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THORSwap New Leadership & 2025 Roadmap
Recorded: June 27, 2025 Duration: 1:38:54Space Recording
Short Summary
ThorSwap is gearing up for the launch of its V3 protocol, focusing on enhanced user experience and community engagement, while integrating yield functionalities and maintaining strong partnerships. The team emphasizes the importance of self-custody in DeFi, aiming to attract more users away from centralized exchanges.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Hello, hello.
Testing, is this working?
Hey, guys.
I think I need to invite someone else onto the space, otherwise I'm not sure
if it's just me. I think Mogaki might be joining us. I think he just did a 20-hour flight to
Cairns, so he might be knocked out. Yeah, if you want to hop on a space, just raise your hand.
It's been a while since I did this.
Let me see if I can still know how to do this.
Koisu, do you want to join the space?
Mr. Number one on the leaderboard. board. No, I think I sent you an invite, but if it's not working, then yeah, just DM me.
I'll get a few more minutes to see if a mogul will join us
and let others kind of roll in. Oh, hey.
Koisu, you're on the face.
Yeah, I'm excited to...
I'm excited
this whole thing, man you thank you i thought
it's gonna be me so thanks for joining me yeah no problem dude
yeah um yes it's gonna be a chill space uh we haven't done one of these for a while um
wanted to do it on thursday you know just a good just for good old times, but couldn't get it.
I was way too busy yesterday, but Friday's fine.
It's actually Saturday for me, so I'm in the future still.
Yeah, that's right.
I wonder if I should ping the ThoughtChain guy.
I think we can wait a couple of minutes, or if anyone wants to join Space, just raise
your hand.
Otherwise, I don't really have an agenda.
I pinged our latest article to the spaces. So yeah, for the TLDR, for those who don't know, my name is
Alan, you can call me Paper. And I've been a ThoughtSwap contributor since 2021.
I moved over to work on BD work for SwapKit at the beginning of the year, but just returned formally from this week onwards
as the new lead contributor on ThorSwap.
And yeah, ready to ship V3 in the next stage of our protocol.
So just wanted to run a space to have a know have a chat with the community answer any questions
and yeah just generally hang out again
i guess this is kind of a community call so if anyone wants to like hop on just raise your hand
otherwise it would just be me yapping
otherwise it'll just be me yapping you know
do you want to do Q&A?
I have a question
yeah sure I mentioned
folks can
send me questions in the
post I made but I don't know if there's any
but yeah yeah of course
please take it away
it has come up a couple times in
the discord but
I'm a little curious with the new leadership
and kind of where things are going to go.
What exactly will happen with Thor Yield
and whether or not those types of features
would be integrated into Thor Swap itself?
That is a great question.
Yes, I know this question gets brought up a lot.
So if you, I know the V3 roadmap that we shared was super, super long.
So that's actually a big part of V3.
Since 21, I think, you know, we started as, you you know a interface for thought chain um trying to support
all the features uh and for yield you know as we know um liquidity is very important for the
chain so for you was built from the beginning as like a dedicated way to track uh you know
liquidity positions um because at the time you know there wasn't really any way to
check you know performance of your lp uh permanent loss and just generally how things are performing
um since then there's quite a few different tools for that now and obviously the liquidity model on
for chain changes um quite a lot and uh so sometimes you know, thought yield might not be always up to date. And to be, to be honest,
like, I think one of the biggest, you know, things, the,
the, the, we've gotten for,
has always been like, why can't I just check it on thought swap, right?
If I connected my wallets already, like, you know,
I should be able to see it. So I think naturally as a, big focus, you know, for V3 as well, is designing the user
experience for the user.
So if you are a ThoughtSwap user and you have, you know, a liquidity or, you know, you're
staking a Thought and all these things, you should just be able to automatically, you
know, be able to see that on ThoughtSwap, especially if you have your wallets connected,
as opposed to hopping over to a different app
and managing different wallets and things like that.
I can share that we're already building
essentially the Thor staking page
to the current version of ThoughtSwap
to be able to see your VThor, UThor, staking page to the current version of ThoughtSwap
to be able to see your VThor, UThor,
personalized performance as opposed to having
to do that on Thor yield.
We've been doing a lot of upgrades to the backend.
We had our own custom version of ThoughtChain Midgard
for quite some time.
And there was a bunch of custom configurations
that we're trying to migrate over more in line
with the live Midgard endpoints.
So yeah, really apologies to users who may have often
find that the ThoreYield data might be missing or not today.
And yeah, so the goal is to incorporate all the functionality
that you really expect from Thor yield, but like onto Thor swap itself.
And it should just show you whatever your positions
or whatever you're looking to track directly on Thor swap.
So on a technical note,
it sounds almost like the
ThorYield microguard
will eventually
be decommissioned and you guys will just switch
to current midguard or are you
creating some other backend infrastructure
to achieve the same thing?
Yeah,
I believe that it's playing,
yes.
Obviously, 4Sw back in is running on uh socket uh sdk and apis and uh yeah i think the current micro
guard configuration we had was again something that was designed fit for use like many years ago
um but a lot of the features that we really wanted at the time
now is available through Torchain Midgard. So yeah, that's exactly the case, I think.
That would be nice. Mainly because...
It's great to have a source of truth as well. I think in the past, there's been a few times where the data might not be exactly the same
as the ThoughtChain midcard.
You know, we would, and I remember the different ways
to calculate APIs for, you know,
for FI and things like that, right?
So yeah, it'd be good to have just like a single source
of truth that everyone in the thought chain ecosystem can agree on.
There's been times where microG has gone down or more commonly.
And in the past, I would say a couple of years,
mid guard changes would happen and those changes would have to be backported
to micro guard for things to actually function correctly.
And that would take some time in some cases like months.
So switching to standard Midgard
that's offered by, I believe,
yeah, I guess Midgard is a ThorChain thing.
Kept thinking it was kind of independent or not.
And using the standard API that's there,
as long as it offers everything that's needed,
I think that would be a good thing.
Anyway, that's more on the technical side.
Yeah.
But for users listening, that means hopefully there
would be better uptime for being able to access that kind of data.
Yes.
There wouldn't be a one-off piece of infrastructure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there's amazing tools right now.
Shout out to Runescan, Torcheng.net, I mean, there's amazing tools right now. Shout out to RuneScan, ThorChain.net,
you know, Filo's RuneTools,
lots of really amazing tools right now
available for ThorChain.
So yeah, I think users are often,
I think, spoke for choice when it comes to
getting information on their ThorChain LPs,
bonding and all of that.
So yeah, it's definitely been a process.
And I do apologize that Thor yield sometimes
is not most up to date.
But yeah, we're definitely working on it.
I think for me, that's been the one thing
that I've seen asked repeatedly by users
is kind of like, what's going to happen with that.
And so knowing there's a path that sourcewap is going to go down with that is good.
It should give people a good feeling.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Again, it's sort of heading away between the lines in the v3 roadmap.
But yeah, I can tell you that the goal is to really offer that kind of personalized data dashboard experience directly on ForceWop itself.
So another question I had was with the leadership change,
is Mog still going to be around and participating in everything?
So Volgaki is, you know, he's mainly spearheading Socket.
And yeah, so I have his blessing and the rest of the core contributor team
to return to Torsof and essentially take over the leadership role.
But I definitely have a lot of advice from him over this process.
And it's going to be an ongoing process as well.
There's a bunch of, I would say, quite boring but necessary admin work.
You know, just setting up like correct multi-sigs to manage a treasury
and obviously just boring kind of monthly invoicing things.
But yeah, we are more or less kind of carved out the formalized, you know, the ongoing
partnership obviously between Swapkit and DoorSwap and just responsibilities on, you
know, which team is executing which project.
That's good.
It's good to know at least you'll still be in the general ecosystem
with Swapkit so that...
I mean, ThorSwap...
I wasn't around during the days of BepSwap,
but I think he and even you go back that far
so there's some tribal knowledge that goes on there too um so it's it'd be good to have both
of you guys around yeah i mean i kind of hope to mogu would be able to join this call um we can both
like you know uh gossip a little bit about the beginnings. But I can say, yeah, I wasn't actually around during BebSwap.
I think I joined like pretty much right after that,
at the, you know, change to ThoughtSwap.
But I'm sure there's quite a few of you here in the audience
who might be around during the BebSwap days.
I think I mainly used it to convert my, you know,
Bepp2 room to native room when they became available.
But, yeah, I joined in 2021.
So, but at the time, you know, interestingly,
in case anyone's curious, interestingly,
I was, we had like a community NFT project.
So I joined as one of the artists on that project.
But I was a user on ThoughtSwap before that already.
And I had a, maybe I'll just pinned this.
I made a tweet about it.
So yeah, my experience with ThoughtChain ecosystem and ThoughtSwap
was I think maybe some of you have the same
experience where essentially, you know, I was using centralized exchanges for many years and
had one exchange I was using, which like froze my funds for about a month and wouldn't let me withdraw.
You know, I think if you ever had that experience, it really makes you kind of rethink about, you know, why you are using crypto and just what is the purpose of self-custody and the purpose of these assets, right?
And, yeah, so then went down to the rabbit hole of discovering ThorChain and ThorSwap and, yeah pretty pretty much decided that i would only
use decentralized rails um and uh you know as i became more of a user and being you know part of
the community um i think just a lot of the ethos like equal ethos really appealed to me and um yeah
so i joined the now you know i worked in the creative industry for many years. Um, and so I joined, uh, on a NFT project, but, uh, eventually we, you know, I started
working on the Thoughtslot protocol itself as a product manager.
And, uh, when I joined the joke I made was, um, you know, I worked on, uh, like films
and, uh, art festivals and all these things where if you set a date, you have to ship it.
The thing with shipping web apps, crypto projects,
sometimes you can just say soon, soon TM.
The date is a bit more flexible.
So I was comfortable with taking on the challenge, I think,
even though I didn't come from an extremely technical background.
But I felt, hey, other than the all-nighters
and things you might have to do sometimes
to sacrifice to ship products, I was very comfortable
with the pressure of a big responsibility
of executing such an important project. So yeah, it's four years later. I was very comfortable with the sort of pressure of, you know, big responsibility of, you know,
executing such an important project.
So, oh yeah, it's, you know, four years later.
So a lot of things happened obviously during those four years,
but yeah, that's a bit of a small background
story on my experience.
Yeah, I think I came around to ThorSwap in 2022,
but I was lurking in the Discord watching for about six months.
My logs say that I started looking at somewhere around 2021.
So I must have just caught you around the time where I'd have just joined.
As for bad central exchange experience,
there's been more and more stories of that lately.
And it's not even just about suspended funds.
It's like any kind of really, really bad experience.
And I've been through that myself,
not with locked funds,
but with very, very poor customer support
and tax reporting data.
I won't name the exchange,
but I do not use them anymore. The only
centralized thing I use at this point is a fiat on and off ramp. And I'm very, very glad that with
that central exchange, I did not give them more than basic personal information and I had to give
them a social security
number for tax information but that was it I'm glad they didn't have anything
else because they've had some other problems in recent days so once you have
like kind of that bad experience especially in case of fund suspension
it kind of changes your opinion on things then you start to realize just
how important self custody trulyustody truly is.
It's always been toted as a thing, you know, but it really, really is important.
And it's certainly possible to have infrastructure and services that are offered that are completely decentralized and self-custody based.
So seeing more and more of that is just in crypto in general is always a plus.
And I don't really, me personally, I don't really get outside the space too much other than ThorChain and ThorSwap space.
A little bit of Maya, but it's an ecosystem that I think overall just kind of does all the things that I want it to do.
So I don't really have too big of an inclination to change over to other ecosystems
which is i guess good and bad at the same time yeah absolutely i think uh you know there's a lot
of there's always a lot of different d5 innovations um but you know at the at the core of it it you
know it's permissionless money right um bitcoin. And I think the main problem is with
more chains and more ecosystems that appear, liquidity just became more and more fragmented
and siloed. And I think for the first, I mean, this is going way back, you know, right? But
obviously for a long time, it seemed like centralized services or, you know, peer-to-peer
was the only way you could exchange. And then, you know, I think eventually with the rise of DeFi, you know, it became obvious
that like we can turn to the roots of permissionless money with permissionless transfer, right?
So, yeah, I think, you know, Floswap, along with many others in the space, we started
back in, you know, Floswap, along with many others in the space, we started back in, you know, DeFi summer.
And I think the only reason why we're still here is because, one, at the core of what we do is
about, you know, connecting liquidity and allowing commissioners, you know, decentralized non-custodial
transfers to happen. And the other is, obviously, we are more or less a Bitcoin dex. And so,
And the other is obviously we are more or less a Bitcoin dex.
And so thankfully Bitcoin is still here.
So, you know, regardless of market conditions, we, you know, we've sort of always stuck around just because the need has always existed.
And I guess over time it became obvious that it was about connecting more and more ecosystem to native Bitcoin, from native Bitcoin.
So once you can access the, you know,
what is it still 60%, right?
Like the largest market gap in crypto,
then you have a much better way to allow users to,
you know, allow their liquidity to flow freely.
So, yeah, I think we're really lucky to be in this space.
You know, narratives change quite a lot, but the core of what we do hasn't changed. So yeah, I think we're really lucky to be in this space.
Narratives change quite a lot, but the core of what we do hasn't changed.
Yeah, a lot of changes over four years,
but the core ethos as you covered has not changed at all.
It's still the same goal, still the same focuses.
I think that's good.
Maybe you'd, I was thinking,
maybe you want to talk a bit about
some of the recent additions on ThorSwap.
Like for example, Nier is one
that I'm still not familiar with.
And I saw there was a user asking about that
in chat today in Discord.
Yeah, sure.
I'm like, I don't know what those are yet.
I need to read some docs, out yeah well i'm i'll
be writing those um so yeah the good thing of uh this is a slight tangent again i'm really bad with
this so you guys will have to forgive me um but uh you know uh the good thing about having to write
all the docs and the announcement articles um over the years is i have to like force myself to learn about all these things.
And I think that's a good thing.
You know, that's how I got so familiar with the product and everything.
Right.
Um, it's funny if I go to conventions, people always think I'm a developer,
but yeah, so it's very interesting.
Um, so obviously again, going back to what we talked about, um, so
it's all for runs exclusively on swap kit, uh on SwapKit API in the SDK. So SwapKit is actively
doing a lot of due diligence on new cross-chain providers and learning about the sort of just
cross-chain, decentralized cross-chain ecosystem and technology as it improves and grows. So
NeuroTense is a really interesting provider that we've just added.
And we've stealth launched it on TorSwap for maybe a month now, but at least more than
half a month.
I can't remember the exact date when we stealth launched it.
But the whole idea was, okay, first of all, to explain this whole intent, what does it mean, right?
Actually, I made this hot take in Dubai on this panel, because basically I was like,
it feels like every cycle there's a bunch of new terms, right?
Before we had this whole debate about omni chain versus cross chain versus multi chain, this is multi-chain, and now there's interop, which is interoperability, but there's interop,
intense solvers, chain abstraction, there's so many terms. But the thing about, so intense is,
and this is my layman's understanding of it, right? It's essentially a kind of like an advanced version of atomic swaps. So traditionally, the reason why
you know, ThorChain ended up using AMM model is that when you do pair to pair atomic swaps is,
one party A can say, hey, I really want to swap my Bitcoin for this much ETH. But then you really
need a counterparty on the other side to say like, hey, yeah, sure, no problem. I'll give you that ETH. But then you really need a counterparty on the other side to say like, hey, yeah,
sure, no problem. I'll give you that ETH for your Bitcoin. So if that counterparty doesn't
exist, then you essentially don't have a swap, right? So it's very hard to find the liquidity
and be able to execute that swap. And so AMM model as popularized by Bancor and the Uniswap
really kind of solved that problem.
But the problem then became you have to have liquidity pools.
And if the pools are not deep enough, you also have issues with execution.
So Intense and Solver is kind of like atomic swaps in the sense that, and obviously different
Intense-based protocols have different ways of doing this, and they have their own security
and economic models. But intent, from my understanding, is you basically, similar to atomic swap, you say,
hey, I want this much for my Bitcoin, right? And you would lock that Bitcoin into a time-loss
smart card and track of some sort, right? But the difference difference is instead of waiting you know for a individual on the other
side to match your swap um there's solvers which are um uh it could be you know um independent like
market makers it could be uh a you know um like uh like a dedicated market making group of you know
like a dedicated market making group of, you know,
who have liquidity and the, you know,
the other bidding on the auto book system, you know,
for that swap or yeah,
I think that solving mechanisms also is different for different protocols,
but essentially it's,
you always have people with liquidity on the other side,
ready to fill your intent, your quote.
And when the two match, that's when the lock on the smart contract is released and your
swap is executed.
So the idea is essentially it's like known.
So you think about hyperliquid, right? It's doing that, but it's happening on their platform,
which is kind of like chain extraction, right?
You deposit your UCC or have you.
You do the swap, and then you withdraw.
Near Intense is similar in a sense, I believe,
where they also have a chain extraction layer.
So you're doing the swap like on near,
and then you are getting your funds.
But they have this called one click swap.
So essentially this whole process is automatic.
So when you're doing a near intense swap like on ThorChain,
oh, sorry, on ThorSwap, sorry.
It's all automatics.
You're not manually having to deposit your asset on Nier
doing the swap and then withdrawing.
It's happening just automatically.
And yeah, I think they have 20 solvers right now, I believe,
who are essentially fulfilling the quotes.
So I don't know if that helps break it down for you.
Yeah, it does actually.
That's interesting.
It's almost like a combination of a much more intelligent order book system
and liquidity pools in concept combined, powered by smart contracts.
So does that mean that it's predominantly limited to EVM chains
or chains that offer smart contracts only?
Or...
No, so they also have vaults.
But like, so the smart contracts are happening like, you know, for Nair, it's on Nair.
Like Nair is a layer one blockchain, right?
So that's how they're locking the funds.
Ah, I see, I see.
I see.
Again, I'm not saying every intense-based protocol works the same way.
I think it's just in theory of how they function,
it's similar.
Basically, you have the user places a quote.
They have an intent to do the swap at this price.
And then there's market makers called solvers
who are trying to fulfill that quote.
Essentially it's atomic swaps, but like I said,
you always have liquidity there and it's automated.
Well, when I say that you always have liquidity,
that is actually the current challenge,
I think the difference between Intense
and the traditional AMM model that Thorchain and Maya has,
which is, I that Thorchain and Maya has, which is, you know, I think Thorchain and Maya
definitely perform much better in volatile market conditions
because it's, you know, the pool is the pool, right?
And you have arbitrage bots obviously rebalancing the pricing,
but regardless of whatever was going on in the market,
you'll be able to, you know, do your swap.
Whereas I think when the market is moving in a very volatile way and some of these market
makers, they might have to balance equity with centralized exchanges or what have you,
they might not want to fulfill some quotes when the market is, the pricing is volatile,
right?
Because they have quite a tight range for revenue.
So I think it's the pros and cons to both the different models.
You know, we've seen, I think so far,
we've seen definitely ThorChain can, you know,
it's really good for, you know,
when the market is a bit more volatile,
but usually when the market is quite consistent,
you know, you'll see like the exchange pricing is you know the range is small then uh intense based protocols can be a lot more
competitive making me wonder a little bit um whether or not that model the near intense and
solvers model would also be able to offer a liquidity a smaller amount of liquidity like overall quantity
um thor chain has a has a requirement of settings that have to be met prerequisite amount um i
figure if it's like what the multiple is but uh keep thinking 3x but i don't think that's right
um so i kind of wonder if maybe yeah there's outbound fees and you know all that
stuff um i mean theoretically but also with near near like one click swaps you know you you do you
do have to also obviously you still have to pay the gas fees right um because you're getting the
native assets at the end of the swap it's not just doing it on the um abstracted chain itself right so
just doing it on the um abstracted chain itself right so if you were doing this on hyperliquid
um or you're doing it on say uh i think particle network is another chain abstraction platform
like if you're swapping it on there then yeah you can i think whatever size doesn't really matter
um but if you're you know if the funds are going from into native wallets on different you know
ecosystems um then i think it makes sense that um like you can't do like a super tiny swap that is
less than the fees of the gas fees right i think it doesn't really make economic sense
um but that's just my theory i'm sure you can go to yeah yeah you can go test it on
i was also they have like a also thinking about stuff like this though.
There are situations where, at least in the ThorChain model,
where we do end up with people that under certain market conditions
where if they were to do a swap, the slippage would just kill them.
Because the quantity that they're trying to swap is so high that it disrupts the pool excessively.
So I was kind of thinking like, well,
if with near-intensive solvers,
if maybe that would be less of a problem
because you're not, it doesn't use a liquidity board.
If it's another problem, right?
If it's a matter of like having a huge swap,
that's also actually Cloudware ThoughtChain
has advantage right now because of the streaming swaps, right? You're able to essentially swap larger than the size of the pool even.
Whereas with Intense, and that's near Intense because near Funded Protocol itself is quite established as like a layer one.
They've been able to source, I think, a a lot of good market makers of liquidity and scale up
you know to fill quotes um there's a lot of smaller or newer intent-based protocols and
it's a chicken and egg issue really because you know some of them can for example say hey we can
do bitcoin to solana swaps but unless you can onboard market makers who are willing to essentially, you know,
put forward or lock up their, you know, Bitcoin to say, fulfill these swaps,
then some of them could maybe, you know,
could only fulfill 0.01 Bitcoin max, you know?
So there's a loss of, you know, market opportunity there. If you're a market maker, you're just putting a liquidity there,
but there's no swaps happening, right?
So obviously market makers are putting their liquidity
for earning fees, right?
So which comes first?
Is it the swaps or is it the sizing, right?
We have to fill big swaps.
So that is a challenge, I think,
with a lot of Intense-based protocols.
And that's why we've chosen with Near Intense
to be the first one we've integrated,
because we've done a lot of testing,
and they're definitely able to fulfill the quotes
quite successfully.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Thanks for the explanation.
I was thinking of it more from the perspective
of the person doing the swap rather than the person that's put up the liquidity
or a solver.
But yeah, from a money-making perspective, yeah, you're completely right.
That's true.
Yeah, I mean, it's a chicken and egg issue.
You know, I think there's definitely room to improve ThorChain's liquidity model because
it's very much based on UniV2.
And there's more concentrated liquidity models
that's been developed since.
And I know this is a conversation
that the protocol has been discussing for a long time.
And I think recently even there's talks about
building something more like an intense based model
on the Azure app layer, right?
So I think these are all good things to explore
because the technology definitely always has room
for improvement.
And like I said, there's always pros and cons
to different models.
Even though ThorChain LPs might,
you have impermanent loss risk,
there's a counter risk of holding the room,
for example,
but the range for fees is higher,
I would think,
both for arbitrage opportunities
as well as providing liquidity.
And just like I said, in general,
the more volatile the market is,
the more the LPS would be earning
versus if you were a market making
for intense-based protocol,
then, yeah, I think the range of the revenue
is much tighter, right?
So, yeah, I think which one is better is ultimately
we'll have to let the market really prove itself.
But I think as far as a user is concerned,
I personally feel as long as there's no KYC,
there's a diverse range of validators and, you know, liquidity sources,
and we don't see, you know, funds getting, like, captured mid-flight and, you know,
unable to be refunded and, you know, all these things, then those would be, like,
really good DeFi rails that we can support on ThoughtSwap.
Because at the end of the day, you day, it took so many years to build
some rails between Bitcoin and Solana or Bitcoin XRP. It seemed crazy to me that for so many years,
XRP had no way to interact with other blockchains. So yeah, I think the more providers and more rails,
ultimately the users benefit, right?
Because the alternative is using a centralized service
and having to rely on a custodial counterparty.
And yeah, I think that's ultimately, you know,
what we're trying to, well, who are we competing against.
Yeah, at the start of what you were saying, you mentioned time will tell which of those two
options are better. And my opinion is that it doesn't necessarily have to be that one has to
be better than the other. There may just be different market conditions that warrant using
one over the other. But the important thing is that the user doing the swap actually has the
opportunity to choose whichever approach or whichever method they want.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with them having more choices other than having to know how each of those things works.
Let's see. I also I was looking at chat a little bit here.
Haley did ask, let's see, is the goal to attract more chains like near
in order to increase revenue for thor holders and is anything to expect in the near future
that you happen to be excited for that's a good question too
um yeah i think ultimately uh for thought revenue is ultimately mainly driven by swaps, right?
So the more choice, the asset, the more asset choice, the, the, the better the execution,
um, you know, if you can do a swap in, uh, say, even though if it's a tiny bit of difference
in pricing, but if you can do it in say half the time, then I think that's a better user
experience for the user.
Right.
And say, if we always have coverage, you know, if one provider is doing upgrade, and say if we always have coverage you know if one provider is doing
upgrade um if we can always find another route for the user then these are all the things that
can really you know um essentially make sure the protocol is doing what it's intended to do which
is always have um liquidity you know available for for the user so um yeah definitely and uh
available for the user. So yeah, definitely. And in terms of what we're excited by, like I said,
the roadmap article I know is super long and I can just run it for you real quick. The idea is
we've done a feature freeze on ThorSwap V2, which is the current version of ThorSwap.
The last thing we kind of really tried to ship was the TCUI claim, because we felt
that we had a huge responsibility to our users
and to resolve the Thorify situation
and make sure they're able to claim their TCUI
and still manage it, right?
So after that, we're putting a feature freeze on FalseSwap
v2, and we're working on the next iteration of the protocol,
which we're designing it from the ground up.
And like I said, it's going to be very much focused
on the things that we're aware that our users really want.
And oh, by the way, I will be releasing a community survey.
So you can really confirm whether this is something
that you guys really want.
But yeah, so the direction going forward is to design it, like I said, for the user.
So that's like personalized dashboards, having management of your assets directly on ForceWop
in a very transparent way and able to see market trends know, market trends and all these things that like,
I think would make ThoughtSwap a more robust platform.
Right.
And also something else like, you know, kind of, you know,
it's part of the overall roadmap is we're looking to build
a like a new IP, like a new brand alongside ThoughtSwap
that is more targeted towards, you know, non-Web3,
non-DeFi like users.
Because I think as we've continued to build ThoughtSwap over the years and, you know,
like we're adding new providers, there's just more and more extra layers of complexity that we've added, right?
And I think this right now, as we're designing V3, it really gives us a good opportunity
to rethink this whole process from the ground up.
And I think looking across the landscape, there's definitely a lot of improvements in recent years to onboard users, whether it's wallet extraction.
So you can just set up a way to manage wallets using email signup or biometrics.
using email signup or biometrics.
And the whole multi-chain complexity
is something that's slowly fading away
into the background.
And then I think we're finally reaching
a level of maturity where wallets are,
I think mostly like multi-chain now
and they're starting to support more functionality
and they're becoming to support more functionality you know and you know
they're becoming like um daps basically even and uh daps like us are are decentralized applications
like us where you know we should really be building the wallet experience you know de facto sort of
into um the platform and really just be offering what the users actually want to do at the end of
the day which is swapping you know um or staking or whatever it is that they want to do.
So yeah, we're trying to build a new IP that is more kind of the Robin Hood of DeFi, if you will,
right? Where the complexity is really buried, extracted away. And it should just be so simple to create a wallet
on off ramp, some funds,
and be able to like swap cross chain.
But always, you know, build on top of this layer
that is completely centralized and self-custodial.
So yeah, it's a great opportunity for us
to build that product.
Meanwhile, you know, Thorswap and everything we do
can, you know, we can still build in these advanced features meanwhile you know thought swap um and everything we do can you know we can still building these advanced features you know for pro users as
well so yeah that's something i'm really excited by um i'm much more of a product person i think
so you know i use thought swap like for all of my training right so uh yeah you know there's a lot
of features i want so i think uh yeah i'd love for you guys to take a look at our roadmap and give us
feedback on our existing protocol of application, but also what you would like to see in the
source of in the future.
By the way, put your hand up if you want to join this space. I said this at the beginning,
but it just ended up yapping. Thank you, Koisi, for joining me, by the way, put your hand up if you want to join this space. I said this at the beginning, but it just ended up yapping.
Thank you for joining me, by the way.
Otherwise, it would just be me performing stand up.
You're welcome.
I see another question around,
have you guys envisioned any use case related to
general AI or large language models?
My benefit is the art of the operation.
I think so.
I think like, you know, I think it's quite a great, great opportunity where if we, and
this is just me completely like imagining this, right.
But you know, if we had order books, if we had, you know, DCA functionality, right.
Then you should be able to just instruct like, um, an agent of some sort on the floor to say like,
hey, you know, okay, you know,
we're in a back beer market now.
I don't wanna sell my Bitcoin.
I just wanna sell some stats.
Can you like, you know, DCA, you know,
set up a DCA monthly, the weekly monthly DCA strategy for me.
Right.
And, you know, it's our job, you know,
but to connect, like, you know,
to enable the API and the different providers to make that happen.
So I think instead of trying to learn how a certain UI or UX works, something like that,
where it's basically if the user wants to make an informed decision or maybe just understand
how different things work and for an agent to help them execute it,
I see a lot of opportunities for that,
especially with SwapKit API,
which essentially would help to abstract
the complexity of the actual on-chain execution.
And for us, we would just be focusing
on building the user experience, right?
So yeah, I definitely see a um
opportunity to use janitor of ai um and especially agents yeah and i think that's a big thing for you know a lot of projects right now including um like regira like a player on blockchain right so
um well you know if you if you if you're curious also by the way uh i talked to the nia foundation
folks and uh i think that's, and I think it's actually
really relevant to this topic because the whole reason why they built an intense product,
by the way, is not to say like, hey, they wanted to compete with ThorChain or any of
these centralized services. It's actually to basically do what you say, which is empower their agents because near is actually more famously known as a, um, uh, like an AI, you know, um, layer one, right?
Like, um, that, that, that's kind of the whole thing.
Um, and I believe, um, the founder like Ilya, um, you know, he, I think, I think the story
goes like, he pitched this idea of like, oh, I want to be able to just instruct
that AI agent to say like, hey, buy these headphones with my Bitcoin.
And so if you break that process down, it's like, okay, you need a way for the agent to
be able to swap your Bitcoin to say a stable coin and then off-ramp the stable coin, connect
it to your Amazon account, like you know us dollar and then you know
buy the headphones right so a very important like leg of that is like how do you get the bitcoin to
a to off ramp like to a us like usd or something you know especially in a permissionless on chain
manner right so yeah if you think about it yes the swaps is essentially the base layer right um
and again coming back to what we said at the beginning,
it's permissionless money, right?
It should flow freely.
It should just work.
That is what users expect from centralized exchanges.
And that's why they're able to capture so much, like, you know, just so much of the crypto UX over the years
because, you you know like native
ecosystems and defy has just not really caught up right and and so people traded convenience
uh traded custody for convenience and um yeah i think once we really solve this whole like
multi-chain like wallet um and uh you know swap issue is when you're able to see much more interesting projects and functionality
being built. So yeah, that's a long-winded way to answer your question, but I can definitely
see that happening. But I think with ThoughtSwap is our position, obviously, we start off as
like aggregators. So we want to build our own liquidity,
but rather trying to find the most capital efficient way
for users to access liquidity
and also build the best UX for them
to be able to say swap in one transaction.
Because you could multi hop your way
to many different things,
but if the user has to have gas on each chain,
if they have to like understand each chain
and you know how to connect them and then you know pay for transactions then that's when you lose
them right so um yeah in a way you could think of it as like apple they wait for like a um like
technology to mature and then they build a very innovative um the best user experience for that
technology so yeah i think that's kind of the strategy
like Thoughts Up would have,
which is to find really mature protocols
that can kind of deliver on what they say they do, right?
And find ways to kind of connect them together
and just build the best UX for the user.
Yeah, that's sort of our focus.
Let me see if there's any questions.
And by the way- If not, I can read that,
but it's completely a different angle
from what we were just talking about, so.
Yeah, I just saw the large language model thing
and I remembered about Nier.
I thought it was really interesting because, yeah,
it's like coming from the cross chain problem,
from the completely opposite side of the whole experience.
Right.
And yeah, I think crypto is moving towards the level of maturity where users
will have more choice so you're no longer just reliant on centralized
platforms yeah I do like where we are right now as far as support for users
being able to move assets between chains a lot more fluidly compared to say four or five years let's say four
years ago um i i think people are starting to really understand how important it is to have
uh that kind of diversity for you're not just limited to one channel um so i'm i don't my
funds are well i have a lot in ruin but um you know if i was to have a more
diverse portfolio it would it would be like that and i wouldn't want to be able to convert any of
my assets to any other any other asset um anytime i want and i think we're now kind of getting to
the point where that's becoming a more normal thing well say four years ago
i i distinctly remember especially on x or twitter people would say like wouldn't it be
great if i could like convert mic or like whatever they were holding into some other thing and
someone would have to say um are you aware of thor chain and we kind of now uh with how many
dexes we have that that are in front of,
how many frontends we have in front of ThorChain,
and plenty of other offerings,
I think now we're entering that reality,
and I think that's a good thing.
That wasn't my question.
We can talk about that maybe near the end of the call.
No, no, for sure.
I mean, we could talk about anything really
um it's a very open space here um you did mention again uh if anyone has questions please you know
you could put up your hand to join the call you know or just leave them in the comments
yeah so for now uh till we get somebody else up, if they want to, my question was, has there been any internal discussion at ThorSwap about branching the Thor token out onto other chains, like say, I don't know, Avalanche or Arbitrum or anything?
I swear, we did not coordinate on this agenda.
That is a really good question.
I was going to say that at the end of my previous answer,
and I sort of drifted off.
Yeah, so other than centralized exchanges,
obviously, the biggest sort of crush to do cross-chain
for a long time was bridges, right?
And I always feel like, at least in Torch ecosystem, we like to correct people and say to do cross-chain for a long time was bridges, right?
And I always feel like, you know, at least in Torchene ecosystem, we like to correct
people and say like, hey, it's not a bridge.
Because traditionally bridges are being associated with essentially just having a wrapped asset,
right?
So very common in EVM ecosystems where you have a layer two or EVM compatible blockchain,
and then you just have bridges,
whether it's like official or unofficial,
but you just have a bridge representation of that asset.
Right.
That's really great for interoperability,
but it really produces a lot of risk
because a lot of this,
so bridging, it's wrapped bridging, right?
It's essentially is you're locking up like base layer of the base layer, but like whatever
network your asset is actually deployed on and you're issuing like an IOU version of
that.
Right?
And so there is always that introduces always introduces another layer of counterparty risk
because, you know, if the, the native vault of that asset on the chain
that you locked it up, if it gets exploited, then the IOU token essentially loses value.
And I just made a post about this other day.
Like I don't know if even now, if there is a good solution to that. I know there's some new standards
that are being proposed for a long time now. I think Wormhole has something. But yeah,
it's still quite a huge risk. A couple of days ago, their own token and one of like
a top security auditing firm, right? So their own token got exploited,
or the wrapped version of their token got exploited
and drained of value, right?
And that's why ThoughtChain,
we had, ThoughtChain had the Rune token,
had a BEP2 version and a ERC20 token
before the mainnet Rune was minted, right?
And that's why, went through the very painful process, but necessary process
to migrate all those tokens onto mainnet, right?
Because as long as those tokens exist, then you always have this risk.
And so I think there's a lot of research in development that we would need to kind of
take to make sure that if we were to issue THOR on a different
network, it would be done in a very secure way. We actually had a TIP proposal, governance
proposal from a community previously to explore this, releasing a version of THOR on Arbitrum.
And that was the kind of issue, right? So if you release it
neatly, you would need to essentially spin up a pool on Arbitrum for it to be tradable and the
pricing to be balanced. And then you're essentially just splitting the liquidity.
If you don't, you just issue like a wrapped version, then yeah, again, you'll
basically rely on the security of the bridge, right? And yeah, that's a very big risk to
take. So I mean, I use, for example, bridges in the context of if I was using USDC, then
I would use the circle, like the portal wormhole bridge, because
it's kind of like, okay, if you trust USDC, you almost have to trust Circle, right?
Because the issue with, and the only reason why USDC is pegged is because, you know, Circle
backs it, right?
But if it was just finding a third party to, you know, to manage the security of that bridge,
then yeah, that's quite quite
a risky proposition and i'm sure there's much smarter people um you know in the space even
who could maybe have a better answer than that right so yeah we i mean we're definitely
considering it um but yeah it's uh you gotta you know sort, sort of do the property diligence. So it sounds like for the, in the interim,
we stay on ERC20 for Thor.
But we've actually, you know,
we've consolidated, you know,
all the liquidity now on blockchain.
So it's the deepest pool obviously is Thor room.
You know, we still have like Sushi,
like ETH room as well.
So yeah, maybe Univ4.
It's something that's more interesting
if you had to concentrate a liquidity model.
But essentially, it needs to be kind of what the community wants, right?
And also it needs to be a liquid.
That's a big problem with token if it's e-liquid, right?
So building up liquidity is difficult.
I see badges in the space.
He did a lot of work, huge profit badges
for a long time to build up our protocol on liquidity
for a long time.
And that's what allowed Tor to be, you know, tradable, right?
I know users always kind of requested
decentralized exchange listings and all this stuff.
And yeah, I mean, part of that is,
depending on narrative and momentum,
part of that is a bit of a play-to-play situation, right?
And even then, it doesn't really solve the problem because frankly, you know, I did
a lot of research about this because, you know, community always asking about centralized
exchange listings. And so, you know, it's not an easy thing because, yeah, first of all,
you also would fragment liquidity because you could be using that liquidity, you know,
on chain. Right. And second of all, you need to find market makers to manage liquidity on centralized exchanges.
They need to get paid.
And if you don't have a lot of volume,
then, you know, exchanges could just delist you, right?
And then it's kind of just like,
well, are you, as a centralized,
I'm sorry, as a decentralized exchange protocol,
should we be spending our time and energy to
promote people to trade Thor on a centralized exchange? Right? It seems also intuitive.
But these are all the kind of factors we really need to consider, right? So...
Yeah, that's fair. I always think of Thor mainly, I have my own view of it, but I always
think of it as like mainly a governance token for a Thor swap because of community incentives
and all the tips that we go through. So, but that's not how everybody uses it necessarily.
Yeah, I think you should check up on VThor and UThor sometime. I think it should check up, check on, check, uh, check up on Vthor and Uthor sometime.
Um, I think, uh, it's funny because it's almost like a very underrated, um, you know,
aspect to our protocol, right?
You know, we were one of the first to do, um, fee sharing, um, in a very significant
way, right for how many years, three years now, like we've shared 65 percent of all these um collected
thought swap to our stakers and you know there's a lot of you're referring to vthor yeah i'm
referring to vthor but now obviously we have youth or as well um yeah but just collectively you know
whatever fees we're collecting on thorswap, 75% of that is shared with Thor stakers.
So that's actually something quite rare in this space.
People talk about real yield a lot, and often there's a lot of token emissions involved, or it doesn't exist at all.
There's no fee sharing.
But we fee shared from the start. involved or it doesn't exist at all right there's no fee sharing but we featured from
the start and so you know I think Thor or V Thor Thor ratio just hit like one to three
recently that started off obviously one to one right so it's tripled over the years and
you know we launched VU Thor I think in late February, like early March this year.
And that's you stake the Thor and you get rewards in USDC instead.
So VThor is you collect fees, you collect rewards in Thor.
So the over time, you know, the more VThor, one VThor is worth more and more Thor.
So it's also compounding. For UTHOR, it's you stake your THOR and all the fees, like I said, 75% of our fees collected
and it's split in terms of a ratio, right?
Depending on where people are staking.
But you collect your rewards in USDC.
And it's been pretty consistent at around 25 to 30% APY.
Yeah, I mean, it's actually pretty nuts.
I think since March we've distributed
like over 1.8 million like US dollars in value.
So yeah, people are just, I mean,
Uthor is kind of, it's's like i like to say it's almost like
too good like to the point where people are they don't want to talk about it because it's like
if you share this information more people you know stake into youth or and they'll probably
you know you get less like stable coin right so it's too good i hadn't considered that yeah you're right i'm still just holding on to my before how it is i
haven't converted it over um i haven't had any real need to but uh yeah yeah okay even i no i
just had my vehicle um for many years and it's part of the tip you know like uh contributors you
know we we can't uh stay lethal because because we were distributing bonus rewards to VTHOR, right?
So I moved my THOR to UTHOR.
And it's just interesting, all these years I've just been staking VTHOR,
I never even considered how much rewards we were giving out until it's put into a dollar value.
And then I was shocked, actually.
Yeah, it's actually pretty shocking. And I think, yeah, it's very rare in the space to have
a protocol that is, you know, essentially a mature business, you know, it's cash flow positive,
it's a sustainable business, as far as, you know, we're able to still have a pretty decent volume right now.
And thanks to essentially a lot of the costs of the back end is now split off into a swap kit,
where we can afford to run a very sustainable business essentially. So, and uh yeah it's uh something that i think
we will definitely make sure more people know about this um yeah you know um don't keep the
secret to yourselves guys yeah uh it's a that's an untapped gold mine everybody heard it heard it
here first yeah it's just interesting that the the narrative is so strong right now in crypto but um i think a
lot of it's people saying you know projects should be like this but not many are actually delivering
that whereas like essentially we've done it for three years already and then you know we've we've
basically proven that it's actually doable you You just gotta make sure the incentives are aligned, right?
And I think, yeah, if you were actually staking
your V2 and U2 in the past couple months,
you would have seen that like, wow, it actually works.
And okay, that's me shilling,
but I think we don't share it enough.
So I'm gonna like shamelessly shill it to take the opportunity to.
No, that's fine.
It's my job too now, right?
So I got to do it.
I got to do it.
It doesn't get talked about verbally very much.
It's mainly something that we see discussed on the Discord,
but I don't see it talked about on X or much at all.
So it's unfortunate.
Yeah, I think, you you know unfortunately a lot of times
especially the cycle people think you know very quite like short time frames right so you know
the things we're talking about is something that i think people would like to have and they would
like to see right but at the end of the day you know people are very concerned about short-term
price movement and and just you know um when is the old coin season starting and all this stuff, right? So
obviously, you know, that's rough. But I think if you truly consider like what we've built and
what we're kind of building towards going forward, I think we're so mature now where,
yeah, I'm not super concerned about us, you know, worrying about, oh, are we capturing the latest narrative,
whatever is, is it memes, is it AI, is it what have you.
It's really for us, it's about, okay, what are our users actually doing and how can we
improve the experience for them and introduce more people to DeFi rather than using centralized
exchanges. So it's very real world problems that we're solving, I think.
And yeah, that's why I'm not super worried about any, well, I mean, at the end of the
day, obviously, if folks have concerns about the token and stuff, we can definitely talk
about it, right?
But I think collectively as a protocol, we're not like a meme coin project
worrying about utility or anything like that.
We came from the trenches of last DeFi summer
and we're having a proper design
and utility was crucial.
And I think we were forged out of that.
So yeah.
But if anything,
that just reinforces the importance of community involvement.
So if listeners or anybody that catches this on a recording wants to get more involved in that, I think everybody in the project would unanimously encourage that.
Because community involvement and especially stuff that gets made to tip is really important.
And it's pretty open. and especially stuff that gets made to tip is really important.
And it's pretty open.
I mean, literally, you can pretty much propose anything.
So if you do have some ideas or whatnot, please bring them to the team and let them talk about them and see if we can get something proposed to vote, possibly.
It's whatever users want, you know.
Yeah, because I was managing the portals
for a while, right?
And I think from the beginning, we obviously
had 50% of the Thor occasion towards our community pool.
So it was really just for community governance.
But by governance, I mean, like, usage of that supply to improve Torch swap, right?
And so, you know, we've done like 16 proposals now and there's a lot of tokenomics changes
I would say over the years.
And I think, like you said, you know, essentially it's really open for idealization but to kind of be formalized as a governance
proposal to be executed upon, to put it in another way, it needs a way to be executed, right? So
an idea is fully formed when it can be executed, right? So I think we have an interesting idea now in the...
I'm going to shout this user out.
In the Discord, what's the latest one, actually?
There was a community idea for introducing limit orders.
So the Cougars proposed this idea.
And I think it's a great idea. We should definitely have limit orders. So the Cougars proposed like this idea. And I think it's a great idea. We should
definitely have limit orders. The issue is, you know, it just, it needs to be kind of
more focused, you know, to take form as a proposal, right? By that, I mean, it can be
executed. Otherwise, you know, it's just like the arbitrary token migration idea.
The best I think we could do at that stage
was to do research into how it could be executed.
Because there was a lot of obvious things
that our users could benefit from, but if there's no
clear way to build it or make it into reality, then we could have all the governance voting
in the world that would just be a chat with the community, and yeah, we can brainstorm ideas.
And I would like to host more community calls like this so we can explore this as a community.
yeah and if something gets uh gets heavy momentum under it i mean it's for official
governance process i mean it just needs to be formalized and and the plan plan designed to
actually implement it and how we would go about that and that i think that turns some people off
because they have good ideas but they're like oh i don't to, I don't have to think about all the little bits and pieces, but the community and ThorSwap as a whole,
some people will step up to do that
if it's something that they agree with
or they feel passionate about.
So if you have an idea, don't feel discouraged
or that you, please bring it to the table
because I think it's surprising in this space,
especially in the general Thor chain ecosystem,
somebody may have one idea,
not think it's important.
And then one day they just happen to mention them passing.
And the next thing,
you know,
like two weeks later,
there's like,
it's coming to fruition.
So you can,
you'd be very surprised by how often that happens in this space.
So please, if you have ideas or improvements or whatever for a Thor squad, please do bring them up.
Yeah, I would say like, you know, some ideas, you know, if it's like, hey, add Cardano or something, right?
And it's like, okay, well, we, you know, we know that Maya is integrating Cardano.
So it all happened at some stage in the future, you know, so it might not
even need a book, right?
It just needs a discussion.
And that's quality feedback, right?
And, you know, quality requests, like feature requests.
So others, you know, I would say the best, you know, kind of ideas.
Like I said, the passwords, stuff like I said in the past, where stuff like essentially Gamer was still working at Maya, he made an idea about, hey, you should integrate Maya protocol.
And it's like, hey, that's great.
We were considering it already, and it's great to have someone directly from Maya working with us to make that happen, right?
Or, you know, when the 14th University wanted to do education campaign,
essentially it was a great ecosystem partner who designed somebody good
and he just needed some support.
That's a great idea.
And it's clear who would be able to execute that, right?
So yeah, those again, they're not trying to dictate like how the
idealization process goes but like I said, it's the best proposals are the
ones that have a clear pathway to execution.
Yeah, we've got to start somewhere so for community just people listening just you
know you have an idea bring it to the table um hopefully it's more about thor swap it's about
adding a chain uh that's a little more complicated uh depends on what it is and all that but you
can bring those up too um i like the the limit order idea um i mean that's been floated around
the the limit order idea um i mean that's been floated around yeah i know i believe
yeah no no chad chad built i think the autobux uh basically like i think it's already built
he just needs um i don't actually i can't remember it's at, but I believe it's really close
to be shipped if, you know, the protocol has to do a bit more work on it.
So yeah, that's something that I know a lot of people is really looking forward to.
And I think we can certainly take the mechanisms and build, you know, a limited order UX, right?
On 4Swap, that's kind of what we do, right?
So yeah, looking forward to that um
likewise you know if our other providers are able to like offer that kind of a mechanism we can you
know start fleshing out what a limit order um ux might look like um because for us at the end of
the day i think because our positioning is is you know, basically a Bitcoin DEX, right? So it would be, you know, we can certainly support single chain order,
limit orders, but really the experience our users expect from us, right? And as just as
another level of complexity, if you have, you know, support for Bitcoin on the swaps but not for limit orders. I think we want to offer a unified
experience for our users.
Oh, I see Hardog asked after Swapkit split from ThorSwap, do you see ThorSwap as a showcase
for Swapkit? And if yes, I would like to see more emphasis
on have it running more smoothly
and more focused on troubleshooting.
Absolutely.
I think something that might've been missed in the TIP
is that TorSwap, you know,
even though Swapkit has been spun off
into its own sort of B2B SaaS company, right?
We have ongoing partnership.
And as part of the TIP as well,
Portswap, you know, has basically 75% off,
you know, like SwapKit fees.
So that is a huge advantage for us
in terms of having, I want to say,
like one of the best cross-chain, you know,
swap routing solutions in crypto.
As you can see, there's a lot of wallets using it, right?
But ThorSwap definitely has the most support for routes and providers.
And NearIntense, I think it's a good example of that.
Like we shipped it first in terms of like, you know,
we can have access to providers to help them
also battle test it.
Right.
Like, can they actually handle these swaps?
But yeah, it's also this is the definitive sort of showcase for SwapKit.
And that's why we also benefit from that essentially like ongoing partnership with both in terms of helping take the load off our back end
costs, but also having really great tech.
So yeah.
But in terms of promoting it, we can definitely
add a power swap kit, you know, somewhere in v3.
But yeah, I like to think I promote
a lot on SwapKit as well when I was doing
the comms.
So yeah, if you feel like we're not doing it enough, then yeah, I think I'll pass that
Okay, I see the ThorChain account here.
Who's on the account? Is it Tyler?
Is it the intern?
Which intern?
Right. The intern. Whoever's been doing a great job in the past couple couple months man oh nail it yeah you shout out for sure um
i mean we've going on for over over an hour now um does anyone want to say something on the spaces
i'm not sure if it's my ex uh you know if you requested to speak and i didn't invite you up
my bad i i really can't see any requests here so sorry if i missed you You requested to speak and I didn't invite you up. My bad.
I really can't see any requests here.
So sorry if I missed you.
And X is notorious for being kind of flaky.
Yeah, every time I do one of these spaces, I'm always like, you know, panicking at the back of my mind. It's like,
no, don't rug.
I'm doing this thing
where I'm sleeping on my personal account
on my computer and running
the spaces from the swap account on my
phone. So, yeah,
hopefully.
My idea is like, what if one of them breaks?
At least I've got the other one.
Yeah, I've already been kicked off once and i know we had oleg earlier and i think he might
have gone through the same thing par for the course on x yeah um uh let me ping some stuff i
you know i made an announcement now a small letter to the community, announcing the big changes.
I think I did that at 6 AM in the morning after all night. I keep waking up and then realizing,
oh, there's more people to thank. If I missed you, please don't take it personally. Honestly,
I just need more leave. I just wanted to shout out like so many
supporters of force swap over the years um you know there's obviously the we actually still have
that me6 like leaderboard like i i realized the other day so yeah and then to my surprise
a pleasant surprise kotsu you know like i said it is the number one yapper, if you know what that means, on Discord with 24,000 posts.
Just insane.
Just thank you so much for being such an amazing supporter
and I think everybody in the community knows you, right?
Such a legend.
And yeah, I just passed in the past contributors,
you know, current supporters,
you know, all the teams that have supported us.
Obviously, like every resource ecosystem,
you thought, so I wouldn't be here
without all of your support.
So yeah, I mean, it's kind of sounds like I've got,
you know, just leaving or something,
but really it's more I'm just arriving
and I just want to make sure everyone knows
that I'm hugely passionate about what we do.
And yeah, I want to make sure I make everyone proud
and just grow with the community.
Yeah, and now we also have support from Maya as well, right?
Which is, again, not a ThorChain competitor,
but just kind of like the two complement each other.
And so ThorSwap being kind of, so to speak,
in the middle or off to the side from both of those is fantastic.
So now we have multiple other devs and PMs from there
that are equally as awesome.
Yeah, absolutely.
Obviously, Alux is like a huge legend in both ecosystems,
I would say, communities.
Yeah, like you said, I don't really feel like any of the providers
who support our competitors in that way.
I know there's a lot of jabs sometimes being thrown um on on twitter
but you know that's just what they say right like crypto twitter being crypto twitter right
if there's no drama then it wouldn't be crypto twitter right um i think there's a lot of like
room for each of us to like help each other improve um you know i think uh you know just
just like the way that forechain essentially essentially, I don't want to say take inspiration, but just the Maya cacao model leading to it being a great solution for Thorfire was hugely inspiring.
Personally, I always knew about the Maya token, but I didn't really understand how the mechanisms
work, right?
So when Alux came in and put forward that as a solution to Thorefy, yeah, that was so
inspirational.
I'm so glad to see that the Swatchain has rebounded so well.
And yeah, I think, again again some jabs here and there but really
you know chainflip um there's some interesting things like chainflip has done with the liquidity
model um that they do actually they they they also have kind of like an intense uh they did
you know they're kind of a half intense i would say uh base protocol you know they're like a mix between centralized, I was not centralized, how do
you say it? What's the word? I was not centralized, concentrated, concentrated liquidity and intent.
I know obviously has introduced trade assets and there's talks about, you know, what is it that they're building
on Vajira potentially to help with, you know, quotes and executing swaps better.
So yeah, those are the things that I think are really exciting because we often say like
sometimes swap protocols could just be the boring protocol, right?
Like as long as you do the job of like cost chain swaps really, really well.
Um, I think often we forget is how much of a holy grail that is like last cycle.
Right?
Like when the first Bitcoin to Ethereum swap was done by Thorchain, I think that
was groundbreaking.
Right.
So, um, and I think we will often lose sight of that and you know we're
reminded when we see people still asking oh how can i swap my you know pick up to ethereum um
and you know so and so if like some interesting changes froze my funds um and it's just shocking
to us it's like wow you know um it should be obvious by now but uh i think there's so much
room to grow you know and um i i can, you know, sometimes there's a lot of different users whose needs need to be served, right?
There's always new ecosystems that need to have their liquidity connected.
You know, there's tons of, I'm sure, Bitcoin maxis who don't even realize you could, you know, manage their Bitcoin in a more decentralized manner.
You know, they're giving it to
custodians, right? There's probably... Yeah, there's just so much untapped potential for
DeFi that we still haven't seen yet. I think we're thinking like, oh, each new provider is fighting
for the same size of the pie. But when this reality, the pie is like so much bigger, right?
If you look at, you know, like centralized exchange volumes,
it dwarfs the DeFi still,
but DeFi is vastly growing every cycle.
So I think this, you know, we celebrate, you know,
one Bitcoin plus size swaps, but there could be much bigger swaps or much higher frequency, you know? And yeah, I think, you know,
personally, as, you know, Bernie Thor swap, I just want to continue driving that. And yeah, I'd love to see the ecosystems definitely like collaborate more
and just help each other improve.
Yeah, for me, whenever we see big swaps come through,
it's interesting, but I'm always more impressed
when there's somebody new that gets introduced
to ThorChain or just the general ecosystems as a whole. It doesn't even matter. It doesn't have to be ThorChain. And my hope is that
we'll start to see a huge number of smaller swaps where I know that general users and not necessarily
whales are using the platform and the protocol, or I should say protocols, really, more and more,
and it becomes more and more of a commonplace
thing and it's not just for fees
and you know all of that it's more about
seeing more people get on to
DeFi and
get away from central exchanges
this kind of all circles back to what we talked about
like 45 minutes ago
it's all kind of interrelated
you know
yeah yeah absolutely um and i think
maybe that'll be in the form of you know these other features that we talked about that could
really round out that experience right um you know like limit orders dca right you know these
things that can uh again you, like that's the basics,
right, that centralized changes have offered for years and years.
And if we get those right, I think we'll see more users.
Right?
So I'm not talking about like larger size,
I just like more users in general, because those are the things
that they really want to do.
And they don't have choices other than wrapping their tokens
and then doing that, right? Or using a
centralized service. And then the other things can come after that, right? Whether it's like
perps or lending or, I know it's a scary word, right? Or yield, right? Like these things.
I think it's the other exciting things about defy that you know as you
could go down the rabbit hole you know that people want to start doing but at the end of the day if
it's like kind of um trading right or accumulating you know certain assets such as again bitcoin um
then yeah i think we can just look to the fundamentals and then there's room for these basic problems
that we still haven't solved yet, right?
I think we solved it like,
what is the better way to do over atomic swaps?
I think we solved that now, right?
Also like all versus central exchanges.
I think we've done a great job solving that.
So yeah, I think what's next is like,
hey, let's have some order books, like, you know, limit orders.
Have, yeah, like I said, DCA.
I think DCA will be really great.
And, you know, maybe there's some way we can figure that out, you know.
But, I mean, even ThoughtChain, you know, potentially you could use streaming for that, right?
If you uncap the 24 hour limit on streaming,
and you know, you build a DCA product out of that.
Or maybe it happens on the app layer.
So anyway, I'm just brainstorming.
And I think, yeah, there's a lot of mechanisms
like that we can still, you know, be excited for.
I think on a different discord,
we were chatting about that.
Somebody was asking about max streaming swap duration and my impression is that it's it's uncapped I I don't know I think inbound fine is still 24 hours but I think the streaming swap duration is could potentially be years.
depending on what parameters you set.
I know there's one area that probably needs a little bit of help.
I've seen, at least on the ThorChain ecosystem side,
it's pretty clear to me that people wanting to do trade accounts
and work with trade assets need almost a little bit of help.
It's just memos and whatnot,
but there's a lot that goes into interacting with ThorChain in a safe manner.
So, you know, don't send funds to an old vault, that type of thing.
Whether or not a chain is down and all the little edge cases that ThorSwap and SwapKit both have kind of managed to solve and wrap their brains around.
solve and wrap their brains around.
But trade assets are still
kind of an area
where people that want to get involved in
Arbing, whether they make their own bot or they just
want to do it themselves, they don't
really have a way to do that.
I haven't really seen a front end that's come
along to do that other than
AsgardX. And even
that, you can't do L1 assets.
You can only do Rune
to whatever the trade asset is.
So there's, that's just one area.
I mean, Ruggiero is doing all their stuff.
I can't even, those guys are shipping like mad.
I can't even believe it.
When I saw lending come up, I went, oh boy, here we go again.
But it's going to be a different, different model, I'm sure.
But they've got all their stuff going on maya
has their stuff going on um there's also secure assets on doorchain that i haven't even read up
on all those yet so there's a lot of things going on um that might seem small but when you add all
those things together um that's when you know if you that old saying where you know if you build it
they will come uh that's probably going to be the case here.
And I think now is a really good opportunity for everybody to just start,
or just continue on with building now that we've kind of gotten some of the
the rough patches sort of under control, you know, with TCY and the Thorfire ordeal.
So I think it's hopefully more smooth sailing going forward.
Yeah, no, definitely.
I would say for many years, ThorSwap was,
I think we also felt like we had the responsibility
for a long time as the, I like to say,
it's called the flagship front end.
I don't want to say we are the main front end, right?
But certainly there was a lot of...
We bear a lot of responsibility and expectations.
So whenever there's a new feature on blockchain,
we would try to ship it on day one if possible, right?
And I think over time, especially now,
it kind of makes more sense for us to really ship
when we are confident that our users have the best UX
and the whole process is as secure as possible.
Yeah, I think that is probably the better way to do it going forward.
You know, even the recent Regiro launch, you know, or TTY, right?
We were a couple of days days late but i think we
just wanted to get it right um obviously it's so um important for you know for users right um
and yeah and thorswap also the main one that uh offered the primary one that offered ledger support
um which kept coming up over and over and there was really no solution it's like i just had to keep telling people you gotta wait for thor swap it's gonna and when you guys did it just work
like that's what everybody kept saying i would i would i would love that to be our you know sort of
uh positioning on having you know product launches going forward it just works right i know often it
still can be some hiccups but ideally that's what we want to do. Right. You know, with, with, with Riji, you know, we, we were testing, like we,
we pushed the life, you know, but we're testing and obviously there was
the issue with the balancing balances.
Right.
And that took, you know, just some coordination with the Jira team and
you know, to understand what was the cause of the issue and try to resolve it.
So, you know, as we have more different ecosystems
and different teams and different providers,
the complexity increases, right?
So I think you might see like launch pace slow down
in the sense that, oh, maybe this feature is live,
but it's not live immediately on ThoughtSwap, right?
And I think even for chain launches,
I think we've taken that position for a long time now because
it used to be if the chain is greater than ThorChain, the treasury would help see the
pool and you can almost start trading immediately.
Well, if not in the past, you had Stagenet and you like test swaps on station it um but nowadays you know it's
a a chain go live you know the pool might go live but you know you're still waiting for liquidity and meanwhile you know we are still testing like actual swaps right production so um yeah it doesn't
make any sense well it's not really responsible for our users to ship something like that straight
into production anymore. Right.
So yeah, I think going forward, especially now that, like I said, we're doing a feature
freeze on V2 and, you know, we really kind of focus on rebuilding V3 from the ground
And yeah, I think it's very important to me and the rest of the team that, you know, for
the users, it's really about solving, doing the basics really, really, really well. Right.
And then we can expand on the more advanced features or product suites.
And luckily, I think, you know, this space moves fast,
but there's also like huge improvements happening all the time.
And I think, you know, we don't always have to be first,
but we can deliver the best, you know, you experience.
And I think ultimately, I think that would be probably what our users want. have to be first, but we can deliver the best experience.
And I think ultimately, I think that would be probably
what our users want.
Yeah, I agree.
I know you and I, and I've talked with Tawan about it
as well, some of the limitations that we currently
have on v2 that will now that SwapKit has basically
been decoupled from ThorSwap.
Now there's kind of an opportunity to take all of the learnings from ThorSwap v1 and v2 and kind of come up with something
that addresses a lot of the stuff that's been learned
and things that have been a struggle in the past.
So for me, I'm excited about that because I'm like,
I can't wait to see what you guys build.
Yeah, I think ultimately, you know, the day that we have like, say, like no support tickets
for, you know, like days that that would be, you know, or either it also supports us that's
very broken, or we've just we've just done such a great job that everything just works,
right? I think it just works is kind of the stage we get to, because that would mean
we've done, oh, you know, I didn't even mention, you know, I think a big goal for v3 is to really
have a much better process of, you know, education, documentation, and just, you know,
you know, helping users understand, navigate this whole thing, right? Because I think
users understand, navigate this whole thing, right? Because I think we've got so much knowledge we
built over time. And I think, you know, there's a lot of users, you tell them like, hey, you know,
what's the transaction hash? And for them, it's just like, what's that even mean, right?
You know, so I think there's so much room to improve there as well. I would say, you know,
as someone that, you know that has proactively checked out
tickets over the years, yeah, I think education is a huge gap.
And obviously, also just stability of supporting
our general tech stack.
And that's grown over time.
You've seen the wallet chart.
It's mad.
And for me, I almost feel like, yeah,
wallet abstraction is quite key because, you know,
for general users, that is probably the best way
to manage the assets.
And then for advanced users,
we can still offer them that really robust suite
of, you know, different wallet solutions and providers
that they can be, you know, comfortable wallet solutions and providers that they can be,
you know, comfortable with whatever it is that they're using. But yeah.
Yep. I agree with you completely.
There's so much like things, you know, crypto is yet to solve, right? I think,
you know, Ethereum is trying to solve the gas fee, you know, approvals, like smart contract
approval stuff. I remember like, you know, when you first like started using Ethereum,
you were shocked that it worked this way, right? That was years ago. So like you know when you first like started using ethereum you were shocked that it worked this way right that was years ago so you know these things all need to be first right
yeah i hell i'm still shocked by some of the things on ethereum even even now and like when gas is
under under a us dollar i'm like wow that's pretty impressive and then you know that only lasts for
so long um and it's back up to like three us dollars or something and then uh but it's it's not
like what how it was when there was the whole nft thing going on yeah crazy like hundreds of dollars
per transaction man i i i'm ashamed to say i i definitely done that at some point so yeah it's
crazy yeah well we can look back on some of those times. And I mean, hell, the L1 chains have also improved things over time.
I know Ethereum certainly has done a lot of stuff.
And I know what Bitcoin now has some kind of smart contract.
So things are changing.
And at least for Thoroswap, I think these types of things kind of align with new opportunities and kind of solidifying the UI and the UX on ThorSwap into something that's stable.
It's been around the longest, and I still think it has the most wallet support or close to it compared to other front ends.
to it um compared to other front ends um but uh it's kind of like the de facto norm of and don't
forget we still get lots of people to come in and think that thor swap and thorshane are the same
thing that still happens um just because of how old thor swap is so um anyway uh coming on uh 8 40
in the morning here and i gotta get started for my day job, so I'm going to have to bail.
Yeah, thank you so much, man.
Yeah, it's like 3.40 AM for me,
so I'm going to have to...
Oh, hacking.
So I got to hack my flight in like four hours.
But yeah, thanks so much for joining me.
It's great to have a chat with you.
Yeah, we'll do more community calls like this.
I'll try to see if we can get some questions
in advance next time so we'll have a bit more agenda.
Yeah, I just wanted to, again, I just
wanted to have this call with everyone
and just generally chat about what we're looking to do.
So thanks so much, Kuesu, and thank you,
everyone who joined us today.
Kuesu Kuesu Kuesu, Welcome.
Thank you for being here.
Awesome.
OK, well, onwards as I always say.
All right. Okay, guys.
All right. Cheers. Thank you.
