Well, it was playing on my end, but I thought you guys were able to hear it.
Yeah, we can all be in awkward silence.
Yeah, I sent you a co-host invite so you can bring on people in case they get disconnected.
Yep, hopefully I am not the one that gets disconnected, but yeah, I think you're good.
If I get disconnected, then this whole entire space ends.
So, let's cross our fingers that it doesn't happen.
Let's maybe give like another minute or so for folks to go in and then we can get started.
Cool. I think we can get started. Welcome, everyone. Really glad to be doing this space. I'll start with some intros for myself, and I would love to get our speakers today introduced.
So my name is Renna, and I work on the partnerships team at Off-Chain Labs, focusing mainly on DeFi and deep end growth.
And for those that's not familiar, Off-Chain Labs, we are the builders of Arbitrum, the Ethereum scaling solution.
We serve as service providers to the Arbitrum Foundation and core contributor to the Arbitrum tech stack.
So we'd love to maybe start with David from Privacy, if you want to go ahead and do a quick introduction, your background, what you guys are building.
And David, I just approved you to speak.
Yeah, yeah, I can hear you now, finally.
So yeah, I was switching between accounts.
I was using Privacy main account, but then I find out my colleague is using that, so I switched to my personal account.
Well, nice to meet you guys.
So why don't you, would you like to introduce yourself, what you guys are building on Privacy, your background?
I'm co-founder and CEO of Privacy.
So basically, my personal background was in the AI industry for many years.
I was building self-driving cars, like, you know, like what Waymo did.
But we, in 21 years, I started with my...
There was a background noise, but it's...
Okay, so yeah, then after many years of entrepreneurship, I started with doing, building applications in crypto space.
And in 22 years, I started with privacy, because I have seen some, like, very interesting topics between AI and the blockchain.
So I started looking into the privacy-perceiving technologies, like, you know, different kind of confidential computing, like the trusted execution environment, secure multi-body competition, and PC.
And also, zero-knowledge.
But eventually, me and my few colleagues, we started choosing for the home-up encryption, which is, we believe, is one of the most promising cryptographic technologies in the next couple of years.
And that is something we started to do the research and started building on it.
And we actually started to write a few patents on how to use FHU to monetize different kinds of datas in the very beginning.
And in 2023, we started actually moving these technologies to the deepening areas, because we believe, if we want to use this kind of technology, we need to crowdsource computation power.
And deepening, I would say, is one of the best ways to realize that, because, on the one hand, you can crowdsource computation power.
On the other hand, you have a whole set of smart contracts to make sure applications can run on those resources you crowdsource with.
And the token as incentive mechanism can also reward it to the public, which is really good.
That is kind of like a short journey, a long story short here.
Thank you so much for the introduction.
Definitely a lot of topics we would love to touch on later, like token incentives and FHU.
But for now, Anne, would you like to go?
So, I am the head of partnership in this project.
And I want to, like, introduce our project to you guys.
And we are M2E project based in Korea.
And for our, like, short history, we used to build a running application, like Web2 application in Korea.
But, like, we decided to put it on chain.
And we have been doing this M2E project already over two years.
And we are a leading Web3 healthcare and moves to earn the app with the largest user base in Korea and Japan.
So, we currently, we have over 240,000 MAU.
And for the NFT holders, we have over 25,000 NFT holders.
So, also Superwalk, we ranked in the top seven global DApps by Coingecko.
So, we are, like, making some revolution in M2E sectors with over 50,000 DAUs.
So, Superwalk, we offer seamless workout tracking, engaging many social interactions.
And also, we are hosting our, like, dynamic challenges and making fitness fun and rewarding.
Thank you so much for that.
Ki, would you like to go?
Lovely to be on the space today.
Thank you for inviting us.
A little bit about my background.
I'm the technical co-founder at Session.
I've got a computer science background and came into the space in 2018.
We were very interested in restoring people's privacy online, especially in conversations.
So, we want to build a space where people can have conversations like they have in real life without people listening in on them.
And we want to represent that in the digital space.
So, we built a messaging app called Session.
We just surpassed 1 million monthly active users recently, and the app is very focused on removing metadata from conversations and focus on end-to-end encryption.
And some more advanced techniques like onion routing to hide your IP address when you're using Session as well.
So, the D-Pin stuff comes into it because we don't use a centralized server.
We use a decentralized set of 2,100 nodes, which store and route users' messages.
And, yeah, I'm super happy to be on the space.
Yeah, I think privacy and messaging is such a fundamental pillar of this industry.
So, we're excited to dive more into what you guys are building.
But first, we'd love to start with kind of general discussions about D-Pin, sector growth, and Arbitrum.
And let's do this around Robin's style.
So, first question, you know, D-Pin has often been defined as this effort to decentralize critical infrastructure that's historically controlled by centralized entities.
And to do this, you are lowering barriers of entry for network participants.
Do you guys generally agree with this definition?
And if not, how would you define D-Pin otherwise?
Like, I think I agree part of it.
At least the decentralized infrastructure can lower down the barriers for entries of the participants who join a certain resources.
Like, it can be different kind of hardwares, can be different kind of like power resources, like we have seen so far in the market.
And if I want to add something here, I would like to say D-Pin for me is more like a hub or a market, which can empower more freedoms in the economics design, I would say.
So, if you have a project that you really want to have some resources from the public, D-Pin is probably one way to achieve that.
And for technology-wise, if D-Pin infrastructure is ready on the current market, then it's easier to onboard all kinds of applications.
I think, yeah, I think that's my point of view.
I mean, in general, I think that that's a good definition on D-Pin.
Yeah, I see what you mean.
Kind of essentially a way to crowdsource economic design of D-Pin projects.
Anne, would you like to go?
Yes, I also generally agree with the definition and like about like generally what David have just said.
But I think there's more like something more to it, especially when we look at this potential for like the real world use cases.
So, I think D-Pin isn't just about decentralizing the control and it's really about creating the ecosystem where the physical infrastructure, like there are so many cases, right?
Like computing power, the bandwidth, or even the IoT services is managed and they are maintained and really owned by the people who actually participate in that like certain networks.
So, if I can use our cases to explain it like more.
So, at Superbook, for example, we collect data because we are the M2E project.
So, we collect data from users' physical movements.
So, we track things like the GPS location from the user's like phones and also gyroscope data, like the like vibration about the like workout movements and the step count and also the time of the like when the user doing the exercise.
So, also like in the future, we expect to collaborate with more different projects to collect even more data.
Like for example, like we, there are also projects like the healthcare ring and the smartwatch and we will be able to collect more data such as the heartbeat rate.
So, like in conclusion, by using all this data, we could connect with like healthcare platforms or even insurance companies to create the new revenue streams.
This is what we think like DFIN can bring us like more, like more benefit to us.
For sure, yeah, I'm personally a huge wellness, wearable advocate, love biohacking.
So, it's definitely all really exciting to hear.
Yeah, I feel like when I got into the DFIN space or when I first heard the word DFIN, I was quite unsure about what it actually meant initially.
Um, I think like my first kind of narrow definition of what DFIN was, was networks that were deploying specialized hardware.
So, I feel like the most pure DFIN projects are kind of like maybe like WeatherXM or like Helium or something like that,
where you actually have like a physical node that's specially designed and you're putting it on the network and you're earning rewards for doing that.
But, but I think like you can go really wide with DFIN as well.
Like the definition sometimes, like I've heard people say that, say Bitcoin is a DFIN or Ethereum is a DFIN.
And I suppose like technically they are because, you know, you're incentivizing physical networks like miners, for example, in Bitcoin.
Through, you know, the provisioning of a block reward and you've created this physical infrastructure which exists.
So, I think like that's maybe a little bit of a stretch, like, but I mean, it's also contained within the definition, I think.
I'd say like middle ground is maybe like you don't have a physical architecture that you're putting out there, like WeatherXM or Helium,
but you have like a software that runs on cloud nodes that's just like generalized hardware.
So, I think I see like DFIN as a bit of a spectrum of like closer to like pure DFIN and then like further away from, from pure DFIN.
And I guess like Session probably exists in the middle of the spectrum.
We don't have like specialized physical hardware, which goes out into the world, but there is physical hardware, which runs on non-specialized.
Or sorry, there is a software which runs on non-specialized hardware, which forms the DFIN network.
And I think as DFIN sector grow and mature more, we're just going to see even more of these sub-sectors and then defining traits of such.
So, definitely see what you mean here.
So, moving on to the next question, kind of looking at supply and demand, especially within token incentives, right?
So, let's say demand is the need for this decentralized infrastructure services.
And then the supply side is decentralized participants, right?
Those supplying bandwidth or those contributing computing resources.
Within this model of supply and demand, what are some of like the biggest pros and cons, good or bad, we've seen within the current DFIN token incentives model?
Because, you know, there's definitely always debate once a DFIN project, you know, has a token launch.
And I think Twitter especially love to discuss and talk.
So, we'd love to hear from your perspective, what you've seen is good, what you've seen is bad.
Let's start with David again.
Yeah, that's a really good question, actually.
We have seen like in the current market, there are so many projects, I would say, they really try to focus on the supply side,
which is actually more different kind of physical infrastructure or more physical resources being put into this network.
Like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, for example, let's just say competition power, like, I have seen those famous competition power deep in projects in Solana in the circle, which is, I mean, obviously, supply is much over than the demand side, right?
So, the reason is that, I mean, the reality of this current market is not like demand is not there.
Demand is actually there, especially for large language model or, you know, those AI projects.
So, they actually need competition, like, cheap competition resources from deep in infrastructure.
So, demand is actually there.
The question is how the supply side can really achieve efficient supply supplement.
It means, you know, some of the infrastructure is only the work on the, like, for example, the smart contract of the, on building the consensus of this network.
But the existing, the software infrastructure is not there yet.
For example, in the web tool, if you have, like, really good competition in the cloud, in a cloud server, you're basically, the cloud server supplier will supply you with all kinds of infrastructure, software infrastructure, like, Kubernetes, you know, all kinds of, like, pipelines, right?
And all these pipelines makes you the real, the final real products really, really take effect in certain use cases or the scenarios you have been defining in your business purpose.
But, what we can see in the web industry, the supply side didn't really make sure those can be easily accessed by the users.
So, they provide the computation power, but in the end, no one could use that computation power really to build something like software services.
And no one is actually, not, not so many, I would say, I would say not 100%, but, like, large percent of these, uh, computation resources is wasted.
The people just want to farm in, in the, in this network to get those, uh, computation, uh, tokens, like, you know what I mean?
Um, yeah, this is the one thing I can see that, which is, uh, compared to, like, uh, traditional, uh, computation power, uh, rental business.
Like, you know, if you, if you, if you have 100 different H100, uh, 100, uh, uh, GPUs, H100, A100, whatever, you can, you can rent it for, for the Web2 business.
And you get, like, probably 18 to, uh, 18 to 24 months to get, uh, with your revenue to get your costs covered by, by the rental business.
But in, in, in D-Ping is, is another basic model, I would say.
But this is one thing I can see, uh, but yeah, for sure.
But this is like potential of the D-Ping, uh, industry.
Like we have, we need to, we need to build in, uh, software pipelines to make sure those, uh, supply can be really used in the real, real life or, or real world applications.
Thank you so much for that.
Anne, would you like to go?
I also totally agree with David about the problem of, like, the, uh, not balance of supply and demand, but I also want to start with some pros.
So I think, um, the token incentive models in D-Ping have been a great tool for driving early network growth.
So, especially when it comes to attracting the supply, supply side participants.
So like people, they have this like incentive to contribute their resources as like David just mentioned, right?
Like, like computing power, the GPU thing.
So also one of the biggest advantage is that this models lower the barrier for people to entry.
So even some small players, they can like freely join in and benefit from the instruct infrastructures.
And this kind of democratization is really important for early stage projects.
So I think it's really exciting, like how D-Ping connects with devices.
Uh, we are already used in our daily life, like smartphones or like computer IOT devices, vehicles, or like smartphone and watches.
Like, um, and also like we have the like healthcare rings things currently, right?
So users, like everyone can easily participate.
So I think it's a good part.
So even without knowing like people, they can like even participate in the blockchain ecosystem.
So I think it's one of the like good thing.
And, but of course there are some challenges.
Uh, one of the main issue is I actually, it's just as like David mentioned is about the balancing supply and the demand.
So currently, yes, I think of course, it's like more supply than demand in this sector.
So like too many people, they are providing their resources, but not only, but not enough demand for the, for the services.
So in terms of like token, the, um, the token model, it can cause some inflation in the token model.
So it will be hard to get like companies or users to actually adopt like the infrastructure.
So at super walk, like how we solve this problem is by, we create different types of contents and some events in our app to like develop, to solve this problem, which helps us to manage our economics.
So for example, like, because we are the M2E project, uh, users have to buy some NFT shoes in order to like walk and then to get some tokens.
So instead of only have the shoes, we also like newly added some equipment and the gear system to enhance the shoe performance.
So it's like contents wise, user, they can spend their money to like make their shoes more like powerful.
And then, uh, even by walking to the same distance, they can get more tokens.
Like it's like the game, the user, they can, they are willing to like spend money if they think the game is really like playable and fun and give them some value.
So this is, um, how we solve this problem at super walk.
So in addition to decentralizing the infrastructure, I think it's just as important to focus on generating the new demand for this like resources.
Yeah, I, I agree with, uh, both David and Anne here.
And yeah, like there's definitely way too much supply side, uh, work going on right now.
But I think like, that's just a result of the fact that it's very easy to issue a token and, uh, or do like a points program.
And there's a lot of farming going on out there as well.
So there's a lot of people who are willing to set up nodes to collect those points or tokens.
But I actually think like, it's not just a deep in problem that, like that this is happening in.
Like we see this with the L ones as well.
Like there's a lot of L ones that are talking about how they have or how they can support like a million transactions per second or, you know, whatever number they're coming up with.
But there isn't actually the demand to consume that much like block space right now.
So I think it's not just happening in deep in space.
It's also happening in the L one and L two space.
There's a lot more block space than there is actually demand for, uh, right now.
Fees, fees are fairly low across the board.
It's gone up a little bit now that the bull markets, uh, back, but, um, yeah.
Um, the other thing in deep in, I think is that like it, it allows you to solve two major issues.
And for us, like these are, these are big issues with public, uh, privacy networks.
So if you look at Tor, for example, like they have a really big civil attack issue.
Cause anyone can spin up a node in Tor and start providing bandwidth, uh, to the network.
You never really know who that node is, but if you provide, or if you, uh, put a barrier to entry to the network, which is a stake that you have to provide for a node, or you have a physical device, for example, that you have to buy.
It's a lot harder for malicious parties to get, you know, full control of a network.
And it also, uh, helps you, uh, control like a tragedy of the commons issue.
Like if you have a public infrastructure that a lot of people want to use and you don't charge for it, or it isn't incentivized, often you're going to get like a lower performance, uh, out of that infrastructure itself.
So deep in solves both of those issues, usually by adding a barrier to entry, either by a stake or you need like a piece of physical infrastructure.
And then also like you get rewarded for running those nodes as well.
So it incentivizes a higher level of performance and you can also kind of cut people off the network if they're not performing at a certain level.
But yeah, I think, uh, the supply side issue is a big thing.
And I think there's also a lot of short term tokenomic thinking going on as well.
Um, I think people are issuing tokens, which they don't think are going to be around in two years, maybe, because if you look at the token economics, there's no real, uh, like sink for tokens to be like taken out of circulation or at least like be circular in their nature.
So I think, uh, teams need to perhaps get a bit more serious about designing the token economics.
So they're sustainable longterm and provide a way for, you can't just inflate into infinity.
Like you can't just keep minting tokens and giving them to nodes forever.
There needs to be some way that tokens come out of circulation or at least flow back to the nodes from some sustainable source.
So yeah, I think that's, um, what I'd say on the topic.
I think anytime we touch upon tokens, token incentives, airdrop, it gets a little spicy, controversial, whatever you may say, but you know, like users, they want to say, Oh, I did the same.
But as good builders, you have to think about, okay, how do we make sure it's sustainable?
How do we do quality control?
How do we actually think about the demand side of things?
And it's great to hear, you know, your, you guys' perspective on this and kind of, you know, going into the Arbitrum world a bit, uh, obviously everyone here is building within Arbitrum.
So we'd love to hear, you know, why build with Arbitrum your experiences so far, um, feel free to show, uh, let's go with David.
Um, maybe I can add a bit more on the previous question and, uh, to clear my, clear my points.
I mean, uh, I, I mean, I wouldn't say the, the supply side is not a really issue.
It's just, uh, uh, you know, uh, from the demand side is there's always a demand there.
Otherwise there won't be a project, won't be a deep in project on this because demand side is always, uh, the starting point.
Uh, what, what I mean is there is, uh, is, is supply side, uh, we need more, we need more like, um, software infrastructure to make sure the supply side resources can be reached to the end users.
That's what, that's what I, what, what I mean.
So just to be clear a bit on my point and, uh, yeah, we are building on Arbitrum and, uh, actually, uh,
a few months ago, we, uh, we were starting with the building on Solana and Solana is good also, but, uh, for Arbitrum is, uh, uh, we, we starting with Arbitrum is because we won't have, uh, uh, more, I would say, uh, I would say it's a cheaper, uh, solution for us, at least in our proof of human infrastructure.
Uh, so, uh, maybe I should, uh, give a little bit introduction here on what we are doing.
On what we are building on privacy here.
So privacy is, uh, deep infrastructure.
And on top of it, we also building our own application.
This is, uh, this is a very different from other, uh, deep in, uh, projects, I would say, because most of the deep in projects, they provide, uh, provide, uh, uh, infrastructure and let others to build on it.
And we, we want to be, uh, we want to be, uh, we want to be one of the, uh, one of the application on the demand side to let users to directly access to our network.
So, we're building the proof of human scenarios by using, uh, FHC, uh, stands for, for the home of encryption.
And using FHC machine learning pipelines to, uh, on the one hand, we prove the human, humanities by, uh, scanning the face.
And the users can use that to, uh, to, uh, to mint, uh, Sobon and NFT.
Right now we minted it in, uh, uh, in Labbitrum.
And, uh, it's, uh, is way, is way cheaper here.
And so, uh, I think as a healthy business, uh, uh, model, uh, lower down the cost is really important.
And, uh, the minting fees have been lowered quite a lot.
So we have, uh, uh, like a small margin of profit margin here to make us more healthier, uh, in the current business, uh, models.
And then we can supply, uh, building, uh, the, the services, the proof of human services for different ecosystems
and integrate it to, uh, different on-chain or off-chain applications.
And that is awesome, uh, really awesome for us.
Because that's, uh, something we always want to achieve.
Because, uh, without healthier, uh, this model, it's really hard for, uh, for projects to move, moving on, uh, in the current market.
Uh, we cannot always spend, uh, investors' money.
We should start to, uh, building the user basis and generate revenues based on the application we provided to the market.
So, yeah, that's, uh, something I want to share.
Thank you so much, David.
Yeah, I think why we chose Arbitrum is quite simple and straightforward.
And, like, Arbitrum, it offers a really great environment, uh, for the builders with lots of users and the liquidity and also, like, uh, massive technical support from the foundation.
And I think Arbitrum has consistently has a really strong user base and showed some of the, um, very, like, active on-chain activities right now.
And also, the liquidity is also, like, really impressive, um, which has helped, like, many DeFi projects to strive on the platform.
And also, we have, we want to mention that we are also really impressed by the technical, technical innovation led by off-chain labs, um, especially with Orbit chain and stylus.
We believe that, like, these are the really good, great moves, and we are sure that it will, um, also attract even more builders, uh, to the Arbitrum in the future with the help.
And so, at Superwalk, we are really excited to align ourselves with Arbitrum's ecosystem.
And we believe that we can grow together with Arbitrum in the future.
Awesome. Thank you so much for that.
And for those that don't know, um, Anne mentioned Orbit and stylus.
So, Orbit is, um, a permissionless way for developers to deploy their own L2 or L3 using the Arbitrum tech stack.
And stylus is a new programming environment where Rust C or C++ is VVM compatible.
So, two new things, uh, within Arbitrum tech.
Um, you, you said, uh, feel free to shill.
So, I'm gonna get on my, uh, shilling train, uh, with Arbitrum.
I, I think it's, like, everyone, you know, I know, I know base is really hot right now, but I think, uh, Arbitrum is actually based.
You know, it's, it's, I think it's the best, uh, L2 out there right now deployed.
It's got the largest TVL, um, most liquid.
And that's without, like, farming incentives.
Obviously, like, the Arbitrum airdrop's already been done.
So, like, there's other chains that are, you know, kind of living on, uh, living on points right now or the, the promise of, uh, being farmed at a later point.
And I think that, you know, they have larger TVL because of that.
But, you know, Arbitrum's gotten that out of the way.
And it still has really high TVL, still has really high activity.
Um, from a technical perspective, like, it's one of the, one of the, like, only stage one, uh, like, you know, in terms of the L2 beat, like, uh, analysis rollups that's actually, like, deployed.
So, and it has a really good path to stage two as well with, uh, with bold, uh, which has been talked about in the community.
Um, another thing that isn't mentioned that much is, like, Arbitrum stays up and online, like, a lot.
And that's, uh, not something you can say for a lot of the other smaller L2s or even L1s.
Um, you know, when you send an Arbitrum transaction, you're pretty sure that it's going to go through to the network.
Um, and yes, it's very stable.
Uh, and yeah, the, the features that, uh, like the off-chain labs guys are building are, like, very cool as well.
So, yeah, stylus, obviously, uh, I want to talk about that a little bit later.
Um, and yeah, like, uh, some of the other stuff that you guys working on with, uh, with Nova as well.
So why don't we talk about Arbitrum stylus a bit?
Um, so as I mentioned, it's essentially a new programming environment, allowing, uh, the developers to code and Rust, see C++ to be EVM compatible.
And actually went live this month, which brings possibilities of ZK to Arbitrum chains.
And so maybe we'll start with David, um, and go down the list again of where do you guys see innovations with ZK and Deepin?
Um, especially now, you know, that's a possibility with stylus for Arbitrum chains.
Uh, for, uh, from privacy side, we actually, uh, heavily doing on confidential computing side.
And of course, ZK one of them and, uh, uh, uh, and for, for privacy, we more focus on the, uh, another, uh, confidential computing technique called FOG, uh, for the home of encryption.
And in high level, it's, uh, it's, uh, it, it allows, uh, allows you to, to compute computation, uh, to, to compute things without decryption.
Uh, so compared to ZK, you know, uh, it's, uh, I would say it's, uh, it's more, uh, more scalable in, uh, it, it, it comes to computation side.
So ZK, one hand, you need to, like, reveal part of the incarnation to public and to prove the other side, right?
And it's, it's, it's basically a proof technology, a proof technique.
And FHC is more like, uh, um, computation method on the encrypted data.
And, uh, if you have, like, very sensitive data needs to be, like, permanently stored,
it's also better to use some technology which is, can handle your, uh, sensitive data, uh, for the whole data life cycle, uh, end-to-end encrypted.
And FHC can easily, to do that.
And, uh, um, and what privacy do here, uh, like, the proof of human thing we are doing right now,
is basically to use that to handle the biometric data.
Like, your face feature, uh, is one of the biometric data.
It can be used for other, um, sensitive biometric data, too.
Like, probably, uh, generic features.
Or, uh, you know, like, what content, like, to collect, uh, the iris data from public.
So, for those, those technologies needs to be, needs to have, like, infrastructure layer, or midware layer,
to be compatible with the current, uh, layer one, layer twos.
Uh, I mean, uh, using existing consensus to make sure, uh, your application is running decentralizedly,
and, uh, uh, can be, can be compatible with, uh, token economics you have.
I like the, the gas fee, and, you know, the, the node runner, the world node runners, you know, those sort of things.
And, um, yeah, I mean, I think Arbitron really is a good fit on this.
It provides all the tools, and, uh, EVM compatible with all the, uh, the, the contract you have.
And it's, uh, it's a great fit for us.
Uh, Ki or Ann, did you guys want to add anything there?
Um, yes, maybe I can go first.
So, I think David has doing, like, has explained a lot, and thanks for the explanation.
And for the listeners who are not quite familiar with the terms, I think it can be a, like, quite complex topic.
But I will try to explain it, like, in a simpler way.
So, um, Zero Knowledge Proof is a way to prove information without actually revealing the data itself, right?
So, for a successful DFIM project, there will be a lot of user activity.
So, if all that activity were to post on the Arbitron mainnet, it could become overloaded.
So, thanks to off-chain labs, um, the technology, and, um, you guys have made, like, all Orbit chain available for everyone to build without permission.
So, using stylus, um, developers can use any programming language to build.
So, any different project can build its own L3 on Orbit chain and handle transactions there and send that data back to Arbitron.
So, by using ZKE Proof, this process can, like, greatly improve the scalability.
So, within, um, this Chiro-based verifier contracts on Arbitron 1 and the ZKE Proof on L3, projects can implement ZKE Rollup.
And this setup allows DFIM project to leverage Arbitron's large ecosystem and while keeping the thing scalable.
So, if they use native tokens for transaction fee, this could also help strengthen the demand side, I think.
So, we hope that mass adoption will happen on the Arbitron chain using this incredible, um, tech stack.
And at Superwalk, we also want to, like, play a role to help and by bringing more users to the L3.
Yeah, I'll, I'll just go straight off the back of that.
Um, I think that was a really good explanation of, of how things, or of how stylus, uh, works and what it enables.
For us, I think one of the coolest uses that, uh, we're looking at right now is, um, we, we use BLS signatures to kind of, uh, post back, uh, a roll-up of, uh, roughly of our consensus layer, uh, to the Arbitron chain.
And right now to validate, uh, these BLS signatures, uh, on Arbitron one, uh, using EVM is quite expensive.
That's mostly because Ethereum hasn't implemented the right, uh, precompile contracts yet.
Um, but with stylus, what we can do is like, uh, we can actually take like C++, uh, BLS libraries and implement them directly in C++.
And then compile that, uh, to WASM, which, you know, stylus, you can run WASM code.
Uh, and then you can actually use those contracts on chain without needing to like, uh, without needing to wait for Ethereum to implement like certain precompiles, uh, that we need to efficiently validate this, uh, this BLS logic.
So that's what we're looking at it for.
Um, I think there's probably a lot of use cases there where you couldn't efficiently write a contract, um, in solidity and implement it, uh, to run on top of the EVM.
But you could implement it, uh, nicely, uh, in C++ or C and then, uh, compile to WASM and then you can run it on stylus.
So I think that's an interesting, very interesting use case as well.
Um, loved hearing from you guys kind of the, you know, uh, feedback innovations we can see with a stylus tech.
Um, so I would love to now dive a little bit more deeper into your respective.
Uh, why don't we kind of switch up the order a bit and go backwards now?
So key in regards to session, uh, you mentioned this already, uh, with a near router.
Um, but would you be able to kind of maybe walk us through a bit more sessions integration with Loki net on the router?
Um, and then, you know, if you can dive into how effective the staking component has been in this network participation.
I mean, so just to describe like the high level problem, uh, to people, uh, when you use like telegram or signal, uh, you're connecting to their central servers when you send a message.
Uh, and when you do that, uh, typically you'll be connecting with your raw IP address.
So it's just like your home IP address, for example, or your work IP address.
And that can reveal quite a bit of information about the person that's connecting to the server.
And then on the receiving side as well, if someone's receiving a message, they're usually connecting with their IP address to receive that message as well.
Um, which means that these centralized servers end up getting a lot of data about users, even if they're not getting the actual users message content.
So even if the messages end to end encrypted in this case, you can still kind of start to form connections between individuals, um, based on their IP addresses.
So what we do is, uh, at session is we use onion routing and onion routing is a technology that was developed, uh, like 10, 15 years ago, originally used in Tor.
Um, and basically it chains, uh, a number of intermediary nodes between you and the destination.
So you kind of hop between multiple different nodes and it obscures your IP address from the destination or the server that you're speaking to.
So they don't see your IP address.
Um, we have a technology called Loki net, which is like an advanced version of this right now.
We're using, uh, something called onion request, which is a bit more of a naive implementation of this.
Uh, looking at it's coming along really nicely.
Uh, we're still working on it internally and we made a lot of progress in the last week, actually.
So we're hoping to switch over to that protocol eventually.
Um, and that should deliver a big speed improvement, uh, for session when we switch over to that protocol.
Um, on the node side, I think like we have been able to build a really effective, uh, network and we've been running at the amount of nodes that we've had now for, I think nearly three or four years.
Uh, so we're just up to 2100 nodes.
Um, and that's serving our users really well with a lot of, uh, headroom for growth as well.
Um, so like, yeah, right now at 2100 nodes, I think like the nodes are probably only 10% utilized with our 1.2 million monthly active users.
So we could definitely push up, uh, to, to more users, uh, and, and still not run into any, uh, supply side, uh, problems.
So we, we, we've also got the same problem that I was talking about before with, uh, more supply side than, uh, than demand right now.
Uh, which is honestly a better problem to have than, uh, to have the demand side and then not be able to serve those, uh, users.
Um, so yeah, we, and, and, and the network scales as well, depending on how many, uh, users there are in the future.
So the more users typically in, in, in sessions, uh, token economics, there's some, uh, feedback mechanisms to, to put more tokens into the network and, and to have those go to nodes.
So yeah, uh, I think it's been working well for us.
Uh, I guess for Anne, um, on super walk, how would you differentiate super walk with competitors like step in and kind of a followup on like just the general X to earn.
Um, we've historically kind of seen, uh, that it actually has had an issue with retaining user interest when it's fun, like design wise, it should have more, um, user attention.
So do you think there's any, you know, lessons of what super walk has learned from that?
Is there any differentiator and how super walk is working to build more resilient communities compared to perhaps competitors?
I think both are the really good questions.
And for, before answering the first question, I want to ask the speakers or the listeners, like, what's your favorite burger chain?
Like McDonald's burger king.
Like, personally, I like McDonald's, but like, I think it's similar for Stefan and super walk.
It's really comes down to like personal preference because, uh, I think we are quite different.
So how we are different, um, there are some key differences we have.
And I think the first one I have to mention is how the reward, the tokens is, um, structured to give, give out.
So, um, our reward system is designed for long-term user engagement and sustainability.
So what I mean is that I, we are not like, we are M3 project, right?
You have your NFT shoes and you walk every day, you get your tokens, but like, we don't give users like the tokens right away.
We give them the point instead.
And at midnight, we give out, uh, we convert this point into the tokens.
So for the, like points, we have the, no, for the tokens, we have the like quite stable pool for every day.
It's the reward pool is quite stable.
So we convert this point to tokens based on their like daily activity.
So in this way, we prevent inflation and maintaining the, in the user's interest in the long run.
So this is why, like how we survived over two years and our like price of our token is remain, remaining quite stable.
So this is how we are doing.
And the second thing is our technology and the abuse prevention.
So, um, we take user engagement really seriously.
And this is why we have a dedicated full-time employee focus on the combating abuse, uh, for already for two years.
So we, uh, how we do this is that we monitorize the data from the GPS and the gyroscope systems.
And then we process through our like fraud detection system.
We call it FDS and this help us identify the suspicious users and conduct individual, uh, investigation if we need it.
So also, um, additionally, we are like planning to collaborate with the healthcare and smartwatch projects to bring some new data, for example, the heart rate.
And in this way we can like totally like remove the abusing users.
And also, um, the third one is what actually what I mentioned before.
Um, we really focus on enhance our content and also our community engagement.
So, um, I, I think I mentioned our equipment and the gear system before.
And also besides this, we also have, um, some community events.
For example, we have this special, special feature called team walk.
And we, uh, randomly group the participants into like different groups and they can compete daily, um, to like achieve more exercise and to get more points.
And also, we also implement some monthly sims.
So, um, in order to make our users, um, feel more fun while they exercise, we take this different sims, um, monthly.
And for example, in summer, we have this theme called like water village with all the blue and the ocean fields.
And in spring, we have the fairy forest theme in the green.
So in this way, we want to keep our community engaged and they, I keep, keep their excitement.
So I think this is how we differentiate ourselves with Stefan.
And for the second question, like X to earn models, I think also it's, uh, it's quite, um, important question.
And I believe that actually, but I believe that there are sustainability issues with many extra models, but like in super walk, we are working very hard to solve this problem.
And to make our project more sustainable.
So we mainly focus on three things.
First thing is actually the same as what I mentioned before as the first things, the stable reward mechanism.
So because we convert to the point into the tokens every day at the midnight, we can get more control on our tokenomics and to make, uh, to prevent inflation.
And secondly is that we do take diverse revenue streams and the partnerships.
So we leverage our large user base in Korea because we are the, like, um, the app with the largest user base in Korea.
So we use this user base and to help other projects to enter the market.
For example, like for some global project who is interested in coming to Korea market, we can, we are here to help and we can help them to explore like ecosystem in Korea.
And, um, also like by getting some rewards instead, like by helping them to like come to Korea, we can earn some rewards and then we can also distribute this rewards to our users.
So like, in this sense, it's like how we get some rewards beyond our own tokenomics.
And also we do collaboration with two companies, for example, the Brooks, the very famous running shows brand.
And we use this kind of like partnership and collaboration to enhance our visibility and offer like unique experience to our users.
And finally, we have to mention our community.
We really, um, we really, we think the user feedback is really important to us.
So there is the sense of belonging in our platform and we have this like really strong community.
Like for example, um, last July, it was our second year anniversary and we hold some like IRL events for our holders.
And we reserved 200 slots and we sold the ticket with the price 150 US dollar and it was sold out in eight seconds.
So we have this really loyal user base.
So, um, together, this is how we, uh, and also, I also want to mention one more thing.
We have the free to play mode.
So there are two modes in our application.
The one mode with the NFT shoes is a pro mode.
And then on the other hand, we also have this free to play mode in our app to attract the web to users.
So we are aiming to reach 5 million users in Korea and become the, really the like king of the app in Korea.
This is our like vision for the future.
Thank you so much for that.
And David, um, you kind of touched upon, you know, FHE, what FHE is proof of human.
Um, you did also mention that, you know, there, there's a lot of applications, uh, for integrate, uh, rooms for integration with different dApps, um, within different ecosystems.
Uh, we'd love to hear more kind of on what privacy is doing or some, you know, interesting integrations or partnerships you guys have.
So right now we are, uh, building the proof of human, it's called I am human.
It's actually, uh, we help the users to prove themselves in certain scenarios to, as a human, right?
You know, this is not just for web three, it can be for, uh, uh, uh, web two or web 2.5.
Um, you know, just few months back when one of my friends, uh, is chatting with, uh, someone in Tinder, you know, uh, in the, in the very beginning of the first 10 minutes, he was chatting with a bot.
And he was so embarrassed by that.
And then this kind of situation is quite common in, you know, in, in, in, in web three gaming or, you know, some of the, the chat groups you have in the telegram, which is, we see so many boats there, which is, uh, which is not good for the user experience.
Uh, for, and also there comes to, uh, uh, uh, in the current, in the current crypto space.
I mean, the count, there are so many scams based on, uh, using these boats, uh, for, uh, to get airdrops or something like, like, uh, like a CB tag, CB attack.
So we building this tool is as like two FA tools in those scenarios to, to verify the human likeness and, uh, to make sure the users can, you make sure the project can reward the real human users.
Or, uh, uh, you can create real human close group in social networks or, uh, in, in gaming networks, right?
So the, the, the FHE as a technology is just to prove, uh, to, to preserve these, uh, the, the, the biometric data we collect, we, we, we verified in our notes.
And so as a user, when you, when you, uh, scan your face, your feature will be immediately encrypted and, and, uh, maintained as a sold on NFT.
And this is like your, your unique addresses for verify yourself in any other scenarios.
And the next time, uh, in the real time verification, uh, we just requires you to verify, to scan your face again.
And this face will be, will be compared, uh, in encrypted, in, in cyber tech space, which is an encrypted state.
And verify, uh, the, the, the compilation can, can, the result can be used for verifying you are human, right?
So, yeah, as, as one of the, the use cases we're building right now is to integrate it, for example, with, um, telegram users.
So, our proof of human app can associate with telegram account.
And you can link to the telegram account.
And in the telegram chart, you can ask the, the, the, the, the one you chart with, uh, to do the proof of human.
Before they ask you to do something, for example, if they ask you to do, to, to, to send a screenshot, you know, this is one of the most common scam, uh, in telegram to ask you to send a screenshot.
Then they, they get your account as a, you know, the hackers, the hackers play in the, in the last two years.
So, which is, I have been, I have been faced once, like, my previous account has been hacked like that.
So, I, I, I would, so, as a tool, as a tool, so we want to provide this kind of, uh, anti-scan method for users.
And it's actually really working because once, uh, once you, uh, provide this, uh, verification, um,
you can easily bypass those, uh, scenarios without actually being hacked.
And in the meantime, your, your, uh, biometric data, your, your face at this moment is this face.
Uh, your face features will be encrypted permanently for the whole life cycle.
It means even, uh, even you, you, you lose your account, even, even next time you forgot your, like, your, um,
Your biometric data is still there.
Been in, uh, IPFS addresses.
And since FHG is, like, quantum, is quantum proof, like, um, post-quantum technologies.
It means the current quantum computer couldn't hack it.
So your, your biometric data is permanently securely stored, uh, for the whole data life cycle.
And in the meantime, you can use FHG to process it for any comparison or computation.
And, and FHG feature is just one, the first step we are doing.
And the next step, we are going to combine with the voice, the voice feature.
And then the fingerprints.
So basically, uh, what we try to build is a multi-biometrics feature combined to FA2 for the current market.
And, uh, yeah, we, uh, during summer, we already got 250k user minted.
Uh, and right now we believe in Abitram.
We can achieve, uh, more user basis because, uh, here is more, um, more, like, active users really try to build on Abitram.
And more, uh, users are trying to, like, find the, the, like, you know, those ecosystem, uh, partners here.
And, uh, uh, like, super work here.
Like, uh, it is already, uh, a big, uh, uh, move to a platform, which is, there are so many real users using this application.
And we can also improve this experience for, uh, like super work or similar, uh, ecosystem partners in Abitram.
And, uh, to protect the user, uh, privacy and prove the human likeness for users to be really get, uh, better experience on, in Abitram.
Thank you so much for that.
And then really helpful, you know, and adult as well, OPSEC and the importance of what you guys are building on.
Unfortunately, we are at time.
I think we could go on forever if we had the slots open, but, um, we are at time.
So I think to wrap up, um, we'd love to give our speakers a chance to, you know, talk about anything coming up with a project they'd like to cover.
How can users get involved?
Um, anything they want to, you know, highlight with the remaining time we have, uh, Key, if you want to go first.
Um, I don't know if it was a rhetorical question, but, uh, my, my favorite, uh, burger restaurant is, uh, is in and out.
Um, and now, but seriously, uh, if you're, if you're looking at, uh, at Telegram right now, and you're, you're worried about what's going on, uh, in the Telegram space with, uh, the policies changing and Pavel being in prison and all of that, um, I would encourage you to, to have a look at session.
Um, we take user privacy or session takes user privacy really seriously.
Um, we don't have central servers where users messages are stored.
It's stored on a decentralized network.
Um, so yeah, you can download the app, uh, on all of the app stores.
Just look up session where if you just Google session as well, you run into the website.
Um, and yeah, if you, uh, if you enjoyed what I was speaking about, you can, uh, give me a follow on, uh, on Twitter as well.
And, um, yeah, thanks for having us guys.
Thank you so much for inviting us today.
And thanks David for the mention and also key, like for answering my previous question.
Um, like, uh, we are going to hold, uh, the like marathon next year, maybe with over 10 K users in Korea.
So I will send you invites for now David key.
So you guys are welcome to join us and please, uh, always keep an eye on us.
Um, yes, we are going to be made to grow in Arbitrum.
Last but not least, David.
Thank you so much for inviting me to this panel.
Uh, we, uh, we, uh, we actually have a large marketing campaign on our proven human app.
Uh, we're going to airdrop like 10% of our token distribution to the application users.
And also for the, for the project we have been, uh, in, in Arbitrum, we would like to partner
with, uh, all of them and, uh, uh, uh, welcome to join our proven human ecosystem.
Uh, we can build together.
Thanks everyone again for joining today.
Um, really enjoyed the discussion and, you know, excited to keep building, you know, deep
and keep building your projects on Arbitrum.