Know if you could see me before but for some reason
Wasn't able to see me so I had to rejoin
But now I'm up Kevin. I see you down there
Quickly sent you an invite
You're one of the usual guests
Don't make sense to get you up and talk about this thing and your lunch and everything
But I would say let's give it a few minutes, you know for more people join in the meantime
Maybe we can just chit chat a little bit
So how how has your day been?
Yeah, it's a lot of this is a
Not just like tesfin, but I mean everything that tesfin would connect to
Is just going on with the everything's very connected in the ecosystem. So you're thinking about one part you're thinking about other stuff
Even if it has nothing to do with you
You compare like I compare general network metrics with object
Yeah, yeah, that's part of what makes it exciting too the idea that it is kind of
This is new territory and finding the right
Kind of just on on your own and it's changing every day
Yeah, and we see that you know the
The metrics that people use besides a few ones the metrics that people use
change over time for that
I think the space is still maturing. So
People come up with different metrics and with different things
different periods different things matter let's say in a way so
Yeah, I still want to see like a dune analytics type thing for tesos
That would be great. Uh, I feel
Erwin of the stack report. Mm-hmm. Like he had come the closest but
Yeah, that's something I'd love to see him just fill me like um, what exactly does dune do like i'm not familiar
It's mostly ethereum. I mean it started with ethereum. They've added. I think it's a lot more recently in the birds and beta
You know, uh, but like yeah, that's that's kind of the bread and butter. Um, and so you can do
smart contracts and ethereum network analysis
but also like as you like you make these um
like you make charts and tables for it that are
And you can make it like public access too. So if I want to look up
Aave statistics, I can just type in ave and I get to see all these little modules that were created by the user community
Showing the data in all these different ways
And some of them are more, uh helpful for what i'm looking for than others
Are more live and other ones maybe just snapshot of the time period but like it's all it's all useful
Just the fact that there's so many different like you're looking at the same object at so many different angles
Um, and you get so much more because of it and what kind of data do they show like besides?
I mean I suspect it will be users total value loads and
What else like anything that is ordinary
Yeah, whatever the independent community member who posted that thing
And could show by by compiling the data in ways and it's all open source so you can you know grab that and
Uh, you know fiddle with it make your own version
Yeah, and which is and something like that. It's so important for
An ecosystem like these ecosystems where there's no one right way to do it necessarily and that right way changes over time
So it's really hard to like have
structured team of people
Who that's their job. Their job is just to find ways to like they're not going to hit the mark
not not the right way you're
Most people are still going to be like, uh, it's still
Without the uh, it's good at this but not so much that and I go to the other thing when I want to it's like it
Like, uh, that's why dune kind of becomes your kind of your resource
Um, like it just by default because it's just by so many it's the coalescence of all these different ideas
It is a tool basically that uh
Also allows people to promote some uh strong points of the app or of the network in general, right?
Right, yeah, um like you can get you know, you get some stats some specific stats
Uh that you don't normally find a suppose on
Explorers and stuff like for example even with tzkitti, right?
Like the fact that we have the stats page and I can go and see the contract calls
And the transactions that are going on which are pretty basic for most blockchains, right? Pretty standard
Uh, but it's still a good an easy way, you know for an average user to see that and actually
Bring it in to the attention of the rest of the people like, uh screenshot the chart and show that look
Uh contract calls are going uh are rising. Uh, there is the activity is rising unique wallets are rising. So you could
Use such tools for promoting even specific depth and stuff, right?
Because it's not like yeah, and we and yeah and get inspired by that too
Like it's like hey, I didn't think to look at those two numbers together
Until I saw this person do a chart about something else or and it's like you have to
And like think for that to happen like you need
implementations like they need to be
A lot of different things
Just like in your face from a lot of different people and you can go through them quickly
But like, you know, because if you're very dependent on just a few options out there
Then yeah, it's not going to get very
Um divert like you wouldn't think to know what to ask for even
Um, so so it only happens in so it's a very well
It's a great like technology that they're able to facilitate all of this stuff, but I think the idea of it
Um, and the way it's implemented
Is is just as much a part of the equation. So yeah, we need it. We need to do an analytics on tezos
That was yeah, that was my point. Yeah. Anyway, I will look into it to see to learn more about it to see how it works and
From the sound of it, it would be helpful for sure
Um, but we just got better with the I don't know if you saw the test marks like the inscription stuff you saw that
I saw I saw that link. Um, it didn't really load on my phone. So I didn't know what it was
I saw it was just kind of like oh no words
Yeah, it didn't work on mobiles initially at least
I don't know if they fixed it later, but it was for uh desktop
Inscriptions, for example, uh, I don't know man. It's something that I in my mind
It doesn't really have any great use for smart contract platform since they already, you know have different ways to
Meet tokens and energy and stuff like it made some sense for bitcoin
Since they like smart contracts
But um on other platforms, I think it didn't make much sense
Which I think is also the sentiment of so many of of us when nft's
Uh, like when they for that first arc that late 2020 vibe of nft's where it was just it wasn't like
Even what we thought of it a few weeks later, let alone a few months later
Let alone what it became and grew and like it meant kind of something else to the the public perception
like it was just seemed kind of silly, um, but also
Same thing with I think you could say about crypto and
General concepts as well. I think one of the reasons why it works and why it's so attractive
Um, I mean there are economic reasons people are just like looking for something to be interested in in a bear market
And that's when these came out, but it's also the fact that it's so simple
And I think we forget how important that is for mass adoption that it doesn't
Start with the most interesting or best thing out there that should captivate their attention
It starts with the thing they can understand
and so inscriptions are something they can understand and and that makes it for a very viral very uh,
Yeah, no for sure. No, no, I I agree. I agree. And that's the reason they usually get the hype they get
You know and everything and especially by the way on tesos, uh
Wizard of the the person that created it
He also is using tickets which has haven't been used, you know
It is definitely a net positive for me
Because now maybe you know the wallets will start indexing tickets maybe explorers as well. So that's definitely something that helps
Once in a while we do need some uh
Little things, you know that get us gets us excited. Uh, even if it doesn't make much sense, uh in some sense, right? But uh
I don't know. Yeah, I I like those little things that pop out, you know when they start getting excitement out to people
Yeah, it's people making stuff and and you never know what it'll become
We remember when object was just object dot bid
And people thought oh, isn't that nice? They made a little they made a little website where you can do auctions with ikit nuk
That which you know took off like
Not just a an aggregator, which is what it was
Uh for some time, but then make you could originally make contracts on there
Like you you couldn't have predicted that
When it first came out like you would have thought it was like oh, it's just another one of these
Uh things that came out of you know, the hickathon
Um, I don't even know if necessarily came out of the hickathon
But it was around that time period when a lot of people were putting out little ikit nuk apps
Uh that summer. Yeah, so yeah, I also remember I don't know if you remember, uh the magic button
Like that generated quite some hype
Uh, I think the first erga papers, uh, are we talking about that? No, no, no
Tz button. Oh, that's a tz button. Yeah, the magic button was from the team that created
Yes, the aliens farm, you know the aliens decks
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, that's magic button. I remember the quote at some point reached like, um
12, 000 tests or something
Until somebody wanted it. It was going on for like a few weeks. I don't remember
Yeah, I think they're I think aliens, uh decks and all that like it could have been bigger
Uh, I mean it's still out there. It's not like it doesn't know I think I like the website
Well the contracts yeah, I mean the original dexter contracts are still so uh,
The but yeah, like if they were a little like less anonymous like you could do a magic button being anonymous
But like it doesn't work as well for yeah
Well, and to be fair when the aliens decks launched we had like six of seven
decentralized exchanges like it was crazy, uh
Like yeah, it was like we also had
the flame defy you remember and the
Then spicy swap came out with whip swap dexter were still active. I think something like that
But we had like six or seven different indexes, which was like crazy
Yeah, and um, maybe it it goes to show that maybe the magic number is three for a lot of things
I I mean I wonder I don't know because I feel
Like last year like versum had shut down. Um, and I I'd always thought like oh
Yeah, like it kind of also
It's unfortunate, but also kind of like fit. It's like oh, yeah, like there wasn't really a space for them
Was there like there was object there's uh, there's fx hash for the generative. There's tea
um, you know for alternative rocker if that's what you're into uh, and then it's like yeah, and then that's kind of like
like the narrative that tea had
manifested was that like this is the spiritual successor to
Because and it's community driven and it's it's very much part of that narrative. Like there's a narrative that goes to its creation
Like but versum before that had happened versum had had come to be
But like before anyone knew what was going to happen with ikit nook and let alone its transition to tea in that sense
uh, but like its initial claim when it was being marketed was like we're gonna like actually continue with the
Because because ikit nook isn't evolving. So we're going to be yeah, like the evolution after that. Um
And uh, yeah, it just didn't really
It is a little bit sad like uh from different discussions I had
People liked versum the people that used it liked it and they had some cool features. I think that other uh,
Marketplaces didn't have but yeah, as you said like
There after a point there is some sort of saturation, uh in a way
We see like there is also eco swap or pentas. There are other marketplaces anything marketplace on tesos, but they are
Uh, they have a different audience. They are more, you know, uh directed to the asia region and stuff. So
They give their audience. Uh
From another region, let's say or so which is great
Yeah, it's I mean people who discover I mean just how did like having them watch the numbers?
Come in because just for like tesos.art and maintaining that and stuff like the uh, I was seeing like wow
How could swaps doing really? Well, why aren't we?
Does anybody notice this and nobody noticed it took a long time?
I think for people to really come to understand that no, no, no, this is not like
Some fly by night experiment by something like this is a thriving. Yeah
And it had been for yeah, and I include myself in those people that didn't realize it right away like uh, yeah
It took me quite some time to realize that eco swap actually has a lot of users and
But they just are not the usual users we see on twitter, you know, like uh in the in this uh,
tesos twitter space, let's say in general
So yeah, it's great to see that, you know, there are also like
different parts of tesos community independent, uh
being created around different depths
But yeah, anyway, so we are already like 20 minutes in and uh, we still haven't touched on the main topic of the night, which is
Why don't you tell us a little bit more about that? Like uh, tell us what is tesfin?
How does it work, you know, and how does it fit in general, uh in this current defy tesos space?
Yeah, so, uh in the simplest way
tesos is a decentralized lending and borrowing platform
What it means for a user?
Yeah, teslin. What did I say?
Decentralized luck probably because I say i'm realizing why because I always say tesos is a decentralized
So tesfin is a decentralized lending and borrowing platform. So
What that means is you can put money in
In various forms right now. It's tes xtz
tether and usd tes so usdt usdt z
And there's if you just lend it you just put it in deposit
Your amount that you have in there your position it will grow over time due to a rate of interest
Like a like an earnings interest
And then now that's how everybody starts in using the platform
No matter what you want to do. That's how you start
Then for some people, uh, you can choose to collateralize your position
and you do that by hitting a button says collateralize, uh, and
That the purpose of that is so that you can simultaneously as you're lending as you're doing that
That already said activity you can borrow you can take out say another currency
You can put in tes take out tether or usd tes or you can put in
One of these usd stablecoins tether or usd tes and borrow tes
and so you effectively there's this system of
Borrowing capacity and you will owe debt if you borrow
And then you pay it back once you return it and then once you return your debt and yeah
And then you can't take your collateral out unless you pay back all of your debt
So yeah use it and yeah accordingly for all your needs. So that's that's the basic idea. That's the mechanism
Uh that which it operates its impact its use case are I think most of
The narrative of most of the story like why it means so much to
Individual maybe yes on a primary practical level what it means for d phi
This this overall apparatus that we have in tesos
Which has been something that it's for the last thing that that is last independent factor needed to scale in tesos is that
And then what it means and also for what it means for the commerce sector what it means for nfts and how that's affected by
Like how object and all those are affected by it. Uh, and then there's what it means for tesos as an ecosystem overall
Is the bigger kind of thing that goes through my mind?
In as much as the kind of nitty-gritties i'm i'm always getting into with the with the product to make it just right
In which cases because you said you like you can you know park your test to earn interest, right?
But to get higher interest you
More people to borrow right like the more people borrow
the assets the more their
In which cases does it make sense for people to borrow?
Um an asset whether it is tes or usd t or usd tes
Yeah, and i'll tell you I mean
I guess i'd say not financial advice. Yeah
At the same time like ostensibly
I'll give the scenario in which this makes sense because like for what's going on right now on tesvin because it's so new and
I think the rates haven't well, definitely the rates have not normalized to what they will be
It's kind of like that first breath in and things are uh
And I wanted to see how it would land in that way like I wanted to see how people would react
What you would see is I think last night. Checked. It was like five percent something
usd tes five percent for tether
And these are small pools and then there's a massive amounts far more
Funds in tes. I think uh, where are we at with that right now?
You go to tesos.finance. That's the website by the way
Probably should have said that I have
The pink fit of tesvin as well in the space for people where the link is there as well. Yeah
67,000 point almost 68,000 tens are in there
Um, but only 88 tes are borrowed which has because it's such a tiny tiny amount
Of the overall pool. That means the borrowing rate the the rate at which you'd owe
And your debt would accumulate is extremely low
And that's now it's like point one one percent
So 11 100th of one percent. It's very cheap to borrow right now. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, yeah compared to the borrowing rate for usd tes, which is
Uh 6.25 percent and 6.14 percent for uh tether
Really when you think of it because even if you just borrowed
The at this amount now as you borrow the rate will go up. So but even if you get like 10,000
Uh tes and you pull out 10,000 tes
Okay, uh, and then you just delegated that
Or or you know add it to your own baker or whatever
Um, like that's based on the staking ratio you're getting like five six percent
Um, and then you but you owe nothing. It's like pure profit
Like why why wouldn't you do that now later on we'll definitely have
Uh, there will be financial institutions doing this at like an enterprise grade level
To you know being able to actually and of course programmatically doing that
You know, you'd have a bot that would be watching the rates to make sure
You know, this is a profitable activity and then it's like oh, well then a lot of people do that
And then so then the rate goes so high and then it's not as profitable anymore
Like what's that now you're just breaking even right now
And it's like well, then your bot would be like, okay
I'm going to return the capital. That's what's great about the liquid staking, you know, so
You can so yeah, you can just return it when you you don't need it. But uh, so this is a way to make money off of staking
actual money putting any money at risk within
Um, you could just keep it in us dollar and you keep your principle in us dollar
Yeah, which is also I think very important for people who like the money they get to start doing crypto stuff is money they borrowed
Um, or you know, it's kind of on the line in a us dollar format maybe off chain
So like they don't want to risk that
So, um, by the way just to clarify
Land and put us collateral one of the three assets and borrow
One of the other ones, right? I don't have to borrow the same one only
Or right, right. Yeah, yeah, and okay
In general that would be the the idea that you would borrow something else. Um, I mean if you borrow your own asset you're effectively
Tasked taxing yourself needlessly for an asset that you already own
Yeah, well it makes sense in some in some cases like uh
To do it like a leveraged position, you know on your position
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like if you want to
Like have more time to repay something
Just to to do that while you have a collateral that's still in the system and I think maybe over time you could find
There are ways in which something can get paid off without you necessarily having to uh, liquidate that asset
so like that that might be a position of something someone wants to take but that's more of a
It's a different kind of a evolution of an app
Yeah, um, by the way when I learned when I learned Tez
They are not staked are they
I mean for me as I learned that I'm not getting staking rewards, right?
Um, so the idea is well two things
So the next thing we're adding is ctez and the idea of ctez is it's supposed to take that question out of the picture
Like the encouragement would be go to ctez app
You know put put your Tez in an oven
Stake it and then with the baker and then uh, take out ctez equivalent
Yeah, and then use that as your thing
And so this I think and I think that will also help ctez itself scale because there's arbitrage and in
That regard to be had and I think the pool can the ctez Tez
Xtz pool will will start to scale and grow larger and we'll get a normalization of price because that's been a big problem with it
Um the the drift of the price
Um still not still not solved
But um, but the idea here with this pool will solve the xtz pool
um, and the idea is it's also because of the fact of
Like you can just borrow this thing and stake
Uh that you would ostensibly you'd see the price normalize at a point higher than the rate of interest
For staking itself and then so you would end up with as a lender
Theoretically the economic theory behind this is that uh, you will end up with a higher staking reward
than or higher, uh supply apy rate than
Staking reward alone. So it'll be that plus
every other reason that somebody wants to borrow, um
and so that would make up for a for
You know a higher reason. Uh, if we are to
There's like several different answers to this because even the industry itself is evolving in this regard. Um, but so another thing like the second uh
Part would be like, okay, we could stake the thing and do something
Um still very politically neutral like kind of like how keep who swapped it
You know before ctez was the thing that was integrated and you know, you would vote on a baker
You know, I I think that doesn't get enough acclaim for how cool it was
It was but I think higher staking industry it got quite exploited as well by
Yeah. Yeah, of course. It was imperfect
But the fact that they were thinking about this and they were innovating was something
No one else no one else did. Uh before that, uh, like dextre had just made an agreement with uh, what was um
Happy tezos at the time. I think it wasn't that they evolved it to then it was like, okay
well, then the the people you know the
Like asked, you know what the the people who the coin operators or whatever they wanted to call at the time like, what do they want?
Uh, it's like well that shouldn't be for any of us to decide either
Or should we be coin operators like it's where it's a decentralized asset
Uh, that's the whole point
So but then keep a swap I think did it in a way that was like so imaginative and then they actually did it
That was cool. Of course, it was yeah, like exploits are going to happen
But and I that's why I feel like moving towards those wrapped tokens at all
It wasn't as necessary as it was made out to be I feel because we just assumed that we needed them because weft existed on
on ether, but that was because it wasn't really
Like eth by itself was not as composable as xtz is, uh, you know without being wrapped
That's why they needed it so badly. They didn't have staking going on
That wasn't a question they had and then it just became about staking for us
Actually, the fact that they didn't have staking, uh made it much easier with uh wrapped teeth
Because they didn't have all the yeah. Yeah, that's exactly
Oh, yeah, it was so simple and no one had to think anything of it. It was always going to be that that price
It's like are you sure you can redeem that? Yeah, you can. Okay, it's the same price
Um, now we we have these complex, uh synthetic
Mechanisms, uh with these things, um, but yeah, but then and then the problem I think just this is a little bit of a tangent
The way it was implemented
Like I think now it's starting to get resolved like uh, definitely spicy swap did a good job
I think uh spicy swap and keep a swap or i'd like to see plenty do this. Um, but like uh
It's supposed to be a hidden layer when when you're interfacing with weft on
Like ethereum side dApps, you don't really see weft like maybe you do in the routing mechanism
But like you're to the user you're seeing eth
Uh, like that that's the whole point when you when you have to fill a liquidity pool and it's like, okay, go get ctes
It's like to a new user. It's like what the hell is that? This is weird. I'm leaving
And it's that's like you don't want that you want people to to see what they're expecting and that's how you remove the friction
Anyway, that's my whole i've said that too many times before but so anyway, the point is, um
Actually, how did we even get on this and now I want to fight the tangent then I lost where we came from where are the breadcrumbs, uh
Yes, so the point so yeah, so that's something we could do but then the way things are evolving now
Um, and there's because of like lido and uh rocket pool and things and people looking at staking
You know those like tokens coming out of that or like collateralized version like a ctes basically a version of that for maybe a particular pool
Um for a particular uh, uh baker, uh, maybe the future is that maybe we'll grow to a level where like and then it's like
Okay, you could stake your test your ctes or uh, you know your uh,
Uh, what about the of staking? I don't know
Not now it's the world is too small for but actually I mean I think it is for one of the larger bakers
They could probably do a version of that where it's like
Is it necessary will that will that industry will that be the continuance of an industry or are we just looking at a blip?
As people try to figure out how staking is really going to fit into
To the whole ecosystem and they should be taking a tip from us on how that works
Yeah, that's possible too. So but the point is it's like, you know, it's such a
What I discourage is just like rushing to answers for things that are meant to be
explored a bit more and and crossed with
It's not even necessary not on an economic level not on a financial level for the user
And not on a practical level because like we just couldn't we don't have the ingenuity to uh, to find another solution
And and and yeah, it goes back to that example of the the wrapped tez versions
It's there was no people were developers are having an easier time working with tez at one point than they were having
Making composable with yeah with fa given how rudimentary it was at the time and how convenient it was to to use raw tez
So it wasn't the necessity it was
On that level but uh, yeah
I think because some people rushed to do it other people rushed to having
Answers to that and then in other other people had uh rushed to having an answer to that
And then we just we had a couple different coins and they were all uh, maybe distracting from the point and um
Yeah, but I mean, yeah, that's really great. What magical. Yeah, that's to the complexity for sure
And it doesn't make it easy for new users that are joining the space the defy space
but uh on the other hand like for me, I don't know like uh cities for example makes total sense like with uh
in defy right but as you said it definitely adds to the complexity and it makes it harder, um
And maybe it's not necessary in the end like for example now, you know with adaptive issues and stuff
it might not be such a big point but
It happened on tezos with all those uh wrapped tokens that accrue the value of the staking rewards
Because tezos was the first that had you know, that
Is the delegation process and staking process like I said, I didn't have it
So they never thought about it and and now that they got staking we saw all those derivatives
staking derivatives come up or with like ladle and stuff and
We see that now they are facing different problems of central centralization of power and uh
Briefly that they have a lot of discussions now around it and with the clients and that coinbase
You know holds that much power and ladle holds that much power. So
It is a problem that we kind of I think solved, uh before it even happened, you know
Well, yeah, and and let me tell you a couple other things so the other if you look at
Yeah, we didn't need that solution. I think
Yeah, they definitely jumped the gun and that led to other people jumping the gun and everyone just complied as quickly as possible
I feel like the the we're breaking out of it too in in ways like object was just like oh
Who cares? Let's just do this thing. Oh
Uh, this is an xtz and then you know, you know, it's just like that's what it is. And then
I remember the wtz people proponents
You know, it's also documented and everything was very like well if they were going to do that
Why don't they use wtz? It's like why would you expect them to necessarily even know about that?
It's like especially when it's not
Maybe they even see it and you're not bringing people in from outside of the the community that understands
Like what this rap token even is it you can't expect mass adoption that quickly
So that's part of it. But also it it does suit their own needs in a way
I believe that goes to the baking rewards go to pay the expense
I'm just assuming I don't recall any confirmation of that, but I do know that they do for uh, uh for for yupana they
you know and they matt fished it differently before and and uh
You know, they're they're being imagined with this they put they do they convert you to something else called wtz
uh, that's it goes to pay their expenses, um, or to their operations, I think as a
Protocol, I believe it's taking a word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and so that that's how that works
It's not you don't see it on the ui, right?
Like uh, I think when like you see tez that we're using tez I
Uh, I remember seeing it at one point. I don't know if they updated it. Um, but yeah
I mean you can look up wtz
Uh, but the thing is there are other
In my mind, like if let's say one of these pools like
However, it was done in a in a good way
Um to in a decentralized way to stake one of the these contracts like the tez contract
Uh, those returns should probably go to
One of the to the reserve pool which is a pool that's owned entirely by the pool holders
like it's completely for them and that's part of the mechanism that is sort of like a
Uh, like kind of a water tower of like this is a just in case
Uh all goes to hell here's like like an emergency
Yeah, like an emergency supply kind of fun and and they have that's in all the like an avian compound in those lending pools, too
Uh, but yeah, so that would be
Like let me see where it is. I think I think like five percent
So yeah, it's like roughly the same amount that you would imagine
Yeah, reserve factors five percent. So yeah, it's like roughly the same amount for um, you know for for staking
So why not just use that and that way you don't that money in turn that would otherwise
Go to the pool that would go be passed on to the users. Uh, so the people in the pool
Yeah, it's like are you getting your staking reward? Well, yeah
The net difference would be if it is that then yeah, let's just keep it for the reserve
So I think that would be a better better way of doing it then and more decentralized
One argument that is would it be raised there? Is that uh, okay regardless of how you use the staking rewards
It also raises the question
But if things pick up and we get a lot of liquidity and a lot of tests locked
Uh, it's it's not only about the staking rewards, but so but also about the voting power that you get, right?
uh, that was also that was also an argument that uh was raised with dexter for example and with wtz and
uh those that had specific makers, you know making the
The test that was collectively pulled together. So
That's another issue that um needs to be solved in a way
You know and it's not like uh
especially I think for defi related or financially related things where
To have something deliberately unstaked is unheard of we do already have that with in ctes
As part of the ctes like you can read the the original documentation everything for it
It's the the tes in the tes ctes because part of the mechanism is an exchange contract between tes
And ctes xtz and ctes and the tes in that contract is not to be staked
It's not to be delegated. Yeah, right
That deliberately like that's as part of the design
You know, so that's the concept of that is not without standing. So the idea of like, how can you not have something?
Delegated it's like well, there's there's a deliberate reason in this regard
And and so at least I think not it's not the same thing
But the idea of like well
If we're expecting balanced returns for the user and if you want to stay politically neutral if that's meant to be something
Well, then isn't that better than staking having this voting power and then not using it like coinbase?
Um, isn't that isn't it better than that? Like just stay out of it. You're not that person
Um, and yeah, you're giving something up on a level
But there's a reason why the mechanism is it's built inside any it's not just apathy is the reason not to stay
Um, you know there we still have to or maybe that's wrong
Maybe maybe it is but the point is we have to explore these things to be able to find out
Um, and yeah, especially at this scale. It's yeah, for sure. I think it's fine
So politically all things considered. I think this is the this has been the right path that we've
We've put this particular pool
Um, yeah, um, but yeah the whole the big deal is like
Oh my god, the stake the the borrowing rate is virtually zero. It's it's point one one
All you have to do is borrow tes right now on tesfin and stake it and then
You're making money. Yeah
Uh, it doesn't make much sense because you lent an extra amount of tes
Which you will be losing the staking rewards from that one, right?
And you will borrow them other tests to just stake
But uh, if for example the the
The borrow app is slower than the staking rewards on
Usd tes or usd t then it would make sense to lend usd t borrow tes and stake it, you know
Because there would be this yeah, that's the other thing because you're getting because you are you aren't when if you're borrowing
You're not giving up the amount that you're earning from the lending side of things
So and yeah, so right now you could lend usd tes or usd t
You're what right now the the rate is uh, you know, it's it's around five percent
So it's but between four the lending rate is four point five seven and four point four one
So you'll be earning that apy and you can borrow tes
Percent borrowing rate. So right there. It's like you're you're earning is outpacing your debt assuming the
Price everything stays the same
Then you can stake the tes, you know by delegating and then you're getting a return of what is it now?
You know annually and then so on top of that you're making profit
Um, like so this is this is a kind of arbitrage
That people just haven't recognized exists yet
Uh, but it's something that I think the smartest people are going to pick up on first
And even try to build bots around for the scale
Uh, and I think other people pick up on later. It was the same thing. I noticed that what that happened when
Uh, because usd tes it was one of the first two tokens
Outside of tes being traded like when dexter the first dex in late 2020 launched. It was uh, it was tzbtc
So like these pools were starting defi was new to tesos people were just coming in and experimenting
But it was I mean defi in general was very new and and and amms and that kind of arbitrage was still very new
To a lot of people like there was a lot of education that had to be done on like how these things even work
And what you can do with it
But like yeah, like there would be there was enough liquidity and there was arbitrage sometimes
Because the the centralized exchange price of tes would just change quickly
The price on the dex on dexter only changes when people buy or sell when they're actually moving it
So there would be people were so not like aware that this was a thing
That like all they had to do was just make that trade and they would instantly make
like 40 percent gains of like
10 000 and then way more than that and it was just like thousands and thousands of dollars at a time
Every time and every time this happened that I noticed I would go and I would make
Uh, like a tweet about it and I would say I would just show the numbers. I would
You can go through my tweets
Which was the third token that got
That tweet it was from 2021 january so
Three years and people people thought yeah
So people when I was doing this and I like effectively I was just tweeting out opportunities where people could make instant thousands of dollars
I mean if I see that I initially think
Bullshit, there's no way because if this thought were true, why doesn't this person take it themselves?
And why am I getting it for free?
Like I mean, we don't really trust that kind of stuff
But then some people noticed and then the first times I think people started being like, oh my god
Yeah, that's not a year. They would say something in private and I was like, oh wait, this is actual
I actually posted about it. Look in the pink tweet the second point
Uh, I found it the tweet that I posted about the arb that I took with ftz
Out of nowhere and I was just getting into defy back when I had no clue
I you know, I got into crypto in early 2020 and we didn't have any defy. Uh
Until september 2020 when indexer launched right? Yep, september 30
So just in that one arb that I posted I made like how much is it?
With by buying ftz and um
buying if turning it into ftz selling it on indexer and then
re-buying again, uh if on a central exchange turning it because there were no arb boats there were no
Arbitrage takers back then it was just starting out. So those opportunities existed back then
Now obviously there are already boats balancing everything out and uh taking those harps
But with the new things and the landings and all the stuff actually new ones
I mean, I still see I still see like points where things are off like five cents sometimes and like
For a good amount of time that somebody could notice it in pocket the difference
So I think the thing that people don't factor in is
Sometimes those bots like there's a few of them, right? And um, you know, they co-balance each other some of them
Um, it happens a lot, you know, maybe not even intentionally
Um, and maybe for a long period of time unintentionally while a person thinks it's still running
Uh, and also sometimes people just like and they also have certain
They bought a shit coin and now they have to then they got ripped and then now they have to pay their rent
So they have to liquidate everything if you don't know people's lives. Uh, so that happens a lot that happens a lot
um, and I hear about it anecdotally but also like
uh, so it's important to like find those gaps and you have to and nobody thinks about how
Like when you think oh, well somebody else would have figured it out. No, they're thinking the thing you just thought that's why they're not even looking
Um, yeah, and so between so that's the thing
Probably the equivalent of that now where it's like you can just make money
because everyone has someone out of usd that
Um, I mean honestly unless you're an idiot
Like if all of your money is on something volatile, you never know when world war three is going to happen
Just like keep everyone has some usd equivalent under their pillow
So as long as you're doing that
Like and your intention is to keep it in usd
Um, and but you want to do something else with it. Then yeah, just put it in a lending pool. You're earning on interest
It's like four to five percent
Apy right now and then you can borrow
Tez at what's almost zero percent debt right now and stake it and then that's your
You're making money off the the usd interest you're making money off the usd stablecoin interest you're making money off of
The staking that you're doing with the tez
So like not only is like whatever debt you're paying negligible, but it's on
You know, yeah kind of double-sided there. Yeah, and then yeah, and then the tez goes up in value you can um
What's the collateral ratio? Like um, i'm familiar with how liquidations work on
for example cities or on colibri and stuff, but
What about tezfin like I suppose there are some sort of liquidations in case, you know
The collateral it gets under collateralized or something, right? How does it work?
Yeah, so, uh, and i'll put up a chart for this right now
This could vary and you know, we obviously can change over time. Uh, but so just clarify
If you lend 100 dollars you can borrow maximum 50 dollars, right? Something like that
so uh, and yeah, but the important thing is to to recognize with that is like
So for like if you if tez is say worth a dollar and then you can borrow 50 cents of usd because of that
Then let's say the price of tez goes to two dollars
Well, then your borrowing capacity is now a dollar because the price of tez went up
But also the opposite is true too if you put down
Like half a tez because that's your capacity
You know the price of tez goes up. Well, then like well, wait, I was under capacity
It's like not anymore because the price of tez went up you went over the 50 mark
That's the other thing that uh people so you need to be very uh, uh conservative
When using volatile assets and likewise if it's like well you you borrow 50 cents from putting down
A dollar of tez and tez worth a dollar say the price goes down to 50 cents
You're you're way over collateralized now
It's like but I but when I borrowed it it was it was within the margin see it showed me a healthy
Uh a meter thing. It's like yeah, but then the price of your collateral went down the price of tez went down
So now you went under the the margin. So you need to give it enough space that even if the price changes
You you can you can get out
So it just occurred to me like that makes total sense with volatile assets like tez, right? But uh
What happens with the stable coins that are you know?
Picked to one dollar like how the
How can people get liquidated there just from the borrower apy?
Right, so and that'll be also be the thing where so when it comes to like stable coins
Um, it depends on how like you get you have an oracle. So you need to use oracles for this kind of thing
See, this is an issue when ctes does come out because it does have a drift
Like this kind of it follows the same category as this in a way. So
Uh, so this includes algo coins, um and ctes
uh, like when you look at the history of say compound
And when people would get liquidated like the massive liquidations the record the things that become coin desk articles when somebody gets liquidated
And it's so huge because somebody was watching the block record. It's always an algo coin
Assume. Oh, well, this is an algo coin. This is a synthetic like it was like it's die dai
Uh, and so it's it's a u.s stable coin
I can count on that collateral being as strong as it will be because it'll always be a dollar, right?
But then but no algo coins have their own internal markets that keep the price synthetically balanced
It's never quite a dollar. It's always a little bit over a little bit under and sometimes that gets even more volatile based on
And yeah, and then like it it's volatile enough that it breaks the collateral the line of collateral
They put down. Yeah, because they usually I suppose go to the maximum capacity or close very close to it to it, right?
Yeah, I guess it's very tempting. It's like oh, I'll just put down the seat and i'll take down out this coin and then
Use the test or any stable coin to go from one dollar that it's back down to 90 cents, right?
something needs to happen or maybe
There is a spike or something
Yeah, exactly, um, you know, like i've seen
Like unless people are questioning whether they have soluble reserves
Uh that that this could be redeemed
Um, and like the more genuinely people are concerned about that the more impactful it is
So like when people were worried about that with tether it went down to 70 cents
I remember this because I remember looking at the exchange and thinking should I buy tether because it could go back up to a
Dollar tomorrow, which is exactly what it did. Uh, it's like nah, what if it goes down more and I could have made
Uh so much money so quickly just a 30 percent, you know, you know, that's 40 rise that quickly
So um, but when you see see
Banks in which it keeps its holdings the collateral holdings which silicon valley bank when they went under
uh, it yeah, it dipped the price of usdc but not I think it went into
It was really only a few cents and it was so short lived because the public realized very quickly or enough
Enough confident forces were able to mobilize their money to buy that dip quickly
Uh who who knew that the us government in the end would step in and bail out silicon valley bank
Of course they are of course usdc is going to be fine. Of course us users are not going to
Be sent into this massive turmoil which would have ripple effects on the economy. Of course, that's why they did it
That's why this is the us domiciled coin. That's the whole point. No one's going to bail out tether. Yeah
No, I think there was also a big
Drop in the stable coins in most stable coins even usdc dropped back then with uh, when the usdc
The usdc stable coin was busted
When that happened people for some reason
Uh, like yeah, that's the that's the biggest one. Yeah, and I remember that people people were selling
497 or something like what the hell, you know, it's not like everything is like the luna. There was a specific reason that crashed
Yeah, I mean in the end that's what happens though
Like whenever you building a synthetic value and people question the collateral source
Like which is why single collateral die was so problematic so unstable
Uh, you know at the time it was priding itself on how stable it was
But now we look back and think of it as like, oh so bad
Like confidence in something. I mean if it's rooted in
This blockchain and you lose confidence in it
And you lose confidence in the asset
And the thing therefore you want is stable coin
And people are rushing towards that where at the same time they're getting out of the thing that it's based on
It leads to kind of a strange types of behavioral dynamics
Uh for market participants. It's a weird kind of a paradox to like
It doesn't factor in the why
Yeah, why because of so yeah, but anyway, yeah
so the but the point of so that's I think I discussed the primary points of lending and
And like this is what it means to a practical
user, uh, but where it's used and why it's so important for the tesos ecosystem is
Well, let's go back to defy before I hit if you the impact of it in
Finance and in defy as reflected in defy is that it's the single biggest driver of
DeFi scaling without lending without these interest rate based systems
Of lending and borrowing and the kind of activity that surrounds it. You can't grow the liquidity
Sustainably in a defy ecosystem. Um, so we were able to prove in the past that we could get hundreds of millions of dollars
Into tesos defy liquidity, but it would go away just as quickly
Um sure you can incentivize people to come in and they might even like the app that they're using
But it's not but capital liquidity doesn't stay there to be static unless there's an act of opportunity
So that's why you'd see it leave just as quickly
Um, you don't need to look at the charts to see that
So so that was the reason why we couldn't sustain it whereas other ecosystems that do have scaled like multi-billion dollar
Uh defy liquidity that's even when it's doing poorly. It's still in the billions and stuff like that or hundreds of millions
um, like they're the ones that have had lending systems, um, and you can see how it
You know worried about something you don't have to pull liquidity out
They can just park their money where they're earning on interest
and then if something comes up they can even borrow uh against that with uh, just
Like with that is collateral
Um, and so keeping them and so it's not just keeping the money in the ecosystem
It's like keeping it in the ecosystem in the most actionable way in which people can actually borrow capital
Uh and uh and accumulate debt willingly so they can go and do more stuff in that economy whether it's defy or commerce
Um, which ultimately factors back into defy
It's such a critical component. And so that's what that's the engine that enables it to scale
Uh, like like when you add a bank to a country
There was a time in countries didn't have banks when the system of modern banking and loans didn't exist things wouldn't scale
It wouldn't it wouldn't happen. Um, so that's so uh, and and then if you want it like a just a general like number
Like what does this really mean? Like how big is it every single top defy ecosystem you look at you can go to defy lama
the the largest category, uh, like what makes up between like 35 to 60 some percent
Of the liquidity in any blockchain's defy ecosystem is money that's in lending
That's that's how big it is. That's how important it is and you need a big
Uh a coffer for lending because that empowers the other stuff
And timing wise a lot of people even think oh, well, isn't uniswap the biggest thing on on uh,
You know on on ethereum or whatever. No, no, no
If you look at the history it it's scaling uniswap scaling followed suit followed the scaling of
Of compound, um in particular compound anave but compound very much, uh, they're just timing wise
They were the first ones to do so many of their things
Um, and uh, yeah, so that's and same thing with maker and its ability to scale
So those scalings were very important factors to the scaling of defi. We associate them so much
With the scaling of defi, but they're dependent factors
The the the strongest in this sense the strongest independent factor in terms of the ability to scale to retain liquidity and to compound the liquidity
Dexes and the other components of defi is lending. That's why it matters so much for the ecosystem
And so having and and people who come outside of defi overall in our tesos like most tesos users
The like the artist community the collector community who are like, well, what does this mean for me?
Um, what if what does it mean for me if I don't use it?
I mean haven't hasn't the biggest complaint over time in tesos our community been like there's no like where's the liquidity?
Why don't we have the price points that we see on?
Foundation and maker's place and and all these like huge high end. Why is it so rare that we see price points?
Of even that kind of upper bracket level. Um, and and in general, I want a higher bottom line
I want I want people to you know, I want this to grow in that level. It's because of that liquidity
It's about creating. It's for sure. I mean it is an important
point an important aspect of the whole ecosystem, you know to being able to
maintain the liquidity in the ecosystem and not it leaving but
How do you kickstart it like how do you kickstart the boardway in current platform and also how do you bring in the liquidity like isn't
Uh, aren't bridges another important point like uh, is it isn't that something else that we're liking as well?
Um, I don't see I think bridges are
Like they tend to be a panic button
I think for those who want to show off greater liquidity quicker kind of like incentive programs are
Because it's like yeah, it removes friction in a certain way, but it also raises the question why?
But why would I do it here?
It's like um, like to any scale that's greater like won't it always be a smaller version of this other thing somewhere else
um on sometimes if it's because you know, there are
Uh, uh, you know, there are other ways to do it through layer twos and that kind of thing
um, but yeah, so bridging I don't I think uh
I think you it needs to be both like you can have a bridged version like
There'll be what ether link does and like the apps that are if the evm built dapps
That write to this ethereum layer 2 that ultimately write on this layer 1 that is tezos
And then there is that strength and and backbone of the the industry that we'll be able to see out of that
But then there will be the tezos layer 1
Uh dapps and d5 for these different sectors. Oh, yeah, I was mostly talking about layer one like um
I don't know to me. It looks like a little bit. It looks like um, the chicken and the egg problem, you know, like uh
Like we already have some well notes. We already have the egg. I mean we need
people want to bring in liquidity, but uh when there is not enough liquidity like for a big transfer or something
People cannot uh bridge it they can only bridge small amounts. So that's where why I say the chicken right? Yeah
So how do you solve that right?
So I think um, I think it's people so it it definitely comes down to we saw this during those early dextr days
It's people understanding that the opportunity exists and then acting on it
Um, and there is a gap a major major week. One thing I learned during those days that late 2020 like I didn't know how hands-on
Um, and I remember like arthur said during some interview before that time and it became almost like this ominous British
Um, I shouldn't say ominous because it was so educational but like we we tend to over assume
He said something like we as human beings we tend to over assume rational markets
um, like that reverberated in in my head, uh
Or something like that during those months because whenever I would look with my eyes and see
like just do the calculation and I see the instant arbitrage opportunity of like tens of thousands or thousands and
Uh, and I'd be like I just hear that like we always we over assume rational markets
Yeah, if this market were rational if the market if the tesla stify market were rational and acting rationally that is
And what that would thereby mean in this context is that they would have had something or they would have personally recognized that this arbitrage
opportunity exists right now. I wouldn't be seeing this right now because someone would have taken it
And then the the price would have been balanced. So like that was seeing an
What is irrational or inefficient?
I'm going to change believe my mind
Well the mechanism use it's inefficient like it's literally capital inefficiency or market inefficiency efficient market would suggest there's at no point
Would if we had super super strong efficient decks markets, there would be no arbitrage
As soon as the price would change on a centralized exchange it would change exactly at the same time
Uh virtually exactly the same time on a dex but that was so far from the case
So it took like sparking up
Like uh, the initial community which eventually grew and grew and grew. Um, so it's there it just uh
I think uh for a new platform. There is also the element of
Every I just imagine everybody's standing around a swimming pool and nobody knowing what the temperature is
So everyone's like looking at each other like you put your toe in
You put your toe in and then somebody's like I know it's good. It's fine
And then until you see that first person jump in it's like no, it's great
And then then the next person is the next person does and it's like well shit
I don't want to be the last one again
And then that's how it tends to to be but um, yeah
But it's just known that there are the people who will do that. So
Exposure yeah, people will eventually you know, uh bridge and use those things and the liquid will increase
Yeah, and i'm gonna start like the daily I keep saying this but we're going to start now
I I deliberately didn't do it for the last uh week since we launched because I didn't want to uh
Like I wanted to see organically where things landed like if it uh
You know, there's what how much money there's
13 dollars and usd t there there's uh 1.5
68 000 almost uh tens like huh
That's an interesting thing to know like I learned so much from that
Just just watching that happen and what that means that like I wouldn't have known that otherwise
Like oh, let's seed this thing with a lot of capital
Let's get people to put stuff in there
Um, or let's borrow money and do it ourselves or uh, let's start some incentive program to get it done. Um, or
Oh, I can't it's so much easier than convincing people to come and give this a try to bridge their assets because it takes a click
But really they're on something else and they're just kind of like
Kind of sort of they're here with their liquidity. Um, like that's the way to
Uh, uh, it's as simple as that but it's
Like you can definitely get a lot more alpha out of seeing things just raw and organic and how they come to be
So after that's set in place and it's like, all right, let's just see how things kind of kick up
Um at this point it's like you look at the opportunity and you're like, well the opportunity is in borrowing
Well, yeah, it's in it's in putting in these stable coins because the rates are up there
Uh, but like they're activated but we have next to zero rate for tez that tells me
The market inefficiency right now is people not knowing
That they can borrow tez for almost zero and make this kind of money
They need to know that they need to they can make this kind of money
So then eventually you see the people who do so what's the plan moving forward? Um
Yeah, do you have some plans? I don't know for marketing or something or something like that
Yeah, I mean it's all all of it is marketing. Um, it ever starts or ends
It's not uh, like it's it's kind of this endless campaign
So, uh, well i'll be doing it i'm going to be writing a lot more articles
Um, and and on not just the usage of it but different use cases
And also more about those tokens themselves. We're going to be uh, once we hit
A milestone i'd like to see like the first million in the door then we can start to add the other pools
Um, but not just the first one. I mean that's I shouldn't even say that because it's not even just about the liquidity that's in there
It could be a lot less actually, uh, but it's about the borrowing ratio. How many people are borrowing?
What's the average borrow size?
You know, how are like what's the activity level? Um, you know average and different like debt positions
These are the things to see
It needs to find the market fit. Let's say that people start using it as it is intended to to be used, right?
Yeah, like what's the threshold so it's understanding the market and watching it start to scale on its own. Um,
Plus, you know, there are a lot of little things that we've had to to get out of a way like um,
Um, you know like we're like different wallets are giving different gas rates and the gas calculation
Is off and trying to figure out why with them or why it's certain hit or miss
When people try to do this on this wallet or whatever like little little debuggings that only come when you get like a
Mass group of people using it. Yeah, right. Um, so yeah, you want to get rid of those things before you uh,
Um for sure. Yeah, yeah, but the expose it you need the feedback to fix those things
So yeah, yeah, so continuous validation, uh graduated learning and market expansion
I mean, these are good lean principles to which the product gets better and better over time
And uh people come into it for the right reasons and are giving you the right you're getting the right feedback from them
um, and uh, you know, you're making a better product for people, uh, that's that's really the best way because um,
It's like it's that question, you know, I remember being asked in first grade by the teacher. It's like would you rather have?
uh, a hundred dollars a day for 30 days or would you rather have one penny on day one
And then two pennies on day two
And then four pennies on day three and it and just going on like that
And it's like by the end you're this billionaire if you just took the penny approach, but it's not obvious
uh, so you so I I feel learning is the same way and scaling like scaling a you know
You know whether like whatever your project is the users
Whatever metrics you're looking at the the liquidity the volume the borrowing like i'd rather
It be at like one penny right now all of it
Like i'd rather we have one like doesn't matter if we have you know, 60 something thousand liquidity in there
It's like if it were just a dollar, but I was learning everything I can from that. I would much prefer that
uh, because I know i'm much more able to
Scale it up to whatever millions I want by the end of the month than if I started with
You know a thousand times more at this point and got nothing out of it. So that's that's the logic that I bring in
No, it makes sense it makes sense man, um, right so we've been going for like, uh over an hour already damn
Um, yeah, would you be cool to open the stage? Maybe people have some questions
Yeah, all right. So you heard him
Uh, if you have any questions, I know this
Topics are many times complicated. There are a lot of words that we don't understand. So
There is no such thing as dumb questions. I keep saying that
Uh, if there is something that you don't understand you want to ask feel free to request and come up and ask kevin about it
So we can clarify it or discuss it
And with that said we'll go for another 10 15 minutes, I suppose
Until we see any requests kevin, um, what assets are you planning to add in the future?
Yeah, so the full roadmap you can see on tesos.finance front page
Yeah, this is the general concept roadmap. So the best thing to start with
Uh, we're starting with these are these reserved back tokens or like these hard backed assets. So that's of course tes itself
Um, uh, we have usd t uh usd tez we have
Ctez we're including it in this category as well
Um, and uh your your tez or not your URL
Uh, eurl, which is the uh luke stablecoin
Uh euro double coin, you know
Um, and so we'll bring in ethtez and btc tez as well, of course tz btc, which is used in liquidity baking. It's serious
And then on that note, we'll also bring in sears sirs serious, which isn't itself a
Reserve back token, uh, but it it does it is in this sense given its intention because for one thing the liquidity is certainly large enough
It's its position in the protocol economy is is large enough in that regard
um, and uh, like you wrote a great piece on it kryptonia, um on liquidity baking and uh, you know, we made
Tez x.io if you go to tez.io, it is a liquidity baking dashboard now. Nice, um, which will be expanding. Yeah, so
Uh, we didn't we didn't even announce that it was just quietly we we released it
Because we're that's just kind of the canvas of what we're going to be adding later
Um, but yeah, so sears is meant to be it's meant
It's a token that was created to help elevate the store or tez as a store of value
DEX contract that's a exchange swap between btc
Tez x tz and liquidity providers adding value in that and getting sears in return sirs in return
They're basically pegging their liquidity value to the price of uh, these two things together assuming that they
With the with the inherent assumption that these two things tend to correlate very well
Um, or or generally even if you don't expect them to correlate
Too much you don't necessarily want to give any more tez for bitcoin
Then you would give bitcoin for tez. It's probably a good option for you as a liquidity provider
Um, so that's and and also you get an extra subsidy from the protocol
Uh in valued in tez just for putting tez in there. Anyway, um, it's pretty tez and adding liquidity to it
So yeah, so that's that's its role in the ecosystem
So I think uh that matters but then after that after those tokens, uh, then we're going to bring in the algo coins
Then we're going to bring in uh kusd uusd ubtc
You know and uh, uh others as well
Kus the calybria strictly with the um kusd coin
Ubs has been producing a lot more of those any other alga points that maybe make their rise over time. We can see that
Yeah, I tried to you know, I was thinking about should we include the other tesos wraps like oxtz?
Um, well particularly oxtz, but uh, you know the object team they don't they don't really see it in that way
Like they're not but you don't get on them. They're not trying to make a separate
I tend to agree with the liquidity. Yeah. No, I tend to I think that the oxtz
Uh is designed more to be in its contained environment of object, you know
Like, uh, I don't see it as a token. You know outside of object
It's mostly right maybe in the future. Um
Kind of with if they if they were to make it more of like a service
Uh to the extent and if it were to who know like I think the overall tesos ecosystem will lead to scale to the point
people looking at things like you have a version of a lido pool or a rocket pool where
These staking up bakers and these these operations are
Are more of like these bigger kind of projects where you think of them as platforms in and of themselves
Um, which is interesting and it definitely I think that's also helps tesos the fact that those things are
Rising on other ecosystems because it's almost like they're paying for the market education
Um, whereas we get we have a better system
And we'll just take the the benefits of that once they start to look over and see oh I can make money here
Yeah, you can make money here too after you set everything in motion over there
Why not come over here and do it here? Um, which is yeah benefit and defy as well
So yeah, but yeah good on them for on that level and it's certainly not a focus
I think they want to have unless they were to have their full-on
Like a defy department or something, which is definitely not their core
So but yeah, uh, so I think having it slim right now allows us to look at these things very easy
Uh, and so after the algo coins, we'll be able to
Uh start looking at the volatile coins
Which is difficult right now on tesos because we don't have many
Are you for one thing they have to be large enough. They need to be scaled enough
um, like not just the amount of like more capital liquidity, but
And not just like oh, but did you see yesterday they had insane volume top volume of anything on tesos by far
Yeah, but that was yesterday because this event happened. Is it an everyday thing?
The way that a stablecoin has it where it's constant
Yeah, like that's because otherwise there's a danger in bringing those tokens in because if it's low volume
Um, like you can't really count on that oracle price
Reflecting the reality and if it's supposed to represent somebody's collateral then
It can get easily manipulated
It could be dumped pumped more easily if it doesn't have enough liquidity and volume. So
Uh, it doesn't really help with the collateral thing and everything
Yeah, because because pool pool holders like people if you're participating in a lending pool
You need to feel you know, you can get paid back or you need to be able to get paid back
So if it's um, if you're betting that
This volatile meme coin that came out yesterday
500 000 in liquidity, but 5 000 in volume
Uh is gonna like that's the thing that's going to get liquidated
To pay you back. It's not going to be priced the thing that it
It's listed as that will be very irresponsible way of doing stuff. So you're going to get burned
So that's why it's not a good idea. So right now the thing that we're exploring more likely than anything is doga
So far like that's relative to other things. That's the the one
Um, you know because it is used as an active currency in a game
So there there is a lifeblood and and circularity to it. It doesn't necessarily mean it qualifies
Uh, but or qualifies yet. It has a lot of liquidity
Um in in different pools in on gate.io and uh, you know centralized exchanges like that's their pursuit
Yeah, it's widespread enough
You know, there are oracles for it. So I mean there there's something there
There is there's a reason why you don't even see these types of assets even the very large ones
for for different like top level
dApps tier one type of dapp tokens on compound and avay anymore why they just really slimmed it down to
major currencies and stable coins because
It it gets really hard to be able to sustain things people get burned
People get burned all the time, but you're you're much more confident with these stable assets. Um, but yeah, I think I
The problem is if people it's like well, why don't you have?
You know pepe there and then it's like you got a problem with pepe or anything
It's like no like first of all pepe is going to scale and benefit like just like any of these coins
They would scale and benefit tremendously as a function of the overall growth of the ecosystem the defy ecosystem
So like it doesn't need to be directly involved or be facilitated on it on as a lending pool to benefit
In fact, it might even you could argue it could it would hurt it
Uh, and it would not just the the system, but it would hurt that coin
Like the way like they're they're on the right path by recognizing that there's money to help like pepe on these things here
But it's not it's more like downstream upstream of it. It's not in it
That's the thing to keep in mind. So people who can figure that out. Um, I think they they'll figure out like
You know where other even newer opportunities can come so
Um, you didn't get any requests yet, but uh six positive question
Oh, yeah, it's a blank excision testing more profitable compared to delegating
We talked about this early on too
It's once the the economic theory is that once the rates normalize and we get efficient markets
Which right now they're not efficient because this thing is so new
like it will it would be that way because
you otherwise people would just for one thing they would borrow until
Like or more likely to have a bot that does it that would borrow tes
Um to a debt level high enough that they'd still be able to just stake it and make money off of that
Besides that they would just borrow it
Like for other reasons for any other reason anyone would want to borrow tes
So doing that would raise the borrowing rate even higher which as a function of it sets the supplying rate higher
Which means the the amount you make by lending is higher
Um, and so for that reason
Like in in my mind once they normalize
You would see the staking rate plus all the other premium that comes from staking it because the demand will be that high
but you got to give it a tick to to normalize once people realize that there's
There's there's like as I say these words right now
There is active living arbitrage that people aren't taking yet
Um, but they they will realize that that's there. I'm just waiting for the space to enter. I won't take it. Don't worry
I want I want yeah. No, no, no, I I mean that's part of it. It's you're part of everybody but it's like
Yeah, that's why I would always tweet it
Like I knew like people would dm me and stuff. They'd be like, oh just let me know any time during the set
Just send me a dm. I'll totally it's like no, but there's a reason why i'm tweeting it out
I want people to learn about that. This is a thing you can do
Um so that everybody more like that's how people build up because if it's just one person doing it
Okay, that person dies now. Like he knows about it anymore. I thought he did
So so right now to just put it simpler right now
It's not more profitable because there is a no there is not a lot of borrowing going on but once
People start borrowing the test because right now there is
The more people start borrowing those tests the apy will keep rising, right?
Eventually, it would get higher than the staking reward. So that's the thing you want to be looking at
Yeah, I need to put a little info on there so supply apy when you see that on
App.tesos.finance. That is the lending rate
So that's like the the interest rate that is earned by depositing money
the borrowing api is the debt that you owe
over time and then that's the
That's the that once you borrow money if you borrow money and not everybody will
If you borrow money, that is the debt that you owe
And for each pool you'll notice that the yeah, the supply apy is smaller than the borrowing api
Of course, because I mean why would somebody uh supply for something that was?
Paid a higher rate than it would be to borrow it
Uh, so what you would do is you would yeah, it's always a function of the borrowing rate
So it's always smaller than that. Yeah, but by the way, why do they call it borrow apy?
Wouldn't it make more sense to call it borrow interest or something?
I mean i've seen it on most uh linux platforms. It's borrow apy
Uh, I think well because the thing is interest there's interest with like a lowercase i and then there's interest with the uppercase i
And I think uh, it can become conflated with expectations related to interest markets
You know that and that's uh, it depends on depending on people's different regulatory
jurisdictions, I mean, you know
Most newbies just like we see rewards. Yeah, most newbies apy and they think that it's something that uh, they get you know, so
On the yeah, yeah, it's um
That's the debt that you've yielded over time
The debt you yield over time and the the interest or the the earnings you uh yield over time
That's why you also see rewards a lot more than you do. See, um
Other terms which I think are more financial
Like you don't see things like dividends
Um into that when some people are like, oh, it's kind of the same mechanism
It's like well, no, it's it's different that we don't even call them the same thing
Um, and yeah, I think that's good also because it I don't think any of the terminology for this industry is set right now
Sure. Sure. Yeah, go through a very different language and then we'll have generational shifts
But um, so you're always trying to balance
Like how do I relate this to people so they have the knowledge but at the same time?
Um define it for what it is
Uh, which is always the I think a very big challenge when it comes to anything web 3
um, because you you start from a place of like
You're building stuff that nobody ever built before for purposes in an environment that uh didn't exist like a year ago
And you're it's like hey new people who don't understand any of this stuff at all. Come on in
You know, it's like oh god, it's such a strange challenge in paradox
Kevin we've been going for
one and a half hour already
And yeah, I think that we could wrap up
discussed more of most of the points about testing and defy a lot of defy discussion which
Maybe my favorite topic, you know, uh, even if I don't get many chance to discuss defy
I'm a big fan of defy in general. I also, you know, uh interact with most defined apps and stuff
But uh, yeah, it's not very
Popular I would say in the status ecosystem. It's not very popular yet, but um
It will get there. It will get there. I think
It's meant to be boring is the thing that I think also people need to know
Um, if it's doing its job well enough, it will always be boring
And and yeah, like the reason why we're not sitting here as like every american citizen is
The average american citizen i'm sitting at home thinking about the wall street finance industry
um, unless it's like the hobbyist of it is
Like unless things are going wrong when things are going well, no one's sitting around saying oh wow
look how exciting and interesting the
World of numbers is and look i'm not doing its job
Well, no it's not but it's the lifeblood that drives everything else
They do of their towns their communities things public and private. Uh, uh
Children to adults to the like the city that you live in the
Out of the town that you live in the the infrastructure between it the
International relations all like it it is so connected to all of that
But it's it's meant to be boring if it's successful. So right now, we just got to scale this boring thing up
Get people in get people using it get people to know about it. It's a time of market education
Um, and once we start to scale this out, we'll start to see defy scale overall
Object will scale its price point will naturally start to see an increase in price points. Um that are comparable to other
quote unquote richer ecosystems
Uh, and uh, yeah, because we have everything else in tesos
This has been the last sector that's been needed to be fulfilled. It's the last bolt that needs to get screwed in
Um bolted in uh, it's less screw that needs to get screwed and it came at a good time as well
I think since now the market is absolutely kind of
Changing the uh, the trajectory it had the past two years. So yeah
Uh, I hope you know things pick up and uh
We are seeing a lot of efforts from many different teams from many different
People in the ecosystem. So I don't know I think
2024 2005 would be very good years for tesos in general
And yeah, I think it's all come together
Um, and it's um, this is going to be an interesting
uh bull cycle, uh, we've kind of played a very long arc in tesos, but I think the
Are are paying off right now or are going to be paying off this year as it's all come together. Yep
It's not just defi. It's gaming. It's nfts. It's everything. It's the protocol itself. It's the
um, the tools that are have been built like
Tickets have been how long on available on tesos and they are just not oh my god, right?
So and even now it's just a fun experiment right now
But I mean yeah stuff that have been built in the past it's getting it gets time for them to be utilized. So
I think in the next uh two years, we will see a lot of new things come out and
Pop up, you know things that will will bring excitement and new users and stuff
So let's hope for the best
Thank you all so much for joining. Uh
I've been seeing you all down in the audience. Don't think I didn't notice you. I appreciate you all so much for joining
before we wrap up my usual reminder about the
tesos commons community rewards program
Go nominate people each month. We give up to five thousand tests to
Different people in the ecosystem that bring value in one way or another people that you know do some good stuff like
Uh, maybe they write articles. Maybe they have great
Conversations on twitter constructive conversations. Maybe they just help on board other people. We have nine different categories. So
You can check them out on tesos commons
Go there fill the form nominate people. There are a lot of good people in the ecosystem that are helping, you know selflessly
So I think they deserve to be rewarded. Just point us at them, you know
And you can also use the tesos crp hashtag on twitter and on discord
We always look at those when you see something like that when you see somebody helping somebody else or doing something good for the tesos
Ecosystem just put the hashtag beneath it and we will see it
Stay updated with the ecosystem news
Uh every week we're getting out the baking sheet, which is the newsletter of tesos commons
I have pinned up in the space the latest one, which is the issue
186 but every week, uh, we got aj and uh gathering all the cool news and the good stuff that you should know, you know and
The newsletter is sent out every friday. So subscribe to that stay updated
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So you want to be subscribed to that?
And again, thank you so much kevin. Thank you again for joining me, man. I always enjoy our conversations
I enjoy you very much. I appreciate you and you know, we could go on for hours like
So with that we'll be back next tuesday with a community call
Stuff that you have going on. Uh, ask your questions, uh, let's just
So have a great rest of the day or night depending on where you are
And take care everybody much love. Bye. Bye