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The Stacks DeFi Show #28
Recorded: Aug. 6, 2024 Duration: 0:58:58Space Recording
Full Transcription
Are you there as well?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're here.
We're here.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah.
All here.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
Great.
Then, yeah, I guess then let's dive into it.
Unless this is Philip's connection.
Let's see, Philip.
Let's see.
Let's see if everything right over there.
Let's see if everything right over there.
I think it's here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, here I'm going to run.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
hey philip can you hear us hey hey gmgm can you hear me we can we can all right apologies
there's a twitter space stuff always the same you want to hear a good song or shall we get started
right away i did a super short introduction already and uh just testing audio and waiting
for you to uh to get here but um yeah i guess now that we're complete i mean obviously one
note of housekeeping uh you know anything that we cover is not not financial advice and
information purposes only but um but yeah i guess uh we should we should probably uh dive dive right
in so um feel free to take it away philip awesome yeah for those who don't know me
i'm a co-founder and core contributor at arcadeco and stacking dow i'm pretty sure you all know
what those protocols do but for those who don't uh stacking now is the first liquid staking token
on stacks and still the leading one you have around 60 million stacks in tvl and arcadeco is a crypto
backed stable coin um usda on on stacks we were actually the first tefi protocol to launch and
we're uh we're still operational doing pretty well so check it out um either protocols if you have
some idle stacks and i think that's also an interesting topic to dive right in but if you
have some idle stacks and you want to earn some yields on those um yeah stack them with stacking
dow we can delegate across some of the awesome signers that we have here today like um restake
like infstones um we have about 10 of them live today i believe so um yeah super excited to um
to have you all uh here today and um i don't know if the guests already did a quick intro but if not
um i'll let infstones kick it off and um yeah let's get it going
yeah hi everyone my name is sali um i've been at infstones for six years now
uh oh my job at infstones is uh uh director for business development uh you know global market
and then philip thanks for that uh i'm not hearing anything i'm not sure if you're hearing
something philip oh uh can you guys hear me yeah i do hear uh the infstones people
oh um should we wait for the uh technical issue to get solved or we can continue going
um in my opinion can get going i mean unless the audience doesn't hear you uh maybe if if the
audience wants to do a thumbs up i see some thumbs up keep it going if you can hear m stones please
give it a thumbs up all right i see a couple thumbs up okay and uh let's get going then so yeah philip i
think that's a quite a moderate saying that stacking down still going uh so yeah i think you guys are
doing strong uh in the in the network we see that you have 10 operators including us right now and uh
the tbl is keeps growing for the past couple cycles as far as we can see so yeah like philip said if you
guys have some uh you know idle stacks feel free to check them out i believe stacking dow has some um
educational pieces on their medium as well if you want to learn what is stacks what a stacking
dow does and what stacks does and the the newest uh you know upgrade to the network feel free to
check them out and of course as one of operator for stacking dow if you delegate a stacking dow
uh there's a chance that your that goes to us as well so uh we are very we'll be very happy to help
uh help out in the community as well so um uh so why we are one of the operators for stacking down
and why we are in the stacks is that infstones is one of the you know infrastructure
providers in the ecosystem we have been here for over six years now seeing a couple uh you know
crypto cycles come and goes um through the past six years we have been working with over 100 different
protocols uh in the ecosystem of course some are proven stronger in the space so right now we are
actively working on over 80 different protocols so if you need infrastructure on any of those chains
quickly to check out our uh you know website and reach out to us
but thank you uh just for my side
i can go next philip if that's okay just what i say first of all i absolutely i absolutely love this space
okay um never a dull day in the markets or in crypto it's absolutely last time we talked
um stacks was up 12 15 on the day but that was after a correction and now it's the exact same story
so yesterday we had the the liquidations etc so i don't know if that's a that's a pattern that i'm
seeing or uh or maybe just a coincidence but we know the coincidence is are not real anyway uh so
myself i'm davide i'm the head of strategy of re-stake and i spent the last decade in a strategy
management consulting so i was one of those suits right i was traveling across europe and asia pacific
working with a c-suite of very large financial institutions defining a tech strategy and then leading
the teams to implement this strategy so i was uh located in australia new zealand ireland illy so
i've traveled a fair bit um but over the past few years i've been working behind the scenes with the
founders of our private equity group so in case you didn't know re-stake is part of a private equity
group that is based out of geneva we have a few businesses as part of the private equity group but
the the web free businesses are one of the largest bitcoin miners in europe and us so we cover both
mining and staking and in terms of uh re-stake now we have literally just published a a thread on our
twitter page uh on our x page i should say so if you're curious to learn more about re-stake please head
over to our page and check us out um but what's not said in that thread is that we are rebranding so
expect uh some good news now over the coming months uh we're changing names we're changing
flavor we're changing branding we're doing uh a refresher and we're very excited about that
and uh yeah i mean uh uh back to you phil of taiko yeah awesome thanks both of you guys for uh for the
intro um if there's some technical difficulties i might take over sometimes taiko might take over
it's it's been a bit of a special day but um one of us will will be here and again thank thanks for
having you on and so um you spoke a little bit yeah already about the signers um was there a specific
reason why and then this is this question is for really both of you was there a specific reason why you
decided to join stacks specifically as a network what what stood out for you guys and yeah how do
you see that in comparison to something like ethereum ecosystem or the solana ecosystem um yeah why stacks
beamstones do you want to go first i'm happy to go second oh yeah sure sure so yeah thanks for for
this opportunity and um yeah so why is that that's a great question um so a little bit more background
about instance is that we we started back in 2018 so um our founders were uh the original i guess
participants in bitcoin mining as well so they were always has a filler out for the bitcoin ecosystem so
when we first seen stacks popping up on our radar we feel like this is something that's definitely going
to grow and definitely gonna be here to stay just like uh bitcoin so that's one of the first reason
we uh started you know sort of researching stacks and started to see if there's anything we could do
for stacks and of course we started to running our uh stacking pool for for stacks a couple years back
and started helping our clients to get involved in this ecosystem as well and i'm happy to report that
all of our regional participating in the pool are still in the ecosystem proving that they have
confidence in the ecosystem as well and those clients are institutions and uh you know fast forward
to 2024 now with the new upgrades uh it had proven that as a as a you know signer and operator ourselves
we can have more involvement in the ecosystem we have more say in the ecosystem and uh more engagement
in the ecosystem and um you know as a signer we can participate in governance and we can do this
uh more interactively with our clients as well uh you know informing them hey here's a here's a you know
new proposals coming out uh what it does and what we think we want to do and see if they're okay with
this then uh we can even you know participate in governance on behalf of those institutional uh you
you know you masters where they probably won't be able to participate in voting before just because
their their asset needs to be stayed in the uh you know code storage so i think that's why we a lot
of the reason why we you know first participate in stacks and why we are staying in the ecosystems that
we want to grow with a healthy ecosystem uh like we said we've been uh just like all of us we've been
seeing a couple cycles we've seen particles come and goes but we've seen stacks and particles growing
ever since we saw the first approach in this ecosystem so we have our most confidence in the
ecosystem and uh that's why we you know want to keep going in this ecosystem
so yeah uh does that really pass back to you very good very good um so my reasons i'm gonna take
it back to first principles the first one which actually resonates very well uh with my co-speaker
here is that we don't know which chains are going to be around in uh 20 30 years time but we know
that bitcoin is going to be around right uh bitcoin is a one trillion dollar asset worth of energy
someone would say uh that is that is always going to be around uh for our generation next generation
and probably for the next 100 generations in my mind so if you want to bet on a horse uh you're
going to be betting on the horse that is going to win the race in the long term and not just the
sprint so that's the first point in my mind the second point is that our incentives and our mission
is aligned we want bitcoin to succeed uh part of our business i would say a good chunk of our business
is mining bitcoin and uh the more uh bitcoin appreciates uh the better it is for us but it's
better for everyone because these everyone's hopes and dreams and uh and the more transactions we manage
to process on chain the more fees etc so at the end of the day a network is worth what their users think
it's worth and uh if you if you add utility to a network if you add apps and apps and if you add
services the more people are going to use it and it's very possible that the users that we have now
on other l1s or l2s that are there because of smart contracts because of instant finality because of low
transaction fees are going to be going to stacks it's just a matter of time in my mind so we want to be
that we want to support the best projects on stocks and we want the protocol to succeed and then the
last point uh is because the the stacking down team is the second most handsome team in wet free
you know we we have risk take obviously taking the crown but tiger is a very good dude and a very
handsome dude himself philip not so much but uh he's getting there you know i'm joking but uh you know
honestly guys um bitcoin is the place to be because it's going to be around for the next
2000 years you can't say the same about other chains and our incentives are aligned and the team is
amazing uh which is probably one of the most important things i did get a haircut man to please
you you told me get a haircut and you'll be among the most handsome ones i i don't get it
who knows what's next shave my beers or something i don't know anyway uh very interesting very good
um i appreciate both well elaborate answers i could not hear silly speak unfortunately but um
um psycho um he did and uh i did hear you daphne so that's it um and so yeah very interesting and
you did speak a bit about bitcoin and stacks obviously there's like other bitcoin layer twos
are you looking at that at all or is it just like stacks focused uh that you currently are daphne or
history stake also operational and other bitcoin we are we are we really like the bitcoin space
so we're supporting uh various other protocols but i don't believe that it's uh one takes all you
know i believe in growing the pie and then uh having uh bigger chunks of the pie you know all together
so bigger slices if you will and uh and that's why we're supporting many other protocols we're also
supporting restaking protocols we're making investments in this space as well and um we're very
very excited because as i said you know it's no winner takes all and uh and if anything if you were
to think about it it would be the bitcoin ecosystem versus others you know if you really wanted to put
it put it down into a competition mode but it's not and um so yeah we're supporting bounce bear we are
live on bounce bear we're talking with uh well we're in testing of babylon newbit we're investing in
newbit which is a data availability layer first native data availability layer very excited about that
um and we've got many other partnerships now in the pipeline that uh i'd be happy to share in new
time but yeah absolutely very cool and um well i know this is a stack stefi show um but as with
anything i think in the ecosystem it's pretty important to understand the whole landscape
and so we don't only or i rather don't only like enjoy talking about stacks you did mention bounce
bit can you just like elaborate a little bit on what it is and how it works and what you think the
value add of bounce bit specifically is because you mentioned your life on there and i did see the name
pass a few times uh a couple of months ago i have to say i believe when they when they launched but i
haven't seen it around lately yeah so can you elaborate yeah it's let's say staking luxury staking
platform uh it combines c5 and d5 um so basically you take your bitcoin you get a proxy you stake it uh
so that's basically in the nuts of it uh and um we've been live now for i'd say a couple of months
now it's been backed by binance labs and and a few others um so it's a strong team ok x ventures etc i
think they're based out in uh in the east um so i i don't think it strictly competes with um with
stocks at all actually i think there is some crossovers i think you can use the the the bitcoin
or stocks or some derivatives of it like sbtc and then use it on on bounce bit and if not just now
it will in the future uh be something that is enabled and so i'm still a little bit confused um
i don't know how much you specifically know about bounce bounce bit but what what why would i why would
i use it as as an end user so i have btc could you walk me through like a journey and how restate can
help with that journey um i have btc i want to use bounce bit what what's the first thing i do and what
what will i end up with yeah you deposit you deposit btc from bnb or ethereum uh you get a proxy for that
and then you you stake it and uh that's where we help with bounce bit we run validator nodes for bounce
bit so the the stake bitcoin is going to be used uh to generate a yield and then the yield goes back to
the stakers uh so there is a bridge now you can reach from ethereum bnb all the way to bounce bit
but you know honestly mate like uh we can explore this a little bit deeper if you want
no that that helps so i wasn't even aware that it's um it's hooked into bnb and ethereum ecosystem and i
hope that helps for some people listening as well so that that explains a lot in my head already and
yeah cool that's uh that's interesting the thing is that i'm trying to discover in in most of those
uh conversations that we have is how bitcoin native is it what does it rely on in terms of
counterparty risk or just generally smart contact risk and it seems like you need some kind of bitcoin
assets on ethereum or or bnb um so is it rabbit bitcoin or or what it's not the native bitcoin no you can't
stake the native bitcoins right we we have to wait for for babylon and other projects now they're
building on top of it uh using a wallet like the wallet for example um so no it's it's a it's a
derivative as i said you know it's a proxy there is counterparty risk obviously uh and it's at both
c5 and d5 so it combines both both aspects of the equation here so there is always a counterparty risk
um price risk and then uh if if a bridge is involved then uh you need to be able to secure
that bridge uh and that's why you know we have restaking protocols in place as well so i don't
know if you're familiar with the with your restaking space but uh we can chat about that as well
yeah not too much and i'd love to dive dive deep into that actually um maybe we'll do that next um
i'll go over to silly from from imp stones maybe with the same question are you guys um you know
active in other bitcoin layer twos or how do you see that do you differ from restaking that are you
stacks only um yeah what's the deal with you guys yeah uh thanks for the question so uh definitely just
want to make sure that you guys can hear me right so philip has a little bit issues so maybe i need your
help to relay my my message once i'm done with philip so he he knows that i'm i'm done talking um
yeah so imp stones um we are also active in other uh btc projects as well for for instance bounce
bit we're one of the uh validators on bounce bits and we're also working on babylon uh test nets
and uh as well as another protocol called cordow so cordow is also another uh bitcoin uh projects that
they offer staking and staking yields for bitcoin um for cordow it's a little bit different uh from
bounce bit uh there's no bridges on cordow basically it's a time locking your btc on on
on bitcoin and then delegate those time locked btc to one of the cordow validators so in order
you generate some yields uh for your btc now i realize that's a little bit different from bounce bit
and uh also very different from babylon so i'm very curious to see how different mechanisms are
going to be favored by the ecosystem but uh the gist of it is that if you have idle btc right now you
want to stake there's more opportunities for for everyone out there to uh explore and i would uh
you know encourage people just if you want to get more bitcoin of course stacking dow stacks is
one of the the best protocol out there you can uh you can just get your failures out and get
involved in this ecosystem uh unless you're a miner i think that's probably the best way for you to get
some hands on the bitcoin other than just buy it outright from uh from the market so yeah um we were
very heavily on proof of stake uh networks uh since 2018 i think stacks is probably one of the first
that we start to participate in the uh bitcoin ecosystem and now we're involved with with stacking
dow uh our vision is that for 2024 2025 just like it definitely said you know bitcoin is not going
anywhere it's a blockchain for the next two thousand three thousand years i think we will definitely start
to uh getting more involved in the bitcoin ecosystem you know if we see more protocols out there you know
getting getting into the ecosystem then we'll probably talk to them and see how we can help and from our
perspective uh we have been seeing uh more uh liquid restaking even or liquid staking protocol trying to
get into this space and um yeah i think in 2024 towards the end of 2024 we'll see more participants out
there but right now if we want to get you know the stacks liquidity restaking uh stacking down is out
there if we want to get more bitcoin stacks is out there so check out their contents and uh if you are
interested talk to me talk to definitely i think um it's exciting space and all or the most stable space
i would say uh in 2024 if you want to get into the space all right uh that's my part so definitely if you
can help relay no it's very interesting very interesting that um i think i think um david
i could could probably hear that all fine just checking if philip if you heard that but but i
guess one question that i also have okay philip is hearing everything we're complete guys we're in sync
one half an hour in but you know that's that's the great things um yeah i guess one thing i was kind
of curious about like as you guys were talking right like um i guess you're sort of technically
also kind of competing over stake right uh or like sort of competitors in some way and yeah i'm just
kind of curious like what how you think you know you sort of differentiate yourself in this kind of
staking market right is it like you sort of you know we've talked a lot about bitcoin projects and
staking on you know big like you know stacks bitcoin l2s so on and so forth um and of course
restaking adds like you know a big thing to to the game but um but yeah just kind of curious how you
how you think about differentiating and and and you know how that kind of works in this this competitive
landscape maybe davide i should ask you first because yeah of course the consultant so you will
you will know exactly how to answer this question yeah but then it goes back to something that i said
before you know um i i i don't believe in uh splitting the pie into multiple parts or like in
smaller chunks you know i believe in growing the pie together and um let me say this there is a reason
why staking is that is using nine to ten signers now i think it's nine from memory right uh and the
reason is that you can't just only use one if you if you were only using one then if the service of the
of this provider go down then the whole network goes down right and uh and that's a risk that you
simply cannot afford to take right so then you need to find the best signers in the space that are
willing to run these machines on bare metal whatever the the the specs are um and monitor these machines
24 7 choose the best providers and really provide the institutional grade security uh of the service so
there's i i think it's fairly rare that there is a blockchain or a liquid stake you know a liquid
restaking provider that only uses one validator one side as a matter of fact you know i've been
speaking to many other providers uh in the past couple of weeks and um we don't we i don't necessarily
see them as competitors because everyone's got their niche like our niche is bitcoin uh because of
obviously our sister company right the miners so we like bitcoin we want to support bitcoin we want it
to succeed and that's where we focus our efforts but obviously you know we we have other chains as
well and then it depends on the in the company we're speaking to you know we have uh within restate there
we have a lot of engineers some of them uh like like solana some of them like near some of them like
um you know many different chains but then again you know like it's i know become maxi i don't i don't
think it's a healthy thing and i think there is space for everyone you know let's focus on building
stuff that actually makes sense uh so that we can grow the party i like that answer and um
well the way i see it and i think it's similar to how you see it daphne but maybe a little bit
different as you're both colleagues and competitors i mean ultimately stay can only go to one signer or
one validator and i think specifically interesting so i do own some sol and obviously i stake that solana
that's all and there's one website specifically in the solana ecosystem that i do like and that i do
follow up on and i do try to obviously i care about the uptime and the commission that a validator
takes and all those things but i do try to stack stake i should say not stack i do try to stake with
smaller validators and validators that i actually like so i do think there's definitely a marketing
angle and so there's this website solana beach.io if you want to check it out solana beach.io
slash validators and if you scroll there you see all the validators listed by their stake and so in
solana if you take the top 20 the top 20 actually currently form actually top 19 they form what's
called a super minority so they potentially have a lot um enough stake if they corroborate to take over
the network for things so that's like i don't know how exactly i'm not too technical on that and solana
but there's a threat of a halt if you take those top 19 altogether their stake and so for me as both
an enjoyer of crypto and of solana and of stacks and all those things i do care about supporting
several validators and so i split actually my stack among validators that i like and that's also why
by the way we run 10 10 external signers um right now on stacking now 11 if you count ourselves um
and i do think it's important to to to spread that out and to make sure that the the network remains
healthy um and ideally in stacks we won't have the top 19 that is a super minority but maybe the top
50 or whatever you know as soon as we have over 50 or over 100 signers online for me that's really
important so uh just wanted to add that um but that's really interesting for me to look at more
mature ecosystems like ethereum like salon to see how the stake evolved there and and take some lessons
from there so i just wanted to add that very good we have uh 23 000 solana the stake to our validators
those are our solana so phil uh message me if you want a discount or some rebates on the fees you
i'm more than happy to help you out on that sounds good i'll be in touch um so yeah um that's it um
for me on on the solana thing um you so one thing one other thing actually that i picked up from silly
on on instones is if you if you want to use stacking dow to to get you know rewards one thing that i wanted
to add is um we do pay out in stx the protocol pays out in stx rewards so there's a pretty good
reason for that and leor who is um our head of growth he's he's also in the call here in the show
i believe give him a follow he's a really good follow on data on analytics and all those things
he did write a report comparing uh stacks if you don't stack it um if you stack it in a pool and if you
stack it with stacking dow and and the results with stacking dow they're just overwhelming good
because we do auto compound all that yield and we do pay out in stx and over time especially in
bull markets stx tends to outperform now financial advice as i always have to say but it does tend to
outperform btc um so yeah that's that's a pretty significant reason i think to stack with stacking
dow and the more stacks and flow we get the more we can delegate to to people like our institutions
like re-stake and and imp stones so yeah just wanted to add that there um found that was pretty
important um but yeah so daphne one more thing you talked a little bit about re-staking um what do you
think generally speaking about re-staking how do you see the space evolve and how do you think it
could add value for stacks uh re-staking so you know when i speak to my engineers about this um
i'm actually just chatting now with a with a re-staking protocol on on telegram um i it's hard to
start on this topic right because we we don't necessarily have native staking just yet so the
re-staking that is going to happen is going to be on derivatives or you know proxies basically of
bitcoin native uh so once you once you start staking your because let's say for example that um you
you bridge bitcoin to another chain and then you get derivative let's say sbtc tbtc i don't know you
finish the alphabet right uh with all of these uh uh sd consonants before btc but let's say that you
get this proxy and then you stake it again to provide security to other chains or um or bridges
or uh up chains so basically to other players that um do not have the um this the staking ratio do not
have the market cap necessary to secure uh their operations so let's say for example that uh you are a
chain and uh you're a new chain like it could be a cosmos chain for example and your market car is
you're very new like you you literally just built a chain to run it up right and uh and that's a common
example because the reason why you would do that is because if you have only one up on this chain that
you're in control of the fees and you're in control of the volume that is being processed through this
chain okay uh and that's why this this type of chains exist and um however because your your your
dap is not used by many people and it's just growing and you just uh founded it well the market cap
might not be in the hundreds of millions okay let's say that it's uh it's a very small chain actually
let's say that it's uh 50 million hundred million whatever that is right so then how do you secure it
because well obviously you're gonna have staking so you're gonna have your own native staking with
your native token whatever that's gonna be uh but if you start attracting capital let's say that you
build a money market like the equivalent of zest for example on this new chain and it surpasses a
certain tvl well now you need to protect the chain from external attacks so how do you do that well you do
that for staking but if staking is not enough because your market cap of the chain is close to
the tvl that you have on this money market then you need to borrow security from other assets so here's
what could happen uh again it's an edge example but it's it's to explain the concept right and please
cut me off if i'm going off of a tangent here uh let's say that you you're building a new chain this
chain is for simplicity 100 million market cap okay and you have a you have a money market whose
market cap is again probably not gonna happen but it's an example uh that has 200 millions in tvl
now let's say the staking the staking ratio is 100 because again but it's never gonna happen but then
again it's an example so you're basically staking 100 of the native tokens so you're staking in dollar
terms you're staking 100 million dollars because the chain is worth 100 million dollars so everyone
is taking so now the the the staking ratio is 100 so again 100 million dollars now if i were an external
actor right and i would try to um take over the blockchain in the sense that i could put in malicious
transactions etc then i will need to accrue at least 51 of the staking power let's say right so staking is
100 millions now so i basically just need to buy up half the supply 51 and then take over the blockchain
right uh then anatoly says that this thing is not even possible etc but it's a long story there is a
good bankless episode about this actually um okay so in that case i basically just need to spend 50
million to gain access to the tvl of the money market so by spending 50 million i have access to 200
million in tvl you know from the money market so i could technically play around with that you know
okay well then what what is the what is something that these chains can do you know uh they can go
ahead and borrow security from other chains and from other assets so they go to the likes of babylon or
they go to the likes of uh restating protocols in case babylon is not compatible etc and they borrow
security let's say that they borrow 200 millions in assets right so now whoever wants to take over the
blockchain needs to get half of 200 million that you're borrowing plus 100 million that you were
already staking so you need to get a hold of 150 million and you can scale this let's say that you
borrow 500 million right so then you basically get to a point where the attacker it makes no sense from an
economic standpoint to try and attack a blockchain because it's secured by much more assets than the
assets that you'll be able to to take over and that's the whole concept behind risk taking right so
that's the use case uh and i believe uh that it's an experiment uh but i believe that there is a real
use case um so then translate that to bridges for example translate that to to smaller apps uh and chains
you know that that's where the value is you know i i've spoken too much but i i i was trying to make
it clear because people talk a lot sometimes and it's not clear no no this is super helpful actually
that's a really good primer into restaking and i um i get it it's just it's very abstract if like before
even before you told me it was like very abstract to just like understand why people would need it or why
we would use it and i think your explanation really helped so uh thank you one analogy that's also
nice about restaking that i heard the guy from babylon mention is um think about it like securing um
uh yeah securing like uh a network or a bank or something like that um right now you can only do it
with equity right like with the native token of the network and then you can do it with debt as well right
you can essentially borrow security from elsewhere to uh yeah to sort of secure whatever the network is
just like that like that analogy a lot
yeah cool makes sense yeah thanks for that i do by the way on the i think the bankless episode i did
watch it on the whole um economic security debate it's um actually an ethereum core contributor i forgot his
name for saying yeah yeah he's debating totally from well co-founder of solana um and then it totally
goes like well economic security is a meme and i do agree with that to some extent because
it doesn't well at what point do you make the cut off almost between like it's 100 billion dollars
enough or it's 50 billion dollars enough or you know that that's how i just from a very naive point of
you think about it in my head because there's a social construct that if you if you violate certain
terms you will get slashed and so chihuahua chain or whatever can have the same economic security as
ethereum or solana um is this point he goes like really deep into it um if you're interested in those
types of things definitely check out that episode because it is interesting you do have to be very you know
like into it and watching it because it's quite technical i think um but yeah um maybe back on topic
um silly from instones um are you guys also like looking at the whole restaking um ecosystem or is this
not of interest or strategic interest or what whatever else interests for you at this moment or how do you
see uh the restaking landscape evolve yeah uh i think you all have covered the technical part and why
you know restaking is needed in this ecosystem so as an infrastructure provider yes uh just quickly
answer your question yes we are very active in the restaking space as as an operator as an operator
so i think um one of the things uh that you all mentioned
and are very accurate i think we we believe the same concept as well is that people can borrow
security uh or project can borrow security and that can help them quickly secure their projects
and from infrastructure point of view uh what we have seen over the past six seven years is that
when a new project is trying to launch they have to secure their own you know validator sets they have
the organized test that's that they organize you know 100 parties and maybe throw them through
evaluate them and finally peak 40 50 to participate in their mainnet that's a very involved and intensive
process now with staking uh those projects can just think like a definite uh the tackle and philipica said
um they can borrow security right they can they can have the same security as ethereum as solana
while not having to spend you know 20 30 percent of the budget they just run a test and and
according with 100 parties so um we are supporting uh you know restaking and just because we see that
from infrastructure perspective people will have that need uh so right now we're active in eigenlayer we
have our own uh you know operate on eigenlayer one of the most delegate to operator i believe in terms
of delegators on eigenlayer and we also running eigenlayers for our partners as well and um right now of
course symbiotics coming out on ethereum and uh they they support erc20 tokens and we are actively in
the symbiotic space as well and uh of course we are uh keep evaluating and we've heard that there might
be restaking uh more restaking protocols coming out for bitcoin some of our partners are planning on this
we are working behind the scenes with them so i think towards the end of 2024 uh we might see more
uh you know protocols and ideas coming out and we'll be very actively engaged in in this ecosystem
so yeah philip that that's a long way to answer your question but yeah uh just to make it sure yes we
are very active in this no awesome it's always interesting to hear hear that um because again restaking
is still quite abstract for me and i think for people in general if we keep building infra and
that infrastructure doesn't get better with like real life well useful apps i don't know how how much
it resonates you know with people the whole restaking story and honestly generally the the whole
infra story we built so much infra and um so few apps still um after 10 15 years but that's a whole
other story thanks for elaborating on that boat um i do want to go into to another angle a little bit
because signers they do have been introduced right with the nakamoto upgrade on stacks is there anything
specific that makes you really excited about the nakamoto activation which is coming up around the 28th
of august by the way so we're less than a month away um how you guys are feeling about that how uh yeah
anything specific that's exciting uh from my perspective phil uh the nakamoto upgrade is going to
it's going to improve the blockchain uh itself right and uh by improving the blockchain itself
it's going to become more useful to the users and the more useful the blockchain it is the faster it is
instant finality which is one of the features of the nakamoto upgrade um you know faster blocks etc
and the more useful it gets the more it's going to get used and the more it gets used the more
dabs are going to be built on top of it and the more dabs are going to be built on top of it the more
the the network grows and maccalf's laws you know says that the more the network grows the more the market
cap should be so it all comes down to the user experience the easier it is for users the cheaper
it is the the faster release people are drawn to that you know and we have seen that with solana
the solana that you want to stake to the risk take note by the way we've seen that before and
uh and uh i'm very excited about this to be honest because um because i think you know the price will
follow and uh with price there is excitement there is hype there is more users there is free publicity
and uh more transactions and uh and becoming a cruising value that's my take on it
yeah i think um probably building on top of what definitely just uh you know shared uh we are
hoping to see more engagement on in this whole ecosystem so um more transactions more transaction
fees and also uh as an operator ourselves we are just excited to see that we are now able to participate
in in in governance as you know non-custodial service providers uh we are operating signers and we have
a more engaging role in the ecosystem now uh we have been you know first engaged with stacks team years
back now in 2024 we are picking up more conversation with the team just because of this upgrade and we
are really happy to see that happen and uh you know more involvement as a infrastructure service provider
rather than uh just involved as a token holder so um also like definitely said we have faster blocks
so we are moving away from the 10 minute intervals to uh to potential seconds uh in finality um so
this upgrade i think is a a leap forward for the protocol if i if i could say that and i'm excited to see
what would happen in 2024 and um also decide excited to see more apps building on top
of stacks and also you know working more with the stacking dow team to see how we can grow this
ecosystem together
yeah awesome yeah for on our end i i think i mean we we're super excited for nakamoto right it's like
what i've been working towards for years with with the other people in the ecosystem and so it's
finally coming to fruition can't wait signers are gonna be really useful finally because for those
who don't know signers have been operational for a few months but didn't have really an active role
i mean even i believe if they were down i'm not sure if it mattered that much um but that will change
so um yeah make sure you if you're infra ready and um yeah that we're ready to go for the 28th
uh by the way if someone in the audience has a question uh feel free to you know request the speaker
button and um yeah we'll bring you on on stage to chat to those awesome folks here um if not um yeah
we have about five minutes left i don't have any specific questions on my end anymore um i just wanted to
mention actually about re-stake and imp stones too if you're also into solana they're both running a
solana validator um i always use this website called stakewiz.com i don't know if you guys know
it's stakewiz w-i-z um stakewiz that's one word and um you can type in a validator there it's another
solana validator i'm talking a lot about solana but whatever um if you type for instance re-stake there
you guys have really good scores um you have a zero percent skip rate where lower is better
um you have cheeto meth running i see imp stones also has cheeto meth running so um looks awesome
and i hope we can bring meth to stacks actually pretty soon to uh to build something similar with
stacking now so yeah excited for that too um but if no one has a question um why don't we you know get
to the end of this and um yeah silly from imp stones where can people you know from find more
information about imp stones where can people follow you yeah so uh please check out our website
imp stones.com i-n-f-s-c-o-n-e-s.com and you can reach out to our community managers on discord
and or send out uh you know messages on telegram we are active in all spaces uh so uh vivid reach
out to us and if you have questions not specifically about uh you know service we're providing just you
know excited learn more about solana learn more about stacking down stacks and you don't know who
to reach out to we are more than happy to connect you to the team
and uh you know just um we're very friendly folks so feel free to reach out to us and we're more than
happy to and looking forward to those conversations
yep for sure i mean my experience at least with with anyone in crypto i have to say is just like
don't be afraid to reach out um my dms are also open i do not respond to everyone always but i read
everything and my experience has been the same with honestly people big and small i mean idm or i
have dm with like the biggest uh the biggest accounts and if if you want to reach out to people one
one rule i use is just don't say hey how are you doing or whatever how's it going like drop all the
bullshit just say come open with your question cut straight to the facts i mean although anyone you
know i'm sure everyone is doing great you know but no need to ask that to me at least so just uh
just ask the question you want to ask um daphne where can people find you and do they have to ask
you if you're having a good day or not i don't know um no my dms are open uh or at least i hope so
and if they're not please let me know uh not sure how uh no i'm ten again my full name david
mercati i'm fully doxxed uh not sure why to be honest you know since uh it's not a prerequisite
but it is what it is now and so i'm fully doxxed you can find me on linkedin uh twitter on the restate
page you know i i invest in crypto i love crypto and uh my dms are open no honestly reach out you know
i actually reply to everyone i read every play i don't think i get as many inbounds as you do you know
uh maybe bumble but bumble i don't reply on everyone but on twitter i do
i love to see that bumble account someday but uh yeah for the time being um awesome yeah if you have
questions for either impstone three steaks silly daphne um feel free to reach out as they said and um
i hope you all have wherever you are a great afternoon evening or morning um if you're in a
hurricane area stay safe if you're not also stay safe so um yeah i appreciate you guys being here
and uh hope you have a great day thanks for being here and see you next time thank you bye guys yeah thank
you thank you thank you all bye cheers bye-bye
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