hey guys we're just going to give it five minutes
you guys hear the background music that's playing
I actually don't hear any background music
I'm trying to play around with this new setting on
on on Twitter and yeah I don't know if it's
man yeah it says that it should be playing but I guess that's better for you
yeah let's give it one more minute and we'll get started
cool why don't we go ahead and get started and then we can
yeah and then more people will likely just keep going in as you continue to go from here
so how's everyone doing today
cool so appreciate everyone's time today
appreciate everyone being able to join
so we've got a panel today which you know is pretty epic
we're going to spend some time talking about you know
tragedy management in the crypto space
and as well as just kind of
some best practices that we've been seeing
just happening across the space
so who better to kind of walk us through that
than guys who are actually doing it themselves
and you know just speak into tons and tons of other protocols
DAOs companies about it all
so without further ado I'll pass it over to our speakers
why don't we go ahead and just you know do like a quick
intro of your background what you currently do
what your company does and how you got into crypto
so Bruno why don't you just go ahead and get us kicked off
sure yeah my name is Bruno
I run a company called Magna
we do token investing and token unlocks
airdrops streaming for protocols
got into crypto originally as a retail investor
buying some Bitcoin back in 2014
some ETH back in 2016, 2017
and then really as a builder two years ago
when we started Magna and you know since then
basically then you know all in on crypto
went down the rabbit hole and never looked back
and you know we work across Ethereum, EVM chain, Solana
now Aptos so yeah it's been a lot of fun in the ecosystem
going through the ups and the downs and now for the ups again
I'm personally a big fan of the Aptos ecosystem as well
my pro pop text the Aptos monkey so
Marcelo how about yourself then?
so I joined crypto around
I did it in the beginning just to take money from Argentina
which I was living at the time
so crypto was it was Bitcoin it was a tool
but then I found there was some arbitrage opportunities
between Argentina the US and also Europe
so that's how I started then I started managing my own funds
DeFi I also work on Ethereum core development for some time
and then I founded Carpadkey
which helps DeFi protocols for the most part to manage their treasuries
that's incredible yeah actually really funny story
which I gotta tell you later I had a buddy of mine
back in like 2017 or 2018 who lived in Brazil
who is literally arbitraging the price of Bitcoin and cash
by flying from Brazil to Argentina with like just suitcases of cash
and then just kind of you know buying it all like various exchanges
and bringing it back and just clipping the spread
but that's really cool that you and Francis Morris doing the same thing
yes yes we have a lot of crazy situations
when we have a lot of capital controls
same thing happened in Korea with the kimchi premium
and last but not least Morten how is that man
I look after treasury and investments financing
your leading analytics platform for data-driven investors
I've been with them for about two years
before that I was a trader for 10 years
first for futures desk in London
and then I spent eight years traveling
around the globe with the sovereign wealth fund of Norway
I've always loved trading
probably picked up ETH in 2016
I remember trading ICOs on forum
and Poloniex and stuff like that
and since we're on sort of currency
our pair I remember I did some
gap trading on ETH versus Pounds
on Kraken back in the day
and I guess this is free FTX for all of us
so that's that's the good old days
and then I took a long two-year break
when I first realized I could be doing
100 times better than sort of 25 basis points
strategies between US Treasuries and Japanese bonds
are in DeFi if I if I did that full-time
and so on the same time I met
nonsense founder Alex and that's how I got
and I guess for full disclosure
I unfortunately was never informed that we were all supposed to buy
pudgy penguins so I haven't retired early
and that's why I'm still here today
not buying pudgy penguins
I bought two so I'm very happy
meanwhile my like after monkey I'm just like come on man
like are you gonna rally or uh
I told my friends I'm like you know I sold all my Bitcoin in like 2015
so I'm just never selling anything ever again
yeah no definitely you gotta hold on for the long term
that's what I tell myself in a bear market anyway
but cool cool well look appreciate your time today
so obviously you know we have a lot of it a lot of experience
just a lot of you know skill sets on the panel today
so let's just dive straight into it right
I mean treasury management so this is very like
and it's also like a very contentious term right like
you know communities and founders and protocols all have
obviously varying opinions on what the right thing to do is
so amongst this umbrella of opinions
on what different tradities should do right
um do you guys think that there are
that everyone should be aware of
whoever wants to just kick us off feel free
I think here well blanket
recommendations just like for any
most important thing of the treasure is to make sure
you can fund your operations
so the easy one here make sure you have
you have the runway for at least
a year or at least you can make sure you get to the next
fundraising the next round
so that would be of course an easy one
100% your native token your big problems
right so you're likely don't have any treasury
um yeah there are still a lot of ways you can
use these funds for for grants
use these funds for market making if your token is transferable
also try to work on integrations
so maybe you can use it as a collateral
and you can fund your operations
but that would be likely yes very very
if I were to give it a go
you know try and tell you one
point that what you it shouldn't be
or what you shouldn't do and then maybe
one that that worked quite well for us
you know be honest with yourselves
what the treasure is for and
and there was two great points here
so whether this is just up to the
you know group of founders you already have a management team
but it's just the guy in ops that knows a bit of finance
and now he has to deal with the treasury
make sure you know what it's for
you're not a crypto hedge fund okay
you're not here to outperform Arthur from Defiance right
and in in my opinion you actually don't really have any business
predicting what's the next narrative
or you know say treasury borrowing demand
like your Arthur Hayes skiing and buying puts
I think you can have opinions on that
and you know take some views on your personal account
but likewise just shared the treasury I think is
is there to enable the business to achieve its goal
and make sure your bills and your colleagues gets paid
and I mean that's just before we even get into more specific details
that needs to be on the roadmap
the reason for that is and probably you guys have seen this too
you could end up with a let's say the CEO
not only is that a huge waste of time
or what could or was supposed to be a diversified portfolio
to prolong the runway ends up shortening it
which might have been in the middle of the bear market right
so I think that's the first conversation
what you're not and what you're supposed to be doing
and then the final nugget for me on sort of blanket practices
or ideas is and this worked really well for us
what or just figure out what's your product
or your company or your you know platform
speeder to the crypto market okay
what is your correlation to the market
from there on you can figure out
what beta should your treasure portfolio ideally be like
and I think that's a great starting point
it will vary between you being a crypto business
selling something to degens
or if you're a new lending platform
that basically all you rely on are fees from TVL
it will make a huge difference
what your portfolio should look like
and I guess the point I'm making is
diversification doesn't necessarily just mean
it might be something that goes up if your thing goes down
and then ideally it doesn't go down if your thing goes up well
and I think that's where the fun part of treasury management comes in to play
because you have to be creative depending on your business situation
so I'll stop there and go into details if that's later on
I think this is really great advice
believe somebody you see a founder trading with a treasure
you definitely have your priorities wrong
and you're not fulfilling your mission
but yeah I think this is great advice
yeah for sure and you know I think
a lot of what I say is going to double click on what you guys have already said
but when I think of a team treasury
I think the number one goal is usually to keep the money safe
and to preserve your runway
you should be making your money from your product
what you have out in the market not from your trading activity
and you never want to have to send that email to investors
and say hey look we had three years of runway
but now we have 12 months
because we made the wrong bets
the bet you should be making is on your team and your product
and you want to be able to sleep at night as executives
some other elements you want to reduce your operational overhead
if you can get 5% per year by setting it and forgetting it
versus 5.5% 6% by spending a few hours a week managing it
it's probably not worth it
you should spend that time and energy
if you don't have a CFO focus on your product on your team
you need to think about liquidity
making sure that wherever you're keeping your money
you can use it it's not locked up for long periods of time
and I think you need to crypto and you think about where you need liquidity
you know do you need for operations on different chains
and then I think you know there's a lot of dimensions
to think about the treasury
how much do you keep in crypto
how much do you keep in fiat
you know how much is liquid versus less liquid
controlled by you and self-custody
you know controlled by a custodian
you know USDC, USCT yield very stable
you know you're making directional bets on ETH
and then kind of who or what are you trusting
you know all the way up and down the stack
you need to think about okay am I trusting a custodian
am I trusting a wallet provider
our team's private key management
the chain that our money is on
the smart contract that our money is on
and especially with some of these new yield generating stablecoins
you might also have to then trust
the entity in the regulatory structure
you might find yourself asking questions like
what jurisdiction is it in
if they run away with our money
and you know the last thing I'll say is also
a big part of this will probably also be dictated
by just your investors comfort level
you know some investors are very happy with
you know multi-sig with a minimum number of signers
some investors want to see the bulk of the money
stored in a custodian and so
you know if you find yourself getting a little too creative
the overhead getting a little too high
or if your treasury management is making you at all nervous
you're probably doing something wrong
yeah no that makes a ton of sense
and so to just kind of you know
distill the messages that I'm hearing from you guys
so I think the first takeaway that I got out of it was
obviously you just need to cover your runway
most importantly just make sure that whatever
cash or assets that you have in your treasury
is enough to just kind of cover all of your operational costs
in order to meet those targets that you have coming up
whether it be on the product side or with investors and whatnot
the other takeaway I got was you know definitely
definitely don't try to play hedge fund with your own assets right
like I mean yeah if you think about the
I guess the background and profile of a lot of the builders in the space today
like they're not finance guys right like they're not traders like
they're more guys who come from a product background
or like a tech background and so you know
there's this this concept in economics right
I think it's called like man it's like skill set arbitrage
or something or something amongst those lines
but the TLDR of it is like you know focus on what you're best at
outsource what you're not good at
and then that way you can both create a product that is greater
than the sum of the individual components right
so for founders in the space definitely definitely don't try to play hedge fund
don't try to you know trade in and out
and the last thing that I heard was you know diversification is good
but just make sure that you have stuff that's not necessarily correlated
to what's in your treasury right
if your token is you know going to rally alongside
the DeFi cycle right make sure you got cash perhaps some bonds perhaps even some
you know some gaming tokens maybe right because the cycles perform differently
but just make sure that you have stuff that has a lower correlation
or is anti-correlated to what you have in your treasury
but one thing I just want to double click on that is I wouldn't say outsource it
I would say there are some things you just should not do at all right
like if you were a startup and you raise let's say venture money
if you go to your investors and you say hey guys sorry our product failed
we tried our best there wasn't product market fit we burned all the money
it might be a little miffed about your you know spend but they'll be okay with it
if you go to them and say hey guys we bought a ton of ETH and it tanked
and now we have to shut down so we can't cover our costs that's bad
and it's bad if you do it directly but it's also bad if you do it indirectly right
so a lot of startups got burned last cycle because they thought
they were playing it safe by handing it over to lending desks
they said oh I trust these custodians I trust these market makers
they are big grams but they were playing on hedge funds
and giving it you know these under collateralized loans
uncollateralized loans or shit collateralized loans
and the you know startups weren't asking enough questions
and then proof now the money is gone from trading activities
so you just got to know like what what you are willing to lose money on
oh absolutely yeah like anchor I remember so many people got burned by that
so many startups yeah now that's an excellent point
and actually to drill in on that a little bit more right
so to drill in on kind of you know the startup segment of the companies
and protocols out there when you're that early on you don't have a token yet
you just have cash right what are some of the key things that they should think about
from a capital consideration perspective now you just talked about you know
not necessarily putting a ton of stuff out there to get market exposure
but does that mean that they shouldn't have any market exposure
or is it or or or do you think they should have some market exposure
after like an operating hurdle or which of you on that
I'm curious here the karpaki take here given you guys are more work with more digitally native customers
I think if we're talking about the project there is pre token there is likely
yeah doesn't have product market feed yet still doesn't have cash flow
so let's say it's likely a very early project so I would say everything we've talked so far applies
still if they don't have a token and they're planning to have one
I think this is where most projects fail which is their ICO or token launch
one thing that we believe it's super important and we expect this trend to continue is launching tokens
that are non transferable which try to emulate private markets
we believe this is the right way to do it and if you're planning to have an ICO or a public token
you need to really think about it very carefully and plan it like it was a fundraising
you know you need to run your books you need to make sure who are the one who are the VCs
who are going to dump who in the team is going to dump
otherwise we've seen most token launches out there where everybody has an exit in the first day
which doesn't really make sense at all public markets should be available when the project is mature
when it has cash flows so yeah my advice would be not to rush to have a transferable or public token
and focus on your product really you don't need to launch a token just don't do it
that's really interesting especially the non transferable token bid and so Bruno
with you guys at Magno right like when you when you guys are working with kind of startups
on their besting schedule on you know how how how investors get the tokens and all that sort of stuff
like what considerations have you seen you know startups ask you from your side
yeah I mean you know I think from our perspective right we think about kind of the treasury management
from a process perspective and I think as it you know usually how our teams safeguard their money
procedurally ends up being the same techniques that they use to protect their assets on Magno right
so if they're using a hot wallet you know then that's not great and so sometimes we'll actually push back
on teams and say hey we would actually feel more comfortable if you manage the assets on Magno
with at least a multi-sig and you know hey please have more than one signer on the multi-sig
right now that's one of the best practices that we advise and make sure that the multi-sig signers
are ledgers whenever possible we're actually working on the sodiums right now again from a procedural
perspective so I think one thing you know maybe that we've talked about so far has been kind of strategies
right it's like are you putting it in ETH or are you putting it in USDC but I think the process
and the structure is just as important right you can have all your money sitting in USDC and USDT
but if it's in a hot wallet that gets hacked you know all the money is gone or you know I think there
was an NFT project a couple weeks back they had all of their assets in a one of twelve multi-sig
which was just ridiculous I don't know it almost seems intentional that I don't want to say it was
I don't want to defame anyone but you know it's like are you the assets that you have are you protecting
them the right way and then but you know typically the teams that we work with we actually did a survey
when we were considering building you know treasury management tools we've kind of moved on from that
but we did a survey of all of our customers and you know most of them were using a multi-sig
and most of them almost all of them universally were playing it safe where they if they were on chain
it was in USDC or USDT and if it was fiat you know it was a money market fund or US treasuries
so I'd say from our perspective right that's sort of what we've seen across our customers and across
you know different technologies and again I think most of our customers have the right approach
which is their overriding concern is you know we're actually okay missing out on a bit more yield
to sleep better at night and make sure that our assets are safe
yeah that no that's really interesting and that makes a ton of sense I think you know
for just to kind of go back to your point right like that trade-off between how much extra little bit
of yield or you know return that you can milk out of your treasury versus that safe aspect of it
is something that a lot of folks need to consider and that's something that's actually been brought up
you know several times throughout this call already right it's just that you know what is your risk profile
how much risk do you want to take on right and that risk comes from a lot of different things
whether it's operational whether it's infrastructure risk whether it's market risk right and the amount
of risk that you should be taking on with your core treasury that you need to kind of build your main product
is very little if you're in that startup phase right where you still have most of your assets in cash
so now okay so we talked a bit about you know pre-token projects and you know thinking about the consideration
that product should have as a move to a token right but now let's say you know we're at the stage
where most of the dows and protocols that people kind of know are operating at which is you know they actually have a large portion
of their treasury and native governance tokens right and more you mentioned this as well
and in the sense that you know like Nansen has allocation as well right to to to crypto tokens
so when you guys are thinking about you know and chatting to treasuries who have these large allocations to native governance tokens
like what are some ways that these guys can effectively manage those allocations because it's very very
I mean just because the amount of liquidity on the market versus the size of what they have is just you know it's not non-existent basically
yeah sure I mean this this is a this is a good one so I think one thing that I perhaps find a bit under appreciated part of the crypto space is
let's just call it portfolio management right especially considering the volatility and turnover on market participants
so I guess in fact most conversations that associate with with Nansen or in general on Twitter is how do I find the new most shiny token to add to my portfolio
and I'll slide in a hint you go to Nansen.ai and register there but I almost never hear people talk about
I almost never hear people you know talk about how can they defend their portfolio get out before it's too late what are the early warning signals that you can monitor
it feels like most people are you know hoping they don't get robbed in the next 30 minutes so I think the points that I mentioned here already are quite solid
but you know to bring it up there are actually some really good tools for portfolio management and crypto and I'm going to mention my own company again here Nansen both because I know it really well and and I know that a lot of professional funds and institutions use it exactly to monitor flows
albeit significant changes in token holders or actually go two to three levels deeper on understanding what is the behavior and typical amount that makes up the TVL in different protocols and liquidity sources right
it's not just that number go up aggregate TVL that you see on Twitter that matters that could be one guy or could be 50 wallets and that that makes a big difference and you want to set up alerts and systems for when these conditions change especially once your you know portfolio grows in both sides as well as number of assets
and of course you you don't have to use Nansen for these things but we already made these dashboards that are prepared exactly for that so that's quite useful but on the other side I think you know I can preach both to traders and treasurers that
I think a key key point for for portfolio management is that you need to define your target returns your hurdle rate or call it opportunity cost and your risk limits.
Yeah so it doesn't really matter if you know you're trying to trade or hedge with perps on Binance if you're lending stables on Aave or you're aping 30 percent API PTE pool on Pendle or you utilize a customized treasury platform you shouldn't put all your eggs in one credit basket.
But I think more importantly and here is where I think a lot of people got lazy in the last market if your returns are below your hurdle rate or even worse they're just idle somewhere you know you take it back home.
A qualified custodian was mentioned here one out of one multisig doesn't count you know something that you call home or it could be that designated low risk platform where you feel comfortable having most of the portfolio.
Don't just leave it somewhere where it's not in your control.
Unfortunately there's no depositor guarantee in crypto and so you know it's just unnecessary risk left on the table that you're not getting getting paid for.
Yeah I think this is great advice for treasuries who own some hard assets like stable coins and maybe ether.
The thing we found in several of our treasuries that we manage is that most of them are very concentrated in the native token which I would say most people agree that they should discount those tokens to zero and
they basically don't have a treasure which is a situation we found in last bear market still for for these treasures they have some some options they can do with their with their native tokens.
So, one of them would be market making we know market make it's usually they need to take a directional bet on the for the price of the token their market made.
So usually what we found in, especially in bear market is that they want to minimize the stock risk. So this sometimes makes the situation even worse for the projects.
So, if the treasury markets make their own tokens they can make sure they, they, they are 100% aligned with the with the mission of the of the treasury of course, and it's also much more transparent and public.
So I would say this is a great thing to do with with their native tokens.
Also, if we're thinking about bear market.
We know most of these tokens, the, the volume is almost zero markets are very obscure, it's definitely not a an efficient market, I would say. So it's mostly represented by by just mechanics and when there's no volume.
The price of the tokens tend to be undervalued, you know, yeah, everything says to be more accentuated right bull markets are irrational but bear markets are also rational.
So sometimes it makes sense to do some buybacks program if the token is really undervalued. So that's something they could do with their, with their token.
Yeah, like like also like I mentioned before, if you have access to a market to a money market like some small market many markets in L tools.
You could use your token as a collateral. But yeah, there are not many other options at the at the end these tokens.
If you distribute them as grant is just basically a cost, and it can be a very expensive one.
If you're in a bear market and you're talking it's undervalued. So, yeah.
So, at the end, I'm just thinking ways of things you can do with it with the tools, most teams have out there is just their, their native tokens.
But yeah, these are just some options.
Yeah, I mean, one thing that we saw some protocols doing was taking out like a variable loan right in the bear markets on their native tokens and then using that loan to then do like a token buyback to try to increase the price of a token.
It was a very weird strategy that I wouldn't personally recommend to a lot of people, especially because if you're doing like, you know, I mean, yeah, that's playing with fire.
Yeah, right. Like, one, like, you shouldn't really be, you know, taking out a debt, right, in that sense, in a bear market on on an asset that's got like 150% annualized volatility.
Right. Like, it just it makes no sense. But anyway, like, it goes back to your point, right? Oh, this is kind of the what they have to do, because there's just not a lot of options out there.
And sneaky, you know, sneaky, you know, show of fight, but this is exactly right, like the problem that fight solves.
Now, more, you mentioned something really interesting. And so Bruno, I just got your text, you got to hop off in three minutes. No stress. It was awesome having you here, man.
I'm hoping to have you back for more of these chats. And yeah, man, really appreciate you kind of just just taking the time and sharing all that knowledge with us, man. It was awesome.
That was a lot of fun, guys. I'm happy to be here.
Have a safe flight now. Yeah.
Yeah, so more, you brought up something really interesting, right, which is the idea of like portfolio management, not really being viewed as such in the crypto space.
And I think that's super, super, super important. Because like, if you just think of crypto companies as kind of, you know, VC bets, right, because that's really what they are.
They're highly liquid VC bets. If a VC project is massively underperforming, would you keep putting more and more money into that project, right?
Or would you kind of cut your losses at a certain point and move on? And when we think about portfolio management and some of the kind of, you know, tools and liquidity pools and like that sort of stuff out there, right?
Like, yes, they make sense to provide liquidity and stuff. But they're actually very poor portfolio management vehicles, because that's exactly what they do.
They just keep rebalancing to the most underway token. And as a result, you know, the entire value of your portfolio goes to zero, that token goes to zero, right?
And so that point that you brought up on, you know, good, proper, fundamental portfolio management, being like an anchor is super, super important.
And I just want to highlight that. So I think, you know, with an eye on the clock, we call it, you know, five minutes left.
I have more questions that I want to ask the esteemed audience. Sorry, not esteemed audience.
Obviously, audience is esteemed as well, but the esteemed panelists here. But are there any questions from the audience?
If you'd raise your hand, if you have any questions, if not, no worries as well. I can just kind of go down the list and I've got one more question left.
Go once, go twice. Okay. So last question that I've got for you guys, right, is if you were to build a crypto treasury today from scratch, what would your ideal asset allocation be?
A bit of like a weird question slash random question, but I think it would be important for people to know just kind of like what in your mind, like just, you know, is the ideal allocation that they should also try to target.
And this is a good controversial one. I would just keep it simple.
Like, we, yeah, talk so far. Yeah, yeah, we're not a hedge fund, but if I was going to do it, I would say if, and let's say you have some extra funds you're not going to use for a long time.
Just hold some ether just to keep on the upside of the industry and maybe use it to market man your own token. But yeah, I don't have any any strong opinions on this.
Yeah, I mean, there's this, there's a big caveat here, you know, whether you're starting from from cash or your own token, but if you could, you know, start with a blank sheet, I, I kind of agree.
It probably makes sense to do something of sort of like a barbell strategy where call it 90% isn't something you consider extremely low risk and don't need any monitoring really.
And then you have five to 10% call it to play with. And I think that's where you, you should take some risk and and you can sleep well at night, as well as potentially have some nice upside surprises just like how the bucket market is really picking up now.
If I, you're going to throw out some ideas or things to do.
I would, I guess I have a couple. So, number one is this thing I call the Michael sailor hedge. Okay. And this goes back to a point I kind of rented on earlier about business risk, and what's your projects beta to crypto, because it doesn't just work on the downside.
It also works to the upside. So, a good idea for every project is to ask yourself, if we have a coming bull market, what coin, or, you know, part of the crypto industry could go up, and it wouldn't help your token at all.
Right. And, you know, it turns out that that for a lot of platforms or projects is Bitcoin.
So, you know, you may or may not decide to put that answer in your portfolio. I think it's just a very useful exercise.
Another one, if you're feeling exotic is to think about options or option structures.
So, for getting, you know, really right side exposure to potential new bull market, but it's also when it's the most row seat that the protection is cheap.
And then finally, a bit more of an odd one.
But I think something that's really interesting is the whole airdrop slash points farming, especially as I've seen people do that successfully to scale.
And to me, it's, you know, kind of spreads the bet and you have a diversified set of lottery tickets. So, again, like what Marcella was saying, if you have something to spare and you can, you know, afford to lose a couple of percent of your treasury, these are some of the things to consider.
Well, if you are going to trade options, make sure you have an ex trader like more than on your team to do it because otherwise it can go really wrong really quickly.
Yeah, and actually, actually stuck around. I just brought my phone with me. But one thing I also wanted to bring up is this question is very salient is think about even if times are good and it's a bull market.
Think about managing your treasury into the next bear market. I had a portfolio company. They were throwing off cash, you know, everything's highly correlated.
So this portfolio company was wildly profitable. Their assets were really high. They had decades of runway. And then, you know, they got a little loose with their treasury management.
They put it in some risky assets. They put it into some options. And next thing you know there, you know, when the bear market came, their customers kind of went under.
So the revenue tanked, you know, the market went down. So the assets in their treasury tanked, you know, the options that were profitable. Now we're losing them lots of money.
So even when times are good, you know, stay disciplined and have a strategy that you would feel good about if the market connects.
But also if the market went down by 70 percent and that the cause of the ruin of your company wouldn't be your treasury management strategy.
So don't be like Doja Cat and get loose, right? Just make sure you've got tight reins on your treasury. No, that's awesome, man.
Cool. Well, listen, we are two minutes past time. Really, really appreciate everyone's time here today. Thank you all for coming by.
Master shout out to our panel today. They've clearly been through the weeds on this. They've done this for, you know, a long time already. And without a doubt, you know, some of these subject matter experts here in this space.
If you have any questions, feel free to reach out, either Dia and Muslim on Twitter or join our Discord. As Morton said, you know, take advantage of the airdrops. We have one coming up in Q2.
So, you know, check us out at app.fi.fi. And Morton, it was Nansen.ai, right? That was the, the, the, like, yeah, go ahead. That's right. All day.
Alpha is not. Yes. Okay, great, great, great. And be sure to check out Carpaki and Magna as well. Awesome, guys. Appreciate the time today. Have a good one, everyone.