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The Ordinal Show
Recorded: March 19, 2025 Duration: 2:10:12Space Recording
Short Summary
Bitcoin's price surge to $87,000 signals a significant upward trend, while the Ordinals show gains traction with increased community engagement. Upcoming events and token launches, alongside discussions on KYC regulations, reflect the dynamic landscape of the crypto ecosystem.
Full Transcription
Yn ystod y cyfle hwn, mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
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Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
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Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn. Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn. Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
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Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn.
Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn. Mae'r cyfle hwn yn ystod y cyfle hwn. You We're going to play a song called The I got my head checked by a jumbo check It wasn't easy But nothing at all
When I feel every bit of woohoo
When I feel every bit of woohoo
When I'm loving, I'm amazing
All of the time but I'm never sure
When I make it
Please I need you I'm sorry but I'm never sure what I'm making
Please have a chance
I got my head down
When I was young
It's not my problem
It's not my problem It's not my problem
When I'm feeling a little
And I feel that I'm in a
Where the light and I'm in a
Oh, the time that I'm never sure why I'm in a Good evening, Bitcoiners!
That's right you're here at the Ordinal's show!
Welcome back to our regulars, hello to our new friends.
If this is your first time, the Ordinal show is a live podcast hosted twice per week on
X Spaces starting 10.30am ET Monday mornings and 6.30pm ET Wednesday nights.
Going for multiple hours covering various topics all about building new
Cool shit on Bitcoin
Ordinals are not just a new kind of NT Bitcoin
But a massive movement of people who care about growing bitcoins adoption and bringing BTC to the masses
More important the protocol itself or does is a cultural shift that's attracting new developers and users incredible artists and accelerating innovation
I'm Trevor that BTC managing part of the Bitcoin frontier funder and co-founder of pizza ninjas
And I'm here like co-hosts the guy who'd rather skip his own show than skip leg day
You can spell his name, but can you pronounce it is it Jan Jan or Yan?
Anyway, he's the CSO and extras of my man with the planet the king of BTC
smart
Leona is our you know, it's an ifD history expert and co-founder of Word.io.
And today on the stage, wow guys, big improvement, big improvement.
This today, compared to Monday, okay, we got Wolf up here, we got Dragon,
we got two people up here guys, which is, you know, two more than we had on Monday, guys.
John showed up.
John is actually here, okay.
So guys, things are looking up guys. Things are looking up this week.
I am super excited to be here. I'm glad that you're all here with me.
I pinned the tweet to the top, letting everyone know that we're live.
Please take a second and look at the tweet at the top. Give it a like,
give it a retweet, show some love for the algorithms and want more people into
space.
Also smash that purple button in the bottom right hand corner of your phone with
your comments and questions. Throw some GM and LFG tweets in there.
We read your questions of the show and we remember your name. Don't forget to follow the Bitcoin Ordinal Show on X at The Ordinal Show.
Subscribe to our sub-side newsletter, link in bio because we weekly recaps in the newsletter
and our CPS for future shows as well as a condensed version of the show on Apple and Spotify podcast.
So you never miss what's happening on the leading edge of Bitcoin.
And with that, I'm going to turn over to Leonidas to introduce today's show.
So I have to ask, Jan, you tweeted 10 minutes ago a picture of a bench at a gym.
You said, let's get after it.
Legends, do you is that like something you like took yesterday when you worked out and how you
posted or is that like you're literally timing the Ordinal show with your gym you know I need to multitask so I am right right
now I'm at the gym just with two other dudes right now you know it's empty but
we're getting after it hell yeah love it love it love it okay I like to see it I
like to see it so yeah a few things to chat about here. So, um, I don't know,
like I figured we could just briefly talk about it.
It's not that interesting, but so I put out this like super cringy ad. Um,
I don't know. Did you guys get a chance to see it?
Oh my God, dude, such a great ad. I mean, just so touching. So re they really,
they really emphasize the benefits of Solana as a chain
and the technological, you know, unique value proposition of what they bring to the table in
that ad. So I'm just really glad that they made that ad. It was a masterclass in how to do marketing
for a blockchain. They just tried way too hard. It was ridiculous. Like it was so long. Like I see where
they were going and they could have, if it was short and a little bit like snappier maybe but it's such as I
got fast forwarding like I would get to the fucking point when they got to the
point I was like alright they're tripping balls for sure
yeah I have the more extreme cake that it was like every single word was
impossibly difficult to listen to it's like the word cringy gets overused, right?
Like people just say, oh, that's cringe, that's cringe.
Most of that stuff isn't cringe.
Something is cringe when you're watching it happen and you are cringing.
I don't know if you guys have ever been at like, you know,
you've seen someone public speaking, you know, crashing and burning.
This is like some awkward thing with like a guy and a girl at a bar.
Like, and you're just sitting there like really, really hard to sit there and watch.
That is what cringe is.
And like, that's what I experienced when I watched that video.
So props to the Solana Foundation for building,
creating an ad that was able to make me cringe for like three minutes straight.
It'll it'll go down in history for sure.
Like it'll be it will be an ad that we never forget
for sure. How much do you think they spend on it? Did you see it, Jan? Probably 100k, dude.
Probably spend 100k on that ad. 100k? I thought you would say a mil. I don't know, these things
cost money. I mean, dude, if they spend a mill on that, I mean,
if that was a million dollar ad worth like, you know, a million
dollar ad is like, you know, roughly the kind of general
rule of thumb is the amount you spend on the ad is roughly what
you spend to like creating it is what you spend kind of
distributing it. And yeah, I mean,
I mean, I'm a million
dollars out of Super Bowl at you know, I just I just feel like
you know, they engage some agency and the agency is
probably not, not cheap, right? Even though it didn't turn out
to be amazing. But they still it could be a couple of charges.
And it was definitely a couple hundred K video as opposed to a
couple mil video. I mean, a couple mil video, you know, you
get like, you get like Brad Pitt in there to do it, you know what I
mean? Or you get George Clooney? Or you you know, you get like
some like special effects, you know what I mean? Like, you get
a Tom I mean, probably a several million dollar ad get Tom Cruise
like skydiving, you know what I'm saying?
Loki, I kind of like the way they handled it. I feel like
usually people like complain and they're like, oh, they do this big apology and make
it seem like they did something horrible.
It's not horrible or evil what they did.
It's just a cringey ad.
I kind of like the move.
It's just like delete the tweet, never talk about it again, we move on.
I like the marketing there it's almost extra cringy when like the CEO of Solana foundation comes on and is like
you know guys this was a horrible mistake for us and like this was a
major major miss and then like me like feeds it's like feeding into the people
it's just yeah I like it we move on from that Albert did you get the pleasure of
watching this?
Yeah, honestly I have to be honest I didn't spend time on anything Solana I was too busy doing stuff on Bitcoin
This ad over the past couple of days it's like kind of hard to miss unfortunately.
No, I mean like I just like I have extremely great discipline when I'm scrolling through Twitter.
I just when I see it's a lot of my god that makes one of us.
Waste of time keep going. Do you get like on posts in your feed Albert?
It's like random Elon like Tesla stuff all the time. I
It's like random Elon like Tesla stuff all the time. I
Get some you lost like I subscribe to Elon's I get his stuff. I mean, I think he'd post some cool stuff, you know
But honestly look guys, I want to make an announcement like free for everyone here in the audience
We're doing a whole day event at Bitcoin Vegas. That's happening on May 29th
event at Bitcoin Vegas that's happening on May 29th.
I'm gonna drop this up here and give everyone
like a special code.
So sign up now if you wanna get in for free later on,
we're gonna be charging.
Sick, this is like a side party to Bitcoin Vegas.
Yeah, it's a side party.
So it's like, yeah, thanks.
Basically, like every time we do a RL event
with a conference, we get the highest concentration
of investors
and founders and creators, of course, like focus on Bitcoin and now AI.
So if you're a founder, creator, investor, you're somebody who cares about Bitcoin, you
want to support meaningful things coming to life on Bitcoin and AI, come to our event.
This is the place to be.
Hands down, there's no contest. We had
people going to 80 different events at ETHEMBER, Bitcoin. Oh, by the way, I'm pretty proud
to say this, but of those 80 events, seriously, all of them were we had full coverage. It
was either one of our speakers or one of our graduates were sponsors or the host of the
event. But people that went to 80 events, they said our 8th number event was still hands down
the best and most highly concentrated for investors and founders.
And we owe part of that success to collaborating with Bitangels.
Highly as I see it down there.
But we're going gonna do it again. It's probably gonna be a little bit bigger this time for
sorry for
Bitcoin Vegas, yeah, excuse me. I'm lagging right now because I'm selling like heavy medication from recovering from
From the shingles you guys know what that does. Oh, you got shingles. Yes
Do you mind if I ask you to get the shingles vaccine when you were like a kid
So I'm not sure if I do or not
But I was reading that you know
If you have chicken pox like the shingles virus is dormant on your nerves
Until a later date when you know, wait, so you got chicken pox and then like many years later you got shingles basically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow, that's wild.
That's wild, man.
Are you better?
Like, are you feeling okay?
I am better, I am better,
but it was excruciating pain for like.
Yeah, I've heard it's terrible.
That's, yeah.
It is something else.
Like I was like amazed at how painful it was
John I don't want to hear any complaining about your week Albert had a shingles
Okay
All right
Look, I wanted to
Tell you guys that I was right based on the show the other day. I kind of got flooded by Bongo a little bit
based on the show the other day. I kind of got flooded by bongo a little bit. I think it's a legitimate concern. And look, I know it sounds like conspiracy theory. But what I see happening in the US right now is you have a bunch of basically crypto dudes, crypto people that are, you know, kind of bought their way into influencing the government
over the past year.
And now there's going to be some crypto legislation.
And it just so happens that all of these people are the custodian crowd.
I don't think the like web three crowd is what represented well.
I don't think like the on chain deck type of crowd is being represented very well. And I kind of, you know,
flooded a little bit of the kind of situation in the US based on this last week.
And dude, I think I'm right.
Like, did you guys see this Coinbase verified pools thing?
They're going in a direction of basically creating DEX pools that are KYC.
So the wallet has to be KYC.
They give you a credential
on your wallet and then the token has to be kind of federally verified to trade in the pool to be
verified. I don't know like it's if that's the direction Coinbase is taking things in on chain
like I'm not that's not cool with me and like Coinbase is the new enemy. I don't I don't like
that at all. So well people feel about that but yeah, I'm not a fan of KYCing wallets and
you know, verified liquidity pools. Not cool.
You are on chain to do whatever the fuck you want, right? And if you are in a place with
legislations against what you're trying to do, you better not get discovered.
And then they're trying to do things right by their people
and their, you know, well, within their situation,
this is the best they can do.
And they can go maybe full decentralized
and do all the things that we would like to do here,
but maybe because of good reasons.
Doesn't have to be all full decentralized, Leo.
So look, I mean the bottom line is like you're basically just saying like in the US we can't do
web 3 stuff and I mean my take is like I certainly hope that's not the case and I if it truly was
like hey like this is the best future for crypto is that the government approves like you know a
couple hundred coins that you can trade and you have to KYC your metamask and stuff
or your ex first.
I mean, that's not a great outcome.
And you know who benefits in that world?
The people advocating like Coinbase like Brian Armstrong wins in that scenario.
So like my my the point I'm basically making is the incentive is for these guys to basically
lock in lock in their sort of, you know know hybrid between the web 3 world and the government
They kind of act as the intermediary there and like that's I think what they're trying to achieve and I don't yeah
That's not not aligned at all with
Kind of my values and views that I don't know like we'll see what ends up happening
But I've kind of had this gut feeling for a little while now and the verified pools thing is definitely Coinbase
trying to say, you know, this is the technological solution that you should regulate.
It has to be the way to do this.
And yeah, we're probably going to see that that type of stuff roll out and you're not
going to be able to just go to DEXs and trade whatever you want anymore.
In the US, you'll have to, you know, trade a limited amount of tokens, just like you do on a centralized exchange,
which, you know, we all know kind of sucks.
And then, yeah, you'll have to KYC your wallet, which is also pretty shitty.
So we'll see how it all plays out.
But like clearly, you know, the biggest crypto company in the US who probably has the most influence over this legislation
Clearly seems to be pushing in this direction and you know, this verified pools announcement is like validation pretty much of that
Little conspiracy theory that i've kind of had in my head for a little while. Um, you think david sacks subscribe to that?
Say it again bongo You think david sacks subscribe that? You think he's playing ball with them?
Yeah, absolutely. Look, David Sachs isn't like a huge crypto fan. If you guys listen to the All In
podcast, in 2021, David Sachs made this big Serana investment. Him and Chamath were in the Serana
round. They made literally a billion dollars on Solana at one point.
Their tokens hadn't invested yet, but were worth like a billion dollars.
So they've made a ton of money there.
And they were super pro everything.
When Solana went to $8 for the entire bear market, so basically the last two years, David
Sacks on that podcast just absolutely shit on this industry, said it was all scams, garbage, move to AI.
That's basically the message.
So I don't think this is like the biggest crypto friendly dude as people quite think
he is.
I think he's very pragmatic, but I don't think he's like super believing the ethos of like
on chain free markets and stuff like this at all.
I think he's like very pragmatic about all of
it. Trevor?
Yeah, I do think that this KYC pools and things like this is kind of sketchy, right? But I
don't think it's going to affect, I think it's virtually impossible to legislate against
DeFi. I mean, because it's all decentralized. They'll be able to take down the websites, right, but they won't be able to take down
the smart contracts themselves. And it'll just be about creating other
decentralized sort of interfaces, interact with these smart contracts,
making it more user-friendly.
And I don't think that we would have to worry about that. But did you
But did you see today about the,
see today about the, like I think Casey launched I don't think that we would have to worry about that.
I think Casey launched the Ordinals 1.0.
There's a big post about Ordinals 1.0.
It's kind of feature complete.
And I didn't get to catch it,
but I think he might have either said that
he's going to disappear forever
he's going to disappear forever or he's going to stay out and build more
or he's going to stay out and build more features.
features. One of those two things he said,
One of those two things he said,
either he's going to never build any more features for Ordinals and disappear,
or he's going to continue to do that. I didn't get to see it.
But then there was also something about a feature that he was considering that
would have the ability to, so we don't have to split runes anymore.
Did anybody catch that?
So I have not split runes anymore. Did anybody catch that?
So I have not listened to the podcast. Does anybody here have any insights because they
listen to the podcast? Rip? Well, we need to listen to the podcast probably. Maybe the
next somebody can AI summarize it or something before we before the end of the show. But
yeah, look, it sounds cool. Like I know. Maybe I'll just go watch
it now you and Jan talk about like supplements.
It would honestly probably be useful to our listeners. The
thing is like I usually don't have like an hour to listen to
something. But this is probably worth listening to. So somebody
go somebody go watch it and come back on in like an hour and tell us
What happened? Okay, like I'm not joking like come back in an hour. Let me see how long it actually is
Yeah, it's pretty long
It's an hour in ten minutes
Double speed guys
All the features he's been talking about he wants to kind of get out and put in word one point up and you know ship
You know, we're technically in beta right now. He wants to go to production like main net type situation, get out of it, which would be pretty sick.
Like, I think it's a pretty big accomplishment to do that.
And it also means that Casey feels like the project is at a point where probably doesn't need as much anymore, Which is which is obviously a huge milestone
Albert what's up, bro?
Yeah, I just want to say I agree with your sentiment about the coinbase thing
I mean, we're sort of like on different topics, but I
Would just want to chime in I mean we probably won't know what's really gonna happen
And I mean, we probably won't know what's really going to happen until later on.
We may have, all right, well, Coinbase is centralized, so it has KYC, but then we might
have like a different set of rules for like decentralization, right?
I certainly hope that's the case because we just need to get out of our own way.
I mean, Americans, America. Regulation is just causing us to lose every single sector battle.
There's just too much regulation holding us back.
We have arguably the highest concentration of brightest people in the US,
because it's no secret that a lot of people want to immigrate to the US because I mean, it's no secret that, you know, it's like people want to, a lot
of people want to immigrate to the US, right? And they do. But these regulations are really
just cramping everyone's style. I mean, look at, look at Huawei, right? Would they have
ever caught up had we not had so many like stupid regulations to stifle innovation, telecom?
No, they would never have caught up. It's the same with that, but let's see what happens.
Hopefully the KYC is only for the centralized exchanges.
Yeah, so KYC, what I'm saying is literally their product, they announced it.
They basically said everything that I was worried about.
Their product that they're releasing, Verified Pools, you have to have a KYC wallet to interact with the smart contract.
Like you literally cannot trade on the liquidity pair
unless you have a KYC address, which is what they're trying to achieve.
Right. It's KYC and, you know, a white listing token situation in the Dex.
So they're basically trying to make.
So are you talking about Coinbase, like the centralized one?
Are you talking about?
Yeah, Coinbase is a centralized company has their base blockchain and they have their Coinbase wallet.
So they have like a, you know, on chain, quote unquote on chain kind of part of the company.
And that part of the company is moving in the direction of having a sort of
regulatorily approved on chain version of doing things.
And then everyone else were all like the Wild West.
And my guess is the incentives are to have, you know, get out ahead of that and then sort
of push legislation through saying this is what you need to do.
And then they're locked in.
I hope it doesn't do that.
That'd be fucking retarded.
We get well, my thought is that it's more likely than not that that actually does happen here.
And you know, I'm not like, I'm not worried about the Bitcoin network getting attacked.
Like I'm not.
Bitcoin is a super resilient network.
You know, these smart contracts and these other blockchains are fairly sound.
You're not going to like stop the tornado cash smart contract.
You're not going to stop the Bitcoin network with a 51% attack.
I'm not worried about that.
I'm worried about the 300 million American citizens being told it's illegal to do something.
And in general, the vast majority of American citizens are of all abiding individuals.
So, you know, if they think Bitcoin is illegal to hold, nobody in America is going to hold Bitcoin.
Very, very few number of people hold Bitcoin.
I think it actually is a huge attack factor is this.
And yeah, I'm definitely worried that they're going to try to do KYC wallets
and white listed verified Dex pools.
It's like a legit, legit concern that I think is kind of the legislation
they're probably trying to push over the next couple of months here.
So again, we'll see.
We'll keep following this on the show.
But it's a it's a legit concern I, yeah, I think it's kind of,
everybody's like super pro this administration
and all the crypto stuff,
and I'm taking a slightly different stance here.
I'm not as pro if that's the direction they want to push.
Good things, what's up, man?
How you doing?
It's been a minute.
Yo, what up, Leo?
Yeah, I mean, but Leo before we switch over look,
yes, yeah, is is.
Can we sort of well, I mean like coin best even the on chain stuff is is centralized, right?
It's not like so I would argue that to a degree.
Yes, but like I can take any token I want and bridge it to base and trade that token and download
Metamask wallet and trade any token on base, right?
They're basically saying that, you know, there will be a step when you download, you know,
Metamask where you have to basically go through a KYC.
So you're basically can probably practically that'll be you're connecting your Coinbase
account to an on chain wallet.
This will be a requirement to trade on-chain legally.
And they're going to say the tokens that you can trade are limited
to a set of white listed verified pools that they've specifically,
you know, they I'm sure they will be the middle man between the federal government
and us that says, you know, which tokens can or can't be traded, right?
The same way they do currently.
Yeah, that is scary though thanks for clarification.
Yeah but look.
Leo can you pin it?
We'll follow it.
Can you pin that news? I would love to dig deeper because
yeah I mean the way you're presenting it is definitely
gonna sound shit to be honest but
I want to learn more.
Yeah, man.
Look, I'm legit scared of it.
Like I think this is horrible.
I think this is I'm a US citizen and I think like this will probably impact US citizens
a lot if this happens.
I just kind of tweets you guys can see.
Good thing.
Yeah, bro.
The scary thing is that, you know, if you look at at history then there's a 95% chance of that
happening right but yeah because the people who get to have the influence over crypto
register legislation stand to benefit from that right like Coinbase doesn't do well in
a world where you can just trade any token really frictionlessly with no KYC on chain
why would you ever use Coinbase right so right So, yeah. All right, but I want to quickly go over to GoodThings.
Welcome to the Ordinal Show, bro. It's been a minute. I hope you've been well.
Yeah, man. Thanks, dude. It has been a minute. No, it's good conversation and
I'm always impressed with the way Jan is able to pace his breathing when he's, you
know, he unmutes while he's lifting thousands of pounds of
weight over his head, including the entire ordnance industry.
But I think to Trevor's point, I get the fear for sure.
And I'd be curious to know if there's any talk of an actual bill around this, or if
it's just kind of the product announcement and an inference that that's coming. But I would point to this landmark case
that was overturned in December regarding tornado cash and the United States Treasury Department.
And the appeals court ruled, the federal appeals court, so the United States, it's a fifth circuit
court of appeals, basically told the Treasury Department that they had exceeded their statutory authority
by trying to sanction immutable smart contracts that were basically the bread and butter of
the tornado cash protocol.
And to my mind, this is one of the most important things that ever fucking happened in crypto.
It's right up there with the SEC case versus Ripple.
And it firmly fucking establishes precedent in the appeals court.
So not even the lower court,
but it actually the fifth fucking circuit. So I think at this point, I'm not a legal expert,
but they would have to either go to a higher circuit or eventually the United States Supreme
Court to actually reverse that decision. And it basically says precedent that people who are
enacting on chain United States citizens who are good actors should be treated as such by the by the law.
So I totally get your concern and I think we definitely have to watch it.
The other thing too is Coinbase fucking funded that court case completely and they funded
several other court cases that were fighting for the freedom of people you know, transacting
on chain. So I do understand like the concern and believe me, I've been there, you know, since 2017,
I remember Coinbase fucking, you know, going down every time we needed it to be up, right?
Anytime there's crazy price action, we couldn't access it.
And there's been a series of other issues, I'm sure.
But I think in general, like they've proven, especially with these legal fights, that they
they are pretty well aligned with their customers.
And if they want to just provide private permission, fucking all that centralized opportunity to
try and emulate what's on chain, you know, to centrally or whatever, I think that's fine.
It's just it's good competition, right? Like we got to make sure that the decentralized or more decentralized products are just, they just beat them.
And if you're, if you are, you know, even a modest user of any of these networks, you're able to access them and use them easily.
So I'm not quite as concerned, but I definitely think it's a good thing to point out and for people to be looking at.
I definitely think it's a good thing to point out and for people to be looking at.
Dude, I really I seriously hope you're right.
And it's like I think there's a lot of people that do believe in kind of what we believe.
And hopefully, you know, we prevail in the end.
I'm just worried that like, OK, that statutes great.
But ultimately, it's like, you know, you can always use the Bitcoin blockchain to send a Bitcoin transaction,
but you can't send it to a terrorist organization.
That's considered illegal, right?
So yes, we can send Bitcoin transactions, but they limit the actions that you can take,
right?
So in this case, it would be like, okay, you can trade meme coins, you can trade NFTs,
but you can't trade the utility tokens by startups, right?
Unless they go through this whole process and then they'll get to kind of pick and choose.
There will be something like that
if this does play out, well, they'll just be like,
you can trade these tokens, these tokens, these tokens,
but you can't trade all these other tokens
because they're not approved.
That's basically kind of the world I'm worried about,
but I agree, like that was a massive case
and it's like, we could have been in a world
where that even wasn't cool.
Yeah. So we'll see how it shapes out, but just to answer your question, there is
you know, legislation coming down the pipeline, pretty big crypto legislation
that my guess will probably become more of a conversation over the summer.
It kind of looks like it's shaping up to be like around the summer.
You'll probably start hearing a lot more about that, but they're
they're a Congressman right now writing crypto legislation. That's all getting shaped right now. They're writing all that stuff
right now. They're getting opinions from the industry. They're running those things by the
large US kind of industry participants, and that stuff's getting decided in the coming months here,
and I think probably by the end of the year we'll have a crypto bill, would be my guess.
Again, this is all speculation.
It's just the very rough outline of what I see kind of shaping up.
I'm just hoping, I'm just hoping it shapes up to be a good thing and not a bad thing.
And I view with the Coinbase verified pools as being the only way to
legally trade is a bad thing.
100% man.
Yeah.
What up guys? Good things piggybacking off of your point there.
You know, I think that I'm, I would say that I'm the most optimistic doomer that you'll
ever meet.
So on your side, Leon, I just, yeah, I'm like scared shitless because the last thing I'd
ever want is that.
And I think that actually it's negative for Coinbase's business if they go down that route.
I think the only reason they would go down that route
is if it's the only option
because it just lowers the addressable market.
Like people trading shitcoins constantly on chain
and like making and losing money,
it all flows back right now
still to like centralized exchanges
because off ramps fucking suck still.
So I think that ultimately,
like until we get much better off ramps to like getting money into our bank accounts or whatever,
or never having to actually leave crypto because we can just use stables at the store or something
would be would be ideal there. But yeah, I'm thinking that we're getting a crypto bill.
It's not going to be what we all want.
And I'm hoping that the verified pools are just like a back door
in case the government hates us.
Look, we will find out.
We will find out.
It'll be an interesting, I think it'll be an interesting year because people
have been talking about crypto legislation for, I don't know, man, like
it's been like five or six years and nothing's ever actually happened.
And quite frankly, I love the current situation where it's like, everything's fair game.
You can't like do it if you do like an extreme rug or scam, the SEC is going to come after
you and that's that's like cool and all.
But yeah, like if you have to have like, you know, a 16 Z funded startup that pays like
the $5 million in lawyers and going through the whole
process to legally do your ICO and all this shit.
Like, yeah, you're going to have a very small number of startups and not that much innovation.
I don't know, we got Navin on stage.
Navin, have you looked at this Coinbase verified pools thing?
It's like kind of concerning to me.
I'm curious your thoughts? No matter the intent, default surveillance technology will always devolve into a dystopian nightmare.
Why always? Why always? Does it have to do that? Yeah, it does. It does. And the reason why is because when something is default surveillance,
you lose any form of plausible deniability. And so then you end up having the scenario where
you always are concerned that someone's going to be a criminal.
You know, someone is going to do something bad, someone is going to be, you know, a fraudster or
whatever it is. What's a criminal? The crime requires an injured
party. So like who's hurt? Well, in the case of the US government versus North Korea or whatever,
the US government feels that these OFAC sanctioned states shouldn't be able to receive money because
they're sanctioned. So it's not a question of who is injured
It's a question of what is legal in the eye of you know, a big brother
Yeah, a bunch of hogwash
What's what's what's hogwash
The very concept of sanctions OFAC and any of these regimes.
If you really want to get into like this debate, I could get some personal matters on the table,
but I don't know if we really want to go there.
I mean, wait, are you are you are you advocating for default surveillance technology?
No, I'm quite doing.
I mean, well, it's a yes or no question.
I see. You know, I'm starting to see some potential benefit in it.
But like it's the.
Yeah, this is really complex issue.
And it's not it's right now.
It is a complex issue, but it's a yes or no question. And,
you know, I think like, ultimately, if you want to live in 1984, land that's on you, but I don't.
Yeah, I mean, people have a choice if they if they want their it's kind of like you have a choice on
Twitter, like I may not and some people have their identity. I think in Australia, you have to have
like a KYC Twitter account now or some shit like this. Like you can
just imagine how it kind of goes down this situation. And like
in crypto, right? All of our wallets and stuff are super
public and then everywhere you transfer people can view and
you're basically saying like people should just have a choice
that's like not this super complex choice of like, oh, I
set up all this stuff. I do all this but it's more like you just flip a switch and you're like, I want
to be private when I'm I'm in like incognito mode or I'm in my big other mode. You know
what I'm saying? No, I believe that things should be default confidential unless you
want to reveal. And I don't think that should be I don't think that's a very controversial
opinion because that's what you have in TradFi largely, at least on a peer-to-peer basis.
I don't get to Google your bank account number and see your entire transaction history if
you send me a wire transfer.
If I run a store and you use your credit card at my store, that doesn't mean it gives me
permission to see your entire transaction history with your credit card.
So I don't know why we think we're inventing the future of finance and making it objectively worse for people. I think it's crazy. I think it's a crazy thought
that it's a good idea to have something be default surveillance and have it be objectively
worse than the system we're trying to replace. I think that's just crazy.
So I agree that it's objectively worse on the privacy front. I think there are still
a bunch of advantages to crypto unrelated to privacy that are why people like it But I do think that yeah, like well, I'm not
But hold on. Hold on Leo. I'm not saying that I mean, you know that you can have a default private crypto system
So I mean like that's what Monero is Monero is default private. It's a crypto system
it's a crypto system. So I don't think those things are mutually exclusive to you.
So I don't think those things are mutually exclusive to you
So I guess like I think you can definitely send currencies around like from one wallet to another
they've like that's solved from a privacy perspective but if I want to like you know do
an NFT collection mint like how like that's going to be tied to a wallet or something right at the
end of the day. Dude,. Dude, you know this.
You can do an attestation without revealing balances.
Like what are you talking about?
You can if you want to be able to do an attestation and say like,
oh, does this person own an asset or not, you know, kind of a thing.
You can do that without having to reveal the entire transaction history and balance for the person.
So an attestation is a very simple crypto primitive.
Can I so let's say I have like an NFT that I want to sell to you.
Like how would I do that in a private way where it doesn't look like Leonidas
sold it to you?
So at the end of the day, for me as like the buyer, obviously like,
I know that I'm buying it from you, but in terms of the rest of the,
that's like going to a store and the
store owner knows that they sold you the thing. But that's very different than the rest of
the world being able to look at the block explorer and look at the on-chain history
and know that you and I had a transaction together. And there's all kinds of technologies
that are employed for this. Obviously, there's people who like ZK oriented technologies.
In the Monero world, you have things like stealth addresses and confidential transactions
and ring signatures and other kinds of technologies out there that are used to obscure this sort
of information when someone goes and looks at transactions on the actual chain. But that
doesn't mean that obviously if you're selling me an NFT, I know that you're selling me an
NFT.
So, I guess what I'm asking is like, I think in the privacy tech world, generally what I see is it's like, they have really, there's really good built out solutions for like, I want to send token
from A to B and not know that it came from me kind of a thing when you get it but for like all of the general purpose smart contracting like
AMMs all this sort of stuff defy
NFTs like what are there good examples of that all being private or is it more the kind of core use case of just sending?
Tokens I mean Leo you you know what I work on right I?
Do correct okay, so I'm not here to I'm not here to shill it or anything, but like, what do you think we're trying to
do here?
Does it work, I guess is what I'm asking?
Of course it works.
Can you mint NFTs?
Of course.
It did.
There's an entirely Rust-based L2 that's default confidential and supports all that stuff.
Of course. So if I want to have like a
if I want like add liquidity to a liquidity pool this is like an example.
Can I like shield that was me who added it type of a thing? Yeah of course.
Maybe it's going to somebody else maybe I'm sending to my friend maybe I'm
doing some other maybe I'm missing an FT or maybe I'm sending to my friend, maybe I'm doing some other, maybe I'm missing an NFT,
or maybe I'm adding liquidity to a liquidity pool. That is like a thing that exists.
Yeah. I mean, again, it's all about creating a world where if you look at the chain itself
as a random just observer, you can't spy on everything. You can't spy on people. You can't
You can't spy on everything. You can't spy on people. You can't use it as a tool of surveillance.
So absolutely, you can supply liquidity to a liquidity pool. You could issue an NFT. You could buy it.
You could do all these various things. There's nothing about privacy as a core construct that prevents you from being able to do these things.
It's just that people have decided not to implement it that way,
but it's purely an implementation decision.
Okay.
So like, is there a deck's website that I can go to?
And it's like the kind of privacy version of the deck.
Well, I mean, look, as you know, what we're, what we're doing is still in
development, so like, I don't exactly have some like fancy gooey, but if you
want to download Tata universe and go and fuck around with the miner, you
know that that exists and it's beautiful
It's beautifully designed. You know that it's great app
So but like in any of the other kind of like Monero world, do they have an STS like Naveen?
I'm obviously not super no no, so some in there Monero Monero is is very limited right in terms of like
Programmability, right? So Monero is incredibly powerful
From a privacy standpoint and in terms of it being
a core medium of exchange, like store of value, kind of like cryptocurrency project. But it doesn't
have the level of programmability, but that's why Tari exists. So my mental model should be like,
is it correct to say that you're building like the general purpose Ethereum of Monero or something like.
Well, it's not.
Yeah, it's not of Monero.
It's just a default confidential.
You know, there's a bunch of, dude, I don't, I'm not here to give you like all the characteristics
that make it special to your space.
I'm just saying like it, yes, in a way, but it's not of Monero.
It's just something that's default confidential, front to back, and it has a full Turing complete VM.
So you can build whatever you want on it.
Right, so the general pitch though is like,
hey, most people have heard of Monero.
They know there's privacy blockchains
where you can like send back and forth, right?
But you are the general purpose version of that.
You're like Vitalik coming along
and taking Bitcoin and making Ethereum, but you're adding
programmability to specifically the privacy aspects, right?
Yes.
Yes.
And it's proof of work and we're using an ASIC resistant hashing algo and we have the
easiest to use mining application ever invented in the history of the space.
And we have native distribution for apps.
So this is a bunch of stuff.
It's not just a simplification of oh
It's another KYC gated proof of stake piece of shit like everything else out there
It's it's like truly cypherpunk in nature. It's straight-up permissionless
You literally just download an app and you can start to mine and play
Trevor
Yeah, sorry is the shit Navina's the shit but I hate to jump in here because I did ask
Chris to come here to plug some competition that we're hosting here that anyone can participate
He has to jump in like 10.
So Navin, do you mind if I just put a bookmark in this and can let Chris plug this event
that we're doing?
Of course, of course.
No, no, please, please.
Yeah, of course. And Tari is please, please. Yeah, of course.
And Tari's the shit.
Yo, what's up everybody? Yeah. So Tom for a very organic plug, you know,
not in the middle of an argument or anything. Um,
we're doing a really cool competition.
So just to kind of like brighten up the space a little bit, uh,
we're doing a map building competition, uh, but on our new, uh new pizza pets game, which is going to
be a MOBA game.
And you know, we've been talking about it for a while.
Season one was a wide success.
I mean, we have almost a million transactions on Bitcoin, which is significant.
It's got to be one of the tops out of any game that's ever been built on Bitcoin.
And yeah, super excited.
So on this competition specifically, we are giving away immortals.
So you don't have to raise your pet for months and months
like everybody else did to get to immortal.
You can just skip the line if you're a badass builder.
If you have any experience with anything similar
like Minecraft or any other building game with blocks,
basically use your creativity.
I did a breakdown video of exactly how to do this
that's pinned on the Pizza Pets page.
I'll actually go ahead and put that up on the board up above.
So even if you're not familiar with using Figma
or any way to build these maps yet,
you should be able to just really just get started.
There's people that's never done this before
that was able to watch that video
and get going within a few hours.
So basically the competition's to be based on creativity
and be based on map design and basically whatever
the people want.
We kind of tiered it to have different prizes
for the sole purpose of wanting everybody
to be able to participate.
We really got excited, also, just seeing previous games do
really well that are built out of other games, like League
of Legends and like CSGO.
You know, just having the community kind of go in and build things that became even bigger
things in the future.
So we really want to see what the community could do with this.
It's just an exciting and fun challenge.
We have all the assets in a file for you.
All you have to do is go to that file, which is on one is on one of the pieces of the thread in that
tweet.
Copy those file assets and get building in FIGMUD.
But also you're going to get brownie points and bonus points for the way you deliver it,
whether you record the process, you record yourself doing it, you do something creative
with it.
Just have fun with it.
The number one prize is going to be an immortal breeding set. That's 11 of our immortals, which is quite a pretty penny, quite a pretty piece of Bitcoin
right now.
So it's a huge first place prize that a lot of people obviously are going to really want.
That's going to be voted by the most engaged and obviously we're going to verify bots are
cheating.
That's basically letting like everybody, like all the people decide on what their favorite
is. I personally think that the cream will rise to the top and the
most creative and the best deliberate will be also the most engaged because we're going
to like manually go through at the end and see, you know, which people might've had,
you know, unfair paid spots or whatever. We're going to make sure that the engagement is
authentic. I make sure that it's not spam and it's not bots. Second place is going to be chosen by the pizza ninjas team, our core
team. It's going to be a group vote within the core team. So don't worry if Trevor doesn't
like you. I might like you. If both of us don't like you, then your chances are really
low. But, but all in all, the core team will vote on the second place, which is six immortals,
which is actually more than half of an immortal set.
We're going to vote on our favorite.
And again, that could be based on creativity.
That could be based on style.
We're probably going to be arguing about it because we argue about a lot of things.
And we'll probably be arguing Trevor is probably going to like the most architect one.
I might like the best one based on content.
Ken might like the way the creativity that went behind the scenes.
Who knows?
We're going to be arguing about it.
We're going to select a winner, not based on favorites, but collectively decide who
the winner is to that.
And lastly, the third place is going to be one immortal to the Pizza Ninja's community
vote.
One ninja equals one vote.
The ninjas will be able to vote on their personal favorite.
Now this is not limited to other prizes just being given out along the way.
You know, let's say that you do participate.
There might be brownie points given along the way.
Trevor gave that little teaser in the longer space.
So if you don't feel like you can get one of these top three places, I still highly
encourage you to click on the video above, go do the competition, submit it, just have
fun. This is something that we wanna do during this market.
Just have fun.
Have fun with Ornals and ultimately just get ready
for our new game that I'm super excited about
and loving being a part of building.
We've also been just announcing the 3D models
of the characters, how they're gonna look at the game,
some of the assets and so much more.
So thanks guys very much for allowing me to do this plug
in the middle of everything.
I appreciate it.
It's been some really good conversation.
Once you get really heated during these conversations
and you might just wanna wind down and build a map
and then submit that map.
So that's pretty much all I have.
Thanks guys for the time.
Chris, when does the competition end?
When do people have to have their submissions done by?
Yeah, I would encourage by the end of next week.
We haven't set a hard deadline yet.
That's something that we probably should do,
but we wanted it to be kind of more casual on getting started.
But I will say definitely by the end of the next week.
The sooner, the better.
And also, I'm manually going through every one of them myself
and just making sure that they're seen by everybody. That way,
everybody has a fair chance. So again, if you, if you do it,
make sure you submit it into the block survey that's in there. Um, because if not,
I might not see it.
And you can submit multiple too, so you can submit multiple times if you'd like.
Oh, I was going to say, I was just going to ask how many,
how many brownie points do I get if I, if I play disc golf with Chris,
but it's okay. That's a lot of brownie points. Honestly, that's probably a tremendous amount
Yeah, I miss you Chris. I'm already swayed
All right, you heard it here guys you basically have one week
Am I correct like you were we were talking about this a couple weeks ago
It's actually fairly easy like this is not some like crazy technical thing like you can go and play around with this
It's not like super hard to get set up right like this is not
Like you don't have to be like an architect knowing architect. I mean, I mean
Normally, I have to call the best by geek squad just to help Chris learn to use Google meet and zoom
meet and zoom. So the fact that Chris made the video should tell you that this is like
So the fact that Chris made the video should tell you that this like super easy to do
super easy to do. So yeah, like literally takes like five seconds.
Like you just got to, and Chris did a great job breaking it down. That's why
I forced Chris to do this the hard way because I know it would be a challenge for him and
we'd have to call a geek squad and they'd have to like, you know,
they're probably pretty busy, you know, and we have to get the guy to, you know,
and we have to get the guy to drive an hour over to Chris's place to walk him through it.
drive an hour over to Chris's place to walk him through it. But nonetheless it was all worth it They're probably pretty busy, you know,
But nonetheless, it was all worth it because now it's explained in detail for anyone.
It's pretty easy to do.
It's like, obviously, it's like a Photoshop.
Figma is kind of like a Photoshop app.
So it's just like you're opening MS Paint or Photoshop
and you're just moving the different things around
and using a drop-down to change them to different
types of tiles.
So it's literally, if we made our own app to do this,
it would only be incrementally easier than doing it
kind of pen and paper way with Figma.
And we are going to have to make our own app eventually
we are going to have to make our own app eventually at some point for this.
at some point for this.
Yeah, because people will be able to actually put this
Yeah.
Cause I mean people will be able to actually put this on chain too.
Like right now, like none of this has to be put on chain yet.
Yeah. Yeah.
So like, uh, in the near future we would have like, uh,
an app where you could make these maps and then,
and then you could inscribe them on chain and people could actually play on your
map, um, for the game.
Love it. One week guys, Chris, I appreciate you coming up bro.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
I guess like one last thing that I might not have said
that's not super clear is if you click on that game protocol,
it also just kind of gives you like what the game is about
and what it's going for.
So think about that when making your map
like that it makes sense to within the game style.
And like obviously let your creativity flow because there can be like sub games made
out of like a main game. So if you have something else creative you're going for,
go for it. But you know,
think about it in style of like an actual map that's going to be played on as
well when you're, when you're creating it.
Is there a limit to the size of the grid?
That's a hilarious question. I'm going to say no, like,
I see you can do any size you want, but we put a 20 by 20 and 30 by 30.
I mean, there's definitely some people who are aiming to do the largest map possible,
which definitely there's probably some brownie points for.
But then once people get into it, they're like, oh shit, this is actually really big,
like 100 by 100 or something like that.
Can you guys use AI to build these things?
It's probably probably taking more effort to get the AI configured to do this
than to just do it yourself.
Jan, why are you always jumping to the AI stuff?
Man, people build games with AI these days, you know, and they don't even have to know how to code.
So I'm just curious. Have you seen that new airplane game that dude made?
No, I haven't. I haven't. His name is like levels IO.
He made this like airplane game with like, I think the new croc.
It's actually kind of fun. It's like a multiplayer game. It's kind of cool.
Interesting. John has an AI chip. Rock, paper, scissors. the
the Also paper and scissors
Who did that I
Don't know No, I bought the scissors on ease back in like 2021
They did not run and I bought two different collections of scissors. I don't know which one was a real one, but
They did not want the paper did run a little bit though. There was like a red paper a blue paper
Well, it's all emerging developmental stuff,
this ordinal ecosystem, you know?
There's the bricks collection.
There's like, I think Joe Looney did a,
it's like a bricks collection, low inscription number.
There's the handful of those.
There's a handful.
I think we have Robert.
Yeah, I don't know.
Okay. I forget who. Okay. Chris, appreciate you coming up, dude. This is sick. Can we
bring on the winners, Trevor, in like a week or like two weeks?
Oh, hell yeah. If they're willing to come on. I mean, it doesn't require you to dox
yourself or to come on a space if you win or whatever, but we would love to have the
winners on here to talk about how they made it.
You do just need to make a screen recording though to explain the thought process on the map.
You could use a voice modulator. I don't know, maybe Leo used a voice modulator.
That's why his voice is so deep and...
Trevor, can you talk more about how these maps are going to be used afterwards?? Well one of the submissions today used an AI voice and it was really cool. Like it was one of
those like prompted voices probably using, I forgot the program, but like that like prompts
these really cool voices and they use like music in the background so it sounded like it sounded
really awesome. That's cool. Yeah Albert asked like how we're gonna use these maps so I mean I don't
So I mean, I don't think that we'll do them as official maps
I don't think that we're going to use these maps.
or any of them as official maps, but they'll definitely,
the main goal is to give our community something fun to do
and to explore ideas.
So some might come up with some random thing
that we never thought of about the layout
and what they wanted to achieve.
So it's fairly open-ended.
So it's fairly open-ended.
If you read the white paper,
If you read the white paper,
the full design doc for the game is,
it's structured enough, but it's also open-ended enough
where you could do a lot of different things
with a custom app.
And we're trying to surface those
sort of contrarian ideas, I guess.
And maybe someone will create the perfect map, like God could not make a better map themselves kind of thing.
And maybe that will be the official map, I don't know.
But I think most likely it's going to be having fun for the community and also just exploring what ideas people have for how it could work.
Because it's a turn-based MOBA, which is like League of Legends style game, a genre of a game.
MOBA, which is like a League of Legends style game,
a genre of a game.
And so it is quite novel because it's turn-based
and also because Bitcoin has 10-minute blocks.
So you do have some design considerations that you have to
think through and make work for this unique environment.
But we're pretty confident that we have viable solutions for them them. That's just about making it like fun interactive game basically
You could relate that's a bitmap even with the 10-minute block time, you know
Because bitmap is paired to the block time consensus mechanism
That was one hour
The space lasted for one hour time to bitmap was one hour
Is it really I the Dogecoin they're even faster Yeah, I'm a Doge Doge map landlord so I'm pretty happy about that
Or do you do you rent your doge map to other people
No, well I've got to I guess I don't know I sent a few. I've made a historic trade actually this one time.
Um, my friend Ali out here, he runs a weed shop in Thailand and, uh, and I traded him.
Uh, pack of 400 Doge maps for some weed.
Um, like it was like a $20 trade.
Um, but at the time, cause like at at the time, DogeMaps were just like really,
I mean, they're still very, like, not very much worth the price too much. I mean, the intrinsic
value of their worth, their worth really, you know, something intrinsic, but like,
Their price is quite under appreciated at the moment.
their price is quite under appreciated at the moment.
I could say the same thing about a lot of things today in the market.
Yeah, you know, I wish I had more ability to express myself.
Like one of the things I want to make more videos and stuff.
My phone kind of like bullies me like out of storage already.
I go out of my way to
pay extra and I and my it like doesn't even have micro SD card anymore it's
crazy dude I don't know you know but anyhow I'm loving this ordinal ecosystem
I just remembered the scissors today I was like thinking I was just kind of like
looking around I was like oh yeah rock- scissors and like I saw the rock the scissors and I was like yeah Bitcoin
scissors let's maybe no one's bought one of those in a year and I think I was the
last person to buy one so or maybe someone I don't know let me remember I
just remembered I haven't seen it who is the last person
Yeah, my ears are bleeding yo Leo it sounds like you are like the Wizard of Oz right now like you're like
My god, dude, it's so bad. It's so bad. You need to,
you need to like mute yourself immediately and like,
I'm going to try. I'm going to try this one. How does it sound?
Oh my God. Are you using a voice modulator? God, dog, dog. Go to the moon.
Sorry. So the guys, this is Leo's actual voice.
I don't know if you know this, but this is
Hang on guys, turn the voice transformer off.
Can you hear me still?
This is without the transformer, but turn the transformer back on.
I just turned all the transformers off.
Everybody hears me?
Yeah, we hear your normal voice.
You and I had a call the other day and this is exactly what you sounded like.
This is what I'm talking about.
What is your normal voice? Oh oh my god dude it's like
echoing and in hurting switch back over to my regular voice here yep yeah the
voice modulator is back on now thank you okay everything's back the voice
modulators on we're good. Yep. Okay.
On the voice transformer. All right, we're back. Oh my God. I feel like, I feel like I heard someone with that voice like on like the America's most
wanted show last night or something, like giving away clues as to where to get
the person.
All right. Well it should be, everything's, is it back to my normal voice
modulator?
Yeah, yeah, the normal Leonidas voice modulator that we designed is back on.
Perfect, perfect.
Leo, I had a question for you.
I know we're kind of off topic here.
Yeah, what's good, Bogs?
How you doing?
What's going on?
Going back to the KYC shit, what's your like true concern right like I might my things like okay?
Well, we're kind of in the and then they fight you stage or early stages of it like I'm not here to suck
government cock right I think they're gonna fight us regardless to
Do what you're not here to do what did you say?
You know, I'm not here to suck any cock to
You know, I'm not here to suck any cock to
Sorry, I didn't I sorry you cut out for a second. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm not here to suck
No, don't don't say it again. Don't say anything. Don't say it again. But see come on man. I know
The more you have to repeat
Don't fall for it man
But yeah, I mean I was leaning into it.
I'm not here to praise centralized governments or encourage them to buy anything.
I don't really give a shit about that.
Bitcoin is kind of permissionless.
What's the true concern in terms of Bitcoin?
We're kind of the ordinal show.
Who cares about base coin or coin base or anything, right?
So if you what you're I think you're operating under a default assumption that this like coin base verified pools
Is only going to be like an optional thing that you can use over on base
What I'm suggesting is that coin base is creating the technical solution that they're
then going to try to make the government regulate and force us to only use that
if you want to use on chain. So if we wanted to for like for example X first
wallet if you're a US citizen X first wallet will not allow you to use X first
unless you've KYC'd through probably Coinbase there would be like a login with
Coinbase to your X first wallet this type of interface. I gotcha. Okay, yeah, yeah, I can see that
argument that obviously would make it a little bit more friction, but I mean if
you're using Bitcoin Core wallet or you download a Sparrow directly from
GitHub, you can make any transaction you want, you can send ordinals
around, you could probably even build something for ordinals with a You can make any transaction you want. You can send Ordinals around.
You could probably even build something for Ordinals
with a fork of Sparrow and have it downloaded on your PC.
Like what's, you're just-
I mean, there are ways to get around anything.
It's just, it's still concerning.
Sure, okay, yeah.
So it's just the friction aspect that's kind of-
I actually don't think the friction aspect is everything.
I think KYC, I don't think the friction aspect is everything. I think
KYC, I don't think you should be forced to KYC to use the blockchain. And I think probably my biggest
issue is actually just around the white listing of tokens. So it kind of sucked when there weren't
boxes, right? You basically had this like, you had to be either wealthy or connected or already kind of
part of the cabal to launch a coin and get it on a crypto exchange. My experience with Dog over the
past year has basically been that decentralized exchange listing game is rigged. You either like
cough up the money to the middle man and get on these things or you don't. And like that's pretty
frustrating to see that there's been like this kind of toll booth erected in the market and the government is yet erecting another toll booth.
So you would have to be even more kind of playing that whole game to have your product.
I think somebody should be able to be a developer, single developer in their room coding at night and launch a cool thing.
Right. I think that's that's dope.
I think their government's trying to get rid of that, right?
You're going to have to like, like, do you enjoy like interfacing with lawyers?
Right. Like there's going to be a lot more lawyers involved with anything
you do related to crypto like that's not like that's not good to me.
Yeah, I don't I don't like that.
I'm a Bitcoin or not a crypto guy, so I don't like I don't see the oh like I have to ask permission to launch anything
Like you don't have to ask permission to launch a rune on Bitcoin if you want
You absolutely would have to ask permission to launch a rune on Bitcoin legally in the US if I don't give a fuck
Thank you. Why would you care? Why like I don't understand. What do you mean? Why I would care?
I don't want to be breaking the law in my country.
Yeah, I mean, I just think there are some tyrannical laws and if you're abiding by dumb shit, then they're meant to be broken.
I don't see the reason.
I'm 100% agree with you, but I mean, I don't think the solution is to kind of like stick our head in the sand and not be concerned about these things and not fight them if we can
Sure. Yeah, you're right. I don't want to see more developers going to jail and more people getting sued regardless of their own Bitcoin or any chain
For any reason so I mean, yes, sir, you know, yeah if you could have better regulation then yeah 100%
I'm just I guess I'm just not as worried as a lot of people are
Considering that you don't really need
an exchange or you don't need to have shit like that. If you're here for permissionless money,
you shouldn't be again sucking government cock to have favorable shit. This is the end of fiat
and the beginning of a new system. Of course, they're going to fight back.
Of course, they're not going to want you to do this shit.
I mean like it's a no-brainer.
I don't know.
Yeah, so the issue is that most people don't have your mentality, right?
Like if they're told that it's illegal to have a Bitcoin wallet, that's not KYC
like like if you have to legally connect your Coinbase account to log in to your
ex-first wallet, right?
That's what 99.99% of you know, people in the US will do.
There is the 0.01% bugsy that's like you that's totally cool to like,
you know, fight the government on this and like use VPNs and do all this stuff and that's fine.
But you're going to have a really hard time scaling any of this to people.
It's kind of like look we can launch, you know, dog on Bitcoin, but ultimately,
if people can't buy dog on Bitcoin, or it's very hard to buy dog on Bitcoin, because it's
not on Binance or something like that, that's drastically limiting the upside on the amount
of people who can participate in dog, right, or own dog, right. So it's basically the same
thing here. I think if you have to log in to your extra
swap with Coinbase and when you go to Magic Eden to swap, there's only 30 approved runes who were
able to raise money and pay the $500,000 and lawyers to get their token approved to be
listed in a dex and there's like Magic Eden is anointed with one of the
dexes that's allowed. Like that's not the future that I want at all. Yeah.
Yeah, I guess I guess the president is just a little bit odd, right? Like if that were
the case, I just wouldn't use Magic Eden or experts in the first place.
And yeah, so hang on, are you in the are you a US citizen?
No, I'm Canadian, which is even more draconian.
Yes, so probably you'll have this for us even.
But the point that I'm making is you're fine just using a VPN and breaking the law.
Most people are not fine with doing that.
They're not going to like people want to go to the app store and download an app and just do stuff and click a button.
And they're not going to break the law, right?
It's just not most people don't want to, want to, they want to be law abiding citizens.
Just for the record, I'm not breaking any laws right now.
Just on a public record here.
Things aren't even mutually exclusive where it's like, I'm willing to break the law, but
it's like, if we could do everything we can to prevent us from needing to, I mean, I think
we should be doing that.
And the Coinbase thing is just like, you know, they fucking tweeted out those pool
things and then a second after they tweet out economic freedom.
Like I can't stand these people, you know?
I mean, if you're going to make the argument that, okay, maybe the government may require
something like this, that's one thing, but to actually fucking build it and put it out
before any such requirement and not try to delay it as long as possible is like I don't know what they're trying to deceive us with. I mean yeah. Well also
calling something a DEX when a centralized exchange
controls it, I don't consider that a DEX of any sort right? I mean if you're
begging a centralized exchange to abide by your permissionless rules I just
think that's kind of silly.
It's not going to happen.
What do you mean by that?
What do you mean by that?
The Coinbase has many different products.
One is their centralized exchange, but one is their Coinbase wallet.
One is their base blockchain.
Yeah, Coinbase is a centralized exchange, but we're not really referring to that.
We're referring to Coinbase's new on-chain products that are going to be this kind of weird hybrid thing.
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. I'm yeah, this is obviously on chain products that are going to be this kind of weird hybrid thing. Yeah, gotcha.
Gotcha.
I'm yeah, I this is obviously out of my scope of expertise.
I'm more of a Bitcoin man.
So that's my bad.
Appreciate the clarification.
Well, look, we will see what happens again.
I'm not trying to create false alarms here.
I just we totally we literally talked about this on the show last week.
And then like yesterday Coinbase puts this tweet out.
I don't think it's a false alarm.
I think it's a red alert.
I personally it's like one of the top things I'm concerned about in this space for sure.
It's yeah, there's going to be an endless battle with governments.
There's always attention a push pull there and you know, probably Naveen's right like
you inevitably at some point in time if they they can do these things, and they will, it's kind of like, why can
Telegram and you know, WhatsApp and stuff and signal have, you
know, you can do whatever you want there. Well, it's because
if as long as it's technologically built a certain
way, the government can't reasonably ask the Telegram CEO
to like monitor the chats, because they literally don't see
them. So it's built in such a way that That's not an issue
But if you can do it and you could like if that dude could monitor the chats
Then he's reasonably the government's are probably gonna ask him to censor the chats, right?
So if I think in general it makes sense Naveen do you want to add anything here? I
Think we should all be fighting for the core ethos that powers
Bitcoin, which is a permissionless world that's highly
decentralized, that's super high integrity, that's self-sovereign, that's
censorship-resistant. And I, one of the reasons why I love being able to come and
hang with you guys is because everyone here is a Bitcoiner. Everyone understands these things.
These things are core to our collective values. These are shared values for everyone in this room.
And these are things worth fighting for. And, you know, I think that, by the way, as everyone
knows here, a lot of the very best privacy
preserving technologies in the space were developed by Bitcoin core developers,
for example, stealth addresses and confidential transactions and other things.
So we're all on this journey together. And I think that it's just very, very important to keep our
core goals in mind. Bitcoin is a renegade technology. It is a rebel technology. We are
all rebels here. And I think all of this hyper centralized, KYC gated, default surveillance
stuff is fully permissioned. There's nothing permissioned, permissionless about it. It's entirely mother may I participate, mother may I submit my
government issued identification and do a liveness check and dance in front of the camera so you know
that I'm alive and then you will allow me to participate in the future of finance. And I just
strongly disagree with anyone who's an advocate for that.
I fucking hate the WorldCoin shit.
I fucking hate all the stuff that's happened
in the Ethereum world, especially most recently.
I hate all the centralized sequencer L2s.
I hate all of this stuff because I think it's garbage.
I think it's bad technology.
I think it's bad decisions, bad trade-offs.
And I think it's just gonna come back and haunt the users
So like I am fully about it how it's used. It's like it's not necessarily bad technology
It's like anything how it's like you cool. Okay, could be used
Very sleeper could be used
When does Navin come to Bitcoin that's the question all those things you talked about are right here. I'm already a Bitcoiner, dude. I've been a Bitcoiner since I got into this space in 2016.
But anyway, my point is, here's the problem. The problem is that you can't prevent people from spying on you on Ethereum.
There's entire products for this. Arkham Intelligence and Nansen and whatever know, whatever, like that's, that's the entire like thing and frequency and, and, and, and,
and also you can't prevent now, like obviously these default surveillance chains
are like, uh, uh, you know, it's like a honeypot for AIs for AI stuff, right?
Like what do you think is being used for like training data, uh,
for anything crypto related.
It's like, you know, the Ethereum blockchain and all the L2s and everything
else. So I just think that the whole thing is bad because I think it destroys
freedom. I think it makes every transaction a scarlet letter.
I think it dehumanizes people and I just, you know, strongly reject it.
And I'm all for core Bitcoin values.
Like I'm a hundred all for core Bitcoin values. Like I'm 100% for core Bitcoin values.
Naveen, just to add to that, I think a lot of people forget, core Bitcoin values like the ones
he outlined, those are very in line with core American values that may not be represented all
the time by our government, but are rooted in a lot of our legal structure and in battles that we have run before, such as the crypto wars back in the 90s, where
we established the speech that we've had the kind of retest here.
So like, I feel like a lot of the attitudes of like some people that go, oh, like a lot
of this KYC and stuff is inevitable.
Like we can oppose a lot of this shit with a lot of, and there's a lot of basis for it.
So, you know, I just think we have to be messaging and fighting those things harder and not cowtowing to a lot of these politicians, which I see a lot of people very comfortable doing because my main theory is that they really want one of those Sharpies at one of those bill signings.
that they really want one of those Sharpies at one of those bill signings.
So, yeah.
So yeah.
Yeah, look, I think Coinbase just got a huge black mark in my book.
I don't like Coinbase that much right now.
We'll see what ends up happening, but yeah, that was not cool.
Not cool.
Fiat, what's up?
Hey, what's up, guys?
How's it going?
I can't imagine anybody in the room
that would disagree with Naveen's position of default
privacy.
We probably all had some really bad experiences with KYC.
I once actually broke my arm because I
was trying to hold a sign note proving that I was myself,
my driver's license at the same time and taking a picture of myself at the same time they
sent to KuCoin.
Another time my VPN was in Germany and they did an interview and I was trying to fake a German accent.
Those were jokes, by the way.
One thing is, just as purely philosophical, is that I actually do like people's ability
to track wallets. There are the sleuths of the mob who track bad actors, or they track just different things.
I was wondering if most people think that those things—because in a deregulated world,
you still want those things to exist, just your, you know, anti-speeding radar devices
that you have in your car. And just wondering how people felt about that in terms of whatever
technology there is to hide your address that there would be like countervailing technology to
sort of find out things. I don't think it's necessarily needed or rooted in any legal basis.
I mean, we've seen these things.
I mean, we had Apple fight the FBI years back when they wanted to open them, terrorist-froan,
with encryption.
I mean, Bitcoin at its core is encryption technology.
And that's part of my point where it's like, we really already fought a lot of these fights
years ago, but it's just in a different context
we're having them now.
That I don't think we have to like, sure, you can come up with bad scenarios with terrorists
things and that yada yada, but that's the case for everything.
And the idea that we, you know, sacrifice some of those privacy features for those things
have like no basis in being effective and is just, you know, tyranny in a different
word.
The vast majority of people don't do bad things.
Why should those people suffer to try to like, like if you've done nothing wrong, you shouldn't
have to be punished, right?
So it's on America.
I also think that what is wrong is changing over time.
You know, I grew up in California when marijuana was illegal.
And you know, if you got caught with having a 20 sack
or something, you would get arrested.
And if you got caught with more,
then you were considered a dealer, seriously.
And then that changed over time.
Like I think people forget that we live
in a patchwork quilt environment.
What's legal in one place is illegal somewhere else.
Sure, everyone wants to be a law abiding citizen,
but what does that even mean?
That the definition of law abiding citizen
is changing over the course of time.
So that's one problem.
And the second problem.
I think there are people still in prison
after marijuana laws had been removed.
Sure, I think you're probably right.
It's not like they just Let the people out. Yeah
No, no 100% true and and you know, I think that
again, I come back to
What what is the default for a human being the default for a human being? Is that the things that you do over the course of your life?
Generally have a temporality to them, you know, there's there's generally few things that you do in your life
that are like a scarlet letter. Now, obviously, if you really hurt someone or you commit a
crime in a serious way, you know, you're a fraudster or whatever, then yes, of course,
you know, if you're a felon, that stays with you for the rest of your life. We've made
a decision in society that that's what should happen when someone commits a particular offense.
But generally speaking, your everyday activity is the fact that I go to a bar and have a couple drinks,
the fact that I decide to travel somewhere, the fact that I decide to do pretty much almost anything as a free person in the United States,
these are not things that are a scarlet letter for me. These are not things that stay with me for the rest of time.
And I think it's very important for everyone to know that like as human beings, we're changing constantly.
The person I was 10 years ago is not the person that I am today. And it's not the person I'm
going to be 10 years from now. We're all on a journey. We're all changing over the course
of time. I think it's incredibly dehumanizing for to create systems where everything single
thing you do is a scarlet letter on an immutable system
for the rest of your life.
Like every single transaction you do is a tattoo.
I think that is absolutely batshit crazy.
I think it is bad technology.
I think it is completely inhuman.
And I think it's dystopian to the max degree.
Yeah, it's not even that it's just like unsettling
that that exists.
It's more that like, inevitably of course, that information gets used to incentivize you and control what you do.
So it's like, okay, great.
You have freedom, but then do you really have free?
Okay, so I have the freedom.
I could do this.
But if I do that, then my score drops 30 points and then my kid can't get into college.
Yes.
I mean, five years ago, people were getting knocked by credit card companies and banks for executing their second amendment right and buying firearms.
There have been many cases where the FBI and all these things, because they don't
have the fourth amendment protections, have got and bought banking data from
these companies and with three hots of some of these things, the amount of
things you could figure out about someone's life because they went to a
pharmacy and they had a doctor's appointment and things like that in terms
of surveillance state technology is I mean
This has been this is just demonstrable just of what we've seen through the past few years and like all of that stuff
We're saying now it's on chain and not obfuscated at all. So that's why I fully agree with all the beanslings
Yeah, Ethereum is a social credit system, you know, I mean like straight up and and like I just think it's crazy
I think it's absolutely crazy that, you know, there are people out there who are advocating
for this.
And I think like the whole like pocket watching thing, being able to track wallets, I think
it's disastrous.
Like I understand that...
Naveen, sorry to cut you off.
I'm just curious like what you think of tornado cash in the context of Ethereum privacy? So the problem with tornado cash
and other optional privacy regimes is that
it sort of becomes like on you to choose privacy
versus not privacy.
When what I think the way the world normally works,
the way human beings actually work
is things are actually default private and then you choose to reveal.
There's no record of what I ate for breakfast today.
It's nobody's fucking business.
If I choose to share that, then I choose to share my story about what I ate for breakfast.
That's on me to choose.
So basically, anything that is other than default confidential
is removing the choice from the person
or it's creating additional friction
for the person to choose privacy.
It's sort of like going to the grocery store
and using your credit card.
And before you check out,
you have to click the make it private button.
Like that's not how the world works.
The way the world works is you have default privacy on a peer toer basis. I'm not saying that credit cards are fully private. Obviously
they're not. But at least on a peer-to-peer basis they are. You can't just like get someone's
credit card number and see their entire transaction history on Google. So I think that, and this
is the same issue I have with things like Zcash or other optional privacy
systems. I think those are better than default surveillance, but they're not the ideal outcome,
which is default confidential.
How would you feel about a middle ground? I'm not saying I like this. I'm just saying
it is a middle ground of like right now everybody sees everything in crypto like including the
government including the companies that create the stuff including you and me and everybody
and then in the real world the way it works is like not we don't all get to see everything
but the companies who run the product and the governments and they kind of act as the
the kind of watchers of it so they see it's a limited number of people get to see it and
you're advocating for nobody except for you gets to see it
Is there a middle ground where it's like, okay, we like the government see the transactions
But it's almost like it's like a special access that they have and then nobody else sees it
So that's so that's called that's called a back door
But here's the thing about it. Um, there there is a very important concept here, which is called programmable
privacy. And what you're advocating for, what you just suggested, is very similar to how
the fiat world works, right? So I come to your shop and I use my credit card to buy
a croissant. Okay, great. I went to Leo's big shop, I bought a croissant. You know that
I bought the croissant, but you don't know that I have all of my transaction history
using my credit card.
Now, obviously, Wells Fargo,
or whoever is the issuing bank of my credit card,
knows all of my transaction history
and is reporting to FinCEN and reporting to other regulators
all of my transaction history.
So that's how the traditional fiat system works.
And you certainly can design systems
where you have peer-to-peer confidentiality
and the issuer of a token, issuer of a smart contract
can decide that they have full visibility of the TX graph
so they can be compliant.
So to me, that's like it's not the ideal outcome, but it is still a
far better outcome than default surveillance.
Right.
So I would put that as like one step above optional privacy.
So again, if you treat privacy, not as like binary outcome, you treat it as a
spectrum, then you would say that, okay, you have default surveillance, then you
have like optional privacy regimes, then you have programmable privacy regimes, but still default private.
And then you have full blown default private, like all in.
And that's kind of like a way to think about it on a spectrum.
And so what you just described as programmable privacy, which I think is,
which I think is like, okay, right? Like, again, I'm not, I'm not like,
like the person who's like tinfoil hat guy and says like, Oh my God, you gotta
like, you know, you know, always carry oh my God, you gotta like, you know,
always carry around a Faraday cage and, you know,
like, you know, live off the grid.
And you know, like that's not like,
I want people to be able to live their lives
and be able to participate in society
in any way they choose to.
I just think that people should have more choice
and Ethereum gives you no fucking choice.
I mean, I'll go a little further and say I think the idea that the government has any entitlement and this is just like, I don't know if it's like some stockholders and just
saying I'm not picking on you, Leo or anything, but it's just like, because it's prevailing
that it's just like, oh, we can actually say that everything should be private.
I mean, cash was technically private for all of human history and that concept, right?
All these things didn't exist up until like the 60s and 70s
and quite frankly, 90% of them are all based
on having just an income tax system
and the government making sure that people don't evade taxes.
So, I mean, the whole basis idea that the government
has any right to any of our transactions
and that we should kind of have as an industry some default to that, I think, has just been
a very flawed mentality instead of staking out our position of no, default privacy is
completely reasonable in a free society, completely American, and I don't have any idea why we
would argue against it.
Naveen, you just said kind of like your last closing word, like there's no optional privacy
on Ethereum, but didn't we align on tornado cash kind of being that optional privacy?
But the number of people that even know tornado cash exists on Ethereum is a rounding error.
Ethereum is a default surveillance product that has a rounding error percentage
of users who even are aware that there is an optional privacy opportunity.
So I don't consider tornado cash a solution on Ethereum.
So what is the stance on in the U S if you're a U S citizen,
can you legally use tornado cash?
Can I use like right now?
Of course, of course you can.
There's nothing there's nothing illegal about privacy products.
You can use Monero.
You can use signal.
You can use any end to end encrypted product.
You can use VPNs.
You can use I mean, dude, there's nothing about privacy that is illegal in US law.
Gotcha. I still can't send to it. I mean, dude, there's nothing about privacy that is illegal in US law.
Gotcha. I still can't send to it.
Well, that's proven that I use tornado cash to fund terrorism.
That's illegal. But I can't. That wouldn't be so good.
Transaction to you.
Yeah, of course.
Like, obviously, it's incumbent on you to not do stupid things.
Like, yeah, of course.
Like if you're going to go, like, you know, buy child porn or you're going to fund a terrorist organization, doesn't matter how
you do it. It's illegal. Of course. I'm not advocating for people to do illegal things.
I'm just answering your question. Is it legal to use privacy preserving technologies in
the United States? And the answer is yes. Well, for a few months there, at this point
it wasn't because the government tried to add tornado cash as a person to the OFAC list and that was overturned in court.
So, just my point that a lot of these things that they tried to do, and one of the good
examples of this that I know well is like the 3D printed gun industry where they were
losing in court all the time on that one.
That would be one you would think they also want to restrict but they just couldn't get around the fact that code of speech and uploading that type of stuff
just can't really be regulated at that level.
So yeah, I'm just saying we have a much firmer ground to stand on than a lot of people realize.
I mean, it's definitely I think the best point you made, fat brother, is at least obviously
the US is 4% of the population.
So there's a lot of people that this doesn't apply to. But in the US, I mean, there's no
question that like the country was founded on the idea of individual liberty and freedom.
And yeah, I mean, if you if you went back 300 years ago, and just tried to explain that,
like, when you're having a conversation, the government is going to like send a agent who's
going to sit there and listen to the conversation, like, it's the same thing or like you're having a conversation, the government is going to like send a agent who's gonna sit there and listen to the conversation. Like it's the same
thing or like you're gonna go to the grocery store and buy something there's
gonna be some dude standing next to you writing down what you bought and logging
it. Like obviously this is like completely anti-American but yeah again
it's all it's done. I think like there's clearly a pretty good there's like the dystopian future is that
you don't regulate just with laws and stuff like this. You just you set up incentives and you do it
by knowing everything about somebody and then you can basically incentivize their actions in like
weird little ways and it's like the reality is, it can be used in theoretically good ways of, you know, okay, you went to Kava
instead of McDonald's today. So your little score just got
bumped up a little bit. And somebody could argue that it's
like, you know, that's a good thing that there was surveillance
and there's the government incentivizes their citizens to
eat healthy. But that's not that's not American. Like
American is the fact that you can just go
to McDonald's every day.
Like you can choose, you are a human with free will
that's put into this world.
We're all somehow here in this weird simulation together.
And you get to choose to do whatever the fuck you want
basically as long as you're not hurting other people.
And like that's to me, that's like American.
Like you could go to McDonald's every single day.
Like we, incentivization and choice can still exist. They can coexist
simultaneously, you know, like we can incentivize healthy
things, but we can also like properly educate like the
hazard potential of other things and like, you know, these
things do exist. Be careful. Like, you know what I mean?
Like, you know what I am. I'm not a fan of the government
getting involved in the incentives and disincentives. I kind of just want the free market to? Like, you know what I am? I'm not a fan of the government getting involved in the incentives
and disincentives.
I kind of just want the free market to do it.
You know, the road to hell.
I agree with your intentions.
Yeah.
Whenever you get the government involved in any of these things,
they're always going to inevitably get to the worst possible outcome.
I mean, you know, when they say slippery slope is a fallacy that
does not apply when it comes to the state.
I mean, it pretty much is inevitable. So guys, I mean, that's probably run into you. We can make all
these arguments about, oh, we could have these good regulators, this and that, yada, yada. Now,
it will always end up in the worst possible. I'm just saying there is an argument for social
credit score that it creates a more harmonious society, healthier society, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm saying there is an argument for that I mean I'm learning a lot on the fly I think that I
think that you know look if you want to live in a dictatorship in in a 1984
level dystopian sort of outcome that's fine you know like there are there are
places for you to go if you want to live in that world. That's certainly not America. You know, I'll remind you that, you know,
the American Revolution was a guerrilla war, right? Like the way that we won the American
Revolution is by essentially like hiding behind rocks and trees
and firing on British soldiers.
Like if you look at the history of like the Battle of
Lexington or Battle of Concord or Battle of Saratoga
or any of these, you know, amazingly fought battles,
you know, from an American perspective,
like we fought by like hiding and and keeping ourselves hidden away from view and
attacking when was most opportune and
America was founded on these like core principles of being able to like do your own thing and
having freedom of speech and
Being able to operate and live in your own life and having a choice of where you live. If I wanna move to a different state,
I can get up and move.
I don't need anyone's permission for that.
I just literally move.
And it's nobody's business that I made a choice
to move from state to state.
And I think that privacy is sort of a basic element
of people being able to have choice.
When you have privacy, you actually have choice. When you don't have
privacy, you actually don't have choice anymore. And so either we live in a society that's a free
society and people have free will and have choice or not. And I think it's basically a binary outcome.
There isn't really a lot of middle ground there. And so I think that default privacy-oriented
technologies are very much an American core value. Bad Brothers brought it up earlier, but in the 90s, we had this
whole fight against the clipper chip. You know, in fact, on WhatsApp, my my my Nick
on WhatsApp is clipper chip McGee, just because I think the clipper chip is so fucking hilarious.
But during the Clinton administration, you know, the government was advocating for essentially a chip back door in every electronic
product sold to Americans.
It was called the Clipper chip.
You can Google it.
And after a long drawn out fight, it was eventually decided upon that they wouldn't implement
the Clipper chip in all technology products sold to the US because ultimately privacy
advocates and freedom
oriented advocates in the United States said this is crazy.
Those same people today would be absolutely railing against products like Ethereum and
these other kinds of things that have effectively made the clipper shift.
Well my point was they were trying to put cryptographers in jail for their iCry.
Yes, 100%.
That's true.
That's true. 100% that's true that's true 100% true in fact a lot of the
cryptography cryptographers had to like fly to Caribbean islands and stuff to
continue their work because they were concerned about getting arrested in the
United States so so yeah this is an ongoing battle and it will continue to
be an ongoing battle and you know, it's a very American battle.
It's a funny thing you say that it's kind of a thing that like personally with me, like I've been helping develop pirate chain, uh, which is like the most
private cryptocurrency blockchain technology.
It's got a, its own consensus mechanism built from scratch.
Pretty cool.
Um, digital Price and Komodo
built pirate chain and and I'm the Digital Price Chief Commander so like
been work with that project for since 2014 but like yeah man like I'm out here
on an island trying to get my shit together build my life get back on my
feet again I'm having of like a thousand dollars yesterday
because powers that be flashing,
bugged out my computer, making shit flash
and calling my phone at the same fucking minute
of the bottom of the fucking turning point in the market.
And I get all these electronic harassments
and I got like these, I don't even know.
Are there any vans outside with people
that glow in the dark inside?
Nah, it's not quite like that, but it is...
It's a lot more intuitive and interesting than just simply that.
But I don't know. It's been recently very interesting.
I, you know, I think...
I think it's best to dance around the detail right now.
And for you know, and we'll we'll have some fun.
This market is about to really like, I think new all time highs are right around the corner
here though.
For most everything actually speaking the devil right?
It's like bitcoins ripping.
It's crazy.
Eighty seven thousand.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I missed it.
Like the today they knocked me.
They shook me out last night.
That's the turning point right now, dude.
We're going to new.
I got taken out at the turning point.
Is that actually true?
Are you making that up?
No, I based my sentiments on technical analysis.
I really don't like to lie at all.
Damn. Robert, what's up't like to lie at all.
Damn. Robert, what's up, dude?
Yo, yo. So just kind of looking to take the other side on the Coinbase, kind of like FUD here.
Like, I don't think Coinbase generally has been like, like a relatively bad actor
in advocating for the right kind of crypto policy, like
advocating for user privacy where they can. Like the reason I brought up TornadoCash is it was actually a Coinbase
funded lawsuit that they won late last year to fight for users being able to actually even use
TornadoCash and remove it from the OFAC sanctions list, right?
And like I guess the, you know, in hearing the chief legal officer talk about this, I think the way they're approaching the products like this is that, you know, we know in the
US there are instruments that need KYC to trade, like for better or for worse, like
I'm not really here to debate that, but to buy and trade US stocks,
you have to be KYC'd. That's just the reality of how things are. And products like this,
that bridge the gap of on-chain KYC trading, enable theoretically trading securities and
these instruments, maybe titles of houses, things like that, that like it's just the law of the land that you need to be doxed to like own and trade these assets.
And like I know that's kind of Coinbase's position to date has been enabling these
applications that like require deep KYC already, right?
KYC already, right?
Look, Robert, I honestly see what you're saying and it's like there's, you know, I
cannot get inside Ryan Armstrong's head and see what his long-term goals are.
He's obviously hopefully aligned with us, but he also runs a company that's, you
know, massively would benefit from the government coming in and
just anointing them as the only way to trade crypto, right?
So it's Sam Bateman Fried tried to do this with his company.
I mean, it's very much makes sense that Brian would try to do it with his company.
The incentive is to do that.
There's this amazing opportunity where like crypto is constantly evolving and growing.
You're probably Brian Armstrong sitting there looking at, you know, Moonshot being downloaded more than Coinbase for this year so far and thinking, hmm, maybe it would
be nice if we got to win in the DEX world as well and could use our kind of KYC infrastructure
and everything.
So I think it just stands to reason that the company that's the furthest along with the
KYC infrastructure and compliance stuff,
which they're making no mistake basis,
their entire marketing pitch to all these companies
is that they're the compliant chain, right?
And then everyone else will be illegal eventually.
Well, that is basically, you know,
they stand to benefit from that world,
you know, being regulated, right?
Where there's this regulatory uncertainty,
nobody really knows right now.
They're setting themselves up to win in the regulated world and
It probably stands to reason that they might want the regulated world to play out
So we'll see what happens again. I'm not
I cannot get in someone's head like it's like can you get in
Trump and putin's hat and understand what their goals are. I have no idea. It's very very hard to tell what people
like kind of deeper down motivations and you know, where they're trying to go are. I think people can
be very inauthentic how they get there. But the point that I'm basically making is that
like, I don't like the general direction. I don't like the general direction. That's
that's
I mean, like, what are the incentives here? Like, Coinbase using this as an opportunity to monopolize the existing kind of very small
DeFi ecosystem?
Or is this a way for them to tap into a hundred times larger market, which is securities and
other hard assets that require KYC?
I think the incentives show that this is a move to crack into a much larger market
and position themselves as a leader in disrupting the traditional stock markets and so forth
versus do everything they can to stifle innovation in the limited asset issuance and training that
we have access to already, which is just you know, like just basically meme coins and like a handful of utility coins, right?
So like, yeah, but those meme coins and handful of utility coins are 100% of coin basis revenue
stream today, basically, and 100% of the crypto market today.
So I agree, there's a theoretical very large opportunity that they're going after.
But the reality is they're like actual bottom line for the next couple of years is this
stuff, right? And they're incentivized to win at that as well while they maybe transition
their business to trading Tesla on chain or something right.
Yeah like yeah fair enough I mean like it's a fair call out but like I think if you you
know like hear what the leaders are saying like in lengthy podcasts that they've done
you know the like Paul, the chief legal
officer has done a multitude of podcasts on this topic, the actual on-chain KYC goals.
And they've stated pretty publicly that they're trying to disrupt these larger markets.
They haven't really been a bad actor to date. Like if you could point to specific
legislation they've funded that would be kind of stifling the growth from the more downside.
I mean, I think both the Fiat 21 bill and both the stablecoin bills have a lot in there that I think
basically imagine regulatory capture. And you know, coinbase has been very jekyll and hyde for me. Like they do do some good things, but like, I don't know,
for me, the breaking point was really the whole election season, the whole
standard crypto thing. And like, I don't know, just the entire strategy with that,
just and what they're pushing for now legislatively, like, well, I mean, like,
again, like, like you said, they do a lot of stuff in the background and they do
fund like a legal defense like this and do all that. But like when I'm looking for like, OK, what is the message just in terms of like what they're trying, what this whole industry is trying to do legislatively and all that.
I'm just not seeing anything beyond like, OK, a strategic reserve, which I feel like just is politically retarded.
Just the whole this whole strategic effort.
And then the stablecoin bill, which doesn't benefit us at all.
Stablecoins work fine.
I mean, if you want to make the case that, okay, government kind of wants, Trump kind
of wants a stablecoin bill, I mean, that's one thing, but it's very hard to get 60 votes
in the Senate by default.
So the idea that, I don't know, that's what you're pushing for and trying to get over
the hump versus either anything else or not getting anything.
I mean, just the actions and some of the things, I don't know if they're just like, um, naive
in some of the political stuff and what they're pushing, whatever, like just in terms of like,
oh, we think we could do this and then maybe later on we can get some of this or if it's
what malice, I don't know what it is, but I can't come up with a good reasoning for it.
It's been my issue with them and pretty much the old industry had a hole the last few months.
Well, it's a whole election pretty much.
I've got a question for Leo.
Yo, what's up, hon?
Yeah, so
what I've been thinking recently, well, I've always had this kind of thing in my mind where your your coins you
I love the the whole Bitcoin ethos, you know, you've got 100% custody
No one has any any access other than yourself, but
But what happens? I've always one of the biggest downfalls of the whole system is
If someone comes and puts a gun to your head and you know, they they take it you don't know who they are
What or say someone stole your car?
So you you you're we're talking about digital ownership say we're talking
about the ownership of a car someone comes and steals your car how can you
verify that that's your car don't you think that having a name or your name on
on that is beneficial in some cases.
Absolutely, and all I'm advocating for is choice.
I don't want it to be that you have to have the name
of the car.
If I want to own a car and not have my name on it,
that's what I want to choose to do,
then I should be able to do that.
That's all I'm ever advocating for is choice.
I'm very aware that like 99% of people who own crypto
are doing it through a custodian,
and then we're like the weird 1%.
That's totally, you know, that's their choice.
Like it's up to us to build a more competitive solution.
Clearly the market is very much liking
the custodial stuff right now,
but people should definitely have a choice,
and the government should definitely not be saying
it's illegal to do this way,
and you have to do it this way.
That's what I don't like.
I mean, really, we're not even like the weird ones anymore.
You know, like in January, Dex volume hit like a relative all time high of over 20%.
Right? Like, you know, we're no longer the weird ones at this point.
Like a lot of people.
Guys, I agree with you guys a lot and I want to continue.
But I like for 20 minutes, I've been wanting to go get some coffee and I don't want to be too rude.
So I'm just going to say right now, like I love you all and I want to have some more of these conversations. But right now
I really also want to go get this durian coffee. I've never tried it before. So I love you
and I have hope you have a good day. Appreciate you dragging.
Yep. By Bitcoin Fox, if you really want to help me in life because that I just Oh my
God, like thank you so much. I love you all
Alright so Robert I think I just looked at others, you know, these numbers are always rough, but there's roughly 560 million people own crypto
It's really like it would be a hard sell that like there's you know, even 10% 56 million people out there like self-custodying
crypto, I mean it's I'm not saying it's impossible, but it just seems like kind of unlikely
that there's that many.
Maybe there is, maybe there is.
But it seems like the vast majority of people
that aren't the kind of cool people that we know
are using stuff like Robinhood and Coinbase
and that kind of stuff, right?
To do their kind of crypto holdings.
But yeah, look, it's interesting, Robert.
You kind of take their word at face value
and I just inherently am not a very trusting individual.
So I'm only measuring by their actions.
And I agree they have a strong track record.
I like Coinbase's actions up to this date.
I think most importantly, look after their customers.
And I think it's important to them that they're serving their customers well.
And I think that's a very important trait for a business.
They're not like finance, I would consider, kind of their customers are like pawns to
make money.
Coinbase probably has more of a true love and care for their customers as part of their
company's culture. And that's great. But yeah, look, I just fundamentally, I'm only looking at
actions. And the specific actions I'm seeing are in the last 10 years, there was no conversation of, hey, let's KYC all of our wallets and
verify Dex pools by the government.
And then I'm seeing the biggest company in the US all of a sudden tweet that this is
their new big exciting approach.
That's very concerning to me as an action.
And yeah, you can come up with many different, oh, this is the good intention, blah, blah,
blah. That's great.
Slippery slope.
Ten years later, we're all trading on KYC wallets on verified pools.
So that's the concern to me is that we're taking a step in the wrong direction with
this.
That's my- I mean, I just, I would, I would really just still push back on this.
Like I would ask to see like the hard evidence that they are literally lobbying for, you know, KYC pools only, right?
Like that's a pretty big assertion you're making here.
And I just don't think it's like based in reality.
So I guess my point would be like, you see, you know, David Sacks coming out and saying, hey, meme coins and NFTs are safe.
Well, what does that imply?
Right?
What does that imply?
That's implying that everything else is currently being scrutinized and there will probably be some sort of regulatory
framework and approval process that probably somehow Coinbase, I would imagine, sits in between
for trading and owning those other assets. That's generally what it looks like is probably
what this legislation roughly looks like
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we just still get to trade whatever the fuck we want in the US
I think that's probably not the likely outcome with this bill and I think Coinbase
Very much stands to benefit if that happens
Inactions I'm looking at incentives and actions, but you're right
I cannot get in the head of Coinbase and see what he, you know, Brian Armstrong is actually
driving towards. I just know what his incentives and actions are.
Yeah, it's still like just very speculative in nature and like the kind of the facts,
right? Like the actions, you know, not just, you know, what they're saying, but their their actions are that they're you know the largest funder of
litigation to
Essentially bring back tornado cash and the ability for US persons to legally
Be able to use these like blending services right like that's the reality
That's that's the action they're doing Robert Robert and Stan Bankman Fried is funding all of this like terrible shit
It's it's the action that they're doing Robert Robert and Sam Bankman Fried is funding all of this like terrible shit It's it's like this is a not
This is not like people, you know, why do like billionaires do like a philanthropic thing? It's it's like
It's not as like I just don't view the world as like
Straightforward as you're saying it's like if you're trying to achieve some outcome in some like complex game theory equation,
you don't just go straight towards the thing.
And again, it's very hard for me to know,
like, okay, great, Sam Bateman Fried says,
we're gonna spend $100 million this year
to doing this thing, like,
okay, that's great that you're doing that,
but the actual situation,
like what are you really driving
towards? It's really hard to know. And I'm specifically just looking at the actions that
they've done in the past week and the incentives that they have as a company to definitely go down
the regulatory capture scenario and secure the future of their company from being disrupted by
scenario and secure the future of their company from being disrupted by, you know,
dexes and stuff, right? Yeah, but so like in the it's it's fair to call out the
incentives here, but like again the real incentives at play here is that
they are positioned to disrupt a massive market, right? And like that is the
true incentive. The incentive and the reason that, you know,
they're legally the sort of board is legally obligated to act in the best interest of shareholders.
Like the best thing they can be doing is disrupting, you know, 100x opportunity. Like that's the
incentive structure.
I agree. There's there's definitely multiple incentives and there's this future incentive and quite
frankly again, I fundamentally do not know what the real thing going on, the real game
they're playing is. I just know that they're introducing these fools, right? And I don't
like it. So we can go back and forth. I'd much rather Coinbase be advocating for wrapping
Tesla shares and not having a bunch
of regulation around it.
Obviously, there's issues around that, but that's what I'd much rather than be advocating
for.
All I'm saying is it's convenient that it's like, why does the US go into the Middle East
and do all these wars?
Well, there are good reasons to do it, but also we can secure very cheap oil.
It's like both things are true and I think the incentives are there.
I think the incentives are there and I think Coinbase definitely benefits in a world of highly regulated stuff.
NKYC being kind of required.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Oh, a bit of echo there.
Yeah, I agree with you. In an ideal world, these guys are championing
charitable endeavors wholly. But I think as any business owner knows, you can't fight every battle.
I think a good comparison would be why does Amazon choose to pay all their employees minimum wage?
It's to stay competitive because they know that they just can't even fight that battle.
They haven't chosen to even take it on because it's an unwinnable game, even though it would be the
preferable approach is that minimum wage gets raised and their workers can have a better quality
of life, but they can't take that on.
And I think same here goes for Coinbase.
They can't just fight the battle of like,
yeah, let's allow everyone non-KYC to hold Tesla shares.
That's just not realistic.
It's probably not gonna happen.
So they need to build this framework
to allow for these more sensitive KYC instruments
to be traded on chain and like that's
where this product fits in. And look I think that's definitely how it starts
fundamentally I very much I'm hoping you're right and we can kind of wrap
this combo up in a sec but basically either you know let's say a year from
now two years from now either you know let's just give SatFlo an example. SatFlo
does the token and if SatFlo is able to do their token in the US
without having to pay lawyers a bunch of money
to go through an approval process
with the government with that,
and you're just able to kind of launch it
how you do it today, right?
And also I'm able to then go to any DAX
and buy that token without being KYC'd and buy it alongside
all the other tokens, then you're right.
And I hope that you're right.
That's basically the point that I'm making.
I'm always extra cautious around this stuff
because the incentives that I've seen building up
in the US for a long time is the SEC
and a bunch of people very much wanting to wrap their
tentacles around all of these coins and all of our deck stuff.
And we know that this is what they want to do because they don't let Coinbase list the
tokens that they want.
So we already know that they don't allow Coinbase to list the tokens.
And I'm sure they want to apply that same thing to the on-chain world.
Of course they do right?
but we will see we will see what ends up happening and coinbase will either you know ally with the government on that and
Or they will align with the kind of web through ethos and we'll see in the coming years
But yeah, I when somebody just you know
Does the tweet saying oh we're for on chain economic freedom and then a from now, they say that we're so it's a bummer that this we lost this fight. I just don't believe those words.
I see them right out in front, ready to set up these pools and KYC wallets and usher that
future in.
And I'm not I don't support that future.
So we'll see what happens.
Time will tell.
What do you think?
What do you think should be in a crypto bill?
So I have a pretty extreme stance here. I don't want a crypto bill, right? I don't want
the government involved in regulating crypto like this. It's like they can have regulations
where it's like you're not allowed to scam people in the US. You can't blah, blah, blah.
That's great. But that should apply to crypto crypto that should apply to other stuff and they can enforce those laws
Regardless of the technology. It's like you can't scam people. You can't lie. You can't do paid shows
Kim Kardashian can't tweet about some makeup products without saying I'm paid to tweet about this, you know
John can't tweet about
Some in FT Bitcoin NFT without saying I was given this NFT.
I'm all for that kind of regulation
because it's not blockchain regulation.
It's like consumer protection laws.
I'm very against the government who is like extremely
out of touch with all this stuff coming in
and like trying to regulate the current state
of this technology.
It's very specific.
And then especially a bunch of like, you
know, custodial industry participants coming in and being
the advisors for that.
I don't think that goes well.
I'm not for that.
I don't want the government doing that.
So the best bill would just be to remove the existing law.
I don't want Trump talking about crypto.
I don't even really want a crypto reserve.
I don't want government federal governments, you know
Getting involved in this stuff. That's my opinion. I think
This is all said and done
You'll just see that they it's just a slow grinding power grab into this attack that they'll do and they'll just
Invisibly add regulations on to all this stuff over time
Do you want stocks to be able to be traded on chain?
Yes. And basically, there's a trade off, right?
It's like there's like two versions of stocks on chain.
Fundamentally, it's like technologically very easy to do.
You know, if Tether has USC wrapped and put on chain,
why can't they wrap a Tesla stock?
It's, you know, they custodian the Tesla shares
and then they issue a token.
It's very technologically easy to do that.
We've clearly got many stable coins.
We could do other assets.
I think Coinbase has a gold.
They just did this too, for example.
So very easy to technologically do.
The only hurdle again is these kind of moron regulators.
And yeah, like I think there's one version where there's no regulation
That's what I want and that version would be that we've had Tesla wrap Tesla
Trading on blockchain for the last as long as we've had tether and then there's another version where it's like a hyper
Regulated version and then it's kind of like what the hell is the point of being on chain? It's like
the the deck like stop working at 5pm Eastern.
Like this is why would I not just use Robinhood or, you know, you trade or something?
Yeah, that's that's a good point.
I mean, fundamentally stocks are there a voting right in a company, really.
So like it sort of centralizes that voting right.
I think that I don't know a whole heap about laws
about holding the laws of who owns each stock.
I imagine that there's some kind of laws
that say that they need to know who owns them all.
Yeah, there's lots of those laws, correct.
So to comply or to be able to legally trade them on chain,
they're gonna need to know who's got them.
So it's like, I don't know how you can get around
what Coinbase has put out there legally
to trade stocks on chain.
Yeah. And look guys, I 100% agree. And like that's obviously what Coinbase is saying.
I am the skeptic that's like questioning that that's their true intentions behind us.
That's all.
I'm sure that is one thing they want to do.
I'm extremely extremely skeptical that if we take that step 10 years from now,
the same thing isn't applying to our doggoys,
right?
Yeah, it's like things have unintended consequences down the track, much like ordinals within
the taproot upgrade.
But yeah, I agree with everything you're saying.
I love it.
I mean, it's not like what I'm saying is crazy, right?
Like the US markets are the most highly regulated financial markets in the world.
And literally, if we had this conversation one year ago,
the stance of the United States federal government was to make Ethereum illegal,
to own without KYC.
So this is not like some crazy thing.
Like this is definitely, I think what there's a lot of forces pushing for this version of
crypto to happen, right?
Okay, we can move on from this convo here.
Jan, were you able to finish your work out?
Are you having a protein shake?
All right, Jan has to put down his weight and join the call again. But Robert,
what's up, man? Are you finished your workout? You're on to your protein shake.
Yeah, I just had some eggs and I'm getting ready to go to work, you know, and this is a great convo. I think, you know, at the end of the day, my point of
view is kind of like in the middle. I kind of do agree with
with both of you guys. I think, you know, they, I don't know,
you don't trust them, obviously, right? Like you're kind of
looking at it from this like very, I'm always skeptical,
though. I don't, I don't, I don't trust massive companies.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's good. Right? Like, it's good to be skeptical unless you're proven otherwise, right?
That they actually have the right intention.
I think that's good.
It kind of pushes them or maybe like hopefully, you know, keeps them in check,
even though I don't know how much power we have over that, right?
Like as this small ecosystem.
But I think like the reality is going to be somewhere in the middle, right?
Even if they had a good intention, there's always going to be some sort of like area where it's not going to be
perfect, right? There's always going to be exploits of that. And, you know,
so I don't think we're going to end up in the perfect world where even if they
wanted to, you know, separate these two things, like,
let's say they want to a hundred percent separate the web three worlds,
the decentralized world, and then, you know, have like,
let's trade everything on the blockchain, like securities and stuff, which obviously has to be regulated very heavily.
Then, you know, there's always, it's not going to be like a hundred percent separated, right?
In a sense, because it's operated by the same company, whatever.
I don't know.
Like, I just don't think we're going to end up in a world where they can run both very
effectively, you know?
So we're going to see, we're going to see what's going to happen.
But it's definitely something that every
single one of the people here on the stage and in crypto should watch, because it's going to affect
us in many ways, especially, I guess you're right, Leo, especially the US citizens.
So yeah, it's an important conversation to be had.
Yep, we will see. I appreciate Robert, Naveen, a bunch of y'all coming up here and contributing to the conversation,
Fiat and I think Bad Brothers.
And again, it's basically a conspiracy theory at this point, but it's a conspiracy theory
that I've been cooking up in my head for a while and, you know, we'll see what happens.
We'll see what happens.
Okay, so trying to think anything else here to talk about.
I know R6 doing their season two in like two or three days.
There's basically no information about it, but that is something that's happening.
I know OCM just announced they're doing their Katochi's mint.
They're doing some sort of mint on April 8th.
Those things are coming up. Didn't really have a whole lot else.
Bitcoin is up man.
Leo, Bitcoin is up. It's like 87k right now.
We got to keep the show going.
We're doing a yeah.
I just checked the price because I was I was getting pretty skeptical man about
Bitcoin because every single person around me, even here this
week, everybody's like, Oh, I'm shorting I'm shorting I'm
shorting we're going to 70k. And I open it. I just opened it like
three minutes ago. And it's like 87. Is that guy like that guy on
hyper liquid? Is he liquidated now? Like I he was supposed to be liquidated.
Because this position yesterday. So he actually made a $9 million
profit. So he was smart. He or she was well, well, $9 million
from $500 million position, man. Like that's pretty bearish to
me, you know.
He basically was just exiting the trade. I'm sure it was
basically a wash. Robert, what's up bro?
Yo, I'm curious. Have we discussed Taproot, Wizards, Mint mechanics and Tokenomics?
I feel like that's a pretty big one that dropped mid-show.
We have not. To be totally honest with you here bro, I'm kind of taking the stance on the show where
we're just not talking about that meant too much.
Somebody came up and tried to shit on it the other day and stopped that.
And yeah, we just kind of avoiding drama situation there.
But yeah, man, if you're into it and want to mint it and stuff, obviously that's awesome.
And yeah, but we're not going to talk about it too much here.
Okay.
So yeah, basically probably a wrap guys.
It's been a, it's been a good show.
We had some, uh, we had some good debating, some healthy, healthy
conversations, and we will see how this all pans out.
We either end up in 1984 or hopefully we save the world.
And I do kind of view it as like those are like the two outcomes, right?
Yeah, we'll see what happens.
We'll see what happens.
I think Trevor, do you want to bring us out here? I think there's a rug in Leo. I hope we end up in 1990k after this space guy is going to hit 90k.
Let's bring it back.
Yann is very bullish. He thinks we can go all the way up to 88k. He said we can get all the way up there to 88k.
I'm going to turn out to be right. You guys are going to be crying in six months from now.
I cannot wait until Bitcoin hits 300k and I just get the wrong, let me see your
mind. Well, man, Bitcoin, Bitcoin is definitely going to go to 300K, but you
know, we are already almost in April this year and we're at 87, you know, so, you
know, my, my bull, my bull case is, it was like around 150K. I believe we can go back to the show and we can like
bring the receipts but like let's see I'm gonna turn out to be right and then you guys
you know you guys will have to give me credit.
So in the I just want to remind everyone that in the last bull run we had a huge correction
that kind of in the middle of it where everything nuked like 70% and then came back to massive
all-time highs.
I'm kind of hoping that's what happens here.
You know, Leo, my position is so great because I actually win either way, you know, either
I'm right.
I thought about that.
You're kind of in a win-win scenario.
Yeah, I'm mocking you about 300k Bitcoin, but then you're like sitting there just like
refreshing your Bitcoin while your ex first of all like oh yeah it sucks that I was wrong
so yeah I agree you kind of went here I think Trevor's right we're just gonna
rug it guys appreciate y'all for hanging out with us this evening we will be back
on Monday at 1030 a.m. Eastern time y'all have a great rest of your week and
weekend go go touch some grass and we'll see you back here in a few days guys have a good one peace
let's fucking go guys
