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THORChain Current Events Price Talk
Recorded: March 30, 2025 Duration: 3:43:36Space Recording
Short Summary
The ThorChain community is rallying around the 'Raise the Bond' campaign, aiming to increase the number of bonded nodes to enhance network security and decentralization. With strategic partnerships and the upcoming launch of Ruggiero, the project is poised for growth, emphasizing community engagement and innovative financial opportunities.
Full Transcription
Hey, everybody.
Morning for me, so good morning for you.
It's morning. Good evening for people like
Jane.
Hello. Good morning.
Good evening. Are you Jane? Are you in Malaysia? Are you OK with the earthquake? Yeah, I'm in Malaysia.
And thankfully, there's no impact here.
Yeah.
Oh, I thought I heard it was worse in Myanmar.
It's worse in Myanmar than Thailand, right?
That's right.
It's Myanmar and Bangkok.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm getting mixed up.
Well, that's good then.
Good, you're okay.
Yeah, thank you.
But it is pretty much close to us.
And the expert, they say that perhaps Malaysia KL,
we should be alert.
Yeah. Oh, like for aftershocks or follow-on yeah that's
right there's basically we are surrounded by the countries that having
the earthquake now because the Indonesia is pretty much close to us and
Indonesia does have earthquake every now and then. Oh, really?
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, I know there's tsunamis in the area,
but I didn't know the actual land mass got earthquakes.
Yeah.
So, I don't know, but I think recently,
because all the nature and all those is like kind of changing.
So we do expect that perhaps Malaysia will no longer be like free from the earthquake.
We should be really be alert.
Yeah.
I'm just getting Patriot sounds up here.
You up there, Patriot?
Morning.
Morning for me. How are you guys doing? Guys, good morning for me.
How are you guys doing?
Yeah, good, thanks.
You?
I'm doing very good.
Very good.
All right.
Well, should we jump right into it?
So we're going to chat about price today, room price, but I thought first we'll just go over the whole Raise the Bond campaign and how it's going. And I think it ties well into their price.
So does that sound good to you guys?
Let's go for it, man.
Okay.
So we're at 103 nodes now.
And if you look at the nodes waiting to churn in,
we should get to 110.
A few of those nodes are,
they're on a lower version of ThorChain.
Like they haven't updated yet.
So I don't know.
They must be purposely standing, be on standby.
They don't want to turn in just yet.
So I'm hoping the fact that they're there,
their rune is sitting there,
that at some point they're going to update and turn in.
So I'm including those.
But if we get to 110 nodes,
we'll have just over 100 million Rune bonded,
which is like basically back to our previous highs.
Like we're pretty close.
So I think this is awesome.
This is working.
And then I don't know if you guys have seen RuneTard's posts
about all the new potential,
like brand new actual node operators
and operators with a lot of rune
who want to run their own node,
like their own bond, their own node.
Like this is huge.
This is working.
Like we could definitely,
if we keep this up,
we're going to get to 120 nodes.
And then it's just a matter of time
to getting those nodes up to a million rune each.
So I think it's going great.
What do you guys think?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I think Kenjen and Denise, both of you are exceptionally doing really great because you have been really so consistently pushing this as raise the bond bond your room
right so um yeah i think this is really great that we should really continue to
push this and compared to like you know in my memories i think that in the five years in 2020
21 when it first started this is really a good great time to enter it and everybody should really
consider to really check on who are those nodes that actually available and that really you know
meet the requirement that you you you you are comfortable to burn your rune definitely should
really burn your rune yeah this is the best time absolutely absolutely it's been absolutely
phenomenal job guys good job everybody i mean we're gonna looks like we're gonna get to 110 120
is so doable and i want to hit that metric and i want to go beyond it at some point but that'll
have to put pressure on the devs and i have a magic number in my mind once we hit the 120 threshold
what i like to see after that but good job job, everyone. Keep bonding your rune, raise the bond.
This just helps make Thor chain more decentralized.
And speaking of rune tard, I mean, I want to give this man a shout out.
What an absolute legend, because I don't know if you guys are familiar with remember when
by bit funds were going through Thor chain, he was, you know, rune tard was worried, right?
I don't know who he is.
I don't know where he lives. It doesn't matter where worried right i i don't know who he is i don't know where he lives
doesn't matter where he lives i don't need to i don't care but he had to make a decision you know
to try to protect himself this is his words and he was you know trying to get a point where he
didn't observe these eth you know transactions um because he didn't want to do he didn't want to
he didn't want to put risk to himself okay And then after that happened, he realized, hey, I'm kind of the attack vector here.
And Runtard has always been the person to help Thorchain when it comes to doing the monthly drills of teaching node operators to use Mimir commands.
And he's an absolute legend.
And he's always been helpful to the community, helping other node operators get bond. Okay. But now he's going all in. This man is so amazing.
He's going all in and he's teaching his own competition, his own competition, how to become
a node operator. And he's teaching, he's giving bond providers to other node operators. I mean,
you cannot ask for a better community member.
And speaking of which, Slam Bammer, Slam Bammer,
I don't know if you've mentioned this already, guys.
Sorry, I came a little late.
He is the new prospective node operator,
and he needs bond providers, okay?
So if you are a whale,
or if you're someone with a significant amount of bond,
please reach out to him.
He's taking anybody.
I think it's 1,000 rune up,
but he's going to need some people with substantial holds of ruin so um you know eight slam bammer's right there
excellent he's in the thing guys this is excellent we had someone we've made the appeal to you guys
we need people to step up and become node operators and people have been taking up that
call and seriously and now we have slammer who, who's stepping up and doing
something very difficult, become a node operator and he needs bond providers. So let's get him
some bond providers, guys. Very, very important. Um, and again, just thank you everyone. And
if I can make a small request, I'm going to give it back to Kenton here, but, um, I would like,
let's do something fun here. Could everyone, if you're listening to this recording, listen to it live. I want you to please go on a comment and just say, thank you, Runtard.
Thank you at the Runtard.
Okay.
This guy has done so many wonderful.
I've sent so many people to Runtard and he's just, he's taken it all, baby.
It's wonderful.
And I cannot, I cannot thank this man enough what he's doing.
Absolute legend.
I'm doing it right now.
I keep spelling thank wrong.
Thank you, Runtard.
Yeah.
You guys don't even have to add any context.
Just put a bunch of just bombing with thank you, Runtard.
Make him confused.
That'd be great.
I love it, right?
Make him listen.
Get him to listen to it.
He'll listen to the recording maybe.
Keep doing what you're doing, brother. Thank you.
It is great. And I thought maybe too,
maybe we should just recap why, why this raise the bond campaign,
how it started. The network was under bonded,
meaning you couldn't, we couldn't deposit any new crypto into it.
And, and then with the launch of AppLayer, of Rujira coming,
that means there wouldn't be any, you know, you couldn't use it basically.
And so, you know, we're trying to get the bond up
so that people can deposit crypto and then use the AppLayer.
And, but, you know, in general, we should be,
you know, we should be doing this all the time
you know it's it's you know i've i've actually kind of thought about this for a while like we
should always be trying to encourage people to bond their rune um because it just it just always
keeps that extra room that extra security like there's really there's really no point having
your rune sit there like if if you're holding on your rune, you're like, oh, I'm waiting for it to go to five bucks
that I'm gonna sell, just put it in a node.
Like it's really not doing any good
just sitting there in your wallet.
You may as well have it sit in a node, enter some yield.
And even if it's only like 1%, it is higher,
but even if it's some minuscule amount,
it's just, it is worth it.
And you help get the rune price up to go to $5 sooner.
Because if we're overbonded,
let's say we're overbonded and you add to your bond and you make it even more
overbonded.
Well,
that creates more room for crypto to come in and pushes yield towards the
pools to where we want crypto to go.
And when the pools go up in size,
that drives up the rune price.
So by bonding your rune,
you're helping get to your price target faster.
I hope that makes sense.
Does it make sense to you, Jane, and Patriot?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Oh, hey, Slam Bammer. Go ahead, Slam Bammer. You're the new
node operator, prospective node operator here. I'll go ahead and give you the floor. Go ahead.
Cheers. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, I just wanted to add to that in terms of,
for a long time, when I first got started with ThorChain,
For a long time, when I first got started with ThorChain, node operating and bond providing was kind of out of reach for most people.
I think there was a lot of development that was still put up somewhere in the region of a million dollars yourself.
Now with pooled nodes, there's really no kind of inhibitor for even relatively small ruin holders to be able to to provide bond and i think the main thing people need to understand is
a lot of people get into crypto for you know just crazy look i mean we we get in it to make money
right um rune is a utility token right it's not a meme coin that you hold and and you know just
hope that the value spikes rune uh thought chain is solving a real problem and to hope that the value spikes. ThorChain is solving a real problem,
and to do that, it uses RUN as a utility token
to facilitate these cross-chain swaps.
So just holding it in your wallet is,
you're doing a disservice to both yourself and the protocol.
Bonding it just honestly makes so much sense.
I was having this conversation with someone on Twitter yesterday, and I understand he was burnt with the wind down of
Thorfire and things like that. I mean, I've got plenty of positions in liquidity and savers
as well, but I do believe in the long-term success of ThoughtChain. And if you're going to hold any position in ThoughtChain at all, 100% bond it.
It just doesn't make sense to do it any other way.
So, yeah, that's just my two cents.
I think that was absolutely excellently said, guys.
Again, let's make this clear.
Why is Runtard teaching other node operators and trying to increase the decentralized network?
Because it not only helps this protocol become more successful and wildly increases our chances
to succeed, but floorchain is absolutely essential if we are going to live in a world
that is economically free. The stakes are Okay. Runtard is not only being
a good man, but it's also self-preservation. Okay. We all are doing this together. Kenton,
Jane, myself, everyone here listening, the people who are listening to this recording,
we are all in this together. Okay. We have to build Thor chain. We have to live for something
greater than just making money because you could become a multi-billionaire or whatever. If you do not
have freedom in the world, it's all for naught. We have to do this guys. So, um, as Kenton was
saying, yes, Thor chain, we're creasing the bond and maybe, you know, maybe we'll get the security
above where Ruggiero will be able to go off to the races. Okay. But there's something even more
important than that. It is decentralizing the network and making it harder to destroy. We want
to make ThorChain as reliable as possible, because if you have systems, let's say, like, let's just
take what we, what we know. We have ThorChain and we have Ruggiero, right? Does ThorChain require
Ruggiero to function? No. Does Ruggiero require ThorChain to function no does rogera require thor chain to function yes and this is
not an indictment on rogera at all i'm not saying rogera is inferior i think rogera is incredible
technology but there's obviously a central pillar here first principles guys first principles there
is a central pillar to this entire thing and that is thor chain proper so not only are we trying to
get more security just to help rogera and guys i, I want to be clear here. And Ken's already said something like this.
You're going to get your security. Okay. If we get to 120 nodes and like some magically,
we don't have enough security. Like the nodes are going to vote to give you security. I am not
ThorChain. I'm not a node operator. Okay. What I am more interested in is making ThorChain as
hardy and resilient as possible.
And we all have to do that together.
So please become a bond provider and give the man you just heard, Slam Bammer, some of your rune.
Put it to work.
You're earning amazing yield right now.
And you're helping make this ecosystem even better than it was before.
Yeah, I can touch on the security too quick. So like, you know, some people are worried or being pessimistic that, oh, you won't be able to raise enough bond and, you know, the security won't go up and, you know, we have to change something.
I feel like I'm probably the lone voice who's like kind of fighting it.
I have a feeling something will go through or the security will be relaxed.
something will go through or the security will be relaxed.
So like you're saying, Paige, I'm
sure there's going to be room made to have AppLayer launch
and be able to deposit.
And I can get on board with some of the different ideas, too.
I think our current security stance is pretty strict.
I think we can relax a bit.
But guys, just help me, like, with JP
using the word optimistic, it's literally the worst word possible to use. Like, let's get rid of that
word optimistic security. Help me campaign for that. But even if, however we relax it,
it's still, the more bond, the more nodes the better any which way any any
scenario any type of uh security design you envision that you think is right
all benefits from more node operators more nodes and more bond it all three benefit your design so
nodes and more bond.
All three benefit your design.
So this campaign is just good overall
for the health of the network in general.
It's not about it only works for a certain design
or certain whatever.
No, it benefits all designs.
So that's why this campaign is good.
It is really, honestly, there's no bad that
can come out of it.
Like the more bond, the more nodes, the more node operators is good.
And there's no negative there.
It's all win-win.
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely trying to back you with regards to lobbying JP
to consider the narrative a little bit more.
I think also in the interest of full transparency, right,
and I've put this on Twitter as well,
in terms of what your risks are as a bond provider,
you know, you have the price risk of ruin,
and depending on the size that you delegate and the node operator policy,
it's when the node will churn out and you'll be able to unbond, right?
But the point is, if you plan on holding a Rune position longer than a month, it just makes sense.
And I guess the reason why Kenton, myself, other people in the protocol
are pushing so hard to get people to provide bond is that the protocol is designed with an alignment
of the incentives. As Kenton is saying, it is just a win-win. It benefits everyone, yourself included.
It's everyone, yourself included.
Right.
Go ahead, Richard.
Okay.
So, guys, like, I don't want...
Please help me on this, okay?
People are saying things, and I know it's a minority, okay?
The thing like the Raise the Bond campaign is like a failure or something.
No, this has been a blowout success.
A blowout success, what we've managed to do.
Not only are we getting more distinct node operators,
but we're approaching the all-time high of the node operator count, and I think we're going to
exceed it. So please take, if anyone wants to post something like that, you're missing the point
entirely, entirely what we're trying to do. We are trying to make ThorChain more hardy.
So please take that energy that you want to say in regards to the Raise the Bond campaign and just help us push this message because it's
only going to help you. Jane, were you trying to say something? I hope I didn't cut you off there.
No, no, no, not me. I'm just trying to say that there is a new speaker,
Conrad, that actually I just approved to be a speaker. Yeah. He say something.
Actually, I just approved to be a speaker.
Yeah.
He say something.
Hey, cool.
Thanks for letting me speak.
Hey, so I just had a quick question.
I've been invested in Rune for a while.
And I just actually, I know you guys have talked about it a couple times,
about like an easier UI.
Because for me, just going to somebody on Twitter and bonding it still doesn't
feel comfortable to me I'm just I don't know um so like is there gonna be something within like
a wallet a Thor wallet or Voltsig or anything that you can bond in a more, I don't know, easy way.
And then secondly, like, is there like a flywheel that, like, I know with the TCY,
where as it's getting money, it's kind of buying itself back?
Because I'm just curious if, you know, as the price goes up and people start wanting to get the, you know, living money back and unbonding their rune, are we setting ourselves up?
Or is there a DAO that's going to constantly, some nodes that are going to keep rebuying and stay forever?
What's the plan on that?
Okay, for the first point, let me address it.
And thanks for asking that.
And after the previous space, I dropped out the idea on the UI, a simple user interface,
that to allow the nodes operator to list their requirement to to recruit more bond providers and at the same time
that will be the platform for the rune holder to really have a look at what are the nodes for
operator out there so that they can request for the white list right so this ui itself is being
worked on we have a developer that pick it up and we're already in the beta
testing phase and hopefully very soon we can get it rolled out to let the node operator to list
their bond providing requirement and all the rune holders will have a great avenue to look into it
to request for the whitelisted address then from there you
can actually after your address being whitelisted then you can easily bond your rune and with the
user interface that currently that we already have especially like the valde6 right it's very simple
as soon as your address being whitelisted you just need to put in the node operator address,
how many units of the rune that you want to burn, and just one click, another click with the call signing,
and then boom, you can just burn your rune just like that.
Just really simple.
And yeah, now that you ask that, I think, you know, after we launch the UI,
I think, you know, after we launch the UI, probably the first enhancement that we will need to do is to have a simple tutorial to show to the people in the same UI how you can actually simply bond your rune after you get your address whitelisted, right?
So that's the first part of it.
And the second part of it about the Tcycy i just would just chip in my understanding and my
comment before kenton and and patrick can actually put in more so about the tcy for man okay my
understanding is it is a token that for for to to let all the savers and the lenders to get back the
what is supposed to own right so what we will the ideal way that we want to see is really the price goes up
and then the holder holding on it and you get the 10% of the yield in rune.
And what is best is with the yield in rune that you get,
get it born into a nudge operator.
From there, you get more run room from the nudge operator,
the yield in more room.
And that way, we believe in that way,
the savers and the lenders,
they can even in a faster way to get back the value
that they hope to get back, right?
So that is what I see in the most ideal outcome that play out.
Yeah. So, Kenton and and Dennis what do you think I just wanted to yeah like I understand that how the TCY is to help to get the savers but
I think what's his name from Maya he was just kind of saying that there was also kind of like a some
of the tcy I don't know if it was a dow or not but he said it was going to kind of keep
reinvesting and it was going to hang on to it and so I guess more my question wasn't I understand
how the people the savers will get paid back but it's more is there um something similar with the nodes like is there that flywheel with rune
that's going to keep bonding rune so that way when people who are trying to unbond their rune
because price is now at seven dollars and they're like hey i'm gonna go buy a house or whatever
they don't want to feel like oh man i'm about to tank freaking thor chain which i believe in to try to
do personal stuff you know you kind of want to it's that that balance of like believing in
decentralized but also i want to go buy a house in singapore well your question is who's the exit
liquidity and you're right it's a great question i think about it a lot because we're all holding
on from going to 10 20 100 bucks whatever your, whatever your number is, who are we selling to? Who's going to buy it?
Right. And, you know, it's important. That's why the protocol has got to stay healthy and stable
and not have any reflexivity in it. Because, you know, those people buying at those prices they want to see
continued growth and right and they don't want to see the price potentially tank on them so exactly
yeah so that that's that's why i was always against storify is like it's just obvious it's
just dumb baroon in a bull market like trying to time it and it just makes it really bad in the bear market. But to kind of answer your question is,
my answer is marketing.
And it's something I've been working on with Scorch.
And like, I think we need a genuine,
permanent, ongoing marketing program.
So we're constantly getting,
the primary goal of that is users.
So we, you know, we can get some growth here, get the rune price going up.
And then the secondary part of it will be getting new rune investors, people to actually buy rune.
So that's my belief, my solution, what we need.
Because if we're just not talking know, not talking to anybody,
nobody knows about door chain, no one's,
we're the only ones buying it, right?
There's nobody new coming in to buy from us.
So, and I would encourage the community too,
like get involved, you know, part of that marketing,
you know, spread the message, repost, retweet,
you know, copy and paste content from one account, put it on LinkedIn.
I don't know. Do whatever. Do something.
But that's how Bitcoin got so huge was basically free marketing and people passionate about it and just talking about it all the time and posting about it, writing books like none of those people were paid.
They did it out of their own love and volition.
And if the community of ThorChain is that strong, we can get, you know, can do way better than any
paid marketing can. So I don't want to say paid marketing is the only one final solution, but if
we've got, you know, thousands of ThorChads spreading the message, you know, that'll help.
That'll get to those new investors at some point.
100%. I mean, you guys are seeing it in real time, right?
I mean, we don't get paid.
No one up here gets paid to push the Raise the Bond campaign.
But look at what we've managed to achieve, which is simply galvanizing each other and achieving a goal together.
And this is incredibly powerful stuff.
And I encourage everyone listening to this, please like get involved,
do what you can reach out to other ecosystems,
tell them what we've built here because it's absolutely essential to
liberating the world. I believe that in my heart deeply.
Conrad also, I don't know if it was said, I'm sorry if I missed this,
but the TCY also, you know, there's,
there's the module that will have unclaimed TYC because there will be people who come in late to this information.
But also the rewards and the TYC that's unclaimed will be used to buy TYC continuously.
So there will be constant buy pressure for those who don't know on TYC on that front as well, which is part of the design.
We have a new speaker, guys.
Well, can I, sorry, Boone, sorry.
I do wanna address something Conrad brought up
about making bonding easier.
He doesn't wanna talk, message somebody on Twitter.
It sounds weird.
Should there be a good information?
This is really important, you guys.
That's actually a bit, sorry, Jane, and people were kind of cite.
The website should be fine.
But in general, trying to make bonding easier so you don't have to talk to node operator is hands down the biggest risk here.
So people keep asking, what's the risk with bonding my run?
You know, Slyne Banner mentioned people are burned in the pools,
burned in Thorify, whatever.
How are they gonna get, where's my risk in bonding?
Your most obvious day-to-day risk is just liquidity.
Your rune is locked in a node,
you can't sell it easily.
You gotta get the node to churn out to access your rune.
Could be locked up for a few days, maybe a few weeks
if churns are paused for an an update or security patch or something.
That's your most obvious surface level risk is you're illiquid.
You can't sell right away.
But your outlier extreme, that left, that entail risk, what is it?
It's bonding Rune to a node operator, you don't know.
Because what you're doing is actually making ThorChain insecure.
And this is what started the whole part of the argument behind, you know,
that ThorChain is not economically secure anymore because people are saying
the bond providers don't have a relationship with the node operators.
Therefore, the node operators don't have anything at risk. Therefore, the node operators,
like they don't have any ruin at risk, don't have anything to lose. They can just steal.
And so that's why people are saying there's no economic security in ThorChain anymore, and it's just an illusion.
And so my point of view is like, well, recognizing that doesn't mean we should keep going.
That's not our problem.
It's kind of like checking your oil and you fill up your gas tank.
Oh, it's empty.
Oh, but I've been driving the last few months like this.
It's fine.
I'll keep going, right?
Like, no, no, no, no. That's a warning sign.
You need to do something.
You need to fill up the oil.
Yeah, you could keep driving for another 10, 20, 100, 200 miles.
I don't know.
But everyone knows at some point your engine is going to seize.
So if we keep going down this path of people bond providing to node operators they don't know, we go down this path where we have these node operators who have every incentive in the world to steal and get away with it because they're anonymous.
So node operators should be doxxed to their bond providers or have some kind of relationship with their bond providers.
It gives the bond providers comfort that the node operator isn't a bad actor.
So you can have like a contract, you can have legal security.
It could be a friend, a family member, whatever. Like you know where the person lives.
There's some kind of, some way to keep that you know
that's keeping that node operator honest.
Whereas if you're just like bonding to some random anon node online,
how do you know that isn't North Korea?
How do you know that's not a hacker?
And maybe to explain it a bit differently,
ThorChain is a giant multi-sig wallet, right? And maybe to explain it a bit differently,
Thor chain is a giant multi-sig wallet, right? 67 of 99.
Imagine you have your own personal multi-sig wallet
of two or three.
You have a key, your spouse has a key,
and you give the third key to a complete stranger
you've never met, you don't know who they are.
Like, does that make sense to you?
Like, okay, fine, they only have the one key.
They can't take, you still need a two of three.
But you never give that other key to just a complete stranger.
And so by bond providing to a node operator you don't know,
that's literally what you're doing.
You're giving a key of ThorChain to a complete stranger,
and you don't know their intentions.
Now, I'm not saying the node operator should
be doxxed to the rest of the nodes,
or to the rest of the network, or to the developers,
or anyone else.
But the node operator, the bond provider
should have some relationship with the node operator.
The bond provider, you can still stay doxxed,
or still, I think you could still stay kind of um anonymous in a sense but
you got to have some way some knowing that node operator is not malicious so that's that's the
the real main risk with bonding your rune is bonding to an operator who who is uh gonna attack
the network if if i could also just jump in here? So there's two things that I want to say.
First of all is the network has done a lot of work to, you know,
even if one node, just to sort of reassure people as well,
even if there is one node operator that is completely malicious and does, you know, accrue some bond to churn in,
you know, the way that the Asgard vaults are sharded, it still makes it incredibly
difficult for them or impossible for them to attack the network just owning one malicious node.
So there are many layers of security within ThorChain. So it's important to keep that in mind.
The network isn't immediately fragile. But again, just to elaborate a little
bit on what Kenton says, not only is there some risk to the person delegating to a node that
may be malicious, but if we design a massive system where there's very little due diligence
that a bond provider would do on their node and they just click what seems to be at the top of the list.
That may also tend towards centralization of bond to a specific node operator.
And in those cases, what we might start to see is risks to the protocol
where bond more and more is allocated towards one individual.
And again, I've seen the UI you've created, Jane, it's great.
But yeah, those are some things that we really need to keep in mind when we are designing
these sort of systems.
Right, right.
Go ahead, Jane.
Sorry.
Yeah, I think Kenton and you really make a very fair point and great points. I think when we are working on the UI, I guess there are some certain information we need to really make it mandatory for the node operator to provide when they list their requirement on the UI. And I think at the same time, and also we should, yeah,
the node operator address should be also, I guess,
fully visible to the rune holder to make a shopping
on the list, right?
So at least with the node operator address that visible,
then we are able to use the explorer to also check,
do a cross-check on the notch operator performance.
So I guess there are some certain tutorials or educations
that we need to do to the rune holder
so that they would know that they'd be aware
that these are the key information
that should really do the due diligence when they select a particular node operator to request for the whitelist and
absolutely it is very important to for us to have a relationship with the node operator before we
send our rune to the bonding as like for example i bond with Kenden because Kenden is . I saw Kenden on the YouTube,
talk about it being so active.
And I'm not going to lie,
this is really part of the reason why
I choose to bond with Kenden.
Yeah. Well taken note and I will work with the deaf to
make sure that some certain important information
to be on the UI.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good because I was thinking the UI would also have a means to be on the UI. That's good because I was thinking
the UI would also have a means to communicate to the know.
We said this about almost like two or three spaces back,
we flowed the idea of having some sort of
like cloud score or maybe like some metric where
it just makes it much safer and we have an ability.
Because Kenton's right and one thing that really gets my teeth,
like I just grind my teeth when i hear the argument that you know especially the optimistic
security thing is you know other what other protocols do like i remember some i don't remember
the name i don't care about the protocol but it was like there's like some 1.5 billion dollars
in assets that are being secured by a bond that's like a hundred something million dollars i mean
and it works air quotes works i don't want ever to do anything to do with that.
And I'm sorry, like just because another protocol does that,
it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for us
because those, the bond could have legal liability.
They could be fully docs organizations, right?
This is ThorChain.
ThorChain could run completely anonymous.
Like every node operator that's except BPs could churn out at some point
because they don't want to do it anymore,
and then we would go back to a completely anonymous system.
You guys understand this is not the same thing as that.
We're building something here that's going to be hardy and resilient
for not just years to come, but I'm hoping generations.
Boone, I want to go.
Oh, go ahead, Kenton.
I was going to say it frustrates me those comparisons
because I know people making them should be smart enough to acknowledge that there's other components to those designs that is preventing them from being hijacked.
Because there is no way, you see us in crypto all the time.
If there is any edge case, any wiggle room for somebody to steal. They do it.
Look at the hyperliquid.
I don't know if you want to call it attack or exploit.
There's so many people in crypto that will code as law.
And they're going to take advantage of any system.
There is no way there's a billion dollars sitting there, which somebody with a few million can roll up and this is not being done yet.
That doesn't exist.
There's a reason. The valid said is permissioned or it's capped.
Validators know they have a relationship with the people providing that billion TVL.
There's something else to that story, preventing it from being stolen.
There's no way you have anonymous people with nothing to lose protecting a
billion dollars. Like it just, it doesn't exist. You guys, it's, it's,
that's fairytale. So, but prove me, prove me wrong.
This is why I posted to JP. Listen, do we have ThorSec?
We have apparently world-class white hat hackers.
Let's give them a few hundred grand
to go hijack one of these other networks.
You know, and if they can,
then it proves that it doesn't work.
If they can't, then they prove it does work.
And then we can adopt it.
Like, we have the real stage net,
real test case for these other designs.
Like the whole point of staging on thor
chain is to try and break break the new code break the new design and if it can't be broken then it
gets implemented into thor chain mainnet well we have these other protocols with these other so
called you know worse security designs that are apparently so vulnerable, we'll try and break them. If they can be broken, we shouldn't adopt it.
If it can't be broken, then let's adopt it.
And it's not like it's worth spending money, right? We still have that.
You don't lose money by bonding it, by being the validator.
You still own it. So it's not like it's a cost.
So I would encourage anyone championing those designs.
We'll first try and break it first before we adopt it.
Also, just we need, again, I would, I very much agree with the sentiment of that, but I would caution us against the narrative of that as well, just in terms of making sure that we come out looking
like the good guys in there, you know,
like the white hats instead of the black hats
in that situation.
Well, that's the white hats job.
However, they want to handle that.
I assume they've got their,
there's a way to block that line.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you exploit weaknesses in someone else's security
design. That's pretty much a white hack. I mean, they'd have to steal the funds and not return them
to switch the morality there on that. Boone, I want to give you a chance to speak here. Thank
you for your patience. Go ahead, sir. I actually didn't have anything immediately to contribute off the
top i mean i do have some ideas perhaps for a second but just because i was late to the
conversation i wanted to kind of see what had been covered and what was going on but
jane had just invited me up so that's why i got oh i got you um yeah welcome boone thank you thank
you but uh yeah if if the point of this space was to talk about Rune price, I do have, you know, my little, I have like a bunch of reasons to be bullish on Rune down the road. So later on, I can talk about that.
Let's get into it, I guess. Yeah, I didn't realize we were 40 minutes into bonding security. Let's start talking about the price. Yeah. What are your thoughts, Boone?
uh but yeah what are your thoughts boon um well i don't know if people saw but a few weeks ago
i put out a op ed on tcu of just about uh why to be bullish on roon and i think conrad spoke to this
um a little bit like yeah why will why does roon have value and um
sorry let me gather my thoughts for a second.
But yeah, I think the biggest bull case is that as crypto becomes more and more prevalent,
and I mean, I personally think because nation states cannot help themselves, they will inevitably attempt to take advantage of any advantage they can take advantage.
More and more people will switch over to decentralized, permissionless money.
And so crypto broadly, eventually, I think will eat pretty much all of money.
Right. And so there's trillions of dollars of assets currently and then quadrillions of dollars of derivatives in the traditional markets over time, 15, 20, 25 years.
It's hard to really say how long it'll take. I don't know how to predict that.
But I do see it's inevitable that because people will not want governments able to seize or steal
their hard-earned money either directly through confiscation or through the far more insidious
effects of inflation and devaluation, which we've seen recently and I expect we'll see a lot more in the near term as well,
people will shift over to crypto, to Bitcoin, to stablecoins, whatever.
And if the future is on chain, as I believe,
then a decentralized, permissionless money needs a decentralized,
permissionless market. Bitcoin is great, but it's volatile. If you have money that you're
counting on, maybe you're not comfortable with it having a 20% drop in a month. That's not a risk
you can take for your time preference for whatever reason.
And so you're going to need a different asset that isn't so volatile.
Let's say stable coins, USD, that over time is losing money to inflation and devaluation, but in the short term is a lot more value or stable.
And so we're going to need a way to go between the two.
So we're going to need a way to go between the two. And if we believe in freedom and human liberty, which I do, and I think most Thorchads do, then you need a permissionless protocol that enables that.
There's Maya Protocol, which I love. It's great. But aside from them, I don't see another protocol that offers that capacity with the hardcore permissionless cypherpunk ethos of crypto.
It's like in the gold rush, you don't want to be mining gold. You want to sell shovels.
You don't want to be mining gold, you want to sell shovels, and charging 8 bps on a swap in and out of Rune is the shovel.
And I think long term it's just really, really hard to see how, you know, short of like some catastrophic hack or something like that,
ThorChain doesn't just win over time, and that's why despite all the recent problems, that vision remains unchanged and my bullishness and belief in it
hasn't altered despite the issues. And I mean, if you look at like sex volumes of Bitcoin swaps,
ThorChain does less than 1% of that. And as we improve the user experience and more and more
people keep funds in their wallets instead of on sexes, why would you ever, especially on Bitcoin, you know, with 10 minute block times,
why would you ever transfer your Bitcoin from your wallet to a sex, do a change,
and then transfer it back to your wallet? When if you can do it all inside your wallet,
without the hassle, and just over time, and especially hopefully as store chain's reputation
improves and just fades into the background, like, you and especially hopefully as ThorChain's reputation improves
and just fades into the background like you know hopefully people don't even see that they're using
ThorChain just because it's so ubiquitous that that's still like that base layer bull case just
has never changed for me and I'll just I'll pause here well well Boone I didn't hear a price target
so in your world view in the next several years and that plays out, what's the price run going to be?
I'm not technical enough to do that. Like, I don't know how to do the modeling to come up with a price. To the moon is my price target.
All right.
By the way, I'm trying to get you up here, Nordic Knight.
I don't know if you're requesting to come up.
I can't add you.
I don't know, Jane or Patriot, if you can add them.
I have sent a request to him to be a speaker, but he hasn't accepted it yet.
Yeah.
Okay.
Maybe he's not listening because we weren't talking about price yet.
But for you guys who don't know, Heimdall Ruin, he does technical analysis on the Rune chart.
And he posts, I don't know, he's been doing it for years now.
He's actually been pretty good.
It's been frustrating because he's been right about a lot of the downside.
And he's actually called some of it pretty good.
And so there he is.
Right on.
Welcome, Heimdall Ruin.
Yeah, glad you're willing to join us and share your thoughts because it's, you
know, you always, from when I get, from when I am following you now for a little while,
you just, you tell it how it is, not how you want it to be.
Despite you actually do wanting maybe different outcomes, you just, you are pretty honest
in your analysis.
I'd be, I'm glad you're coming up to chat and share your thoughts with us on the Rune chart.
Yeah, thanks, man.
It's my pleasure.
Yeah, I guess you're right about that.
I started doing that, like the Rune TA a couple of years back, I suppose.
And most of my posts have been a little bit abrasive, I suppose, within the community because I'm
not telling people what they want to hear, rather what I think is going to happen.
And of course, I get it when you're having an exceptionally bullish outlook on Hoekonomics
and what Rune or Torchain should be and how you want it to behave and how important you
personally feel that it is, it's not always reflected in the chart. And especially not when there's some sort of, you
know, stuff going on behind the scenes that just doesn't allow it to go that way. So I'm not sure,
I made some posts yesterday, basically in preparation of this talk. I'm not sure if you
guys have seen them or have any questions, but.
Oh, well, I did see them and I'm trying to forget them.
That's impossible.
They're pretty, well, maybe you can help put them in more into context.
So one of the, let's talk about your,
the bearish chart I saw, you had a chart having run
going down to like 15 cents or something um yes
that's correct yeah and that was based on but that was predicated on bitcoin price collapsing too
yeah you know everything is pretty much hinging on bitcoin right now and uh rune i suppose has
well the the problem is that i've seen in the charts myself, and I'm not sure if you guys can relate to what I see, but every time when Rune is trying to break out of this bearish trend, there's a lot of movement coming from Torchain itself, like from onchain to sexes. And then people are just unloading massive clips.
Like if you look, for example, what happened on,
I think it was Sunday the 9th of March, I think.
I'll just go back here on my chart and see.
Yeah, I think it was, sorry, it went short.
Yeah, so here on the 10th of March, you saw that it actually tried to break out and it had some pretty positive bullish volume.
And then we just saw millions of rune being transferred over from Torchain itself onto Binance, actually.
And some large short positions opening and then someone, I don't know who it is,
just started unloading millions of clips at the same time, just mark it,
which is obviously not good for the price.
And then, you know, but I've been seeing that kind of behavior for a while.
It's almost like people say, like, okay, this is not going to go any higher.
I want it down.
And then, of course, they are going to, you know, short in addition because, you know,
a lot of these large moves,
they actually don't originate from Torchain itself,
and therefore you won't be able to see the fees generated
from them as well.
They actually move them as far as I've been able to analyze,
like on-chain or on the sexes,
and they use leverage to make these moves even worse. Of course, better
for them, obviously. But if you have a clip worth of like 1 million rune, of course, you're going to
move it to a sex and open up a short in addition because there's nobody who can stop you from
doing that. It's not really regulated. Anyway, but if you look at the uh at the chart that i that i made that
you're referring to the one that you're trying to forget i am also trying to forget and i have to
tell you honestly that my heart is not in the wrong place i do not want to see torchchain
fail i actually wanted to succeed i've made a lot of friends in the torchang community and i think people consider me being
trustworthy and i really love the community in itself it's just it's not been good um like
i feel that a lot of the the internal movements of the price have been um some of the insiders i
don't know who and i'm not even going to consider going to consider speculating on who it might be,
have been abusing the loyalty some people have regarding the protocol by extremely profit-taking at certain key points.
So yeah, if we look at the chart that you're referring to now,
there's an obvious trend forming where if you look at the lows since
it's been listed on Binance, right? So it opened up on Binance at, I think it was, let me see.
Yeah. So like about 10 cents or, no, that's not true. 60 cents, is that correct? That the opening price, 50 cents,
something around there, it's hard to see.
Anyway-
So what do you mean opening price?
Sorry, do you mean like
when the very first day of trading on Binance?
Or what do you mean?
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay, gotcha.
So like a few years ago.
Yeah, it was in September, 2020.
Okay. Yeah, so if you September 2020. Okay.
Yeah.
So if you look at the price since then, right?
So we're now pretty much in the same area, kind of finding support on the first breakout I did since it was listed on Binance.
Like, of course, it was traded before that.
But on the Binance listing, I think we're now at the top exactly on the top of the december
20 breakout when it started to go pretty much uh parabolic i suppose uh but if you look at the
trend since then if you if you look at trend like it hasn't been a single time where the prices dipped
below a certain trend line right so you went down at the lowest port on Binance on, I think it was Saturday,
the 19th of September in 2020, where the price was 33 cents. Then in the bear market that followed
after we dipped on, I think it was 80 or 77 cents or something like that. If you connect these dots
and you draw a reasonable trend line, you will see
that the price pretty much crashed through it. It tried to regain above it again at 1.6 in
March, which was very much rejected. So this leads me to believe that it is trying to flip this
particular trend line back into bullish, but it's failing.
So somebody is sitting on that top of the trend and just gunning down whenever it tries to poke its head above it.
If you then draw the same line down, you pretty simply, with all the support it has had since it went into the bull and into the bear,
with all the support it has had since it went into the bull and into the bear,
the only logical conclusion is if it doesn't get above that trend line,
it has to go down.
And that is the only line of support that is left on a macro basis.
So if BTC does not manage to go back into a bull market,
which is, in my opinion, possible, maybe not very likely, but it's definitely possible.
Then you would probably get some sort of Black Swan event.
And then I can definitely see the price of Rune going,
well, yeah, let me just see.
Yeah, it would hit maybe like approximately 20 cents, I guess.
That is worst case scenario.
That is if BTC completely craps the bed,
then it's bye-bye for this cycle at least.
That is the bottom that you probably need to look at.
Now, there's some sort of other scenarios as well,
like does BTC turn bullish?
That case, I could probably see we're going back to retest that trend line.
We might hit like 1.7.
Best case scenario would be if we actually hit a bullish cipher, which is the last post I posted.
I'm not sure if you guys can see my profile, but there's a bearish cipher forming on Rune.
I'm not sure if you guys know what a bearish cipher is.
No, please explain that.
Yeah, there's a thing in trading.
Everything in trading is based on mathematics, right?
Or at least most of it.
The price is fractal, and it's based on mathematics and Fibonacci's.
And the way certain trend lines interact with each other is based on Fibonacci as well.
And there's a trading school, which is called Harmonix,
where they take the lengths and the angles of certain trend lines
and compare them with Fibonacci extensions.
Now, there's a bunch of them.
Maybe you've heard of them,
like the bullish butterfly,
the bearish butterfly, the crab, the shark,
et cetera, et cetera.
There's one that's called a cipher,
which is basically a two-wave structure
which has a certain, you know, harmony within it.
And it usually moves the opposite direction once the harmony is completed.
That one says that there's a bearish one.
That means that once it's completed, the price is going down again,
but it has a target of approximately $9.
That is the most bullish case that I can give you if btc actually starts going
to and then we probably have to go to bdc like 150 000 um which is pretty much 2x from here and
then you can maybe maybe hit that target but there's of course the the mental barrier as well
with uh yeah i know that we've been trying to meme up if you will uh
torch chain for a while and the only meme that actually stuck was the
uh torch chain to or root to six dollar meme and not in a positive sense um so that kind of sucked
um yeah so there was kind of a negative negative side effect of our memeing with the $6 one.
I think it's better if everybody just shut up about it in my opinion, but yeah, that's just how it is.
Yeah, so short term, what happens today and tomorrow actually is pretty important,
actually is pretty important because today is the last weekly close and tomorrow is the monthly
close of the month of March. And in the month of March, of course, we had the
BTC price going down to $76,000, if I'm not mistaken, $76,600, which means that if the monthly closes above this
and it doesn't want to go below this particular trend line that I can actually post on my
profile here.
So I'm just going to make a tweet so you guys can actually, if you look at my tweet,
you can actually see what I mean.
There's this upper channel going on with BTC right now, and it's hugging
it like very closely.
It dipped a little bit below, um, in the month of March.
So if we can actually close above this, uh, and start going up from here, then I might
have some, some positive vibes about the, the, maybe, if you will, of Bitcoin,
at least towards the summer. If it does not do that, then we have a problem, because then it
would be bad. I usually have one particular rule for myself when it comes to charts in general,
and that is the weekly 20 exponential
moving average is the sign if a coin is bearish or bullish as long as it's above it it's bullish
as long as below it's bearish apparently bitcoin is um below it um it comes in at that one. Let's see where it comes in. Look at it on the chart here. So yeah, the
weekly 20 is coming in at 88,000. So yeah, that would mean that we just got rejected by it again,
which means that there's a large chance that we're actually not going to turn bullish anytime soon. Of course, we can go
up, but it has seen a couple of rejections already. In addition bear's divergence in the run up here, right? And it is
now also being rejected by the 50 RSI median line. I'm not sure, do you guys know what I'm talking
about at all or just ask questions? I do. I'm able to follow. I know Jane Patriot,
do you understand the terms? What was he saying?
I do understand. I think here, let's talk about charts for a second, because I think one thing in my mind is charts are useful if you accept the paradigm that the situation does not change.
Like you're trying to intuit what's going to happen, the future behaviorism of the market based on the
dynamics of, let's say, BTC or whatever metric you want to use. The one thing I will say, and I'm
glad you actually brought this up, Nordic, because if there is going to be a bear case we made, I
want it public and open so we can all talk about it. The great thing that I would say, and I've used this same methodology
before to wallet success, is that you guys have agency to change the outcome of whatever it is
you want to do. And that when we talk about the community, we are extremely powerful, okay?
Look at what the changes that we've made on this protocol. We no longer have block rewards.
at the changes that we've made on this protocol. We no longer have block rewards. The community
is galvanized and is becoming together. And we're finding a cohesive strategy now together. Finally,
Kenton is pushing marketing. I'm right there with him. We've all come together. And so
if you guys don't want this bearish thing to become a reality. It should be your goal to make Nordic's projection as unlikely as possible.
And you can make actions to go against that, right? So I'm really thankful you actually came
up here, man, because I want people to just not to be pie in the sky thing, because I think everyone
agrees on the fundamental level. Thorchain has the ability to just achieve mind-blowing results
when it comes to price.
But I think that becomes more likely and only possible when the community at large becomes galvanized and motivated.
Go ahead, Jane. I think you're trying to say something.
Yeah, actually, I'm not a trader.
I do understand some of the terms, not 100% understand.
But when it comes to the price, I because i believe in thought chain i believe the
potential i believe the future is really bring the really is so important in crypto landscape
so therefore to me in terms of price i very often that i apply my left curve right so if the price
is really dropped until like what he said right at the level of like below one dollar
trust me kenton i will ping you i'll tell you that hey i'm buying more i'm going to bond more
yeah that is really my left curve left curve or right curve you want to say but definitely not
the middle curve yeah so okay can i do something try and do something a little fun here? Okay, so Nordic Knight, let's do something here.
Let's say Rune goes down, whatever, 15 cents, 30 cents, 60 cents, whatever it is, okay?
How do you factor in, say something like, what would you do in that state?
Would you say, hey, let's increase the burn from 5% to 10%?
Like, what are the externalities of ThorCh 14 that you think are the most bullish or can
counteract like is the wrong raise the bond campaign or adding chains like what are the
bullish catalysts that would make you rethink your projection in terms of a bad price
all right that's that's a good question actually honest, for me, I guess the largest thing that would have to change to make this thing go around is the fact that there's still a lot of negativity alive in the space and there's a lot of trust being lost, I guess.
I guess. I also have the feeling that, you know, there's, I'm not trying to put blame on anybody
here, but I think you can all agree, like, what Jane just said, you know, if it goes down, I'm
just going to buy more. You know, there's a lot of people like her, and rightly so, if you believe
in it. I mean, for all, by all means, go ahead. But there's been a bunch of complaints about the price in general and what we should have done about it.
And they've been met with sarcasm or a dismissal from certain key people.
I think that a lot of people need to start believing in torturing again in the fact that, you know, these, if I put my money in
it, I mean, there's, there's of course a core believer here, but you know, what I've mentioned
in the Torchain community channel as well, like I think it was two days ago, is that I feel that
the Torchain community in itself is a little bit cannibalistic in the sense that, you know,
you have this core of believers and there's obviously a lot of people with large bags. I mean, just look at the volume that is in selling that have been making use
of this so-called loyalty or trust on the backs of the people who actually do believe
in it. And I think that there's a lot of people still on the fence because they think like, okay, if I'm going to do it this time once more, who's going to say that, you know, all these fancy promises that are being made by certain people are not going to be, you know, robbing me from my hard-earned money yet again.
So that would be one thing.
I mean, like a public perception type of marketing switch would be you know the most
important thing because if you ask anybody outside of the torchain community okay what do you think
about torchain they will come up with two things that is like uh okay uh one is the uh it's been
hacked like twice or the second thing is like uh well, didn't you guys just go bankrupt?
And didn't you guys just steal $200 million from people who put their money in it?
You know, I'm not saying it's true or not.
It's just a public perception. No, no, you're right.
Who are not inside the community, right?
Yeah.
Go ahead, Slime Baron.
Yeah, I was just going to say, I'm so glad that you brought that up.
That's the exact reason that I am becoming a node operator, right? Is I have, you know, pretty much all my crypto tied up in either liquidity pools or savers positions.
How do I incentivize the network? How do I increase my profile? And how do I push for what I think, you know, the network should do in order to maintain the trust of all those participants?
So, yeah, I'm really glad that you said that. And, yeah, I think from from my part, it's about us pushing, you know, everyone, everyone involved.
Don't be a passive holder of ruin. Right. If you think that the network should go one way or another way to what Patriot was saying, you know, everyone involved, don't be a passive holder of Rune, right? If you think that the network should go one way or another way to what Patriot was saying, you know, put your Rune to
work, put it to a node operator who's pushing for the position that you believe in. Yeah,
and let's get it done. Okay, so I have a question here, because this is how something that I, okay,
Okay, so I have a question here because this is how something that I, okay, maybe Boone or Kenton, you can speak to this. So as we were talking about earlier, we were talking about, you know, being, having more security than liquidity, right? The perception of safety of Thor chain is something that we once had because the Nordic Knight is correct.
because the Nordic Knight is correct. Now, the way he describes as, it may not be accurate,
but that doesn't matter if it's not accurate because he's actually accurate in the terms of
the way that people perceive ThorChain, which is enormously powerful. So the question I have is,
how much of a market premium or how much does it factor in people's minds when you talk about the network being over bonded or at least having more assets
that support the liquidity pools than that? What is the market premium there of safety of the
network? And if you were to surrender that and say, let's just have an infinite amount of assets
that can be called secured and covered, does that not feed into the narrative
that the Nordic Knight has just said
that is largely the perception of the ecosystem,
the larger ecosystem of thorting itself?
It's like, here they go again.
They're doing something that's only going to result
in the same catastrophe.
Like this community isn't capable of learning.
Like, what's your thoughts on that, guys?
Well, I kind of agree with that. that's like one of my issues with um
if we remove the hard cap let's say open wide open we get all this tvl everything's going awesome
and um but then people start waking up to wait a second there's these nodes have like an incredible motivation to steal and they're all
anon and um we've lost the one third plus one um benevolent nodes or whatever word term you want
to use um that are using the same you know somebody like myself running multiple nodes
using the same node node operator address which which makes it harder for us to steal
if that was our intention.
But what if those nodes get turned off?
You know, our bond providers leave, whatever,
and that one-third plus one number shrinks to 10%,
10% of the network.
And now you've got 90% of the network,
all with unique node operator addresses,
all in on nodes.
People might start to think,
wait a second,
this is ripe for somebody,
for people to steal.
And then that starts being reflected
in the ruin price.
Because if,
like right now we've got,
what, five Asgard vaults?
Like somebody,
we don't need to see somebody steal all of the crypto and all the vaults.
We just need to see somebody steal from one of the vaults.
And so you only need like, say 20-ish nodes and just kind of be patient.
Wait till you get into, you know, hopefully you can get all your nodes into one Asgard vault.
And now that's assuming that one third plus one, like, honest nodes are gone.
You know, and it's all just random anonymous individual node operators.
We don't know their intentions.
That starts making it a possibility.
And so for me, that's why I'm like, well, relying on this whole
one third plus one situation, I'm like, yeah, it works now. It's fine now. But it's really no
different than falling to ruin the Bitcoin price ratio. As soon as it gets to a certain level,
things kind of start to unravel and people get scared and get freaked out and they want to leave.
to unravel and people get scared and get freaked out and they want to leave so um you know for
relying on this one-third plus one number if that ever drops then all of a sudden you know people
are me watching it and want to leave and sell rune so it would make in my in my opinion makes
the room price insecure um yeah if i may say something about that as well there's another way
of putting it as well right what i've been trying to tell in something about that as well, there's another way of putting it as well, right?
What I've been trying to tell in the community channel as well, like the price in itself is a direct factor in this security model, right?
So if you now would decide to lower the security model and say, okay, we're going to open up space and, you know, put it to work and all that, like that's been discussed, it is assuming the price as it is today versus Bitcoin, right?
Or the exogenous assets.
I'm not going to look at F too much because it's been sucking as well, but let's just
say Bitcoin just for the ease of it.
for the ease of it.
If somebody were to dump a large amount of room,
that could push the security below a one-to-one ratio,
even if you already lowered the security in addition.
So in my opinion, you always have to remember,
if you look at Luna, Do Kwon said, okay, there's a risk of somebody hijacking the protocol by de-pegging OST through Anchor, but it would require $1.4 billion to do so.
So it's not likely that that happens, like astronomically small. But guess what? Somebody
came up with $1.4 billion, and they did it anyway. Right? So that's what I'm trying to say. Like,
if you are offering something that is potentially disruptive to, you know, the status quo of what
sexes have, like CX exchanges, like centralized exchanges, and you're trying to be, you know,
giving people freedom and authority over their assets, then the number that you need to
destabilize Torchain like that for a bad actor would actually not be that much, especially
not if you start lowering the security of it.
But that's just my two cents.
Like, I'm just looking at it from that kind of perspective.
I don't think it's a good idea.
Of course, could it be different?
I mean, yeah, sure.
I mean, what could we have been doing different?
A lot of things I suppose.
That was perfectly said.
Go ahead.
And that's why, yeah, so I just want to add to that.
That's why it's so important for BOM providers
to have a relationship with the node operators.
Because the way things are going right now is a node operator can spend a node with a few grand, bare metal node, and just go the bond providers to 1,000 or unlimited and make it very easy for anybody to bond, all a bad actor would have to do is just go out and promote.
And we don't have to buy any rune himself.
Just go out and solicit to existing rune holders to come bond with them and just have a unique node operator address for each node.
So nobody will know that that person is controlling
how many nodes they have.
And it makes it very cheap.
And the only real cost is just promoting,
soliciting to get all those bond providers.
I don't think it would cost a billion dollars.
Maybe it costs them a few, several million, whatever.
But if we have billions in TV tvl all the attacker has to do
just do that math right you know if i spend x amount of millions to steal billions that'll make
sense so um um i hope does that make sense do you guys understand that yeah i think okay guys this
is the thing okay let's allow i just want to break it down, right? This is how I think of ThorChain and Regera.
And we have Mocha that just joined,
is an audience that's great.
And all these different economic primitives
that built on ThorChain.
In a world where node operators are good and dandy,
like the ones we have now,
nothing can happen that's bad, right?
Like you could scale it to add infinitum and it's okay.
But this is,
and this breaks game theory a hundred percent. This is a, it destroys first principles because
what do we represent guys? What is Thorchain, Ruggiero, Mocha and everything else? We are
changing the game. We are changing everything. This is an absolute zero to one innovation on multiple levels that
has never existed before. We are threatening banks. We are threatening credit card companies.
We are threatening everything on the economic system that has built for years. And so when
you are that powerful, when we have the ability to become that powerful, it is going to get us
enemies. And now I'm not trying to be bearish here or say something bad's going to happen,
but if you leverage the security model, you are going to invite people to attack us.
125%.
And these people are so powerful.
They own trillions of dollars in assets.
It is nothing for them to sling billions of dollars in an attempt that could destroy ThorChain.
You have to start thinking about what we represent and how absolutely
fundamental and crucial ThorChain and the wider ecosystem is. We are changing everything.
And to liberate the next generations is no small feat, guys. And that's why we have to tread very
carefully here, very carefully, because right now we can leverage our security model and nothing
bad is going to happen. Absolutely nothing. It's going going to work great ruggiero would pop off and go absolutely nuts the volume would probably be
wonderful we're going to make lots of fees but you have to think long term when these other players
start waking up and understanding what we've built here because it's truly revolutionizing
everything everything um we have a new speaker guys um d Dante go ahead hello guys can you hear me yeah yep perfect perfect well let me
introduce myself I am a moderator in the notorious room super traders trading groups and it's my
pleasure to be here I just want to give you my two cents well first of all I I love the technology, I love Rune. I am being around since 2021 and still.
And my perception is that right now, as you said, the Patriot, Rune will have enemies.
It's obvious.
But right now we are facing a situation, in my opinion, where the enemy, as the perception saves it's rather coming from within the
ecosystem and that's the problem that's why it's a bit hard to shield how could
I possibly shield for somebody else to say when that perception is yeah but
yeah you went bankrupt and I heard that it was whether it was due
to bad economic design or whether it was a malicious intent we don't know but what they see
now is that right now you have a campaign or let's we could say like collectively torchain has a
campaign to bond your room and it's again like asking another favor from the community to to to bond
your asset to give it away which again i have no problem with it but perceiving it as asking
an additional favor and asking an extra trust is just a bit of a hard pill to swallow.
And right now I would like to tell something just as my outro
that yesterday we had a conversation in the Torchain Telegram community
along with Heimdall or as you can understand him now as the nordic knight
and he proposed something so it was his idea i don't want to take credit for it but i do share it
which is in my opinion as well that the ball to do something right now is in the hand of torching
right now is in the hand of torching which can be done by perhaps burning major chunks of the reserve
and pumping the price because like what two or three weeks ago when the campaign started we were
we needed like five million rooms to bond and the progress was great but no rune has dipped along with bitcoin
and now we have not five but 8.5 million rooms to go so if if we were to launch rogera without
the security budget and the price is so volatile then we are going to be exposed to this whole movement and do we want that well i think it was just like a rhetorical
question but burning rune from the reserve can be done by perhaps voting on it and you guys have
huge power in this ecosystem so if you are along with it if if you want it, I think that's something that the community can back you up and we can regain trust.
That's all I wanted to say.
There's a few things there.
I don't know if burning the reserve actually affects the Rune price at all because it's not in the circulating supply.
It's in its own module.
And it's actually consuming more Rune now because Rune using gas transactions goes to the reserve.
So I understand the perception maybe that it might,
but I don't think that necessarily has a effect on the price.
But there's something I thought you said
that was actually really important
and you guys can hear it in his voice.
You know what I mean?
And this is real.
We have to own this, guys.
There's no censorship up here.
Like there's feelings of betrayal out there and there's a lot of hurt feelings and and rightly so. Right.
So you've got to understand and especially a lot of people, we can't be tone deaf to this.
This has real power and we have to own our mistakes because, you know, and I think it's something we can do.
Right. We are an innovative protocol. And we said from the very beginning that we're going to try different things because we're legitimately interested in liberating the world but when we
up we have to own it and we have to understand that right um and we have a reputation problem
right now because yes our thorify thing did blow up he's correct and you know even on the regira
side it's their blow up wasn't as bad as ours in terms of dollar value, but there's going to be a reputational hit there.
So we have to work together and repair ThorChain and let the world know, the wider ecosystem, that we're different now.
We tried doing things in a good faith, honest attempt at moving the needle, at trying something new.
But we don't have the political capital anymore to really be like,
as Dante was saying. So, Kenton, were you trying to say something there? I want to give you a chance.
Oh, yeah. So, thanks, Dante, for joining. It's great. And you're absolutely right about
everyone within ThorChain's biggest problem has been ThorChain itself.
You know, some of the choices have been made.
And then, so I agree with you.
And you're absolutely right about people being scared,
shy, skittish, burnt out, whatever,
because of recent problems.
So you're absolutely right.
And that's actually kind of why I think
this Raise the Bond campaign has been so successful
because in spite of all
that we are still getting it is still working um you know so there's still hope there if you will
and um um and i suspect that as you know time heals all wounds right as we get further and
further away from January,
it'll be no different than the hacks a couple of years ago.
We'll digest it, we'll get over it.
And especially if things are improving
and people will start to forget and forgive.
And especially the Tcy price as well.
The existing lenders and savers,
hopefully they can be made whole.
Let's just say they are, and they're all happy,
they're ecstatic.
We're still gonna wear that default.
Like it's still gonna, that's gonna follow us for years,
right?
We're not gonna be able to shed that to an outsider right um but i think the way we we do fight that or do address it is just by succeeding
right just by growing throat chain getting the volume up getting the room price up just like
you know rebuilding you know um and just changing the focus and just like, hey, you know, we've gone past it.
Things are better now. But that, again, that's just going to take time. There's no, there's no magic bullet to that.
We just got to do right and deliver it to everybody.
Correct. Correct. Guys, you have to, you have to understand where our reputation is.
We have to, we have to show them that we're different now
and we have to lead by example. Kenton is absolutely right. We're going to need some
time. I mean, the TYC asset has not even been dispersed yet. The pain is still very real and
people looking from the outside in, they don't see what we're doing here. They're not necessarily
listening to this space and understanding that we are consolidating around a vision. And I just want everyone from all the
ecosystems to understand what we're trying to do here, both Rujirans, Thorchads, Maya Protocol,
I see 13 heavens here. We're now entering a new phase where we're being mature,
we're being thoughtful, and we have a longer time horizon. Like we have to have, I know, like I am so excited for Jira guys. Like my, I am,
I lose sleep over how excited I am for Ruggiero. Okay. But I need, we need to collectively
understand. We just got to have a little patience here and let's get the fundamentals rock solid.
I'm not saying there's not more we can do i'm absolutely open um to doing more to get
rudyard off the ground and it will happen guys i'm telling you right now it will but understand
that the perception of for chain right now there the it is it's something that you have to calculate
and it is not trivial it is not trivial at all okay we don't we don't have a lot of um
reputation right now
that's positive from now.
So we have to earn that back.
So prepare yourself to do that.
That's why, sorry, I'm in charge of it,
that's like why I've been fighting this whole
remove the hard cap narrative
because I just feel like it's desperate.
Like, you know, Torchain's been through so much.
But also too, I mean, you really gotta,
as an insider, we understand the story, right?
But let's just step out, let's pretend we're outsiders
and we only know the superficial story.
Like, okay, ThorChain just defaulted on that,
it just blew up.
JP deleted his tweets, deleted his Discord account,
and now he wants to get rid of of the hard cap and it's like is
this a rug pull like what is going on here um like it's a very very bad look um so i don't like
you know again the patriot you're right i want rogeruggiero. I want AppLayer. Trust me. I see the potential. I get it.
But I think we can afford to be, we have to be delicate here. We don't have much reputation to hold onto here, right? And if we just outright get rid of the hard cap just because we want to
try and pump the price, it could backfire.
I don't mean by being stolen.
I just mean by perception and reality, marketing.
So all that being said, I am open to relaxing the cap.
And I get it.
Make room for Ruggiero.
We get more trading volume.
That pumps up the Rune price.
Then security gets back to where it was before. understand that that makes sense to me um i'm okay
with that my my overall issue is just completely removing the heart is unlimited i think that's
when we get into problems so for like one dollar rune for two dollars of crypto i'm sure it's fine
especially right now like with their existing node operator set i'm not worried about it it's it's the it's the medium to long term
that worries me and um because what will happen is everybody everything's fine now
and we'll just leave it and then several years from now is when it all falls apart
and they kind of add to the boon and patriot what you're saying like you know what why a lot of us
are still here we're in it for the tech you know what what why a lot of us are still here
we're in it for the tech you know we want to change the world and build something that's
amazing and helps people um i don't want to build something that just ends up destroying a bunch of
capital several years from now 10 years from now um i mean maybe i decide to leave thort chain for
whatever reason maybe we all do you know we want to we leave our legacy we want
to hand over to the next people that inherit it we want it to be good right we don't want them
inheriting a mess so you know we're we're building for the long term here and so somebody somebody's
had a lot of background noise on their mic i don't know okay thank you dante
I don't know.
Dante. Okay, thank you Dante.
Hi, we have a new speaker, Khoi Su. I just approved him to be a speaker.
So let's hear from him. He is a really incredible community member and also a moderator on the Deaf Discord.
So Khoi Su, what are you?
Hi, Jane.
I wanted to address a couple things
from what I've been hearing.
I've only been here for maybe 30 minutes or so.
Anytime I see community or KOB folks
or even OG devs propose changes
in combination with existing changes that
are going on, I become very reluctant to accept those changes only because I think ThorChain
historically has made bad decisions with regards to certain economic choices because they try
because they try to do too many things in a short period of time.
to do too many things in a short period of time.
I think if anything we've learned from Thorify and that whole debacle is that,
and trying to recover from it, is we should go very slowly one thing at a time.
And I know that Alex from Maya feels the same way.
Like, let's make one change and kind of look at the economic data over, say, a month or maybe longer.
And I would prefer longer. And see if things are working how they should be and then go on to the next change.
So I don't like the idea of just sort of nuking the cap at the same time as all the other things
that are going on. I don't think that's a good idea um the other thing i wanted the other
two things i wanted to cover were um the proposal or the mention of possibly taking the reserve and
somehow using that to help with the situation at all i don't think you can do that and even if you
could um i can guarantee you nine realms isn't going to go for it. They've been very, very adamant historically about that you do not touch the reserve.
And we can talk about that in more detail if you want, but that's a big no-no.
The last point is with regards to, like, we talked about that in the context of burning.
So to me, burning is separate from the reserve.
So if we were talking about burning rune solely for the goal of doing a price bump,
I would be strongly against that because that is not organic growth.
Anybody with two eyes would see that and go,
yeah, why would the price just jump like that?
Well, because they burnt a bunch of rune.
Well, that's not going to last.
And so it's not organic growth so i don't think that that and i don't think that the community is dumb enough to believe that that would like oh people are now interested no
they we just did a thing where we sold where we burned 25 so i i would go against that um not to
be a not to be a downer but uh but I would rather have organic growth and things that are
slow and steady. Also one of the reasons why I'm big on the whole rune bonding thing going on
right now. But Kenton and others brought up some good points about the whole security aspect of
ThorChain and how would it be possible to get a certain number of nodes where you have control over if enough of them are in one single vault where you could actually
steal funds um that's scary but don't talk like that yeah well well no but we have to right this
is what we like this is what frustrated me with thorfi is like you know everyone avoided the edge cases, didn't want to talk about it or glossed over it.
And it's like, no, no, no. Just because we hone in and talk about an edge case doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Right. But we have to think about it and address it.
But I want to add to some of your points. So, yeah, burning the reserve.
I want to add to some of your points. So yeah, burning the reserve, put it like, put it this way, the reserve is only like 20% of the total rune supply. So in theory, if it did have an impact on the price, the rune price would only go up up the price is already happening when the revenue is generated.
If you then go burn those tokens, there's no additional buy pressure.
You're just removing those tokens out of supply and preventing them from being sold
in the future. So I do like the idea of a burn and I do like the idea of the deflationary supply,
but it's going to have a more medium to long-term effect on the price. It's not going to have any
immediate short-term effect. So if we reduce the circulating supply from 350 million down to 300
million over the next several years, that's great. That's 50 million rune taken away.
That's not, the rune price will definitely trade higher, but it'll take time.
So I'm not, in my mind, that could probably be used for for other purposes right now
as opposed to like five percent burn is great you know for the narrative but i don't know about going
to 50 i think i think we can use that yield for other things that have more immediate impact on
the price yeah i i see your point i agree with that um i i was looking at more from the perspective of uh
decreasing the total capacity and then um people saying like oh the price would go up temporarily
and i would think well yeah it will it will go up temporarily that's going to give kind of a false
belief that like oh what's rune is doing something thor chain is doing something you know and i think
would only be temporary i think what people want to see is a a slow steady uh chart that increases
over time um and that's hard to do right now with the uh the negative admittedly with the negative
sentiment that we have particularly from uh the thorafi deb Right. So right now, I just kind of want us to get out of that
and then let Ruggiero explode
and then see what happens from there
because that's going to open up all kinds of really cool avenues.
App layer stuff is incredible,
but that gets off the topic of this X space.
Well, but let's bring it back.
I think we've all been pretty honest about being bearish. Let me be bullish. Let me put on the promoter hat now. So with AppLoyer, Regier, all these other, like we get perps trading, like perpetual derivatives trading in regular finance and crypto.
regular finance and crypto, it's like 10 to 100 times larger than spot trading.
And right now just does spot trading.
If we can do derivatives properly, safely on ThorChain, the volume is going to go through
to go through the roof and and that volume is fees coming to thor chain and what's what's great about
the roof.
And that volume is fees coming to ThorChain.
thor chain is that the fees are paid in rune right a user when they're placing any kind of
any way they're interacting with thor chain they got to pay a fee right pay pay the price
we'll have to pay in a room they don't have to have a rune address or ruin in their wallet
to pay the fee like like when you like in eth ethereum
when you're doing a transaction you always have to have some eth left over to pay your gas fee right
you don't have to have that on thor chain i mean when somebody's using thor chain it's taken out
of their their trade um and so if you're doing something a bitcoin ethereum it's just automatically
taken out of a portion of that bitcoin and um and it's buying Rune in the background to then deliver to Thorchain to pay the fee.
And so that's instant buy pressure on Rune.
And like last year, we had $30 million or $31 million of real buy pressure on Rune.
Right now this year, if you annualize this year, we should have like 56 million.
I know the events from February and January are outliers.
But it does make sense for us to have at least 50 or 60 million
in volume this year based on our growth rate the last few years.
And then you add in AppLayer with all these,
you know, with perps and all these different other things, you know, maybe we can get to $100 million in fees, $100 million in revenue alone.
That's $100 million of buy pressure on Roon.
Roon's market cap is $400 million.
So that's basically one in four Roon are being bought in fees.
Like, that is going to drive up the price. It's just time.
Just have to wait for it. So for me, that's what keeps me bullish. It keeps me going,
is that we just keep delivering on adding features, adding new ways, people to trade,
people to swap, keeping the revenue going up. it is going to drive up the room price.
It is inevitable.
Yeah, I mean, if I could just add to what Kenton is saying is,
I think there are so many things to be bullish about, right?
And, you know, I was definitely listening very closely
when Heimdall or Nordic Knight was talking about the bear case
and, you know and the potential downside.
But for me, I do believe that ThorChain is a zero-to-one innovation, right?
I think it's an incredible product.
And I think it's simply a case of stepping through the delivery
of all these amazing features that are literally on the cusp of being delivered.
We just need to step
through that slowly, carefully. And if we land those, you know, I just see Rune exploding and
going back to, you know, in my opinion, it's a drive-for place. And that's what caused me to
double down and become more involved in the protocol. And not only that, it's just things like the space, right?
You know, hearing Kenton, Patriot,
people who are also concerned about the narrative, right?
With NordicNight mentioned the narrative,
Koitsu mentioned the narrative.
I think it's really awesome to hear as well,
because I think for a long time,
the stance of ThorChain was,
we'll just deliver amazing
tech and and that will be enough and it also really you know heartens me to hear that you
know people we are considering what what the perspective is in the community in in the crypto
space as well which i think is really important for us for for long-term growth
yes uh and real quick boone i just want to say guys um please uh share the space if you're listening
this recording or live does not matter share the space is very important conversations having up
here we need to maximize the amount of people that hear this um because we have perceptions
to change in order to do that people have to hear the damn thing so please share the space
boon go right ahead i wanted to this might be a bit of a tangent,
but something that Koitsu brought up
and Sam Bauer was talking about it as well.
But I haven't really heard too much in the community
as far as Ruggiero goes,
talking about various use case,
like various platforms,
like Perps, I think is great,
but like an AMM,
or not, sorry, not a name,
a money market like ave and then the basically i'm going to call it asset efficiency is in terms of how much yield
is a given use case of a secured asset earning for both rogera and then ThorChain. And so if you just pull up Aave,
wrapped BTC, if you supply it,
you're earning three bips of yield.
And it has $3.4 billion of wrapped BTC supplied.
And so if ThorChain is getting paid half of that,
then it is an incredibly inefficient use of the security budget if you're earning, you know, 1.5 bps of yield.
But, you know, trade assets, you know, as a Contra example, are very active and efficient and earn a lot of yield per unit of security budget used up.
And I think even if we relax the cap to say one to one ratio, that something like a money market
could easily absorb whatever the cap is. And so I would just like to see a conversation arise around the various
use cases of Ruggiero, like, you know, order versus perps versus a money market versus
liquidation engine, whatever, and how, like, I forget, like the velocity of money of those
assets are. And perhaps while we're under tighter budgetary concerns that we prioritize
the high velocity use of assets over low velocity ones like a money market.
Yeah, I think that's definitely a concern. And one thing I don't fully understand,
and maybe someone can correct me here, is I don't understand how the incentive pendulum
is supposed to function um you
know in a way that helps the lps if it's constantly at the cap i think we need to revisit that
um okay connor i know you have your hand up um but 13 heavens came up and i don't think he's
spoken yet so i'm gonna give 13 heavens the ability to speak and then conrad you're next and then
guys since we have 12 speakers now if you want to speak please raise your hand and i'm gonna we're
gonna go in order here the best we can, okay?
Go ahead, 13 Heavens.
Sorry, before 13 Heavens, so I just want to say good night to everybody and have a good day.
I'm going to drop now.
Sorry.
Thank you, dear.
Thank you for always saying that.
Thanks, Shane.
Good night.
Thanks.
Goodbye.
Hey, guys.
Love seeing these spaces more often.
They're really fun to participate in and to listen to. Hey guys, love seeing these spaces more often.
They're really fun to participate in and to listen to.
Yeah, ThorChain's going through a bit of a rough time right now.
I see that.
There's a lot of focus on price, which makes a lot of sense.
It ties into the security budget.
It ties into the sentiment.
It ties really into everything.
And I just wanted to bring attention to Rune being this, or ThorChain being this like huge web of projects
that really are all ThorChain.
Like ValtiSig is a great example, Maya Protocol is another.
I think there should be more of a focus on,
because like ThorChain, unfortunately Rune the asset
has a bit of a black eye right now.
Supporting Rune is very, very important, but the tides rising will rise all ships, including the Rune asset. So I wanted to advocate for supporting the ecosystem a bit more.
If you see fantastic charts and price breakouts on Vault-E-Sig or on Kakao or on any of the other ecosystem tokens. I do think that'll feed back into the positive sentiment and the momentum
of ThorChain itself. And then another thing I wanted to bring attention to was helping to reduce
the impact and power of centralized exchanges like Binance. I think I mentioned this in a previous
space. I would love to see a future where arbitrageurs mainly trade Rune against other Thor likes, like eventually maybe Chainflip if they add Rune or Maya Protocol or Siri Dex or whatever comes.
efforts should go towards reducing the dominance of sexes, which is by supporting ecosystem projects
as well as supporting ecosystem projects in that it'll help wash away the negative sentiment and
bad taste towards ThorChain. Because Rune is kind of a hard asset to pump right now for a lot of
reasons. We have a black guy as far as the more, I don't want to call them exploits, but the exploits
that have happened. So like that's kind of difficult.
But if you see, like Vault-E-SIG is a great example.
If you see Vault-E-SIG do really well, it'll bring in a lot of new eyes towards the ecosystem.
And you might think, well, that'll only help Vault-E-SIG.
But realistically, once you get into that asset, once you realize this is a good asset, I like it.
I like the fundamentals of it. Vault-E-Sig is a very cool token, a cashback token. It then leads you to the next thing,
which is most likely Rune and Thorchain. So I think by helping ecosystem projects really
catch traction and really gain positive sentiment, that'll have a trickle down effect to Thorchain
and Rune and will help wash away the negative taste in people's mouths. So I just think there should be a bit of a focus on that.
That's a great idea. I agree. I want to kind of add to it too. There's a lot more going on than
just the problems with Orchain. Crypto in general is down. Everything is down. Normally,
general is down. Everything is down. Normally, when the markets are down, Rune will be around
80, number 80 market cap on coinmarketcap.com. And so if we were back at that same ranking,
the Rune price would be two bucks. So I think a lot of our down move over the last few months has been market related, even though on top of our minds is Thorify and everything, the default.
But I think it's much more attributed to the market being down.
Everything is down.
Everything is beat up right now.
So it's not just unique to Thorchain.
All projects are feeling it.
Yeah, 100%. to Thorchain um all projects are feeling it yeah a hundred percent um just unfortunately
Thorchain has a little bit of a baggage which kind of added a multiplier to that down loop
yeah absolutely and I think that the point of these spaces and the point of everything is to
undo that the best we can you'll you won't get rid of it and anytime soon but this is the beginning
step guys and
that's why um again i want to make a call out people turning late we have slam bammer up here
a new node thanks to um runetard helping making new nodes he stepped up slam bammer if anyone is
a bp here please bond your room with slam bammer let's get him churned in let's diversify the
network to make it as hardy and resilient as possible. Again, guys, share the space. This is great stuff.
Conrad, you have your hand up.
Go ahead, buddy.
Yeah, I just wanted to be more positive.
I know this is about price.
And I feel like if people are looking for, like, the 7Xs and stuff, then they can go trade meme coins.
But I feel like most people probably in here are actually thinking, like, oh, what is something that can actually make a difference?
And I feel like, you know, Thorchain can actually do that,
which is why I don't mind that, you know, we're taking a beating
and getting like, you know, battle tested as we try to actually do something.
But I do have some comments.
I know somebody was talking about like, you know, burns.
And I feel like in a place where, you know,
why would we burn something?
It seems like it would make more sense to have that turn into actual,
truly benevolent nodes where it kind of has the same effect of, like,
this is not something that will ever be used but
it is something that can potentially secure the system using smart contracts and whatnot because
eventually people like kenton may want to leave and so what replaces it and i i don't know if i
like the idea of like you know market to more people get more people and so then kenton leaves
and then we have this other you know it's like it'd be cool if you had something truly benevolent that's just you know
trustless that nobody you know can touch that actually secures the system um and then yeah just
keeping everybody still focused on the task at hand less so much the price i i don't think that can ever exist i
don't think you can ever make something so benevolent that um can work in a way that fully
abstracts risk um i understand what you're saying we could we can optimize things for sure and and
improve them and make them more intuitive but um someone i'm glad you brought that up actually
because someone had a comment um Max said in a comment,
they were disagreeing with me. I don't think they quite understood what I was saying about
forming a relationship with your node operator and that you can fully trust them. That's not
what I was saying, especially when it comes to the UI. Talking with your node operator is the
very beginning, but on the UI, if we could have other metrics that are objective, like past
performance, that could also be used as a means to determine a node operator on the interface, that would be good.
So there's so many things we can improve, guys, on this protocol. And that's what we need to do.
We need to focus on making ThorChain just that much better. Go ahead, 13Heavens.
Yeah, two points. One, as far as burning the reserve, I don't love that idea.
I know in the early days of ThorChain, we had some exploits during ChaosNet, which wasn't
a big deal.
That was what it was for.
But I do think one day Rune will have a much stronger price premium to it.
It'll be a much stronger asset.
And when that day comes, I do think the reserve is there to either accelerate
growth or to bail us out of an hopefully small exploit or error here or there. So I do think
keeping that reserve where it is, is like a very good thing. It's not circulating, it's not hurting
the price. And I really don't think a burn would do anything. And then second, I think I brought
this up to JP a while back, and I'm sure other people have as well. Ruggiero is going to be launching soon. I kind of love the idea of making
Ruggiero a bondable asset, right? Thorchain has a bit of a black guy right now. We could see a very
nice price premium on Ruggiero one day, especially if it gets a lot of traction. I think it's just
as valid of an asset as Rune, and it could be used to raise the bonds and raise the security budget quite a bit.
If Rujira attains a market cap similar to Rune right now, that opens up another three, four hundred million dollars that could potentially be used to secure the network.
So I don't think I've heard anyone mention that on one of these spaces so far. And I will keep bugging JP about it.
But I do like the idea of having Rijira used to secure ThorChain as well, because once it's tied in, like once it's tied into all the liquidity pools, in my opinion, anyways, I think it's just as valid.
I think that's a good idea.
Like I've been saying, see why?
We should be able to bond it and like you know there's so
the arguments against doing that is that um like regira tcy any other token is going to trade um
independently of of the pools so basically you could have situations where uh Ruggiero and TCUI go down in price and that reduces the bond
and then we get back to under secured right and in my mind I'm like well rather than fart around
with just removing the hard caps let's at least make an attempt right have have TCUI have Ruggiero
have those other tokens that are they should be. I would assume they're going to be highly correlated to the room price.
At least use those for security.
And if we do, if the external assets, sorry, if the security, if the dollar value of the
bonded security does drop below the value of the external assets, I don't think there's any reason to panic or worry about that.
Like, I guess this is going to happen in normal market forces.
I think the bigger issue is just kind of opening it wide open
and letting it get really out of hand.
So I like that data.
I think it's interesting.
Just very briefly.
Yeah, to take it.
Go ahead. Sorry, I was just going to say very briefly, we'd need to consider I think it's interesting. Just very briefly. Yeah, to take it, go ahead.
Sorry, I was just going to say very briefly, we'd need to consider carefully how that's done.
Just, you know, if we say that something like TCY or Ruggiero had additional benefits other than being able to secure the network, they might become a preferential token to RUNE. And then we'd see RUNE price
collapse in favor of people securing the network with another token. So yeah, there's quite a few
things to consider there. I was thinking the same thing. If you were to use the RGERA as a bond,
would it make sense only to make that bonded security on the RGERA side support RGERA assets?
I don't think it would make sense to have the Rira bond be able to you know to be measured like lp units or something i don't know
there's a lot of angles there it's an interesting idea i gotta i gotta think about it more um we
have two speakers maybe that's maybe that's how you scale secured assets if their assets being
used in regira maybe it'sijira tokens that bond them.
Interesting.
Something like that.
I don't know. I also really like the idea of using secured assets as a bond even.
Like maybe just a select few, Bitcoin and stablecoin.
But if we're talking about just securing Rijira network, but I think this is valid towards the ThorChain network as well.
I know some people are worried it might hurt RunePrice.
I don't believe it will,
but there's a lot to say about how much people trust UST,
USDC, and Bitcoin.
Even potentially bonding a secured asset or trade asset.
I know they're functionally very similar.
I had that exact idea,
and I discussed it with Alex briefly.
I think the view there is that the bonding to nodes is meant to keep them honest, right?
And in the sense of if you are bonding, the idea is if you bond an asset to a node that
is immediately exogenous, that weakens the security rather than strengthens
it how would how would the fee structure work if you are bonding assets on the regira side
and their swap volume on thor chain how does that does it coral like are you capturing just the 50
side on the regira side like i'm trying to figure out how this works i'm not i don't you you could
do it either way but i really i don't know
how everyone here feels about this but i do think a thor chain was always meant to disappear into
the background it was always meant to be a piece of infrastructure that you you didn't even know
was there and it was it wasn't like that to begin with because like obviously it was a front and
center but later on i don't think that's going to be the case, especially with the
app layer coming out. And like, I can imagine a future where 90%, pretty much almost all
of the third chain trading volume is going through app layer and base layer is mostly
there to provide the liquidity and for arbitragers to kind of do their thing. So in my view, one
day app layer will host the majority of the volume.
And that's not a bad thing, since half the fees are, maybe we can restructure it later,
but at least half the fees are going to the ThorChain base layer.
Yeah, interesting. It's a really interesting idea. I'm going to have to think about that more.
We have two speakers. I don't think they've spoken yet, and I apologize if I'm wrong.
We had Eric who joined. I think ThorMax hasn't had a chance to say anything.
So, ThorMax, I'm going to start with you.
Go ahead and fire off.
Hey, yeah.
Just wanted to bring up a point that hasn't been discussed yet and seems like it would be very relevant to price, although perhaps it's not.
perhaps it's not. The fact that we've ended emissions coming from Thorify and also, you know,
cut the emissions that were, you know, diluting the price as far as block rewards and whatnot,
it seems like that change in the tokenomics, in a sense, makes Rune a new coin, and that a lot of
the old chart data may not be as relevant now. And you would think, you know, I expected that this would slowly bump up the price,
and it hasn't yet.
So, you know, I don't have any real data as to why that, you know,
wouldn't necessarily push the price up.
But I'm wondering if anybody that analyzes this stuff in more depth than I ever think about it
has some insight onto the effects of cutting that dilution out and
what we ought to be seeing. Is there a certain overburden out there that we need to burn through
first? Or is it really just on the order of magnitude of relatively irrelevant move?
I think it's just like eating healthy. If you're overweight and you see your 100 pounds overweight
and you want to lose it, it's going to happen in a month. It's going to take, if you do it properly and healthily,
it's going to take a couple of years probably.
So just like the dilution from the block rewards,
I think it was weighing on the price about 20% a year.
We just ended them like, what, six weeks ago?
what, six weeks ago? So give it a year or two. And it might only help bump the price up
So give it a year or two.
10 or 20% each year. It's not going to be a huge noticeable effect. It's a cumulative
longer term effect. Agreed. And I would also just say that
is a question of, we've made a whole bunch of really amazing changes.
And that's why I'm more bullish than, you know, basically Nordic Nights Bearcase.
We have made a whole bunch of amazing changes, but it takes time for the sentiment to shift.
And that's why I'm all for carefully stepping through delivery of all these incredible features that will definitely
shift the sentiment but we just need to nail the execution i agree and um shape shift in turn i'm
sorry i i you didn't speak either i'm gonna we'll go after you after eric okay um this is a great
point you brought up thor max um i'd be interested that the nordic knight's opinion on that but i'm
gonna go ahead give eric a chance to speak or no go ahead nordic knight you raise your hand and then eric will go to you
yeah but my opinion on that that's of course it's it you know the sentiment has to change but the
thing is like what most people uh especially i guess um toward chads who are not particularly
traders and stuff are overlooking is that charts are being watched
by a lot of people a lot of people with a lot of money and once you break a certain structure right
it performs a certain weakness and the moment that that weakness is there then they will maybe
actively or even not actively like set their bots into um to kill a chart really that's just
all there is to it if you load up a couple of million on binance and say okay i this bot is
going to trade against uh torch chain because the chart looks like crap uh then that capital
is just trading against you and i think there's's quite a lot of them that are actually doing that.
And, you know, what you see, I'm not sure how you guys are like,
like first with, with, with EMOS and, and, and Fibonacci's and,
and stuff like that.
But you can easily set up a bot with a couple of a hundred thousand dollars
that, that just trades of the EMO.
And you see that very actively in the chart that, you know,
the bots like the people trading against you are just overwhelming the chart
because there's no real buy pressure coming from the small people,
the small community that we are, we need to fight that, right?
And as long as we don't do that these automated trader bots just you know
wreck you even more and that's the reason why you don't see anything there
nordic knight do you think um if people get their rune off of binance that will
reduce the short sellers supply so if people want to support the room price get your rune off binance
in my opinion rune should have never been on binance it should have been done like like uh
like cacao it should have just been all bonded and the trading coin should have been my but you
know that's uh 20 20 height hindsight i suppose and not really a lot that you can do about it.
But Binance has such a big bag for for sex that people who want to do this, they have
on near infinite ammunition to do so.
Kenton, this might be another campaign we can do here about getting ruined off centralized
exchanges.
I think there's a there's an angle there.
Yeah, and this happened in TradFi too.
People don't understand that having their stocks sitting in a margin account,
even though they're not shorting the stock themselves,
they're making it available for people to borrow to go short and drive the price down.
And so there's campaigns in TradFi for people to close their margin accounts and just hold their stocks outside of them to prevent their shares from being borrowed to be sold short.
So it's the same thing. You have your rune sitting in Binance. These short sellers could be borrowing it to drive the price down on you.
could be borrowing it to drive the price down on you.
So again, if you're just actively,
if you're actively trading Rune, fine, I get it.
But if you're just sitting there holding Rune
for a couple of years, get it off Binance.
And this is the whole point of,
this is what I find funny actually.
If you own Rune, you should understand
that the whole point of ThorChain is to make,
to fight centralized exchanges, right?
So that you can have self custody and avoid all those risks
with centralized exchanges, like getting your account frozen,
not being able to withdraw.
Get your rune into self custody.
Safer for you.
You're benefiting the network.
You're preventing it from being lent out to short sellers.
And you're, yeah, get your rune off Binance.
I've often sort of had this fantasy of, you know, playing out a mental future where we would do a kill switch on any rune that isn't in the network, sort of like we did with the BEP20 rune.
That was like, you know, obviously that would have downside effects or create massive sell pressure for people that didn't want to put anything
in the network, but I'm very curious to know what a Thor chain
without Binance rune would look like.
Go ahead, Eric.
Hey, gentlemen.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me, guys.
I've been part of ThorChain since late 2021.
I'm a noji, but I have been following a lot.
I'm involved in the ecosystem actively for around two and a half years.
And one thing that I would like to raise for everyone listening is that the ThorChain and the cross-chain ecosystem,
So the ThorChain and the cross-chain ecosystem, we used to have this strong culture and this weight on how people perceived what ThorChain was doing, what ThorChain spearheaded.
And then, you know, Maya, Chainflip, all of these players are, you know, pushing as well.
And I would just like to ask people who you know have more influence in the
in the space in the cross-chain space now that we we flushed out everyone who doesn't want to
be part of third chain anymore and yes we saw the price action of course the people who are here
are the ones that are fully convinced that we are we do have a future as as as the cross chain
space uh you know and entails so what i just want to say is maybe we should try and work a little
bit on the perception to the outside and how potential new players and new holders see
torching because right now i don't see all of the problems,
the economic and tokenomics side of problems are basically solved.
But how do we turn all of the people who are outside of the ThorChain,
well, the cross-chain ecosystem,
how do we make them understand what ThorChain stands for?
Because right now I see a lot of people
like the people who have a voice in our space in our little space in our inner
corner of crypto speaking to the existing you know members or holders I
don't see a lot of hard shields so to speak to people outside and the ones who
are like the posts who go viral
and the people who will go viral,
there's a perception there
that ThorChain enables
things that we are not.
We should focus on what
ThorChain does and, you know,
Maya, Chainflip, etc. What we do
for the space and not what we are not.
And stop fighting all of the
FUD because there's a lot of money involved.
And I know for a fact that there's many people who want to see ThorChain fail
because they have other interests in the space.
So for those who have a voice,
maybe we should start pivoting into getting new members in the community.
pivoting into getting new members in the community not like like i think that the the issues where
where we had an exodus are over but i don't see the pivot to bringing new players to to
to the thortain space and maybe that's what we're lacking
so uh two or three spaces ago i forget forget who brought it up, but someone talked about how they expressed a strong interest in trying to market more of ThorChain to kind of bring it more to the masses so that they know what's offered.
I forget the fellow's name that brought it up, but I distinctly that being discussed it was me it's kenton yeah yeah so uh well not just weekend there was another guy
later i don't remember his name but essentially the same thing well so i agree with the sentiment
like um you know we're gonna basically almost like rebrand fortune in a sense maybe um like you know
get change the narrative you know get positive get positive, get new eyes, new people.
I agree with all that.
But in my opinion, the best way to do that
is getting the room price up.
That changes, the room price will change,
that's ultimately what will change people's perception.
So how do we do that?
We need users. So the marketing that I want to focus on and
try and get done is get new users, get volume on ThorChain, because I think it's much easier
to give in somebody to open their trust wallet or ledger and go place a bitcoin swap than it is to explain thor chain justify all
the problems we had why they're not problems anymore and why they should buy rune that is a
much harder sell than somebody opening ledger live and placing a swap um and so not only is it
easier so if it's an easier sell, it means we'll have more success.
We get those users up, that volume up, that drives up the rune price.
Then we can take the strength and the rune price, the strength and the growth of users,
the strength and the growth of volume, and we can take that to our new audience and say,
hey, listen, this is what ThorChain is doing. ThorChain is delivering. This is happening.
Yeah, we've had
problems. They're in the past, but we're getting past them. And we have real data to show you real
results. And look at this trend, this growth, whatever, project that into the future. And
you should buy Rune. Because if we do it the other way, we go get this new investors,
this new audience,
everybody excited about DoorChain
and our volumes are sideways,
the user growth is sideways,
then nothing is growing.
Like the metrics aren't changing.
Those people will leave.
You know,
they'll get tired.
You know,
maybe they'll stick around
for a year or two,
but they won't see any results.
They won't see anything happening
and they'll just
go. And so all that effort, all that energy to get them in will be for nothing. Whereas we spend
that energy and effort on getting new users, they should be users for life. In my opinion,
if you train on third chain once, you know about it, you understand it, you should automatically click while you're using it versus using a sex.
And they'll place more than one trade.
So in my mind, that's what we need to focus on, getting those new users.
And so how do we do that?
Again, this is my opinion.
I don't think TrustWall and Ledger and the rest, they're doing a good job at all of telling their users to swap Bitcoin inside their wallet. They have this new feature, but nobody knows it exists and no one's doing it. So for me, this has been what I've been most wrong about DoorChain is the growth in users.
You know, for me, this has been my, what I've been most wrong about ThorChain is the growth in users.
Like we're stuck at like tens of thousands of users per month.
We should have a million users per month by now based on all the wallets we're integrated in.
There's, in my opinion, that's our biggest problem, our biggest disconnect.
We got to figure that out.
We got to solve that.
Why aren't there more of these users trading on ThorChain?
Because if we can't solve that
all these features and all this everything is really for nothing you know we're we're
we're building them for no audience um we got to get that audience engaged i agree um this is a
great point guys and that's something i'm really interested in doing um real quick guys please
share the space whether you're listening live or the recording let's get some more people to hear this conversation. Boone's had his hand up
for a while. We're going to go to Shapeshift first because he hadn't spoken yet and then
go to the Boone. And then let's try to respect the hand thing. Or maybe if it doesn't work,
we can go to a free flow conversation. But go ahead, Shapeshift.
Hey, thanks, guys. I'm Ruggin, so I'd rather actually defer to Boone. I'm going to take a lap. I did make a couple of written questions. I want to draw off of Kenton's metals experience and see if there's any applicable wisdom to share there. Outreach and building the community via TrustWallet, via Ledger, via Phantom is the move, perhaps.
And I'd like to actually touch base on a few different things, one being the paper markets, we need to remember fundamentally that the BEP rune
was because Binance actually enabled ThorChain to be incubated. And that's a crux between
Binance enabling our developers to dev. And we're lucky enough to have a node operator here,
which it doesn't matter what the devs do
if the node operators don't vote something
that the devs developed to be implemented.
So thank you, Kenton, for all your efforts.
And I think in the age of information,
we should share information.
I'm gonna take a lap and defer to Boone.
Thank you. Thank you for taking that, buddy. I just going to take a lap and defer to Boone. Thank you.
Thank you for taking that, buddy. I just want to let you know, that was well said, but your mic is having issues. So maybe try switch mics or work on that. But thank you for that.
I appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks, Hapesheft. Go ahead, Boone. It's all on you, buddy.
Sure. The conversation has moved on a little bit but um
i want to have no worries yeah we had when you guys were talking about binance i mean we like
the whole design of thortain requires external markets though right i mean to arb like we need
a way for arb to be able to close the loop so So I think there's some amount of, you know, and I liked what 13 Heavens brought up is like, yeah,
in a perfect world, that loop could be closed with Maya
and then the ARBs can just stay in the DEX space.
But like until the liquidity is deep enough for that to happen,
I mean, we do need external markets for the ARBs to do their thing
to keep Thorchain price on point.
So I just, I think that is, you know, just needs to be acknowledged.
And then.
Well, can I actually, Boone, no, we only need external markets for Bitcoin and Ethereum
prices.
For Rune, it could just be priced on ThorChain.
We don't need an external market.
It'll be, by having Bitcoin and Ethereum prices, that gives Rune a price of value.
So it could, and that's exactly how Kakao works, right?
Right, 13 heavens?
Okay.
Yeah, exactly.
No? Okay.
No, it does work exactly like that.
Kakao doesn't have a third marketplace or a secondary marketplace, which is actually probably why we're seeing quite a bit of stability.
I know all assets have been hurt quite a bit, but originally the Thor chain rune pool in Maya was so massive that when Thor chain went up or went down, it caused a knockdown effect on the Kakao price quite a bit.
And more recently, the rune pool has become i think the second biggest pool the third biggest pool
right now so when rune goes up uh cacao doesn't go up as much when it goes down it doesn't go down
as much but we've actually seen a pretty decent inflow so like the cacao price has been performing
pretty well but uh yeah no we don't necessarily need uh third or second rune marketplace.
The only time that really helps is if someone wants to enter rune in size,
but even then, you can use the various Thor chain pools to arb against that trade.
So realistically, no, you don't need a third-party place to trade rune.
It can just help in some cases if you really really want to enter in size
but i i do think i don't want to call it the enemy but i i do think the biggest anchor on
rune besides like the negative sentiment right now is is binance like i love binance but um
between all of the uh professional traders trading uh rune as a speculative vehicle and having no intrinsic skin in the game it causes
this ripple effect that really um harshes runes movements in both directions
okay yeah thank you to both of you guys for that correction yeah that makes a lot of sense
and i did not have my proper mental model of how ARBs work.
So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And then the other point I wanted to kind of,
this is what ThorMax brought up about how the changing structure of like Rune tokenomics,
you can kind of look at the Bybit hack as like a nice little case study
because so much volume went through in such a short amount of time.
Like over the course of those four days or whatever it was, the Rune price went from like $120 to $160.
And I think a lot of that can be attributed to the direct buy pressure.
I saw someone say it was about like, you know, $5.5 million in fees were collected by Thor Chain itself.
And so that's, you know you know 5.5 million in
buy pressure on rune and then of course we had some large actors some large wallets dumping
so that price gain got you know squashed but um i think it was a great case study of how
volume directly impacts price especially after absent of the block rewards.
And so, yeah, those are the two things I wanted to raise.
Boone, maybe we can rephrase that.
It is an unfortunate case study to prove that.
We don't want those kind of funds.
We don't support that.
Yeah.
None of us are – I know you're not.
Yes. But just yeah yeah
we just want to make it clear for everybody listening right we didn't know we don't want
that kind of volume from those kind of actors on thor chain but we we it it's going to happen again
right we can't stop it um which actually opens up a whole new conversation we've talked about in the past, but we're not trying to solicit that kind of volume.
And if you guys know, this community has already developed the solution to funds being exploited with both the SIG and other like technologies.
So we're trying to make things better.
But Kenton, Justin, we have a new speaker here.
Kenton, Justin, we have a new speaker here.
I'm going to get you in a second.
But Kenton, I think I really like what Boone said there, though, because I think this perfectly
illustrates that your idea of increasing, and this is a simple idea, but I mean, you
know, it is what it is.
Your idea of increasing the amount of people on the interfaces like TrustWallet, Ledger
and such to just increase their own users to use it, that is the solution. We just need more swap volume. I mean, imagine that. Such a simple
and novel explanation, such a solution to do, right? So guys, I really want people to rally
behind what Kenton is saying here because it's just a simple and clear narrative. It makes
complete sense. We really should galvanize TrustWallet, Ledger, and other
interfaces to just get more users. I mean, if I'm TrustWallet and only like, what was it, Kenton,
such a tiny percentage of the people are using their own interface to swap. The amount of fees
they've generated from that is a loan. I mean, the parabolic growth that TrustWallet by itself
could enjoy from just trying to get its own users to swap, I mean, is truly phenomenal.
Let me just check quick.
So TrustWallet says they have 200 million downloads, right?
And I'm equating that to 200 million people.
I get it.
One person can have multiple downloads.
one person have multiple downloads.
Let's just keep it simple.
Let's just keep it simple.
There's only been 500,000 of those wallets
have used ThorChain.
So what's 500,000 divided by 200 million
is a hundred point two five percent.
So like, you know, my opinion, that should be more like one or two or 3%.
Like it should be, I'm not all 100% those users are going to do it, but gosh, at least
a few percent, like not a quarter.
Right.
So there's a huge disconnect there.
There's something wrong.
There's something going on.
Maybe those 200 million million that 200 million number
is fake maybe trustwell is lying i don't know like maybe it is a few million people who've downloaded
it uh 20 times each i don't know like um but i you know i no one accused trustwell lying and i don't
think it's one person each user is downloading the wallet 20 times each there's got to be that numbers is probably between 100 million and
200 million you know of actual people right um so we got to break that right i mean if you just look
at their x x profile i don't see i mean they talk about us occasionally which is awesome and i'm so
thankful for that but i don't see them push it as much. And, and so I think your instinct is correct. I think there's a lot of, a lot of people who are just
simply don't know that it's there. And if you had a two to 3% usage, I mean, that's a 10X right
there, which is, it seems very, very, very doable in my mind. Justin, you've joined the stage.
Yeah, I would say two to 3% usage is very durable very realistic and i wanted
to get on the stage to sort of rally behind what kenton was saying about when we're talking about
ruin price it's about these partnerships with trust wallet and and the others you know these
these wallets have been building users for years and years and and and they benefit every time someone uses
because they can program in what commission they want to take and then this is the way forward
because we can we can use videos we can use memes and it's all about timing it's all about marketing
and it's about spreading the word of like you can use the wallet's interface to swap natively.
And this,
this will give you the lowest slippage.
And it's exciting to have such a clear and achievable goal forward.
And that's why I wanted to get on the stage just to say that.
I like that idea.
Okay.
So I have everyone,
we have everyone's attention here.
People are going to listen to this recording.
Is there someone out there with some video editing skills?
I can do a little video editing,
but I'm abysmal compared to most people. I think we should all just pool our talents here. Let's
get some people together. Some people are good at speaking. Some people are good at video editing.
Some people are good at technical analysis. There's a lot of different skill sets here.
I think we should get together and really just start pushing content and just doing things.
Like we said, I don't get paid to do this. I'm just a regular human being just doing it because
I believe in it and I really want to succeed. But there is so much potential here, guys. I mean,
if we want 4Chain to go, if you want it to be three-figure asset or even higher than that,
let's fucking go. Let's do it. Like, what are we waiting for? You know what I mean? I just,
I believe in efficiency between thought and action.
If you have an idea, just do it.
It can't hurt, right?
Like, if you think you can do something, just start right now.
Or make a plan to start right away.
Let's just put our ideas to test.
Because I don't want to do spaces where we just talk about doing things and how cool and good and awesome.
Like, let's actually do them.
Let's do them. Like, we're doing this right now like we're raising the bond campaign
wildly successful hugely successful let's let's um i don't i don't know what you would call it
you know a campaign interfaces use your use your users i don't know what you'd say but um there
let's do this guys let's do this go ahead eric's do this. Go ahead, Eric. Your hand's up. Yeah, here's a thought.
So you have the rules and you have the technology.
And yes, it's great to market the technology.
But in the end, marketing something so abstract might be complicated because people will not resonate as much as marketing ThorChain as the rails to bring in users,
if you see any app that it's built on ThorChain
or an interface that brings value to the ecosystem,
you know, a little bit indirect,
and you see them doing marketing,
jump in, drop a comment, drop a repost, join their spaces, whatever.
Because in the end, it's going to be easy if we coordinate to market for chain,
but it's going to be 10x easier to bring in users and volume through apps
rather than the rails or the technology.
Because again, marketing such an abstract thing as cross-chain swaps is going to be hard.
Other than, let's just say, imagine that someone comes up with a game
that uses ThorChain in the backend, it's going to be so much easier to market that.
So if you see any dApps that are promoting ThorChain indirectly through their interface,
also jump in on that because I do believe that that's going to be the future for ThorChain.
also jump in on that because I do believe that that's going to be the future for ThorChain.
Maybe not pushing the tech, but pushing the products that use the tech.
Yeah, I've been guilty of this myself in the past.
We'll see something on Twitter where, I don't know, somebody's placing a swap and it gets held up or there's an issue.
And all the ThorChads jump in, use Thorchain, use Thorchain, use Thorchain.
Well, we should be saying use TrustWallet, use Ledger, use ThorSwap,
use ThorWallet, use AsgardX.
We should be, you know, whatever your favorite wallet front end is,
tell people to use that.
And, right, because then indirectly they're using Thorchain.
If you just tell people to use ThorChain,
they're like, well, where do I start?
ThorChain.com, then what?
You really got to go to jump over a lot of hurdles
to figure out how to use it.
Whereas if you just send them right to the front end,
you're eliminating all that headache.
And cool with it, ThorSwap,
you can have a referral link with them. Same with ThorWallet,
you can have a referral link. So if you tell somebody to use it on your link, you get a kick
back on their swap fees. So yeah, we shouldn't be promoting ThorChain per se, we should be
promoting the front end we want people to use.
I completely agree. I completely agree, guys. Okay, guys. We've talked a lot for one thing.
We're going on two and a half hours, so this is great. I still have energy to continue, Kenton. I don't know about you. Is there anything, if anyone else wants to come up and speak,
we got a request here. Okay, I got ShapeShift shift um guys this is an open forum we're here
to talk about you know the price speculation what's gonna happen yes um i feel bad because uh
nordic night left and i'm like man we actually didn't i feel like we didn't talk about price
that much we kept getting sidetracked um because i wanted to hear some more from him um but uh
yeah it is open forum we talk about wherever you want guys um we were we were trying
to talk about price but i feel like i think we got do you think we did price to get enough uh
justice there patriot i think we can talk more about it somehow well i you know i think one
thing so we talked about price and in nordic knight did have where he talked about, you know, what, what the potential
is going to be like, you know, he, he, he gave a bear case. Right. But then we address like,
what are the things, the elements that we could do to change this outlook? Because all of us here
are willing participants of something. I mean, the thing, um, to give a little anecdote about
myself, you know, I did pretty well in the stock market because I invested in Tesla.
And I had a dividend stock portfolio and stuff like that.
The reason why things are value is the outlook.
It's been years, but Walmart or whatever, they can give a dividend and you're getting, I don't know, 1% sometimes yield yearly, right?
On a dividend stock portfolio. But people buy that stock because it makes them comfortable. And
they know that Walmart is probably going to be around for a long time, especially since now we're
post the Amazon scare, right? The sentiment of ThorChain has a market valuation that I don't know.
And the thing that I really want to hit home is that we have to take a slice of humble pie here.
We've made mistakes, but we were open that we were going to be innovative and try new things.
But we have to really eat our humble pie and know that we have to, to, to start from basic basics again and
rebuild our brand and rebuild our vision and to bring new people in and hopefully to get some
people that are, that were Thor Chads that are now jaded or not in our system. Um, and, and I think
to Nordic night's point, um, that's what we got to do. And, and then I want Nordic night to come
up. We can do this space again about price.
I just, he, he just, I noticed he just jumped back in. I, Nordic night, I invited you to speak. I felt bad that we, we kind of cut you off. And I don't think we truly got to let you finish your thoughts. If you want to come up and speak again, great. Love to hear everything else you had to say. But there is something I wanted to add about price. So I'm not trying to,
how do I say this? I'm trying to talk constructively, not lament on the past,
but basically to help understand why Thorify kept the room price down. And I can prove it.
price down. And I can prove it. So everyone in crypto understands the difference between market
cap and fully diluted value. If you get a market cap of a token is 100 million,
but it could have a fully diluted value of a billion. And everybody will value that token
based on a billion dollar valuation, not 100 million, but a billion.
Because they know those tokens are going to come free trading and they're going to dump on them.
So people in crypto have learned this the hard way.
This has existed in all of finance for thousands of years, but a lot of people new to crypto are new to investing and have had to learn that the hard way.
A lot of people new to crypto are new to investing and have had to learn that the hard way.
So FDV has become this huge metric that everybody is highly aware and conscious of.
Well, there's another concept. It's called enterprise value.
And so enterprise value is like the total value, the total price you pay to acquire a company.
the total value, the total price you pay to acquire a company. So with market cap and FDV,
you're just looking at the tokens, the equity. But all these tokens, all these cryptos had zero
debt. So you never had to take into account its debt on the value of the company. But then there's
store chain, we got to do everything different, right? And so one thing we did differently is we had debt through Thorify. And so you have to add
that debt on top of the FDV as well to get your total value of the company. And so just to help
drive that point home, imagine you buy a restaurant. You buy it for 100 grand. But that restaurant also has
$50,000 in debt, that business. Well, your total cost to buy that restaurant is 150 grand,
right? You're buying it for 100 grand, but you're also inheriting that 50 grand debt.
So to truly own that business outright, you'd have to pony up another 50 grand to cover off and pay the debt to own it 100%.
So the true cost to own that restaurant is 150 grand.
That's its enterprise value.
100 grand for the equity, 50 grand for the debt equals 150 grand enterprise value.
So with ThorChain, when we had ThorFi, we had what's called 350 million in the circulating tokens.
And then 500 million was our max supply, or was our FDV.
But we have this debt, this variable debt weighing on top of ThorChain.
So that, it couldn't trade it kept the weight
on on the price because of that variable debt and um uh that variable enterprise value so
but that's gone now right that doesn't that's not there anymore right that was the whole point of
defaulting on on thorfine getting rid of the
the minting rune side of things is we got rid of that debt we got rid of that variable debt
so that's no longer there which makes thor chain essentially cheaper much cheaper today than it
was a year ago so um um yeah i just want to bring that up up. I think a lot of people don't understand how much the debt weighs on the price.
It's simpler now as well.
There's less calculations you have to make to sort of think about its value, its cheapness.
Yeah, exactly.
The cognitive burden has gone down tremendously by simplifying, not simplifying necessarily in a
good way, but it is what it is. This is where we're at. So I totally agree. The Nordic Knight,
you're back up. Welcome. We want to give you another chance if you wanted to say some more,
because we did formally invite you up here and you are one of the lead figures when it comes to discussing price uh well uh
thanks for that yeah sorry i had some technical issues um i i think it was gone like 20 minutes
or something was there brought up something that you would specifically want to know or
no i just i just felt bad we kind of cut you off a bit um when you're talking about the
you're talking about the bear case of ruin and and bitcoin but then you kind of cut you off a bit when you're talking about the bear case of Rune and Bitcoin,
but then you kind of started, I think, going into the bull case.
And I wanted to ask you as well, I'm a terrible trader.
I actually do appreciate technical analysis, but every time I try and trade, I lose money,
so I don't.
But what I do know about trading and TA
is that don't you always have two cases?
You have the bearish case and the bullish case.
Like you always, you probably listically weight each one.
And if I'm right, if that's true,
do you have a bullish case on ruining Bitcoin?
How are you probabilistically weighting each one?
Yeah, so like I said, for me, it is very simple.
Like, I look at TA based on probabilities and not certainties.
I don't think anybody should do that anyway.
I mean, so for me, when i look at a particular chart i
see probabilities and i see you know of course i see the pool case of course i see the bear case
for me the bear case at the moment is a little bit more prominent uh due to what i described as
rejection of uh major moving averages and losing certain keyibonaccis and also losing a particularly
important trend in this case that we did. So as long as these conditions are not met
the other way around, the probability of a bear case is much much much higher um that's how i see it so in order
for me to start saying okay now um rune has start to trend up bullishly again um it would need to
at least come above like the last high we had which was i think it was 1.682, and then start moving up from there in a, at least five, uh,
wave pattern like Elliot wave, and then come down three waves and then hold the trend line and then
move up from there. Uh, for me, that is pretty much the bare minimum that I need to see in order to
become, or purely on a TA basis to see this chart turning around.
So there would potentially be move up five waves
above 1.652, so maybe retest 3.5,
let's say 3.5, and then move down, retest 2,
and then move up from there, then we have a bull
case, purely from a TA perspective. Now, when I, like I heard you guys mentioning the debt and
stuff like that, yes, you could argue that it's gone, but in a lot of them, again, I speak
from a trader perspective, and perception of a certain asset is at least as important as a chart.
So, yes, it might be gone if you, you know, swipe it under the rug with TCI and all that.
But it's still very much there in the mind of the people, not to mention that the TCI will in, you know, forever take 10% of the protocol's revenue.
So it is some sort of debt, right?
You just, you just kick the can down the road a little bit.
I'm just being completely honest here.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
It's still there.
It's just not actively dragging down the price, right?
And it's not.
The sell pressure.
Yeah, and it's not variable.
Like with authorifying theory, if you wanted to be really conservative, you would assume that 100 million rune can be minted and printed within days.
But that's not going to happen with Tcy.
of TCY.
So, yeah.
So yeah, so it's, but you're right.
But you're right.
So now looking forward, the total valuation,
the enterprise value of door chain
is gonna be the market cap of rune
plus the market cap of TCY, right?
That's gonna be the total value of door chain.
Yes, agreed.
So I suppose we moved a little bit
towards a certain Maya structure here
with the Maya and Kakao bit. So which is not a bad thing,
I mean, not by all means, but like I said, what's really bothering Torchain now from a TA perspective
is that it has lost certain lows and certain Fibonacci ranges. And, you know, market makers
or people with large bags they really
take advances of charts like that I mean they have a saying and I've been saying that in the
trader channel for a very long time it's like bulls they make money bears they make money and
pigs they get slaughtered and I feel that you know the bears are now fully in control and they're
making money I mean everybody's making money on Torchain it's just not the way that you want it right i mean if you look at his chart the
shorters have been making bank on it for for a very long time it might be time for for them to
hand over the uh the stick and uh to the blues again and have them have a shot but from a ta
perspective you know it doesn't look very good,
let's put it like that.
If I didn't know TorChain as much as I do,
and I wasn't so much involved in the community as I am,
and I know so many people, and I know what it stands for,
I would not have bought it from a purely chart perspective.
That is.
Do you think?
That's a really interesting point.
Go ahead. Oh, sorry, Kenton. That's a really interesting oh sorry kenton that's a really
interesting point right if you look at a chart if you look to me that as hugely powerful i think
nordic knight is absolutely correct here but the thing you have to understand is when you invest
time to understand a project like thor chain and if there is a real shift here that's where the
opportunity lies guys okay because the market people who, you can correct me if I'm wrong or not, but they kind
of have to be superficial in their understanding of various protocols. There's just so many
protocols out there. It's hard to have a deep understanding of the fundamentals and the changes
within every single protocol, within every single short, with every single long that you make.
You're sort of, when you're looking at a chart,
you can use, I think, math and various principles to try to determine what's going to happen.
But at a certain point, that is a little superficial in the sense that you're not really seeing the bones, the meat and the potatoes, so to speak, of what's going on.
So the thing that I find interesting is this, the Nordic night, I think has an extremely good ability to understand the wider perception of
what people think of Thor chain.
And so that's,
that's very useful information guys.
And we,
I think we should use that information to affect the way that we do things
in the way that we communicate in the way that we behave and our strategy
overall for,
for Thor chain,
like what Kenton said earlier about removing the cap.
I think this is like the worst,
one of the worst things you can say
from a perception point of view that we could do.
Not necessarily fundamental, forget the fundamentals,
just the perception point of view,
which has a direct effect upon us.
Go ahead, Kenton.
I was just gonna ask Nordic Knight,
do you think um these short sellers
like they're doing this with with all tokens or is it unique to to rune in that they have because
of thor chain's design it's his own dex it's got this huge pool of rune um in the liquidity pools
that the short sellers they know they can't get. So they've got this like huge pool they can always buy from the cover.
And so that gives them more firepower, so to speak, and they can play games.
I don't know if that makes sense or not.
I'm just thinking on the fly.
Um, Oh yeah, sure.
It's like, if you look at the funding rate, like I think it was by bit, it was
minus 0.5 and, uh, Bin Binance was minus 0.3, which is normally,
it's like 0.5 is extreme. You would never see that unless it's like the complete bottom of a
bear market. Otherwise, like in 0.3 is also not very, so the funding, I'm not sure, do you know
what funding rate is? Let's just explain that.
Yeah, so if you play with leverage or you're short or you're long,
you pretty much borrow from the exchange, right?
So if you say like you have a thousand bucks that you want to short with,
then for every eight hours, which is a cycle,
the funding rate depends or uh determines how much
interest you pay right so if you would now actually go long rune uh on binance for say with uh let's
say a thousand bucks um for every eight hour cycle that the funding is negative it means that the
the shorts are paying the longs right so you as a shorter would have to pay 0.3% interest,
right? Or 0.03% interest, and you would get that as you would long, right? So
it is not cheap. It is not free to short, that's what I want to say. It's also not free to long
if in a bull market, but in this case, the shorts are paying the longs.
And that could depend normally that there would be a wipe
because there are so many shorts that they could be squeezed
like a lot.
And then you would get like a short squeeze, really.
So yeah, it is possible.
But the problem is, and I repeat that again,
there really haven't been any high spike volume buys
on Rune, right?
So the most positive volume that I see
when I analyze the charge is pretty much like,
okay, now we've hit a major support
and then you see people closing their shorts, which is pretty much like, okay, now we've hit a major support. And then you see
people closing their shorts, which is pretty much akin to going long because you close your,
and then you have to buy it back. But they buy in profit or they sell in profit because they went
short and now they have to give it back. So you see the price go up a little bit like that.
There hasn't been any indication that bulls are actually actively buying
with large clips, as opposed to where you see that the bears are actually selling
with high volume. So the volume profile, what we see here is still quite bearish.
And that gives shortest confidence, like, okay, you know, if these guys themselves are not buying,
then it's safe for me to short.
I mean, of course, you can rely on, you know,
a couple of large traders that would like to go against these guys that are shorting Rune.
But, you know, they would maybe just be momentarily,
but they wouldn't be probably changing the major aspect of the chart because
they could probably squeeze it, sure.
If you get a short squeeze, you could easily bump it up to 1.7 if there's a couple of guys
with big bags who want to do that.
But going above 1.7, or in this case, let's say 1.7, would mean that the chart itself would change character.
And that takes a lot of guts to do that if they don't know that people are backing them up.
So yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it.
They have free reign.
There's not a lot of people buying.
I think most of the torch at Wales, and I don't mean this in any disrespect or any negative sense
i think the most of the torch ads and the large tor chain whales they are um uncomfortably long
with their own bags already if you know what i mean yeah we've all bought already yeah right so
Yeah. We've all bought already.
Yeah. Right. So now they're hoping for somebody else.
Like, I think it was you Patriot who said this earlier, like,
who's going to buy our bags. You have the same thing now.
Who's going to buy your bag? Like there's,
everybody is so uncomfortably long within the ecosystem right now that at this
price, you know,
they starting to feel a little bit overexposed already maybe.
And because you know, there's a potential downside and that just means that the whales themselves are not
actively pushing the price up either. And that gives a certain amount of overconfidence,
maybe if you want to call it like that, to people who want a short because they know who's going to
do something against it. I totally agree about
everything you're saying. It's very interesting.
I think you're shining a light
on some of the
pressure on the price.
But I just
wanted to... I'm new, so
I'm probably wrong, so correct me.
There are
going to be opportunities for people who buy more Rune
or new people who buy more Rune or anybody who buys more Rune
to provide more liquidity,
and that can be very profitable in terms of APY,
especially with the Rune price so close to its minimum price.
And then the other thing I was going to say
is that people...
When the bull market kicks off again,
then the fundamental value of Rune is going to go up as well and that
but i i do i do totally appreciate you shining a light on on what's happening in the trading
communities and and the um the perps on binance but correct me if i'm wrong like isn't there a
huge opportunity um but for people to to lp and isn't a huge opportunity for people to LP?
And isn't there another opportunity for people to speculate on future legs up in the overall market kind of thing?
Yeah, well, if you look at the overall market in general, I think that there's really no doubt about it
that there only has been one bill market really and that's Bitcoin. To be honest, I mean, the rest has just been going up in
waves but it's pretty much come down to wherever it started from back in 2022 anyway or 2023
what was it when the Bitcoin started to kick off 2023. So, like if you look at BTCD, which is the Bitcoin dominance chart, right?
The last time the boom market really kicked off, Bitcoin dominance was at 73%.
We are now at 62.2% and it really does not seem like it's slowing down yet.
So the dominance part is a major factor here.
And that is something that I've been saying
in the Torch and Trader,
or the Rune Traders chat as well, right?
The problem with the market nowadays is that,
yeah, but people go like, yeah,
but what about the, if the bull market resumes again,
and then everything goes up.
And the thing is what you now witness with Bitcoin is something that hasn't happened before in the future, whereas the most of the liquidity that flows into Bitcoin and it has been forcing it up for the last two years is actually ETFs and people like Saylor, right?
But ETFs are stuck on rails.
But ETFs are stuck on rails.
And what I mean with that is that the liquidity that they put in through the ETFs can't go sideways, right?
So normally you would have the switch from the liquidity flowing into Bitcoin.
And then when Bitcoin peaked, then the dominance would drop.
And then, you know, like a drip down down economy it would flow into the alts and
etc etc but because of the major liquidity flowing into bitcoin is locked and can only
move in or out of bitcoin and not sideways into the alt market you won't be seeing it
as much as you would like to expect like people have been waiting for the alt season for the
last two years still hasn't arrived i don't see it arriving anytime soon either.
Not until at least the United States government starts QE, which is quantitative easing,
where they start to buy assets instead of just selling them off. I don't see that happening
anytime soon. So that's one thing. And like I said, the only people that have been benefiting from this Bitcoin movement is like the Bitcoin OG whales.
And, you know, people who are smart enough to just buy Bitcoin pretty much at the bottom and not any alts.
But, you know, the problem with that is that those people are not very keen on selling their Bitcoin either.
So, you know, there's a liquidity starvation within the alt season
or within the alt space and you can see that pretty much everybody is like evp as you call it
like player versus player and everybody's eating each other and it's cannibalizing everything
and you can clearly see if you look at the alt alt market that there's a ball of liquidity just
rolling around and now the whales are going to focus on this alt, and then they send it up like multiple Xs, and then people think,
ah, now it starts, and then it starts rolling off,
and then they just move somewhere else, right?
So they take the ball, and it just keeps everyone sticking
like that Japanese game on the PlayStation a couple of years back.
So the assumption that saying like the rising tide lifts all boats when it comes to alts and specifically the ones that are, you know, showing signs of weakness like Rune has mostly due to its own making.
Let's be honest.
It's not so easy.
It's not so likely.
Let's put it like that.
Of course, you can say.
Yeah, sorry. Go ahead. yeah, sorry, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead. I thought you were done speaking.
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, especially when you say like, okay, yeah, yeah, there's more chances to provide liquidity. Yeah, you know, I think most people who actively want to, like what I just mentioned
with the shorting and the tradings and the market makers who actually try to you know do something they don't
move on chain that is a bit of your issue or our issue let's put it like that most of that is
happening on the sex and it's not translating at all to to on chain like who cares if somebody buys like a million worth of rune when he just
wants to you know ride along and then dumps it these guys on sex are not holders right so
they're it's just a yeah zero-sum game really i think what you said was the perfect indictment
about uh thorfy about you know the assumption that all tides rise, you know, you know, it rise all ships, right? I think we need to stop using assumptions or these general ideas and trying to expand upon them in the future. And, and as quite Sue, slam Bama and others have said on this stage, you know, like, we need to be really careful and really thoughtful how we go in the future. And I think returning to fundamentals is really going to be our saving grace here.
You know, narratives, I don't think are going to save us.
The one thing I was curious about, I don't know if you touched on this already, Norah, and I don't remember, you know, everything you mentioned are economic primitives that are on sexes.
And this the sex volume is what greatly affects the Rune price.
With something like adding Ruggira, how do you factor that in? How do you,
what's the word I'm looking for? How do you weigh that in terms of Rune performance? If you're
going to have a new different economic primitive with a huge amount of swap volume, where do you
see the green possibilities here when it comes to Ruin?
That's an interesting question, actually. I've touched on that in the super traders chat a
couple of times, actually, more than people like, I suppose. At the moment, Torchain has always been
very prominent in advertising its own real value, right? Which is something I was never in favor of
because nobody else does it.
And who needs to know how much Rune is actually worth
based on TVL, right?
That is one thing.
We might have stopped with that now.
I don't really know.
But, you know, when it comes to the Rune token
as it stands per today,
the liquidity black hole that has become a meme and has been a meme for a very long time has proven not to be effective at all.
So I've often agitated on Twitter.
You probably have seen my posts many times where people like there's a couple of them that, ah, Torchain runs these numbers
and transactions and runs so many fees and all that kind of stuff.
You know, explain to me once and for all, maybe I don't understand how that translates
into the room price.
To me, I don't see it.
You can probably argue like, yeah, you get higher fees and it makes it more beneficial for nodes to bond in and you get this node war and stuff like that.
And that has been a narrative for as long as I can remember really.
But let's be honest, it doesn't work.
So for me to say, okay, you have Ruggiero and it's going to drive up fees and all that kind of stuff might work, maybe.
But to me, the value capture of the fees from corechain does not directly translate to rune,
but more to TCI.
And how that would affect the price of rune, to be honest, I'm not quite sure.
How that would affect the price of Rune, to be honest, I'm not quite sure, unless you
move everything into the on-chain itself and remove every single Rune from the sex and
have it purely reflect the TVO.
Because in my opinion, and it has always been like that, is that the only true driver of
the Rune price is the TVO.
It has always been like that.
And the higher the security model was, in this case,
Patriot Sounds, you know that if you have the 131, right, or the 121 factor, you know, the higher
that is, the more theoretically one Bitcoin in TVO would affect the room price. If you lower that, then of course it will negatively affect the room price. Yes.
So for me, I don't see any particular reason as to how more fees or how more transactions would
translate into higher room price unless the protocol attracts more TVL. That's the only
way thing I see it. There's no real value capture unless you want to more TVO. That's the only way thing I see it.
There's no real value capture
unless you want to focus on hype.
And then you come into the discussion
that we prefer organic growth.
Then yeah, okay.
End of that discussion, I suppose.
Interesting.
The thing that Boone brought this up,
he was talking about the exploited funds
that went through ThorChain.
And there seems, as far as I could tell,
there seems to be a commensurate relationship between swap volume also and the
price of Rune when it's really, really high. I mean, we had a billion dollar day, right?
So I hear what you're saying. I'm not sure. I mean, TVL is important for sure. 100% I agree.
But I do believe there is much growth potential with just a simple formula
of using swap volume. Our swap volume, relative to what it was a few years ago, has been exponential
in its growth. But there is so much room here. And Mocha's not here either. But that's an entirely
different economic primitive with a whole different use case that is bound in the real
world, not just blockchain. Because let's be real, everyone up here, we're kind of siloed somewhat because we understand the ecosystem of
blockchain, but the vast majority of the population is still not there. I still think, my gut tells
me we're so very early. We're so, so very early. Because if you have primitives, economic primitives like Ruggiero, Mocha,
and other new things that I'm not even aware yet, the zero to one is just a better system to be
used. And there is going to be price appreciation on that front of loan. But I definitely do
appreciate what you're saying. And I think I have learned a lot from your perspective, because
what you're saying does make sense to me on an intuitive level um but i just think it for me there's so many variables it's it's difficult to parse exactly i think it's
multifaceted was what i'm driving okay i want to jump in and ask nordic knight a question if um
if somebody was buying 50 to 100 million dollars worth of rune per year and putting it in storage, would that drive the price up, do you think?
Yeah, as long as
you get it off the
centralized exchanges, yes.
But there's also another thing, which
I noticed, and I really
haven't been able to put my finger on, and maybe
somebody here could explain it to me.
Whenever TorChain had an outage
and was not actively
running our bots with onchain and the sex, the price on sex usually went up. So that to me is
funny. I mean, you would expect that the people on sexes would actually have more of a bearish bias.
But it actually seems that once ThorChain is not actively influencing the price on sex either,
the price on sex goes up.
So you have to ask yourself, where does that come from?
I think I can answer it. It's because if they can't close, because if the Thorchain pools are acting as a source of capital for them to buy the closer short, if we close off that giant pool of capital for them to access, the shorts are probably de-risking, knowing, oh, shoot, I can't tap into that at will.
So I'm going to close my position.
And that drives the price up.
Yeah, that could be, for sure.
It's something that I've been working or thinking about,
well, not actively, but it sometimes pops up in my head.
But it's an interesting correlation that I really haven't been quite able to quantify yet.
But yeah.
And then I want to...
Like I said... Oh, okay, sorry, go yeah. And then I want to... Like I said...
Oh, okay, sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead, sorry.
I was just going to say, when I asked you if somebody buying 50 to 100 million worth of
Rune putting in cold storage, if that would drive the price up, it's because that's the
point I'm trying to make about the revenue going to 50 to 100 million.
about the revenue going to 50, 100 million,
that's buying Rune and it's delivering that Rune
to the pools and the nodes.
And in a sense, going in the cold storage, right?
The bond providers aren't selling that Rune.
It's going into liquidity pools, it's not being sold.
That's going to the liquidity providers, right?
So I get it that Rune can eventually be sold someday,
but in the moment, it's no different
than somebody buying and moving it to cold storage.
It has the same effect on the price.
Yeah, no, that's true.
I agree with that.
So of course, like the whole principle, the bond wars, right?
Or the node wars in this case.
Like I said, the assumption has been that the node wars in this case um like like i said the assumption
has been that the moment that we get more tvl you will need to have more rune bonded like you guys
are doing right now it's pretty much like a bond war not because of there's you know too much uh
tvl that wants in it's really much because of you know the price of rune not holding up
much because of the price of Rune not holding up. So it's kind of a negative sort of node war,
if you will. But that was always, in my opinion, the main liquidity black hole meme, if you will,
that would have driven the price of Rune up eventually. So yeah, what you say is completely
true. If you bond more to a node and you get that off the market, especially the sex, so it doesn't provide ammunition for market makers who want to manipulate the price, then yeah, it would have had a positive effect.
But there's still this thing with the chart itself that makes it easy for these people to manipulate price even
more, right? I can see some signs of exhaustion on the price already. So unless Bitcoin really
craps out, I do think we are hitting a bottom. I don't think we're going lower as long as Bitcoin,
bottom. I don't think we're going lower as long as Bitcoin, well, not lower than one, maybe 70
cents for that matter, unless Bitcoin, if Bitcoin holds and goes to 150K, I don't see that happening.
If it does not, then yes, there's more downside to be had. But like I said, the chart is
lending itself really. We have maneuvered ourselves into position where
chart is very weak and it's very easy to make um uh you know use of when you're when you want to go
short yeah yeah no it makes sense that that happens in all with all markets and all stocks
right and some you get periods where the bears are in control short sellers are in control they can
You get periods where the bears are in control, short sellers are in control.
They can move their price on us for sure.
Not the case, especially with the raise the bond campaign we're doing.
We've been a lot of success.
Increasing swap volume, meaning more fees.
And right now, people who bond their rune, they're getting a decent return in rune in nominal terms of the amount of rune they get, right?
nominal terms of the amount of room they get, right? So if the goal is to remove Binance rune,
right? Is it not true that if we just not only increase the swap volume, but get more people
bonded into ThorChain, which de facto makes these people long-term holders because churning out is
a significant barrier to removing one's rune. So they are committed to at least staying for
a decent amount of time.
Is it not the case by just increasing the swap volume on ThorChain that the arbitrage between sexes and ThorChain itself,
I mean that is ruin that's being abstracted away from sexes and given to
nodes, BPs and people in liquidity pools.
Is this not a problem that can self-correct if we get the swap volume up yeah like that that's
so because remember the fees you get a beep are paid in rune that rune's got to come from somewhere
right so um if we're buying up all the rune in the pools it arbs need to replace it with rune
from the centralized exchanges so um as the revenue on ThorChain goes up,
we're buying more and more rune to deliver to bond providers and LPs.
It's got to come from somewhere, right?
And it's going to slowly suck the rune off of the centralized exchanges.
So it's just going to take time, but it will happen. So the higher the revenue goes and the quicker it goes up,
the sooner we suck that rune off of centralized exchanges.
Right.
And the people who are getting rewards in rune,
our BPs are long-term holders who are people who believe in the project.
And that's why, guys, again, I want to call it out.
Slam Bammer is up here. He is a new
node operator. He's taken up the gauntlet. He's put forth the effort. So if there's anyone in here
who's interested in bond providing, who's not done it, I highly recommend DMing him and reaching out
because, again, we want to take every opportunity we can to make sure that we're increasing the
amount of node operators, which increases the decentralization of this network, which ultimately makes things like Regera more secure
too, regardless of the security budget. That's completely abstracted away from this conversation.
We want to make ThorChain as hard as possible. So I like what we're doing here, Kenton. I like
the fact that the Raise the Bond campaign, and I'm just becoming more and more convinced that I
really want to try your strategy of just getting the interfaces themselves to advertise to their own user base.
I think that is a very clear – that's a really clear path forward.
Yeah, but my opinion is the easiest, most obvious.
We're going to focus, especially money, on doing anything.
Focusing – that's where it should be done have you had any success
reaching out like what is the progress we should probably we should probably
say that for a whole other space but I am making progress I had a meeting the
other day I've got a bunch lined up for tomorrow on Tuesday. So, yeah, let's save that.
It's moving forward.
How about let's leave it there, and then we can talk another day.
But I kind of interrupted Nordic Night again.
I don't know if you had more to say or add to your thoughts.
No, well, I'm open for questions.
I mean, like the stuff that I usually look at, like I said,
I feel that there's somewhat of a disconnect between the way that I look at Torchain versus the people who are really, you should be for the space you know i i'm behind that don't get me wrong
uh but like i said i'm trying to stand a little bit on both ends with feet in both worlds if you
know what i mean so this is the reason why i've been able to um predict predict not always perfectly but pretty decently the price action of Rune in the
past. I'm not sure if you remember but I also called the last bear market bottom at 80 cents
when everybody pretty much told me I was fucking nuts. I probably am fucking nuts but I was right
anyway. So but you know what I'm trying to say, if you have any questions
about charting and how that potentially affects
the Rune ecosystem and stuff, it's
just something I've been doing for a very long time.
So if you have any questions, just hit me up,
and I will be glad to answer them either here now
or later if you come up with anything.
You can always reach out. Well, I do have a question for you. So especially if someone's hearing you come up with anything, like you can always reach out.
Well, I do have a question for you.
So like, you know, especially if someone's
hearing you for the first time, I'm thinking like,
why the hell do you have this guy up
talking so negatively about Rune, right?
And like, what is, like it's, like nothing goes straight,
goes up in a straight line, right?
Markets go up and down.
Rune prices will be no different.
But I'm curious, NeurIgnite,
if you've got a negative outlook on Rune right now
and you're not so sure, what keeps you engaged?
Like, why are you involved in 4Chain
and Rune to begin with?
What's your big picture outlook here?
Are you just a masochist?
Are you just here to troll or is it,
do you do believe in the future of Rune and Thorchain?
Like what's, yeah, what's your-
No, no, no.
Like I've been involved with the community
for a very long time.
And like I said, for me, there's a very clear distinction
in being bullish on a ideology, which I am,
which is Thoruring in my opinion
i agree with patriot sounds it is you know revolutionary and it should be um the thing
that we need for for the entire crypto space that hasn't changed so when it comes to this ideology
of what what torsion is and what what should be, I am very bullish.
But that doesn't mean that I let somebody else steal the cheese of my sandwich, if you know what I mean.
So I approach it with two mindsets.
Like, yes, I want to be involved in this.
Yes, I want this to succeed.
But the moment I see, okay, this is not going the
way that we want it.
I'm taking my chips off the table and I'm looking to enter lower because I never, I
will always be a part of the community and I will never like be completely out.
It doesn't mean that I'm just going to sit there and take these losses because, you
know, there's a difference in difference in you know having a strong ideology
and just being you know passive and non-reactive and having your your money stolen i'm not the kind
of person that would like to have my money stolen that's pretty much it you know i i'm bearish on
the price but not on what it stands for there's there's a large difference yeah you're a rational
actor you're a rational actor and i'm really glad i've got to talk with you because i've been
interacting with you on on you know in text before before. And I've always liked you. But I really enjoy talking with you because there's a depth to a person you cannot discover until you actually have a back and forth dialogue with them. So you are a very deep thinker and very interesting. And the one thing that I want to make clear is you never have to apologize for giving a bearish outlook or maybe
saying something negative because we do not believe in censorship here. We believe in all
ideas are open on the table. And if someone has something negative to say, I welcome them. Because
if I have a bullish outlook and you have a negative one, we need to collide a little bit
and figure out where the bits are true because there's a disconnect that can only be resolved
by the exchange of our ideas. So I think I've learned a lot with just talking to you.
And I appreciate a lot better where you're coming from.
That my understanding not only of you has been superficial.
So I'm very thankful here.
So please never apologize.
If you ever have a bearish idea or if you have a concern, speak.
Because I think this community is one of the best when it comes to just ruthless meritocracy and embracing ideas and just open exchange of dialogue.
Yeah, thanks. I appreciate that.
I haven't been paying attention. Has anyone been raising their hand? Anybody else want to speak?
I had Shapeshift. I don't know. He might have technical issues. I've been trying to bring you up, man.
I'm not sure what's going on there,
but you can keep requesting. I can try and get you up here.
If any other speakers want to chime in, please do.
Or if anyone else wants to come and speak up again, negative,
positive question, open forum guys. We're here to just chat about anything.
We're not scared of any topic.
Yeah. I think it's, I think it's good.
It's healthy to talk about the bear case and whatever, like, you know,
we don't, I think, I think people talking about how do we rebuild brand,
rebuild trust, rebuild community. It's about being honest, right?
If we're just sitting here lying to ourselves and only trying to talk about
the good and ignoring any of the bad, it would just, that doesn't,
doesn't help, doesn't work.
So Nordic is gonna call how he sees it.
And conversely, so let's say he's right.
Let's say, you know, room price is weaker for longer,
but then it does turn around and he flips bullish.
Well, that'll be great.
It'll be a good sign, right?
Cause like, okay, this guy's got a good track record.
He's been calling it pretty good. Now he's bullish. I'm like, oh man, now we have something
really to latch onto. And if you are wrong, Nordic Knight, if this is the bottom and we go higher,
it's so good to have this conversation and explore the possibilities, all the potentials.
I just always talk about going up, up, up.
It can never go down.
It doesn't good.
It doesn't serve anybody, right?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't go down
unlimitedly either.
I mean, I outlined two bullish cases
on the chart itself as well,
like yesterday and today.
I think those are still valid.
I also do think it
very much depends on uh on the state of the market in general with with btc like will it
will it actually remain bullish or will it you know uh retest some lows i can potentially see
it going back to like 40 000 40 000 so it's it's insane to think that you know
$40,000. So it's insane to think that any altcoin would be able to resist that. It just won't
happen. But it's on edge. And like I said, if it does go up, I mean, if it manages to pivot over
here, I can potentially see $150,000. I'm just going to be easy easy going with that we're going to get a 2x if it flips here we're going to get a 2x uh approximately on bitcoin so yeah sure we could we could definitely
go up if that happens but like i said the control is now not in ruin because it's so manipulated
the market needs to swing up again because now there's a lot of fear and indecisiveness
swing up again, because now there's a lot of fear and indecisiveness, rightfully so,
I suppose. Once that happens, I would just recommend if you're bullish on Rune, just
buy Rune. I mean, if you don't want people to short this, the only thing you can do is
buy, right? Make them pay for what they're doing and what they have been doing for such
a long time. I mean, the moment you see that that bitcoin starts to swing
up and then you see like okay now we're approaching let's see what pivot is here um i would i would
definitely say we're going to 150 000 if we manage to close above uh would be 96 000 or maybe 100
000 if we manage to close above there um ruin might already be like 1.6 but you know if you manage to close above there um rune might already be like 1.6 but you
know if you're bullish on it it might go even higher but like i said if you're bullish on it
and you see the market swinging upwards just buy rune i mean make those guys pay i like i i said
on my twitter many times and in a super uh traders chat as well i am very good at ta but there if
there's one thing i don't do that's shorting because I am a very moral person
and I do not wanna make money out of negativity or suffering.
So I never short myself,
but I will give people shorting opportunities
if they want to do it.
But I use it more to find myself a new entry, if you will,
instead of making money on the way down
because I just don't think that's the right thing to do. But yeah, if you're, instead of, you know, making money on the way down, because I just don't think
that's the right thing to do. But yeah, if you're bullish on Torchain and you see the market swinging
up, then just buy it. I mean, that's the easiest thing you can do. Okay. Can I ask you this? What
circumstance, and Eric, I'm sorry, I saw your hand up. I just want to ask one more question and we'll
go to you. What circumstance would cause the nordic knight to just be like
because it sounds like you're a swing trader you can correct me if i'm wrong you know you're buying
low selling high right what what scenario in your mind would would just make you be a long-term
holder and say you know what this thing's got great potential i'm stopping here i'm holding
or maybe that's not your strategy oh it is for sure my strategy i mean there's some stuff that you know
bitcoin you know you should just buy bitcoin very simple um but for when it comes to rune i suspect
for me that to happen and i don't want to point out anything in particular but
some people need to be less active on twitter that will be one thing because that
for me is a major red flag that i do not i am not thing is like i can't i can't predict charts very
well but i cannot predict uh uncertainties and some people have a tendency to say or do certain things that I cannot fully chart in, and I don't like that.
But that would be one thing. The other thing would be, if I see that it holds a bottom in one,
then I'm probably not going to sell it until it reaches at least nine, I think. Or maybe not even
sell it at all. That could could be it but i need to see
to form a decent bottom that i can depend on and then then i would be a holder like probably forever
if some people can manage to you know get rid of their phone or their twitter account
i understand yeah reasonable position um eric i want to give you a chance, sir. You had your hand raised up earlier.
Yes, but I kind of didn't want to steer the conversation somewhere else. So I just want to ask you, Kenton.
You mentioned something about some marketing efforts with other interfaces and stuff like that. I just gave you a follow.
I would appreciate it if you can follow me back because I am going to be pushing a new
launch of a Thorechain interface, well, a cross-chain interface called MoCA.
So if we can coordinate and see where we can collaborate to to push a torching at 13 adoption through uh
that usage that would be great yeah we can talk offline at patriot sounds as mentioned mentioned
you before right this is a mocha yes you've been talked about patriot yes yeah for sure yeah i'm
gonna help you too yeah for sure hey kentonon, that's actually caused me to think of something.
I think you said you're definitely going to the BTC conference.
I'm going there too.
I think this might be a great opportunity for us in person, enough spaces, X space,
like let's actually get talking to people.
I think TrustWallet, all the big interfaces are going to be at BTC.
I think we should probably think about,
I don't want to use the word pitch because that sounds cheap, but reaching out to them and forming
that human bond and discussing like, hey, you guys are making good money, but what do you think?
Let's take it to the next level here. What do you think of that, Kenton?
Yeah, for sure. I got to talk to familiar cow about this
too. But that's definitely, that's definitely part of the process. Absolutely. We got to get,
you know, we want them on board to help do this too. But I'm trying to think of ways, even if they
flat out aren't interested, don't want to cooperate, they'll still do it anyway. So I'm
just thinking about those scenarios too.
But I kind of want to formulate a plan and have an idea, something to bring to them
as opposed to just, hey, you want to market?
Like I want to actually have some meat
to put on the plate for them to kind of like,
here's the idea, this is a vision.
Something to sell to them, to get them to do it.
Yeah, yeah, makes sense.
If anyone else is going to BTC
Las Vegas, I appreciate you reach out to me. I'd like to meet you in person. I'm a real person. I
breathe, I eat, I drink, I sleep, I do all that stuff. I'm not just this weird avatar with Patriot
sounds. You know what I mean? Please reach out to me. I want to meet more people. I don't care
if you're Mocha, Maya Protocol. I think I've met all the Maya Protocol dads at this point.
Met Nine Realms, of course, but just ordinary people, or maybe you're just coming in to this ecosystem of Ujira,
ThorChain, Maya Protocol. Let's form a human connection. Let's meet, because I just really
think magic happens. I find myself more engaged, more committed when I speak to people that I've
actually met in real life. And there's just something that's irreplaceable about that.
So please reach out if you can.
I just got shape shift on the stage.
I don't know if you wanted to say something.
Please address the comments section.
My mic is rubbing every time I come on stage.
So yeah.
It's even worse than before.
Totally. Look at the comment section even worse than before. Totally.
Look at the comment section.
Please for myself and others.
I can't hear anything.
Can you hear anything, Patriot?
I'll do that right now.
Thanks for the reminder.
That's fine.
Something I wanted to add,
maybe I guess maybe
share with people my views,
my outlook.
How do I say this?
I need a disclaimer.
I could be wrong.
How about this?
The way I'm viewing it, I think Rune is bottoming right now.
And I think we are going into an altcoin, Bitcoin, the final stages of the bull market.
I think it's tied to the liquidity cycle.
You guys have probably seen everyone's posting the M2 money supply to the Bitcoin price chart
and how it leads.
So I think crypto is largely driven by liquidity, by cheap, easy, free money floating
around. And by crypto, I mean risk assets. So we've been in a period of quantitative tightening,
which means risk assets in general are weak. And then once we move to quantitative easing, all that extra
free money sloshing around spills over into risk assets, i.e. crypto. So I don't from,
and I agree with Nordic, like this last, maybe we've been in a bull market this last year in
Bitcoin, but like it's only been really in some select few altcoins, like as an overall sector, there hasn't really been any kind of bull market.
And even in Bitcoin in general, like I don't see any real euphoria to really mark a top.
You know, usually if you get a, with a full blown bull market, you get some pretty obvious signs.
I don't, I don't really see that personally.
So I still think we have some room in front of us. And why is quantitative easing going to start?
It's because governments, not just US government, Japanese governments around the world,
they have a lot of debt they got to roll over and they can't or they don't want to refinance that debt at such high interest rates.
So you may have heard this in like in the US, interest rates are really high.
So nobody's moving because nobody wants to get a new mortgage at a higher interest rate.
at a higher interest rate. They want to keep their current mortgage at the low rate they have.
They want to keep their current mortgage at the low rate they have.
So housing supply has been kind of stuck. Nobody wants to refinance a mortgage.
It's the exact same thing multiplied a thousand times over with governments.
They don't want to refinance their debt at these higher interest rates
because the interest expense would be that much higher.
So I believe politics are going to get involved and find ways to push rates down,
introduce quantitative easing to make the government debt cheaper to refinance, which in
turn will make people's mortgages cheaper to refinance and everything else cheaper to refinance, which in turn will make people's mortgages cheaper to refinance and everything else cheaper to
refinance and that money will slosh around and find its way
into the markets. So that's, for me, I look things at more from
a macro view. That's how I'm looking at it, going forward.
Yeah, I think that's reasonable um to it to address um shapeshift's concern about the comments
um you know i'll just swing through them real quick max powers made a few comments you know
the sentiment is very bipolar on thor chain um yeah i think that's true and not necessarily
bipolar in terms of swinging emotions but there's definitely two camps here um and that we have to
work on that we have to fix that so i I agree with Max. And then some people suggested that, you know, maybe we can
consider rebranding Thorchain to, you know, to maybe reset it. I don't know if that would work.
I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad idea, but ultimately I think as people alluded here,
Thorchain is going to disappear in the background. And really not many people know about Thorchain.
Let's be real.
I mean, the people who know about it have strong opinions one way or the other,
but we are still very much unknown.
Kenton made a really great introduction video to Thorchain,
I think about a year, year and a half ago now.
He just shows that the dex volume relative to the dex volume is still so tiny.
I mean, guys, we're so early.
But definitely an idea there that we
could consider um and then there was another one here give me one moment um at the space i'm
thinking at least at least try to grow you know deliver on on our growth see how that goes and
if we're finding you know it's really hard to shake the past then fine maybe maybe rebrand because that that's really
the point of getting a new name and starting over that way is that you're trying to kind of
you're trying to distance yourself from your past right um i don't know if it's
i don't know i think that's something that we can consider later on you know if it's yeah you know i i i think we can write this ship guys um like we righted the ship pretty well when
it came to the next points of 2021. some people just don't will never understand that that was
kind of the point of chaos net um but uh like kenton said earlier i think the price just going
up is ultimately the main motivator for people to get excited about an ecosystem.
And I think we're doing all the right things right now, which is going to take a little time.
So I know a lot of people are, I've seen a lot of impatience and I hate using that word
impatience because I think it's kind of denigrating to you because we've all been through a lot and
everyone's been extremely patient here. But I would just say, if we could just reset your mind
a little bit, now that we've kind of gone through the ringer on Thorpey and everything else, and we kind of have a new vision, kind of reset your expectations and realize, like, going forward, we're doing something different here.
I think the unity and cohesion of our ecosystem has never been stronger.
Yeah, and this is basically like a bear market right now.
Not just Star Chain, it's all crypto.
Sentiment is negative across the board.
And it's just amplified for us because of the problems we've had the last couple of months.
But give it another three months.
Look at how much has changed in the last three months.
A lot can change in the next three months.
We all tend to get myopic and recency bias.
We get tunnel vision and we think the future is going to be the immediate past.
But things can change very quickly.
Just look what we did, Kenton.
Two weeks ago, we started the Bond Your Rune campaign.
We, you know, and everyone took on,
everyone's been doing such a great job.
People have actually been even more aggressive than myself at promoting it.
And you know you are.
It's been great.
I've seen many good people.
We have TCY Bull, new account.
Change can happen
very quick if we put forth the effort, guys. So two weeks ago, I thought we were kind of
rudderless a little bit. We just seem to have this. I mean, we're 103 nodes, right? We're
going to be 103 nodes. And as Kenton said earlier, we have up to 110. Let's go for 120, guys. This
is a sentiment shift. you're watching in real time
um and you've heard what the nordic knight has had to say about what the ti ta says now
um let's let's reset let's change the the narrative and like and i've i've been noticing
too with with bond providers um i've been getting some first time people first time
bond providers never done it before people pulling pulling their ruin off of Binance that has been sitting there for a
couple of years.
And people topping up.
People buying more ruin to add to their bond.
So those are, you know, in my mind, those are all bullish,
especially like how bad the negative sentiment is on.
Those things are happening.
And every little bit counts right like if you've got 10,000 rune on Binance get it off get it in a node every little bit counts yeah so it is it is working and
throw out a little copium copium if you are bullish long term on rune and Thorchain, then the low rune price is great for bonding.
So if you bond your rune, you're going to earn more rune per dollar swapped because the rune price is lower.
So the APY is higher.
So when the price does recover, your rune stack is going to be that much bigger and heavier.
So when the price does recover, your rune stack is going to be that much bigger and heavier.
So, you know, it's almost like, you know, like the link Marines are famous for footing their own bags.
But like, if you're truly a Thor, like a rune bull, then like, you don't mind the low price now if you're bonded because your stack is getting fatter.
I feel so dumb not bonding my rune. I'm sorry, I can't tell you how to let you go. I feel so dumb not bonding my room i'm sorry i can't tell let you go i feel so
dumb not bonding my room earlier my free room you guys not lp but i should have bonded my room
this is me owning myself i am mentally retarded for not bonding my room i have no idea why i
didn't do it go ahead kenton well i mean to help defend you, I think the risks with the synth leverage, it was, I mean, a theory piece should have understood it, but I don't think anybody understood it well enough to appreciate them.
But anyway, it's hindsight, right?
2020.
I wanted to bring up TCY. TCY bull. We'll be remiss if we
don't talk about its price. But I still think TCY can do really well. Maybe my default is positive
and let's hope for the best. I still feel like the TCY holders have a really good chance
of being made whole.
And so I just put together a little model.
If we have a starting point of $30 million a year revenue on ThorChain, and it grows,
and you model in a revenue growing 18% a year, so that after 10 years, we're at $133 million in revenue.
After 20 years, $700 million in revenue.
That gives you NPV, net present value of 5% of a dollar TCY.
Net present value at 10% discount is $0.55 TCY.
So I don't know if that means anything to anybody, but in my opinion, those are very
conservative numbers. Yeah, I like ThorChain is already on par to be have 56 million revenue this
year, not 35 million. So, you know, that revenue could grow much faster. And so let me just throw in, say, growing at 25% a year.
Your net present value, 5% discount, gives you a TCY price of $226.
At a 10% discount, I get $1.13.
And again, if we're growing, if storeain's revenue is growing at 25% a year, after 10 years, that puts us at 225 million.
And after 20 years, 2 billion, which I don't think is that crazy.
Like I actually, the whole reason I'm invested in Rune is I think we're going to get a billion revenue well within the next 10 years. So yeah, when you use pretty conservative growth rates on door chain's
revenue and you discount the Tcy revenues to what Tcy should trade at, you can get to a dollar or more pretty quick. So
I'm pretty hopeful for TCUI holders because I'm hopeful on ThorChain's growth,
on us consistently growing revenue over time.
Yeah. I don't even think that's so much of an optimistic outlook as a pretty, pretty measured and conserved outlook, because you guys seen the growth that we've had in the past.
It's been absolutely exponential. And right now we're in this phase where, you know, there's just a little negativity out there.
But if you expand your mind and think long term, like what we're trying to do here and the new things that are coming along.
think long-term like what we're trying to do here and the new things that are coming along i mean
i i always sound like a permable it is what it is but that's i'm i'm online with kenton here i'm
i'm feeling very good about this so um to to speak to the nordic knight i i have been buying
rune i've never owned as much room as i own right now and i'm going to keep buying it um uh because
i i firmly believe guys but um you know all of you guys we all can do this together
i mean and we are so let's just keep doing what we're doing because i think it's a winning strategy
are we running out of things to talk about anybody else want to jump up are we
man yeah yeah um we went with three holy smokes. I think we should. It goes by quick.
It actually does.
I think it's funny because I've talked to people about this privately.
We're like, you know, we're all neck deep in ThorChain.
And we have no one else to talk to about it.
Right?
Our friends and family, they don't care.
Right?
And so we just have each other.
That's probably why we can all go so long on this.
Because we have no one else really to talk about uh thortain with so um which for me it gives me some hope that there's that many passionate interested people you know working on
this so um it's always a pleasure doing this with these with you patriot
likewise sir and and all the other speakers Boone's a free guest 13 heavens
Eric I love I love it guys and Nordic nine I'm so glad you you came up here and I think maybe
have been doing this regularly where we can see like you know you come back give us your new
analysis based on market dynamics or sentiment shift or whatever I think I think that'd be
really useful I want to give slam Slam Bamer, because we've
been going for hours, guys, and he's talked in the very beginning and a little bit throughout,
but I want to give you another opportunity to promote yourself, guys, because remember,
we've been calling new people to become node operators, so important for the decentralization
of the network. Slam Bamer has been a member of this community since 2021. I recognize his name very well.
You are a new node operator, sir.
Could you give people just a quick rundown of your terms,
what you're accepting and your fee and everything like that?
Yeah, sure.
Thanks a lot.
So, yeah, as Patriot was saying, I've been part of ThorChain since 2021.
As Patriot was saying, I've been part of ThorChain since 2021.
In the ChaosNet days, I dabbled in all ThorChain products, savers, liquidity providing, and that's where I have all my crypto.
I'm a very strong believer in the mission and the product of ThorChain.
At the beginning of this year, I made the decision to play a more active role in the recovery of ThorChain.
I really do believe in it, and I want to see it reach its previous heights.
So I've started up a node. Again, I started crypto in the background.
My background was in Ethereum mining, so I had some experience there.
so I had some experience there. I'm accepting all sizes of bonds ideally above 1000 rune but
you know I'm passionate about helping people get started in this space so just reach out to me if
you have any questions and I'm happy to support you you know going through your first bond.
Currently my fee is 15% and I've got my nodes ready to churn in. I'm just accruing
bond now. So yeah, any questions
at all, happy to help you get started
in this space. Just reach out.
What's the
best way to reach out to you? On Twitter?
Telegram?
Yeah, so Twitter
and Discord. I'm SlamBammer
on both. I've been talking
in the Dev discord as well
um yeah i'll respond to you on telegram as well um slam bammer on on all three platforms
and i'm so sorry maybe i cut out there um what's the minimum bond offer that you um accept again
so i ideally uh a thousand run.
However, look, if you're really passionate and you just want to get started
and get your head around it, reach out.
I'm happy to help.
Appreciate that, man.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I cut out there.
That was probably me.
So sorry if you had to repeat that.
Okay, guys, let's do another call to the audience.
Please share the space.
I want people to listen to this recording.
It's a long one,
but I think a lot of people who are into our ecosystem,
they love the content and they like, you know, they go for a drive,
they work at the gym. They just like to hear this stuff, um,
to get a general sense of everything that's going on.
So please share the space.
If someone up here wants to come up and speak in the audience,
please do all opinions, everything.
If you think I'm doing something good or bad or i'm smart or i'm stupid
i don't care i want your input um the challenge only makes me better so please come and say what
you're going to say but if no one else does i um you know we can't think about wrapping i think so
i'm in it for longer i think we wrap i've got in yeah i think we wrap it up i don't think if
no one else is coming up as i can say i think i think we put it up. I don't think if no one else is coming up, as I said, I think,
I think we put a pin in it.
Yeah.
Okay.
So guys,
if we're going to wrap this up,
I just remind people that raise the bond campaign is still in full swing.
Please bond your room.
Kenton is a node operator.
Also,
you know,
definitely think,
think about slam Bama.
We want to get him going.
There's a lot of node operators out there, you know, do your own due diligence. It's not hard
to do. Reach out. We're going to get this node count up. We want to get as much security into
the system as possible. That makes Thor chain stronger. And I want to hit that 120. I want to
hit that so bad. I know we can do it. And I want bond wars to happen for real. This is so doable.
We are going to do it. So keep going. I'm continuously adding room to my bond. I'm
pretty allocated now, but whenever I buy, I just sling a little bit more in there. You can always
add actively if you are a bond provider. So keep it going, guys. Energy's been great. And again,
I can't emphasize how much I appreciate all of you for stepping up.
This has been a wonderful thing.
Um, and if you've never bond provided, please think about it.
Reach out to me.
It's so easy guys.
It's not hard to do.
It's, it's really simple.
And, um, as Kenton said in earlier spaces, you know, and I'm sure slam bammer is the
same way you reach out to them.
If you've got questions, concerns, nuances, you're not sure how they would respond in certain positions, they're more than willing to talk to you and break down
their ethos, what they believe, you know, in what circumstances they're going to make certain
decisions, you know, whatever you want to do or ask, just reach out to them. That's the first
step. So please just click their name right now, send them a DM and get the process started if
you're thinking about it. And one more thing, if you have some
technical skill, again, we've had dozens of people, I've sent them to Runtard. If you're
interested in becoming a node operator, if you think you can handle it, or if you want to try
it, learn Kubernetes. Yes, it is technically complex. I'm not going to lie, but the world
needs you. We need you. This ecosystem needs you. Please try it. Give it a shot. It's free to try.
You know what I mean? And if you think you can do it, just like Slam Bamber, I'm going to promote
you. I'm going to try and get you BPs and I'm going to get you turned in and you can make some
decent money doing this. And you're not only making decent money, you're decentralizing the
network and you're doing an overall good thing for all the ecosystems not just thor chain but
rugira as well henton can you think of anything else hashtag raise the bond
that's it yeah raise the bond bond your room buy more rune raise the bond love it
Raise the bond.
Love it.
You said it well, man.
you said it well man um i think that's great thanks everybody
I think that's great.
Thanks, everybody.
Everyone have a great Sunday or Monday morning from part of the world.
Bless you all.
Thank you guys so much.
You all take care.
Bye.
Cheers. Thank you.
