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UNDER EXPOSED EP 18
Recorded: March 25, 2025 Duration: 1:29:41Space Recording
Short Summary
The crypto market is experiencing significant developments, including strategic acquisitions by major exchanges, the launch of new tokens like Trump's stable coin USD1, and a surge in real-world assets on-chain. The industry is also witnessing increased interest in crypto ETFs and stable coins, with expectations for regulatory advancements. Additionally, the NFT market is gaining traction, as seen with Cryptopunks, while meme coins like Farkcoin are experiencing notable growth. Overall, these trends indicate a period of growth and innovation in the crypto space.
Full Transcription
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right, GM, GM, everyone.
And welcome to episode 18 of Underexposed our weekly macro show,
hitting all of the biggest topics and trends across crypto and web three.
Today, today is Tuesday, March 25th.
Spring. Officially here, the sun is shining. Markets are feeling alive. Crypto is green.
Stocks are green. And we're seeing what might be the first sustained rally in what feels like months.
The question, of course, on everyone's mind.
Is the bottom behind us?
Or will this rally fail like the others?
We're going to get into it on today's show.
I'm your host, Tyler D.
I've got my co-hosts in the house, starting with D's,
our collector, coin, stacker, trader, mass connoisseor, and more D's GM.
How you doing?
GM, glad to be here.
Got a lot to talk about.
Our bags are going back up, some hot air is rising,
and we got jeeps with the boots on the ground DAS takes to look forward to you.
jeeps happy to have you back live uh from digital asset summit in new york this past week
full of uh some reactions for us i hope how are you doing dude i'm doing great happy to be here
missed you guys last week uh pumped to give a recap and just figure out what the heck is going on
Yeah, so we're excited to hear it.
There's clearly a lot happening with the institutions, sentiment clearly different from a lot of the folks in CT right now.
So I'm excited to dive into that.
And then folks, our macro expert, Peter Jennings, he's plus Eve, founder of several companies, Peter.
How you doing, Jim?
Todd, doing well.
Excited to be with you guys.
And yeah, there's a lot going on.
April 2nd is going to be here for a week out.
So there's a lot going on.
And yeah, excited to dive into it.
Liberation Day.
It's just hitting me next week.
We will be live on April Fool's Day.
So it will be our Pre, our Liberation Day Eve show.
So that's going to be a big one.
Folks, we'll get into that.
What we're talking about, macro, the Trump's getting deeper into crypto, stable coins exploding in a big roundtable.
There's a lot of action in the deeper Web 3 and NFT streets that we want to talk about on today's show.
But before we do that.
Today's show is powered by Wallet Connect. Wallet Connect is the connectivity network
shaping the future of on-chain U.S. If you've connected to a Web 3 app, you've seen Wallet Connect.
That blue logo is everywhere, an icon of trust in crypto as recognizable as Visa at the checkout.
If you want to learn more, follow at Wallet Connect on X and Telegram to stay ahead of what's next.
We did have some big news at a Wallet Connect again in this past week.
They've had some big upgrades to their staking mechanism.
So staking rewards now 4x higher than they were.
That's 400%.
They launched a new calculator for stakers to see their estimated rewards.
So you could see exactly how many tokens you will receive if you choose to stake.
They just gave out 108,000 WCT tokens in this week's rewards.
And now over 100 million.
WCT tokens take to $107,000 to be exact.
So shout out to Wallet Connect.
They continue to deliver.
Folks, before we get into the show, another quick disclosure, the opinions expressed
on this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the views or opinions of any
organizations they are associated with.
We are here to share insights, provoke thought, and maybe even stir some debate, but this is not,
I repeat, not financial advice.
While we talk about markets, investments, and trends, remember your financial decisions
should be made with the help of your own research or with advice from a licensed professional.
All right. Now, let's get into the meat of the show. I'm going to fire up the screen share for those who are in the stream with us.
And folks, yeah, some technical difficulties with the space. So we're just going to be on stream today. All right, we should be up and sharing here.
So going around the horn, starting and looking at the crypto majors board, we are green on the week.
So Bitcoin 87,800 is up 7.5% on the week.
Ethan 2070, up 10%.
Salada, let's see, up 18% at 146.
It was an interesting week of headlines.
So right after the show last week, we actually, bullish sentiment had hit a two-year love.
as folks were really thinking that we're in for a prolonged downturn.
Then things started to turn around a little bit.
So we had the crypto roundtable or we had the crypto speech that Trump gave at DAS last week.
It was overhyped.
We actually sold off coming out of it, but Trump did vow to make America the undisputed
Bitcoin superpower.
So a big headline there.
Then acquisition news started coming.
So Cracken, $1.5 billion acquisition deal for a futures broker Ninja Trader.
Coinbase, quick on their heels,
in advanced talks to buy derivatives venue derivit,
in what would be a $4 to $5 billion deal,
the largest merger and acquisition,
I believe in crypto history,
if this does go through.
So two major mergers.
We've got the Trump administration looking to put USAID
on the blockchain for transparency.
So positive blockchain news, we had the ETFs.
At the end of last week, it was five straight days green now as of today, seven straight days of net inflows.
So folks are buying crypto via those ETSs.
We had real world assets across a major milestone, $10 billion on chain.
I know Jeeps is fired up about that.
And then really...
shaping more of this macro rally that we're feeling here this week, 24th, 25th.
White House narrows their April 2nd tariffs.
So it looks like Trump and the administration are starting to walk back on some of those heavy-handed tariffs that were promised or at least threatened.
early on. And it seems like the market likes that. We will find out more next Tuesday or next
Wednesday, April 2nd, which Trump is now deeming our liberation day. So those are some of the
headlines that jumped out to me. Peter, I'll toss it to you as always from macro perspective,
a lot to dive into, but kind of high level. What's on your mind? What's jumping out to you here
this week here on Tuesday, March 25th?
Yeah, kind of more of the same.
I mean, I think there's just uncertainty around how much, you know, these tariffs are
going to actually impact markets and how real they are.
Trump's a bit unpredictable in terms of how he governs.
So I think that's, you know, impacted markets in a big way.
Markets were somewhat priced to perfection, a lot of euphoria in the markets coming into
the year.
with Trump getting inaugurated and I think a lot of people just assumed we'd be running back the playbook that we saw in Trump 1.0 and they've been very direct that they want to cut public spending and increase basically
you know private spending and deregulation so I thought the best in
letnik interviews with all in were very telling and it's kind of telegraphed
this so markets sold off kind of with the you know tariff news as well as the
decrease in public spending and now they're just trying to kind of adjust and
we'll see what transpires I my expectations will continue to see a lot of
volatility throughout the year but
Yeah, you look at gold that's kind of pricing that.
It's exciting to see Bitcoin do well.
I think within crypto specifically,
I'm extremely bullish on Bitcoin and stable coins.
And then the rest of the market is a little trickier to figure out.
So there's a lot to dive into.
But yeah, April 2nd will be a big day
in terms of what actually transpires on the tariff side
because the market generally hates uncertainty.
And I think there's still a lot of uncertainty
around what's actually gonna happen with tariffs.
You're spot on there.
I want to rush out and say that the bottom is behind us.
It feels a little soon with April 2nd still looming.
And I feel like we will know more in eight days.
So why kind of come out and make this deep statement like that today?
But I'm curious for your thoughts.
Like directionally, do you feel like the bottom is behind us?
Is it too soon to tell?
And like for context here, folks, Bitcoin is,
Full 33% drawdown.
He fell 55%.
Sol was down 60% in crypto.
The S&P I was just looking at.
What did it go down?
About 20%, maybe a little less than 20%,
maybe closer to 15% or so.
So the S&P holding up better than crypto majors.
as of last week it sure felt like everyone thought we were going lower but curious yeah i mean bitcoin
is really just traded one to one with like the cues um it's not exactly correlated but pretty pretty
close um i think all signs are extremely positive for bitcoin uh i really like what this administration
is done they're taking um very tactful approach cool to see that the you know the bitcoin white paper
uh is in the the white house now um
Sacks has been incredible from my perspective.
They're extremely thoughtful.
I'm beyond bullish on stable coin adoption.
It's so good for the U.S.
We'll talk more about that here in a bit.
But in terms of predicting a bottom, you know, you should always think in terms of probabilities.
I would say it's like a 60% chance that we've seen the bottom of Bitcoin in.
Yeah.
2025, that'd be kind of my hunch, certainly not financial advice.
But that's my, I would say it's, you know, my instinct started to just say, oh, it's 50-50,
and that's kind of a cop-out.
So if I had to pick one direction or the other, I'd say it's more likely than not that
we've had a bottom specifically in Bitcoin.
The rest of the market, I have less certainty.
I'm just extremely bullish on what we could see here with Bitcoin and just kind of the
adoption around the world.
Keep in mind.
while there's all this uncertainty in the US and we'll see how tariffs play out and there's this
short-term pain, the rest of the world is providing a lot of financial stimulus. I mean, we're seeing
that in Europe. We're certainly seeing that in China. Japan's starting to do a little bit better.
So my expectation is that the rest of the world wants to start accumulating more Bitcoin.
And we're seeing that with state governments as well.
I'm as bullish as ever on Bitcoin in the long term.
And I think the market is kind of feeling that same way.
The downside to Bitcoin would be more correlated with like the NASDAQ dropping 20% or something in my mind.
I think that Bitcoin will probably still trade somewhat in line with the cues.
But that's just my opinion.
I don't know.
I'd be curious to hear everyone else's perspective.
Yeah, I'm probably a little higher than you.
I'd say I'm 70 to 75%.
bottom is behind us and agree that the catalyst that would drive it lower would be stocks falling
further or to some unexpected catalyst. Jeeps, curious for your thoughts. What percentage are you putting
at that the bottom is behind us here for crypto majors and or equities? Yeah, I think I'm some place in
between, you know, the both of you, barring, you know, there's no, you know,
major shakeups that we see within the next, it's called three to 12 months. It seems like we're
entering a period of de-escalation as opposed to escalation right now with the number of
sort of macro and political situations going on around the world. It seems like the Trump
administration is looking to
either squash certain beasts and or try to negotiate his way out of certain things that are happening around the world.
So I think those are all really bullish.
Now, there's a, like Peter mentioned, a high level of uncertainty and unpredictability here.
And so I think, you know, we have to be ready for the unknown.
But going back to the interview of Besson, the interview with Lutnik,
These guys care about this stuff a lot.
Like they care about the American citizen a lot.
And I genuinely think that they're going to look to do what's best for folks and really try not to escalate things too much while also going through a period where.
You know, I thought Besson's interview was very interesting.
I think Besson's really well spoken.
He has a lot of interesting thoughts, right?
He wants market-driven growth, capital discipline, you know, declobalization.
The expansion of tariffs has been really interesting, right?
Lucknick went on to say, you know, if we can get things net, Trump agreed to no tax on an undisclosed amount,
but I think it's been like 150K or lower an income, which could be, you know, pretty big.
So I do think we're entering this really bright period right now, but as he's pointed out,
there's certainly a period of pain during this transition.
The other thing, going back to before, you pointed out a number of mergers and acquisitions in the space, there's also been increased IPO activity.
So it looks like Gemini's going to go out for an IPO.
I saw this morning, E. Toro is looking to go out for an IPO.
And so these are all really positive signs, I think, in the market.
And stuff we kind of saw dampened down over the past few years.
And so just super positive signals, I think, all around.
I'm with you. A lot to unpack there.
And I put a pin in the best end and Lutnik reactions because I want to dive into that deeper.
D's, I want to give you a chance to weigh in.
Broader thoughts.
What percentage do you think we're bottomed?
Or do you think we're going lower here?
What do you think?
Yeah, I would be closer to like the 55, 60%.
I didn't make any big bets.
So I can't say with high confidence that, you know, I was plowing money into a bunch of dips thinking, you know, where the coast is clear from here.
So a little lower.
But I mean, I guess that's still pretty high.
I still think we're just probably going to range for a little bit.
And it does feel like for better and worse, we're just tied to equity prices.
That's what the last month is.
Like looking at this chart, it's like for all the daily emotions, we're literally like sideways for the better.
Yeah, I've had some lows.
We were so over when it was under ADK.
You know, we were so back a couple days ago.
Wouldn't be surprised if there's some new headline that we're not talking about that makes us so over for like three more days and then, you know.
I could just be numb and not thinking clearly, but I do think we're more likely to just kind of do what we did last year where it takes months to resolve.
And it's not just like, oh, hey, guys, we made it through one month of consolidation.
Now we're going up again.
It's like more likely to me that we consolidate more.
Which is generally like a fine time to like just keep DCA again.
Um, you think there's going to be a higher leg, right? Like you're getting a bunch of time to to buy cheaper coins. And we are seeing, you know, during this consolidation, some olds start to outperform over the last week or two, which is good to see.
Yeah, plenty of pockets of opportunity, even amidst the chop.
I guess before we move on, last macro comment here, and Peter, maybe I'll tell us this one.
How important is Liberation Day, April 2nd?
Are you expecting a lot of volatility?
Do you think we're going to get the answers that we need to have a clear direction for the rest of this spring?
How are you thinking about next week?
I would say it's pretty important. I don't think we're going to get definitive answers.
I mean, one thing, this administration is moving very quickly and certainly Trump has been impulsive in the past and I imagine that will continue. So
You know, I think there's always negotiations, but it's definitely a big day and we'll see what happens.
And I think the market's just looking for more certainty around how tariffs are actually going to be implemented and what reciprocal tariffs look like and just how things proceed.
I do to me, we can dive and maybe help transition here.
I think that there's some really positive catalyst.
And Jeebs in particular has pointed this out multiple times.
I mean, the.
If we get certainty on the tariffs or more certainty on the tariffs, I don't think we're going to get definitive certainty.
But if we get a little bit more certainty, I think we're going to get stable coin legislation extremely soon.
And then on top of that, we could see kind of this Russia, Ukraine war potentially, you know, come to an end.
And those are like the really big catalyst and why just kind of going back to, you know, our percentage outcomes.
I do see some.
a decent part of the probability curve where we see Bitcoin specifically really accelerate in price
and maybe outperform the cues with some of those catalysts.
i'm really excited about that and yeah from a macro perspective you know the next big date we
have some we have some stuff on the calendar we have some more inflation stuff coming on thursday
um and friday i should say sorry on friday we have the core pcee index the core pcee
year over year personal spending personal income etc so there's some other data points that we're
going to get here um but yeah april second's going to be big and then i want to get into
kind of the crypto specific stuff that i think
specifically on stable coins could be very big for the industry.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think a couple of things that jumped out to me in this area is broader macro in the last week.
So last week, Jerome Powell speaking at FOMC and basically saying that they are projecting
worst case scenario with the tariffs.
So if these do come in lighter, lighter retaliatory,
then we expect it.
I think that's going to be a positive for, you know,
what Powell is able to do with the next FOMC.
That's bullish.
And then I also had a chance to listen to Scott Besson's pod, finally.
And this isn't, I guess, necessarily news, so to speak.
But what really jumped out to me about listening to him was the plan that they have in place.
It's thoughtful.
It is gradual.
He specifically mentioned that they want to enact change by 2028.
They have target metrics they want to hit.
But they also don't want to come in and just crash everything.
And for me, that was reassuring.
I want to hear from you on this as well.
I know you've got some thoughts.
There was a broad part of this country.
Maybe it was a political divide.
Maybe it wasn't who thought maybe there was no plan.
And it was just bull in the China shop coming in, wrecking havoc.
And for me, it was nice to hear Besson saying, basically, we want to reduce the debt.
We want to drive growth via deregulation.
And we want to build up onshore and create cheaper energy.
But curious for what stood out to you from that pod.
Yeah, I think that's exactly it, Tyler. There was like four major themes that I pulled away from it.
It was spending cuts, tariff expansion, push for industrial reshoring, and then rebuilding the financial markets purely around what he considered to be like real interest rates.
And he's been hammering home this point that, you know, he likens the U.S. economy to an addict that needs to wean itself off of excessive federal spend.
stimulus culture and cheap money.
And so he really wants to see the private sector start to take over.
And I think it's clear that they have a vision for that,
but it's going to take time, as he's pointed out,
as we move from excessive government spend
into maybe incentivizing certain industries,
promoting corporate America,
promoting entrepreneurs,
promoting the private sector to be able to grow in a healthy way.
It's a decent paradigm shift.
I mean, America obviously is one of the top entrepreneurial countries, if not the top entrepreneurial country.
And so I think it's they clearly see the path for them to get where we're at now to where they want to be.
But to his point, I think he's been saying what, 18 months?
Yeah.
I don't recall his exact timeline.
I do agree with you that it's a paradigm shift.
And I feel like, let's say Kamala wins,
I feel like it would have been most likely a lot of the same,
continuing the same path we were on.
And maybe that would have been more comfortable in the near term.
But at some point, like the bill was going to come do.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
I think one of the things that I took away.
Oh, sorry, Tyler, my bad.
No, go ahead.
I think one of the things that I took away from at least what's going on right now,
you know, when Trump started to talk about tariffs, I think the market was pricing in him going in with a more precision approach.
And then as they were announced, it's turned into more of a war and a more of a battle, a very tit for tat.
We're going to just lay down blanket tariffs.
I think yesterday there was a threat.
You know, we're going to impose 25% tariffs for anyone that buys oil from Venezuela.
There's these very large blanket statements.
And I think what we're seeing now, which is providing some hope into the markets, is they're starting to scale that back and take more of that precision approach, which I thought, you know, a lot of people have thought initially.
Right.
And so it's been really hard to gauge it from a market perspective because they're taking sort of strongman political approaches with other countries right now.
But I do think maybe this is a sign of how we can go and play things moving forward.
Meaning if there is a really large, impactful...
statement from the White House that's very broad when initially maybe we think it's going to be
precision that there's a probability that later on it gets rolled back prior to being implemented
in a more precise manner. So I'm not sure how markets are going to price that in, but it's definitely
something I'm going to keep in mind going forward. I feel like one of my reasons, like listening to
Besson talk, super thoughtful man. And then like knowing Trump's style is like, is Trump the like the
negotiation tactic where he's just going to come out?
And say, you know, all these outlandish things.
But then to your point, like the actual plan behind the scenes was, you know, very precise.
And like it starts out broad and then it actually kind of tightens up.
And then he kind of sets the states for that.
Is it kind of like a dynamic?
It might be.
You know, what I grabbed from that one, like the best interview I thought was really good.
He's very, very intelligent.
He articulates his points really well.
The Lutnik interview was just like a fireball.
Did you guys listen to that one?
I'm halfway through it.
Yeah.
Oh, my.
It's long.
I mean,
it's long,
right?
But, um,
I'm still trying to gauge what's going on there.
Is it Lutnik who's actually kind of pulling some of the strings in the background?
It's clear that he maybe isn't getting the credit that he wants and really wanted to let the crowd know during that podcast.
Like, hey, I'm the guy.
It's my ideas.
I'm the one that's sort of recommending all these things and doing all these things.
He's also clearly really smart.
Like he remembers a lot of these facts.
He studies history.
The way he presents it, though, was really the word I'm looking for.
You come across as like the New York salesman.
He's got like that vibe to a degree, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It almost seems like he feels like he's not getting the credit he deserves
and he really has to let everyone know, you know, hey, I'm the guy.
I'm the man.
There's an ego.
Very confident guy.
Ego, yeah, a little bit ego, yeah, for sure.
A lot of bit.
Yeah, Besson is extremely comforting as an American citizen
to having him on the administration.
He's,
the most competent politician that I can remember, one of the most prolific investors of all time.
And I think his strategy makes a ton of sense.
And one other component that's critical is he's really looking to reduce inflation through energy costs.
And energy costs, you know, that filters throughout the entire economy around the world.
To me, that makes sense. If we can get de-escalation and end this war, keep bringing down energy prices,
that's going to really help inflation. And then technology is also deflationary. And if we empower
the private sector, specifically through deregulation, that can make a lot of sense. And then the
most exciting thing is just how he continues to talk about stable coins. And we've, you know,
been bullish on kind of that adoption and the total market kept growing on this show and my
confidence in that is just grown exponentially I wish there is a way to bet on this and I think a
lot of people you know even at Das and other podcasts are listening to they're talking about this it's
very hard to make a directional bet on this but it just seems inevitable that we're going to see
the growth here and the really exciting part about this is that it's extremely good for America
It's going to basically enhance the role of the dollar around the world.
More and more people will start using the dollar through these stable coins.
And in addition, these issuers are going to be buyers of U.S. debt, which is absolutely necessary with how things are.
We sold so much short-term debt, which that was another comment best made being critical of the Allen in the past administration.
They were selling a lot of short-term debt.
which didn't make a lot of sense and we have to you know basically refinance and that's
part of the goal here is bringing down the 10 year investments talked about that a lot
bringing down the debt so that we can refinance at lower rates because our interest payments
alone are basically on par or some people are saying higher i would have to look at the data
with our military spend which is clearly unsustainable so kind of
Kind of the flywheel here is we get more and more stable coin usage around the world.
Developing countries use it.
I mean, we talked about the Stripe interview in the past.
They're heavily involved with their acquisition of bridge.
I think we'll see more and more competition in stable coin space.
And there's more worldwide adoption.
all these people are going to have to buy treasuries or at least they should i think that's kind of
what the what makes sense to me if it's going to be truly backed one to one having it backed by
treasuries makes a ton of sense and if we're able to refinance our debt with those stable coin
issuers buying the debt we're in
we're in a much better place.
So I think Besson really understands that.
And that's why I'm so confident that we'll see this legislation get passed sooner rather than later.
And if you've heard SACs talk about kind of what's actually going to happen within crypto,
I think they took a really registered approach with the Bitcoin reserve.
They're not the first step is not selling Bitcoin that we have.
And then the other thing that he's been talking about emphatically is stable coin legislation.
To me, those are the two easiest things to bet on that they've telegraphed.
Those are both really exciting for crypto in general.
Those are true value creation that we've seen.
Stablecoins are basically instantaneous and costless, great for the world, Bitcoin, the
new form of digital gold.
And then we'll see what the rest of the industry.
So I'm beyond stoked about what stable coins are going to do for the crypto industry and
then also what they're going to do for America.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I want to get your thoughts.
So Trump, they're dropping their own stable coin.
I think it went live yesterday.
I don't know if it's live for trading yet.
U.S.
Yeah.
We had Tethers trying to get an independent audit from a big four firm, I think, so they can be a little bit more reputable, perhaps embraced in the U.S. a bit more.
Fidelity filed for their own on-chain U.S. Treasury Fund that's basically backed by a fund that goes and buys U.S. treasuries.
And then the Biddle token.
Okay.
past one billion i think it's 1.7 billion now going to hit two billion next month and they expanded
to lana so there's been a lot of action in this past week and peter went there already but i think a lot
of folks see this it's accepted and now folks want to know how to bet on it i'm curious if that's where
you were going to go jeeves your broader thoughts here on this stable coin explosion
Yeah, yeah. Just one last quick thought on Bessent, two things. I think one of the key points also that I got out of that is his concept of the reassertion of national sovereignty through the financial system. He thinks that, you know, capitalism is our answer to fix a lot of these problems. And I fully agree with kind of their plan to move toward that. I also love that he meets with J-Pow for breakfast.
I think it's like once a week.
I think that's huge to have these synergies within government,
especially between these different organizations for them to share ideas and
share thoughts with one another.
On the stable coin side of the house, like Peter said, it's pretty hard to get,
I think, long some of these assets right now and everyone wants to get long stable coins.
A few generalized thoughts here.
The first is I think this year alone we'll see over 100 issued stable coins.
that's going to come from banks financial institutions private companies and i think that's
really good in the short term because as peter mentioned a lot of them will be buying
treasuries backed by treasuries and or
passing on yield via various off-chain strategies to users on-chain.
So I think a majority of these honestly will be yield-bearing,
depending on how they choose to go about the strategy that they're looking to implement.
With that said, I think it's also concerning that we're going to see so many stable coins.
You'll see these five to $50 million stable coins that
sort of no one ends up using, maybe they become venture backed,
maybe a company ends up using them.
Look at a company as big as PayPal, for example, right?
They came out with their own staple quorum.
They offered heavy incentives, and it's just really not as used as the two major players.
I think this is inevitably a duopoly.
Maybe it ends up being an oligopoly because it's winner-takes-all.
Like you have someone like JP Morgan that comes out with a stable.
I think the companies I'm looking for most closely to release a stable and the way I think
I'm looking to get long stable and this is not financial advice is likely going to be through Robin Hood.
I think it's likely that we could see a company like Robin Hood release a stable and it can gain massive traction and adoption through that.
I think it's through private companies that we're going, you know, retail will have to get long through stables, unfortunately, because a lot of these deals are going to be venture backed and or financial institutions are just going to go ahead and release them.
The risk here is like all these other smaller companies that end up creating these five to
$50 million stable coins that are helping to prop something up.
They're funded in some way.
At some point then, they'll either have to get acquired and or sell those treasuries at some point.
So slight and small risk, but I think the general, like Peter mentioned before, the general
adoption of stable coins has been huge.
Yep.
And it feels like it's going to keep going.
I think you're right on those risks.
I'm very curious what's going to happen on the lower end.
of the spectrum here.
An interesting, a few interesting takes, actually I saw right before the show on ways to play it.
So DC investor, unsurprisingly, one of the louder Eath Bulls.
over the last four years, at least since I've been following them since early 2021,
said the best way to bet on stable coins is bet on Ethereum and that it will be obvious in hindsight.
De's, I see you laugh.
I'm curious if you have any thoughts on buying Eath as a bet on stable coins.
I mean, that's just the classic guy whose biggest bag is Eith talks about how betting on the current hot trend is good for his biggest bag.
I mean, I don't, I'm not betting on Eith to correlate.
That man will do anything to pump EVE.
If there was, you know, that bet to be made, you could look at current ETH price performance versus the amount of stable coins and easily say, hey, there's not a correlation here.
Like, just off the current data we have. So.
You know, that chart does not look like the ETH price chart, Tyler.
Like, let's just pull up the ETH price chart and give the people a visual
because maybe they forgot what it looks like.
But there's not a strong correlation.
There's not a strong correlation there between the amount of stable coins coming on chain
and the ETH price chart.
You know, maybe that changes, but I'm not betting on it personally.
I'll continue to store my ETH in, you know, pixelated JPEGs that are catching a bit instead.
Which I am one way to get long, right?
Yeah, what better way to long stablecoin jeeps than to buy punks?
Yeah, exactly.
Can you actually tell it?
Could you go to the Artemis stablecoin dashboard?
I just think it's a little more informative.
Yeah, did you send it to me?
Let me send it here.
Let me send it to me here for a second.
What's hilarious is I've been talking with Nick Tamino privately, and I asked him, you know, as an individual investor, how would you try to go along, stables?
And what would be the best bet?
What do you think he said?
Ethereum.
I mean.
Yeah.
Just response.
At least he's on brand.
Yeah.
So let's play that out.
So like clearly smart,
Nick Tomato is a smart guy.
You've said that as much.
He's done incredibly well.
DC investors also done incredibly well, right?
And I'm a fucking moron.
So like it has to be like Ethereum's the bet.
Like we had two smart guys versus a fucking moron.
Like clearly heathes the bet here.
What is the thesis?
Like,
like let's go a level deeper than.
I mean,
like to me like the surface level thesis is,
the black rocks of the world, the fidelities, they're coming on chain with real world assets,
and they're building it on Eith. I guess the response to that is, well, why does that mean
the price goes up? Like, what does Nick say? Has he gone into more detail about why he thinks
he's, he has in like his letters to, you know, one confirmation LPs and uncalls and, you know,
he's going to point to the decentralization of Ethereum versus other L1s and
you know the developers and that you know it wasn't you know VC backed coin and it's at the intersection of
you know what is these crypto natives and and Taurus so he has his usual kind of directional stuff that you can see on
Twitter he's done those walk-and-talks as well and I have the utmost respect for him as I've mentioned
multiple times so we'll see
There's a lot of people calling Freeth to do well that are heavily incentivized with big bags.
So I get the skepticism there.
But yeah, how does it actually flow back into the ETH price?
Because I think the counter would be, how is Ethereum going to monetize this?
Because a lot of this is clearly going to happen on L2s, and that monetization doesn't really flow back into Ethereum.
So, and if you look at just...
isn't like pump pumped out funds still doing more revenue than like ethereum as a whole right now
i mean it's it's hard to just from an economic standpoint paint like the bull case for ethereum
based on fees um maybe maybe things change um i'm still trying to wrap my head around it and generally still
kind of the same boat as you guys where my favorite bet on ethereum is something like crypto punks
which we'll talk more about i mean jeez why look at this chart i mean
I mean, Ethereum is when the stable coin race.
Yeah, I mean, if you go up top and go to the usage tab, all the top, usage, yeah, there you go.
And then scroll down a little bit.
So right there, there you go, right?
Look at Ethereum compared to Solana when it comes just to the total amount of stable coins that exist.
I mean, it's, you know, a tenth of it.
Yeah.
So it has more, right?
It's always kind of had more.
I think it has a bit more history.
there's a lot of financial activity and stuff that goes on within the Ethereum ecosystem.
It is still kind of the king of defy.
Will it always be?
I mean, it depends on kind of what you want to use stable coins for or what you think the growing trend in stable coins is for.
So like over.
kind of the span of time up until right now, you can argue it's been used for collateral, it's been used for trading,
it's been used for more of these defy-centric activities.
So it makes sense that Ethereum has the highest supply.
If you look at where Circle is issuing at a more rapid rate, I think you can argue Salana over Ethereum.
I probably have to look into that data.
but it's clear that they see the need for stable coins there.
And from their business model, right,
their game to issue as much stables as they can, right?
Because the more staples that they issue,
the more revenue that they can actually generate.
With that said, I think if you think about like, what does the future of stables look like,
it'll still have a large trading component, but we're going to start seeing stables likely
used for more real activities.
I mean, remittances is obviously one that people tout a lot, but I think you'll see a lot
of payroll start to be done via stable coins and stable coin infrastructure, benefits,
kind of anything that requires a large
sort of deal transfer, we can go into the RWA sector there.
I think when it comes to capital formation,
for a number of these RWA deals, stables will likely be used there.
So I think now you're talking about more of the movement of these stablecorns.
And I'm just not sure that someplace like Ethereum, I'm not even sure base is going to be the right home for this,
because you're going to want it to be a fraction of a penny when you're doing all these transactions,
especially if, let's say, yeah, I mean, it could be, yeah, something like that for sure.
You want it to be as low as possible.
for these types of situations i agree with you there i think what else jumped out to me is
us dc it's killing it they're outpacing everyone right now they just signed a deal with
now they're the exclusive stable coin for japan um i'm not remembering on top of my head
has circle discussed plans for an ipo is that just rumor they have an ipo already
I think it's rumored.
You know, I've seen that one on the secondary channels a lot.
That deal has gone up about 40% on the secondary markets in the past like two or three months alone.
So I think people are anticipating an IPO for them.
Yeah, they filed in 2024, early in 24, if I recall correctly.
That's not what I'm right.
If you think they're going to be the winner.
Can't blame them.
Jeeves and I were chatting about this months ago and he's like, hey, check out the secondary
market and I started poking around and didn't pull the trigger, of course.
It's hard to be satisfied.
I first saw like $3.8.
Yeah, $3.8, $4 billion.
And then it was just like, that feels cheap to me for like what could be the winning
stable coin, especially in like an American-led crypto run here.
USDT, there's a lot of questions.
If they're not able to get audited.
USC seems like they're in the pole position.
So I don't know.
Let's move off stable coins for a little bit, but perhaps tangentially related,
Jeeps, the digital asset summit, everyone's coming away.
I feel like they're coming away bullish.
But what were your boots on the ground takeaways?
I came away bullish too.
You know, it's one of those crypto conferences where the guys in the hoodies were uncomfortable.
You know, day one, everyone has a suit on.
Everyone has their quarter zips on.
It's a very buttoned up crowd.
And it's one of the few conferences also where every person I talked to was really, really interesting.
They're working on a data product.
They're working on an ETF.
They work at a major financial institution.
So yeah, we could walk through this tweet.
You know, I kind of brain dumped here.
And then for a longer recap, Yano's now up to like 30 quote tweets of people who kind of have these key points.
I'd recommend going through all of these because they all share everyone's own perspective.
But going up to mine, like I'll walk through some of these points.
So like the institutions are clearly showing up now.
And what does that mean?
It's certainly a mixed bag.
I think there's some of the really big ones who are still in the experimentation phase.
There's some of the more nimble ones who are trying to release a new product.
Maybe it's an ETF, maybe it's some type of financial offering.
Regardless of that, everyone I think is interested in what's going on and they see opportunities to make money here.
You know, Peter and I have a friend who lives in New York at one of the big private equity, private credit firms.
And I had the opportunity to talk to him.
So the big talk right now is RWA's, which is, one, a terrible name for an entire class of things.
Real world assets.
What does that mean?
But it's catchy and it's fully caught on now.
And I'm hoping it can change.
I'm hoping at some point they can adjust this.
But within that, there's a lot of different verticals that are happening.
So like obviously staple coins kind of fall into that. But then there's this whole sector of private equity, private credit, stuff like that. So RWA.xyZ lists out some of the offerings here. And there's a figure who's doing helox. There's tradable who's now bringing the private equity, private credit. And then I don't think there's asset backed lending yet, but I'm sure it'll get there at some point.
But going back to our friend, he explained to me the process that they go through whenever they're doing the capital formation component and distribution component of these really large deals.
And he said it's just a complete pain to the ass.
You have to do capital calls with sometimes 15, 20, 100 different counterparties.
Each one of them kind of wants their say in the deal.
Each one of them, you have to go and do a wire, confirm that, get the funds, fund the deal.
Then you have to, you know, obviously stream out distributions later on.
And so that part, he actually thinks that crypto can really help.
So when you think about the sort of pre-deal and then post-deal components of it, the
the blockchain rails that are being built right now, specifically around RWAs, can help
help a ton around sort of moving things around.
So I thought that was really interesting.
You know, Bitcoin yield, obviously hot topic.
Everyone is sort of loving the idea of that.
Unsure kind of how and where that ends up going in the next three to six months.
But yeah, the biggest part, Tyler, that I'm struggling with is exactly what Peter brought up before.
It's where does the opportunity lie for retail to be able to invest in this and end up winning?
And I still don't have a great answer.
You know, today I saw the ME and Google were building sort of their own infrastructure.
So, yeah.
I don't know that it's going to be something that's on the token side of the house.
I'm starting to wonder, should I be looking at the more institutional plays
and or tech companies that are helping and partnering with,
with some of these companies to build out the infrastructure and scale.
So I'm struggling with that question.
I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts on where potentially the investment might lie here.
It's so funny that you say that. It's very related. I wrote my newsletter today on this survey
that went out as a part of this ETF conference that took place, the exchange conference in Las Vegas.
And some of the stats, the surface level stats are very interesting, but when you dive in a level deeper, it paints a different picture.
So the headline, crypto ETF's getting massive popularity.
That's a positive.
57% of U.S. financial advisors plan to add to crypto ETFs.
But...
when you actually read in what they're particularly interested in is crypto equity
ets to provide exposure to companies holding crypto slash involved in crypto so i think this is
kind of where you're going with this jeeps so let's these investors start to come in it's not a
guarantee that they're going to go straight to tokens in fact
It might be more likely that they go the company route because that's their wheelhouse, right?
They understand how to underwrite companies.
They understand how to do their financial forecasting versus trying to understand how we still know.
We're seven years into Ethereum and no one knows how to value it.
So you're going to ask a financial advisor who is six months into looking at crypto at a surface level to provide it to be able to put a forecast on that.
So this was eye opening for me.
That's a really interesting point.
And I fully agree with it.
Like I wish there was an ETF.
And maybe this ETF exists at some point soon where we can just get long all these
companies that are building or playing in the space.
The last two points, just thoughts from Das.
One is no one is bearish Bitcoin.
No one.
There is a lot of up and downs in terms of Ethereum.
But no one is bearish Bitcoin.
Okay.
And then you got to give shout out to Jason and Mike.
Like they put on just what I thought was a heck of a conference, had an awesome speaker list.
Right.
They had that video from Donald Trump at their conference, the president of the United States,
coming out and providing a little cameo.
So, you know, shout out to them for putting this together.
You know, then they have permission lists coming up in a few months,
which is definitely more of like a crypto native conference.
Yeah.
So I think as we're entering into conference season, we might start to get like a lot of announcements coming up.
We have consensus coming up in Toronto, permissionless coming up, token 2049 in Dubai, ECC in Paris.
There's just a lot of stuff coming up.
Now, maybe that means that we may not see a lot of progress on the other side because everyone's just going out and road showing.
Maybe less building happens.
But I think at minimum we'll start to get more information.
i think one of my high well that first of all thank you for this great recap i think one of my
highest level takeaways from all this is that we're like we're in this new era of like it's the
suits versus the the the huddies right it's like you've got the the native crypto bros who've
been in this for four years eight years perhaps longer and and now you've got the the buttoned up
institutional players who are just now kind of coming in the door but they're coming in with a lot of
firepower
And it's going to be a different meta in this era, I think.
Peter, I'm curious, is listening to Jeeves.
Anything that jumped out to you or from anything else that you saw?
I'm a broken record here.
But it just validates kind of how I'm thinking about crypto as a whole.
And it's just Bitcoin is in such a different category.
And you saw that from everyone.
It's really hard to value what these other crypto assets are worth.
Bitcoin to me is pretty easy to value.
Bitcoin is a better version of gold.
It's digital gold.
And gold's market cap is somewhere between 17 and 21 trillion, based on all the numbers I'm looking at, somewhere in that range.
And, you know, Bitcoin's at 1.6 something trillion right now.
Like, yeah.
I expect that ratio to continue to go down.
I expect Bitcoin to continue to grow relative to gold.
Actually, I'm bullish on both of them because that's a directional bet on fiat currency
being worth less and less, which we know.
That's how the world works, especially when you look at some of the country like the US.
We have this 37 trillion of national debt.
Best way to make that worth less is to inflate it away.
I think we'll continue to try to fight to spend less under this administration.
I really do believe they're going to try to do that, but broadly the strategy is going to be inflate that debt away.
So I want to be long these hard assets and I think Bitcoin has solidified that.
And just given what we're seeing, the freaking white paper is in the White House now.
At Das, Jeev says no one is bearish on Bitcoin. Everyone I talked to that used to be so skeptical of crypto,
is interested in Bitcoin.
I don't know if they're interested in the rest.
So I have more conviction than ever on Bitcoin.
I'm hopeful that why we're here is not just Bitcoin, but
it's just so much easier to paint kind of a highly convicted bet on Bitcoin,
especially when you look at these suits that have huge amounts of capital,
and they're thinking about crypto as part of their portfolio,
not just, hey, I have a crypto portfolio.
They're thinking about it in the context of equities and energy and all these other things.
Like, it has its place, and people are going to start allocating basis points to it.
So to me,
it's just more obvious than ever that bitcoin's kind of in a class of its own so of course there's
things that are going to have you know more asymmetric upside than bitcoin um if you can identify
those great those things certainly are going to have a lot more risk as well so i'm just
getting more and more bold up on Bitcoin.
And then yeah, still trying to think through stable coins
and hopeful that we can find other things
that will provide a lot of value to society.
And it could be RWA's.
I think we're all excited about prediction markets.
I'll see what happens with gaming.
Defi is certainly really interesting.
But there's more uncertainty there relative to what Bitcoin is
and its narrative of digital gold,
which is getting stronger by the day.
One counter to that.
And I'm blanking on who at Blockworks said this.
I thought it was Mike, but maybe it wasn't.
They said that basically anytime they were at one of these conferences in the past and everyone's highest conviction play was Bitcoin, that was a bottom signal.
And effectively, Alts rallied from that point.
And that that feels like where we're at.
Like on this on our show last week, and I mean, we're saying some of the same things now.
Bitcoin felt like the only like real crypto major leader that was a comfortable investment.
Yeah.
And then Bitcoin doubled in price.
Yeah.
But we could see Bitcoin dominance fall and whatever else.
It's just if you're going to allocate real capital, it's just it just so.
you're it's less of a it I guess the better way to frame it is Bitcoin to me feels more like an investment whereas other crypto assets feel like more of a gamble which kind of depends what you're here for.
Yeah. It's the only thing that I can I can feel really comfortable recommending someone who wants to get into crypto to buy at this point.
I think it's in yes, I would tend to agree with that.
Also, I wouldn't say telling someone to buy Ethereum feels like it would, is like a pure gamble, though.
It's not. I just don't feel comfortable with it.
It's more speculative, though, right?
Like, it's harder than me.
We just talked about how do you value this?
And listen, if all crypto ever becomes is just based is Bitcoin.
Yeah, I think that's a great innovation and will be good for society and, you know,
there's some interesting stuff i don't think that's the case i'm definitely not just a bitcoin maxi
i'm hopeful we have more value creation and there's certainly way more
asymmetric upside and more value creation that can be had on these smart contracts and these other L1s and other crypto assets.
It's just it's harder to say that's definitely one of them versus what Bitcoin is right now.
But these, I'd love that. I mean like you've been so immersed in the space and despite what you said,
I admire and like follow you more than almost anyone in the space. So like what's your what's your perspective here?
Yeah, I think if you're trying to onboard friends or, you know, normies or big institutions,
it's a lot easier just to sell them on digital gold and have them buy the ETF.
If you have them buy the ECTF, they don't really get the...
see the same. I feel like to be bullish on ETH, you have to personally use the network.
Like, it's hard to like look at metrics and shit and be like, oh, this is an exciting investment.
If you actually use it, you fuck around with defy, you fuck around NFTs, you do things on chain.
It makes more sense. But I feel like it's harder to sell that to somebody in an elevator.
And I, you know, personally like Ethereum for the other assets on Ethereum, more so than the Ethereum token itself.
But, yeah.
Anytime there is, it depends on what type of like, you know, gambler you are, right?
Like if you're somebody who's trying to make a lot of money like in the next three to five years,
like you're probably not going to make a lot of relative money on Bitcoin versus gambling on the other stuff.
But you're also not going to blow yourself out buying Bitcoin and holding it for three to five years.
you know, you're, you could definitely blow yourself out gambling on fart coin or
maug or whatever other flavor of the day, they're not flavor of the day, but whatever other,
you know, meme coin. It's just,
what type of risk appetite do you have and when i try to onboard people i do just go with the
bitcoin thing because at the end of the day it's the least amount of work most bang for your buck
most people who say the word investing have a longer time horizon and in my scenario you know
most of them are older not younger like the younger the person
the more likely I think they are to want to like try to hyper gamble and run up a large amount of money.
I don't think there's sadly like a lot of 18 year olds who are looking at,
you know, what if I DCA every two weeks into something that goes up eight to 10% a year?
And what does that look like over a 20, 30 year time horizon?
I just don't think they really think that way from my experience.
Yeah.
so it's harder to like get them bulled up on on bitcoins but if you're investing other people's
money it is feels like significantly easier to justify buying bitcoin than anything else because it's just
It's consensus.
Like, it's the common knowledge game of, you know,
everybody knows that everybody knows this digital gold.
So everybody knows that everybody knows we should have one to two to five percent of a portfolio in it.
And you're not going to get fired.
It's like, you're not going to get fired for buying the S&P as a index.
Like, you know, I could get fired as a wealth manager for putting your client in like 60, 40 bonds and stocks.
Or stocks and bonds.
That's a huge point.
Yeah.
That's what I feel like where Bitcoin is right now.
And that feels like a good point to be in at this point in the common knowledge game because it does still feel relatively early.
But like eventually there's just going to be way better risk adjusted returns and other stuff.
I just don't feel like we're there yet.
Yeah, it's really well said.
And I think that that's just from a risk-reward perspective, certainly these big allocators that, yeah, they're not going to get fired.
They can still be an innovative person who's allocating to crypto.
But yeah, there's way more upside.
And I think from people listening to this show.
So a lot of them are crypto natives.
And identifying what is going to win long term,
there's obviously way bigger upside.
So yeah, can you craft a portfolio around that?
And one other thing we haven't talked much about
that I do think long term will be a big winner, our NFTs.
I think for specifically with art,
and then I know we wanted to chat punks.
Like there's a history element that I think will age really well.
I don't know, Tyler, what you wanted to talk about specifically.
That was my saying.
I was like there's one asset that's about to flip Bitcoin or it's damn close.
Cryptopunks, 86,440.
So that punk Bitcoin spread, getting pretty close to even here.
It looks like we need two, two to three sales here for punks to reflip.
Bitcoin. If folks haven't been following, I think the ratio, Punks got about 1.4, 1.5 Bitcoin at peak
back in December. I want to say, I'll pull up the chart here in the second. I have since went
about 20% below now back to treading even. We saw big sweep yesterday. I think 10 to 12 lifted
off the floor. And it's...
It's thinning out.
A few things are happening.
We saw the sweep.
We've seen the above floor sales happen, which hadn't really been happening that much.
I feel like most of 2024, perhaps I wasn't following as close.
But we've got the hoodies going.
We've got 3Ds going for as high as 120.
That's 3X the floor.
That's one of the nicest 3Ds.
People love wild hair.
There's no, you know, negative attributes.
attached to it. It was nice to see that.
Compared to that crazy hair with a mole went for 80.
If that was a crazy hair without a mole, that probably would have went for 110, 120.
It's like the mole is literally devaluing the thing by $50,000 because there's one pixel that makes it worse.
I fucking love this.
Such a great.
Yeah, I love that.
If that didn't have a mole, that would be very close to the same price of the wild hair that just sold.
I love that albino crazy hair.
With the glasses.
This person's amassing a really nice collection.
Albino's only, right?
Yeah, it's really, really well curated.
They're cooking.
Wow, I love the smile too.
I love punk so much.
Nice stuff here.
Yeah, I mean, it should be said we're absolutely delusional biased to love this asset.
Almost everybody in here has been holding these for multiple years, in some case, five plus now.
And just take anything we say with a grain of salt.
But yeah, holy shit, what a weekend for them.
Big week.
I have the thing people desire to own.
Yeah. I have the Twitter bought on alerts and yesterday I thought my phone was bugged because I picked it up and I just saw like 10 alerts.
I was like, wait, what the fuck? Like fake bids and then I opened it. I'm like, oh no, this is just people buying them again.
That gold chain is up to me. That gold chain's been sticking out to me for like three months and it's been close to the floor.
Yeah. I wonder if I.
Back in the day we had the idea that Jay-Z was going to throw a party for gold chain holders.
And ever since the Diddy allegations, I think the party's been not as bullish of a catalyst.
The first one was a hoodie gold chain.
Wow.
Yeah, that was nice.
That one, I mean, the 3D is iconic, but fuck, there aren't that many gold chain hudies either.
Hoodie gold chain just shows one pixel, right?
One gold pixel.
Not shows all of them, doesn't?
This would be a bull case for Ethereum though, right?
This is the theorem is the perfect chain to hold these like super high end valuable assets like you're not worried about paying the gas fee to transact
Punks right and I imagine there'll be other big assets like if you're transacting to buy like a house or part of a house or part of
you know commercial real estate or another like real world high end value piece of art or
whatever like expensive
That makes sense to me that that would be settled on like Ethereum layer one.
What do you guys think about that as a bull case for Ethereum?
I think the higher the value and the more liquid the asset, the better it works on Ethereum.
Punk says collateral.
I don't know about that.
To me, Punk says collateral makes a ton of sense.
It's good for like Gandhi and Arcade and the other platforms for loans, but yeah.
well it's funny why should you borrow against like if punk's become a million dollar piece of art at a minimum which i think is certainly in the range of outcomes right like why wouldn't you be able to borrow against it given you can easily post it on chain like and i know you can now um and there's a variety of different things out there but like
To me, one of the really cool things about smart contracts and what we can do with Ethereum is the nature of defy and these over collateralized loans.
And you should be able to include assets.
A great scenario is, you know, like being able to borrow against, you know, your house in a more liquid manner, right?
Like going to the bank is a pain in the ass to refinance.
Like, yeah.
These are some of the things we were excited about three, four years ago.
And I think with some of the legislation and kind of the trend of where things are going,
these are going to become more real over the next couple of years.
I don't know.
That was that a common thing that was talked about at Das?
I know you've looked into this space quite a bit.
What's your perspective on how close we're getting to some of these things?
Unclear, I think, at least from the institutional side.
Institutions definitely want to get as much leverage as they can.
That's one thing I did learn.
As for getting these assets on chain and collateralizing them,
I think that's like the major breakthrough.
I was talking with someone about this this morning and I'm working on a piece right now around this.
I think that the current state of RWA's is akin to the early state of the internet where we just wanted to take books and put them online, meaning it was the same information, but it was just done in an easier fashion.
You didn't have to go to the library.
You didn't have to go other places.
It was just the information is there.
And I think the current state of RWA is looks exactly like that.
We are taking what we know in Web 2 and we're just putting it one for one on chain,
but we're not actually doing crypto-native things with it,
similar to how the real unlock with the internet was these internet native products.
And I think it was really the mobile that started to sprout up like Instagram,
but Facebook was before that.
And there was other products that were really designed and built natively for the internet.
And I think we're going to get there on the RWA side of the house, but it's going to take maybe another two to three years of innovation.
And with that, Jennings is going to come exactly what you're talking about.
Defy, collateral, lending, borrowing, all these different things on these different asset classes.
Now, you can argue that creates some level of systemic risk as well.
But, um,
If it's done in a healthy way, it can be really beneficial and have a lot of capital efficiency.
I think it's going to happen. The wildcard is, is it going to happen on public blockchains or private blockchains?
So today, I think we just saw the headline, the CME group is going to tokenize or put something on chain, but they're using Google.
And they're going to use a private blockchain.
So that's going to be another aspect of this.
But even with that USID, putting USAID on the blockchain, there's certain things you can do, right?
You could program a smart contract to only remit the payment if certain criteria are met.
And that's, you know, that's real utility in addition to transparency.
So there's a lot of things that make sense.
Having just gone through the home buying purchase, I still pray that we're finally
get to a point in the next three to five years where at least crypto assets will be counted.
I mean, I think Cyrus just tweeted he's going through a home buying process.
He has X millions of dollars in crypto and they just said no.
We're not going to look at that at all.
Like that has to change.
I think it'll change soon.
There are some lending solutions out there.
I think they're more bespoke and idiosyncratic.
There's not like a website where you can just go and do it.
But I got kind of lucky with...
The wealth advisor we have knows a president of one of the lending companies in Ohio.
And I was able to not have to cash out a ton of money to get our house and leave a lot of it in crypto.
So that was nice.
But like that feels more of like an exception and not a rule.
It's just there was a guy I'm friends with who is good friends with another guy and they were fine with me having a bunch of my net worth on chain.
What's funny about that though is if you go to these banks and you do like a portfolio loan, which a lot of people in crypto, that's how they would go about getting a loan.
They will value Ibit as part of like your portfolio loan in a much different way than if you just had native Bitcoin, which I agree.
Like that should absolutely change over time.
And Tyler, to your point of the private blockchains, I do think that that's another area that could grow like another super obvious one.
Like why aren't like all the votes for, you know, state, local, even national elections?
Like why isn't that something that's on the blockchain?
Like doesn't that make sense?
There's, there's a variety of, um, areas where private blockchains could add a lot of value to society.
I'm all for it. I do think it is coming. We are, Tyler, I could. Yeah, go ahead.
Oh, sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. Let's say, before we wrap up, there's one last thing I want to chat about.
Oh, I mean, we're definitely going to talk about FarkCoin. I know people have been staying with us for, for 68, 69 minutes so far.
So we're definitely going to talk about that. And then, yeah, uh,
Just rounding that out, I feel like we're kind of at this point in the adoption curve where we're about to flip to like where this is more accepted.
It really feels that way.
And I think the suits are driving it, right?
Like it's not the hoodies.
The hoodies got us here.
But now it's like my mortgage lender is going to pay attention because of what all these big players are doing and not from what people have been shouting from crypto Twitter from the last decade.
And that's just how it is.
But, James, if you want to jump in before we go down our far coin rabbit hole here,
how you're on mute?
This is one for D's.
Dude, I just saw that forgotten Roonverse is going to launch tomorrow at 10 a.m.
They also got, I don't know if you guys talked about this last week,
but I saw they got Xbox PlayStation and Switch approval,
which is, I think, massive for a crypto game.
I just want to see if you had any extra thoughts to use or just like anything to share on that one.
Yeah, I don't have any like inside info on that one.
I'm just excited to finally play it.
I've been playing a bunch of other games burning time here.
And none of them are Web 3 games.
Like I haven't really been super entranced by any Web 3 game I try.
So it is nice to...
Like full disclosure, I'm a invest I have like a big ass plot of land in this game and I also have
I don't know 12 wizards and 24 warriors or something so like I'm definitely biased but I did play the
alpha or the beta or whatever you want to call it last year and had a lot of fun so hopefully
even better
I got it's like level 16.
It's actually a really fun game.
I had a good time with it.
I'm down to party up with you to use when the time comes.
Yeah, it's another nice thing about it.
Like you can just play with your friends.
It's not one of the solo player grind games,
but you party up and go around and kill mobs and shit.
Gaming has to be an area.
I know it's so cliche and it's been said so many times.
But I mean, the value of these assets within games that are centralized to the developer is,
It just seems inevitable that that should be an area that crypto wins in.
But we just need a good game.
Like we've invested so much money into it and then relative terms have gotten so little.
I've been more surprised there hasn't been more like.
you know, indie games that use the chain.
Like we saw things like,
among us or Powell World come out and there was very little money with like a small
team to even make these games.
And they went massively viral with,
you know,
thousands and millions of players.
it's been a little surprising to me that we haven't seen any of something like that
in crypto.
But,
yeah,
I'm excited to play it.
So just like the one on switch.
Yeah.
You're playing it on Switch.
Yeah.
I think their approval on Switch, I think, is huge.
To your point, like all these indie games, I want to play it handheld.
Switch 2 is coming out this year, too.
I'm excited to get my hands on that.
I've been using my switch a little more over the last couple months.
And you don't realize how shitty the switch really is until you go from like a $6,000 gaming computer to a PS5 to a switch.
And you're like, holy switch.
Like the switch is worse than using my iPhone to play games.
You got to get the side.
You got to get the side grips.
Oh, no, I have.
Have them.
Yeah.
fucking oh yeah yeah there we go i'm playing uh Pokemon legal legends on this thing
fucking steaks peter be you're back on it's over this weekend i actually i tweeted out how
we hadn't really had an onboarding event uh since to be a top shot like that was the last
major onboarding event that the crypto web 3 had and then kind of pose the question what is the next one
what does that look like
honestly if i had to bet i mean a web three game as the next on boarder probably is the most
logical bet yeah that could have on board like tens of millions of people for sure i mean and it just
has to be a fun game like it doesn't need to be crypto centric first like it should be a fun game
first and then on top of that then you could have some interesting stuff with crypto where assets
over in the game are utilized but for whatever reason it just hasn't come to fruition and maybe
it's coming soon could put fun be that game
And I should say to like the gaming industry, think of how many games a year blow up and like hold relevance for a long amount of time.
It's very similar to like the crypto artist industry.
Like power laws absolutely rule gaming.
And there's like five to 10 games at any given moment that people actually care about and play over a long period of time.
So it's an extremely hard.
Um, vert, like, it's extremely hard to be relevant in gaming, just like, you know, a lot of other things in entertainment, whether it's music, um, movies or art.
And it's extremely hard to be relevant. It's extremely hard to be relevant in the, the meme coin game when there's thousands, thousands of tokens being dropped on a daily basis, but one.
Has made, has crossed the chasm.
And that one is Farkcoin.
Dees, we, to my despair, to my discredit, I was kind of backing away from the meme coin chatter over the last month, a couple of weeks back on the show.
Bottom side.
Dees tried to jump in and say, hey, the Fartcoin bottom.
Looks like it may have.
Yeah, it was right around 20 cents two weeks ago on that space.
And I just threw it in at the very end of the space.
I was like, hey, like, Farquoy Bottom has to be close here.
Nobody wants to talk about it.
It's starting to coil and not dump, you know, 10, 20% a day.
Might be good to look into it.
And yeah, it's been about the only meme I've actually felt confident enough to buy a little bit of.
I did buy a little bit of MLG back too because it was down to like $5 million.
And I'm just a gamer.
So like I got to have some MLG.
But a fart coin and MLG are the only meme dips I bought over the last month.
So I didn't sell yesterday.
Maybe I'll regret that.
But felt like a decent time to buy some.
And I never buy enough.
Like a big percent of my portfolio was never memes, but it didn't feel good to buy some.
Quite the run.
And it really was.
It was two weeks ago when we were doing the show is basically when it bottomed.
It did tap 200 million.
It hit 630 million yesterday.
So a quick 3X in about 12, 13 days or so.
I think a clear bottom sign over the last,
since I've been deeper in the trenches over the last couple of years,
when I'm at the point where I don't want to open my fan wall
because I'm scared to see what the number's going to say.
That's close.
That's how I was feeling two weeks ago.
I can tell you that.
I did not want to know what the balance was going to say.
The balance is higher today a couple weeks later.
Yeah, once you start feeling like apathy turned into like disgust or something,
that that's when it's time to just nibble.
Like you don't need to a full port, but you know,
why not throw another 10 grand or whatever in and just see.
Have you been dabble?
Have you,
are you off the sidelines?
Have you been dabbling anything new?
Now I've watched morning routine and please and,
uh you know other flip saratoga or whatever the fuck but like yeah i i would have bought this at 10
mill not sold it at 15 and now i would be down 50 percent like no one's gonna care about this
and about by the time we do next week's show what do you think the price or routine is going to be
you think it's going to be more or less than 5 mil like i would bet 10 percent of my portfolio
that it'll be less than 5 mil i i don't see how i don't see how with um
you know just the way these names go that this stays relevant but i don't know flavor of the day
yeah like i have that 10 percent of my meme portfolio this is not five mil next week but
park coin's different just because it's not as manufactured right like that i'm i'm kicking myself
because from a directional standpoint after all the libra stuff i'm like all right this is a time
to just rotate into you know the jlps bitcoin
Ethereum and Punks, I really consolidated in my portfolio.
And one thing that I've been watching and actually watched it at like 24 cents was
a heart coin and I didn't pull the trigger.
And that feels real bad.
Probably the most pain I've felt in this whole thing is just because this has been one of the bags I've loved forever.
And that's the hard part about crypto.
The FOMO will get you.
It will absolutely get you.
So it is definitely the top thing if we see some downside volatility that I'll be looking at.
Do you just target if it goes down?
I don't know if I necessarily have a target.
It's just in the event that we have some pain,
because I've been doing a lot of the stables farming and just different things,
getting more directionally bullish on Bitcoin.
We'll see what happens with the macro.
This is just something that I wanted to hold for a long time.
And I don't hate my process of just kind of like really simplifying things.
But, yeah.
It feels horrible not owning fire.
I don't care about any of the other stuff that I own.
I own a little bit of Moby, which I think is another interesting one out of the AI agents.
I know I've been kind of the one guy who likes that in this group,
but not having a sizable fart coin bag.
I mean, I think I have like a couple thousand bucks.
It feels real bad, especially given the fact that I put a lot of like Trump profits into
fart coin and other things.
Like at one point in time, I had a huge fart coin bag.
So that's something that I need to dig into.
Are your speculator spidey senses tingling right now on this one?
On fart coin?
Yeah.
I mean, I just, I've always loved it.
And I grew more and more bullish by the day.
I still am nervous about just kind of where the sole meme coin casino goes.
And if we get animal spirits back, it definitely could rip up.
But I still feel like a lot, like kind of the curtain was pulled back and people kind of saw
kind of what the meme coin casino was and maybe it evolves into a much better place i thought
the pump dot fun interview on bankless was really good with the lawn but uh farcoyne is different to me
in a lot of ways because it wasn't manufactured like you know the libras of the world the molanias of the
world etc part of the bull case
And Dip Wheeler, unofficial spokesman, got to give him credit.
He was bullposting the entire time through the full 90% drawdown.
The holder growth is off the charts.
And consistently, even through the downtrend, holders were up.
He made the post that basically the last time FarkCoin was at $500 million.
There was 35,000 holders.
And now there's $125,000.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Super strong.
Another important thing is to remember that there's no overhang on the supply from
Goat and Andy because they already sold at OTC.
That was another thing that gave me trepidation on the first run up with FarkC.
They were the biggest holder, one of the, I think they were the largest holder.
And they don't have any tokens left to sell.
And I'm assuming Wintermute doesn't have a giant directionally long Fartcoin position anymore.
and is hedged appropriately.
So that's,
does goat terminal still have this big position?
that's what I'm saying.
Goat and Andy,
they liquidated over $10 million worth of $1.
Oh, really?
Yeah, a while ago.
So that's another, you know.
Still on any central exchanges.
So there's a nice little bull case to be made.
Mando called it the leading indicator for the entire risk market.
the other day.
It does seem like the clear meme winner from the last cycle.
It's so funny.
It's such a great.
It's just,
it's such a good meme.
It's so fucking stupid.
It's great.
Yeah.
That's what a meme point's supposed to be.
It's not supposed to be, you know,
the porn.
It's not intellectual.
It's not.
It's just FARCorn.
I mean,
fart coin and punks.
We were saying this yesterday.
It's like the two leading indicators.
People want to get long.
All right. You guys are, I've been, I've been watching it so much and I'm just, just, I mean, you know, you know that one day there's going to be a day where you open this shit up.
And you're like, oh, fart coins down 30% like, no surprise here. And then that's when you buy it.
Of course. It'll look better at a dollar. Oh, it will look really good at a dollar.
Oh, man, a dollar. If you imagine being mainly sign line until a dollar, I'd feel terrible. I can't let that happen.
Yeah.
I said this in a good show.
Maybe a DCA strategy.
Month-long DCA strategy.
I do.
I didn't take profits the first leg up.
If it goes back to 250,
I feel like I won't want to take profits again
because my target will be higher.
Yeah.
I took profit at 60 cents on the first leg up because I was euphoric.
Same.
I was euphoric too.
But I got to buy it back closer to 30, so it felt fine.
But fuck, it was brutal watching it go from 60 to $2.2.
I sold a big amount of a dollar and then bought back in at like, I don't even remember some dollar.
I was like, oh, I'll take, I think Bob did the same thing.
I'll take some of these Trump profits and put it into the most...
you know, safe, safe meme bags.
I'll put it in the, I'll put it in like the pristine meme, fart coin.
Sorry, I'm on the park strategy website.
Oh, God.
Work strategy, they keep buying.
They honestly, they have like a couple of decent buys.
Kick out the price. It's actually on the up, it looks like.
Are you still older of that, Jeebs?
I'm not, but I'm thinking about it.
I'm not, but I could be again.
Yeah.
I'm not, but I'm not against it.
What, oh man.
Yeah, that looks like it's curling there for you to Jeeves.
Wow.
You got to get rid of that.
Get the other part out of view, Tyler.
Can you put that on log?
Right click the vertical axis and switch out the logarithmic for us so we can get a better
look at what's going on?
I'm trying to look right now to see...
Sorry.
All right.
There we go.
That looks better.
That's not, yeah.
Just go look at from like March only, right?
I mean.
Yeah, you zoom in.
Bottoms in on Fartre.
This might be a good time to run the disclosure from the beginning of the show.
that none of this is financial advice if you choose.
How is it underperforming fart coin?
Fartcoin's up like 3X off the bottom,
and Fartcoin beta is not even up three X.
That's not great.
Uncorrelated fart coin exposure.
That's not what you want to see.
Is goat 63 mil?
Am I seeing that right in your fucking thing?
I've looked at the goat chart in so long, man.
That's...
Yeah, the AI boards look a little rough.
A few of them moved.
That feels unintuitive.
Yeah, goats on the way.
My axes are all messed up.
If you double click it, does it work?
Oh, there we are.
So let's see how old goats do it.
Oh, boy.
A goat's sole chart.
Oh, my God.
Wow.
Bottom has to be in here, lads.
It's coiling.
It's coiling.
Why would it go back up?
Yeah.
Who is left to sell?
How about AIXBT?
Oh, man.
Let's look at the whole AI board.
Fark coins back up top.
This is to AI16 Z at $230 million.
Act is still number 4, 190.
FAI is 5.
AXBT is back at 100 million.
What's Moby at?
Oh, Moby's at 20.
So it's still 90% off all time high.
Let's see where that ranks.
Okay.
It's 26.
I'm surprised Moby's the 26th on my list.
There's 25 coins higher.
It's not intuitive to me.
Yeah.
You could argue Moby.
You probably should be what, top 15, top 10?
I don't know.
I don't own any Moby.
I was like the acid dash kind of just content broadly.
But I get it.
I get not one.
I mean,
Fartcoin, how do you own Moby and not own a big bag of Fartcoin?
I mean,
That's kind of what it comes down to, right?
It's opportunity cost of why would I buy...
You're still going to owning any of these relative fart coin.
Why would I buy anything that's tied to any real building or utility
when I can buy the number one mine share, zero execution risk leading meme?
Like, it's just really hard to sell yourself on that.
The thesis on fart coin has never eroded.
I think that's the beauty of it.
Oh, hot air is still right.
I own zero park point, but I'm getting pulled up right now.
Sad.
We're all getting...
this has to be local top maybe i should tell but i brought fart coin up on the end of this show
two weeks ago no one even wanted to talk about it we're like and that's our show and it's over
this week it's like we cut the show as soon as d's brought it up we got it in this now
yep it's over hope everyone has a good day see you next week it's
It's crazy what one week can do.
I know nothing on the show earlier.
Like, I'm the idiot.
And like the one guy who bought Fartrequin on the Dip is Dease.
I didn't go super high in.
I just put what I sold at 600 mil two months to go back in because I was going to be pissed if it went up.
I should have full boarded it.
Nice play.
But.
It's only a good play if I sell it.
And this is it.
I'm still holding it.
So it's not a nice plate until I sell it and realize a profit.
Yeah.
Man, so maybe the show title really went from over exposed, then it went to underexposed, then it went back to overexposed.
Now I might be back to under exposed season.
I am.
And like we went so far each way, like six times.
Our first ever conviction play on the show was Sparkcoin, right?
I remember it was like 20 mil on our first show and we spent a lot of time talking about it.
We have a few good ones.
We had a few bad ones with Doge.
Doge.
Doge is one of the worst.
Luckily,
I exited that one before it went down another 90%.
But,
the thesis was right.
You just sometimes,
the good thesis just doesn't work out.
That's the,
That's all the guy was wrong on that one, but we were all wrong.
Tyler, the summary of our show is where bullish Bitcoin, stable coins, punks, and Fartcoin.
Is that like the, is that the, again, not financial advice, but that's kind of the summary, right?
Yeah, that is the summary.
And I think that's a good summary.
That's basically sums up how I'm feeling about the market right now.
And I feel under exposed to all of those things.
That is a fact, which is a good way to close out today's show.
Folks, that's going to be it.
I want to thank our listeners.
I want to thank my co-host.
I want to thank our partner, Wallet Connect.
We will be back next Tuesday.
Until then, enjoy your day.
Enjoy your week.
We'll talk to you soon.
Goodbye.
