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The Ordinal Show
Recorded: June 5, 2023 Duration: 3:06:24Space Recording
Full Transcription
I want to leave it, everybody wants to move.
For freedom and for adventure,
nothing ever lasts forever,
and everybody wants to move.
Good morning, Bitcoiners.
That's right, you're here at the Ordinal Show.
I'm Trevor Dopp, BGCC of Ninja Alerts
and managing partner of the Bitcoin Frontier Fund.
And I'm here with my co-host, Jan Smeggel,
my man, Yen, with the plan builder and experts,
and the king of NFT, Sparta, Leonidas,
our in-house NFT history expert and builder of Ord.io.
And we are here to talk about Ordinal's BRZ20,
Counterparty, Lightning, Bitcoin L2s and sidechins,
and all the things on the leading edge of Bitcoin
with some of the smartest people in the space.
We host the show Monday mornings at 10.30 a.m. Eastern
and Wednesday nights at 6.30 p.m. Eastern
the time zones, and spread the good word
about this new movement of art, culture, media,
trading tools, and new kinds of digital assets
being built on Bitcoin L1.
Ordinal's what?
For those of you just tuning in for the first time,
Ordinal's and inscriptions are a new kind
of on-chain, non-fungible token
first created on Bitcoin.
Ordinal is just a piece of Bitcoin,
a Satoshi that's had data inscribed to it,
literally media, JSON, and other arbitrary data
is uploaded and stored in the Bitcoin blockchain.
Developers are finding ways to turn this data
into innovative applications of all kinds
using, quote, smart contracts implemented as node software
as opposed to on-chain logic.
But more important than this technology
is the cultural change that we're seeing on Bitcoin.
Users and developers are pouring in
and innovation is accelerating,
and that's what we're here to talk about.
With that, let's introduce today's guests.
Of course, we have BitGod and Brad from Redacted.
We have Adam McBride from Emblem Ball.
We have Profits from Web3 Exposed with Good Things,
and Danny from On-Chain Monkey.
We have Bob from Bionic.
We have Chill Pill from Twitter Spaces host
and a friend of the show, sorry,
and Jake from Emblem Ball as well, guys.
And a lot of the really nice people
throughout the show today.
So I'm excited to be here.
I'm glad that you're all here with me.
We've pinned the tweet to the top,
letting everyone know they're alive.
Please take a second.
Give it a retweet.
Give it a like.
Show some love for the algorithms
and welcome more people into the space.
Also, smash that purple button
in the bottom right-hand corner
with your comments and questions.
We'll read them throughout the show.
Don't forget to follow The Bitcoin Ordinal Show on Twitter
at The Ordinal Show.
Subscribe to our subset newsletter.
Link in bio.
We post weekly recaps in the newsletter
and RFP links for future shows
so you never miss what's happening
on the leading edge of Bitcoin.
With that, I'm going to turn it over to Leonidas
to introduce today's show.
Awesome, GM everybody.
Thank you for that wonderful introduction once again.
I feel like I, yeah, I don't know.
Like if I had to deliver that, like you dude,
I'm telling you guys, it would be a brutal.
I've had to do some closes actually.
And it's just not, it's not the same without you, Trevor.
We love you here.
Yeah, guys, we've got another awesome show.
We're going to be discussing this upgrade
that just rolled out yesterday.
We got Danny on stage to help break that down for us.
This brings cursed inscriptions,
which I know lots of people are excited about.
I think Jake and Adam from Inbound Vault
will be rolling out a product that very soon
so we can maybe talk with him about that as well.
And yeah, then we're going to dive into a segment.
Whenever Udi decides to show up,
he has been allowed to come back to the show.
So major update on that end.
He's apologized profusely
and accepted full blame for that whole situation
that we had last week.
So Udi will be coming back to talk to us
about the cultural change happening on Bitcoin.
And yeah, we've got lots of exciting things to talk about
with RareStats.
Since we had Nolish and RareStats Society
and the Ordinals Hub folks on last week,
RareStats have just totally taken off.
So we're going to have a fun discussion around that.
And then lastly, CZ is dropping an Ordinals collection question mark.
How dare you, Leo?
How dare you?
We will discuss the treachery that has occurred
and all of the details coming up shortly.
Thank you guys for being here this morning.
We're going to dive into this first segment now.
So, yeah, guys.
Basically, everybody knows Raph and Rare Ordinally and Casey.
They're kind of like the trio that maintains the core Ordinals code.
And then, of course, there's people like Danny and good things
that kind of help them out with that
and help contribute to the GitHub.
It's obviously an open source protocol.
And last, yeah, I'm sorry, like maybe just over 24 hours ago,
they basically merged PR and basically pushed this new release
that upgrades the Ordinals protocol.
It's called 0.6.0.
Okay.
So we're still kind of in the early stage.
I'm very excited for that to read like 7.2.3 or something.
But give it time, everybody.
But, yeah, this upgrade brings a few minor things that we won't get into.
It's, you know, lots of like nice kind of cleanup type stuff
and fixing kind of small type bug things.
But the really big thing is cursed inscriptions.
Okay.
So this is where you've got all these inscriptions
that we were freaking out about on this show for the past four months
where it's like, oh, my gosh, we found this new inscription
that is this new type of inscription.
And, you know, if we add it, it's going to change all the inscription numbers.
And we've had some very lovely heated debates on the show about
should we change the inscription numbers or not.
It's looking like we're not going to be changing inscription numbers.
The team came up with this pretty elegant solution, in my opinion,
that essentially takes these, there's probably a dozen edge cases now
of these different types of inscriptions that don't fit perfectly
what the indexer was picking up.
And it puts them all in this bucket of cursed inscriptions.
Okay.
So they have negative inscription numbers.
I want Danny up here, who is probably one of the experts on this,
to break this down for us.
Like, Danny, what does this mean?
What are cursed inscriptions in more detail?
Can you break this update down for us?
Sure.
Well, first, you mentioned that it's release 6.0.
And that's right.
It's a .0 release, right?
So it's one step before, you know, many new things are coming.
And the big noticeable change is that some of the cursed inscriptions are visible now to
Ordnose.com and to, you know, all the wallets and marketplaces that use the reference indexer,
you know, from, you know, the GitHub or GitHub.
So that big change means that if they have the wallets and marketplaces basically index these subset of cursed inscriptions.
So it's not the full set of all inscriptions that are probably considered valid, but it is a good chunk of them.
And those are new.
And it means that, you know, people who use, mix them in their Ordnose wallets won't lose them accidentally in fees,
which is a good thing.
And that the marketplaces will probably start listing them.
I haven't checked this morning if they have, but I'm assuming they move pretty quickly, right?
So probably within maybe today or later this week, people will be trading these cursed inscriptions, some of them, right?
There are some that weren't included.
And the cursed numbers and negative numbers will change over time.
They're not meant to not change.
So let's say we discover more cursed inscriptions, which they plan to add more cursed inscriptions
because, you know, it's not complete.
So when they can add it in, they do change.
For example, the Cursed Ordnose website that was up a week or so ago, those numbers have changed since the Ordnose.com
Ordnose.com added the cursed numbers in.
So that's the big noticeable change in this release.
And I mean, I think the biggest one is that they'll probably show up in your wallets soon,
which means some of these curses are safe from accidentally sending them fees.
There are a few other changes in there, too, that people might not have noticed because they don't impact.
One of them doesn't impact many people.
One is the unbound inscription, the one where the miner or the test net.
I forget his name now, right?
He did that really cool.
Yes, super test net.
We had him on the show a few weeks ago.
Our lovely attacker of ordinals that we all, the only attacker of ordinals that we actually like.
Totally.
So that is addressed in this release.
But there is a big update in this release that people haven't noticed that actually is sets up for many great things in the future and also helps define the protocol better.
And that is there's a comment in the in the 6.0 release that says that an inscription.
So this is actually one of the important points of the protocol for ordinals overall, which is how do you map?
So the ordinals protocol really defines two things, right?
It defines what the ordinals theory is, you know, how do you track these marks?
That hasn't changed.
And that's pretty clear.
We all know that the first in first out fee for order.
The second point, the curse inscription is just what is an inscription, right?
So that not a definition or of what's inscription has opened up a little bit with the curse, right?
So that's a big change that everyone noticed.
But the third.
So there's three basically three main rules of ordinals protocol.
The third one is how do you pair one of these inscriptions to an ordinal?
And that was somewhat undefined in the original, you know, the writings by Casey and also in the reference protocol.
Well, actually, so the big thing in this release in 6.0 is there's a comment in there that clearly defines how do you pair an inscription to an ordinal?
And that is inscriptions happen within an input, a specific input when the reveal transaction happens.
And so it is the first stat in that input is the one that pairs with the inscription.
So that's a very clean, elegant, basically protocol rule.
So let me repeat that.
So this is quite important for the protocol and for everyone creating stuff on top of ordinals in the long run.
And that is because previously we've only recognized and still even in this 6.0 release, because the point of release is still only recognizes watching anything about this.
But OK, I mean, what we care about is that we have a very clear and simple definition of how do you pair an inscription to an ordinal?
And that is inscriptions happen in an input and then it's the first stat in that input.
That's the pairing.
And that's that's what this release comments on.
So that's a big change or rather it's not a big change.
It's a even the comments that is consistent with the previous reference implementation, but it makes it very clear how things are defined moving forwards.
And it opens up for multi inscription or bundle inscription in one of the ideas also Casey had, which lets for a more scalable creation of inscriptions.
And because then you can have inscriptions created on the second, third, fourth, you know, as many inputs as you want.
And you could you could basically if you have a collection, you could create something that basically mints, you know, a thousand or inscription collection once and more efficiently.
So things like that are coming and parent child to that has been in the news.
But those are the kind of things that make it more clear when you have this definition, which is, I think, a important part of the 6.0 release.
Yeah, no, I love that.
I think having more efficient ways to inscribe like a lot of these will call like a lot of these curse inscription edge cases because it's this basket of just misfavours.
Basically, some of them were just trying to push the boundaries and do crazy stuff, but some of them were just trying to do obvious.
You know, this is an obvious, more efficient, good way to inscribe.
And I think, you know, we can learn from that. Right.
We can we can see what people are doing and actually use what people are doing to inform how we upgrade the protocol.
So this gets to what I would say is probably the most confusing thing about the curse inscriptions that I had a little trouble even wrapping my head around here.
So I'll just kind of explain it for folks so there's clarity.
So this set of prior cursed inscriptions, right, they can get blessed.
So you've got all these edge cases of inscriptions that didn't get counted as positive inscription numbers.
They get these negative inscription numbers.
OK, and at some future point in time, you can do an upgrade to the protocol and you can take one of those edge cases and you can bless the edge case.
OK, so what's this what this is going to do is it's still going to leave all of the curse inscriptions, the negative inscriptions from that edge case negative forever.
Once it's cursed, it's cursed.
What it can do is bless that edge case so that at a certain activation block height.
So when we reach a certain block number gets mined, every inscription of that type that of that edge case is now going to be counted as positive, which allows us to do more types of inscriptions in the future.
So it's this happy medium of finding a way to always keep the positive inscription numbers what they were not going back in and reordering or doing anything crazy like that.
And also still being able to trade them on marketplaces, right, because we're going to be able to have this cursed inscription section of marketplaces or however people decide to implement that that still allows you to trade.
So that that is just one thing that the whole blessed concept people are having quite a bit of trouble wrapping their heads around.
But that's really all it is.
It's allowing people to trade that type of inscription.
But the actual prior inscriptions of that for the block height stay cursed and negative forever.
So if you own a negative inscription, it's going to stay negative.
The number itself might shift, though.
Good things.
I'm curious if you have any thoughts you want to comment on here.
Yeah, I just I think the idea of being able to inscribe, you know, multiple inscriptions in a single inscription is just super important.
So one of the things I've been talking with folks about as I go and talk on all these spaces with people in the Ethereum community who don't really understand yet what's happening, but they're very they're very curious.
And they're also concerned like people are concerned that, you know, because of the block space constraints, there's not enough room for large collections as it stands.
And for new creators who want to get in that that presents a very big barrier for a lot of things.
And so I think these upgrades that are going to enable scalability and also I think they're going to enable things that that we've built and that others are looking to build as well that are going to enable creators to create more easily, like not have to do all the heavy lifting.
I think these things are incredibly important to the success of this protocol in this ecosystem.
So this upgrade is, I think, the first step in kind of many steps that are that are going to be taken here, hopefully in the near future, that are going to enable a lot of different things.
But scalability is, I think, front and center.
Yeah, couldn't agree more good things.
Great points.
Bob, how's it going?
You are one of.
Hey, you are one of.
I believe one of these people who's been misbehaving a little bit.
Do you want to talk about that?
There is a new kind of cursed inscription created by yours truly that inscribes using a P2WSH transaction type instead of a Taproot transaction type.
And this is really cool.
It was actually initially indexed by the Hero indexer.
Hero has a different indexer.
Hey, Bob, really, really quick before you go on.
Can you explain for people who maybe aren't super familiar with Bitcoin what you just said means?
Yeah, it's it's pretty technical.
Basically, there are different kinds of transaction types, like different kinds of address types on Bitcoin.
You can have like a Taproot address.
You can have this pay to witness script hash.
You can also have like other kinds of transaction types on Bitcoin.
And they use different kinds of signatures and they follow different kinds of rules.
And you have to construct the transaction in different ways.
And so there there are back in 2017 SegWit was released and then we got Taproot, you know, 2021 ish.
And with SegWit, you could now store data in the witness.
So since 2017, we've been able to store data in the witness.
And that's what this P2WSH transaction type does is it allows you to store data in the witness section, just like just like a Taproot transaction.
Taproot is better because it streamlines some things and makes it a little bit smaller and also gives you more, you know, better, fewer constraints.
And so Taproot is definitely the better direction to go.
It does use Schnorr signatures.
And I wanted a way to inscribe just using with ECDSA signatures.
So that's like I mean, I didn't mean to get into all of this right now.
But this is a new kind of cursed inscription where because of the way that they built.
If you look at the Ord code, the way that they're recognizing or searching for inscriptions is they look at the second to last witness section unless there's an annex and then they handle the Taproot annex appropriately.
And in a P2WSH transaction, you only have two witness data sections.
And so if you look at the second to last, you look at the first one when really you need to be looking at the second one.
Some indexers haven't implemented the second to last.
They've implemented just look at the second one because in a Taproot transaction, you basically just look at the second one every time.
And if you just look at the second one like the Hero indexer was doing, then you would pick up these P2WSH transactions just fine because the inscription information is located on the second portion of the witness data.
Anyway, so this is a new kind of cursed inscription.
Currently, cursed doesn't show up in Ord and Hero updated, so it doesn't show up in Hero anymore either.
But it's a very, very easy change to the Ord code to then start enabling inscriptions using P2WSH.
So, yeah, that's been a fun week on the cursed inscription side for me.
I was up, you know, like 24 hours straight trying to get everything to work.
I'm basically like hand crafting Bitcoin transactions, trying to pull this off, you know, tailored, handmade art, artisanal Bitcoin transactions.
And when you do that, if you get one bite wrong on some signature or something is wrong, then it just fails.
So, you know, it was failure after failure after failure until finally got something.
Wanted to just quickly ask Danny.
Danny, I'm curious, with this .o release for Ord, I'm assuming a re-index is required from the beginning for this new release?
That's right. You need to re-index.
And it does take a number of hours, but if you have a big machine, you can do it in half a day.
Also, Bob, I have a question for you.
What are the advantages of doing this?
Well, first, congrats on doing this.
I think you had a tweet that said, well, you know, theoretically, people could have done inscriptions even back in 2017.
But no one has right until you did it, because it's just very tricky to figure that out.
So, but what are the advantages of doing this way?
Is there some specific thing over using the Taproot way?
Yeah. So the only advantage that I've found is you don't have to use Schnorr signatures.
You can use ECDSA signatures.
And that is beneficial because ECDSA has been more widely implemented in a few places than Schnorr signatures has.
So one example of this is I'm building on ICP.
And ICP is a layer one blockchain and they actually have native ECDSA signatures in their smart contracts.
So with a smart contract on ICP, you can sign ECDSA signatures directly from a smart contract.
And so the benefit there is if I wanted to build like a fully decentralized inscription service, I couldn't really do it on ICP because we don't have a threshold Schnorr signature capability.
I'm currently pushing on that with engineers over on the ICP side, we really want to add threshold Schnorr, at which point we can upgrade to, you know, just doing taproot transactions in ICP smart contracts.
But this is basically the benefit.
There are quite a few downsides to using this technique.
Like I think you're limited to 10 kilobytes as the maximum size of the transaction.
I think that's like a serialization limit on the P2WSH transaction.
So you are limited in part there.
You also can't do as complicated scripts because you don't have taproot.
But otherwise, yeah, that's that's basically the limitation that I was trying to circumvent is how can I get, you know, like how how can I build decentralized inscription tech on ICP?
And I needed to, you know, avoid Schnorr and use ECDSA signatures.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for that, Bob.
And again, seriously, these are the kind of experiments that actually just basically help us figure out all the edge cases.
So just yet another fun edge case that I think probably would make sense to bring into the fold.
So thank you for that experimentation.
Adam and Jake, this can be for either of you.
What is Emblem Vault cooking up with their cursed inscriptions that they keep venting at?
Yeah, it's a fun time, actually.
So we actually built a brand new standard for this.
So Emblem's kind of like pushing a few new products.
We came out with curated rare Pepe's recently, which is if you're familiar with Emblem Vault, if you go to the legacy collection, it's 50,000 NFTs.
That's across like 100 different communities.
So the discoverability is just absolutely chaotic, just not a good experience.
So we built out a way to basically abstract those individual collections from any blockchain.
It could be from Namecoin, from Bitcoin, from Dogecoin, etc.
And give it its own smart contract and put it on OpenSea.
So if you go on OpenSea right now, you'll see that it just says rare Pepe's.
So basically we built a curated collection for ERC-721s.
And this will be the first time that we've done this, which then we can use for a lot of other fun things within the ordinal ecosystem, which is probably a conversation for another day.
But we're doing a curated collection for cursed ordinals.
And we built our own API and indexer for it.
And so when you go to OpenSea, it'll just say cursed ordinals, and it'll be kind of a dropdown situation.
If you're familiar with the legacy collection, you have to type in the title, the description, and the image.
The way that this works here is you'd have to basically create your cursed inscription.
And as long as it's existing and it's on the indexer, then you just basically select the item itself.
And it'll populate the image, the title, and the description itself.
So there is still a little bit of nuance to it.
We've built out, and we're currently building out like a whole new front end for it as well.
But you'll just go to the curated collection section and click curse ordinals.
And it should be a pretty frictionless experience.
And we're also rolling out a few other updates in terms or on the emblem.finance page that we will share throughout the week as well.
Exciting.
Can you guys give us a hint on when this will launch?
Everybody wants to, you know, I feel like one of the number one questions is like,
Isn't the key never to give a date, man?
Isn't that what devs like to never give a date, right?
So here, let me, I could tease a little bit.
We are actually working with a certain creator who's been trending in the ordinal space to have a collection there on, cross my fingers, Friday, is the tentative date.
And a cool part to this too, which, you know, maybe some people get upset by this or not, is that cursed ordinals will be able to be traded on blur.
So you can go to blur, you can get blur tokens, you could go bid farm, right?
This will add like a whole new layer of complexity and maybe this like multi-chain future that we discuss and we highly believe in.
Emblem vault, but it just unlocks so much liquidity because open sea and blur have tens of millions of dollars that trade every day.
Maybe not currently, but it fluctuates.
And so it'll, it'll add a whole new dynamic to liquidity in the door in the market.
Yep.
Love that liquidity.
Always been a strong advocate for if you want to bridge things to other chains and just bring that liquidity to those chains.
I think it's a really good thing to be able to do.
Yeah, Trevor.
Yeah.
When are we going to see, you know, wrapped assets from Ethereum, from stacks, from other chains onto BRC20?
Like when will we see wrapped Bitcoin wrapped onto Bitcoin?
You know, it's actually funny is, so Emblem actually, Shannon had deployed Emblem on Counterparty over a year and a half ago.
Uh, and we are working with some individuals, um, on this idea of bringing Emblem vault to ordinals.
Um, it's still kind of early ideas.
It is possible, um, with some of the proposals that exist.
And it's something that we do want to get to, right?
Something of like taking, uh, I know you said stacks, but the easy example here is like taking a CryptoPunk, putting it in a vault and then selling it, um, as an ordinal denominated in BTC, um, would be kind of interesting.
Um, but with stacks too, this would be cool.
Like the goal is to, is to have just this, this cross chain functionality to where we can take a curated collection.
We'll use cursed ordinals, for example.
You can deploy cursed ordinals on currently Ethereum, Polygon, and BSC is where we're deployed.
And then we build this move button or this migration button to where you can just go take that, that cursed ordinal and then go between the different chains with the click of the button.
That's kind of like where all this is going, right?
And then we'll go deploy on like Bitcoin and Solana and some of these other ones.
Um, so that you can really just take your ordinal and go, uh, trade on whatever blockchain is your preference.
Cause our, one of our just like big ethos is to meet collectors where they are.
Some individuals just don't want to leave chains and we highly respect that.
And so we want to make that a frictionless experience.
Yeah.
So the big idea, right.
Is that, you know, eventually if you all believe, uh, you know, it's all going to end up on Bitcoin.
Um, you know, when are you going to be able to trade your board apes on Bitcoin?
When are you going to be able to trade your crypto punks on Bitcoin?
Like that's the big idea.
And I'm hoping by the end of this year, we'll, we'll have that done.
Yo, if we can start trading.eth names on Bitcoin, that would blow my mind.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing, uh, this y'all suite of different products that
I know y'all are working on rollout.
Um, yeah, just one.
Yeah.
One last thing is, uh, just learning the backend, right?
A big issue right now is just the whole indexer thing.
Um, but we have gotten contact with, uh, all of the, I guess you'd say the big, uh, companies
that are running indexers.
And so we're all kind of working together on the backend to get it done is just man building
this stuff out is a, has a lot of complexity to it.
Yeah.
These things take time when you have to like start from scratch.
Um, big God, I know you guys are one of the creators like redacted did a cursed inscription.
Not many people have done like cursed inscription as like part of maybe a bigger project or
bigger collection.
Um, I don't know if maybe you and Brad want to talk about that a little bit.
Brad, big God, if either of you are there, uh, feel free to speak.
Otherwise we will move on.
I think they're sleeping on us guys.
Um, all right, Udi, welcome back to the ordinal scale.
Um, you have, uh, profusely apologized, uh, for your actions in my direct messages and
I have accepted your apology and, you know, thank you for accepting full blame on that
situation last week.
We are very excited to have you back on the show.
We were bleeding listeners without you.
Um, so it's awesome to get you back up here.
I am curious, uh, about basically your kind of monthly pulse check that you've been doing
with us about the cultural change on Bitcoin.
And I'll have Trevor, Trevor's going to kind of host this, uh, talk with you.
But, you know, you hear Trevor intro these shows.
It's like more importantly than this is the cultural change happening on Bitcoin.
And I mean, it is like, honestly, one of the important thing that's happening here that,
um, definitely, I think, uh, you know, several of us are pretty passionate about.
So Trevor, I'll kind of hand it over to you and Udi to kind of have that conversation
and get maybe a pulse check on where that's at, where Max's are as far as being converted.
Before that, I just, I just want to thank, uh, thank Leo for committing, uh, in my DMs
to stop sending me dick pics.
Um, it was really uncomfortable.
I have, I've gotten good news for everyone.
Uh, Leon has actually agreed to stop sending dick pics to everyone.
So you can reopen your DM inboxes.
They're safe now.
Uh, everything's fine.
Everything's good.
Two D-bombs.
Two D-bombs before 12.
Let's go.
They're not, they're not D-bombs.
They are, you know, they're art.
They're, Leo has a certain lifestyle and is part of a certain, um, community where those
pictures are art.
So, you know, um, but I agree.
Leave it to Udi, leave it to Udi to just share my personal direct messages with everybody.
He always does this.
Like I sent him these very personal, uh, you know, messages.
I have this line of communication with them where I, I believe we've kind of created this
rapport and have this trust.
And then he just starts tweeting it out, talking about it on Twitter space with everyone.
Uh, yeah, this is like, not, it's not cool, bro.
Okay.
So moving on to laser eyes and, and by the way, there's some, uh, there's some breaking news.
Uh, Leo, I know that you wanted to talk about, uh, during the show, you wanted to talk about,
um, how you convinced CZ to, um, to do some, uh, take all of your rare sets and stuff.
So I don't know.
There's, there's just been, uh, just been news that the sec is suing actually CZ and
Binance.
So I don't know how this affects the Ornals plans.
Leonidas.
I don't know if it has something to do with you and you were baiting over the weekend.
Um, I don't know if it means that you're like a government agent.
I, all of those things are things I don't know, but who knows?
Anyways, back to, uh, back to laser eyes.
So Trevor, what did you, it's honestly like, there's, there's not much to say.
I think they gave up.
I think they like, they surrendered.
Yeah.
I mean, Udi, this is concerning if they gave up.
I mean, we need someone to dunk on.
We need some utility to Ornals.
The only utility, I mean, the main utility of Ornals has been laser eye tears.
So what are we going to do if they're giving up?
The, the talk of the weekend has been, um, some semi troll posts from a not very reliable
account that claims that Bitcoin developers are planning to ban Ornals and inscriptions.
Um, that, that tweet did some numbers, even though it was pretty much complete bullshit.
Um, it wasn't a lot of truth in it.
I think, um, it is, it is, it is true though.
Like if you go to, if you go to places where laser eye developers tend to congregate, you
will see some discussions about, Oh, should we, or shouldn't we ban Ornals?
Which is kind of funny.
It's like, it's like, if we had Twitter space about, Hey, should we ban the sun?
Is this something we should do?
Let's, let's talk about the pros, pros and cons for a minute.
Uh, is this something that let's, let's have a Twitter space about it and discuss it.
Let's, let's have some debate.
Um, so it's kind of funny that way.
But I think that, um, I think that we're going to see a lot of, the next step I think
is just a lot of podcasts about Ornals and inscriptions from the laser eyes.
So there's this, um, there's, there's a very clear lack of other types of content to talk
about on the laser eyes sector.
And, and, um, there's just nothing happening, especially after the Bitcoin Miami, uh, conference
is over.
They just don't have anything to talk about.
You know, in the last couple of years, they, they had some fake old Salvador news and some
fake news about things that didn't really happen.
And this time they didn't even have that.
So they're going to need something to talk about.
And because sailor approved, um, Ornals is a topic that is allowed to discuss.
And then I think we're going to see some podcasts about it that are not entirely negative, but
honestly, Trevor, I think it's over.
I think it's like, I think the, the war is, I think the war is clearly over.
And I think that, um, kind of in a good way, because, uh, it probably means that they're
going to be able to start doing things that are cool.
Like I, I, I think one of the really interesting things that I've seen, there's a ton of interest,
um, in funding, uh, builders.
Trevor obviously knows this and, and, and there's, there's kind of, even from outside of the kind
of traditional Bitcoin ecosystem, there's been a lot of interest in funding, um,
old and old builders, inscription builders, and just Bitcoin in general, just in the last,
like, I don't know, three to four weeks.
Um, and I'm kind of hopeful that we'll see a bunch of people who have traditionally been
like developers at the laser camp, kind of seeing the opportunity there, not only to
get funding, but also to get exposure to users.
So like one, you know, one thing that I think if, if, if let's say you're a Bitcoin developer,
right.
And you've been, let's say you've been working on a, an open source lightning wallet for a
long time.
Right.
Uh, and you really care about lightning or you've built some privacy solution or whatever.
And you've been struggling one to get funding to, to get like a user adoption for that.
I think that it makes a ton of sense.
If you're, if you're, for example, building a lightning wallet, it would make a ton of sense
to go and integrate Ornals into that.
Right.
And then you can probably expect good adoption just based on that feature.
Because that's the main feature that Bitcoiners are looking for right now.
Like if you ask, what is the thing that causes Bitcoiners to try out new products in, in June,
2023, the answer is all and all stuff and BRC 20 stuff.
So you implement that into your solution.
Maybe you, you know, maybe you, you cut the deal with one of the, um, you know, more popular
tokens or more popular collections.
And you show that you can use lightning on this stuff, right?
You can buy, you, you, you, you work with the marketplace and do an integration for lightning.
And Ornals in the same thing.
Right.
And now suddenly people want to use your wallet that you've been struggling to get adoption
for, for a very long time.
So I think like if, if even for builders who are not necessarily super interested in Ornals
and inscriptions and BRC 20s and all this stuff, I think, I think they're going to start
seeing that it's a very good avenue to, to quickly get to users, to quickly get adoption.
And then, you know, definitely later on, push the things they care about, like, like lightning
and privacy and what have you, but, but, but first you have to acquire users.
And just based on my conversations in the last like couple of weeks, I think that this
is something we're probably going to see more of.
Um, and I'm, I'm very bullish on that.
So I'm actually like getting cautiously bullish on the laser eye community.
I think they're kind of coming to terms with, with the situation.
I think they'll, they'll start learning to, to make the best of it.
Um, at least the ones who are productive, you know, and, um, Udi, you know, I didn't
know this about you because, you know, I looked at, um, you know, you're kind of a man of mystery
because people always like, what does, what does Udi do?
He's like a shit poster.
He's like a memer.
He's a, he's a taproot wizard.
People look into your background.
It says you, you know, you're used to be a software developer, but for some reason
you're like an EVM maxi, which is surprising for somebody.
I mean, maybe you haven't coded in a while.
Um, I'm curious, what are your thoughts on like EVM and the future of L2s on Bitcoin?
Is that about the, uh, private conversation, Trevor, that we had about the EVM?
Like there, there's a, there's a new, there's a new habit on the order hotel that whatever
is said in DMs is no longer, is no longer considered private.
And up until now it was all things that were made up, but Trevor is now crossing into the realm of actual real things.
I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to out you as a, as a EV, as an EVM maxi there.
As an EVM maxi.
No, I think EVM, um, when compared to kind of other, uh, smart contract systems, the EVM
is, as far as engineering is concerned, is kind of inefficient and terrible and stupid,
but it is also, you know, the most adopted by far and has a lot of, you know, has a lot
of apps ratings for it, has a very rich developer ecosystem, has a very rich tooling ecosystem.
If you, if you, I think in general, if someone's going to start like some new platform for use
cases that are similar to Ethereum and chooses to not to use the EVM, they need to have a very
good reason for why, um, because EVM just has a lot of inertia already.
Um, look, it's, it's kind of hard, hard to predict how things are going to play out.
But I, EVM is a lot of, there's a lot of good reasons to choose EVM, even though for engineers, especially
like when it's funny, whenever I talk to actual developers, unless they are smart contract developers,
but if they're developers of, you know, if they're protocol developers, if they're virtual machine
developers, whatever, then they would say that the EVM is terrible.
But if they're application developers and they will say, yes, please give me EVM because
I'm very much not interested in learning something new right now.
Um, so I guess you kind of have to ask who you're trying to optimize for.
Are you trying to make the protocol developers happy?
Like, I don't know, that's like, who cares?
Their job is to, their job is to make the application developers happy.
It's not supposed to be the application developers happy to keep the protocol developers happy.
So just in general, um, I think EVM has that kind of benefit, but, uh, you know, it's definitely
possible that, you know, maybe we were going into like a, you know, a four year bear market
and everyone who used to be an EVM developer is just going to peace out.
And by the time we get the next bull, um, things are kind of, kind of going to change
and no one's going to remember what EVM ever was that those things are possible too.
But I think if you're looking at the president right now, EVM is a lot of, you know,
there's a lot of things going for it.
Yeah.
Leo, do you want to jump in?
Yeah.
So Udi, we had someone come on the show.
Her name's Millie, um, Millie coins and made a claim.
Like maybe this is a month ago now that you are a, you used to be a huge Bitcoin maxi.
So this is like, honestly, I was completely shocked.
Uh, to hear the claim as if this is like, you didn't know that he was a laser eye.
Maybe it's a known thing, but do you want to talk about your, uh, reformation process?
That's why he has sunglasses on to block the lasers from coming out.
Like x-ray from X-Men.
Wait, is that for real?
Udi, is that really like the meme?
This is really why I have sunglasses.
Yeah.
See, I'm learning everything.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's actually pretty.
Like I physically have laser eyes underneath.
He used to like, used to like, you know, burn people to death by mistake, but then he
like put the sunglasses on to stop it.
Love it.
So Udi, do you want to talk about why you, like, basically how do you go from being a
Bitcoin maxi to, uh, more open-minded?
Like what was that process like for yourself?
It was slow and painful.
Um, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why, well, one, why laser eyes hate me so much.
And two, I think why, um, I'm like, you know, like a lot of people have obviously had a lot
of criticisms on Bitcoin maximalism for many years.
And I think that the reason that when I say it, some people consider it to have some weight
is because I, I've been there.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm literally a cold survivor.
And so, you know, when I, when I say it, it's like, ah, shit.
Like it's not, it's not just because he's trying to protect his bags or whatever.
He actually consciously made a choice to change his mind about this.
So like, you have to, you have to at least give it some weight.
You, you can assume maybe I like lost my mind when they went insane, but you have to
like, at least like, it can't be, oh, uh, he's just doing it because he, if you would
like have 50% of all the Ethan himself or something like that.
So anyways, um, the, the, I think that for me, like when I started being kind of publicly
a Bitcoin maxi that was around 2017 and it was because it was basically because of the
ICO era.
Um, and people who were there probably remember that it was like a complete, complete and utter
scam fest.
Like it was, it was bad.
Um, I think, um, I think it's completely fair to say that 99.9% of all ICOs were actually
malicious.
It wasn't a hundred percent.
Yeah.
It wasn't even like accidentally a scam.
It was really like, it was really bad.
And for me, I was, you know, I was back in 2017, I was already in Bitcoin for like whatever,
like four years or whatnot.
And I was like, yeah, look, I gotta, I gotta say something about this because I had so many
people reach out to me about this stuff.
So that, that was at the time.
And I, and, and there also at the time there was this, you know, the entire block size debate
and I was pretty firmly in the small block camp at the time, um, which I thought, and
I still think makes more sense in general for Bitcoin.
So I thought that at the time it kind of made sense to be even more aggressive about
it because it was, it was a minority, um, kind of opinion to think that the blockchain
is not going to take over Uber, that you're not going to have Amazon running on the blockchain
and stuff like that.
That was at the time it was, it was almost controversial in crypto to say stuff like that.
And I felt that being loud about it at the time made sense.
Um, but as, as time went by, you know, the industry changed.
I think a lot of people agreed and realized over time, some of them learned it, learned
it the hard way, but, but, but, you know, people learned that those ICOs do not make sense.
And they stopped doing them largely and, you know, they stopped succeeding and the crypto
industry matured.
And it turns out that some of the use cases started to make more sense, especially in DeFi.
And I'm, I'm talking about early DeFi, not, you know, not all of the 1,000% APY Ponzi schemes
that started in 2021, 2022, but earlier in, in, in, you know, 2020 and I guess in 2019 too,
there've been some, you know, very reasonable, um, somewhat useful attempts that I would say
were not scams.
And it took me personally a while to, to, to, to notice that there's been a difference.
Like I would say probably took me a year or two to realize that things are changing and
that some valuable things are happening that are not Bitcoin.
And I think that actually the final thing that made me kind of change my mind were probably
NFTs.
So, so that's what we're talking about the, the, around like 21, 22, we're excited to see
that NFTs are very, very useful for community building.
And, you know, I just couldn't ignore that.
You know, at some point I was like, well, you know, like the, the sure there's, there's
also been a ton of scams and NFTs and just, just a lot of bad investments too, for sure.
But also I think there's something very real in the community building aspect of it.
And it, it, like, you can see that a lot of it, from my point of view, at least a lot
of what's been done with NFTs in, in the, in the context of community has been done in
the past with, with other coins, with coins that are not NFTs.
Like people were trying to, you know, I've talked about this a bunch of times, like let
let in, in the past, for example, a lot of people used to talk about crypto on Facebook.
So you, you would have these back when people used Facebook, you would have these groups,
uh, where people would talk about their crypto.
That was a pretty popular venue around like, let's say 2015 for people to talk about crypto.
And the most diehard fans would change their Facebook profile picture to their favorite
coin.
So you would have like people with a Bitcoin in their profile picture on Facebook or, or a
light coin or a doge or whatever.
That was, that was something fairly popular within the very hardcore groups.
And that was very meaningful because if you think about it, like most people, their Facebook
network is mostly like, um, people who are outside of crypto.
They're just friends, you know, from friends from home, friends from school, whatever.
And when they started to see a bunch of people wearing the light coin logo, then they started
asking questions and some of them start onboarding through that.
So those things kind of happened in that sense, but that was very, I would say inaccurate.
Like the, the NFTs made it very, um, sort of pure.
Like you're really, the thing that you're identifying with is specifically the NFTs.
You're not telling each other, like stories about narratives, about things like, uh, um, I
don't know, um, Uber owned the blockchain and stuff.
It's really just kind of the art and the community and each person gets to have their own identity.
Like they're not all the same.
So there was like, to me, it made a lot of sense.
It felt like an, an update of the way that people use to do crypto communities.
And, and in a way that's kind of more honest and it makes more sense.
So, you know, it took me a while, but eventually I was like, you know what, there's, there's probably something there.
It's probably the NFTs that opened my mind.
Um, but it was a very painful process.
You know, like one, you have to admit you're wrong.
You have to admit you were wrong publicly too, which is something that I think is difficult for a lot of people.
Like you're like, uh, I've, I've said all of those things for years and now I'm saying something else.
And, and, and obviously people are gonna, you know, come after you too and say, Oh, why did you say, you know, in the past, why did you say something else?
For me, it was very easy. I was like, what, what do you mean? Why? Because I was wrong.
That's like, were you never wrong?
But I think for a lot of people, it's very difficult to kind of admit to being wrong and to changing their minds about fundamental things.
So that was one thing. And the other thing is that I, you know, I just lost out of friends, uh, or more accurately, I lost out of people who I thought were my friends.
Then you realize they're, they weren't really your friends. If they, if they, if they don't like to talk to you anymore, because you changed your mind about something, then, you know, they're not really friends.
It's like, Oh, I decided that I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not Republican. And people say, okay, so I can't talk to you anymore. So I guess, I guess they're not really your friends.
Um, so it was a little bit of a tough experience on that, you know, in that sense, that you kind of learn who your friends are and who aren't, which is not fun.
But, um, but that's also why, you know, like people ask me, like, so why are you so loud about the laser angle? Like, why do you keep talking about them? And, you know, I keep saying that the reason is, when you, when you finally manage to escape a cult, you want everyone to know, you don't want other people to fall for the same thing. It's look, it's a waste of time. It's costly to because you miss out on opportunities. That's pretty stupid.
Um, and you just, you just have a bad perception of the world where you're in a cult. So when you know what it is like to be in a cult and you know what the cost is, um, then you just tend to want other people to not go through the same thing. So you talk about it a lot. And, uh, I really, I really do think that, you know, Bitcoin maximalism is a cult. Ethereum maximalism is a cult too, right?
It's not something that's unique to Bitcoin, but in Bitcoin, it kind of was allowed to grow way, way bigger than intuitive. And that's, you know, that's one of the reasons that I love WarnerMedia so much is because I feel like it just shatters so many of the cult narratives to a point that I think it will stop, you know, the cult from hurting more people.
Like that's really what I believe. So that's like why I, another reason why it means so much to me. So yeah. Yeah. Very bullish, very bullish. And I'm bullish on the laser eyes too, because I think they're, they're snapping out of it.
And a lot of them are like, you know, they have good intentions. They're smart people. They're skilled. And I think once they leave the cult, like there's so much opportunity and so much potential there. Um, just like leaving the cult was, you know, the best thing I've ever done professionally. And I think it will be, um, very similar for a lot of them. So I'm very bullish on them.
Thank you for that great story, Udi. I want to go to a good things. Good thing is hand raised. Go ahead.
Yeah. I love hearing the story, Udi. Um, question for you. What, what is your experience dealing with people online versus dealing people in real life? Cause, uh, one of the, or, or even on voice like versus text. Cause one of the things I've, I've experienced just being in, in NFTs, like, like you, um, mentioned, there's been so many scams. There's a lot of like, there's a lot of vitriol, um, as well, just because of all the money, um, tossing around and there's a lot of drama.
And one thing I've, I've, uh, you know, discovered is that, you know, talking to people, having a voice and ideally having an actual like physical presence, uh, is the most, like the most useful thing to getting people to not change their mind, but have like a reasonable discussion.
So I'm just curious, you know, what is your level of experience there with, um, you know, talking to people, I guess, like as human beings versus just, uh, characters on a, uh, on a social media platform.
Yeah. So that's a great question. Um, you know, before, uh, before we went to Miami for the conference, um, like true story, a lot of people reached out to me and kind of tried to convince me to either not go, or if I do like, I mean, friends try to reach out and ask them to not go.
And, and, and, and if I do go to get like security, um, because people were genuinely concerned, like that someone was going to try to be a hero and do something stupid.
And, um, you know, me and, me and Eric decided against it. We decided we're going to go anyway.
We decided we're not going to get any security in any of this stuff. Um, but it was, it was a serious thing we actually considered. And, and that's just because online on Twitter, you, you definitely saw a bunch of like very physical, very, very personal threats.
Um, but I think it's, yeah, I think it's just an online thing. And when we, when we got to the conference, um, everyone was very, very welcoming, very friendly, including people who, you know, uh, true or like online or maxis or whatever they were, um, definitely very friendly, you know, obviously the debate itself, like, you know, the audience was like cheering and chanting.
So it was like, you know, that was great, but also offstage and around the conference.
And, and of course, in all the satellite events, people were very, very friendly, very open for discussion.
Um, which, you know, I think in general just means Bitcoiners in the real world are great people.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm still very bullish on the Bitcoin community, uh, including the laser eye people.
I think that online, like there's just, there's just the too many incentives for people to basically act out.
Um, they're not even being themselves a lot of times.
They're just trying to impress their friends or whatever.
And sometimes it literally gets to the point of violent threats, but also, also, also they just act stupid.
And, and, but, but I, I think in a real life setting, it's, it's, it changes a lot and it, it shows you what those people really are, which is, which is a good sign.
Um, on spaces specifically, unfortunately, I did not have a fantastic experience.
So I've, I've, I'm rarely trying to go and like maxi laser eye spaces because I, I view it as a waste of time.
Like, I know that, you know, as, as myself, I'm, I'm like this character for them, which, which they want to, um, they want to hate.
Right.
So like going, going on a, on a Twitter space with people who want to hate you, like they're kind of, it's kind of their sport, then they're going to hate you because, because it's like, it's still the Twitter setting, even though it's voice, it's still the Twitter setting.
You still get like the likes and the clicks and, you know, you go, you go to the Twitter space and then everyone's trying, everyone's trying to get like their two minutes of, of fame of saying, Oh, but you're a scammer.
I hate you.
And hope that they get like five followers out of that.
Um, it's kind of a hard to have, uh, to have a good discussion in that setting for me, at least.
Um, I still do it sometimes because I hate myself, I guess, but I, I don't think it's, I don't think it's super productive.
I think the much more productive thing, um, especially when there's conflict like that, I think that the, the, the, the principle you want to go with is show don't tell.
Um, if you, if you just go and tell people, Oh, it's better for you to do this or that, like, it's like, they don't want to hear that, you know, but just, you know, just do, just do the thing and get to a point that they cannot ignore you.
And I, and I, that, from my experience, that, that has done wonders to convert, you know, many of them.
Um, it's, it's way better than go there and tell them what you think.
That's like, not, it's not gonna work.
Yeah. So Udi, speaking of your, um, your debate performance, one of the reasons I wanted to ask you about, uh, bring up EVM is not to, you know, uh, out our personal technical debates, um, you know, in the DMs here, but, um, really to, to talk about how, you know, in the debate, for example, Matt Corallo.
Um, I think he was heavily dunked on by Eric and just showing that he is a little bit out of his depth when it comes to some of the complaints he's making, uh, which are, people have a lot of depth of knowledge on in Ethereum because they actually have the problem they're out like every day.
You know, do you see, um, Bitcoin developers like the core developers, well-known developers actually starting, you know, there's a kind of a feeling like they're too good, you know, like, oh, I'm too good to learn what Ethereum is doing. Right. Um, you know, do you see them sort of, uh, becoming more intellectually humble in that way and starting to catch up on some of the developments that have happened elsewhere that they can, they can learn from and increase their knowledge?
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that, that was, that was, that was pretty interesting. Eric, uh, Eric, I don't know how many people caught that because it was a little bit technical, but Eric, Eric really like, uh, humbled, uh, humbled the guy over there because, um, uh, he was, he was talking about how, um, I think Matt himself and probably some other developers have been making comments, um, publicly about MEV and stuff.
Which turns out are like extremely, extremely basic and, and, and, and based on, on things that are already understood for like five years or so to not be true. And just because on the Ethereum side of things, people have spent so much time thinking about stuff like MEV, proof of stake, um, you know, deflationary stuff.
A lot of, a lot of things that they've actually debated for, for years now, they, you know, they learned something from those debates and from the research and that didn't happen on the Bitcoin side.
Um, it's very interesting. That's something that I've seen from my point of view is a Bitcoin maximalist who transitioned out of it over time. Like you, you, you see how the, the narratives that people on the maximalist side, they used to be relevant, but they, they get stuck on like five-year-old narratives that just don't make sense anymore.
And the reason they're stuck is because they, they don't pay attention to the state of the art. Like they, they don't know, like there's an assumption in the Bitcoin maximalist camp that if, you know, if pre-mines are bad, then Ethereum is bad.
If Ethereum is bad, then anything that Ethereum is doing is bad. Smart contracts are bad. Um, EVM is bad. MEV is bad. Proof of stake is bad. Um, um, having Vitalik exist is bad. Like every single thing that happens on Ethereum is bad. Why? Because 10 years ago they had a pre-mine.
So there's, from the maximalist point of view, there's no point in looking into anything that these guys have done for, for the last like eight years, because there's no way there's any value in it. Why? Because it's all sourced in a pre-mine that happened eight years ago. And of course that logic is insane, but, um, that's how they end up with kind of arguments that are stuck in time and they just don't adapt to the reality of the state of the art anymore.
And that's of course bad for a Bitcoin because there's a lot we could learn, um, from what other ecosystems do. Like if you just, okay, you don't like the pre-mine fine, but it still ended up with billions upon billions of dollars that have been spent on research and development. Of course we can learn from that. Like if, if talented researchers were paid billions of dollars in order to research stuff, of course, some of it is going to be valid, you know, even if it's 10%, even if it's 5% of the researchers,
it was produced, that's still a lot, you know, and it's, it's completely silly to, to kind of lock yourself out of it. But that's unfortunately what's kind of happened in Maximus culture. And I, I, I do think that it's going to change.
You actually see that a lot towards ordinals and inscriptions too. So, um, you know, you, you guys mentioned super testament before. I think he's a great guy, but the, both the way that he presented the bug originally showed a deep misunderstanding from him about what the bug is and what it means.
And definitely the way that the rest of the Bitcoin community talked about it showed a very, very deep misunderstanding from them about what it meant. Like they thought that ordinals were dead. They thought it's over.
And that's because they, they don't understand ordinals. They, they genuinely do not like we were like more than four months into this. Um, they've been spending most of their time and effort hating on this publicly.
They have very strong opinions on why it's bad, but they still don't understand how it works. Um, which is amazing to me. Like, how can you hate someone on something so much and you don't understand how it works? Um, similarly with BRC twenties. Um, I think Matt and, um, Matt made a bunch of, uh, comments on stage about BRC twenties were completely untrue and just show that he didn't take the time to look into it.
You know, you go, you go on stage for a debate in front of thousands of people. You've got thousands of people, you know, taking the time of day to listen to what you have to say, and you couldn't spend 30 minutes in learning about what the thing is so that you don't make a complete fool of yourself before saying it. That's just, I don't know. I don't know why people do that. Um, and you've seen, I like Matt, but you've seen him and other Bitcoin developers make, um, some completely ridiculous claims about,
the, uh, so-called research that was published a couple of weeks ago about how, uh, most inscriptions are owned by a single entity. I don't know if you guys have talked about this on the show. There was this, this guy wrote a blog post. It was some anonymous person wrote a blog post. The blog post was bad. Like it was a badly written. The data was incorrect. The, the, the conclusions were ridiculous. And essentially what he did was he saw that most of the inscriptions
ended up ended up being made by the same entity, by the same address. So they assumed that it's one person who made all the inscription and owns them. Uh, well, in reality, it was UNITAD.
They just looked at UNITAD doing all of the inscriptions because they are the most popular inscription service and the most popular, uh, marketplace and the most popular wallet. So, but specifically they're the most popular inscription service.
So, of course, the majority of inscriptions came from their address, but what the blog post author failed to, to realize was one, that it's an inscription service to, they failed to realize that the service does not own the inscriptions.
And they inscribe it for someone else. You can see that easily, but they, they did not, they did not go that far. So they, they proclaimed that there's one entity that owns like 90% of inscriptions or whatever, which is ridiculous.
And they did this analysis showing that this one entity spent, you know, over a thousand BTC on fees. So the, the, the, um, the conclusion was that it's, it's a fake political campaign where someone literally took a thousand Bitcoin.
That's $30 million, um, in order to fake on-chain activity. And, okay. So one guy had a stupid, bad blog post, but apparently a lot of Bitcoin developers started tweeting this.
So Bitcoin core developers started tweeting this and saying, well, uh, we told you like this whole thing was a sham and it was just a, an attempt by someone to fake activity on Bitcoin and to attack the network.
And it's like, look guys, like this is so low effort. Like go to the Twitter spaces, go to the discord servers. You'll see that there are, those are real people.
Like, even if you think that 95% of the accounts are fake, there are still, you know, there's still a significant amount of people who are clearly talking about this all day.
You can see they have different voices. So like, it's, it's not like, it's not rocket science. It's obvious that a lot of people are doing it.
And really you think that someone's going to spend, by the way, the leading theory was that it, that it was me, that I spent $30 million on miner fees in order to attack the network, which is absurd.
Really? You think I'm going to, you think I'm going to gift miners $30 million just to make you look bad?
So, so, so, but that was, that was a theory supported by actual Bitcoin developers. I think that, I think that it just shows you how little, like the, the, the way that they kind of, that's just being, that's just the reality of being in a cult.
The way that you view the world is that you first reach a conclusion. And the conclusion is it's bad. And then after you reach the conclusion that the thing is bad, you start to look for reasons for why it's bad.
You try to look for reasons to justify to everyone else why it's bad. But the first thing you do is you decide that it's bad. And you spend so little time on trying to understand what the actual thing is, because you already decided that it's bad.
And you already know that it's bad. So, and that's how they fall into these stupid traps where they publicly, you know, share completely insane theories that obviously make no sense.
Like, yeah, I've been joking, me and Eric have been joking a lot about how we're like intentionally taking credit for a lot of the things that are happening in Oral.
Because in front of the laser eyes, they really believe it. They think that it's like, they really think that it's just me and Eric sitting there and trying to get them.
Oh, let's spend $30 million. Let's fake the whole thing. Everyone on Twitter who's talking about BRC20s, they're just fake accounts that Udi and Eric made. That's what they actually believe.
And, and, and you obviously have to be part of a cult to believe that. So like, back to your question, Trevor, I think some people cannot be saved. You know, some people are going to continue to believe this.
And unfortunately that probably does include developers, but also I think a lot of new developers are going to come in and they're just going to easily ignore this bullshit because it clearly cannot be true.
So, and I think that some developers will snap out of it too. I, I, I've been talking to some core developers in the last, you know, couple of months and they were very surprised to learn some of the things I told them because they apparently did not really pay attention to what the Oral community is actually doing.
Uh, they're only looking at it from the mempool view, you know, they look at the mempool and that's all they know about what's going on.
Um, but I think that's starting to change. Like they understand now that they need to kind of look deeper. They understand that people who use ordinals, inscriptions, BRC20s are, are Bitcoin users.
So they have to understand how they use the network in order to, in order to make sure that, that, you know, they're building it. Right. So I do think it's going to change.
Yeah. It's, it's so interesting. The, the cognitive bias. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, you, you, it's even in like, you can compare it to like American exceptionalism in a way where it's like, oh, you know, China is a communist country.
Therefore, you know, there's nothing we can learn from it and everything happening there is bad when the reality is you want to, you want to definitely study it. You know what I mean? You want to see what's going on.
Uh, if you are an American citizen and you're worried about, Hey, is China on the rise, for example, you know, is it a threat, you know, to me personally, like you want to learn as much as you can about it and learn about how, um, they've been so successful over the past many decades, you know, at growing at their GDP and everything like that.
Um, and then, um, you know, the idea that like, I'm, I've, I've seen dude, like this idea of like a blog post comes out, that's like started with the conclusion already in mind and then went to like, just prove that conclusion.
That's like something I've seen, uh, or I've been the unfortunate, um, recipient of for like two years from the Bitcoin maxis in terms of like, Hey, this is a, this is a Ponzi scheme.
Like, let me start with the conclusion of this is a Ponzi scheme or this is a scam.
And then let me like, like work backwards to justify this conclusion.
And I think that's like, you know, that, um, that's, I think it stems from, you know, the bag bias and the tribalism and, um, Udi, how do you think we move away from that?
You know, how do you think we encourage more people to be like, Hey, you know, the idea is not like we're the smartest people in the world.
Maybe we are, but intellectual humility is a core value and we need to study everything going on in the space.
And, you know, we need to not have black, like think in black and white here.
Like, how do you think we encourage more people that are Bitcoiners who maybe aren't, aren't in the Ornals community and they just are not interested in Ornals specifically, but they are Bitcoin Bitcoiners who, you know, want to see Bitcoin successful.
How do we encourage that kind of thinking?
I think it goes back to that show, don't tell mentality.
I think it's going to become very obvious, um, to everyone who's interested in Bitcoin in the next couple of months that the kind of Ornals ecosystem, the BRC20 ecosystem, and probably a bunch of new stuff that's going to pop up.
I think it's going to be obvious that that's where, um, kind of the intellectual bleeding edge of Bitcoin is.
Uh, I think it's already getting fairly obvious to people who are very active and I think that as time goes by, it will become more and more obvious also to kind of people who are not super active in the Bitcoin ecosystem every day, uh, just because it's going to become impossible to ignore.
I think as more and more innovations come from that kind of sector and as the laser eye vitality continues to produce no results whatsoever, I think it's, it's going to become very obvious.
What happened up until now is that the, there was no one else, there was no alternative.
So everyone was like, okay, being a Bitcoiner means being a laser eye.
Um, but now that there is a clear alternative and now that there's a very, you know, very clear, very fast pace of development, I think that it will become increasingly difficult to ignore.
Um, and you already see it.
So anyone, anyone who's active, anyone who's like, you know, keeping up to date with news, um, can no longer ignore Ornals.
Like it's obvious, even people who don't like Ornals are talking about it every day, all day.
So that's, that, that, that already happened.
And for, you know, for the rest of the Bitcoin holders that, you know, the vast majority of them, I would argue, they probably don't know that Ornals even exist because, you know, vast majority of Bitcoin holders just have whatever.
They have some Bitcoin in their Coinbase account and that's it.
They're not like, they're not looking into it every single day.
Um, but I think that, so that will take longer.
But I think that as the, this ecosystem continues to develop, it will not, it will become impossible to ignore too.
Just like, um, you know, I think most ETH, uh, you know, holders probably knew about the merge.
They probably knew about, um, EIP-1559.
They probably knew about the NFT craze, even if they didn't participate, they probably understood that it's affecting their investment in one way or another.
Um, and I think it will happen here too.
It's just not, not at that size yet.
Um, but I think it will be.
I've got kind of an interesting stat that aligns with a lot of what you're saying.
So we had you on the show back in February and I think when you, when we did our like culture pulse check with you, it was very much, you know, there's an all out kind of culture war waging.
And there's a lot of maxis really kind of like genuinely very upset with yourself and this whole Ordinal's thing.
Right.
And at that time, you know, maybe this is like the first or second Ordinal show cafe Bitcoin show, you know, runs at the same time on these Monday mornings.
They had maybe like five times more people than us in the, in their space.
Right.
We were obviously much smaller back then.
Then we had you on again in April.
And for the first time we flipped, uh, cafe Bitcoin.
And, you know, we were kind of having similar numbers of listeners to cafe Bitcoin.
And at that point, I would say Bitcoin maxis kind of just stopped talking about Ordinal's.
Like it just wasn't as, it wasn't this constant attack.
It was very much a, you know, we're going to be quiet because some of the stuff we said just didn't, uh, age super well.
So we're just going to not talk about it as much.
And then now here we have you in June, we have like twice the listeners of cafe Bitcoin.
And essentially like what you're saying is you're actually starting to see conversions.
Like we, I've been waiting to have you on this show for four or five months now and have you say, I'm starting to see some conversions because, you know, from a financial perspective,
perspective, obviously, you know, everybody talks about the deep liquidity on Bitcoin, but I genuinely think like if, if Ordinal's is going to bring a lot of this Web3 activity to Bitcoin, you know, the sailors of the world have very deep pockets.
And I don't know, like I, I just wouldn't be shocked that, you know, once it becomes socially acceptable for sailor to like buy, you know, an epic Satoshi or buy like a, you know, sub 100 inscription that he might actually do that.
So, yeah, I'm, you know, obviously excited from the, the financial aspects, but I'm also just excited from the kind of cultural aspect and the innovation aspect.
Cause like you mentioned, like capital is going to flow into the space.
Okay.
We're already seeing it.
And if all these developers that used to be kind of anti-ordinals can just hold out a bucket and money falls from the sky into the bucket, they're probably going to do that.
Right.
And financial incentive alignment, I mean, I, probably the reality is like financial incentive alignment explains like 99% of the stuff you see on Twitter.
It just does.
And as soon as these guys realize that they're financially incentive aligned with the ordinals community and pretty much any Bitcoiner who holds, you know, BTC is going to benefit from the activity that, you know, is happening on Bitcoin due to ordinals and BRC20.
They're going to, yeah, they're going to be pro ordinals.
I think it's literally that simple.
So it just takes time for this to play out.
So Udi, I mean, props to you for being at the front of this kind of cultural war.
I honestly, part of me hates that yourself, Trevor, and like a bunch of other people have had to go through just genuinely, probably very mentally taxing, kind of, you know, mentally taxing years of a lot of just total bullshit.
And it's, you know, you can't get that time back.
Like it's, it was completely unproductive basically for probably both sides.
It's just like, it wasn't a very healthy dynamic, but, you know, coming through prevailing here in the end.
I mean, I think it is starting to become time to say, hey, I think, you know, Udi's account doesn't necessarily need to be, you know, trolling Maxis anymore because it's almost like the culture war is kind of over.
Like they're tucking their tail between their legs and, you know, heading over to Nostar or they're converting and they're just like joining us because like that's the fun thing to obviously do, right?
Like why would you, why would you want to stay in the group of like bitter people?
That's like, obviously most normal people want to hang out with people who are doing fun, cool stuff.
So congratulations.
I mean, how does, how does it feel to kind of come out the other side of this?
Like, I mean, half decade saga, you know, on top like this.
Yeah, it's wild.
It's wild because, you know, we, I think, I think we kind of always knew we would have to happen one way or another.
And I think that the way it is happening is a lot better than what I was more concerned about, which is that Bitcoin just completely loses the race.
It just becomes kind of almost irrelevant.
Like the scenario I was afraid of was that, like, yes, I think Bitcoin has very, very strong properties that make it genuinely better than ETH and other coins for being like money.
But are people going to get that if, if everyone online is like so impossible to deal with?
Like, are people going to understand that Bitcoin is all those things?
Am I going to live to see that?
Or is that going to happen like 500 years from now?
And so it's, the thing that feels great is that it seems to be, it seems like it's being resolved in a positive way.
You know, so that's, that's the thing I'm kind of happy about.
And by the way, just on the topic of people converting, I think if you, if you scroll down the space right now and you look at people who are, there's a bunch of kind of new-ish accounts, I think that popped up with Ornals.
And I think you're going to find that a lot of the people who are here are actually converted, laserized.
They just start new accounts because they literally cannot be publicly with their old persona, identify with Ornals stuff.
But yeah.
I'll be damned, dude.
I'll be damned.
I was literally told this, like, or I was, someone was told this, my, this is a secondary source, but someone was told this, who I trust in person by somebody.
Fuck, I'm running, be right back.
At Bitcoin Miami.
Like, someone came up to, I think it was, Jan, was it you actually?
No, I think it was somebody else.
Like, someone came up to me and said, I can't listen to your show on my main account because my boss has, my boss at this Bitcoin company has made it a rule that no one in our company can listen to the show.
Yo, that is so nuts.
Like, honestly, when it gets to that level, it's just like, I don't know, this is like, you know, Trevor.
The Streisand effect, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I don't know, man.
It's like, I don't know.
It's just, it's really, yeah, it's weird.
That's weird, dude.
That's very, it's deeply weird in many ways.
Yeah, yeah, this is, it's, it's fascinating.
Like, the cultural aspect of this whole thing is like, you know, maybe a lot of people don't pay attention to it as close as maybe a few of us on stage do.
Maybe, like, honestly, probably a lot of people, like, with orange backgrounds right now literally probably don't, literally don't ever see maxi stuff.
Like, it's just not, not even in their heads.
But, yeah, I mean, this has been a thing that's been going on for quite a while now.
And I think, yeah, like, Udi, I'm actually with you.
I don't, I don't know if I've said this publicly, but probably, like, maybe up until, up until basically ordinals, you know, I had also been on Bitcoin.
And then around 2017 kind of moved over to ETH because that was just what was interesting, being a developer.
And I came to the conclusion that the network effects on Ethereum were just so strong around the developers and the users that if that trend continued, you know, I'm just, you know, I followed trend lines as, like, a kind of investor.
That trend line would lead to, you know, Ethereum having a stronger network effect.
And whether you believe it's a better or worse technology, you know, history has many, many examples of maybe an inferior, not as ideal technology having better marketing or having better, you know, just stronger network effects, right?
A better culture, whatever, whatever it is that leads to that technology proliferating.
And this is the kind of thing where this stuff kind of, you know, it's all in competition with one another.
But I definitely do, like, there was never going to be a world where Bitcoin and Ethereum were, like, the same size for an extended, like, multi-decade period of time.
And probably one of them will be significantly larger than the other.
And I was in the camp that that would be Ethereum just because this whole, like, Bitcoin maxi culture thing was such a, I mean, it was just such an absolute turnoff.
It's like the biggest advertisement ever to developers and users, do not come over here and use what we're doing.
And they held up that sign for many years.
And I was like, OK, these guys are going to bury their heads in the sand.
And just slowly that trend line is going to overtake them.
And, I mean, genuinely, I think this has been a little bit of a turning point for Bitcoin.
And that trend line, the way it was going to continue, I think, you know, very possibly it still could continue that way.
Like, I can't predict the future.
Ethereum's got a lot of great things going for it.
Still a lot of awesome developers there and stuff.
But Bitcoin has a really solid fighting chance now.
And I think that's, like, super exciting that we're going to, you know, bring life back into this just incredibly ancient, iconic blockchain.
Yeah, and Leo, even, like, to be clear for the audience, like, before Ordinals, it wasn't just that, like, you know, the laser eyes weren't cool or they were lame.
It was like they would literally attack developers, you know, for doing things, you know, for having a token.
They would attack you.
They would attack you for literally, you know, not being a member of the cult and, you know, not being a, you know, one of the, like, socially halal, you know, projects that really the filter was, is this person in my social group or not?
You know what I mean?
And now, you know, now we're putting a stop to that where it's, you want to build on Bitcoin?
Fucking do it.
We love it.
You know, give us more.
You know what I mean?
We want to be more welcoming than any other community where it's, like, you just ship one line of code.
We're, like, cheering you on.
Like, you're the effing man or woman, you know?
Like, we don't want to, instead of, like, people come here, they build, they get literally attacked.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think on this show, we've done a pretty decent job.
I know Trevor, Udi, myself, this is something we're, like, again, a little bit more passionate than the average person about.
But I think we've done a pretty good job on this show of trying to instill a culture in this space where you don't let these, like, kind of weird fringe beliefs just kind of become normalized, right?
So, for example, Domo does that BRC20 Twitter thread.
People are talking about BRC20.
We bring him on the show.
And, I mean, I could easily see that show have been going.
That show could have definitely gone in the direction of, you know, people start coming up and saying what Domo did is really bad, and this is bad for the space, and this protocol sucks.
And it's okay to voice those opinions, but I think it is problematic if the majority, the voice of experimentation equals bad wins out.
And so far, we have not let that, like, truly stop anything.
Like, obviously, I don't need to explain to people how successful BRC20's been since then.
But I can think of lots of little moments like that where, yeah, I mean, look, we could still, like, we have an excellent culture, I would say.
There's obviously things we could work on, but I'm extremely happy with the culture that's being created here in Nordels and how welcoming we are to developers and encouraging experimentation.
But it's not inconceivable to think that we could, you know, take our eye off the ball and lose, you know, the golden goose that we have right now by just, again, having the same situation of, you know, weird incentive alignments come up and then you start compromising on core values.
So it's, like, as long as we can have core values that sit deeper than financial incentive alignments, we're going to be okay.
But there's little instances like the Bitcoin frogs, naked frogs thing where it's, like, all of a sudden all these people who would have been pro-permissionlessness, pro-free markets, pro-just-let people trade assets,
where all of a sudden, like, there was a little mini movement to, like, block this collection from all the marketplaces.
And that's just the kind of thing.
It's, like, shut it down.
Like, I don't care if you like Bitcoin naked frogs or don't like Bitcoin naked frogs.
It's, like, who gives a shit?
We shouldn't be introducing this idea of, hey, it's bad for my bag, so we now need to, like, heavily attack and try to censor this collection.
Like, it was shocking to me how quickly we flipped that switch.
And I just want us to be really cognizant of this, like, kind of cultural thing.
And it's not just the people on stage up here telling you, you know, this is how we need to do things, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I mean, this is something that every single person, like, every time you tweet, every time you message in Discord, every time you talk on a Twitter space, you are creating this culture, right?
And in a space that's very tiny and nascent and is growing so quickly, the stuff, the culture that gets set early on by those tweets, like, again, whether you think your tweet is seen by that many people or not, it has huge ripple effects, like, 10 years from now.
And I can't really explain that enough.
So we have to get this culture right.
If we get the culture right for ordinals, I think we're just going to absolutely crush it over the coming years.
If we screw up the culture, we somehow, again, just kill the golden goose, we're going to run into major problems.
And other people and other protocols that are able to attract developers and attract users are going to win.
I do think ultimately in these crypto economic systems, it's a battle for, it's a battle for, like, that kind of social consensus kind of, you know, situation.
It just is.
And network effects are just extremely strong and will kind of dominate at the end of the day.
That's my, that's the end to my little rant there.
Trevor, did you want to say anything?
Yeah, I want to, I want to double down on that.
I mean, I think it's really about, you know, focusing on growing the pie rather than carve, you know, taking a slice for yourself.
Like, we need to cooperate, you know, you need to support people that maybe you think are doing dumb things.
If they're good people, you know, if they're legit, they, you know, have credibility, do things right, you know, build a track record.
You know, there's going to be a lot of dumb ideas.
And that's just the reality.
And there's going to be a lot of failure.
I mean, in Web2 and Silicon Valley, 95% of startups fail.
And you need, like, you need to dial that number up.
It's literally the law of large numbers.
You know, more failure equals more success because you need quantity.
The only way to get quality is to increase the quantity in innovation.
And so Bitcoin in Web3 is a lot harder.
So, you know, you're going to have to hire the 95%.
And, you know, well, in order, like, to have those 99 failures, if we have one breakthrough that becomes a unicorn startup that onboards, you know, a million new users to Bitcoin for a new use case, that is well worth it.
That is more, that is like, you know, that is the price of growing this industry and growing this technology is that a lot of entrepreneurs are going to fail.
And they're already failing in Silicon Valley.
Like, if you're an entrepreneur, resilience is so important.
And you just got to expect that your first company might not be successful.
But the second one, the third one, the odds of success go up every time, you know, there's a huge, like, luck factor, timing, things out of your control, you know.
And so we need to be encouraging of not only, like, things that we don't think are good ideas.
Like, with, you know, with BRC20, for example, a lot of the people were, you know, thinking, like, hey, this doesn't make sense.
Like, good, nice toy.
Like, why don't you do this differently instead?
And then, you know, what do you know?
A lot of people were wrong about it.
Because, you know, sometimes simplicity maybe is the priority to get something to gain adoption.
Or maybe something else, like having it in the order of envelopes so people could see it on all the Dune dashboards was an amazing growth hack for this.
And so, like, the culture is, yes, of course, we know that people are going to do dumb things.
But we want them to do dumb things because that's going to lead to more innovation.
And we will accept the cost, which is failure.
You know, some people who come out here and speculate are going to invest in a project that's going to fail.
Great.
Like, that's capitalism.
That's what happens in Silicon Valley.
It's going to happen here.
And, you know, it's up to people to make their own decisions with their own money.
Like, you know, if you have a friend investing in the space, you know, and they invest in some BRD20 project that they lose their money on, like, you know, that's your, you know, your friend bears some responsibility for what they do with their own money.
And we have to, you know, try to call out the scams and rugs and be vigilant and, you know, help protect people as well.
But we can, you know, nothing's going to be perfect.
And we have to make trade-offs in order to get where we want to go.
Yeah, what you just said there, Trevor, is, like, very counterintuitive, right?
But it's absolutely true.
The more of these, like, silly, dumb experiments that we try, the more successful this space is going to be.
Like, I 100% believe that.
And I can understand why people might not get that, you know, intuitively right off the bat.
But once you understand, you know, go study Silicon Valley, right?
Like, they've created so many incredible technologies and innovations, and it's basically revolutionized our entire civilization over the last 50 years, like, that single area.
And pretty much everyone who goes in and analyzes, why is that the case?
Why is that?
Why is it that there are, like, 3,000 unicorns from this little piece of the country and then, like, 30 from the rest of the country or something insane like that?
Every single time they come to the conclusion that it's this culture of basically encouraging people to try stuff and actually literally respecting the hell out of people for trying and failing.
Failing gives you, like, this badge of honor.
And, you know, there's been so many analyses, and that is always pretty much the conclusion that people come to, and I very much agree with that.
So if we can bring that culture here, that's a huge W for, you know, the ordinalist ecosystem, and I think Bitcoin and crypto as a whole.
Trevor, do you have anything else on that segment?
Otherwise, we can move on.
No, man, I think we beat that horse as dead as we could, you know, double down on it.
I see profits as our hand raised profits.
Do you want to add something?
Hey, can you hear me good?
Yeah, I can hear you great.
All right, GM, everybody, great show.
I want to ask, if this wasn't already discussed, how can we, because like you guys said, you know, we're going to see the grifting and the bullshit on the chain, and a lot of that's going to come as the market gets adopted, as ordinals get more adopted, as more awareness comes out.
How can we, you know, protect the house?
That's the first question.
And for anybody that, you know, wasn't, let's say, a big, Trevor and Leonidas, I don't know how big your platform was November 2021.
Mine was maybe 3,000 followers.
You know, we're all in the middle of this crazy NFT narrative, hype, pump and dumps, hype, pump and dumps.
But the stuff I was saying then is pretty much what I'm still saying now, but people are listening now because I have a bigger platform.
So, I feel like we have all an advantage here that are, like, truly building and trying to give out the information, trying to innovate.
We have the opportunity now to use our platforms for good.
So, I just want to throw that out there.
But how do we protect the house?
How do we protect the future of what's going to happen with ordinals and BRCs?
Look, I think, I do agree, there's a level of, like, responsibility that comes with having, like, the more followers you get on Twitter, it's just, like, more followers, more problems.
Like, that's definitely, I think, the reality.
And there is a responsibility that kind of comes with that because people are, like, actually listening to you, making financial decisions based on what you say.
Realizing that that's the case is, like, it's interesting to realize that, like, you tweeting one thing actually affects the market.
That is a really weird realization to come to.
But I think there is, like, a responsibility that we kind of have.
I personally lean on the side of, like, I don't super actively call out kind of scam type stuff necessarily unless it's, like, insanely obvious.
Like, to me, like, I'm not going to say it, but there's, like, a pretty large project right now from Ethereum that is kind of, like, you know, riding this orange wave a little bit, right, obviously to make a bag.
And, yeah, it's, like, I'm not going to, like, actively kind of call this stuff out.
And, like, I don't think it's, like, super great, but it's kind of, like, if you, like, all the information, all the chips are on the table, like, cards are on the table, all the information is out there.
If, like, if you still want to go buy stuff like that, I'm not going to, like, stop you, right?
Like, it's, I think, I would hope people understand what they're buying.
I actually think, you know, retail investors are actually pretty decently, like, intelligent, right?
Like, decently have a pretty decent understanding of what's actually going on.
Like, they're not this thing they just get painted out to be is, like, totally, you know, irresponsible and having, you know, no understanding of what's going on.
I think people understand mostly what's going on.
And if some, you know, really bad thing kind of happens and that needs to be called out, you know, I'll definitely do it.
But in general, I kind of just let these things kind of fade away over time.
And they usually kind of take care of themselves.
I don't know.
There's other people up here who might have a stronger kind of stance on calling things out and using their account to kind of, you know, actively push back against certain things.
But I've always taken the stance of, like, if you follow me, kind of, like, I'm going to tweet about the stuff that I like mostly.
I'm going to mostly focus on the things that I care about.
And, yeah, that's, like, if I'm not, like, tweeting about it, I probably, like, am not that interested in it.
But so that's the kind of stance I take.
Trevor, I don't know, like, Udi, anybody else?
Real quick, thank you for saying that.
And this is not to say, like, use your platform to call stuff out by any means.
I personally have just experience in marketing and a lot of these markets for a very long time.
So I just see trends and kind of talk about what I've seen and experienced.
Sometimes that means, unfortunately, calling stuff out.
But I'm not necessarily saying that, but more or less, I guess, how can we highlight the good stuff more?
Like, I know to, you know, follow what you say and Big God and Trevor and a lot of the other obvious major, you know, people that have a platform on this, on specifically on Ordinals.
But, like, for the newbies that don't know, oh, new men, let's do it just because it's Ordinals.
Like, how can we bring more awareness to the good stuff to invest in?
And not necessarily bash the bad stuff, but put more awareness on the stuff that should be talked about.
And you just said it perfectly.
You said that you only talk about what you really, really like.
So, I mean, that's a great indication right there.
Trevor, my bad.
Yeah, I would say, like, you know, yeah, like, that's a great example.
It's hard, though.
It's hard, right?
I mean, you might find, you know, great work from an artist who, you know, doesn't know how to build a community, doesn't know how to do marketing.
And, like, the reality is that, you know, being an artist in today's world, you need to be able to do that.
You need to be able to sell.
You need to be able to sell.
Like, look at Jeff Koons.
Like, he's the most, you know, people would argue he's not the best artist, but he's the best, you know, at promoting his art, right?
And I think when it comes to scams, I think, you know, it's more like when something, like, a lot of stuff you can ignore until, like, it starts to become, like, get a little bit of traction.
I do think you, you know, don't want to jump the gun, but at the same time, you do want to, like, let your reservations be known, you know, about something.
I mean, when we, like, last week when we had the nine-hour show to celebrate 10 million inscriptions and we had a, like, at the end, we found this, like, 10 MM token.
I was just like, yo, everybody just mint this.
We have to get over 10 million.
I'm exhausted here.
Leo had said, like, 10 times, like, can somebody just launch a BRC20?
And so we minted it out.
And then, like, within a few hours, and it was, like, trading on secondary, got to, like, number two in volume.
And then, like, someone created a Twitter account that looked like the official Twitter account for the project, you know, and then they're promoting another white list on that.
And so the next day, I, like, I DM them.
I said, hey, you know, like, what are you guys doing?
You know, like, can you, like, say anything?
And they just respond, like, hello.
So then I'm, like, I sent out a tweet being, like, yo, I don't know what this account is.
And it got a lot of followers.
I don't know what this account is.
Could be a scam.
Looks like it.
You know, not sure.
But, you know, here's the real deal and, like, just be aware of this.
And then, like, it's, like, you know, you can retract.
Like, you have to be honest to be able to, like, retract it if they come forward.
If it was, like, Leo DM me, it's, like, yo, that's my project, Trevor.
Like, why, you know, why are you doing that?
Then I'd be, like, oh, my bad.
You know, actually, it's a legit project.
You know, false alarm, everybody.
So I do think you want to be, you know, like, don't be afraid to, like, I didn't know it's this game.
I just said it could be, and it, like, seemed like it, you know, it has, like, they're promoting another whitelist off of, like, the attention around that experience.
So I think that's kind of where I try to strike the balance.
Yeah, I love that.
Jan?
Yeah, I just want to add to the conversation.
I think it's a brilliant conversation.
I think that, you know, ultimately we kind of need to strive in general just educating people about this new stuff, right?
Because I think, Leo, to your point that, you know, you believe that, let's say, the retail investors, they're usually kind of educated.
I mean, to some extent, right?
Because what I've seen quite a bit, you know, as this space actually continues to grow very fast, right?
We're onboarding a lot more people into Bitcoin and we're in a bear market, right?
Obviously, so there is a cap to, you know, how many people we're onboarding, obviously.
But I see a lot of people just really kind of are lazy to understand this stuff before they start spending their money.
And obviously, that's their responsibility, to your point, Trevor.
But if we can kind of, as a collective, do a better job just kind of founding that education so that people kind of avoid the obvious mistakes.
Like, for instance, Trevor, you mentioned, you know, the BRC 20 minutes during the 10 million, right?
Like, I got so many people in my DMs after that kind of like worrying or being afraid, hey, how come I don't see my BRC 20 in the wallet?
And like, why is this not valid when they minted after that inscription actually ended, right?
Like when they were actually kind of beyond that validity of that inscription, right?
And so this is just, it just comes down to the better education of just understanding the basics because, yes, like people lost maybe 10 bucks or 20 bucks when they did this.
But ultimately, we kind of want to avoid that, right?
And so I think it's just about like trying to figure out a way how we can share as much as education content as possible so that these people that are coming in, they probably cannot miss that, right?
But obviously, it's hard, you know, like I think we will not be able to do it perfectly, but just keep trying, you know?
Yeah, I think education is obviously incredibly important.
I've come to this conclusion that I think the reality is like the tooling and the software that people use, like their user experience, that is probably the most efficient way to solve like 95% of these problems.
Again, education is incredibly important.
I've just seen, you know, I've seen many of these sort of like education examples over the past few years.
And yes, you're going to educate some people, but some people just like, you're literally never going to get them to read like a Medium post or, you know, they'll retweet the first tweet in the thread, but they're not going to read the whole thread.
And yeah, I mean, like that's, there's just a large group of people, like we live in this like weird attention economy where, you know, you've got people's attention for like three or four seconds on a lot of pieces of content.
And there's just, there's a group of people who is never going to go read the Medium post.
And for that group of people, which is actually a pretty large group of people, you know, you need to solve this at the user experience level.
And the tooling needs to basically make an experience that's very elegant and intuitive for them where they're not, you know, having like these like kind of weird moments in their user experience of a product and a protocol where they're like, wait, what just happened?
I'm super frustrated, right?
And shout out to like Xverse, you guys are an example of like a really great tool that I would consider to be very intuitive to use, right?
And I think we just need more, we need more of that.
Like we need more people building in the space, solving those problems at the software level so that they don't ever be, they don't bubble up into like frustration and anger.
We've all used like, come on, like we've all used really bad tech products before and it's like super frustrating.
And like, we don't want to be that space.
We, we want to be like Apple's about to do a, you know, live event in like 45 minutes here.
We want to be like Apple, a little less like Sparrow Wallet.
That's maybe that's what I'll kind of leave that.
How dare you, sir?
How dare you?
No, and pure point, Leo, I think I fully, I fully agree.
And, you know, I just want to say that there's just so much more to build, right?
Like, I mean, the experience is definitely not perfect.
It's very far from perfect.
And so, you know, maybe I'm just going to do a little shill here, guys.
If you're engineers, if you're looking for a job in the space, hit me up because we need more engineers.
You know, like there's just so many things to do, so many things to build, so many things to improve on the user experience side.
And we need more of you guys to keep help, to keep helping us do this.
So, you know, just, just hit me up in DMs if you're engineers and looking for a job in the space.
Love it.
And, Jan, we actually, like, you're on this show, but, like, we don't talk about experts, like, that much.
Is there anything you want to share?
You know, like, I feel like as a co-host, you don't want to, like, use the platform to, like, shill, like, the company you're working on.
Bro, much respect for that, Leo.
So, thank you for fucking saying that.
So much respect for that.
No cap.
Yeah.
So, Jan, I mean, can you just, like, share with us, like, anything that y'all are excited about for experts?
Like, you guys are obviously crushing it right now.
So many people are using experts as they're, you know, kind of, I call it the metamask for Bitcoin.
Do you want to just talk about that for a moment here?
Yeah, you know, definitely happy to discuss some stuff.
But, you know, to your point, I definitely don't want to misuse the platform here because, you know, ultimately, this has to be an objective platform open to everybody.
And I am probably, and Trevor is going to probably tell you more about this, but I'm the last person that is going to keep shilling stuff every day on different spaces.
But, anyways, you know, really appreciate you guys obviously taking notice and kind of, like, you know, allowing to have this conversation.
I mean, ultimately, again, like, what I'm excited personally, even, like, you know, obviously for experts, but in general, we definitely need to improve the tooling and, you know, improve the user experience, which is something we're doing.
But, you know, it's actually pretty hard, right, because it's moving so fast.
And there's, like, new things every single week that people want.
And then, like, you need to kind of, like, manage that together with, like, fixing everything else that is kind of, like, of a very high priority, right?
Because we obviously find issues as we go, as we are scaling.
And so, you know, ultimately, it's kind of, like, you know, managing that and adding new features.
But ultimately, you know, like, I cannot spill too much alpha just yet because we're still in the process of finalizing everything.
But hopefully in the next one or two weeks, we're going to announce some really, really awesome partnerships and stuff that is going to allow us to scale further and work with some of the best people in the space to, like, really, really carry this space forward.
And so that's something that I'm super excited, you know, because, you know, like, I think what we're trying to do with Exports Beyond the Product, you know, is really trying to do something that has never been done on any other chain, you know.
And ultimately, we're talking about Bitcoin, which is basically the big daddy of all the chains, you know.
And so that's something that I am personally spending a lot of time on because I am not an engineer myself.
So, you know, I can focus on more the business side of things.
And, you know, I've been traveling so much recently, past two months, basically just on the road all the time, just trying to make this stuff happen.
And so, yeah, in the next one or two weeks, guys, we're going to be announcing some awesome stuff.
And I'm sure that you guys are going to be all super excited.
Awesome.
Jan, thank you for that.
Let me teach you how to show something.
Like, when I show my stamps, all I do is I say, hey, Jake, you have a question.
Go ahead.
I'm here for the stamps giveaway.
Please drop it.
I need that stuff ASAP.
What's the password and how many can I mint?
Ribbit!
Yo, please only mint two.
If you check the tweet at the top, giving away my rarest sub 5K Bitcoin stamps, cost a few bucks to claim them.
Network fee slash preventing people from hoarding.
Go to the tweet at the top, click it, join it, read the rules.
The password is gold, G-O-L-D.
Do not say the password in the Discord or you will be put on timeout.
You will be sent to purgatory where you are alone by yourself in a white room and no one can hear you scream.
So, do not share the password in the Discord.
The password is gold.
What a masterclass of shilling, man.
I really have to say I appreciate that.
Dude, we've been shilling free Taproot.
We've been shilling so much great stuff over the past week.
I mean, so many people DM'd me and they were like, thank you so much for that free Taproot Wizard.
You know, I'm now in the, you know, holder's chat of Taproot Wizards Discord because of that free Taproot Wizard you and Trevor got us.
So, yeah, I mean, we're just trying to show all the best stuff out here, Jan.
We really have to thank Discord.io for that.
Man, I have to tell you something.
Man, people are literally DMing me that Trevor has been hacked.
You know, like last week, people are like, hey, what's going on with Trevor?
Can you please find him?
His Twitter has been hacked.
You know, like that stuff literally happened last week.
Yeah, that was a fun week.
That was fun.
I was trying to make, I was trying to play that up.
Like I was trying to make people really think I was hacked, but it didn't work.
Like as soon as I started retweeting the people that said I was hacked, I don't know.
They thought I wasn't hacked for some reason.
Yeah, that was weird how they felt that.
Demon, what's up?
Welcome to the Ornal Show.
How are you doing?
Thank you, Leonidas, Trevor, Jan.
Great show, as always, loving the insight.
If you guys are just joining us, bottom right, retweet the room.
Doesn't cost you anything.
You got to show some support to these amazing people.
And speaking of tools, like, you know, you're shilling all these tools.
You're not talking about Or.io.
This is like one of the most insane tools.
If you haven't used it, I don't know what you're doing.
Like you could find some crazy shit, like the last thing from the last night, ZK Sharks thing.
You know, you got to look out for this stuff.
So, like, yeah, 100%, bro, you're leading from the front.
Love to see it.
And, yeah, here for it.
Appreciate those kind words.
Demon, we need you more on the show to chill our back.
Yeah, Demon, come up more often.
Got it.
Tell us how great the products that we're building are.
But, yeah, actually, shout out to you, Demon.
I mean, Citadel is like, Citadel came onto the scene a few weeks ago and has been like an orange-pilling machine.
Like, honestly, you guys are an engine that's just, like, unbelievably awesome and just, like, do – I mean, I don't know.
Like, you guys have single-handedly onboarded so many people.
Like, probably, like, half the orange backgrounds are from people, like, listening to your spaces where you're, like, bullying people into getting orange backgrounds and stuff.
So, I don't know.
Like, y'all's onboarding is just, like, next level and have much respect for what y'all are doing.
And it's, like, I joined y'all's Discord.
I'm not kidding.
I got 200 people welcomed me to your Discord.
Like, I just kept getting notifications for, like, the next 48 hours.
So, yeah, y'all have something really cool going there.
And love that you guys have been hosting these awesome kind of spaces as well, bringing Ordinals to the masses.
And it's really awesome to see.
So, thanks for coming up.
You're always welcome up here.
Jake, you got your hand up.
I did.
I'm here to derail the whole thing.
I'm just going to talk about the elephant in the room for today.
What do you guys think of the whole SEC situation that's happening?
And is it going to affect Ordinals?
And what do you guys think?
Yeah, so I'm not totally caught up on it, to be completely honest.
I need to – I'm going to go – Udi obviously mentioned it.
It sounds like finance is – SEC is bringing in action against finance in the U.S., Jake.
Is that –
Yes, but I don't know if it's just for the U.S. entities.
Yeah, look, I am not equipped enough to speak on this right now.
Trevor, I don't know if you're up to date.
Yeah, I'd have to look into it more.
But, I mean, it doesn't seem to me like a huge thing.
I mean, finance is like the wealthiest company in the space.
I mean, they have – like, you know, the SEC is not going to be able to bankrupt, you know,
finance, you know what I'm saying, no matter what things that they did wrong.
I mean, they're also a foreign company.
You know, they could slap them on the wrist.
Like, you know, I would – I'd have to look a lot more into it.
I'm also not a specialist, but my sense is it's, you know, a hiccup for them,
considering how big they are and how big their balance sheet is, et cetera.
Yeah, I mean, from the little I'm just looking at right now, it's like we saw Coinbase get a Wells notice,
which is basically this kind of warning saying we might sue you if you don't remove these, like, certain tokens.
Obviously, Gary is seeming to come down with the stance that a lot of the tokens in the crypto space are actually securities.
And, of course, that means they would fall under the SEC's regulatory framework.
And he is basically saying these things as securities are not complying with that regulatory framework outlined by the SEC in the United States.
And, therefore, like, Coinbase needs to remove a bunch of those tokens.
Of course, you famously won't tell Coinbase what those tokens are.
You know, this is – I think we – I was on a space, maybe some space yesterday where we were talking about negotiating.
And it's like, you know, when you negotiate, you don't come in and say, hey, this is exactly what I want.
And please do exactly this.
And this is going to be a great handshake.
And we'll kind of move on with our lives because you're obviously going to do exactly what I want.
The reality is you come in super strong to a negotiation, right?
You make the most polarizing stance possible.
You plant your flag.
And then you basically come to some sort of compromise through negotiations.
And what you actually wanted was the thing in the middle.
But that's obviously not where you start.
So, I'm sure, like, my guess is this is what the SEC is doing.
They're, you know, doing this Wells notice to Coinbase, not telling them what, you know, tokens they believe are securities.
They are – it looks like suing Binance.
Again, I don't know.
Maybe they've listed specific tokens.
Maybe they haven't.
I, again, haven't looked into it enough to know.
But, yeah, they're basically coming down with the stance that, like, we do believe some of these things should be regulated.
And they're not going to tell you exactly what they want, right, because that would be poor negotiating.
So, they're just going to come in and sue and give Wells notices.
And probably at some point in time over the next year, this will probably settle out.
And both sides will probably have to have some sort of compromise in the middle.
And it depends on, you know, I don't know exactly.
It's impossible to get into someone's head when they're negotiating.
There's, like, an entire art to this.
But, you know, Gary probably secretly has some, you know, thing that he wants in his head.
And he is, you know, strategically negotiating to, you know, strategically making moves to get to that point.
And, like, that is what you're watching play out.
So, and that's kind of the framework how I would think about this.
It's very much a large kind of game theory type negotiation that will play out over the next maybe year or maybe two years.
Yeah, I think Gary's in more trouble than Binance, man.
I think Gary's in a lot of trouble.
He made a lot of mistakes this past year.
And it's not looking good for Gary.
So, you know, and I do expect, you know, the current administration has not set themselves up in a good way.
And especially in this industry, like, a lot of people are super unhappy with the current administration
and their attempts to implement capital controls on the space and clamping down on people's, you know, freedoms and liberties and banking options, etc.
So, you know, whenever there's a regime change as well, like, you know, these type of things can change hands.
And, yeah, I mean, again, Binance is a, you know, like a $100 billion plus company.
I mean, I don't know if they're, I don't think it's, the market cap is public.
But, you know, they have massive balance sheet and they have 100 million users a month.
So, this is not a, you know, this is not a company that the SEC is going to necessarily.
And they're not even a U.S. company, you know, so.
Yep. Yeah.
I mean, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I think, I do agree, like, Binance will not be going away because it got a lawsuit from the SEC.
It will be interesting to see how it impacts, you know, consumers in the United States.
And, yeah, like, again, ultimately, I think this is all negotiations.
People are basically posturing and planting their flags.
And we're going to see, you know, probably complex set of negotiations happen somewhat behind closed doors and somewhat in the public sentiment over the next year.
I do think by taking the stance that he's doing and by prior actions, we definitely, it's kind of a coin flip whether we're going to see regime change at the SEC over the next year or so,
which obviously would change the entire situation with this as well.
It's honestly a little bit unclear how things will unfold.
But, like, the most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that the kind of parties come to a spot in the middle.
And there is some sort of, like, middle ground type compromise where we land maybe a year from now.
What that is, obviously, I can't say for sure.
And, you know, obviously, being in crypto, I'm kind of hoping that, you know, Gary doesn't do too hot in this situation.
But we will find out.
Obviously, these are smart people.
Like, I would not underestimate some of these people.
They are – this is political games and stuff being played now.
And, you know, there is a large incentive alignment for the United States to not have alternative currencies to the U.S. dollar being used by U.S. citizens.
Tendi, what's up, dude?
Welcome back to The Ordinal Show.
Ribbit.
Ribbit, ribbit, ribbit.
Thank you guys for having me up as usual.
I just wanted to touch on that Binance topic.
I only have one thing, really, to say in regards to that.
Faux.
Faux, faux, faux.
Sorry, I missed that.
Is that some sort of inside joke or, Trevor, do you want to explain that to me?
You don't know Faux, Liel?
Faux.
I honestly do not, guys.
This is where I'm exposing myself probably.
It's okay, Leonides.
I have no idea either.
I'm assuming it's some sort of meme that's going around on Twitter right now.
Have you seen the meme of CZ with his four fingers up and it's just like, faux, anytime there's faux, just remember faux.
So, this is the first time they've tried this and it probably won't get that.
Boomer confirmed, Leo.
It's basically what you say the funds are soft, so faux.
Ah, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
So, I guess this is probably a good transition to our CZ segment.
Um, so I tweeted, tweeted, I think it was yesterday.
I don't know.
The days kind of blur together in Ordinal Land.
You're just like, oh, boi.
Yeah, yesterday.
Yesterday was when your, uh, your partnership with CZ was made public.
Correct.
That you have been, uh, backchanneling with him to let him know that he has so many, uh, uncommon sats in his wallet and that he better, uh, get out of bed and go, uh, grab those UTXOs before all of us get them.
So, uh, Leo, like, how do you, how do you live with yourself now?
Man, he's forced to finance uncommon sat monopoly.
Thank you, Leo.
Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely, uh, I'm definitely being called a bit of a sellout to the rare stat community.
Like, some of the rare stat owners aren't super happy with me.
Um, but look, I mean, guys, my kind of take here is rare stats were becoming, uh, like, a very popular topic, um, on Twitter.
Like, in my opinion, like, I talked to, um, uh, Nick from Buckscore and it's like the minor, the mining pools are now starting to extract their own commons.
To me, it's a matter of time.
Like, you know, CC is going to realize he's sitting on this like massive 1.66% stake of all uncommon sats.
And that's actually just in the Binance cold storage wallet.
So, um, the point I would make is that wallet actually didn't reference the other wallets.
So everybody be quiet about that.
He's got a bunch of hot wallets with a ton of uncommon sats as well.
So I only referenced the, I only referenced the Binance cold storage wallet, which you, uh, if you know how, like, the rare stat hunting works, uh, you're not going to be able to withdraw, uh, those uncommon sats from that wallet.
So to me, it was kind of like a bit of a mute point.
Like you weren't going to get access to these anyways, but yeah, it's like, look, you know, one way or another, you know, CC was going to realize that he, he controls this like large, uh, percentage of the uncommon sat market.
It's specifically in this cold storage wallet, there is about $7 billion worth of Bitcoin.
I think it's like 24 trillion sats, 12,394 of them are uncommon and three of them are rare.
And I basically tweeted out, I was like, uh, definitely an engagement farm, by the way.
I was like, do you think CZ Binance should describe a 10k PFP ordinal selection all on uncommon sats and then give a whitelist to everyone who engages with this tweet, engage with this tweet.
So I fired that off like late at night, uh, just kind of a fun engagement farm.
Like you guys know, I try to balance my like long, uh, kind of, uh, boring threads about like random kind of technical or collectible stuff with some like kind of more fun type engagement farming.
And everybody was replying to it.
Like Leonidas, like this is the biggest engagement farm ever.
Like there's absolutely no way like CZ is going to do this.
Like, what are you talking about?
Um, I wake up the next morning to CZ replied to the tweet with like the little eye emoji and, uh, yeah, basically that was it.
I mean, I'm like, I'm not going to try, I'm not going to try to like feed into this too much and like joke that, you know, I'm, I'm talking to CZ about this stuff.
Like I just genuinely, like this was me manifesting.
And I even replied to someone the night before I was like, if you, uh, a wise person once said, if you want to see something happen, tweet about it.
And, you know, you can tweet things into existence.
I like actually genuinely believe that.
Uh, and now CZ kind of knows that he, he controls, he's, he's a large player in the rare stat market.
And I do honestly think it would be like pretty, pretty sick if, uh, you know, for their new marketplace for, for ordinal inscriptions that they're launching the Binance NFT marketplace.
If they, uh, cause they, they do like desperately want that NFT marketplace to kind of, uh, you know, do well.
It's been like, to be, I think it's, it's not a secret that like Binance NFT marketplace isn't where we're all trading NFTs.
So like, it's been struggling a bit.
It's a new player on the scene.
Um, in my opinion, because of that, I could definitely see CZ to kind of, uh, coincide with that launch.
This is my like theory, at least when I tweeted it, I was like, CZ, you know, wants that product to do well.
It's one of their products.
It's maybe like underperforming, underperforming a little newer.
Binance does want to be a player in the NFT, like ordinal space.
If they, if CZ was to extract 10,000 uncommon stats and inscribe a 10 K PFP ordinals collection
on it, to me, that's like massive, uh, just like attention and excitement around their
new ordinals marketplace.
So I'm, I'm almost viewing it.
Like if I was CZ, this is like the, the playbook that I would use.
Like I would do a 10 K PFP collection on those all, all on 10,000 uncommon stats and have
a big launch coinciding with the announcement or, uh, the go live for their ordinals on their
marketplace.
Right.
And that's like, look, again, I'm just tweeting this stuff.
Like it's a random idea.
I had CZ replied, we'll see what happens, but I think it would be pretty cool.
And, uh, kind of a neat thing for the rare stat market to, uh, similar to how Yuga kind of
came in and like, I think it's funny that like Yuga's inscriptions are now trading like
lower than like, uh, like, you know, lower than like Nolish's collection.
Like, I think that's pretty funny.
Um, but yeah, it's like, you know, we, we could definitely see it be a bit of a catalyzing
moment for the kind of rare stat stuff.
Like inscriptions were low inscription numbers and stuff for the meta back in February.
And I think the meta now is very much this rare stat stuff.
And that's like already starting to play out.
And Yuga came in and really validated that market.
Like they just have obviously a large, a large name.
And when they came in and said, we're going to do an ordinal inscription collection that,
you know, had pretty profound effects as far as just like, now you kind of get this group
of people paying attention.
And it started like just another one of those mini onboarding waves.
And I could definitely see, you know, CZ, um, there's this new meta around rare stats
and I could see CZ releasing a collection on that being, uh, one of those kinds of catalyzing
moments.
Right.
So I'm, I'm just excited to onboard people, including CZ, even if he's like, you know,
this like rare stat whale.
Um, but yeah, it's like, you know, you can like, you can like that he holds these stats.
You can not like them, you know, that he holds these stats.
In my opinion, a hundred percent, he was going to realize he held these stats because they're
in a cold storage wallet.
So it's not like we were going to like slip these out, um, secretly.
So no matter what, he was going to probably realize this and extract these.
And I'm just exacerbating the process because I like that phone on Twitter.
Um, yeah.
Trevor.
Yeah.
You guys will see.
We'll see Leo announced next week.
He's now the head of ordinals at Binance.
Um, but no, seriously.
Um, I mean, great work on that Leo and engaging.
Dude, that would be amazing.
FYI.
Yeah.
No, I mean, Leo, do it.
I mean, you know what?
We support you.
Just be clear, guys.
We are talking complete hypotheticals.
Okay.
Like I'm zero affiliation with Binance.
Like I would love it if CZ followed me.
Shout out to CZ.
I'm surprised he didn't follow you after that.
Yeah.
Um, man, the man, obviously he's not going to follow him, you know, before they launch
it, man.
He is in his DMs, you know, he's advising him on the collection.
Come on.
Of course he's not going to follow him.
That's a great point.
That's a great point.
That's a great point.
Hang on guys.
I'm actually going to have to leave in about two minutes here.
I have a quick zoom call.
I need to hop on.
Just kidding.
Uh, go ahead, Trevor.
Yeah.
No, I mean, just bring CZ on the show.
Let's just get this out in the open.
Now let's reveal your relationship with CZ and, and, you know, let's get him on the
show.
Um, so, I mean, that was, that was, that was great, Leo.
And I do agree that, um, the exchanges, I mean, they, they probably already clued into
Right.
I mean, um, you know, um, you know, and I think that the exchanges and miners are definitely
once they catch up, they're going to, they're going to monopolize the rare, all the rare
sats coming forward.
Luckily, um, I think that the, um, a good, a good amount of rare sats are already out there.
Um, I think, so the uncommon sats, those will keep going.
Um, I actually saw a great, um, thread on it.
I like how many rare sats there's going to be and like how many there already are in terms
of percent of the supply.
But the, um, uncommon sats will keep, um, we'll keep going out there.
I think maybe we're until, I think it's until 2140 when, um, the Coinbase reward goes to zero.
So actually a lot of them are in the future.
Uh, the Coinbase reward goes to zero in 2140.
So every four years until then, there's going to be a, um, the, the, the mythic sat is like
the first of the first block, the legendary, let me look this up.
Anyway, I pinned a top to the, I pinned to the top, a tweet thread that I sent out to
explain what the rare sats are all about.
There's different types of rare sats.
Um, there's the Casey Rodimer rarity index, which we're talking about in terms of, there's
a, a fairly like, uh, uh, uh, even distribution of probabilities in terms, in terms of like
mythic, legendary, epic, rare, uh, uncommon, et cetera.
That's a really great and logical one that I think is a base case.
When people talk about uncommons, they're looking at the Casey Rodimer, um, index.
And so, uh, a, um, a mythic sat, the mythic sat is the first sat of the Genesis block,
the first Satoshi ever created.
It is unspendable, unattainable because Satoshi made the first block unspendable.
So it's literally, there will never, no one can ever own the first mythic sat.
It's one in 2.1 quadrillion.
Uh, the first, it's the first side of the Genesis block and it's unspendable, unattainable.
And that's in the code.
I apparently, I guess how Satoshi made, it's not even in Satoshi's wallet.
Then there's a legendary sets, which is the first set of each cycle.
So every six havings, something magical happens, happens, the having and the difficulty and
adjustment coincide.
That is called the cycle.
It's, uh, and it's, it's called a conjunction.
And the time period between the conjunctions is a cycle.
So there's a conjunction.
I never heard of that before.
That's some real Bitcoin developer nerd stuff right there.
And so it'll happen every 24 years.
So the first, uh, conjunction will happen in 2032.
We haven't even had a conjunction yet.
It's the first six cycles.
So, um, there is, uh, you know, these are, there's going to be several of these.
They're basically not, it's not one of one, like one in 2.1 quadrillion, but maybe, but
it's one in 393 trillion.
So I think there's four, four or five of these legendary sets that will exist.
Miners are definitely going to get that one by that time.
I mean, in, in, um, in nine years from now, they bet they're going to be clued in.
They're going to be, the miners are going to go ham on that block for sure.
Uh, if they can, if they can predict when it's going to be, then the epic, uh, sats are the
first out of every, uh, having event or the first of each, uh, having epoch.
So that is every four years.
Um, the first satoshi in the having is an epic sat.
Um, so we have only had, you know, since 20, um, 2000, 2009.
And I think it was 2012 was the first one.
Then 2016 and 2020, there's only four of those sats in existence.
Now it'll be every four years until they're no, until sats are not issued from blocks anymore,
which will be 2140.
So there's four of those.
All the, all the rest of those are going to be again, claimed by, claimed by minors, probably.
Um, then there's going to be, uh, the rare sets, which are, um, every difficulty adjustment,
um, every 2016 blocks is about every two weeks.
I think it's also based on what the hash rate is.
So if the hash rate goes up or goes down significantly, the, um, difficulty adjustment adjusts.
And then the last one is the calm uncommon, which is the first of every block.
So, and these, the, the cool thing is that these are evenly spaced out over time, pretty
much, because even when there was 50,000 sats in the first Bitcoin blocks, there is still
only one, uh, uncommon sat per block.
So that means that the, the, the Casey Rottermer rarity index is evenly spaced throughout time,
which is, which is a cool way to look at it.
Vintage sats are just old sats in the first few blocks.
Um, and then, and for those, there's a lot more, right?
Because 50 Bitcoin per block is five, uh, 5 billion, um, uh, satoshis per block.
And so, you know, those first like few blocks in the first transaction of 10 Bitcoin and,
um, those vintage sats are going to be a lot more.
And then, so the, the third category, there's rare sats, vintage sats, third category is
just basically like historical transaction sats.
So these, this is a lot of room for creativity here.
Um, it may, it may also just be, you know, any type of, uh, historic, um, type of, um, connection.
So, you know, the, the 10, the, the 10, the 10, the 10,000 BTC spent for two pizzas are pizza
sats.
Um, the first transaction from Satoshi to Hal Finney are, um, Satoshi, uh, you know, first
transaction sats.
Also there's, um, there's like a unique numbers and things like that as well, I guess is the
fourth category for the third category.
I mean, both the third and fourth category have a lot of room for interpretation and creativity
and, you know, invention of narratives around these, you know, someone the other night was
talking about like, uh, like Taylor Swift sats.
So like any, any sat that was previously owned by Taylor Swift would be, uh, Swift sats.
And so, you know, you can come up with whatever, whatever you want.
We have also, um, I think OXBT bit got up here, did a great job in terms of using an uncommon
sat from 2014, the year that, uh, BitMEX was, uh, founded, uh, for the OXBT, uh, deploy.
Um, and so, you know, that's because OXBT stands for O for ordinal and XBT, the first perpetual
futures for Bitcoin, which was from BitMEX in, uh, in 2016.
But, um, 2014 is the year that BitMEX was founded.
So they used an uncommon sat from then.
So there's so many ways you can combine these into storytelling.
We did see, um, um, ordinal maxi business come out strong the other night.
And, uh, you know, ZK is DMing me.
He's like, yo, we just did this.
Please do not tell anyone.
Five minutes later, Leo's tweeting about it.
I'm like, ZK, if you, if you want me to tweet it, just tell me to tweet it, bro.
Don't tell me not to tweet it.
Cause I won't like, you know what I mean?
Like, you know, so why are you giving, why are you giving Leo the scoop here?
And, um, you know, the floor price for that is, is pretty ridiculous.
It's like what, two BTC for the OMB.
So we're definitely in a rare sets, uh, meta right now.
Um, Leo, what, what do you think?
Anything, anything to add?
Uh, don't fight a OMB like that.
I think we're already up to like three BTC, but, um, no, look, I think you guys, it's no
secret that like, obviously, uh, you know, Zach and I, uh, run or.io and like, we've
been pretty passionate about, you know, serving the kind of rare stat, um, use case for a while.
We came up with these attributes maybe like a month, month and a half ago now.
Um, which basically is just these like, kind of like symbols that we tack on to every inscription
that's on one of these interesting stats.
And we try to categorize them in a way that like can easily make sense to people.
There's like lots of different narratives, but like, we were like, we want to have like
this very clear thing where like, we slap on like a certain badge or symbol to inscriptions
that have this.
So like Trevor mentioned a bunch of them.
You've got uncommon rare epic from the Rottermore rarity index.
You have the vintage, you have the Nakamoto's.
Those are like stats owned by Satoshi.
You've got first transaction from the first transaction, palindrome.
These are stats where the numbers are the same forward as backwards.
Pizza stats from that 10,000 BTC, uh, transaction to buy a pizza back in May, 2010.
And actually like an hour ago, we just added two new, uh, attributes.
So, um, yeah, feel free to go have fun kind of clicking around, playing around with that,
seeing, uh, you know, just, just more layers of collectability, right?
It's to me, it's like the more, the more attributes we can add, you know, that are interesting.
Like we're just following, we're not like making these up.
Like we're just following what people are naturally choosing to collect and adding them.
And I would imagine we'll have, you know, in six months, we'll have like a hundred attributes.
And I think that's like really fun because it just adds like so many, uh, kind of cool
layers of collectability to this whole space.
Like to me, it's like, there's a ton of pizza sets, right?
Like 10,000 Bitcoins, there's a hundred million, uh, stats in a Bitcoin, you know, those aren't
necessarily rare by themselves, but if you actually look and you like filter by the pizza
attribute, you'll notice there's actually not like that many out of the, like, you know,
almost 11 million inscriptions, only like 2,600 of them are on pizza sets.
So it adds this like cool layer of collectability.
So like all your favorite collections, uh, you know, like, uh, Bitcoin punks, Bitcoin frogs,
they have these pizza sets in the collection that just randomly rivet that just randomly
got there.
And to me, that adds like this cool layer of collectability.
And we've already seen, you know, literally people went on org.io, like saw the pizza sets
and went and like, it literally like doubled the value of the, the asset that they bought.
So we're starting to see like people actually pay attention to this stuff.
And I think it's very, it's very cool.
I would say if you think of Bitcoin as digital gold and inscriptions as digital artifacts,
then rare stats are like digital diamonds.
Um, and, and that's just a very like interesting, uh, layer to this primitive where because of
the way Bitcoin works, our NFT protocol is fully on chain.
It has two pieces.
It has the inscription and the sat.
But I think people are finally waking up to the fact that you can also collect, there's
collectible layers on the sat side of things, not just on the inscription side of things,
which is super exciting, uh, to me.
Yeah.
Trevor.
Yeah.
I just want, I just want to add, um, people are asking for the, the password for the stamps,
uh, giveaway.
It's gold G O L D and then I'll, uh, I'll pass it over to you on.
Man.
And I didn't hear anybody asking for it, bro.
Who's asking?
Hey, I was asking for it.
You know, I'm playing.
I'm playing.
I'm playing.
No, I just wanted to say guys, um, basically, you know, just adding to this conversation about
rare sets, you know, like it, it makes me super happy to see this and not, you know,
because, you know, like, uh, you know, we have bags, whatever.
But I remember those conversations at the beginning that, uh, basically only the early
inscriptions matter, you know, and then we, you know, got into BRC twenties and everybody
was like, oh, okay.
So it's like sub 1 million, sub 5 million, sub 10 million, et cetera.
Like this thing with rare stats and like this new meta that we're seeing.
And even the fact that, you know, Leo, you mentioned that the Yuga Labs assets are actually
worth less than let's say some of the newish assets.
It's actually pretty interesting that you can really kind of understand that it doesn't
mean that you always have to be early in this space or like, you know, you have to be the
among the first hundred collectors to actually, you know, basically put your hands on something
that can be really valuable or that, you know, you can build some sort of lore around.
And, uh, I think this is just going to keep on happening, right?
Obviously the inscription number is just like one of the things that matter, but there is
probably a hundred other things that this space is going to come up with that you can
build collections around.
You can build some sort of scarcity around and, uh, it's just exciting, right?
Because there's always going to be kind of new ideas and, uh, new things that we can
So, uh, you know, I think it's just super important to kind of see this.
Yeah.
Excellent points there, Jan.
Um, I think it's very exciting that it's very exciting that as an artist, you can come
in here.
Like Nolish was an artist when he joined the space.
I think he had like 2000 followers or something had been an artist in the Ethereum world for
like over a year, working really hard, talented artists came to this space, basically studied
the actual primitive itself, like studied how he could use Bitcoin as a medium for his art.
And then like literally because he was clued in and paid attention to, uh, the kind of meta
around rare stats.
I think we've had him on the show many times to discuss this and I've gotten to have many
calls with him and consulted with him about this attributes on order.io.
He was, you know, putting in the work, right.
And paying attention to what's going on here and was able to create some like really interesting
collections that like, I believe the market cap of the three collections, like this artist
who has like 9,000 followers now created has a higher market cap than like you guys 12
fold drop.
Like to me, that is, you know, I'm not saying anything bad about 12 fold.
I actually hold 12 fold.
What I'm saying is that's a success story for like an artist.
And like, to me, that is a signal for an artist, like other artists that there is like a really
awesome opportunity here because it would have been unconceivable on Ethereum to be an artist
to like possibly compete with like the largest NFT brand in the space.
And like, we've literally seen that happen here.
Like that is super, uh, just a fascinating kind of development in my opinion.
And all, all you had to do was be here showing up, paying attention.
Like obviously Noel's just super smart and stuff as well.
And had to, you know, do some crazy stuff to hunt rare stats.
But other than that, he was paying attention to like, what's interesting about this protocol
and actually studying things at the protocol level.
And like, he's been very like, well, rewarded.
His work's been rewarded.
His holders have been rewarded because he put in that time.
And I think that opportunity is still here, right?
Like, you know, some of these collections were, you know, they weren't like all necessarily
early.
Some of them were really early, but some of them were like more like a month or two in.
So that opportunity is here for everyone.
And like, if you think like every time we hit 10,000 inscriptions, 100,000 inscriptions,
million inscriptions, 10 million inscriptions, people say, oh, it's over.
I was late.
You know, it's not, it's not, uh, there's nothing here for me anymore.
Every time it happens, you know, people say this and that is just like categorically not the
case, in my opinion.
Like we are still incredibly early.
Like the scale of Bitcoin is just completely bonkers.
And I think we're going to have like so many more metas and so many more, um, interesting
layers of collectability that if you're an artist, you can pay attention to.
And I like, you know, tweet about these things a lot and have like a long post I put out last
week about that.
Um, I think Jake, your hand was up and then Eddie, then Bob.
Uh, Hey Leo.
Uh, yeah.
Just talk about the Nance and the whole rare set and uncommon where we talked about the one
person and they hold on the cold.
Um, we have a space with, uh, Binance on Thursday and then frogs, me and Tendi have been invited
to go over there.
We're definitely going to talk about, uh, this uncommon stuff.
So, uh, you know, where they can literally launch a 10 K PFP if that, like we will mention
So if they take it well, so you never know what's going to happen.
So, uh, rivet, rivet, rivet, you know, Leo is going to be in CZ's ear, you know, we're
going to get Leo is going to be in his ear telling him what to say or foe.
Yeah.
Don't worry guys.
He's going to have an earpiece in and I'll be feeding him all the, all the right things
to say.
Um, jokes aside, CZ is like, honestly, CZ is, uh, yeah, I don't know.
I've grown to respect the guy kind of more and more.
He's, um, yeah, very, very sophisticated actor in this space.
And, um, you know, I think while I'm not, I don't want to say I'm not bullish on their
NFT, uh, project there in their NFT marketplace, I think it's just, there's not great historical
precedent for these large centralized exchanges, no matter how big they are creating these,
like the three biggest exchanges like Coinbase, FTX and Binance have all released NFT marketplaces
and they've all, uh, not just, they've just not performed super well for whatever reason.
So I'm, I'm just excited that CZ is excited about this stuff and I'm excited that, you
know, they're interested in BRC 20.
They just listed a ticker the other day.
Um, that's all super exciting to me.
So, you know, the, the NFT kind of aspect, this collection idea of the uncommon stats aspect,
these are all just like pieces of the puzzle ever since I think it was, uh, Jan, I think
you were at the conference in Hong Kong where CZ kind of famously said, the thing I'm like
most excited about is NFTs in Bitcoin.
Ever since that happened, I was like, dude, this guy, uh, this guy's activated.
Like we activated CZ a month later, we activated sailor and, uh, we're going to see these guys.
Um, I really do think like billionaires when they come out and like publicly talk, very excited
about things.
I think you're going to see them actually like make moves, uh, over the, like, they're,
they're not the fastest to move, but you will see them make moves over like the next, you
know, months and years.
And that's like super excited that like these guys are, uh, you know, as Trevor kind of
coined the term act, have been active.
Um, Eddie, welcome to the ordinal show, by the way.
Yo, I'm excited to get a chance to chat with you guys.
Finally.
Um, yeah.
And also first things first, please don't mention, uh, OMBs.
They're, they're my biggest pain point since, uh, since entering the ordinals market, I put
out an open offer for any OMB, any, like literally anything that I would buy it for 0.3 at when
the floor was 0.33, I woke up to the floor at 0.8.
I was like, ah, it should retrace.
Never did.
So, uh, please don't mention them.
All I, all I hear is pain.
You know, I was talking on Saturday with Bicot and I think it's just fascinating.
The, uh, the rarity of the discussion that we talk about here, a lot of the rarity discussion
here is in one way or another numerically based or numerically generated, um, or at least
like historic precedent.
Whereas on Ethereum, um, and, and the markets that I'm, I'm more accustomed to a lot of the,
uh, a lot of the current rarity discussion centers about, uh, around a mix of both rarity,
right?
Like, you know, you do want to have, whether it's a one of one or a top 500 or top 5% rarity
type token, but also heavily on aesthetics, especially in the, um, you know, if you're
talking about PFPs and stuff like that, right.
Especially for like my seal, my seal isn't necessarily the rarest, but I do like, I personally
thought that the, uh, the sombrero with the bow tie made it look super cute.
So like, it's a fascinating dichotomy of discussion where a lot of the discussion as pertains to
ordinals right now is heavily focused on historical provenance as well as, you know, just actual
ordinal theory.
Whereas on E, it has, it has increasingly transitioned over the course of the past year and a half,
two years to more of an aesthetic thing.
So it's fascinating to me, like where those things lie, I'm curious if that transition
might ever come with Bitcoin or not, because in fairness, there are two different cultures
and two different communities.
So I don't know, I just wanted to kind of pose that as an open thought and if that stirs
conversation, great, but if not, I don't know, it's just something I've like noticed and
find fascinating.
Yeah.
Part of that is an interesting observation.
I think part of that has to do with, you know, at least early on and we're like making
great strides here, but early on, like the biggest criticism of ordinals is like people
are literally uploading far MP3s and like just what there's lots of like, I would just consider
like low quality copy pasta type art on ordinals.
And because of that, like we weren't going to focus on necessarily, you know, the art visual
side yet.
Like, um, so we, we chose to focus on these other things, right.
Instead.
And I think as more artists get on board into the space, like for example, if X copy comes
and drops a one of one over here, like, you know, people are going to start having that
conversation more about the aesthetics and more about the art.
And again, we're starting to kind of see that with some more artists, but yeah, at least,
at least early on, I think that probably was a big part of the reason.
It's like, we guys, we can't pay attention to the fact that like we're buying copy pasta
things, so we're going to pay attention to these other layers because that is, uh, like
what's going to make more sense to like focus on.
And I also think, uh, there's just a culture of like, I think Ethereum has a large cohort
of collectors, but maybe even has, uh, I don't know, larger, but also a very large cohort of
flippers and traders.
And over here, you see a lot of just like the kind of nerdy, like historical NFT kind
of collecting culture that was like this niche in the Ethereum space.
Like to me, the Ordinal collector vibe is more like that than it was like the, the kind
of flipper, uh, you know, what's up bro kind of vibes in some of the like, uh, you know,
Ethereum communities.
So to me, that's like really cool.
I think that's super awesome that we have this collector mentality just like thriving
on Bitcoin.
So, yeah, I think, uh, the, the other layer of that is the actual protocol just being fully
on chain gives you like these interesting immutable things that you can collect.
Like, again, if you hold, if you hold an NFT on Ethereum that like has unfrozen metadata
or, um, you know, the file is on IPFS or there's like these things like this, nobody's
going to pay attention to like the file size, right?
That wouldn't make sense to pay attention to, but because everything's on chain, like
we have this like, you know, four mega class where there's four, four megas out of the
10 million inscriptions.
These things are probably worth like at least six figures.
These are, there's just all these different layers of collectability that because the
primitive for the NFTs on Bitcoin is fully on chain, it gives collectors all these like
interesting things to kind of dive into because all you have to do is look at the blockchain.
And also you don't have to come to like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The other real interesting thing to me is because Casey Rudimer and his team literally
made part of the, uh, the rarity scale, like that's as a, as if Vitalik himself said, here's
what make your NFTs more or less rare, which is kind of nuts.
And I mean, I will say like, I think for that reason alone, there will always be a massive
sub community that strongly values just the basic, um, numerical or ordinal based rarity
structure as implement or as described and outlined by Casey and his team because he
made the protocol, but like that, that's pretty, that's pretty baseline important, at least
for me.
I think like, I think for a lot of people it will retain that, you know, going forward.
Yep.
That's another excellent point, Eddie.
I totally agree with that.
I think anytime the creator, you know, sort of establishes something or even bakes it into
the protocol, that is definitely some, that, that is something you should probably pay attention
Um, excellent points there.
Yeah.
Bob, what's up?
Yeah.
Hey Leo.
So, uh, so I have, uh, I've, I've, I've been trying to calculate the total supply for the
Rottermore rarity index category.
So uncommon, rare, epic, legendary, mythic, and, uh, the documentation doesn't state whether
the rarity categories are mutually exclusive or not.
So what I mean by that is an uncommon is the first set in a block, but a rare is also the
first set in a block, but it's in, in addition to that, it's the first block in a difficulty
adjustment period.
So when you have a Satoshi that is rare, is it also an uncommon?
Is it a rare?
I would assume that it's mutually exclusive then by definition now.
Yeah.
But Casey had a blog post where he stated the total number of uncommons and the, he stated
the total of, uh, of uncommons as if they were not mutually exclusive.
He stated the total number of uncommons, but it was really him just stating the number of
first sets in a block that there are, but he didn't subtract out like the rares and the
epics and the legendaries and the mythics.
And so I have no idea, you know, which direction to go here.
Um, I'm curious if anyone, if anyone knows.
So it's ultimately, here's the deal.
I, I agree that probably he needs to ask Casey what he thought.
Like, I think it could go either way at the end of the day, it only matters really for
calculating that total number.
I don't think anybody who holds like an Epic, uh, Sat is super worried about, you know, getting
the uncommon label on their epics.
Um, so I'm not sure like practically how much it matters, but yeah, I agree.
It would, it would be nice to know so that we could have like kind of a definitive consensus
on what the total number of these, like what the total supply is, even if it's like shifting
only by a hundred, uh, I think, I think that'd be helpful.
It's an excellent point.
Yeah.
Agreed.
Paches, what's up?
Hey, sorry.
Earlier I was like rugging hard.
I don't know if you ever called me, but you kicked me down, which was a good call.
Um, yeah, I'm, I'm a, I'm a newer, you know, I, I guess like my, my PFP was inscribed
sub 400 K.
So like, um, I was interested by the technology pretty early.
Um, I really think there's an insane amount of legs on it, but like that exact conversation,
I, I, I'm, I'm like, I feel like I'm an outsider coming in.
Cause like over the last two weeks is when I've really got to start pulling the ordinal
thread hard.
Um, which is probably true for a lot of people, but the, the ideology is, is, is ordinals meant
to be a kind of like a, like a gated community of value propositions that are based on scarcity
or is the idea of ordinals to become an extremely functional layer to dap layer?
And, and with that, like if, if all inscriptions are always on NFTs and that's the only way
NFTs and ordinals exist, you lose the ability to have dynamic NFTs, which you see as a benefit.
Um, you lose the ability to have, uh, really complex things like music or video because
everything is restricted to four megabytes.
So is, is the idea and ideology of ordinals that the inscription on chain is paramount and
the foundational element of everything, which is an acceptance of the restriction of the
flexibility and utility for ordinals or I, you know, coming from, from Hedera in my background,
to me, it would make sense to have like, you have the inscription class.
Number one, this is inscribed on blockchain immutable forever.
And then there's a subclass of ordinals that is, are we even IPFS links that go out to
a standardized metadata structure that allow, you know, ordinals to become real estate contracts
and music NFTs and movies that are two gigs, uh, and 3d, 3d files that can go into a metaverse.
Because if the foundational elements is everything has to be inscribed, then this is sort of like
Bitcoin, just a gold standard.
You hold it, it goes up because people want it.
And that that's that there isn't a high amount of ability to then ever inject utility if the
requirement must be below four megabytes of data.
So this is more of an open question because again, I'm more and I'm just here to, yeah,
it's an excellent point.
I think ultimately the way I would look at it is, yes, the piece of the primitive that you
can put on chain is capped at four megabytes.
And unless you're a minor, it's going to be like 400 kilobytes.
And that obviously does have some restrictions.
I would argue that those restrictions, uh, because that box space is so valuable, actually,
like it increases the value of the people of the people's inscriptions that do like get
inscribed in that finite box space.
But yeah, as far as like, you know, I don't think the protocol necessarily needs to be flexible to
IPFS.
Like you can right now, like fairly easily create a protocol on top of ordinals,
a standard that says, Hey, I'm going to link to this IPFS.
Like I'm going to just inscribe a JSON with text and it's going to have an IPFS link in it.
And if you can convince people to buy that in the market has appetite for that,
like that can become a thing. Like, absolutely. That can become a thing. Like
this is very much like the market's going to decide these things. I don't necessarily think
it has to be decided at like a top down protocol level type thing. And we're actually already
seeing experiments like that happening. None of them have like really picked up too much traction
just because the market has at least for now voted that it really likes the on chain aspect.
Like that's a pitch that the market, you know, values a lot. But if we see fees go up to a thousand
sat per V bite, I could see, you know, maybe there's a group of people who, you know,
are fine, you know, inscribing at the current fees, but wouldn't be fine inscribing then.
And maybe you see more interest in like the off chain stuff. But at least for now, like the fact
that it's fully on chain, the value you get from paying those fees is greater than the cost of
those fees. So like, it's kind of a no brainer to, you know, inscribe fully on chain right now.
Right. Yeah. No, I appreciate that answer. And that's in, you know, I, I, uh, been building
in Web3 for about two years, I'm 15 years an engineer. Um, and I really, my focus and I think
my, my biggest skill set that I could bring to ordinals is, uh, standardization and, uh, execution
of process because like ordinals is this crazy experiment. Like, if you really think about
what ordinals is, it is a test in production that has a half a billion dollars in it. Like
the, the, the software that was tweeted out for a BRC 20 token has a market cap of 500 million
dollars. And that was a tweet. There was no process. There were no other engineers that
went in. They just kind of like built this proof of concept. There was one person that did it.
Everyone jumped on board. And now because of the momentum, it's a standard, but there isn't a
process to standardize. And without that last part, like what you're saying, you're like, well,
people can just like kind of do it. And if the market dictates, that's great that that works. I
think like in this initial experiment that's been going on, but as time progresses without a solid
foundational element of like BRC 30 has been proposed, how does that get substantially? Did
people just like add it? Now you have fragmented markets that say, well, BRC 30 is not good enough.
We changed it a little bit. And so you'll have this fragmentation in
the market based on what an engineer thinks is best. And then they put it out and see if people,
you know, patronize it. But the problem is that it could be completely different than what other
people are doing. The wallets now have to, there's no standard to go to. So they have to just like do
it market by market that can change. So without that underlining acceptance of, hey, there's a new,
and I just pinned it to the top, but I, I did a, um, uh, get, can I, can I jump in really quickly?
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I'm not trying to...
So, so Ord Protocol, I'm quite familiar with what's going on with the team. And actually,
on Wednesday, they're doing a spaces to actually address what you're talking about with the standards.
And earlier in this, um, when Leo was talking about the point, the, the recent release of Ord Protocol,
I mentioned one of the important notes in this release, which actually sets the, basically,
the Ord Protocol standard is pretty clear now with the recent release. Basically, the defining what
the Ordinal Theory is, that was always clear. The second one was defining what's in the description.
That's what this curse inscription and these things, that's coming to pretty good clarity.
And the third point was how do you map the inscription to an Ordinal? And what I mentioned in this, um,
this phase release, it says very clearly how you map that, which is an inscription is in an input.
And that same input, the first sat in that, um, input is the Ordinal that you map the inscription to.
So that very clearly defines actually the whole Ordinal's Protocol right now.
And then the other things are what people want to build on top, right?
So then that's pretty much open to everyone to experiment, which is the great thing about this.
So as long as we have very clear, you know, what is Ordinal's Protocol, um, you know, we have that.
But there's not, there's not a process, right?
The process also we're going to talk about on Wednesday. So, so, you know, have some patients on Wednesday,
they're going to present basically the process, which is similar to how, you know,
Bitcoin and Ethereum have been doing that, this improvement process.
So, so it's coming first. They have to define what the protocol is, right?
That, that was unclear until basically this release that came out yesterday, which is really, really great.
And that's, you know, we'll see like bundling and parent child and collections.
All these things are coming and those will be through this process of basically OIP, you know,
and, and so, yeah, Wednesday, I think that'll be extended spaces or, or, yeah, very early.
And Raph and Aaron and others will, we'll be talking about that.
Yeah, no, I mean, like, that's, that's really good information. I appreciate that.
I've been going through the discord and talking to order orderly or ordinarily.
Um, it's this handle. Uh, but yeah, I'm just trying to get caught up on like what the process is.
Cause like BRC 20 was adopted through a Twitter thread and like going through the GitHub,
there is no, um, there was no proposal for a standardization process.
So I did that and I pinned it up top. Um, and maybe I'm putting cart.
Well, yeah, I mean, I'm putting a cart ahead of horse.
I didn't know that they were announcing things on Wednesday.
I saw version 0.6 come out, um, blessed and cursed inscriptions, negative inscriptions.
Very interesting, um, how they're not upsetting the regular indexed inscription number
while also introducing ability to have non indexed inscriptions from the past still exist.
It's like, it was a really smart way to kind of get around that.
Um, but yeah, the, the, the, they're neat.
Like I, I'm really excited to hear that.
I'm definitely going to tune in and I really appreciate the builders in ordinals,
how they've done so much so far with very little standardization, but they,
there's coordination enough that people are like, okay, well,
we believe Unisat's indexer and the experts made their own.
Um, but these are, these are truth.
So, uh, I'm really happy to hear that the space is getting more standardized.
And again, I think that's, that's where I would like to sit or to help, um, build up
a solid foundation.
Cause last thing I would want to see is just kind of development in all directions.
And I've seen that in open source projects where it's just so fragmented.
It's very difficult.
Like I want to make a market.
Okay.
What's a BRC 20 token.
And then if I have a different idea, okay, now a wallet has to like integrate too.
And then just, you know, you pull that thread, it gets very unmanageable.
So, uh, do you have like a link or anything you could throw up in the, for,
for where their talk is or the Twitter space?
Um, so I could definitely set my reminder for that.
Yeah, we will, I'll find it for you really quick and get that up there.
Um, definitely I'll be tuning into that.
And I think, um, it's awesome that they're kind of hosting these like community Twitter
spaces to engage, uh, with the rest of the space.
Like, cause you know, otherwise, like you have this kind of feeling that things are
happening behind closed doors.
And like, that's obviously like not what these guys are trying to do.
They very much, uh, want to kind of communicate in the open.
Um, and I think these Twitter spaces and our awesome, awesome way to do that.
Um, no, may, uh, what's up?
How's it going?
Hey, what's up guys?
Nice to be here.
Amazing space.
Ordinal shows the best starting from February, just, you know, rock and rolling.
Really good.
Um, just want to say it's a happy birthday of know me tomorrow.
Everyone who wants to join, I will be in the space all day.
Just say hi.
And just like, uh, would love to meet you.
Uh, touching on the point of education, I really, you know, like move forward this space
because like I was looking into how to build it more decentralized.
And I want to put like all the information that we have right now about orders, about sets,
about, you know, like all the topics just in the library.
And I kind of know how to do that already.
I put like all the technical things together, like how to build it.
I have a couple of developers.
So, and then like, I envision it as an application on the phone.
For example, it's like Twitter.
It's really like user friendly where you can go and just like look all the information needed.
And maybe some parts can be like, you can pay for this with the sets, with the, with lighting.
So that people, you know, like we'll get more value when they pay for some information,
but also like maybe 80% would be open.
So everyone who's interested really like participate in that.
I invite you to just follow me and hit medium, because I think that's,
this is what we need right now.
And that's really needed to be built.
Awesome.
And yet for people who don't know, Nomi was one of the winners of the Bitcoin hackathon
that we had announced the winners.
We announced the winners of that on the show back in March, I believe.
So we'll have you coming back up here and kind of giving updates on that.
Good things.
You want to jump in this conversation?
Yeah, I, first of all, I love that people like patches are coming in and really starting to,
you know, basically just ask good questions.
I think these are, these are very reasonable questions.
And, you know, like Danny was saying, we've all been incredibly supportive, patient.
You know, we, we understand that the Ordinals team has done a lot with not a lot of resources.
And, you know, it's just, I think it's important that we all as a, as a community, as a, as an industry,
we support these folks, you know, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing as a company on Bitcoin.
And, and none of us, you know, as collectors, as builders, as just people who are enthusiasts
about this, we wouldn't be talking about this stuff if it wasn't for them.
So, but I do appreciate really, I do patches sort of like coming in and just asking questions.
He's also, I think, got a, a GitHub, not a repo.
Um, I forget what the term is, but he's written up some, some, some good like documentation
about what he's talking about.
So, um, patches, you should definitely share that like down in the comments so people can
check that out.
But I want to just mention, um, you said, I think you were asking about interactivity
or dynamic NFTs.
And, um, you know, we actually already achieved this back in February with our dimensions collection.
So, um, I posted up at the top there, um, people can check it out.
There's a video of one of our artists sort of explaining how this works.
Um, basically you can use keyboard to, uh, to, to kind of like interact with, um, the 3d
generative artifacts.
So there's a lot coming, um, you know, you can basically, um, the, when you're putting,
when you're inscribing, you're just inscribing files and the vast majority of inscriptions
right now are just, they're just JSON files.
Um, there's also image.
I think there's some video, but what you really are going to get into, um, some interesting stuff
is when you start to use code.
And that's what we've been focused on from the very beginning.
So I think there's a lot coming, um, you know, once we kind of talk about some of the stuff
that we've got come in as well.
Um, and other people are starting to, to think about this, um, from a different perspective
of just putting one, one image per inscription.
So if it's okay, I just want to follow up on that.
You're inscribing like code directly to Bitcoin that you can then interact with interactively
as an NFT.
That's fricking amazingly cool.
Yep.
Yep.
That's what, uh, that's what Danny and our team did.
So it's, um, it's, it's truly revolutionary.
Um, there's there, I don't think there's anything that existed on Bitcoin prior to, um, either
our Genesis collection or dimensions collection, which both were inscribed in February.
So, um, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff coming.
These upgrades are going to make a lot of stuff possible that wasn't possible before.
And, uh, we're, we are super excited about it.
Yeah.
And like, that's exactly like, because of the momentum and mindshare ordinals have with
like great engineers, like your team and the liquidity that doesn't really exist on like
sub chains.
Like I'm, I'm from Hedera and there's just not, there ain't $500 million.
I'll tell you that.
So the ability for you to come here and innovate on the layer one that started all of the layer
ones really, um, I think is, is the excitement that everyone feels and why everyone has an
orange PFP and to, to your point or like to, you know, laddering back up to my point where
if there is code being written onto inscriptions that then can be interactive, that should be
a standard.
So people can start doing that in different ways and that there's an ability to have a
point of truth where one platform can have interactive code NFTs and then anyone can go in
there and, um, someone has to do it first, propose the standard, but, um, it would be
really excited for Wednesday where there's hopefully a process that's outlined.
And then, you know, I think the other thing that would, would be really helpful is if there
is a secondary, uh, you know, if there is a linking out to JSON or just putting the JSON in
to have more than just an inscription number and an image data to have an actual standardized, uh,
metadata, JSON layer, um, to replicate either Ethereum or, you know, Tezo, Solana,
just a billion of them.
Um, but the ability to do that would, I think, again, just spark a lot of innovation where
it's kind of daunting to come to ordinals when you're an engineer and you see this giant
orange wall and you're not really sure how to interact with it.
But if there's a doc set that says, these are the specific ways to do image, you know, NFTs,
these are the specific ways is the metadata standard.
This is how you do a dynamic, like all of that will also ease adoption of people that are
like excited about what's happening, but don't exactly know where to start engineering.
So there's, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
I mean, I would just say like, you know, this is so new.
Um, and so it is going to take some time.
Like you can't, you can't get, uh, an entire industry to develop all the things that you need
right away.
I mean, it's just kind of, it's just how it happens.
Like, like Casey and his team released this, um, not knowing the adoption rate that was going
to occur.
And, um, you know, like there's a lot of great people that are already working on this stuff.
It's, it's definitely something that's been in work.
Um, so yeah, I definitely, you know, uh, encourage you to kind of take a look at
the work that's being done and, um, you know, engage wherever you can.
Yeah, I would say go check out the GitHub patches.
It's like, literally there's an initiative for exactly what you're describing that like hundreds
of hours have gotten to.
It's like, go, go jump in that conversation and like, you know, help guide that, guide
that initiative.
Cause it's like, nobody's going to disagree with you that we need a metadata layer and
collection provenance.
Right.
For sure.
Yeah.
I have two discussion topics that popped up in the GitHub and then I looked over, um,
last couple of days, but, uh, definitely.
Yeah.
Happy, happy to help where I can.
And I do have to, I'm like late for a meeting, so I'm going to pop off, but I appreciate you
pulling me up and, uh, yeah, this has, this has been a great conversation.
Thanks for coming by patches.
Have a great rest of your day.
Um, uh, Danny, good things.
Uh, I posted this, uh, Danny, you tweeted this like four days ago.
So you went to Costco and you bought a 4k TV and you streamed the dimensions from the Bitcoin
blockchain onto it.
Like I saw this and I was like, this is the absolute nail in the coffin for this narrative
that like, you have to do like low resolution, crappy, like pixelated art on Bitcoin.
Like that is absolutely categorically false based on the tweet that you, uh, put out.
Do you just want to like talk about that?
I mean, it's a little bit of a stunt that you did to kind of just like show like, you
know, that narrative is like total BS, but I'd, I'd love for you to talk about that a
little bit if you wanted to, either of you.
Yeah.
I think I'm showing Costco now, huh?
Or at least cheap monitors at Costco.
It was only 250 bucks that, that 4k monitors is their cheapest one.
And that's not bad.
So yeah, it, I think there's a lot possible.
That's why, you know, we're also so excited by, you know, or those inscriptions within the
framework of on chain, there's, there's so much possible.
And that's just an early example, right?
That's something we did spend a bunch of time on it, but we, and we inscribed it in February.
So it's, it's kind of the very early example of showing what's possible with, with something
that's all on chain, you know, high, you know, high detail rendering 3d with lighting and everything.
And it looks actually, it looks great on a 4k monitor.
I think it looks better than on your computer, like in the window.
So, and so what I did was I just pointed the, basically any explorer viewer, you know, to
that actual, um, inscription or no, and put it onto the monitor or on the, on the 4k display.
And you can see it.
So, it will be, and we're excited.
If only we knew what inscription it was, Danny, if only we got, if only I could go, uh, pull
this up on order.io right now, unfortunately, you guys have like stealth secretly inscribed
this thing somewhere, like sub 1 million and people have been hunting for like months.
And I think like one person, is it still true?
Only one person's founded and you have them like being, uh, yeah, one person, one of our
holders found it.
And he told me, and we're in agreement to keep it stealth for until our launch.
So the launch is June, June 15th and we'll, we'll share and we're quite excited.
Awesome.
Wow.
That's like literally, yeah, that's extremely, it's crazy.
We're in June already.
Um, very exciting.
Uh, that's, um, yeah, I'm super, I'm super pumped for that.
Um, Seth, welcome, uh, welcome to, uh, the ordinal show.
I think it's been a minute since you've been here.
I'd love any updates on, uh, your end towards games, like, you know, what you're seeing in
the kind of Asian markets, anything really, you, you've always been super insightful.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
Um, so good to be here.
Sorry.
I'm a little under the weather.
Um, I, uh, been coughing, uh, my lungs out, uh, since the, uh, or this games mint,
uh, we've, the team has been working nonstop, uh, you know, 48, 70 hours straight, um, for
our mint, uh, we created the first, um, playable PFP, um, on, um, on ordinals.
Uh, so the idea is, um, this collection of ords heroes, uh, our PFPs that you're going to
be able to play in our season three game that's coming up next week.
Uh, we launched on magic Eden, uh, our wireless mint, uh, minted out over like 2,500, uh, ordinals,
minted out in like 24 hours and our magic Eden launch, uh, minted out in 97 minutes,
uh, to be exact.
Uh, some of you on stage were, uh, in a Twitter space with me when, when that happened.
Uh, we literally, well, we, we just had a space for the whole mint and it's just finished.
And now we're like, okay, we can close off the space now.
Um, so that was really, really awesome.
And, um, thanks to everyone who's been supporting us, um, doing game fight on Bitcoin.
Uh, and, uh, it's been a great experiment.
Um, and, uh, last time I was on the show, it was before Miami.
So lots has, lots have changed.
Um, since Miami met a bunch of really, really cool people.
Um, I changed my PFP, I changed my profile picture to Antrimonkey, um, because I bought
it yesterday.
Uh, I secretly sold a, yeah, a Zuki, cough, cough, uh, to do that.
Um, I noticed a lot of Zuki people are getting into ordinals these days.
I was on a space yesterday with my men, right?
Uh, Danny was there too, good things.
Um, and, uh, I know Mulan from a Zuki launched a, uh, artwork on, uh, Magic Eden as well.
And, uh, there's, uh, another influencer, uh, Alina, uh, who's, uh, joined the, uh, uh,
or no side with her PFP change with an orange background.
And she's in like some alpha groups with us as well.
Anyway, it's, uh, just great news seeing that all these Ethereum people coming over,
uh, to, um, pay attention to ordinals and Bitcoin.
And, um, yeah, over here, coming back to Asia, it's been, it's been great.
I traveled 30 hours flying back, uh, total of 48 hours.
Um, no, 54 hours, uh, going to Miami and back, um, and, um, you know, brought back a lot of
alpha for the community here.
Um, people were really excited to see that, you know, I met real founders, uh, in real life,
uh, over, uh, over there, um, founders like, you know, Danny, good things, uh, big God,
Bob, uh, we all, we all met up and, and Jan and Trevor, of course, we parted together.
It was good and fun.
Um, and, uh, it's, I think the IRL elements of this, um, Web3, uh, especially cross-cultural
and cross-continent, uh, is very, very important.
Puts a face to the name and just builds trust instantly.
Um, I think a lot of the times in Web3, uh, it's trust is the main issue here, right?
Like you, you haven't met these people before.
You don't know where they are located.
Um, you don't know if they're legit or if they're going to just, you know, drop some
NFTs and then, uh, rug pull later.
Um, I think, you know, having, having, and, and, and, and, you know, having good credential
and, uh, is one thing, but meeting people in real life is completely different.
So, um, you know, I know second half this year, we're going to have a lot of events in
Asia token 2049 is going to be in Singapore in September.
Um, there's a WebEx event in Japan in July.
So really hope to see some of you, um, come over here in Asia and, and visit us.
Uh, we're going to be doing booths and doing events there as well.
We'll definitely, you know, send you invites for our site events, um, and if possible,
have you as speakers and obviously meet up and, uh, party it up over in Asia.
Also, thank you so much.
Always appreciate you coming up here.
Um, love, uh, love what you're doing over at Orange Games, like gaming.
I have so much fun, uh, playing like the kind of retro style games.
Oh, it's like, you know, inscribed on chain.
Like that's one of the cooler things in the space for sure.
Um, yeah.
Good.
Thanks.
I just want to say welcome to that to the wealthy digital nation.
We're super excited to have you.
It was amazing to meet you in Miami.
It was amazing to meet Trevor, Jan, big God, Bob, hang out with Danny for the first time.
I've worked with him for over a year and a half.
My first time meeting him.
It's super amazing to be here with all the Bitcoin folks.
This is Bitcoin summer, but it's also the beginning of the Bitcoin revolution.
The best people in the space are getting into ordinals.
You can't stop it.
Yeah, let's go.
All right.
I love guys.
I'm seeing some pink hearts.
We gotta, we gotta get on that orange heart train here.
We, uh, Trevor converted me last week.
I was like throwing up, I think blue hearts, Trevor.
And, uh, he switched to black hearts and his profile background's not even orange.
We're on orange hearts for good.
I mean, Leo, dude, your background's not orange.
Like what's going on here?
Uh, so if you want to change to the orange heart, you just like hit the emoji button and
you long press the heart and then you can change it to orange.
And then we, we know we can trust you at that point.
You know, we know that you, uh, that you know how to use Twitter.
You're a sophisticated, smart, uh, based intellectual.
And, uh, yeah, we love the orange hearts.
And if you want to go even further, I'm going to give the, uh, even further alpha.
If you have Twitter blue, you can go into your phone into color scheme and you can actually
change the secondary color.
Of course, you gotta be using dark mode.
Otherwise people think you're a psychopath, but you got to also use the orange mode.
So that way, when you say, when you share those DMS between, uh, you know, when Leo
shares his DMS with Udi that we see the, uh, the orange speech bubble.
And we know, we know, you know, Trevor, I saw your tweet about secondary color orange
and I tried it and I couldn't do it.
It was like bright orange everywhere on Twitter.
It just didn't work.
I don't know how you do it.
It's all right.
Once you're orange pilled, you know, you'll get it.
You know, once you're truly, once you're truly orange pilled, you know, it's just orange
everywhere.
You know, you only see, you only see, you only see life in two modes.
There's like orange mode and then there's, you know, boring, boring life mode.
All right.
On that note, I think that's our show, Trevor or Jan, unless you guys had something else.
Um, this has been a really awesome show.
Um, do you guys have any kind of final parting words here?
Otherwise I'm going to hand it over to Trevor, um, to ring us out.
All right, Trevor, I'm going to hand it off to you.
When Trevor, uh, starts, uh, finishing up what he's saying here, I want to see a lot
of orange hearts.
I just want to see firing off orange hearts for the next five minutes straight as we, uh,
we end the show here.
What an awesome show.
I hope everybody has a great week, Trevor handing it off to you here.
Thank you everybody for coming up here today.
Thank you to our speakers.
Thank you to our guests.
Make sure if you're in the audience, you give them a follow for coming up here, sharing
alpha, sharing thoughts.
It's not easy to come up here and speak.
You know, uh, it takes a lot of courage to go outside your comfort zone, share, uh, an
idea that's not fully formed and just participate in the discussion.
So we'd love all of our speakers and guests who come up here, uh, every single time, uh,
for you in the audience.
We love you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Uh, we'll be back Wednesday at 6 30 PM.
We do the show every Monday and Wednesday, Monday at 10 30 AM Eastern Wednesday at 6 30
Make sure you follow at the ordinal show.
That's our official show, Twitter account.
We have a link in the bio to our sub stack.
Subscribe there.
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So you never miss what's happening on the leading edge of Bitcoin.
And of course, make sure you check out our Spotify and Apple podcast where we post edited
versions of this show.
Great way to catch up on what's going on in the space.
If you have a friend who was just digging into ordinals, trying to figure out what to do,
send them our podcast.
It's, it's edited.
It's, it's, you know, only the meat on the bones, uh, are there and you know, you can,
you can blast him through and catch up probably in a, in a decently, you know, long flight.
And then you'll be on the same page here and you'll be able to dig in.
You'll be able to know what's coming next.
And we love you guys for coming.
We'll see you again on Wednesday.
Hope you guys have a great one.
Cheers, everybody.
Hope you guys have a great one.
Hope you guys have a great one.
Bye.
