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TOKENISE EVERYTHING? 👾 The Aggregated Ep. 105
Recorded: March 21, 2025 Duration: 3:27:33Space Recording
Short Summary
The conversation delves into the growing trend of tokenizing real-world assets (RWAs) and the potential for innovative financial solutions in the crypto space. Key discussions include the impact of partnerships, grants, and the evolution of decentralized finance, highlighting the importance of community engagement and the future of asset tokenization.
Full Transcription
Yn ystod y cyfle, mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle.
Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle. Mae'r cyfle wedi'i ddod yn ystod y cyfle. You I found a place that I could While we're gone all the years Infinity and scalability
Gone ends the game
Get to give in every game
Scalability, scalability
While we're gone ends the game
The future is the end.
Keep us strong,
don't let us down.
Down. Along the gas, I try the Polygon, pump it up. Polygon, pump it up. Polygon, pump it up.
Polygon, pump it up.
Pump it.
You gotta pump it.
Pump it.
Pump it.
You gotta pump it.
ZKDBM is a theory and ZKBVM is Ethereum. ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum.
ZKBVM is Ethereum. ZKBVM is Ethereum. You gotta pump it, pump it, pump it.
You gotta pump it, pump it, pump it.
You gotta pump it, pump it, pump it.
You gotta pump it up.
You gotta pump it up.
You gotta pump it, you gotta pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it ["Polidonic Lair"] Mr. Dude Everything, baby Desk these loads of BS too fast Near to bridge up with the past
In the past while a love cell will give
Chains in sync, modular future, yet fast sync
Aggregated, no more we
We'll watch out one click and it's validated
Mr. Doon saying yo let's check his site
Roll into the chains and we do it right
Polygon powered resetting the pace
CK, World's got us ghosting the race
Proofs not, CK wave.
Privacy strong, keep them taxes saved.
Usually ass exerbate tonight.
Mr. Doostepfins said, I'll keep it bright.
No one knows where he came from.
Kind of mysterious.
Cereal knowledge or he's getting serious.
Spoons to do, what's your take?
Serious face, but a five so fake.
The muticus might be disappeared.
Came back whispering, privacy's weird.
All right, welcome everybody to the aggregated episode 105. That is the first I'd actually
heard of that song. Well done there, Panda Man. Have me laughing there in the background.
I am Mr. Dude hosting with Quick Swap. We got Darren there. We of course always have Polygon
here representing and we got Rock up here doing
his thing. Aztec is off again today, as you heard, stuck in ZK land. So we're just hoping
he can get out of there and get himself back here. I'm sure he will be listening from ZK prison and
he's just doing his thing. So welcome to the show, everybody. As always, we'll do a little
go around the table, a quick introduction. You know, we talked about a couple weeks
ago. If you're on sometimes this is the longest part, so just
give you know quick who you are, who you work for, and as we go
up through the show, you are more than welcome to chime in on
any of the topics. And then also you're more than welcome to
relate it back to what you do and give us a little bit more
of insight into that. That'll just keep the show moving. You
are more than welcome to raise
your hand if you're someone who is a little bit more on the shy side and we will get to you. We
got a team of people working in the background keeping us up to date on who's trying to get in,
or it's also like a roundtable discussion. You can just hop in. All we ask is that you are a
little bit polite about it. So welcome to the show everybody. We'll go around, we'll start with Rock
and then we'll move through the list here.
Good morning, everyone.
Good to be here.
So I'm Rock Zacharias.
I guess I never introduced myself, but we'll do it today.
I'm the CEO of Lunar Digital Assets,
Incubated Polygon, QuickSwap, Dozechain, a bunch of others. I'm also
co-founder of QuickSwap and on the Polygon Grants Board, the CTB and some other stuff. Mentor for
Tim Draper's Bitcoin FI accelerator, as well as a
chapter or city leader for Bitangels Los Angeles, which is
an investment and pitch network that has cities around the
world. Cheers, guys.
Amazing, amazing. And all right, we'll just go through the list
here. As I see it on my screen over the reality. Give us a
little bit about yourself and what you do.
Hey guys, I feel like I'm in the big boys club.
My name is Carmen and I'm really happy to be here.
So I am part of the Over the Reality team.
I know Darren's laughing.
I'm part of the Over the Reality team
and Over is, what is Over?
Over is a decentralized platform
and we use a model called Mac2Earn where people actually
map the physical world in 3D and get rewarded in crypto.
And I'm really looking forward to the questions and topics and hearing from the rest of the
speakers.
That sounds super exciting and I cannot wait to hear more about that.
All right, Kurt Wuckert Jr. from Gorilla Pool.
Saw you unmute there and then oh, there you go. Come on.
If you are finding yourself, Rug, and we can't hear you right now, but if you're finding yourself, Rug, and just hop down, we'll
bring you back up and then we'll get back to you. All right, Kurt.
In the meantime, Kevin Unay, CEO and founder of RWA.
Hi, everyone.
My name is Kevin Junai.
I am the founder of RWA Inc.
And we are a real world asset tokenization
and investment ecosystem.
Maybe even the largest in the world.
We don't quite know, but we are big. We have
signed more than 100 partners and growing, have more than 150 in signing and building
world's most advanced investment platform. We have already a launch pad and we're also building our
own decks. So I'm super happy to be here. Our token, by the way, is also trading on multiple exchanges.
So yeah, I'm super happy to be here
and in company with these great speakers.
That is amazing.
And congrats on potentially being the biggest RWA
in the world.
Can't wait to learn more.
All right, Marcus Devrelius great name
Thank you. Hey everyone
I Am part of story story is the world's IP blockchain
intellectual property and
You know not many people think about intellectual property as a real-world asset, but it is very much a very valuable asset class
worth trillions.
And we're bringing it on chain and making it easy to register, license, tokenize, and monetize IP.
So excited to be here, excited to get into it. And just a quick, as we move on here, everybody, give everybody up on stage a follow. This is continuing to build episode 105.
At some point, it's gonna be the biggest crypto space
in the world, so it's going to be somewhere
that people come to network and grow and meet with everybody.
So make sure you're doing that.
You can make lifelong contacts here.
My stage keeps rearranging itself,
so we'll move over to Chainlink.
Hey, everybody. Good morning, afternoon from wherever you're listening. Liam from the Chainlink team, the tokenization team specifically.
Thanks for hosting us. Very excited about the space here today.
Great to talk about RWAs, a little bit about myself.
myself. I am in the tokenization space for a little over three years and joined
I am in the tokenization space for a little over three years
Chainlink seven months ago to drive tokenization initiatives. Very excited to
hear about everyone what everyone has to say in the space. Obviously RWAs are
heating up so thanks for hosting us. Thank you for coming. You guys are
definitely right. RWAs are heating up. It seems like as we move out of a meme coin cycle,
everybody is starting to get the cobwebs out of their head and head back to what's
actually useful and going to move us really forward as an industry,
beyond what memes do with the fun and the onboarding.
Terra Nova, let's hear from you, my man.
Hi everyone.
My name is Teranova.
I'm the founder of Teranova Ventures.
I've been in this space since 2011
and frequently investing in RWA now,
especially the ones that are tokenizing debts
and of course receivables.
I'm happy to be here with all of you.
I'm happy to be with the QuickShop team.
Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you as well. Now I'm happy to be here with all of you. Happy to be with the QuickSwap team. Thanks for the opportunity.
Thank you as well. Now, I'm excited.
I learned something new every time on this show,
so I love the way we're always changing it up,
and we are happy to have some of
the brightest minds in the industry here.
We'll go over to Sud.
Hey guys, thanks for having us.
I'm Ashish. I'm working with Polytrade and the Chief Front Officer here.
At Polytrade we are basically trying to solve the problem of moving tokenized assets from one party to the other.
On the retail side we have a marketplace which has got 70 plus protocols listed. You can trade them. We also have an institutional side where we are working with
JP Morgan, Mostcard, likes of those to move, collect bank, that's from one bank together.
So really just to be here looking forward for this place. Thank you for inviting us.
Thank you. Thank you. All right. We heard from Liam from Chainlink. Okay. So we got,
Right. We heard from Liam from Chainlink.
Okay. So we got, we'll do Tim and then we'll come back over to you, Kurt.
we'll do Tim and then we'll come back over to you, Kurt.
Yo, what is good everyone?
My name is Tim and I'm a marketing assistant in DronePilot and D-Chain at GeoNet.
I'm sure some of you guys have heard of it.
We're a D-Pen project with the world's largest RTK network offering precise location accuracy.
And I'm actively in the works of learning as much as I can about
Web3 in the blockchain space and really wanted to see where it could take us in the future,
which is why I was super excited to hop on to this space and talk about RWAs. So
thank you for inviting me on. That's awesome. Can't wait to learn more about the drone piloting.
All right, Kurt, go ahead. Tell us about you. Testing. Can we hear
me now? Yes, sir. Beautiful. All right. So I'm Kurt. I've been a Bitcoiner for about 12 years now.
My background is in cybersecurity, cloud compute, entrepreneurship. I also run a mining pool and I'm in the R&D space for extremely scalable blockchain.
We work on basically Bitcoin variants.
I'm a big fan of BSV.
We're doing like million transactions per second, including full script, stack,
tokenization, et cetera.
And we help develop real world asset protocols.
And we have deployed various types of stable coins
and things for companies that need it.
Kind of the stuff that you don't hear about,
but actual underlying assets used in corporate,
essentially stable coins,
but not the kind that you would hear about publicly
because we're not working with like the Binances
of the world, but companies that use assets
for trading among larger corporations and would rather use internal blockchain,
but actual public blockchain instead of going to the bank for ACH, Swift, Wire, etc. You can do
that stuff today and do it quietly and be doing lots and lots of business that way. So we consult
on that kind of stuff. We also can do public, any kind of real world asset tokenization implementations on public
blockchain too, but I have experience in both.
So very happy to be here.
That's cool.
Doing stuff in the background is doing some of the Lord's work, right?
You don't always get the recognition, but we know that in the future, a lot of this
stuff pays off.
So that is awesome. So
again, I'm your host, Mr. Dude. I got a background in sales and
marketing and you know, been hosting spaces for like over a
year and a bit now. Been in here for about three years. This is
what I do. I'm basically good at taking a lot of information and
then just filtering it out to people. So I love learning from
the people who actually do this stuff. And if we have
anybody from the Polygon, we should give them a shout out. Polygon, one of our amazing partners
at the aggregated and LDA. You know, they're purple-pilling everybody. Their tech is so
advanced that their token has not caught up to it yet. I cannot wait to see what they
roll out with the Ag layer and the future of them. You know, I feel like we don't give
them enough credit here on the show all the time,
so I just wanted to make sure we give them a special shout out.
We appreciate being a partner with them.
So shout out to you, Polygon.
They're actually one of the first chains I used.
So they were one of my introductions into the crypto world where I did not get
rugged, so thank you for protecting me.
All right, let's hop into the topics here, guys.
Like I said earlier, feel free to just hop in,
give us your opinions.
That's kind of just like a round table,
like we're all sitting around friends.
Sometimes Rock will get argumentative with Alex,
and those are times that we all just get to sit back
and enjoy if she comes on later on.
So enjoy the show, everybody.
How do you see, all right, let's go here.
So how do you see interoperability
and cross-chain services like CCIP and the Ag layer
furthering what is possible with RWAs?
Anybody can feel free to take it away.
I can start.
I think, you know, when we talk about cross-chain
interoperability, that's obviously a topic that grows,
and we hear more and more in this space,
and specifically for RWAs.
So if you think of RWAs and you think
of what people are trying to achieve in this space,
they're essentially trying to bring traditionally
illiquid assets that are trading off-chain
in traditional finance, not trying to make them liquid by using
blockchains like Polygon and others. And so the goal here is really to bring liquidity in the space.
Now, what doesn't really work well in finance is that you basically have silos,
systems that don't really connect well together, whether it is payments, infrastructure,
you know, these systems are basically siloed, they don't really communicate well.
Obviously, you have improvements with payment networks, Swift, and so on and so forth, which,
by the way, is a great partner of ours at Chainlink. But the reason why cross-chain
interoperability is so important in the blockchain space is because if we are going to make these assets more liquid, the last thing we want to do is recreate silos.
And so you have different blockchains, different infrastructures, different networks.
All of these blockchains have great ecosystems, great liquidity, great applications built
on top of them.
But the question is, how do you make them communicate with each other so that we actually
don't recreate what is
happening in traditional finance with systems that don't communicate. That's why cross-chain
interoperability is actually critical when we talk about on-chain finance because you want
these systems to work together and you don't want to fraction your liquidity across different
ecosystems, different networks, public networks, private networks, different languages, and so on and so forth.
And then the last point on this is, as we know, this is a critical space, right?
Cross-chain, bridging, all that stuff.
We hear a lot about these topics in the news.
And so the question really is, how do you move assets and data surround these assets
safely and
securely and in a scalable way across these different networks?
So I think just to finish here, cross-chain is really essential to what we're trying to
do in the RWA space, which is bring massive liquidity on-chain and make these assets liquid
as they go on to the on-chain economy.
That makes a ton of sense. I feel like it's hard to argue anything against that
as well, right?
Like I think we all know that even just in the banking world
everything doesn't matter what bank you're with,
it all works together essentially from one bank to the next.
So go ahead, Rock, you got something there?
Yeah, Liam, can you explain for the audience what CCIP is, how it works, and
what Chainlink's vision is with this?
Yeah, without going into too much details, CCIP is our cross-chain interoperability
protocol that basically aims to connect different networks to allow
for token transfers.
So simply transferring a token, but also data attached to that token.
So as you know, Chainlink has the biggest decentralized Oracle infrastructure in the
space.
A big part of what we do is actually bring more data and attach them to tokens.
So as we think about RWAs, think of bringing funds on chain
or stable coins, which is tokenized cash essentially.
Or we talk about other use cases, gold, real estate,
all of these use cases, right?
Now, blockchain networks are not obviously inherently
connected to the real world and are not able to,
by nature, support the data
that these assets need to exist on chain.
And so our vision really is to say there is a ton of good blockchains out there and we
see more and more blockchain popping up and great blockchains to be honest. How about linking them so that everyone enjoys from that
sort of network effect where you can issue on one chain, go on another chain, and then make sure
that the data flows from one network to the other seamlessly, but most importantly, securely,
because we know that this space has been in use sometimes for the wrong reasons.
And so CCIP is really the protocol that would allow issuers
to issue assets on different chains,
link these different chains,
and make sure that any data points attached to that token,
to that smart contract,
to that on-chain representation of an asset
asset is able to flow seamlessly across these networks.
is able to flow seamlessly across these networks.
I hate to be a contrarian here, but I think what this reminds me of,
basically just having lots of blockchains that all essentially do the same thing,
like distribute data and then allow for this kind of tokenization and script,
smart contracts, that kind of thing.
It really reminds me of like the 1990s
sort of internet revolution,
or actually more like late 80s into the 90s
where basically there were lots of intranets
where people were communicating and,
hey, we're Oracle, we're Sun Microsystems,
we're whoever we think we're gonna be the ones
to define the internet.
And a lot of them had hundreds of millions or billions of dollars tied up
into trying to make their version of the internet,
like basically become the internet.
And ultimately what ended up happening is that once everybody decided on a
fundamental stack that everybody would agree to,
then it all just kind of consolidated into it. So I, I look at this and I don't say this is a bad thing for multi-chain and all that necessarily.
I think everybody is genuinely experimenting and mostly doing so in good faith. But I think
at scale, I think at some point we're all going to decide like, okay, one is the best.
And I think it'll turn into like a Pareto distribution where essentially, you know,
80 to 90% of everybody on earth will use one system.
And then there will be the 20, you know, 10 or 20% of hyper nerds or people that really,
really care about, you know, some other aspect of the tooling, we'll use this other system.
And I kind of see that the same way,
people that use Tor really, really well
for the sake of privacy.
That's a very small group of people
and most people just use the clear open internet.
But I think a lot of what we're doing here,
it's potential in here that someone in here will define
what the future will look like. But I think this concept of bridging and wrapping and making
cross-chain assets and things is something that is going to be a relic of the past, for better or
for worse. I think it's for better because ultimately I think the grand vision is what matters. But
I think that's something that not enough people are talking about. Yeah, so I'll be contrarian to your point now and say, I just don't see evidence of this. I see,
and to say that each chain is doing the same thing is ignoring that in the internet all levels of the stack, it's very modular and complex and there are very many specialized things from programming languages to like everything down the entire stack. So I'm not a dev. I can't explain it perfectly, but in the internet, there are
lots of very specialized, whatever servers, very specialized data requesting things, all
kinds of different stuff. And it isn't just one size fits all. You may for one chain want something that has incredibly low latency for gaming
in the milliseconds, but doesn't need as much security because it's not storing, you know,
Fort Knox's on chain gold or something. And our evidence so far in the industry, in whatever
15 years we've been around, 16 years, is that over time there
become more and more chains and better and better cross chain experiences.
So I think we'll have lots of chains.
I think there will be some chains that are like your kind of Pareto distribution for
certain things, but I don't see a world where we have just one chain, nor do I think that's
a good thing. Having one chain is like the main chain is a bit dangerous because that creates a target
for us to take for governments or whoever to take down.
And it creates centralization problems.
There's all kinds of issues with that.
I think part of that, like what you're describing is the application level of the internet.
Like yes, high up the stack.
There is absolutely.
I mean, you can use various types of servers,
various types of database management, networking tools
up at the top of the stack where the applications live.
But the reason that that is possible
is because the lower level of the stack,
essentially the further you go down the internet stack,
the older that it gets,
the more provenance that there is there. So some of this stuff going back again to the 1980s and 90s, where we've just said,
okay, well, like we're just going to leave TCP IP essentially alone.
Uh, and same with like IPv4 versus IPv6 communication, like IPv4 is 25 years old
or so, and there's been about a 15 year discussion about when we need to officially
go to IPv6. And that's kind of middle of the stack stuff, where you can see over the course
of 20 years that that starts to evolve. But the higher level stuff, application level, I mean,
that can change every six months, but it's only possible because those lower level foundations are
essentially set in stone. But what we see with blockchains is you're essentially building the whole stack from the bottom up.
So your base blockchain is the bottom of the stack.
And then these trading tools, the DEXs, the tokens, all of those things are the top of the stack.
But they work because the whole system, like the chain and its tools and its apps,
are essentially the entire internet
stack in that analogy. And then they can connect to each other at the top of the stack. And again,
that's totally fine. I'm not criticizing that. I'm just saying that ultimately it keeps things
siloed because again, if you're on Polygon or you're on any of these other chains and you want to do
something or the economy shifts to wanting to go another direction, then you're on Polygon or you're on any of these other chains and you want to do something or the economy shifts to wanting to go in another direction, then you have to bridge,
you have to reissue assets and these kinds of things become, they just become a user
interface nightmare.
And so ultimately, the way that I think it will play out is ultimately will agree upon
a lower level, essentially a blockchain that is like
the database that everyone else connects to. And then the application layer becomes where
there's lots of room to play. But I think we really need to standardize that lowest layer
as much as possible. If we want to get any real adoption, because I don't want to be that guy
explaining to my aunt or somebody why,
oh, hey, you need, okay, you need this wallet for this.
You need this wallet for that.
And you need this app to do, you know, here's the bridging and here's all this.
Like it just, it becomes crazy.
And I think that those things will be solved by, again, maybe somebody in this chat,
like people that have like an intrepid entrepreneurial mind to sort of consolidate
these things together in a way that makes it useful for people that aren't as technical as us.
So when you say, but you're talking about like consolidating into one chain, but what I think
the approach most of us are taking in, and this is across thousands of companies is it's okay to have lots
of different specialized chains specialized you mentioned like one
chain being the chain for all the data that doesn't really make sense to me
because different chain different applications different chains different
infra all have different data requirements A lot of data isn't even stored permanently. Some data is.
Unimportant data or if you have like some kind of Merkle proof or something, you might not need to keep the data forever.
So you just need proof that the data happened.
I don't see it working like that. What I think is probably going to happen is we just all those, you know, the complaints you had about user experience and
bridging and wrapping, you just, the user won't know about those things anymore. That'll all be
obfuscated into the background and it'll all feel like you're on one chain, but in reality you're
using 20 different pieces of infra across 20 different chains, kind of like the internet.
I don't think we actually disagree on that point. I think we may
disagree on the particulars of how we get there, but I'm essentially saying the same thing. But I
think when you talk about the danger of everything being on one database, we are talking about a
distributed database though. We're not talking about everything consolidating down to a database
that's sitting in one guy's data center, we're talking about distributed consensus at the database level, because that's what a blockchain is.
It's distributed for the sake of security.
And then you make other compromises further up the stack
for the sake of whatever you're trying to do,
scalability or interoperability or whatever.
But anyways, I don't wanna belabor this whole point.
And essentially, I don't even think we actually disagree with what the end goal looks like, but maybe the intermediate steps how
to get there.
That makes a lot of sense from what I was listening from my end, besides writing down
all this stuff I got to research.
I was like, okay, it does sound like similar side of the similar team, just a matter of
how you get there.
But Tera Nova, you've had your hand up.
Why don't you weigh in for us?
Oh yeah, actually since Rock joined, he kind of got the
point, but I'll talk anyway.
I have some certifications in user experience from the guys
who invented user experience, so the thing is I also agree that
we might end up having people who don't
even know that they're using blockchain, but you know, it all comes back to the, I guess the OGs
here remember the video of the guy buying lemonade on the desert and he had to use Metabask. That shit still happens today. And I thought we'd be over it already.
And it becomes more of a concern to me
that we still seem to be far from having maybe
that huge data availability layer that will
communicate with everyone.
Maybe the interoperability isn't good enough,
but the future seems to be, of course,
people don't know what the hell they're using
because I don't know what kind of info I'm using
when I open Twitter and then when I go to Instagram,
for instance, there isn't different databases,
they're using different stacks and everything. But in terms of
user experience, that's where I see like, adoption to me comes
when I don't even know I'm using blockchain. And that's where
comes, you know, the real users, that's where it comes to, you
know, a real world use for the technology we're
building. And that's a great, that's a great point. Like I know basically what Rock was mentioning
about, like not having to explain like to his aunt, right? Like adoption comes when you buy a movie
ticket and it's on the blockchain and you don't really know or care, right? Or like you pick up
your phone and you call someone, you don't care how it's connected. You just know that someone
picked up on the other end. And that's essentially all that
matters to, let's just say like 95% of the population, if not an even larger percentage.
Yeah, we actually have, in Brazil, we have two examples of this. We have a technology called
PIX. People that come to Brazil, they get like glad against it because PIX is a way to send money to each other in like 10
seconds, five seconds. And it's like by the central bank and it's basically
blockchain technology. It's quick, it's really quick, it's the main payment
system in the country. And another example, now coming more to the
WebTree side of the force,
we get like Lund Studios, they did a partnership with a ticket company.
And when I buy something on the ticket company,
I'm using blockchain. I just don't know it.
You know, that's the thing. That's the whole thing.
I don't need to know.
And that's a really cool point, which kind of leads in,
obviously this is an intricate discussion
for the first question,
but I'm actually learning a ton.
But I guess for the next question,
can I tokenize my house and trade it?
Like, is this realistic in practice, guys?
Is it safe in practice?
Are we super far away from it?
Are we close?
What does everybody on the panel think?
Short answer is yes.
Yes, you can.
Is it safe?
That's a business question, in my opinion.
Guys, if you don't mind,
happy to have you, to be with you guys here today.
I'm Luis Fowler of Decentral.
Answering that question, I think we go to the same problem that we're speaking about
on the infrastructure side of things.
RWA, like the word, there's like 100, 300 jurisdictions to talk about.
So you might be able to tokenize your house on a specific jurisdiction, and you might
be able to access that your house on a specific jurisdiction and you might be able to
Access that investment in another jurisdiction. So the same the same way that we still have to figure out
infrastructure side of things on blockchain we also have to
To figure out the frameworks for tokenizing assets on different kind of jurisdictions
of jurisdictions, the kind of distribution, the payment of dividends. There's a hundred of things
the kind of distribution the payment of dividends like there's a
that we still have to go through and build the user cases, try it out on different places,
try it out on different business and financial models. I would say, as Kurt said, yes, we can,
but how reliable is that if someone takes my house and I have to go to court to take my money
or like how those things play out.
I think that's the main question and I feel like still far away from having being able
to do anything, any kind of RWA on chain.
That's pretty much my...
Well, house deeds on blockchain would be, to me, much more
secure than the current system, which is city or local, state, whatever databases.
And throughout history, it was common for people's houses to be taken away from
them. And someone changes stuff in a database, there's a war, whatever, but if it was on a blockchain,
it would be much harder to do that.
I agree with you on the data standpoint,
but you have to think about that the government,
one of the main things they have is they have centralized
the use of force and to be able to ensure that either
the data on blockchain or in a book is reliable and you can actually use and hold that asset,
you have still to rely on the government to say that this is available or not.
And you always have those trust touch points that depends on a government.
Well, if you change the laws to be that you can issue a deed initially on a blockchain,
that is not...so like right now in the first iteration, and this is what Andreas Antonopoulos
talks about when he talks about infrastructure inversion.
So in the first iteration, these deeds will be...they will live in state databases, local
databases, whatever,
and then there will be like a copy of it on the blockchain kind of, or something
that's kind of considered linked to the deed. But there'll still be some paper
deed or digital deed somewhere, but eventually we'll move to natively on the
blockchain and then things will be a lot smoother and you can have more global like trade, more global ownership of things, more publicly owned things.
You could have big buildings that are owned by thousands of people. How do you steal a deed like that? property when there's 10,000 owners or it's been put into some kind of real estate ETF
on the blockchain or something.
This is what happened with phone lines and the internet.
This is an example from Andreas, but first the internet was built on top of the phone
lines and then eventually over time now phone lines are built on top of the phone lines. And then eventually over time, now phone lines are built on top of the internet,
infrastructure inverted.
Same thing with horses and roads over time.
But I see that we have Kevin has his hand up.
Yeah, I also wanna say that there are many ways
you can tokenize real estate, for instance.
You can choose to tokenize the ownership, but you can also choose to tokenize the future
cash flows of given real estate and then give out parts of that revenue from the rentals. So it's just to say that you basically look at tokenizing securities, ownership,
or you can say future cash flows and other utilities. So you could do both. Yeah. Yeah.
You could have different. There are many options and I want to say overall that we are in a perfect
storm now where deregulation is high on the agenda in the US and many other
jurisdictions.
So I foresee that we will see a much smoother transition into also the tokenization of securities
over the next months, actually.
So I think as an industry, we are very lucky to have that movement from the US.
And I'm super excited about seeing what's going to happen, because if the regulation
eases on the securities, we will be seeing much more traction towards tokenizing real
world assets.
And also, people would be much more calm
in investing into these assets.
But I agree, it's complicated.
And I foresee that we see NFT technology
taken over on many of the documents.
And of course also integration to the public databases to really verify everything,
but it's not easy to do these things.
Same with commodities, you also have to have physical things in place to check that everything is in order and so on.
But we have basically all the elements, right?
We have satellite pictures so we can DD from above the real estate.
If it's there, validate that.
We can do many things with 3D technologies and inspections.
So I think it's very, very early.
It's going to take years before everything is 100% diligent, but it's definitely something
we're preparing from our own side and it's an incredible journey to be on.
Decentral.
Yeah, perfect.
I agree 100% with you, Rock, and also with Kevin.
My main point here is we do have some things in place that we can evolve from.
I think that infrastructure inversion is something very real.
For instance, in Brazil, I don't know much of you guys know about it, but we have one
of the most advanced tokenized infrastructures, not infrastructures, like technical infrastructures
to tokenize assets in Brazil.
I can actually, what we do today is we make invoice factoring for the creative economy.
And I can tokenize it with a license that I have and sell tokens that are actually verifiable
backed by a credit bill minted by the government.
So that's one step. And we can go increasingly having everything more secure,
verifiable for anyone in any place in the world.
And I think that's the main goal, you know?
And I completely agree with you, Rock.
It's just a matter of like, it's very hard, you know,
like to get to this point, takes a lot of time,
takes a lot of legal efforts, takes a lot of regulations, takes a lot of legal efforts, takes a lot of regulations, takes
a lot of study and data availability and stuff like that.
I just wanted to point out, I think to talk about real estate as a tokenized asset or
any other tokenized asset, I think the template has already been set by companies like Tether
or by Circle, the issuer of USDC.
Like if you just look at like the pamphlet version
of their business model anyways,
it's the same for any other asset.
You just like you have various attestations
of the existence of the real asset
and then you issue those tokens in a way that is,
transparent and verifiable.
This is why I say the pamphlet version.
I don't know that Tether is necessarily transparent and verifiable, but, uh, the,
the version of it that they sell, like, Hey, yes, we have these bank accounts.
Money goes in, when money goes in, we issue tokens, the tokens exist.
And then when people cash the token out, it comes back out of the bank account.
Um, it's, it's a similar thing with any kind of, of any kind of asset.
I mean, this could be oil, diamonds, sugar, houses, whatever.
There is a way to create an attestation of the existence of the asset and then tokenize
it and then allow it to be traded as various types of derivatives or whatever else.
That's actually a very good point. So we're talking about real estate tokenization and
stable coins, which are tokenized
cash essentially.
And I think you're raising a really good point here, Kurt, which is how do you actually verify
that whatever is being tokenized, if we're talking about a real world asset, so not a
crypto native asset that was born on the blockchain that lives on the blockchain, but how do you
verify that a real world asset actually exists off chain?
Right.
So we can talk about commodities like precious metals, gold, we can talk about
real estate, we can talk about the state of real estate. And again, that brings me back
to the point of how do you verify that on chain, given that a blockchain doesn't inherently
connect to the off chain world. We have a tool that is actually really interesting for any
real world asset issuer, which is called proof of reserve, which essentially solves that problem. So as a decentralized Oracle infrastructure,
we basically connect to the off-chain reserves or whatever asset is being tokenized, right?
And through our decentralized Oracle network, we then create a proof of reserve contract that
proves the reserves or the collateral of any assets that is being tokenized. So that not only that
data is now transparent and verifiable on chain in real time,
but also that makes that data composable.
Because putting data on chain is not necessarily hard,
but the question is how composable is that data
and what can be done with that data
and who can reuse that data,
namely DeFi applications, protocols, and so on.
So Proof of Reserve is really an amazing tool for issuers
to actually prove that
whatever is being tokenized is collateralized and exists in the real world. That's awesome and
crucial. It's got to be done right in order for any of the rest of it to be done right. 100%.
And we like to say, you know, truth over trust. So you can trust us or you can verify that what we're saying is true, right? And
you can verify that in real time.
Yeah, our space definitely needs a lot more of that for sure. Over the reality.
Yeah, thank you. I wanted to jump in. I for so for you for the answer to your question,
what are our will real estate be tokenized or whatever?
Yes.
But from a different perspective, I wanted to say this.
Every time I come onto the space, any space, and you get speakers going deep into the weeds
discussing things, I'm really genuinely pleasantly amused.
And I mean this with the most kind perspective.
The reason why is because in the 80s or 70s, and I'm going to go to what Kurt started
to say in the beginning, if in the 70s while I was in school and somebody were to say,
do you think in the future humans would be able to talk to each other across waters and lands and like whatever?
And we'd be like, no.
However, so here's the thing, follow me guys.
So we're here, we're using social media apps to communicate and we get to. Never before has there been a time in web 3 where there's
transparency among projects and brands and we get access to these co-founders and CEOs that get to
actually share their roadmap, that get to actually tell, give us alpha on what's going on and never before in history have just like regular people have a say in it
and can share their insights. So when I go back to that question in the 70s and you know
that question, do you think humans will be able to? Well think about it. We would say
yes, but if you were a futurist, I mean we would say what? No. Like what's that even?
Like computers were mainframe.
We never had like desktop computers.
3D printing was, nevermind, we were still on landline.
We never even had like a smartphone.
Like being able to carry very, very powerful computers
in our hands and being our own broadcast journalists.
And like, what is that?
So what I wanna kind of remind people is trust the process. Like, I always think about Bruce Lee, like, what is that? So what I want to kind of remind people is trust the process.
Like I always think about Bruce Lee, like be like water.
Like I'm not young, but I've seen time and time again, how humanity and
technology somehow just works, whether there's all of these, you know, like
challenges and back and forth.
So in the seventies, when you asked this question,
here we are today in 2025.
So they had to lay out the infrastructure.
There was like, what is it?
Telephone companies,
the Ma Bell companies that were
monopolized and then they got demonopolis.
And then they had to lay out
the fiber optics and the satellites.
Now we have cell towers.
You get what I'm talking about, right?
It's exciting times to see how the future unfolds. And what's more important is it's amazing how we
get to speculate and talk about how all this is going to work out. But from my perspective,
now, okay, I'm talking from my personal digital femme opinion
This is not a over the reality thing. Like I don't know what they're but so I'm just gonna say that
digital femme opinion
Yeah, the one that's doing
This is not an over the reality this is just like the my my these tweets are posts on my own
But that's what I just want to kind of like, kind of like share. Like I love hearing what everybody's saying, but I just smile because can you imagine
if we were, if we were to take this space in the seventies and Kurt was to say his point
of view and Kevin and, and Terra Nova and Liam would be in the same spot. So to me it's
like, I'm just smiling. I'm trusting the process. And so yeah, like everything will be tokenized.
How will we get there?
I have no idea, but it's just gonna work.
It's where it's aiming at.
That's my opinion.
Yeah, I'm a permanent human optimist.
I think whenever people present problems,
I just always expect that humans will solve it.
We're incredibly good at solving problems.
Like it's amazing the things that we do.
I mean, you were talking about,
would people believe that you'd be able to have
a conversation with, there's how many people?
400 on the space right now?
How many people, how many, you know,
what would people think if you told them,
you know, 50, 100 years ago that you'd be able to have a conversation live with people from all over the world.
You could be in bed, you could be, I'm walking outside right now in the sun.
And then the same thing with real estate, you know, someday we'll look back and go,
oh, people never would have imagined that your house could be owned by thousands of
people that you don't even know, but it
would be good for you because it would be like a liquidity event for you in owning the
house and yeah, it's going to be a, we're going into incredible times when you combine
what we're doing here in web three, new energy, like fusion, quantum computing, AI. I think we really, I think it's, we could go into a time of true abundance.
And there'll always be competition.
They'll never be like, no one will ever be satisfied.
Because once you have all the things that you think you need, you'll want something
more, right?
Then it'll become who owns the most planets or like spaceships or something. But at least everybody will have kind
of all the stuff they need to live a good life.
Yeah, that's an amazing point. And I guess like a little pop
culture reference, we are actually past the date that was
listed in Back to the Future, right? So we've actually passed
that and think of everything we have accomplished.
And I mean, I'm 38. I'm an 86 baby. I remember my teachers saying like you'll never have a calculator in your phone. You got to learn all this mental math.
I have more power in my hand than landed on the moon. So like that we have come a long way. We will continue to go even further.
But some of Rock's points brought up a great next question.
So tokenize everything has become the rallying cry, but is there, is there a
natural limit, what kind of assets truly benefit from tokenization?
Pokemon cups.
That's a good one.
And now we got Bruno here from Polygon.
So tokens. So this is a little bit,
I'm gonna be a history nerd for a minute.
Tokenized assets over the last thousand years
are consistently the most valuable assets globally
in the entire world, both liquid and illiquid.
And most of that is cash,
but cash remember is a tokenized representative
of the existence of some other asset.
Even fiat currency today, each note is serialized
and it's a serialized debt note,
which is itself a token for a certain amount of debt
that you can use to rotate inside your own economy.
So I think tokens, like we think about them as this
technological innovation and they kind of are, but it was a technological innovation of
like a thousand years ago. Banking exists to create a reserve asset that everybody agrees has value
and then issue derivatives of that. And those derivatives are tokens. Most of them are just physical, at least traditionally, but I think everything
can be tokenized and I think we are now that data is money. I think data and money are the same
thing. They are something with an intrinsic value that has low friction and can be used globally.
I think that becomes the new underlying asset
of whatever is to come in the future.
And so I think getting tokenization right,
like making sure that it is extremely scalable
so that every bit and byte of data can be tokenized
and valued and used as money,
like that's what I'm here for.
So I am bullish on literally trillions of dollars in value being unlocked that is
currently stuck in data silos.
And you know it, each one of you has a valuable data profile that is being sold by data brokers
that are, that are taking our data right now from X and selling it to whoever wants it.
And we, we don't have access to it because we don't have a low friction way
to get access to the value of that data but this technology where we're talking
about blockchain tokens unlocks that power and it allows us to have equity in
our data that would otherwise be ignored and is only making other people rich.
So yeah just to answer the question I believe it was which assets are going to be are going to benefit best from
tokenization. I really want to say bonds and debts are going to
really, you know, you know, benefit the most just because of
like the automation of the smart contracts. You know, also, of
course, real estate, I mean, that's going to definitely be another key player.
And then also like, private equity and like, venture capital
are probably going to benefit the best out of everything.
Okay.
What about something like sports franchises?
You know, that's actually kind of interesting that you mentioned
that I've actually come across multiple platforms that are tokenizing, you know, not just the sport franchise, but the actual individual players, which I find kind of interesting.
And the idea behind actually, you know, tokenizing the player themselves is that they're able to tokenize their themselves or fan base the merchandise.
organize themselves, their fan base, the merchandise, actual investment into the player themselves.
So like as they continue to progress and grow and become more valuable in the leagues, you
know, people can actually benefit and earn, you know, income off of these players as they
get traded, you know, as they, you as they just grow within the industry. But yeah, sports,
absolutely.
That's a cool point because Boston Celtics just sold for like six and a half billion
dollars today, right? So there is one instance, but then if we flip over to Europe, like I
know Barcelona FC is actually owned by the fans, right? So then I guess if they tokenize,
I guess essentially the shares,
now you can actually have a way more transparent idea of what's going on and the value increase.
But that's a great point, Richard. Imagine even individual athletes. Think about investing
in somebody as they're recruited into college. They don't have a way to be earning money
in a lot of circumstances because of the way that college sports and payment works. But imagine if you could have a college athlete tokenize and they're getting
some income off the tokenization of the future of their career. Like there's there's a big
opportunity to really disrupt that too.
Well, the wild part about that is that it's already happening. Like people are literally
already tokenizing athletes and college students
Awesome. I think I've come across like three or four different
Platforms that are tokenizing these sports athletes and that's just like hitting in the bit angels event
but yeah
Should that be this is a funny one, but
I love this idea.
Man, you can go so many places with this.
Like, early musicians.
Imagine if you
were one of the people that found an early
musician. There's been some
that I was huge fans of
before they got big, and then when they get big I'm all proud
and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I found
this person who was showing them to people when they were unknown.
Imagine now if at that time I could have thrown 20 bucks into a token of that person and then
to help fuel their early career because I'm more passionate than some maybe producer or
someone who is maybe more looking at it from a monetary standpoint, but I'm
passionate about it.
Now you get the hive mind involved and you can kind of almost like leverage.
It's like almost like a form of leverage to propel their career and then you get a piece
of it.
God, you'd have the ultimate loyal fan, right?
Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, at the same time, I mean,
a lot of these musicians, these young athletes,
just like Kurt was saying is that they
don't have money early on.
I mean, the potential that they could actually reach,
unfortunately, sometimes comes with money.
Like, they got to have money to go to different events,
different shows. They got to be able to handle the circuit. And without money, they can't travel
cross country to go to these different shows to get that exposure and awareness. So yeah.
Yeah. I want to say that we actually just signed with Travis, which is the market leader in this
area. So anyone who wants to see the deal flow, please reach out to us. the Do you have a after you're finished speaking if you can find us a tweet about that put it in the jumbotron?
Okay, we will raise with the founder and do some some sweets there for sure. Oh
guys, uh
If we're talking about that kind of stuff. Well, I'm a client of the central
They're here in space and that's exactly what they're doing. Wow. I took as a client. Okay, they they I invest. I mean, in 2022.
I cashed out a lot of crypto, right. And I started investing
private credit in Brazil. Yeah. And to sell that private credit.
It's very, very old. Okay and then Decentral came in and said okay guys look that's
what we're doing we're tokenizing private credit in Brazil for creators not only creators but also
athletes and musicians so these guys right here they have contracts with the biggest artists in Brazil, like football players and musicians as well.
They have a, I don't know how far I can say without they having to kill me, but it's pretty
big.
And one of the things that I'm very, very anxious that they launch and it's on their
roadmap is actually tokenizing equity of artists,
YouTubers, musicians and everything. They're about to do that and it's amazing. I've been
investing a lot. I'll let them talk about this, but they do have airdrop coming on for those investing with like an 18% APY on UST.
It's amazing.
So if Kevin can show, I can show too.
Yeah, and we really should speak more, right?
Because there's so many amazing partners here and so many synergies.
So we should definitely do more of these AMAs together with this strong group.
Yeah, man.
Thank you for the chill, Terra.
And also, Kevin is one of our partners.
We actually have a space today later on with RWA Inc.
So great guys.
And speaking about the creative economy, I think that's like actually giving a step back
about tokenizing assets.
I think the first thing is let us
have the assets that are available to a few people today accessible to everyone anywhere
in the world.
I think that's stage one.
Let me buy Japanese stock or private credit from Germany or anything like that on-chain.
I think that's great.
And the second one is how can we find new ways to work on those assets using blockchain technology? And like on our side here, what we're doing
is tokenizing athletes is great, but how can I get their data to actually assess if they're
going to be a good asset to be tokenized? So we started with private credit. Nobody
gives credit or invoice factoring for
the creative economy. All around the world, it's pretty hard to understand them. So we
said, okay, we give you credit and you give us all your data. So now I have a positive
cash flow business generating revenue and profits that I can tokenize and put on chain. But I'm also gathering data from thousands of artists,
musicians, artists, KOLs from all over the place.
And like in six months time, I can assess who those,
who they are, like growing on Twitter or Instagram
or how is the revenue going on?
And then I can tokenize them and then like put anyone to invest in the IPO, the equity.
That's something that's accessible
to very few people today.
So it's, I think that's just sums it up, you know?
Yeah, I love the idea of being able to tokenize everything.
It really depends on who is going to be that first person or
to open the gateway on depending on what type of asset you want to try to trade. You know,
someone mentioned earlier about trading Pokemon cards and I love the idea of that because
with the amount of people that are trying to scalp Pokemon cards, people fighting them
in the stores, I think an absolute great way to
implement that and tokenize that. We have that on Polygon through Courtyard, so they take Pokemon
cards in, other and other assets, and then they uh store them uh in a Brinks Vault and then give you
a token representative in NFT yeah I think I
saw that I was trying to do as much research as possible I saw like some
vending machines giving out cards I definitely have to take a look into that
speaking of Pokemon cards we gave out some what's that I said don't you'll spend all his money. We actually gave out some Pokemon cards,
some quick swap polygon Pokemon cards at ETH Denver. That was pretty cool. Do we
have any tweets showing those Darren? Yeah I'll find one I'll pin up. Cool. And
also guys just quickly as we head into the second hour,
then we'll get over to over the reality.
So I had your hand up.
There is the LDA and Tesseract treasure hunt going on right now.
So the three thousand dollar treasure awaits.
Make sure you guys check that out.
That has been up top. That is an amazing one.
It's got a lot of our partners in there.
So make sure you guys check that out.
Who doesn't love easy money, especially in this time?
Also, shout out to Rock today. He'll be joining us, or he'll be joining
the BLI panel. So they'll be talking about the legalities in Web 3. You can read the
little blurb about him there. We won't pump his tires too much on the show here.
If you don't mind, Mr. Dude, that's actually,, this is actually a really interesting event and panel that
he's going to be on.
It's actually with Global Summit and his panel is actually going to be moderated by the ambassador
of Bermuda, which is quite interesting, but it's the Blockchain Legal
Group Institute Summit on SRO Sandboxes and Economic Zones.
Yeah, it's actually going to have quite a few pretty amazing people speaking in there.
But yeah, I'd highly recommend if you have the time this afternoon or evening to check
it out.
I appreciate you guys shouting me out.
Yeah, there's some other big speakers going to be there. I keep forgetting. I probably should
know better, but I know Hester Pierce will be there. Crypto Mom, then now the SEC chair.
Who else? Gosh, I forgive it. There's some really big names going to be there that I'm honored to be speaking.
It's mostly like regulatory and politics conference, virtual conference, with obviously a big focus on crypto.
That's awesome. I will definitely be tuning in to take more notes and then have way more research to do over the weekend instead of playing with my children, of course, right?
But we also have a couple of new people up here. So why don't we introduce Bruno? Why don't you introduce yourself real quick? And then Kate, we'll get you to introduce yourself as well.
Yeah, hey. So I'm Bruno. I'm at Polygon. I lead dogfooding and dev rel for Dapp developers.
And I'm mostly excited about the technical and infrastructure side of things of what
all of this makes possible. I mean, all of this tokenization of real world assets,
it's obvious, it makes sense.
We've been playing with it since we launched modular NFTs
back in 2021 as a data structure for these exact assets
so that you can put things into things and so on.
But what's really exciting here is that
with whatever we've got cooking at Polygon,
this specifically Aglayer,
you're really unlocking some more,
well, let's say value generation opportunities for these assets across the board.
So you can imagine people getting loans based on the,
I don't know, real estate records they have on another chain,
but since it's all connected via Agri, you can just transparently and seamlessly read it from another chain that's focusing maybe on these specific loans.
So by trustlessly connecting this infra and this real world, old world with the new world,
I think we're unlocking some really exciting opportunities.
I'm happy to be here for it.
Good to see you, Bruno.
Yeah, welcome. Welcome to the stage, man. Thanks for introducing yourself there. I like to do like the flex too about the, you know, I've been doing the modular NFTs since 2021. Well done.
I like that. And Kate, why don't you give us a little bit
about yourself here?
Thank you for coming on.
Hey, hey everybody.
Sorry I was late, I was doing some work stuff.
I am Kate, I work with Blockworks.
I write the drop.
It's a daily newsletter covering all things web three,
including all things consumer crypto,
NFTs, gaming wallets, all the things.
So that's a bit about me.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for being here.
And just for anybody new to the stage,
by all means hop in, chime in on anything.
You can put your hand up if that makes you feel more comfortable.
It's no problem.
We will get around to you.
But also if you are comfortable hopping into conversations,
find that little spot to squeeze in
and make sure you get your points across.
All right, we're here to have a good time.
And we're also here for a long time.
It's a nice three hour show.
So while we also have a T-Rise,
before we move on any more questions,
why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Yeah, I'm Eduardo here, the CTO representing T-Rise.
We can tokenize anything anywhere.
It doesn't mean that we will do it. We're looking into tokenizing high quality assets, and we just
launched our first deal. Basically putting our flag on
the moon. It's a new construction project that is
financed through our platform and investors from the US can
invest in this new piece of real estate that is going to be
built in Canada. It's a pleasure to be here. Nice. Good job. I'm also from Canada.
So well done to our sovereign state, not the 51st state.
And why don't we move on to Porf K of Mantra.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hello. I'm the CSO at Mantra chain.
I've been with the project since 2020
when we launched, in the DeFi summer.
We even have a pool on quick swap from the old days.
And I think it even like automatically switched
from Matic to Paul, it was pretty amazing.
Anyways, what is Mantra chain?
Mantra chain is the RWA L1.
We are built on the Cosmos SDK.
And we trade on pretty much everywhere where you can find us,
including Binance, OKX, Coinbase International,
and the Perps, et cetera, also Kraken, whatnot.
We are here primarily as a tokenization chain. What does that mean?
We don't necessarily tokenize things ourselves, but we are the ledger of record for tokenization
services. What they have been doing with our chain is they have been tokenizing Dubai real estate real estate and so I just wanted to jump in and I heard people talking about putting
deeds on chain that is indeed what is happening in the UAE and it is an
amazing thing to see forward-looking governments embracing blockchain
technology because indeed if once we put the deeds on the chain, then
actually they're much more secure assets and people can be landed and own that property
and be assured that they own that property in perpetuity. Even if the government gets
overthrown or if whatever government happens in terms of wars and whatnot, there'll be
a record.
And I think that's really, really important as we see as the world is changing politically
all over the world.
People need to have a record which is not, can't be tampered with, let's say it that
way, of their ownership of land.
That's like a fundamental right.
We're getting to the point where we can enshrine that on the blockchain.
Then once that happens across jurisdictions, not just the forward thinking ones, but our
everyday normal European and North American countries. Just imagine what that unlocks.
I mean, it's really, really exciting.
That's a, that's really cool.
Especially the way that you put it as well.
I'll have to write an email to our, to our new prime minister and get them to put
Canada on the, on the blockchain there.
Yeah.
I mean, there's places in the U S and in Brazil, which are like I think, Wyoming, counties in Wyoming
and provinces in Brazil that have experienced with, that have experimented with putting
deeds on the blockchain, but not like an entire country like what's happening now.
Hey, I got a question.
I got a while I have you here, take advantage of this.
So Mantra, I invested in a long time ago three four years ago and
never sold always held it and
Then I find out you guys did a token conversion and that the window has closed to convert the tokens
so me as a long time I
guess loyal holder and I
Found out that my tokens are kind of useless.
Is there some way to convert these after the fact?
Yeah, you can DM me how that process works.
Is that basically if you can prove that you've held the token since then,
then we can have a discussion about setting you up with the mantra address and whatnot. the same wallet for four years. Yeah, three, four years. So you could just DME and I'll point
you to the right person on TG to take care of that. No problem. Awesome. Cool. Cool to hear.
Good stuff from Mantra. Appreciate that. Yeah, no problem. I mean, quick swap and polygon are kind
of our, uh, the reason why, uh, part of the big reason why we exist. I mean, like I said, we had
a, like a very early pool and quick swap and still have it there. And also we were an early
validator on polygon. Yeah, I think without polygon going on
the epic run that it did from one cent to whatever was 250 or
whatever, I don't think we would have existed. Because we
certainly were lucky enough to be a validator in the early part of
Awesome. Yeah, I mean I I learned about you from you know, just quick swap polygon community people told me
Hey, this is really cool. Look into it
one of my close friends
Who's really smart told me you definitely got to get some of this
I said hey just to kind of cuz I don't really buy trade tokens or anything
But just to kind of support him and he was in it and he really was passionate about it
I said, alright, I'll buy some it's hard in the industry to keep track of your own
Portfolio it's almost like, you know
You can write a few angel text but you really can't be expected to keep up with like all the tokens swaps and the rebrands and the
switching from this chain to that chain and like whatever yeah, we did it with quick swap to we did a re denomination
Because at the peak the the token was worth like 1600 per coin
It was just too crazy, but yeah
but we did this re denomination a little bit like a
Stock split which I'd be a lot more scared to say in the older days of Gensler, but
Now I think we have a little regulatory cover and I mean whether it's its shares or equity
Which I don't think it is but but whether it is or not the same the concept remains that
People like things that look cheap. That's why Tesla has split so many times the that Yeah, like it was, you know, 1500 bucks or 2000 bucks. And then now it's a hundred bucks or something.
I don't know.
Yeah.
It's just, you know, it's the old trick.
Like people like to buy the things that look cheap, you know?
So if we have a Berkshire Hathaway,
we should make a Berkshire B so that the people
feel like they're early or something.
But that wasn't the reason why we did our
re-denomination. We actually found something wrong in the initial smart
contract code so that's why we wanted to like switch it to the one we're
currently using for our ERC 20. Nice well it's great to see you guys have been on
a pretty pretty strong run lately. Gosh you guys were like top I don't even
probably 600 or something and now you're top what 20 or 40 or something?
I top 30 at the moment. I think we were as low as maybe top 8,000
or something.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Cool. Cool success story. I guess I'm glad I
held all this time.
The key is just keep your finance listing, you know, I mean, if
you've made it to finance, then you always have a chance.
And that's really for us, the key was pivoting to RWA.
Not that we weren't involved with RWA originally.
It's just that as you know, like in 2020,
you couldn't raise money for an RWA project.
So you had to cast it in the light of like DeFi or Polkadot or
an AMM or something like this. And we came up at the same time you guys came up. We were
raising in 2020. And so we had to be the project that people wanted to see at that time. And
that's what we went and built. And then it turned out, you know, in 2022 that there was too many of those kinds
of things.
And so we look for the pivot and the RWA L one was the pivot.
It's always what we wanted to do.
And we were just lucky enough to be early on this.
It looks like at this particular point in the market.
Well, all it took was Larry Fink saying we're going to token, you know, the CEO
of the largest asset manager in the world saying that we're going to tokenize
everything. I guess that's all it takes.
Yeah. Uncle Larry and also the ETF, right?
Once you see the Bitcoin ETF, then you know that tokenization is coming for
everything. I mean, I think yesterday we saw what Pungu the in the meme coin and NFTs tokenized
So I mean returned into ETF so if the industry is coming that hard into
ETFs with with digital assets and they're definitely gonna go hard into tokenization. So
Yeah, I guess ETFs were like the original tokenization
models in a way right because you were tokenizing gold with some digital token it wasn't a web
three token but yeah even today it's a lot of funds that are getting tokenized right
or would you say that social security was the original tokenization model
nice I guess that is a fund yeah an early fund sorry I just had to throw that one no
that was a good one that was well I mean you say Larry Fink saying that we're gonna tokenize
everything and you know we did you know talk about tokenizing sports players and human beings and I just man it's just such an easy transition from
like social security numbers that tokenizing it you know just in my opinion I did want
to jump on that tokenized player contracts train you guys were talking about. We are actually onboarding onto our EDM side a project
like that which is in Lantam where they tokenize not like the high level people going to the
Premier League or whatever but the lower level guys contracts. Because it's not controlled
by FIFA you can actually tokenize those fully. It's really quite
interesting and then you can kind of trade them like real people who play on
these teams you can kind of trade their cards as NFTs and you get a piece of
their long-term earnings and then if they get a transfer fee or something
like that I think that is so cool. What does this mean for securities laws?
Because like by the Howey test,
kind of the definition of a security if you tokenized a player, right?
But it seems so ridiculous to make it conform to those regulatory guidelines.
That would be a real setback for the world, I think.
And I think what this really tells me the whole like securities discussion with crypto is
crypto democratized finance and opened up finance to everyone and like not just the little guys of America
The little guys in America, but also someone in Nigeria or anywhere that doesn't even have a bank account
We noticed with quick swap and polygon in the early days
Most of our traffic was coming from third world countries because the fees were so cheap
it was really a place for the people the average trade size in our early days
where unit swap on a theory in the average trade size was 10,000 our
average trade side size was $50 and we frequently saw $2 trades 50 cent trades
I mean we would I would watch the block
explore and it'd be like fifty cents, two dollars, twenty dollars, a hundred dollars
and this was before there were any bots on polygon. This was the very early days
so there weren't there wasn't this in more advanced arbitrage and bots and
things in the world. These were real people in Nigeria you know that had a
couple bucks trying to make a trade to change their life.
Yes, it's very interesting.
Our chain also doesn't have bots yet, so we have like one meme coin in it.
And it's interesting to look on deck screen or to see like the people trading that one
meme coin to make quite a lot of profits for this site.
It's amazing.
I mean, so what does that tell us about securities though? Quite a lot of profits for this. It's amazing. I
Mean, so what does that tell us about securities though that I think one of the great things about crypto is securities laws
just went too far and
things like accredited investor laws went too far and they excluded the majority of people from
Investing or at least early stage investing you had to have a bank account to get you know a Charles Schwab you know account you had
to have like you had to pass some KYC and multiple things but now you can be
as long as you can get access to a phone once in a while you don't even need
access all the time. If I could go on my get on get close to an internet
source and I'm in Nigeria,
and I have a $10 or a throwaway or phone
that someone threw away in another country.
I just, if once every month or even a year,
I could get to an internet source
and then buy a little Bitcoin, it changes the world.
And I think it makes us have to question
these securities laws, because if we don't require
someone that has a that tokenizes their music or tokenizes their their athleticism, if we
don't make those securities, if then and if we make meme points, not securities, then
you open up all these weird loopholes and then you get like, why not just have like
Google or some, you know, maybe it wouldn't work on that scale but have some company when they go live just
issue shares but call them a meme coin and then you get around these securities
laws so what that tells us is really there shouldn't be different rules for
different maybe there should be but maybe you don't want to have different
rules for different things and we just need to loosen the original all these
securities and accredited investor laws because we're going into a global market. And maybe it's an okay thing to
let people learn and trust that people are smart enough to make the right decisions and that they
don't need to be babysat by the government or excluded from investing because they're too stupid.
Right. And Robinhood offers some investing, right? Like there are like consumer facing apps that let people invest and you can trade without
needing a license as an individual person.
My take on this is just- Well, you can't get on Robinhood without an
ID or a license or not a trading license.
So are you saying you don't want KYC?
Is that your argument?
Well, that wasn't my argument, but that's an argument I would make for various reasons.
I think it's invasive to our privacy.
But the point I was making is that many people in the world, maybe half of the world, don't
have IDs.
They don't have bank accounts.
And so we are opening up all of these systems of finance and investing and equity and real estate and Pokemon cards to
people all over the world.
And you know what?
We do just fine in crypto not needing to KYC to use quick swap.
Why is it such an important thing for these other institutions?
And maybe this will force the hand of America and other governments and institutions that hey if you are too
Overbearing on your your customers or your citizens. They will just trade elsewhere in another system or another country
Yeah, I mean the challenge too is is that like some folks in those countries get flagged more often than Americans for
Various things like I have a friend in South Africa, his account was flagged.
He had to go through all this verification with Coinbase
and basically had to argue with them for like a month
in order to just get access to his account.
So I understand that's like a huge challenge.
I think my take is just that like,
we do need people to be educated
because yes, there are lots of smart people in this space
But there are also a lot of people that are not very educated and they don't know really how any of this works
They don't understand the risk. So I do think it is still someone's responsibility to
Piece fully agree
Go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say because every every time there's like another shit coin, right? That like rugs people. Everyone's like, oh no. And it's like a certain
point it's like, yeah, but like, whose fault is it? Right? Is it the coin creators fault?
Yes. Is it the people's fault for buying it? Yes. But also, it's I mean, if we're bringing
crypto into this more mainstream way, people don't understand how it works.
People don't understand how any of it works.
So I just think we have to educate people and that if we have all these different platforms,
that the platforms offer education so that people can trade things and understand that
there's a chance they could lose all their money.
I don't even know if it should be the risk.
I'm big on personal accountability and I don't know if we should like make the government or companies that are providing a service
Have to educate people
I think there is plenty of information on the internet for you to educate yourself if you want to I know by the way
I agree the education point but look if you wanted someone to learn let's let's use an example like
Basketball if you wanted someone to learn how to play basketball
You wouldn't bar them from playing basketball by saying you're not tall
enough or smart enough. No, I'm not advocating for any bands at all. Yeah, I'm just talking
about, I'm not talking about your that, I'm talking about the way we do it now
with investing, which is you bar people from investing because you say they're
not smart enough with these accredited investor laws and then we hope that
people learn. But what we're really doing is we're bubble wrapping everyone
and making them reliant on government and all these rules
so that they don't actually learn.
If you wanted someone to learn basketball,
you wouldn't bar them from playing basketball.
You'd tell them, go play basketball.
You're going to get your shit beat out of you.
You're going to lose at first.
And then you're going to learn, right?
That's how you learn.
So I think we should let people learn how to invest by investing.
And I actually, while I don't like a lot of this meme coin stuff, and when I was speaking
on stage at East Denver in between Kevin O'Leary and Donald Trump Jr., I said that I thought
a lot of this stuff was a cancer on our industry, the way that current iterations of it, the
pump and dump stuff, and everyone cheered. While I say that, I actually don't think that it
should be illegal. I think people should be allowed to do
it. But you know, they should learn from it, right? And they
are people. If you get burnt enough times, you learn. Touch
the stove too many times and you're going to stop touching
the stove, hopefully.
Yeah, I think the KYC piece is like a separate argument because
you know, the government would probably, I think the KYC piece is like a separate argument because, you know, the government
would probably argue that we have KYC so that people don't do tax evasion.
Like there are many reasons why like KYC exists.
I'm not advocating really like for against it, but I just think like that, like you could
argue that's like permissioned trading, but like you don't have to go get a license to
trade on Robinhood.
You can just open the app and toss in your stuff and then get started.
And I know Bitcoin ATMs have tried to tackle that challenge of banking the unbanked.
And I know it's an ongoing challenge, even in countries where electricity is not always
reliable.
So even if you have an ATM, like what if the ATM's not working?
Cause you don't have any power in like half your town.
That is definitely a thing.
But yeah, super interesting chat.
And yeah, I think it's a little more complicated
than just letting everyone do whatever they want anonymously.
I know that's like a big part of crypto's ethos,
but I do think that for mass adoption, there has to be some checks in place.
The thing is there are already checks in place on the other side on the asset owner side that they are tokenizing. So it's kind of doubling the efforts in there.
So what regulation or checkpoints do you not want?
What regulation or checkpoints do you not want?
On the investor side, I think it should be easier for the investors,
as in if the asset is, if it's a security token is put on chain
and it went through all this diligence,
why does it have to do all of another set of lots of diligence
on the investor side as well?
It should be easier.
I'm not saying it should completely be dropped, everything on the investor side.
But I mean, lots of stuff is done twice in my opinion.
Everybody makes a lot of points.
And just because we're at the 1230 mark
and we do have another guest that's hopped up here.
So speaking of real world assets,
we actually have the Rogue Bunnies up here.
So why don't you introduce yourself Rogue Bunnies,
tell us a little bit about you
and then we can hop back into the discussion here.
Did you say real world assets?
Yeah, I meant a bit pronounced assets there, but.
Yeah, I think you did.
Thanks for that.
Hi guys, thanks for having me on.
My name's Victoria and I am CEO of Gatefold Labs
and Rogue Bunnies is our project.
And we've expanded now to the Mansion Society
because we are moving into real world location in Las Vegas
where we're creating an events property and a hub
for the Rogue Bunnies.
And the Rogue Bunnies, for those who don't know,
are legacy playmates that have come together
to own their IP and access their community on their own terms away from Playboy who,
you know, has obviously changed hands since Hugh Hefner passed away.
So I'm loving this conversation about real estate and tokenizing and all this stuff because
I think that's really important going forward.
I would love to have the mansion being owned by 10,000 different people and tokenizing that way.
I think that would be amazing. I think people want that.
So I love this kind of thing.
And if you own more than call it 2% of the mansion or 1% of the mansion, you get special privileges.
Well, you get a membership.
We're selling memberships.
It's not an overnight.
Oh, wait, you really are doing this?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I missed that.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Nice.
Yeah, so selling memberships and having it tied into that,
that would be amazing to be able to do that.
But anyways, hopefully you'll bring
liquid NFTs up because I'm working with them specifically for our event that's
happening in Vegas which Rock and you guys up here are invited to during the
Bitcoin conference in May. So we're having our epic Vegas party again that
you guys missed last time. I'm working well some of
us went right I think Marshall went well Marshall went and he definitely is going
again but the rest of you weren't around so you guys didn't weren't able to go
but I will be there Victoria well you guys put that on our put that on our
calendar okay cuz it's you know it's invite only and so we are going to be
able to give other people
opportunity to get into the party and that's all tied into Liquid NFTs, which is a new
platform that has liquidity built into the NFTs and tied to USD.
It's a really great platform.
It's out, but they haven't done the hard launch yet, but hopefully you'll bring them up.
It's Nathan with Crypto Magazine.
You guys know them.
Dude, Mr. Dude knows them really well, but-
Funny thing is I actually had a call with Nathan
in Liquid NFTs, what, yesterday, Mr. Dude,
or the day before?
Yeah, one of those days.
Yeah, I think it was the other evening.
Yeah, it's actually quite incredible
and really excited to see Rogue Buddies
launching with Liquid NFTs.
Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there.
No, that's okay.
I'm really excited about it because it is a really unique way to sell NFTs.
It's a new take on it.
The old version of NFTs has kind of been played out and people have lost confidence.
Unless you're just collecting it to collect the art, a lot of projects aren't even attaching utility to it anymore or you know, so this is a great,
I am learning more about it, but I'm very excited to be working with them and kind of
being early in on their platform and creating another product that can bring in, you know,
another audience, a new audience, another direction
of a new audience into the Rogue Bunnies community and now the Mansion Society.
Now that I think about it, just because you brought up liquid NFTs, the tokenization model
of liquid NFTs and RWAs, I mean, even bonds, just the different things that you could do with it,
could be really interesting because they're pegged to the stable coins. There's like a level of
insurance that can actually be provided. You know what? Maybe you need to talk to Nathan again
about this, but that is actually quite interesting. Even like real estate, if you were to tokenize real estate with the liquid NFT and because
it's back or pegged with the stable coin and you're hmm.
It's a lot to unpack and we certainly have opened the conversation and we go down the
rabbit hole of all the different things.
We launched a token last December.
We could tie the token, you know, there's so many different things that the
possibilities that are there. So I am really excited to kind of understand further what the
possibilities are and how we can really utilize that technology platform to, you know, offer our
community and new communities another version of our product to connect us, to connect.
And not to too hard show here,
but I see Liquid NFT, he's got his hand up.
I kind of think this is kind of interesting
part of this conversation.
Nathan, if you wanna chime in here.
Hi everyone, how you doing?
And maybe explain a little bit
because
if we're talking about tokenizing
everything, I think the
Liquid NFT model could be quite interesting.
An interesting
way to look at it
or even utilize it.
Definitely, and I mean
in all fairness, thanks for letting me
up. In all fairness, listening to the whole conversation, it
seems that everything that everyone's been speaking with
kind of fits exactly in what we've been trying to build and
trying to achieve as a company and a platform. I mean, my name
is Nathan Hill. I'm the CEO of the Crypto magazine.
We're currently the largest printed crypto publication globally,
available in major retailers in around 22 countries globally.
We've just launched the Liquid NFT system, which effectively is liquidity backed NFTs.
This is different from most of the stuff that's out there at the moment.
Whereas the NFT that you actually purchase, as in the person that mints that NFT,
the liquidity is actually locked specifically in their NFT.
So the only person that can actually access that liquidity
is the NFT owner and the volume from the whole marketplace, mint and secondary sales, actually
the fees go back to building everyone's liquidity. So obviously if you have a scenario where your liquidity is
consistently increasing in price, therefore the floor price will increase.
So kind of gone are the days where you mint an NFT at $100 and it drops down to
$2 within a few months. It physically can't happen because no one's ever
going to sell their NFT for
less than their liquidity value. If anything, the complete opposite. When you sell that
NFT, your liquidity with the NFT moves with it to the new buyer. So on that basis, people
will always pay above the liquidity value on the basis that it's continuously increasing.
So obviously the longer you hold that NFT, the more liquidity you'll accumulate.
We're still a baby.
It's a completely new concept.
It took us a year to build.
We've built it from the ground up.
We're still increasing dev teams
so that we can scale a lot faster.
But one of the things, and obviously the reason I jumped in here was just to
support Rogue Bunnies and what they're doing, I think is fantastic.
And obviously with the conversation that was going on with musicians and sports
personalities, athletes, we've actually got around 2,000 musicians that have
agreed in principle to launch their music on Liquid and what that actually
does is it actually gives them, they don't need to pass ownership of their
music and what they've written and worked hard to produce over to a record label.
They can mint their music and produce it on liquid and the investors, their fans, the
listeners of their music, they become the record label.
They get a chunk of the revenue.
And we're also speaking with one heavyweight and one lightweight boxer at the moment that have just gone pro,
that are saying, well, actually, instead of us looking at sponsorship being that we're
starting our career, we could potentially launch a liquid NFT and actually allow people to purchase either a part of our future income or winnings or kind of sponsorship money.
And you can own a part of that sports personality.
So kind of everything that has been spoken about today really hits home with me.
Can you explain the underlying technology with the NFT?
Yeah, definitely.
And it's actually very similar.
I forget who was talking about it earlier.
I think it was someone was mentioning about the stablecoins, USDT, USDC, and how they
work.
Whereas what we actually do is all of our all of the
liquidity that we hold is effectively it's in it works very much like a
stablecoin contract but all of the liquidity is backed one-to-one in USDC
and that when we actually identify the problems yeah I mean I'm not a techie in
the slightest obviously I have a knowledge,
I have to working within this industry,
but I'm a business and marketing consultant by trade
and have been for 28 years.
I'm exposing my age now,
but the way that this works is when you look at
the traditional NFT industry, it's intrinsically flawed.
It doesn't work. All the secondary sales platforms are consistently incentivizing prices to go
down. And the way that they do that is that because it has no intrinsic dollar value,
you have to rely on someone else buying it. But with liquid NFTs, you don't.
You've got that redeem to exit strategy.
Gone are the days where you need a buyer to buy your asset
because you can just redeem it.
And when you use the redeem function,
it triggers the corresponding liquidity.
It drops that into your wallet in USDC
and we're currently only on Polygon.
And it then burns the NFT from existence.
So if you liquidate it, right.
If you liquidate it, but it actually makes no sense to liquidate it unless you really need those funds because someone will always buy it from you.
Yeah.
More than your liquidity value.
Um, but, but generally when a content creator sets up an NFT, they take
100% of the funds. But now they've got all of the money, it makes no business sense for
them to invest any more in creating a secondary market because they're just wasting good money
after bad. So obviously, that then leaves the project with no investment being
put into it and the price tanking and then the secondary markets incentivizing everyone
to sell because the best way for you to sell is to list your NFT cheaper than the cheapest NFT.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, let's pause on that one and I know Over the Reality has their hand up really quick.
We'll come right back just to kind of understand some of the different underlying technology on it.
But yeah, go ahead Over the Reality.
Thanks Richard. Darren, I told Darren I was going to stay for the full three hours, but it's like I needed a jet.
But I did want to mention something.
I wanted to circle back to this tokenize everything and something that Mr. Dude said a while back
about, hey Mr. Dude, I'm from Canada as well.
Not over the reality, but digital femme.
So when Mr. Dude was talking to the new prime minister and getting him like getting Canada
on the blockchain, I wanted to say that is possible. And when rogue bunnies, Hey Victoria, it's me. I know
we've been in spaces before. It's really good. Hey you. Yeah. It's good to see your project.
You know, like you've all the Victoria, this whole Playboy mansion. Did you know that you
can actually tokenize the geospatial layer of where that
Mansion is so this is what I wanted to say. Um, what was I gonna say?
But if since over the reality is in this space, I have to say this
Where everybody's talking about tokenizing real world assets like real estate stocks gold, whatever but think about it guys
What if the next big asset and personally, digital fam,
the one that's throwing out the purple hearts, I believe this is, this is truth what I'm saying,
what I'm going to say next. What if the next big asset is the world itself? Okay, hear me out.
So over the reality, we have a deepenedin decentralized physical infrastructure network. We call it Map to Earn, where we utilize the community.
And they use their smartphone devices
to literally 3D map the world where they're taking literally
pictures of geospatial locations.
So people are going to say, so what do we care?
Google's been doing that.
Niantic's doing that now.
No, Google and Niantic is doing that now. No, Google and Niantic is doing
that, but they're not on the blockchain and they're kind of like they're using GPS. Yes,
Niantic is using visual positioning system now, but for whatever. So hear me out. D-PIN,
this is where D-PIN and real world assets emerge because of O map to urn and we are collecting geospatial data for locations
around the world. By the way, we have about 1.6 trillion overlands, like digital lands
that are on the polygon chain. This data can actually be tokenized. Why would you want to do that? Think about it.
The world has, we know it.
We're building out the physical AI.
Physical AI is a reality with humanoid bots
and whatever, like smart cars and devices.
Where do you think these humanoid bots
or what's it called, devices that roam around the world, they're going to need to know their location in the physical world.
So how do they do that? They get that from the geospatial data.
So I just wanted people to realize that there's going to be an intersect with deep-in and real-world assets and the ability to actually
tokenize geospatial data, which is very, very important for the oncoming evolution of the
physical AI that's going to be built out.
I guess one of the questions that I have is how...I understand you can tokenize the virtual part of it.
But as far as the updates and the satellites themselves,
I mean, are you also going to be tokenizing that part?
Good question, Richard. We're not using satellite.
It's actually all like Gaussian splatting.
Over the Reality app, which is available on Android and iOS, people literally take
and with the use of AI, so we do Over the Reality combines Gaussian splatting and AI,
so they take their user's smartphone, their camera, you don't need LiDAR, and they take
about 300 to 1,000 photos of a specific hexagonal-shaped overland.
So all that data, it's not a spatial data that's really on servers like cloud servers,
if I'm answering your question right.
Yeah, that's fine.
Yeah, that's exactly what I was asking.
Okay.
Well, I just wanted the opportunity to say that. So Mr. Dude, if you're there, definitely,
like Canada and anywhere in the world, geospatial locations can be tokenized. And why would you want that? So Victoria, is she still in here? If you were to own the digital layer over the
Playboy Mansion, you could actually create augmented reality experiences.
And this is huge for like entertainment.
When people own the digital layer over stadiums,
over like wherever Coachella is, right?
Why would you have to own it?
Why couldn't you just do the augmented reality anyway,
like on a whole different platform?
Good question.
It's because when people make AR experiences and you want to anchor
it specifically to a specific spot in RL, in the real world, you're going to need that data.
So similar to Niantic when they launched Ingress or Pokemon Go, they just like
through the 3D asset of
all the Pokemons all over the world.
So you know that when you play the game, sometimes you could even access the Pokemon because
it was like, I don't know, in the middle of the street or whatever.
But what's important is when we're moving towards a future where, think about it, where
XR like AR, VR is going to be merging with the real world, like X-real global. There's going
to be a lot of wearable devices where we will be walking around and augmenting our world with
augmented reality. And the only way to do that, which would work more effectively and as efficiently if this content creators are able to take a 3D asset.
Like let's say Nike, I love this example.
So I guess my question is, and just to pause real quick is,
like what kind of legal complications would you have
over somebody who technically owns,
they've tokenized the land itself, right?
They own the land, they tokenize it,
and then somebody wants to tokenize
and try to own the digital,
you know, the digital augmented reality,
like two separate entities, you know,
one from one app and one actually owning the land itself.
I mean, what's gonna keep that from, you know,
from somebody owning the land actually superseding or overriding
something like that?
That's a good question.
So when we're talking about these assets on a geospatial layer, they're actually on over
the realities platform.
So if somebody else wants to come along, let's say Central Park, Some people owned the digital layer on over the reality over Central Park and they created
an AR experience.
That's fine because that is on over the reality.
Now whether you view that AR asset through the smartphone or integrate it with certain
AR wearables, that's one thing. Somebody else can come along like Niantic or someone and can put an AR experience
over it. But so far there has not been one company that I know of or that over knows of that is able
to actually use visual positioning system which means that it's a lot more accurate than the GPS. GPS is about like what, four to six meters,
whereas when you use a visual positioning system,
you can actually put a 3D asset,
like really four to six centimeters.
So in terms of the, what do you call it?
Like the legality of it, it's almost like this.
When the internet came out,
there was so many browsers, right?
But we all kind
of like access the same information or the same website. Like if we were going to access
quick swap dot whatever IO or whatever, are we going to access it through? Is Firefox
even still around? Are we going to access through Chrome, Safari? It's kind of like
that. I don't know. Like I think I hope I answered your question.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
I want to ask another question here to the panel.
Tokenized Treasuries and Gold are gaining traction.
But what's the one RWA use case that
actually makes a difference for everyday users?
You guys don't have to raise your hands.
You can actually just hop on in and don't be shy.
I guess it depends if we're talking about today or in the future.
Let's talk about today because I do got a future question.
So yeah, let's do it today. I would say, and they're not usually classified as it, but I consider stablecoins an RWA because
they're just tokenized dollars and bonds.
And those are already being used, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean yeah, people do compare RWAs to stable coins, saying that they're just traditional
finance with like extra steps, but I mean like what's the best way to explain?
I would argue it's less steps. I mean, if you buy a stablecoin, you can get yields.
Now it's not like universal yet.
Like you can do it on Coinbase, for example.
You can go on Coinbase with your credit card, buy USDC and start earning bond yields right
away.
Whereas like to buy bonds as a normal person is normally harder than that.
I think you even get the yield if you hold the USDC on base.
That's crazy. I didn't know that.
I think that's something they announced a couple weeks ago.
Wow, that's pretty incredible. That's a huge win for base. Wow.
Yeah. And then on Cosmos. We have something called USDN
similar
You get the I think you might have to stake it in something
But I think we're gonna move to a place where you don't even have to stake it into something and you get
Some sort of risk-free quote-unquote yield like a treasury base yield or something
Yeah, I mean the the the stable coins will compete over time, I think.
And like right now, they're keeping almost all the yield, or at least at first they were.
Then you can now earn it through Coinbase.
Now you can earn it through base.
Maybe later they'll just make it so you could earn it anywhere.
But and maybe it'll be, you know, maybe they take 10 percent of the yield.
But yeah, if you could, if it's Tether is not giving out yield,
but USDC is giving out yield, it'll force Tether over time to have to compete by giving out some yield.
And you compete profits away, right? That's how capitalism works.
And then in the long run, too, you can also see that that'll work to increase yield, right?
So, of course, there will be some kind of like tension between the sort of risk on yields and the risk free yields.
But at some point, there'll be alternatives to tether slash circle, which will be sort of risk on yield.
That'll give you like 8% for we would be like you know high yield equivalent
or something like that.
Yeah, I mean you have we already have that right you can get you could get 10 to 15%
on stable coins around the industry but you got to take more risk.
Whereas you know USDC giving out the bond yields would be considered like a low risk or someone might even market it as no risk.
I would disagree. But I mean, bonds in themselves are not no risk.
They used to be the risk free asset.
I don't know that that's so clear anymore.
Just in the finance term of risk free asset quote unquote, you know, yeah, like and I think, you know, in crypto, you could even make the argument a risk-free yield is like whatever you get on Aave, right?
I mean obviously it's not risk-free, but like it's the closest equivalent to what we have in crypto to what the treasury yields offer.
So, you know, if you're putting in Aave right now, I think you get 2% or something, depending on which chain,
but most of that is arbed away. And if you're putting in USDC and getting the treasury yield,
that's 4 or 4.5% right now. So, you know, you should see in theory a lot of stablecoins
moving from the Aave, being staked in Aave to being into treasury yields.
But we're not really seeing that too much.
Most of what we see in terms of stablecoin accumulation is
just more and more dollars getting
tokenized and then just sitting on the sidelines of waiting.
That's what we see in terms of analyzing the supply.
The way I see it is that RWA is not an asset class, like analyzing the supply.
The way I see it is that RWA is not an asset class, but people might make this confusion.
To me, RWA is a solution.
So saying investing in RWA is like saying,
it's like saying investing on the internet.
You can't have a direct exposure,
but it's not really an asset class. So to me, Stablecoins are a type of RWA
for sure. But it's kind of like NFTs, you know, NFTs are not really an asset class because
they could be all kinds of asset classes. I mean, RWAs are, I guess it's not a subsect of NFTs because some RWAs are NFTs and some are fungible.
Yeah, that's where I'm really interested in seeing is when RWAs get issued, are people
going to like the NFT version of them or the fungible token with sort of white list functions
more?
I think it depends on what the RWA is.
If it's a treasury bond,
then it's nice to have it liquid like USDC.
If it's a Pokemon card,
then it should be an NFT because they're unique.
Yep.
And in real estate, I could see it go either way.
It's really gonna be up to the platform
to innovate and establish a standard.
But even with art, right, like you can have a piece of art that is just sitting somewhere
and it's not generating any revenue, but you can turn it into an asset and start showing off in
expositions and getting tickets and money for people to see it and then distribute this income for the people
that have equity on that piece of art.
So it depends on how it's structured
and tokenization allows to structure stuff
in many, many different forms.
the and some really clever people up on the stage. I know that, a quick question, I know that early on,
Definitely.
I think it was Rock that was talking about the Howie Test.
I mean, the Howie Test was kind of written back in, what, 1943, 1946?
And completely non-fit for purpose, by today's standards. the the the wording and please don't quote me verbatim is something along the lines of um it's a something with with it if you're earning money from the actions of others
with the expectation of earning a profit and that's what they use that wording oh are you
expecting a profit yeah i mean i spoke with my legal team about this and about liquid NFTs because everyone was saying,
well, look, is this a security?
Because we're adding liquidity and it's an incredibly gray area, but what we've said
is, well, if everyone clicks like a disclaimer button before purchasing that says, I understand that but my expectations are to reduce my losses due to the liquidity element,
then generally that means that everyone has confirmed and they've said, look, it's a very gray area,
but you've actually got an argument here if this was ever pulled up in a court of law because you can say every single purchaser of every project on there
has clicked a disclaimer to say I understand by continuing with this purchase I am reduced on my
expectations are to reduce my future losses there's nothing in the how we test as far as I'm aware
that says you can't earn a profit but I don't know what other people's opinion on that is.
I always focus on failing the Howey test right it's the one test I want to fail and the way
that I always considered the best way to fail is to make someone stake something right and that way I fail the action of others plank of the
Howie test because you know if you don't get the benefit if you don't stake then
literally it's your action which causes you to get that benefit now I'm not a
lawyer and don't take my legal advice but that is just seems to me to be the
best way to fail the Howie test if The goal is to fail the Howie test.
Well, that's the funny part about this is like when a rule is overbearing, people tend
to find a way to circumvent it. This is why actually the political regulatory panel I'll be speaking on today in a few hours is about
sandboxes like regulatory and tax and growth,
sandboxes around the world, including where I live now in Puerto Rico.
And what you find with rich people is they will find ways around
the rules. And so all humans will find ways around rules if the rules are overbearing. If the rules
are reasonable, then people don't tend to look for ways around them. Some might, of course, but
when you make things overbearing where people just generally don't agree with
the rules, you know, you get a lot of people out there saying things like, you know, taxation
is theft, which I tend to agree with. I still pay all my taxes because I don't want to be
put in a cage or be a martyr. But I think it's a fair thing for people to look for legal loopholes when the tax system is
massively overbearing.
I think that many people are paying 70, 80, 90 percent in taxes, I think, if you add up
all the property taxes, income taxes, inflation taxes, sales taxes, import taxes, alcohol taxes, cigarette taxes, various sin
taxes, the cost of, you know, when you buy a house, you're not just, you know, paying
property taxes on it.
You're also paying for the extra cost of labor, of the laborers that had to pay their income taxes and all of the permitting and the zoning
and all of the government work that goes into that.
I think we're at a point where people don't even know it and we're paying maybe 80, 90
percent in taxes or the equivalent thereof because when you buy something, that thing,
if there was no heavy government hand involved in every thousand, like every car you buy something, that thing, if there was no heavy government hand involved in every
thousand, like every car you buy, there were probably 5000 regulatory decisions and taxes
and you know, and friction on every single part of that vehicle. And some of those parts,
maybe 10 times over friction. And then that makes the vehicle instead of costing
where it might cost you know 10,000 I think it makes the vehicle cost maybe 30 or 40,000
and then you're paying you know sales tax and a registration and speeding tickets as
an as a tax on it.
Anyways, I got a little rant there but you know what's crazy about that now that you
bring it up you know in California
uh... you know how much you're paying uh... in tax per gallon
sixty six dollar
no i think it's more dude no it's sixty six well the last time i read it was
sixty six cents
per gallon i think it's more
uh... you might only be including like one part of it
there's probably other.
How absurd and crazy is that?
We can't even travel.
We can't go to work.
We can't go to work.
You can't go to work.
Well, if you drive to work, not all of us, you know, get to stay at home.
But for those, for most traditional traditional people they have to drive to
work you can't even go to work without paying taxes um on on gasoline that
includes people who are taking public transportation you can't go to work
without paying a tax if you're I don't know you're riding a bus right like how
about don't forget road taxes walking down the street you're gonna go outside the there, you're going to charge us because we live in a busy traffic area. Are you joking me? And
again, you completely forget that you've then got income tax and then the company you work for has
a tax on the profits. It's insane when you think about it. So I just looked it up on GROC, Richard.
So there's a state excise tax of 60 cents, that's probably what you're referring to. There is a federal excise tax of 18 cents. There's a sales tax of 15 cents. There's a LCFS tax of 12
cents. In 2025, it's set to increase. There's a cap and trade tax of whatever that is of 27 cents storage fee 2 cents
Uh, so for a total of a dollar and 24 cents per gallon
Which is just wild. That's disgusting. That's absolutely disgusting. Is there not a gavin neeson podcast?
My goodness, uh
so Anyways part of the reason I moved to Puerto Rico.
That is just crazy.
So yeah, I guess one of the just want to pivot to another question here.
You know, wait, by the way, that dollar 24 doesn't take into account all of the all of the how
much do you think the producer this is where I was saying like when you buy a
house or a car you think oh I'm just paying my you know sales tax on it but
you're dead and registration you're definitely not I mean how much was the
producer of the car taxed how much regulatory burden did they have to go
through how much are they spending
on legal fees for regulatory? I'm sure that is boosting the price of gas outside of those
direct taxes by, it might be 20, 30% of the cost of the gas. It's really ridiculous when
you think about it. I'm like, yeah, I mean, that's a natural part of production that I'm okay with.
Transporting is okay, but actually to your point, here in Puerto Rico as an example,
there's I believe it's 18% tax which is odd because the reason Puerto Rico has these interesting tax
rules is because it's a territory of the United States, but it is not a state.
They don't get any seats in Congress, in neither the House nor the Senate.
So because of our Declaration of Independence and all of our allegations against the king
at the time of Britain and all the bad things
that we claim he did to us, which I agree by the way.
So our whole thing was no taxation without representation.
So Puerto Rico gets no representation in America, even though they're a territory.
And so the United States cannot tax Puerto Rico, but we get around that, and this is the shittiness of government
and the inefficiencies of government, the way we get around that is all goods that go to Puerto
Rico, they import 60 billion dollars of goods from around the world, all goods that go to Puerto
Rico have to first go to the states, American states, and they have to be like docked and
states, American states, and they have to be like docked and taken off and considered
like sold there and then they have to be resold and they can and they add an eight.
I believe it's an 18% tax.
They have to be resold to Puerto Rico and that's where the US makes money from Puerto
Rico.
We can't technically tax them because we don't give them seats in Congress, but we can force
any goods that go to Puerto Rico to come to America first and then be sold to Puerto Rico this is like how stupid is that instead of
going straight from wherever it's coming from Brazil, China, whatever, Europe, it has to go to
the United States first and then add a tax on top of it and then send it over to Puerto Rico
that's the stupidness of government everything here in Puerto Rico costs more. Is that because of Jones Act? I don't know. What's that? Some rules they
made like in 1918 that they haven't taken off the books, which is sort of like that.
Like all trade between states need to be a state flagged vehicle or something like that? Oh, I don't know.
I bet sounds about like government though.
I bet it is a bunch of old antiquated law.
They forgot to take off the books and no this I think this one's very much by
design because they they don't have another way to tax Puerto Rico,
but they want to right.
They want to benefit from their territory, but they're not able to because
they don't have representation. So this is their workaround, is raise the prices of everything,
waste time, waste money, so that we can basically break our own rule in our Declaration of Independence.
I guess where people try to do workarounds for tax loopholes, governments try to do the same.
This is their workaround to continue taxing people.
It's a constant arms race.
How do you think though, and I guess this kind of ties into kind of our topic here,
and I'm not sure, but so I mean, maybe you guys can just maybe unpack this question a
little bit for me.
How do you think taxes and tokenization is going to work? I mean, is there going to be like a level of defy to it that we that the government
is going to utilize or like, I mean, are we going to maybe it's going to flip the script and maybe
you know, the users of the consumers are going to be able to benefit off the taxes.
I mean, any idea of maybe how taxes and tokenizations can come into play?
And then maybe I'll just shoot this over to M-Post Media Group.
I haven't heard from you quite yet today.
If you're yet today.
If you're still there.
Yeah, thanks a lot. Everyone really glad to be here today.
So, you know, it's a great question
because taxes and deconization is a very important thing
because I think it depends on the jurisdiction,
you know, the type of tokenized asset and how it's used.
But absolutely yes, tokenized assets will be 100% tax
just like the off-chain counterparts.
I think the challenge is how to track,
maybe categorize and enforce it in, you know,
with free environment.
Cause let's say, I don't know,
you tokenize a piece of real estate.
From a legal perspective, you are not creating a new asset yet.
You are creating a digital right before an existing, I don't know, taxable asset.
So taxes still apply based on the underlying asset, not the token format, I think.
You know, it would be cool? Just thought of is if we, I'm not, I'm still undecided on how I feel about the U.S. having
a sovereign wealth fund, but if you could tokenize the sovereign wealth fund, that would
be interesting.
Could be very interesting. So well, I think, you know, tokenized assets will be text, as I already said, based on
the real world equivalence.
That's for sure.
So the rule will vary by country, I think, as for me.
But there is huge need for standardization, you know, and cross-border coordination for
this topic. What do you think about that?
Well cross-border collaboration is the beauty of web 3
Web 3 globalizes markets
It doesn't care like what like why do American stocks only trade during American waking hours?
Why are they not trading 24-7?
And why don't we give access to American? If we want people to invest in America, every country wants people to invest in their country, right?
There are some nuances. Maybe you don't want your adversary
owning too much of your country, and so that could be something. But I think generally it's
a good thing when we have countries and citizens from countries investing in other countries.
It has lots of benefits. You get way more capital access to your markets. As a country,
what would you rather have? No one investing in your country or everyone investing in your country? I would definitely rather have everyone
investing in our country and you then having 24 hour trading settlement. Really it's instant
settlement with blockchain. You don't need clearing houses and all these things. We just
create this massively efficient market.
And one of the great benefits of having countries invest in other countries is they have a lot
less desire to go to war with those countries.
That's I think a huge deterrent of war is that cross country trade. Do we want to go to war with China? Probably not, because we both
trade a lot of stuff with each other. They get lots of US dollars, we get lots of cheap, you know,
and to some extent quality these days, goods from China. And if we were to just, if we were to go to war, that whole supply chain would
stop and both countries would be severely disrupted.
So there's less of it's it disincentivizes war.
And the same thing with if you have countries investing in each other, do you,
if you're invested in a country, do you want that?
Do you want to bomb that country?
You know, you're not going to be as likely to do so.
Probably not.
You know, it's funny that you bring that up because I believe the UAE just committed to
a 10 year 1.4 trillion investment framework in the United States just recently.
Who did the UAE?
Oh, wow.
Yeah, they just had a is that like a Trump marketing thing?
It is it totally is it kind of popped up on watch your Kufru
But it's you know, it's still it's interesting how you you bring that up and you're right. I mean crypto tokenization
you know the payment rail system of it makes it so much easier for for cross border transaction and trade and
It is a good question of why you you know, the stock exchange here in the U.S.
is only, you know, set up for, you know, a certain amount, a certain timeframe,
a certain hours.
And, you know, the difference between crypto is it just nonstop 24 7.
I mean, this is a this thing just keeps spinning and keeps on going.
You know, what's interesting about, like I participated a lot on, there's a subreddit
called, I think it's capitalism versus socialism or socialism versus capitalism.
And how interesting is it when if we can democratize ownership of all of these means of production of all these companies of all
these assets around the world which crypto does better than anything it's a
it's a kind of way of getting some of the good parts of socialism but in a
capitalist and private property ownership way.
It makes it so that, like the reason that like a lot of socialists will argue that capitalism
is such a bad thing is because like all the people are the poor workers and they just
work and produce all the value and then the capitalists which don't do anything, they
just have the money and they just earn interest, which is a very narrow it's like that's not how it actually works.
But that's the argument.
But if you can start making the public markets, the retail people have been able to access
all of the companies through like, you know, tokenization and better, more efficient, open and open, open and permissionless finance, then you take
away a lot of the premium of these investors with their capital.
There's always a balance between labor, work, capital, entrepreneurship, all these, there's
balances. And so if capital becomes, if there's too many people investing and not enough people
working, then the wages go up and then money flows to the workers. If there's too many people working
and not enough investors, then the rates go up on these yields and investments, and then money flows towards them,
and it's a constant equilibrium.
If the laborers and the workers,
which is a great thing about publicly traded markets,
and crypto just does them better,
it's just more open and more global,
but if you can move more regular people's money
and their focus and attention from their labor to their investing and saving, which we disincentivize heavily these days, but if you can move people towards that, then capital will have less yields
because there will be more capital going into those markets and labor value will go up.
It's an interesting dichotomy, I guess.
That's awesome.
So I'm gonna have to drop here.
I've got a call to be on,
but I did want to kind of leave you guys
with a kind of question here now that we're,
but we've got 40 minutes left here in this space.
So yeah, I just want to leave this for you guys
to kind of unpack and go through.
So fast forward to, and by the way,
I see Alex here and Caleb, welcome to the stage, guys.
It's great to see you, oh, and ladies.
And so fast forward to March 2020 26, our RWAs a foundational piece of DeFi?
Or are we still figuring out how they fit? And either one of you can kind of take this
away Alex or Caleb.
Alex, I'm going to talk before you just so I get a word in your mouth. I love you, Alex.
I was going to say something that we didn't talk about or someone had mentioned.
There's actually a very interesting episode that Empire did talking about tokenizing uranium
training, essentially.
You think about uranium, it's one of the most regulated materials in the entire world.
They actually are bringing it on chain.
There's very few players in that game, as you can imagine.
There's lots of steps that have to be taken.
If you look up, I think they're called Uranium Digital.
They are actively right now creating on the blockchain.
I think they are building on Solana, but that's a case of RWA is that I just, it kind of blew my mind as the guy was talking about it. I was like, wow, yeah, the blockchain is going to be where uranium is being traded. So that's a pretty interesting use case. But, Rock, you've talked a lot about taxes and things like that. Have you listened to Howard Leppnick's interview yet?
Sorry, on the all in?
Yeah, I actually was listening to it last night before bed.
I got like halfway through it.
It's very long.
It's really good, really good.
It's one of the best.
And he goes into so much detail talking about the history.
I think a lot of people when they hear
what the current government's doing,, I think a lot of people when they hear what the current government's doing
there's just a lot of confusion because people maybe are not as
educated on their civics and you know, they're
As maybe times past and so they hear a sound bite, you know
You always hear this what is the most popular sound bite when someone says tariff the person responds says you're passing the cost on
To the consumer and that might be true, but there's a lot of context that's still being
missed, right? So I just was, I just want to say that anyone else listening, you know,
that's a great interview to hear to get some context to what the current administration
at least thinks that what they're doing. So very, very well done, interview.
Alex, how you doing? Hey, fine.
So yes, it will be foundational for DeFi,
but not by March, 2026.
Yeah, things seem to move slower than we expect.
I thought blockchain gaming would be here by now,
but it is still not great.
A lot of these things are not here. To me still the main, the only use cases that have really been proven in in Web3 is DeFi and maybe stable coins, stable coins being kind of a subsect of DeFi and a subsect of RWAs.
But yeah, we've been pretty slow.
It's surprising how slow crypto mainstream adoption has happened,
given that we already have the internet to spread information and we've already
figured out like how to build these kind of companies through the first iterations
of the internet and hundreds of years of capitalism, but still crypto is moving
slow. I guess,
I mean, 15, 16 years and in some ways you could argue it's fast. The US is now going
to be buying crypto, but yeah, a lot of these other like RWAs are still being figured out.
DSI still being figured out, D-PIN really still being figured out,
no real big mainstream applications of a lot of these things.
Am I wrong?
It's coming with RWAs mostly because I always think about my grandmother.
It's very hard to explain to her what is Bitcoin,
what is DeFi, what's all of this,
but she understands investment, especially in the real estate.
I explained to her that we're
tokenizing a real estate deal here in Canada, and she understood it in a blink of an eye. And she
was like, okay, I would like to invest in that. How can I do that? Oh, sorry, grandma, you can't
do it because you're not an accredited American investor. You're a Brazilian grandmother. So
we're going to have to wait for the regulation so until you can invest as a Brazilian.
But I mean, to me, that's the way it's RWA says everyone.
It's so easy for people to understand what is a tokenized equity of something.
And real estate is cool.
But like, like other people were talking about here earlier, tokenizing music artists, sports
teams, people are so passionate about those things and they're
already put so much of their time and money into those things without getting much in return. So
if you're talking about getting equity in your favorite sports team or equity in your favorite
IP from a movie, I think it's going to be an explosive adoption if the regulations allow for that.
I think the industry is just, I mean, it's going to be evolving for years and years to
come. I don't think anyone quite knows what's coming in the future. I mean, I was speaking
with William Quigley, who's one of the, he created Tether, a USDT.
And, and he said, he said, you wouldn't believe when I created Tether, no one wanted to buy
It was trading like $1,500, I think a month or something.
I mean, it's now the largest traded token on the planet, I believe, if my information
is not wrong.
By volume, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, he said, look, no one understood it.
They go, why would I want to buy something for a dollar that's always going to be worth
a dollar?
And it makes complete sense.
When I entered this industry, I thought exactly the same, but it comes back to that educational
point.
But of course, he said, well, the reason I created this is stable coins weren't a thing.
And I was sick of constantly, like if I wanted to sell Bitcoin,
I had to go straight to my bank, which cost a fortune and then back again. And there was time,
I missed trades, I couldn't buy and sell when I wanted. He said, so we just said, why don't we
create something where we can just park our funds over here? And I think things evolve at such a rapid rate. And I mean, who could imagine now blockchain without stablecoins?
It's unimaginable to people getting into blockchain now, I think.
That's not actually why Tether was created.
Tether was created because so many different people couldn't get into Bitcoin originally.
So they could buy Tether and then Tether they converted into Bitcoin.
And that's why Tether for a long time was the biggest marker of the Bitcoin market.
Right. So you could actually use Tether to see what the inflows of Bitcoin were going to be. And to say that there's not a lot of adoption,
well, you're talking about retail,
but honestly, in terms of enterprise,
which is what I deal with a lot of enterprise,
adoption's actually been remarkable, right?
And that's where stable coins find a lot of their use.
And that's where we see a lot of the uptake
in quite a lot of this transactional
volume.
There's a huge amount of already absorption in use and that's actually what happened with
the internet originally also is that when enterprise sees it, enterprise will see the
value initially. Anyway, our WAs have already been absorbed in enterprise
and they're transacting enormous value and volume across jurisdictions using a complex
combination of things that I'm constantly pushing all the time because assets shouldn't
sit. So this is one of the things that, you know, what retail investors see is very, very different
from the universe of possibilities that exist and what, you know, is actually happening
in the blockchain market overall, right?
So you have to see the difference between what's happening in the blockchain market
and also what's happening in retail. One of the biggest problems with retail is that what's available to
the retail market, it's not about, the difference isn't about cryptos available to the retail market
and stocks, certain only public stocks
are or whatever. It's really about the quality of the investments that are available to retail
versus the quality of the investments that are open to accredited investors and enterprise.
The quality of these projects is so incredibly different. And one of the best things that retail investors can do is ask
questions and learn what questions to ask. Because you need to understand, first of all,
who is actually running the project and how they're planning on making money. Not everything should be tokenized because the things that are useful to tokenize are
essentially assets.
Assets are things that basically make you money while you hold them or that you will
sell for likely greater value when you're selling them.
The price is greater value than you purchase them.
That's why, by the way, it actually matters what price you purchase an asset for.
Dollar cost averaging was never meant to be a long-term strategy.
It's a whole other thing.
You have to understand investment strategy.
You have to understand what are good assets to tokenize.
You have to be offered, great projects. There are so many things that
are still missing. But in the end, the point of real world assets is to create an asset-based
finance economy. Right now, it is a debt-based economy and that is the biggest problem that
we have. When something doesn't work out, you are in debt and lose everything. Especially
if you are leveraged and you don't know how to use leverage and you owe to someone else.
Not only have you lost your bet but you actually owe to someone else. These debt-based economies are problematic.
Our economy was never intended to be a debt-based economy.
It is now, right?
That's not how it was designed by Alexander Hamilton.
That's what happened for a long discussion that I'm not going to go into.
But the point of real world assets is to create an asset-based economy.
The worst thing that happens if something doesn't work out is you
lose access to an asset, period.
But you don't go into the whole, you don't owe.
That is a much healthier economy overall.
That's where we're moving with real-world assets.
We're shifting the nature
of an economy and the ability to finance because fundamentally everybody has some asset.
So if you can have an asset, you can finance anything and you have the ability now to do
things. Once you have the ability to finance, you have the ability to do anything, to grow anything, to leverage
your own asset. That's much better than leveraging a promise and then having to pay in the future.
Leveraging an asset is much better than leveraging debt, if that makes sense.
It makes sense to me. When I made my comment'm USDT that that's not something that I read on the Internet that came from
the co-founder of USDT
they were his words pretty much I'm as to why he did it because I've talked
nobody know what we're with William Quigley
I'm yes I mean it's they were there are four or five co-founders
I'm him being one of them.
All right. Well, this was, I mean, I remember that period of time.
And this was something that, you know, Brock talked about a lot too. But I appreciate the comment.
I don't think I've ever heard Brock talk about that.
I think that would be really weird for him, even if it was true, to say the point of us
creating Tether is to buy Bitcoin and then for people to be able to predict the inflows.
It's not for Tether to buy Bitcoin.
It's because foreign markets, right?
People in foreign markets were buying, wanted to buy Bitcoin, but were unable to buy Bitcoin.
They weren't allowed to, but they could buy Tether.
That's a lot of what happened.
And remember Bitfinex is always connected to Tether, right?
That was the whole I-finex thing.
So there's all of these, you know, they're all connected.
There's three companies that are connected with Tether
through I-finex, but Bitfinex is one of them.
And that's how Tether actually grew so significantly,
is that people bought Tether, which was legal,
and then converted Tether into Bitcoin.
And that's how we could actually track
the increased volume in Bitcoin.
I mean, this was a common narrative. I don't know if
I don't know if there's proof that when you would print Tether, how do you know
this? I was there. I remember this period of time. I mean I was there too but this
is what people would claim. They also would claim that Tether wasn't backed
and lots of other things. I'm not going to argue with you about it. I mean that's it's actually something that
you could do that's actually I mean I was involved with a lot of people you were involved
with different people who say different things but I remember this period of time happening.
I know how it how Bitfinex and and Tether are connected you know that the bank that's
connected you know that you know all this stuff you have to I'm assuming you know that
the all the banks that
are connected and how they all work together.
But this is exactly what happened.
You remember this period of time with the Bitfinex and how I'm not going to go over
the big steal of Bitcoin from the Bitfinex holders, but not all the Bitfinex holders,
just a few.
But, you know, this is not a narrative. This is actually what happened.
But, you know, feel free to have your own narrative and say whatever you want to do. I'm not up to arguing today. I'm having a hard time with my daughter right now, so she's sick.
So I'm just not up to it.
I think us measuring or trying to predict what the intent of the creators of it was
is intent and what it might have been used for and what people thought it was used for.
I don't think there's a lot of clarity around that.
I was also there.
I remember all the time people would tweet, oh look, Tether just printed more tokens. Get ready for the pump.
You know, that was the narrative, but it didn't always happen like that.
I don't know. But anyways, I live here in Puerto Rico and I see Brock often.
I'll ask him. Let's see. Maybe I could get some info from him.
He's a pretty open, transparent person.
His wife is really nice.
Yeah, he's great. He's very great. He's amazing.
Yeah, I've known him for actually like 24 years long before crypto.
Hey, I know Carla. Tell him Carla says hello. Okay, will do.
Alright, so we lost
our cohosts. Do Mr Dude and
then Richard I think was
filling the spot. Um we've got
23 minutes left here before we
close it out. Are there any
particular pieces of RWAs?
Gus, any random topics people want to bring up?
Anyone wants to, uh, discuss
Or Darren, do you have any topics or questions
any any random topics people
want to bring up or Darren? Do
you want to bring up?
Well, I have one.
It's about regulations again and the mix it has with our WAs.
So at Therise, we have our TGE coming up soon.
And our token is made not to be a security.
But it kind of sucks because we would like to have some extra features in there.
The token has some nice features. We would like to have more.
So, for example, having some sort of dividend distribution from the tokenized assets that we do through our platform. So a more direct
exposure to the assets through the utility token, that would be nice, but it's currently not possible
because it would be considered a security. Same thing goes for staking. We don't allow staking of
our token unless a governance vote passes and because of regulations and the holders can vote on it
and that can happen.
So I don't know if the person from Manchurian is still here.
No, it's not.
Because that was like my main question for them.
How are they dealing with this?
How, what they think is going to happen in the future?
It's more of a future looking question, you know?
I guess if you look at crypto and question, you know,
what is the security or not,
that's been the age old question for us for so long.
Some people would say, hey, please regulate us.
Please tell us what, if not,
so there's two ways of looking at it.
One is, and the common thing people say I think is,
give us regulations so that we can, you know, play within those rules.
Another way of looking at it is just give us guidance, not necessarily regulations, give us clarity and tell us,
are we safe to keep building stuff?
And maybe you don't even have to declare whether something is a security or not.
I think the more we ask the government to tell us precisely what is a security or not
or to make rules around it, we might get more than we bargained for or we might not get
the result we're looking for and it might just create more friction. So I don't know, I kind of would prefer
they just stay a little more hands off for longer for us
to figure all this stuff out.
It's like AI.
If you get too heavy handed, you just stifle the innovation.
The internet, they started to get heavy handed,
then they backed off.
And that was a good thing, I think.
The internet was able to grow in a, in a, with
less friction. I hope that crypto can grow with some less friction. Then we figured out
because like with AI, the countries that decided to over-regulate too early are suffering.
So Europe, there's not a lot of AI innovation happening in Europe right now because they
were very quick on the trigger to start regulating.
The US started to regulate heavily and then like some of the stuff was overturned, some of the stuff was blocked and I think you know now with Trump he's really wanting AI to come here, crypto
to come here. I think those are smart moves to not go too harsh on regulation and tell people, hey, we're open for business.
We want you here.
Please come build here.
We will support you and we're not going to attack you and we're going to get rid of people
like Gary Gensler.
We're even going to incentivize you possibly with lower taxes for crypto companies or giving
you special treatment if you build your AI here or if you invest in AI here like SoftBank, etc.
I think with your question there Rob, in regards to kind of anything else with RWAs,
I've been giving a lot of thought lately to vehicles, cars.
And of course, a car becomes an asset at the point it becomes like a classic.
It depreciates in value over a certain period of time.
And this is something, again, that takes me back to that holding
holding a value within like an NFT and I've been thinking if you could have a
a value within like an NFT.
scenario whereas your car that you bought from a showroom I think the
average I think in the UK certainly when you drive a car out the showroom it
loses about 30% as soon as you sit in the driver's seat. I bought a vehicle brand new. And I phoned the insurance company. And it
was a I think it was 30,000 pound car. And they said, Look,
we can only give you an insurance currently for about
22,000. I had to take out gap insurance because it had lost
it had lost value instantly. The fact that it was then no longer brand new. But actually having,
value instantly. The fact that it was then no longer brand new.
let's say, the proof of ownership as an NFT with liquidity locked into it.
At the point you drive that out of the showroom, your vehicle becomes, it appreciates based on
becomes, it appreciates based on that bill of ownership. I mean, I don't know how easy
that would be. But I've been thinking about this for a year or so now going, well, that
could be huge, how it would be done. But again, coming back to that evolution side of things,
people are solving problems in this space all the time. I think real world assets,
vehicles could be a huge thing.
What do you think about, what does everyone here think about and Alex, since you weren't
on for some of the earlier segments, do we think that we will actually, you know, quote
unquote tokenize everything.
Will a large part of the world be tokenized?
Or are we maybe overzealous about these things?
Will all stocks be on chain?
I think at first stocks will be built, like stocks will be issued elsewhere and they'll
be like, you know, crypto wrappers and then we'll have that kind of infrastructure inversion where eventually they're issued directly on
chain.
And then you don't have to have clearing houses and all these other things.
And I think that'll happen with a lot of this stuff.
I think ETFs will start being issued on chain, a lot of, you know, gold gold ETFs etc. What do you guys think?
To me it's just like the beginning of the internet maybe 30 years ago, 20.
Nobody knew that 20 years into the future there would be
coming a thing called Uber and it would completely disrupt the taxi industry.
So right now I don't think we can imagine what's
going to be the outcome of all of this. And then there's all these dystopian and utopian possible
futures, right? Maybe we can talk about tokenization of securities, but also the
position of goods. So I could be good for inventory management for businesses, like
retail business. Okay, everything is tokenized.
Every piece of candy that we sell here in this,
in this small store, it's tokenized,
we can track it and it facilitates lots of stuff,
but at the same time, maybe it can be useful
to control everyone so it can start getting dystopian.
And okay, but for securities,
I think it makes complete sense.
So maybe tokenize everything that is a security makes more sense in the near future at least for me
but yeah it's hard to answer it's like we need to wait and see what's going to come out of it
in the long future in the long run. I think that there are so many things being built in the
background and behind the scenes,
out of the public eye.
And I feel incredibly privileged because of obviously my ownership of the crypto magazine
of speaking to some very clever and very influential people in the space.
I was talking to a guy the other day that's creating, he's tokenizing commodities
and as in the shipping of commodities also,
so things can be scanned in and out on the blockchain.
And even something like that you look at,
and I'd never thought of it,
but when he was explaining to me kind of
how that whole commodities industry works
with having to take insurance
policies before something shipped because someone doesn't want to pay for
this to be shipped to there before they've received the goods but
therefore that person doesn't want to ship it before they've received the
money and utilizing the blockchain for things like that I think could be insane
but but I mean I know that there are some huge, huge,
I mean, world-changing things being built behind the scenes.
It just makes me more bullish on this space every single day.
Yeah, totally agree.
Alex seems like he keeps getting rugged.
I think, can you hear us Alex?
She's connecting.
She's connecting for me.
It shows that she's dropped completely for me.
Can we show the treasure hunt now?
Yeah, sure. We mentioned it earlier, but yeah, let's talk about it again.
Yeah, so today is the final day of Tesrox Season 1 Treasure Hunt. The total prize pool
is $3,000 in pool. The first person to complete the Treasure Hunt wins $300. The people who
complete the Treasure Hunt in places 2 through five win $100 each.
And then after that, everyone who completes it and completes the survey will be entered
into a drawing and each will, I think it's 52 additional people, will win $50 a piece.
And I mentioned this yesterday or I sent this in a tweet from my personal account yesterday.
$50 might not seem like a lot of money,
but if you believe that poll has a future,
a 10X makes 5,500.
A 100X makes 55,000.
It really depends on how much conviction you have.
And if you're here and part of the polygon ecosystem, you probably want to snatch up
some tokens, bargain basement prices.
So this is an opportunity for that.
Free poll, guys.
So the point of the treasure hunt is that in season one of grants there was I think around 1200 applications.
We gave out around 18 million dollars to 120ish projects. So about 10 percent of the projects
that applied got grants and then of those 120 projects T Tesseract gave these subgrants sort of to
10 of the projects that were picked and if in a second maybe Nicole you
can name these projects but so these 10 projects got this accelerator support so
Tesseract is a polygon grants accelerator it's there to build and give
support to new projects coming to
polygon and old projects too that receive grants and get them integrated into polygon, help them
become more sticky so they don't just come get a you know a grant of money and then disappear
but actually get real support and get you know integrated into different things in different
parts of the ecosystem, the community,
different DeFi stuff, RWS,
whatever it is that their category is,
and they all are very different categories actually.
So the idea of Tesseract is to provide this strong
marketing support and BD support, integration support,
and do a two to three month accelerator program
for these projects.
And we will be voting soon on having Tesseracco live
for season two to be able to do more grant projects.
But yeah, this is a great way of showing off
all these projects.
Nicole, can you list the Tesserac projects?
Yes, I can.
Mint Stars, Faith Tribe, Deng Ketsu, Empire of Sight, QAC, Insuro,
Viper, Zerberous, Wen Markets, and Fuse. Yeah so these are all kinds of different projects. Fuse is
an Ag layer blockchain. Viper is a programming language that was actually started by Vitalik
Vypr is a programming language that was actually started by Vitalik.
That's like an iteration of Solidity that makes safer and easier coding for EVM.
It's used by things like Curve. I believe Aave might use it for some things.
I don't remember all the different, but a lot of big teams and lots of teams use Vypr.
And yeah, so through Tesseract, we did a hackathon for them to get more people to use use Vypr. And yeah, so through Tesseract,
we did a hackathon for them to get more people to use the Vypr language.
Let's see what else is there.
When markets is a pump fun type thing on Polygon.
Denketsu is a really cool NFT collection and community on Polygon.
Yeah, why don't Nicole, do you want to name some of the
ones and what they do QAQ actually ancient beast on the stage is the first
token that launched out of QAQ today today yeah yeah oh wow yeah cool and I
see poisonous pinups giving lots of like heart and love emojis down there. We appreciate you poisonous pinups.
And we can bring poisonous up on stage. She's requested, by the way. But thanks to beast. Yeah. So you launched through QAC, which is Quadratic Accelerator. It is very interesting kind of mathematical
kind of mathematical way to launch tokens that protects the users and
realigns incentives more properly so that their projects
aren't just dumping on people. It's basically an iteration of quadratic
funding which was also a Vitalik thing that he was very into for a long time
and still is. He still writes articles about it.
But yeah, this was built by a bunch of really brilliant people including Justice,
formerly Polygon, but now he's spun off
Quadratic Accelerator and he's left Polygon to focus on that and it's a really cool project.
But yeah, Ancient Beast, how is that going? How's your experience been
with Quadratic Accelerator and I guess maybe you're getting, I'm guessing you're probably
getting some indirect support from Tesseract since Quadratic Accelerator is part of Tesseract.
Hello, yeah Tesseract started helping us out recently. It's a great project and basically Icos are dead long time now so a lot of people like
GasCAM is not the way to go if you want to get into Web3 and Blockchains and have your project
up and running and get the necessary funding because what will happen you'll get like
flooded with boats that will buy first, second on lunch and then they'll just dump.
Usually whales will have like
systems to get like a lot more money because money attracts money and the rest of the
people and the project will become like bitter and
bitter and basically bag holders. So Quadratic Accelerator is like a state of that accelerator
basically bag holders. So
that implements a new way of doing things with a lot of safeguards and everybody should
be happy and the projects will have like a long-term way to gain financial rewards and freedom in order to implement features for their projects.
So it's a win-win situation for everybody because even for Wales if they suck dry a
lot of projects like Vampire you won't end up getting a lot of good projects out there.
You'll end up sitting on a lot of money to buy new things,
but there won't be like technological progress or a lot of humanity will be bitter.
You need to think in terms of the egg.
There's this video on YouTube explaining this new ideology.
I've come up with it myself and And basically, after two days, I've
seen video made animation explained nicely,
done by people, dozens of people working on that seven-minute
video for months.
So you need to think about the ecosystem,
because you could be sitting on a lot of money and still be sad.
You should rather have the money you need than the base reserve and have everything else
circulating. So you need to be very careful where you put your money at and invest into.
So I heard talks about Pokemon before and stuff like that.
Nintendo, cool company, they gave us a lot of games and stuff like that, but they're
like very capitalistic. They are all about making money for themselves. So Ancient Beast
turns things around. It's like made by the people for the people.
So everyone could have like a part of the project
and earn from it, like even create assets and stuff
like that contribute to the project
and they'll get like bounties and the practice shares
and stuff like that.
So it's like a modern implementation of chess
that combines pieces from a lot of
other popular games like MOBA, Stata League of Legends, Mortal Kombat Street Fighter,
Magic the Gathering and Pokemon and it brings them all together into this amazing little game that allows you to duel others using intelligence like you
have a limited resource called plasma and you use that to shield your dark priest, you
start with one unit that's able to materialize a squad of units that have unique stats and
abilities in order to defeat your opposition. So eventually the game
will expand besides the combat you'll have like city. Hey Beast, I'm gonna have to pause you there
since we only have four minutes left of the show and we want to read some comments from the
audience before we go. But yeah, cool stuff. Really glad you're
getting good support from Polygon, QAC, and Tesseract. We'll do some proper shielding
the next Friday. Yeah, thank you. Sounds good. Nicole, any other cool projects you want to
mention from QAC?
I know you flew with MintStars to East Denver and I
seen you had a bunch of events with them and you were helping them meet people,
and network, and all these things.
Yeah. So that was awesome.
I know that a lot of people maybe are turned away.
MintStars is an only fans competitor
that allows creators to keep 100% of the revenue
that they generate for the site
and the tips that they generate for the site.
And they are able to do that
because it's built on crypto payment rails.
So I know that there are a lot of people,
and actually it was strange for MintStars people
who were really used to the adult industry,
but not used to the crypto industry, but not used to the
crypto industry to kind of experience how conservative some people in the crypto world
can be and how some people didn't want to shake their hands or meet them or they were
really quick to dismiss them.
But what I really want to say is that applications like Mintstars are what I think will drive
the next wave of crypto adoption.
There are people using a product who don't even know that they're interacting with a
blockchain every day.
And isn't that, you know, like when people don't even know that it is, that they're using
it because it's so easy to use, isn't that really the gateway to adoption?
So I actually think that we should all support platforms
like Mint Stars that are doing things
and bringing people into cryptocurrency
who never used cryptocurrency
and who are maybe even against crypto.
Another one that's along those lines,
and I don't know if they were here,
but they were supposed to be here today was Faith Tribe.
And Faith Tribe is democratized fashion.
The idea is that any designer can go on to Faith Tribe's site, post the products that
they've created, and sell them to people who are browsing Faith Tribe's web store.
So it's the same thing.
You can buy directly with a credit card on Faith Tribe, or you can pay in cryptocurrency.
So I think that that's another really cool... were they here? I don't know. I don't
think they were here today. Okay AK said they were gonna make it but you know
how it is sometimes something comes up. Yeah all good. Any other cool projects
from Test Track we haven't mentioned? Nothing I mean nothing we haven't
mentioned there's a lot of really cool projects.
Yeah, the Faith Tribe and Mint Stars were mine from this last cycle, so those are the ones that I know the most about.
Okay, cool. Alright, let's do some questions, comments from the audience. See if maybe we can end answering some stuff here. Let's see. Oh, a funny two cent Timmy saying rock introducing
him. So that's funny. I'm not going to read that meme, but that's a pretty good one. Legend
has it that he goes on his walks in a suit wearing his American lapel pin. You're not
far off. I will be wearing my suit. You know, I actually here in Puerto Rico, out of respect for the people here,
because I wear my American flag lapel pin everywhere I go when Cindy and I go out
to dinner, et cetera, but here I actually got an American flag with a Puerto Rico
flag pin. So I want to respect the people here and show kind of solidarity with them, since sometimes
there can be tension between the two.
It's interesting that the three political parties out here are essentially labeled as
the people who want to become an actual state.
One is people who want to leave it as it is now as a territory and then the other
party is people who want to their own independence. So it's kind of interesting like the political
parties here it's not left right it's their allegiance to America is how the political
parties work here. Okay let's see Alex Damsker says listening to all the non lawyers commenting on regulation
Kenneth says fire doing says time to learn you kale Samuel says tokenization on point Leroy J says we're live
Polly moon agent says here's what I'm seeing in our latest truck am
This is a volume spiking nicely on quick swap. This is just a show I. I'm not gonna read all of this but cheers. They're nice comments. Yippee says Yippee. Deeppositus says
IMS on SIFT crisp blockchain history on point would be cool to have
you drop in. Someone says what OceaJax and IceCube and his team did with the big three was quite
amazing. Now there are platforms that tokenize the individual players. Pure amazing. Yeah,
that was a great conversation earlier. Man, I wish we would have seen that when we were
actually talking about that portion of the show. Ray says, I bring up tokenization to
people and they can't even think it is possible. Just like when I said that crypto will be
legitimized. Yeah, I think if you tell people most regular people like everything's going to be tokenized
they're like what does that even mean what is tokenized even mean and we're still pretty
early on that. Someone says listening to your xspace is live great speakers great topics
I think are that our project KulaDAO is pioneering the RW space, yada, yada, yada,
a shill. Okay, well actually this is kind of cool. Let's see, it says tokenizing the
governance of the assets that the community sits on, like physical mine, chicken farm,
hydropower plant. All stakeholders have a voice utilizing blockchain. You know what
someone should do? They should tokenize some orange groves but that might attract the SCZ even further because
it would be kind of a funny play on that. GDC consulting says spot on. Terra Nova, Terra Nova
was one of our speakers earlier. Let's see some shills. Someone says good afternoon everyone.
Someone says Genesis 613. Okay. JP, sorry I don't have that memorized. JP Nova Chadlow says,
RDWA is from a potential 1.5 trillion creative economy market, 18% APY. Use
decentralized.com. Another shill they were on today though. Sounds interesting
what they're building. We got some people showing some memes. We got someone
says, tokenizing already valuable assets does not solve the
ability for regular people to get access since the private equity sector already
tokenized through corporate ownership tokenized IP that is a commodity and
starts at zero offer better access to build an asset.
So no, no, that's not true.
No, that's not true. That's not true. That's actually a common misconception.
It is actually good for people who,
if even though corporate can actually finance that stuff in the beginning,
the whole idea is that people who couldn't get into that stuff can now get into it.
You can actually experience the rise in value when you couldn't get into it, right? You can actually experience the rise in value
when you couldn't get into it before.
So it's great to have stuff that even if it was financed
partially or entirely originally by corporate funding,
it's great to be able to get into it as a retail investor
because there's huge value in it later on.
I agree.
Yeah, I have to disagree with that person.
I think tokenizing these things absolutely gives regular people access.
I mean, the fact that if you go on base, for example, and you can hold USDC, which I just
learned today, and get treasury bond yields.
And you could be, base does not block,
from my understanding, they KYC builders, but not users.
So someone in Nigeria that has $10 to their name
can go basically hold $10 of USDC
and earn US treasury bonds.
That absolutely is giving access to these
assets.
And that's just one example out of hundreds.
I agree Alex.
This person Z says shows ZKRPS if you ever need to explain zero knowledge proof to somebody
and we're using we're only using stable coins.
Okay chill.
Serbin Daniels says, love one another.
William Henry Seward.
Uh, it's a good lesson.
Dumb Masala fan says, any plan to launch new burn mechanism from polygon team since the supply is 10.38 billion.
Uh, I don't know of any plans, uh, from polygon to, uh, do a burn. Oh, but by the way, quick swap just
did. We've been actually on this. We did a three month trial of instead of giving rewards for
staking, the rewards are going to burning and the community voted on this. There was options of like
half burn, full burn and the community voted for full burn. So, actually last month, Darren
might have the actual numbers handy, but I think it was something like 170,000 quick
were given out as rewards, but there was like 156,000 was burnt. So it was almost deflationary.
But then this last vote we just did was to increase the fees
that go to the burn. And now that if things stay on on the current trajectory,
quick swap will be the first decks in the world to be fully deflationary.
Burning more than are being emitted, which is I think a pretty incredible thing.
Darren, you have any numbers on that?
Yeah I think we've burned 5.2 million which is roughly in the last month like
173 thousand a day if I remember right and we were emitting like 180 thousand so we
basically almost deflationary anyway but yeah that the V3 fee going up 50% is going to massively change that.
So now we could be like 150% deflationary from like what we're emitting.
So if that makes sense. So like let's say from simple numbers if those numbers keep up it might
be something like we're emitting you you know, 100 whatever per month,
I'm just making up units here, 100 units,
but we're burning 150 units.
And yeah, no other decks in history
that I know of has been deflationary.
And we've had lots of decks like Pancake
burning lots of tokens, but Quick Swap
might actually become the first like fully sustainable and deflationary decks in the world which is pretty cool
pretty damn cool. We announced 2% four days ago and we're on 2.1% already.
2.1% what? Already so we burned I think what 1 million tokens in the last four
days. Oh you're saying we are we've
were we've burnt 2% of the supply yeah so right now oh wow 2.1% of the total
supply but as of four days ago it was 2% but now it's 2.1 so yeah holy shit
wow that's incredible yeah I've been waiting and wondering when this could happen for the
industry because to this point it's just a bunch of DEXs and DeFi protocols like basically
who can emit more tokens to basically to attract users and it's like a battle for market share.
It's just like when PayPal and eBay were giving out money for people to sign share. It's just like when you know, PayPal and eBay were,
you know, giving out money for people to sign up. It's a similar thing. But for DeFi protocols
to actually become deflationary or even just break even, I think is a huge win. And that's
for the token holders. That's not including the massive amount of revenue that's given
to the LPs, etc. I mean, QuickSwap in its first year generated 100 million US dollars worth of revenue
that was given to the LPs and the token holders through staking and the foundation for development.
Pretty cool stuff. Yeah, I mean right now I think we're 175, 78 million complete revenue as per DeFi Llama.
And yeah, I mean three times any other DEX on the chain. I think 150% more than AVI.
And Polygon hit I think 5 billion transactions last week. QuickSwap is 1.2% of all of those. Wait, 1.2% of 5?
No, it's more than that. Yeah, no, it's roughly, I think the V2, rather than 56 million
transactions, the, yeah, so it's roughly, yeah. That doesn't make sense. How could
QuickSwap only be 1% of polygon transactions when it's like a large portion of the revenue and at one point it was like 80% of the transactions on polygon for the first years?
Yeah, we didn't analyze the sort of tertiary like syrups and like farm contracts and stuff, but yeah, just swaps 1.2% of all of polygon transactions. and the million transactions a day at one point. How is that possible that we only have, what's 1% of 5 billion is 50 million? And we were doing, we were doing at some points, I think
like 2 million transactions a day. How can we only have 50 million total transactions?
That doesn't make any sense. Something's got to be off there. But anyways, what were you
saying, Alex? While you are math-ing your math, I just wanted to put this little post up at the top
that was in my, I have a back chat for my,
for my, what do you call them, my subscribers
that is pretty damn funny.
And one of them put this in there, this incredible tweet,
which I know you guys are closing, and one of them put this in there, this incredible tweet,
which I know you guys are closing, but I have to share because it is an epic discussion.
This is the end of an epic discussion.
I don't know if you guys know this,
Klarna and DoorDash and someone else are getting together
to do buy now, pay later food, right?
And I guess it's somebody who sells burritos.
And so which I think is there was this discussion apparently that ended up happening about whether
or not the risk was acceptable.
Because how can they do that, right?
It's no longer layaway, right?
It's buy now pay later.
The issue is, of course, you can't really reclaim
the burrito. And so they were saying, well, what should you pull the risk? And then how
could we basically allocate this risk? And so this idea was pretty funny that they were
now talking about tokenizing the risk and figuring out how to collateralize these risks by creating
these securities, saying collateralized burrito-backed securities, where they pool the risk of these
burritos that are by now pay later and essentially try to eliminate the risk by getting some
people who will possibly repay, people who will not repay. I thought this entire discussion is hysterical, but honestly, fundamentally, people are starting to understand the idea
of risk allocation, which I thought was awesome. And this is so funny. So all the people in
high finance who don't think that people who are, you know, gen pop could possibly understand risk or risk allocation.
They are wrong, right?
People can't understand this.
And this whole discussion that ends up
in collateralized burrito back securities
is kind of an in your face discussion.
But I think that this is hysterical.
This idea that now we could end up having this sort of
traded, you know, thing that passes along these things.
And someone genuinely asked me, could we ever have these?
And I said, no, burritos are not a great tradeable security
because they degrade over time.
You can't have traded and retraded burritos
unless they were frozen.
Frozen burrito, collateralized burrito-backed securities,
well, now we have something that we could possibly do. Anyway, this is now an ongoing discussion.
Please feel free to share your thoughts.
This is a pretty epic thing
and you'll learn so much about risk.
But it's so funny.
But I love that everybody can be involved in
this discussion and understanding exactly how in finance,
people try to group together risk and try to mitigate
So this is great.
Anyway, I thought it was a great discussion and kind of a sort of like this is where we
are right now.
Alex, do you like frozen burritos?
Because I'm a peasant.
I love them.
Do you really? I do. Do you really? What brand do you like frozen burritos? Because I'm a peasant and I love them. Do you really?
I do.
Do you really?
What brand do you like?
Like the cheapest possible ones.
Let me go find.
Are you like a gas station burrito guy?
Oh come on.
You know what?
They had these ones.
Are you really?
You're so silly.
Oh my gosh.
I haven't had a gas station burrito in probably five years. But you know what? I might have to go find one just because I'm fasting right now, so I'm starving
maybe that's why but no they had these ones called the bomb burritos in California and
They had like all this cheese. Oh, they were great. Yeah, they made you drop a bomb later Fast-growing testinal tract of steel. That is awful. I don't think there's any food in those.
You know what that is. It's mostly ground up. It's like soy and like ground up
newspaper and gym mats, old gym mats. I think there's stuff of something in there.
Yeah, Cindy makes fun of me anytime I make a microwave frozen
burrito and I love them with some nice sriracha tapat numb! And anyone that's listened to this station before... But you're like, it's delicious!
Obviously, Rock can get really enthusiastic about stuff.
He gets really, really enthusiastic.
But the most, like, anytime I'm on a call with him, I'm like, I'm gonna have to buy that thing he was just talking about.
He's like, great salesman. Okay.
But the most enthusiastic I've ever seen him was when McDonald's announced the McRib.
Like he was completely derailed like two calls about it.
Why does it look rib shaped? That's what I don't understand. There's no bones in there,
but they have like bone shape. Like what is that?
Oh, it's delicious. The McRibib if you don't like the McRib
I swear people they say they don't like things because it's unhealthy or uncool
or it's poor or something but I swear if you take a bite of a McRib and you don't
like it there's something wrong with you I just I don't believe people who say
they don't like the McRib it's delicious. I got such bad food poisoning at McDonald's. I am
not a fan. I got like the worst, when I was in law school, I got the worst case of food poisoning
of my life there. I had my last exam my first year and my evidence professor sent me home. He's
like, you are green. You have to go home. And I was like, no, I got to take my exam because I
was wanting to be done with my first year. So he sent me home and I had and I literally I think I threw up for 24 straight hours
But can you deny can you deny that McDonald's is delicious
We're talking about on the way in, not on the way back in.
I'm such a peasant that like on my deathbed, you know, I could be a millionaire and I would
still on my deathbed probably get like Jack in the Box or McDonald's or something.
Maybe some In-N-Out.
In-N-Out is epic. In-and-out doesn't count.
That's my daughter. Does she yell I love in-and-out? She just yelled I love in-and-out.
See kids are honest. They're not all boozy. She loves in and out. It's the
worst. She loves in and out. It's the worst. We drive by and she's like in and out. It's
the worst. Wait are you saying you don't like in and out? No I'm saying like how is feeding
a child making sure your child eats healthy When those kids are on your route is like the worst. I think I think it is next
You could make the argument you can make the argument that feeding your kids fast food is negligent or you can make the argument
That not feeding them some fast food is depriving them of their childhood. No, no, no.
Look at her.
Shut up.
You're giving my kids fuel.
Stop it.
I'm undermining Alex's parenting live on stage.
No, no.
So we, no, no.
It's okay for them to eat it because here's what happened.
My first year in college, I don't know if this happened to anybody else,
but like all the kids that were like totally monitored,
they went buck wild their first year.
So I will never do that to my kids
because they're the ones who were like in jail,
drinking till they passed out all the time,
eating like garbage every,
so I will not do that to my kids
because they are uncontained
as soon as they're out in the world.
So I will not do that to my kids.
I'm sorry, this sounds like an argument
to go get her in and out.
Hey, yes, this is so true though.
Cindy says this often when we're talking about
when we have kids, how we're gonna feed them
or what rules we're gonna have.
And she says all of her friends,
so her family members, her cousins, they, a lot of them were not allowed to have soda as kids and now they
all love soda, they're drinking all this soda as adults, whereas Cindy and her brother, they were
allowed to have it and none of them drink any soda now as adults. They're like, that's crap, I don't
want to drink that. So it's kind of funny when you deprive people of stuff
and you make all these rules,
it makes them want it more in many cases.
A hundred percent.
Like there are, I knew kids when I was little,
like there was this one kid,
and this is not common when I was little,
but there was that one kid who couldn't eat any candy.
And literally when we would like have a sleepover,
that one kid was
like living in the cabinet of whoever's house
it's like gorging themselves on cookies and stuff I'm like that can't be good like I know you're 12 and I'm 12
all those Oreos at one time like aren't you gonna choke or something?
They developed the worst eating
habits because of their, you know, like you just can't deprive people because that's all that they
think of. So they're in the corner eating like gorging like a golem from Lord of the Rings when
he's ripping into a raw fish. Oh totally and it's awful. It looks really, I mean it's awful
and then they always they end up having like weight issues and stuff like that, but it's literally like,
don't go near her face, she will bite you.
Like, it's not good.
I saw a sort of, there was a guest on the All In podcast
talking about this book that came out
from this famous investor about parenting.
And Naval Ravikant was talking about this and saying,
he doesn't put a lot of rules on his
kids because you kind of want to teach them agency, like their own accountability.
And if, okay, if you want to stay up late, okay, but you're not going to feel good at
school the next day.
Or if you eat this crappy food, you're not going to feel so good.
And you kind of want to let them learn this stuff just like as if they were an adult as kids and give them guidance.
Explain to them why fast food is bad.
Like you don't want to get cancer.
You don't want to die early, you know, and show them studies, maybe whatever.
But if you make all these rules on them, you're not teaching them agency.
It's kind of like my opinion on the government.
When the government puts these accredited investor laws and all these things, we don't
learn how to invest.
We just get barred from investing.
And then we go do stupid shit, like buy some pump and dump meme coins because we didn't
know better.
We never learned.
100%.
I mean, I'm a huge believer in natural consequences.
Like that's, that's the thing is like, look, you can, you can do that.
You can stay up later, but you know, you are going to have a really hard time getting up.
And that's what I say is like, when they're like,
oh, I'm so tired, oh, sucks to be you,
guess you'll go to bed earlier, right?
Like I don't have sympathy,
and I'm the meanest mommy in all the land,
but it's like, well, that's what happens.
I told you this is what was gonna happen.
Cause I don't think kids are stupid.
They're just like inexperienced, right?
They just haven't experienced all the things.
So you tell them, you know, look, if you want to learn vicariously, I will tell you what
will happen.
But sometimes people don't learn vicariously.
They need to experience it firsthand.
So as long as it's not dangerous, I'm like, okay, see what happens.
See what happens.
You don't want to drink that soda and then go on the roller
coaster. Go ahead, see what happens. I'm not sitting in
front of you. But see what happens. You know, but you know,
I just I think that a lot of things are, you know, like I am
also one of the people who like, you know, you think you don't
study for the, you know, when they get to a certain age, if
you think you don't need to study, you think that's
efficient studying, go take the test. But certain age, if you think you don't need to study, you think that's sufficient studying, go take the test.
But my kids are crushed if they don't.
It's like, okay, well, that's how you know that wasn't enough studying.
So I'm not like you have to get an A on every test.
It's like, no, this is how you learn how to study.
This is how you learn how much studying you need to do.
What is the proper procedure for you?
This is also why I think there shouldn't be
in a credit investor role, I completely agree with you.
You have to see, this is how you learn,
I will tell you what questions you should ask
and what you need to know.
But if you don't wanna know
and you just wanna try it yourself, go ahead.
But then learn from the mistake that you made, right?
If you lost your money, look at what happened and say, what could I have learned?
What could I have known that would have shown me in advance that this was not an investment
that would have worked out?
The people who don't learn vicariously are the ones who don't look at the failures and
understand why it was a failure.
Like if you're just fucking up all the time, then that's on you.
But if you're taking that information and you're figuring out why it didn't work, what
happened, what went wrong, then that's a valid way to learn, in my opinion.
That's just my opinion.
A hundred percent. I mean, there's, I always say there's three tiers of people, I think.
You have people who do not learn from their own mistakes. That's the worst.
You make mistakes and you don't learn. You continue to commit those mistakes.
Then there's people that do learn from their mistakes. That's, that's a good thing.
And then the smartest people, in my opinion,
are the people who learn from others' mistakes.
You read books about trading or investing
before you have to lose lots of money doing it,
or you paper trade is another way you could do that,
but learning from other people's mistakes is the best way.
Don't get a DUI to figure out that getting a DUI
really sucks.
You want to, and by the way, I got a DUI,
and it really sucked not being able to drive.
So don't learn from, you know,
there's a lot of things in life
it's better to learn from someone else.
Just learn their, listen to their stories, read books,
listen to other people's accounts,
learn, keep the smartest people you can nearby
and around you so you can watch them and take
their advice.
If you don't have access to high level super smart people or investors or entrepreneurs
or health and wellness or whatever, then the beautiful thing is they always say things
like your income is the average of the five or six people you have around you.
I say your knowledge is the average of the five or six people you have around you. Your and I say your knowledge is the average of the five or six people
you have around you. But if you don't have great people around you that's okay because we have the
internet now and you can read books, you can listen to podcasts and you can make those the people you
hang out with the most. These really smart people that have had these great life lessons.
100% agree which is weird for us, right?
Well, we agree, let your kids eat trash once in a while, but we don't agree on the burritos.
You got to go try one though, those frozen burritos.
I can't. I can't. Especially not like like a drug store gas station. One of those like teepee burritos.
I can't, I can't, I can't.
All I see is that Pooh's burritos that are like, you know, like the,
like furry.
What from the Simpsons?
You know where he's like, there's one episode where he's like, he's like, you know,
like Homer, I made these for you.
And then, and then you say close up and they're like all like, there's like fur and stuff.
There's like, you know, there's like fur and stuff sticking up and it's like, it's like
all old and stuff.
I just can't, I can't possibly, I can't.
Has anyone else ever gone?
This is a somewhat common thing with me is like, I'll take Cindy likes fancy stuff.
I don't care.
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Speaker
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