Caesar, what's going on, man?
Couple people invite and then we'll be ready to rock and roll. I think you got both your mics on or something. There's an echo
There we go, yeah, thanks for calling that out
typical Twitter troubles, but how do you
I'm all right. I've been kind of tired lately. I don't know what it is, man
I don't know. It's spring winter something like that, or I don't know it just
Maybe too too too many carbs and stuff, right?
When she's done with the keto and stuff and do many sandwiches
I don't actually eat sandwiches very much
Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty crazy cuz like I like I'm like cyclical keto
So I try not to eat any carbs like especially like wheat like bread. Yeah. Yeah flour pasta this stuff like
Sluzzy down so much any kind of starch. It's just like a energy killer for me
Yeah, like I like sweet potato like that stuff is like gold, right?
But uh, like I won't eat it all day long. Just like once one meal a day. Usually I'll take some carbs
but you know you go to like hotels or you go out for
dinner or lunch or something and it's just it's just
you can't you know you like look at the the
Menu and there's like pizza hamburgers and all this stuff or you know risotto or whatever, right? But there's never like
You know like a nice you never want to buy just a salad from like a restaurant
You want to experience something that's like super tasty and stuff, right? Mm-hmm
You can't just get like like what I'll eat for lunch. Usually it's like
You know fry onions and Brussels sprouts and ground beef or something like that
And like that's about it. Like, you know, there's some oil some salt but not a whole bunch of like
sauces like, you know, so I
It's hard to find stuff like that when you go out
So yeah, yeah, I'm going out of it and it's just
Yeah, I'm with you, man. I try to clean
you know learned over the years what burns clean and what doesn't and
Keto is one of those things that is addicting too because once you start it getting that
nine calories per gram of
energy from all the fat, but then you go back to
carb diet or protein heavy diet and then it nerfs that energy nukes it so
Yeah, and and when you you know when you're going out, it's it's even harder to find those keto options and things. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah
Yeah, well, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say like you go to Costco or something
It's like there's nothing there to eat. That's keto like you have pizza or hot dogs or something, you know
Cool I think we're gonna get
Like a couple couple people filtering in here, but I'm gonna get started give me one second finish typing a bit and then
This is a new Twitter account though, I
Yeah, so I had another Twitter account
Well, it depends token dynamics or eat sleep crypto. No. Yeah token dynamics
Yeah, so three hundred followers or something
Yeah, token dynamics is newer. So when we had
We started token dynamics in July
I've been doing some of this before then and obviously writing about tokenomics and things for a lot longer than that but
Yeah, it started to starting to build it out because I had so many people coming to me
I'm sure you've had people
You asking like how did you learn this stuff? How can I win on this stuff?
And I was like, well, wouldn't it be cool if I could just put all of these people on projects and then
Eventually upskill them so that we could be a team doing the kind of work that I've already been doing with token design
Protocol design economic security and all of this stuff. So maybe
You know, maybe you've had a similar story. I'm curious
What was your DeFi journey? How have you gotten into crypto and what does that look like over time? How is that evolved?
Um, I could get into this but like it kind of sounds like we're getting started
You want to finish typing and then then we'll actually jump into that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm actually good to go. So
Yeah, tell me what what's your DeFi journey been like? How have you gotten involved in DeFi and what's that process been like for you?
It goes back. I'll go like I started crypto
I discovered aetherium at Bitcoin at the bottom of the kovat crash Wow
so I was super lucky in that sense, but
If I had to discovered it like maybe two months earlier or a month earlier
I probably would have went all in on that like crash instead of like
Trickling in you know, it's just this thing just keeps going up
So I discovered it then and I was like just doing like stocks on like eToro and stuff and eToro had some crypto
so I was like, I'll play with this aetherium and
Bitcoin and a few like of those old-school blue chips, right?
You know, I just kind of was there working, you know, I had a day job
I was a teacher at that time. So I had lots of office hours and I
Would just like oh this thing just keeps going up, right? So then like well, what is it, right?
So then I start researching like what is a theory and what is Bitcoin?
What are the differences and then once you find aetherium
Then you find so much right like aetherium
there's just so much to learn so much to like discover and so much to
To just innovate and do on aetherium, right?
So once I found aetherium and I started digging deeper in aetherium
I started finding like, you know DeFi at that time was you know, there was there wasn't much
There was like uniswap curve sushi swap
Like just like, you know food coins and stuff like this and then like
Pancake swap came around and Binance Smart Chain launched and all this so kind of like
You know, I kind of started with DeFi as DeFi started to some extent
Like I never I never used compound finance and I've actually never deposited funds into Ava either directly, right?
Because I just don't need it, right? I don't I like it's it's kind of
It was kind of beyond my my scale like it didn't make sense to like, you know deposit a thousand dollars into
Mainnet, you know, it just doesn't it's stupid, right? It just doesn't make sense, right? So
You know, I just kind of started off there like, you know discovered it through through
discovering aetherium and then
Just I enjoy it. Like I think it's cool and and stuff like that. Is
Yeah, of course, so that's wild that you got in and you're afraid at the peak like at the bottom of
The bear market basically, you know that was on the way up
Yeah, everything after that was like a year and a half of all only up right? It was it was quite good, right?
So like I said, it was super lucky, but I wish I'd gone all-in like but I'm pretty conservative. I'm pretty like
Like I I don't take a lot of risk and that's maybe why I'm able to like grind it out because I don't take a lot
Of risk like even like if I'm trading perps, you know
Like I only trade like 300 bucks or so perps and I'll take profit when it's like 50 bucks
You know, I don't you know, it's just like
I really try to keep that risk level down as as much as I can
that seems to be a hallmark of token economists as people that are thinking about the
You know, we're not going for a hundred acts. We'll take a modest 5x and be happy
well, even a 5x would be is pretty juicy, right like
Would say like I'm happy just
Stacking gway, you know, you know what I mean? Like of course I have some Bitcoin to like squirreled away, right?
but like I'm just I'm happy just like
You know finding yield on aetherium and stable coins and occasionally having you know
like some shit coin exposure because it's kind of
it's just you're you're leaving money on the table, but like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take one ease and buy
You know meme coin that just launched. I won't do this like I've done it a few times
But like every time it's just like that was the stupidest thing
And you know people will always say to me
No, you got to just do a whole bunch of them and then one of them will moon so much
it make up for all the losses, but to me that sounds like
super high risk right like why not just
not take that risk and just
Like stack aetherium and you know occasionally like, you know
Maybe you farm some reward token and instead of immediately compounding it you hold it and then when it moons
Like that makes sense to me that makes a lot of sense, but not so much
you know take my theory of buy that coin and
Then hope it moons and then try to sell it because so many tokens don't moon right like
You know, there are moons if you listen to crypto Twitter
It's just rampant with like all look at how much money I made look at look at this chart
Look at this is everything's green green green green, but there's for every one green. There's like a hundred, you know death spirals, right?
You just it's super hard and it they're all rigged to like all those meme coins. They're just like
they're they're rigged in a sense of like
They they pump because somebody
has a shit ton of money and
Is really good at like shilling? You know what I mean?
So they they pump it for they pump it they create FOMO everyone jumps on they keep pumping it
there people start pumping it and then they start exiting usually or or somewhat like there are of course not you can't paint every
meme coin with this picture, but
Most of them you can write
Meme coins are risk-adjusted right like you're you're buying something that has the hundred X or a thousand X potential
But for every thousand of them, you'll see one succeed or maybe less
Like it you never know that you'd have to really do some deep statistics to find out the exact like ratio
But I would totally be comfortable with like one to one thousand, you know, like that's that's definite
Like I've launched a few meme coins myself in in some senses like I always try to make them like
Cuz I code as well. I've taught myself solidity since
Since that COVID crash, so I also
Coded and launched meme coins myself, but I'm really bad at like telling people to buy shit. I don't like that
I don't like the feeling of like hey use your money to do this. I don't want to do that to anybody, right?
so I always like launched them and kind of just like hoped the community would just
Take over and run it but they they just they don't get any traction and stuff like that
but I've always used like some sort of like
novelty to it like the last one I did it was a it was a tax token and
So what 1% was burned and 1% was sent to the last person who bought
So everyone who's selling is basically getting taxed and that's all that money is going to the last person who bought
and there was some other things in there like you had to buy at least one and
You couldn't like buy a little bit and then buy a lot
you know all these little features in there and it wasn't overly complicated like if you compare it to some of this stuff that
I've like made videos on it wasn't like and it wasn't even close, right?
It was just like a little but like nobody understood it and everybody's like I don't understand like
and I was just like man like so I think
Do like like keeping things simple is also very important for for exposure and for
Like adoption, you know what I mean? Like when thing when things get complicated
that they can be better but
Like there's so many opportunities
To make that like, you know 100x on some simple meme coin. That's just a basic like
ERC 20 with like a cat picture, right? Yeah
That they just like oh, well, why would I want to try to read and understand this system?
It doesn't make sense. Like I just
Bet on the cat picture. It's all fucking fake money. Anyways
so there's so many people that are in that kind of mindset that it's
It's really hard to get like the serious people to look at stuff that you you've done. So
Yeah, for sure mechanism design is a it's an underappreciated
You know good good mechanisms the mechanisms that catch on are not always good
And that's what what seems to me to be your specialty though is is deep diving
tokenomic mechanisms and understanding, you know who is using what
complex design and seeing into the nuances of those I came across your I think we first met on a
Space with Bancor's I think Mark Richardson and Paper Street who was in here and a couple other people
But I came across your YouTube independently recently as I was deep diving VE 3-3
and you had done an analysis or a recap of solidly and how that works and
So I'm glad we get to talk about this today
Maybe we can you know, I'm curious actually before asking a few questions about mechanisms broadly
What do you see as the stable state like the Nash equilibrium of that mechanism that you designed with the beam coin like at scale?
How would the people have behaved if that were like saturated with the gents?
We'll say the thing is like the point of it was
Like all of my little shit coins have been like thought experiments
Like I've actually had a goal inside. I wasn't just like I want to launch a meme coin
Like I I had a question that I wanted answered and my question was
Can will like incentivizing through natively through the taxes of buyers?
Create but more buyers right? Like that's what I hope to answer now. I have no idea because
The data is just there's like six people, you know
I mean who bought it, you know other than the people who tried to like, you know front-run the
liquidity pool, you know what I mean the
But so I I hoped that was I hope in that specific coin
Like I've done another one that I I launched as well
And it didn't it didn't even make it past like presale like kind of token general liquidity generation event
And it was like a quasi like stable coin
Volatile asset. It was an asset that can convert from from a volatile asset into a stable coin
When enough people join and they decide that they want to turn on the minter
And run though like the Forge basically, you know, like to mint and redeem and and stuff like that
Nobody maybe because it's on a I did it on mantle because I thought I would get some support from
From the people there at the projects there and stuff that I incorporated but I don't know it didn't work
So like I I've always tried to answer this question. So that specific meme coin
That was the question was like, let's let's see if incentivizing buying
Because every time someone like if you buy and then six people dump then you get 1% of everything that they dumped, right?
So that was the idea it was like with this
Create like buying opportune or buying hunger, right?
it might have been better if the token wasn't just a meme coin and just a tax token like if it was
part of some sort of system like like an emission reward token or
Pay to to use feature, you know, like some sort of access some service or feature by paying this token
Then maybe it would have had more utility it would had a utility then and maybe it would
Would achieve more but I wanted to just try to keep it simple to answer that simple question
But yeah, I I don't know. I don't feel confident to say
That I know the answer be a base because there wasn't any traffic and it just it just tapered off
And I the one thing I did learn was there's a whole lot of people who who like show up and want to be mods
Like for these projects a lot like I got so many messages
You need a mod you need a community manager or uh, and I actually hired two of two of them
they were like I thought like I thought of it like kind of like
Charity like somebody came to me and said hey listen
I know some guys who want to do this and I'm like, I don't know this project doesn't have any money, right?
And they're like, well, he owned they only want like $40 a week or something like that. And I was just like well
Like I figured, you know, it's kind of like if these guys are willing to work for $40 a week then
Then maybe that's quite nice of like it's like a chair like, you know that they I'm helping somebody, you know what I mean?
Well, they they obviously there was still no effect like in the sense of they're basically GMing each other
Yeah, 40 bucks like to post GM into a discord
Yeah, like when people did show up like when there was like, you know, some people come into the discord, you know, there was some
You know there was some like a little bit of chatting but not not much right and there were people who showed up and just like
You know you pay me and all you know 100x your your your just your discord or your telegram all
You know mash up like funds of people I'm like, but it doesn't matter like who's gonna buy the token who's gonna trade the token
That's what matters. Yeah, and you're paying 40 bucks a week for a hundred when tokens and a hundred GMs in the discord
Yeah, exactly. And so he was like, you know, I'll if you pay me USDC, I'll say well, whatever
What if I pay you in token? He's like no, no, I it's you know
I know I don't take token because like all my work like if last time I take tokens, you know
The token goes down and all my work is for nothing
So I'm like what like you you don't believe in yourself and you want me to believe in you, you know
Like you you're saying that you're gonna make the project successful
The only thing that makes the project successful is trading volume on the coin because it's a tax coin
Yeah, and if nobody's gonna trade it and you're afraid that you're you know
I pay you in token and it's gonna go down in value
What's the point? It's like a marketer saying, you know, like I'll pay us and they're like, oh, well, you know
We we won't promise you that you'll get more sales
But we will promise you that you know people will read your
Advertisements, you know, like that's to me it just sounds sounds silly, right?
So there was a lot of this kind of stuff going on
I wasted so much time talking to people about this stupid stuff
You know, I kind of learned my lesson like it's not for me, you know what I mean?
Like I'm not gonna like launching mean coins and managing projects and stuff like that
Yeah, well like launching mean coins, right? Like I still manage other projects
I work with other teams and stuff like that and and like actual defy projects like AMAs and stuff, right? So
Like legitimate I was just doing this because it was like I coded this stuff
Do you know what I mean? And I'm not a full stack solidity dev or full stack dev I taught myself by
reading and just you know
coding and deploying and putting my own money in my own smart contracts and stuff and
You know getting things done
So I taught myself in that way and now I do have a lot of friends who like I can ask questions and they like
Oh, you got to change it to this. Oh, okay. Okay, you know, so I got help that way, but I didn't like I'm not
Traditionally educated as a dev right? I didn't you know study development in in a college or something, right?
It's really cool. I didn't know that you were also a full stack
Not a full stack but a self-taught salinity developer and you mentioned learning that through
Videos, but you also make videos on tokenomic mechanisms, right? How did you get into that? Like what what sparked that?
You mean the making the videos of the tokenomics? Yeah, like what what caused you, you know at what point did you start?
Deep diving protocols and then and then decide hey, I should make videos on this to explain them to other people
Well, I that's kind of where it all started. Like I I learned
about tokenomics and tokenomic design before I started salinity
coding right but I would say like I
Just wanted to understand like I'm a teacher by trade in the sense like by education
I've been a teacher for many many years. So I'm really good at like
Explaining things and I was teaching
Non native speaking non native speakers in English. So I'm very good at like simplifying
Concepts and making them easy to understand with a simplified language and stuff like that
So that's kind of what you know, a lot of devs, you know
Like you got all the autistic devs and stuff who are just like they can't explain it. They just they can just do it
so I kind of was the gap between that but the way I kind of looked at it was like I
Was I was hungry to learn these things like I wanted to understand them because if I understand them
Like I'm a fundamental investor per se like if I understand them
then I can kind of predict how things are gonna
Come like the outcome of things to some extent, of course, like obviously not you can't predict everything
But you know, they're if you understand how the system is gonna work
Then you can at least not get wrecked by making system errors, you know
like putting the wrong thing in the wrong place by mistake, right, so I
Just kind of researched it and like if I'm gonna read a white paper or a docs
I might as well I figured I might as well make a video like it does add quite a bit of time to that
To that that that endeavor right because you know a couple hours of making a video on top of just reading it, right?
But it kind of forces you to
To make sure you understand it as well
so like I would read the docs and then I would start making the flow chart or the design how I plan on
Would have as I'm making that I would you know stumble upon things that they didn't actually
Know so then I would dig a little deeper and find those answers so to speak
so it was a way for me to make sure I understood it that more than it was, you know, any kind of
business endeavor like I I
I'm very terrible at monetizing that like I didn't if you go through my channel like I
Would say 98% of those videos. I got nothing for them like no monetary like benefits at all and
Because I don't like it. I don't want like hey, you know pay me pay me and I'll make a video for you
I never wanted to do this
yeah, I just kind of figure, you know, like I
Could just make these videos and kind of
Raise the tide and then it will kind of
You know help out everyone and you know, there is karma. I've made a lot of friends
I can you know message people and they will answer me
because of this kind of I
guess charitable endeavor or
Yeah, that's about it. So that's kind of how it started and how it got going and stuff
Yeah, it's really cool. I mean, um, I completely agree on having that
additional component of teaching really solidify your knowledge and
That's a it's a cool motivation to be doing that. I'm I'm
sorry, you haven't made as much money and been able to monetize that because it's been such a public good for
I'd imagine a lot of people certainly for me
You know, I'd imagine they're sort of secondary things that
It have come from that do people do projects come to you now to illustrate or
Explain their tokenomics at all. Like have you been able to tap into that as a business or anything like that
well, like like I get messages all the time of like, oh there's this or that or
Hey, you know you want a video but I don't feel I don't really like feel comfortable saying like, you know
You pay me this and I'll do a video because I kind of feel like I I I have this I'm part of the
You know marketing should come like organically from communities and token holders and stuff like that
So I believe in this quite a bit
So when people come and they're like, hey, you know, you pay me and I'll do this or people will come and say hey
I'm always like well, let me look at the project and if like if I like it then I'll make a video and then
If you want to throw me some coins afterwards, then then that's all good, right?
I'll take donations in that sense
But you know 95% that goes to after the video is done right because you know, I'm not holding it hostage, right?
like maybe maybe it's you know, it's greedy of them or maybe it's just like
Negligent right like they might just forget right which is which is obviously
The case in many and many times right so, you know
I've tried to I've tried different systems to monetize it in some ways that are kind of more like donations and stuff like I made a
Like an NFT sandwich collection and I used to like tell people, you know
If you want to support the channel just pick up an NFT, right, but you know people don't
Want I don't know why why my NFT doesn't sell out but someone else's does right?
so because I think it comes down to like
Shilling basically or you know, like I said before, you know, like kind of insider games where someone has, you know
ten million dollars and they're willing to throw one million into some NFT project through like
Multiple wallets or something like that. I don't know right like obviously there are cases where you know pudgy penguins and
board yacht board board yacht eight clubs and stuff these guys like
they don't have success because of one guy, you know, or a couple guys pumping it but
like they they've grown to to to scale right but
You know, there's a lot of projects out there that I get yeah, I wouldn't even call them projects
but a lot of NFTs out there that
Are what I've described and and I didn't do that. So maybe maybe not maybe that's why it doesn't and I don't like
gain from you know what I mean? I like I tried to protect myself from the SEC in some ways like
you know, like I'm not like oh this thing's gonna print money because
Because it's gonna do this this this or the Treasury or blah blah blah, right? So I tried to avoid these kinds of
Systems and maybe that's why that could be could be the reason why
People were not interested in it or something. I don't know right? Well, I really respect that. You're not one of those typical
Man, I'm not even remembering some of their names
But I remember a lot of guys that you know on YouTube a few years ago that were just pushing
You know, they'd have the profile picture of them with their mouth open just pointing
you know pointing at whatever the logo is saying 10x or 100x on that the
Caption or the cover photo of the video and it's like you're not you're not doing that. We're actually deep-diving
tokenomic mechanisms understanding how they work and
Elaborating a little bit on what the future potential of those is but I really appreciate and take a similar approach where I like to understate
The impact or that the importance of a particular mechanism as it relates to price
Like if I'm talking about something, I'm gonna say this is a really cool mechanism
I'm not gonna weigh in on whether it's going to 100x the token or whatever
even though sometimes like the really interesting mechanisms and the things that I like to talk about are things that are gonna be
100x just by nature of their
Design because they have this really strong equilibrium state that drives a lot of demand to the token
Yeah, I mean so I've got a couple more thoughts on this, but I'll let you
Yeah, I agree with you in that like obviously
The the channels who say like, you know eat this and you will be
You know, you'll be Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, you know what I mean those channels that like just have a recipe that
you know people can just follow they will get some right and
Because they will get some right
They're their their influence grows right and then because their influence grows then they get more right because more people
Ape the shit like bit bit boy, right? He's a perfect example of someone who has no fucking idea
But says things and you know
50,000 people immediately buy because he said this coins gonna go
It's just like the shepherd who who who's leading all the sheep
of course the sheep are gonna follow the other sheep and and then you know into the slaughterhouse pretty much but
you know, you get the idea like that's and it's kind of sometimes it's
discouraging or or infuriating to like see like you know, it's these guys who are obviously just
shamelessly chilling, you know
Pump and dumping and just getting token allocation and dumping all over their followers
These guys who are doing this stuff
They they have so much more success like even just like, you know, the Google like YouTube ads like it probably
Like bit boys videos probably make him like a thousand bucks or two thousand bucks. Where's mine all month long?
I'll make like 20 bucks. You know what I mean in Google ads, you know, it's so like
It's kind of frustrating but like
You know, that's why I kind of thought of it
like, you know, like what's the point like I'll just make a video whenever I feel like it and if I
if I don't really feel like
Making videos for a while. I'll just stop right and this is kind of where I am right now
Like I'm pretty I'd say I'm tired a little bit like that would be a good
adjective, but at the same time, you know, I'm I'm quite busy to like
To make videos for other people, you know what I mean?
so I kind of but at the same time, you know, like I always thought of it like
like it's like an education like you know when you go to university and you got to write your thesis or you write your
Your your essays or whatever level you're at, right?
You don't you don't think about all right. This is gonna
You know, it's gonna make money. It's gonna do this. It's just like it's your education
you do the work you get you learn and then
Because you learn you become better in some ways and that's kind of the way I try to convince myself to keep going
But sometimes it's hard. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean another, you know side benefit of deep diving a lot of projects is you
understand what's likely to succeed and I think you probably have a
You know, I'm curious what things you're
You've been interested lately
interested in lately as as you've been away from making these videos making
You know less recently what?
What are some interesting mechanisms that you've seen in the last, you know six months to a year?
well, I would say the the most interesting things that like people do our
systems to that that encourage either buying or discouraged selling
these are the systems that
Like a defensive mechanism like sushi swap came out. It was just like
Free for all right like anyone just sell it sell it. It's just it's really hard to defend
That the only way the only mechanism they have to defend the price is buybacks with fees
Right and they're doing and they were doing them manually as far as I knew right like they might run a script
But it wasn't baked in right
Like when we talk about tokenomics generally like we're not talking about like the system that mints and redeems some sort of stablecoin
Or something like that. We're talking about governance tokens, right and governance tokens generally are for
Speculative speculative price action as well as like they're volatile generally, right? I haven't seen a governance token
That's actually a stable coin per se
There are some you know, like things where you can
Use the assets to vote if you're a token holder you you can vote like yearns why eat
Like that's kind of a governance token, but it's also the asset, right?
but for most part where we're talking about governance tokens, we're talking about some volatile asset that they minted out of fresh air and
they can kind of mint more usually or
sometimes not and you know, they're just trying to
To defend the price because generally speaking they're giving them out as rewards
mercenaries are dumping and
The people who are buying are asking why is the price going down?
So generally they the idea is to try to defend that price for them for the mechanisms
so options tokens do a pretty good job of it they
They kind of really penalty like a at velocimeter
One of the teams I work with they they have these options tokens and they're quite well. They work quite well because
they emit the options token and in order to
Redeem this token to the to the liquid token so you can sell so, you know yield aggregators as well as mercenary farmers
They're going to pay let's say we like East to
To redeem they're gonna get you know, let's say they pay one eighth. They're gonna get
1.01 e worth of tokens that they can sell right? So they're still making money, but that is going to the liquidity pool providers
So the liquidity pool providers get paid
by the people who are dumping on them and that is quite fantastic like I I've provided liquidity to all of their
Within about a month. I've all I've made back the the East that I put into the liquidity pool
I'd have to go through my records, but for example like on
On base, you know, they have BVM week
I I put like say like I say three East in there and
I got more than three East back in a month
From the people who are dumping and then there's I still have the liquidity pool with you know
Maybe by that time one point to eat or something, right because everyone's just dumping all over us, right?
So if this mechanism was quite nice these options tokens to defend these price. I
Is because it's like there's a fixed supply that they can never mint anymore and the system
And then puts the peas as rewards on the gauges and burns some to actually so
Like it's quite interesting. Like I've thought about this quite a bit now like like instead of like
Inflating tokens for four years or something like that
Just made them all at once
Then you just then nobody's has to think about inflation like it simplifies it
It's the same thing in some ways because you know, you just look at fully diluted value
It's it will be the same right because it is fully diluted or it's gonna be fully diluted
But if you use fully diluted value, it's the same numbers, right?
but if you mint them all at once and then you're just buying them and
Then sending them as rewards. That's quite nice because then you're not just minting and people selling minting selling minting selling
You're buying and then selling buying and selling so that pool is getting tons of trading volume, right?
And also it's you know defending the price to some extent like the the net is probably still a downward
For the most part, but you know
Then it just needs a few people to speculate, you know what I mean to do instead of you need an entire army
To to defend against the mercenaries dumping
So I I really like these ideas. I think they're both pretty cool
but you know, they they don't
There's nothing that beats like a simple, you know
Oh, I provide liquidity and I can do whatever I want with these rewards
Like if you look at like aerodrome or velodrome, they have a very simple, you know
we're gonna emit liquid tokens and people can do with them as they please and
Their price is quite good. So it's not that it doesn't work
Like it obviously works in some cases, but I think only it work. It only works at like large scale
like velodrome and aerodrome they they they ground through the
You know, they they did the work. I'm not saying that they're
They work only because they they have a large TVL like they started off small and they pushed right?
So they deserve where they are, right? I'm not saying they don't deserve it
The fact that they have such a huge TVL allows them to just emit liquid tokens without having to worry so much about defending the peg
because they produce so many fees and so many things right, so I
I think there's a lot of cool mechanisms out there. I could probably rant on forever, but I'll probably stop there at those two
That's interesting. I'm thinking about
In permanent loss and and how that might factor in
Any any sense for that like in this particular mechanism?
Like you mean like by increment loss you mean just like it's the net the net is down even though there is
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the the the opportunity costs that I think of in permanent loss like the opportunity costs of holding both assets
Yeah, like there's always impermanent loss and stuff like that, but that's kind of why I I like that
those options tokens that velocimeter why I've kind of believed in them and really supported them is because I
Was able to take weath out like I put like for example, I just throw numbers random numbers. I put three eth in
It's still printing eth for me, and I still have an LP, so I don't care about
Impermanent loss anymore. You know I've got my initial capital out already plus more
So it doesn't matter. I don't really have to worry about the impermanent loss of the reward token
That's like pretty much only down, but that's just
like it's probably the case because I
Was like one of the first people in the pool per se you know like I was early
When the APRs were high the reward like because it also depends a lot on
Like the exercise price is depending dependent on like how much eth you have to pay to exercise
The options token is based on the price of the liquid acid so as
That price goes down exercise cost goes down APR in weath goes down everything just goes down down
Like I definitely don't like saying like I don't like going to projects and going any project per se. I don't like taking my eth
using it to buy their token and then providing liquidity or
You know putting it into their system, and then hoping that the price
You know is goes up or at least maintains. It's it's level
I don't really like doing that
But that's kind of what a lot of projects are asking people to do you know what I mean by the token
provide liquidity and then
hope it kind of doesn't get nuked right and
That's kind of a system flaw, but that's pretty much everywhere like I can't think of like you can farm usually right you can
You know you can provide liquidity. Let's say let's let's say I don't velodrome
You could go to velodrome and be like oh, I've got some USDC. I've got some eth
I want to provide liquidity at this anyways
So I do it here, and I'll get velotokens on top, and then I'll do with those velotokens as I please
like this is this these opportunities are there, but you know the APRs on those generally are not as fancy or not as
You know just buying the shit coin and providing liquidity to that right, but it's a much harder game to win to
Trying to predict when the big selling is coming right and try to get out before the big selling
Like I've lost lots of money in defi like you know tombforks and shit like this, right?
Yeah, for sure, I mean, I feel like it's a giant a giant
Game of musical chairs a lot of the time with many mechanisms
but I'll have to look into velocimeter, and it looks like it sounds like just a
DE 3 3 kind of thought it is a VE 3 3, but it like it's a modular beast like I
Little extensions on it and stuff like it's pretty crazy stuff like and I think that's a good idea
Like and I think that's kind of maybe why it doesn't have
Mass adoption because it's like it's quite a
It's quite a beast. You know I mean like there's a lot a lot going on there
But I like I've made the videos for that is why you can just watch the videos and then you'll understand
That's probably enough. You don't have to risk capital per se
Yeah, I will check out those videos
What what other what other mechanisms that you people find popular? I'm curious like what?
What mechanisms you really like and think are underrated and which mechanisms you find?
popular and household names and things like that well make
Like solid the solidly model is based on the the VCR be right the the curved
Voting escrow and the curve voting escrow is kind of stuck. You know like they can't really change it, right?
They kind of stick with it and there is some flaws to it, but it's widely
like a money printer blue chip money printer right and
like the the main issue that like solidly had with
The BEC RV was that like there was no focus
You know, it was like it didn't matter
Which pools you voted on you're gonna get your share of the fees, right?
So they kind of tried to change that with the solidly to change it to like
Oh, you only get the fees of what you vote on so you better vote on good stuff
Right instead of those pools that sit there and do nothing right that don't produce any fees
so that that the idea was to fix that mechanism and I think it has like if you look at a lot of the
Dexes all over the place the ones like especially the ones using concentrated liquidity now
They they are people are voting on
The stuff that is producing money like there is still a lot of bribe
Can't contamination like if there is no bribes
You would really see only the pools that have training volume are the ones that get votes
Right, but you know they it's kind of contaminated with like with bribes and stuff like that that that question of is this thing
Kind of gets contaminated with those bribes
You know what I mean, like it's like people want bribes and bribes work
But it kind of skews the the results of the question of whether or not people are voting on volume based pools, right?
like these systems that are like the these stable coins that allow for
Like anonymous redemptions like
You know like like liquidity liquidity and all of its forks
Anja ajna. Oh, yeah ajna the oracle lists. I don't know how to pronounce it either. Yeah
Really like this thing like you, you know, you have to burn the the governance token in order to do look
Redemptions or liquidations. I can't remember. I think liquidations, right? Am I right? You know, I forget whether it's a burn on
I thought it was a burn a fee burn or something
No, I'm pretty sure like you have to like it's pretty cool
Like you have to burn the token in order to liquidate someone I think or redeem them. I'm pretty sure it's liquidate, right?
I'd have to double-check right? So in order so you have to buy the reward token
To liquidate someone and obviously you're gonna make money because you're liquidating someone, right?
like and then the thing that they did that was really cool was like
Instead of like having this this this by the token system on all the other chains
what you do is you you you burn the tokens on mainnet and
Then you bridge this like receipt token that oh I did burn tokens
They bridge that to the other chains and then you can use that on the other chains to perform that liquidation or
Redemption, whatever it may be
so I think this is really clever because instead of like having burning all all on all these different chains or having like
Having to bridge, you know assets back to mainnet and do big burns
You have the the the community the the liquidators
Just kind of doing it themselves
They burn on mainnet and then they take that receipt token to other chains and when there's an opportunity
They they can use that receipt token to to to access that that ability
so I think this is really clever and it's definitely something that's interesting and new and
It it kind of appeals to me in a sense of like
you know, it's different and it's cool and it's clever and
Will it be the you know, the bees knees that I don't know, but it's it's definitely something worth
Yeah, I've met protocol is in that category of oracle lists protocols that I think
personally, I find the most interesting of anything out there the others that we've seen are like
Door chain is an oracle list protocol where it has its own internal oracle, you know references its own
Liquidity for prices of room and then uses that to determine no bonding requirements
And then you've got ajna which is a popular one. There's another funding market called a hoyu that we've done some work with
That is another interesting
Protocol to to look into they have
Determined by the depth of the protocol zone and m pools and then they're lending pools that can be deposited into
To to borrow against and that's all
Determined so that you know, it's algorithmically determined so that there's no possibility of bad debt in the system
Yeah, this makes sense like it's kind of I don't like that you but you've just described is in that
It's it's it's pretty isolated
Like it would be way better if they were looking at uniswap curve. It'd be awesome, right?
Because yeah, you have all that liquidity, but the problem with those is that you could just
Manipulate it by depositing a large amount of the token into the pool and with trying it
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, they can't predict when people are like do they lock if you put your liquid
It opens in the liquidity. It gets locked. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, it's a seven-day withdrawal period and that initiation of a withdrawal of LP tokens
like a burn of the LP tokens is a signal to anybody else and
Interested or invested in the token that somebody's probably gonna sell the LP reserves. So it's
Yeah, yeah, and I I would guess the collateral ratio would then adjust and
Interest rates would go up because this guy's the liquidity is about to exit, right?
Yeah, exactly. It actually rather than changing the collateral ratio, which is an interesting consideration
You know, that'd be more like a liquidy type
System they just liquidate the people. Well, maybe this is more like liquidy
they liquidate the lowest collateralized CDPs and
the amount of available funds to borrow is
Decreased if there is less liquidity
So yeah, that's smart. Yeah, that's smart stuff. Yeah, I like that
There's another oracle list lender called time swap time swap. I gotta check them out then
Yeah, it's basically like based on AMA design like constant product AMA design
Mm-hmm. And so instead of like
Instead of collateral ratios and stuff
It just like it uses time like you you have to repay your debt by this time
If not, you get liquidated so it's it's clever. I'm kind of surprised. Nobody's built that yet. That's really cool
It's that they've done this
Well, it's it's it's built like it's it's right running for a good six eight months or something
Long time actually. Yeah, I mean just before that because it seems like kind of an obvious thing and one thing that I
Starting to pick up on and in general like good mechanism of designs do use time like they incorporate time somehow
That's enough opportunity for protocols to build better despite
Leveraging the time value of money or otherwise just incorporating some time element to their protocol. Yeah. Yeah instead of yeah
I I think it's interesting like especially for like levering up and stuff like if you want to lever and
Like for example like liquidity LUSD and stuff like it doesn't really work too well for short term, right?
It's quite good for long term because you you know, you have to pay that fees
Yeah, that that that borrow fee right as opposed to interest
but like, you know if you're gonna just like
you know borrow versus a big bag of ETH and use that money to like
You know get a mortgage or or you know something like this, right?
Something yeah, like long term in that sense then that it makes a lot of sense, right? Yeah agreed
Yeah, so well, yeah, I've unfortunately got a hard stop and I'm enjoying our conversation about mechanisms and everything
but maybe to leave off like where
Where can we point people and have enjoyed this combo to listen to you and find more of your work?
Well, like I said, my channel is always there. It's a public good
You know you do with it as you please, you know add it to your docs
I don't care right like you just use it right
That's kind of is I kind of consider it like a like a library like if people like without government funding
Right, so I kind of consider a library in that sense. So
There's like I guess, you know, I guess I can say Google in the more people whose visit my library Google will pay me
So I do post them on my Twitter account when I when I make videos
But the Twitter is doesn't have a very good archive
So, you know to access my archive, it's best to go to my YouTube channel, which is
Caesar my name is C-e-a-z-o-r
Snack sandwich Caesar snack sandwich if you just put C-e-a-z-o-r and then like whatever protocol you're looking for
Then generally if I have a video, it'll be the first one on the list, right?
So my name and then the name of the protocol
Yeah, so that's kind of what that works. You can always make people can DM me my DMS are generally open
People I accept DMS from people all the time this a lot of time it's time wasted
But a lot of other times I have enjoyable conversations like like what we had today
so yeah, I would say that's that's probably the best thing to do like
But I always like I always say my videos if like you want to know if you want to put money in a protocol
Read it right like make sure you understand something and then you do it, right?
And if that's too much effort people can watch the videos which I'd highly recommend because your videos are fantastic
I really benefited a lot from them and so I appreciate it. I appreciate the public good that you
provided to all of all the D5 degens
Yeah, no, thanks. So me too, you know, like I wanted to understand them
So let's get good thing you've been able to find that win-win situation
That's it's a virtue of a token economist. So I appreciate the conversation as well today Caesar
Thanks so much for coming on and looking forward to working with you in the future and hoping the loop you've been on
Some things we'll talk about in the background. But um, yeah, man great talking with you today and
And let's let's catch up soon
Yeah, yeah, it sounds great. You can you know, like I said DMS are open. Just hit me up
You should hit me on telegram though and set up instead of
Twitter I'll send you my telegram just to make sure you have it there and then perfect. It'll be a little easier
Awesome. All right. Thanks a ton man. And thanks everyone for coming in and and joining the space
We'll catch you all later and Caesar. Thank you very much. Hmm. Thank you. Cheers. Have a great one date you too