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The Real-World Network Effect: “Why dePIN Is the New Gold Rush”
Recorded: June 19, 2025 Duration: 1:05:51Space Recording
Short Summary
Jackal Labs is making waves in the blockchain space with its innovative decentralized storage solutions, officially launched in 2021. The project is strategically positioning itself in the market by focusing on cybersecurity and digital privacy, while also exploring partnerships and preparing for significant product launches aimed at businesses. As the demand for decentralized solutions grows, Jackal is set to capture a larger share of the market.
Full Transcription
Music Yo, Eli, good to see you.
Patrick, good to see you. Patrick, good to see you.
Let's see. I'm going to invite you to speak.
Chairman, we'll invite you to speak. Y'all circulate this again.
Look, I did the cardinal sin of Twitter spaces.
I was managing the fucking company account and went out of my personal one to go into the company one to try
and get it into this fucking space.
So y'all
flog me in the
comments, flog me digitally,
whatever the heck.
That was my bad, guys. So go ahead
and circulate it. If you circulate it around, we'll get everybody
here. Had about 25
signups, so we'll make sure
everyone's in for you.
Just tune in to Jackal.
Right on, right on.
Howard, thanks.
I was just screwing around with my mic.
Technical difficulties today, clearly for everyone.
Okay.
Yeah.
Glad I'm not alone.
Germ invited you up as well.
Let's see.
Going through and finding all of the groups of folks that were interested in circling it again.
All right. Sweet.
I got mine now.
You in?
Yeah.
Preach, preach. Germ did a great job by the way Douglas, getting everything set up
So shout out to Jerm
Oh, thank you
Let's see, I'm just getting to send out as well
Hey Let's see. Awesome. So, Patrick, when did you, when did Jackal start? Just to get a little bit of background.
Yeah, for sure. Jackal, well, before that, we were kind of working in digital forensics for
lawyers and we were trying to build some tools on polygon um but
we started jackal officially as a deep end infrastructure in 2021 um we built it in the
cosmos ecosystem we were there for the lunar collapse we were there for it's it's been a rough
road there's been never a dull moment let's just put it that way but we've been uh we've been
building for a long time now almost about four years awesome awesome and so it seems like you got to the cloud idea right and storage in general back
when it wasn't popular it's probably you guys file coin and maybe one or two other players uh
yeah that's off there you can say that right but But everyone kind of does something differently. Filecoin kind of sees it as like a marketplace for cheap cold storage, which is awesome in its own use case, right?
Our weave is kind of more focused on forever storage, like a digital archive. And that's cool, too. It's like upfront payments and it stores for at least 200 years. So no one's going to come back, check them on that.
and it stores for at least 200 years so no one's going to come back check them on that
and then for us we were kind of more focused on the cyber security and digital privacy posture and
using the things that we've gotten a little bit too used to self-custody ownership on-chain
permissions who owns what stuff of what time and using the benefits of blockchain technology in
that vertical because it's almost a miracle that blockchains can do what they do right now, where no blockchain worth its weight has been hacked at the protocol level.
That's not something that's true in cybersecurity anywhere.
It's really only something that exists in this little bubble that we're kind of used to.
There's been hacks, obviously, at the integration level, the JavaScript level.
That's kind of human error, though.
But we have this magic spreadsheet that's never wrong,
and we think that the best use for it is cybersecurity posture
and digital privacy stuff.
So we kind of built the protocol to serve a few use cases.
Number one, we wanted really fast storage,
and we wanted to actually have ownership and permissions and programmable privacy and encryption and all that stuff.
So we had to kind of build it as our own L1. And that's kind of what our vertical is.
We like exploring that design space of cybersecurity meets blockchain technology and people building other stuff on top of it right and you know one thing i was just say now that we um thanks for
the um also the intro as well josh so one thing is like i want to kind of circle back on the
privacy and the um the custodial aspect of it so as we all just saw in the news today that
you know there was a the biggest data breach in history just happened this morning i'm like fuck
i have to change off my password to my wife
and my grandma's calling me now but anyways we'll get to that later but she like one of the things
just like you know how like just like kind of the one like the forefront of where dpin can really
step up like you know for instance when the whole rpc node debate was happening like do we always
want to host our notes on aws we're essentialized
and they have to control where aws goes down half the chain can go down or a third of the chain can
go down well let's kind of i want to like you know also like learn more about jackal's like
potential solution to this which is about you know passwords and security it's like how can we
leverage deep in and it gets through your eyes of where we people we can own our own passwords where we don't have to worry about large data breaches as you know what happened today does
jack will have anything in um are are you guys like developing something to allow users to
kind of like own their own like passwords protection or yeah that's for manager maybe hell
yeah there's kind of two things we're talking about here, right?
So from the security perspective, there's the actual on-chain permissions.
And that's kind of the ledger, or in this case, for analogy, it's a bad database, but we'll call it a spreadsheet.
We have this magic spreadsheet that's never wrong of who owns what stuff.
In traditional world, there's essentially a centralized, there's a server that kind of manages permissions of who has access to what stuff. In traditional world, there's essentially a centralized, there's a server
that kind of manages permissions of who has access to what stuff. And if you're able to kind of get
around the perimeter defense, the firewall and the intrusion detection and blah, blah, blah, blah,
and you're able to bypass that, it's open season. But blockchains are kind of hard into the core,
right? So the cool thing when it comes to the password stuff, the way that we do it is your private keys are your password for our protocol. So there's no
usernames, there's no passwords, there's just public and private keys. And we think that
using the technology for who has what Bitcoin, who has what NFTs, but in this case, who has what
files and who has what data is equally as powerful. And we inherit the same security guarantees.
is equally as powerful and we inherit the same security guarantees.
On the D-Pin side of things, D-Pin's cool, right?
D-Pin's cool not specifically for, like, there's different features, right?
There's the decentralization and then there's the CapEx savings.
But the way that I look at D-Pin specifically is that you can attack markets
that you couldn't attack traditionally in
Web2, right? So if I wanted to go and I want to compete with Amazon, right? Or I want to go
compete with Google, I'd have to convince someone to give me billions and billions of dollars to
spin up the infrastructure to do so. The cool thing about Deepin is you could actually align
incentives where you can actually use unused capacity around the world or in HiveMapper's
use case, you can convince people to put cameras on cars or in Helium's use case, you can actually use unused capacity around the world or in HiveMapper's use case, you can convince people to put cameras on cars or in Helium's use case, you can convince people to use their Wi-Fi
and blast it out into their neighborhood. And for them to do it the other way, it would take
eons. You would need billions of dollars of commitment and you might be able to maybe compete.
Now with our token incentives and the way that we can borrow from the future to pay for the present to bootstrap the capital expenditure, the heavy infrastructure that you need to attack
that market, which is kind of like the moat in itself, that's kind of disappeared. Like Hive
Mapper is attacking Google Street View, where they pretty much have a monopoly on mapping data.
And it sucks because they have one car driving around all that good stuff um and then uh helium on the other hand they're kind of dealing with big telecom where they're
able to essentially bypass the need for all these towers and just go straight to market and
get coverage extremely fast to the point where actual telecom companies are offloading data on
their network our case a little bit different right um we're
kind of seeing like okay if we want to build this this network we'd have to build crazy amount of
data centers and it's really inefficient we kind of have to predict how much demand we'll have and
all that stuff yeah i mean you also hit on a couple good points as well which is distribution
of hardware because depending on what the D-PIN protocol
or project is building, it's like, all right,
how can we get, if it needs hardware,
how can we do hardware distribution,
which is why it's important to integrate D-PIN solutions
into different types of words.
It's your iPhone, Android, so on and so forth.
So with that being said, do you see, like,
what would you gauge as, like, your time horizon
of when
D-PIM could, I guess in a way, take, let's just say as a conservative number, 40% of
the market share of what we already have.
And that's including like, you know, storage, Wi-Fi, cellular networks, the whole shit bang.
Do you see that being like a one-year solution three-year solution
five-year solution because one thing i was just like researching earlier was now that we have ai
into the picture it actually you know people are kind of speculating that dpn might be coming
really soon without us even knowing you know because imagine like a solution where like you
know we all like some of us probably have iphones where i can just share again like my hotspot data i mean every time i'm in a different country i'm always asking
something hey even though this is not safe i just use your hotspot so i can download my e-sim
so like yeah i would like to get your thoughts on that to see like do you foresee depend being
able to take over or at least have a good chunk of the market share where people will start to
look at it within a reasonable amount of time?
Or would it take a little bit longer for that?
And also, do you think AI would help with that growth now that we're here?
So, Patrick, before we jump in there, I want to make sure we give some formal intros
and make sure everyone understands Zackal and gets to hear from you guys
and then understands Vested as well as we've gotten some people in and gotten the link situation
sorted. So let's start with a formal intro of Jackal and then I want to jump into Jerm's
questions, which were, one, when do we see Deepin going mainstream essentially? And then two,
how will AI affect sort of that
adoption? Let's start with the intro of Jackal so everyone knows. Yeah. So my name is Patrick.
I'm the co-founder of Jackal Labs and also the co-founder of the Jackal Protocol. I'm currently
CEO at Jackal Labs. So we've been building this in 2021. We've been focused on specifically data
privacy and cybersecurity solutions by using blockchains for that.
And at the base level, Jackal is just a decentralized storage layer where any developer on any blockchain that we support can pretty much access storage with a simple smart contract call,
which enables us to build web scale applications on blockchain rails, which is something that we previously weren't able to do because you can only put so much in the blocks.
So that's kind of my background. We've been building since 2021.
We're one of the oldest deep end projects probably out there.
And that's pretty much everything for me.
So if you're a developer looking for a lot of storage needs or you're looking to build cybersecurity or digital privacy products, we're definitely a place for you.
Love it. Love it. That's awesome to hear. Okay.
Quickly on Vested, guys. So one, my name is Joshua Howard, founder of Vested. Vested is a passion
project of mine with a great team. So two of the folks are on Germany, who is helping with pretty
much everything across the entire org, doing a fantastic job and led up this initiative for our first Twitter Spaces event, bringing on leaders within D-Pen, D-A-I, and D-Sci talking about the future of the industry.
So shout out to Germ there. He'll be leading up this conversation with discussion and questions.
with discussion and questions.
We also have Reese on the conversation.
He is Kiel right there.
Reese is doing an amazing job as an intern at Vested,
chatting about all, you know, connecting us with podcast hosts
and doing a lot of the back-end work that's really making Vested go.
So shout out to Reese as well.
Quickly on Vested. Vested is a group built for DAI, D-Pen and D-Sci founders, investors, researchers built for resources, and do business. So we have a few arms. One, have a media arm.
We're on two podcasts there. One focused on daily political, daily international and domestic
crypto policy news, and one on DeepinDAID side, which is our flagship one called Essential Context. I have a few episodes coming out this week or early next week.
I have three recorded, one with David from Morpheus,
a few others from some other leading Deepin protocols who I'll know,
like Diode, D-Sci, like Spine Down, a few others.
I have a research arm, and you'll be seeing some articles
and think pieces out shortly.
And finally, I have a research arm and you'll be seeing some articles and think pieces out shortly. And finally, I have a TG group started about two months ago and at about zero and has grown to over 200 people in the group, top builders, investors, et cetera, in the space that are within the group.
That's invite only. All of this is invite only. So I appreciate you all showing up today. And then third for us, we host global private dinner.
So I've had a chance to have conversations with the deep and deep side leaders on this stuff.
Full time, I work with Red Beard Ventures. So I'm an associate at Red Beard Ventures.
We invest in across the stack, have a syndicate fund and accelerator.
Accelerator is called Denari Labs.
That's our active vehicle now doing early stage investments. So really plugged in across the
stack. Like I said, this is a personal private project that I'm interested in doing it as a
labor of love and excited to be doing it with amazing people. So look, that's enough of intros.
I'm going to let you take back over. And Patrick, let's jump back into when do
you see Deepin going mainstream? Because that's super important. And then second, to Germany's
point, on AI's adoption. And I think an important kind of addition to that is where you're seeing
a protocol like Jackal being used across the AI stack, right? So whether it's
actual data storage and pre-training and post-training, are we seeing that yet from
Deepin stuff? We'd love your insights. Yeah, there's a few things, right? So when you talk
about market penetration, in my opinion, it kind of matters on what industry, because Deepin's so
broad, right? Deepin just assumes that you're using tokens
to incentivize the bootstrapping
of physical infrastructure.
So if it's something in the telecom space,
it looks like they're starting to get offloading
of bandwidth.
I think if we start to see more things
like what Santiago is doing with inversion capital
of purchasing actual telecom companies in lat m and then just arbitraging
it's kind of like a spinal transplant onto helium's rails for example that's pretty crazy
right so if we can see that arbitrage start to begin i think that the telecom side of things
that could get pretty deep penetration on the mapping if you're simply like collecting data
and selling that data,
I don't know much about that market.
So it's going to be kind of difficult,
but if you're able to provide the most real time,
highest refresh rate of mapping data,
I think that you arguably already have the best product
on the market.
So I could see them get pretty quick penetration.
Once it starts to get a little bit more heavy, right,
for the storage projects, for same thing with the AI guys that are just like looking for training data for example
I can see the training data guys get penetration pretty quickly on the infrastructure of like
storage or compute side of things it's a little bit more I want to say like the comparison is
kind of the comparison between a mobile app company or a social app company versus a biotech or a SpaceX.
There's a lot more moving parts.
And the amount of time it takes you to get to, I want to say, cloud parity, where it's a similar user experience to AWS, takes more time.
It's a similar user experience to AWS, takes more time.
So with that, it kind of just, you have to look at what are the unique value propositions of using a blockchain-based data storage layer, for example.
It kind of comes down to privacy and cybersecurity posture.
And once you build the infrastructure, now you have to start building apps to provide value to the market.
So we are building our own apps.
We have guys that are building mobile-type apps.
We have developers that are building mobile type apps. We have developers that are building streaming type products. We have guys over at base starting to do stuff as well. It kind of starts always with like NFTs and stuff like that, but it kind of builds into more data heavy applications. So it's kind of different depending on what market you want to look at.
depending on what market you want to look at.
For us, I think we're just around the corner
for us to actually deploy a cybersecurity product
for businesses.
We hoping to get that out towards the end of the month,
maybe early next month.
But one thing is to build the infrastructure.
The next thing is to actually build,
have the application layer,
which actually provides value to the end user.
Nice.
I actually want to know,
like probably closer to the end of the um just to look to know more
about the actual after you want to the security after you want to build for businesses but
so one thing that you kind of touched on was kind of a supply side like how would
our like now that we're starting to see you know every time there's a deep end product a famous
supply and demand two-sided marketplace what would would be the best initiative for D-PIM projects to either control the supply side or the demand side?
Is it better just to have the hardware first or just have the people...
Sorry, it's running outside.
If you hear that, is it better to have the...
Yeah, where they're like...
Sorry, hold on.
Give me one second to step inside before I get wet.
Sorry.
Cool.
Sorry about that.
Yeah.
So I would just like, again, like going back to the supply demand side, because we're starting to see, you know, just like, again, two side of marketplace where, you know, every time a deep end product, they need, like, demand or they need supply.
Like, how did you guys solve that problem with Jekyll, Patrick?
Yeah.
So our Vintage made a lot of mistakes early days on having too much supply.
And this is something that we've kind of noticed if you want to look at utilization rates of the protocols themselves.
want to look at utilization rates of the protocols themselves. You can kind of look at Filecoin's
early days, for example, where their market cap stayed the same, but the token price has decreased
a lot because they're incentivizing more infrastructure than is needed. This has kind
of been a thing where people have aggressively bootstrapped the supply side, but then realized
that there's no demand on the other side because the product isn't there, for example, right?
So we made this mistake as well when we first started we started with a helium
type as a hybrid between a bunch of things but helium was in uh was kind of our model for
bootstrapping the incentives uh to bootstrap the network and for us like it kind of depends on what
you're building right if you're building a telecom thing and you want to go to market globally or in
north america specifically you're gonna have um that's a lot of token what you're building, right? If you're building a telecom thing and you want to go to market globally or in North America specifically, you're going to have, that's a lot of token incentives.
You're essentially borrowing from the future to pay for the present, right?
And then the thing is that like that, you have to refill that demand.
So that has to be actual sales and actual revenue.
Um, on the other side to actually put buy pressure on the token, whether that's.
A deep in mullet style like helium or like us, where we're bringing clients on and then we're buying back the token ourselves
or whatever it kind of might might be in our perspective we move from purely an inflation
based bootstrapping to more of a real yield model which kind of tightens the spread a lot between supply and demand.
And we made that change, I want to say a year or two ago. The reason being is that you can build
out the infrastructure, but if you don't have like the product that's there and we've built a few
products, we think that this next product is going to do really, really well, specifically on disaster
recovery for businesses. But if you don't close that spread,
you kind of get into this really spooky zone
where you have way too much infrastructure
relative to the demand or relative to the value
you provide for the marketplace at that time.
So how we solved it, we had to go real yield
and tighten the spread between supply and demand.
That's essentially kind of the big killer of Deepin Networks
is you can bootstrap all the supply in the world. But the thing is that if there's
no demand on the other side of it, you're in trouble.
Oh, sorry. Got something to say, Josh?
Oh, no, no. Just checking in.
Yeah. So one thing that's interesting,
because there's been like some vcs like
i've been like i'm chatting with who's in the deep end there you know again like this whole
conversation comes up again which is like as you're trying to figure out the supply and demand side
and you're trying to get like also like investing as well is there like a moment in which that like
some deep end projects are almost like better off not taking VC money or launching a token because it can actually harm the long-term sustainability of the project
or these are the opposite. I think it kind of depends on what you're building right it's not
really a one-size-fits-all so it's a double-edged sword in the sense that if you launch a token, you're not going to get VC capital anymore because now you can really only target liquid funds.
This is a thing where, for example, for us, we raised a small round and we went to market
because we wanted to get it out there and get testing and getting it in people's hands
as quickly as possible.
But there's the flip side of the equation, depending on what you're building, you might
need a lot more capital than we do to get your thing to market.
So you kind of have to make a cost benefit analysis there of is it worth it for us to
stay on testnet for longer or even start to try to sell on testnet, even though it doesn't
have the same security guarantees maybe and raise a few rounds? Or is it better for you to stay nimble, stay hungry,
and raise a small round, go to market,
and just continue to iterate and make the product better?
It's kind of hard.
I don't think there's really a one-size-fits-all.
Yeah, Patrick, I wanted to follow up on that.
I want to engage in a macro question, right?
And Jerm, let me know how we're doing on time,
because if Patrick is your game, we might have a few Q&A in here,
because I know there's some smart folks.
It's the end of the day for me here.
Okay.
There's some smart folks in the audience.
But quickly, Patrick, on some macro stuff,
at a hot level, what are some things within D-Pen? You could expand it to DAI, D-Ca. Honestly, they're out of crypto if you want. key inflection points that they'll face in their company journey or the key challenges they'll have
in the early days, ETC. But what are some key things you think founders miss? What are some
key things you think investors miss about how to underwrite a good deep-end company?
Yeah, kind of two things, right? So the thing that I think that founders miss, and this is on our
mistakes that we've made, right? We've been here for a while.
We survived a bear market.
There's been rough days, right?
But from our perspective, our biggest mistakes was bootstrapping too much supply.
I think that you kind of get addicted to the node sales.
That's not something that we did, but some people do these node sales.
Or you get addicted to just having so much raw capacity.
You're like, oh, we have like gigabytes of data storage.
And when you look at what is the utilization rate, it's less than 2%. So you're paying for that infrastructure, but it's not being used.
I think that that's a big issue.
I also think that you can get stuck
in the decentralization side of things.
Not saying that decentralization is bad.
It would be like decentralization,
our protocol is decentralized.
But decentralizing the sales process
where the only way to buy it is to purchase USDC
on Coinbase and then bridge it and then bridge it
and then bridge it and then swap and then buy.
It's really difficult to make that sale.
So I think that if you're going to go to market, number one, take the biggest value proposition of the infrastructure that you have.
In our case, it's the security side and it's the speed that we can provide by kind of streaming data from multiple nodes at once to saturate the wire.
I think that that's a big thing.
So just kind of taking what is the killer value proposition and actually building a product for that and running kind of what we call the deep end mullet, where it's business to the front and blockchains in the back, basically.
and just actually getting the supply side.
Yeah.
And just actually getting the supply side.
Supply side is really, really important
because when you issue tokens to bootstrap the demand side,
if you're issuing tokens to bootstrap the supply side,
you're borrowing from the future.
And you have to refill that demand.
That's a loan.
That's not a magic internet forever money. There are some more
businesses. I was hoping that it would be. Yeah, I know. Aren't we all right? I thought we were
just printing dog. Just kidding. Literally. But VCs underwriting. I've worked a bunch of VCs
send deals my way and we get to look at a lot of stuff and we get to kind of vet the technical aspects.
They like to send that to us.
We take a look at a lot of GitHub every now and then.
But from the underwriting side, if I was a VC, I would be looking at does this actually solve a problem better than the current incumbents?
And in Deepin, you're not really competing with other
crypto projects you're actually competing against web2 um so from that which kind of goes
oh sorry what you about to say uh but say like that kind of comes down to like the main part
like where some of these like decentralized like you know cloud providers that are trying to come
up whether they have you know encrypted social introduced environments like built-in or whatever the case
may be to me the biggest question is always all right if you're trying to go to enterprise or
even like a really like medium-sized business like how are you going to convince them to migrate
over from something that's tried and true like how much longer would it have to take for
approximately like hey like if you're using s3 buckets why not it's new over here where it's like cheaper yeah like that's like one of the
main like hiccups that you know once that is solved and like other um not just like you know
even crypto vcs traditional vcs will see that well now you're going to be they want you to be a part
of the stack so if i'm you know v VC hat coming on like, all right, cool.
Like, what are you going to use the money for?
Oh, you're going to use AWS.
Well, why are you using AWS versus this?
Yeah.
And really start to integrate and streamline like, yeah.
But there's also a question to be raised around
if the AWS costs are actually the, the problem.
Do you actually have a viable business? So if you need to cut costs
that aggressively, and I'm not saying that cutting costs is particularly a bad thing, but
does that actually solve a top three problem for that business? Because migrating is not easy.
Amen to that. It's a big pitch. So from our perspective, it's just like, okay, what superpowers
do we have? Right? Like price could be one of them, right? Because we can bootstrap stuff pretty
easily. And we're using unused capacity. Or people that aren't doing this as a full time job. That's
not really our case, but it is the case. But the second question is, what are the superpowers do
we have? Right? You have price could be one of them. From our perspective, we see the verifiability is a big one.
So what's like, it's kind of AI adjacent, but the product that we're building right now,
you look at the ability to deploy a cyber attack just became 100 times cheaper,
whether it's network scanning or phishing attacks or whatever it might be.
And what is the last line of defense?
It's the backups, right?
It's the disaster recovery infrastructure of a business.
From their perspective, and we've had hundreds of these conversations,
50% of the backups fail over the wire,
and then 60% of the actual backups in this recovery plan are incomplete.
You don't actually know if the backups are
there unless you actually try to restore them and restoring them can be prohibitively expensive.
So could we use on-chain proofs to actually have validity of the data and bring that to
market and have a 10x better product for those people and make sure that we have like the
increase of emergency break glass product for these businesses. That's a problem, right?
And that's a pain point for a lot of these guys and it's a lifeline for their business.
So I kind of like focusing on things like price obviously is like a huge, huge, huge
kind of superpower that we have where we have extreme pricing power because of the like
the CapEx savings because of the OpEx savings.
But also competing on price is just one piece. You can kind of pull like who are like the discount
kind of retailers of different things in the public markets and you can pull their
like their quarterly reports and you can actually read how they're doing. If you look in data storage adjacent things in our use case,
we pulled back blaze, which is like super cheap storage.
And that's what they do.
They're not doing too hot.
But if you look at a rubric or cohesive,
either growing 40% error year over year and they're a multi-billion dollar
company. And what do they do?
Well, they make sure that businesses are protected.
So I think there's more,
you have to kind of have a value proposition that's just not cost. I don't
think it's enough in this day and age.
Yeah, you're 1000% right. It's like, yeah, it's not always about cost. And one thing
that I've learned through like talking with other founders too, is sometimes it's not
even about security. You know, I know this one project where they have, they've created their own like,
um, container where they have their own like trusted execution environment kind of
built in on like different, like, not on SDX, but different, um, um, different
chips and coming to find out like most businesses are like, especially like when
it comes down to enterprise, like everyone really care about that.
And again, it all comes back down to what you just said, like, uptime, as well as, you know,
how can I make sure that it's safe?
And you just need to somehow just stay alive
or stay afloat until.
Because, yeah, I mean, you got founders always say,
like, yeah, but ADS, just give us credit.
And then it kind of goes down to the,
all right, well, how can you migrate it?
Which is, I'm surprised.
I mean, you might know this on, Pat,
but are there any tools that helps, like,
that can help, like, projects and founders
or even developers just, like, migrate one instance to another?
Because I know, like, transferring from, like, you know,
one Linux environment to another is, like, a bitch and a half.
But if that can be, like, soft, I mean, that can be,
I think that should be a part of everyone's go-to stack.
And that could be an additional value that DeepinPen can do, where it's like,
hey, it doesn't matter where you're at,
just use our platform to just save your current
state or your environment. And then whenever
you want to migrate from AWS to DigitalOcean
or Big Tim server farm in
Ohio, you can do exactly
that and go from there.
Yeah, we have an S3-compatible API
right now. So
essentially, all you have to do is change your credentials
and then it actually starts shooting it over to Jocko.
The downside is that for you to kind of maintain
like the security or privacy kind of stuff
because if you, now we have two,
we have S3 and then there's Jocko S3, right?
And they're both the same standard.
It's open source, it's wonderful.
You can switch between the two,
but the other thing is that we've noticed
for the guys that are looking to migrate
from AWS onto Jackal,
their big focus is actually
they want the security, privacy, and self-custody
and the self-hosting.
And for us to provide that,
they actually have to self-host
their own kind of gateway.
The data stored on Jackal,
you don't have ingress and egress fees,
but you do have to host that gateway
for you to maintain self-custody
and all that good stuff.
But yeah, we got it.
It's in the GitHub.
We have some people trying streaming
and some other stuff,
and we use it for some of our products
that we're building internally as well.
Love it. Love it.
Jerem, how are we doing on time?
We're doing good. We actually just talked the q a actually so anyone have any questions just like give a little raise or raise your hand
yeah we'll start that process patrick this has been fascinating i hope we get some
some spicy questions um because you guys are doing some cutting edge stuff so
uh let's see have have
two requests here jude i'm gonna go and let you in
yo yo what up to you
hey seeing can you hear us, Jude?
Are you there?
Yeah, Josh, I'm here, man.
Good to be here, guys.
This is Jude.
Yeah, I'm good.
This is Jude, connector from Africa.
Josh, great work you're doing on deep in and decentralized AI.
Yeah.
And the science.
Yeah.
I think, yeah, there are some incredible use cases for this product in Africa.
Right.
I drop you a DM.
Right.
Don't really have much question.
I've enjoyed the space so far.
Right.
I sent you some message to say we can, you know, how we can collaborate and work together.
Right.
So thank you so much. I'm hanging around. i'm enjoying the entire conversation yeah awesome let me ask you this any questions for patrick around use cases in emerging markets or seems like there
may be a fit there curious do you have anything about about uh jackal martin he said you have
down there in africa too it'd be interesting yeah I mean that is interesting question right so what are the use cases for um jackal for
for the emerging market like African continent right yeah so in emerging markets and uh it's
kind of counterintuitive because I I spent some time talking about how the actual use of crypto in payments was difficult for
people on board.
But on the flip side, when you're looking at places that aren't in North America or
it's hard to get access to specific financial products, possibly, right?
Paying with crypto is actually really great. We have huge, like Latin America, Portugal, down in kind of Colombia, those places.
We have a ton of people that are using the protocol as like a Dropbox type product and they can pay for it.
They don't need a credit card. They're just on board.
And they're pretty used to using crypto because they kind of sidestepped the financial system.
sidestepped the financial system, they went straight to stablecoins, right?
They went straight to stable coins, right?
So for that use case, that's probably one of the access to the protocol.
Anyone with a cell phone anywhere in the world can get access.
You don't need the banking infrastructure to get dollars into our bank account
all the way over here in Canada.
So that's kind of one of the major ones.
For people that are kind of in places where censorship is an issue
or access is a really big issue.
If you can VPN in or get access to the Jocker protocol
and pay in tokens, you have the highest digital privacy
and cybersecurity posture possible mathematically.
It's just public and private key cryptography
and it's completely permissionless.
So for use cases like that,
most of the uses that we're seeing is kind of like a Dropbox.
But if you're looking for something more enterprise, you can self-host a gateway and you can just start using it like S3 and go to town.
Jude, love it great question appreciate that
Reese I know you had a question down in the comments seeing some stuff
in the comments below curious if you wanted to go and ask something
yeah yeah hello to everybody my name is Reese current research intern at best adventures
had a quick question for uh patrick uh any collaborations integrations
partnerships uh anything along along those lines with jackal uh in the past maybe in the future
something you're working on behind the scenes maybe you want to drop a little alpha in the uh
in the the vested space yeah like we've always been talking with a lot of guys that are building
data heavy applications um so like morpheus, for example, they're building AI stuff.
Our cache guys, we're looking to kind of have memory for compute.
So if you want to swap leases, you don't have to nuke your entire memory.
So that's another use case that we're seeing a lot.
For kind of us on the macro side of things, we want every developer on any blockchain to pretty
much have access to scalable data storage that they can automate on chain with a smart
contract call.
So if that's the case, we've kind of been hunting the ecosystems with the most developers.
So we've deployed in Cosmos on a few chains.
We're deploying an outpost on a base which we've done quite recently so
people on base if you're building anything data heavy that you can't fit the data
into the blocks if the data is a little bit more than 100 kilobytes then jackal's the product for
you love it quickly um what are our subnets using morpheus or what's the or excuse me
subnets using jackal and morpheus or what's the connection there like tau subnets using Morpheus or what's the, or excuse me, subnets using Jackal and Morpheus or what's the connection there?
Like Tau subnets?
No, in Morpheus.
Are subnets there using Jackal or, you know?
They were kind of looking,
they had kind of more of a persistent memory issue.
So, okay.
How do I put it this way?
A lot of the decentralized AI products,
if you refresh the page,
if they're kind of privacy focused or they want persistent memory
where you kind of had checkpoints and that kind of stuff,
or if you're looking at retrieval augmented generation
or just larger context windows or just memory in general for the chat,
that is something that we've kind of been working on
providing to the
decentralized AI guys. Outside of that, also just kind of storage for model weights, storage for
just foundation models, all kind of stuff like that, where you need a lot of data to be stored.
I've also seen things where people are working on data DAOs, where you want to curate high value
data sets, but you also want to kind of govern
access to said data set. So the programmable privacy, where if I want to share data with
another party, I can do it peer-to-peer without middlemen. So that's another kind of cool use
case that people are using the protocol for. Love that. Love that. I see Eli, I'll bring you up next.
Lonnie, I see you as well. Wanted to ask you, Patrick, quick. So are projects like Venice, et cetera, able to use Jackal today?
Is that happening?
I'm curious.
Yeah.
Venice, no.
We've been speaking back and forth a little bit with Eric about that.
I really would like them to adopt Jackal for obvious reasons.
for obvious reasons.
They have a pretty great user base, all that good stuff.
all that good stuff.
Right now, the kind of the way they set it up
is they kind of maintain privacy by encryption.
And I think that adding decentralized storage
to that stack is pretty powerful stuff,
in my opinion,
while still maintaining the same speed.
So I'd like that to kind of move forward as well.
Love it.
Look, I see a few friends in the audience, a few contributors to Jack as well.
So look, may put some of y'all on the spot.
Look, a requirement of being a friend of Josh, a friend of Vested,
is you will get put on the spot in Twitter spaces.
So be ready, be free.
No, I'm kidding.
But a few of you guys like Cryptorium, Tyler, see you guys.
I think y'all that's many
stuff to say eli i want to bring you on i know you're gonna have a banger uh let's get you
good to hear from you my man
yes yep yeah thanks so much for setting this up yeah My name is Eli. I'm actually interning as well for Redbeard Venture this summer. This is super cool. I'm actually a Web 2 and more recently Web 3 dev. So I have a lot of experience working with like AWS, GCP, even building on like cloud services or decentralized cloud services like Filecoin, BitTensor, Noose research.
So I'd love to kind of know from a developer perspective, from a Web2 developer perspective,
what efforts Jackal's kind of making to onboard users in a kind of easy environment where they
don't have to necessarily switch their whole tech stack or something like that.
Yeah, our first major step in that front was kind of focused on S3 specifically,
because like a lot of things run on the S3 standard,
and there's a lot of libraries that people can use on the S3 standard.
So we wanted to kind of focus on that so that you can kind of hot swap your credentials into Jackal
and then just start streaming data our way instead of an AWS or
Wasabi or a Backblaze that kind of all run on the S3 standard. The other thing is for you to kind
of get all the superpowers of Jackal, whether it's like the peer-to-peer transfer of data,
we have a ton of stuff going on where you want to send data between two parties without middlemen.
That's something that is by using on-chain permission.
So I take my private key, your public key, get a new key, and now the other user now
has access to that data and I can still revoke it with my private key.
The on-chain permission side of thing, all that good stuff.
That is just a lot of work on JavaScript libraries.
So if you want to, it depends on what value proposition you want.
If you want like kind of cheap,
close to feature parity is a little bit slower than an AWS or a Google cloud
will always be because of the encryption bloats the files. But for those guys,
they kind of want cheap storage. Right. But if you want to do the privacy stuff, if you want to do the cybersecurity stuff,
if you want to build a kind of root folder that is a kind of secure backup for a company
where you have a multi-signature wall to round a board of directors, stuff like that,
you kind of need to use Jackal.js.
And we've been working on that library.
It's been gone through crazy iterations.
We've rebuilt it from the ground up like four or five times. But it's just all integration work and just making
sure the developer experience is good. We have a long way to go, obviously. Every single project
has a long way to go with our developer libraries and having good documentation, all that good stuff.
Love that. Look, Eli, did you have a follow-up question?
I know you probably did.
Yeah.
So there's definitely a trade-off between, like, I guess, privacy and, like, efficiency in terms of throughput or just how much you can actually store and how, like, easily accessible it is.
easily accessible it is? Yes and no, right? It's kind of a double-edged sword where the privacy
Yes and no, right?
stuff on our end, if I want to move a file, I'm actually not moving the file. I'm just changing
the permissions on the protocol and it's end-to-end encrypted with your private keys in the first
place. So the storage providers, and we have three times redundancy, so you're going to get data streamed to you as quickly as possible.
The biggest thing is like on the privacy side of things, it's really just the encryption bloats the files.
And since everything is always encrypted on the Jackal protocol and it's all done locally on the end user's device, that is what kind of increases the slowness.
that is what kind of increases the slowness.
But if you use Jackal, you try it out.
The upload process takes a little bit
because it takes like six seconds for you to do the transaction.
If you're uploading it from base, it'll take double that
because there needs to be a transaction on base
and transaction on Jackal.
But on the download side of things,
it's pretty close to cloud parity on that front.
A little bit slower, but that's just because of encryption and physics.
Love that. That was fantastic. Alani, going to bring you up real quick. Then, look, Patrick,
we'll take one or two more questions after that. Appreciate your willingness to contribute to
everyone in the community today. After this, I want to bring up a few Jocko contributors.
And like I said, Tyler, for example, I know you've
invested in some AI projects as well, some folks like that. So be ready. Look, you're going to be
brought on whether you like it or not. No. But I want to hear from one or two of you guys, and then
we'll end after that. Alani, what's up? Hi. Can you hear me yes oh yeah so yeah thanks for the um for the very informative session i've
been following jackal for a while um for those of me some maybe one or two people might know me
for those who don't i was actually the former head of ecosystem um and accelerator other gosh
um i did the same at stellar
So this has been very heartwarming.
My question is more on the business side, because that says, I mean, those who know me know I'm the guy who comes and scales everything.
So the constraints for enterprise and retail are different.
So in the enterprise space, their constraints are regulatory and reputation.
Cost comes downstream.
On the retail side, their constraints are costs, obviously, and a low cognitive load,
because we all know very well that you can't scale what you can't simplify
so the competition there especially when we have a tokenized project is
on the retail side you're going to have value extraction you know those who are coming for
just what they can extract out of the token relative to what they can actually versus what
they can contribute versus enterprise where cost comes
secondary as long as we have slas slos you know data is secure repetition is protected brand
association is good we check all the boxes and then we can go to market and that often takes
time because it's a longer sales cycle so my question then here is you know what can we anticipate in terms of balancing those two?
Yeah, for sure.
So it kind of comes down to our unit economics, right?
And I'm sure you're kind of familiar with Akash.
We kind of all started more in the consumer space.
And we kind of have to, right?
We just built an infrastructure from the ground up.
We got a blockchain.
We have the overhead of the validators, all of this crazy stuff. But for us to kind of test it, we have to
have kind of play in the consumer space. So we went to market and we said, okay, we're just going
to do Jackal blockchain plus front end. That's the file explorer. And we got Dropbox. There we go
with Jackal vault. We got about a thousand users that use Jackal vault. Pretty cool. Awesome.
We got about a thousand users that use DracoVault.
Pretty cool.
Awesome.
But the thing is that consumers for our unit economics, consumers actually don't store
that much data.
They don't have that much data to store.
And that's kind of a fundamental issue for us to kind of stay playing in that space.
Probably similar for Akash and the guys over there as you're familiar with um not like the people that are
driving the demand for the compute is probably going to be the startups right now that are
um kind of cost constrained and they want to use the cache for that reason
so we kind of have to get to a b2b market because people only have so many memes to store right or
else we kind of run out of data to put onto the network that way. So we've kind
of been focused on actually cyber recovery side of things. I can kind of go to my profile and I can
see if I can pin something here in the nest. So we've kind of been focused more on our superpower
is the security of the data. Our superpower is the ability for us to have tamper-proof logs, verification of the data
is there.
Another superpower of us is we just pretty much have a crazy high security posture with
multi-sig wallets, whether we manage it on behalf of the clients or the clients manage
it themselves.
So everything's kind of led to this moment for us, where for us to move data in size
onto the protocol, we have to solve a problem for businesses, and that is verifiability of recovery and
their entire disaster recovery plan. With that, as you said, kind of the SLA side of things,
the compliance side of things, lucky for us, so we don't really run a marketplace model.
The blockchain just kind of inherits SLAs at the core. So the blockchain can
always guarantee that within a six-hour period, there'll always be three copies of that data
that's stored, and it's going to be verified every six hours through the chain, and we can
post those proofs. The other thing that you said is kind of the compliance side of the thing,
and this is the other stuff that we had to go through. We're trying to get SOC2 compliant for
this respawn product. Luckily for us, there's no rules in SOC 2 about the
decentralization aspect of the data as long as it's in tier 3 data centers. So we have to kind
of whitelist certain providers. But we can kind of get to market with a fully compliant SLA guaranteed
on chain, whether it's signed via contract or whether it's actually enforced at the chain level.
We're happy to sign that contract because we know it's going to be there. So those are kind of, that's what our focus is right now, is going to market,
providing value to businesses specifically. And that's kind of where our heads are.
Nice. You know, actually, I only brought up one interesting thing, which kind of ties
in with the overarching narrative for like D-PIN,
DAI, and even like D-Sci as well, which is how much like, so really all it comes down to regulation,
right? Like it'd be great the day that, you know, people can get paid for holding medical records
in a way like on a decentralized environment. How much of a weight do you think that will have down
the stream like do you think regulations could open up for d5 projects to temper into more i guess
i i wouldn't say high risk but um for i guess like high stakes uh business like whether it's like
enterprise military health because i think that would be like the real signal is all right you can start storing
your own you know again like um like medical records or all right pwc europe or whatever the
case may be or just pwc or deloitte wants to start using bpen projects and start storing their data
on their um on like different like dpen um or like storage devices or deep end infrastructure in general
yeah it's kind of a two-sided question right it's step one for like the deep end guys are
coming out of the gates right now I would say that step one is getting the thing to work
I don't know how to put it any other way.
It took Helium years.
It took Filecoin still struggling with product market fit.
Akash got product market fit very recently where they're starting to get like $2 million in revenue
where it takes a very long time.
Akash started, what, 2018, 2017.
And then they were able to finally really start to hit their exponential growth
recently. Right? So step one is getting the thing to work. Step two is the compliance side of
things, right? So if we want to get HEPA compliant, for example, we can get HEPA compliant.
The question is, is that, or do we have a product that hospitals are willing to pay for at this
given moment? That is the big thing, right?
I mean, anything that will lower my medical bill, yes.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Like medical records is a huge thing, and we'd love to work in that space.
The thing is that you kind of have to know your customer at the same time, though.
These guys trying to get hospitals to pay for shit,
and we're in Canada where we have a public
health system. In the States, it might be a different story. But when you're looking
at trying to sell into the public sector, it's very, very difficult. For us, the way
we want to go to market with this is we want to focus on managed service providers specifically
that manage 2,500 mailboxes on behalf of other companies. So I'm a lawyer, I'm a construction company,
I'm an oil and gas company,
I'm gonna outsource my IT to this company.
And getting those guys is the sale that we want.
We also kinda wanna target people
that are starting to get SOC2 compliant
and they have to have a disaster recovery plan
and they have to have disaster recovery products
to get that compliance.
So that's kinda where we're focused on is can we solve for a specific need?
When it talks about the compliance side of things like with health care or with military or government, there's rules, right?
So, for example, one that we struggled with when we were trying to sell into airports for their camera footage, was the data had to stay within the borders of Canada.
It's hard for us to guarantee that because the protocol is going to put the data
where it's the most safe.
But just because it's mathematically the most safe
doesn't mean it specifically follows their policies.
So to solve those problems, you have to start making subnets
or whitelist programs or Jackal Plus programs, for example,
where we have certain providers that kind of create
a subnet of storage providers that are compliant.
They're running into your OneData centers.
They have locks on the doors
and there's all that good stuff to be compliant.
So you kind of have to kind of morph the protocol
to serve multiple different needs. And that is the biggest difficulty when you're this level of the stack
um a lot of people use storage for a lot of different things
and then it kind of goes from like now being permissionless to permission when it gets down
to that so it's like all right are we really decentralized granted that's like a very like
you know used term which is yeah, you can still be
that, but you still have to have the proper permission to make sure that no one gets, you know,
sued. It's a big question about that, right? But my goal, like when you build something,
all like the thing that you care about more than anything is you want people to use it,
right? You just want it to be used. And the customer in the market is going to tell you what features and what benefits of the blockchain technology they want in the product.
For example, for this Respawn product that I put in the nest, that product, for example, it's going to have a gateway in between there's going to be middleware there and that middleware is going to be able for us to add more value if you want to scan data going in if you want to do virus total type stuff
where we can make sure that hey you guys have ransomware right now we should probably reload
from a previous snapshot stuff like that and that's value adds that they might want if you're
ads that they might want.
If you're someone that is living in a place
that it might not be safe to have specific things
in your cloud environment,
but you can't really keep it on your phone either,
they're gonna want it for the decentralization
and the permissionlessness and the sovereignty
and censorship resistance.
So the big trick is trying to figure out designs and architectures that can serve the needs of each individual client.
Where some want to, I want these superpowers, I don't want these superpowers, they don't mean anything to me.
And I might have to trade some superpowers for more value to the end user.
some superpowers for more value to the end user.
So you kind of have to pick and choose
and you have to be malleable enough
that you can maintain those very specific principles
that we have as a company
and start to build things on the outskirts
that are either subnets of the vertical
or we have some subsection of providers
that are white listed for a specific niche
or we might have to make a subnet where
that kind of posts proofs in the main chain where all of the validators and the source providers
are specific geographic region the market's going to tell us what we need to do but as long as we
maintain those strong principles for the base layer that we want sovereignty we want privacy we want
self-custody and encryption we want to make sure that everyone's safe using the protocol and we can guarantee those protocol level SLA's for everyone.
I think that's what's important.
Love it. Love it. So let's get one more from the audience and then let's wrap up here. would love to end either we have a brave soldier volunteer or uh would love to hear from a jackal
contributor i'd love to hear a testimony or something from uh actually using or interacting
with the protocol uh what are some things that have made you excited on your journey of learning
about uh jackal so comptorium and i've seen i think think it's Joseph as well is in here. If either one of you guys want to jump up, go ahead and volunteer. Let me know.
sure if you're by your phones. If they don't respond here in a second, Patrick will have
you interact and maybe speak from some of the stuff that you've heard from contributors
and maybe explain the role of contributors and why people are excited about the ecosystem.
Yeah, Jackal's fun. It's kind of like a choose your own adventure story, right? There's certain
guys that are really heavy into the privacy side of things.
So we have Scott's a big member of our community.
And I know some people have downloaded his application onto people's phones,
where it's a mobile app for storage.
It's like Dropbox on the phone, but it's completely self-custodial and private.
And that's awesome.
There's guys that are kind of trying to use it for streaming services.
There are developers.
There are developers in different ecosystems that are trying to use it for different stuff. That's what excites
me is that people are building data-heavy web-scale applications on blockchain rails,
which is something that we couldn't have done before. It wasn't fast enough. It was
too expensive to actually fit all the data in the blocks themselves. So you need scalable
storage with a simple smart contract call and we were able to deliver
that and outside of that we've been building for a really long time.
We've been here for four years, we're going to be here for a lot more years.
But another thing for me, what I'm excited about is cybersecurity superpowers that blockchains
have.
It's not perimeter defense, it's hardened to the core.
Any blockchain with its way has never been actually hacked. And using those guarantees that we've gotten extremely used to in crypto land and applying that to actually solve problems for
organizations outside of crypto, make the user experience smooth, make sure that we can hit
those SLAs, make sure we can take payment on their behalf and buy back tokens on the back end and pay the protocol.
I'm excited about delivering those value propositions to the market.
I think that the cybersecurity meets blockchain space is severely underexplored and I think
it's disrespectful to the technology.
But that's kind of where we are.
Tell them, Pat. Tell them. No. disrespectful to the technology but uh that's kind of where we are tell them pat tell them so uh and quickly how many contributors are are in jackal and how many projects and protocols
are building on jackal to date yeah so right now as contributors of people full-time on stuff
uh i think we're about 12 we go up up to 18 with contractors sometimes if we need designers or stuff like that.
So we've kind of had, we've maintained our headcount through the bear market.
We've been here for a while.
People building on Jackal.
I can, pretty much every NFT project in Cosmos is storing their NFTs on Jackal, whether that's
the bad kids or the sloths or the uh and scientists
and those guys um so that's cool um so that's kind of like one really awesome thing to kind of
be a part of that community so we have a ton of nft builders nft marketplaces that are integrated
with jackal through our jackal print product um on the flip side we got uh people that are building
other things so we have someone that's building a streaming application we got people that are building other things. So we have someone that's building a streaming application.
We have people that are building alternative front ends for Jackal.
That is a little bit different, kind of Dropbox type front ends that are a little bit better
than Vault possibly for their use cases.
We have people that are building mobile apps.
We have people that are starting to toy around with using a cache in Jackal as a
back end for AI applications. We've been talking with decentralized science guys for genomes for
a long time. We have all kinds of builders building all kinds of crazy stuff. It's probably
the best way to put it. And for us, we're building our own applications as well that we think that
would bring Jackal to provide the most
value to the world with our limited time on this one.
And if you can make time machine backups available on Jackal, I would be so happy to start doing
remote backups.
Yeah, well, we have S3 compatibility, so we're looking to get into some open source backup products like Duplicati and those things as well.
And just be an offering there.
So there's some backup tools that we can piggyback off of and integrate with Jackal through S3.
We could maybe run like a hosted Jackal Labs gateway for it, kind of like an RPC node if you think about it that way.
Love it. Love it. Well, Patrick, appreciate you coming on today and sharing your wisdom about
building Jackal and also just being a top tier Deepin founder. So really appreciate you today.
How can folks follow and keep in touch? How can people learn about contributing or just keep up
with Jackal in general? Yeah, no, we're super responsive. So Telegram, Discord, DM me directly.
I'm willing to help any way that I can, whether you're a builder or whether you're just someone.
Damn, we got a founder in the trenches.
I love it.
Yeah, I know.
We try to be as responsive as we.
If you're interested in decentralized data storage and you're that big of a nerd like us, then we have time for you.
We have time for you always.
Yeah, I'll tell you what.
Vested is a community for nerds.
Yeah.
I'll raise my hand as a nerd.
So if you ever want to nerd out,
my DMs are open.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Well, appreciate you guys.
Appreciate everyone here today.
This was great, Patrick.
Appreciate it, fellas. Thanks for having me.
Okay.
Thank you, everyone.
Cheers. Thank you.
