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The SelfCast - Ep 1
Recorded: May 30, 2025 Duration: 0:49:57Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, industry leaders from Inflective, KIP Protocol, and Vaynar explored the future of Web3, emphasizing the importance of AI in enhancing user experience and the critical partnerships needed to drive PayFi adoption. With upcoming project launches and a focus on transparency, the conversation underscored the transformative potential of blockchain technology.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi everyone.
Hi, hi.
Welcome Matt.
I want to do a quick test, see if you can hear me clap Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, hello everyone. Happy to see some old and new faces joining our self cast series.
Let's give a few more minutes for more people to join, including our guest, and then we'll get started.
But for now, you can like, comment, and retweet the space
so more people are aware of the session
and the discussion we're about to have today.
Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I think we've wasted a little bit of time, so let's slowly get started.
I think we're missing one speaker and we'll just kick this off while waiting for him.
I'm Julia, the social media manager at Softain,
and I'll be your host for today's through the space.
Actually, this is our first episode of our Softcast series,
and I'm so elated that we're kicking it off with
some very awesome builders in the space.
Spark excited about today's topics.
We are going to be discussing AI, PFI, automation,
and how we are shaping the future of Web3
and where we are headed in general.
So I'm super, super excited actually
to have our amazing guest join us today.
So let's start off with an introduction from our panelists
so everyone knows who they are and what they're building.
Matt, would you love to go first thank you very much hey everyone thank you so much for being
here today i'm matthias i'm the co-founder of inflective a little bit about me i've been
coding and building platforms and solving data problems for over 12 years mostly at
very large corporations like the largest
fashion group in the world etc in the past and basically I've noticed that
there's a lot of data problems in web 2 and when I joined like web 3 about like
four or five years ago I saw the same pattern so when inflective we're solving
data problems we're solving bad quality data, raw unstructured data.
We're making it structured and AI optimized.
So basically, just like in general,
solving data problems for web-free projects.
Other than that, we're also adding the layer of ownership
and basically monetization on top of that.
Everyone, including you in the world,
is sitting on a ton of very valuable data. On top of that, everyone, including you in the world,
is sitting on a ton of very valuable data.
Basically, we treat data as a liquid asset,
and we're opening up the data economy so everyone can participate.
Everyone can create their data sets, own them, basically,
and tokenize them to give the data sets exposure. And this is what we're doing with Inflective.
So very nice to be here.
And I'll hand over to the next introduction.
Fantastic.
Can we, Jen from KIP, would you love to go next?
Hey, GMGM, everyone you love to go next?
Hey GMGM, everyone. Nice to be here.
Yeah, so my name is Jen.
I am Chief AI Officer and Co-Founder at KIP Protocol,
currently focusing on the Superior Agents Project,
which is very present here on Twitter.
You just have to search for it.
We are building genuinely autonomous,
self-improving AI agents for trading and for other things.
So they scan the market.
They check out what's going on.
They come up with their own trading strategies.
They execute them.
And then they evaluate the results for future reference.
I tried to buy the dip, did it work? I tried to sell the top, did it work?
And so on and so forth, getting better over time. So yeah, that's us. Thanks for having us.
Amazing. Okay, our next speaker, George from Vanar.
Hey everyone, good to be here and good to have you all here.
I lead ecosystem and partnership, institutional partnerships at Vaynar.
We are a layer one blockchain, but we're focusing heavily on becoming an infrastructure,
an intelligent infrastructure where AI can understand human behavior, not through invasive data,
but through some meaningful signals on the chain. So we're focusing a lot on PayFi, on AI,
and on RWA, and those are going to be our main verticals with heavy focus.
with heavy focus.
Awesome. Thank you all for that amazing introduction.
So I am pleased to have such great minds in one place.
Can't wait to learn from your valuable contributions.
Oh, and I also want to add, if you have any additional opinions
or insights, anything actually, you can just feel free to chime in at
any point this is an open discussion and i'd like to hear your perspective on any of the topics
so for my first question uh is ai a necessary shift for web 3 infrastructure a little bit of
context there as ai and ai agent become more capable of handling user actions and decisions. Is this a transition essential for scaling up three,
or is it just one path among many?
Mark, I think this is for you.
You said Matt, right? That's me.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, a necessary shift.
I mean, in a way, absolutely, right? I mean, definitely in a lot of ways, I mean, a necessary shift. I mean, in a way, absolutely.
I mean, definitely in a lot of ways, I think.
Like, basically, building Web3, which is the future of the internet, basically.
I mean, it's the current state of the internet.
We're just waiting for the adoption rate to fall.
We're almost there.
One billion users, right?
AI, it's incredible.
Like, I'm a coder myself, for example,
and what you can do today by using the right basically AI tools just to develop and to ensure
basically code quality and actually the speed of production, speed to converse with something
is incredible today. So a necessary shift shift i think ai is just going to help
out providing like so much more security um for example like uh on the blockchain but also like
in terms of production the quality is so much higher so the more ai and ai agents i think about
all these ai agents for example like, like trading bots, et cetera,
become more capable of doing user action decisions
and the better data they have basically to support those decisions,
it's going to help not only scale Web3,
but really make Web3 present in everyone's life.
I think we're all waiting for the adoption rate basically to be there
to a sort of level when, like for example
like the internet the first days, like everybody was
like, oh, e-commerce, that's never going to happen.
Right.
It's basic technology
and human behavior and for Web3
we're just waiting for that and I think AI is just going to
help us get there faster. So
a necessary shift, I think
absolutely yes, it think absolutely, yes.
It's an amazing shift.
It's an incredible time to work on Web3 at the moment with AI.
That's a great point.
Okay.
Anyone else want to add to that?
a gen available?
Jen, you feel a little?
Yeah, I mean, I would say that
Yeah.
there is no sector that isn't
going to be kind of vastly changed by AI.
Even the ones you least expect, you know, plumbing.
You think there are only so many ways to connect up a toilet,
but I'm 100% sure, you know,
AI and especially robotics ai is is
absolutely going to hit the the world of atoms just like it's hit the world of bits quite soon
i mean we've seen the chinese robots that are coming out right now it's stuff that i would
have said would never be possible six months ago is kind of every day now. And I think Web3 is really going to be at the forefront of that,
just because Web3 people tend to be so much more open to new ideas. It's really kind of remarkable
the degree to which I'm in Web3 every day, and everyone is so keen on AI and embracing it and using it to write contracts and to test contracts and to make their agents and all the rest of it.
And then you step outside the bubble of Web3 and I wouldn't say there's uniform hostility, but there's far more hostility to new tech and far more suspicion.
uniform hostility, but there's far more hostility to new tech and far more suspicion.
Which, yeah, fair enough. It's a fair enough take to have if you don't like data scraping
or you don't like slop or whatever. But the fact remains that being anti this is not going
to stop it happening.
You can either be ahead of the wave or you can be kind of swept away by it.
So, yeah, I think every sector is subject to the same pressures at this point.
It's just Web3 has the benefit of being among the first to realize this.
Thank you for your response. Personally, I think that aside from AI being a global meta, it might be what Web3 currently
needs.
Web3 has already come a long way with making roll-ups, chain and account abstraction and
all related advancements.
And in a lot of ways,
those have really helped scale up three
and improved user experience in general,
at least technically.
But when you step back, it still feels harder
than it should be to navigate the space.
And that's largely because of fragmentation.
Everything is not under one umbrella
in a way that makes it easy for,
let's say a newbie to navigate seamlessly.
I think that's where I see the value of AI
not as the only platform,
but as something that might help unify all these layers
and make them feel more coordinated from the user side.
So yeah, I do think AI might be the necessary shift
for three for now, and in my opinion,
the easiest part to
encourage our global adoption so I think we can move on to the next question uh can we standardize
agent behavior without killing innovation you know with multiple uh teams building AI systems
agent systems is there a need for shade standards or will that limit creativity
yeah i could take this one actually it's interesting because i mean
standardization i mean i see i see different layers here right i think standardization is
definitely important when it comes to for example compliance or for example uniformity of data
data structures right um because the issue is the fact that it's not enough standardization
in data at the moment, for example.
Yes, we talk about agents, but behind the agents, there's data, right?
So standardization and uniformity in different ways
are basically going to make it so much more efficient
and actually economically feasible to work with agents.
Other than that, there will be areas I think where there's less standardization needed,
maybe in terms of structuring workflows, but allowing creativity, exploration, for example,
to be there.
So it really depends on the kind of agents.
If you have an agent that is going to create art, for example, or something. Or maybe if you just have agents that work with standardized business models,
maybe that's fine.
So it really depends on the use case.
So I see a lot of different layers here.
But in some areas, definitely, there's a need for shared standards.
You agree, you agree.
Jen, do you want to pick that up?
Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, I think this is a really interesting one because I think we
saw something quite similar to this in the very days when people were first kind of learning how to code with AI or write code that incorporated
generative AI elements. When we first had Langchain, I think, and I was as excited as anyone
else when Langchain first came in and was thinking, wow, this makes life so much easier. It's
this incredible resource. And then the more we used it it we kind of started to realize that okay well it makes what it wants
you to be able to do much easier but as soon as you step outside the frameworks that it's
that its developers have decided that they they think should be easy for you, it kind of, in many cases,
tends to make things harder because it's an opinionated system
and it's trying to force you towards what it thinks you should do.
And I think there is a risk for that kind of thing
with these multi-agent system frameworks
and with sort of standardized tool use kits like MCP,
that it's going to make certain pathways so easy that people neglect the non-easy pathways,
even when they are inherently interesting and worth doing.
they are inherently interesting and worth doing.
So yeah, I think there is a risk
that this level of standardization
will reduce innovation.
But probably only in the short term, I would say,
because Langchain at the end of the day,
it didn't kill chatbot creativity.
And we're still coming out with new ways to integrate code and prompting. So yeah, I think this thing will swing back
and forth but it will eventually find its own level. Thank you. Really interesting perspectives there.
Okay.
So, wait, hold on.
Just give me a minute.
We can jump to the next question.
Is PetFi the key to real-time global transactions with the potential of instant low-cost payment, work infrastructure, and adoption challenges,
where is PayFi overcome to become a viable alternative to traditional system?
I think I will share this question first at Bernard,
since you guys also focus on PayFi.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm here.
Yeah, like I said, we're focusing heavily on PayFi,
and I'm sure you heard that we have a strong partnership with WorkPay and working with them very closely.
I think there are three main hurdles that PayFi has to cross to be able to get to this level.
So there's the liquidity, there's compliance and maybe user experience. So when I talk about liquidity, so for real-time payments to work, you need very deep liquidity across fiat and digital assets, which means stable coins might need solid reserves.
Bridges need to be super secure.
And payment endpoints, wallets and bank APIs,
they all need to be interoperable, right?
So this is in terms of liquidity.
Now, if I want to touch on compliance, it has to be at scale. You can't have real adoption without proper regulatory framework integration,
which means KYC that works across jurisdictions, not just in a
specific country or a specific region. AML checks that are embedded without friction. And we need
smart contract logic that reflects real world rules globally, cannot have a transaction happening
from one jurisdiction without rules. So all this has to be embedded. And third point, if you want to talk about the barriers,
I think it's the biggest one.
It's adoption won't happen unless PayFi becomes really invisible.
People don't want to think about which chains, which tokens
they want to send $5 to a friend,
and they just want to know it's going to arrive in two seconds,
not two days, with no hidden costs.
And this is, I think, where Vayner and WorldPay come in.
We're making sure the rails are compliant, the ramps are intuitive, and the architecture is modular.
That way, business can plug in once and unlock global payment network that works across both fiat and Web3 ecosystems.
So, PayFi wins by replacing banks.
It wins by abstracting them away.
So users get spread affordability and trust.
So without needing to understand all the back end we're having.
Awesome. Anyone else want to contribute?
Jen, are you there?
Yeah, I think I would kind of by and large agree with the previous speakers.
It's, I think previously,
you know, you had to have a real reason to want to pay for something in crypto.
No, I don't just mean kind of speculation,
although that is obviously a big use case.
Essentially, if you're buying drugs or something,
then yeah, you have a solid reason to pay in crypto. If you're buying drugs or something then yeah you have a solid reason to pay in crypto
if you're buying a cabbage then maybe not so much
and that has been kind of a major hurdle
but weirdly then you also have AI that is kind of helping to bridge that
not through technology but just because it's being regulated half to death.
And a lot of people don't agree with that regulation.
So you've got people in China trying to buy GPUs with Bitcoin and all the rest of it.
if there is someone out there who does manage to really crack this,
to get something that is like WeChat Pay or Alipay in China,
which is just so useful and so flexible,
and you can do such fun and interesting things with it,
and you're not being penalized every time you make a transaction
with fees and with uncertainty and delays and
all the rest of it, then they're going to crush it.
And I think Ton is probably the leader when it comes to this, not just via Toncoin, but
via Telegram Stars as well.
So they're kind of hedging their bets with one crypto and one non-crypto system. I have apps that use Starz,
I have apps that use Ton,
and I think if they can reach critical mass with this,
particularly, I would say,
in markets like Indonesia, like Nigeria, and so on,
then Telegram and Ton and Starz
are going to be kind of the next juggernaut, the next TikTok.
Okay, thanks for that. Awesome. I appreciate all the insight.
Okay, so for my next question, I have LLMs as a Web3 interface layer.
Do you see large language models
becoming an integral part of how users interact with Web3
embedded directly into the wallet,
dApps or protocols to simplify onboarding and execution?
Sorry.
I think, Matt, can you go first?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, this is a very interesting one.
I really like this one because think of it like a front end, right?
A user interface.
At the moment, like using these apps, for example, like going online,
you still see a lot of kind of older user interfaces.
user interfaces I mean like more like 2018 or like even older than that
I mean, like more like 2018, or like even older than that.
basically you have forms you have like basically all the pages all the components
interact with now all of that is gonna disappear eventually right because like
now we're using laptops now using like a smartphone but all that's changing into
like for example AR in the near future but also think of
it like in the future we're just going to be speaking to a large language model and at this
moment what do we know as a replacement in terms of having something in the UI that's a conversational
UI right basically you have like chat GPT or basically Gemini etc you have an input field where you basically write a prompt
and then you just see text appearing so yes it's no need to have complicated uis anymore it's no
need to have complicated forms endlessly onboarding flows or so many pages and settings that you don't
even know where to find go and where to basically the learning curve of certain platforms is not necessary anymore.
So yes, I mean, large English models will become part of every single UI, every single
application eventually, it's just a matter of time.
Thanks, Mark.
Okay. Who else has something to say?
Okay.
Okay.
I think we're moving to our next question.
What three AI evolution in the next five to ten years?
Will blockchain and AI co-evolve you know fast enough to stay relevant
or will centralized systems pull too far ahead what do you think
do we have our speakers here yeah i can take this one okay uh so this is really interesting because five to 10 years in our space is like a century in any other industry.
But by then, AI and blockchain would be a standalone technology.
I think they'll be a joint backbone of how all logic and intelligence move across the whole web.
the whole web.
It might look today like centralized AI is winning
and faster releases are more powerful models,
billions in compute.
But if we zoom out a little bit to a five to 10 years lens,
maybe a different picture starts to emerge.
Because eventually power alone won't be enough, right?
So now it's all relying on power,
and centralized AI looks really unstoppable.
They have huge models, massive budgets, and global reach.
But if we fast track it, I think it's going to all connect.
So people will want to know where is this decision coming from,
what data shaped what, can I trust it, can I not trust it,
because we have a lot of misinformation at the moment,
and this needs to change.
So that's when centralized AI might hit a wall,
because those systems currently are built for control,
not more of a transparency thing.
And you can see this in some leaks that took place
in the system fronts of Gemini for example right it's it was put in a place to control to actually
protect Google fully or protect certain countries fully so it's shaping that the answers.
Blockchain on the other hand was designed for transparency fully and that's the whole
beauty about it so it might be slow today sure, but it's catching up really fast and
more importantly, I think it's evolving in a way centralized, simple, can't just catch up with this.
And if I want to mirror it at Vayner, for example, we're not just focused on matching big AI in scale,
we're building something a little different, a system where intelligence is explainable, is aligned,
is built on trust, and is understandable by normies.
So we're building infrastructure that
helps AI understand human behavior,
not through just data collections,
but through meaningful public signals.
Everything should be traceable.
The outcomes are fair and mistakes don't get buried like they happen now in centralized spaces.
So think about it.
In 10 years, we might have AI helping allocate,
I don't know, climate funds, right?
Or making decisions in proper healthcare systems.
At that point, you can't afford to say
just trust us you have to have a trustworthy infrastructure especially with ai doing a lot
of mistakes now so it has to follow the full skeleton of thought and people need to get to
the bottom of it without getting misled so you this proof, you need systems where everyone can see this logic and the process,
and that's where blockchain will step in.
So not to compete with centralized AI,
but I think it's more to give intelligence,
a moral compass, and some ethics in place,
a sense of memory.
I don't know, and a place to grow maybe
without losing the trust of the people it's
meant to serve, right? Because even now in the internet space, for example, everybody
is sick of bots and AI just managing whole social stuff. And this needs to change. And
I think blockchain will be the main engine for this.
Well said, George.
Thanks, George.
Okay, so does anybody else have anything to add to that?
Yeah, I can go next, I think, because I mean, I i'm gonna try to answer this in a very brief way
like will blockchain and ai go if all fast enough to stay relevant i like i'm gonna tell you
blockchain and ai will make everything relevant
basically blockchain will give you the ownership over your data first first of all, will give you the transparency and there will be incentivization so you can participate
and actually gain more benefits from your data, first of all.
And you need to have that never-ending, I mean, like infinite ownership
over your data, basically, to make things relevant
because everything where you go online basically you
should get things personalized and hyper relevant um as how you want it so we we talk about
personalization at this moment and like if you go i like i'm going to be very honest about i haven't
seen real personalization yet there's very good um initiatives that come very close, right? If you go, for example, on social media,
pre-filling basically content with what we have done in the past,
basically behavioral patterns, right?
But there's still a lot of content in there
that actually I personally don't want to see.
So how I see the future with blockchain and AI
is that you go online any place.
If you go from Netflix basically to an e-commerce store,
everything will be populated, will be hyper-personalized, hyper-relevant,
because of that combination.
AI is needed to speed that up, to make it a lot smarter, basically.
We need the brainpower to kind of understand how things should be personalized
and made hyper-relevant.
Advertisements, for example.
Not a good example.
So yes, they will be enormously relevant in the next five to ten years.
Awesome.
Okay.
Do we have anyone else that wants to say something?
Yeah, I think I...
I would say that
yes, both were evolving. They might not necessarily
co-evolve, though. I think essentially
they are inherently pulling in opposite directions.
So AI is kind of procedurally generated hyperabundance
and blockchain is procedurally generated scarcity.
So they won't necessarily grow together,
but I think they have every potential to be perfectly complementary.
So I think there is a risk of trying to push too hard on in cases where maybe AI is not necessarily
hyper-adapted for that. Obviously, if you want to trade very quickly, then AI is not
really very well adapted for that, the sort of the second, you know, one second, half
second latency and so on. But for other stuff, like analyzing contracts
to see which contracts are safe to interact with,
that is a very obvious use case.
And I feel like it's an underserved use case.
Some of it has been done,
but I guess probably the people who own the apps
are kind of a bit wary about the AI
accidentally saying something is safe when it isn't or whatever.
But I feel like they could still get around with that with disclaimers.
And in a lot of cases, it just hasn't been done.
Like AppSafe, the old Gnosis Multisig, they just had a security compromise incident with, I think it was Bybitz, one of Bybitz wallets
got hacked. And now they make you tick sort of a thousand boxes before signing any transaction
just to say, I know what I'm signing, this has consequences, so help me God, all the
rest of it. And it would be really nice there if we just had a little AI interpretation
of what the transaction is. You are sending x dollars to this guy do you actually want to proceed uh and that that hasn't
been integrated yet and it would be it'd be so nice if we had it so yeah I think there is plenty
of potential for um AI and blockchain to to work together but not necessarily in the idea in the
areas that people have been seeing the most alpha in
and trying to exploit in the immediate term, I guess.
Yeah, thanks. Fantastic point, everyone.
So we've actually covered all the topics, and I'll be opening up the floor for our panelists
to share a quick rundown of, you know, your project development update, basically what you've been up to right on your side.
Before jumping there, I just want to cover a little bit on the question regarding the standardization of systems for the agents because I'm a little bit not aligned with the other answers.
I think absolutely there's a need for standard systems among the agents.
And it's important to think of them as actually enablers, not constraints.
So I'm going to give you a couple of examples.
Imagine a language without grammar.
Everybody would be just dropping words.
Nobody's going to understand anything.
We can't communicate effectively. But once we have it, everyone can be creative in poetry and,
I don't know, movies, stories, and they still come up with stuff like this.
And another example is 20 years ago or 30 years ago, without the, for example, TCP IP,
there were no share. It's the shared protocol that unlocks innovations.
They didn't kill creativity, actually. It fueled it.
So if in the AI agent, if every team now builds their own logic,
imagine now, for example, with every logic on the example of TCP IP,
every website needs their own browser.
Websites need their own browser.
We'll end up with a massive chaos.
We'll end up with a massive just chaos.
So if every team builds their own logic, memory, and interface,
these systems eventually won't be able to talk to each other
or share any knowledge or collaborate.
So this will actually stop expansion, stop...
It will defy everything we're trying to do.
We'll just rebuild the same infrastructure over and over.
That's not innovation, actually.
That's fragmentation, I think.
On the other hand, if you imagine agents from different teams
could share context or hand off tasks to each other
or even, I don't know, negotiate these
or your agent is going to do the full negotiations
for your rental contract
or whatever it is.
That's only possible with shared frameworks
or at least agreed upon some data standards, right?
So, yeah, I think creativity will always be in the unique ways
we design agents, their personality, maybe their goals,
how we clone them to be us. But the foundation
they run on, I think that they should all speak the same language and share the same
standard systems.
I appreciate your input, George. Okay. And we had the last session now I was
asking
Everyone everyone of our speakers to share what's been happening on their project. It was latest development just a brief rundown of the latest
If you can
Yeah, I can go first so
I've been I've been co-developing basically the whole data pipeline behind Inflective, which is all about solving data problems, as I mentioned before, making data much higher quality structure and AI optimized, which is currently one messy data. We basically have a whole pipeline to develop with Google.
So that has been happening behind the scenes.
And where we're at now, we're launching an alpha in the upcoming weeks.
So I just want to ask all of you, keep your eyes open.
Click on my account here and follow me.
follow me, make sure you follow Inflective because it's going to be very,
Make sure you follow Inflective because it's going to be very, very interesting things coming up.
very interesting things coming up.
We're launching an alpha where you as a user can sign up and create data sets
that you own. And later on,
you can do a lot of very interesting things with those data sets and they are
optimized for AI agents. So we're launching,
things are going to go very, very fast from here on. So be early, I'd say.
Thanks Matt. Who else? to go very very fast from here on so be early i'd say
thanks matt um boils yeah oh i'll jump in um so i i already did a bit of chilling at the beginning but i'm more than happy to do some more
um yeah so as i mentioned before superior agents
are the hopefully the first step to artificial superintelligence.
Agents that actually learn, experiment, self-improve, check their results, and learn again.
They are online. You can follow them on Twitter at superior underscore agents, or just follow me, and I'm posting on there all the time.
And they are actually in a sort of semi-open beta state at the moment.
So if you want to create your own, you can message me,
and I'll send you an access code, and you can get online
and create your own little trading tabagogy.
Thank you, Jen. Okay, so I guess we're done. If you have something to say, Vanar, you can go ahead.
Yeah, sure. So I gave a small brief at the beginning, but I can touch base on them again.
So we are an infrastructure intelligence trail. This is where we're heading.
We're going to be massively focusing on supporting PayFi, RWA, and actually AI infrastructure fully. So this is the main umbrellas,
and we're trying to really have intelligent infrastructure
or not like AIs on infrastructure.
And we're trying to get to mainstream,
have institutional use for actual blockchain,
even if it's in private mode,
but that's where we're going.
All right, great. Thanks everyone for joining. We've come to the end of the session.
Shout out to our amazing builders, Inflective and our KIP. Even nocturr couldn't join us today i still appreciate
all of you turning up today for the uh the space uh really value all your insights in your time so
everyone else do give them a follow on x if you can and enjoy the rest of the day and
your weekend touch some grass have fun with family and until next time bye everyone thank
you so much enjoy the weekend everyone thanks a lot bye thanks bye bye bye
okay Thank you.
Host
Self Chain
from
Self Chain
