a great
piece there, right? Because they were already on Sonic prior to Audley's deployment. They have their LP-based purpose model. And I love the UI actually. And
what it really does highlight or shine some light on is the benefits of Audley is that
you don't just have to have one product, right? It doesn't just have to be a perpdex, right? So
Navigator have got this LP-based perpdex. And just directly in the UI, you can select the stable pool,
the crypto pool, or the orderly pool. And I love that because as a user, I can kind of select the
type of assets and the type of pool that I want to be trading against, whether I want to be trading
in an LP-based pool, whether I want to be trading on a central limit order book with a little bit
more high liquidity and better slippage. And they really give those options, right? And then
Navigator has Forex, they have commodities, they're having tokenized stocks, I think they have Tesla
stocks already, I think they have MicroStrategy. And for me, I think that really just highlights
the great use case of a builder on Sonic being able to build a larger product suite
and complement it with orderly perps. And, you know, we have Boomdex, which are launching a
bunch of other products on top of orderly perps as well. We have, you know, an existing suite of
orderly builders that are already in the space. You know, WooFi does something, WooFi Pro does
something between, you know, 30 to $100 million of volume per day.
A good chunk of that TVL sits on Sonic.
And as we continue to move forward with Sonic, there's lots of different things that builders can do.
SKU, you kind of talked about Algo stablecoins.
These guys are going to need to be able to do a basis trade on Audley.
They may need Sonic as collateral. They may need Audley. They may need Sonic as collateral.
They may need different elements.
They may need strategy vaults.
And as we go down the route and as Sonic continues to define itself as the de facto DeFi chain,
I believe that builders within the Sonic ecosystem are going to be able to continue to leverage Audley,
either with a direct integration around their existing product suite or tapping into Audely for some sort of basis trade, as an example.
Right. So far, this is starting to sound a lot like what I've been thinking for a while,
which is essentially, I think 2025 is going to be like a 2020 version two in DeFi in terms of
builders protocols essentially actually working together again
and, you know, leaning towards and leading towards actually innovating, you know, the
next stage of DeFi, which is, you know, better products, frictionless, as well as having
more use case, more utility, et cetera, et cetera.
For sure, right?
And I think it's actually about building blocks, right?
Yes.
And if you look at the two building blocks in this specific use case, right,
you have the scalability, transaction speed, throughput that Sonic can give.
You have huge amounts of TVO that are currently, and I do
believe that TVL is going to continue to skyrocket on Sonic, right? And then you add on top of
perpetual infrastructure with Audley with 105 or 110 plus assets, multi-collateral coming soon.
These two pieces, I believe, give a really solid building block for a DeFi protocol that is thinking about what they want to build, how they want to build it, where the users are, where the TVL is, and thinking, hang on, these two building blocks are primed for my specific product use case.
I'm going to come to this chain.
Yeah, I mean, this makes a lot of sense.
sense um i mean i i can go back and like a little bit of a history loop um so a bunch of early defy
I mean, I can go back on a little bit of a history loop.
which were part of the 2020 one right they were actually originally building in 2018 2019 i think
compound was one of them um and what's what's interesting is the 2020 run was basically the
test and the water to see if you user demand was there, as well as the
business demand, which we can call builders and partners in this case, right? So when you compare
it to now, essentially, instead of a process taking like a year or six months, it's a lot
quicker than that, especially to integrate with keychains like Sunnock and Ormly,
whether it's perps or it's something more advanced.
It's honestly quite fascinating and exciting.
Yeah, without a doubt. Totally agree.
And I really do think that, you know,
I know we touched on like regulation, but the DeFi, like the 2020 DeFi summer, like if we want to call this a DeFi renaissance, whatever we want to call it, coming back into 2025 and further, it's all about building blocks, like I mentioned earlier, right? Like building the platform to allow builders to do what they want to do
and to maximize exposure. And then of course, you know, onboarding the right type of users
and finding methods to be able to build the easiest method where it feels like Web2 for them.
Right, right. And I think like a key question is obviously to, this will be to probably Madoja, Johan, and Ash, and Arjun
if you want.
But how does this partnership enable builders to come to either the orderly, Sonic, or the
combination to actually push out, let's say, like instant perps or cross-chain apps or various pools?
Yeah, I can take this one. First, sorry because I shared a tweet by mistake. I saw a new button
on Twitter and I shared a tweet here, so sorry for that. And then going back to the question, I think that there are two ways in which this partnership
has an impact.
The first is for the builders.
And basically, by having Orderly on Sonic,
we are enabling anyone to just come to Orderly,
tap into our backend in the order book
and in the liquidity layer that we have and be able to build an
exchange in a matter of days. I'm not talking about city exchange with bad liquidity and a bad UX.
I'm talking about an institutional grade perplex and you can do it in a matter of days, customize it,
just launch. So that's the first thing.
And then the second one I think is good for the users.
It is basically due to the omni-chain nature of orderly.
So that means that we are basically connecting traders
from all the major EVM chains and non-EVM chains
to include Solana under the same umbrella
with the same liquidity
shared. So we don't fragment users. That means that the Sonic community is going to be able
to trade against people that may be on Arbitrum, OP, Solana, and vice versa, right? The people
in Arbitrum might be able to get connected with a guy on Sonic that is willing
to open the opposite position.
So yeah, that's probably the most impactful things about the partnership.
Very, very interesting.
Any thoughts from you, Johan?
I think he may be okay.
Okay.
Well, I know from the orderly side, and Arjun can touch on this too, we have quite a large
aim at least this year to really enable developers within the orderly ecosystem.
So what that means is essentially providing
current and future development toolkits.
So that being very easy to integrate into orderly
if you want to launch your index,
as well as, you know, future,
a very easy process for launching a DEX.
For instance, you know, you go to orderly,
then you go to potentially an AI chat,
and you say, you know, what you want to call your DEX,
and you can essentially build it within, you know,
like four or five lines.
Yeah, so let me go back on a history lesson to use your words here, Skew.
So if we roll back about 18 months ago, maybe more,
and I tweeted about this the other day, actually.
day actually um audley had two builders on top of it we were deployed onto two chains
Audley had two builders on top of it.
We were deployed onto two chains.
and i would say integration maybe took you know 12 to 18 weeks if i'm honest with you
now we're in a position that um depending how you're integrating all the different plug and
play widgets that we have with audley you can integrate audley with a matter of days or maybe
even a matter of weeks depending if you're creating your your full UI yourself. And there's four or five different methods to be able to directly integrate with
Audly. The next iteration of what we're doing there is what we're going to call decks as a
service, where if a team comes to us and they don't have the ability to do it, we can, I don't
want to use the word churn, but I'm just going to say churn, we can churn out a DEX in a matter of hours for said party, right? The iteration after that,
that's kind of just a bit of proof of concept, like if this out-of-the-box DEX-as-a-service
works. As we move forward, moving into a fully permissionless AI agent style environment where, like Skew mentioned,
you can upload a logo or you can ask the agent to create a logo, create a theme for you,
create a whole name, a visual persona for the decks, and then off you go to the races within
a matter of hours. You have your own perp decks up and running, right? We don't want to see thousands and thousands of perp decks on the market.
I don't think that's optimal.
But what we want to do is hugely lower the barrier to entry for a new project to be able
to come in, create a new use case for their product, widen their existing product offering,
right?
If I'm an AMM and I have earn vaults and swap mechanisms,
let me tap on and add a perp dex as well, right?
Let me do it in a matter of hours.
I've already got hundreds of thousands of users.
This is just widening my product offering.
And I really do think as we step towards this dex
as a service style product offering,
we're going to see a lot more people come to the market.
A lot more users have the ability to stay with a brand or a project that they like
instead of jumping from dap to dap.
And I'm a big proponent of DeFi super apps, me as a specific user.
And this is why I think the largest centralized exchanges,
whether you're an OKX, a Binance, whatever it is,
really corner the market in terms of giving everything that the user wants.
If I want Spot, if I want Earn, if I want Launchpad, if I want Perps, I can do it all
in one app.
So being able to get to the point where we can offer this as a service style function
to existing projects, so immediately if they decide to do it today, next week they can
have a brand new revenue stream
and a brand new product offering.
I really think that's just going to help these go-to-market strategies.
Oh, definitely.
Because if you think about it, they have, and this also goes into, you know,
the launching governance pathway for Audely,
which essentially, you know, would allow them to provide a proposal.
So, you know, say this builder and projects want to build a DAX, right?
And obviously, they can come to orderly because they get all the resources that builders need,
which is obviously like the tech stack, the liquidity, the partners.
And that obviously, being a part of a project and knowing that costs can quickly creep up for a lot of these small projects, a I think is probably a game changer,
not only just for DEXs,
but you can apply this for various products
and forms within DeFi itself,
which I think is quite important.
And obviously, like, you know,
who should actually care about this?
I think, you know, anyone that, you know,
has, like, a good idea and wants to build it,
essentially, orderly is looking to become that place,
at least for you.
Without a doubt.
You know, whether that's dexas apps infra startups wallets l2s um speaking that there's the sonic here for that too
um all right leading forward i have quite a question which is is to everyone. What do you guys think, you know, DeFi,
the infrastructure within DeFi is headed within, you know,
say next six months or even up to like two years,
depending how far out you guys look.
Anyone in particular?
Anyone.
I mean, I can start.
I think frictionless Omnichain products
are probably going to become
kind of like what Uniswap was in 2020.
It became like the foundation for liquidity pools
and cross-Ethereum dApps, essentially.
I think that's a good point.
I think that everything is going to be omni-chained to some extent.
Or maybe even if apps just decide to stay native to a specific chain,
it should be very easy for the user to access that without even realizing
or noticing that he's moving or she is moving between chains, right?
I have kind of a contrarian take on this and is that I think that we have plenty of infra right now.
What we really need to do is is start using the infra that we have
and connecting the wires to enable what you guys were talking about
at the beginning, right?
A more accessible space, new ways to onboard new users.
Because as you said at first, the guy that is already interested in DeFi is here.
He's using the platforms.
But the new wave of users are probably the ones that we have to approach.
And I think that that's probably the evolving sector in the coming months and years.
Consumer apps already using the infra that we have.
already using the infra that we have um yeah that makes all the sense because um what i've seen in
Yeah, I think so.
statistics like uh analytics run is the the mobile user space has grown uh since 2023 a ton and
obviously the biggest driver of that was probably you know meme coins being launched from Pumped Up Fun as well as
Moonshot's support as well. The adoption of apps like Moonshot, which essentially bridges that gap
between the consumer, which is typically constrained to an iPhone or a Samsung or a tablet,
consumer which is typically constrained to an iphone or a samsung or a tablet um you're considering
like how how many people use like apple pay for example so like it's all kind of moving towards
mobiles potentially uh i think that could be like a huge uh like probably a huge opportunity um in fact are you guys uh at sonic like ash are you
guys planning to move into uh targeting mobile users or you know growing uh mobile apps for
example uh yeah i mean i can speak to the social side right we've we've recently switched to a so we every graphic we had every video was 69 format which is every monitor
is 16 9 right um but like most people are on mobile so i've advocated for i think ever since
i joined phantom or sonic two and a half years ago i've advocated for a mobile first approach
so you know we've recently focused on having four three aspect ratio on all graphics, on all videos instead.
And for example, I always recommend when people are...
Here's the thing.
In DeFi, most people actually use desktop because the mobile experience, wallet experience is so shit.
But over time, I always advocate people to have a mobile first approach.
Me personally, when I write tweets, I design the line spacing
and the amount of words and lines
and stuff like that as a mobile first
and then I check what it looks like on desktop.
Same thing with articles
and all this kind of stuff.
I always take a mobile first approach.
I think everyone should do that, honestly.
Interesting.
I actually don't do that.
I mean, if I'm parsing on posting on x it's usually if it's
from my phone it's like shitpost but if it's from computer then it's obviously you know something
curated which which makes a lot of sense because yeah uh when you're in computer you actually have
everything in front of you that you need so then um you know with things like the Sonic ENS, for example,
and account abstraction.
Would that not be enough foundationally
to enable mobile users?
It would, yeah, for sure, for sure.
I mean, so that's the thing.
That's the thing we're working towards, right?
That the main challenge is not the fact that, I mean,
like most people use websites on mobile, right?
The problem is the wallet experience.
You know, you go out of your browser to sign it and MetaMask, for example, never works.
Rabi wallet is good, but then you have to go into the in-browser wallet and it's just
a big mess.
For example, Solana is trying to fix that with their dedicated Saga phone.
But unfortunately, it's a piece of shit Android, right? so you don't want to buy that as your main phone so there's a big challenge because of the security
aspect of it um but yeah i mean all we can i mean yeah excuse with account abstraction that that no
longer becomes an issue because people don't actually need to set up a wallet so hopefully
we see a lot more mobile apps.
Yeah, I mean, speaking on account abstraction,
you could technically create it from a desktop, right?
And let's say there's like Sonic mobile apps, for example, right?
Or even like all of these, right? You could sign over it kind of like, you know,
when you have a ledger and you can use the ledger app
and you can view your ledger app and you can
view your assets on the app right but you can't uh move it or do anything without signing it right
um let's yeah I mean I can't speak to the tech but yeah I'd probably assume that I mean there
are security trade-offs obviously I don't think account abstraction will ever be as safe as
having your hardware wallet but then again I don't think account abstraction will ever be as safe as having a hardware wallet.
But then again, I don't think the biggest challenge in crypto is not security, in my opinion.
Most attacks are not security-based.
It's phishing attacks or social engineering attacks.
That happens in the Web2 world, too.
That's very true.
I mean, the biggest challenge is accessibility, right?
Yes.
In my opinion.
Yeah.
I think I spoke on Omnichain being probably the catalyst of six months to a year.
I think beyond a year, the next catalyst, at least for DeFi or even crypto as a whole,
is probably actually going to be consumer apps.
That would be like mobile apps and such.
Yeah.
What do you think, Madoji?
Yeah, I think so. Like I had this chat with a lot of VCs of late, like they keep investing in protocols,
like specific protocols, but I think that they are noticing how consumer apps are,
you know, turning into the scene.
When you go and do an investment decision and say, okay, I can invest in a DeFi protocol
that it's going to do, luckily, or onboard a bunch of TVL, or I can onboard or invest
in a consumer app that it's going to attract a bunch of different users paying a commission and it's going to generate 50 million in revenue in a few months, as we've seen with Moonshot
and other apps.
And I think that the guys are like something's clicking their mind and saying, OK, this is
where we can really make money.
So I'm seeing some kind of pivot to those consumer apps.
And as I said at the beginning, I
think that that's probably going to be the future.
We have plenty of infra and good tech in the space.
It's just that it's not very accessible, not even
in the app store.
You can't find too many apps in the app store related to crypto
by from centralized exchanges.
It is, I guess, because of regulations, because when you try to lease your app in the App Store,
they will just get it out because it's not compliant with the rules.
So probably is that.
I think that in a few years, we will see way more defy apps or apps
in the app store um using defy and crypto yeah i i think so as well um that that would obviously be
pretty huge um actually speaking on wallets i think one of the better wallets at least in
centralized exchanges is is probably OKEx's.
And this is obviously a question towards Johan.
How do you see DeFi taking on a competitor to OKEx's wallet
in terms of a consumer mobile app?
Yeah, so there are a lot of applications like
there is an app called like efi app.com there are a lot of mpc wallets coming up
you know smart accounts account abstraction etc and Sonic also has something called fee monetization, which indicates to
onboard or just absorb the cost of gases and like write it off as user acquisition costs. So
centralized exchanges sort of give like a web to feel. So we are slowly seeing like a lot of
B5 applications also move in the, like in a similar direction and change like
sonic make it possible and like economically feasible because the gas is so low and you know
we have fm like gas rebates also in the form of fm so uh i would like we are nowhere close but i
think it is a step in the right direction like ash said like
people should be like none of the e5 applications are also designed for the mobile like a lot of
the devs just have like desktop specific applications so uh i think in the next few
years we will like inch closer and closer towards like competing with okx etc and i think in the next few years we will like inch closer and closer towards like
competing with okx etc and i think the best example to look at like how and like that
competition is definitely possible is like hyper liquid eating into the like futures market of
like both binance uh you know by bid. So I think they have about ..
So if they can do it, I'm sure other applications or other
Web3 apps can also if they improve their UX.
Yeah, I actually agree with that.
Because I know it's kind of two parts.
A lot of the space has been kind of not wanting direct competition with
Binance. Hyperliquid's team is quite headstrong in terms of their leadership and their narrative
as well. So for them to take on the big guys and then also prove that a DEX can do it, I
think has opened a lot of doors for a lot of DeFi and DEXs in terms
of being like, OK, it's possible, which is a really good thing as well, because now DEXs can
then see exactly what users need and want, as well as how do, for chains like Orderly and Sonic,
how do you then enhance the experience for builders to
then you know take advantage of a potential big boom uh sorry could you ask that question again
um i mean i was just saying, everything lines up.
Since Hyperliquid has taken on
such a big contender of Binance,
it proves
that
Dex's shouldn't be, per se,
intimidated by Binance's
dominance over the market.
That Dex can do
the same as well as it actually improves
the UX for not only traders and users,
but also better toolkits for builders
to actually get in on the same kind of demand
and potential boom.
And I think that's definitely something
you guys at Sonic are monitoring.
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, there's a use case for everything.
I mean, looking at everything,
like competing with each other,
it's not always good in my opinion.
So yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I mean, I think a good example
is obviously how you guys went from like Phantom
to then Sonic.
And this is kind of like,
you know,
I compare it like from,
from the perspective of a developer or builder,
it's like V1,
And then there's going to be like,
obviously V2.5,
which is,
you know,
how do you like step up and scale your tech even more,
you know?
Yeah.
Actually,
speaking of that, what's, what has been, you know um actually speaking of that what's what has been you know one of the bigger lessons
since um since since launching sonic
um i mean i can speak for the marketing so i mean so the marketing was quite dry back in the day
it's like one tweet per day, like not on the weekends.
And one of the big lessons we took is we looked at every other project that had a lot of mindshare.
And they had a very playful approach while also being serious.
A lot of Web2 companies started doing the same.
Years ago, Wendy started doing it.
Brian Ayer has started doing it.
The social media, it doesn't necessarily need to reflect the actual state of the company just needs to have mindshare
and you can get that through many different ways obviously there are those that go go way too far
like for the litecoin is a great example of i wouldn't say they took it too far because you
know it works well for them but they started started tweeting like, due to the marketing condition,
I now identify as a meme coin many months ago.
And since then, they barely have posted anything serious.
So for me, that's taking very far.
For us, we have a balanced approach.
We have fun.
We have memes.
We also have serious stuff.
Just to reflect the internal culture,
we don't take everything too seriously. It's not corporate.
And we want the social media to reflect that.
That's one of the biggest, I think, improvements we've made
on the public-facing side.
As for the tech and all that, I can't really speak to that
because I'm not building it.
Okay, then what is one of the bigger lessons learned
in terms of the development side, Johan?
From the tech side, or are you referring to like Deep?
So I'm also not from the tech team.
Okay, maybe in terms of the DeepEye scope.
Yeah.
This is, I can say, like, the fourth chain that I've been part of,
and I was part of, like, the previous chains also from the beginning.
So we just took, you know, the existing team is also, like, pretty experienced.
uh and you know the existing team is also like pretty experienced so we just do the links and
try to like you know try to apply all the correct things uh not saying we have done everything
correct like we have made mistakes that we already know of and we will uncover them you know as time
goes by but uh the main or the most important thing is like
rather than throwing incentives the goal is to build like a very store a very strong backbone
of d5 like you know having the best taxes the best lending markets best like yield tokenization
perps etc and that sort of builds a backbone for other DeFi protocols to build on top of.
So I think the spine of Sonic is pretty strong.
It can always be improved upon, but, you know, we're working based on that
and also focusing on like the right kind of assets, such as like USDC, et cetera,
like velocity. like the right kind of assets such as like usdc etc like the high velocity and as a result you know
it generates revenue you know volume etc that makes the entire ecosystem healthy so by focusing
on like a more sustainable approach like we've managed to do like better than we expected and uh we want to do like we
want to keep the momentum going and like we are at about like a billion dollars in tbl now and
hopefully we can grow uh and also like keep the metrics up at the same time right right and i
mean we we both know this quite well which is is good products, is good marketing in itself.
It does a lot of the heavy lifting for you in a nutshell.
Speaking on that, though, what kind of feedback
did you get from either builders, traders, or just generally
CT that helped to shape what Sonic is today?
I think the feedback has been, most of it has been pretty positive.
We have a pretty small team.
Like Ash said, we don't have a very corporate culture.
We're very hands-on.
I would say a lot faster than the chain and I think the biggest
edge that we have which builders sort of like is we actually use the tech and use the underlying
apps on Sonic which a lot of the other chains don't so when they you know come with like a problem or like if they want feed or act that
we actually use the chain you know we use the apps and like understand how it works and what
the problem actually is uh it's helped us to work better with the various partners we have like from
infra providers apps wallets etc like you name it uh i think the feedback so far is like
definitely been like pretty positive and you know given that we had to do a rebrand like we had to
put in 2x the effort that another chain had because you know we didn't have like we didn't
raise any funds uh you know we we don't have we
is chilling yes etc so like the marketing team they had to put in like uh three four
x uh the work that you know some other chains have so i think uh so it has been like pretty
good and you know we're hoping to like continue the same culture very very
nimble light on our feet and uh having like a very small team that allows us to be like very
proactive yeah it allows you to be like quite you know as people say locked in or focused
in terms of being able to like being able to push things and actually take certain risks to see
what kind of demand there is for this kind of product
or how it changes the UX as well,
which I think is obviously very, very key
in terms of where DeFi is going to head into.
Before we wrap this up um what kind of bold takes
or predictions um do you johan and ash have for i think the rest of this year it can be
d5 could be crypto um either
uh i think yeah oh you want to go ahead no no go ahead go ahead yeah stable coins are like picking
up in a big way especially with like the change in regulatory outlook so we are seeing a lot of
stable coins and like yield bearing stable coins also because uh payments is one of the biggest use cases of crypto so uh we are also going like in
that direction in a big way with native usdc coming next month so i think yeah the amount
of stable coins on chain is going to i would say at least increase by 50 before the end of this year
that's massive um it's kind of similar to what i'm thinking as well
because i've heard both publicly and privately that a lot of you know country treasuries are
looking heavily into um circle um yeah specifically uscc as well as like how uh things like omni chain
vaults actually work you know for work for the traditional version which would
then be the money market
you have different currencies
essentially as well as different treasuries
and they borrow against each other and the lending
which is essentially
deeper
right Ash, what were you going to say what is that it's just very very short and simple it's
not that bold but actually it's very much alongside with what johan said i think it's
finally time americans stop hating on the euro and give us some european some respect
like the euro coin by circle is going to take off i think you think so yeah i mean there's
every piece of like stablecoin yield on chain for years has been historically usdc
i held euro coin back when like literally the few days after it launched i got some
back when it was like like a few million market cap or something like that i couldn't do anything with it i just wanted to have my euros on chain but now like
you have ave deploying euro markets on other chains so like there's finally opportunity there
and i think most people don't actually realize it yet uh and that's i'm personally excited for that
because let's say like you're basically you don't want to have the risk of a fluctuating currency and you want your capital to be denominated
in euros you cannot do that on chain while earning the same yield that's been offered
to USDC for years so I'm excited for that this is actually technically what I would
call market edge uh unironically because you know that the trade tariffs currently which
is heavily impacting the u.s dollar specifically
as well as like the yeah that's exactly the reason why it's boomed right yeah it took it took that
much to make it happen that makes sense so kiss and now that's what we've mentioned uh unironically
maybe bullish in the euro which i would have never thought but But hey, you know, a trade is a trade.
It's crazy how much the dollar is down.
Yeah, no, I was actually surprised how much it took a hit. Because typically in risk-off conditions,
you see more demand flow, like COVID as an example.
You saw a lot of demand into the USD and Treasuries.
Everyone now views America as a risk,
actually, like an actual risk, which is crazy,
but also makes sense at the same time.
So then obviously you get a lot of inflow
into the euro financial system.
So that would be obviously anything euro probably
within DeFi.
I think it'd be pretty smart to even go into the Swiss side
and get access to the Swiss traditional market.
That'd be massive.
You should actually have a look at that
since it's gone up a lot in value
since everyone's trying to hedge their net worths
in Switzerland basically.
And then obviously the growing market in Japan.
I haven't even looked at this.
I actually need to look at that. That's crazy.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, I think we'll wrap it up here.
Honestly, big thank you
to both of you.
Johan, Ash, Midoji, Arjun.
He's gone to a meeting now.
I think fantastic insights.
Yeah, ironically, I'm very bullish on Sonic and Audely
as well as our partnership going forward.
As well as, you know, if you're listening to this,
I think you should follow these guys.
They definitely know what they're doing in terms
of the present and future, as well as if you're
able to reach out to me directly if you want to be part
of these spaces or you want to get involved
in either Orderly or Sonic.
And I'll drop the Discord as well below this afterwards.
Thank you guys.
Thank you. Really good space.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, it was fun.
Thanks, everyone.
Have a good day.
See you all later.
Bye. Thank you.
Host
Orderly
from
Orderly Network
