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THORCHAIN THORSDAY WITH CHAD BARRAFORD
Recorded: March 12, 2026 Duration: 2:09:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
how much I wait for this day to escape from the banality of life with the normies. I get to talk
the real talk with my friends. I get to chat with you and answer your questions. I am so excited,
and I'm sure Kenton's going to have a banger update for us. I can't wait to hear from them.
Let's get this introduction out of the way. You guys, for those who do not know,
ThorChain is the world's leading Bitcoin decks. You can swap Bitcoin with 10 different blockchains across 40 different pools without using bridges or wrap tokens. Check it out at
swap.thorchain.org. That's swap.thorchain.org. Anyone in the world can use ThorChain. There is
no account open. There is no KYC required. ThorChain has two tokens, RUNE and TCY. The fees for swapping on ThorChain are paid
in RUNE, and that's where the yield comes from. The fees are deducted from the swap, so you don't
need to own RUNE to trade on ThorChain. Isn't that nice? 10% of the protocol's revenue goes to
TCY token holders as well. Remember to stake the TCY tokens in order to collect this yield there are no inflationary
block rewards therefore the yield is real money paid by real users rune is also currently
deflationary as five percent of the revenue is burned thor chain is a full layer one with the
ability to create smart contracts on it similar to ethereum this app layer is being developed by
regira if you need help with ThorChain in general,
join the ThorChain community Discord and Telegram group.
Links for those are on ThorChain.org.
And guys, please follow ThorChain on Facebook and Instagram
and ThorChain Contact on TikTok.
We need 1,000 followers to live stream on those platforms.
Please, guys, just make an account and follow,
and then we can get this show on there as well.
And always remember, guys,
this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute financial
investment or legal advice and with that out of the way you guys i'm going to introduce myself my
name's denny i've been working with thor chain for half a decade now love it i breathe it i live it
i love educating about it it's so much fun and I can't wait to tell you guys more about
it. But with that being said, I'm going to kick it to Kenton, my main man. What's going on, Kenton?
Hey, man. Good. Thanks. I'm trying to take a bit of a vacation, but it's not working out.
Sucker.
I'm busy for you guys. Things come to me and I just, I'm the bottleneck, right? So if I, if I wait, it's delayed. So, um, I'm still working for you guys. And, uh, maybe I'll, I'll do a quick
screen share. Um, give me one second here. Oh, uh, Denny, while he's doing the, um, screen share,
maybe if you want to send me access to the ThorChain TikTok,
I might be able to start just posting some videos or whatever
just to help get to that thousand number, you know?
Yeah, Kenton, I think he has the perms on that, if I'm not mistaken.
With the Coke.
We'll connect you with the Coke chat.
Oh, with Coke.
I'll talk to you with the Coke later,
but maybe I can just start just
posting a few videos uh yeah i don't know just talking about stuff or things i don't know you
know what it would be but like just to start getting followers i suppose that'd be awesome
that'd be that's a sick idea love it yeah so uh can you guys see the massari yes we can yep so
uh this is one of the things been uh i got a dashboard
created for thor chain on massari so this is like i don't have an account with massari so anybody
listening you go to the sorry's home page um and you see your spotlight new and you click on that
and um so showing ethereum right now so he's good there's Thor chain there's
Thor chain and so I thought it is down here so you click on it and brings us
this whole dashboard here summary Thor chain some metrics this is AI updated
by AI like pulling from like articles online. And then we've got all these revenue, volume, all the stuff down here.
And this is all custom.
So like this is what I've been going back and forth with Masari over the last two months on.
Getting this all done and what should be there.
Is it right? Is it wrong?
Shout out to ray analytics uh ray was instrument
instrumental in in helping get like the data for all these feeds and helping masari so you can see
here source reanalytics um so getting masari tied into our data um so this dashboard is, anyone can view it.
And so when people are on Masari and they, you know, playing around and they click on ThorChain, they should come here.
And I'm still working with Masari to finish getting ThorChain showing up in all their different um uh like screens like when you you know search for protocols with revenue and stuff to make sure Thorchain pops up um so hopefully that'll be
done here in the next week or two and um then yeah I'm gonna be on it I'm gonna be like really
anal make sure every little thing is done, is updated.
And then once I get, once Masari is done, then I can focus on DeFi Llama.
That's next on my list guys.
And same thing, get everything all dialed in, all the metrics make sense. They all work and get that done.
And I think I jumped ahead a bit, sorry.
I'm working on Masari and our website, the ThorChain.org site.
That's getting closer to finished.
Once those two things are done, then I'm going to focus on DeFi Llama.
STO, the swap site, is coming along.
We just added the ability, when you connect your your wallet to see your tokens on the right.
There's little quirks in that that need to be fixed still, but it's coming. We'll improve it.
So that's kind of the next thing that's going to be done now in STO.
on STO. So that should make the, you know, the experience for you much better. And then
So that should make the experience for you much better.
we've got a dashboard done for integrating wallets. So I can go in, Chad, Denny, Randy.
I talked to Randy earlier, Chad, the new guy. He can go into this dashboard, create an API key,
give it to a wallet and send the link to the docs and the wallet boom
here you go integrate door chain and um so i'll send you the the login for that too um yeah so
that's good api is free right any wallet can use it we've already got native swap using it. I'm in a Kate Wallets Express interest, so hopefully get them going. Someone else?
That's awesome. If the audience can't hear, Coke just chimed in. I don't think they can hear Coke.
But then TCP swap reached out. I've't know. I've never heard of them.
You guys have heard of them,
but they're interested in,
in integrating the API.
It's me.
What's wrong Coke?
I would hear a woman's voice in the background.
You can hear her.
Yeah.
Oh shoot.
Yeah.
Oh no.
Okay.
Let me,
I'm done.
I'm done with my update.
Let me see if I can fix this.
You guys go ahead.
Yeah.
No, you're doing great.
You're doing great, man.
Really, though, speaking of metrics and data and Randy,
Randy and I had a meeting earlier this week with a team called Token Terminal,
which feeds information into Masari by
the way they also feed information into like coin gecko coin it is maybe even
see I'm not quite sure we had a meeting with them with one of the biz biz people
just to kind of evaluate like what they do and the value they provide these kind
of things but it's closely aligned to what you're you're doing Kent so i i should probably pull you into that conversation just to include you in the in
the i didn't realize that you were you're working on this messari stuff until just now uh please
because like like i want to do them artemis i want to be in all of those it's just it's just
a question of money block works um but they're all like 100 grand each and yeah if the if the treasury is willing
to pay for it let's do it 100 let's get them all let's do them all um i just i don't have the funds
for the marketing budget so i gotta like piecemeal it right yeah i mean the the treasure's gonna have
that kind of conversation about you know um yeah the money of it all 100 100 grand he's what do you say 100 grand a week
is it what you say what do you say each no it's 100 grand a year oh a year um and one might be 80
one might be 120 but it's that's the ballpark as well 100 grand a year for each platform um
for the main ones artemis token terminal block works um and then missari and then i maybe there's another one i'm
forgetting but um yeah yeah yeah 100 i i and i know each platform it's the same data i get it
same with dune i understand you guys but the users aren't on you know there's gonna be certain users
on token terminal certain users on blockworks certain users on missworks, certain users on Missari, right? They're not on all of them and we need to be everywhere.
And, um, um, and those are more for, you know, targeting investors, right.
As opposed to, to users.
But, um, like with, with Blockworks, they want to start getting integrated
into a Bloomberg and start posting stuff there.
And that was one of the things that kind of pitched me on just starting it.
So if we went with them, we'd be like one of their first crypto projects going on to
Bloomberg.
And for people, listeners don't know, Bloomberg is like, like Masari for TradFi.
Like it's, it's the OG research platform that everyone on Wall Street has a Bloomberg terminal
and like they all know
how to use it. So like, and you'll see people, you know, these old school TradFi guys posting
screenshots of the Bloomberg terminals. And so when, when the TradFi journalists come to crypto,
you know, if we can have our Thor chain data on Bloomberg and they want to screen for cryptos
and we're like one of the first
cryptos on Bloomberg right like that's huge especially when our metrics appeal to them
you know this is why I hammer out the hammer down the price earnings ratio and and the actual um
you know all of our revenue is real this is stuff like real investors want to see and um they can't
see it unless we're on the platforms so um you know we definitely got to stomach the cost and do it um so sorry chad interrupt you
kind of want to run with this but um absolutely we definitely want to do these yeah yeah no i
i agree it's just a question of of budget and all that kind of stuff right
um yeah that's great uh what's next on the list of budget and all that kind of stuff, right?
Yeah, that's great.
What's next on the list?
Well, Chad, how have you, we didn't, we mean, we went to me, we went to Kenton.
So, you know, I forget sometimes, you know, we're talking to an audience that may not know who we are.
So maybe Chad, if you want to just do a quick introduction of yourself and then, you know, how, how have you, how's this last week been, you know, 3.16 went
live. Maybe we'll go from there. Yeah. So yeah, those who don't know me, I'm sure a lot of you
do, but if you don't, my name is Chad Barrefour. I'm a, I was the technical co-founder of Thor
Chain back in 2019, a long time ago now, I guess. Well well it feels like a long time ago at least and so you
know I've been in the code since day one and it's the last time I looked it was I'm still the largest
contributor in terms of like number of lines or whatever to the project so and I'm actively
technically leading the technical way in the project and pushing us forward on features and roadmap and other stuff like that.
So that's me in a nutshell.
Yeah, we just got 316 came out, I think, like last week, Thursday, I think it was.
We got Solana back online trading again.
We're probably going to be adding more liquidity soon
To the pool we're trying to figure how much that's gonna be it's not gonna be a huge amount like on purpose
I'm trying to find my little tab. I had where I had all my my things going on
But now I'm all lost too many tabs lost in tabs
Yes, we're rolling out v6 of the router uh that's continue on that's me like every two weeks
we're probably gonna launch it on new chain i believe uh zcash hopefully coming out in like
may-ish maybe maybe maybe april possibly if things get a little bit you know um if we get a little bit interesting hopefully roll as you
cash out in May maybe maybe April and then probably rapid swaps would probably
flipped on next week either Monday or Tuesday probably and we'll be you know
monitoring that to see how that see how that performs and how that does that's pretty pretty neat and then we'll be cutting 317 I think like April 3rd I
want to say or something like that we already have by the way in 317 we have
like 50 mr. 48 mr.s merged with another currently 18 pending trying to get in so by the time we get to the actual cut well
we should be around like I don't know probably 80 I'm gonna guess something like this oh 80 code
changes that's just it's just crazy are these gonna be fatter or are they just what do you
think fatter and I enter the size or fatter terms of like yeah yeah they are because uh the reason why is
because um when hugan's writing like going through and fixing things or whatever it was just too slow
for it to fix everything one at a time it's just like just you some small issue be a code change
and some small issue another code change and to get the the devs to like you know review it all it was just more time-consuming and so
now it's really doing like that mostly batches of like 10 issues at once just
so we can move quicker through most of these issues are pretty small little
tweaks and not really big deal so it's a good it's kind of batch them up even
the the large PR somewhere was talking about last week,
about that 46,000 line change, the adding unit test,
that actually got closed because the devs didn't want to review it.
Because the devs didn't want to review a 46,000 line go change for some reason.
I don't know why, but, you know, that's what it was.
And so I closed it down temporarily and I'm just
gonna reopen it in many PRs just to take one really large PR and then shrink it
down to like many small ones so it's a bit more adaptable and on the inverse
side he would take in very too many small PRs and then larger it's kind of
kind of funny we're going both sides of the of the of the spectrum here
but in any case you know we're moving along quite well that's really hilarious in fact okay i have
to put in a question this is actually from yesterday but it's on youtube right so it's a
bit of a spicy question but this person's like this is in reference to a soundbite that we dropped
uh last week chad about you saying about the 46,000 lines of code.
And this guy, he just cannot believe it. He's like, this has to be rage bait.
What are your unit tests actually testing? Are you going to read 46,000 lines of code for 200 tests?
Is that worth the time? That's the question. If you want to take that.
Yeah, so I'll tell you, I'll be honest with you. Like, when it comes to unit tests, don't really care.
So I'll tell you, I'll be honest with you.
Like when it comes to unit tests, don't really care.
It's not, it's not, like it's, it's not about making sure that every unit test is like exactly
knick-knack, you know, patty whack, give a dog a bone.
It's more about just getting the coverage in so that you know that when you make a change
later that changes the behavior in a way that's, you know, unintuitive or whatever, that you get
the instant feedback that something has changed, maybe that you didn't intend. And having that
feedback is not as good for me as a developer, but it's also good for like AI as a feedback of
like, hey, we made this change and then this thing broke or whatever. And that kind of like,
I mean, like I say, it's kind of RLE in some ways from an AI perspective,
but it's like having that kind of ability to verify the change and know if you've changed
the behavior in one direction or the other is just really valuable.
So to be honest, I wasn't really intending to like even review that code with any kind
of seriousness, to be honest with you, other than just making sure that its structure is correct and you know it's it's it's stays uh you know it has continuity with like with style and how things
should be structured or formatted or whatever but like for the for the other devs they they had a
slightly different perspective which is perfectly fine and and i'm happy to to adjust to what's you
know what they want to see but they they want to have it broken down to smaller pieces,
so we'll break it down to smaller pieces.
That's perfectly fine.
And for those who don't know, last week we were talking with Chad Bareford.
These big 46,000 lines of code, this was done in approximately 12 hours,
whereas if Chad had done this manually, and I think probably your sole focus,
this would have taken you weeks if not months to do, right?
Yeah, it would have been exhausting to go through that time.
So that is just, yeah, incredible exponential increase of capability.
And that's for just something that just, you know, that's like that work that, you know, it's not super important, but, you know, but it's done.
Yeah, it's like not super important.
It's what we call tech debt is the word we use in the industry of like you've you grow a debt over
time of technical things that you have to go back and fix or refactor or whatever and every code
base always produces tech debt this is nothing unique to thor chain this is like this is just
how engineering works in general everything has always has tech debt and ai is like nobody really
likes tech debt other than because it's usually just kind of painful to go back. It's like the kind of arduous, painful work that nobody really wants to do.
People want to do, like, the fun feature stuff for the most part, right?
So it's not something that gets a lot of, like, you know,
a lot of excitement around it.
So to have Hugin be able to do that,
I don't mind making Hugin a little bitch.
You can do the bitch work.
That's fine. I don't have a problem with making Huguen a bitch.
But he can go through and do all that. He can look for that stuff where I can assign him technical debt and have him do a lot of that work.
Especially because Huguen's not great at doing big changes on its own, right? Like if you're making a huge code change in the sense of like complexity or whatever,
adding a feature, for example,
you don't want Huguen doing that by itself
because you need a human by itself
or human with an AI kind of going back and forth
and kind of like playing off each other
through like a long process, right?
Like I was working on a PR this morning
that is like that.
And you can't just,
I wouldn't feel comfortable
assigning a Huguen by itself.
You want things that the Huguen can do
almost in a one-shot is the phrase we use in the industry.
Meaning that it can do one prompt
and it'll generate the correct answer the first time.
Maybe it'll get it wrong the first time a little bit
and you can just put a little comment in there
and it fixes it and carry on.
That's the stuff that you want to assign to Huguen.
Not so much large, like huge features or whatever.
But like this type of stuff of like, hey, just backfill some unit tests to bring the, you know, the, the, whatever the coverage is now to, you know, some larger number.
It doesn't matter what it is. It has the ability to go back and forth within itself to verify, oh, am I at, let's say 80% is the number we're going for, 80% coverage.
oh, am I at, let's say 80% is the number we're going for, 80% coverage, then it can see, oh, I'm not there yet.
Let's add some more. What else is not being tested yet?
And then it goes back and forth within itself to find the solution that it's looking for and produce the result that it's looking for
without needing a human to be involved and to tweak it and keep constantly kind of curving its path or giving it the right direction
of curving its path or giving it the right direction or just pushing in one direction or the
or just pushing in one direction or the other.
other. Hugin can do that kind of stuff very effectively without human engagement, which is
why I could run it for 12, 16 hours, whatever it is, while I was sleeping at night and not really
worry that I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and the whole code base is gonna be like tanked, burned or
whatever. I had no concern about that. That's why I didn't mind doing it in this particular instance.
So I'm gonna keep on doing that and just giving
Kugin more work and break it up into smaller changes
to appease with the interests of the other devs in the team.
But unit tests, it's just one thing, by the way.
There's also regression tests, right?
There's also simulation tests.
Like there's lots of tests that we can do that
the Kugin can be kind of working on as one of its tasks
that it achieves for the code base to bring up that quality of testing that we already have.
Perfect.
Would you have to have like different AIs trained for the different types of testing?
Or one AI can do all those three or five?
Yeah, one AI can do it all.
I mean, I've been considering the idea of introducing a second, of introducing OpenAI's codex model into the system
and creating a second entity called Immunin.
It's like Hugen and Immunin.
Immunin would be like OpenAI,
and Hugen would be like Anthropics Claude
and then have these two separate entities.
They're both doing more or less the same thing within the project but they also have each other as a communication pipe between the two of them to
like ask the other person a question or challenge each other on their findings and because they have
different models that are trained in different ways they might have a different way of achieving
the same goal or or finding a way of testing this or solving this problem or finding this bug or
having a different kind of set of eyes, if I can use that word, even though they don't have eyes,
obviously, but to be able to converse with each other and ask each other questions to verify each
other's findings, to give up even reducing false positives even more, but also introducing a way
to help each one.
When one gets stuck and can't seem to solve the problem or whatever, it could, instead of talking
to me or waiting for me to be prompted, like me coming back and give it some, some feedback or
some direction, theoretically could ask Munin or the other guy, the same question who has a
different worldview that might be able to help him get beyond the issue. I think that's kind of a fascinating notion that I haven't started building quite yet,
but it is kind of the idea that I've been kind of playing with in the back of my skull.
Super cool. Super cool.
Well, guys, we always got to talk about Hugin. You know how it is.
And we'll probably talk about Hugin again later on.
But there is something that did happen, Chad, and I was wondering.
Limit swaps did get
turned back on right before before we change the ai subject can i ask something chad yeah so um um
i was chatting with uh ibeck about sto and i asked him like well how do we make the front end like
ai friendly the bots can use it right and whatnot whatnot. And they've been kind of working on something
where we can actually create like a,
you know, there's Claude bots, right?
That's what it's called, right?
Claude bot, where you can make your own personal AI,
go do stuff.
We can make like a ThorChain bot
where people can have like its own personal AI trading.
And it would only be all memoless.
But he's like, he said it's actually be
relatively easy to do set up and you could have this we could have these store chain bots it
could work in telegram or slack or discord whatever you know channel you want to use um
i don't know what do you guys think about that if that's something we should explore for something
i told him i'm like this is i'm just curious conceptually but like don't don't start any work on it but should
we start working on something like this um yeah i i have some some some uh opinions on this like
um i in general anybody who tells me they're they're giving real money to a open claw bot or
whatever i should i would advise that person
to not do that unless it's like play money for you like you don't care if you lose it all then
that's probably fine you're just having some fun you know you can put 100 bucks in it if you lose
if you lose 100 bucks like you're not gonna you know uh be eating uh ramen every day for the next
six months um so i would advise against it because it's just like AI models or LLMs in general are not
trading tools necessarily and I know people like to think of them as generalized artificial
intelligence that can do anything but in reality it's like it's probably should not be used in this
particular way if I'm being honest with you. That said people are still going to do what people are
going to do like no one's no one's really going to listen to me and not trade probably, to be honest with you.
And so we can build that kind of stuff.
So that would be like creating a skill, for example, would be one way of doing it,
which is just a skill would just be educating the LLM or preconditioning or prewarming its context
to understanding certain API endpoints of where it can get its data from,
where it can broadcast a transaction, how that transaction should be structured,
how to monitor that transaction after it's been broadcast,
and how to get the balances of your wallets, whatever that is.
That can be done, and it's not like a huge amount of work.
And to be honest, that can be done by somebody in the community rather like myself or one of the other devs who are working on the core protocol
like if there's somebody in the community that wants to build something like that i know like
boone's been talking to me about wanting to build something and contribute to the project uh in one
way or another and maybe that person he's a smart guy too and he knows a lot about like trading i
think uh so maybe he'd be a good person for this for this kind of thing but yes you could totally
like build that kind of stuff it's not even hard and you i don't think you need to
do anything special to the the swap interface because it's just going to be doing what humans
do right like that's all these lms do they read as we read they use uis as you we use uis they use
clis as we use clis so forth and so on So I don't think we need to do anything special necessarily.
We just need to have a document that just informs the context
of like where the APIs are, how to query them,
how to broadcast transactions, how to check statuses,
how to check wallet balances, all that kind of stuff,
which is not, you know, it's not a lot of work
or that difficult to do.
And we can just open source it and say,
hey, if you want to start trading you know
with thort chain blah blah blah with your open claw bot or whatever it is uh you can totally do
that here's how to do it cool okay cool but i agree with you like it's it's not up to us to
pass judgment on people's trading habits or what they do we just want to trade through us whatever
you're buying or selling however you're doing it we don't that's up to We just want them trade through us. Whatever you're buying or selling, however you're doing it, that's up to you. Just flip the trade through Thorchain.
Sorry, Dan. Give us your fees.
Yeah, exactly. No, Kenton, you messed me up, Kenton, because I was trying to do a little
self-help by trying to get away from Huguen because I'm addicted to talking about it. But see,
now I thought of something. So now I have to ask Chad more about Huguen. So, Chad, a new version of Cloud went live.
I saw they were saying now it does like, well, you use it for this purpose as it is,
but it's like official, like this is now going to audit code.
Have you already implemented that update, if you know what I'm talking about?
The newest versions of Cloud itself?
Yes, I believe that's what it was.
Yeah, I mean, the way the system is kind of designed that every time I deploy a code change of Hugen's code,
a new version of Cloud comes inherently with it.
So it's always on the edge.
It's always on the edge of whatever the official release of Cloud code actually is,
or whatever the model is.
It should pick up the most recent model whenever it drops uh naturally
that's right because you said that it does not it doesn't store experience right it's just it's just
always it's a new fresh version of hugan every time it comes at something that's right that's
right well it's more complicated than that i mean like hugan runs within a docker container to
isolate it from the rest of the the computers because I don't want Huguen doing anything crazy.
It's like I contain Huguen in a kind of container
to make sure that he doesn't do anything destructive.
But that container gets rebuilt every time a new code change happens,
which includes building the clod code version
that is installed within the container that Huguen's operating within.
So that's a natural thing to happen.
Every time I make a code change of any kind and redeploy it, it also redeploys with a new version of clod.
It's probably a difficult question.
How do you think about allocating your time?
in your time like if you have a version of hugan that looks at the entire code base of thor chain
um do you try that whole same thing in on the very next version of like uh of of a cloud version like
how do you how do you prioritize like what should hugan recheck given it may have new capabilities
or is there just so much that it's just you just go in a big giant loop the whole time it's a big
giant loop it takes like two weeks for hugan to crawl through
the entire code base so the the the style if you want to call or architecture if you want to call
design i don't know i don't know what language you want to use to get hugan to do the code review
effectively there's a bunch of things that happens but one of those things is what i call uh folder
file and function which is basically meaning like if you ask Kugan or Claude or whatever
to here's a big giant code base with, you know,
hundreds of thousands of lines of code in it,
find me some bugs.
It doesn't know where to look.
It's obviously like huge amounts of code.
And every time you ask that question,
it'll probably find some different issue
that it didn't find the previous time
because it's the way that it functions.
And so it doesn't know to look wide or look narrow or anything these things so it starts
in one attempt it looks at like everything and then the next attempt which is like 15 minutes
later it looks at one directory and then it looks at one file in that directory then looks at one
function within that within that file and so it's it's starting very large and broad in its search,
and then it narrows down into a small little function,
and it looks for any problems within that particular function.
So it looks very narrowly and looks very broad,
and then it knows how things connect across these kind of layers,
if you want to call it that.
I'm not sure what to call it.
But it does that on its own so that it can find problems on the minuscule
but also on the grand kind of layers abstraction as well.
In theory, that's how it should work, and it's been working fairly well so far.
I mean, it's found, like, hundreds of issues that are mostly just very small,
like, not meaningful issues, and, like like it doesn't actually cause any real problems.
Theoretically on paper, it could,
but the chances of that happening are near and near,
but it's still good to patch it anyways, you know?
Yeah, well, I mean, the proof's in the pudding.
Last update was 96 PRs.
And I think you said, I'm sorry,
you said we're already up to like 50 or something right now
and we're not, yeah, it's crazy.
So Kenton, did you have anything else
you want to add to this before I? Yeah, maybe just a follow-up um i can't remember where you said it chad or
maybe if you wrote it discord i can't remember but yours um are other people other people are
using ai to audit or chain and submitting bug bounties and you've noticed an uptick in that
and are these what are the quality of those reports like are they actually
finding like some good stuff and it's valid and you need to fix uh the vast majority are are very
very small right like are the and and the bounties we're giving out to the vast majority of those
people are small little bounties that are really just kind of like a thanks for trying in some ways you know um it does seem that people are
are trying to you know use clod or codex or one of these things to generate a lot of money for
themselves uh well not for all but some of them would generate a lot of money without doing any
actual work you know uh we actually changed our uh our bug bounty bounty policy partly because of this.
Just because the market has changed, how things work has changed.
I think at some point in time the bug bounty will maybe even go away possibly because of this. that um uh firefox i think it was firefox uh did a like a beta program with with with anthropic
of their new security code review product they haven't released yet it's like in this like
pre-trial phase or whatever and their system had found five severe uh exploits into mozilla's
firefox browser which which was one-fifth of all of the exploits discovered
in the last, I don't know, two years or something like this. And AI did that. So it's like
the industry is changing and shifting in a way that the way you find these bug bounties is also
structurally changing, as well as the way that I code is structurally changing as well.
And if you are a security researcher, your job just got a lot easier, but really it got a lot
harder because I have access to those tools as the developer behind a code base and I am actively
using those tools to do so, which means that your job to find a security hole that I can't find or haven't found just became a little bit of a smaller kind of hole to hit, you know, a smaller bullseye on the bullseye board, so to speak, on the dartboard.
So I think this is kind of bad news in some ways for security researchers as well, because now you have to be cream of the cream of the crop in order to make any kind of reasonable wage in this industry, I think.
But we'll see how things move over the next five years.
But everything's shifting.
Everything's changing.
I mean, it's changing incredibly fast.
Even if it doesn't change anymore
from how it's changed right now, it still
affects everything in such drastic nature
of how technology works.
It's hard to explain that in a way that makes sense
because I've never seen this.
I'm 43 years old.
I've never seen a transformation like this in technologies
other than maybe the closest thing would be like the Internet itself.
That would be the closest analogy.
And I would argue it's not as big or as important as what AI is doing for the world.
Yeah.
So then that sounds good to me.
It sounds like good news.
So like you and Hugen are finding this stuff, being proactive.
What's coming from these bounties is like so-so like minor stuff so then and we've had you
know knock on wood you know we have nothing has happened so like nothing negatives happen no
exploits so it's like we're staying ahead of the curve right yeah yeah that's really good to hear
yeah there was actually earlier uh early this year back in early January, we had a bug report of a potential way of exploiting funds out of the network.
And we already were – there was like a two-parter to this thing.
We were already aware of one of the two parts, and you need both parts in order to be able to extract funds.
the two parts and you need both parts in order to be able to extract funds.
We were already aware of the first part because Hugen had found one of the two parts itself,
uh, I think like five days prior, like down, like that kind of level. So like, that's like a really
great example of like, there was a real exploit here that could have, you know, it could have,
uh, led to like lost funds. Very hard to actually execute in reality, but theoretically on paper it would work.
But we were already aware of it, and we were already actively patching it by the time this person had submitted this issue.
But, again, it was an actual real severe P0 exploit.
But we were already aware of it, and saved the treasury, you know, probably close to
hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not close to a million dollars in bug bounty payouts
because we were already aware of it. We already had Hugin as a reporter, you know, reporting it,
you know, five days prior, right? Nice. You saved, you saved the treasure that money, Chad,
because you're the one that started the Hugin, right? Like you jumped on this right away.
So I don't want you to be shy about this.
This was you saving this protocol money.
So shout out to you, good sir.
Like that is so awesome.
I'm happy to save the protocol some money or the treasury more accurately.
But like, because, you know, that treasure has got to last for as long as we can make it last for.
We have to be as fiscally responsible as we can.
And that goes back to where we were talking with kenton earlier about you know shelling up money to you know all these different you know uh data networks or whatever which
they're all great in a sense but then we also have to think about you know what is the long-term
you know um position of that of that treasury how long we have to make it work and what income can
it make and you know all that kind of stuff that's a bigger question that's outside the confines of this conversation.
Yeah, it is a big conversation.
Kenton, do we have anything else?
Go ahead.
No, I was going to add to that just to kind of remind the audience, my strategy, the way I was approaching these token terminals, these other data platforms, how to prioritize it.
um you know how to prioritize it you know when do we actually pull the trigger so the way i viewed
When do we actually pull the trigger?
it is we we prioritize getting with users prioritize getting volume and that'll help
drive up the room price and that's the best marketing for investors you can ask for is
driving up is your token price going up and um because if we well and then and then with that
increase in volume increase token price then we have more money in the marketing fund.
We have more funds to allocate to stuff like this.
And then when we actually go to investors and tell them about door chain, they see growth.
They see performance in room price.
They see growth in all the metrics on door chain.
And that's what investors need to see.
When they see everything flatlining or trending down, that's what they project into the future.
We need them to see metrics going up, so they project that into the future and calculate
all this blue sky, and that's when they justify buying or paying more than the current price.
So if we go for all these, if we spend all this money to go for investors to buy Rune
today, fine, it might work, but it could just be a flash in the pan.
Maybe we get a blip in the price.
We don't have any growth.
Nothing is changing.
Investors get impatient, and then they sell and leave.
So we spend all this money and time getting investors just for them to turn around and sell six months or a year later because we're not growing.
So I feel pretty
strongly that we got to focus on growth, get users, because users don't care about Rune or
the Rune price or even door chain in general, right? They just want easy places to swap.
So that should be an easier sell. It should be easier for us to get users users in volume get that get that going um and then we can focus more on on
trying to get investors um so yeah just to help add to that how i'm uh thinking about it prioritizing
it sounds solid to me sounds all to me well you guys should we transition um limit swaps that go
live should we transition to that now sure not much to talk about other
than just being flipped back on there was a bug relating uh i don't i don't remember what the bug
was i vaguely remember it not even being about limit swaps but it affected limit swaps or something
like this but that's flipped back on uh people are welcome to start trading again and with that kind
of thing if they want to although i don't think a lot of people are because there's no uis that
actually support it quite yet one thing that k Kenton's team might be interested in working on at some point.
It's there.
You can do limit swaps.
Oh, you can.
Yep.
And you can set a custom date or custom time for when you want it to expire now.
But there is one bug on the UI that your actual limit price, it's really buggy on actually entering the number,
the amount. So, I mean, you can eventually get the number you want, but it's like, it's just not,
there's something wrong and they're playing with it, trying to fix it. So be patient with us there,
guys, but you can enter limit orders on STO. Oh, nice. Nice. Beautiful. I'll do that. I'm
experimenting with that later today
well so okay limit orders is one part of it but then people want to know uh what about rapid swaps
right so maybe we go to there how what's that where are we looking on that front yeah i think
we're going to probably flip that live on like monday or tuesday i think um we'll make it so that
a rapid swap value of two,
which basically means it won't do more than two swaps
in a single block for any given trade.
So we're just turning on to the smallest number possible
to start.
I actually want to spend this weekend putting together
some tools to help me monitor the specific feature
on live on the main the magnet protocol to make sure
um things are you know moving in the direction that it should be moving and there's no
you know um issues whatsoever but uh that's when flip to two to start and then you know if everything's going well you know after like uh a week or so or whatever we'll flip it up to a higher
number and and the higher number just means the number of trades sub swaps that a single swap can do within a single block right so if the
number's at two you can instead of doing one swap per block you're doing two swaps per block which
also means like the number the time that it takes to do your trade is now halved right it's like
it's one one one half and if you do the three it's one third one four it's one fourth five with one fifth so forth and so on so you can really speed up the the this the swap
speed of streaming swaps done like a lot quicker right and as we increase this number the um the
quote standpoint would also be updated which means that that's informing SwapKit of its kind of analysis
of what is the efficiency of these trades
in terms of price performance
and time of execution.
And our time of execution will naturally
get quicker and quicker and quicker,
which means we'll be more and more competitive
against other chain flips and NIRs
and whatever else is in SwapKit world.
And so especially for like larger trades like if
you're doing like a ten dollar trade doesn't really the wraps pops i doesn't really help you
much but if you're doing like you know a million dollar trade it's going to significantly help you
you know in that way or even even even if like fifty thousand dollars is going to significantly
help you so we'll start getting i think a lot more of the larger trades and bidding against other you
know dexes out there as i hope that's the intention at least and we get a little bit more volume
coming in how will this how will this work alongside batched transactions will they
will they work well together is it what do you mean by batch batched transactions well like
with um so for bitcoin for example so like so like it's, you're going to, we're going to do, instead of each Bitcoin trade being an individual Bitcoin transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain network, we're going to take, say, 10 Bitcoin trades, combine that into one transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain.
Oh, on the outbound, you mean?
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Batch outbound is something we've been talking about for a while. Sorry, batch outbound.
Sorry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's actually four PRs that are open right now to enable this feature or get this feature
kind of like it hasn't even hit the mainnet quite yet. But yes, the intention of that is that when we send out 10 Bitcoin transactions, because a
bunch of people have swapped to Bitcoin, and instead of sending one, you know, one transaction
for each of those 10, so doing 10 signatures on 10 different transactions within one block or many blocks on the bitcoin blockchain it does it as a batch
as a batch outbound so we sign uh one signature for all 10. well technically it's not one
signature technically it's like the number however number of utxos you're signing to create the
however number of outputs bitcoin is unique in this in terms of how it's like it's got vins and
out vn outs and all these things but that's getting probably too much in the weeds.
But the point is that the TSS threshold signatures that we have, they can do less signatures to have the same amount of outputs,
meaning that the throughput of how fast our outbound signing can happen basically increases to...
I don't want to say infinite because that's probably not mathematically correct,
but we can sign as fast as the Bitcoin blockchain can take effectively.
And it's also more gas efficient,
so you'll be consuming less gas,
which makes our trading a little bit more competitive in that sense.
But it also means that our transactions will be more likely to be picked up
because it's putting a lot more value
in a shorter amount, smaller amount of space.
So the sats per byte or whatever it is
would be naturally probably a little bit higher,
which is good for a mining perspective
because the miners like high sats per byte
because they make more money in that direction.
So our transactions would probably be picked up easier or faster than what it is today, which is obviously also beneficial in that sense as well.
So how will batched outbounds work with rapid swaps?
Will there be any synergies between them or are they going to be kind of two totally separate?
They're two totally separate things that will, they both optimize individually of each other to find the most optimal way of batching or of rapid swapping.
Like they will just naturally each figure out what is the most effective or efficient way that I can achieve the most amount of throughput in the least amount of time. They're both like that, but the one's about TSS signing and one's about swaps and trades.
Okay. So the batch outbound, that's not necessarily making anything faster. It's just
making it more efficient. Yeah. You're not going to get your trade back faster because of it,
unless we have some sort of giant backlog of Bitcoin transactions or
something like this, which we don't generally see much anymore, partly because the markets,
you know, we're not trading as much as we used to trade because the market's just kind of down
and there's more competition, you can argue that. But there are scenarios where like we had problems
in the earlier years about TSS getting kind of out
of sync with each other and then not being able to sign because they couldn't quite get into a
place where they all kind of agree or what they're signing on or how they're going to sign in or
whatever there's a couple of scenarios where that was like broken years ago so we haven't seen like
a build up in the in the outbound kind of like you know queue if you want to call it that
in quite a while but it's just there to make sure that even if we were to see a build up we can sign
things as fast as possible and clear that up on queue because that also generally can affect you
know arbitrage as well because arbitrage needs to get their money into the system back out and then
trade through some other decks or sex or something like this and you want their money to come out as
fast as possible so they can put it back into the system and that does actually affect
rapid swaps because the faster that ARBs can ARB get their money in correct the price out
back through around back and around back and around the faster they can do this loop the
more efficient rapid swaps or the more value rapid swaps will provide to the community and the
faster you can get everyone your trades pushed to the network cool so it's like eating healthy
exercising getting sleep it all it all comes together it all yeah it's a big yeah they
they always relate in some sense or form it's maybe a little bit indirectly in some cases but
yes yeah well that was uh that was big breaking news, you guys.
Now, again, let Chad have some leeway here
with timeframes, of course,
but potentially rapid swaps could be turned on
Monday, Tuesday at the lowest value,
but even at the lowest value,
it will reduce a streaming swap time by 50%.
Yeah.
That sounds like a pretty big deal to me.
I don't know, you you guys but i love it
fantastic i can't we try to say something yeah good i was gonna say one caveat is though like
in order for it to do that too or whatever it needs arbs to arb and i'm not sure what arms
what time frame arms are going to start arbing on the rapid swaps kind of like level, right? Like they need to figure out,
I've just got to figure out how do I arb something
that is trading multiple times in a single block?
They got to figure that out,
which you could use limit swaps to achieve that goal.
That's one way of achieving that goal.
You could do it through a streaming swap
in the opposite direction.
That would also achieve the same thing.
Each arb manufacturer, bot thing, whatever,
is going to figure out their own kind of thing
and they're going to figure it out because they kind of have to because if they don't figure it
out somebody else will and if they're figuring it out then you're going to lose out money as an
arb bot so you have to like in order to be competitive you've got to you've got to come
with the protocol in this sense ruthless meritocracy just makes me feel so warm and
buttery on the inside, you guys.
I love that so much, where you just put people
in a, you know,
you give everyone a butter knife and you say,
figure it out, the best man wins,
you know what I mean?
Two men enter, one man leaves.
My point is that
the future will probably be turned on next week.
It may not be like,
activated within the network.
I mean,
I don't know how to phrase this without sounding like an idiot,
but like we need ARBs to do their job in order for it to work,
to do its job.
Right.
And so whatever timeframe it takes ARBs to kind of catch up to the
network,
that's when you start to see it actually take effect.
So the ultimate thing is the first ARB to really figure this out,
they win objectively,
right?
Just 100%. Yeah. The first ARB, they're going to make a, they're probably going to make a lot of money the first ARB to really figure this out, they win objectively, right? Yeah, the first ARB, they're going to make a lot of money the first ARB to figure this out
because they're going to be ARBing half the trades effectively automatically in some sense.
And so that would be very profitable in that scenario.
So first ARB to figure it out is going to be great.
And then the other ARBs, they're going to notice their income just dropped off a cliff.
They're like, what happened to my income?
And then they've got to go back to the drawing board and be competitive.
You guys are watching this right now.
The recording.
If you've got a friend, you know they're an arbitrager.
You show them this segment.
You tell them.
You best be ready for Monday or Tuesday because it's going to get real.
It's going to get real, 100%.
I love this so much.
Chad, correct me if I'm wrong,
but I thought you mentioned in the past
that you wanted the ARBs to start playing
with limit orders a bit more
and seeing some more depth in the limit orders
before turning on rapid swaps.
Did you say that?
And if you did, are you seeing that kind of depth?
Are you seeing ARBs lose limit orders?
So we've seen some ARBs lose limit orders in the context of stable to stable
because it's very easy.
You can set that up and forget it and walk away
because the pricing between those two stables to stables is the same,
and so it's easy to set that up.
Going across non-stable to non-stable is a little more complicated.
We haven't seen a lot of that yet.
And I was waiting for that before to go with the streaming rapid swaps because I wanted to make sure there was liquidity.
Like I wanted to give the ARBs there first, then turn on the rapid swaps.
And now I'm kind of saying the opposite.
And the reason why is because I had made some improvements to the rapid swaps kind of logic
so that it should be able to handle the situation where ARBs aren't there and not kind of screw over the users a little bit or like give them a slightly worse, by screw over I mean slightly worse trade.
It should be smart enough, I believe, hopefully, if everything works the way I think it should work, should be able to just not use rapid swaps.
And the kind of the analogy I have is that like,
if it's kind of like rapid swaps becomes like an escalator
that when the escalator like can't do
what the escalator is supposed to do,
it just becomes stairs, right?
And so it still works.
You can go up to the second floor of the mall, whatever,
just by walking up to the escalator.
But like, you know, you want the escalator to be, you know, pulling you up to the second floor of the mall, whatever, just by walking up to the escalator. But you want the escalator to be pulling you up
to the second floor.
And so this was a code change that I hadn't thought of
in my first go around that I thought about later,
and realized that we could make it more efficient in this logic
sense.
So I believe it's safe to turn it on without having the ARBs
there, and it won't affect swappers
in any kind of measurable way,
at least to the best of my knowledge. And then when ARBs start like ARBing within that,
then it should start to like naturally, the escalator will turn on in a matter of speaking.
Okay. Well, we do have a question exactly on this topic I'm going to put on screen now.
They want to, when rapid swaps are fully working, How will they affect big swaps and all swaps in general?
Yeah, so big swaps.
So we had a really big swap last month.
It was like $32 million or something like this.
It's obviously a mega large trade.
From memory, I think it took about 12 hours
for that streaming swap to go through, right?
That's, you know, I think that's pretty good, to be honest with you.
Like, 12 hours is pretty, like, that's not too crazy,
considering the $30 million, like, that's an enormous trade, you know.
But that said, you know, depending upon how fast ARBs can ARB,
that would be executed a lot faster.
Like, theoretically, it could be executed in an hour rather than 12 hours if arbs are arbing.
If the value is at 2, what we were talking about, it would go from 12 hours to 6 hours.
If it's at 3, 6 hours to 4 hours, it's at 5, so forth and so on.
And so it can scale.
But the question again comes down to are to like, are ARBs arbing,
you know, in that timeframe.
So it's more a measurement of how fast ARBs
can get money into the system to correct the price
and then go get their other asset back,
whatever it is through a DEX or a SEX,
whatever the time that takes,
bring it back into the network
and then correct the price again
and just do that kind of arn loop that they tend to do.
However fast they can do that is however fast that trade will execute.
Yeah, well, this is the perfect incentive.
When you have the incentive is making money, like they're going to figure it out.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, you want to be as quick as possible because the faster you move, the more money you make.
Because if you're not fast, somebody else is going to be a little bit faster, right?
And so you want to be as fast as possible.
And you want to have a lot of liquidity.
Like the more liquidity you have as an arb, the more money you're going to make, right?
If you only got $100,000 of arboring dollars or you got a million dollars in arboring dollars,
you got more wiggle room in this sense.
And you could arb in increments of $1 million versus arboring in increments of $100,000. That's a big difference,
right? And so there's competition there in the free market for people to be as fast and efficient
as possible to execute these trades as fast as the liquidity will be, you know, provided by the
arbitrage bots. Yeah. And to take a step back, just for the general audience,
for those who may be not super familiar with ThorChain,
like from day one, ThorChain's design,
we have wanted to be the economic infrastructure of the world
that allows people to swap assets in a seamless, efficient process, right?
When we first started in 2021, you know, none of this stuff existed.
Streaming swaps, none of this stuff.
It was you had a swap and you traded against the depth of the pool and there was a slippage fee, right?
That's how it worked.
And you'd have to do lots of small swaps to avoid the slippage.
All that stuff has been completely fixed, right?
And so this is, I think, this is really going to be a turning point with just the efficacy, the efficiency of ThorChain.
It's such an exciting time.
I am very looking forward to Monday or Tuesday.
So fingers crossed.
Fingers crossed it works well and ARBs figure it out.
You know, I'm rooting for the ARBs.
I really am.
Despite me playfully saying, you know,
take a butter knife and kill each other.
I mean, you guys, you do a very important job.
Without you, ThorChain does not run correctly.
Right?
So I'm very excited.
Well, without all of the users, right?
Everyone plays off each other, right?
Sure, of course.
It's this nice, beautiful balance.
It's an ecology in a sense, right?
Yeah, yeah.
But it's like you mentioned the streaming swaps didn't exist before, Denny.
Like, when they came out, was it 2023, right?
The fall of 2023?
No, I think it was 2022.
2022, I think.
Fall of 2022.
And I think even, you correct me if i'm wrong jad but like i think
you guys because when you guys created streaming swaps you weren't sure like how they were going
to work and it ended up being huge we got the volume took off i was like holy smokes this is a
yeah yeah it was a bigger deal than we thought that was a huge deal that changed i remember some
of the devs at the time uh were saying that we that they weren't a fan of the streams rust because we would
never see a trade over $10,000 anyway right and here here we are with a 32
million dollar trade or multiple 30 million dollar trades just a month ago I
think it's safe to say that person was was not correct in there and in their
predictions that that was a huge change to get
that to work and to get the math to work i was too like i remember i was um where was i at the time
i think i was in some foreign country i was actually in somebody grabbing lunch at like
some sandwich shop and um it must have been it must have been in like i want to say
south america i feel like it was I can't remember exactly where it was.
And I was trying to think about the mathematics of how to get this thing to work.
Because we wanted to make sure that we could set a number of basis points, right?
Of like 10 basis points, whatever.
But basis points is very dynamic in the sense of it depends on where you're coming from and where you're going to.
The size of the pool is highly dependent on how much you pay in fees, right?
The direct relationship.
So how do you calculate it so that if you're going from Bitcoin to a stable coin or some
small cap to a large cap or any permutation of two pool sizes, how do you calculate the
size of the trade it has to be to go from the small pool to the big pool, the big pool to the small pool, or any permutation, and always pay the same BIP no matter what size of the trade versus the size of the pools?
That was actually a really kind of interesting mathematical question that took me about a week and a half to figure out how do I mathematically explain this in a way that gives me exact precision.
And that took quite a while to kind of reverse engineer that mathematics to figure that out.
But that was like a very fun, fun challenge for me, at least for me.
Do you think, going, sorry, bringing it back to AI, do you think you could use AI to help you with that today?
That's a good question.
Or you still need a human, you still need to sit there and think about it and figure it out. I don't know, to be honest. I've heard stories
about, I heard a story recently of a woman who was a great mathematician, very well-established,
you know, smart woman. And she had a paper that she had written, and there was some major component of her paper that she had published two years ago that was incorrect.
And the AI was saying, nope, I'm sorry, like this thing is wrong, right?
And she was like, no way, chat, you're wrong, chat, this is good, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she argued with it for some period of time and and thankfully this AI's tendency for
sycopancy didn't click in or something like this but like and she realized that
no actually right like I had to do a read I had to you know what's the right
word I had to repeal my thing what's the terminology for it but like I had to
retract retract my original thing and then and modify as soon as I learned
that my math was wrong in this paper
right so i don't know if it would or not and it's kind of hard to test it now because now the math
exists right so technically like like it's probably already been trained in the math that i had
invented for this particular thing that it was it's been in the code since 2022 and so if i were
to ask the question now and say hey chat, chat, like try to solve this problem,
and it does solve it, I'm not sure if it solved it because I just learned it from my code that I wrote years ago, or if it actually did it independently on its own, because it's probably
like what I wrote is a decent chance that it's actually in the model itself, I would think,
at least. All these things that we write on Reddit is part of that, you know. So I don't know. It could do it. And part of me is happy that it wasn't there because I enjoyed the challenge of it. And it was kind of a fun little mathematical experimentation and trial and error and figure out how do I exactly encapsulate this behavior mathematically. So I'm actually happy that it didn't exist at the time.
So it gave me the fun challenge, and I was able to figure it out in the end.
But it is pretty interesting to see how that's going to change in the future.
Because if it did exist at the time, like the chat GPT did exist at that time,
then I definitely would have used it because, I don't know, it's easier.
And I wouldn't have the satisfaction of solving the problem.
Oh, yeah, it's true.
You know, that reminds me of a lot of, so when chess engines came out, Stockfish and others, really advanced chess engines, very powerful.
They had these old models in chess and they were long established, like this is 100% a draw or this is losing for black in these many moves, right?
And then when they threw Stockfish's engines at him, it says, no's not and i remember one you know i'm not gonna remember what it was but
it was the exact opposite this is winning for black this is this is four checkmate and eight
you idiot like and that and because the computer is just so much more powerful less computationally
that they they could figure out this really just incredible sequence right um yeah so yeah i'm not surprised there's a great
example of that uh for like alpha go um go is like i don't like kind of a federal like game if you're
familiar with it it's a popular in asian countries but uh it's a very complicated game and the and
historically we've always believed that ai would never play this game because the number of
permutations that go can be played is astronomically large versus chess that's actually relatively small.
And so AlphaGo was playing the world's best Go player in the world,
and AlphaGo made a really bad move, at least that was the consensus,
and he made this really huge blunder, and the entire Go world that world that was watching the show like watching this performance was like oh
My god, that was the dumbest move ever like what the hell was alpha go thinking? Oh my god
This is the end like he just lost the game and they and the opponent who's actually like the greatest player in the world
He was just like he kind of looked at it like
He kind of had this like facial expression of, I don't know what to make of this.
This is shocking and surprising and nobody would ever make this move.
And it ended up being a brilliant move and the human player lost to AlphaGo in that case.
Because they're just thinking on a different scale than you and I are thinking when we
think about these kind of games. You never know what AI is thinking when it does what it doesn't.
Sometimes it looks like it's a really dumb or stupid move to your black comparison.
Sometimes it's like, actually, no, there's something more deeply happening underneath the
underneath the sheets here that you just aren't able to even acknowledge or see quite yet.
It's astounding.
And it's found out, you know, chess puzzles that were once like unsolvable. It finds answers to chess puzzles thatounding and it's found out you know chess puzzles that
were once like unsolvable it finds answers to chess puzzles that once it's just you're right
it's absolutely incredible it's it's so and it's so entertaining i mean it just shows you how
limited we are and how much powerful ai is um we're all cooked i remember you saying once
didn't you spend like six months working on a math problem
that was considered unsolvable?
And you just did it for like the fun of it.
And have you tried plugging that math problem?
I haven't, but...
You don't want to know if you can get the answer, right?
Maybe I should.
There was two that I was trying to solve.
One was around something called P equals NP.
I can go into detail if you're curious.
And then one was compressing data without using patterns.
And that's like every form of data compression
we use, whether it be zips or video compressions.
It's always just taking a pattern that's
in a bunch of different, like in an image, it's easier.
There's a big black area in your image. you can just represent that in a smaller amount of data
but like to compress data without having anything to come any pattern to compress on has been like
an open challenge for decades now about anybody who can figure out how to compress data without
using a pattern and um yeah and I have worked on that for months,
trying to figure out ways of achieving that goal.
Like knowing that nobody solved this problem,
and honestly, nobody probably will solve this problem,
because I think it is probably impossible.
And the way that you know it's impossible is that if it was
true, that means you could compress any data.
And then once it's compressed, you could compress it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
And the idea that you can put the entire internet onto a floppy disk, a 1988 floppy disk, would be theoretically possible if somebody actually did solve this.
But obviously that sounds ridiculous that you could store the entire internet on a 1.44 megabyte floppy disk from like
1987 or something like that. But that's the reason why you kind of know this
not going to work. But it's still like a fun problem like how could you achieve
this? It just kind of teases your brain in a way that you just get to kind of
run down different roads and then you'll naturally just learn why the idea
you had doesn't work which in itself is a fun experience of like,
oh, that's why this whole thing doesn't work,
because of this, this, that, and the other thing.
Now I know more.
Let's try it again.
Sounds good.
We have an answer question here.
I guess right now we're in the middle of a churn,
and we have a vault that is stuck.
How do we fix that problem? I don't know if you're aware of that, Chad, but go ahead.
Yeah, we get these from time to time. And to be honest, I don't even really know what the cause
is because it's just so minute. I think it's probably just some sort of gas thing relating
like of some minor detail. Every once in a long long while what happens is the wallet has you know
let's call it like 10 tokens and we think the wallet has 11 tokens right like there are and
so we try to churn and move 11 tokens from a wallet that only has 10 and lo and behold the
broadcast transaction fails because we don't have enough money. I'm using 10 to 11. That's not accurate.
But the reality is it's like today it's Litecoin and it's like 0.00029700.
That's how many tokens we're talking about.
So it's like you're talking about three cents, three pennies worth of Litecoin token
that we think there's slightly more than there actually is.
And so you fix that just by like, you just donate some three cents worth of Litecoin into the pool and then, you know, into the vault more accurately and it fixes.
But the, I've always gotten like a little bit of annoyed by these things.
It's just like a little bit of annoyance that comes up every once in a long while.
And so I actually have a PR that I opened up.
I think it's called 4628.
The network will start to record from the solvency checker
the state of the wallets.
So now the network's going to know, a story in its KV store at least,
the state of the wallets, like now the network's going to know, a story in its KV store at least, the state of the wallets,
like how much the wallet says we have
for all of our vaults of all these coins
or all these tokens or whatever.
And then we can compare like what the vault thinks
and what the wallet says
and then compare those two things.
And if they're like, you know,
out of bounds by like, you know, $10,
something minusculely small that doesn't really matter,
then just go ahead and fix the vault.
Just take it down from 11 coins to 10 coins and then unblock ourselves.
So hopefully with this change, hopefully it gets merged into 3.17 in the next release,
we should probably never see one of these stuck churns ever again in theory,
and we can just have more reliable churns in that particular sense.
In general, I think one of the things I want to do as I'm taking a stronger leadership role
within the team is that I want to be better about how we maintain mainnet and track issues
that we see, whether it be a stuck trade or a churn that got stuck or vaults or, you know, Gaia right now is behind the tip right now because 25 notes haven't updated to version 27 of Gaia.
Just like track these things more accurately and then do what I call the five whys.
It's not I call it.
It's a real thing called the five whys.
If you don't know what that is, there's a Wikipedia page on it.
I think it was started by Honda in like the 80s.
It's this really interesting idea of how you deal with problems, you know, and that is whenever you have an issue,
like in our case, it's like a stuck churn, you ask the question why five times in a row,
and then you figure it out with the root, root, root, root, root cause of the whole problem is,
and then you can fix that and then you you
cascadely fix a bunch more issues that you didn't even know that you were even dealing with at that
particular time or could happen at the particular time so i want to start doing those kind of five
whys as a part of all of our mainnet related problems or issues or things that kind of come up
so we do better root cause analysis and we patch things more effectively
rather than like on the surface layer going five layers there you go you found it five layers why
you go five layers kind of down so we have a more uh better way of approaching problems that we see
on magnet to be to solve them in a more permanent or more substantial way if you want to call it
that yeah here's a good example we got a follow-up question
why why are we out by three cents or three dollars or whatever you know if everything is on the
blockchain everything's exact and perfect how do we how do we end up with these minute discrepancies
right that's a good question i to be honest i don't know i think the reason why is some sort
of like um gas is used a little bit differently or like off by like a few like a couple sats you know in a literal sense i actually don't know the reason
why this is i've looked into the past it's kind of it's a really like deep-seated issue that's
really really complicated that's hard to find and because the problem is so small like three cents
you know don't think it's really like really worth my time or energy to dive really too deep
into it which is why it's easier just to solve it kind of like all right if it's we're off by three
cents who cares we'll just you know satisfy it move on but i my belief is my my first thought
at least although like maybe i should ask like hugan to do it yeah maybe i should just get hugan
on it so i was thinking the whole time. Yeah.
Hugin, why did this happen, Hugin?
Why did this happen, Hugin?
Get off your lazy ass, you zero to one prick.
You know, I think it's because of how gas is consumed
and how sometimes there can be a little bit discrepancy
between what one node experiences versus another. That might be it.'t know for sure to be honest with you and i've just never
prioritized it to look into the depths of it and neither has any other devs because we still deal
with this issue five six years later but maybe i'll just throw it on like a into a prompt uh for
hugan to to kind of like churn on an overnight and experiment and maybe hugan will find like the
root cause of it but that's
like a great like that goes back to the five why i was just talking about like we have a churn like
we should go to the five wise to like well where did that 0.000 to you know litecoin tokens go
and it's always we're always short right the pool is always short a little bit versus... It could probably happen the other way around as well, maybe. We're also over-solvent by some
amount, but whenever we're over-solvent, we don't really have an issue because we're over-solvent.
So when we're over-solvent, the vault will still churn, but then does that mean that little bit
that we're over? Does that get left behind? Or... So then, wait a minute.
So what about this $3 million
of crypto
in the pools that's been collected over time?
That's a different thing.
So that's like observing
the inbound of a transaction
and then adding that, you know,
what's it called, like half a Bitcoin into the vault.
Like, we now know that it's there
and next time we churn, we turn we'll turn it but if something happens on the layer one of litecoin that we
that doesn't get observed like maybe the gas is a little like off by a couple sats or something
like this right i mean that shouldn't be the case because we're we're observing the amount of gas as
gas as well but there must be something weird happening on the layer one that i'm just not
well but there must be something weird happening on the layer one that i'm just not quite aware of
quite aware of that we do if we don't inform thor chain of that you know whatever that over surplus
then yes it gets lost behind left behind and if you go through every vault thor chains ever had
all the addresses we've ever had you might find some kind of like a little bit of dust here a
little bit of dust there i mean you're probably not going to find like a hundred thousand dollars unless there was like if you go maybe you could go far
like for far enough back into like 2021 days like that's possible because we had it's early and we're
still working on issues and whatever um and a hundred thousand dollars is a lot more money now
than it was back then or back then it was, you know, five hundred dollars or whatever the number is
but I Don't know if for certain but if we're over solving we're off by three cents in the positive
We would just go ahead and keep churning it wouldn't be an issue
Okay, so it's more reason for you to kind of try and
Well, I guess it's a small dollar amount doesn't matter, but if you sit in this PR
Let's say it's over $10,
then what happens?
Then there's a notification?
Yeah, the network doesn't churn, basically.
It doesn't correct the vault, and the network doesn't churn
like it is now.
And then humans have to come in and evaluate.
But I don't think I've ever seen it larger than $1.20.
I think it's the largest I can recall in history from off my memory like it's yeah it's very small yeah it's never it's never largest
it's usually it's only like nine cents or ten cents something incredibly small which is why like
i don't really it never got prioritized like a top test to fix but for me at this point
um i want to be as efficient as possible because I'm adding new staff.
I hired two new devs, for example, and I don't want to get distracted anymore by mainnet issues or as little as possible.
And so I'm changing my worldview on this in the sense of like it's not so much the three cents that's the problem.
It's the distraction of my time that's the problem, you know, of trying to solve this three cent issue that we have today.
And I'd rather just get it solved so that every time this happens, it just saves me five minutes or ten minutes of my time to actually go back and solve it.
It should churn now. To my knowledge, it's got the no, to, to donate the LTC coins. So if it hasn't already turned now,
it should do it.
But like,
I'm just reprioritizing my time.
Cause I'm so much stricter on my time because I'm,
I'm getting more into biz dev.
I'm getting more into product management.
I'm getting into like,
just my time's getting even more stretched at this point,
to be honest with you.
It's I'm trying to not,
fill it with bullshit
like three cents problems or whatever.
But it's also the same thing with stuck churns.
We added new logic to the code
where if a churn can't be,
sorry, a swap happens,
but for whatever reason,
we can't send the outbound.
We've seen that with Tron, I think it was,
or Avax, I can't remember which one,
I think it was Tron,
where there was something that the deposits were like turned off for that wallet somehow or some way or something like this.
And we just couldn't send it money for some fucking weird reason.
So we now have logic that like, well, we can't complete the swap.
So now we're going to do a reverse swap.
Take the Tron we were going to send you, put it back through the system,
and swap back to the original Bitcoin you gave us,
and then send the Bitcoin back to your layer one Bitcoin address.
So that would have been another incident in some sense,
and we're required a bunch of engineers to come together,
evaluate it, look at what happened,
look at the amounts, do a store migration,
get the Treasury involved.
The Treasury's got to send back the Bitcoin that they sent in the system. what happened look at the amounts do a store migration get the treasury involved the treasury
has got to send back the bitcoin that they sent in the system and it just creates this like a big
giant headache that would take four five six weeks to settle on and it's a huge drain of our resources
and so like i'm i guess i'm just changing my kind of worldview on managing this project and saying
like i care less i mean i still care about the money that's being you know transferred over course but I also want to just like make this
network iron motherfucking clad so that it doesn't doesn't disrupt my day and I can't from actually
producing code or you know helping to you know on the biz dev side to get new partners or
relationships I'm now talking to a few different conferences and
doing some talks at bitcoin conference at the consensus conference as well like i'm spending
a lot more of my time doing a lot more things outside of development at this point so i really
want to stay focused on those things i don't want stupid three cent issues to be you know
bothering and distracting me from my stuff you have to say you're right if i can add to it
um it does matter for like the the user's point of view even say like a bond provider
because they just like you know what's going on and they see all these stock vaults and stock
churn and they just think this is you know these guys can't get their act together this protocol
doesn't work you know and it's just like they just see that as a problem and they're not willing to
go into the depth to understand it like you do that it's just you know it's just like, they just see that as a problem, and they're not willing to go into the depth to understand it like you do, that it's just, you know, it's three cents.
We got to just, somebody's got to move around.
You know, so it's, those things add up.
They're additive as well.
All those little things that take away your time, those are all things that turn people off of ThorChain and turn and push them away.
So I think it's great you know yeah
you're gonna fix those things yeah yeah we're any this is why the five wise
comes up right make sure we get to the root of things and solve things as best
as best as we can and so we have less incidents or less you know
bugginess or less you know stuck whatever things you know or
even like the thing today about Gaia like Gaia got behind you know what I mean
there was a new version of Gaia maybe we didn't get the patch up late enough
maybe the nodes that weren't quick and picking it up enough whatever that is
well you know we'll probably do a five five wise around that as well to make
sure that we don't the next time there's a guy or other chain we don't have you
know a quarter of the nodes you know no not observing that chain or whatever like all this
stuff needs to be done in a much more arduous and intense way so that we have a we pay a lot of
money up front to solve these problems like it's like you know maybe too much time in some sense
you could argue but over the long term it just like really smooths things out so that we can stay focused on on the roadmap rather than than on you know little tiny little woes here
and there yeah yeah um i'm a big believer in you know little things matter right like um yeah it's
broken window theory right correct what what is it broken window theory broken window uh yeah uh uh denny put up put up on your screen here
broken window theory is the idea that like that is the idea that like if you stop things like if
the that the evils that happen in life are progressions and it doesn't it doesn't end
it ends with your house being burnt down but it starts with like a little broken or crack window. And if you fix things early on, you don't get to a place where it goes all the way.
This is my kind of thing.
I think like it was big in New York policing that they would like take seriously very small things
because people who break the law on very small things like graffiti you know are more likely to become you know uh like you know grand larceny or something much
more significant and so if you kind of clamp down on that graffiti stuff then you kind of naturally
cramp down on the you know that's the that's the theory at least you know behind it i i love it
that makes sense or or and even a deterrent right that person might not
go from graffiti to something worse but the worst criminal might see well if they're cracking down
on graffiti they're definitely going to crack down on me yes yeah so yeah we apply this logic
to the board meetings as well because i'm a board member for a school district and i go there and
if the football field looks terrible if things are un unkept, if things are dirty, why should the kids have pride in their school?
We have set a standard that is low.
Exactly.
And they will rise to that standard, which is shitty.
So I don't want this to look good.
Everyone has to look clean, proper.
You set the standard, and that's what matters.
Couldn't agree more.
Absolutely.
The problem with the idea, though, in general is that it requires a lot more resources, right?
If you're going to like now, now fix everything and not just like the big things, then obviously it requires a lot more time and resources to do that.
And the theory is if you do that now, you won't have big things later.
You know, at least that's my interpretation of it.
Yeah. Well, it's like, um,
it's kind of like me, me dealing with the front end and the new website is like,
I want to get it all dialed in first before we start driving traffic to it, because we kind of have like that one shot, right. To, to, to capture people.
So if we start driving all this traffic to the interface and website now,
it doesn't really work as well. The new website, the old website, like we might lose them.
And so it's these little things that just like they're additive.
And if you get them done up front, it just has like compounding benefits down the road.
Yeah, I recall in ThorChain history, I remember like back in 2020 or I think it was 2020.
It was like super early.
We had some sort of like big problem on the network. I don or I think it was 2020, it was super early. We had some sort of big problem on the network.
I don't really recall what it was.
But I remember after I did a deep dive and to figure out what it was,
it was actually five different bugs.
But each bug was a non-bug.
I mean, it was a bug, but it was so insignificant
that if you had pointed out to me at that point before,
I'd be like, oh, it's a bug, but who cares?
It really doesn't mean
anything. But when these five bugs like combined together, and like, it's almost like a frigging
Captain Planet scenario, you know what I mean? Like, individually, it was kind of useless and
not that big of a deal. But when the bugs combined together, here comes Captain Planet,
and there was actually a significant problem. And I was like, oh my god, that's actually pretty
fascinating how those things is kind of aligned in that way and was actually a significant problem. And I was like, oh my god, that's actually pretty fascinating how those things just kind of aligned
in that way and actually create a significant
problem that some of their parts
probably were not that big of a deal, but
they come together, they become like a
multiplicative issue rather than
a sum, right? In some way
or shape or form. It's like an inverse Captain Planet.
It's funny as hell. It's like the inverse Captain Planet.
It's like five degenerates going,
oh! And then just like Captain Piece of that's like five degenerates and then just like
captain piece of shit just like emerges i'm here to fuck everything up
oh man that's awesome oh my god that. That was an interesting learning opportunity for me in that case.
In my mind, it's the same thing with all the features.
So like streaming swaps, limit orders, rapid swaps, and all these little things, you know, just keep inching along.
By themselves might seem small, but together could be pretty huge, right?
Make a big difference.
Yeah, they draw a much better picture, right?
Yeah.
Well, guys, I do have a request from the audience.
People do want to talk about ADR23.
And for those who don't know, ADR23 is ADR Boon submitted.
It is about burning 87% of the reserve
and about 9 million or so tokens will be left in reserve. It is about burning 87% of the reserve and about 9 million or so tokens
will be left in reserve. It is currently
doing pretty good.
We're approaching consensus, but someone
wanted me to... 51% lots of looked.
Yeah. Oh, really? Oh, nice.
Pretty good. Pretty quick.
I try to
stay impartial as possible, guys. If you're
bond providers, please reach out to your nodes
and vote for or against so we can be responsive adr so you have
questions or concerns or anything like that um get the dialogue going but um yeah pretty good
i have not really seen any pushback um and i'm not trying to say that just from rune chart had
some good questions okay um i don't think it was pushback i think it just he just wanted some more
insight clarity on stuff um yeah was he worried about the balance of the reserve or something uh i forget the exact
he had he had a list of questions in the in the chat on the discord the adr chat and it's basically
just needed some more info to communicate with bps which wants some better understanding i don't
think it was which is good necessarily oh yeah absolutely yeah i don't know his criticisms per se it was like i was actually kind of worried because i'm
like man this like there's no real chat going on you know chatterbox so i'm glad runetard spoke up
and have some good questions um i always feel better when there's like a lot of discussion
and especially if people are disagreeing and then then we kind of come to a consensus like
i feel like it's a more solid consensus than four people saying four things and then it goes in votes
like i right my mind is just better when there's a little bit more uh a bit more back and forth but
um uh yeah we actually have a another code change that has been in the code for a while, but I put it on kind of pause of enabling it because of this ADR, because I we put it down to like 9 million in the reserve,
whatever the number is,
we would put the max reserve at 9 million.
And so when the reserve makes more money
than the 9 million that's there,
it's at 9 million whatever,
then that gets secreted into the system income.
Because there's a handful of mechanisms
the reserve makes a little
bit of money but it's not like a huge amount and i just wanted to make sure that instead of that
being burning that rune which affected what's happening when you put in the reserve now
it just goes into the system income and increases our system income and it wasn't a lot of money i
think i think last time i looked it was approximately like a five percent increase
in the system income so it's not like gonna to make everybody a millionaire but just like a nice little kind of like you know uh quality of uh
quality of life kind of change to just slightly increase that that system income of the network
so when does that go live chad well it's already in the code now it just requires
a a node vote or even operational operational mirror because we can flip it on right now if
you wanted to well we should because this was this this was part of the marketing fund ADR, right,
to get to do that.
Oh, was it really?
I didn't realize it was part of that.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, that was kind of conditional that we would do this.
That was how we helped, or how I helped sell it,
is that we can, by turning that on, in effect effect bond providers known operators aren't at a loss
you know we're taking the five percent from the from that extra income to the reserve so
we need to get on that then uh we can do it now theoretically i just was i was a little bit
hesitant to do so because i didn't want to like set it at like 76 million or whatever the hell
number of ruin would be oh you have oh i see Oh, you have to. Oh, I see.
And then you had to like burn all the rune down to like 9 million because ADR got approved.
And then you have to like.
Okay.
You could do it.
It's not like you couldn't do it.
I just didn't want to get like touch it too many times or something like this.
I don't know.
So where we're at today, we should get ADR 23.
Get that.
Yeah.
Get it approved or rejected in either direction, whatever direction,
let's let that vote. And if it gets approved and in 317,
I'll get a code change to burn the reserve. Okay.
And then once 317 comes out, we can go ahead and enable that. Yeah. Okay,
cool. Somebody asked earlier in the chat,
what happens to the treasury if it runs out of money?
Yeah. I'm wondering if you guys have thought about that any ideas well the treasury is pretty pretty uh healthy this time i
mean last i was told it was like eight million or nine million something like this in total
or something like this um um and that's like that's enough space to run for for years that said you know it's it is a limited
amount of money and you know it won't last forever I think in theory unless the room goes to bananas
or something like this or whatever but if the Treasury runs runs out of money that that is
obviously a significant problem because the treasure is how we pay for most devs, right?
Like my salary comes out of the treasury, for example, right?
And other devs too.
Some other, some devs like Nine Realms employees like, like URSA, for example, or like familiar
cow or something like that would come out of the, the, the, the, the Nine Realms dev,
which is really where the dev fund is, right?
The dev fund goes to nine
realms currently and that's used and that's you know produces like fifty thousand sixty thousand
dollars uh a month seventy thousand dollars it's not like a huge amount of money uh in this current
market you know but enough to pay for you know ursa's salary and and cow and whatever and that
kind of thing but uh at some point in time, like, things might change, right?
And the Treasury pays for a lot of things.
Not just devs, but we also pay for, you know, biz dev.
We also pay for dashboards and contracts with security agents.
And, you know, maybe I'm going to start doing conferences, right,
and pay for, you know, maybe like pay for my flight, for example,
to go to a conference and that kind of stuff, right?
And so I don't know how much we spend
out of the treasury debt right now.
I think it's, off the top of my head, I don't know.
It's considerably more than the dev fund currently supplies.
But if the dev fund were to go to zero tomorrow,
then we'd have a significant problem.
It wouldn't be able to pay the people
who keep everything on.
So hypothetically, let's just say
that it happens. Say that the treasury got hacked tomorrow and all the funds are lost. Let's just
say that's what happens. Well, then we would need to refund that treasury in one form or another.
Now, there's two ways of going at it. One is we could try to strike a deal with some investors.
We can go to your Delphi Digitals or something like this and ask for some kind of investment. That might be a hard thing to do given the times, given, you know, authorify, given the
bearish market that we're in currently. You know, that might be hard to kind of to build that kind
of investment. The second opportunity would be going to the community and saying, hey,
we want to fund the treasury. Here's how we can do that. Now, that can be done through a token mint.
Like, we could, you know, vote and mint X number of tokens
and give it to the Treasury, and the Treasury will use that money
to pay for the things it needs to pay to keep the ecology alive,
the ecosystem alive.
We could do it through, you know, increasing the dev fund
from the 5% that it is now to 10%, 15%, 20%, 30%, 100%, I don't know,
not 100%, but like whatever number would be needed in order to keep things alive and keep all the
funding there. So that would be something we'd have to discuss as a community to keep that alive
in one form or another. Or we could just say the treasury is done. Fuck the treasury. It's had a
good run, but now it's over. And now we're going to fund the project directly from the protocol itself,
and the treasury is no longer going to exist.
And whenever we want to pay a salary or pay this,
or we were talking about token terminal earlier in the conversation,
like we get to go to the community and do an ADR,
and hey, we want to pay the token terminal $100,000 a year to blah, blah, blah, blah,
and the community would have to vote on that and so forth and so on.
That gets very, like, kind of micromanaging at that point, which might be, you know,
not the best way to go at it.
You could argue that's the best way to go at it.
You could argue that's not the best way to go at it, but that's something the community
would have to, like, figure out.
But we would have to have an ADR at that point to talk to the community and say, how do you
want to move forward?
Here's option A. Here's option B. Here's option C.
Quite similar to the whole TCY thing.
We had five or six different options of how we wanted to go at coming back from the Thorify stuff.
And the community voted.
We voted for TCY.
And we implemented it.
And it's working.
And it's doing what it's supposed to be doing.
And it's paying back people with their owed and all that kind of stuff.
It's a similar situation.
We'd have to figure it out as a community.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm open to the idea of just minting the tokens.
I mean, it'd be, in my mind, a necessary evil.
And like I said, you get several million now i like to think it's you know room price will recover
and uh hopefully you guys are wise enough to you know raise some cash right you know yeah we're
we're doing this like we can to like to uh like one one of my goals right now is to also like cut
down on spending where we can right it is it's not a great time in the market you know running nodes
is not as profitable as it was a couple years ago whatever and you have to you know like a responsible business you have
to be you know reactive to the to the market conditions of the situation and you have to
cut where you can cut and don't cut where you can't cut and and be as fiscally responsible as you can
about you know how you operate as a as a as a treasury or a project or a company yeah yeah
yeah i like to think it's that's tomorrow's problem i don't think yeah no like i said like
we got the treasury is healthy but we got yeah we got i don't want to say money to burn that's not
the case but like we got plenty of time and plenty of runway and if like you know maybe in 2026 or 20
27 the market goes up you know we're back to
all-time highs you know whatever like that's a totally like plausible thing to happen it's
possible thing to happen and in that case the treasury is no longer like you know eight million
dollars it's now 50 million or whatever the hell the number is going to be right and at that point
we can sell a bunch of rune or bitcoin or whatever into stables and, you know, fund the bear markets,
you know, in that scenario. And, you know, but then again, the treasury is like, it's not really
owned by the community. Like the POL is owned by the community and the reserve is owned by the
community. That's why we do votes and ADRs and code changes around these things. But the treasury
is not done by that. The treasury was a private fund. That was a bunch of private investors invested money early on
into ThorChain's history
to provide initial funds
to pay my salary in those 2019 days
and other things we needed to pay money for,
AWS costs and whatever else.
So the treasury itself
is not really owned by the protocol
or the community.
It's owned by private investors.
Yeah. And a little history walk back guys i gotta say you know and i i'm not just you know kissing ass here like the
treasury in my opinion has done an excellent job with the funds if uh back in 2021 you know we did
have those early exploits when mainnet or chaos and i should say went live treasury no one lost
a single penny from those
days and if there is something on the protocol side that goes wrong the treasury uh it's just
just chronically been a great um steward of the money and and i mean you are a good store because
the money's still there right i mean it's the initial investment into the treasury i think
from from my memory and this is a long time ago but it was like 1.5 million dollars initially which is like all money in crypto land right like like eos had like something
like six billion dollars investment or something like absolutely ludicrous numbers of monies
and like but we always just had like my jp myself has had the mentality that like we don't need a
billion dollars here what we need is like dedicated smart a small group of smart people who are like laser focused in delivering you know this
idea we had about cross-chain swaps and all this and we did so much with so little as a as a as a
project right we didn't hire hundreds of people like eos did or NIR for that matter or any of these other
guys we had and we've never had more than like full-time on-hand staff never
been more than like six people at the height or eight I mean it's tiny right
we're able to achieve so much with such was so little you know and also that
comes with some negatives of like we don't have as much money for token terminals of the world or something like this or or spending money on
booths at at uh conferences that cost you know probably a strong astronomical amounts of money
more money than probably worth to be honest with you but like but we but we get done we ship what
we need to ship we we you know deliver what we need to deliver with such such little money so the fact that we started with 1.5 million and today you know six years later
it's six million dollars eight million dollars or hell the number is i think that i think that's
that's meaningful you know of something that is very meaningful you know this is a great pivot
point i think um because kenton i'm going to bring something up on your end but you know i say this
all the time whether it's a live stream or i'm talking to people in DMs, on Telegram or X or Discord, whatever.
I say ThorChain's most powerful component is the people behind it.
It is.
We have an amazing community, a bunch of dedicated, just rugged, tough individuals who are passionate or who are determined to accomplish this goal of just a free and fair world.
So this is my pivot point, Kenton.
You know, BTC vegas is coming up and uh we are organizing something and then you've got a little app called
partiful i reminded you buddy i got you do you want me to put on up on share screen right now
i can do that yeah go for it yeah all right figured out. It was the first option in ChatGPT.
So here we go, guys.
Go ahead, Ken.
They actually had the lightning thing.
It was actually kind of neat.
They had some effects I could add.
But this is a free site that I got to, we can get RSVPs for a meetup in Vegas.
And I picked Sunday because I figured that's probably when people have the
least things going on.
I imagine once you start going to the conference or, you know,
getting busy doing stuff, maybe you're busy Tuesday or Monday,
Tuesday evening.
So I figured Sunday would probably be the most people that have the most
free time.
But basically if you guys can, if you're going to the conference,
you're going to Vegas and you want to meet up, please RSVP,
because then I can go find a restaurant, a bar, whatever.
And until I have a headcount, I have no idea the size of space that I should look for.
There's going to be 10 of us, there's going to be 100.
So obviously you can imagine that's going to drastically change where we go.
So if you want to meet up in Vegas,
just casual, you know,
let's get to know each other,
you know, meet in person.
And you can bring a friend,
bring two friends, bring five friends.
Like, you know,
we want to introduce people to ThorChain as well.
So everyone's welcome.
Everyone's invited.
It's just,
this would be like a quasi
side event you know I'm not putting in too much effort into this so yeah if you
guys go into Vegas you want to want to meet up please please RSVP I was just
I was just talking to two days ago I had a meeting with one of the guys at
Bitcoin magazine who puts on this whole conference, Bitcoin conference, and we were talking about me doing a talk.
Actually, I was actually suggesting I had to talk about Hugin because it's such an interesting thing about AI development with the crypto, blah, blah, blah.
And I don't know if it's going to happen yet. I'm late in the game talking to him. We're only like 45 days out or less than that or whatever it is.
So I'm not sure if I'll get a speaking spot or not.
But if I do, I'll definitely be there in Vegas.
And if I'm in Vegas, I'm definitely coming to this event.
Awesome.
I love it.
Patriot, Denny, do you have the link to that?
Yes.
I will post.
Yes, sir. I'll do it right now and guys like i am you know i met chad the
first time in real life i think it was 2022 yeah it was eat denver okay because you see this guy
online i'm watching his stuff i'm like this guy's pretty cool he's speaking some some some he's
saying some words i'm enjoying and i gotta meet these guys i gotta meet the team i gotta meet
them because you never know if things are legit, right? I'm telling you guys the most
important thing you can do is to actually come meet the people that you interact online. It's
so powerful when you form that human connection. It's just you get a sense for what the person's
actually like. Like there's a distance between myself and you watching this or you know because
like it's just a recording it's just a
bunch of you know it's just electricity it ain't when you touch someone you talk to them you laugh
with them you share a drink with them it creates a bond that you cannot mimic i guys and if you've
never been to a crypto conference before if you've never hang out i'm telling you there's nothing
like it you are the conversations you have in real life you cannot have anywhere else because the
people that you interact with in tragically world they just simply don't understand they don't have the knowledge
but again what kenton said please come and if you come bring a friend with you because we want to
create new thor chats we want to increase our community there is nothing more powerful you do
so that's my plea to you guys if you think you can make it make it let's go and and just you know
guys like the only reason i'm not putting more effort into like making a proper side event just one is my own time i just don't have time and then then two is
budget right so like i'll find a place where we can you know pay for drinks and some appetizers
but um you know to do a full-blown side event you know like like the other projects do uh i just
have the bandwidth for it right now yeah and um so you know eventually we're gonna get to
that point guys so this is just kind of like it's gonna be a kenton's park kenton's hotel room
everybody in this penthouse yeah let's go to the bellagio we're at the bellagio everybody
with kenton's penthouse and denny will touch you yeah yeah thanks. Come get touched by Denny.
Yeah.
Serving ticket number 35.
Oh, buddy.
Well, you know, we could get a Thor chain, you know, let's say we do really well.
We'll get the Thor chain party boat, Thor chain party yacht, and then we'll all go sail into the Canary Islands, and then we go hang out with Kenton.
Depending where we go, they do do stuff like that, right?
Like maybe in Miami, you know,
we might be able to do something like that.
Like in Cayman, whenever they do conferences,
they'll do party boats or a thing in Cayman and they'll get a catamaran and go out.
So yeah, like, dude, I haven't forgot
about your chocolate fountain.
So we'll definitely get one of those one day. I'm telling you. So, yeah. Dude, I forgot about your chocolate fountain. Yes.
We'll definitely get one of those one day.
I'm telling you.
Eventually, guys, we'll get there.
We'll get there.
You know what we got to do?
We got to take a donation box or whatever.
People can just donate whatever money they want.
And then we just put it all on black or something.
Do you know what I mean?
It would be a fun group, just high stakes.
We just gather something ridiculous amount of money and we're just like, we're going to put it on black.
Fuck it.
You got to do it Vegas style.
Somebody had some reservations about giving their phone number to the website.
So maybe we can make an alternative.
Maybe we can get a side.
I said no personal information.
So it should be able to...
It required me to send his phone number.
Oh, did it?
Yeah.
Ah, shoot.
Okay, sorry, guys.
Okay, F.
I'll come up with a different one.
I'll go find something um unless unless you
want to unless somebody knows you guys in the audience anybody knows a site that i don't need
chad did you send me one um i think what i said was yeah yeah it was part of it okay
um sorry guys i clicked off asking for personal info. So I guess they still, yeah.
Maybe it's something that you can look at it and toggle or something. I don't know. Or make,
remake it. Maybe there was a mistake made. After we're done, I'll take a look,
see if I can change it. Um, yeah. Maybe that's why it's free, right? They're harvesting,
we gotta harvest our info somehow, right? Like we're the product, right? Because it's free.
like yeah we're the product right because it's free so um yeah i'll take another look right um
cool yeah we'll get it figured out we'll get it figured out we got some time but yeah guys
all seriousness go if you can go please go i'm telling you it's so cool um i do have something
uh real quick i don't know i know we talked on we were kind of it's hard i really wish someone
would come may do a little pushback but
you know, the next
it's not an official ADR yet but you know
POL ad, perhaps
called ADR24, you know
we talked about, you know
it's a hard sell for nodes
in order to add another
fee, maybe if you take the burn
and split it or just switch the burn entirely
to the POL fee maybe if you take the burn and split it or just switch the burn entirely to um the pol um
you know and i think all three of us agreed it's just we just all three of us think it's better
there's a lot of people in the community i want to make sure i represent them that say they just
love that burn and they want to keep that burn well i i will speak for them because i i get it
like i know a lot of people like it and i've had people tell me like you know six figure
rune holders uh tell me that the only reason they haven't sold is because of the burn
like they they believe in it they're attracted to it so like and that's probably one of the biggest
people get defensive about is getting rid of the burn and i mean that's just what we hear
it's that saying you know you hear one complaint then there's 10 other people that have the same complaint. You know,
we hear one person wanting to keep the burn. There's 10 other people that want to keep it too.
So, um, I get it, you know, people want to keep it. And like, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm happy
to keep it. Um, so everyone always freaks out when we start talking about it. You know, it doesn't make sense or it should go or whatever.
But I do like the POL idea.
Like, the more I'm thinking about it, like, you know, and you said this, I think, a few podcasts ago, Chad, about how, you know, the protocol is just on all the liquidity.
And we don't have to worry about trying to attract outside liquidity.
And, like, and then it's sticky. it's there forever, it never goes away.
And that's door chain's biggest, you know, one of our biggest advantages right now is we have real revenue.
And so that's kind of, that just helps build us a moat that we have this liquidity doesn't go away.
doesn't go away. But I keep coming back to, if we all agree the POL or the idea is good,
just where did we get the money from? I still come back to rearranging the existing POL
and taking some money out of the existing pools and seeding these new pools.
and um there's and i has a pushback you know people lps are worried about withdrawing
liquidity from a pool uh locking in some of their losses but doesn't really lock it in it just it
just changes the ratio which they need to break even right and it just pushes it a bit higher
and i don't know the math um i'm guessing here totally 100 guessing but like you know if we take
five percent out of these pools to go seed all these new pools is it really gonna affect
the lps that much like is it gonna you know maybe now they need room to go to five bucks to break
even maybe they have to go to 525 to break even like is it really that big of a difference meanwhile we can see like 50 new pools and try and kickstart things going and try and get some more
you know grill with door chain get the room price up sooner that could be worth it right to have
you know to have that have some some liquidity withdrawn.
And then that way, because right now with POL, that's part of the argument or debate is
like, well, what percentage of revenue?
And it's like, okay, if we do 2% or 5%, it's going to take a couple of years just to get
to a couple of million dollars.
Whereas we can get to a couple of million dollars by just uh moving some of the existing pol around and then we can add to that with with you know
two percent or five percent of revenue and start adding into those pools um so i guess from going
with this in my mind if we all agree pol is a good idea we should do it as soon as possible
why wait two years?
Let me give you the bearish case for the POL, right, just to offer a different side of the equation.
When we first launched ThorChain, we wanted to have really deep pools.
And the reason why that's so important is because the deeper the pool, the larger the trade you can take basically without paying exorbitant amounts
of fees, right? And so we wanted to have really deep pools. That's partially why we had the whole
like, you know, ruining all the pools. That's part of the equation. Then we came up with this
idea of streaming swaps where you can have a really big trade but not pay exorbitant amounts
of fees, which is what the size of the pool was supposed to do initially, but now we just trade the depth of the pool with time, right?
So the trade takes longer being executed in a single block,
and now executes in 10 blocks or 20 blocks or whatever quantity of blocks it is
to achieve the same outcome, right?
Now, taking a step further with rapid swaps, you kind of remove the time element,
and you're going back towards a single block, sort of.
Not literally, but possibly, and for some cases that might be the case.
But you're getting closer back to that, like, you're still taking the advantage of that streaming swap
and giving you that really good price, really great price execution,
but now you're getting the time to go back back towards one block again right and it doesn't really matter i mean it does
matter somewhat but it doesn't really matter if the pool is super deep or the pool of shadow i
mean there's there is a difference between those two things i'm not saying that they're one the
same but it's not as big of a difference as it was on thort chain day one when we didn't have
streaming swaps and we didn't have streaming swaps and we
didn't have rapid swaps and we relied solely on the size of the pool to make large trades possible,
which is why we always wanted to have deeper and deeper and deeper pools. So I mean, there's not a
downside to having deeper pools. It's only upside. So you're never going to hear me argue we should
have smaller pools. But my argument is, though, it's like by growing the POL how much value does the does the community actually get or
the swapper actually get of increasing the POL it sounds like there's more
liquidity but the problem is not the problem but the other side is that like
liquidity is not no longer just the pool liquidity with rapid swaps is now the
arbors as well arbors are providing the liquidity in effect swaps is now the arbors as well. Arbors are providing liquidity in effect, which is very similar to what
conceptually somewhat similar at least
to what concentrated liquidity was in some ways. By focusing
your liquidity in a narrower kind of scope
you are in effect kind of arbing a little bit the price of the pool
sort of speak. It's not exactly one to one but in effect kind of arbing a little bit the price of the pool, sort of speak, right?
Not exactly one-to-one, but in the vicinity of.
So you can make a rational argument that increasing the size of the PUL,
it does not necessarily mean, you know, that it's necessarily like better,
at least not in the way that it used to.
And does that mean we can have $10 pools and everything's fine?
Of fucking course not. That's not what I'm saying, right?
But going from a $50 million pool to a $80 million pool, how much of a change that really? Now, the streaming swap
itself will get larger on that case. So the size of the sub swap will be larger, meaning that instead
of doing it in 10 trades, we're going to do it in seven trades or something like this, right?
and do it in seven trades or something like this, right?
But we also have the rapid swaps making it happen, you know,
more or less in the same amount of time,
whether it's 10 trades or seven trades, right?
It's like execution is more almost the same or very close to it, right?
So the question has become like, well,
what kind of value do we get out of the POL growing
to some exorbitantly large numbers?
I'm not sure it does. Well, this actually, I feel like further justifies my point, because
what we should see then in theory, as limit orders and rapid swaps grow and more adoption,
the Bitcoin pool is going to become less efficient in a sense.
It's going to collect on a per pool depth basis relative to the other smaller pools.
The smaller pools will become more efficient and they should earn more fees based on their depth.
We already see a bit of this.
Right.
The problem is that the P-Wall is not making any money
despite what the pool is large or small
because the incentive pendulum is pushing
almost all the yield towards nodes.
But the fees are going to nodes, right?
Yes.
So we should want to maximize the fees we get in the network.
And here's this a different way.
If we're making, you know, a dollar a month out of the Bitcoin pool, going to nodes and bonds, but we can take 5% of that out.
Now we're making 95, let's say we're making 95 cents a month.
Let's say it's a linear shift.
We take 5% out, add it to other pools.
And those pools are smaller, but maybe we're making 10 cents a month out of all those new pools.
The POL is the same, but now we're making $1.05 per month.
We've actually increased the yield going to nodes and bonds.
You've actually increased the yield going to nodes and bonds.
I kind of have a different, I mean, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with either one of you,
because you're kind of talking about reallocating.
I get that.
The thing that I think about why I really love the P.O.L., at least my brain does,
maybe I'm missing something, is if you have exogenous assets that are being deposited in the pool,
or you take Rune, you sell half, you put you put in the pool that increases the depth, obviously.
Right now, obviously, arbitrage is going to fluctuate whatever the value of the exogenous asset relative to Rune is going to swap.
But those are assets in the pool. And even if there's no swappers at all, this is going to result in more arbitrage volume because, you know, the macro environment.
And so those assets, instead of just burning the rune, it's actually working.
And when I think about it, we've always said at the very beginning, I remember one of the first things you said, Chad, I think it's 2020, actually, you know, we want as much
rune in the system as possible.
That is the best case thing for it.
It's still true today.
It's still true today.
Yes.
And so if you have pol that
goes into whatever pool maybe we signed to a salon and maybe avax whatever doesn't matter
that pool has to be arbitraged just assume no volume now of course if it deepens you could
make the argument that technically yes you have better quotes you know with streaming swaps limit
swaps rapid swaps this is becoming you know easier for us to be more competitive but that deeper tvl
the deeper tvl coupled with
more swap line i think those are the main drivers of ruin price and if these assets are constantly
being it's like a dividend like it's like an auto compounding dividend every day like that extra
weight in the in the pool has to be arbitraged by some percentage if the macro environment changes
and so that's just more revenue the moment you start putting these assets. And so if you take the long play on this,
we have deeper and deeper pools.
That's just more arbitrage volume.
That's more money.
That's just going to the nodes.
That's more income.
And so I just, because the question is,
is it better than just burning it?
And I think it is, right?
Because people want the burn,
but isn't it also sort of like a burn as well and exactly
and and you could also make the argument that it changes the game theory yeah it's yeah it changes
oh fuck it changes the game theory because if you are a new entree into our ecosystem
a new entree in our ecosystem and you know that there is a mechanism that's constantly depositing
assets into the pool,
that means there's going to be deeper pools and there's going to be more volume,
and so you can expect more volume, which will likely increase the...
So then you're less likely to sell your rune, right?
Yeah.
I think that works.
Instead of burning the reserve, you could also just donate small pieces
over a long period of time
to the po if you wanted like that would achieve the same outcome right yeah you'd have to sell
half the room well would do you have as long as it's inflationary though with the reason it is
but like the question the question is like the p wall is growing the question is where do you
want the money to come from do Do you want nodes to produce less income
and have nodes basically donate some of their income into the PUL?
Do you want the token burn to stop burning and start donating, right?
Which is, you know, those two things are almost the same thing,
but not quite the same thing.
Do you want the reserve to be inflating the token,
like minting tokens and putting into the POL to grow the,
like, is it a net benefit if we,
if I mint 5,000 rune tokens right now
and I just give it to the POL,
is that a net negative or is that a net positive, right?
And you can have, you can say one
and you can say the other.
It's somewhat subjective in some sense,
but like like the
question just comes down to like who do you want to pay it the same thing about like uh about um
you know when we talk about like income like forget about the incentive pendulum just for a
minute the protocol just made ten thousand dollars in this block who do you want to get paid for it
is it the notes is it the lps how's that breakdown going to happen is it the P wall
do we want to burn you want what do you want to do with this money we just got ten thousand dollars
in our pocket we're we going to Disneyland and what are we doing here what's going on with this
money what do you want where do you want to where you want to go and that's like where this structurally
comes down to these questions right it's like if you want the money to go to P all okay if it's the
question is where is it coming from and is it a net benefit or is it a net
negative? And that's, people can say different things with how they feel about it.
I do like the idea of turning off rewards for the pools, converting that into POL instead,
just having all the liquidity being POL, doesn't have to collect rewards and um it can be a fixed
number and uh yeah yeah you can do that you can say 90 of all system income goes to the nodes
10 of all system income you know more or less minus the dev fund minus the marketing fund minus
all those things goes into the remainder of that 10% of it goes into the POL.
Because I'm trying to think as a node operator, right?
Like I'm trying to think long-term.
It's like, I've got, you know,
so much millions of ruin or whatever it is.
I believe in this project long-term.
I think the moment that you have POLs going to the pools,
that's already resulting in a more swap volume.
Like, yes, today we've incurred technically a loss of revenue,
but by deepening
the pools like it's like it's like a feedback loop right like it just the you know pol leads to
slightly very slightly more volume for arbitrage or whatever but then that volume then leads to
more pol being deposited and on and on and on i think well we had like a thousand dollars in
rune burns uh yesterday and so if you would do all pol well that's you know 500 of ruin 500 btc
or whatever who knows you know going into the pools um and you know it's deepening it um
my brain likes it i mean i understand what you're saying though because
you know what are you going to do with the funds but that's just kind of if i have a long-term play
i seem to like it oh yeah what does peel well explain to a five-year-old uh chad you want to do that all right well the p will stands for protocol owned liquidity right and the very simple way i
mean a five-year-old's pretty young to be dealing with crypto so it's kind of hard to describe it
my daughter's four she might be able to get it but uh she's a smart cookie. No, it's protocol-owned liquidity.
So just the protocol is an LP, effectively.
And it's an LP in various Bitcoin pools.
And it's just, it's not really treated much different than what, you know, you are as an LP or anybody else.
Just that the protocol invested some amount of its, you know, its reserve, its ruin.
I think it came from the reserve initially, but I can't remember exactly the top of my head.
It's been a long time. But yeah, it's just the protocol itself owns some percent of its own pools
and right now the pol probably owns you know a large large large percentage of the of the
you know liquidity on the network i don't even know how much i would guesstimate to be 70 80.
i think it's like more like 100 is it close to 100 90 or something like that like yeah it's more like 100%. Is it close to 100? 90 or something like that.
It's high.
I don't even know what the numbers are.
But to be honest, that might change significantly.
If Rune's price went to $5 tomorrow, hypothetically speaking,
then the synthetics that is right now kind of taking an effect
would take much less of an effect.
And so as an LP, your current standing might be like a dollar right now
and your LP standing as a person, but Rune goes to $5
and all of a sudden your LP is worth, you know, a lot more than $1.
It's going to be worth like $10,000.
Please don't quote me on that.
I'm just making up random numbers.
Nobody comes at me with anything later.
But like it would change significantly if room's price just moved uh you
know suddenly to five dollars or whatever i'm not sure how that would change that and that with the
pul because the pul joined at a different time than everybody else in terms of the ratio between
asset and rune that and that matters in that context yeah well um a slight pivot here i'm
gonna go on a hunch here chad, and make a prediction about you.
I'm going to say that you've already got your daughter learning about music.
Am I right about that?
Because you're quite the musician, right?
I do like to play when I have the time.
I have in my bedroom.
I was in my bedroom yesterday.
I have on my chair a ukulele that I like to play on sometimes.
And my daughter comes in, and she's like, can I play your guitar?
I said, sure, go ahead.
And she took it out of my bedroom and just kind of went to the living room here
and started mucking about with it, just plucking strings or whatever,
because she has no idea.
And then she's like, how do you play a song?
And I said, you got to learn how to play.
She's like, how do you learn how to play?
I was like, the same way you learned in school.
I had to get a teacher when I was a kid.
I learned how to play. And that's not true for ukulele. I taught myself in that instance. But in general, I thought I learned from a teacher when I was first learning
music when I was a seventh grader or something like this. So she hasn't really got that much
into music quite yet. And I don't want to be like too cumbersome, you know, and I'm just trying to
ignite her passion for the for the sound rather than the production
of it in some sense if that makes sense like when she takes a bath she has her ipad and has a little
like disney tunes and just getting her engaged and singing along with music i think that's
at the age of four that's probably like what i need to to achieve at this at this age i don't
am i going to push beyond that until she shows some sort of interest to learn,
you know, piano or something.
Yeah, she already showed curiosity and interest, right?
She's like, can I go get, that's her, that's her affirming.
That is her.
That's cool.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's awesome.
That is her.
I remember one of my first jobs, like, in school, and, like, I think I was in middle
school at the time, and I was teaching piano to people, you know, when I was young kids,
and usually young kids and elderly who really want to learn
piano you know but maybe one day i'll teach her i don't know we'll see yeah well uh you know i did
learn a little piano little guitar young about have you heard of the hurdy-gurdy you know what
that is the hurdy-gurdy that thing is freaking cool if rune if rune does really well guys i'll
does really well guys i'll probably learn the hurdy-gurdy because i think it's that cool if i
probably learn the hurdy-gurdy because i think it's that cool if i got some more tell this if talk
got some more what's all this if talk get rid of this well if it goes to a thousand i'm gonna learn
a lot more buddy okay it's contingent room's going to the moon do you understand that is my opinion
okay it's just how high we go bearish on room yeah oh man no never just never buddy yeah yeah
we'll know it's a bull market.
We'll know root is peaking when you buy your,
what do you call it, hurdy-gurdy?
Hurdy-gurdy.
You gotta look that up.
You know what that is, Kenton?
That's badass. I don't.
It's a really old device.
It's like, I think medieval times or something.
It's like a mix between like a guitar
and you've got like a crank
and it's just, it's freaking cool, man.
Hurdy-gurdy.
I'll show it to you later. Well, I know we're coming up on two hours.
I'm trying to wind it back, going a little personal
here. Do you guys feel like we missed anything?
Is there anything else you guys want to say?
We talked about limit swaps, ADR 23, 24.
Rapid swaps. Talk about Hugen
a lot. We love Hugen.
I don't think I can think of anything else really what do you guys
think no you remembered the party invite thanks i completely forgot i got you buddy don't worry
yeah um yes oh hey the simple idea i know we look guys i gotta tell you like me and kenton
telegram groups like we're totally swamped like i have so many dms i can't keep up i literally i just i'm a human i cannot keep up but maybe maybe we just make
a telegram group maybe if you want to make it um i guess but i know people don't have telegram
so yeah then maybe they don't want to use the freaking rvsp app i don't know it's like well
no i'll try and find a different okay for now we'll give you another yeah we'll go with you
and then we'll see um yeah i'll try to think of something um yeah i get it guys i know you
don't want to do kyc um yeah we still have a bit of time right it's what march 12th right we still got six weeks
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah we got we got a lot of time we're trying to try and figure out
here before the next before next thursday yeah um yeah sounds good um okay guys you think we should
uh wrap it there what do you say yeah wrap it there all right perfect hey and remember
uh wrap it there what do you say yeah wrap it there all right perfect hey and remember
final call out to the arbs be ready monday or tuesday i'm just saying be ready
um all right guys well this has been such a fun thursday we love thursday guys just a reminder
um we're going to be having this saturday we're going to have xano a privacy blockchain in fact
i just got done doing a space with them just before this
live stream very cool i've built a relationship with those guys so we're going to bring them on
we're going to learn about them you know how their tech works you know i know they love thor chain
they we talk about thor chain all the time so we'll see what they got for us and of course guys
um keep an eye out next week for thursday we'll have another team coming on the following saturday
so very very cool and always guys, these views expressed are
solely of the hosts and guests. Any
action taken based on this
information is at your own risk. Past performance
is not indicative of future
results. A couple more
things here. Sorry I did a little out of order, guys.
If you'd like to become a node operator,
never a better time with Rune at these prices.
You need some help, reach out to
at RuneTard on X. at RuneTardOnX.
At RuneTardOnX.
He'll help you get stuff, guys, and find bond providers.
And do our friends.
And again, shout out to Ray Analytics.
He helped Kenton with the Masari dashboard.
Thank you, Ray.
You're absolutely great.
He also does recaps on these live streams as well, guys.
So please give him a follow.
He's at Ray AnalyticsOnX.
Super, super good good love that guy
and with that being said guys i think we'll wrap it there thank you chad for two hours of your time
as always you're a legend and we'll see you guys next week all right guys bye everyone bye
