Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
The Race for Chain Abstraction
Recorded: April 1, 2025 Duration: 1:04:36Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion covers several key developments in the crypto space, including the launch of new projects like the Governor Project and Maverick, which aim to enhance cross-chain control and integrate real-world assets with DeFi, respectively. The conversation also highlights the trend of chain abstraction as a significant focus in Web3, alongside the growth in user experience and adoption. Additionally, the need for collaboration among blockchain projects to address interoperability challenges is emphasized as an industry trend.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're at in this crypto world.
My name is Cody and I will be your host for today's episode of Xtalks.
Thanks everybody for joining and thanks for our panelists for taking time out of their
busy schedule to join us.
We appreciate it.
We know you're busy building in the Web3 space.
So give me one second.
We've got a few stragglers that are waiting to come up on stage.
So let me send them a couple of quick messages,
and we'll be ready to get this kicked off.
If you haven't done so already,
please go ahead and give this space a share.
It definitely helps us with the algorithms
and helps us be able to reach broader audiences as well. So if you wouldn't
mind doing that, I would appreciate it. Give me just one more second. We'll get the remaining people
up on stage. All right, if you're just tuning in, my name is Cody.
I will be your host, and today we are talking about the race for chain abstraction.
race for chain abstraction. I'm definitely joined by quite a few OGs and legends within
the Web3 space. Should be gearing up for a good discussion today. So without further
ado, let's jump in and have them introduce themselves. Let's go with Governor first,
if you want to tell us who's behind the handle and what
your project's all about.
That'd be great.
GM, GM, GM, this is Benjamin Whitby from the Governor Project, and Governor is all about
cross-chain control.
We have this vision of permissionless universal control.
And what does that mean? We have this vision of permissionless universal control.
And what does that mean?
That means unlocking $1.4 trillion of Bitcoin collateral into DeFi.
So as well as doing that, we'll also bring the other tokens with us as well.
So we're targeting $3 trillion.
So not a small task.
Currently, we can do just under $0.7 trillion of liquidity.
And one of the tools that we've got and built that's in play is something that we call JustPay, where you can inscribe a Bitcoin ordinal using any token from any chain.
So yes, the permissionless future is nearly upon us.
Very excited to get into this topic and talk about chain extraction today.
Appreciate you having us here.
Yeah, thanks for being here.
Chainsight, go for it.
Hey, guys.
Happy April.
My name is Masim.
I'm the co-founder for ChangeSight. What we are
is basically we're open data network layer. So whatever you're doing on, you know, whether it's
Oracle, whether it's anything data related, you come into our portal, you spin it off on three
clicks and that's your data. You don't have to give the
key to anyone, you're handling your key by yourself. So that's an easy peasy job for
any of the DeFi, any of the RWA projects, any of the IP projects that want to jump into
it. We do work on multiple chain agnostic, so we work from any evm steps bms to even move languages
so if you people like hitting me up go ahead
awesome awesome well welcome back uh let's go with turn next
hey hello everyone good to be back it seems like I'm having deja vu with all
the speakers up here. Turn! Yeah, we're CryptoMatK here behind the account. Just
finished swimming. I feel great. Stoked for the space. Got that post-workout
energy coming. Yeah, turn. We are in interoperability...
an interoperable
bridge. Yeah, so we have a bunch of
EVM chains on testnet right now.
And we
are, you know, an intense base bridge.
That's what I meant to say. Currently on
testnet, we just launched Blast yesterday.
And so we're up to
five EVM chains that you could swap.
And yeah, more to come on that front.
We're currently figuring out who we're going to launch next week.
So keep your eyes peeled.
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Stoked for this one.
Love it, love it.
Thanks for coming, Matt.
Appreciate it.
Maverick, let's go over to you.
Hey, hey, everybody. My name's Alex Davis. I'm the founder of Maverick.
We're building a layer one specifically designed for integrating real world assets with DeFi.
So not only is it just, you know, oh, look, new layer one.
We've actually built out secondary markets markets within a platform called equities.
So it's basically three DEXs
for our tokenization and deal flow.
We've got about 500 million deal flow
we're going to put through there.
And then we've also built a DeFi banking protocol
called Maven Finance
that you can borrow against
all of your tokenized assets in crypto.
And also it provides data oracles for them as well.
So there's two things you need for a RWA marketplace
that still in 2025 do not exist on a single chain,
which are secondary markets and lending,
we're bringing to the world.
So that's us.
Nice. Welcome back.
I've got that 6 p.m. coffee hitting me right now.
I don't know who said they're post-workout,
but I feel p.m. coffee hitting me right now. I don't know who said they're post-workout, but I feel you.
Nice.
Let's go on to Legend in the group.
Let's go with Joel.
Hey, everyone.
GMGM.
I'm just saying that in case my wife hears me because she gets very annoyed at Web3 talk.
My name is Joel, and I run business development
and marketing for Dash, which is an 11 plus year old crypto that's been focused on being the best
digital cash and payment system in the world for all that time. Instant transactions, super low
fees, privacy. We're actually doing a big privacy overhaul pretty soon actually and uh will be spendable for bills and just about everything
else for um about three billion people around the world and in just a couple months here very
excited about that um if you want to if you're an android user one of the blessed ones um you
should download the dash pay wallet and just you know have a good time friending people you can
actually add say my username there is the same as here.
Just add me, I'll send you some money.
Not much, don't get crazy,
but just show you what a very usable crypto experience
might be like.
So very happy to be here as always.
Hi everyone.
There you heard it.
Joel's gonna give us enough money to retire off of.
Thanks man, appreciate it. I'll be hitting you up later. Let's go with King Snooch. Go for it.
founders and creators and stuff. That's, that's not me. I'm not a builder.
I think the thing that I build is hype for, you know,
cool people like yourself, Cody. So I'll,
I'll say I'm here for the entertainment purposes today and learning.
I'm expecting some banter from you. So I'll, I'll, uh,
I know you'll be behind this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah Alright Let's go with
My good friend
Sir Choice
How are you?
Hey Cody
Always excited to be here with you
Man, I was already getting pumped
With the people
You know, doing the workouts
And having the coffee
But when they talk about giving money
Sign me up
That's way too work it then just kidding
up senior choice here i've been a bd in this space for long i've been you know community manager
play through and coach i'm all about gaming but i believe chain abstraction is a very important
topic so i'm here for you i'm here for you cody always highlight your your hosting skills yesterday
i was talking with some friends and, you know,
it's always you and Mr. Consul, Marcello,
the people that's coming up on top of my head when it comes to, you know,
handling spaces in an amazing way.
So shout out to you too.
Thank you for having us.
And yeah, the fam is here.
It's how I always decided to talk to you guys,
to share with you guys and learn from you all.
So let's have a beautiful space today.
I wish they had a blush emoji I could throw out there man much love much love uh looks like the boss
is in the house you want to go for it my friend hey what's up everybody it is kawaii boss hey you
guys know me in a different name but uh so anyways yeah yeah, I'm building on quiet network guys don't know they're gonna be bringing the energy dollar
You know, obviously not like Luna much different
We they tried that before
but yeah, no, I'm here building you know, this is a
project I guess kind of represents the co-founder of
Quiet network which is uh you know very prestigious
person that connects with some pretty big people i know turn work with polka dot so you know
there's some level there um but yeah no i i'm in the space i'm quite uh well known but i'm using
a different account building on coin network now uh but yeah you guys want to have me on here i
could wrap at the end and i'm pretty pretty informed about chain abstraction using third web.
I spoke to them earlier this week and yeah, I'm down to talk about some chain abstraction ideas.
Love it.
Love it.
Yeah.
As you guys can see, we definitely have a great panel of OGs and legends out on this panel.
So if you haven't done so already, give them a follow.
They definitely deserve it for taking time out of their busy schedules.
Likewise, thanks to all of you that are tuning in.
If you are tuning in right now, my name is Cody,
and I will be your host for today's episode.
Definitely give this space a retweet and a share. Definitely helps us
with the algorithms as well. So with that being said, let's kind of jump into the race for chain
abstraction. So the very first question I have to kick this whole thing off is, you know, there's a
lot of things that are being chased in Web3 and in crypto.
Specifically, do we feel that chain abstraction is the holy grail that we're all after?
Turn, go for it.
Yes.
I yield my time.
I freaking love you man yeah yeah no uh uh yeah jokes aside like yeah i think uh that's that's where we're all
inevitably heading everyone that is building any sort of protocol that that helps with um
with bridging or abstraction like it's all kind of a race to the bottom, a race to zero
in terms of protocol fees and everything like that.
The analogy I always use that I've been using since,
I don't know if I said it here last week,
but it's like you're using the app on your phone
to swap USD to Euro on Revolut.
I believe we're all familiar with Revolut here.
You press a button and you get your Euros when you sell your USD or vice versa.
There's a lot of plumbing that happens in the background, so to speak, that helps make those swaps a
reality. What do you think about bridging or using anything in Web3? I mean, we all
know how difficult it is and clunky in certain scenarios. It's just very new technology.
We don't have that plumbing at the moment, but you best believe there's a bunch of plumbers going to
trade school right now getting ready to build out the next generation of more efficient plumbing.
And it's happening in real time. I've been saying this since last cycle, and it's incredible to see
how far we've come in terms of ease of use case and signups and, um,
ability to transact on chain.
you know,
it's,
it's only been a few years and,
and it's,
you know,
up only seemingly,
but yeah,
I think the user experience has been,
significantly improved.
And I think that's,
that's where we're heading with the race for chain abstraction.
Anyway.
Yeah.
TLDR. Yes. Yeah. Thanks for the abstraction. Anyway, yeah, TLDR, yes.
Yeah, thanks for the time.
I'm actually going to flip it back to you because, Matt,
I think you do a great job of explaining a few things.
So for those that are just newbies that are tuning into this episode,
what does chain abstraction actually mean?
Oh, boy, you put me on the spot.
Yeah, I mean, like,
it's abstracting,
it's making
use case for
crypto as seamless
as possible, right? So like, right now
everything is
kind of broken up
in their own, fragmented is a good word up in their own systems.
Everything is a system within a system.
If you're new here, you could think of your Bitcoin as a certain currency that has its own ecosystem, as does Ethereum, as does Dash, as does Solana.
And they all have their own tools and financial products and onictions experienced by the user for engaging with each of the chain's cross-chain capabilities.
So that, I think, is a good, well-fleshed-out explanation without sounding like a dictionary or a ChatGPT answer
here. So, yeah.
So, basically, that takes away the term ChainMaxi and just makes it Web3 Maxi?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like on-chain Maxi. Yeah, whatever you want to call it. It's just like, I mean, to be, it's kind of like the HTTPS
protocol when you type in your website on the URL field on your web browser, you don't realize
you're going to a secure website, but there's plumbing in the background that ensures that you
get sent to that secured website, but no one really knows what the difference is
between http and https they just kind of go along with it because that's just like what the user
experience is so like imagine that but scaled out to finance matt i think you just got the clip of
the day seriously that was like total inception deep deep rabbit hole. Just be.
Just be.
Love it. Thanks.
I don't know who had their hand up first, Governor or Joel,
but you guys can battle it out to see who goes first.
I'm happy to let Joel speak.
Well, maybe you won't be,
because I could take the bear take on this one um yeah so is hopefully
chain of trash is not really the future or hopefully we don't really need to rely on it
so um i do believe it is very like it's important i do think it has its place i do think it's going
to be very important in an interim step but uh at the end of the day um it's going to be very important in an interim step but at the end of the day it's extremely
hard to fully abstract the various nuances of different chains because there's always some
sort of an incompatibility somewhere there's always some little quirk the way this token works
or that one that's there's always somewhere and you basically have to have a universal ecosystem where every single
payment provider every single app every single dex every single everything has all the same
conditions and supports all the exact same chains and the same ux and everything or i mean just the
other day a friend of mine was trying to withdraw usd, I believe, or on Arbitrum and swap it for something
else. And it wasn't working because they got the wrong USDC on Arbitrum. It was like USDCE
on Arbitrum. And that's somewhere where that chain has been abstracted in a lot of
UX as to where they just got the wrong thing and then there's some like
missing compatibility under the hood one thing for sure is um if someone has been in the space for
using crypto at least for like 12 years there's the more magical experience gets the more stuff
you have to hide from the user but when things go wrong that's when the magic turns into a nightmare
where i like to be
able to use a block explorer and look at where's transaction on the blockchain i like to be able to
see the things etc because i'm used to troubleshooting when things go wrong now if you
just hey send money and it's like boom all right well it didn't work then why didn't it work and
you have to first figure out which chain it is then you got to figure out uh
what conditions what was the gas fee what was the compatibility on this etc etc and um i'm kind of
reminded also of the legacy fiat payment systems there's nothing like the card system sucks it
just does because you have obviously the issuing bank then then you have the main card provider, like Visa, MasterCard, etc.
Then you have another issuer beyond that.
And then you have to go through, for example, Google Pay or Apple Pay.
And then you have to make sure that it's supported with, if you have a wearable tech, that's a different layer of things.
Like Wear OS, not all point of
sale terminals except that. And then you have to see, do they accept Google pay? What about,
is it a prepaid card? What are the conditions for this? What are the holds on this? And
all at the end, all the end user sees it just declined and it's terrible. And so you have to
be like a real expert to kind of like dig through that and sort of figure everything out.
I do think that you can successfully abstract everything away for most cases.
The problem is all that work that you spend doing that.
You could have like invented something truly amazing when the problem you're trying to solve for is kind of an inherited problem from the top two cryptos, Bitcoin and Ethereum, not really doing their job super well.
So people have to use a million alternatives and we're scrambling to find something that actually works.
So instead of just sending Tether on Ethereum or sending, you know, DAI or whatever, you have like a million different chains.
You've got to kind of abstract amongst and
then i there's just so much time and innovation that's being worked on to abstract away this
problem that doesn't necessarily need to have and i think kind of in the long term won't have
so uh the a whole idea of we of chain abstraction being the future on one level, it's kind of nonsense.
It's kind of like NGMI, it's kind of not good.
I'm kind of bearish.
But that being said, this is a real problem today
we do have to deal with.
And I really salute everyone
who's trying to solve this problem.
And I have really,
I have promoted chain abstractive services plenty
in the last few months.
We're just where we have to be. And we're going to have to kind of deal with that at some point.
But yes, chain abstraction is very important. I think its importance is way overblown today,
as far as it's like everything. You kind of, everyone, you kind of need it everywhere.
Whereas in the future, hopefully it'll have like a much smaller role
where you mostly get to just use one chain for a period of time.
And then whatever motion between one or the other
is kind of a more rarefied occurrence.
It's not quite as common.
So sorry for that ramble.
No, I'm glad you went there.
I mean, I was expecting Mark to take it there,
but apparently he's he's uh i was
chomping at the bit i ain't gonna lie but i let him cook i love it i love it i love it all right
uh let's go with governor i mean that was a spicy taste wasn't it um i mean how do i answer that i
kind of agree in so many different ways that chain abstraction is broken.
I don't think that we need to solve every single problem.
It will be the main channels and the main positions that need to be solved.
But as a user, users don't really care about any of this.
They don't care about most people when their payment fails.
They don't have to go off and troubleshoot because they've got other people to come off and manage that kind of relationship with.
The challenge is obviously as we get into more nuanced crypto DeFi positions,
you do have to take responsibility for that type of deep dive and the deep analysis
in terms of looking at block explorers but you know we see a world and we're observing this world
today where we are um all seeing more chains being created every day there's another chain um there's
a lot of different reasons for those chains coming into existence predominantly i would
say it's to do with uh mev capture because there's so much opportunity there and the ability to um
utilize collateral that is just trapped you know the first thing that a chain typically does when it instantiates itself is build a bridge to Ethereum or a bridge to Bitcoin.
Some chains exist predominantly and primarily to bridge into Bitcoin, and that's it. it so you know there was a very real need to try and unlock this collateral this this this asset
class that is perceived as valuable by the world now that is effectively a lazy asset class in many
different ways there are other different blockchains that are doing different things.
As we step forwards, we get much closer to a Web2 type experience where just everyday business is being conducted on the internet. Chris Dixon tells us evolving from read to write to own,
and then subsequently to delegate as a lot more automation comes in.
And at the end of the day, users don't care.
They want their stuff.
They just want it to work and they just want their stuff.
They won't be interested in gas payments.
They won't be interested in chain abstraction.
They won't be interested in chain abstraction.
They won't be interested in anything.
They won't be interested in anything.
So we have to build all these complicated tools
to make sure that the value and the things
that they want to do can be done in a very frictionless way.
I think we're a very, very solid step forwards
towards that vision.
There were lots of different tools that are coming through,
like shared sequencing, like chain abstraction tools,
like Aglaia conversations, et cetera, et cetera.
Where it gets much more tricky is where you've got blockchains that really
don't talk to each other and have taken very,
very... Well, no blockchains talks to each other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you're right.
You know, the blockchain is kind of isolated in its own kind of environment.
It's, it's an island, isn't it?
But with the concepts of shared sequencing that could actually join things up.
And then, of course, you've got Cosmos with IBC as well.
Well, IBC isn't really sharing.
And it's sort of to dive into it, because when you get into, like, every blockchain,
we're building a new blockchain.
And the reason why every blockchain builds a bridge to Ethereum right away is mainly because there's liquidity on Ethereum.
And the reason why they do that with Bitcoin is either because their Bitcoin max is wanting to build out the Bitcoin ecosystem or connect to Bitcoin for liquidity.
So the reason, you know, most blockchains choose EVM because they're lazy.
Effectively, you just copy paste whatever was built on Ethereum and you put it onto your own chain.
I think we don't need all of these layer twos i don't necessarily consider the current implementation of layer
twos as blockchains as opposed to just centralized execution environments and so um there there's that
bit when it comes to chain abstraction to circle back to the original question um it's there's
i don't think chain
abstraction as as big of a deal as we think about
it for for mainstream
adoption. The bigger problem with mainstream
adoption is we don't have
products on blockchain yet.
Like everyone who's building today
mostly doesn't build a product.
I mean, I do.
Actually, I do have a product online.
Actually, you block for attestation for RWA is just to mention like your products that you're mentioning, right?
Yeah, I mean, I'm over exaggerating a little bit on this, right?
If you look at 99% of products there, you know, everybody's doing an infra play with no like we're launching an L2 with nothing on it. I know. It's so previous market, you know what I mean?
Like the last bear market
was like all infraplay
and now it's like
we need these tools
to build on top
of these actual products.
Like it's kind of nonsense.
But yeah, I do agree.
There's a lot of like
willy-nilly chains popping up.
Yeah, and it's ridiculous
because one,
you've got teams who are lazy and two, you've got predatory VCs who are's ridiculous because one you've got teams who are
lazy and two you've got predatory vcs who are like oh you've got a tge i'm gonna buy into your round
we're gonna dump on retail and we're gonna you know dump your token no one builds an economy
because the teams and the vcs got rich the users got rugged and that's about it so there's like
the one of the reasons why chain abstraction really isn't the be end all is
that you, chain abstraction only matters when you actually have products for mainstream
users to use.
I guarantee you, if you get regular mainstream users, a product that enriches their lives,
they will learn how to use it, even if it's a little bit more difficult.
Now, I'm not saying we should ignore the difficulties of consumer experience of blockchain,
but we should, you know, for example, if you just like fire blocks and web three off, they have embedded
MPC wallets that is effectively chain abstraction for most users. You get some of the native gas
token into a wallet like that. They log in their email and password. They have no clue they're
using the blockchain until they need to top up their gas. Or you build a gas station so they can just like kind of put USDT and then it swaps over into the,
you know, to pay for the gas fees there.
So chain abstraction doesn't have to be done on the native layer necessarily for mainstream adoption from users.
You can kind of hide that in the back end with third party systems.
But it's the, if you think about chain abstraction or like blockchains not speaking to each other, no blockchains speak to each other.
Every blockchain needs a bridge in order to bridge liquidity across, which is why I think there's a remarkable, remarkable space, open, like let's say open space for someone to launch a chain where you can kind of like wormhole.
You can bridge USDT on Solana to USDM on ETH, for example.
There's no real great bridge
in that sense but it's getting close getting close like flying bridges and uh being completely
abstracted at this time i know i know turn is very well known for their ideas what i'm going
with this is is that when you have when you send venmo from one person to another, you don't Venmo them from Venmo app to another app.
That's not Venmo, it's app to app.
And so there is none of this like,
whether that Venmo app is on Android or iOS,
it doesn't matter.
But this idea of like this completely open economy
that will go from phone to phone and bridge across
and yada yada, let's just get the basics in
of getting a consumer application
and enriches people's lives,
even if it's within the same ecosystem,
hide the blockchain side in the backend with an NPC wallet,
and then you're mostly fine.
So I agree that chain obstruction can happen
in multiple ways, but what I think it needs to be done in consumer products that people will actually use.
Otherwise, it makes no difference.
Well, I think to your point as well is there, you know, you take a look at Web 2 and, you know, everything that you guys are saying with not, you know, being able to abstract everything, being able to communicate with other products and having consumer products that people
are using. I mean, it's still even a problem today in Web 2 is just like these big, these bigger
companies or even these SaaS products don't really communicate or play nice with one another in terms
of integrating or even communicating with another, another product. So, I mean, when it comes to that kind of concept, I mean, abstraction is
across the board regardless. I think that there's a lot of things that we could take from Web 2,
obviously, right? And as we're building out Web 3 and blockchain technology and what that needs
to look like, because that's what everybody wants,
is to be able to have a data-owned, have it all seamless, have it all work together.
But unfortunately, we're complexing it ourselves by building more and more stuff that just
automatically creates all this need for more solutions, which creates these bolt-on kind of experiences um
that is not kind of that intuitive seamless uh kind of flow that we're looking for in user experience
but uh yeah great take so far uh let's go boss you got your hand up yo hey um no i'm just trying
to buy stuff at the store without having to worry about crypto, you know, I mean
That's like the biggest like go to like I know Joelle knows about bit refill
We've talked about in the past but like just having like these completely
abstractions of using the technology itself
Well, you don't want to know that that you know this crypto in the behind the scenes is being transacted in the USDT version
Whatever wrapped, you know, I don't want to know that but like as a as a i guess developer in the space it is cool to have
all these little like wraparounds and bridging and whatnot i follow the architecture so when it
comes to like you know the architect himself when he's building you know the ground level i'm
following that you know like evm obviously is like liquidity uh ethereum will always have its play in
that sense because it's highly centralized but like when it comes to like these side chains and wrap
tokens like it's really unnecessary and like mentioned before like you guys were saying like
we need kind of like the one chain as unified that
speaks i guess i don't know if it was mentioned but like speaks to other chains and that's i think
joelle was mentioning that um basically it's just like a liquidity chain you know like unit chain
you know like uniswap's chain like that's going to be like the chain that speaks to all you know
using its you know liquidity pools you know obviously cross-chain swaps messaging bridges higher quality bridges obviously like uh axie infinity bridge kept keep on getting
hacked by lazarus you know we need to focus on the messaging you know obviously i was in the polka dot
ecosystem they speak on chain using messaging protocols you know that's important um you know unified chains in uh
let's say omni chain or not omni chain but um uh optimism you know optimistic chains they're all
trying to build the super chain polygons doing their um you know ag layer chains you know they're
all trying to create these unified chains because we all know these chains are completely fragmented
you know Bitcoin itself is creating eventually cat 20 compatibility for smart contracts obviously
nobody wants that for the Bitcoin and maxis but like chains like bells coin or even doge like
they they're gonna be utilizing cat 20 smart contracts. So that allows, you know, these smart contracts to speak to other chains, you know, obviously it's not the
same language, but there is some type of like compatibility,
like smart contracts do make some decision-making the backend.
But like I was mentioned earlier about like third web,
this is kind of where we're doing. We're abstracting like, you know,
for wallets and whatnot,
third web allows you to kind of have like this pseudo user kind of where we're doing. We're abstracting like, you know, for wallets and whatnot, third web allows you to kind of have like this pseudo user kind of experience
where it abstracts complete everything in the background. And then for us,
we can use it for like RWA products to, for attestation,
to prove verification for physical products. That's kind of like the go-to,
you know, for RWAs. But when it comes to like real world use case,
like I want to go buy some candy bar at a store not be like oh I have to have my Bitcoin it
takes like 20 minutes to transfer they're like oh did it confirm on chain
yet like no I don't want to deal with that like no one says oh you have
compatible USDT and like arbitrum or some like you know wrapped version of
whatever like that to me is like it's what we're doing now and that
fragmentation is good for speculation for you know for profit but for real world use case like joel
was mentioning we don't need any of this like in the end abstraction for chain is not even needed
um because in real world use cases we don't care about what protocol for tcp ip or https like these are use useful intranet
you know for like the greater use of like internet but no one really cares at the end of the day you
know what i mean like i just want to go to website and just you know log in and i don't have to have
the crypto wallet attached to it or anything well just on that point actually no one really
well just on that point actually no one really no one who doesn't understand crypto is gonna walk
into you know their local gas station by twix bar be like do you accept solana for real yes
only a solana maxi would do that and it yeah it's one of those things like i was at a a party at
token 2049 in someone's penthouse last year. And this, this person comes up to me and
was like, Oh, I'm a crypto. I like, I, I'm a crypto user. I'm like, Oh, okay. Like, so like,
like, what do you use? She goes, well, I bought Bitcoin on Coinbase. I'm like, well, you're not
exactly a crypto user. Like you're an investor. You've speculated, you've invested, but you're
not a user per se. And like, these people are not going to go and be like I'm going to go buy a new iPhone with
Bitcoin right Bitcoin also is kind of moving away from like this idea of currency as opposed to
like almost like a mix between a currency and a reserve asset like a right store value asset where
yes like some of its fundamental properties such as 10 minute blocks and six block finality
is actually better as like
higher level transactions and gold. You might buy a car with Bitcoin. You might buy a house with
Bitcoin. But you're currently, very nice, by the way, currently, it's not really going to work
like that. And also when it comes to merchants, merchants want the local currency that they accept in their regional economy right that's why like
ethereum worked in as a currency in its own economy and solana works as a currency in its
own economy maverick will be a currency in its own economy but no one in dallas texas when you go up
to go buy coca-cola at the station, you go up to them and say,
hey, do you accept shitcoin number 432? And they're going to be like, yeah, I want to accept
shitcoin 432. No, if anything, it's going to swap into a USDT, USDC, some stable coin,
then swap into fiat and it'll give the merchant fiat until the entire US system or some company
comes that can abstract that merchant payment system. That'd be one thing. But until the entire US system or some company comes that can abstract that merchant payment system,
that'd be one thing. But until the United
States accepts something other than
USD or banking railways,
you're not going to be able to use
EOS tokens
to buy Coca-Cola.
Yeah, I still have some EOS.
A little bit in the background somewhere.
So that has actually been made not for eos but i have gone to quite a few small business and been like hey do you accept crypto and pitched them on it and some say yes not many but some
yeah but also for what though like the people that accept crypto because they
want either a couple of reasons.
Let's say if you're in West,
like the United States or Europe,
they accept Bitcoin and crypto
because you have large transaction sizes
or two, because they're fans of crypto
and want to build adoption.
Most places like in Dubai,
you can buy a car with Doge if you want to.
The car dealership doesn't accept Doge.
There's a third party intermediary in between
that swaps it into fiat for but it it's it's not this um this idea of anything but let's say stable
coins at the current moment becoming uh a means of payment is kind of bs that's true i mean when
i went to eltso when you talk to merchants because they were allowing
bitcoins like it was just a hectic you know conversation it was like yeah i i do have to
receive bitcoin but doing otc like i don't know how to make it into fiat because i need to live
on a day-to-day basis i need to to buy milk. I can't really purchase milk with my Bitcoin
if I go to the convenience store next door.
So it was, yeah, I mean, there's always going to be that,
you know, heck, if we're talking about users aspects,
yeah, cross chains, chain abstractions,
it's not working.
It just needs to be very seamless, one chain, all over.
So great points so far.
I definitely have some follow-up stuff for it,
but we've got a few hands up that I want to make sure that we get into the conversation.
So, sir, Choice, go for it.
Joel's ears are burning.
Thank you so much.
Go ahead, Choice.
Appreciate it.
So, I think the question one was if the chain abstraction is the holy grail.
I believe that the holy grail is actually the mass adoption.
It's bringing liquidity from the whole world, not just a few people using crypto,
but everybody, one way or another, interacting with it.
I think that Matt put the example in the best way.
It's like when people
interact with regular web through the internet. They don't need to know about protocols. And you
got your UX UI expert wanting to simplify the way that people interact with crypto as a whole.
And I think that there's a lot of people pushing towards that and chains actually
kind of complicating it to some degree because they all
want secure transactions within their own protocol levels because that's the way they become profit
right so it's hard for them to say hey you know what i'm gonna give up on my profits and just
share them with other chains because i'm cool like that people are creating businesses here
and that for me is going to be a key um you know, friction challenge that we have to face.
But there are protocols that will be able to, you know, abstract the complexities.
And there will be projects that will allow tokens to be deployed, not just in a single chain, but become chain agnostic.
I'm a believer of that chain agnostic future, where projects won't have to deploy the same token with
a different contract address or two different chains because they didn't know to pull it through
with just one i mean we're at a point where the tech needs to be ready to do that mass onboarding
that we need and therefore i believe that the bridge to make things seamless for people is
definitely changing fraction i don't think that there has to be just a single one change.
I think that Layer Zero and Third Web are great examples
of projects that are removing the complexities
and just letting builders develop tools and protocols
that will allow the users to transact across different chains
without worrying much about what's happening in the backend,
but also letting them know what's happening in the backend
if they have the knowledge and they want to dig deeper.
It's just like when you go in developer mode on your browser.
At first, you don't see what's happening in the backend,
but if you have the knowledge and you're interested,
you can also go and check.
So it's not like you're also going to close the doors on,
hey, what happened?
How much did I pay for the gas?
From what chain to what chain did it move?
What was the cost of the whole transaction to put this stock in from X to Y?
You're still going to be able to check that out.
But definitely for the end user, this is going to be very important
so that they don't have to struggle with a lot of the things
that they are struggling with at the moment that for sure have improved so much.
But we're going to see it getting even better to the point that, indeed,
it's going to be as useless as just using regular internet.
I think that one good example, to put it, would be languages.
The whole world doesn't speak English.
Yeah, it's an international language, and that's how most of the people can communicate.
And most of the buildings in the space kind of have to have that one person or several people from their team that can speak the language.
Maybe they are not all as fluent. Maybe they don't all have the right pronunciation or accent, but they can communicate on that single language.
And then it's okay for them to leave or come from places where they actually speak different languages, right?
We cannot expect the whole world to say, hey, you know, it's only English in that scene.
There are challenges for that.
And every language or every chain
will come with their perks and pros and cons.
And, you know, one language is beautiful for music,
one language is beautiful for poetry,
one language is beautiful for just speaking and communication.
I think that it's going to be the same with chains.
I don't think that we just have to say,
hey, just give the future for our one chain to rule them all like a lot of the ring style. I think that it's going to be the same with chains. I don't think that we just have to say, hey, just give the future for our one chain
to rule them all like a lot of the ring style.
I think that it's just improving the communication
across chains that's going to make the experience
better for the user.
That's actually a brilliant way of putting it
because if you think about languages in the world,
English is used by everyone,
but if you want to keep something,
like it's not a good language for security
because everyone understands you, kind of like, like it's not a good language for security because everyone understands you.
Kind of like how solidity is not a good language for security
because it's just not security focused.
But, and yeah, there's tons of, like,
there's no such thing as one chain to rule them all.
The same way that not everybody drives the same car,
not everybody likes the same color of clothes.
There's more than one clothing company in the world,
so I think, or phone company or computer
company, so you nailed it with that. Totally, totally. Spoken by a true legend, for sure,
Sir Choice. You definitely brought this home, and kind of where I wanted to take this conversation,
and I'm glad it got brought up, was it's just like with what Maverick just said, you know, it's not just one chain to rule them all.
It's the illusion.
It's the kind of experience of having one chain by uniting them all.
I mean, a lot of people that know Layer 1X, that's what we're all about.
That's true to our ethos of what we're all about
is basically uniting all of the chains.
We're not here to compete.
We're here to unite.
And, you know, we consider ourselves that universal language, that universal translator of all the different chains because we are EVM and non-EVM compatible.
EVM compatible. I mean, that's paramount. And where we can move not only data, I mean, assets,
I mean, that's paramount.
we can also move data and logic. And that brings up the big thing that you said right there,
is that people don't care. They just want to know that they're getting secure transactions.
transactions. And that's why we're 100% bridgeless. And I mean, bridges are a great kind of
placeholder, I guess you could say, for being able to interact and try to create these seamless
interactions. But it does definitely open up a lot of risk with that. But, you know know that's why we're focused on 100% bridge lists
interoperability so and we've definitely got some cool stuff coming down the pipe
as in terms of quantum interoperability and security because we're all about
security on that fashion so great great takes Sir Choice and Maverick let's go
over shoot it over to joelle and then
we'll go to governor then boss yeah so really quick because we mentioned the the merchant
part of things um i kind of i pinned a tweet there was a few years ago when cnn did a little
segment on myself spending crypto all over the place. And merchants largely are followers, as in if people
want to give them money, they will take the money as long as they can and it's feasible.
One thing I kind of noticed is in the early days of crypto adoption, people, you know,
standardize Bitcoin, whatever, but mostly people would just take whatever. If it's crypto,
they'll take it and then they'll figure out if they need to swap it around after that. But the big thing is
there has to be demand from the consumer. People wanting to spend it, people will do it. But also
as far as like the chain abstraction thing, kind of tying that into everything, chain abstraction
on the, it's not so much of a bridging, it is bridging chains, but it's also more bridging users
where if I have token X and I want to interact
with someone else and they're a token Y user,
they shouldn't have to deal with token X
no matter how abstracted a way it is.
So that's kind of where I think the
friction points start to really accrue is if everything seems standardized, abstracted,
whatever, but then under the hood, someone who is not into this thing starts to deal with it
unknowingly. And then that's when the friction happens. So for example, if someone only wants
Solana, that's all they're about. They're this proverbial Solana maxi. They should be able to
pay with Solana or any, if they're into paying with it, right? Obviously they do all their own
stuff in their ecosystem. They should pay with Solana and they should get paid and receive Solana.
And then that's it. And for their world,
they don't have an extracted world.
Their world is 100% in what they want.
And it's just that they don't maybe realize
that if they're paying a merchant
or they're interacting with someone else,
that then another chain is what the other person uses
or comes from another chain, gets swapped somewhere.
But it just, if you start to say, like, let's just say I have USDC NOBL, it's one of them
Cosmos things, right?
If I want to send that to someone who has, you know, USDC just on Arbitrum, regular old
style, they should not have this weird addendum kind of point.
They should just get exactly the one they want.
And at that point, there's no
chains to abstract for them. They still have what they want. The abstraction is the translation
point. It's just like with language thing. Once you translate anything, whoever's reading it
should just have it in the language that they want and just deal with it. They shouldn't have like, well, I have this thing. It's actually in Russian, but like every time I look at it,
it has to like translate a certain way. It's like, no, you translate it on the way in and now that's
the text you have to deal with. And then when you go out to someone, it might translate into
Swahili from there, but then it stays over there. You don't store it in a foreign language, so to speak,
and then just have to like real time abstract away
that it's foreign language,
because that's when all the UX problems start to happen.
Dude, send me your wallet.
I'll send you some cash.
Cause you just definitely hit what layer one X is all about.
By the way, that wasn't a paid advertisement by any means.
No, I'm just kidding not not yet
uh for sure all right boss let's go with you my friend
um yeah so i wanted to touch on like just some of those ideas i was talking about like the
like the complete like like protocol level messaging i know i know like everything's
like chain abstraction i might as well talk about like more of the deep technology aspects um i mean there's pretty much two on the
board right here because evm obviously is going to be here but i know substrate i know turn knows
about substrate um that to me is like the bigger bigger picture because the architect decided to
build his own you know whole chain and new kind of layers but like the whole
point is like using a kind of base layer that speaks to everybody you know like you can see
that with midnight with uh with cardano you can see that with um i think there's some other chains
i forgot off the top of my head but basically they're just using protocol level messaging in
the sense of like complete chain abstraction.
I mean, overall, right now it's really super jargon.
But in the end, there's going to be a handful of messaging
that speaks to these chains.
Obviously, they need to build the router and these types of relayers
and whatnot that speak to these chains. But there like a base layer you know previously using like solidity but now they're
like using you know rust and like wasm web assembly to create these like chains which is like highly
scalable solana is obviously you know the one of the biggest chains and it uses rust so it's like
chains and it uses rust so it's like you know when we come to like compatibility like as a
developer you want to have like cross cross the across the plane here because like web assemblies
compatible with like microsoft you know apple like you know like these are these are conglomerates
you know like they're using you know rust
essentially because it's highly scalable the language is highly programmable but like you
know obviously there could be some there's a lot of errors there you can create a lot of errors but
there's a lot of like uh scalability to it so yeah i mean right now chain abstraction seems like a
great idea which i love i use it for things like third web
or like Magic Link previously to you know for like
verification for products
but when it comes to like the chains themselves like
There's just like a handful, you know, and if Cardano is using substrate as a sidechain
It really speaks that the technology is moving towards a certain direction where compatibility
is across the board and
fragmentation is
adjacent, hopefully
in the future
that everyone's kind of moving towards the right
direction, but like yeah
I mean having these EVN chains and
you know another one spinned off to have
all these liquidity locked up
you know like Ethereum Classic or like locked up, you know, like
Ethereum classic or like EOS or you know, these kind of like
First or second generation blockchains like they're all gonna be irrelevant, you know, I think the liquidity is gonna just move over in general
You know, we've seen this at the Ethereum and you know, if the ends kind of soaked up a lot of that
But you know, it's like having these unified chains and you you know like none of it's gonna really matter at the end but at this point
you know we're all basically benefiting from these transactional fees and all this gas in the back end
you know it's it's good for the space it draws us all into the space to earn a you know living you
know but like real world use case
you know none of it really matters but like i do appreciate like what we're all building you know
that's i'm doing the same thing you know i've been in this kind of bridging layer one layer zero
layer negative one which is what gavin wood is pretty much building or like evm space and you
know having these like messaging through these like uh fragmented chains
you know finally you know like say like stellar or something or like q tom or quantum or something
you know like or dash you know dash has been there forever you know it's like uh you know
there's established chains you know that's kind of gone through all these you know phases so
we will see what happens next but uh i i do see you know there will be like a handful of chains if if they're called
chains you know basically frameworks protocols whatever you want to call them tools uh or
payment processors essentially visa you know alternatives on the blockchain you know these
will exist beyond like what blockchain is
called now, you know? So anyways, I can wrap at the end when you guys are done, if you want.
We'll throw it back to you here in just a minute. But yeah, totally agree with you, my man. I mean,
that's why we've spent the last five years building from the ground up our own VM
and consensus, right? Because that's the only true way to really be able to
solve this interoperability problem. Because a lot of these chains are just, like you said,
copying and pasting. I can't remember if it was you or somebody else was just saying,
getting lazy and copying the EVM kind of VM and things like that just to make their chain kind of thing. But yeah, in order to get true native bridge list thing, you definitely got to build it up.
And Rust is definitely the way to go, in my opinion.
That's where we're all built on.
Governor, my friend, go for it.
I'll keep this quick because we're running out of time coming to the top of the hour.
I think it's been a great conversation.
I think a lot of people are on board in terms of the direction that we're going to go in,
in terms of outcome-based.
If you want Solana, you get Solana.
If you want Bitcoin, you get Bitcoin.
We, as a human race, have solved this problem many times before,
whether it's chickens and goats, FX across various different countries,
even dollars within the United States in the 1860s,
kind of the world cap banking era when different states could issue their own dollar bills.
We will solve it again. The tools that are here are the right tools to kind of solve into this
space. And it's going to take an army. it's going to take all of us to kind of focus
this world is already too big for one one team to kind of capitalize and dominate
so we're going to need to work together
100 100 uh maverick did you have your hand. Yeah, that was actually also me that talked about how most teams just like copy, paste, fork, like what Maker or Aave or Uniswap did.
Or even just every, like, look at all the Arbitrum and Optimism forks, right?
With nothing on them, mind you.
So, yeah, but when it comes to like the abstraction of gas fees, you can always build gas stations.
And then on the second, like we're basically someone pays them the asset that you're transacting and then it swaps it in the back end through a router into the native chain.
What we're doing for our RWA ecosystem on Maverick is everybody that goes and verifies the wallet because it's an open garden.
You have to do KYC and go through verification to buy and sell RWAs.
So what we do is everybody that actually goes and verifies their wallet,
we do an airdrop of Maverick tokens to them so that they don't have to effectively almost ever worry about gas fees.
And we're integrating with a third party for distribution of the RWAs.
And again, that ties in with an MPC wallet.
So the user logs in with the username and password,
and they just top up their wallet with USDT.
And for, I don't know, the first year or more,
don't, or maybe actually multiple years probably
with the airdrop, they won't ever
have to worry about gas fees.
It's just going to look like an application to them.
Gas fees are in the back end and eventually
we'll teach them about that so that's something interesting there's another way of doing that is
you know um have the foundations of l1s not be be so greedy and start building products
like start taking consumer um consumer experience into account most i don't think most teams do
or foundations uh totally agree there with you.
I mean, that's the number one reason why I got in as a UI UX designer,
bringing the skills to the crypto space,
changing the experience one project at a time.
But music to my ears, my friend.
That's it.
You think about it from a UI UX perspective, you get it, right?
But other people are just like, yeah, we need good UI UX. And that's as much as they think about a consumer experience. And consumer experience, which is more of like a product focus type of mentality, is quite different than just the UI UX of how does this look and feel in touch. It goes like a level beyond.
touch. It goes like a level beyond. And we, I don't think consumer experience is something
that almost anybody who's ever used a wallet or works at a crypto company has maybe even said out
loud. We need to push that narrative. Yes. Yes. I totally agree. But that's a different discussion
for a different time. So great, great, great topic. Maybe we might have to do that one in
the upcoming weeks, but we are definitely at the top of the hour.
I want to thank all of our panelists for joining us.
We appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us.
And thanks to all of you for joining as well.
We appreciate you guys. We couldn't do these spaces without your support.
If you haven't done so already, definitely give these guys a like and a follow.
They are definitely building some
pretty cool stuff and uh yeah make sure that you tune in every week at 10 a.m eastern standard
time on tuesday for the next episode of x talk and until then keep working to unite all of crypto
we'll talk to you guys later have a good one you I end it with a rap? Oh!
Forgot. If you want to rap real quick,
go for it, my friend. Let's go.
Hey, back out
with the race of no chain abstraction.
We out here. This is how we react
with the layer one. Getting on
my God turn. Got Joel leave. That's
okay. Be like Marvin and they'll be
rapping about RWAs. King Snoop's
coming down every week.
Got Sir Choice 2 with my homies in the room with the governor too.
What's up? It's 5 off.
We talk about the chain abstract.
This is how we do in the blockchain.
We gonna take away all the payments and the gas.
I'm out here making statements.
His name's Quay Boss.
You know me, my name is Dustin.
But you know I'm out here different on the lane.
Without doing a thing.
It might like cryptocurrencies on the blockchain.
Take it away.
We don't need to know what happens in the back.
That's okay.
We need to abstract everything, and that's okay.
This is called the blockchain for a reason.
We're pushing all ways.
We got decentralized on blockchain.
We like bridges, and that's okay.
We don't need them in the future.
That's okay. We don't need them in the future that's okay
we don't need them that's okay but you know what that's what we doing our thing we got layer one
talk about evms and non-evms with on consensus level messaging i'm out here making on the gains
but that's okay we stay in the lane to maintain with the turn on the governor marvin i mean what's
his name marvin with the network king snoot what's up but you got a dip to go into turn on the governor marvin i mean what's his name marvin with the network
king's new what's up but you gotta dip too going to another on the on the space we out here with
play boss talking about spitting on the blockchain all i want to do is buy some food without the
have to use my cryptocurrency be like dude do you take solana too no way i'm out here with my payments making all statements yo this is the thing layer one
with the chain abstraction on the way we're not doing our thing to stay in the lane to maintain
on the blockchain come through all the time it's layer one we out here quay boss and we gotta go
we out dude that was awesome that's a great way to end the show
thanks everybody have a great one
and give a shout out to boss
for that rockin'
rap appreciate it my friend
we'll catch you later Thank you.
Host
LayerOneX
from
Layer One X
