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The Ordinal Show
Recorded: April 21, 2025 Duration: 1:55:18Space Recording
Short Summary
The Ordinals Show has unveiled exciting developments in the Bitcoin ecosystem, including the launch of Alkanes and its innovative token Diesel, aimed at enhancing programmability and miner incentives. As Bitcoin's market cap continues to grow, discussions around its potential to surpass gold highlight a significant trend in the crypto space, indicating increasing adoption and investment.
Full Transcription
Thank you. I like the way your sparkling earrings lay
Against your skin so brown
And I want to sleep with you in the desert tonight
With a billion stars all around
Cause I got a peaceful, easy feeling
And I know you won't let me down, cause I'm already standing on the ground.
And I found out a long time ago
What a woman can do to your soul
Oh, but she can't take you anyway
You don't already know how to go and i got a peaceful easy feeling
and i know you won't let me down
Cause I'm already standing on the ground Thank you. I get this feeling I may know you as a lover and a friend.
This voice keeps whispering in my other ear.
Tells me I may never see you again. I know you won't let me down. I'm already standing.
I'm already standing.
Yes, I'm already standing on the ground Good morning, Bitcoiners!
That's right, you're here at the Ordinals Show!
I'm Trevor.BTC, managing partner at the bitcoin frontier fund
and co-founder of pizza ninjas i'm here with my co-host you've listened to this show 50 times and
can you say his name right is it yan jan or yan anyway he's the cso and expert in my man with
the plan in the king of btc sparta leonitis our in-house nfg history expert and co-founder of ord.io and we are here to talk
about bitcoin ordinals brc20 runes cat 20 counterboard l2s the bitcoin cult laserized
lightning stack side chains and all the latest technologies on the leading edge of bitcoin with
some of the smartest people in this space we host the show monday mornings at 10 30 am eastern
and wednesday nights at 6 30 pm eastern to hit all the time zones for the good word
about this new movement of art culture media trading tools and new kinds of digital assets
being built on Bitcoin layer one ordinals what for those of you just tuning in for the first time
where have you been ordinals and inscriptions are a new kind of non-fungible token on Bitcoin but
ordinals this is the tip of the spear and a new movement of innovation on the world's first largest
and most secure blockchain Bitcoin more important than any technology is the cultural change that we're witnessing every single day
developers are pouring in and innovation is accelerating and that's what we're here to talk
about and with that guys we have a open stage today guys you know market's up actually bitcoin's
going up guys you should be more excited we want to see those requests coming in if at any time
during the show you'd like to join us here and speak on the stage, feel free to smash that pro button in the bottom left-hand corner of your screen,
request to speak, and join us on the stage.
So I am super excited to be here, and I'm glad that you're all here with me.
I pinned a tweet to the top, letting everyone know that we're live.
Please take a second to look at the tweet at the top, give it a like, give it a retweet,
show us some love for the algorithms, and welcome more people into this space.
Also, you know, to hit that other button in the bottom right- hand corner of your screen with your comments and questions, we'll read them
throughout the show. Don't forget to follow the Bitcoin Ordinal Show on Twitter, on X,
at The Ordinal Show. Subscribe to our sub-stack newsletter, link in bio. We post weekly recaps
in the newsletter and RSVP links for future shows, as well as the condensed version of
the show on Apple and Spotify podcasts, so you never miss what's happening on the leading
edge of Bitcoin.
And with that, I'm going to turn it over to Leonidas to introduce today's show.
All right.
Good morning, Trevor.
Good morning, Jan.
What's up, guys?
Yeah, let's do this.
So Rune's celebrated a pretty big anniversary yesterday.
Rune's turned one years old, so congratulations to everyone who
was there for that and then
has been holding Runes since then. It's been a pretty
crazy year. A lot has
definitely happened since then.
Yeah, that
definitely was a special moment
that I think a lot of people were
just excited to celebrate.
Little win for the
space, making it a year there.
I think, you know, Ordinals is now like two and a half years old, which is like insane.
We've been doing this show for, you know, over two years now, which is kind of wild.
Yeah, look, Bitcoin popped up really nicely late last night as well.
late last night as well.
We're up over $88,000 now, which is awesome to see.
And yeah, like, look, I think I don't really know.
Like there wasn't a ton of like crazy ordinals or runes stuff over the kind of weekend here
since our last show.
I know that people are talking about alkanes a lot.
We may do a segment on that coming up here in one of our shows very soon, but, um,
you know, I'm not an expert on out games to be able to talk about it, to be completely
frank with you guys.
Um, I've talked with Tago a little bit, but, um, very much not, not the, uh, super expert
there.
Um, I'm trying to think guys, what else?
Like Trevor, uh, Jan, uh, if you guys have anything we can chat about,
we'd love to throw some more things on the docket here.
But, Jan, I talked with a bunch of the other Twitter spaces over the weekend,
and the general vibe is that everybody thinks of you as, like,
the workout nutrition guy.
Like, I think of you.
Who did you talk to,idas tell me I think they think of me
as like the just dog shiller and then you're kind of like the like nutrition they even even more than
the working out I think for some reason they think nutrition um but uh yeah yeah that's good I like
it I like it maybe I should start posting
yeah man it's not a bad thing to be known for um I think you're trying to
make the space you know a little healthier I think that's a good thing
and um I mean I think of you just as my friend
you know like you work at Xverse you do like to be fit
but yeah I think like the the kind of persona you've created that maybe people kind of more casually know you just through seeing your tweets definitely think of you as like the nutrition fitness guy, which I kind of found that funny.
You kept getting brought up randomly in conversation.
It's pretty funny.
Like I didn't bring it up.
People just randomly would bring your name up and
talk about i spent like 12 hours on the twitter space with uh maybe i should get brian johnson
on our space you know and uh we should talk nutrition with him yeah we got it it's it's
no longer the ordinal show um by popular demand it's going to be the nutrition show no look guys uh we got you know
we got a big week ahead i could see i could see bitcoin making a big comeback this week actually
um you know we'll see but what's the catalyst leo what is the catalyst because i think the
world is still pretty fucked up so does that mean that you know people are flying to... I think gold is ripping, right?
I've been hearing a lot that China is going all in on gold
because obviously they're trying to fight with the US pretty hard right now on the terrace and everything.
So China is going through some gold mania.
And so everybody else is going to Bitcoin.
Is that kind of the reason here?
It's probably, I mean, it's all interconnected.
My kind of view, which maybe Trevor will have a much better, more informed take here.
But my kind of view is that people freaked out with all the tariff stuff that happened
like a week or two ago.
And then the tariff stuff has kind of chilled a little bit.
Like people aren't as like freaking out about it anymore. It doesn't feel like we're just going
to plunge into a great depression. So it's like, it's less that there's some great catalyst and
more that there's not this like general, you know, scared vibe on, you know, the timeline.
That's really it. It's like, people are less, people are moving on with their lives, dude. It's
like, nobody's thinking on that, like tariffs are going to send the world into some like spiral or something
like this i think people are a little bit more chilled out so it's it's removing that not that
it's completely removed it's definitely not but just in general people aren't as freaked out as
they were two weeks ago so it's kind of like back to normal i kind of hear tariff now and i'm kind
of like yeah i'm boring let's move i'm gonna now and I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm boring.
I'm going to move.
I don't really care to hear what the thing about the tariff is.
It's just like move on.
If something really big happens with tariffs,
I'm sure I'll hear about it.
But for now it sounds kind of like nothing's going to happen for a while.
So yeah, Trevor, I don't know if you want to add anything there, man.
My take was just people are less freaked out, I guess.
Have you guys seen gold?
What gold has been doing?
What is gold doing?
Yeah, I haven't.
I need to look it up, but apparently, and this could be, like, this is kind of hard to believe,
which I think is why it's pretty remarkable, and I wanted to quickly fact check this,
but apparently gold is, like, outperforming S&P 500 right now over like a pretty long time period.
Like I think it was like 20 or 30 years.
Like if you look back, gold is like essentially outperforming the S&P 500, which is crazy because it's exactly what the gold bugs have been saying it's going to do in this type of macro environment where you're not clear.
you're not clear, like, okay, is, you know, are we going to enter World War III? You know,
Like, OK, is, you know, are we going to do World War Three?
like China, US, you know, sort of like aggressive, aggressive international policies entering,
you know, the stage. Gold is doing exactly what people said it would. And in a way,
Bitcoin is kind of doing that too. I mean, you'd think Bitcoin would be, would have,
you know, been affected a lot more, but it's been pretty resilient in this current environment. So it does show kind of Bitcoin sort of being treated a little bit like digital gold.
I mean, think about it. If you're convinced right now, if you're, you know, someone who manages a
lot of money and you're thinking like, OK, I need to reallocate my portfolio because
international tensions are increasing and things are just getting sketchy with these tariffs,
what are you going to do? If you're a traditional finance guy, you're probably going to go
to gold. But again, think of all the problems with gold. It's very heavy. You can't transport it
very easily. And you probably are going to have to get some derivative of gold if you just want
the convenience of how to go in and out of it. But if you know about Bitcoin, I know, get some derivative of gold if you just want the convenience of how to go in and out
of it. But if you know about Bitcoin, I mean, again, like, you know, I think people who are
looking at like the tensions internationally are thinking about, okay, maybe I need to open a bank
account overseas or something, you know, how do I protect, how do I protect my wealth basically in
this environment? And like, you know, why, why go open a bank account in the Cayman Islands or something when you can just use Bitcoin if you can get over the hump of figuring it out?
I wonder if everybody goes to new technology eventually.
I never thought I'd see some my parents on like facebook right but you know getting them over that hump of like
understanding a private key understand cryptography and just like you know like my my dad can barely
use his password manager i don't even think he knows like there's a password manager on his
computer you know yeah man look i hear you i hear you i think the gold thing's interesting like i'm just looking a
little bit here gold's up 46.3 percent in the past year which is absolutely insane for that's crazy
where's peter shit man yon it's 23 trillion dollars okay like this is this is like you know
bitcoin in five or ten years basically right and it just
shows you this is where like all the bitcoin skeptics just fall apart it's like look you know
gold is just walking the path it's like you know gold got its etf 10 years before you know btc but
it's it's you know so it's more mature of an asset. But to me, there's just no question this is the path that BTC is going on.
And I don't know, man.
It's not even that crazy.
Gold's $23 trillion, and it's not like the world is freaking out.
Oh, my God, gold's $23 trillion.
Most people don't even know about it.
I wasn't even following this, really.
My point is like
bitcoin is only like 2 trillion so bitcoin can do a 10x and it's like we still probably have
way room to go after that like yeah i don't know man i think like yeah i just think bitcoin's gonna
like 100x over the next like 25 years or something like that probably i think the cat's out of the bag and i hope you're
right out of the bag i hope you're right yeah like i don't know fundamentally like two trillion
dollar bitcoin isn't impressing me at all right now to be quite honest why can't we have 10 trillion
dollar bitcoin by the end of the year even it's like i don't know if we can do 23 trillion dollar
gold we can do 10 trillion dollar bitcoin i don't think that's that insane at all
but i don't know we'll see we'll have to we'll have to wait and find out trevor had some very
good takes there um young you're gonna start buying some gold yeah but you know gold all
time high that's pretty crazy right like we should call up peter shift get him on the on the show
again and like you know let's talk let's talk let him fuck bitcoin for a little bit no you remember that show that we did with him yeah that was fucking hilarious man i got like i can't like
dude there's a lot of moments of the show that i like half can't believe they happen like i just
remember like peter shit yeah man i don't know i don't know. I don't know. I just remember, you know, the lore of Peter Shippo. I don't know.
I don't know.
The guy's, yeah.
He's an interesting character.
I see we got Tom on stage.
Tom, are you a secret gold bug?
I was.
I felt like, yeah.
I mean, there was a time when I felt like, yeah,
that gold was very, very much undervalued. But I was, yeah, I mean uh also kind of echoing your statements uh leonidas
thanks for having me on stage you trevor john snoop toshi what's going on and uh yeah to say
like gold is just appreciating because uh you know at the same time the bitcoin is because of all the
market uncertainty and i don't think it's a coincidence that they're moving together and
like surging ahead like this because you know as many of the people in the audience know it's considered a hedge against volatility and uncertainty in the
market so i guess we're seeing some like uncertainty like in a geopolitical sense
that's playing out in gold and everything but much respect to you guys thanks for having me
yeah man i think it's interesting i've been hearing the you know flight to uncertainty
take for bitcoin for a while and i think bitcoin's just always been a little bit too speculative. I say this and it really offends some maxis. But like in its current state, I just view Bitcoin as being a little bit more like a meme coin than like gold. Like it's it's fun. It's super volatile. And it hasn't fully, you know, implanted itself in, you know, everybody's brains worldwide yet, where maybe gold has a little bit more.
I think Bitcoin gets there, though.
And I think Bitcoin becomes even a stronger fight to safety.
The real flippening is not ETH and Bitcoin, for the record, in case anybody needed to be told that. The real flippening has always been from day one of
Bitcoin's, you know, Genesis block is Bitcoin going after gold's market cap. Yeah, gold is an
asset that is like, it's not truly a fixed supply because people mine it still, right? But it's,
you know, it's somewhat of a similar narrative, right? And Bitcoin is just the digital version of gold.
It's like literally that simple.
I think that's the narrative that probably is best for Bitcoin's price, right?
And it makes a lot of sense.
It has a lot of the same properties.
And I do think, you know, gold is clearly succeeding.
And that is absolutely a win for its little brother, Bitcoin.
And yeah, I'm hoping that Bitcoin can follow in the footsteps of gold over the next decade
year and flip gold hopefully sooner rather than later.
We'll see.
Could be totally wrong that it happens soon or late.
I don't know. But I think gold being at $23 trillion just kind of makes me think that
all of these Bitcoin bears who are thinking that this is unprecedented that Bitcoin hit $100,000
and all this stuff are really, yeah, it's really not that crazy. It's really not that weird that
Bitcoin is 9% of the market cap of gold. I think that's a very, very reasonable place for Bitcoin to be at.
And I think it can move up to 20% and 30% and 40%.
So we'll have to watch this a little bit closer on this show, Trevor.
I haven't seen gold kind of surging like this pretty much ever.
gold kind of surging like this pretty much ever.
Like I'm looking at the sort of like 15-year gold price chart
and gold is literally going parabolic.
So I'm not sure what that means for the rest of the world's asset classes,
but it's good for gold and it's probably really good for Bitcoin.
And the downstream effect of good for Bitcoin is that, you know,
Bitcoin pulls along the rest of this industry, right? Like Bitcoin, you know, there's really
like no way that Bitcoin is going to go to 200,000, for example, and all of our like altcoins
and NFTs don't double. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, you know, there's probably some
people who are like, you know, Bitcoin is going to go to 95% dominance. I don't really think so.
I think like the dominance kind of swings back and forth.
And we're kind of at a high point for Bitcoin dominance now.
And probably altcoins will have their moment again.
And we'll have to see what happens there.
I see we have Zan on stage.
Hello, Zan. Welcome to the Ordinal Show.
Would you like to chime in to
this conversation leo how are you mate it's uh it's a pleasure look honestly i don't usually do
the hand up thing but i figured out of respect for what you guys have built here um and there's
a lot of there are a lot of very respectable folks on here so i figured now is the time to use the
hand up um i have to say some really interesting
got that yeah genuinely it's funny as shit because i don't know but it is um it's a really
interesting topic i think it's honestly brilliant that you guys are actually talking about this here
because i haven't been in the space anywhere near as long as you guys i don't have anywhere
near the reputation nor the experience but i did did come in the space through tokenized gold and silver bullion, ironically enough, writing articles like macroeconomic articles on tokenized gold and silver.
And I was very much a gold maxi.
And one of the guys who actually got me into this space, he's the guy behind Imaginary Tech.
I don't know if he's running a lot of the gizmo stuff.
And his name is Sonny.
And he really convinced me on getting into crypto beyond gold.
And his argument was that Bitcoin is capped, obviously, which is, you know, it's capped.
It's, you know, 21 mil.
And no one really knows how much gold there is in the earth.
But the thing I do find
fascinating and the thing I loved about gold was that there's this sort of saying that no matter
how much capital you spend on exhuming gold out of the ground, it still costs the same to be able
to pull it out of the ground. Anyone who's familiar with the gold mining industry and
oil and sustaining costs and everything else that goes along with it, you understand that there is a significant amount
of capital that is required to be able to pull an ounce of gold out of the ground.
And no matter how much you spend in terms of the amount of capital you allocate, it
still ends up costing the same.
So I think the big thing that the big conversation here, obviously gold has history and time
as the most respected store of value of the time.
But I think the big thing is the economy that's built atop of each asset.
And obviously, Bitcoin wins in the portability and divisibility stakes and everything else.
Obviously, there's the characteristics of money.
But I think the really interesting thing with Bitcoin is we have the ability now with...
And from what I understand, I work with a few really cool projects here in this space
and um there's there's a lot to be said about being able to build culture on top of an asset
and i don't think you can say that about gold um i'd be curious to hear everyone's thoughts on that
to be quite frank obviously there's a lot of really cool folks i i know snoop he's to be
honest the only speaker actually actually, no one here.
But I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts.
Obviously, Trevor, you've built a lot of culture on top of Bitcoin.
Leo as well, and Jan.
I'm curious to hear you guys' thoughts on that.
How do you feel?
Because Bitcoin deserves to be as high.
I think everyone here knows that Bitcoin has far more application in terms of building the future than gold does.
Gold is kind of stagnant.
People know that it doesn't move beyond what the dollar, like the dollar determines the price of gold.
It's not gold.
Gold doesn't move.
The dollar moves.
And Bitcoin itself has, you know, it has a life of its own.
May not have realized that yet, but I, I think that's coming. So yeah,
I'm going to leave it there for the moment, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Next thing is, you know, why is culture on Bitcoin more valuable than culture on gold?
Because as far as I'm checked, you know, it's jewelry and that's about it for culture on gold.
I mean, yeah, there's the jewelry thing, but to me, it's like gold has like a trad fi culture
that's stronger than Bitcoin's trad fi culture. I think like that's probably just the main catalyst
for gold is just like, you know, BTC and gold are these now assets that exist in our financial
system. And like the Wall Street bros bros you know i think like gold a lot
for you know as a tool and i think they're kind of learning to like btc as well so
you know they have to if you look at like the 25 for like the 25 clip on all of those
uh you know s&p 500 companies when the tariffs happened, I mean, that's people selling
those assets and then they have to put the money somewhere and it looks like they parked it in gold.
I mean, that's, it's like a tool that they're using. So I think BTC needs to have more of a
culture. Like I would, it's, it's almost like if you go into some hedge fund or private equity,
or just some company, um, working in finance in New York.
And it's like you could secretly record how many times the word gold and Bitcoin are said
in the office every day.
Gold's probably winning.
Like gold's probably winning the culture war there within like that group of people who
have significant influence over the economy.
And I think probably, yeah, that's my take.
Their culture is a little bit weird. It's maybe not the more... I don't know. I guess that would
be my take. I don't know if that's super helpful. But we have a culture that's more retail friendly,
in my opinion. But does that win in the long term like when you think about it right it's kind of like the tortoise and the hare gold is like the tortoise but the thing is here bitcoin
is also slow right like in the crypto space we see bitcoin as being like you know it's the slow
version but but in compared to gold it's incredibly quick so like you know when you say that culture
is it more culture is it more history i'm because i i genuinely believe that you know, when you say that culture, is it more culture or is it more history?
Because I genuinely believe that, you know, a lot of the ordinal space, the rune space, whatever people believe about that, it hasn't really come to fruition yet.
But if you take a lot of normies outside, like one of the big things, you know, I know you've had some conversations with, I was chatting with Andrew from Funky Bit a little bit earlier.
And, you know, I know, Leo, you've probably had some conversations with a few of these guys and he owns a pizza ninja. So I'm assuming Trevor, you may know of him, but I'm kind of curious as to, obviously he's a guy, this is one of the things that sort of validated
my support for this space, right? Is that you're a guy here who's sold his company to Goldman,
left Wall Street, run hedge funds on Wall Street. His tech now is used by NASDAQ. And you start to understand the importance of what does it mean when people
leave Wall Street and come to build Bitcoin meme launch pads on Bitcoin like Funky Bit. And then
they start to build other things as well. And then you realize, holy shit, why are people starting to
pay attention to Bitcoin assets? Because it's another niche beyond Bitcoin, right? Like
that's like the garden and then there's, you know, other things built on top of it. So
I really, I really think it's, it's obviously also like yarn. I'd be curious to get your
thoughts, man. We've never actually chatted, but have a lot of respect for the stuff you do as well
with experts. Like you're building the support for this space. Like you want to see people
building culture here. I think everyone here wants to see people building culture on Bitcoin. There's so much here. I don't,
bro, I play music. I'm not a Bitcoin. Like I've come into Bitcoin recently with some friends,
Memphis and a bunch of other guys that kind of pushed me into the space. But it really is like,
I have to say one thing I've also said before I hop off, but there are so many people here that
have just not given up. Like they don't give up even Bongo.
Like I had a conversation with the Billy guys the other day and like, yeah, Bongo just keeps
turning up.
He's just like, yeah, I'm just going to turn up.
I'm just going to show the Billy glasses and I'm just going to keep going.
It doesn't matter about the market.
It doesn't matter about what people think.
They just turn up.
Like I met Bongo in Paris at a conference at a party, a side event that I was putting
And, you know, we had And we had a few conversations.
And it's just fascinating to me that these,
honestly, like conviction, like Mirad talks about this,
a lot of guys talk about this,
whatever you think about them,
but not giving up, refusing to just die.
Like a survival in the end is what matters.
And I do think if this space can survive,
there's a level of substance here that just,
it just overshadows everything that exists in any other chain.
It really does.
And I think it would be...
I met Snoop as well in Paris, and I mentioned this on another space, but the passion this guy has in terms of whatever he's cooking, it's so pricey.
Even the bro guys, there are so many people that build great things.
I do think, though, the next phase for Bitcoin assets is we need to start capturing some of the market beyond Bitcoin.
Because a lot of people take this space like they think it's a joke.
And there are genuinely some of the brightest minds.
I think all the brightest minds build on Bitcoin.
I was just talking about this with the Arch guys like Matt and a bunch of these other guys.
There are some really cool people building on Bitcoin.
And it's not really going beyond Bitcoin at this point.
And I think that's the next phase for everyone here.
So I think it's sort of everyone's duty to sort of start pushing a little bit further.
Obviously, Leonidas is like, bro, you've gone so fucking hard on trying to push beyond Bitcoin.
I don't know how many people listen because they're ignorant as fuck.
But I think there's a lot of value there.
And the idea of being able to inscribe units of culture on Bitcoin
is the most priceless thing in history.
As long as the nodes keep operating,
it's very hard to justify why this is not the next metaphor.
Look at base.
They've just doubled down on Zora.
Pretty clear that, you know,
wait till people discover memes on Bitcoin is my opinion.
And when I say memes, ordinals as well, same thing.
Yeah, I really am curious.
Like there's a lot of, I'd see like bongos just come up,
but you guys go take it away.
I don't want to fucking, I'm not going to carry on talking heaps,
but I think there's a lot of potential in this space.
That's like, it's only a matter of time.
Patience is a really, really profound virtue
that a lot of people may lack.
But in this industry, no one lacks it,
which is, I think, very respectable.
It's why I'm here personally.
Yeah, man, look, I think these like gold versus BTC charts,
you kind of have to look at them
on like the century to century basis.
It's like, we can compare like month to month,
year to year, but it's like not
really the full story. Like you'll have to look at this 100 years from now. And anything in between
is like it's fun watching, you know, Bitcoin go after gold. And it may happen super fast. It may
not. But I think, yeah, gold's a, you know, multi millennium, like gold is a very, very, very old asset.
And I think it was the best store of value until BTC came out, right?
And yeah, I mean, look, there's 21 million Bitcoin.
Like it would just be objectively great if gold had a fixed supply that like was 80%
mined like BTC is, but that's not the case.
You know, gold, there's a
hundred times more gold than has been mined that still exists, um, out in, in the universe, probably
a million times, quite frankly, the universe universe is pretty big. Right. So, um, yeah,
it's, it's interesting. I think the whole speed, I always, when I think of gold, I do think there's
like this, you know, weakness in the 50 year time frame of like, people are going to go mine this stuff and increase the supply. And like, that's kind of bearish, quite frankly, that you can, you know, double, triple, quadruple the supply of gold through space mining operations.
This is like very similar.
There's so many parallels between, you know, gold mining and then crypto mining.
You know, the whole ETH mining stuff, right, because they mined on GPUs.
That actually fueled the AI.
Like that gave NVIDIA a ton of capital to just continue to perpetuate GPUs and ultimately helped like AI get to where it is like ai you know needed a very robust you know
gpu infrastructure uh for ai to really take off like gpus are just the obvious bottleneck
and yeah like crypto eth a bunch of these coins that mined on gpus like really helped to get that
there created you know many tens of billions of dollars of demand for GPUs that, quite frankly,
was kind of being held up by the gaming community, but otherwise was not being taken seriously.
And that all really started, like, NVIDIA really, really kicked off in 2017 with ETH mining.
So, yeah, it's interesting to see.
It'll be interesting to watch this.
We're going to cover it a little more on the show.
We'll see how gold versus btc
performs but uh you know props to all the people holding gold out there i think there is some
overlap between these communities despite peter schiff acting like they like hate each other
um i want to quickly go to profits and just hear you know profits do you have any thoughts on this
the whole gold versus bitcoin thing like we were checking in and like, I was shocked gold's at a $23 trillion market cap.
Can Bitcoin go like much higher than $2 trillion
if gold is that, you know, 23 trillion?
Like does 2 trillion really impress you anymore?
No, it doesn't.
What's up?
Good morning.
What's up?
What's up?
What's up?
Hope everybody's enjoying their morning and their-
GM, GM.
Their Monday so far um that's a great
question i dude remember when the last all-time highs in 2021 was two trillion and now we're just
hanging out here in two trillion so that's what i try to look at i always look at like the overall
uh top 100 you know verse btc and that's how I always analyze where we're at for the most part.
But as far as the gold conversation, I think this is Gen Z and millennials gold, Bitcoin.
I buy gold now in a sense of jewelry.
And yeah, obviously I enjoy jewelry.
Not a lot of people do, whatever.
But that's how I trick myself.
I'm like, well, I'm buying some store of value, right?
I'm buying gold to not only just wear, but have some store of value, right?
That's my little exposure to gold.
But I mean, I always go back to the fucking, what's his name?
Robert Kiyosaki's of the world. And they say, you know,
can't really lug around gold if all hits the fan or whatever it is when it comes to like
bartering or trading or whatever it is. But then it's like the conversation of what if the internet
goes out and it's just like, well, we're fucked completely at that point if the internet doesn't
work or if we can't use our devices. But yeah, I think it's always going to be a common conversation just because gold is
technically been around obviously longer.
You can't really, I don't know if I'm not an expert, but you can't really manipulate
it similar to Bitcoin.
I mean, I guess you can if you don't fucking know, but I'm saying the price of it itself.
But yeah, that's my take. So, I mean, I guess you can if you don't fucking know, but I'm saying the price of it itself.
But yeah, that's my take.
I mean, I'm always going to look at Bitcoin as my version of gold the same way I look at Bitcoin as my version of real estate, even though I want a ton of real estate. But let's be honest, we're never going to have those buying opportunities as our parents did or parents did 20 plus years ago.
So that's kind of how I look at it.
I try to go with the
times and uh just be on top of what's now right if we know we could accumulate more bitcoin it's
still out there they're still on exchanges then that's what we should be doing all right all right
i like the takes i like the takes um yeah yeah i, $23 trillion in the gold market.
I mean, where the fuck is that money coming from?
Yeah, I think it's just a fight to safety.
Like, you know, that that narrative is like, I think like if this isn't proof of the fight to safety thing, it's probably true for gold.
I mean, I don't know what to tell you.
It's like people sold all their stocks.
They got out of these like big tech,
you know, trillion dollar companies and just put the money in gold. I think that's literally all that's happened here. And, you know, Bitcoin, if Bitcoin can achieve that status at some point,
and like the Tradfibros can like, you know, really like believe that that's the tool Bitcoin is meant
for, even if we still think it's for currency and other stuff, man, gold is going to go through the roof and Bitcoin is going to go through the roof probably.
OK. OK, well, Tom was up here, but I think you just dropped down.
Wait, wait, before we continue, I wasn't sure if this was the official ordinal crash out space.
Is this the wrong space?
Yeah, probably.
Unfortunately, you came to the wrong crash out space.
There have been some crash out
spaces um but yeah i miss those spaces does anybody have tldr for me profits nah nah i got
if you know you know what happens in vegas type of vibe yon let's stay on track yeah man you weren't
my bad leonardius i'm sorry yon what yon you weren't there man you don't you weren't there
no um yeah look uh there was some drama over the weekend honestly like i kind of like keeping that Leonidas, I'm sorry. Jan, you weren't there, man. You weren't there. No.
Yeah, look, there was some drama over the weekend.
Honestly, I kind of like keeping that away from the show.
It's all kind of a mess. And it's like, yeah, it's like entertaining, but it's a huge mess.
And yeah, there's other shows you can listen to and get all the juicy details there.
But I'm not tweeting about that stuff.
I'm not.
No, as you should, bro.
I'm just teasing and being a pest i'm sorry but yeah no i i respect i respect how you go about things
whether you agree or people agree with you or not so all good yeah i mean look it's highly
entertaining like we could probably get like a thousand people in here pretty quickly just like
changing the title and just like bringing certain people up but uh yeah we're not gonna do that so if we're gonna have to listen to us talk about gold um yeah uh i'm trying to think like is anybody here uh doing alkanes anybody here
kind of messing around with alkanes these days like bongo you're you're a little bit of a degen
in the trenches like you you playing around with that stuff. Yeah, I learned about it a lot.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, man.
I've been learning about it in the last few days and it seems like the Chinese community is paying a lot of attention to it.
I haven't bought anything yet, but it's interesting.
I mean, it's kind of like a BRC20.
uh brc20 it's what brc20 2.0 is want to be kind of and they're now creating tokens and you know
It's what BRC20 2.0 is want to be, kind of.
it's doing decently i haven't bought any yet but looking at it studying it and and trying to jump
in diesel seems to be another interesting place but it's it's too technical for me. Bongo, you sound different, man. I see on your
timeline there's not a mistake anymore.
There's not a mistake anymore.
Bongo,
what's going on?
I'm intoxicated right now, Jan.
So...
Isn't it
morning for you, Bongo?
Nah, he's on the other side of the world now, bro.
He's on the other side of the world now.
Back to Alcane, yeah.
Explain the Diesel thing.
I'm like an Alcane, you know, like, noob.
I don't know shit.
You got to explain a little bit more.
I know it's like, one of the things about Alc you got to explain a little bit more i know it's like one of the
things about all k's that is a little bit like i feel like uh you know somebody coming into like
the you know ordinal show you know two years ago when we're saying all these like words that casey
made up that's how i feel when people talk about all canes like tell me this diesel thing like how
it works like explain it i don't think i can't to be completely honest it's like a little complicated right there's like
it's complicated yeah but it's being mined currently as you mine bitcoin and people are
bidding and putting money in um and i don't know if it's as a miner or as a pool but you get to
basically bid whenever there's a block and then you get it. And people are paying a decent amount of money for diesel.
And I think it's going to be like this currency that they are using to power their ecosystem that you get through Bids.
And that's what I can tell you right now.
But yeah, I can look up more information and see if I can give you more than that.
Yeah, we may have to get Tag on here and just like do a full-blown segment at some point.
Just because like I don't know much more than that either, man.
So yeah, stay tuned, guys.
So diesel, it's supposed to be their smart contract asset on Bitcoin.
I guess it's like the main currency.
It's like if BRC20s were a currency, it will be diesel.
I'm guessing because it's program programmable, but it's a meta protocol on BTC.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, look, I think the actual like Alkane stuff is it's just like at a super high level.
It's like Ord, but it's general purpose smart contract.
So it's the same idea.
It's a meta protocol.
So the compute is done off-chain, right?
You would be running an indexer, but in this case, it would be more like a computer kind of vibe where it's just general purpose. Like you write some line of code and a smart contract,
some function it executes and then it runs that logic.
And then whatever the output is that, you know,
puts on chain and that gets stamped into the Bitcoin blockchain shout out
stamps. And yeah, pretty much that's pretty much it.
I mean, I don't think it's like, like,
I basically understand at a high level
that and it like totally makes sense i think you know there's i think arch is doing a similar sort
of thing and there's going to be some of this and why she's doing more like an l2 attached to
bitcoin l1 kind of i gotta be honest the arch thing too it's it's hard for me, you know, how close something is to Bitcoin without really taking a deep dive into it.
And I just haven't done that yet.
But yeah, yeah, I think, I think Alkanes is like pretty straightforward.
It's like, it's a meta protocol indexer like ORD, but just has the smart contracts.
And then obviously has a token standard with that.
Okay. Okay. I'm going to let up since they up here, I think I invited since they, um, since we, we kind of, uh, you
know, we were hanging out on the OSD ordinal support desk show, which I'm sure people are
aware of, uh, over the weekend weekend and i was kind of spotting
some you know i was also doing a little bit uh you know i was i was like a recruiter i was looking
for some talent and since they kind of shined through um i believe it was you sensei sensei
i want to hear your voice really quick hey how's it going yeah i was uh i was just up there on uh
dragonborn zanza but then I was immediately kicked.
I didn't even get to say anything.
I don't know which one of you did that.
I know it was not you, Leonidas.
So I just want to say I forgive you, Trevor.
So, yeah, who's this other Zan guy, dude?
I got to say I'm a little bit butthurt.
It feels like my energy is being parasited off of.
Dude, how many Zans are there here?
I've never met another Zans. Bro, I was here in 2012.
Who are you?
Who are you?
Look, I'll be honest.
I came way later than 2012.
So I'm not going to even try and compete with you on that point.
So how did you hear?
I'll say I'm honored.
Yeah, me too.
Imitation is a high form of flattery.
I can't say it's imitation at this point, but I do respect, based on your bio,
I'm going to give you a follow right now, but that's kind of respectable.
MMA, fitness coach.
This is an alt account.
Dude.
I mean, everyone is, I guess.
What's the real account?
What's the real account?
Zanzarismo, Zanzarismo One.
My business account is DigitalPriceOrg, but that was taken down because the same day I made a video update that I explained the delays in development due to my personal issues of being lied to in the court of law.
So sorry that we've had delays in development, but they took that account down for telling the truth a few summers ago when I made a video update about the project.
But yeah, man, only the truth gets censored.
You know, when you connect some dots like that about how like, you know, in the times of depopulation, how dare someone have the ambition to cure aging?
We got to try to whack that guy.
And then, you know, if I tell the truth about the scenario of that situation and oh that's
you know big don't do that don't do that we're gonna take you down again what's the day who's
they bro what's the cure to anti-aging like is it just the cure to speak the truth man
all right we had our colden segment for the day. Colton, I'm going to bring you down. We appreciate you coming on, man.
All right.
Thank you, Leonidas.
Awesome.
All right.
So moving forward with the conversation here.
Can we ask Snoop Toshi about Alkanes?
He might know about it.
Or Barbara.
Barbara has been writing about it.
I'd love to say I know a lot about Alkanes.
I'm interested by them.
I was floored by the market caps on a lot of them.
But I think, yeah, I mean, as far as I know, it's a meta protocol by people involved with Oil Wallet connection to the airheads.
So if you have any airheads, you may be printing off of that.
So I don't know. It's something I definitely want to know more about.
know more about just Barbara's been writing up a bit from from what she's in
Barbara's been writing up. I'd love to hear from what she's seen.
oh hey I just know the beast that I know from from reading a couple of things on uh on the
Alking doc and um like Leonidas have already said it's a meta protocol and it's interesting
that the diesel that he's been asking about is actually meant to be like the fuel. I don't know if you
know about parity tech. So it was derived from the parity tech WASM. And it's actually a way
that you can meter the amount of work that a given transaction can do on the protocol. So that is the
concept for the diesel. So the Alkane's Meta Protocol is going to rely on diesel. And that's why people are mining diesel.
People are bidding on it because it's going to run the entire meta protocol.
People are currently minting several tokens on Alkenes.
There's the Methinks.
Methinks is the first community-driven Alkenes token.
alkane's token and it's it's been it's been insane he had uh an all-time high of about 25
And it's been insane.
sats per 10 000 tokens so if you if you minted that earlier on when it was like um at two sats
per vbyte you would definitely uh be sitting on a on a buckload of of btc and then there were
several authors that started to pop up but one thing that has surprised me so far with Alkinj is how the Chinese and maybe like the Asian community have picked interest in it.
And most of the alpha I do get on it are from some of my Asian community members and friends who just tell me, oh, hey, we're interested in this.
this. They're sharing tons of content around this. I see some of their influencers talking about it.
They're sharing tons of content around this. I see some of their influencers talking about it.
And also, when I knew that this has really gotten some sort of more attention was when
Monat from Mempool made a tweet about it. He had spotted some of these
transactions in the Mempool and he talked about it and said that he had the kind of design that could get
degens you know to want to start to dig in and and we saw that happen during the weekend
me things were off the roof uh newer tokens were maintained um i had the collection the
original's collection was was going over the roof so there are certain things that you can do right now.
It ranges from minting some of the tokens to trading them.
They have a marketplace where I can trade them, which is ID Club.
I have a tweet where I listed what you can do, where you can mint, where you can trade.
Life of FIFO also has activated RuneBlaster to support Alkings.
So you can also use RuneBlaster to support Alkings. So you can also use RuneBlaster to mint Alkings.
There's the mint.alkings.com platform where you can mint some Alkings tokens as well. People are
using oil wallets. A few others are not using oil wallets. One other thing to note is that
oil wallets is building like an AMM for Alkings. There's also Bound USD that is building some sort of like a stable coin for it.
I don't know how far they've gone,
but I'm also getting a sense that the Minet is coming.
So there's a lot on pack with Alkings.
I have a space with some of the builders
on Alkings tomorrow,
and I'm hoping to learn a lot more from that conversation.
But yeah, it's a lot.
It's been interesting. People haven't paid attention to it, but it's happening now and it feels like
the Western community is paying attention now that it feels like the Chinese community are
all over it. And one interesting thing that happened with one of the memes was with the
farting memes. I don't know, Bongo, if you mints at that.
It felt like the Western community
were mintsing that.
But it didn't look like
the Chinese community likes that
particular token. They're
stuck with their methane,
buthane. What's the
other one?
Pentane.
And then water. So yeah, there are a few others out there you can also buy that
you can also buy diesel on their platform it's it's it's it's a lot of minerals on that platform
and that i that is what i think makes it interesting it's different from like the
names that the names of tokens that we just you know usually hear um So yeah, I like the concept.
I do hope that it works properly
and that we all benefit from it.
So Barbara, do you know
what the market cap of diesel is,
for example,
like where it's traded,
this kind of stuff?
Oh yeah, it's traded on...
Okay, so I'm just going to paint this tweet here.
It's traded on ID Club.
So ID Club apparently is an early platform where people could inscribe,
an early Asian platform where people could inscribe.
And it's been here for a really long time.
But with the inception of Alkings, they started to pivot into Alkings.
And you can mint on their platform.
You can explore.
You can see the market caps of some of the things, some of the tokens.
For Mithing, it's actually 13.76 million market cap.
But in terms of Bitcoin, it's 155.84 Bitcoin.
For Diesel, at the moment, it's 28.49 million market cap,322.65 Bitcoin market cap.
So let me just, I think, let me just bring that so that people can just take a look and find the places where they can interact.
I'd love to jump in with a piece of advice that took me far too long to figure out.
If you're going to be using LIFO's tool, obviously you have a wizard, it'll save you some fees.
But all you need to do is take the last three numbers,
probably going to be four numbers soon enough,
of the Alkane token, and replace that
with the example link that you've probably haven't shared.
So you don't need to change the word in that link,
you just need to change the last three numbers
to be able to use that tool.
That'll make sense when you need to use that tool,
but it took me fucking eight to figure that out. It's actually the cheapest. Yeah, I'm glad you
pointed that out, because I did mint with Lifehose tool recently, and I was just looking for some of
the tokens, but yeah, I was eventually able to find it, but thank you so much for pointing that
out. It's the cheapest if you want to mint with it. But with the other ones, it's easier for you to say what you've minted.
When you go to the ID Club marketplace, you can just copy your address and paste it on Explorer.
And it's able to show you the tokens that you already have in that wallet.
I would also recommend that you use it completely.
If you're going to use an oil wallet, I recommend using an oil wallet.
Use a new one so that it's easier for you to handle the tokens.
And sometimes the RPC can be down.
So if you've minted and you're trying to check your balance and it's not showing,
you need to give it a little more time for it to reflect.
And a few other times when you're trying to buy or sell some of the tokens,
it's just not, it might not be showing you.
You might maybe receive a network error prompt
or it's not, you're unable to see your balance.
So you're unable to sell any of the tokens.
After a while, the RPC comes back
and you're able to perform those transactions.
So yeah, it's quite young,
but it's working at the moment
and there are tons of people who are building out on it.
Awesome. And Barbara, just to be clear, this token diesel is basically the equivalent to gas
on Ethereum, right? Like on Bitcoin, you know, basically you're just paying for the size of a
transaction that's being stored in the blockchain. a smart contract blockchain people can write an infinite loop for example into the smart contract and compute is you
know a valuable resource um so they have like i guess an algorithm similar to how gas is calculated
on an ethereum transaction i guess that powers their blockchain basically or sorry their blockchain basically, or sorry, their meta protocol? Is that basically what Diesel is?
Yeah, I think so.
But I'm trying to get a tweet from Judo Flex,
who is actually the CTO, the person who's building Alking,
so that it makes it easier for you to understand how Diesel works.
And if you can get any of the team members up here,
that would be absolutely amazing.
But yeah, I think that is what it's for. And if you can get any of the team members up here, that would be absolutely amazing.
But yeah, I think that is what it's for.
And you do know that holders of Airhead who have been earning XP will get that airdrop to them as well.
And that is part of the reason why you see Airhead being pumping and have been on the top five in the past few days. So an interesting play there.
But yeah, I'm looking for that.
I was going to say, why are you looking for that, Barbara?
Another thing worth pointing out, but I wasn't impressed with,
is on the oil wallets, you can put your various ordinal collections,
if you want to hold them in that wallet,
you get XP based on the value of the ordinals
and the time that you've held them in there. I don't know what the XP is for, but it did
look like quite an interesting farming opportunity for those who are interested.
Yeah, the XP is for rewards. I mean, they've said that right from time, but now we didn't
know that Alkynes was coming at that point. What we did know about was the Protoruns.
I'm sure most of you here have heard about proto-runes.
But now we have Alkings and now we have Diesel coming.
So definitely people who have been acquiring XP,
either by holding certain original collections or runes in their oil wallets,
have been earning XP.
But those who are holding Airhead are earning more XP than those.
So yeah, so I saw that tweet by Judo. He says that diesel is implemented as a standard alking
on Bitcoin, that it's meant to converge to function as a secondary incentive to miners
as they order blocks in their interest to mint it. So it's like a proof of chain of
meta protocol constructs which
supplements the economic security of the bitcoin protocol i will pin that up for people who are
big heads i'm not like i'm not much of a of a tech person to uh simplify that but i i'll just
pin it up here is that okay okay? Depends something.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
By Judo. Okay, okay, cool.
That's okay. Atari, what's up?
Hey, what's up, the United GM, everybody?
I just
hopped in and heard the discussion.
Airheads was actually my first
mint on Ordinal, so I'm
a little bit familiar with it.
You were a barber. you were hitting all the
nails in the head the one sorry i'm on the stair master um well one thing to know is if you do you
do build the xp and we will get out things it's definitely been confirmed i just tagged cole from
the airheads account and hopefully you can come up here um you do lose your xp if you sell though
so it's tied to holding the nft in wallet, or the ordinal in your wallet.
I just wanted to clarify that.
I apologize.
I came late to the space.
But yeah, super bullish.
Just got my first puppet, and I'm going to be collecting all the ordinals with you guys.
Hell yeah, man.
I love hearing that.
How many steps are you at?
Wait, how many steps?
Yeah.
Oh, oh, oh, 470 i i just started like 10 minutes okay yeah
you gotta stay healthy in this space if not i'll stay home all day
vatari you're you're talking to the you know you got the new bongo the nutrition expert of ordinals
up here and then we got the kind of fitness expert of ordinals yawn up here so you've joined the
correct ordinal show man uh this is the this
is the health this is the the i got my co-founder zach listening down there as well he's also a
little bit of a fitness nut so we've got we've got a very healthy space i would say like we've got a
conscious healthy uh ecosystem here in ordinal's um bongo be the odd person out you know because i feel very unhealthy
right now don't ruin it um barbara are you as curious as i am about what bongo had for breakfast
this morning oh yeah uh he he posts pictures i don't know if he has posted anyone today, you won't go.
Leo, I just pinned to the top a tweet by your friend
Rock Toshi
saying that naming a space,
the ordinal shows,
doesn't make any sense
because this is not an ecosystem.
It's like calling books
the paper ecosystem.
Any thoughts on it?
I mean, naming a coin, RuneCoin
is kind of...
I mean, look, we're not
starting this. I'm not letting Bongo come up
here and start a whole other thing.
On a good note,
look,
Bitcoin is at
$88,305,
which is basically the highest we've been in like 29 days, which is kind of nuts.
So in other news, we may be back, guys.
Like we might actually be back.
Like we've been saying we've been back for a little while potentially.
And I'm just looking at the like one year chart.
It looks like we bottomed and
might be coming back, which is kind of cool. Also could be a total fake situation too,
a little fake out. We all love the little fake outs, right? But no, it looks like Bitcoin's
coming back pretty strong today. And just, yeah, look at the one year chart on BTC.
I don't know. It looks
strong. Like it looks like a clear change of direction for the first time in about five months,
which is quite nice to see. So that's my little pivot from Bongo's attempt to ensnare us. And
we're going to call it the drama-free zone. Ordinal show is the, you know, it's the serious show of the Ordinal space. It's the
show where we discuss, you know, the technical and I don't know. Look, we're not going to do,
I guess it's like if there's a spectrum, OSD is on one end of the spectrum and then Ordinal Show
is on the other end of the spectrum. Maybe that's how I'll put that. I did enjoy hanging out with those guys, though.
They run a fun show.
I encourage people to go check them out.
They're quite entertaining.
Look, guys, what do we want to talk about?
That's kind of all the talking points and segments that we had here.
that we had here.
We'll have to talk to Taga
We'll have to talk to Taga and maybe see if we can get an interview.
and maybe see if we can get an interview.
I think people are interested in Alkanes,
so we can definitely try to bring that to y'all
in the next week or so here.
But Jan, what did you have for breakfast?
Oh my God, Arginals are so dead.
Lord Naitis is asking people what they had for breakfast.
Barbara, are you not super sure it became morning i wake up and
before my breakfast i ask myself i wonder what yawn and bongo had for breakfast man i am i am on such
a clean diet these days that you know it's uh it's good man i'm feeling fucking fantastic i don't
drink coffee anymore it's fucking midnight and i feel great i don't feel tired i don't drink coffee anymore. It's fucking midnight and I feel great. I don't feel tired.
I don't drink any alcohol.
I exercise and I just go clean as fuck, you know?
So I'm just experimenting with different things because, you know, I don't have like a perfect thing yet, you know?
Like I'm just trying things right now.
That's kind of like the stage of my life.
I'm just experimenting and trying to optimize.
So you're kind of in the phase of like,
I'm just going to mess around with a bunch of different fun stuff.
And if it sticks and I actually think it's working,
I might incorporate it kind of long-term.
Otherwise, just throw it away.
And it is kind of hard in the whole fitness ecosystem and stuff to like it's hard to gauge what's legit or not to be totally honest there's
a bunch of grifters in that space like i'm sure you're aware of that and i think it's like pretty
easy if you're not you know super familiar i don't know it's quite frankly easy for anybody
to get sucked into something that's like not super beneficial or like the science like you can kind
of find the science to support just about anything right but if you actually you know that's exactly
right you know i think you know there's a lot of people some people are pushing that hey being a
vegan is the best thing in the world some people say no you should only eat meat and be carnivore
that's the best thing in the world and then some people say that you should never eat fruits and some people say that you should eat it and no other carbs and grains and stuff so you know i
think that there's just so many of these things that you know you have to test everything yourself
and you have to find what really works for you personally because everybody is different
and you know obviously you should do some blood testing and stuff you know to see like what's happening inside you know just like how you feel but i think the way how you feel is actually the
best sell like do you actually have more energy do you feel do you feel better or do you fucking
sleep bad because you know you eat way too much of something that you shouldn't be eating so
you know like that's what i'm doing these days, because, man, like, I've been following a bunch of these guys. And, you know, they kind of, like,
agree on sleep. They agree on exercise. They agree on, like, yeah, just, like, eat, like,
simple stuff, meaning that, like, get rid of all the sauces and, you know, processed foods. But
then, like, they disagree on so many things things like, okay, you should, you should drink
milk. Oh no, you shouldn't. You should be vegan and you should have this thing and he shouldn't
have. And so I'm like, yeah, just try it all and, and see what works for you. And then that's,
that's what I'm doing, you know? And, uh, you know, I, I mean, I just feel great, man. Like,
I just, I just got rid of everything. Like I don't, I don't really eat at restaurants these days you know like very rarely uh we go out
i just try to like cook simple meals uh at home every day and uh maybe during the weekend i will
i will try to do something more complicated but but yeah man it's it's good i i feel great so far
so i cannot complain i love it man what's the consensus on the like there's like there's a lot of fringes of the like
biohacking health fitness community one of them is the people who do like the
they wear these like little neuron looking things on their head and it does like electricity into
their head you know what i'm talking about jan it's like a i've seen it bro but i've never i've
never done it i've never done it either. Okay.
I was wondering, because I was like, that's the kind of thing where, like, yeah, you probably do have to test it, but also, do you really want to test, you know, sending electromagnetic shit into your brain?
It's like...
No, I mean, that's, you know, I get it.
You can always go further, right?
Like, you can always go a little bit harder if you really want to look at
fucking Brian Johnson right like that guy's like fucking injecting some DNA into his body and he's
micro dosing via grave every day you know so like you know you can you can go really crazy if you
really want to if you have money and if you have doctors around you that can actually tell you like
hey this is good this is not good but you, just stick with the basics, you know, like for me,
like, you know, I changed my opinion completely.
Like I remember like back in the days when like I tried to eat healthy,
everybody would be like, all of my friends would be telling me like,
hey, this is bad.
Like, you know, how can you enjoy like eating so tasteless food
with no sauces and stuff?
And, you know, it's just complete bullshit.
I enjoy every single meal that I have.
And I fucking enjoy the real taste of the food that I'm eating instead of putting some shit on it.
And so, yeah, it's good, man.
Just keeping it real and basic.
I think that's the way.
All right.
All right.
Well,
that's going to wrap up our segment there,
guys.
It's Bitcoin 90 K now,
Leo.
Oh shit.
actually it didn't go to 90 K.
Oh shit.
We tried.
We tried,
Leo,
you know,
every time we talk about Bitcoin pumps, you know, we tried today, but it worked. Bongo even, Leo. We made a great effort there. I mean, sometimes that works.
We tried.
But it worked. Bongo even helped a little bit there.
So I do actually see we have somebody with Alkanes in their name came up on the show.
I want to talk with them in a moment here, so appreciate you coming up.
Juke, what's up, bro?
Hi, how are you?
Actually, I just wanted to ask something else,
but I think I'm the only one that every time come up
and choose to speak about a topic that's not related to the discussion.
Is it okay if I ask something about dog or it's not the right place for it?
Joop, I had a suspicion that you might want to come up and talk about dog.
Yeah, look, man, you're totally welcome to.
Like I try not to, you know, I try not to talk about dog too much on this space.
I feel like it's, you know, it's the kind of thing like people are expecting me to talk about dog all the time on this show.
And, you know, I want to balance it out. I want to balance it out. I think people hear a lot about dog all the time on this show. And, uh, you know, I want to, I want to balance it out.
I want to balance it out. I think people hear a lot about dog for me. And if something really
big happens with dog, we'll definitely cover it here. But in general, I don't want this to be the
dog show, um, which has happened at moments when dog is pumping. And I think, you know,
probably half of our listeners are like, hell yeah. And then half of them are like,
I don't want to listen to the show today. So of out of respect we try to balance it around but yeah man if you want to if you want to
ask a question or share something that's totally fine uh no it's okay i'm gonna postpone it to
another time but thank you so much you know we we have so dogs airdrop anniversary is this thursday
so that's dog's birthday is this thursday and we're gonna host a massive dog space and come come through and share it then man
Sure, I'm gonna be there. Have a good one. Hell yeah, hope you're doing well, man
Awesome
Awesome Alcane's Punk. First of all, am I correct to assume that you guys
That you guys did a first first punks on Alcades.
That's my first question.
Alcades, that's a lovely heart.
Are you able to talk with your voice too, though?
All right, Riff, I might have set that up and then it's a dud.
I apologize, guys.
Alcades Punk, we appreciate you coming up for moral support, though.
We'll have to get somebody who can actually speak on Alcades at some point here.
Barbara did a good job, though.
I don't mean to downplay Barbara at all.
Barbara, you did a great job.
Hey, bro, we need to get Alec up for sure. I just DM'd him, and he was like, I'm on calls right now.
I just DM'd him, and he was like, I'm on calls right now.
I sent him a bunch of messages.
Somebody came up from the, like, the, what is it?
Yeah, the Airhead account.
What's the Airhead account?
Yeah, somebody came up from the Airhead account.
Get him up here.
Yeah, we unfortunately don't let, you know, company or token account on stage.
And I let them know that and told them to come up under personal.
Why aren't they up here? I don't know. I told Alec. I was like, bro that and told them to come up under personal. Why aren't they up here?
I don't know.
I told Alec.
I was like, bro, you've got to get up here.
Everyone's talking about Alkanes.
They probably didn't see my message.
I said just come up under personal.
He's talking to someone random.
He needs to be on this call.
There's genuinely 245 people on here that genuinely are interested in Alkanes.
I don't know.
Anyway, I reckon next week you should try and get Alkanes up here because he's he's a cool guy he's a genuinely decent guy so
they're cooking hard so i'm sure everyone knows that but uh yeah good people okay i definitely
think we're gonna try to do that i'm curious atari how did you so like what got you into
alkanes that then got you into the space i I'm just kind of curious. Like what was that?
Because honestly, just totally honest here,
most people come into the space during like the big hype frothy moments.
And then it's been the kind of same group of people for like the past year.
Totally.
Honestly, right.
We don't have a ton of newcomers.
I'm kind of curious.
Yeah.
Just like what that was like
yeah so happy to just quickly share i'm at a thousand and forty steps update um yeah so
i originally so i've been following you i used to do the historical eath nfts and that was like my
first i guess exposure when i saw you doing the whole runestone thing that was my first exposure or ordinals then
I kind of dabbled obviously I'm in ETH I'm cross-chain now um and yeah I always looked at
him from afar I have my boy Kouya Mark I don't know if you guys know Kouya he's from doodles
and he had a bitcoin puppet nft and I saw him and he kept replying to the airheads account I'm like
dude what is this and he kind of explained to me alkanes and i was like i really wanted to get my feet wet um in ordinals and yeah i like to
come in when there's no height like i just bought a puppet i'm gonna buy a quantum i want to buy all
the the top projects um just have exposure you need some billy too and some dog you gotta get
into runes well i have i do have a couple runestones but yeah you're right
you're right i know um i'm learning and that's why i'm here talking with you guys too i'm like
really into it i want to go full full ordinals but yeah i didn't quite understand it uh by the
way the airheads account his name is cole and he doesn't have another account i'm dming him so
yeah rest in peace cole uh he's actually super intelligent
um but yeah i uh dude i just kind of have been falling into ordinals and now i'm just selling
everything i can just getting in while there's all this fun i don't really know what's going on
but i know that there's been some dissension and bullshit and yeah bro i'm dude i've always wanted
to come to ordinals and that's kind of my. The airheads kicked it off and I bought some witches and some other random shit.
And now I'm buying all the big stuff.
So you, I assume, probably did some counterparty back in like, you know, 2021.
Or am I incorrect assuming that?
I don't think so.
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
Interesting.
There's a lot of crossover. There's a group of us like Dogfather, you Interesting. Interesting. There's a lot of crossover.
There's a group of us like Dogfather, you know, Jacob.
There's a bunch of people that, you know, the Ordinals ecosystem is like made up of like 10 different other ecosystems, you know, kind of joining one.
And we formed the Ordinals show and Ordinals ecosystem and stuff.
And, yeah, I think like historical NFTs had a nice representation. And I think mostly
because of Counterparty. Well, one, Casey was part of the historical NFT community, historical,
you know, NFT archaeology community a little bit and hung out with us. So that was definitely,
obviously, probably actually the main reason. But also we just held, you know, Bitcoin NFTs
from Counterparty too, because they were old it's not necessarily uh because we like yeah like basically some of the oldest most iconic
nfts in my opinion are on bitcoin uh from back in you know 2015 2016 2017 and just by making that
mental leap of like i can buy nfts on another chain through that stuff a lot
of historical nft people were like they already overcame this thing of like i can buy nfts that
aren't on ethereum right which is an actual thing that you have to overcome i had to overcome that
right um to go to counterparty but i had already overcome that and then it's like really not that
far of a stretch to say hey let's do ordinals let's do ruins like that's not that different so um yeah man i appreciate you
sharing there um congrats yeah man thanks for having me up i uh and i have a brand new perspective
of coming to ordinals and i can just tell you this i'm so fucking bullish on bitcoin ordinals it's
not even funny um it just makes sense to me. Bitcoin is the goat. And don't
get me wrong. I've put in a lot of money into ETH NFTs and all these fucking chains. I was just on
ApeChain. And yeah, I'm about to bring most of my attention to here. So yeah, thanks for having me
up, bro. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty incredible. It's like, basically, all the collections,
the top ordinals collections are, you know, single digits, millions.
A couple of them are double digits, millions.
I mean, yeah, I don't know.
Like, I think you've, yeah.
People always say buy low, sell high, and it's like Atari's like the only person that's actually doing that.
Everybody else just comes at like the peak.
But I think that's fine.
It's natural.
It's natural.
And I, you know, congrats, Dari, on joining the space.
Welcome.
We very much welcome you and appreciate you.
I'm guessing not Airhead is probably a new account that just got spun up for this Alec.
So we're going to see if that's correct.
Otherwise, I'm letting probably
some weirdo on stage yeah he's no he just made a new account that's cole from the airhead yes let's
go what's up cole how you doing man yo what's good this is not airhead um this is not an official
account we have no ordinals we have no token but um i'm here to speak on behalf of cole or airhead
or whatever hell yeah dude well dude. Well, welcome up.
Appreciate you following the rule here.
We were pretty stringent about it.
And yeah, it doesn't mean that you can't talk about tokens.
It just means that like,
we don't want the whole like company accounts
hanging out on stage.
Not at all that that's what you were doing,
but we witnessed that happening a lot.
And, you know, we're not an advertisement
for people to just kind of hang out with our company accounts, right? We want people to come
up and we want to see the people behind these projects, right? And it's like, for example,
you know, we're getting to hear about you a little bit and not just the project, right? So
I'm curious, just very quick backstory, because I think we're just meeting here. Yeah, like,
how'd you get into crypto? How'd you get into the space, Ordinals and
Alkanes? And like, just give us a little backstory, man. And then I would love to ask you a few
questions about Alkanes. Yeah, for sure. So like, I'm an art school kid. Like I have no business
designing financial tools for the decentralized internet, but yet here we are. So I went to Rhode
Island School of Design. And there there i had like my roommate and i
we were lending out bitcoin on polonion x and we had an ant miner on ethereum running on the school
dorm electricity and it was really fun like swing trade that stuff but like it wasn't really the
thing um so what version ant minor oh i don't remember uh my my roommate was was more leading
that he had it in his girlfriend's place and we it was
literally a heater like in the winter we would turn the heat off and the ant miner would keep
the fucking room warm which is so funny but I was like I was kind of frustrated with crypto because
I saw all of like the the noise around it but I was like there's nothing really applied here so
my first job working applied in like crypto was a fellowship at ideal collab where I was working on
speculative decentralized credit systems back in 2017. So we were basically you know looking at authenticated data feeds town
crier all the new research this is back in like the Denta coin you know back when Stax was expert
sorry Stax was Blockstack um and like the OG stuff and even that like at ideal collab it was all just
fake decentralization theater like you put together these slide charts, slide decks, you say, oh, look, we're
going to add blockchain, we're going to add whatever the fuck.
And then you present it to a group of partners and nothing ever happens to it.
So I left that pretty disillusioned and then was working in music
technology for a little bit.
I had a really crazy fellowship with the, um, with, um, where I was working with,
uh, United States State Department
on nuclear non-properation strategies. And then I moved in to my first full-time job
in crypto. So my first full-time job, I was lead design at Dharma, which was an early
Ethereum wallet that had in-house on-ramps. So our value prop is basically, we had wrapped
C-dye as Dharma-dye,
so you could bring dollars from your bank account, earn yield. And then I built out all the trading
features for that. So, you know, buy anything on Uniswap from your bank account, et cetera.
That was then bought by OpenSea. So I came with OpenSea to the acquisition,
and I was working in special projects at OpenSea. So across creative direction, brand products, regrettably, I did all the
Solana go to market rollout for them.
And then I saw the writing on the wall, like they were at $13.6 billion peak
valuation, we were bought out at that Val and I was like, this is not going to
happen, like entities are dead.
Like I saw what was happening with blur and I was like, I need to get out of here.
And when I came board on OpenSea, I started
meeting a couple other people from the space because I was in that transition period from
the acquisition. I was like, I got to meet more people. I got to understand like what's going on.
And at an FWB event, I actually met Alec. And so Alec told me about what they were doing at BitDAO
and Windranger, which is the lead product development lab of BitDAO. BitDAO is what
Mantle L2 came out of. So all of that treasury became
Mantle L2. And then I was working with BitDAO. So I was first in EIR there. And then I was creative
director at Windranger, which basically meant I had ecosystem God mode perspective on how we are
allocating that $3 billion, all the grants, how you coordinate all the brand architecture and
create the right illusion of decentralization. But as you learn more about DAOs, you start to realize they're
all fake. It's really a group chat of people who have the voting weights and they're voting in
governance. And so you're like, okay, is this really real? Then the Luna crisis happens and
BitDAO decided to focus on more internal DAO tooling. And based on what I had learned, I was
like, well, I'll still stay on, but I'm
gonna start dipping my feet into more other products because I was really
juiced on like consumer things, having come from Dharma and OpenSea.
So I opened up my design agency called With Pleasure, which was referral only.
I had like a bunch of clients through there.
Of course, Windranger was one of them.
I worked with FTX Ventures.
I did Martian Wallet, Tortuga, like a bunch of projects with them among like a ton of other agency clients.
And then I was sort of like, honestly, like the agency was crushing it, but I was feeling like I'm not really iterating on anything.
Like all I get is the ability to charge higher fees and work faster.
ability to charge higher fees and work faster but like i don't really believe in any of these
But like I don't really believe in any of these companies.
companies and so alec who had like brought me into bitdao and really enabled me to to like work and
see this perspective and like pushed on it was like yo um we had stayed in contact the entire time
and we had tossed around a bunch of different ideas of things in crypto we wanted to do and
i was like okay i've got one last crypto project in me like let's go big so
we have similar birthdays like his birthday his birthday is on February 15th.
I'm on February 2nd.
So he came to New York and we were at my studio, which is called Wet Lab.
And when I first saw this, I was like, this is total garbage.
Like, I had already had disdain for NFTs in the Ethereum world.
I did work on a bunch of cool projects there, like Shlom's Lambo.
We blew up the Lamborghini.
I did all the auction auction design and um greater direction
for that too which means like there are cool art things you could do but you know at that time i
was like it was like what early 2022 like ordinals was barely just popping off but as i started to
understand the rigor of the decentralization how the data is actually on chain i realized like this
is truly a better nft um And that sort of kicked off.
Okay, we're going to go raise for oil wallets.
We're going to do all these things.
I'm sort of rambling for a while, but I hope that's a good starter background before we
do the Alkane stuff.
You did great, man.
You did really good.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you made it here.
Congratulations.
We're glad you didn't give up and
we're glad you like ordinals and stuff. Can you maybe share just like maybe one or two things
that you're most excited about, about Alkanes and like what it brings to the Bitcoin ecosystem?
Yeah. So for me, the most exciting thing about Alkanes is how it actually is built on layer one.
And we use the best of the best UTXO method and the security of assets that we've already seen sort of in this fungible space.
So we're not trying to recreate a separate validator network and enrich people who run compute and set up nodes.
We're purely using L1 as a way to expand the capabilities.
And so what's really special about Alkanes is, as far as I understand the space, which
is probably pretty well, it is the only solution that actually is geared towards increasing
the competition on layer one, and that results in fees for miners.
And so the really important thing about why, like, why would we want to increase fees?
Why would we want to increase demand on Bitcoin?
It's because the demand for transaction and block
space is what upholds the security of Bitcoin itself. And in 2140, when the Bitcoin block
reward goes out, there must be some other mechanism to uphold the value of the transactions
that are happening. And that means that you need to have motivated market actors that are
interacting in DeFi that will actually want to pay more for a
high value transaction because it's time sensitive. And so I think like that's the high level on like
the most important thing about Alkanes is it's built on layer one. It enables full programmability
on Bitcoin layer one, and that is intentionally designed to create a competitive environment on
Bitcoin L1. And the best assets that will want to be scaled to these
layer twos will be ones that can actually accrue value from the protocol layer on L1. And very
likely, that's where the juice is. Right. And just to be clear, Alkanes is using the
Meta protocol model. So is there like an indexer? I don't know what you guys call it, but basically
an indexer that I can run with my Bitcoin node and basically just process and do the same compute
basically? Yeah. So I can describe that. So we do have an indexer. The really special thing about
Alkanes is it's built on a WASM indexer. So WASM is a WebAssembly. I'm not going to go too deep
into WebAssembly stuff because it's an ordinal show, but at the end of the day, it is identified by our CTO as the best possible VM
to do this type of computationally expensive compute.
And so the indexer, not only did we build this bespoke indexer,
which is configured in a WASM runtime.
We also have a hosted solution via Sandshue RPC.
So we built the indexer.
We built the indexer toolkit that allows you to create meta protocols such as Alkanes. And then we also offer the hosted version via Sandshue RPC so that anybody can quickly get access to the data and all the consumables.
So Alkanes and the indexer itself are 100% open source.
So if you wanna run your own node
and you wanna run the Indexer, at least you can
because it's composed in Wasm and it's performant,
unlike Borg.
But now you can just use the hosted version
and it's super accessible.
Just like most people in Ethereum,
they build on Infura, they build on Alchemy.
We're not expecting people to like run their own node
and run their own Indexer
and have all these hardware requirements. What builders and SAP developers need is really
good access to the best, most performant data. Right, right. So basically, there is an open
source GitHub repo, and you can run it. It's kind of like Bitcoin or something or a lot of these
things where you can run it if you want to.
But also there are, you know, I guess you guys probably built APIs that launch with it that people can also use to work with.
Yes. So on top of that, we have the oil SDK, which is basically all of the functions that we use to
compose PSPTs and have a smooth experience in the wallet. So that means everything from pulling balances,
percent change, constructing,
like making sure that the UTXOs aren't spent,
putting these different checks on it.
And that oil SDK is also 100% open source.
So you can find the oil SDK on alkanes.build
and it really lowers the barrier of entry
for developers who are building on top of it
because now out of the box, we've already provided you most of the really hard shit where you can just use it.
Okay, very cool, very cool.
And a lot of people were talking about diesel earlier.
Can you just explain, like, the kind of, I don't, not necessarily the value proposition,
just, like, what's the utility of that token in the ecosystem and why is it that people care about it?
Yeah, for sure. That's a really great question.
So diesel is, it's kind of an interesting thing to hold in your brain.
There's some cognitive dissonance.
I'm going to, it is not intended as a utility token, so to speak, but it is the first example of a smart contract on Bitcoin
L1 with the mainnet indexer. So Diesel has been live since the mainnet indexer went up
at block 88,000, sorry, 880,000. And it's an extremely simple asset. So basically what
we're trying to figure out is how do we make an example implementation of Alkanes on chain, on main net that shows what you can do with a smart contract.
And since this is Bitcoin, we looked at, OK, what's the most interesting thing about Bitcoin is the supply and the reward and the Coinbase dynamics.
And so we were like, let's create a sub fractal of Bitcoin where basically what diesel is, is an open auction for to get the diesel.
And there is one trans one, the first transaction of every block opens up an auction to basically
win the diesel. And what's, what's cool about that is people will bid to get the diesel, but just
like any sort of lottery or auction, most people, they lose and only one person will win. And so
what this does is it creates a an incentive a
very natural incentive where if you understand bitcoin and the block reward and how it halves
and there's a limited amount that is emitted then diesel is really interesting to you because it's
a bitcoiner native game it's basically like bitcoin squared it's like leverage of bitcoin like
it's it is the same exact game as Bitcoin, but on Bitcoin with a
smart contract on Bitcoin. And the reason we created that, not only because it's cool as fuck,
is because we want to create a really natural alignment between miners and Alkane's assets.
And something really important with these meta protocols is because we're built on layer one,
it's really important that L1 is mining those transactions, that miners have a reason to want to include those transactions and they don't get pruned out.
So the way that we uphold that is if there is a miner that is really interested in getting alkanes or specifically the diesel, they are going to use products like Rebar Labs, which is MEV on Bitcoin, where they can sequence blocks.
And then they can, whether they want to use private MEV or private pool MEV or not, now you can submit all of these to a miner and you actually,
you'll get diesel for having processed those transactions if you're first. And so
it creates a long timescale where you can start to see where in 2140, when there are no block
rewards for Bitcoin, there will still be alkanes.
Right, right, right.
So, okay.
Maybe I misunderstood diesel slightly.
Is diesel needed to use alkanes?
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
There is no protocol token on alkanes.
And any meta protocol that has a protocol or an essential token that you have to buy to use as gas or anything is is not a real meta protocol okay because basically the idea is
it's it's kind of like or an ordinals and stuff it's like you got you want to do an ordinals
inscription you pay btc like btc is how you put that on chain gotcha okay and then, yeah, so basically this token is like, if I had to describe it like a meme coin game type of thing, I mean, would that piss off people or are people embracing that?
Just give me some sort of categorization here.
So, yeah, the highest levels, like simple, this is what Diesel is.
Diesel is the first smart contract on Bitcoin L1
period. That's cool. And then second is it's really an industrial game for miners. Consumers,
I do not recommend you try to go and mince diesel. You will lose. You will be RBF. There are far more
sophisticated players that are in the mempool. And that's exactly what we want to happen with diesel.
Interesting. So maybe we want to happen with diesel. Interesting.
So maybe we call this like a game?
Yeah, it's like a high stakes competitive,
what would you say?
Yeah, it's like a high stakes competitive game
for whales, basically.
Whales and minors and super technical people.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Barbara, do you have a question or thoughts yes my original understanding of diesel from what i read
is entirely slightly different from what i'm hearing so that's i just want like a little
bit of clarification so like in terms of when a diesel was explaining as um some sort of parity tech fuel description?
What does that mean?
How's that different from diesel they talk about?
Are they entirely two different things?
Yes.
I'll explain something else here.
Oh, I see.
There are many different types of hydrocarbons,
and we pull all of them.
So alkanes is a hydrocarbon, oil is a hydrocarbon, and then diesel is- I got to stop.
I got to stop you.
I got to stop you.
What the hell is a hydrocarbon?
Are these tokens?
What are you saying?
Give us a little backstory.
The branding metaphor that we're playing with, which is why Barbara has some confusion around the concept of fuel and diesel as a fuel. Fuel as itself is a concept which is for compute. So Parity Tech,
they added WASMI, W-A-S-M-I, which adds a fueling layer to allocate compute across the WASM
contract. So that's super essential for leveraging
WASM as a VM, because if you don't have a way to meter the fuel, you're cached, you're done.
Now, diesel in the real world is a type of fuel, but it has nothing to do with the concept of fuel
in terms of WASME. It is what we just discussed earlier. I hope that
clarifies, Barbara. Yeah, that makes sense. Because I said, the diesel I explained was
entirely different from what you said. So, and that was what I had read earlier from your doc.
So thank you so much for clarifying that. Can you explain the metering of stuff a little bit?
What do you mean by that?
Sure. So, you know, we have
an indexer and there
are going to be multiple different
Wasm contracts which are deployed.
Think of those as like your money Legos. So
there's an AMM contract, there's a rewards contract,
there's a lending contract, there's a staking contract,
there's all these different things. And
what you need in a smart contract meta protocol is a way for the compute, which is all the processing to make sure that those cool, like there's not going to be some contract that like takes up all the compute and has like some recursive thing that fucks up the whole network.
It properly meters it and assigns a value of Bitcoin required to deploy it or to use it.
Okay, so that totally makes sense.
I was wondering the infinite loop problem.
So fuel is a token? No, fuel is totally makes sense. I was wondering the infinite loop problem. So fuel is a token?
No, fuel is just a concept that is integrated into WASME, which is essential for the indexer it needs to see if hey okay like leonidas just deployed a smart contract
basically whatever we want to call it basically a smart contract on a bitcoin on alkanes and there's an infinite recursive situation in there what do you do about that
it wouldn't it wouldn't it wouldn't go through because it would be the the wasmi the fuel layer
would understand the computation required and it would probably it would revert and you'd get a refund.
Right.
So inside of this indexer that I'm running, there is some kind of pre-analysis on each function of the contract saying this is too large.
Is there some specific cap?
Is it algorithmic?
Like what level of compute is or isn't allowed?
These are probably better CTO questions um to be honest but um there there is a limit I mean it's it's basically described
within the like so you know Bitcoin has a scripting limit and then wasm the g-zipped wasm that we put
in the witness payload also has a limit um but I I feel like I could you know my CTO could
definitely better better answer the
questions about wasmi and and the fuel compute i'm surprised we're getting into this on the
ordinal show it's pretty deep yeah there's uh hey guys um what's up dude hopping in we were talking
about we were saying we needed to get you up here sometime this week so now is now is even better. We've got a bunch of questions for you.
Talking about fuel and metering.
So like some high level, and there also is,
there's like some GitHub repos and gist that talk about fuel and why we made some of these design decisions.
I think one thing that is relevant that's happening right now in general, get the conversation
with Vitality and ETH about the idea to move away from the EVM and use RISC-V as their
I have in one of my recent tweets, somebody's talking about one of the problems with RISC-VM
is you would still need rip tag it. You're kind of coming in and out on us, man.
I think your connections been a little tough. Maybe,
maybe if you're on, if you can hear me right now, hop on wifi,
if you're on cellular or if you're on wifi hop on cellular,
that'll usually fix it. If that doesn't fix it, we can, you know, work something else out.
But, yeah.
I could tell you had a great answer.
It's just we can't hear.
All right.
Rip, yeah, he's fully rugged now.
I'm sure he'll be back. Rip. is like not uncommon this happens like all the time so it's pretty i know your spaces is garbage
yeah i was having a little issue earlier as well and jan has an issue at least once a show
um all right taga we're getting getting target back up here
hi-fi now can you hear me yeah man yeah and we weren't able to hear you a little bit before but you would just that we'd hear nothing for five seconds and then you'd start talking again so
let's give it a shot again yeah so um some of the stuff that's been happening in ethereum
if you've seen vitalik talk about moving away from the EVM to RISC-V,
there's been some commentary.
I have a tweet that I commented on.
But for every VM, it's super critical that you have metering.
And so even with RISC-V, you still need another VM to do compute metering.
So ParityTik is amazing in the sense that they have built WASME
that kind of enables the fuel and kind of metering itself.
And like looking at also some of the other like meta protocol implementations,
if you don't have sufficient metering, you're going to get DDoSed.
And so somebody could go and just essentially break the indexer kind of on purpose.
And so this enables that compute is effectively distributed per block.
And so it's kind of super critical for an effective smart contract layer in VM.
Right. And is there a is there like a specific
hard cap on cert like there's some unit of compute in alkanes and then like a function
has to be under some cap or is this algorithmic based on how much activity is happening like how
do we determine the cap on the metering yeah so there's there's a there's a certain amount of fuel that can be used every block and during a block if it starts to a compute starts to get too high then
for certain addresses then it gets capped to kind of the minimum um there's also a in our docs and
in the repos there's like a more like more detailed definition about how some of the algorithm and some of the math works.
So happy to kind of send those for people that are more interested in diving deeper.
Yeah, look, that totally makes sense.
I think there was basically slight confusion around the role of diesel, which is how we got on this topic.
But I think more interestingly, I is how we got on this topic. But I think like more interestingly,
I would just like to hear from you.
Let's take a step back, you know, why build this?
Why tackle this problem?
And we can, you know, dive into the specifics
of what you guys actually built here.
But like, first I wanna know, you know, why?
Like, why build this, right?
We, you know, we have ordinals, we have ruins, you know, what problems do you want to address
here?
I'm getting rugged.
Taga, we can't hear you, man.
I can pick up while he's, while he's.
Okay.
Okay.
Am I just repeating the question uh yeah so it was kind of specific to taga to be honest i was asking like why he wanted to build
uh you know why you guys wanted to build alkanes and like what specific problems you wanted to
address right it's like you can do you know if you want NFTs, you, you know, you have ordinals and stuff. And it's like, I wanted to just hear from him, you know, they're,
they're sort of iterating towards this ultimate product, which is Alkanes. Like why,
why build Alkanes? Why not just use what exists today? And I mean, I can guess the answers,
but I want to kind of hear from him. Well, I'm also the co-founder and chief product officer.
Okay, very cool.
Yeah, man.
Would love to hear your thoughts.
So yeah, Alkanes is fully programmable.
So when we look at ordinals and runes, they only have a mint and transfer function, which
means that they are fundamentally limited by that.
And basically, when you only have mint and transfer, it's a pure scarcity play.
So the only way that you'll be able to get out is if somebody else is willing to pay
more for that scarce asset.
And so while Ordinals enables that and it has it for art, it's incredible, Runes basically
took that and said, let's take out the art piece and create a really awesome fungible
standard instead of on the SAT, we'll do it on the utxo based method and runes and the utxo
method is proven to be like really awesome for this type of thing but runes still are only
limited to mint and transfer and that's basically by casey's design so casey does not like mev
and that and because it only has mint and transfer you start to see a very different
crop of projects pop up where if you only have mint and transfer now you have to see a very different crop of projects pop up where if
you only have mint and transfer, now you have to have a multi-sig or a notary wallet or
something like that to create a liquidity pool.
And you can't actually truly create a trustless AMM.
And so Alkanes is sort of the response to some of these things.
We see all the awesome interest in ordinals, which is what got us off our asses and building the wallet and building the indexer we support runes and the trading
activity there but it's really about craving more programmability and more permissionlessness so
alkanes not only enables that more programmability but it's a fully open and permissionless system
so it's not like there's one team centralized party that is sort of controlling the code base
where you have to soft fork it or fork it to change something.
Everybody can build on alkanes and the contracts can compose together.
And so by addressing those three tenants, we create like a new world where anyone can build on top of this.
Anyone can create their new sub views, sub protocols, functions, tokens, smart contracts.
And nobody has to be in charge of what the protocol can do.
It is a completely open
landscape for everything so there's a turing complete programming language on top of this
basically correct yes it is turing complete and that is that is what yeah yeah it's like once you
achieve turing completeness you're no longer having to like upgrade the protocol to like do
things you more make upgrades to the protocol
for efficiency gains for this sort of stuff to fix a bug but the actual functionality you're
turning complete you know it's like you can do whatever the hell you want to right um yes and
anyone anyone can which is which is really really different so something that's very unique about
alkanes is because it's built on the Proto Runes standard,
any Proto Runes sub-protocol becomes fully compatible with it.
So what does that mean?
What that means is all of the Alkanes contracts can compose together,
and then you can execute them in a single transaction.
So let's think about like, you know, you guys have all minted ordinals and played with runes and magic Eden. There's a bunch of different signing screens and you don't quite understand the
inputs and outputs, but you do have to like individually click through a lot of them, even
if the wallet has multi-sign enabled because of the way that the Dapp constructs PSPTs.
And what's really special about Alkanes is let's say I'm doing a complex thing. Like I want to swap
directly from native Bitcoin to an alkane what the transaction
will be able to do is let's call the um the wrap contract let's compose that with the amm contract
let's compose that with the liquidity pool rewards contract and then in a single click
one transaction you're doing all of that work and it goes through so it's also really good ux and
cheaper for the user because they're because we're able to compose these things
using a recursive parent signer
through whatever the DAP wants to do
to submit the transactions.
It can call multiple UTXOs,
which store the WASM contracts
and assemble them together into one output.
So as far as Proto Ruins goes,
just you gotta even step back a little bit more for me here just
i'm pretty sure i'm assuming things but i don't want to incorrectly assume proto runes is the
fungible token standard of alkanes is basically correct um i i wouldn't say that i would say
alkanes is its own fungible token standard what proto runes proto runes is a standard um there's a
i couldn't go exactly into why there's
a distinction here alkanes is the meta protocol and this is the way that Ray our CTO describes
it alkanes is the meta protocol and proto runes is the standard so what proto runes does is it
basically proves that you can have an asset because all of alkanes is built off of runes
so the first thing we had to do is show that wait hang on hang on you just see i thought i was getting everything and then now i don't understand it all so you're
gonna have to connect the dots for me is the protocol that casey created that runs in ordinals
indexers right yes um how you're saying alkanes is built on top of runes so so yes the entire
runes indexer is built,
like Alcades took everything that was great
about the runes indexer,
and then we added this additional functionality.
So everything that, like it uses a proto stone message,
which is very similar to a rune stone message.
And that enables us to have this sort of continuity
between if you understand how runes work
and you understand how to integrate and build on runes,
then once you understand the concepts about Alcades, you can see the sort of straight line to building on top of that.
So what proto runes, proto runes was the first murmur of programmable runes that you may
have seen come out, where it was like, what is proto runes? What it is, is it's a way to
basically show that these indexers can talk to each other. So Proto Runes creates this idea of a proto message and a proto burn, which
basically show that you can have an asset on one indexer, such as Runes, which
works, and now it can be picked up by another indexer, which is Alkanes.
And now it works.
So thinking about why is this really important?
Well, you need to get Bitcoin into the meta protocol, right?
But if the Bitcoin, native Bitcoin is not going to be read by the meta protocol, it
has to be wrapped Bitcoin.
So by using ProtoRunes, we can show that you have Bitcoin.
And now because it is wrapped, it is picked up now on the Alkanes indexer.
And now you can use it in the full decentralized economy on Alkanes indexer and now you can use it in the in the full decentralized economy on alkanes okay so
when i think of runes i think of like you know billy and pups and dog and magic internet money
and these different tokens right yep do those runes like it was there some fork at some block hike between casey's runes and this runes like how
like i can ask casey's indexer hey you know how many dog does this address hold and it's a certain
balance if i ask your guys indexer will it match or will it not match basically i'm asking if there
was a fork there was not a fork. Runes do not exist on
alkanes. It is its own separate meta protocol. However, based on what I described with the
proto message and proto burn function, there are ways that you could make runes interoperable with
alkanes. So you could have a layer zero solution like Arch, where you could lock up your runes
and that mince alkanes on the outset. You could have a proto burn where you one way burn your rune
and then you receive an alkane, which is something that we're working on.
But they don't natively talk,
but it borrows all the indexer logic and the rune step message.
Gosh, that totally makes sense.
Okay, so basically it's like...
You would be able to trade them via PSPTs too.
So like, let's say there was a dog to the moon alkane
and there was a dog to the moon rune.
Someone could create a PSPT marketplace
where any individual permissionlessly could sign a PSPT
that burns their, or sorry, that makes that trade.
Gotcha. So it is a separate protocol. Like you called it runes because it's the same runes code upgraded basically, but it doesn't have any of the existing
runes on it. But you would basically use a multi-sig and then bring runes into it and
mint the token and it's a representation of the rune yeah it uses a valid runestone message so that
that would work yes interesting interesting and then basically okay it is i feel like we uh we
need to have like a council before we name things in this space because it's always confusing um but so these runes these proto runes it's like there's new
tokens being issued on them that are not compatible with normal runes correct but they do work with
the proto runes and proto runes is basically very similar to runes but just like a different version
of runes i think the best way to think about proto runes is just like ignore it unless you're a dev working from a CLI. There is the alkanes indexer, which is for alkanes. Then there is
the runes indexer, which is for runes. And if you get access to Sandshrew, you get all of them.
But I think the proto runes standard is really for people who are thinking about interoperability
and people who are trying to understand how it actually communicates at the indexer to indexer level.
Yeah, but like if I issue a token on Ethereum, right, they have smart contracts and one of
those smart contracts is like ERC721 or like there's ERC20 and you issue your tokens with
these standards, right?
And everybody just uses that to issue that standard to issue their tokens.
Right.
Is that like, what is that?
Is that standard on your, like, if I'm going to issue a token on Alkanes, is that going
to live on some standard?
And if so, is that proto runes or is that something different?
So they would live on Alkanes meta protocol protocol and Alkane's meta protocol de facto is proto-runes compatible.
So, you know, if you're in the code base, it's kind of.
So maybe let me ask you differently. Diesel is created as a proto-run?
Diesel is an alkane.
Oh, OK. OK, I think I actually am getting this now. I think I am getting this now.
So Alkane actually is a standard for tokens. Yes, it is. It's different than proto-runes. Okay. I think I actually am getting this now. I think I am getting this now. So Alkanes actually is a standard for tokens.
Yes, it is.
It's different than Proto Runes.
Okay.
So it is the name of the Meta protocol and it is the token standard.
And probably most of these tokens being created are on the Alkanes standard, not the Proto Runes standard, right?
Internally, we don't.
Yeah, it's hard to use the word standard because, you know, proto runes is like our CTO.
He very clearly described it as a standard.
But what that is, is a foundation for how you can build on top of runes and programmability
of runes.
It's a framework.
But Alkane's, the meta protocol is provides the token standards.
So like to make this simpler, like what you were saying earlier on Ethereum,
I have ERC 20, I have ER721, I have whatever.
We have the same thing on Alkanes, like there's,
but there are different WASM contracts that you can deploy.
So like I can deploy a Freeman contract if I want to.
I can deploy this contract that buys back and burns its own token.
I can deploy a rebasing token.
Like you can design any contract that you want, but that's how it works.
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And just to be clear, that's how Ethereum was in the early days
as well, right? But ultimately, Ethereum, for interoperability purposes, kind of coalesced
around one standard. Because yes, I can go to Ethereum and just deploy some crazy token that I want
with like special functions and stuff.
The issue is it's not going to natively work with Uniswap.
It's not going to natively work with MetaMask because it didn't follow a unified standard
that everybody sort of agreed upon.
So maybe you guys are at a moment where you're figuring out what that standard will be and
then people will coalesce around it maybe is what it sounds like.
I mean, yeah, there are hundreds of you that have already been deployed that are using
the freemint wasm which you could think of as like a very simple erc20 that's defining a supply
a ticker a mint amount that's like very easy to for a user to alias across like how does this work
on alkanes versus runes okay okay very cool very cool i did get to speak with taga very briefly in the dms and you
know basically we want to have him up here with like you know not having technical issues so you
guys can actually hear what he says so um he's going to get all his stuff sorted out we're going
to have him back on wednesday uh for the ordinal show guys so just fyi on that and uh yeah that's uh that's how we're
gonna deal with that but uh yeah should i should i call you cole should i call you cole or not airhead
whatever you want man all right not i kind of like the not airhead name not airhead um would
love to have you back then as well man too i think um maybe we'll have a more formal trevor and yon
and i could do our research and we can have a little bit more formal interview with you guys then. But we appreciate
you coming up this morning and kind of just answering some of these questions, clearing up
some confusions. I personally learned a lot. It was very, very helpful. So I appreciate that.
Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much. I was just seeing, I was getting tagged and I'm like,
yeah, I'll pop in there. I'm between meetings. No problem.
Well, we appreciate it. We appreciate it. And I think that's probably I'm like, yeah, I'll pop in there. I'm between meetings. No problem. Well, we appreciate it.
We appreciate it.
And I think that's probably the show here, guys.
We've been going for two hours strong.
And we're going to continue this conversation on Wednesday.
Trevor, Jan, you guys got any final thoughts here before we hop off?
Have a great week, everybody.
We'll see you on Wednesday.
Awesome, guys. Y'all have a good one. Love you, guys. Peace. Have a good week everybody we'll see you on wednesday awesome guys y'all have a good one peace have a good week guys
