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Twin Talk: Apple AR/VR-Building in Bear market-AI love or hate it?
Recorded: June 7, 2023 Duration: 1:18:31Space Recording
Full Transcription
Good evening, everyone, and for some good morning or good afternoon.
Starting the space in a few seconds, we'll just have some people drop in for another 30 seconds and then we'll kick it off.
Well, without the music, it's boring, and I don't dare to press too many buttons here.
So, we'll just start with some introduction from Hashback.
Mark, good to have you here again.
I know my brother is not coming, so you're my sidekick and my muse and my inspiration this evening.
How are you, Mark?
I'm doing great. How about you, Janon?
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon to everyone.
Great to have Sigtoshi from the Mad V-Apes here.
And I think we're missing Basile and the OutKings.
Hopefully, they can come through.
But, Janon, excited for this conversation.
There's definitely been a lot of news with the Vision Pro coming out on Monday
and also what it's like to build in a bear market.
So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.
Yeah, for everyone who's joining online, feel free to request
and to pitch in with the talk because we like to have these shows where we go a bit sideways discussing everything.
And this is one of those shows.
And we're hoping, indeed, that the Kings will be coming.
Well, it's a one-man show, by the way, now.
So, the OutKings will be showing up as well.
He did notify me this afternoon that at last minute it was a bit difficult for him to join.
So, we're hoping for him to join.
But Mad V-Apes are here.
So, that's great.
I'm messaging Basil from the Legends to also come and join because he sometimes also forgets.
He's like me.
So, the French like to come a bit late.
That's chic, très chic.
So, I'm messaging him now.
And give me two seconds and I'll be back with you guys.
Awesome.
Yeah, how's it going, Sektoshi?
Hey, doing good.
Doing good.
Glad to be here.
It's been a busy start to the week.
But, hey, if you're not busy, you're not doing it right.
You know what I'm saying?
A hundred percent.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'd like to have my schedule completely packed.
Otherwise, it's...
I mean, the problem then becomes to find some time to do other stuff.
But, yeah, definitely.
I just got a message from Basil.
He's joining in a sec.
He had a mini-game hosting on his website.
So, he needed to be there.
But, he'll be joining.
So, as we said, just très chic French style.
So, that's great.
So, he'll be joining as well.
But, in the meanwhile, we can already, let's see, start the whole show, of course.
And, we know that H by Joe and Milan, they had a show with DAOs and stuff.
I don't understand, last week.
But, they're going to have another show next week again, I think.
I don't know what it's about yet.
But, stay tuned on our Discord or Twitter if you want to know.
Because, we try to do these spaces weekly, every week.
But, we take turns.
So, sometimes, every two weeks, H by Joe and Milan do a show.
And, we fill up the gaps, me and Mark now.
Because, my brother is letting me down again.
No, but that's okay.
My brother is just so busy, guys.
So, maybe we need to call it Patron and Mark Show.
Or, the hashback slash Earthling Show.
We'll see.
But, we'll continue this show anyway.
And, we're going to make it a fun show as well.
So, today, we're having a bit of a fun show going sideways.
There was a lot of talk about this new Apple toy.
And, I would love to know everyone's opinion about it.
Because, I've got some, just like AI.
Everyone knows that I have a lot of hate relationship with AI.
Yes, we go along.
Because, if you don't, then, you're going to miss out, of course.
You do need to go along.
Go with the times, especially when you are building a business, of course.
But, there's always pros and cons.
I like to live in the old world.
Where we all, well, you took a horse to go to the next village.
But, on the other hand, it was so cold at night.
Because, you didn't have central heating.
So, yes, there's pros and cons everywhere.
And, I romanticized the world that we lived in 100 years ago.
Well, not me.
But, yeah, we have to go with it.
And, I do love gaming.
So, there's some pros there, as well.
And, AI is going to help with that, as well.
And, also, another topic that I like a lot is, are we in a bear market?
And, I see some guests in the audience that probably have something to say about that, as well.
Because, yes, we spoke about this.
Are we in a bear market?
Are we in a bull market?
Personally, I feel like we're going a bit sideways.
And, I'm optimistic for what's to come.
But, I would love to know what your opinion about this is.
And, what does AI have to say about that?
So, maybe Mark can tell us.
Or, maybe when I'm talking, he'll be using his chat's GTP to see what AI has to tell about the bear market, bull market, sideways market that we're in.
Well, I'm curious to hear.
Mark, who do we all have on the show today?
Can you enlighten us?
Yeah.
So, we have Shiktoshi from MattVAPE's massive NFT collections on the VeChain blockchain.
Great to have you here.
Always a pleasure.
We'll also be having Basile from Legends of the Past.
Like you mentioned, he's just finishing off some game on his website.
So, looking forward to have him on here.
And, hopefully, we'll also be joined by the Alt King, which they've been doing awesome interviews for months now.
May was part of, participated in one of the interviews.
And, it was, you know, doing interviews is always, it takes so much work.
I mean, we do them every Monday with Infinity and King Solomon.
And, the amount of research that you have to do, it's incredible.
So, yeah, no, I'm really excited to dive in to these topics.
I was extremely excited to see Apple finally coming out with their Vision Pro.
And, also talking about, you know, building on the bear market.
But, yeah, with that, I'll probably, yeah, I'll pass it on to Siktoshi if you want to do some quick intro of yourself.
Yeah, sure.
Like you mentioned, I'm Siktoshi.
I am the lead community team member for MadVAPE's on VeChain.
But, I also do a lot of stuff with cross-chain.
And, it wouldn't be far-fetched to say that MadVAPE will probably be going omni-chain as well in the future.
You know, we've been networking and building relationships.
And, although we have, you know, a top project on VeChain, I think we need to put our project and community in the best place.
And, give it the best chance at success and growth.
And, I think that means exploring other chains and networks.
And, so, yeah, it'll be a fun ride.
We've been just steady building for almost two years now, which is crazy to think about.
But, I think this space is still super early.
I think Apple coming out with this, you know, is a really cool thing.
My, I gotta say, my favorite book of all time, Call Me a Nerd, I Don't Care, is Ready Player One, right?
The movie was not that great, but the book, incredible.
Incredible.
And, I just feel like it's scary, but it's also cool, like, that this stuff is coming.
You know, this is stuff that we've seen or read about or imagined in our heads, like, for such a long time.
And, now it's starting to kind of come out and come to fruition.
So, where it leads, I don't know how far it goes.
I don't think anyone knows, but it is pretty exciting, I would say.
And, we'll kind of get into whether or not we're in a bear market.
I'm sure we'll talk about that stuff.
I think if you're building and doing the right things, it doesn't necessarily feel like it.
But, if you look around, there are signs that we are in a bear market.
But, there's things you could do to make sure that you come out stronger on the other side.
And, I think you look around and find the projects and people that are doing those things.
And, you stick to them and support them.
And, you'll be good.
So, yeah, that's a little bit about me and excited to be here and talk about these topics.
I'm going to hijack your space a bit now, Mark, because the other two speakers didn't sign in yet.
So, I want to ask Satoshi.
Man, how do you pronounce that?
It looks like Satoshi.
I want to know, where did you come up with that name?
That's not your real name, is it?
Because it sounds so cool.
Tell me.
So, when I first started Twitter, I found this meme of Satoshi Nakamoto smoking a cig.
And, I thought it was just funny.
So, I made my name Sigtoshi Nakamoto and it just stuck.
So, that's how I came up with it.
Ah, you even have Nakamoto behind it.
So, it is indeed.
I dare not to press your name to lose the space.
Well, I'm going to do it anyway.
Let's see what happens.
Ah, yes.
Sigtoshi Nakamoto.
Well, that's cool.
So, okay.
Well, I love the name.
So, that's going to stick.
Thank you for being on the show.
And, it looks like you're going to have a lot to tell about this VR stuff.
And, I think VR and AI combined, man, that's like a power tool that everyone is going to use.
And, okay.
I'm going to throw it back to Mark.
Because, Mark, you can throw it to Legends.
Because, they just onboarded it.
Yeah.
So, Basile, great to have you here.
Yeah.
We did a brief interview of you prior to Yoichi coming in.
But, great to have you here.
I hope the event that you had going went great.
But, yeah.
If you could do a short intro about yourself and what you guys are building, that would be awesome.
Yeah, cool.
So, thank you very much, Mark.
And, thank you, Patrick, for the invitation.
As always, a pleasure to be here to chat about anything.
So, I'm Basile.
One of the two co-founders of Legion of the Past.
We're building a Web3 mobile game based on historical character.
It's mobile.
It's mobile.
A mobile game in which you will embody and battle with your historical characters against others.
It's going to be a competitive mode and also cooperative mode.
So, you battle with some friends against some historical bosses.
And, that's it.
Sorry if I'm a bit tired.
Because, we were organizing a small mini game to distribute, in a different approach, some heaven keys.
Our whitelist for our next mint.
And, we were discussing with the community on how everything went.
And, actually, it went very smoothly.
We had a lot of people connecting at the same time to participate in the game.
So, we now have to improve the server offload.
But, anyway, that was great.
Thank you for having me.
And, very happy to be discussing about the topic at stake.
I'm a huge fan, personally, of tech overall.
But, Apple, personally, I've watched many of the keynotes.
So, I'm very happy to be discussing these cool tech updates.
Man, it looks like we've got the right panel here, Mark.
Do you also have a lot to say about this new gadget from Apple?
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, it's something that's been teased about.
And, there's been so many rumors on, like, so many websites about, you know, this coming in.
It was actually interesting to see how the leaks on the design were actually pretty accurate.
But, in terms of some of the deeper, like, features of it were super interesting.
But, yeah, I'm super, super excited.
I'm a very big Apple fan.
I mean, I think this is, you know, like any other first-generation product.
I think that it's probably going to, like, this is not focused for, you know, mass consumers.
I mean, at a $3,500 price point, it's not like everyone can sell them.
But, I read somewhere that kind of their internal objectives is to sell 10 million of them, which is, obviously, you know, $35 billion in revenue for Apple.
And then, from there, they can start working on bringing more affordable headsets.
But, it's very interesting.
And, also, like, when comparing it to the Quest Pro, which, up until now, obviously, was kind of the king in VR.
But, they haven't really stepped into AR.
It's very interesting.
I've watched a lot of, like, videos from people that tried it.
And, although there's some things that, I guess, there's some pushback on, I think it looks incredible.
And, I think it has the potential, and maybe not this first version, to actually, but, like, you know, future versions.
So, like, version 2 and 3, to actually be a catalyst for, you know, more metaverse games.
And, you know, a new way of, you know, engaging in not only games, but also entertainment.
So, like, Apple TV, Disney+, and all that.
So, yeah, it's super, super interesting.
Oh, I like how you are a bit on the other side of this story than I am.
I'm a bit in between.
I'm 50-50, because I do like this stuff.
But, I see the cons of it as well.
So, we're going to have an interesting discussion here.
You said, by the way, that you watch all the Apple keynotes.
So, I love Apple.
But, that's just because I'm too dumb to use a PC.
Because, if I use a PC, within one day, it's full with junk and parasites and viruses.
And, I have no clue how to clean it up.
This happened to me once.
And, so, this is why I stick with Apple.
So, yes, I do love Apple.
But, I don't watch all the keynotes.
And, I've got an iPhone 9 or 10.
I've got no clue.
Because, I don't care.
My daughter always gets the newest iPhone.
And, I'm stuck with the old one.
But, so, you are a big fan of this product.
Did you know already, like, a few weeks ago, that this was going to come out, Mark?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it was.
So, the biggest thing.
Yeah.
I mean, they had been talking about it.
And, normally, Apple, they release products in their fall event.
Which is normally September, October.
I think this year is, like, the second or third week of September.
But, they released this and a couple of Macs.
So, their Mac Studio, their revamp with M2 Ultra Chip.
And, their Mac Pro with the Apple Silicon.
And, the reason, I guess, the rumored reason why they release this product now is because
WWDC, which was the event that happened on Monday, is basically their developer conference.
And, that's when they released all of their, you know, iOS and the other dozen different operating system upgrades that they have with all of their different products.
And, the thing with any new platform is that the most important part is having applications built in there.
Right?
I mean, when iPhone first came out, there wasn't even an app store.
Right?
So, the reason for them releasing it now and not in September, when the release of this product will actually be early 2024, is to have them give the developers that build in the, you know, Apple ecosystem,
and off time to, you know, leverage the different, well, to basically build applications that could be used with the Vision Pro device.
So, yeah, I knew for a few months that this was coming.
So, it was definitely very exciting to see, to finally see it go live.
And, also, some of the, you know, the interesting things that you can do with it.
Their new R1 chip, which is the Retina tracking microchip that they built.
And, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, I think for anyone that was really keeping up with the news, I think this, yeah, this was a long time coming.
And, I think they even teased, a lot of people thought that this was going to be released last September, but it seemed like it wasn't quite ready.
But, for being kind of a prototype, not a mass market product quite yet, the reviews for now seem very positive.
Well, I got to say, Mark, I hate you because you just said exactly what I wanted to say regarding the application and exactly that how the take is amazing.
But, right now, you don't see, like, a built-in app that is what seems to be revolutionary.
But, they intentionally give some time for developers to create cool apps, maybe some games.
Maybe in the future, we'll see Web3 games.
So, maybe Hustlings and Libran of the Past will be integrated with Vision Pro later on.
But, yeah, exactly this.
I completely agree with you right now.
With just the beginning, they are giving plenty of time for developers to participate and to build.
And, it was not the same revolution, if we can say a revolution, but when they released the Touch Bar for the Mac, it was exactly the same.
They released it, and they told it in advance.
They opened, you know, the developer API so that people could start to work on it.
And then, when they released, when it was out in stores, some developers had already started to code and integrate the Touch Bar in their application.
So, I think there's a great feature for that.
And, also, from a technical point of view, well, I haven't spent, you know, hours, hundreds of hours watching it.
But, I did watch some, like, cool videos, especially one from the Linus Tech Tips, great YouTube videos about tech overall.
And, he goes through the different reviews because of features.
And, well, it looks very, very fun.
And, you know, they have a very powerful GPU.
But, more importantly than that, they are integrating, you know, some new technologies that captivate, like, they use a camera to integrate, you know, and to do, like, 3D images based, like, directly in front of your eyes.
I don't know.
I don't know how can apps, games use that, but it looks cool visually.
And, I'm sure I will see some potential out of it.
Yeah, I think the biggest thing, that takeaway, I guess, is, I mean, there's always a price point, obviously.
But, when you look at it to its closest, I guess, counterpart, although it's not a full counterpart, it would be the Quest Pro.
And, I think the quality of it is insane.
I mean, it's glass and metal.
And, I guess it's pretty heavy, which is actually one of the things that I think that, for the version 2, they will probably be working on.
I mean, the Quest, as of now, it's only VR.
And, pretty much, it's all plastic.
So, you know, I've tried the Quest.
I haven't tried their new one.
But, it's very interesting.
And, like you said, right, it's going to be, like, opening it to developers, it's really where the potential of this will come into play.
I thought that the, what is it, being able, well, not having to have remotes for it was very, very interesting.
Just, although they really pushed the productivity aspect of it, I think that, you know, the productivity thing is still a ways away.
I think, for the most part, for now, it's going to be focused on entertainment and gaming.
And then, if, I mean, I haven't tried it, but, like, if the productivity aspect is insane, it's going to be very cool.
But, to be honest, I don't see a lot of people, I guess, I don't expect a lot of people using a Vision Pro at a coffee shop to work.
Like, you know, it just seems like a little far-fetched.
And, also, the two-hour battery is not the best.
Well, that's going to change in time, I think.
I love where this is going, by the way, because, just to be clear, yes, I love this product.
It's just that I do also see where it could lead to.
And, to make the topic a bit interesting, I'll be trying to bash down on it, even though I love it.
I really love it.
But, I'm one of those people who puts a thing like that on my head and gets dizzy and stuff.
And, I know we have some in that audience who have the same thing, I googled it, and research shows that 20-40% of the people get nauseous or other effects from stuff like this on their head.
Maybe that's more with VR than, because this feels more like AR, I guess.
Yes, Mark?
Yeah, it's a mix.
It's a mix.
It's the motion sickness, and that's definitely a thing.
I mean, and I think motion sickness, it's also paired with having to hold something that is like, you know, a kilo on your head.
I mean, that's not the most comfortable thing when, you know, you don't have anything in your head that weighs that much.
But, yeah, motion sickness is definitely something that is kind of an impairment to VR and AR.
It's kind of like the range anxiety with electric cars, kind of the same type of thing with AR-VR.
But I think that the interesting part with the Apple stuff is that the way that they're aiming to fix that, I think, and they didn't address it directly, is with their reality immersion stuff, with their toggle on the side of the VR display, of the product, where, like, you can actually see around.
And also the fact that, one, it's 4K, so, like, when you're looking at stuff, it's 4K.
I think, I don't know the exact stats on the Quest Pro, but I think the Quest Pro is around 540 to 1080p, which, like, there's a big difference.
So, like, 4K displays on both sides is very big.
And also, the one thing that, on the reviews that I've watched, they talked about is that there's no lag between you looking around or looking at your fingers.
So, that should address this.
But I don't know if we're going to learn about the motion sickness until there's, like, product, like, more in-depth product reviews, I guess, until the product actually hits people's hands.
Oh, but there's more that I can bash down on.
But, again, I like it.
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
I'm going to give you so much more.
I want to know where Siktoshi is.
Is he on my side or is he in the middle?
So, there's no sides here.
Guys, I just want to have a fun topic today.
And I like to see all the positive and the negative sides of these things.
And it's great that this is your thing, Mark, because I like to bash a bit on all the things that you like as well, so that we'll have a bit more fun.
So, we'll be the good and bad cop for the Apple AR.
I think it's AR, not VR, actually.
And, yeah, let's dive into this thing.
But, Siktoshi, what do you think of this?
Do you want to use it as well, maybe even for your product?
I'm in the middle.
I'm in the middle.
I think it's awesome that technology is moving forward.
I think it's really cool.
I like that it's more AR rather than VR.
I feel like too much VR.
I mean, we're already – like, look at social interactions between some of the younger generation.
It's like they don't know how to talk to each other already because they're so immersed in their phone.
You know, start getting really into VR, and it's like people don't know how to act in the real world anymore.
So, I'm a little worried about that, I'll be honest.
But I think this is a really cool product, and I think a good AR product, you know, this can kind of lead the way.
And it'll just be interesting to see what kind of functionalities they do roll out with it.
I mean, this is Apple's first iteration.
Look at what the iPhone has done since, you know, their first iteration to where they are now.
So, you already know that they have more stuff up their sleeve.
They plan, like, five ahead or something.
You know, it's crazy.
So, yeah, I mean, it's exciting.
I think we will probably end up trying to do something with it, you know, within our project.
We always want to be on the bleeding edge of stuff.
How it fits into our project, I don't know yet.
You know, we'll see.
But, yeah, it'll be fun.
I think it's really cool.
So, Patrick.
Yeah, you go, you go.
So, Patrick, I actually have one thing.
One thing that I push back on it, which is the FaceTime thing.
I don't know if you saw it, but they basically scan your face.
And then, like, if you want to do a FaceTime, so you have it on and you're immersed into it.
And then you see the people that you're talking to FaceTime.
But those people just see a visual representation of your face that is, like, animated.
I think that that's not, at least at this point, it's not.
It just, I don't know.
I think it would feel weird.
I think that the FaceTime thing with your phone is already great because it actually feels more real rather than a visual representation of your face.
But, yeah, I mean, that's the one thing that I'll probably push back on as well as the weight and the battery life and stuff like that.
That's not really a push back because that's just a gadget that complements it a little.
But the rest is so cool.
Yeah, I do think it's cool.
Again, I can imagine myself sitting on the couch watching a movie, maybe a science fiction movie, and then changing the whole surroundings as well.
I'm not being on a desolate planet or something or playing Earthlings and having the screen in front of me.
But the whole view, my whole living room changes into a nature scene from our game or something.
So, I think that is where I'm going to hit back hard on this device too in a second.
No worries.
But I do think that those features, man, I would love that.
And it feels more like, even though it's more AR than VR, but if you turn your room into another scene, I guess that's VR again.
But I could see myself doing that if I wouldn't get sick with this device.
And not for this price, by the way, but that will change in two, three years and it will be just like the iPhone.
Everyone will have something like that.
But, so, I've got another but for you.
So, the thing is, oh, first, everyone in the room, just give us a like or retweet.
But at least press the laugh button because the laugh button does miracles.
So, if you don't do it for me, do it for Hashback Legends, Matt B, Apes, or even for H by Joe.
Because he's going to speak today, but he's here.
So, anyway, so, getting back on the topic.
So, what do you think then?
So, Satoshi is on my side now, okay?
So, there's no sides, but he's on my side now.
It's two against two.
So, are we going a bit too far?
I remember when I was, what age was I, 14, 15, because I'm a bit older than most here.
So, I'm 46.
So, that's quite a long time ago.
And we had these watches and we thought they were so cool.
And all they did was beep, beep, beep, beep, because you had a little calculator on those watches.
And you went to the watch store and you saw this round thing with glass in front of it.
And you could turn it around.
He saw all these cool watches.
And then I walked back to our school because it was lunch break.
And in front of the pet shop, yes, I still remember like it was yesterday.
I said to a friend of mine, I said, wouldn't it be cool if we could have these watches with a screen on there?
And we could call each other like in Buck Rogers.
Yes, I'm of that era.
I think a lot of people here still know Buck Rogers.
And I think they had these watches there too.
Maybe it was another sci-fi series.
I don't know.
And we've gone past that.
The last 20 years, things went so fast.
Then all of a sudden, like 10, 15 years ago, we got all these smartphones.
And I remember friends of mine saying, what kids then?
Man, I come back from work and there's my wife and two kids sitting with a phone on the couch, not even saying good evening to me.
Now we're going a step further.
So are we going to see every – because if anyone can, it's Apple.
No one got tablets to be a good product until Apple started it.
I remember that well.
Apple marketed the tablets and people are calling a Samsung tablet an iPad.
That's how good they are.
So they set off this new thing.
Are they going to make this the next, let's say, iPhone where someone calls his phone, even if it's not an iPhone, an iPhone?
Are we going to go there?
Are we going to have people staring at the screen in their visual 3D world when we get back home?
Is that a good thing or not?
And let me ask Satoshi first if he has something to say about that or else you can skip it because I like to have someone on my side here.
I see Epp is on my side.
He's sharing a lot of blog.
Satoshi, do you want to say something about that?
I mean, I agree to a certain extent.
I don't think – and again, who knows?
But I don't think we're going to get to like a full point where like everyone has this and uses it like all the time.
It's like all they do.
I mean, but then again, that's kind of how people are with their phone.
And I don't know if people realize that phones were going to be this much immersed in people's everyday lives.
But you have like a computer on your phone or like in your pocket, which is crazy.
But yeah, I don't know.
I don't know, man.
Are we going too far?
I don't think we've gone too far yet.
But are we headed in that direction?
I don't know.
I don't know yet.
Let's hear what Legends has to say.
Well, you know, Anissa, I might be a little bit on your side, Patrick.
Because, well, although I love technology overall and when I see, you know, the videos and the potential, like the intuitive interface with the eye tracking and the head gestures from the Vision Pro, I love it, technically, from a technological point of view.
But overall, from a more philosophical point of view, I clearly see and I clearly agree that this new kind of technology might, like, incent people to stay at home even more.
It could, well, on the one hand also triggers people, yeah, to be less, you know, active elsewhere.
And, well, I love personally to read books, like real paper books.
And, you know, sometimes people can level the argument that due to new technology, especially phones and smartphones now, people don't read, well, young adults and teenagers don't read as much as they would have done in the past without this new kind of technology.
So, I agree on this kind of aspect, but I think I am an optimistic person.
And so, overall, I deeply believe in the technology and I deeply believe that things are moving in the right direction.
Sometimes we take a step back from and we can see, well, some negative outcomes directly.
But if, well, again, it's a really, like, philosophical question because big corporations such as Apple has to have this philosophical, you know, yeah, point of view as well.
And they need to take into account some human, you know, aspect and not surely profits.
So, this is a whole new debate.
But I think that, overall, right now, we are living in a world in which people's mindsets are a little bit shifting towards technology.
They want to, on the one hand, embrace it, but also they are aware of what's, you know, yeah, of its limitations.
And so, I understand and I think that we should be, like, very cautious with this new kind of technologies.
I just feel that, yeah, from a technological point of view, it's pure beauty.
And we still have time to see how this will change, you know, our world.
And overall, right now, I think that this, well, highly expensive price, well, it creates an instant, you know, a barrier.
You won't see, you know, like a million of people tomorrow, you know, with Vision Pro on their head due to this price.
And so, yeah, I think it may take some time, but we need to be cautious at the same time.
I think, I think you all bring up a very, very good point.
And I'm totally with you guys.
I'm more on the side that I don't think that this is the final form of, like, what's going to, like, I don't see, like I said, I don't see people using this in the street.
And also, I don't think that, like Basile said, like, I don't think that this is the version of it that will actually bring in a lot of people.
I guess we'll have to wait and see until kids start using it and really get used to it.
Because then at that point is when, like, there's an inflection point.
I also, but like, yeah, I really agree in terms of the, you know, having people spend too much time on this.
It's another thing that kind of pushed back.
It's like they had this one video where it's like there's the dad and there's the kids playing.
And then it's like a birthday party and the dad is, like, recording it with the Vision Pro on their face.
And that seems a little dystopian to me.
But I'm more, I think that the ultimate, I guess, computing platform is going to be more, look, something more like something that, you know, that actually looks like just normal glasses and or potentially, you know, something like Neuralink, which just got the FDA approval and so on.
But, yeah, I mean, I'm totally with you.
I think that in terms of entertainment at home, I think it's going to take it a step up.
But until they don't fix the weight problem and the battery problem, which it's probably still a few years away, I think it's still, I don't think it's going to be a competing platform to the phone.
Just because, like, it's going to be, yeah, it would look too dystopian if you just walked out the street and everyone just wore this.
Go at Tiktoshi.
I'm laughing.
I think you're exactly right.
Like, if I go to my friend's, you know, child's birthday party and he's standing there outside wearing that thing, I'm laughing at him, calling him a nerd, and I'm telling him to lose my number.
Yeah, I mean, it just, like, it just doesn't fit yet.
There needs to be an iteration where it's just, like, every day fits in with, like, every day doesn't stand out like that.
I don't know.
It's just, like, I think it'll continue to improve, get smaller, more lightweight, blend in more with everyday life.
But it's a cool first step, for sure.
You know, I keep going back to, it just reminds me so much of Ready Player One, and I'll go back to it real quick.
But, like, you know, for those who don't know, it takes place in, like, this dystopian, you know, society.
And pretty much, like, everyone is wearing these haptic suits and these VR goggles or headsets or whatever, and they're living in the metaverse for the most part.
And, like, I mean, do I think this is going to happen in the near term?
But basically, like, everyone works and makes money in the metaverse.
And so they, there's, like, you know, maintenance is put off on buildings and, you know, because what's the point?
And people don't take care of their own bodies because what's the point?
They're only seen in the metaverse.
They're not going out.
You know, they're not going out.
And they only need to care about the metaverse.
And it's the first thing they do when they wake up, and it's the last thing they see when they go to sleep is in the metaverse.
So, I don't know, dude.
It's interesting.
It'll be cool to see where it goes.
But I think, like, Hashpack said, you know, it'll definitely be a cool thing to have, you know, in the house to kill some time.
And, you know, I don't think we'll be seeing people walking around in the grocery store wearing this thing anytime soon.
Yeah.
Let's hope.
Like, you did give me a nice sideways subject, Mark, because you were speaking about the neural link.
Like, would you consider having a neural link in your brain then?
I mean, not a first version.
Not at all.
I mean, but in terms of the idea of neural link, in terms of the immediate use cases for, like, you know, people with certain, like, physical inability due to accidents, I think that's super cool.
I think it's going to take a long time.
And also, like, you have to think that, you know, the first version is never the best version.
I still remember years ago people using RFID things and implanting them inside of their palm or something like that.
And that's not even become, like, mainstream.
I mean, I don't know anyone that has anything like that.
But, I mean, I don't know.
It's going to be – that's almost like a whole other can of worms.
But it's definitely something very interesting just in terms of, like, the potential, you know, use cases.
Also for, like, older people, like, with cognitive decline, having something like neural link increases their – would increase their – just their day-to-day life.
And – but, yeah, I mean, that's – yeah, that's a whole other big conversation.
It is.
It is.
And neural link scares me a little bit.
This new Apple toy, I love it.
But, yeah, there's always pros and cons with everything, of course.
As I said, 100 years ago, yes, I romanticized that era.
But it was freezing cold at night.
So, there's good things about every era.
And I do like where we are now, having central heating.
And, well, in my case, a wood stove.
But I got a forest next door, so I'm fine.
But – so – but we are going there towards AI as well because I guess neural link uses AI as well.
I guess everything is going – well, the last year I've been talking, everything is going to go on the blockchain.
And all of a sudden, a few months ago, maybe a little bit longer now, AI came into my life because it popped out – to me, it popped out, like, from nowhere.
But it was already there for longer, of course.
I was just so busy with my game that I didn't see all these things happening on the background.
But now it seems to be everywhere.
And, of course, I can't imagine Apple not using all this stuff as well, of course, in their headset.
It's probably already in there using – with all the smart functions that are in there.
But what do you guys think?
So, is AI the combination with this – are we going to have a holodeck?
Let's say it like that.
You know Star Trek.
Are we going to have these super cool holodecks?
How far is it going to get?
Is AI going to complement even more and make it even more cool?
Where are we heading, guys?
Give us your take on that.
Anyone?
Mark.
Mark.
I think – yeah, I think it's – I think it's probably going to be enhancing it.
I think also AI, there's a good overlap with blockchain, DLT, in terms of just the data provenance of it.
I think it's going to be a mix.
I mean, I don't know.
There's so many things.
I mean, just this aspect of the Vision Pro AI.
Obviously, AI is just growing so fast.
But you also have to think that AI actually came out in the 50s.
I mean, it's not like it was like a kind of a, you know, one day we woke up and we had AI.
It's like they've been working on it on the 60s.
I mean, I've created neural networks in the past.
It's just the levels of advancements.
It just increased so much.
And there's like a lot of – like there's a hardware layer and, you know, just the hardware had to keep up.
And I think it's going to be the same thing with ARBR.
It's, you know, the hardware.
Apple put out a very compelling product.
I think Facebook has a compelling product.
It's just a matter of iterating.
And, yeah, I mean, it's – I think all of these things will, you know, communicate with each other.
And it's going to be – it's definitely going to be interesting.
I don't know quite yet if it's going to be kind of like Star Trek-like because holograms have been around.
But, like, they're not all that good and they're not mass-consumed.
I don't know.
It's definitely going to be interesting.
Well, the pace that they are going in now, man, that is fast.
Every time I scratch my head seeing something new, I'm saying, what, already?
Then the week after, they're coming with another two.
I've been using Photoshop for years now.
That's the program that I've been working on a lot.
And even Photoshop now, if you have a forest and you want a lake in there, you circle it and you say, give me a lake in the middle of the forest.
And they paint you a lake in your forest like it's a real picture.
It's amazing.
So, you see all these – and as I said before, Unreal Engine is using it now as well.
So, if you're building a game, Unreal Engine is making sure you're not being left behind because they're giving you all the tools to build your game faster.
So, that's amazing.
What about AI players in my game?
I write a very long detailed storyline, give it to this player, and he can give players hints for quests or where to go or what happens in the past if they need to solve puzzles.
Let's be honest.
That is a cool feature that you can have in your game.
And there's a lot more happening, of course.
So, I just wanted to ask you guys.
So, I've been using AI as well privately.
And I'll tell you in a second if you want to know.
What have you – so, Mark or Basil or Sigtoshi, what have you been using AI for?
It doesn't need to be necessarily for your project if there's a project secret, but tell us.
Yeah, I would love to jump in on that because, okay, 20, four years ago, exactly, yeah, four years ago, exactly, I built – I was very proud of it – I've coded and built a Chrome extension that was doing, you know, about – was supposed to do like an instant summary of YouTube videos.
What it would do, it would like extract, you know, the subtitle – yeah, the subtitle document, you know, some videos, like TED conferences, for instance, they often put the subtitle document in the YouTube video.
And so, I would like extract it.
And then I would use what was like four years ago, the state-of-the-art, you know, state-of-the-art summary library using a library called TensorFlow.
And with that, I was doing some summary of text, but it would take like one minute.
So, basically, like, it was working, but it would take like one minute.
And so, well, because, like, the concept was to have an instant summary of the video that you're about to see.
And now, when you see, you know, like, TEDGPT, for instance, when you copy and paste the document inside and you ask it for – for create an instant summary, you have a summary in like one second.
And that's amazing.
And, you know, so I've been playing with AI, well, first, you know, like, yeah, because I like to call the small stuff.
And now, you know, and I've thought about this and said, oh, then I should recode my Chrome extension so that I could implement it with OpenAI algorithms that now we could have technically summary, you know, summary function based on every YouTube video.
So, yeah, absolutely love this and as Mark was saying, what's amazing to see the growth, especially from – it all comes down to computational, you know, computational KPIs, to say.
Meaning that it's all matrix calculation and, you know, like, even four years ago, it would require a huge amount of energy and training to do those math, basically.
Whether it be like to NLP for, like, text or for computer vision for, yeah, for images.
And now, in the recent four years, you can see some video of OpenAI and they explain how the algorithm has been trained and how it's, like, learning from itself.
It's, like, from a computational point of view, math calculation, the power generality is amazing.
And now, especially in SADPT, when you see the difference between SADPT, like, 2.5 and SADPT4, from an answer point of view, you have, like, better answers.
But, yeah, it's more well-written and more, like, yeah, intelligent, so to say.
But from a mathematical point of view, I forgot the exact number, but I think it was, like, yeah, 1,000 more powerful in terms of computational, you know, cognition.
And so, yeah, that amazed me.
And to see that we are living in a world where everything goes so fast, you know, it's the law of Moore, in which, like, every year the computational powers multiply by three or five, I forgot the law.
But anyway.
Are you a programmer?
I mean, you secretly sound like the smartest of us.
Basile, are you a programmer?
Well, I'm not as good programmer as Neil.
Neil is a real mastermind.
But I do, yeah.
As a matter of fact, when Neil, because, like, Neil and I, we've been working together and building games for the last four and a half years.
And at first, our first video game, I was the one who started it.
I built the first, you know, like, the first beta concept on Unity.
But when Neil entered in my life and started debugging, well, he was way better at coding than me.
Because, like, I did a business school, so I learned how to program on my own on YouTube.
But in comparison to someone like Neil who's been to engineering school, obviously, he's smarter than me.
And so he's way better than I.
But, yeah, I love coding.
And so, yeah.
But I only do, like, small stuff.
Like this Chrome extension that I recently mentioned.
Everything that is difficult goes to Neil.
Smart and humble.
In a second, you're going to tell us you speak French as well.
Mark, did you guys use...
I don't know if I'm allowed to ask.
So if it's a secret meant to be kept, then don't tell me and just tell your personal experience.
But is Hashback using AI, too?
Is it far enough to already do some programming?
Because according to Quinton, our programmer, and Basil can probably answer that as well,
he says, not far enough yet for me to use.
But maybe you find some other ways already.
Yeah, so one immediate thing that we've already done, and it's actually been implemented for months.
Nobody, like, we've...
It's, yeah, it's through the ticketing system.
So we, if you have Zendesk, you can implement different AIs in there.
And although it's not perfect because there's a lot of different support queries that are not recurring,
and it's more of a one-off thing, that's already been implemented.
And that's leveraging Zendesk.
And then in terms of the coding side, I mean, I'm not a coder, but, I mean, I've been using AI for years now.
I mean, you mentioned the seal TensorFlow.
I remember breaking my head trying to figure out how to work it and everything, right?
And all of that is really, really interesting.
And then, obviously, I mean, for a few years...
I don't know if it's been a few years, maybe a couple years now, at the co-pilot.
I know that I'm not 100% sure if Tyler and Nick use it, but the good thing about AI is that it helps you review code and understand code a lot easier and a lot faster.
There's some times where it's like there's a lot of things and there's some bugs and, you know, you think you've tried everything and you throw it through an AI and it's like, oh, here's this.
But I also think that we have to be careful about, you know, about the risks that come with AI.
I don't know if you guys saw some of the headlines about Samsung and Samsung employees using ChatGPT to code.
And they basically put their source code into ChatGPT and then there's like some exploit and stuff like that.
I mean, you know, because there's AI, we shouldn't be forgetting about, you know, the data that is given to that AI.
Right. But I think it can be a good way of, you know, collaborating and really just increasing productivity.
I mean, I think that there's there's some studies saying that, you know, with AI, a lot of companies have become, you know, 30 percent more.
What is it? More productive. And I think that it's a massive opportunity and people are not using it and leveraging it the right way.
I think we'll fall behind. Personally, I use it.
I use it quite a lot. I got very into the trenches with prompt engineering.
And I think that that's actually that's that's something that will be massively valuable in the future, because like if you assume that AI is here to stay and that more things will be intertwined with AI, it's going to become like the race or the game will become how do you become better at, you know, prompting the AI and using the AI.
And that's for now, for the most part, it's through prompts.
So, yeah, I mean, it's I use it quite a bit when I was studying on my MBA.
I used it and it's definitely helped a lot.
OK, I have a question for you, Mark. What is your best prompt?
The prompt that is like either no one knows or the one that you often use when you don't know your best prompt.
So, I mean, it's there's there's a variety. I think that the biggest thing with a prompt, I mean, I write pretty much an essay before for a prompt.
I have a bunch. I have a ton of them.
I think that there's like a bunch of different videos.
I mean, I'm thinking, like, I don't know, 40 or 50 hours worth of of of courses on this thing.
And actually, a couple of days ago, Google put out a free course on how to prompt AI and how to use a little bit of AI.
But I mean, I remember when I got early access into Dali, I think it was October.
Actually, it was earlier. It was like, I don't know, August last year.
It's last last summer. And just I just spent so many hours.
And I think the biggest thing with it is that you have to cover everything and leave the least amount of room for hallucinations,
which it's something that has happened with AI, which basically just kind of goes on a bender and just makes stuff up.
So if you provide a lot of context, I mean, I'd say that in terms of words, I'd probably give it, I don't know, 300 words to 500 words per prompt when I really want to get something detailed.
If it's a quick, quick question, you can just go back and forth.
But if you want something concise, yeah, 300 to 500 words, it's really normally the best.
So you're writing an essay to get an essay.
OK, well, that's good. Actually, that is how I'm using it, too, because I do use it to enhance some writing.
But actually, I did try to use it for, well, I asked it, OK, here's what I'm building.
What would you do? Give me some super cool game ideas.
And it didn't give me any good ideas.
Luckily, we already have a box full of good ideas.
So that's not the problem.
I was just wondering, what would he give me?
But all these things that you already know of and that you don't need to be, well, it's the obvious things.
That's what he was giving me.
And for stories and stuff like that.
So I wrote a little story to see how he would finish it.
And I was happy with my story.
And he finished it like a little children's book.
So maybe I wasn't prompting it to write well enough.
So I actually don't use AI for making stuff up.
I do use it to correct my grammar because, well, English is not my first language.
And if I say, give me some fancy words, then it fancies up my text.
So that's cool.
But otherwise, I think it's going to take, well, I hope it's going to take at least two more years.
But maybe next week I'll have this moment again.
What?
Already?
That it's doing this better than I thought.
But for me, on that aspect, it's not really a useful thing.
And I want to go to Matt Vapes on this as well.
Because I see a lot of AI being used for NFT arts.
But if I'm not mistaken, Matt Vapes, they've got real artists.
And I must say that looks so much better, in my opinion.
And I'm hoping I'm right.
In my opinion, it looks so much better than AI.
But that's probably going to change in a few years as well.
But so Siktoshi, you have, you didn't use, I think you didn't use AI for your arts.
Did you?
No, no, we didn't use AI for our arts.
We haven't really leveraged AI that much in our project yet.
I don't know.
We've had a few community members who are bouncing around the idea of creating Web2 businesses, leveraging our brand.
And they've done some cool stuff with AI for, you know, potential marketing and brand logo ideas for their Web2 businesses.
And it's been pretty cool to see that because it just gives people so many more tools and resources because this person is not artistic at all.
But AI spit out these awesome logos, you know, in a matter of seconds that he could just pick and choose from or continue to improve upon.
And so I think that part of it's cool.
We just, I don't know, we haven't leveraged it yet.
We haven't used AI for our project yet.
It's not to say that we won't or we're against it.
We've just kind of been doing stuff the old school way up until this point.
And hats off to you for that because I still do prefer that.
And I have been, one of my 3D artists, he knew that I have AI as well on Discord, Midjourney, and he asked me to create the logo through it.
I said, okay, well, let's try and see what happens.
Well, it gives out some nice designs for gaming industry.
He wanted something for gaming industry.
It was pretty cool, but you still have to recreate it in Illustrator.
That's what my brother, Marcel, works in for logos to give it this high-resolution quality, of course, because it's always a little fake.
You can't really use it, of course, in print if you don't make it a sharp outlined image.
But I must say, it's not up to that level yet, I think.
It's great for inspiration, for everything.
That's how I feel about AI.
So, and also for logos.
But yes, if you want to have an amazing image of an epic female warrior on a battle scene background, man, you'll fall in love with this woman.
It does people, especially faces, in an amazing quality.
I must admit that, yeah.
So, in the coming years, it will probably be better and better and better.
So, yeah, we'll see where it goes.
Maybe we should do this talk again in two years, see what the price of this new Apple toy is, see how AI is integrated, and if we are all out of a job because of AI.
Well, we'll see.
So, switching gears a bit, the topic, so AI, it can't predict me what to invest in now to see and how long the bear market is going to last.
Is it the bear market?
Is it not just a sideways market?
Just want to have a quick opinion.
Anyone in the audience, if you want to give us your opinion on it too, then feel free to request.
Then Mark might get you up on the stage.
I see app requesting, and I would like to hear, did any one of you guys hear of Plan B?
And if you heard of it, enlighten me, because it's been a while since I've read up on it.
Marcel, my brother, knows everything about it.
But if I believe Plan B, well, we've got a big surprise coming yet, and Bitcoin is going to go way higher.
So, I wonder.
So, I'm giving you some food for talk here, guys.
Raise your hand if you want to jump in.
Well, Ab, go ahead.
Do you know Plan B?
Yeah.
Well, crypto and Bitcoin in particular is not going to fly until they inject liquidity back in the system.
So, you'll have to see the markets actually, well, equities in particular, capitulate, which they're causing.
So, you have a lot of topics, but more of my expertise should probably be economics.
So, we are still in the bear market.
We're actually topping right now.
And because they've raised interest rates, you know, 5% in a year, which is the most ever in any hiking cycle, that pulls liquidity.
Plus, they're trying quantitative tightening, which is pulling liquidity.
And then, so, every time you have an asset bubble with 0% for the longest expansion in years, you're going to have a massive recession.
And the way that you know that you've had a recession is the unemployment goes up at some point.
And, so, you have the credit spreads blowout.
And, you know, the recession does not start.
Well, since after World War II, no recession has ever, or the markets have not bottomed prior to the recession starting.
And they typically bottom when you're finished lowering rates.
And then, it's never, recession has never happened while they're still raising rates.
So, we just had the first leg down, and we'll have one more flush.
And then, I think they'll be forced to monetize the debt.
And then, with that injection of liquidity, the liquidity from the central banks are what, you know, caused the last, you know, crypto bull run.
Which is why it actually was created in the first place after 08 when they started QE.
So, I think that'll be the next wave for crypto.
So, I think it's actually relatively close, you know, months away.
So, I don't think we have to wait too long for that.
But, in real terms, you know, this is, we're more in a more secular, stagnationary period for probably 10 to 15 years.
Once we, we kind of ended the whole 40 years of lower interest rates.
And then, now, as the wealth inequality has widened so much that, you know, people are pissed off and are demanding, you know, more basic transfer payments from government.
Which causes the inflation that, and that's paid for by the monetizing debt through the central banks.
As far as, like, AI goes, I think AI is, well, as all these new technologies, there's a, it's called Amara's Law, where people overestimate technology in the short run, but underestimate it in the long run.
Which is why, like, you know, even though, in the 90s, people thought that internet was going to revolutionize the world.
Well, it did.
But stocks, you know, dot-com stocks still went down 90%, including Amazon and Apple and, you know, all those.
So, I think we're having the same thing in crypto right now.
And I think the same thing is going to happen with AI stocks.
You're going to see, you know, NVIDIA go down 60%, 70%, 80%, something along those lines.
Now, people don't, you know, think that's crazy, but the actual value of the company, it's, I mean, we're definitely having a little blow off top here for AI.
I use it all the time for, you know, helping, you know, craft stuff and do, like, you know, work with writing and organizing and the jump from, like, GDP three and a half to four is pretty large.
I find it very, very helpful.
I know you were talking about the Apple.
So, Apple makes things cool, and that is so important.
I know when I was in college, like, oh, six, I had the second iPhone.
And, you know, I've been an Apple lover ever since, and I'll never get another phone, just because what they do special is they look at the, from the consumer's experience, and then they build a product around it.
And so, they don't start with a technology and try to build a coolest, you know, thing, new thing.
They start with the person, and they build an emotional experience around that.
And they've definitely taken their time, and I thought what they showed was revolutionary.
And it will, this is obviously the first version, and they wanted to put it out in the public early so people can build apps and make it really fantastic.
And I think eventually that will iterate over a span of 10 to 15 years into something like a glasses form factor that's a lot more lightweight.
And, you know, we still, even though, you know, with FinFET and all that, you know, Moore's Law is kind of reaching its end point.
Like, there's only so many pixels your eyes can see.
We're getting to the point where that's just the next step of, like, full immersion.
And, you know, so I'm really excited about it.
You know, the future is exciting other than, you know, the economics and all the debt.
But innovation and growth will get us through it.
So it's very exciting times we live in.
I think you nailed the head and you hit the nail on the head with a few things.
I think that in terms of the, you know, the next bull cycle or something, I'm a firm believer that I think that what we've had since 08 of having interest rates at nearly 0%, we're not going to do that mistake again.
And I think there's going to be a regression eventually and there's going to be a lot of pressure from just the banking industry just because, you know, they obviously went long on T-bills at, like, you know, 1.5%.
And now those T-bills are paying, you know, 525 to 550, which is really what's hitting the liquidity also on the banking side of things.
And I'm a firm believer that, you know, to have a very healthy economy at this point, having learned from the prior mistakes, having, you know, interest rates at, like, you know, 2, 2.5, something that we'll have to get used to.
To be honest, I think that's still going to take a while until we regress to something around those lines.
I think they're probably going to try and keep it up at 525, potentially.
I mean, I hope they don't hike it again, but we could even see that again.
And also, I mean, the whole debt conversation, that's a whole conversation that we could have.
I mean, I'm a firm believer that I think that, you know, the U.S. still has a lot of potential and a lot of growth ahead of it.
I think that the, you know, the federal government should start thinking about, you know, 100-year T-bills just so basically, you know, because right now I think the longest one, I don't know what the longest one is right now, but like for, you know, developing countries to get on a 100-year T-bill that basically pays close to 0% interest, that would hedge them against their inflationary risk through their currency.
And I think in terms of, you know, another leg up, I mean, I think seeing how the, you know, the SEC and the regulatory stuff comes through, it's going to be interesting.
I was watching, well, listening to a podcast today about Misari raising $100 million to do some basically, what is it, lobbying in the U.S. to start getting some regulation that makes sense and having actual conversation rather than just, you know, regulation by enforcement, which is definitely not working.
I mean, people are pissed off.
And the last thing that we want is for, you know, all the different countries to, in the world to regulate in their own way.
Because then at that point, it becomes very, very complicated to operate in this world.
I think that, and, you know, I think that crypto, just as AI is, and also potentially VR, I think it's still very early on, I think it's a deflationary force.
I mean, and AI is really where you can see that the most, where, like, with the same amount of people, you can, you know, increase output by somewhere around, you know, 30 or 40%, at least that's somewhat some, I guess, research is showing.
And that's going to, yeah, I mean, to hit the bottom or, I guess, hit a recession.
I mean, and this is something that, you know, politicians have been playing around.
They just kind of changed the book definition of a recession.
In my opinion, we've been in a recession for a while.
Otherwise, you wouldn't see price, you know, prices of homes go so as high and just prices increasing as much.
But unemployment is really going to be something that has to keep, yeah, that we have to monitor.
And I think that AI, unfortunately, for, in the short term, might increase unemployment.
But in the long run, it's going to create a lot of different opportunities in the market and jobs that didn't exist years ago.
So, I mean, yeah, long way of kind of addressing the bear market.
I think that building in the bear market is hard.
I think although like in Hedera and some of the, and, you know, Beechain and some other chains, like we've seen spectacular growth over the past year and a half, we're not seeing, you know, explosive hockey stick type of growth, which is what you experience in bull markets.
And I think that it's, hopefully it's months away, but it's probably going to still take a little bit.
And I think it's just going to be more of focusing on fundamentals, building products that make sense and building products that people use that don't, you know, not products that are only based on speculation.
Man, you're on fire tonight, Mark.
I agree with a lot of stuff said here.
The thing that I agree most on, actually, is I think I've said something about, well, it's really special times.
Well, you didn't say weird times.
I think it's weird times.
I think it's one of the most weird special time in human history where things are really going so fast.
And let's be honest, we're entering the matrix with all this new stuff.
CBDCs are coming.
We're not going to start that because that's going to be another hour of food for talk.
Depth ceiling is going vertical.
And according to Plan B, well, guys, Plan B, I think that's the Twitter.
Let's see.
It's, yeah, it's Plan B.
But it's a Dutch guy.
I can't help that.
And it's not the reason why I'm naming him.
He's got 1.8 million followers and he's got this chart.
He's world famous about this.
According to him, well, green days are coming.
It could take a couple of months.
But I try to hope.
Maybe I'm just a bit too optimistic.
Well, we'll see.
But I like him to be right.
Let's say it like that.
Up, say something and let's try.
Well, I talk a lot as well.
And let's try to round it up after that.
Up, what do you want to say?
Yeah, so, no, Bitcoin and stagflation, the last stagflationary period, 68 to 82, gold went 20x.
So, during stagflation and particularly when they debase the currency, you're going to see gold and Bitcoin is just high beta gold.
So, I don't know exactly where the bottom is.
I actually think it'll go much lower and retest the lows.
But it'll do something like, you know, say 10k to 150k.
I mean, you can see something like that.
But, I mean, it really just depends when the central banks capitulate and start to ease again.
And so, it's just, you know, it's impossible to time, you know, human decisions that haven't been made like that.
So, I'm not too worried about crypto, you know, in the long, long run, especially Bitcoin.
So, it's exciting.
It just has to not have too much debt and, you know, keep your job.
And, yeah, AI is what's interesting about AI.
It's not just going to reduce jobs.
It's like the first time in history where the white-collar jobs get reduced.
So, you could see a more, when you have intelligent people not working, you could see a more unstable society because people might get upset.
So, I could see some more civil unrest and things like that than usual because it's, like, the first time that, like, you know, white-collar jobs get eliminated and the lower-end jobs are the ones that are in demand.
So, it's something interesting to look out for.
I agree 100% with everything you said there again.
I think, by the way, and maybe that's a nice ending of the space as well, unless someone wants to say something because, let's be honest, the spaces that take a little longer, those are the fun spaces.
So, I don't mind keeping it open longer, guys.
But I wanted to say, you know, I do think, that's my personal opinion, that we've got some difficult times ahead of us, maybe one or two years where the economy will take a big hit or whatever is going to happen.
But I think it's also a period of opportunities because, let's be honest, investing now, no financial advice, but stepping in now, for instance, in HBAR when it's so low.
And if you see what the partners are that they have, and I must say I'm a fan of Feedchain as well, just addressing Sigtoshi here because that's an awesome project as well.
But my biggest bank now is HBAR, but it's a time of opportunities as well because every time things change, change, powers change, or the economy falls, there are opportunities there.
And that's the way I like to see it as well, to see it as an optimistic thing.
And all these things that are happening now, if you look into the right angle, the right direction, there's always something that you can do with that.
If someone wants to still say something about that, then please do.
Otherwise, I'm already going to thank all the speakers here.
Mark, thank you for always being here, being my loyal companion.
Basile, we found out that you are one of the smartest people on top of my screen here.
Man, I hate you for that because I'm not so smart.
Sigtoshi.
No, stop it.
Thank you for always joining when I ask you.
And it looks like the Hedera community is already getting to know your project because I'm hearing other people talk about the Mad V-Apes as well in the Hedera community.
But also, it is an amazing project, and I love your art.
And I think it's time to do a standoff, or is it face-off in English?
Well, I don't know.
With the hangry baboons one of these days again.
That would be funny.
But thank you for joining us again.
Really, you've got a great project, great art.
I'm happy it's not being done by AI.
And Ab, thank you for your insights because we know that you know a lot about where the economy is going.
I wonder if you are going to Google and look up Plan B on Twitter and see what he has to say because he's been featured in many YouTube shows and, well, 1.8 million followers on Twitter as well.
I wish we had that many followers.
But I had a lot of fun again this evening.
Anyone wants to say something?
Sikdoshi, yes, you say something.
Yeah, I'll keep it real short and sweet here.
But I just want to say for everyone listening and everyone who may listen to the recording back, support the projects and people that are out here doing the right thing each and every day.
Because you want these people to stick around, you want these people to succeed, and you want to be there with them when they do.
It's important to just show the people and projects, whether it's an NFT project or a crypto project, whatever, support and love for being out here every day and working hard to provide value, not just for their project, but for the entire ecosystem.
So I just want to throw that out there, keep supporting the good people who are out here doing good things.
But, hey, I appreciate the time and for the invite and look forward to doing another one.
I'll be sure to invite you again because we love to have people like you on the show, great projects, and always a lot of food for talk.
So I'm going to love and leave you with that, guys.
It was a very fun show to do again.
And I'm going to make sure I'm going to be back.
Yes, Basile, I see you are muting.
But we're going to be back in two weeks again.
I'm not sure what H4Jo and Milan are going to talk about next week, but we'll find out soon enough.
Basile, what did you want to say?
I wanted to thank you.
Thank you again for organizing this amazing space.
Always a pleasure to be here and to have this friendly talk.
Thank you so much, everyone.
Thank you for thanking me.
Marek, any final last words from you?
Because you are my loyal co-host.
No, not really.
It was great to chat with everyone here.
Hope that the audience enjoyed the conversation.
And, yeah, really looking forward to the next one in a couple of weeks.
And, yeah, Patrick, I'll see you in a few moments.
One hundred percent.
Okay, guys, don't forget to at least leave a love or a like or share or whatever, but share the space so that all of these projects that are featured here can grow together with us.
Thank you again for being here.
See you in two weeks.
Bye, guys.
Bye, guys.
