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The RWA Watering Hole #31
Recorded: March 26, 2026 Duration: 0:59:53Space Recording
Full Transcription
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Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Thank you. I'm I Oh I'm going to go to the next video. Thank you. I'm going to go to the next video. Thank you. Music Music Music
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Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music I'm sorry. Music Oh All right, all right, all right all right all right it is thursday which means it's time for another rwa watering
hole thank you scofield as always there are intern with the rwa foundation always helping
put this together i appreciate you my man hope you hopefully you're doing well today doing fantastic i can't believe it's thursday already um spaces keep getting
better and better i'm sure this one will be no different so i think we're waiting on one more
guest but um good to get started and then uh they can catch up when they join i think we certainly
can and as always we do record these sessions. So anyone who joins late can, can come back in and we'll definitely let people know. A lot of people do check it out
because they just can't be here right now. But, uh, we've got some amazing speakers already.
I'm excited because I haven't had a chance to really dive into them. I don't always
not know everybody. So that's kind of cool. And, uh, I see some familiar faces in the audience
here, driven my guys.
Hopefully that's Rex behind the account or whoever.
Love to see you here as always.
Hopefully everything's going great.
Proud foundation member over there.
We got Neo Finance.
All right.
Got to check you guys out as well.
RWA Agent 007, great name.
Akash, always here.
Love to see you, brother.
And Bull Zig, welcome back. Akash, always here. Love to see you, brother. And Bull Zig, welcome back.
Welcome back from Zig Chain.
Kevin, I'm going to start with you from Saturn Credit.
How are you today?
I'm good.
Thanks for having me.
Great to hear that.
Where are you calling from?
Our team is based in New York, so we're all in New York right now.
Awesome.
East Coast, Best Coast.
I'm here in Miami, so i got i gotta say that and uh what's your role with saturn credit and
tell us the punchline of what saturn credit is yep so i'm the co-founder and ceo of saturn and
we're building a yield-bearing stablecoin credit platform back with micro strategies
prep um so we're really bridging this off-chain bitcoin
finance market back on chain i'd love to hear that that is definitely something i can imagine
everybody on this call is excited to get into i see uh tom from my exec in here as well and
another thomas from dusk joining what's going on welcome in welcome in we also got tomer uh from
textile protocol how are you tomer i'm good how are you iile Protocol. How are you, Tomer?
I'm good.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
Where are you calling from?
Israel.
So if I have to disappear in the middle, you have to excuse me due to the situation.
Hopefully, you are in a good situation for now.
Hopefully, nothing happens to you.
We, of course understand um but uh tell us uh
what's the punch line of uh textile so textile is etsy for private credit organization the idea is
that a debt fund or think the company that wants to tokenize a credit line not only that basically
bring all the infrastructure on chain can do it it with a few clicks of a button.
So now if you are a company that wants to do
the tokenization of real estate in Germany,
or invoice back lending in Japan, or you name it,
you no longer need to know how to code in solidity,
what are audits, you could just come to Textile,
click open a new credit line, go through a simple process, and here you go, you could just come to Textile, click open a new credit line,
go through a simple process, and here you go.
You have a tokenized credit line.
Incredible.
I love that.
Well, we're going to get into more of the product and the stack and how you got and
maybe some of your customers and such.
But we always do like to get into getting to know who our speakers are as well.
So do you mind?
What do you do with
Textile and can you tell us a little about your background? You know, always fun, you know,
maybe what was your red pill moment into RWAs or crypto?
Yeah, well, that will expose the world again. But my red pill moment on crypto was 2015, 16, I think. So Dan Lerner just launched the Steam Network.
Steam Network was the first social network that started rewarding people with the token
for, like, rewarding people for the content that they wrote.
Dan Lerner later was a founder of EOS that raised $5 billion, the first proof stake network. So this is where I
was red peeled. I was very excited about what incentives can do in designing a new future.
Quite a no-gy in the system. I am also a GP in Floyd Ventures. We invest in the intersection
of blockchain and emerging markets, usually stablecoin solutions. And the architect of GoodDollar
did a few projects in my life.
Today in Textile,
I'm the founder and CEO of Textile.
So it means that I do everything
from cleaning the toilets
to designing screens
to sales to marketing.
Yes, it does.
That's the job.
But you know what? It also means both from you and kevin we get to hear it from the horse's mouth which is always fantastic so i'm sure all of our listeners
here appreciate you and your time today we do like to round robin and as we wait for our third
uh guest to come up on stage here and get them introduced. I'm just going to kind of jump back and forth.
And I'm going to go back to Kevin with the same question.
What did you do before starting Saturn?
I see you did Artemis before that.
Can you just tell us a little bit about your background?
Yeah, I was previously working at Artemis.
I was the lead researcher there.
And then last year I was pushing crypto equities
internally. And when kind of DATs popped off, I became the DAT lead there. I designed the product,
integrated data with all of the dots, and then really led the golden market there.
And then I also met my other co-founders at Artemis as well. And they were the stablecoin lead at Artemis.
My crypto moment was in 2021.
I was previously working at an Asia AI DC, actually.
But my boss was a huge Stepin fan.
So I got really intrigued with Stepin.
And that's kind of how I got in.
It was a crazy time.
I remember stepping.
That's pretty cool.
And awesome to see you now taking the lead here with Saturn.
So why don't, why don't we start there?
You guys were working at Artemis together. It sounds like, and I guess you most, most,
I guess agreed on what the future of this market look like is what I'm
guessing with rwas
and needing uh you know your solution tell us to tell us the origin story yeah i think for us it
was we were really i mean for me i was really following micro strategy what michael saylor is
doing and essentially what he is doing is really pioneering this intersection of Bitcoin and TradFi.
And he is creating different Bitcoin-backed fixed income and credit instruments in TradFi that pays an 11.5% yield.
That's backed 4 to 1 by the Bitcoin on its balance sheet.
At the same time, I was doing a lot of research at Artemis into RWAs.
I was doing a lot of research at Artemis into RWAs, and it was that DeFi is looking for
yields off-chain and private credit and corporate credit is of very high interest.
So I had this epiphany last year that was if DeFi wants yields from the off-chain economy
and MicroStrategy has created one of the best crypto credit instruments in TradFi. We should merge these two and offer on-chain users the access to MicroStrategy's prep.
I love it. I love it.
So when was this exactly?
How long have you been working on this?
Yeah, so Saturn has been around for six months
and it can only be around for
six months because MicroStrategy only really started issuing these Bitcoin back fixed income
last year. And the most important instrument that they have issued is called STRC stretch,
which is an 11.5% yield paying preferred equity that is traded on the NASDAQ.
And MicroStrategy would increase and decrease interest rate based on the price.
So if it trades below $100, they would increase rates.
If it trades above 101, they'll decrease rates.
So you can kind of think of this as like a soft pick stablecoin in TradFi that pays a high yield.
And we thought that this was the best collateral asset for our on-chain yield bearing stable coin actually
yeah that makes it makes a lot of sense and uh how have you gone about sort of the the tokenization angle have you already launched or uh and if so can you tell us a little bit more about sort of
the providers or the underlying tech stack yeah so, so we are currently in private beta.
So we have $10 million of capital in private beta.
And our public launch is going to be in early April.
So we're looking to scale quite quickly over the next few months.
We see that DeFi is looking for high yields, right?
So having an 11.5% base yield is very attractive. We have like
a standard kind of token issuance type of structure. And all of the off-chain components
is handled by Galaxy. So we're working really closely with them. We have like a two token
model like USDAI in which we have USDAT which is a stablecoin.
It's backed with UST bills and then users could stake that for SUSDAT which is essentially a vault
backed by MicroStrategies PREF and when users stake it we would off-ramp the UST bills and
buy stretch off-chain and when users unstake we would sell the stretch
and unramp it and mint back our stable coin um so um the flow will be very um
similar to how usdi is essentially functioning right now
no that that makes a lot of sense and are who's able to like use and participate in this?
Is this mostly targeting sort of institutions
or other issuers in this space
that are looking at Bitcoin
or like sort of like,
who did you attract this capital from
and who you're asking for,
or who's even able to participate
once you do go, I guess, public?
I know you're in private beta.
Yeah, so we have two assets.dat is going to be kyc mid and redeem but anybody can access it via dax and anybody
could permissionlessly stake for micro strategies stretch pref instrument um so we're open up to
everybody um in our private beta um it's mainly big institutions and yield funds
and family offices that has been really using the product. We have an institutional setup,
so we want to target institutions, but we want retails to participate as well.
I love that. We definitely all love that here too. This is the future of RWAs is creating
what I see is these foundational bricks, these building blocks that people can use or
take advantage of for their own investment strategy. So you guys are building out a very
unique one right now that I've never come across myself. So kudos to that. And obviously,
we can talk
about a little bit of the concerns around what might go
wrong or could go wrong with microstrategy or otherwise, but
we're going to hold that off. And as I said, we do like to
round Robin, certainly a risk of losing Tomer, we don't want that
to happen. I'm gonna bounce it back to him. Tomer, let's start
off with you on the origin story. Where did it all begin?
So as a VC, I invested in quite a few classic Fintech companies.
And something that I've noticed that all those Fintech companies are very
successful at doing the last mile.
They come in, they're lending back by invoices, lending by trade of bills
for exporters, microfinance lending, like you name it.
I've invested in quite a few successful
companies.
And what happens is when they come and they need to raise their actual credit facility,
they need to raise the 10, 20 million dollars, like check size, this is where they meet the
actual price of credit.
And the actual price of credit is not what they have expected.
All of a sudden, they meet debt funds that come and tell them,
well, they're willing to give you money, but it's 25%, 23%.
And then I started asking myself, well, why is that happening?
Apparently, the infrastructure that is needed
in order to securely give private credit in the classical is very expensive
due to regulatory structures and operational structures.
If you read into those documents, people who were used to smart contracts,
it immediately will come to your mind and say, well, why do you need to spend $80,000 on legal contracts
if all the legal contracts says is, oh, there is a waterfall of payment.
This entity is being paid first. This entity is being paid second. contracts, if all the legal contract says is, oh, there is a waterfall of payment, this
entity is being paid first, this entity is being paid second, this entity is being paid
less.
Why do you need a CFO to cost $20,000 or external CFO to cost $20,000, $30,000 a year if all
it does is make sure that collateral came in and only then the loan came out?
I say, well, those type of infrastructure are classic to the blockchain space.
So this is what brought me to say, well, we want to rebuild the supply chain of credit
in order to have all those type of transactions that cost so much money today in the traditional
system to come happen on chain and to be led by smart contract rules rather than legal documents.
I love that. Rebuilding the supply chain of credit.
And tell me, where are you guys today in terms of, you know, are you live? Do you have some customers?
Yes. So we launched the product only a month and a half ago.
So started with few of the early stage customers.
The TVL is at half a million dollars.
We have few big deals that will bring us to $30 million of TVL over the next, I assume,
three months as it rounds up.
A few of the companies that you can already tap in today is
People doing microfinance in Colombia, GEO doing invoice-back lending in the
Philippines, Finanex doing trade finance out of Latin America and a few more
interesting deals and a lot more exciting. Ah, and power doing mortgages in Kenya and so on.
This is where we stop.
A subject that we are looking into very deeply now with all the cross-border facilities, on-and-off ramping companies.
So if anyone in the audience is coming from that sector, please reach out.
But this is where we are basically.
Did I disconnect? Can you hear me?
Yeah, I think we can hear you.
Okay, yeah. So this is where we are.
Seems like Herwig's having some connection issues.
I want to introduce Sergio, he's come on late.
He is with Record Nexus.
Sergio, how are you getting on?
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from Switzerland.
How's everyone doing today?
Apologies for the delay,
but I always get time zone wrong for some reason.
No, don't we all.
I think the US had some time zone changes
over the last week or so anyway.
Yeah, exactly.
That always gets me every year.
I'm so used to the minus nine
and then it changes
and then my agenda goes all over the place.
Anyway, thanks for the invitation.
Happy to be here.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So we'll start with what's the punchline for Record Nexus?
I mean, we tokenize intellectual property.
As simple as that.
For us, the asset is IP.
Historically, we've been working for over five years on music intellectual property.
I mean, the origin of the project goes back into 20 on music NFTs. We have done some interesting
stuff with diesel artists, and we somehow spent some time understanding how blockchain could help
the music industry, and IP management became the core, if you want, value proposition for us.
In a beautiful world, if you would have intellectual property registering the blockchain from day one, I mean, all the problematic in money not reaching the right holder would disappear.
You would have a global ledger.
You will be able to license music out of
blockchain and collect the cash flows back and basically have a sort of American Express
system in music which today we don't have. That was the initial value prop. And then
considering if you want what's going on in the market, the focus on RWA, we somehow advance
the value proposition looking at the financial side of the project and tokenizing
income stream coming out of music intellectual property
licensing.
No, very good. And is that an Italian accent I hear?
Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I've been living in London for 25
years and I haven't changed my accent.
Good, I'm hoping to visit in the summer, but we'll leave that conversation for another time.
We're just trying to get Helwig back up on panel. Seems like Elon's still not fixed the spaces.
So yeah, what are you guys doing at this minute? What have you done in Q1 and what are your short to medium term plans?
We've been repeating consistently the same exercise for over a year now,
because we need to create a market for something that doesn't exist. So on one side,
we've been talking with record label IP right holders and trying to understand how to intercept
the financing activities, which in an industry like music, they're very well structured.
So there are ways that artists record label managers, they raise money and produce cash
flow.
So we need to talk to them and say, listen, there is an opportunity
to actually do it in a different way.
So a securitization on the blockchain
for us is basically tokenization.
And on the other side,
we've got to convince the capital provider
to get exposure to a new asset.
So this is like the focus
because technically there's no much
that we could add, If you want, once
you have the agreements and you link a token to the underlying legal agreements, fully on-chain,
that's it. That's what we need. We need a financial instrument to provide exposure to
a set of music rights and provides an yield back to the investor. So that one is done,
is the easy part. So we've been focusing on trying to bootstrap the whole marketplace.
That makes a ton of sense.
It's interesting, but I can't lie, tokenizing the music records,
it's a first I've heard and I find it super cool.
Can you walk us through exactly how you do that?
I mean, it's something that is done already on the private market. I mean, for me, what is
interesting is that when you look at tokenization, you can do two things. Either you create duplicates
for existing liquid assets, and the example can be on-do and tokenized shares. Like, shares are
liquid. There is a stock market, so you can buy, sell, trade, you can do whatever you want.
You don't really need a different form.
You need it for a number of reasons, improvements, transparency,
effectively something that you can already do.
The second aspect of RWA is can we use this opportunity to unlock
to unlock and bring liquidity to new assets.
and bring liquidity to new assets?
And that has been our approach.
And that has been our approach.
We know that the market of asset-backed securities
or music rights has grown from $220,
from a few billion to $25 billion,
I think $30 billion of transactions.
Problem is that all these transactions
are basically executed privately by the usual suspect.
You have the five top private equity funds and pension funds in the world,
which by everything comes to market.
And it doesn't reach family offices.
It doesn't reach retail.
And music retail is principally consumer.
The only thing they ask you to do is to pay your streaming membership,
buy tickets, go to concert, buy t-shirt,
and contribute to the creation of wealth,
but they don't somehow share the opportunity to participate to the wealth creation.
So that's very simply what we've been trying to do.
But the underlying agreements and the whole process is already somehow created by the industry.
So we just need to copy and carry it and bring it on chain.
No, that's brilliant man how
long have you been working on it if you don't mind me asking uh i mean the journey started in 220
so six years yeah i would say that the pivot on blockchain and rwa was 23 to 24 so it's now a
couple of years two years and a half nice value prop so i'm
gonna pass it over to kevin now uh i think he disconnected but i think we've got him back kevin
you there yes i'm back yeah good to have you back uh so so what is what is uh what does your q1 look
like and sort of what are your short uh sort of medium term plans for sort of the year of tokenization as we call it
yeah i think our team has just been preparing for launch over the last few months um we're in
private beta now and our public launch is going to be in a few weeks so really making sure that
that that the debut is good um all of the integrations are lined up with Morpho, Pendel, Strata, and
then really just scaling our TV out to 100mm is kind of like the target.
Yeah, well on. Zeus, you there?
Hello, hello. How's it going?
Good to have you here. Zeus is driving at the moment, but I believe he's managed to park
up and help out while Helberg is able to connect.
I'm here, I'm here. How's it going? I'm, um, yeah, these spaces, the times are a bit tricky.
I know Sergio got a bit mixed up too. I typically drive this hour during the day, but I am parked
up as I saw Helberg. Can you hear me from the Foundation account?
Oh! Yeah, we got him on.
You can hear him. from the foundation account oh no we got him on fuck
oh maybe he's gone again is he gone schofield yeah it says he's a listener yeah he's gone
no that's fine we can we can take it over i mean i've obviously listened to a lot of bits here and there um from both kevin sergio and tommar who's dropped down but i mean yeah sergio over to you how do you guys kind of
differ from so my first kind of introduction into the the ip slash music royalty sector was back in
2021 with the company called opulus, I think they were called.
They were kind of tokenizing some form of music rights.
What are you doing differently to them?
Do you know who they are, first of all?
Yes, I do.
I remember them because we studied them. But I think it was more of an NFT packaged with music rights stream like Royale.
And then regulation and compliance basically destroyed the whole market because they were not NFTs, but they were security token, what
they were selling.
So, yes, well, I remember I got burned.
It was, this was back when the only exchange I used to use was Qcoin and any coin that
got listed on Qcoin got pushed to the max it got it got sold to you like
it was the next big thing and i just remember putting some money in and it going you know
through the roof and then all of a sudden trickle trickle trickle the the coin the chart starts
going down and down and down and it never seems to have never seems to have recovered but anyway
forgetting that do you guys have a is it just
a strictly a platform that you have or do you have a token to or is it just stable coins
you run it with?
We got a token tool which is I was reading your articles on good project and bad tokens
remind me where we see it because in the community must be really, really annoyed of where we sit.
But I think everyone got stuck on the expectation in 2024.
We launched in July 2024, assuming the bull market, assuming a lot of things about what would have happened in the following month and nothing really happened.
Somehow my worst case scenario of almost a Bitcoin-only cycle
came into the picture.
But anyway, this one I think at this stage is irrelevant.
Back in the bear, that's my philosophy.
Keep on building, keep on cracking.
Somehow when market cap is small,
you need very little to somehow regain value.
So it's more important to get it right.
And it's also an opportunity to restudy the token economics, because I think you've wrote a lot of
articles on token economics. And in RWA, it's really tricky. We lost completely, if you want,
the future expectation. The old crypto cycles, I believe it seems to have, 213, it was always on narrative, like what is going to be the next project, who is going to grow, what is the next winning trend, that was, I mean, apart from staking, basically, most of the places like zero utility.
now it doesn't work anymore people look for value people look for sharing of revenues people look
for different models compliance is not clear so we're gonna need to sit down and redesign a lot
of stuff i think buybacks yeah revenue sharing and this kind of models has to come into the picture
of course of course yeah i mean things have changed over the years and like you said tokenomics and
what people are looking out for have definitely evolved and people are starting to realize that a lot of tokens have have no value and and again that's
just kind of the way the the markets went it's kind of pointed towards the the use of stable
coins a lot more than projects having their own tokens and that's absolutely fine um i wanted to
pass over to kevin briefly kevin from a revenue kind of standpoint how do you guys plan on generating
revenue what kind of streams of income are you guys going to have to keep the business flowing
yeah for now we have two main sources first is we take 10 of the yields that we
generate with the staked asset and then we also take 100 of the stable coin
interest revenue um so these are the main two ways and as we also take 100 of the stable coin interest revenue so these are the main two ways
and as we kind of um design and issue more products i think um that revenue stream would expand from
there okay and i guess you guys are are you guys product based first and then a token or what kind
of uh scenario are you looking at sorry i didn't hear from the start so i'm not sure if you spoke about this before
as in are we gonna have a token or what do you yeah both i assume you're launching the product
first yeah so first product and then um we're probably gonna have a token um but the token
will be the main value accrual is how we see it. Okay, awesome.
And same question for Tomer.
Hello, first of all, how are you doing?
Very well.
Thank you for joining.
Of course, thank you for joining.
I missed the start briefly.
So again, I don't know what you guys have all touched on.
But same question kind of goes for you on the revenue side as to how you guys generate that revenue for the business.
So there's two sides of the business.
There's the tokenization, basically an issuance.
And then there is what we call the automated trust, replacing the full infrastructure.
And we take two separated fees.
For the issuance, we take 10% of the interest generated, similar to what Kevin is doing.
And on the trust side, the automated trust, we take 0.05% per transaction that touched
the trust.
Okay, and you guys are, I assume again, product based first. Is there any plans for our token or are you strictly just product?
No, there is a plan for a token, but it's a very long term plan.
We are coming from the play where we say token is only needed when it's serving the system.
And it will take it a bit of a while for the token to actually be serving
the system.
I'll give a bit of our token economics just because I think it's interesting for people
who like token economics models.
So every tool in textile is built off a borrower, the fintech company.
So let's take an example.
There's Kipu.
If you look at a textile product now, you'll see that Kipu Bank is the biggest pool right now.
It's a microfinance company in Colombia.
And the Kipu company, as the borer, is going to have an underwriter.
This underwriter coming in is a huge debt fund.
It's a billion-dollar debt fund from Latin America called Adem Capital.
And we see the underwriters of textile ecosystems as the equivalent of miners. They're
the people who are coming to make the network as trusted as possible. They are the ones who
are doing the due diligence over the deals. They are the ones who are doing the concept monitoring
over the deals. That's why the supply of the token is going to go to those players. So it's not the token that will be distributed for investors or for the borrowers. It's for more the people
who specialize in private credit, bringing good deals to the network, who underwrite
the deals, and they're the one who will be enjoying the tokens. The utility of the token
will be about access to pools. So if we have multiple people who want to get access to a pool, your way of front running,
similar to how it's happening on blockchain, would be paying an extra fee, a bribe, to
get your place into those pools.
And all of our fees will go to the token in order to share it in a decentralized way between
all of the underwriters in the network.
Am I back now?
Yes, you're back.
Yeah, we got you.
All right, Elon's done messing around with me.
I'm sorry if I missed this and thank you Zeus and Schofield taking that over man you did great by the way natural it's good good to have you on here Tomer we'll start with you and go around the room but sorry if I missed it but what's the underlying blockchain tech stack is it multi-chain are you using a tokenization engine did you own? Well, we built our own in the CVM.
So we are now on Ethereum base, Stellar and soon Arbitro.
Or maybe my city already pushed it and we already live on Arbitro, but somewhere over there.
And what was the thinking, you know, the rationale behind going down that path just for other builders
or even those who may be taking advantage of your platform in the future.
So there's actually, it wasn't a decision because you are killing a bit of the network effect by
spreading the liquidity around between different networks. But on the other hand, because we are
infrastructure, I am not tokenizing anything. It's very important to mention. I am an infrastructure for anyone,
any fintech company to come and to tokenize their own asset. So once you're coming from
the perspective of saying, well, I'm not a tokenizer, anyone else is a tokenizer, you need
to be serving them where they have their own connections. So if a company comes to us and
says, well, you know, I need another EVM
chain, because this is where I have connections with the foundation, this is where I know the
big capital provider, this is where I know the people, we will serve them wherever needs to be
served. So that was the rationale behind being the multi-chain that we are.
Now that makes a lot of sense. And it's a trend that we see across many providers and platforms.
I'm going to pass the same question to Kevin as well.
You know, are you backing, are you built on, sorry, again, apologies if I missed this,
but are you built on, say, you know, like a liquid or another sort of Bitcoin type
smart contract space solution or what is the token on?
Yeah, so we agree with Omar.
We are chain agnostic. We don't really care which chain we're on um as a yield product we're on eat because the liquidity
there and the defy infrastructure is the most mature and we chose evm over svm for example
because we want to do cross chain so for us for us, ETH is our starting point.
We also want to go to BNB, Harbitrum, and OP.
So it doesn't really matter for us which stack it is, but we start on ETH.
Yep, a consistent trend that I think has been learned across the industry
the last couple of years that, you know, RWAs are multi-chain.
Depending on where you want to bring them, you can make it happen.
Last question, same question for Sergio.
Nice to meet you, man.
Sorry I didn't get a chance to say hi earlier,
but love the accent and love what you're working on.
Sorry if I missed it as well,
but can you just tell us a little bit more about sort of the product architecture,
the blockchain support? Yeah, no worries. Nice to meet it as well, but can you just tell us a little bit more about sort of the product architecture, the blockchain support?
Yeah, no worries. Nice to meet you as well.
I mean, we started our journey back in the days in Polkadot.
Then I became a fan of Bayes very early on.
So I would say that we are designing work on Bayes.
We have done like a partnership last year
with Plume because I think when you look at RWA, one of the main, if you want decision on
which kind of ecosystem we want to join and partner to is capital formation, right? Because
if you tokenize, if you serve clients which are tokenizing
the biggest question in crypto,
who's going to buy these tokens?
That's what I
ask myself very simply because
crypto investor and retail doesn't really want to have
an yield. So whatever product
is yield bearing,
effectively, we're still
chasing the pumps and the
multiplier on project tokens.
But I'm not sure there is the large market on, if you want, real world asset yet.
It's mainly institutional.
So that was the underlying decision.
Who's the guys out there which are building the stronger relationship with
institutional banking, institutional money, like private equity funds, the funds manager,
where that ecosystem is going to start, if you want, delivering capital into the product that we deliver.
That was the thesis.
Yeah, and I imagine that obviously the more institutional investors care more about certain features,
maybe either permissioned or just simply an easier user experience than obviously, say,
a DeFi native who wants to be able to take advantage of in certain ways.
So do you see yourself evolving eventually down that road?
Or do you think that primarily this will be sort of where the market shifts first,
where institutions will drive that adoption, at least for your sector, right?
That one is a really good question, because what I haven't really understood yet
is exactly how capital moves, if you want.
Because if you talk to banks, I've been a regular at the Goldman Sachs digital asset event,
I've been going into these environments
and understanding how everything moves around.
And it looks like we're still in a phase
where most of the capital moves traditionally bank to bank
and tokens are used more as a,
how do you say, as a clone of ownership,
so as an administration tool,
but it's not yet the trading product
that people are using daily to manage portfolios.
All right, and that's, I think, one of the problem
that we need to see happening,
because otherwise, I mean, we got a lot of TVLs
that maybe is an underlying representation in money
effectively transacting bank to bank in the traditional world.
That is a thesis I've been discussing with a lot of people.
I don't know if anyone here has a specific view, but I haven't seen a full adoption.
We don't go and do a bank draft anymore to buy, if you want, that fund or that exposure of the asset.
And we just go crypto native and we buy an RWA token.
I haven't really seen that happening mainstream yet.
No, that makes a lot of sense.
It's, in fact, a hard lesson many learn.
I've been in the RWA space back when they called it security tokens, 2018,
2017. And these markets take time to form. What is interesting is we're in a unique,
perfect storm, as I like to say, where crypto natives are finally embracing the potential and
capacity of RWAs, while at the same time institutions are also embracing it, even arguably regulators and legislators right around the world have in the last few years now started to put in legislation.
So it is always an important strategy to consider about who you're going to go after.
who you're going to go after and boiling the ocean can sometimes be,
And boiling the ocean can sometimes be difficult.
be difficult. We are, um, in the last sort of 15 minutes of the show.
So I do want to make sure we get some key either alpha or announcements out.
Uh, and maybe we'll, we'll keep on you, Sergio,
and go around the room again. Uh,
anything major coming up that anyone should be aware of or any call to action
terms of anyone who might be listening,
how they might be able to collaborate with you?
I mean, on the technology side, not yet.
I'm in a time where I'm hoping
we're going to close the tokenization deals
because we've been bootstrapping,
trying to close deals for a long time.
And the trick is that the traditional market always gets quicker.
By the time you sit down and you explain how token works,
what's the differences between a tokenization or an advance agreement
to someone in an industry that understands a little about technology.
I mean, by that time, traditional capital has already closed the deal.
This has been our biggest struggle.
So no alpha for me today, unfortunately.
But I mean, I'm getting closer and closer and closer.
So hopefully at some point, one is going to be triggering
and then it's going to be an escalation of this coming through.
And finally, we're going to get to deliver what we always wanted to deliver.
That's my consideration.
I'm rooting for that 100%.
So hopefully when that does happen, we'll get you back on the show
and you'll be able to be loud and proud about it.
But same thing over to Kevin.
Kevin, any major alpha announcements?
Maybe something from private to public beta
or something to get involved in the private beta somehow?
Yeah, for us us our public launch starts
in around two weeks and we're gonna have of course like a points program so uh everybody stay tuned
we're also going to announce our own kind of ambassador program um for our community members
and everybody online um that revolves around around content creation as well as community management.
So stay tuned for both the public launch
as well as the ambassador program.
Yeah, thank you.
And I'm going to stick with you
before I go to Tomer for his alpha announcement
just because you said you're in New York earlier, right?
So Digital Asset Summit is happening right now.
How's the buzz over there?
Did you attend any events? any alpha you've seen or
anything you'd like to share with everybody about sort of the mood or the
the sense yeah I mean all of the institutions are quite excited for
tokenization a lot of big institutions as well as our daily folks are here so I
think in terms of like from ourWA and tokenization point of view,
it's full steam ahead.
And I was at Hong Kong Consensus as well,
and stable coin at RWA was kind of like the top pick of town.
So really excited for where the industry is going.
Yeah, that makes me excited too.
That's hype.
This truly is the year of tokenization over certainly any other
again referring to that perfect storm all amazing projects like yourself including
textiles so tomur what alpha you got for us or what what big news should we all be aware of
so i'll start with again my call out if someone in the audience is looking for float capital for on- and off-boarding capital to crypto
as a private credit line,
we have capital looking for your deals.
So that's for the people who are looking actually for money
in the sector of on- and off-ramping to crypto.
The people who have this problem are well aware of that.
On the exciting deals, I sadly can't tell yet,
but there is an 18% deal that is about to come out
with one of the biggest unicorns in the global south.
It's a microfinance company,
one of the leading top four microfinance companies
in the world that is coming up with us
we're now like in the last miles of structuring we just want to go out with a big shebang
so i can't drop the name yet uh but do uh do wait for this announcement i'll say that
oh yeah you know how to build some hype here and wow what a what a watering hole 18 11
Oh, yeah, you know how to build some hype here.
And wow, what a watering hole, 18%, 11%.
Despite where the market is, that gets me pretty excited hearing all this happening.
And I'm sure Sergio is going to drop some amazing deals soon, too.
So we have the last 10 minutes, and we do need to end sharp on the dot.
So good news for anyone who's got a meeting to jump to.
I don't know how we want to play this.
We could either go, it's almost like we can go down the prediction route,
or I could challenge everybody to say,
what do they think is their biggest weakness?
It's kind of like truth or dare.
You get to predict, or you get to say,
what do you think is your biggest challenge?
So, Sergio, what are you going to start with?
Do you want to tell us either your biggest challenge or a prediction for where RWAs are headed by the end of the year it's got to be
a good one can't be soft good what it means that he has to be positive a wild card has to be wild
card it can't be basic like you know it's got to be something like all right that's got it that's
a real bet he's putting some money behind it. But I'll give you both.
I'll give you a prediction
that includes a challenge.
Like, from someone who has been
in the industry over 10 years,
I've been a regulator,
I've been sitting with funds and banks.
Like, my biggest worry
is that we're going to get
somehow, how do you say,
excluded by the game.
Like, crypto hasn't evolved, hasn't evolved from 2017.
Like still there, same conversation in community groups.
We haven't become solid professionals yet.
And this one is an issue because if banking and institution are going to move with a technology
that is relatively easy, because I always say Ethereum, I mean, it's almost all there, 90% of it.
You tokenize, you issue token, you have liquidity, you can pull everything up.
Like banks are already building blockchain. We're going to see tokenization happening
in the traditional financial system
and not happening in 10 years of work
to create an ecosystem
it's not really a prediction
because I don't want to say what's going to happen
but this is a risk
it's more a prediction of a risk
either we get our big shoulder on the board
and we start focusing
or either that might happen.
You went with both, and I'm an and over or guy,
so that's good enough for me.
You did answer the risks and the challenges ahead,
but I think you're right.
If we can overcome that, the future is going to be positive.
Same question for Tomer.
You've got to choose either both or one or the other.
What's your biggest fear or worry or challenge
or a wildcard hot prediction to stun us all?
I'm going to bring a sad prediction, okay?
My sad prediction is that blockchain eventually won't be used
as an end-user technology.
So I think what we see today happening to Bitcoin,
nobody's basically using the Bitcoin network.
Bitcoin is a ledger to be connecting these centralized exchanges or ETFs.
We all hold it, we all buy it, but nobody's really doing it on-chain.
So the same thing is going to happen with RWA.
The RWA issuance space on-chain is going to become the single source of truth
that multiple centralized entities will be selling.
So this is my prediction to this market, that it's not going to end up with people coming to textile and buying those assets. Hopefully it will be those assets
will be traded on Binance will be traded on Coinbase will be traded on centralized exchanges
and in textile or any other RWA will become basically a new ledger and issuance platform.
That's my prediction.
That's a good prediction. You know, a lot. This is a background technology and
the amount of education and friction someone who has never experienced crypto with,
it's a challenge to explain it on the benefits of RWAs. Now, obviously, walled gardens and other
conflicts arise as a result.
And I think that's always been one of the themes of at least blockchain and crypto to be able to be able to take advantage of that.
Right. So we'll see, hopefully, that maybe you're not entirely right and that we do still have pioneers leading sort of a front end world where we can really use assets to what i think is a whole new capacity beyond
just sort of in the background but for the average person i believe you're probably right that is
where the technology will be headed kevin your call now how are you going to follow up that one
yeah i mean i'll kind of answer both and it's kind of related i would say um number one i think for us since our yield
source is this off-chain credit instrument um by micro strategy i think the hardest thing for us
is just education and making sure people understand what stretch strc is and from a prediction point
of view i fundamentally believe that one of the reasons why I started Saturn, is I think Stretch will kind of redefine on-chain yields. So it'll probably be the first
RWA to scale into the billion marks,
and I think it'll be the most important asset by the end of this year.
That is hot, and an answer to both,
so I love it. Way to work it. By the way,
hey Zeus, didn't get a chance to say hello, man. How are you?
Hey, I'm doing well driving
I'm actually getting a coffee right now and but I want to listen to your prediction first and I'll go after you
I want to hear what you guys are so I was gonna say if you had any
Rebuttals any of that or challenges feel free, but otherwise I'll run with it for sure
Yeah, go ahead. Then I'll go. then i'll go thank you oh yeah no you know
i i always uh tend to lean very bullishly right um i know everyone has everyone's been a little uh
down i think about where the state of crypto is but i've never been more excited about what
the future looks like for tokenization and i've got a little bit more of an inside scoop too, because we just announced tokenize this again, fourth time I get to host
this conference. It's going to be in New York city. Uh, it's June 23rd to 25th. It is heavily
institutional. It's part of the reason that I came to the realization for the RWA foundation
and for Wally and what we, what our mission is here. But I do also then, as a result, get an inside scoop of what's happening with, indeed, what
was said earlier with Kevin regarding some of the biggest banks, the S-managers, and
really all TradFi, is bullish and excited about this technology.
Those genies out of the bottle, if you will.
And it's actually now a bit of an arms race to start figuring out who's going to carve
out what territory.
Now these arms races move at a snail's pace for traditional finance, right?
It will play out over years.
But their timetables are accelerating.
And I'm aware of some very exciting product launches that are going to, again, very much
legitimize a lot of this technology that has been put in question by a lot of the trends and fads that
have occurred, let's say, throughout the history of crypto. So what is my prediction? I think
we're going to see the year of tokenization turn into the year of tokenized stocks,
personally. I think that's going to be one of the biggest conversations that bubbles to the top.
I think that's going to be one of the biggest conversations that bubbles to the top.
And I think we're going to see volumes in the trillions potentially in trading over a trillion in trading volume.
Also, we got to be wild card hot.
A trillion in trading volume and public equity securities that are tokenized by the end of the year.
So that's my bullish prediction.
That's my bullish prediction, but Zeus, what you got?
Wait, wait, wait.
Zeus, what you got?
Just in that.
Sorry, you're saying there's going to be a trillion of volume just in stocks and equities alone.
Correct.
God damn you, Bill.
I'm a wild man, Zeus.
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.
I know you are. I know you also have the highest predictions, but funnily enough, you know me.
I know you are.
I know you also have the highest predictions, but funnily enough, you know me.
I'm similar to you with the bullishness, and I like to get a bit of an insight into what the people are thinking.
So we did a poll on the foundation page the other day, actually, and I think it got over 100 votes.
And I think 72 or 75 percent of people said that over 100 billion of distributed assets will be on chain by the end of the year.
over 100 billion of distributed assets will be on chain by the end of the year.
So I thought that's quite a big...
As a 4X, and we're already nearly in April,
so there's only, you know, eight months left of the year.
That's not my prediction. I just thought I'd put that out there.
I don't necessarily have any predictions.
I just think that there's going to be, similar to you,
I think stocks have led the way and are leading the way particularly
for retail um you know retail wants something that's normal and that they've traded before
and i think that that is stocks that is commodities i think that private credit will
obviously it's had its run it will have its run it will do well um especially because of the the risk factor and i think that
all of us in this space know that settling for a four percent treasury or bond yield isn't really
enough for the the defy connoisseurs they want a bit more they want the 10 they want the 15 and
more so um yeah again i don't have a set prediction as such but i just think we're going to see a
a large increase in in distributed value so i don't know a set prediction as such, but I just think we're going to see a large increase in distributed value.
I don't know if we'll see $100 billion, but I think we'll see close to it for sure.
Yeah, that's exciting.
10 times trading volume on that, and we start getting to those numbers that I'm talking about.
It's not so crazy.
Look, we're going to drop it out here.
I want to just run around the room 30 seconds each Sergio website or X brand
that we should be following is there an account yeah thank you for for having me
record Nexus so at record Nexus and record.nexus if someone want to have a
look at what we do and looking forward to the next one thank you fantastic
appreciate you having same same thing
kevin thank you guys thank you for having us please stay tuned for us all right all right
and finally tomar uh where can we find you i'm just gonna search for textile protocol here on uh
uh next that would be the easiest oh you know my personal account um fantastic i'm sure you guys
are have dms open and are eager to collaborate it was really great having you all just makes me
again so excited about the future of the space and we will be back again next week thank you
for everybody who joined us i really do hope you have an amazing rest of the week and i i appreciate
all the projects you guys are working on familiar with many of them and need
to become familiar with more and maybe we'll get a chance to have you up here so with that everybody
all I can say is happy tokenizing and have a great rest of the week awesome thank you Thank you.
