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The Role of AI in Blockchain
Recorded: Nov. 13, 2024 Duration: 0:39:39Space Recording
Full Transcription
What's the call when the music changes the world?
I call it Magic City, welcome to Magic City, everybody leaves with a smile on their face, the wizards collide, things get monumental, things get legendary, some things may never be said, teach what y'all was waiting for, now watch the competition disappear, poof, poof, innocent, go.
I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City, I call it Magic City.
them ho niggas
Biscuit off me
Biscuit off, pick up
If this is okay, this is golf, okay.
Top is golf, okay.
Now, I get off, okay.
Not talking top when I say I hit, it's golf, okay.
Rain like mall, drama, hit like mall, it's okay.
She know how to lay her land, she know how to kick.
She know how I'm getting my beat.
She still don't know about the treats.
I keep it, I keep it, find it like I didn't do.
She got it from the feet like that she found the feet.
I keep it right out of the streets.
Right out of the trees.
Yeah.
The drop.
Cruise in the drop.
It's me.
Rolling rock.
Too much faster than y'all.
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We all over.
See your friends with Margarina.
He's damnin' shit so easy.
Y'all don't walk through Manga.
We know stupid Marina.
Do my bad job.
Do the ball walk like Duma.
Get out like a Duma.
Baby, shakin' out at you.
Hey, everyone.
Welcome back to the stage.
Oh, so annoying.
But you know what?
Twitter can be so shit sometimes that our friends over at ex-cohost actually have a button on
their website that says Rugged because getting rugged on Twitter is such a common occurrence
that they've built a functionality that notifies people when they've been rugged.
That's terrible.
But I'm glad that feature exists.
Joseph, I'm so sorry.
Passing it right back to you.
Please pick up where you left off.
All good.
All good.
That's hilarious.
They have the feature for being rugged.
Just showing how often this happens.
Anyways, as I was saying, personally, I'm super hyped on merging.
I'm super excited for this chat.
That's awesome.
I think we can go ahead and get into the conversation.
So I know a lot of times we're talking about how great the intersection of AI and blockchain
But one way I want to start this discussion is actually the data privacy concerns.
So currently, one of the biggest concerns with AI is the vast amount of personal data
that it requires.
And blockchain, while it's secure, it's very transparent by design.
So for those more with, like, a dev background, how are we addressing the privacy concerns in
this intersection?
And can we actually protect users' data in such a public ledger system?
Sawyer, I wanted to start with you and get your take on that before I pass it to Spawnstar.
Sure thing.
Glad to be here.
Hope everybody can hear me.
Sorry for the late join.
But yeah, I think that is an absolutely loaded question.
I have a very, probably different opinion than most on this since I spent a number of years
actually building software to solve these problems.
Ultimately, didn't really wind up doing anything because, or at least shipping too much because
it's so broad and difficult.
But I think the answer to your question is it's very hard to do because there's so much
data.
The data is everywhere.
And at the end of the day, the majority of the data is controlled by somebody that's not
you, right?
And so if it's requiring your data to make something happen, well, you don't really have
a say to begin with.
So I actually think this is one of the areas where ZK will be very beneficial long term.
I think giving control back to a consumer using something like ZK can then allow potentially,
you know, more granular controls over how AI can then consume it.
But I don't think we're anywhere close to that yet since we're still running primarily
off of the same internet.
We've just kind of talked, you know, blockchain on top.
So TLDR is, I think it's, there's a lot of things that have to be done to make something
like that happen.
I don't think there's a direct resolution today, but I'm curious to see what the AI experts
on the panel will have to share.
So over to you, Sponstar.
No, it's funny.
You brought up ZK.
That was kind of like, I was literally going to start talking about zero knowledge proof and
how it is the solution for privacy on chain.
And, you know, I've been doing this for a very long time and we've looked at a lot of
different options around, you know, how do we not only give the data back to the user,
but we make sure that the user knows how to use that data and maintain his privacy,
right?
Because you have to build the systems in place so that, you know, the user doesn't know.
You got to hide the tech and make it kind of like idiot proof in a way.
And what zero knowledge proof does, and I'm not sure if everybody knows what zero knowledge
proof is, but it's, you know, you can use someone's unique part of his identity.
It could be a phone number or an email, et cetera.
That becomes the creator of a semi-custodial wallet that someone is kind of like setting
the rules on it, creating simple UX on it.
And that semi-custodial wallet can then connect using cryptography to different assets, images,
et cetera.
And so it creates kind of like a protection layer that the user itself isn't directly
connected to, you know, the information.
There's layers of cryptography that live there, but it also creates ease of use and ease of
accessibility because, you know, nobody wants to remember all of those seed phrases or figure
out kind of like, you know, how to build the backend systems.
They just want to, you know, access their interface.
They want to connect, you know, you want to connect with Google or you want to connect
with whatever it is that you're using.
Facebook used to be back, big back in the day, et cetera.
But, you know, you want to be malleable on how you had let the user in, but at the same
time, you want to be able to separate and create components around all of the different
layers of that data and have cryptographed, you know, processes on top of it.
So agreed, it's not the easiest, but I'd say with everything that we have built these
days and everything that is available, like even open source, if you use a lot of third
parties to do the things that you don't do too well and you just focus on building an
incredible interface that makes it super easy for the user to understand, it's the future.
It's the future of data.
It's the future of, you know, the user owning their data.
It's the future of the user farming their data, selling different layers of it to different
communities that make sense to them and receiving rewards.
And AI has really kind of like accelerated that process because, you know, we can replicate
all of the different layers of cryptography in processes all around the entire code.
You know, you don't have to kind of like go and do that one by one at a time.
And so, yeah, it's an incredible time once again for data.
Um, it doesn't, don't roll up to defeat the entire purpose of a blockchain.
Like blockchain is meant to be transparent.
That's why we're all here rallying for this industry because we're tired of, you know,
secrecy in financial systems.
It's like when you think about the 2008 financial crisis, when they were doing like the mortgage
backed securities and collateralized the obligations, it's because we had no transparency
on how those actually worked on the backend.
It was all like bullshit.
So I don't know.
That's, that's had the, you know, the blockchain existed at that time.
I don't think the crash would have happened controversial take, but it's like, why do
we want ZK rollups to privatize data?
Then why, why don't we put it on chain?
I'd love to address that immediately.
So the data is still on chain.
The data is still on ledgers.
The assets themselves are still on chain.
So for example, let's say you put the, the, the paperwork of a Tesla on chain and every
time it gets taken into the store, uh, for, you know, break pads or whatever it is, that'll
be on the ledger attached to that car.
What you are building privacy for is who, you know, was the owner of that car so that
not, it's the same thing that rich people have always done when they buy houses.
They don't put their name on, uh, you know, Zillow.
You can't open up the house and see that it's associated to a rich person because they'll
have an LLC that will protect their privacy.
We're just making that technology available to the masses.
But the transparency of the asset life cycle itself, which is one of the biggest benefits
of blockchain for everything, for identity, for real world assets, et cetera, is, and your
point to the 2008 financial crisis, we would still have transparency of everything that
was in a CDO.
We just would hide the identity of the person that owns the CDO just for their own protection,
but you'd still be able to trace that back to an LLC or whatever.
That would, you know, give you clues as to, to, you know, how to get there.
Uh, David, I want to pass it to you.
I saw your hand was up as well.
I mean, I was gonna just comment on the ZK part of it.
I mean, at the moment you have like personally identifiable information that's used in AI
training and inferences, particularly for like LLens.
Uh, and I think it just makes the model and the inference richer, right?
You get better results without it.
The, the system can quickly lose like context.
The interesting thing is that this is really at the expense of privacy, right?
So you get this inverse type of relationship between the strength of the model and the user's
willingness to give up their privacy.
Uh, so I think that there's quite a lot of use cases where particularly in the enterprise sector
where companies want to interface with these types of models without exposing private and
sensitive information, you know, um, perhaps you want to run an inference on sensitive customer
data that you don't really want to disclose to the party that's hosting and serving the model.
Uh, and I think their ZKs are probably, it's a very elegant solution, but it's not the only
one.
I mean, um, there are technologies in multi-party computation and fully homomorphic encryption
and ZK that can achieve similar outcomes.
Uh, it'll be interesting to see which one of them actually wins this race.
Interesting.
Thanks for sharing that, David.
Um, we can come back to that in a bit.
Irina, I kind of wanted to pull you in here since you're working on like governance and
politics with AI and blockchain AI is often criticized for its inherent biases.
And when those decisions are logged on an immutable blockchain, they become permanent.
How do we handle the ethical concerns around AI biases and blockchain apps?
Is there a risk of locking in these biases on chain?
I mean, AI is, uh, is a very concerning thing from many points of view.
And, uh, we have to be very mindful about what is, uh, what goes to blockchain and what
doesn't go to blockchain, right?
Where do we have an application of AI right now?
Well, mainly in bots and supports for, um, documentation, um, some kind of customer support, um, developers
do use AI to, uh, you know, check the code, but then we have TEEs, uh, agents, uh, it's really
for me, not like, you know, that we have to use generative AI to write.
Um, whatever we create, whatever information we create on the blockchain.
I mean, in general, we shouldn't have a lot of information on the blockchain.
We have to be very efficient and effective about what kind of data we want to be recorded
there forever.
Um, and also take into consideration that blockchain space is quite expensive.
Um, so this is why you have actually, uh, an additional, uh, cloud systems and storage
systems, uh, and you only have a hash on the blockchain, but then your actual files, if
we're talking about NFTs, for example, they have to be stored somewhere like IPFS, um, and
whatnot.
And now we're seeing, um, that, uh, a new system, supercomputer systems are coming in place
like gem by Dr. Gavin Wood.
Um, so we're yet to see what that will exactly mean for, uh, for the post web, um, era, because,
um, it's not like, you know, we're talking about web three and then metaverse.
And then now we have AI.
So what does this all convergence of multiple fast growing technologies really mean?
Well, it really means that we are creating the new internet.
We're creating layers that are deeper than the web and applications.
Uh, and when it comes to AI, we have now, um, actually, uh, a very nice organization.
Led by, um, ex-founder of, um, consensus, Michael J. Casey.
And this organization is called decentralized artificial intelligence society.
So I'm watching that very closely, um, because, uh, I believe what we will begin with is, um,
um, a set of, um, common rules, practices, and principles, um, by which we should implement AI.
And we will have, uh, two confronting, um, sides of the industry.
One will be led by the tech giants like Microsoft.
And the other one will be led by decentralized, uh, decentralization maximilists and potentially
Elon Musk, um, who's also, you know, um, actually a person behind open AI.
And we already had this debate where, where this space, um, should go.
And for me, it definitely should go towards decentralization.
But most importantly, we need to be much more conscious and much more selective of what
data, um, we're processing and most importantly recording.
Yeah.
That's very interesting points, Irina.
Um, just generally for the audience, guys, do we need blockchain for AI?
I know a lot of us are building apps around this, but if you have like, let's say something
like open AI, how are you going to pitch it and be like, you know what, actually you need
the blockchain.
You need a shared immutable ledger, um, for your AI.
And that's just the best way to do it.
Why is it the best way to do it?
Sawyer, of course this one's for you.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm here.
Don't worry.
Um, I think the, the answer comes down to transparency.
Um, not just with the data being in input and injected and scraped by AI, but the outputs
and the understanding of how is AI making decisions.
Right.
Um, I think, you know, probably everyone's here.
Um, everyone here is probably at some point used, um, some AI tool.
And I think, you know, it's pretty crazy when it just starts to spit information out
you, you know, very quickly.
Um, but sometimes it gives you answers that just don't make sense that, um, you know, maybe
if you're doing code, it doesn't work.
It doesn't work or if you're, you know, asking for, you know, guidance, maybe the guidance
is just completely off.
And so I think, you know, blockchain is one of the, um, one of the ways to get more transparency
and consistency from the data sets and ensure that what's coming back actually, you know,
makes sense, aligns maybe is, you know, um, uh, we'll call it compliant data or legal opinion.
I don't know.
I don't know something in that ballpark, but I think that's kind of one of the biggest
reasons for me is, is the transparency behind the input and the output and how it's actually
making decisions.
But, um, yeah, hopefully that's kind of a, a good, um, good intro for everybody into
my thoughts.
We'd love to see if anybody else has some, uh, some ideas on that.
Yeah.
David, take it away.
The way that I would pitch this to open AI is that blockchains can address some of your
most pressing challenges.
Yeah.
So for example, last year you had 15 billion images that were created by AI in one year.
That's 150 years of photography.
So blockchains can help verify the authenticity of that content.
Um, training compute for frontier AI models has increased by a factor of four times per
year over the last 10 years.
So blockchains can help broaden access to compute.
Trust in AI companies fell from 50% to 35% between 2019 and today.
People don't trust these systems.
So blockchain can create transparency around open and user owned services.
And then lastly, the models from these players are trained on trillions of tokens, trillions
of data units.
And the people that are contributing those are unpaid contributors.
So blockchains can help to create a market and help to content compensate IP and data contributors.
So there's a reason why these two technologies are converging.
Both the AI stack and the blockchain stack have their own problems.
And I think that the AI stack can look for solutions to some of those problems in blockchain.
Um, anyone else want to add on that before I have a follow up question for David?
Yeah.
If I, if I can kind of chip in, I think that's a great point to, to bring up.
Um, sorry, I, I don't know how to raise my hand.
Sorry.
It doesn't give me the option for that.
Um, irritated if that's okay.
Um, but I just kind of wanted to add on to, to David real quick, because essentially is
100% correct.
Uh, and to, to tie into that, I kind of stand for that.
We don't necessarily have to deploy everything on the blockchain.
Um, there's obviously like a ton of limitations to consider computational power being one of
them.
Um, you know, like if you think about a block and the size of a block, this at the moment,
currently no way that I see at least technically, but you can pump all that training data in a
single block or, you know, um, on a chain at the moment, at least not one that's, you
know, designed or specially built for handling that kind of data.
But, you know, using the AI in tandem with a blockchain, uh, is, is I think where we can
definitely get a lot of, a lot of attraction.
Um, I mean, a great example of this.
Well, an example of this is, uh, the emergence of AI trading bots that can trade for you,
which is absolutely insane.
If you look at some of those leaderboards on exchanges where those bots outperform even
be most skilled traders with the correct amount of data.
Um, and I think that's really where we can, um, you know, utilize AI alongside, uh, the
blockchain, but yeah, my opinion is I'd like to hear other people's opinion on this as
well.
Technically what limitations have you experienced with the AI on the blockchain as opposed to
with the blockchain?
Thanks guys.
Yeah, that's an excellent question for builders.
Um, feel free to chime in if anyone wants to respond to NFT pixels question.
Sponsor, take it away.
Yeah, I feel like, you know, it's, it's kind of the other way around.
I love that you asked that question, right?
It's like AI is out there.
It's such a powerful tool.
It's kind of like running wild and unleashed right now with, with little to no regard to
copyright.
Uh, and I feel like blockchain is the tool that kind of like puts the checks and balances
in place.
So the idea to, to have a fair, uh, AI library that is blockchain tracked so that we can pay
royalties directly to the creators, uh, of the original IP in the exact proportion that,
you know, the gen AI model kind of like uses, uh, those different components to, to, to produce
an output.
I think that's an area of AI that, you know, it's a perfect marriage between AI and blockchain
because I agree, not everything needs to be on chain, right?
What needs to be on chain are the essential parts.
And then you can actually kind of like map it all back and have fair models of, of compensation
moving forward.
That's actually, so I love to look into the critics take on our, on our industry.
So we can understand like what the outsider perspective is like, but so many of them say
like the blockchain is just creating solutions for problems that don't exist.
Um, of course, like, I don't agree with this, but I also think that there is a lot of fluff
in our industry.
And I've talked to Sawyer about this a lot, but I think it just applies to everything.
Like 99% of startups fail.
Cause it's just fluff.
99% of meme coins fail.
Cause they're just fluff.
Um, well, it's just really interesting to like, think about these things.
Joseph, if you wanted to add anything there.
I mean, that's applicable to basically every industry everywhere, right?
That most of the startups fail because of different reasons.
I don't think blockchain or web three is any different to that, but I want to add quickly
to the previous, uh, discussions that we actually don't need to store everything on chain.
And regarding the privacy thing, what we need to have in mind is that even with centralized AI models,
like open AI, we still don't share our most private, uh, data, right?
Because of the same issues, whether it is on chain or off chain, we still don't want to share
that with them because it can be misused.
So I think it's a, an important conversation, but I think, uh, the closest future of merging AI
chain would not include this conversation.
That's my opinion.
I think, I think storage and GPU is, um, more, more closer in the future than privacy
when it comes to merging these two technologies.
I will agree with you.
And I hope that's the case.
Um, I think not, I think we should never privatize anything on chain.
And if you do want to privatize it, don't put it on chain.
Medical data doesn't need to be on chain.
Simple as that.
It's like people's addresses.
Sure.
Don't put them on chain.
But I feel like you're going to use a chain, like make it transparent.
That's why we're all here.
I think it's mostly applicable to like financial systems.
Um, but great points, Joseph, uh, NFT pixels.
I see your hands up.
Yeah.
Sorry, guys.
I finally figured out how to raise my hand.
I'm not a, a social guru, like, uh, like the rest of you guys.
Um, no, I, but all seriousness, I, I just want to add to, to yourself.
I fully agree.
That's such a great point to bring up, right?
Because if you think about security at the forefront, the blockchain is meant to be transparent.
And if your kind of model is behind training AI based on these public sets of data, people will actually be able to farm a whole bunch of data.
And that's if, you know, across multiple blocks, um, you can actually store that data.
So I guess this is a great point, uh, a great place to shield scale with, um, with it's gas-free and it's large blocks.
You can store quite a bit of data.
So I do see that being somewhat feasible on scale.
Uh, if not now, maybe in the near future, but yeah, that's just a great point to bring up.
It's like, Hey, do you really want to be putting all that data for everyone to see?
And especially if you think about competitors, if you don't want to, like, if you're really kind of over the whole privacy thing and you're like, ah, it doesn't matter.
Um, other people can take those data sets and use it as well.
So there's obviously quite a few challenges.
Um, so I just want to add to it to you as a bit, cause I, I fully agree, man.
That's spot on.
Thanks.
Oh, hell yeah.
Plugging in scale.
I didn't even have to do it.
You did my part of the space, but you know what?
It's so funny, kind of a tangent, but you know, the people up here on the stage or generally the builders in our industry are like geniuses.
They're blockchains, a new technology.
It's not the easiest thing to code.
AI is already complicated.
We have people that are building the intersection of it, but they don't even know how to raise their hands on Twitter.
What is happening?
And if you pixels, I was a jab at you.
I know, I know, I know.
Uh, it, uh, it's, it's rough.
I'll be honest, you know, I'm getting old now, unfortunately, uh, but it's okay.
Well, you know, live and learn.
It's all good.
Why don't we teach the man how to fish click on the little heart?
And then on, at the end of the little heart, you'll see a little hand, you know, and, and now you're, you, you learned how to fish easy collaboration.
That's what this industry needs.
Yeah.
I'd, I'd rather hate on him.
And then spawn star can help.
It's good.
It's a nice mix of folks up here.
Um, with our last 20 minutes, I want to just go around the panel and I want each of you guys to tell us what are some AI blockchain intersection technologies are most excited about.
And it can definitely be something that you're building, but I'd love for you and just very, very simply to talk about these things.
Like, for example, if we have, you know, Jonas in the audience and he's just starting to learn about AI and blockchain very simply be like, I like, you know, the, this protocol because they're allowing AI to choose your ice cream flavor.
Just like simply, how does it translate to the end user?
Um, we could start with AEO.
Um, well, I was just going to say real quickly, and I guess you could segue into your questions.
Like, I thought what just happened was really interesting how we had a builder who didn't know how to raise his hand on Twitter.
But he's a great builder and you highlighted that point.
And I think that's really interesting.
And we've been talking about all these like different, um, you know, different trilemmas and stuff inside of blockchain or, or AI and some of the things that hold us back in building intent products.
But, you know, when we're building these things, I think it's really often done that people forget like what it's like to be a user.
And know nothing about any of this stuff.
And like how that translates into the user's experience, building from the user back to the technology.
And, you know, it's, it's really easy to call things like meme coins and stuff like that fluff.
But it's also kind of like the lifeblood of the institution right now.
So, um, I think, I think it's a really interesting thing.
And to segue into what I think is really cool, um, right now at the intersection of AI and stuff outside of like a lot of the theoretical stuff that we've been tossing around, like ZK and like attestation kind of protocols and stuff like that, or deep end kind of protocols.
Um, I think like, you know, some of these, and this is probably going to be a little cringe, but I think, you know, some of these, uh, AI started like cults and religions around meme coins.
Um, like truth terminal or, uh, uh, uh, uh, Opus is doing.
I just think it's like fascinating because it's starting like these bizarre cultures, like around kind of like just absolute, like, um, I don't know, training data gone wrong.
Coming out of these like little networks of agents that are also deploying meme coins that are getting attention from people like, uh, Anderson Horowitz and stuff like that.
Um, and seeing like huge pumps.
Um, and I think it's easy to just dismiss that kind of stuff as like fluff, but I think there's some really, really, really fascinating stuff going on there.
Um, and honestly, it excites me more than a lot of the, uh, infrastructure kind of, uh, approaches.
I mean, in the future, obviously a lot of these technologies that we're talking about are super important.
Um, especially with, you know, uh, kind of training data and stuff.
But personally, I think when it comes to royalties and things like that and people being paid out, like for their IP, I think that's going to be something that dies.
Within the next like 10 years, you know, I think it's going to get so confusing.
Like what image started where and how people used it, that it's going to be like kind of worthless to the end user and maybe even to the creator itself of IP.
But I don't know.
That's my two cents.
That's very interesting.
So finder said that correctly.
Um, well, who gave the stat?
Um, well, who gave the stat?
They were like, there was over 50 billion images created by AI last year.
Uh, that's insane.
But, um, yeah, like tracking where did images start?
I think if we had the blockchain, we could be able to track like the origins of things.
I think that's a really dope use case.
Especially like, I don't know if you guys saw, but like during wars and stuff, there's so many fake images.
They're like, oh, this is what happened in so-and-so country.
But it's actually a picture like 10 years ago from Iraq.
Um, we, I'd be interesting to be able to confirm and verify actually exhort exhort is, um, a project building on scale and they're doing something like that.
Uh, but next I wanted to pass it to, uh, Joseph.
Tell us what's the most exciting innovation for you with the intersection of AI and blockchain.
I mean, the thing, um, in love with is AI agents and a project that I admire is Alethea AI.
Um, they are bringing AI agents on chain where you can train them for different, um, different reasons or to do different tasks, different actions.
And for me, this is one of the projects I admire the most because of all the things we've discussed, such as integrity ownership, uh, but then also having a twin that can help you out, whether you're an individual or a business and the different tasks for you.
I think one of the brightest use cases in the closest come year years.
Um, yeah.
Um, yeah, Alicia AI.
It's awesome.
Thanks for sharing.
Uh, next going to pass it to, um, David.
Sure.
Um, so I mean, like the previous two speakers, I mean, I'm, I'm excited about agents, but I'm excited about the infrastructure part of them.
I think when I look at the agent landscape today, I think that most of these solutions are bots.
Um, that are dressed up as agents with an LLM interface.
Uh, uh, so I'm excited about the infrastructure that is required to get them to be real agents.
Uh, uh, and what I'm excited about there really is creating the tooling and the infrastructure that those agents need, uh, to become much more powerful than what they are today.
Uh, so for that, uh, we've built our own proving system, for example, um, that lets us verify inferences that these agents can use.
Uh, and we spoke with ZK earlier.
Uh, our proving system is about a thousand times faster and cheaper than zero knowledge based solutions.
Uh, and it's a plug and play system.
Uh, so unlike, uh, it's not very difficult to use, you know, you don't need to adapt your model.
You don't need to purchase any special hardware or install any type of new virtual machine for it.
Uh, you can, you can use it out of the box.
Uh, and I think that this is something that will help, uh, turn.
Hopefully help contribute to make these bots into real agents.
Yeah.
So that's the thing that I'm most excited about.
Awesome.
Thanks for sharing.
Oh, I'm so curious.
The one of the speakers mentioned about the AI trading bots that are out trading traders.
Um, and it's like with crazy accuracy.
So isn't that like too much of a cheat code because, uh, trading is a zero sum game.
So there has to be losers on the other end.
If we're, if I'm just thinking like, in theory, if we had just like, let's say you're on Mexi
and you have a hundred AI bots trading and they're the only ones trading is like who actually ends up winning
or there's just some algorithms that are better than others.
It is just like humans.
Go ahead.
Sponsor.
Yeah.
I feel like that's, that's the point that we think of all the time, right?
Like how the arbitrage changes over the years, according to what the most mainstream technology being used is.
Right.
So quant traders have been around for a while.
Uh, and it's, you know, it's, it's mostly seen as a, as a, you know, smaller, lower margin,
but quicker return, uh, trade versus kind of like the long-term value investor, which requires a human being.
Right.
So a human being still needs to go do the fundamental analysis, look at the people, understand who runs the company, understand if they're going to hit guidance.
If they're not going to hit guidance, do, you know, cashflow analysis, use whatever it is that is, is, is their driver.
Right.
That's what makes a model unique.
It's a personal driver of behavior that the, that, you know, fundamental analysts can put together.
And that's why we have like these incredible stories of like George Soros versus their British pound.
I think we're going to have someone in the next years that is going to win against the fed in terms of, in crazy trades that, you know, will, will make them a, you know, gazillionaire.
However you want to call that.
I don't know how much money that would be at the time.
Soros made, I don't know, a billion, um, against the British, the bank of England, but that was so many years ago.
And so it's, it's, you know, for the, for the kind of like for the quick return buck kind of trades, I feel like the arbitrage on that is just going to get smaller and smaller.
Cause there's going to be so many eyes.
We're running those quant trades all the time.
So it's, it's going to be about kind of like a returning to the fundamentals and looking at, you know, the most important building blocks of a, of a company, which are their people.
So that's my two cents.
Love that.
It's a very wholesome take on trading.
Um, I believe we went through the entire panel minus Sawyer.
If you're back, um, would love to just hear what you were most excited about in the intersection of AI and blockchain.
Um, I know you have to go do something and like talk to one of the devs, but other than that, did anyone have any concluding statements before we hop off the space?
All right.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah, I'll, I'll say, I'll say one thing.
Uh, we're, we're, we're, this is an incredible moment in time.
We're in the right place, right time.
If you're here, if you're in this room, you've already won.
Even though it seems like we're in this crazy bull run right now, this is literally only the beginning.
And we, you know, we've been talking a lot about if there is going to be a massive correction, this cycle, there's always some sort of correction.
That's the, you know, that's the nature of life.
But I don't think we're going to have another Enron moment, which was our FTX, Terra Luna, et cetera.
I may be wrong.
God knows there's, you know, there's always bad actors, but I feel like the industry is evolving and I feel like we're moving into mass adoption.
So stay strong.
Don't look at price action as much.
Look at infrastructure.
Look at number of users.
Look at how these two things really are a marriage.
And it's, there's three parts to it, right?
To Web3.
There's XR, which is, you know, VR and AR that we didn't address today, but that's also evolving at crazy speeds.
There's AI, which is kind of like the engine that makes the menial task no longer exist and allows us to be able to put up new projects in three months and, you know, look at all of the inefficiencies in our systems.
And then there's blockchain, which is the trust and the blue check mark that allows for that whole system to run together, run ethically and put the, I love what you said there, scale at the beginning.
Like not everything needs to be on chain, but put the essential parts of what benefits from being on a transparent ledger on, on, on, on change.
So brave new world, incredible to be here in Web3 and let's change the world together.
Oh my God.
I love that. So inspirational and very loving the vibes.
And I'm glad, you know, so many of us have been here for years going through these red markets, but, you know, we stuck around cause we really do love the tech.
Yeah.
So I hope everyone has a great rest of their Wednesday.
This was a very fun conversation next week.
We actually have a space on NFTs.
I don't know if you guys have been seeing, you know, the NFT marketplaces or a lot of the tweets, but volume is coming back into NFTs and solid communities.
Just to show you that quality always prevails.
But as always, I'm your host with scale.
Scale is the gas free invisible blockchain interoperable EVM L1s built different to scale gaming AI and any high performance DAP for the masses.
I hope everyone has a great rest of their day and thank you so much for joining us.
