Hey, hey GM, GM. What's up Chad? What's up? Door Chads? How's it going guys?
what's going on man anything anything new anything new anything new is always
new stuff there's always new stuff um I don't know what do you want to talk
about first we can hop into in a minute we could just let's see I've been
working on a couple pairs of shoes I haven't done any any Thor forces in a
while but finally shipping out a couple pairs horses yeah man I yeah I yeah I
went to a like I moved a little while back so like I don't have my whole
secret workshops it up anymore so there's probably my last my last ones
for a while had some outstanding orders ahead to get shipped out but now now I'm
in the clear yeah yeah yeah that's awesome man appreciate that it's cool
like honestly like it's pretty crazy knowing how many like countries and
stuff like I've shipped these two just like you know all across the US but not
you know over like a dozen countries I'm pretty sure shouldn't see like every
every corner of the globe it's kind of crazy I mean I just do you still sell
them like if somebody wanted to buy a pair of four fourth ones for me would
you would you make them and ship them I do but I well it's a lot harder for me
now that I don't have like a dedicated like area to do it in so I'm trying to
try to ramp it down which which I had been doing like the last last like year
or so I've done a couple orders but you know nothing not nothing too much I
would do it if if if some big Thor chads want it done and I do it but the wait
time is a lot longer than it used to be you just you just got to get some like
some slave labor Taiwan to be pumping this shit out that's what you got to be
doing dad I don't know if the markets that big to contract people like that
yeah yeah but then also you could do instead of Thor force ones you can do
like flip chain flip force ones or something yeah I think that's an even
more niche market that has yet to be tapped yet hey maybe I'll I'll talk to
them and see if they're doing it but you could I mean there's gonna be some other
cool with or train marks definitely gonna have to happen I mean one thing
I've really wanted to do for like a couple years now is the the Thor Rolex I
think that's gonna have to be a thing maybe like this year next year or
something yeah I think someone roll it a couple years back like Photoshop the
it's a couple years back someone I saw like a photo shops like like Submariner
what but the dial is like you know like a black dial that says like you know
Thor chain on it and like a the gradient Thor chain color as the bezel and I was
like oh that's like that's super nice I and I would actually be a Rolex but I
would know you know we'll see if it's actually a like I don't think it'd be a
Rolex because you could do custom face I've looked into this actually and you
can do custom faces and stuff but like people who like really collect watches
they don't really like custom faces like door chats would like that yeah yeah
like it kind of kind of ruins the like the right you know collector value of it
but it would be like you know like it'd be super niche so maybe it's a better
idea just to make like a custom like Thor chain watch no it would definitely
be super nice for sure like I've seen like I saw a while back that Ed Sheeran
made a bunch of like custom what he's like a big watch guy and him and like
John Mayer like this big watch people yeah and then he made like a tour watch
for his like for his people that they went on this tour for like one of his
tours I don't know which one it was he's made a bunch of watches I can't
remember the Rolex or like what but it was just like it was pretty cool it
actually looked like really good and like all those people he'd give the
watches to like they all like absolutely love that watch but like you know it
makes sense for that case in that scenario but they're not you know no
one's gonna you know yeah exactly there's no like there's no market there's
no like a collector or like yeah yeah like there's people like enthusiasts
of Thor chain like this that's all like would would certainly be a pretty cool
thing so I'm passively looking into that I'm not like I'm just too busy with all
the other like you know BD stuff and whatever it's like really you know get
focused on that but I think it's a cool idea for something in the future no I'm
if you do it let me know I'd be I'd be very interested I'm an interested party
I figured I also I also got some cool like some school stickers made for
East Denver so if people are going out to East Denver then I have some special
door chain stick oh yeah are gonna be there I don't know what no one's seen
them yet so they're pretty dope though I'm excited for that it's something I've been
working on in secret for a bit yeah for anybody listening in the ethos there
myself and Kyle will be there I think a lot of the nine realms people will be
there like it's gonna be a pretty we're gonna have a lot of presence there to be
honest and we're gonna have a throw a party as well if anybody wants to come
out to our Thor chain party we're we're co-doing with coinage media with that
Zach Guzman or go back ooze gosh goose and so yes we're doing I think we're
still working on the details of when and where but but anyway family's gonna be
definitely hang out with us yeah probably gonna be on the second of
March 2024 so on that Saturday probably at night somewhere you know we're gonna
throw something cool for the community we did we did one last year honestly we
went to East Denver last year and the event is is pretty great so like just
just so many like there's so many builders there that there's just like a
lot of good people to talk to and then they're just like enthusiasts too and we
had a Thor chain meetup last year yeah it was a ton of fun like seeing people
there's not a shape shift people out there and just like you know people from
the Thor chain community and then just like the surrounding community like some
some pretty like OG like dogecoin people you know just like everyone it's
really cool event I really liked it last year so that's why we're we're
definitely gonna make a presence this year it was a ton of fun to this day my
personal favorite East Denver party out of all the parties went to at all the
East Denver's was the first Thor chain part of you through it was at this like
place that had like ping-pong tables and it was like a huge like I could so many
people came out some people flew out from like Austin Texas I'm like this
just to go to this party and it was really awesome because you can you can
drink you get some food play some ping-pong and it was like it wasn't like
overtly loud like one of my pet peeves at these like you know events and parties
at Lake Denver is that it's just like these these bars and it's just fucking
loud as shit you just really just can't have an actual conversation it's like
really hard to like really just like really good you know back and forth
being you would whatever you're talking to but I that part of me through was
fucking awesome I love that one yeah yeah I heard that was like those two
years ago I think I wasn't there but I heard that was that was super cool and I
totally agree like the same like I hate that too when you go to like when you're
like talk to people and the music is just so loud it's like that's the point
of the fucking party is to talk to people it's not there to like listen to
music and drink beer because you can do that anywhere anywhere in the fucking
world right the whole point is to go there and meet people and talk and like
connect and on telegram or fucking whatever and like it just becomes to
pain the after this is some DJ that's like loud as shit you know
pumping loud music and just can't even engage them but they have a really good
conversation because if you you could have really great conversations we talk
about economics right or talk about like token design talk about you know
whatever but you that requires you know intricate complex like complicated
conversation it's just hard to do that in those scenarios yeah so we're gonna
definitely have like a bunch of builders like come out you know people from you
know wallets for other protocols and just like you know people that are in
the in the surrounding space not necessarily like integrated with or
chain but you know there's definitely gonna be you know a big big presence
there you know we're not doing anything like at the event itself like like
sponsoring or anything but it's a great it's a great time to like come out I'm
pretty and you can go for free actually you don't need to pay anything to go to
eat Denver you just need to sign up for their Dow and if that's free too so you
can just sign up for their Dow and just go yeah that's right I think I think the
only allow like the first 25,000 is for that I think I don't know well you got
to be early then I guess I have no idea yeah actually I'm not sure actually my
sister is gonna be there too because she just got her her first job in crypto she
oh really yeah she's work he's well actually negotiations I should probably
shouldn't say this publicly but she's in negotiations with our first job in
crypto and and you know if they're trying to work out the details and whatnot
but she'll be there we'll be hanging out which would be fun too awesome well
congrats yeah it's a perfect time to meet like builders in the space
especially because like it's just a event where everyone can kind of make it out
especially like us us people but people come from from all over to later this
year I was kind of thinking about token 2049 and in Singapore that's in
September because you know there's just such a big like crypto hub down there in
in Singapore I've just been thinking and that's like probably yeah and then last
year so many projects are reaching out like hey you guys you know Singapore
this week Singapore this week I was like damn like should have made the time to
go out so I'm feeling like later in this year token 2049 in Singapore would be a
good place to go to yeah that's a good conference I've been there once or twice
and I'll speak on the panel there whatever but it's a really good it's
really high quality conference like they're running pretty well cool man
let's let's jump into then what do you what do you want to talk about what we
got going on I guess we can start with any updates on just like some of the
instability stuff like like doge and and that kind of thing yep yeah doge was a
pain in the neck and the reason why is because if I understand correctly and I
hope I hope that I do but people started blasting doge in the mempool I got
exploded out and I think it's still I think it's still pretty crazy now I can
find it near this yeah it's still massive right now and I think it's
because people are using doge for inscriptions to kind of how people are
using for Bitcoin initially and they're just and that just kind of abuses the
mempool in some in some way shape or form I think it's primarily why and then
the other issue is that the the doge daemon itself is a little bit I kind of
outdated from like the from the Bitcoin daemon like it doesn't have like the
performance improvements and so there are like there are some improvements
made to the UTXO chain specifically Bitcoin a couple other ones where if you
want to like just look at all the items in the mempool it's fairly fast and
efficient whereas the older version the one that doge is not operating on it's
not so efficient and so like nodes had a hard time just like keeping up with
the mental it was just causing and things to kind of fall behind me and I'm
having to pause trading temporarily for in there for the network to recover but
we've made some changes and I think there was like the master branch or the
you know the dev branch of doge had some some v2 changes that would make it more
performant which nodes kind of like we pulled that down and started to get back
up to the tip again which we're we're now we're now live again but in this
particular case it wasn't even a problem because of us it was really a problem
because of performance issues on doge combined with inscriptions kind of
abusing the system the UTXO system in some sense it was just kind of a funny
thing yeah it also looks like the doge people are gonna be updating dogecoin
core to make it simpler for wallets and things to query with you know giant
inscription you know pools going on on on dogecoin so they're actually they're
pulling in some changes to make it simpler for you know not only put the
word chain but for all their wallets indexes and you know people that need to
be looking at block data in real time so hopefully that should make things just
easier for everybody but trainings back up now so you can go trade doge do
whatever this is one of the funny things about doing things in a centralized way
versus decentralized way that a sex like you know like a coinbase whatever can
deal with this problem just by brute force right they can just spin up you
know a bunch of different doge daemons and boa blood and and clear them all
simultaneously and come what's called horizontal scaling in tech speak you
can just do that it's fine but because you have the economies of scale
happening in your benefit an essential scenario but decentralization in general
goes against the economies of scale it's like the inverse of the economies of
scale and so it just becomes more complicated or more difficult or more
expensive because instead of it you know spring another doge daemon or whatever it
is theoretically everybody would have to set up another doge daemon each node
operator that's been up to or whatever right theoretically there's more come
it's more complicated than that because of like how the mempools replicated
below blood and the gossip behind it all but at a high level there's things you
can do to kind of like scale it horizontally but like we really can't do
that we can but like nothing stopping us necessarily but like it just becomes
overtly expensive to speak that it's got lots of more doge daemons versus
coin myth that's been up one right right like a sex could have 10 doge daemons
and one's just scanning block one the other one scanning block two you know
up to 10 and it's just it's just bashing that the entire way basically where you
have one daemon that's just scanning each block so you don't have to scan each
one individually like in sequence yeah there's this there's ways you can kind of
like thread things meaning that you just create different channels where you
can use you know it's a horizontal kind of like a sharding another word you can
use in this context but like it's just it just we can't do that and we can do
it's nothing stopping us but like it's just not as applicable for us and sweet
the finger to find more efficient methodology of dealing with this kind
of stuff than Coinbase does because they can just brute force them they have
reached a problem in this kind of context this kind of way they can just
throw money at the problem and be done with it yep makes sense cool so that
wraps it up for the production issues next so on the next update I think we're
getting trade assets so I don't think we've actually we've talked about it a
little bit on here but we should go into trade assets again and just make sure
that people understand like you know what what trade assets are and like how
to use them and what they're gonna be good for and just everything about trade
accounts and in trade assets are we so the assets of themselves are called
trade assets and then using trade assets that's called trade accounts or yeah
what's the terminology I guess that's the terminology I mean I'm amenable to a
change of you will have better ideas better suggestions but you have to
create an account so to speak which is basically just having a thorough dress
not really creating account per se just having a thorough dress and then you can
deposit you know Bitcoin into that into your wallet so to speak but it doesn't
but it isn't actually like this thing is it like trade assets are not actually
technically they're not actually tokens they're not actually coins it's just
accounting internally within torturing system so it's like if you put a trade
asset into your wallet and you go look at your wallet there will be nothing
there right it won't show up in your wallet in a traditional sense it's not
really designed for like to be used as a general token to be you know transferred
in that kind of way so you have the trade assets which basically is like a
one-to-one representation of Bitcoin ETH and whatever well technically it's not
actually not one-to-one technically like most of time it's one-to-one but there
are scenarios where it can change but like those are there just to create more
efficient assets for primarily to arbitrage so that arbitrage plots can
arbitrage the network much more efficiently which is good yes so they're
held by the network so they're native assets that are held by the network and
but they're outside of the pool right so they're you know it's Bitcoin that
Thorchain holds but is not in the liquidity pool so it's kind of a
shift in the paradigm where Thorchain is starting to custody assets that are
not all in all in the pool which I guess technically it does already with like
you know inbound assets and like in outbound assets that are you know kind
of outside the pool like accounting wise but it's still held by the vault but
this is just like an expansion of that concept where not everything that's in
the vault is in the pool so it's like assets that are outside the pool and
then there's a you know a would you consider it a wrapped asset like it
definitely seems like you'd consider this a wrapped asset I know you don't
consider synthetics to be wrapped because it is a different like accounting
model but it does seem more like a well like a wrapped asset where it's just
just held one-to-one no it's not a wrapped asset because because it's not
a token that you hold in your wall you can't just arbitrarily transfer it so
either you mint it or you burn it one of the other you can't just like move it to
some smart contract somewhere else or whatever it is in addition to that like
all those kind of that accounting it's just it's just held by the protocol
itself rather than you as an individual and generally speaking it's held to like
a one-to-one ratio but that can change and shift in the scenarios where the
security of the network is less than the value of the assets in the in the vaults
like the value of the rune of the bonded rune is less than the value of the assets
in the vaults and then what the network starts to do is creates like a negative
interest rate right so like you're you're you're depositing kind of like
it's kind of like you're depositing not even tokens but you're depositing tokens
into this kind of like pool right of everything where everybody's holding
their things and then you own a percentage of that pool you own some
amount of it kind of like kind of being an LP so to speak but there's no swaps
or income or any kind of happening and there's no second assets only just one
asset things and in a scenario where there's just
to get too much assets and not enough security the network will start kind of
charging like a negative interest rate so now they the units that you have that
represents you know maybe you just let's say you have 10% of the Bitcoin and on
the trade trade assets Bitcoin whatever then you're gonna start you know
instead of 10% well you always have 10% that way because the whole thing is
minus but the the number of BTC will start to decrease at that point and a
negative interest rate now that that interest rate is like very weak and
purposely because it's not there to like punish people like if we if we get
under secured and we have too much assets that's actually not really a
problem like in the in the short term like nobody's gonna you know you can't
if you wanted to cyber attack the network it would take months like maybe
nine months ten months something maybe even greater depending upon some
scenarios but like it would just take an exceeding a long time and get there if
you if you even wanted to do it even if you had the capital so but it starts to
create like a small negative interest which will trigger you know people who
are holding those assets to like exit because you don't want to you know lose
your Bitcoin obviously so you start to exit and the act of exiting makes the
network the value of the assets less than the value of the security of the
bonded room so it's not it's not a wrap asset because when you when you create
this you know this token in this kind of accounting in the network you're not in
guarantee that it's one-to-one you're not in guarantee that you put one
Bitcoin in you're gonna get one Bitcoin out tomorrow there's a scenario where
that could be you know it's a normal one 0.9 or 0.98 or something like this
and so because of that it's not really a wrapped asset that makes sense I mean
you can if you didn't do that he said you know what we're not going to do this
thing you can get rid of the economic security if you want to ignore the
economic security if you want to and then it becomes a wrapped asset sure
that point right but we didn't so but it's your actual is it your actual
balance that would be fluctuating so so the the trade account assets the trade
assets their custody aid in a network module right so you don't actually hold
them in your in your balance does that balance so say there's a negative
interest rate applied you know 99% of the time it's just gonna be what it is
you you've won trade BTC and you have a trade BTC you say there's a negative
interest rate because you know all of a sudden you know bottom of the bear
market like we're at the security cap does your balance start to actually go
down or is it only when you make a trade that that no your balance starts
to go down at that point right and it goes down relative to how how how much
under secured we are and we're like barely under the under the thing then
the negative interest rate is you know basically near like zero right it's so
insignificant that it wouldn't be and no one would care but if it gets you know
the value that is twice the value of the room then that would be you know a
higher negative interest rate right and be but your balance is actually going
down in that moment to create the incentive that like hey we've got too
much assets not enough security we're gonna start taking your assets from you
in effect we're gonna swap it to rune and then we're gonna add it to the
security give it to the nodes and by doing so the negative interest rate is
actually causing the network to correct autonomously like correct the balance
between the assets and the security right and by doing so the negative
interest rate will also naturally on its own naturally decrease because of this
you know right selling of the assets buying of the rune putting the rune to
the security side there's a kind of that natural pressure this is pushing in that
direction now the price of rune could continue to fall more than this negative
interest rate sure I mean at some point in time the negative interest that
becomes large enough that it balances out or whatever but like you have a
constant pressure of like selling the assets into rune and rune putting the
bond so you're it is a self-correcting system in that in that sense got it so
you in order to create a trade asset do you have to deposit that asset or can
you say you have you have BTC or like say you have some other asset can you
like swap to that trade asset or the only way to create a trade asset is to
deposit that specific asset into the door chain or like you can swap to it as
well it also works you can deposit directly or you can swap to it or you
can withdraw it directly okay so and if you have like trade BTC then you can
also obviously just like swap to you know native ETH and just that's just a
withdrawal of your you have your trade BTC does a swap and then you just get
your your eat up yep I mean technically you can you can swap a trade asset a
Bitcoin trade assets to layer one Bitcoin or you can just do a withdraw I
don't know why you would do the swap in this scenario because you would just why
would you want to incur the fees of the swap itself doesn't make any sense you
would just probably just do it I see so it's two different mechanisms redeeming
the asset versus yeah redeeming it versus swapping it would be two two
separate things yeah I mean right well I mean you could swap trade like a trade
Bitcoin to a layer one ETH and that might make some sense right because you
have to pay the fees no matter what if you're gonna get to the trade ETH you
still got to pay the fees and the fees will be I think the same if I remember
correctly I think it's gonna be the same and so then it then just becomes the
equivalent just you're saving an extra transaction at the other side of it to
do a withdraw on the trade account got it and the real advantage to trade
assets is that there's less slippage correct because it moves the price less
than a synthetic asset would because well maybe you can explain why that is
or if that's true yeah the benefit primarily is that when you when you when
somebody does an organic trade and this they sell $100 worth of rune into Bitcoin
and our bot has to sell $200 worth of synthetic Bitcoin to correct the price
and that's kind of like it's a counterintuitive and it doesn't make
sense unless you understand the mechanics of how since to work and all
that kind of stuff but just trust me that that's the case for now just because
it's kind of hard to explain it I can do it if I had like a whiteboard so I
easier to explain it the whiteboard but it's hard to do it verbally you know and
so it just requires twice the amount of capital to be able to you know arb that
hundred dollars you need $200 the capital to arb that $100 and this just
kind of correct it so that's like if you do $100 swap $100 swap in the
reverse direction we'll arb it back so when somebody is doing a streaming swap
like we just like for example we just saw a stream swap for like a hundred
Bitcoin there's like 99.8 Bitcoin or something like this and we just saw
someone do a streaming swap with that as a large trade but you know it only kind
of was half part it was half too successful like some of the swaps the
some of them failed largely because the arb bot wasn't able to arb quick enough
or skew up with the demand and you know and then we had like a split situation
where you got some of your Bitcoin back at some of your you got some the WBC you
were looking to get right or something like that but the trade account if that
was live at this particular time you would have twice the efficiency and so
the with the same amount of capital that the arb bot had you would have been had
been twice we would have gotten the the swapper a larger percentage of his
trade to be executed through the system if not the entire thing probably the
entire thing I think I think it'd be most likely the entire swap room could
been successful so it's really critical for price execution of this network and
that's where this is what this is geared towards it's really critical for price
of fusion for ARBs to ARB a streaming swap if ARBs aren't ARBing
these swaps doesn't really work very well right it doesn't really give you a
really good price execution right you need ARBs to be ARBing and and this
makes them kind of like kind of they're twice the liquidity they have today in a
sense right and so it makes them twice more efficient twice more beneficial
twice so you're you're gonna see naturally a lot more trades be more
successful you'll see trades executed with a with a better execution price
like it's just gonna be much more effective and efficient for the protocol
and this is one of the things I think we should need to focus on as a protocol
it's just it's getting the best price execution in the field especially as new
ones new protocols are coming out we got Maya you got chain flip you got Sarai
you've got you know I think zeta chain and wormholes doing something or
whatever it was and blah blah blah like there's more competition coming into
space finally so shocking that it took this fucking long to do that to happen
we've been in this space forever but we're finally starting to see more people
come in this space and I want to make sure that we stay highly competitive
that we can outperform every other decks out there that does cross chain
swaps and we do it better in every regard the speed execution of the trade
and the price execution like the liquidity of it I mean everything we can
think of we want to make sure we can do better than everybody else in all cases
and all scenarios is the best that we can yeah so okay so I could see that it
just makes the arb twice as efficient that makes sense for someone that's just
doing a trade so let's say you know there's you know spot traders who want
to trade you know people that make my trade using sense today just because
there's no native settlement fee does that mean that there's essentially so
there's there is it doesn't mean there's less fees for for trading with a with a
trade asset so let's say the equivalent the equivalent trade like if to BDC if
to BDC native and with trade assets is the slippage of the same is there less
slippage obviously there's no native you know L1 gas fee which is which is
great but is is this slippage incurred the same or is there less slipping for
the slippage would be the same as a synthetic today I think yeah so that's
also that's also identical to yeah so this would be the same I mean I can we
at some point in time we had some like virtual pool depths happening around
synthetics to kind of incentivize ARBs to use it over layer one assets I think
we actually removed that and we put a higher like TSS signing fee like it was
like a dollar or something like this so I don't think we actually do that anymore
so it would perform in terms of slippage would be the fees paid in the trade or
swap would be the same as pretty much anything else you know yeah so it
everything else being equal in user experience to a synthetic today so
people can essentially just move to trade assets and then they just have
the advantages of using trade assets or so for a person in that scenario what's
the advantage of using the trade asset over a synthetic I mean there's a couple
the first thing is it's geared primarily at least on the initial like goal is to
gear towards ARBs that's the first kind of first and foremost so ARBs can
out to pool much more effectively and ARBs would switch over because they would
just need to use less capital have less capital locked up to our any particular
trade yeah I mean what's the incentive most like what's gonna happen is we'll
probably disable the ability to use since for our purposes like well we'll
force the community over just speak I don't I don't think it's any benefit I'm
not sure what the benefits be honest you to it to ARBs but we the benefits
to the protocol and so it makes more sense to the protocol for that so we'll
probably just like force ARBs over to it and then and no no ARBs come to me or
anybody so that I know of and voiced any concern about that about this trade
accounts idea it's just to them it's the same like it doesn't really make it that
much of it is to my knowledge at least so we'll probably just disable the
ability to arbitrarily just mint since right which will cause ARBs to leave
since and then just start using this system you can use if you want to if
you're like a trader trader right and you just like you like the day trade or
you know high frequency trading if you wanted to get into that you can use this
particular you know thing for that for that purpose and then the third purpose
I think which is my kind of my hope my goal is to get to limit orders and order
books and that this this would be the asset that people would probably use
yeah true it's um I mean I feel like I had one more question about trade
accounts but either way this is kind of paves the way for order books and limit
orders because that that's all gonna be built on top of trade accounts right
yeah I'm super excited for order books it's actually like it's better to use
this for order books than it is for since and the reason why that is because
when you acquire a synth you have to swap to it so you have to pay a fee to
get the synth right and then to pay a fee to exit the synth right and so if
you are a high-frequency trader or you're like you know winter mute or like
you know a Cumberland or whatever the hell it is paying a fee every time you
enter and exit like that is you know you can get expensive because you're
doing a lot of trading but with trade accounts when you when you deposit and
when you withdraw there's no fee associated other than the layer one you
know gas fees you know and that kind of stuff right so you don't have to pay a
fee to enter to the kind of to acquire a trade asset or to withdraw a trade
asset other than the gas fees right of like Bitcoin or whatnot so it's it's
cheaper for people it's more it's more usable for institutions to use this
versus versus a synthetic so it's better better for order books to use this
particular kind of asset which is nice it's really nice it ends up just kind
of being the same kind of experience as like what you do with Coinbase or
Binance like when you trade on coins or Binance you don't do a swap that's
something mean not really you never really you never swap with Coinbase or
Binance what you do is you sign in you know you get a deposit address you
deposit some Bitcoin or whatever it is and then they credit your account like
six hours later over the hell the fucking timeframe is for it you know and
then you have this like you know Bitcoin in your wallet that's effectively an
IOU right which is what a trade account is it's kind of like an IOU it's similar
to it but a little bit different and then you just start doing your trading
and like you put a limit order to do this and to buy this and sell this and
then buy that and sell that and do this whatever it is you do and then at the
end of it all you you're left with a bunch of you know Bitcoin or ETH in your
wallet and your kind of like account your Binance account and then you
withdraw it right to ETH right like you just exit the ETH to your you know
OF address and so conceptually like limit orders on Thorchain becomes the
same kind of experience the same kind of UX as what you do if you're you know a
pro trader on Binance or Coinbase or Kraken or OKX or whatever it is and now
you can have people build like you trust the Thor swap or somebody else to
build entire UIs that are not geared towards swappers it's geared towards
traders it's geared towards people who are used to using centralized exchanges
and they're you know to do all their trading and whatnot and you just give
them basically almost an identical experience with lower fees right I think
that's that's gonna be that can introduce a lot of people and expand our
community and expand our market expand our use cases expand the type of people
that we attract quite significantly theoretically
yeah especially with no slippage going in and out of a trade asset because
like you see this all day in the Thorchain dev discord in the alerts
channel I see like you know tons of tons of people that are streaming there right
now it's a streaming swap that they have to do to go from Bitcoin to synthetic
Bitcoin so that's five basis points of slippage basically right off the top
that you're gonna have to make back through Arbing but it makes a lot of
sense that Arbs would switch over like that that is exactly what I was looking
for when I was asking like what's the incentive to switch over it's like you
don't have to pay to get into the system you can just deposit and you have
a have a trade asset that's that's in there yep that's also true also true I
should have mentioned that earlier but yeah yeah that seems like they're really
big in there and one more question about this is people that request to come up
we can we can get to some questions about about order books less trade
assets but so okay so let's say you have trade BTC and you want to swap to trade
either trade USDC where does the asset come from on the other end so like it's
just extra assets that are in the pool like how how are those trade assets
being added on the other end if not for like pool rebalancing yeah where does
the trade asset come from they're swapping so it's you think this way like
think about putting your mind like kind of four pockets right the first pocket
is just like Bitcoin outside the pool and then the second pocket is just like
the Bitcoin pool itself which has Bitcoin and in ruin in it the third
pocket is the ETH pool which is a Ethan ruin in it and the fourth pocket is just
ETH outside the pool the trade asset and so what you're doing when you trade when
you go from a trade asset to trade asset is you're you're taking the the first
pocket you're taking the trade Bitcoin you're moving it from outside of the
pool to be inside the pool right which adds Bitcoin to the pool and then takes
out rune rune gets then added to the ETH pool which then takes out ETH from
the ETH pool and then the ETH just gets moved to the outside of the pool right
that make sense yeah yeah it's gotcha so it's just an accounting it's just
accounting nothing's moving fucking anywhere really like everything this it's
just like oh the number of Bitcoin in the pool is increased and the number of
rune in the Bitcoin pool is decreased and the amount of rune is increasing in
the pool and of ETH and money ETH in the pool is decreased I mean that's but the
number of ETH and Bitcoin blah blah blah and rune like on the network in the
vaults whatever is unchanged right it's just an accounting thing let's get to
some of the people who came up here Paulie what's up man hey thanks for
having me guys I'm not sure who I'm speaking to on the floor account and
it's all got either way but Chad I'm Paulie I don't think we've ever
interacted before but yeah great man thanks happy Friday to you guys if it's
Friday where you are I just saw that this space was open and I figured that I
would just jump in and you know I noticed that when I came into the room
there was like around 70 people and now we're already coming up on a thousand
people so that's awesome and I'm glad that there's a large audience here so I
figured maybe is it okay with you guys if I ask a couple questions and and
share a couple things well first of all a thousand people holy shit that's
awesome yeah but yeah ask your question yeah yeah so I just for context like I'm
the founder of a project called pawn 0x right and right now we're using the
uniswap infrastructure on the back end to route all of our transaction volume
and the DEX is about a hundred and sixty one days old and we've just surpassed
half a billion dollars in volume and the reason that this is relevant to Thor's
I'm not just trying to talk about like myself and what I do but we've been in
contact with with some of the team members of Thor and we're very
interested in migrating over to the Thor infrastructure right and so you
know that being said I'm curious if you could just like kind of share for at
least like you know the the 900 or so people that I brought in here maybe if
you could just kind of give like a general introduction to like what Thor
is and why it's like superior in many ways and I you know for starters like I
know that it's chain agnostic you can trade native Bitcoin on Thor chain you
can also trade you know other networks that are not EVM machines right that's
my understanding so maybe that's kind of what I would request is like a thing
since there's such a large group of new new people here right so you've built a
new DEX and you want to utilize fortune within the context of this new DEX to be
honest like that's something that like we don't even need to discuss in here
because we already have like the the contacts with some team like Gavin is
who we've been working with on that and we already have engine was connected in
tories and everything but Tyler Reynolds is a good friend of mine and
he's the person that introduced me to Thor and so shout out Tyler amazing
person and super intelligent I think he's great but yeah I guess I think it
would be interesting for myself and for the audience maybe if you could just
give us like very basic introduction to what Thor chain is and and what's good
about it if that works for you guys sure Kyle you want me to do it you want to
take the honors all right well I'll start it off and you can you can pick up
wherever I leave off so door chain is just native asset infrastructure you
can think of it as a centralized exchange just running on decentralized
infrastructure so it's just it's a framework to custody Bitcoin and any
other asset in a vault that sharded into many different keys and then all you
need to do is just deposit assets into the vault and it can swap cross chain so
you can do anything you can do on a centralized exchange just with on on
these decentralized rails so you can trade native Bitcoin to ether the
stablecoins and yeah Thor chain powers the cross chain rails for you know a
ton of different projects in this space like like shapeshift trust wallet we do
the the cross chain swaps for them and a bunch of a bunch of other guys in the
space they use our liquidity and yeah it's the it's the biggest cross chain
infrastructure project that's out there just answering the question like how do
you custody native Bitcoin in a vault that's run by anonymous anonymous
individuals and have that be economically secure so the entire
Thor chain framework is just built around that question and securing assets
in a sharded vault essentially I have a question Kyle if it's okay and and I'm
you know I'm I'm being educated myself like I'm not like pretending to not know
this stuff a lot of this stuff is very new to me as well but my engineers are
super familiar with Thor and you know they're the ones who are like the most
geeked out about like the the concept of transitioning over because I think that
compared to uni swap it would first of all offer the ability to trade with the
native Bitcoin which is to me a massive value ad right but of but in addition to
that the chain agnostic factor is powerful to me and compelling but also I
believe that you guys are able to achieve better market rates than anyone
else right now and and then you have the streaming swaps which allow people to
conduct large large size like basically whale volume transactions without
getting impacted with like a massive amount of price impact or slippage right
is are those things anything you could add some color to yes it's something we
we kind of innovated with this idea of what we call a stream swap and I'm just
allows basically it automatically just cuts a large trade into like a bunch of
small ones so you get the best price execution possible and with that like
you can get something as low as five this basis points like oftentimes people
make trades and they they get better better execution than you can get on
coinbase Binance Uniswap even curve for coin you know stable the stables like
it's pretty it's pretty awesome you know to think that we're now Dex's are now
surpassing essential as exchanges is unreal yeah I mean it's it's funny that
CZ predicted that himself he was like I believe that that you know D phi is
going to be sort of eclipsed by but see if I was going to be eclipsed by D phi
right I think he said that had to be like at the end of 2023 maybe which I
thought that was an interesting little tidbit to catch from him right well it
makes logical sense because I sometimes exchange like coinbase or whatever right
take it then for example they have to have a huge company with hundreds and
hundreds of employees right they'd like a couple hundred security engineers all
alone not even dead it's like people dedicated towards security they have to
deal with the government they have to deal with all these things they have to
have cost of operations and this kind of stuff but but Dex can just you know be
built in and just deployed by a handful of devs like you know initially like
Thor came was built and just by three people right over the course of like two
or three years and you guys build this thing and it doesn't have to have this
kind of huge infrastructure behind it that requires you like hundreds of
millions of fucking dollars to operate so it has an ability to undersell
everybody else in a sense just because it's so cheap to interact with it and
so cheap to build and so cheap to operate it kind of similar to like how
like AI it's like really cheap you can do lots of things with AI like really
fast and really cheap it's a little bit like that so it's inevitable that that
like Dex's in general or DeFi in general will kind of eclipse central
systems and the only way that cannot be the case at least in my opinion is that
if it is if institutions themselves are prohibited or nervous to interact with
DeFi protocols because they're just nervous what Gary Gansler is gonna say
about it right if we get if we get clarity from you know the Congress and
whatnot that you know that it's okay to swap with a AMM protocol that doesn't
matter where the liquidity comes from but you can just go ahead and swap with
it which I think that's going to happen at some point because I think it's the
best interest of markets that would be like that would be the last nail in the
conference and then everything would be done through DeFi it wouldn't make any
sense except for the US dollar to interact with DeFi at all just to
just to clarify I believe Gavin is one of the three founders that you mentioned
right no so Gavin Gavin's the CEO of nine realms who's what we so I'm part of the
nine realms team familiar cow here from the nine realms team so we do we do
infrastructure security core dev work for Thor chain so Gavin's just a huge
Thor Chad and someone that's been building in the space for for a long
time like founding engineer at a big go and you know big big resume in the
space and just like and we're all just just chads that are passionate about
cross chain exchange and just being like being the future of decentralized
liquidity because we I mean we really do believe that everything is going to be
moving to decentralized rails you know sometime in the next 10 years it just
makes logical sense because the you know increase capital efficiency and
just the like you know that exchanges are gonna have to rebalance their
liquidity somewhere there needs to be a base layer for liquidity where exchanges
can go well we need more Bitcoin you know we where are they gonna get it
there's no native way to do that need to go OTC it would make infinitely more
sense for there to be you know this base layer of liquidity they can really tap
into so we're just you know that that's our group and you know Gavin's on with
us awesome just you know really believes in the future of this space I didn't I
didn't even have full clarity about what it was but I knew he was close to the
project and I think Tyler introduced us which was amazing of him it's funny like
for some context one of the additional like I think that uni swap is like a
reasonably good experience right just in terms of like being a user and and
being able to use the product right but it's funny because I don't know if you
guys know Hayden or whatever but he has me blocked and he has also blocked the
decks pawn 0x even though we're you know we're pushing half a billion dollars in
volume through his exchange so I thought that I was very strange strange gesture
to to block the person responsible for bringing him half a billion dollars in
volume like in my mind I thought maybe that would be something that you would
want as like a protocol founder right I don't know yeah I mean he blocked the
chain like three years ago and saying it wouldn't work and that was a scam
before it was before it before it existed so I mean that's what happens
over here you still use the chain block so yeah I mean before it came out he's
like this you know this won't work this isn't I guess he has a pattern of
butthurtness but anyways I speak kind of crudely so I won't project that onto you
guys but the last question that I have is right now we're dealing with this
network congestion on ETH right the Ethereum network has been very congested
and I speculate that a lot of that has to do with this this sort of silly scammer
cabal promoting this nonsense ERC 404 which is like this totally broken and
exploitable fake token standard that's not vetted by the Ethereum Foundation or
anything like that but neither here nor there the the network is congested right
regardless of the reason why and I'm curious like when the when the Ethereum
network is congested or when the Bitcoin network is congested is there anything
about Thor chain that is like able to sort of insulate itself from the
affected congestion or does the congestion directly impact your guys
network in a similar way no it does have some kind of impact we are kind of we
have to deal with Bitcoin layer one because that's what we do right and so
anything that's happening there inherently has to happen to us but the
one the one exception though I think would say as we were talking earlier
about about trade accounts is that well you can you can trade on Thor chain
with your Bitcoin whatever and you know and exit the layer one Bitcoin if you
want to and you can you can kind of skip all the gas fees you know associated
with Bitcoin or ETH or whatever once once trade accounts is live and he
actually can do it today with synthetics we really wanted to go you know have at
it but trade accounts will be even even better for the for the protocol and for
the community but yeah so you can you can kind of skip all that and just trade
directly that way if you want to for sure and and I guess like just my
understanding is that Thor right now you guys kind of have the the ability to
offer the best rates on the entire decentralized market would you guys
agree with that generally speaking I haven't seen anybody beat us yet to be
honest yeah yeah so that's that's that's like that's a big part of my motivation
to want to migrate over to the Thor chain rails is because the vision of
like what we're doing is just all about delivering the maximum value to all the
users right and try them for participating in everything as much as
possible but you know if we can if we can deliver people a trading experience
where it's just as good if not better in terms of speed and ease of use than
uniswap but also more competitive and better market rates like to me that's a
home run so right I'm excited yeah I'm just excited to continue progressing
down that road we're working on many different things at once so sometimes
the bandwidth can be a little directed in in one way where you know it might
take some time to to finalize the implementation of that but I have a
feeling that um we'll be in touch more and yeah I just I want to thank you guys
for sharing the stage with me with now there's almost 1,500 people listening now
so I'm gonna step out of the way here and let you guys do what you want to do
but um you this is me on social media and maybe we can chat on the side
sometime and yeah I really appreciate it yeah feel free to feel free to DM me
if you want to but I agree that like I think being decentralized is great but
it's not it's not the only attribute right being also having BEX X is also
you know important to get adoption and pulling away from such as exchanges and
that kind of thing and that's how having what you said you're having best X best
best price execution right oh yeah yeah best the best on the best on fees
basically right that's like it's great to be decentralized that's obviously a
big goal that's one of the things that we started off with predominantly just
making sure we were properly decentralized like fully but we can't
stop there we have to we have to be on be every central exchange especially on
every attribute that we could possibly muster with the exception of like dollars
we can't fuck around with dollars for obvious reasons but except for that one
thing we want to beat them in every regard amazing well yeah I think that
the future looks bright and you know I think it's just about who can deliver
the best for the people that are using this stuff and of course like one one
thing that I know I've kind of have as a strength and it's funny like you know
that we were able to bring so many more listeners here is I'm able to bring an
audience and sometimes sometimes like the best engineers in the world can
deliver the execution and all the tech but sometimes we have to combine forces
and make sure we bring the audience right and the users too so I don't know
I'm hoping that I can contribute to what you guys are doing and I hope vice versa
as well so thanks for having me and you guys have a great weekend I added you as
a friend on here Chad so we'll be in touch great follow you as well thanks
cool man um yeah thanks coming up and thanks everyone for joining we are
actually we are gonna be in Denver we're gonna we're gonna throw away a
little happy hour on most likely March 2nd so if anyone's coming out to eat
Denver you know fortune community is definitely gonna be there Chad's gonna
be there we're gonna make presents out there so yeah looking forward to meeting
some people and you know talking about cross chain liquidity we're huge
Bitcoiners so we love talking about you know everything related to Bitcoin to
defy aetherium you know that's that's us so thanks everyone for joining who's
yo John you there do not hear you he's there but he's not able to speak I guess
his mic is broken we'll come back with him later
all right let's clear it let's let's clear up the stage is something going on
here crypto tell you what's going on oh wait sorry let me bite him back oh did
you take everybody off the stage
and people back you there we go Johnny there yeah can you guys hear me now yeah
yep so I got exposure to Thor chain basically through pond I'm just
checking out your guys's website and I see savers faults and I'm just curious
on what's the kind of an explanation between the rune BTC APR for example and
the difference between the savers APR I kind of just a brief explanation on kind
of what I'm looking at here yeah so essentially there's two different ways
to provide liquidity on Thor chain and that's either dual sided or single
sided and so like any other a.m.m. you can provide dual liquidity so it's it's
paired with rune so you pair your native BTC with with native rune and
that goes in the pool and dual dual LPs receive basically twice the yield of a
regular LP sorry I'm a single sided LP and but they also receive the
impermanent loss of the single sided savers the people that only provide BTC
essentially so the people who provide just BTC it's also providing liquidity
but you receive less of the less of liquidity fees but you're you're
essentially principle protected so it's just it's two different risk profiles
for two different types of of LPs one that's more levered towards and you know
rune exposure and then one that's just single sided BTC so they're there to two
ways to provide liquidity to have kind of a different risk profile and just like
different mechanics line them oh thanks no worries Alexander thanks hey guys
thanks for having me so I try to swap over the app right app towards what the
finance and I use earn and I actually have four positions and one with your
notices you say okay B&B on the beacon chain is shutting down or sunset so I
actually wanted to withdraw my put there in urn and whenever I do this I go
to withdraw then I have this nice slider but the withdraw button actually never
gets active so I tried to get some help over discord they say it sent first 0.001
B&B to this address was this memo and then it should work and stuff but until
now the button is not active and I use a key store right to connect to your
service so we can't really do technical support in a Twitter spaces because I
don't think it's really entertaining or interesting for the the rest of the
community who are here listening to us sorry my thing to stop working all of a
sudden no no no you're good yeah so you should you should go back into that
discord ticket and talk with them because so this is for just general like
you know door chain things you should just talk with the interface that you're
using you can use Thor swap and talk in their ticket there's also other
interfaces like shapeshift or Asgard X you could load the same wallet into and
just to go to withdraw so okay thanks but but discord is the right
communication channel then for yeah yeah Thor swap discord open up a ticket in
there and don't answer DMS or anything like that always always scammers in the
DMS I talked about order books and more yeah so okay so order books built on top
of trade assets and that's not the next feature that's coming like I think we're
gonna see memo lists most likely in between trade assets and order books so
you know it probably coming sometime in the next like a couple of months but
just mechanics wise for order books so how exactly is order books gonna
function so you you need a trade asset to start it and like or like what's
what's the user flow of someone you know placing a limit order on door chain like
what what parameters that they need to to put in to actually get a limit order
started yeah I mean it's not too dissimilar from what you do today if
you're doing a little or anywhere else you just make a deposit of some asset
like let's call it Bitcoin for example and then you you know open an order
element order for ETH and you're you have one Bitcoin what is your kind of
your source asset and then your destination is ETH and you want you know
35 ETH I'm making up a random number better like whatever the hell the number
would be you want some quantity of ETH and then you're the the order just kind
of put on the network and it's just kind of waits until that thing can be
executed once executed gets you that you're 35 ETH got it so you so you don't
add it's not versus USDC or anything else it's really just like you're
putting in what asset you want out on the other end no matter what it is you
could put in a you could put in BTC and say like I want USDC out once once this
price limit is it or you could say put BTC in I want ETH out once this once
this is hit or any combination in between yeah I think curbs will probably
be USD based if we ever get down that far or do perpetuals but but the limit
orders it's just it's just it shouldn't be very it should be very comfortable
and familiar for people yeah man that that's gonna be so cool and we talked
about this a couple of times but just limit orders making arbitrage even more
efficient I'm really looking forward to the day once all ARB moves to order
books and essentially what I what I think this is going to do at least my
theory on this is that ARBs will start looking and aggregating all of the other
limit orders on every centralized exchange that they're that they're
connected to you as like an ARB bot right so essentially what door chain
becomes is like the aggregator of all limit orders and all liquidity in the
space because it's you know let's say that the price is you know there's one
price on finance is one price price on Kraken is another one on coin days and
every other centralized exchange you could just put limit orders down on on
door chain using trade assets and essentially once the once the door chain
price is is moved to a price where you know that you can make a profit on any
of those exchanges your orders just executed then you can in your bot just
takes care of the ARB and so essentially it becomes the the ultimate price
aggregator that's a proactive price aggregator that would would essentially
just put in all the all of the liquidity from all the other exchanges pretty
effortlessly because right now all ARB is reactive to the price changes like
when the price changes and there's ARB opportunity then the ARBs come in but
this way ARBs can just put their limit orders in before there's ever any price
change so you're always getting best acts on on door chain no matter what
yeah it's it's much more efficient in a lot of ways it's like there's there's
really what will be three different forms of ARBing on the network and this
new one was like kind of be the most efficient system so even within a
streaming swap now if you're making a streaming swap you make a swap and then
these you know five like blocks later it makes me look trade in a sub trade in a
sub trade like every five blocks where it is and you're kind of making an
assumption that ARBs are ARBing in between those five blocks which maybe
that's true maybe that's not true right either way you're fine the network takes
care of you but like but in this case there's no kind of like trying every five
blocks whatever it just it does it whenever the opportunity is there so it
so if the it maximizes your trade against the ARBs as efficiently as
possible which is really kind of really bullish for the for the project in many
like right now like if you do an ARB let me give you an example if you do an ARB
an ARB swap right and I'm just say it takes enough sorry a regular swap through
streaming swaps rather it takes like a full day to do a trick every sub trade
every you know every five blocks of all the blind it takes you know doesn't
300 swaps sub swaps blah blah blah and it takes about a day whatever the hell
the number is well instead of doing that it would just it would just execute the
trade as fast as the ARBs have capital for like it's the stronger the ARBs the
faster that whole thing would execute so it would be just as it could be
literally like the utmost that the ARBs the ARBs are willing to provide capital
for they're just be like as as instantaneous as possible relative what
ARBs can do rather than just like oh well just like what split over like a
course of a day and you know blah blah for like a super large trade and this
just becomes like so fast so efficient and ARBs can cycle their capital through
the network much faster the number of times like you've got like let's say you
got two million dollars an ARB and you're just like constantly ARBing and
going around in circle source pick to close the loops you can then do that
like you know instead of doing it 30 times a day you can do it 50 times a day
or some other number so you actually make the ARBs themselves also more
fashion effective and efficient inherently so so it's just like it's so
bullish for the for the product and so bullish for the trade volume of the
network so okay quite a question for you because this is something that we talked
about with trade accounts being twice as efficient as synthetic assets for trade
volume do you expect trade volume to decrease once we switch over to to trade
accounts rather than to synthetic assets because if ARB is essentially twice as
capital efficient then that means that there would be like naturally they'd be
twice as half as much ARB as there is today like given the same amount of
organic trading activity on all the different front ends so so is the
expectation that volume is likely to decrease with the same yeah I would
expect to see our like total swap bond to decrease in the short term but because
of the efficiency that it gains to the pro like to the protocol in general I
would expect in the middle of long term to be more getting by that can you can
you explain that concept again I think we we went over that before but like why
yeah why exactly would you expect it to increase over the long term if the
especially at the liquidity fees that it would be generating would only be half
because there's half the volume if that's correct well yeah because because
the ARBs are gonna be twice more more efficient and more effective which means
the total amount of capital the network can trade in a given amount of time would
be increased and so execute at a competitive rate so because you're
making the network you know more more capital efficient you can do a higher
volume of training which will you know generally speaking would it would
advocate for that or incur that just because like when when you have a high
TVL when you have a deep pool right you're more likely to get more trades
because you're more capital efficient right they're gonna slip that you would
experience in a deep pool versus a shallow pool it's a lot less since we
people are more likely to trade in deep pools and they are in shallow pools just
in general right so by being more capital efficient you can invite more
capital in a matter of speaking it won't be instantaneous won't be like oh
we flip the feature on and then like day two it's like you know blah blah that's
why I say like a medium maybe long term it takes time for the market to react
to the conditions of the market so it'll it'll take some time but but I think
initially we'll see a decrease in overall trade volume because ARBs are
being much more efficient and then over the long term we'll just invite more
word yeah man order books gonna be awesome so the general order that things
are gonna be shipped our trade accounts will be in the next release so you know
probably in the next like two weeks or so will trade trade assets will be
available and then after that I think the next major feature that's planned is
memoist transactions and then after that would be would be order books as far as
I'm aware that's the general order that that things would be shipped so yeah
probably looking at like you know like a month or two at least for for order
books and you know probably more time than that because just you know testing
and validating all the new features that are coming on is gonna take some time
especially like you know brand new primitives like trade assets and
memoist but it's all all being worked on you know synchronously and you know all
shipped all queued up to come out you know in subsequent releases so those are
all those are all the near-term priorities yeah I think the way that I'm
seeing at this point is that we'll probably have trade accounts done you
know within the next like couple weeks or so I'm thinking that launched on
mainnet memoist transactions will probably be at the end of q1 maybe early
q2 and then we'll probably see order books probably end of q2 I'm thinking
at this point so yeah those are all big features want to dive into memoist real
quick well you know it's funny I was just talking to Orion before this this
space and we were just chatting about you about the bull market and how you
know things are looking really positive for the protocol and he was asking me
the question about like you know how do things feel differently in this bull
market versus the last bull market right because I've been working on this
project since the beginning and been around for a while and it's kind of
funny I was just kind of commenting I'm in reflection of that like the the state
of the protocol the efficiency of it the structure of it capabilities of it is so
far away better than it was in the last bull market it's not even fucking
comparable I guess just with streaming swaps with savers with like this is so
many things we've done so much innovation in the last few years it's
almost like kind of on it almost makes your head spin in some sense that's all
like it just makes me so bullish about this year because we have so many things
all coming together at the same time and then we didn't even have integrations in
the in the first bull market we didn't I don't even think we had any
integrations like you know integration partners other than like Thor swap and
Thor wallet and that kind of thing you know dedicated systems and in like now
we have so many that are like positioned it's it's quite it's almost comical how
morning how day and night it is between the between the two of those things so
it's really exciting to see that this next bull markets can be absolutely
epic yeah I know anyone here that was around in like April 2021 when chaos
net was was first launched like remember the original like original Thor swap
interface and actually like making trades on there yet you had to do it
through a through a key store wallet even like you couldn't just like you
know use your leisure or anything like the UX has improved so much and the back
end to obviously like the actual protocol itself it's it's crazy how
how different it is like today versus looking back yeah if someone has some
old screenshots from like the first days I think I have some somewhere but I
can't find them but I love to you know look back in like old screenshots of
like the way the protocol that the front ends like used to look like back in the
day and it's like it's like a it's like a computer terminal you know it was so
different I mean yeah to think we didn't we didn't have almost most of the
things we have today that people value like I know people in our community value
like streaming swaps like savers right like integrations with trust wallet and
and metamask and little shape-shift like none of those things really existed in
the last bull market almost none of them do you play me and so it's just like the
things of most value came from the innovations that we did towards the end
of the bull market and and during the bear market the things that people are
most excited about you they that creates the most value for the industry as a
whole so it just it's kind of I hadn't really thought about it until Orion kind
of asked me the question before the spaces I was like oh my god yeah my good
we we are so better off than we were before it's not even funny that's
because no one really left because the people who you know believe in having
like this base layer of this this base layer of decentralized liquidity that
is you know it's on its own autonomous system that can just like that can just
operate like the people that believe in it like really believe that like this is
the way that just this is ago this is the base layer for liquidity in all the
crypto right and we're already seeing like the first centralized exchanges
like you know starting to starting to tap the work in for you know just
rebalancing liquidity and using that and it's just I mean it's obvious to me
I mean that's why you know stuck around during the bear and why every other
builder here just believes in it so much because they see that you know things
are gonna have to move to decentralized rails and that's the only way that makes
sense to have like a global permissionless decentralized system and
especially for something that operates with the same ethos as as Bitcoin like
if you're if you're a Bitcoiner why would you want the future of Bitcoin to
be controlled by centralized exchanges it's it's crazy yeah they kind of do
some of those maxis do it's kind of a it's a cognitive dissonance but they do
say shit like that and it's just like what okay like prime example here like
the guy that runs strike right huge Bitcoin or like you know he's like you
know all about like decentralization blah blah like you go to use strike to
to buy Bitcoin you're buying it from your bank account and you sell it and
you need to get fiat to your bank account it's it's just it's just an app
to buy and sell Bitcoin using his trusted service you know you have to
you're trusting that yeah they're gonna they're gonna withdraw from your bank
count then you're gonna get your Bitcoin back you know and obviously that's the
only way to run some kind of system that runs on fiat is going to need to have
some kind of trusted rails there where you need someone that's that's a
intermediary that's gonna be taking you know the fiat and then giving you the
Bitcoin but like the the entire purpose the entire value of Bitcoin is being
this like decentralized trustless store of value like EE so having not having a
trustless base layer of liquidity is like you know the fact that anyone could
could be like oh yeah the value of like a of a way to exchange it to fiat is
greater than a value of the value of a way to exchange it permissionlessly is
like kind of a crazy thing to say I think at least yeah absolutely I I saw I
think his name is Jack mauler I want to say his name is the CEO yeah yeah I saw
him speak it like it was a Bitcoin conversation I'm just I really don't like
I really don't like that guy I've never seen somebody so cocky over doing so
little I mean I like the app but just like just as a as a principle you know
like the fact that you they that you'd want the base layer of Bitcoin to be
like oh yeah you can exchange it for for dollars it's like all right like what's
the what's the value in that yeah it's yeah I have a hard time taking him
seriously in general it is every time he talks I'm just like yep don't care
just okay what you're saying for sure I brought up compound what's up get some
other questions here yeah I just want to jump on here and say fuck that poly guy
in his army of bots dude the scammer oh yeah wait thanks Peter hey guys what's
going on just came into your space cuz of Paulie and sitting around listening
sounds like you guys are on the ball I want to ask you just in relation to what
you just spoke about how do you feel about the introduction and ramping up of
privacy protocols with all this stuff right so you don't have to worry about
you know governments intermediaries being able to intercept put holds freezes
on what you're doing and not even have eyes on what you're doing you know the
only way to do that now in a way that you wouldn't be able to be tracked would
be with cash do you guys foresee introducing that into your platform or
what are some of if you do have some do what are some of the protocols that you
like that are the most privacy and security minded where you're not gonna
have to worry about KYC AML and other type of issues that can be thorny when
it comes to privacy and security how you want to just want me to take it you
got it okay so I'm a fan of privacy like I'm a fan of privacy protocols we need
more of them we need higher quality ones privacy is a very hard thing to
accomplish it's it's it's easy to it's easy to do something that kind of works
but it's hard to do something that is really you know effective it's extremely
difficult I think there probably just needs more innovation to be done in the
cryptography world I think they will maybe like fully fully homomorphic
encryption will be kind of like the key that really kind of cracking this nut
but I don't feel like we're quite there in general but we're getting there
privacy is a very kind of hot topic in our community there are people who are
you know advocates of adding privacy tokens privacy chains to the network
like Monero like Zcash I'm personally a big fan of it I would love to see that
happen at some point in the future other people are more kind of kind of more
hesitant they don't want to invite government oversight or government you
know inquiry into Thorchain because you know people are using it to launder
money through Monero or whatever like I think that's one of the concerns that
people some people have but that's gonna be a debate in our community
although we want to add these kind of things but narrows is very difficult to
add it we've spent a lot of time trying to get the tech right to add it and we
have it mostly there we were getting closer but it's just extremely
difficult to accomplish Zcash is a lot easier to do in theory but I would love
to see us add some price tokens or privacy chains to the network awesome
thanks Chris also important to note that you know Thor changes as a base layer
protocol like all Thorchain cares about is whether you can send coins to
Thorchain and with a memo to swap to anything right so you can just like
Thorchain is no concept of anything outside of just what's on chain so it
just it accepts Bitcoin from you know any valid any valid any valid sender
right as long as it has a as long as a memo is done to the right door chain
vault it just recognizes that and does the swap so like Thorchain has a
protocol there's no concept of like identity or anything anything outside of
just like just just value so that's just an important point about the the
protocol it doesn't it doesn't know anything outside of what's on chain so
you know obviously they as a as an interface like interfaces can do whatever
they want and like you know obviously that's something that interfaces you
know might need to might need to do something to protect themselves but like
as a protocol like Thorchain has no ability to you know sensor transactions
or to do anything it's not it sounds like you guys would also be protected
like analogous to section 230 allowing the tech companies or the social media
companies to have no liability when it comes to what is being posted on their
mediums so I mean from what you explained it just sounds like you allow
interactions as long as they're on chain on your protocol and you really have no
say whatsoever as far as the content of what is happening or the background of
the actors that are coming in to use the protocol is that correct right I mean
it's like uniswap like anyone could just interact with the contract like it the
front end you can do whatever it wants but the actual back end has no concept
of anything beyond just you know the interaction with the protocol itself so
yeah thanks man crypto sailor oh hello everybody thanks for having me on can
you hear me okay yep thank you a great job again on the spaces appreciate it as
always I actually came up just to do some transparency I understand of course
there's always drama and in discussions that are going on and there are some of
us who like the idea of an organized forum for that in terms of some kind of
foundation or something or whatever ends up being called and we are doing some
exploratory discussions on this and if people are interested they can get in
touch with me in participating more but I just want to make people aware because
obviously to do this I would never want to go in any kind of secretive manner in
the going about of it and just as a little background I have been involved
in the crypto industry or community since 2011 I helped organize community
events like meetups and conferences in the original Bitcoin community I helped
organize inform the Bitcoin Association of Canada and so I've been very much
involved in these kinds of endeavors before and there I think a lot of
benefits and so I'm just wanting to make sure that everybody is aware of this and
this is a hundred percent of friendly endeavor looking to support what we see
is a lot of tremendous work a lot of top tier professionalism around development
and security and thinking through of the consequences of Thorfai and it's my
own perspective that out of respect for the tremendous amount of wisdom and
knowledge experience that the technical team has that we should respect that and
as well as the the people who are contributing the real value to the
network such as providing liquidity and running nodes that we should I think my
own opinion and I think the opinion of those of us discussing this is that we
should elevate that level of professionalism in terms of business and
marketing and communications and things like this out of respect for that so I
just am saying that to make sure everybody's aware of this and there's no
attempt to disrupt existing development processes if you look at generally the
groups that do this kind of thing maybe they're involved a little bit more in
development but I think there's a really quality development group I myself have
mentioned before I as someone from the engineering side of things I don't
disagree with 99% of what the development team has done I think they
always do a good job especially in responding to security issues so that's
kind of why I came up and I don't mean to you know disrupt your conversation
but again out of you know an abundance of appreciation for the team developing
and of transparency I just wanted to let everybody on the call know that and I'm
not sure if there's any other questions or whatever I don't mean to disrupt your
your call as I said so thanks very much thanks so appreciate the the
transparency in the comments appreciate that cool let's talk about Chad anything
anything else or should we wrap it up well we got a pretty decent audience so
here's 300 people so people are so interested in chatting anybody who wants
to come up and ask a question or engage or as a welcome to I think there's
anything else we want to talk to you that's more recent did you want to I
talk a bit about there are some recent issues that people I mean there is like
an article that was published about some rift in the community and stuff like
that I don't know if you've gone much into that in a public space or I missed
it on this call just interested in your thoughts or whether or not it's
appropriate I mean I think that like I think that the the conversation is going
to require a long-term conversation right it's not something we're gonna
settle like today or even this month whatever there's gonna be ongoing
conversation in the community but us deciding what do we want will we want to
see for how we want to move forward right and in the end we're gonna have
you know step-by-step processes of talking about ADR is like ADR 0 12 is
one that's gonna be voting on I think tomorrow I think I think the voting
starts if I'm not mistaken and voting on each thing so I think it's probably best
that we that when we talk about these kind of things that we can have a kind
of high-level conversations if you want to that's and it's fine but it's it's
more helpful to talk about kind of individual kind of proposals so ADR 0 12
is the next one and then is the one we're gonna be voting on you know I
think tomorrow or early next week and that'd be kind of a topic of
conversation that we could kind of get into more details about yeah so voting
that's probably gonna open up pretty soon I mean I guess we could just talk
about this for like one last thing I just like what the ADR is and like what
it means so it's basically the ADR to scale the lending protocol so as part of
the scaling of the lending protocol like basically what this is a vote for
is is a couple of things first is to set the maximum collateralization ratio of
lending so you know take out take out a loan against your native Bitcoin what's
your collateralization ratio it'd be 200% or 50% LTV which is probably simpler
terms for people to think about and the other thing would be to be the to burn
the standby reserve so there's a there's a standby reserve which has never been
deployed and set aside since the beginning of the protocol and this
proposal would set the LTV to 50% always so you'd always get a 50% LTV loan as
long as we're not at the lending caps and it would burn the entire standby
reserve and by burning the standby reserve it opens up space for lending
because of the lending lever and then so the lending lever is a mechanic that
basically allows for you know some some margin of safety so that way with the
mechanics of lending that if the room price decreases even even a lot in
comparison to Bitcoin or Ethereum then there's no mint there's no net mint of
of rune from the maximum supply even if it decreases a lot so essentially what
this does is it opens up I think somewhere around like 15 million 50
million rune of space in the lending protocol so that scales up when lending
20 million runes and that scales it up to what like 50 50 million dollars or
something like that since the lending protocol so it would essentially allow
lending to start really ripping it'd be 25 million rune for open for loan which
means in total in total that would be you know whatever the price of rune is
times that so it's a lot of money is 125 million 130 million
that includes the loans that are already currently open of course but let me
kind of talk about it a little bit differently than the cow kind of give it
good like kind of touching more explanation both kind of like give more
context to it so the lending that we do we have on
blockchain is very different it's structurally very different than every
other lending protocol that you've ever heard about before it's very experimental
and it's very novel and it allows us to do things that nobody else can do right
let's have a better blown offer than anybody else can do in the industry and
the when we first launched it we wanted to keep it small so we only launched it
with the five million cap which is like I think like 1% or something like this
1% of the total supply of rune and so it's was launched in a very very small
way just to make sure there was no bugs no exploits you know keep it small keep
it tight slow launch you know ramp it up over time but that first kind of
launch we wanted to just kind of see what the market behavior was with a
small little tiny cap make sure there's no bugs or problems whatever and we've
gotten through that and thus far we see nothing but really you know green flags
right the number of loans that open and closed in the network is very small much
smaller than I would have thought right I think it's like around 700 loans are
currently open and a total of like 50 loans or something like this have been
closed and out of the loans that have been closed almost every single one of
them has been closed when the collateral asset is up in value which is positive
for the protocol so thus far it's been really positive and we've seen a lot of
green flags but it's also very early too right you can't look at that and say hey
everything's great you know Yolo let's go no I don't think I think that would
be irresponsible so the next part at least in my view is now that we've
confirmed that the basically the code works and basically the lending has been
very effective at least in that small amount I want to see it kind of scale up
to about 5x where it is now which is what we're talking about and see how the
lending happens and what the larger data set of collection of information right
over a longer period of time right we wind in lending for I think we launched
it in August or something like this so it's been you know about six months a
little over six months and I want to kind of give it more time just so we can
collect more data about how users interact with this system right what is
the behavior they have in up markets where the behavior they have in down
markets for the behavior like in all the case and scenarios so that we can
understand alone with this kind of attributes alone with this kind of deal
how does the real world respond to it and and part of that I think what which
is one of the reasons I wanted to go down to 200% CR or a 50% LTV which is a
much better deal for the for the borrower which is great because we kind
of like sat around like 85 90% for like a for like months because as we as you
get higher in utilization of the cap the LTV drops drops drops drops and it
gets less and less enticing you know as a borrower and so you kind of like saw
this kind of balance be struck around 80% 90% so I want to see if we put it
200% and it's hard to lock it at that it's a much better deal for the for the
for the community for the for the borrower it's actually a much safer deal
for the for the protocol it's actually safer less less likely to have any
issues and the amount of value that we extract from those loans can be the same
as what it is now if we if the demand is there if the lower at the highest LTV
constitutes more demand which I think it nationally would we would see a lot of
value come into the protocol which is really good so I'm looking to see happen
if this gets passed if people vote for it in the passes well I'm looking to see
happens I want to see another six months of behavior I want to see you
know probably I'm guessing 5x or maybe maybe actually probably more than 5x
we're going to a 50% LTV so we allow for more loans to be opened so probably more
than 5x number of loans to be opened and we can continue to see the behavior of
those people and what they do and then we'll see how fast the caps get hit we
lock it at 50% LTV rather than 50% and then it goes down to 20% how how
fast the people dive on this thing and does it happen and you know a month or
three months or six months like what is it you know that's what I'm
fascinated to learn more about the other thing that I'm curious to do not today
or this week but relating to the same area is actually dropping the LTV raising
the LTV again instead of going to 50% going to 67% and the reason why I want
to do that is because once again you create a better deal for the for the
borrowers you make it a safer for the protocol and you create a loan that I
don't think exists within DeFi like I don't think you can get a 67% LTV on any
loan with a DeFi at least nothing I'm aware anybody else knows about one you
know let me know or whatever but I'm pretty sure I've never heard of it and
you might see what I'm what I would hope to see it's kind of like a vampire
attack right we saw a good example of a vampire
attack was we saw that when sushi first launched back in 20 what was that 2018
I think it was I want to say 2017 2018 and where sushi launched they had this
new token called sushi and you can mine it through liquidity mining blah blah
and a lot of the capital of the LTV that was in Uniswap exited and they almost
like there's they lost like 80% something crazy like that of their LTV
and I'll just flood it into sushi like literally in like in a week it was like
in a few days even it was kind of crazy to watch now I'm not saying that's
what's gonna happen to Thorgy I'm not trying to make predictions of that or
something like that I'm just saying that's an example of what a vampire attack looks
like so when you have a lending system right that can offer a much better deal
than what any other lending protocol can do not what they do do today but what
they can do they can't safely do a 67% LTV it just wouldn't make sense it's too
risky for the borrower to do that in our case it's not because our design is
so different and so what happens in the when you have a situation when you have a
lending protocol that is remarkably different than everybody else and
therefore can provide a better deal than anything else can do is there going to
be a mass exodus from Ave compound you know whatever whatever into the
four-chain system because it's just better you six spent LTV you get zero
percent interest locked in at that and you get no liquidations and you get no
expiry expiration be alone I mean that's pretty fucking awesome I mean like you
cannot look me with a straight eye and tell me that isn't ridiculously amazing
right and in the lending market in general is absolutely massive it's
bigger than than the AMM market in fact right when we have an opportunity to do
that in a really big way and and do it not just for the East people which is
what most of lending is today vast majority of it is but do it for the
entire industry including later one Bitcoin that's fucking I don't know that
that's me I'm just blown away by that I think that's just so innovative it's so
different and such a better value for the industry that it gets me really
interested and really excited about it so I'm I want to do this 20% sorry
200% CR aka 50% LTV in the meantime it's kind of a stepping stone but I'm
interested maybe in another few months six months whatever it's gonna be to
raise that LTV up to 67% and then see how the market reacts but I think it
might be fairly strong yeah man great explanation and so so this ADR is just
to just to raise the L or lower you know it's to change the LTV to 50% essentially
so that's what the votes on great explanation on what the lending
protocol is and it seems like the like the devs are pretty unanimously in
favor there's definitely some people that are you know there's people that
are just against the lending protocol in the first place which is also fair
criticism but if I haven't seen any explicit feedback from the note
operators saying that they would disagree with this change so like right
now it's only looking like there's there's interest for this I know like
Pluto as you know studies in favor like I would be in favor of you know ADR 12
so now I'm not that I have a vote but you know I guess the notes are the ones
that vote on ADR so I haven't seen any notes that have explicitly said that
they wouldn't vote for it but only way to find out is by doing the vote so
we'll see what happens next week probably that's gonna be excited that's
gonna be really exciting just to watch how that unfurl it's like it's approved
and happens which hopefully it will it's I'm gonna be excited just to watch
it so much data collect Orion get your data ready do some data analysis crunch
those numbers yeah we need to get we need to get
Wiggum and Orion to start pumping out some in the other guy what's the name
Dan not Dan Kelly okay there's some guy who was a name like his name is like
twice or three times and a band band yeah that's a band band get that guy too
because they create they do a lot of good work and they create some really
good charts and it'll be really fascinating you'll see how the market
reacts to it could I make a quick comment I think it's important in an
open-source project for descent to be heard as well and they understand the
people in this space like yourself Chad and the thought chain account are
positive to this I'd like to hear from the other side who are negative as well
I think that's important to make sure that there's representation of the
different perspectives on a form like this and the other thing I would say is
Chad you've mentioned this before but you know burning or whatever this is it's
not reducing supply it's not a tokenomics you know degenerative want to
be central banking thing where you're trying to control supply to manipulate
economic outcomes it is being used to underwrite the lending correct I mean
it's it's burning the 60 million standby room is meant to give space right so
it's like we could put it this way we could just raise the cap without burning
anything and just like have it and just allow people to open loans you know
someone arbitrarily like there's nothing stopping us from doing that
right but because lending is because it's design is so new and the idea of
it's so novel and and and it's it's it's assumptions need to be tested in the
market you can't test it you know it on an excel sheet you need the real market
you need the real people you need real money and then so in order to do that in
a way that's as safe as possible for the protocol we try to utilize you know
some room that we've that we've allocated for some some purposes reallocate
for this purpose just to give protection to the network so that worst case
scenario is you know lending goes bad for some whatever the hell the reason
is and harm send the loans close which that never actually happens even when
no lending protocol collapses you know only half the loans are closed like that
was pretty much true with anchor that's true with like block 5 when they became
insolvent like really you only get like the worst case scenario is like half the
loans to close but let's imagine the worst case scenario and say it's 100%
you want to make sure that like that in our case it wouldn't actually cause an
inflation of the room token right room solvers always in 500 million that just
that's the hard cap it's not gonna mint 510 million or something like this it's
designed that now in order to do that to maintain the 500 million cap and that
and everybody including myself wants to maintain you have to get that capital
some from somewhere you know in order to kind of try out this idea right and so
initially use the 15 million room that's missing from supply due to people who
didn't upgrade their room from bet to to ruin to it to native room that was like
the kind of be kind of borrowed from that scenario basically you know it's
kind of like a free thing to borrow from and then you know we use that up we're
now at I think the 80 something for 82% whatever is of that cap of that first
15 million and now we got this 60 million that we're looking to use and
then we're asking the community if it's okay to use the 60 million for this
particular purpose which we're going to be voting on over the course of the next
week right and after that point we can just decide about like how we want if you
want to further scale it you know how do we want to do after that point and
there's a lot of different ways to think about it we can say we're gonna
change the lending lever to be instead of one third of the missing room we'll
do one half right and that'll create more space or we could say all right
we're gonna do it differently we're gonna allow be it relative to the pools
right we're not gonna allow loans to be open that are greater than pool value
itself I don't know this you can kind of change the way you think about the caps
and that and that sense as well so it's all it's all very different but I think
one thing I want people to understand is that when we say burning 60 million
from the standby reserve I think people get confused and they think that we're
gonna reduce the supply by 60 million which is not technically accurate
because the room that's in the reserve standby or active it's not part of
circulating supply right so the circulating supply of room is gonna be
stay the same so while people may you know who are confused might buy room to
cause the room price to pump in that sense that's not what this is about we're
not trying to get the room price to pump because we're burning 60 million but
that's just misconception from people who who may be falling into that we're
purely just taking room that's out of supply and we're removing it from the
total supply and theoretically that supply could get minted back just
because long lending goes terribly something happens blah blah blah whatever
it happens and and all that 60 million room that we burnt get minted back and
you know and we're back to where we started kind of more or less right so I
want to be clear about that and I want to know I'll misconstrue things I make
sure people understand the implications of it that helped crypto sale yeah
absolutely and I as you say it is just confusion and I think one really
important thing about for chain is to make sure it's distinguished from all
the garbage crypto that's out there I think some of us who are naturally
attracted to quality projects and want to see this technology evolve in a
positive way don't pay attention to that so it seems like there's a lot of good
stuff going on in crypto but from the outside looking in it's mostly quite
cringy I don't know how a more a different word to use but so that I
think that's maybe even just the word burn is a better if a better term was
used maybe that would help to alleviate confusion yeah that is the actual
technically correct term because what's actually going to happen is we're going
to make a code change and do a KV store migration in which case we will take 60
million room from the standby wallet and then just call the burn module and burn
it but if there's a better term that you can think would be more clear or
better then let me know yeah thank you very much appreciate it all guys cool
I'd say let's call it here thanks everyone for for coming out and yeah
again we'll be in it Denver if you guys are gonna be there meet up on the second
march we're gonna do a happy hour with coinage and Zach Guzman and and their
team and yeah sounds good guys yep first person to arrive at the event and he's
ever gets the cuddle with a familiar cow so
you don't want to come on you're the cuddle cow come on I don't even have
words I'm just volunteering you for a cuddle don't worry about it's fine it's
fine don't worry about okay yeah we'll talk we'll talk all right see you all