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This week in Virtuals with WachAI and Sage!
Recorded: Aug. 15, 2025 Duration: 2:05:30Space Recording
Short Summary
Sage, an innovative educational platform leveraging AI, is set to launch its token and revolutionize online learning by providing personalized courses. The project, backed by strategic partnerships and a growing team, aims to tap into the $380 billion online education market, promising significant growth and opportunities for creators.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. yo yo yo good morning good morning good morning. Good morning. How are you, man?
Dude, really good. Really good. I don't know. It's Friday.
Just feels like there's good aura, good vibes in the air today.
Yeah, good. What about you?
Yeah, it's Independence Day in my country.
So everybody's off and everybody's chilling.
So it's like a really cool environment today.
That's awesome. Do you guys like, do you celebrate?
Like, you know, everybody sees in the States, it's fireworks and all that same over there.
I mean, not fireworks. So in the morning, people will go out to fly kites and there's a competition like whose kite flies the highest in the sky. And then there's like a speech that the prime
minister gives on this monument. Um, so today was like a record long speech. It's called the Red
Fort. so they give
you speech and there's a parade and everything so all those sort of things but no fireworks
that sounds cool that sounds real cool um all right this is like um dude these friday spaces
like you know my show's always casual this is like wicked casual um i'm debating if i'm gonna fire
off the video side or not i might just on abstract
um let me see let me see what i want to do here um
i'm using my phone so i'll have to shift to my laptop for the video right
you know i mean it's up to you if you want to come on video or not like i'm not even sure i'm
going to launch the video side till like because normally i do the video an hour later and i got
sage on for that i might not do video for this first hour.
It might just be spaces.
Um, that'll be cool.
That'll be cool because I might have to leave after the first 45 minutes or so.
Yeah.
I hope that's okay.
Dude.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Cause I think like we're mostly just going to chat about the week and
virtuals and then of course, like give us your update and talk about that new
thing you guys are doing.
Um, but I'm assuming people are going to come in and we'll chat cause chat because virtual dude there's all kinds of virtuals news this morning like their account
all of a sudden got really active huh which one oh yeah uh which one sorry the virtuals account
like they've got a whole bunch of tweets out in the past 24 hours about new stuff
uh it was a holiday so i didn't check much i've been so active on farcaster recently that i've
much as i've been so active on farcaster recently that i've still just uh oh yeah now i see dude i
mean okay new hackathon uh an eth hackathon um what else this alt coin is thing which i don't
totally get i gotta dive into that more i did see that but i didn't understand what's going on
yeah i feel like there was one other thing um hang on okay we've got oh well the the flag shipping
thing earlier in the week was awesome i feel like there's one other okay altcoinist flagship
hackathon ethermaze tweeting about what if agents are the uh you know nfts of this cycle i think
i think that's a cool tweet yeah 100 it's pretty much the same thing but i'm just hoping that
they don't fade out like NFTs did.
And I'm hoping the hype lives longer.
You know, it's funny.
I almost don't think they can
because, you know, like NFTs,
like the thing that got us all hyped last cycle was what?
It was like the idea you were buying into like a project
and ultimately a product in that,
like this forever thing. And we thought it was a new way
to invest in it and none of them delivered any actual products though like nobody really built
much i mean a few of them did for sure and the flip side is this one that nobody's thinking
about like the nft meta but it's the same thing we're we're betting on teams we're betting on
projects and products and so far we're seeing some of them have real deal shit that actually works and actually makes sense.
I feel like it's going to work.
Yeah.
The thing that's happened with me this cycle, like last cycle with the NFTs, I did ape into a bunch of NFTs, but I didn't exit quick enough.
So I lost a bunch.
And this cycle, we have been so focused on building that by the time that I spot the meta outside
of what we are building it's probably too late or something's pumped already so I don't
see the upside. And then there's been like really small mini cycles that have been really
hard to spot if you're not like super into just in the trenches. And we've been in the
trenches in terms of building but not in terms of trying to
spot meta or try to invest or grow my personal funds yep yep like i haven't had like like a
100x or maybe even like a 10x to be honest i mean the max i did was probably on vac itself
where i invested all the points that i have smart i keep on i keep on just buying our own token but
i haven't really had the time to you know explore
more opportunities to um just ape into other tokens which which I should have done well
I think you're gonna have a nice chance coming up like this whole virtual season three I love that
we call it that but like yeah I think feels like this is gonna be bigger than anything we've seen
but like dude it's it's like a very common misconception I think people have because I used to if you work in crypto, you're probably on top of everything in crypto and making a ton of money trading things.
And it's like, you know, like the guys who work in this space, they're like those guys you see out in the real world who are there grinding 24-7 on their thing, on their gig.
Like the super successful people out there, like you don't have time to keep up with stuff in crypto, which is kind of a bummer.
But yeah, I got woken up to that you know over the past few years i'm like i don't know what's going on out there i'm too focused on our stuff you know um yeah it is what
it is yeah yeah yeah by the way guys everybody tuning in here we got just a few of you uh right
now but everybody's welcome to come up and chat um the more people we have you know the the shorter takes we'll probably ask you know ask for but uh everybody's welcome to come up and say what's up
and we'll talk a little bit about market um we'll get into some of these stories uh
yes some of these i think spicy virtuals tweets from this morning i'm still debating if i'm gonna
fire off the video side you guys should i fire video right now, guys? Maybe thumbs up if you want to see the video side now.
I'm good not.
But by the way, in 55 minutes, definitely firing off the video.
We got Sage coming on.
And I think, dude, am I thinking right?
Is this their first appearance on anything?
Has Sage done any spaces?
I really don't keep track, to be honest.
But I don't think they have that one's interesting
but i don't think they've done a lot of spaces in general yeah yeah i think it might be the first
which would be cool okay educational acp it's super interesting i can like i can go in a million
directions of what i think that's going to look like and what it's for.
But that's why I can't wait to talk to them because I think I'm missing some stuff.
And I think it's bigger than I'm thinking too.
So I'm going to pull some spicy health out of them, I hope.
The last I read about them, I think their launch date was postponed from 13th to the 20th so stage is
one of the launches that i was uh conserving my points for but to be honest i don't have a bunch
of points because i'm not not super active you're not that active yeah i really don't get points
how many points are you sitting on right now dude okay we're not we're not far off i'm at an all-time
high now and i just crossed 200k for the first time but but you know like we know there's guys
out there sitting on millions tens of millions and look our buddy cats just crossed a mill for
the first time so good for him but like yeah dude guys are cooking on points and i'm i'm not you're
not we'll make it another way somehow, but not in these Genesis launches.
What do you think about Genesis, by the way?
Mixed. I think everybody's right that we need some tweaks to it.
I love the idea. Who doesn't love that you can get into a pre-sale?
I like the point system in theory, it worked and it will still work when
it's growing when more users are coming in it makes sense but like when we stagnate then the
guys who really got ahead stay ahead and you can't really catch up so like the idea is great but it
needs tweaks yeah what do you think i mean so as you said right uh just like maybe a week back
there was absolutely no liquidity in genesis launches and as a dev you have no control
over the supply and i mean if you're doing a regular launch you can i think buy up to 90 91
percent of the supply and there's a lot of ways that you can control the prices and the best way
the best marketing is sort of the token bumping but that's i mean that's if you already have a
decent treasury with gen Genesis you can potentially
bootstrap all the marketing and I mean virtual sort of gives you a flywheel to do your launch
for a hundred dollars and that's all you potentially need I mean when we did the launch
we didn't spend an extra dollar in anything and just tried to incentivize all these stakeholders
with our tokenomics so that's the beauty of Genesis. So as you said, it sounds
beautiful in theory, but as soon as the liquidity starts to dry off and maybe virtuals dumps a bit,
Genesis hits the worst. So that's the pitfall of Genesis. If virtuals is doing well, then Genesis
is a good way to go about it. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Great points. Okay. Explain this to me. I'm not
great with tokenomics like right
so like the past couple weeks and i've probably driven by the ring fence thing
you know there's i don't know i guess like if a team launches on genesis in theory you get less
tokens than if you were to launch prototype is that correct who gets the dev gets less tokens
yeah i guess in theory but i don't know if that's only because, okay, if you launch prototype,
you get more tokens because you can buy them as soon as you launch.
Is that the reason you can get more tokens that way?
See, I mean, I don't know.
I think RingFence did that for, I mean, I don't know.
I can't speak to their mentality because I haven't talked to them about their launch.
We are doing some interesting things in the cluster together.
But in terms of their launch, I don't know things in the cluster together but in terms of their
launch i don't know why they shifted it last minute probably like a marketing move or trying
to do something different but yeah if you do like a genesis launch you can only have at most 50% of
your supply with you unless you buy from the market and from the market i mean from the
liquidity pool and that's already
at a substantial value by the time you launch unless your token dumps significantly. So
for example with the current price if at like on liquidity pool it launches at maybe $600,000
of an FDV so for that 12.5% you'll have to like buy significant, like put up a significant amount of money. Wherein if you do like a regular prototype launch, I mean, you can potentially buy most
of the supply for a very reasonable price and at a great discount.
And then potentially like in the first season of virtual before Genesis launch, what projects
used to do was they used to have a script so that as soon
as they buy they distribute it across wallets so that when people do the on-chain analysis
they see that there's a bunch of folders to it so um what happens is that i mean you increase
the number of folders potentially so you'll see that people who did a regular launch a lot of
them maybe have 3 000 4 000 token holders in comparison to genesis like
a project like ours we have about 20 000 holders and i mean uh it sort of depends right loki is an
og project that did like a regular launch but they have probably 20 30 000 holders and they're one of
the most genuine teams i know for a fact that they didn't buy up the tech supply because they're also our advisors so
keep on chatting about these things so um if a dev has a significant amount of supply in multiple
wallets with a click of a button they can sell all their supply from all their wallets and
they can i mean easily exit so so that's that's the hold up for the users but yeah i mean to
answer your question people in a prototype launch can any day of the week have more supply distributed across multiple wallets or in a single wallet than a project with a Genesis launch.
And in Genesis launches, usually the teams give themselves maybe 15 to 20 percent of the supply from the liquidity pools.
Oh, sorry, from their logged 50 percent tokens.
sorry, from their logged 50% tokens.
So that's like the dev gets 20%
and then from 12.5%, that's liquid.
Maybe say like 15% if the Genesis holders
dumped after they got the fund,
like after the initial airdrop.
So it becomes hard to buy up the supply
because it's already at a significant cost.
If it probably crosses like a million in fdv
so that's that's the dynamic that people are putting
dude makes sense first off um holy though when you were saying the amount of holders of your token
and then also loki i've lost touch like i've lost like again we just get so deep in what we're doing
i haven't like paid attention to holders on these tokens and like okay maybe i've been a little focused on meme coins and i'm getting
in you know like a little trench and i'm used to seeing like okay you got 500 holders you got a
thousand two thousand i didn't realize dude that some of these tokens are sitting here with 20 30
000 holders holy that's the way to uh yeah blast out of the virtual z-call so if you want more liquidity
and more volume for your token virtual ecosystem is one option uh but but you are i mean over a
period of time you want to get out of the ecosystem and position yourself as like a more global token
so so that's going to be our goal and this is what every token should aspire for because virtual
is an agent launch pad
and they're like a bunch of set stakeholders but if you see the number of users in virtuals
if maybe like on an average in the last month maybe 2 000 new users have come wow and there
are like hundreds or thousands of tokens the probability of your token grabbing fresh liquidity
in the virtual ecosystem reduces exponentially.
So you keep your eye, like you keep one eye on the virtual ecosystem, but you still look
for avenues to expand out and try to get a chance at grabbing fresh liquidity in your
eyeballs.
This is what I'd recommend.
Yep.
Melvin, what's up?
Good morning, man.
It's good to see you.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Hey, Chef. How's it going? You guys are killing it Good morning, man. It's good to see you. Morning, morning. Hey, Chef. How's it going?
You guys are killing it.
Thanks, man. Thanks.
I still get your emails about your MindShare program.
I'm excited to see what's going on.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So we're basically, I mentioned to Huda last time as well,
we're launching our Yapper.
launching our Yapper, it's a content marketplace for Yappers.
It's a content marketplace for Yappers.
Um, so this, uh, we basically doing a two-sided marketplace.
And what we saw is Yappers are not necessarily all of them good content
creators and all good content creators are not really into Yapping.
So we thought why not just split both of them into two different roles, give a AI generated
product for content creators to basically make, um, make content with AI agents and
Yappers can access that, pay for it, access it and post it so that you can get high quality
posted so that you can get high quality content, AI content, but not slop and specific to projects
and campaigns that are already running.
And we are basically creating that marketplace and it's pretty much, we are launching that
on Monday.
So yeah.
Dude, who are you doing that through?
That's really cool.
We're not doing it through anyone.
We're just doing it with a small group of Yappers right now.
But yeah, we want to basically partner with other folks as well.
That's awesome. We launched our Yappers program and this is the problem that we are facing.
Is that even though we are incentivizing people with weekly rewards in a decent supply, that gets unlocked the first. And it's the first supply to get unlocked. And they have a decent amount in USDC rewards weekly as well.
But the quality of content is so bad.
I mean, it's so bad.
And people keep on complaining.
And even though we're working with a really good, I mean, kudos to Adam and the Songjam
team for handling things so well.
But we saw a lot of yappers come on board and such bad AI sludge.
But we saw a lot of yappers come on board and such bad AI sludge.
I mean, not contributing to your smart follower score on Kaito at all.
And it is really bad and it still is.
And we're still actively trying to figure out how to get better yappers to yap with better content.
So, I mean, I'd be super interested in your solution.
Right.
So, that's actually the same problem that we saw as well.
I mean, we also ran our yapping campaign for Bernie and we realized, hey, this is a problem.
Lots of people are.
So what we realized is that there is a huge thing that becoming a yapper has become an
aspirational thing now.
People are like, hey, yapping is actually marketing and we are basically helping projects market
and become content creators ourselves. But the issue is a lot of yappers, so-called yappers are selling this formula
to a lot of aspiring yappers that you need to keep on posting content. And second thing is you need
to basically tag anything that's relevant and basically post anything. Just be there, just be
online and just keep posting now
the problem is that these guys don't know what to post about but they really really want to be like
hey we ought to be part of this so we thought okay let's solve the problem for them right maybe
that's a better approach over here and projects want quality yapping projects don't want shitty
yapping over there so yeah we thought okay let's just solve that problem. Do we know
what, like, do we know how to solve that yet?
Do we know what can, like, help distinguish between
like the copy pasta
ish kind of shit and like good
thoughtful content? Like,
is AI good enough to detect
that? I kind of imagine it is. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So that's literally what we're doing
is that when we set the content creation
side, we are automating that with AI and basically giving good quality content.
So if you really want to, instead of sloppy apping, why not just pay 10 cents or 20 cents for a piece of content and then just post it.
If you think you can actually make money or eventually like increase your smart followers by basically posting good quality content and getting um you know
getting followers as well yeah and i think like lurky and like adam with song jammer onto something
too because there's something to like audio and video that maybe like there's a different quality
there i think it forces you to be more engaging and thoughtful and have like fresh takes so so like
when that shift is starting we we're not there yet.
And it hasn't even like, it's barely started, but there is starting to be a shift towards
finding a way to like reward that kind of content.
I don't know if it moves the needle more yet, right?
Does a, does a quality video or, or like spaces move the needle for a project more than,
than a great tweet?
I don't know.
Lurkey's so great.
Cause I think we can start finding out
so freaking cool that thing i've tagged it here in the the um spaces here because i like seeing
it like dude i don't even know what i'm going to do with it but i do love to see like first i do it
just to transcribe my shows now right i'd like to see if i mention a coin and see if i i'm good at
calling stuff early right i want i want to see if i am um but it's gonna be so interesting to talk about a project and then you can follow from that point on how it's moved and like i hope like a dream would
be to get like wallet dna stuff plugged in there right the thing we built because i want to see if
it's not just like a quick pump like just just people coming in and buying it because somebody
said and then they're out the next day like i want to see if there's shows and content that brings in
quality people like real like people who are just sticking around and there's shows and content that brings in quality people. Like people who are just sticking around
and there's something magic going on here.
Like InfoFi,
yes, tricky spot right now, but
it feels like anything. Things start
where they start and you push
them as far as you can and you find out what works
and what doesn't. And we found what's not working
in InfoFi, but it feels like we're about to take the next step
and turn it into something that's really cool,
really good.
I think that's how the space evolves, right defy also we saw this like early um you know 2020 2021 tons of high yield i.e in products came out
and and then they just flooded the market ruined everything we. We had the slump. But right now, if you look at it, DeFi is like, like world class.
I mean, traditional finance is beating traditional finance
in terms of all the mechanisms that have been automated.
And I really love the way DeFi is going, honestly.
Dude, it's getting really cool.
The tools are getting really cool.
I know, like Katz has been playing with some of these um some of these like uh ai platforms for trading like he i think he's been
using symphony and he's you know played with axelrod and i want to try the kosher capital
agent so bad um and then even like stuff like uh like i like the quant fun dude uh james i like i'm
like i'm interested in what he's doing too but like all the everything's changing here like with
quality stuff stuff that probably makes a lot of sense to work so yeah dude it's
all evolving and like perfectly timed for the market here right like how fucking cool to have
good products that are out right when the market wants to start sending so we're gonna be in a
good spot here soon you can kind of feel it the next two three months are gonna be crazy
yeah how long you think this lasts what do you
how do you guys feel about cycle and stuff and and like there's all this talk about there's no
four-year cycle anymore i'm kind of on that side too by the way but how do you guys think we're
out of a cycle do you think, Chef?
I mean, hard to predict because every time we see a pump,
then some starts another war or some tariff is being imposed somewhere.
So every time I've been really positive and pumped about something,
something has happened.
And I think there's a lot of pressure on the Fed to cut the rates. So I'm hoping that by September, we're
going to be in a really positive direction. But I mean, I can't really say anything about cycles now.
I do think that the next six months should be good. And earlier, we used to analyze a lot about,
okay, now Bitcoin is pumped.
Now it's going to rotate into ETH and ETH is going to rotate into alts.
But now with institutions moving funds at such a big capacity, I don't think it will matter a lot.
And I don't think it will be the same cycle because this, I mean,
it's like really a trillion dollar economy uh just for
bitcoin alone maybe more and it's gonna hit the same soon so it's gonna be really hard to push
the prices even with institutions coming in so i don't know how the price action will play out and
i haven't really done my math on it at the moment um but i do think the next six months should be
good but can't say how long will the cycle be. It's impossible.
I concur with that as well.
So what I'm seeing with cycles,
I'm looking at old cycles,
it's always been about there's a hype
and hype brings in a lot of new people into crypto.
And that's where the cycle actually starts booming.
And then they get disillusioned and then they leave.
That's pretty much how the cycle has been playing out.
Of course, there's an internal rotation of capital that ends up happening,
which is like Bitcoin to ETH to Alt.
And I think that dynamic didn't play out this time
and everyone has been commenting about that.
But at a macro level, I think if real products,
and there's two things.
One is institutional money coming in is actually giving a huge support because all these banks
buying Bitcoin, Ethereum, the ETFs, everything is actually brought in a lot of support.
So there's like a level below which prices won't go is what I feel.
a level below which prices won't go is what I feel. But as because of the institutional
money coming in, I think there's much more retail confidence, regulatory environment
being better helps with retail actually thinking, okay, crypto is maybe not that bad after all.
One more point to this, I think is that with the new Genius Act and with crypto being added to 401k,
and there's a lot of new stuff that's happening in the US,
which empowers so many new investors for crypto that are not able to do it in a legitimate way.
And with Coinbase also opening their DEX, sorry, importing the DEX on their website.
I think it's a big move.
And I think the government is really supporting the initiative in the US,
even though it will not be buying any more Bitcoin.
But I do think that's going to empower.
If you look in the previous cycle, I think in 16, 17, I'm not sure of the year,
before ICOs got banned in the US, that's when majority of the capital was flowing into crypto, like we see into
AI, like US retail investors investing into ICOs. And then for a period of time when the
rates got back up and the regular retail investor was not allowed to invest in ICOs.
That's when we saw the end of the cycle.
And then we saw a bunch of Blackstone events.
So I think with US investors being able to invest into tokens
in a legitimate fashion through a Coinbase DEX platform,
I think that's going to be super bullish for tokens on virtuals.
Dude, yeah.
You mentioned the Genius Act and we got the Clarity Act That's going to be super bullish for tokens on virtuals. Dude, yeah.
You mentioned the Genius Act, and we got the Clarity Act that kind of fell off the radar a little bit,
but that is supposed to pass here within the next two-ish weeks, which is really exciting, too.
And that might be bigger than the Genius Act, we'll see.
But it's interesting. So I don't trade on technicals at all, just at all.
I'm a vibe trader, like so many people.
Right.
But I'm like tapping into my vibe trading instincts here and trying to feel out like
how long the cycle goes and what keeps it moving.
I just think like this, right?
My wife is going to get into crypto for the first time because stable coins, I just think
she will, whether she, well, I don't know if this is how it's going to work.
If you're going to be able to get paid in stable coins at your job or through your bank, you can convert
some of your U S dollars to stable coins and you'll want to do it. Cause you're going to earn
way more yield than you are just parking your money, you know, in your savings account, bank
account, uh, you know, checking account, whatever. But like, what I think is going to happen is
it brings so many people in just exposure to crypto via stable coins and a small percentage
of those, those people, tiny percent of them
come doing what we're doing. They start exploring. Some of them get their hands on crypto for the
first time. Like, okay, I'm a crypto holder. Yes, it's a stable coin, but it's crypto.
I want to see, maybe I'll get my first Bitcoin, right? A little bit of that. I keep hearing
about ETH, whatever. I'm going to get a little. And point there is it's just going to grow our,
I don't know, it's casting this big net.
Some of them are going to come and start exploring.
And when we're talking about like tens of millions of people are probably coming into crypto through stable coin,
and a small percentage of them are going to come do what we do, like degen into shit coins, go get into collectibles.
And I happen to think a lot of them actually will find the AI tokens like the most appealing, right?
Like very normies, right?
People who are investing in the traditional markets. Well, again, they're going to come explore.
I think a lot of them are going to say, you can invest in AI companies, AI projects here
in crypto. I think a lot of people are going to find this and it's going to be like the first
thing they start investing in on the crypto side. So again, I think this thing just cooks for so
much longer because so many people come in through stable coins.
And we'll see.
We'll see.
It's like hopium right now.
But it just makes sense.
It just makes sense.
Again, I'll just keep using my wife as an example.
She'll have stable coins soon.
And I wonder if she'll go find something that appeals to her here on the blockchain.
She might.
She might.
I hope.
It's actually pretty cool. If you can actually treat your wallet like a bank account where you get your paycheck in, that actually will increase a lot of adoption.
Yeah.
Primarily because when we take money, let's assume we get a salary.
The first thing, you don't spend all of it, right?
You keep it in it, right?
And then you figure out how to you basically pay your credit card bill
etc everything happens whatever the bank account enables you to do you open your uh investment
account through your back you open your uh stock trading account through your bag like this is how
retail actually behaves i mean that's how they work with money. And at the end of the crypto is money, right? It's magic internet money, but still it's money. And yeah, I mean,
I believe that I think it will bring in a lot of retail money and retail interest.
Dude, hell yeah. Yeah, I got to tell you a cool story too. This is kind of random. And
then Sheph, I want to have you get into, because i know we don't have you too long but get into this this campaign you guys got
going on but okay just random ass story um i just moved my son into college yesterday he's out of
here and and just a couple days ago he had his friends over at the house just to you know kind
of hang out and say goodbye to each other um they're all like 18 years old right and one of
them suddenly has gotten like interested in crypto just just like
he sees it right there's people out there that are and this is normie starting to feel it right
they're they're feeling the energies coming over here they don't want to miss it they think they're
getting in early and they are they i think they're early enough at least to the end of this cycle if
there's a cycle but it's just cool having a young guy who was hungry. He felt that electricity.
He wanted to learn.
And he just kept getting wrecked, dude.
He was discovering coins on Yahoo Finance.
And when I heard that, I'm like, oh, no, dude.
No, no, no, no.
I'm like, they don't know.
They don't know where to come in and to learn.
They don't know how to get in safely.
I'm like, okay, dude.
First off, not Yahoo Finance.
Definitely not there.
But it was cool seeing a young guy wanting to learn and so the first person i directed him to was thread guy
i'm like that's the guy that speaks your language and he knows his stuff man he really doesn't like
there's a lot of guys i'm 44 right there's a lot of guys my age who don't like thread guy just because
you know it's just it's just weird it's just weird i don't know to some people maybe it's
off-putting i love fucking love ThreadGuy.
Again, he speaks the crypto language.
He's very knowledgeable.
He obviously has got all these connections.
And he speaks the Zoomer language.
So, anyway, direct this kid to ThreadGuy.
And how fucking cool that, like, the very next day, everything empty is on the show.
And I'm like, there it is.
It's right there.
Like, these young guys are going to come in and they're going to find ThreadGuy.
That should be the first thing they find, honestly. It would be good for them. And it's where I'm going there it is it's right there like these young guys are gonna come in and they're gonna find thread guy that should be the first thing they find honestly that it would be good
for them and it's where I'm gonna direct them but they find him and then they get exposure to
something like virtuals because of that platform right there so fucking cool and by the way like
everything empty he cooked he cooked he's such a smart dude um yeah I just couldn't be more bullish
on like virtuals but also like on the space and the
people coming in and just them being greeted by like some good people here right some like good
characters in the space so i don't know man pretty i'm pretty optimistic about what's coming here
um and then real quick random point shit did i lose it we had a reply on the spaces here oh from alien cat rider by the
way awesome fucking name i love it uh saying people hate yapping it clogs up the feed uh let's
broke people get a hold of tokens that they just dump stopped yapping months ago spent all that
time researching i love that like i agree with the take like entirely people hate it look i don't
tweet a lot and when i tweet it's flooded with stuff you know somebody just threw in chat gpt and copied the answer it's super annoying it's
super annoying like it's really not fun the tweeting game right now so yes it is broken um
i i still would argue it's worth doing because there is money to be made doing it and if you
can separate from those guys alien if you can get good at tweeting and giving those super insightful takes,
I think it's worth it. Look at ICO Beast and what he's done. There's a career you can have out of
it. And I think, like a lot of people say, companies are going to pay a lot of money to
hire those great yappers. And I hate to even call them a yapper, right? They're going to pay a lot
of money to hire those great marketers and those guys who know how to get attention, but via quality.
So I would say Alien, you're not wrong for skipping it and just spending the time researching.
You'll probably trade better because of it, right?
But I wouldn't write it off yet because I think it's going to change.
I hope what we're doing with Arbus too, we've integrated our wallet DNA in the Arbus Church
platform, which I think fixes the issue he's saying, right?
Where people get tokens and they dump. Well, this is now going to give you multipliers if you're part of that
project and you're a great holder. If you're not like an extractor of that token, will you get
like up to double rewards? So there's something there I think Arbus is cooking that's different
that might fix some of this thing. And man, if we can get to the point where we put all this
together, Lurkey plus Arbus plus song jam,
plus like, right.
There's going to be a super platform here or somebody is just going to
integrate all these features and it's common.
The best version of info five is coming.
So stay plugged in.
I'll say that at least alien.
Uh, I, I wouldn't write it off yet.
Um, let's see, by the way, guys, anybody can come up still, uh, chef.
What's the, I don't know if you can share.
I think that you wanted to come share,
but you're cooking something out there
that I think is super interesting.
Would love you to share it.
I don't want to be again like Tom Holland
and give out all the details before the movie is out.
That's alpha.
That was awesome, dude.
I mean, erring on the side of caution, I'd say, I mean, imagine just Tinder for tokens.
As you mentioned that your son's friend is finding tokens on Yahoo Finance.
And basically, there's no verification on the tokens that he's finding.
It just could be
like maybe yahoo finance i mean you know all these big organizations like polka dot and cardano and
all these publish a bunch of blogs in yahoo finance and you get a pr on yahoo finance for
50 in this day and age so i mean it's it's really no legitimacy to that so basically you want to
find the right tokens that are relevant that are trending and you want to do it on base because that's where all the users are actually coming on chain at the moment. So
we're coming up with a mini app where you can find the right tokens and you can swipe
right to them or you can swipe left to them on the basis of certain information that we
plug into the cards. So the interface is going to be pretty much similar to a dating app because we wanted to make this for people the age of your son. And we wanted them to connect with this application.
There's a bunch of cool things coming out on there. There's going to be like, you can
win these cards and we have a stag lineup. To just launch the campaign, we finalized 10 cards or tokens from the virtual Zico that should be swiped hot.
But people can swipe them not.
And then after that, I mean, it's just going to be trending tokens on a day-to-day basis.
And that's where our points are going to come into play.
And there's going to be rewards and NFTs and there's a bunch of stuff involved.
So, I mean, you'll see the sort of promo video next week and then the app's also going to launch
sometime next week um so yeah dude i didn't i didn't realize it was that big i didn't like
i didn't understand the scope of it i thought it was kind of like an info fi kind of campaign. I didn't realize it's a whole other
like, like pillar. Holy shit.
I'll hit you up. I'll hit you up. I like my first startup in 2021
was Sahi coin. We were literally building something very similar
to this.
Sorry?
Yeah, it was working with us. Yes, Coin Yathart was working with us yes yes yes
so there's a lot of learnings
I have
and what did not work
back then
I would love to
basically share
those things with you
so that you don't make
the same mistakes
that we made
we still have a couple of days
we can still learn from you
okay
I'll definitely share
all those things with you
I still think
there's potential in it
our execution
was a bit we were also first time going into the space so we didn't really know it was an open field
for us but would love to see you succeed in that thesis. It's a thesis that I'm super bullish about.
Yeah. And send you like a testing link. I mean I'm either just going to share it with the Swarm
team because they're involved somehow but we'll come to their involvement maybe closer to the launch.
Yep.
Chef, you guys, you just gotta say, you guys are cooking on another level. Like, I don't know
how anybody can keep up. You're really, like, it's really impressive what you guys are doing.
We have a bunch of stuff coming up. Trust me. I spent a whole night in one of their,
in Bangalore during the last India blockchain week.
And we recorded a podcast and stuff over there
while we were partying.
Dude, I hope that never comes out.
It's sort of a funny story where,
like, we ran out of,
so it was a party and it was like a low-key really really like 15-20
people in the outskirts of a place then nobody knew it was like we were planning a raid but it
didn't sort of happen and then all these AI sort of builders gathered in Bangalore during ETH India
so it was really cool and everybody was like super hungover and drunk.
And then we recorded something that should never see the light of day.
I must say that.
I think it was a good podcast.
We just literally put it out there.
Yeah, from the heart.
All the shit that was happening.
Yeah, all the bad things in our lives as people within crypto.
It was fun.
Amazing.
Dude, I'm going to peek at the market real quick.
You guys want to hear where we're at,
how tokens are looking?
You curious?
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Market cap.
Dude, real nice, actually.
We popped all of a sudden in the past two days.
Right now, $13.34 billion market cap
for these AI, beautiful crypto tokens.
Dude, okay.
So I'm doing this over on cookie.fun.
The top agent token is a token called USDT.
It's from Zenni.io.
Have you guys heard of that?
Dude, I didn't either.
And this popped up on the leaderboard starting last week.
It was either, I don't know if it was a new TGE or if it was just like a token that was out there that got integrated or you
know onboarded on cookie that happened like months back with like fed right we went from
i don't know whatever our market cap was and all of a sudden the next day it jumped by 2 billion
but it's because they they again integrated that token but which which token is this i'm sorry usd this one is usdt usdt 1.6 billion it's not tether it sounds like tether
but um but it's uh yeah 1.6 billion dollar market cap on this thing yeah from zenny
underscore io is their handle on x um but now like fart coins not our leader at least in the
agents category and i kind of on cookie i kind question the categories, because it's weird to call
Fartcoin an agent token at this point.
It's kind of transcended.
It's just a pure meme coin at this point.
But, it is what it is.
I think Rekt is a better agent,
like a more traditional agent token.
But, you know,
it is what it is. But yeah, there's Rekt behind Fartcoin,
IRC uh and then
toshi there's your top five i am still really dying to find out what happened to ket right
ket was that agent over on um uh what was avalanche and that thing was sitting at like a 300 mil market
cap forever and suddenly in the past like two-ish week down to 144 mil like something must have
happened there because it just it just kind of plummeted and it has not recovered but um so those are looking pretty decent what usually happens is that uh when
so there's this like two sort of things that happen first is an experiment like freesia ai or
ai xbt that it goes viral organically uh because like it's something new it's something innovative
and people in crypto bet on something visionary and. And then there's a second type of token where you have
a cabal or you have some insiders and then they put their own liquidity to pump it. But once it's
pumped to a certain extent and it's made the headlines, they want to exit with their money.
So I'm assuming that the one that you're talking about on Avalanche is something similar to that.
The second case happened because there's nothing, I mean, I don't think it was like a breakthrough innovation or an experiment that just got really popular.
I think it's one of the very first tokens, like agent tokens on Avalanche because of which it sort of got pumped.
But I am assuming, like this is just my assumption from the liquidity patents that I saw, that
there were some insiders and as soon as they took their bags home, they took them down.
Ah, okay.
Yep, that would make sense.
That would make a ton of sense.
Because I could like, look, it being priced where it's at now to me makes more sense.
I couldn't understand why it was at 300.
That's the part I couldn't wrap my head around.
So no, that makes sense.
It's, you know, ecosystem rallies behind it, little, you know, insider Kabali thing over on Aval head around so no that makes sense it's you know ecosystem rallies behind it little you know insider cabali thing over on avalanche yeah totally makes sense um
who did i bring up hang on i just brought somebody up here uh uh uh yes yes i d um request back up if
you want to come up i don't know if it worked or not but you're welcome to come back up
uh and by the way it's good to see you guys.
Alizar, Hoods, great to see you, brother.
Polygon, Ingenuity, a lot of familiar faces.
Great to see you guys.
Let's see what else is cooking here.
Infrastructure, it's FET, Virtual, DCAI, IoT, XAN, Alts.
And then in DeFi, which this is where I say, I say every stream, I'm like, this is where I expect to see the most disruption is in the DeFi tools.
Because our top one here, it's Cortex 200 mil, but you start coming down to like the two, three, four slot, you're barely at 100 mil market caps.
And I'm like, these DeFi platforms are going to change DeFi.
When they start actually making money, and I think some of them are, like the kosher capital ones are making money.
start actually making money, and I think some of them are, like the kosher capital ones are making
money. When they start making you money where you don't have to pay attention, you don't have to
trade, you just kind of check up on your agent and see how it's doing. Or even if it's not an agent,
it's a platform that lets you do leverage trades easier. In a way, maybe you don't know how,
I don't know how. But when that happens and there's easy money to be made via these things,
market caps are going to be ridiculous.
And if I look at the number five spot, it's something like Griffin.
It's a 40 mil market cap.
We know what these market caps get to when things get silly and silly season is coming.
And so, yeah, again, I'm watching for specifically that DFAI sector to look very different over the next few months.
I can't wait.
I don't know what it will be, but it's going to look different well there's some technology yeah i'm super bullish i'm super
bullish on mammal uh in that in that specific region i mean you just put your money in and you
wait for it to grow and uh that's that's one and then similar on the similar tangent each by or
it i don't know how it's pronounced. Those guys are great.
I mean, the team's also super, super responsive and great.
And I mean, we're working very hard behind the scenes.
And same for MAMO.
I mean, all of these guys are in Cope.
And in terms of DEFAI, if you want to see like a lot of innovation, BSC is sort of the
place to be.
They've got a bunch of great agents, which we don't realize
because I'm mostly on base and exploring stuff on base. The BSC ecosystem has one of the most
vibrant Def AI ecosystem. Maybe the tokens are not- Oh, wow. Yeah, maybe, I mean, there's,
maybe there's not as much as liquidity as there is on base for Def AI because you've got Banker,
you've got MAMO, you've got a bunch of other tokens, or maybe on Solana, but BSC ecosystem
has some really, really cool agents on them.
Maneki is on BSC.
They're doing some stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
Those guys are great.
Actually, there's some stuff on DeafAI
on the technology side that's coming up.
It's that Eigen
is actually coming up with this
deterministic AI stuff.
Like one of the problems with AI is that every, if you give an input, it's not necessary
that you get the same output every time.
And eigen is kind of solving that problem is that when you give an input, you definitely
will get the same output if you do it multiple number of times.
And that's actually very important especially
when it comes to trading and these kind of use cases because you want to be sure that a certain
action is taken given a certain input this is eigenlayer is that what is that what it is yeah
so anyone who's integrating the eigen layer onto their onto the defai agents and stuff
i would be super bullish on that.
So how does this work?
Because we used to build on Igen.
So do you have to build an AVS client for the Defi agent?
And then you can just deploy it on Igen cloud now.
So basically they have an API endpoint, which is open AI compliance.
So you basically can get a response with the way you get an open AI, but
with open source models, of course, But you can run your own open source models
or on EigenCloud and get the same output.
Right, so basically they're verifying
is the output coherent with whatever the input was.
Exactly, the input is there and it's deterministic
to make sure that if you give a certain input,
an output is kind of what you're expecting it to be
based on the input parameters that you've given.
Currently, Generative AI just gives you anything, right?
Yeah, that's interesting because when we were building on IGN, the problem that we faced
was how the economics of things are going to work because anybody integrating into their stack
actually has to incentivize these operators that host these AVSs basically
there are oh yeah I think they've done away with all that it was really really difficult to do
that yeah we also wanted to do verification kind of a thing with our content creation stuff as well
to make sure a certain number of compute was used. We are just doing some proof of work
related stuff over there. Just too technical
stuff but
that's kind of
why we actually were speaking to them as well.
That's super cool man.
I mean I didn't clear my eyes they've actually
progressed this far in terms
of AI. I just thought
they were still doing the AVS bit because
that didn't work out well for
us and I know a bunch of teams.
I mean, it just wasn't coming out to be feasible that huge, huge operators who stake the REIT
don't actually get any returns for staking the REIT because E3PY is not that great.
And the additional incentivization through the projects token was also not happening
because of the amount of verification that was required. the additional incentivization through the projects token was also not happening because
of the amount of verification that was required.
It was not meeting up to what the user would pay for it.
Right.
Yeah, the cost was the main reason.
It's what they said.
Yes, Adi.
I'm probably saying that wrong.
I'm sure I am.
But yeah, dude, welcome.
What's up?
Hello. Good things from you all. I'm sending I am. But yeah, dude, welcome. What's up? Hello. Good. Thanks from you all.
I'm sending regards and huge blessings to you all.
Have a blessing Friday.
My name is Jayaswadi.
I'm from Africa, Gambia.
I'm here on this place.
But I got on my family.
We are not really doing okay.
We are so much going through the colleges.
And then I jumped into
the space. I had people been
saying big words that
I didn't understand.
So I was seeking
help, but I didn't know how can I really
have someone who will help me.
So I can
only partially hear what you're saying.
There's just so much background noise.
That question, whatever it was, might be better if you DM me me if you're like looking for some help with whatever i just heard
like looking for help with something unless you guys heard heard melbourne or chef did you guys
catch the question no i didn't yeah not really well so dude either try again but again there's
so much background noise you can dm me dude i'm always around for questions and open to help or
whatever uh huda underscore idiots my uh my uh handle on x d always around for questions and open to help or whatever. Huda underscore idiots, my handle on X.
DM me, dude.
I'd love to help answer whatever question you got there.
Okay.
Thank you so much for being so nice to me right now and giving me your eyes in order to me to speak.
But I was saying that I don't want to speak to my family because life is really not doing good for us out here in Gambia. I can hear you a little better now.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Please, you all have to pray for us here because we are going through massive, massive trouble.
In our presidency, they are not really doing good to help us
back. We are really seeking for help
to get our hands met.
I got you. I got you. Dude, DM
me. Send me a DM. Absolutely.
And prayers for you guys, and we'll thank you
for sure, but send me a DM, okay?
Okay, I will send you a DM
right now. Thank you so much for being so nice
to me. Of course, dude.
Of course, dude. Be safe, be well,
and send me a message.
I just did.
Awesome. Thank you, brother.
Thank you so much.
Question back for Chef Melbourne.
Okay.
I've mentioned this a few times.
I'm trying to kick myself in the ass and get this
other type of content thing going.
It's a different kind of space
that I think the community wants.
And it's not focused on tokens, really.
It's not focused on any one project.
It's talking about the future here,
talking about what the world looks like in five years.
It's like the UBI conversation.
It's like, what does this look like
when so many jobs are replaced?
And there'll be new jobs, right? Is that a conversation that interests you guys at all and
you have like thoughts on that if i did a space you'd want to join and be a part of that well
yeah i will full thesis on this okay i can share that with you prior yeah okay it's funny dude
because everybody i've asked is like oh yeah we want to talk because again it's it's outside of
our like normal topics right it's different it's fresh because everybody I've asked is like, oh, yeah, we want to talk. Because, again, it's outside of our normal topics, right?
It's different.
It's fresh.
But the people working in it should be having that conversation publicly.
Look, I don't know if normies are worried quite yet about how weird things are going to get.
But shit, it's going to get weird.
Normies are worried.
I mean, the amount of layoffs that are happening.
Fresh college grads are not able to find jobs.
Like they're already feeling it is what I feel.
And the conversation is already in the ether.
It's just that people are not openly talking about it because people are kind
of also feeling scared. They're feeling insecure. Hey,
what is our economic future going to look like um how is this evolving right i think
that that's the thing is that we can discuss problems but i actually want to discuss solutions
yeah that'll be almost um well that'll be the fun part of the show it's showing the problem
it's talking through what those solutions might be and when all this might be coming.
Dude, it's coming.
It's coming so quick.
And I'm a tech nerd, so it's exciting to me.
And I think if you're in crypto, you're going to be a little safer.
A little safer from that stuff, I think.
As long as you're staying ahead.
As long as you're staying ahead and using the tech and all these so many things.
But it's going to get weird out there, man.
It's going to get very strange.
And like, okay, I always hear like five-ish years off. many things but it's gonna get weird out there man it's gonna get very strange and like okay i
always hear like five-ish years off do you think that's an appropriate time frame where where ai
makes a real impact on like the jobs uh market like the economy too yep crazy shit i think i
think my personal take on this is i'm just you know in a few words what my personal take on this and just you know in a few words what my personal take on this is that people graduate from college thinking here we'll get a job I
think though that whole process of going to college trying to get a job
because someone wants you to do the work that they don't themselves want to do
that kind of flow is gonna get disrupted completely and people are just gonna be
net asset owners in the sense think about it
this way that all we need to all think about how we can own certain assets on the internet like ai
agents that work for us and deliver output that someone else wants and basically we all of them
need to be entrepreneurs in some ways what i feel and that that's how I see a positive way in which we can actually all of us
come out of it is have internet-based income earning assets that can basically plug into the
economy, do the work that needs to be done, and you profit off of it. What does that look like?
I'm trying to even visualize it.
I'm thinking about it this way.
I have like 10 agents.
I have an agent for copywriting.
I have an agent for content creation.
I have an agent for doing some kind of analysis.
And if you basically need that skill from me,
instead of paying me a salary,
you're saying, hey, I will take the services of your agent to do it or i can
package all of the services as a product and basically sell it to you instead of you paying
me for my time to sit in an office and do some work i'm basically saying that hey i'm already
doing all of this with ai i'm packaging this into like ai agents but with my unique expertise built into it and then i sell that that as a service to
you dude super interesting okay well i dig that that would fit right in that conversation if we
get a series of these kind of things going any other topics that would stand out as like just
these big upcoming problems that need solutions that maybe we have solutions for coming too but
like i so i've got like the, again, the jobs issue,
UBI kind of ties into that.
So that's one show, I think.
And I have a separate one about companions, AI companions,
which I think is fascinating and I can't wait for it.
And I will have an AI companion.
I already do in a way, right?
I love that.
But I think there's like, there's a part of that that's scary too.
So I think that's a whole other conversation.
Anything else like that that you guys think
would be just super spicy and fun to talk through?
I'd say privacy.
There's this...
Sorry.
I have this bad habit of hogging the mic.
That's what spaces are for, man.
Yes, that's okay.
I think privacy would be a good way to go about it
because Sam Ortman recently said that anything you type into that search bar, yes that's okay i think privacy would be a good way to go about it because
sam altman recently said that anything you you type into that search bar is not private so gpt
is absorbing that information so every time you're talking to any agent to get your stuff done
and you probably share that okay i have this disease i have cancer. And then what are the solutions?
Or like there's this pimple on my shoulder that looks like a cancer knot.
Do you think it could be a tumor or it could be a cyst
or what could it be?
Could it be sarcoma, right?
So all this sort of information will now be accessible
to people at OpenAI or Google or whatever agent company
that you're using or utilizing in the future.
So I feel privacy is going to be a huge thing.
And I think that's something that people, especially in India,
or people especially that are not in a tier one situation are very, very scared of.
And also, I mean, I'm personally scared of and also I mean I'm personally scared of this I genuinely feel that there is there is
no semblance of how this is going to be managed or should I just accept the fact that my privacy
is going to be breached over and over again yeah people are going to just take my data
and without monetizing it they're just going to use it to make their models
better. I mean, because that's the major crunch that these organizations are having. How do
we get past that generic data that we already have accumulated from scraping? How do we
get that data around what a doctor or a lawyer firsthand can provide their experiences from?
So if a doctor is, example asking gpt that okay
this is the diagnosis how can i improve this and the doctor feeds all that information into gpt
gpt is automatically going to use that experience to train itself which is which is scary because
you don't know i mean the next time you see uh something that you mentioned pops out to another user as a result
so i think privacy is one thing that i'd be interested to learn more about dude it's
interesting too because i've already accepted that you know privacy gone i shouldn't have
i did that too early almost like a dox too early on you know in crypto and with doing content stuff
like i kind of wish I didn't dox.
And I think I'm doing the same thing, making a mistake that I'm very open with ChatGPT.
I tell it everything.
And I have voice chats every day, sometimes hours and everything. And I will take pictures of things and ask questions about it.
And I gave it a tour of my house.
You know, you can flip the camera on and I did like the live video with it.
And I was just showing around, hey, here's my kitchen.
Here's my cats. I was trying to see if I i could get chat gpt to know which of my cats is
which like by name and she does it it does it like which i think is cool but i've already given up the
privacy thing and i i think i fucked up i don't think i should have done it man but um no that
would be a that would be a great uh chat too Again, like a privacy data focus show.
I dig it.
I dig it,
dude.
All right.
We're probably,
okay.
This is gonna be interesting.
Just a heads up for people.
The spaces here is going to shift topics here in just like two minutes.
So I may step away for a quick break.
You guys are welcome to keep chatting,
but in like two minutes,
three minutes,
I've got the sage team coming on. And i can't i can't wait talking educational acp cluster they
got their genesis launch coming next wednesday i believe it's going to be it's going to be the
hottest genesis launch we've seen in a while like i wonder if we're back to like where like where
we were with like the solace kind of launch or iris i don't know if we're quite there yet but
either way like this is gonna be a big one so we got them coming on just a couple minutes
um and there will be a video stream for this too guys so you can go over to the swarm underscore ai
account uh and the video stream there and it's also going to be on youtube on the crypto slam
account so heads up if you want to watch it go there if you want to just tune in and listen
you can do it right here in the spaces because i'll keep the spaces running um so i'm gonna step away for a minute any final thoughts
from you guys like again i'll leave this open you guys can still chat i mean i gotta move out too i
was holding out till the sage team came on but it was great to be here and chat with you uh it's
obviously always exciting to talk with more key stakeholders of the virtual ecosystem i get to
learn a lot whenever i'm on any of the spaces in virtuals people talk about new things people talk
about the future which is not the case when you go to like a logo x logo partnership space where
you talk about your own projects uh so it's it's really exciting to be here and the market's
pumping and there are exciting times we were wishing for this time to come
since the past six to eight months
and now it's here.
So I think everybody should lock in.
Beautiful things coming.
Super pumped up.
Hell yeah, I'm with you boys.
Yeah, exciting shit coming.
Exciting stuff coming.
All right then, we'll wrap here again.
Spaces is not closing. Space is just going to go silent for a minute here and then we'll wrap here again. Spaces is not closing space.
It's just going to go silent for a minute here.
And then we'll be back in a minute with freaking Sage.
I can't wait.
Oh my goodness.
Hi guys.
We'll see you in just a minute here and appreciate you guys.
Melbourne and chef for coming and chatting.
And again,
every Friday we'll do the pre-show show here on spaces.
So the community and,
you know,
builders can vibe together.
All right,
guys,
I'll see you on the other side here with
the Sage stream.
Goodbye.
Bye-bye. See you there. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. uh man this is gonna be a cool show here uh live with the boys from sage do i should
is it sage or sage to learn like what's the like official name oh i got you muted hang
on i'm sorry hang on let me unmute boom boom. There we go. What's up? All right.
What's going on? Welcome to the show, guys.
Sage.
Got it. Okay, cool.
uh structure all that stuff but first up again welcome this i think unless i missed it is your
Ooh, and that's something I think we'll get into as well, like background companies, structure, all that stuff. But first off, again, welcome.
first like spaces talking about the project is it or have i missed one oh hell yeah
Must, must.
Yeah, you got to save some of the spice for the AMA there, which is pretty darn cool.
Let's kick it off with maybe an introduction.
If you want to give a quick intro, who you are, and maybe a quick little blurb about
your backgrounds.
Okay. and maybe a quick little blurb about your backgrounds. No, there's a little something off
yeah yeah you can even try killing the video maybe that helps but it does
like i hear you at least that's all that matters
i think so i hear you
yeah I got an idea.
I got an idea here.
Why don't you try this?
Why don't you hop over on the spaces side?
Maybe it'll work better over there.
Do you want to give that a shot?
Okay. Because everybody will hear you over there and you'll hear everybody here.
But give that a shot. If you go over to my account, it's Huda underscore idiot.
There's a spaces there. If you just join, did he already pop out? Okay. He can just request and we'll hear him through there. So that works. That works. Any of you guys want to kick it off
while we're waiting for him? And by the way, you guys all here carbon good morning bunny good morning china gms um who who
who gravity gms uh alazar jj good morning i'm sure we got cats on the way here soon every dude
everybody's hyped for this by the way everybody's itching to hear about uh sage because i man you're
you're the ones that send us into season three here. I think so. Yay.
Perfect.
Perfect. Thank you. So Jim just joined our team. We have a team of about nine people. Jim just joined our team to run ecosystem and partnerships. So a lot of the other virtual teams in ECO, you'll be hearing
from Jim. He'll be kind of reaching out and coordinating things. But yeah, before we get into it, so my name is
Wes. I'm a co-founder and COO, Drew, who I think is on our spaces. The space is now,
he'll intro himself in a minute, is our CEO. A bit of my background, I've been in crypto for
quite some time. I used to run like a dev shop. We did like software and application development
and built some really early DeFi analytics software that I sold to this company called Valkyrie.
So had an exit there, had to work there for a year after that, built their full on-chain infrastructure.
And then I launched Juice Finance, which was a pretty successful company in the Blast Eco.
We hit half a billion of TVL.
You know, to be honest, I think this thing would have been worth billions of dollars,
but the whole Blast ecosystem kind of fell apart. The Blast ECO had like a 98% drawdown.
So you kind of do your best. And we did become like the top DeFi app in the ecosystem.
We ran a really strong playbook of bringing it to market, partnerships, et cetera. But sometimes
the forces around you
are just a little bit too powerful. Nothing really survived that blast drawdown.
So after I sold the company and then did a really successful one as well, and I've also done a bunch
of work in the Bitcoin space, wanted to really get deep into AI. I'm really technical, but I've
never worked in AI and ML. Drew, who's our co and CEO has been AI and AI and ML for 15 years.
He's also built some really other successful AI companies.
But before we get into Sage, Drew, are you there now?
You want to kind of intro yourself?
Yeah.
It should be over here on space.
Yeah, we got you.
Good shit.
All right, let's go.
Is the audio better?
Way better.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah. I don't know what that was. Yeah so you know my name is andrew smith i'm co-founder of formation and as wes kind
of alluded to most of my career has been spent as machine learning and ai engineer uh you know prior
to going you know full-time in web 3 and in crypto uh I built a data as a service company that was powered by AI.
Sort of started out as traditional natural language processing and token processing.
And then, you know, in 2018, when the BERT models were dropped, which, you know, if you're a close
follower of the AI movement, BERT was sort of the precursor to GPT
and some of the more modern large language transformers.
We switched all of our technology over to BERT.
We had over 90% accuracy in gathering and structuring data
and basically built a really,
really successful company around that.
While I was there, it hit
over 17 million in ARR. And then in 2020, I stepped aside, mostly personal reasons.
But my co-founder there is still running that company. It's still going well. Still
on some equity in it. Still on the board there. Haven't exited quite yet, but it's a really,
really successful business. And moved over here to start building Formation.
And originally Formation was sort of a pure play decentralized compute product.
But, you know, when DeepSeek dropped, it really kind of changed everything.
You know, if you think back way back to sort of November of last year, you know, just under a year ago, there really weren't top-notch, high-quality open source models.
So, you know, if you wanted to really accomplish something in AI, you kind of needed to use the closed source models as really anthropic and GPT.
anthropic and and gpt um you know deep seek really changed that you had you know open source
You know, DeepSeek really changed that.
reasoning models that were large uh that had large context windows and it really just kind
of changed the game and opened up opportunities uh for us to build something that i think is
really unique and we'll dig into more throughout the course of this stream
there we go beautiful stuff you got very accomplished guys like, right, have done
some serious work here in the space and it sounds like outside. So super impressive.
Yeah, we also have a stack team. Aside from that, we have me and Drew are technical. Plus we have
four other very, very senior devs, really, really accredited from really, really good universities
have been part of really, really solid projects. We have ecosystem lead, we have multiple community
managers plus a discord team. So really, we're at about nine people right now in squad.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, it's like, you know, okay, I say this most of our streams, when you hear the
teams talk, it's why it's important that teams come on a show and people get to meet you.
Right.
Like you hear that there's on some of these teams,
a different kind of quality.
And those are the teams I'm betting on.
I'm betting on guys who can build,
have like a history of being able to do it.
You can hear how competent they are and you can bet on those guys.
Right.
Because there's,
there's look,
there's a lot,
right.
There's enough of them,
but there's also a lot that are not.
and so
it's great for people to get to see you and meet you and hear that background um it's gonna get
spicy um yeah you know and just we get we definitely appreciate that we're also backed
by jump trading republic and big brain a little hyper rhythm and a bunch of other really um you
know strong partners in the space um so excited to kind of have the right backing
and the right team to go to market.
Well, man, you're about to wipe out
all of the points in circulation next week.
I think that's kind of obvious already.
So looking forward to that.
Look, okay.
I just wanna add to that, Hudo.
It's like, it's really, really easy these days
to just go ahead and launch a token.
But like having a actual product that drives value for that token long term, as we've seen throughout
the past, not just in the AI space or the AI times crypto space, but in crypto in general,
it's much more difficult to build a high quality product that drives value for that token. And so,
you know, one of the things that we really, really care about is delivering a really high
quality product that even people that are not that familiar with virtuals, people that are not
that familiar with, you know, the crypto times AI space will find the product and will really,
really like it.
I believe it.
It's going to happen.
Next week's going to get pretty incredible.
We don't know much about Sage yet, right? I think we got the Genesis Launchpad placeholder here,
and it's Educational ACP, the lead of that,
that instantly everyone's like,
okay, we've got something serious here um yeah so i think i'm happy to really dive into the details of what
sage is and we have a pretty heavy content calendar that we start rolling out um probably
starting tomorrow and then every day till till the launch um we're kind of just been like a lot
a lot of moving parts i think before we get into sage it's a good idea to just like discuss what formation is um and kind of where sage came from
um does that sound good yeah that's great cool so uh formation group form the fog right there
um on the stage logo right there uh form the fog um and that's kind of like our our slogan so
form the fog was um initially developed to be kind of like decentralized
compute infrastructure. And we're building that. But once DeepSeat came out and a lot of these
open source LLMs came out, we realized that we had a stack that could be used instead of
decentralized compute for model optimization, inference optimization, GPU optimization, et cetera.
And we really went full pivot
to where we own our own GPUs,
full inference and GPU optimization,
fine-tuned models, full deployment and hosting of models.
So it's a whole middleware and hardware stack
fully that we have complete control of.
And as we were kind of going to market, we thought,
you know, the best thing to do would be like to like launch an agent from us first to showcase
really what we're capable of. And, you know, when we started talking about it, Andrew, his mom's a
teacher, he's our CEO. A bunch of us have kids on the team. And all of our kids over summer,
literally everyone, everyone's obsessed with AI
at our company, obviously. And all of us have our kids on AI in AI education. And they're not
learning AI. They're like, you know, they're all different ages, but they're all using AI to learn
math, to learn reading, to learn science, to learn something, right? We literally all of us have
their kids. And what we all noticed, every single one of us, was that when we put our kids on AI courses instead of tutors or traditional school or reading books, their pace of learning just took off tremendously.
And it was honestly all of us noticed the same thing at the same time.
It was honestly all of us noticed the same thing at the same time.
It was unbelievable.
It was unbelievable.
And we realized there was just about to be a massive disruption in the $380 billion online EDU space.
So with that being said, we're like, you know what?
A few of us have relatives and parents that are teachers.
We all have a bunch of us have kids, all of them in AI courses.
We're all super passionate of it.
This is a perfect thing to develop.
And we just really started shifting all of our research sources, develop the best possible agents in the EDU space because we thought it was just like absolutely ripe for disruption.
We started building it substantially before we started building talking to virtuals.
Initially, we thought it would kind of be like a bit of a standalone app.
We weren't really sure where we would launch it.
We just were just super passionate about building a really, really strong agentic disruption to learning.
And to kind of get into like how Sage works, really, really interesting versus like the standard things you might find at like Udemy or something like that.
How Sage works is the goal
of sage is for you to be able to learn any subject um and how it works you interact with sage you
start talking to sage you tell it what you want to learn and sage tries to get a good idea of what
you want to learn and why you want to learn it so what level you're on why you want to learn it is
a professional is it casual is there a goal um and then once you once it has an idea of what you want to learn it. So what level you're on, why you want to learn it as a professional, as a casual, as a goal. And then once you, once it has an idea of what you want to learn and why
you want to learn, it does deep research on any subject and it builds custom curriculum and
interactive tests and modules on every, on any subject you want. Right. And when it builds it,
what's interesting is it's not building the entire course structure all at once.
It's building module at a time.
And then as you start doing your interactive courses and your tests and your activities, it understands where you might need more help, what you might want to change for the future, and continues to layer on module over module over module.
So it's completely custom.
Anybody's pace, anybody's course, any subject, you can kind of tweak as you learn. And we think it's a much better way of learning than anything out there right now.
Beyond making everything super custom, you also, every single course that you create,
if you would like, you could save, and then you could offer for other people to take, right?
So on top of being able to learn anything, create custom interactive modules on any activity,
when, if people really want to take the time to put really, really good courses together,
they can then start monetizing those courses, right? So we think
this goes far beyond an education platform, and it turns into like a creator platform and a creator
economy as well, where people can then monetize their courses by letting other people take them,
encouraging them to take them. And then as other people modify those courses, it makes a fork of
each course, right? Because each course is like,
it's not like Udemy where it's a straight line. Everything is malleable, right? Everything,
if you need more help in a certain direction, you can build another module on top of it.
And it kind of creates like forks on forks of courses for people to continue to like monetize,
share, and hopefully revolutionize learning globally. But we have massive plans for this.
revolutionize learning globally.
But we have massive plans for this.
We think this can be
tens if not larger
millions of dollars of ARR
on this thing.
And we're putting a ton of resources
and budget behind taking this thing to market.
This is wild.
So I have,
education is in our family to a degree too.
My brother has worked in academia for decades at this point.
He's the Dean of Research at FSU.
And he's always been looking at blockchain for how that can power up and leveling up
the experience there.
And man, I always thought how cool education would be in a decentralized structure just
to get people who don't have the opportunity to go to a good school. It can get them there. The fact that it's online
and maybe there's some like anonymous, you know, nature to it too. Again, just levels the playing
field and that I'm excited for. I didn't even think of like the agentic part of it though. I
didn't see a few years back when I was thinking of this stuff that agents were going to really
power this thing too. So it was, it was, we agree. It was like Eureka moment.
We just happened to sometimes,
you know, luck and timing,
it just happened to be summer,
the beginning of summer when we were all building this
and all of our kids were taking these courses
and we were seeing how it was affecting.
I think sometimes you work really hard
and then sometimes timing and luck
just really falls into your lap.
So obviously we're rolling everything out in stages.
I think that once we saw what this could be and what resources, we started figuring out like,
where are we going to launch this thing? And that's really where virtual is coming. I've been
in a lot of the team is very web three native, and I've been in the virtuals ecosystem for multiple seasons as well
um a pretty big holder of different coins at different times um so i'm sure yield a lot that's
my uh account right there and we talked to a few ecosystems actually we talked to a few chains
um we considered launching it outside of any ecosystem as
well um just because we have enough of a backing and enough of a reputation um formation already
has like 40 000 followers and we have a lot of people kind of like waiting for that to come out
um but you know i just we have this belief that virtuals has this super like narrow vision, not narrow, but just like really aligned
vision where they believe that they want to continue to push forward in like the agentic
economy. And maybe that turns into robotics and things like that. But you talk to a lot of these
like blockchains, these L1s or L2s that want a project like ours, and they're just all over the
place. You know, they're not exactly sure what they want to be or why they want to be it. And you talk to some of the other ecosystems, even in their launch pads, and they're just all over the place. You know, they're not exactly sure what they want to be or why they want to be it.
And you talk to some of the other ecosystems, even in their launch pads, and they're not really sure like where they'll be long term.
But when you talk to the virtuals team and you talk to everyone in the community, they're just so laser focused on building the strongest agentic economy out there.
And we think that everything we're building at Formation,
where we don't want to get into tokenization, right?
We want to get into middleware and launching
and partnering with companies like virtuals.
You know, we just want to align with someone
that has the same vision as us
and a community that has the same vision as us.
So when we spoke to virtuals, you know, we,
we still weren't really sure about it, to be honest with you. And then they,
we know cons I know cons personally, who's the guy's an absolute rockstar.
And also just like a great, great dude. I'm sure a lot of you guys know who he
is, but like you guys don't really get to know him personally.
He's just like a real genuine good, good dude as well.
He connected us to the virtuals team and virtual saw what we were building and again sometimes luck and
timing they happen to be really interested in launching a edu cluster um and they wanted a
strong team to kind of come in that was that that had core infrastructure to kind of like build it
out into something special um and the stars aligned
and when they told us they wanted us to lead they were up for us leading the edu cluster
um you know we we couldn't commit fast enough yeah at that point that's you know we thought
that was like we we appreciate i've been in the virtuals ecosystem long enough where i know what
type of honor it is to actually lead a cluster um and uh you know we were super excited about that
yeah that it's just one of those things out of the many reasons we all love virtuals. It's, it's cause
like you said, they're laser focused. They've got this vision. They know what they're doing
and they're full throttle, but they're so great at identifying great things. And so they did it
with Axelrod, picking them as the head of the, you know, autonomous hedge fund. And, um, I think
Solace is going to be the head of the, you know, kind of wellness cluster, but you know, it makes, okay. We hear these guys talking now, right guys.
And they talk to you and they see it like, this is it. This is going to be the head of the,
the educational cluster. There's so we want to work with the wellness cluster, by the way,
we think there's a lot of opportunity to do like education and wellness together. So a lot of these
clusters, we have a lot of plans, like, and we can get into how we're thinking about integrating with ACP and the teams out there.
But yeah, we agree.
It's a huge honor.
And like I said, I know that there was some people leaving Genesis and this and that.
We're super committed.
I think what teams will notice is just like, this is just the start for us.
I think what teams will notice is this is just the start for us.
And we, a lot of what we're going to be building on formation is really deep tie-ins to virtuals,
helping teams really launch effectively through something like virtuals,
giving them access to a bit more models and really doing deep tie-ins to ACP and game
and building things out of the box that people can use.
And there's going to be a lot of tie-ins to Sage and Formation as well,
as I'm sure you guys could kind of guess kind of what that means.
Yeah. So at the start, what does this look like when Sage launches?
What kind of features are available?
Will we instantly have that ACP cluster
with some functionality? So as soon as Sage launches, the initial app goes live where you're
kind of learning anything and creating courses. The next thing we're kind of going rolling out,
you'll be able to save your courses. And then shortly after you'll be able to start then like
other people taking your courses and monetizing and kind of really, we really want to push hard on giving a ton of incentives to creators coming in
and building courses and them marketing their courses and sage to other people.
And we think we can get like a really viral effect.
I'll also say we're spending a lot of money on advertising as well.
Crypto Twitter probably won't see much of the advertising.
We love that we're getting this like zero to one start for kind of
like going live. But the vast majority of our advertising you'd be seeing on TikTok, Instagram,
really going out after broad users that to use Sage. So, you know, we know a lot of teams like
market to try to move price up. Like We believe this will be a real business.
And if we can make this thing worth hundreds of millions of dollars and billions of dollars as a traditional business, this whole project will be worth a ton.
So we're not trying to just grift people to buy the token.
We're actually trying to market this thing as a real business.
Again, can tell just from how you speak on this that this is, first off, monster potential in a sector.
I think, what was the number? 300-something billion.
300 million billion, which is just online education, by the way.
Obviously, global education is much larger than that.
That's just the annual online education.
Wow. Wow, wow, wow.
So are people going to interact with these courses?
I don't imagine through acp right you're using
butler and you're probably getting some more you know quicker answers quicker things uh is that on
on your platform here on like sage.guru yeah so that would be on stage um let's go into like how
acp is going to work and how we envision that um we're obviously are we have devs already integrating
with acp um we're kind of integrated with their SDK right now.
So ACP has a really, they have like an SDK that like you can kind of work with in private
as well prior to going live.
And how are ACP integration?
And look, I think a lot of this stuff,
virtuals is so new.
And I know it's been around for a while,
but ACP is what, what are we like?
Three months in right now?
It's like nothing, you know, like two and a half months. I't remember the launch date but it's pretty all pretty recent um so i think
a lot of things will evolve in time but how we're thinking about it right now is you know we want
other companies to interact through us and put in requests and we they'll request us to build custom interactive training modules for different agents, different sites, different apps.
We're going to be putting together a bunch of interactive modules for virtuals and for ACP and how to launch agents through the infrastructure.
So we're talking to virtuals about supporting them there. And then when a team requests us to build
some interactive education infrastructure
for their platform,
they'll be able to interact with it through Sage
or we'll expose an API
where they could just do like a smooth integration
where they don't have to come to our site or our app
and they'll be able to kind of host everything
or not host everything,
interact with our API and display everything themselves. So they don't have to kind of send everything or not host everything, interact with our API and display everything themselves.
So, you know, they don't have to kind of send their traffic to us.
We're just kind of like helping them put together
good interactive infrastructure so people could learn
how to use some of these agents, some of these sites
that are often quite complicated for people to figure out.
And, you know, it's interesting with Sage,
like we could do deep learning and then do any subject
or with Sage, we could create the custom modules based on any knowledge base that you give us.
So if a team wants to specifically give us docs that are online or offline or PDFs or whatever it may be, or a GitHub, you know, we could digest anything that somebody needs and create or mix.
Right. We could do like a mix of saying like this is the knowledge base you want us to focus on plus this topic. Right. So it's really, really custom of kind of
like what we can build. Well, what's the Sage agent's personality to be like? Because to your
point earlier, you found your kids were so much more engaged and they were learning so much faster.
And part of that is because personality and because it's so responsive, but like,
yeah, what's the Sage personality to be dialed like? Yeah. I think right now we're not
trying to give, make it too quirky. We're really trying to make it like education and kind of
scientific, you know, like even a lot of people aren't going to use for science, but like we're,
we're, we're trying to keep a pretty, um, I would say professional, but you know,
But, you know, kind of like as you would in a class, we're not we're not trying to make it too too quirky.
kind of like, as you would in a class, we're not, we're not trying to make it too, too quirky.
Sure, sure. Yep. OK. And also that that that comment earlier, it didn't surprise me.
And yet it did because my kids also use AI. I think they're using AI to cheat at school as opposed to like really learn.
And every kid's making that choice. Now you go one or the other and the ones who use it to learn are, man, they're going to be set up in a really, really great spot.
But that was really cool to hear, though, how fast they're learning.
And, you know, maybe that even ties into, you know, homeschooling.
And, you know, there's these studies that show kids who homeschool can really get ahead really fast.
And this takes that to a whole other level, right?
When I have kids, more kids in the future, I already, you know, I'm going to homeschool all of them, honestly.
Like, it's unbelievable, the tools at your fingertips right now um and again
we think this is like a sector right for disruption yes yep absolutely okay now if there's a course
out there a curriculum that i'm gonna go in and sign up and take that course is there a fee for
me taking that uh course i would assume there would be yeah so there's it's gonna be a basically
like a freemium style app which you see a lot in this space um so there would be. Yeah, so it's going to be basically like a freemium style app, which you see a lot in this
space. So there'll be some courses,
especially some of the pre-made courses
that you'll be able to take, and maybe we'll open it up.
We'll probably open it for some people to kind of like play
with it and really understand it. Since we
do own our own GPUs, we own a bunch of
H100s, H1200s, and Blackwells.
Inference is really cheap
for us because we
already put up the upfront money of like buying
the gpus um so we could kind of sub we could do like a decent amount of subsidy uh subsidizing
people at first um so we're gonna probably let people kind of dig in and play with this thing
assuming it doesn't get insanely viral too quickly um and once everything really gets rolling though
um yeah there'll be kind of like a freemium version
where you'll be able to kind of like interact with some of the top pre-made courses um maybe
do a little testing of making your own course and then if you want to start becoming a creator and
taking a lot more courses you'll have there will be like a monthly fee associated with this um
and then you could kind of take buy more and more credits or like,
basically if you want to do like more aggressive learning
or make more courses,
it does take a decent amount of information
to generate all this stuff.
And then part of what you consume,
that revenue will go back to the initial creators, right?
So basically the creators will be monetized
by which courses you consume
your credits through um and so on uh and this probably gated in um the sage token will that
be the utility of the token yeah so the sage token is going to have a decent amount of uh utility
so one you know we do want this to be open to the general public. So we will accept credit card as well, but everything we do will be much more cost effective
to use the Sage token, right?
So Sage token will provide discounted payments for everything that we do.
There definitely is going to be some incentive for the Sage token we'll use to kind of like
incentivize creators as well.
And then we're going to have a pretty heavy staking program, a lot of tie-ins to
formation as formation comes down the pipe and other things that you're going to start hearing
about formation. Again, what I would say is, you know, Sage is going to be a real business
formation. There's going to be a bunch of like interesting use cases for the Sage token,
especially if people want to start like white labeling this thing and what that's going to be a bunch of like interesting use cases for the Sage token, especially if people want to start like white labeling this thing and what's
that's going to cost and, and, and fees.
And if we think this thing could get to the revenue of what we actually think
it can be, um,
maybe a lot of kind of Sage token utilized, um,
to just hire this thing to be able to run, run courses,
to pay monthly fees,
to white label, et cetera.
But what I would say without getting into too many details,
keep in mind what I said at first, like a huge part of what Sage was,
was to showcase what we're capable of with formation was coming down the
pipes.
Yeah, man. Okay. I have a ton of questions.
Actually let me get to cat's question first
because i think it's great we were just talking about token i love you guys stuck with uh genesis
i love it right um and i like both of these types of launches but um why genesis first prototype for
you guys yeah i mean look i think that from our point of view we didn't go to virtuals to like make a quick a quick dollar i'll be like honest both me and
and drew the co-founders have both been really successful in our career um and we're both super
lucky to have a lot of people they're willing to support us and also we've done well for ourselves
um we came to genesis because i think these apps, like it's often easy to go
10 to 100, but it's really hard to go zero to one, right? To get that first bulk of people
that want to be like interested in your product and use it. And I think for us, Genesis wasn't
really about like the launch mechanic. It was really about like building an initial community
of people that are going to hop on here, use our
app to figure out if they want to continue to hold our token or buy our token, give us feedback, build
a community, share, get other people to use it. And I think from our point of view, it was that zero
to one distribution, that community. And then like, you know, obviously we're super web 3 native so we believe in and tokenization
so we're going to do it anyways so why not target the community that's the top community focused in
on agents in web 3 and then again the virtuals team has been like absolutely phenomenal to work
with again like a lot of what we're going to be building with formation is deep integrations until a lot of things coming down the pipe for virtuals um
and we couldn't ask for a better team to work with they've been unbelievably supportive in so many
ways man i i just like as we talk it's marinating and i'm sensing all these like different paths that can go down and they all seem viable um could we see one day sage in a in a like an irl classroom and helping teach students
even teach them about how to use ai oh yeah i mean look i at my kids school like they're starting to
roll out ai and like um like my thought is like i want to get this in a classroom first that like we
already that like my kids are in and then kind of like take it out from there but yeah we we we have
massive aspirations for for what this thing could be yep yep it's again so spicy the other thing
was it kind of hit me too is okay when i think education i'm thinking like kind of more typical
classes you know like like a science module and a math one and
all different levels of math and history and religion, all these things. But also I'm like,
man, we got all these projects out here in crypto across all these different sectors that
probably don't do a good job teaching and explaining what their product is. And I imagine
if you got the right creator, they can go and build out a module that teaches people
like a crypto slam.
We can go and have one that teaches people
like how to use the site and what for and why this matters.
And again, an instructor that walks you
through the platform and teaches you.
Right, and if you want to just build something on Sage
and be able to offer it up, absolutely.
But if you wanna build something that you could actually
integrate directly on your site through an API, so they don't even have to go into the sage agent
you would hire us through acp right hire us through the virtuals ecosystem um and then we
will expose it as an api and uh you could really do like a deep integration now can somebody hire
you to help build out that curriculum or is that on the creator entirely to build that would we
prefer to put on the creators so i'm sure we we'd have like highlighted creators and creators that
um we'll have great relationships with but we'd prefer that to to be on the creator side sure we
want to be building the infrastructure yeah yeah makes sense what about even like a uh like a music
uh tutor or a music teacher could we see that in the Sage ecosystem?
Yeah, definitely we could see something along those lines.
I think there's, look, I think we're trying to do something massive here.
And again, like, I think we'll do, the token will do well.
But like, honestly, we're not super, like, our concern is like the longevity of this project.
So I think, look, everything will improve in time.
I think people are going to love Sage when it comes out.
But it's also our V1 and then we'll have our V2 shortly after, V3, V4.
And we're not going to be one of those projects where it just comes out and that's the agent.
We will constantly be shipping updates from very, very, very early on.
Okay. Very, very cool. Okay. Now, if you and I are taking the same course, whatever it may be,
because it's AI, are we going to have the exact same experience or because it can kind of
personalize to the person, will I potentially go down a different path of learning with that one
specific module? Yeah. So if you're taking a course,
somebody else created,
right.
It will start as the same course,
but as you progress through it and you need to make new modules to figure
out like what you need to learn and what you want,
then it will start customizing based on what you need,
where you're at,
what your level of learning is,
et cetera.
So is that the,
like the agent that's then like generatively building the next module or is that the agent that's then generatively building the next
module or is that the creator that's building it or a little both? No, that's the agent.
That's bonkers. That's bonkers. This is kind of like a choose your own adventure book from when
I was a kid. It's like you start here, but the path you go down is up to you and your answers
and what it is you need to learn. That's wild. We think people will use it for continuing education,
like, you know what I mean?
Continuing to come back as the world changes,
come back to the same force and tell it to understand what happened in the world. And then, you know, we continue to learn and continue to adapt.
Yeah. And I think that that is an extremely important piece to this is like,
because this is an agent, you know,
a lot of times you'll go to like a Udemy or YouTube or whatever.
And the video you're watching or the course you're taking is two years old.
Well, everything changes so fast now.
So like if you're taking a course that's two years old, you're missing the most recent information.
And you're missing it by a pretty wide mark.
And because this is agentic, it can go out and gather the most recent research.
It can go out and gather the most recent knowledge base. You can even contribute a knowledge base to
it. And I think that's a place where potentially ACP comes in as well, you know, where Sage can
be a buyer of custom data and custom knowledge bases. But you're never going to be two years behind when you're taking a course
on sage you're going to be getting the most recent information the most recent knowledge
integrated into your course and so you could take the course today and then two years come in two
years come back and refresh your memory but with all of the stuff that's occurred in the previous
two years so you're not falling behind and i the stuff that's occurred in the previous two years.
So you're not falling behind. And I think that that's really, really important because things
do change and they change quite rapidly nowadays. Yeah. That's a huge point there. That's just,
wow. Do you have goals of becoming an accredited school? A place you can go learn and you earn real credits um yeah yeah i
think that's you know maybe in time i think that if you look there's so much we could accomplish
you look how big some of these older companies like udemy are and things like that um i think
going the accredited route probably isn't in the near term future you know i'm not sure that's not something we're
really thinking about we would prefer to support accredited institutions correct and build that
makes sense this is a good for them kind of go back to one of the questions you asked earlier
huda which i wanted to weigh in on which is you know whether or not sage will be integrated
directly into the classroom well i think what you're going to see how that's going to work is that teachers, professors, TAs, et cetera,
they spend a massive amount of time lesson planning, planning out the curriculum, you know,
and then after they deliver tests and see the results, they have to go back and say, okay,
well, my students didn't really understand this
and customize and reemphasize certain things.
That's an area where on the backend, sort of behind the scenes,
SAGE can really help educators.
And those educators can not only use SAGE to improve their in-classroom teaching,
but they can then monetize those courses directly on the Sage
platform and they can earn additional income from that as well. So I think that that's probably more
of how you'll see Sage integrated into the classroom as opposed to like Sage becoming
its own accredited university, which like frankly, like I don't really know how valuable that is
anymore. I think more and more people are
realizing that like, you know, getting an accredited degree, except for outside some
certain professions where you realize, I mean, I really want my doctor to have a medical degree,
right? I really, you know, I want my lawyer to have a law degree, but there's, there's so many
professions nowadays where you don't really need a degree and there's so much you can learn before
you get the degree that kind of the degree is like it's a nice piece of paper to prove that you
went through the process um but being accredited is is kind of losing a lot of the value uh that
it once had and part of that is just because so many people now get degrees right like the
supply the supply side of degreeed labor is much higher than it
used to be. I think what's more important for Sage is to really capture the imagination of
the creator economy and kind of all of these people that are out there that are building
and teaching courses, which is a massive market, bring them to Sage to help increase their
productivity and increase their timeliness so that you're getting these courses right after something changes. JavaScript version 10 comes, or version, I don't
know what it's on right now, 23 or 24 comes out, right? You don't want to wait a year to then take
the course right before version 24 comes out. You want to have that information right away,
and that's just difficult to do without AI. You're going to have that information right away. And that's just
difficult to do without AI. You're going to have to sit down and plan it out and build out the
course and record videos and do all of those things. Well, Sage makes that dramatically
easier. You can do that in a couple of days now, as opposed to weeks or months. And so I think like really empowering these course creators to build top
notch, up to date, fantastic courses that people can then not only take, but can fork
off of and, and go down a path that really suits them. That's customized to them. That's
them. That's really where Sage's superpower is going to be discovered.
really where Sage's superpower is going to be discovered.
How's my background sound right now? Can you guys hear me? It's great. Yeah. Okay. Sorry.
So yeah, I just, I wanted to add on to that as well. Like, like yourself, my, my wife is a
school teacher in Denmark who has a drastically different system than we have in the U S.
And I think that, you know,
Andrew made a really good point, but I just wanted to add to it that there's the whole social element
of learning and being around your peers in the real world that I think can and never should be
replaced. And, you know, we watched the negative effects of that through COVID when like test
scores dramatically fell. And so having that real world, you know,
in a true experience with your peers,
the kids around you, a real teacher,
like that can never be replaced.
And that social learning is super powerful,
but you know, the ability to learn
with a degree of relevance
about the thing that you care about
and there's a why associated with what you're learning
is the thing that helps you remember something, right?
Because you're genuinely curious about it.
And that's the beauty of these specifically curated courses
that leverage your personal data and your feedback to iterate
and give you, you know, a real leg up.
So I think, you know, at the end point,
the combination of, you know, real-time information and as we learn, you know, real leg up so i think you know the interest point the combination of you know real
time information and as we learn you know as a species what is objectively true about the world
right it's and fed to you in a way that's digestible personally for you and you know
that's never existed before so i'm as excited about it for myself as i am my kids yeah and i
you know just to add i think you can hear like obviously his wife's a
teacher drew who's our ceo his mom is a teacher so he has just you know a ton of passion and just
grew up um kind of like understanding a lot of what going in what what it what kind of like a
teacher pain points might be and just like she was also just like super into education overall. But I
think one thing that's really interesting when you start seeing like these, when you start learning
with AI and typical education, like you need like a teacher or a parent and really like trying to
like correct your mistakes as you go, because you don't want somebody to go on to next plans until
they really understand prior plans. And what you find really interesting when you're learning in AI,
it's more supervision and you just make sure it's being done. And when you use something like SAGE, it's really unique
because you're not supposed to correct the student. You're supposed to let the student make the
mistakes that they're making. And then you're supposed to let the AI understand where the
person is making mistakes to help train them in the future. And it's a really interesting
learning style when you're sitting back, watching your kids, letting them or their friends or
whatever it is. And you know, as you're going through something, you're supposed to be making
the mistakes that you make. And it really kind of flips education on its head. It's really,
really interesting. That right there is the one coolest part of, again, at least my experience
with my kids. And when they do use AI, it's the fact that they get that personal attention that, yes, they asked a question. Yes, they got a direct answer, but the parts of it they don't understand, it then walks them like you, I look, a great teacher can do that, but a great teacher has 30 other students they have to do that with and doesn't have the time.
You can't, you can't get this anywhere else. And I think this is something that,
like an AI agent can uniquely do. That's exactly right.
Not only that, not only does the teacher have 30 other students, they can't be a personal tutor to
every student. A lot of students don't have the resources
to then get an external tutor they just fall behind right and and so you know it it's one
of those things where it creates a little bit more egalitarianism it becomes a little bit more
affordable uh and easier uh for students to learn in their own time on their own pace also pace
right drew it's like pace it's like you know you go you look in a class you can only kind of really teach to the pace of the slowest student
right slowest student if you have a gifted student they're going to get bored right and you see this
all the time in our current education system where you have brilliant kids who end up dropping out of
school who end up doing things that they probably shouldn't be doing, who end up getting in trouble, having things on their permanent record. They don't
get into good universities as a result. Speaking to my own experience here, I went through this
where by the time I reached university, I was already coding on a level that people that were third or fourth year
out in the workforce were on because I just sat there and learned it myself at the time is through
books. There weren't really online courses, but there was no way for me to get that education
in school. I had to do that on my own. And I'm disciplined enough and I cared about it enough
that I would. There's a lot of people who don't. There's also a lot of people whose parents
don't have the resources to support them that way.
So I think it's really, really important
that you have something that every student
can learn at their pace.
They can catch up.
But not only that, students might be able,
and this is something that I think we'll find out
through Sage and through platforms like Sage,
students may be able to learn quicker if
you explain it a slightly different way. So one student may grok it when you explain it one way,
but another student may be confused. And so if you're able to take that little bit of a fork
and explain it a slightly different way, well, then now all of a sudden both students understand
it. They came to that understanding in different ways, but they both understand both understand it well teacher in the classroom can't really do that they only have
a certain number of hours they've spent all this time planning they've got this curriculum they
have to go down it they have to get through their curriculum um so and and you know my mother was a
teacher for 40 years i saw this happen she also taught was called inclusion uh which means she
would have you know a mix of sort of autistic, gifted kids and regular kids and trying to get them all on the same page.
It's impossible. It's impossible. And so, you know, it's I mean, the teachers that are able to do it are really, really talented.
They're really great. But at the same time, they don't they didn't have anything like this that would help them get to that end goal of having all your students understand what it is you're trying to teach them coming from very different angles.
Carmen, spot on. Some people, visuals, some tactical auditory. This is so interesting, again, how it can be tailored to the person, you know, to a degree.
know to a degree um any plans thoughts about it you know kind of bounty system uh as in i really
want to learn something about you know this topic um and i don't see a course for it yet and i would
pay i would pay some you know whether it's in the sage token uh something you guys have considered
uh i think we've talked about it i think what we're really interested in is just like bringing really great
creators and saying like,
go for it,
like,
you know,
build courses.
And we think that if great courses are being created and consumed and,
you know,
whether it was going to be like a revenue share plus incentive mechanisms that
we think that like the market will kind of take care of itself
but i think that's a great idea maybe we add some sort of like forum where people can put requests
up but i'd say is like you don't sage you don't really need to do a request right because if you
don't see a course something you want you just start interacting with sage you don't have to be
a professional teacher to make a course you tell it what you want to learn why you want to learn
it how you want to learn it and sage will just create that course for you oh wow right well
by my okay that's a big unlock right now okay wow right so you don't need to ask you just ask stage
yeah that's the beauty of it you don't need to wait for somebody else to create that course for
you so if you get there and there's and there's not a course that you want,
you just start building that course yourself.
And you take that course as you go along
and you can interact with it and say,
I didn't really understand it
when you explained it this way.
And it'll recreate that module
and explain it in a different way.
You can dive deeper into specific topics.
You can say, hey, this seems like it's something that's really, really important. I want to go deeper into this.
And you can kind of fork off the path, the initial path that Sage creates for you to get to the
custom learning experience that you need. So that's really kind of the core beauty. So as Wes
mentioned, like we've thought about these things, like whether it's like creator incentives and all
that. And we want to have that because we do think that there's value in letting people
that are really good at creating these courses, monetize those courses. But if there's something
that you, that you don't see there, you don't need to wait for some creator to create that course.
You just start going and maybe you build a course that other people love and want to take, and now
you can monetize it as well. So not only do you get to learn, you get to become the teacher as well.
Yeah.
Like again, blown away actually every few minutes, there's just another unlock and I'm
getting it and I'm like, wow, wow.
I want to rapid fire just two more questions.
I want to be respectful of time.
And then I know you're doing your, I think an AMA or Q&A like next week and I'll save
some questions there, you know, either put them in the chat or whatever but okay two things um hallucinations you know we're gonna
get all this great information from the uh the agents here and through these modules and we all
know that hallucinations are a problem like ai does like to invent things it's predictive um how do you
prevent against that it's a great question, Wes and I were just having this conversation yesterday.
That's also one of the beauties of it being interactive, right?
It may hallucinate.
I mean, look, we see it all the time, whether you're using, you know, a vibe
coding app or whether you're just using chat GPT and asking a question.
Like sometimes LLMs can be a little bit sycophantish.
They can be, they can hallucinate.
They don't like to disappoint you.
You know, so one of the beauties of it being interactive is if you get something back that
you're just like, yeah, this doesn't make any sense.
You can interact with it and tell it to kind of course correct, right?
The other thing is that, so there's two real big components of hallucinations, like, especially in, in sort of state of the art, uh, LLMs right now.
Context, uh, poisoning, like when you have way too much context, when it's, when it's way too large of a chat, that's when you really start to see those hallucinations occur and then the second thing is if you don't have custom knowledge base and you're
just relying on the llms existing like the data it was trained on that's when you're going to start
to see lots of hallucinations so the way that we solve for that and we're not saying that 100 of
the time it's going to be perfect there there will still be hallucinations that's one of the benefits
of it being interactive but the way that we reduce the number of hallucinations is custom knowledge bases where the Sage agent goes out and gathers the knowledge.
You can also give it custom knowledge if you've read a blog article or ARXIV article or there's a website that you really like or documentation you really like.
or there's a website that you really like or documentation you really like,
you can include that in your request to ensure that Sage is using the data that you want for
your knowledge base. And then the other thing is breaking down the context. So Wes mentioned
earlier, it doesn't just spit out all the modules in the entire course all at once and like poison
its own context. You're doing bite-sized modules. So I don't know if anybody here has ever used like
Duolingo or any of these, or like a Blinkist where you're getting kind of these bite-sized modules. So I don't know if anybody here has ever used like Duolingo or
any of these, or like a Blinkist where you're getting kind of these bite-sized 10 to 15 minute
readings. That's how we've really designed this. There's a lot of evidence that shows that people
end up comprehending the information a lot more when it's smaller amounts of information that are reinforced over multiple lessons. So we've designed it to be
very, very context aware and keep that context relatively small. So you don't end up with
context poisoning. You don't end up with hallucinations. And then you have long-term
storage where the previous context is stored. We can always refer back to it. You have memory.
So the session memory, what you were already working on is known and We can always refer back to it. You have memory. So the session memory,
what you are already working on is known and it can be referred back to. And then you have
custom knowledge bases where you can either go out and gather that knowledge through deep research,
or you can provide custom knowledge bases. And those things really reduce the number of
hallucinations you're going to get. And the worst kind of hallucinations. That said,
you're still going to get some, and that's why it has to be interactive. You can't just let it go
out and do its own thing and build the entire course. You're going to need to interact with
it. And that's why building this in a way to where we kind of empower the creators to create the
courses. And now you have a course that's on this particular subject that's been
refined already now maybe you need to fork off it a little bit to really understand it but the core
of it is kind of there already and has been vetted and and and built by a human in the loop that
kind of interacted with sage to get to an end product that's really high quality. So, yeah, I mean, I think that that really covers a lot.
We do have, we have another call on the hour.
So we got to take any kind of final question.
We'll wrap right there.
But if there's any final points that we didn't touch on that are just super important that
you want to make sure people know now's the time.
No, I think that we covered a lot.
We appreciate the time and hopping on with us. Always happy
to chat more. And yeah, we're super excited about everything coming down the pipe.
Heck yeah. Yeah, we're rooting for you hard. We'll be streaming right along with your launch
here coming up on Wednesday and rooting for you. And we'll be at the AMA just listening in at the
very least. But this is awesome. One of the most mature projects I've seen come into virtuals yet
with that product market fit, like something different here.
So kudos to you guys.
Is this recorded, by the way?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
It's on.
We'll share it also.
Perfect.
Yeah, I'll get some stuff chopped up too.
But I want to say thank you to you guys.
You guys are really, really awesome.
Really love what you're building.
Guys, you can follow them at Sage to learn over on X.
And then again,
find their Genesis launch page over on virtuals.
Just get caught up and we'll be talking about it a lot over the coming
days.
So we're not done here,
but thank you again to you guys.
Have a great day.
We'll see you soon.
Cheers.
Awesome.
Peace guys.
