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Ungovernable Podcast – Ep. 22
Recorded: July 2, 2025 Duration: 1:03:09Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Music Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. so Join the ungovernables.
No filters, no apologies.
This season we're cracking open Uniswap governance.
Welcome to a new episode of the Ungovernable Podcast.
Welcome to a new episode of the Ungovernable Podcast.
Today, we're joined by BP, a core contributor of Gamma Strategies.
Gamma is a protocol for trading and active liquidity management and also is a delegate for uni swap and optimism i'm austin from alpha growth your
premier defy operations and growth firm bp welcome what else should the listeners know about you
listeners know about you. Thank you for having me. So yeah, I'm BP from Gamma Strategies. I'm
the founder. And yeah, we started Gamma Strategies about three years ago when Uniswap V3 went live.
And we are one of the largest market makers on Uniswap V3 and we've built a protocol on concentrated liquidity management. I'm currently
the lead dev, the Solidity Engineer at Gamma Strategies and yeah, happy to be here and talk
more about what we have in store and what we're building. Likewise, likewise. Before we get into
that, I'd love to learn a little bit more about you when when was the first time you heard you
know bitcoin or blockchain and what was your first interaction uh with with crypto itself
oh okay yeah so i first heard of crypto back you know i i don't think i was like super early to the
crypto game so i started hearing about it in 27 2018 when my sister got into it and she bought xrp and just
started showing off how it was mooning and how i need to get into it and at the beginning i just
thought it was sort of a sort of scammy i don't know i just didn't really get that much into it
um and pretty much so that's kind of how I first learned about it. And then in 2020 during COVID, uh, I was working in investment banking at the time and somebody
introduced me to DeFi and farming.
And that's what really got me hooked.
I started watching these videos on YouTube called by Finematics, where he just kind of
very clearly and, and explains how DeFi works, how yield farming
works.
And I got addicted then.
And I just pretty much was, I would do my investment banking job for like 100 hour weeks.
And then every time in between, I'd just look up DeFi stuff and I'd embark on different
farming. I started farming on this protocol called Alpha Homora way back in the day.
And that's initially how I got involved.
And ever since then, I did business development for a protocol called Visor Finance back in the day.
I was actually started off as a community manager.
And then I got more and more involved.
I did the business development and that company eventually transitioned to Gama Strategies.
And I learned more of the engineering side of things and how to code in solidity.
And that's pretty much how I am.
And here I am today and I'm now leading the project and building more uh building more code
on top of uniswap before so that's pretty much how i initially got started i love to hear the story
it's uh i have a similar backstory in terms of going from traditional finance into hot defy
summer as well as my yeah my brother also orange pilling me and it sounds like more it was more of
a blue pill for you yeah i'm kind of curious uh going from investment banking and learn it sounds
like you learned solidity did you have a background in a computer science or uh any sort of not really
yeah i mean i took you know i took ap comp side back in high
school that was pretty much it and i did horribly on the ap test there so pretty much zero background
in in computer science i majored in business economics in undergrad and then i did accounting
for for two three years and then i went back to school for law school and i was trying to be a lawyer and
i figured i didn't want to do that i wanted to go into finance and so then i became an investment
banker and really i think it was just throughout this process i was just figuring out what i didn't
want to do i knew i didn't want to do accounting i knew i didn't want to do law i knew i didn't want
to you know do traditional investment banking you, just sort of that please fix lifestyle, working on slides, working on Excel spreadsheets and stuff like that really wasn't for me. And,
you know, once I discovered, you know, crypto and DeFi, I was hooked. I think I just got
really red-pilled into it. I just couldn't, you know, turn away from it. I, you know,
watched every video that I could on it on youtube and
then and then that eventually led me into like crypto zombies where it's like a little crypto
game where you could start learning solidity and then i did boot camp on solidity and then really
i think what really changed like really turned me into an engineer was really chat gpt like
a lot of new engineers i think just getting over that syntax is the Like, for a lot of new engineers,
I think just getting over that syntax is the hardest part.
And a lot of people just kind of give up
because there's just so much syntax involved,
how to import things, how to write code,
how to do a for loop and all these other things.
But with ChatGPT, all that syntax
just sort of got abstracted away.
You could kind of with natural language
just say i want to do this uh please tell me how to do it and you know oftentimes it will be wrong
but you know i think that process of interacting with chat gpt okay uh this doesn't look right why
isn't it working uh can you explain this part to me more in depth can you give me a technical
under uh give me an outline technical explanation of how this works and then it'll do it very cleanly. So that's kind of how I
really learned how to code. And, you know, a lot of people, there's a lot of like,
you know, people saying, you know, vibe coding and there's a lot of people kind of talk, you know,
like in a derogatory way about vibe coders, but I think it's just a really good way to learn and and you know
it's not like you're asking chat gpt to write the entire code for you it's you're getting very good
base understanding especially if you're coming from a field where you didn't really know the
technical ins and outs like it can explain it for you much more in depth and you can keep asking as
many questions as you want and get the answers and i think that's a fantastic way to learn and
it's pretty much how i learned i appreciate the honesty too and and uh you know coming from a
data science background it's definitely made things a lot easier rather than uh going to
stack overflow and trying to solve the answer yourself you're spending hours and hours on one bug right right can't find the source of it so yeah
i imagine vibe coding is going to be especially with the advancement of ai is going to be more and
more uh powerful over the coming years right right i you know the funny thing is like you notice a
lot of i notice a lot of people that have been in coding for many, many years. A lot of them are a little bit defensive when I talk about ChatGPT or Cursor or Claude or whatever AI tools that I'm using.
But I think a lot of people just assume that once you use these tools, you're having to do everything for you.
But I think quite the opposite is true.
i think quite the opposite is true you've learned to do more things yourself but you just have this
extra tool at hand where you could just keep asking questions and you know just dive deeper
than you ever would have dealt dive before like you could okay go into the imports go into the
libraries and explain the libraries to me you know it's just you have all these tools at hand where
you could just get a really deep understanding of what you're building. So I find quite the opposite is true. Like some people say as Vibe coders, you don't truly
understand what you're building. But I think with all the AI tools, you could have a 10x better
understanding. It just depends on what you're prompting it, what you're having it do, and how
you're using it. Oh, for sure. If you were going to, you know, somebody relatively new to Solidity, what might be some resources or AI tools that you would point them towards to start, you know, messing around and playing around with Solidity?
You know, I always tell people, I think the best way to learn how to code is just to think of a simple project in mind first and something that you want to build.
Like, I want to just deploy a token contract, for example, that's like one of the easiest things to build and just try to build something from
scratch. It's very, very simple and have it more project based and just kind of start
broad, say, okay, just grab a sample token contract, make some modifications to it, install,
you know, use cursor or cloud or whatever AI tools that you have with you and just
say, here's a sample of what I want to build. I want to make this small adjustment to it.
Help me build it. Help me. I want to use, I think it's just more of the tools that you want to use
first, like, okay, how am I going to deploy? What do i need to deploy this contract either um hard hat or most
people use foundry these days okay so i want to deploy this contract using foundry help me develop
the solidity code and help me develop the script to deploy it on the blockchain and then just start
broadly like that and then it'll just give you some it's going to spit out some just you know some cookie cutter code and then you go deeper just
okay you did this at the top pragma solidity what does that do uh what does this version mean
what what are you importing here why why are you importing this why are you importing that
and then go into the imports and just kind of learn that and i think that's kind of how i learned just
from the top down and and just just literally asking every question that I had in the book and I think with a normal
tutor they would have gotten so frustrated with me by all the questions I've been asking but
luckily you know AI will just take all your stupid questions so I think that that's pretty much how I
learned and I think that's probably the best way to learn through a project and just ask as many questions as you want yep yep yeah and i think uh designing something and building your own project
rather than just following steps you're gonna learn a lot more along the way right right so i
want to want to now dive into the gamma a little bit and maybe we could take a step back and pretend I'm a listener who's never
provided liquidity or created an LP before. Could you explain Gamma in like 60 seconds?
Yeah. So, okay. Assuming you've never provided liquidity. So essentially,
decentralized exchanges, anybody can provide liquidity, and what is liquidity?
Liquidity are just tokens for trading. So if you're trading on Coinbase today and you want to buy ETH, right?
You spend USD and then you get ETH in return. Well, who's providing the ETH for you to buy?
It's usually some market maker out there that's providing the liquidity on the exchange for you to trade into. So you'll trade in your USD and you'll receive
your ETH. Now on a decentralized exchange, it kind of works the same way, except anybody can
be a liquidity provider. And traditionally what that's meant is that you'll have some random person or random people that are supplying ETH and USDC into a
liquidity pool. And you as a trader can trade for either ETH or USDC by, let's say, if you want to
buy ETH, you put USDC into the pool and you take ETH out of that pool. And so the liquidity provided
by providing that ETH and USDC allow that to happen. And so it started off very simple
in Uniswap v2 where you just provide ETH and USDC 50-50 ratio and then anybody can trade assets
within that pool. Now with Uniswap v3 they added a layer of complexity to it where you can not only
just supply ETH and USDC but you could supply it in any price range that you wanted. So
I want to supply ETH and USDC only when the price is trading between $2,000 and $3,000.
So if it goes below $2,000, I'm not providing. If it goes above $3,000, I'm not providing.
But if it's trading between $2,000 and $3,000, then I'm providing liquidity for people to trade and people can swap assets into your liquidity position
and out of it. So where Gamma came into play here is with that Uniswap V3 aspect, the fact
that you can provide liquidity in any price range. And that's what we developed our first product
out of where we said, okay, it looks like we need some expertise here on which are the optimal
ranges to provide liquidity. There's pros and cons providing a narrow price range versus a
wider price range. You could potentially lose a lot of money by going too narrow, or you could
potentially leave a lot of money on the table by going too wide. So we developed a protocol where we're optimally choosing which ranges to provide
in. And as anybody that provides funds with us as the LP will receive the fees that we earn
from providing that liquidity. So that's how Gamma was born. And that was like our very first
product that took off and did fairly well.
We partnered with other DEXA.
We partnered with Uniswap to incentivize our positions because what we did very well was
that we kept liquidity concentrated within specific price ranges.
So it's always active within the price range where a lot of people, when they're providing
liquidity to Uniswap V3, they'll provide it from, let's say the ETH is trading at 2,500, they'll place liquidity at 2,400 to 2,600,
but then the liquidity will quickly, the crypto markets are very volatile,
it'll go below 2,300 and they're no longer providing liquidity.
So it was not very good for Uniswap because if you're not providing in-range liquidity,
it's no longer generating volumes. And so we were sort of the service provider that provided liquidity on
behalf of the public to always keep that liquidity within range and sufficiently concentrated so that
the traders have a better experience. But that's in a nutshell. I probably went over 60 seconds, but it's kind of a complicated topic.
Yeah. No, I think maybe if I can put it simply too, is the initial reason was to help traders
have liquidity and those liquidity providers continue to stay in range. So that way they're
not losing money and they're also not
leaving fees on the table when traders are making those swaps. Correct. Correct. So how has, you know,
Gamma evolved? Because I think that was like the initial piece where you guys started,
but how has Gamma evolved over the previous years?
Yeah, so I think we've definitely got a lot smarter with providing liquidity.
You know, I think we made the same mistake
that a lot of people made in the very beginning
where we provide liquidity in extremely tight ranges.
And the downside of that is the tighter your ranges,
the more quickly you're selling off the better
performing asset for the underperforming one for example let's say if eath is absolutely mooning
right and as soon as eath gets to the top end of your range you've ran out of eath in your position
so you have only usdc in your position because everybody traded usdc into your position and took
eath out of your position so you lost that upward exposure to ETH. And that's the so-called impermanent loss that
many people in Uniswap or LPs on Uniswap have probably heard of, which is you lost exposure
to the better performing asset. So what we've developed over time is we've developed a back
testing framework where we say, okay, now we have plenty of historical data, historical swap data.
What if we experimented on changing, on how we change the ranges, whether we go wider in
terms of when there's a lot of volatile price action, we go narrower when there's less volatile
price action.
Price prediction mechanisms, like we take financial indicators to determine when volatility is likely to rise or when
it's likely to go down and we adjust our ranges accordingly.
So that's a big part of how we evolved over the years is just coming up with different
strategies tailored to different market dynamics so we don't lose too much money over time.
And so that's kind of how we evolved our market making product.
But we've also developed on Uniswap before, which is when Uniswap before first came out,
the main innovation behind it was that you can have any arbitrary logic before and after a pool event, like before or after a swap, before or after you provide liquidity, you could do any arbitrary logic on the blockchain. It's completely open-ended.
And what we developed from that was, okay, providing liquidity on Uniswap V3, oftentimes
if you're providing just a single asset, it acts as a limit order
because you could provide just single-sided ETH above the current price stick. And when ETH goes
through that price, it will convert to USDC. So let's say ETH is trading at 2,500 and you put
ETH liquidity at 2,600 to 2,700. When ETH goes all the way to 2700 is completely
converted to USDC. And so that was a project that we developed when we joined the Uniswap
V4 incubator course by Atrium Foundation. The Uniswap Foundation sponsors that course. And being liquidity
providers ourselves, we said, okay, this is Uniswap before something that we have to learn.
And one of the big use cases, I think everyone's talking about on-chain limit order books these
days. I think Hyperliquids have been in the news. A lot of people in lp space are you know wondering like how come no one's
built an on-chain limit order book on that's completely decentralized and you know uniswap
v3 had that potential but the only part that it was missing was that once it hits that price point
like that 2700 uh if the price were to pull back your us USTC would convert back into E. So we needed a
way for that, once it hits your price point, for that liquidity to be removed, so now your
liquidity position has been technically executed. And so we use V4 to add that mechanism in.
So once it hits the price point that you want, we burn your liquidity position. So we've transitioned.
We still have our market-making product.
And our plan is to combine the two products.
Because I think that's really going to tailor to both market makers and to retail users to have a platform where you could trade effectively in the liquidity position.
And also you could provide liquidity for your
limit order book and you'll have a great trading experience that way you'll have deep liquidity
books so i think these two products are very well um symbiotic in a way so yeah happy to take a
breath there yeah yeah no i i appreciate the the detailed description there. And I'm quite curious,
you definitely piqued the interest, how you guys and Envision really bring these two products
together. Because from the outside, they look almost completely different.
Right, right. Well, I think a good way to kind of envision is sort of traditionally,
when you see limit order books,
you know, you wonder who's providing the liquidity there.
Oftentimes, it's a market maker.
A market maker is providing both the sell side liquidity and the buy side liquidity for users to trade, right?
And so what we've, and that product is similar to what we, our very first product, a market-making product where you can manage liquidity.
The liquidity gets, you can manage liquidity for any liquidity pool and you can concentrate it at certain peaks, at certain price points, and you provide a good environment for people to trade.
Especially, mostly I'm talking about putting liquidity around the current price take. And once the liquidity is around the current price, you
have very low price impact, it makes it easier for people to trade. So that's, I think, our
first product. Our second product is more the market taker side, or if you want to buy
or if you want to set limit orders for retail and you need an interface for that,
that's really where the second product comes in,
where you have this limit order book that you could buy and sell into,
take market trades, but you could also, as an individual,
you could choose which price points that you want to sell your tokens at.
And in the back end, you have the market making strategies at work where
users, like if the price were to go all the way to, let's say, up 50%, which is not uncommon in
crypto markets, with the market maker vaults will do is that they'll move the liquidity over to that
new price point and continue to provide liquidity for people to trade in on top of the limit order book. And so the limit order book is really just an interface
and that mechanism for automatic execution, but together in tandem, they make for the best
trading experience. Gotcha. Okay. That's super interesting. So I got a couple questions. I wanted to, you know, first congratulate you
because I think you're one of the top volume for V4 hooks on daily.
Ask how the limit order book actually integrates V4
and maybe go into a little bit more of like a technical deep dive there,
just even keeping it at a high level, like why V4 why couldn't it be um another dex or even v3 yeah yeah so yeah that's
a good question so the reason why we did v4 is so you can automatically execute a limit order
after a price point has been reached. So V4 has these hook,
it's known for hooks, where a hook is just any logic before and after a pool event.
So let's say through an example, I want to sell ETH at $3,000. And so what you would do is you would provide liquidity, you would provide single side liquidity of ETH at 2700.
And so when the price reaches 2700, you have that logic that says, OK, burn this liquidity position.
And once it's fully converted to USDC, so that's the V4 part of it.
We use the after swap hook, The after swap hook will check, was this price point reached?
If yes, if the price point was reached, then burn the liquidity position.
And then the user now has USCC.
He completely sold his ETH for USCC.
The reason we couldn't do this on, let's say say V3 or another AMM is that once that 2700
price point was reached, the user would have to go into the interface and manually remove
the liquidity. So there's no automatic execution factor there. But V4 with hooks, we say, okay,
within the after swap hook, I want the after swap hook to burn this guy's liquidity position so that he'll have that USDC available for him. Otherwise, if the price were
to go to 2,700 and then pull back to the, let's say 2,500 again, his liquidity position would
actually convert back to E. It wouldn't have been executed at 2,700 point unless he actually
physically pulled out the liquidity. So that's what Uniswap before allowed us to do is to just provide that simple automated
feature which is exactly what a centralized exchange would do except they have all these
centralized entities that will and bots and keeper accounts that that will do that but this one uh our hook
is just deterministic once that price point is reached it's going to get executed every single
time so in essence it it is it is uh i feel like v4 just makes these things um like it's really a
v4 product where it takes advantage of that that um after swap logic and it's it's really a v4 product where it takes advantage of that that after swap logic and
it's it's perfect for launching limit order books oh yeah especially i feel like on the evm side
where we've really lacked like a solid you know limit order uh most time you're just doing spot
swaps like you could go over to sol Solana and use the limit orders there.
But in terms of like the EVM side,
like nothing that was executable in a way
that you felt comfortable using,
where your platform really opens up that opportunity.
Right, in a transparent and I'll say deterministic way,
because you could still technically place limit orders on,
let's say they have these things called requests for quotes. i think uniswap also has it on their front
end where you you prove you say i want to buy at a certain price but it's dependent on a market
maker that will supply your fill um and it's kind of more of an off-chain centralized mechanism
where they say okay we'll fulfill it now whereas this one is
just completely transparent a swap that comes in will fulfill that quote as long as it hits
the after swap quote price it's going to execute so um yeah in that in that respect it's unique
yeah well and i feel like the request for quote really doesn't differentiate very much compared
to like your centralized exchange and doing a limit order there.
Right. How would you guys feel for your limit order books and how would they differentiate compared to a centralized exchange? Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's
two big differences. The first is it's completely free. And when I say free, you still have to pay
the gas costs, but it's completely free to
place a limit order and to cancel limit order whereas if you place it on a centralized exchange
i think on even on hyperliquid for example you have to pay a 0.04 maker fee on coinbase or elsewhere
you pay 0.04 0.03 or 0.2 of your large well-making trades on gamma it's completely free um you just
say need to pay the gas prices
which on l2 like base or optimism it's going to be like fractions of a penny but the thing is you
could you can place a million dollar order and pay like 0.001 cent to place oh wow and it's also
free to cancel too and the next benefit is once you're once that position is about to get executed, users are swapping through that position and converting it to, let's say, if it's ETH, you're converting it to USDC.
You're also earning the swap fees that take place.
So you could be net, most cases, you're going to be net profitable in that you're earning spot fees.
You're not paying any of the trade fees that you would on a centralized exchange.
And it's completely free to make and cancel orders.
I think those are the two main benefits.
And it's also, you can't be paused either.
It's completely on the blockchain.
It's permissionless to use.
So you don't need a KYC to you know create an account or do anything it's uh just kind of connect the wallet and go similar
to you know if you were to use uniswap today and um yeah and once once your order is placed you
can cancel it anytime you want permissionless to make permissionless cancel um yeah all the benefits of
defy go along with it i mean that's that's incredible almost getting paid or potentially
getting paid to make trades uh which is quite different especially if you look at a lot of spot
trading for some of the more popular centralized exchanges where they're you know taking a a little
bit more than they probably should when it comes to right exactly yeah exactly
yeah so that's no i mean that's incredible to hear when it comes to utilizing v4 and being on chain
like how do you balance like the functionality piece and security piece with also the user
experience right a lot of these centralized exchanges, or even Hyperliquid, it's super, super seamless. And how do you guys balance
that from a Gamma perspective? From like a security perspective in terms of, I think with
Hyperliquid, a lot of it comes from leverage, right? So this is just spot trading for now. We're thinking of introducing leverage at a later point in time by integrating
Euler bolts. I think that's probably the question. Yeah.
That one is leverage management and how to do liquidations.
That's definitely a different ball game,
but this one is a little bit more simplistic where it's really just ensuring
that, you know, the smart contract is working the way that it should.
There's also gas cost considerations too, where when I mentioned how the positions are
automatically executed, it's really the swapper that's paying to execute those positions because
in the after swap function, the swapper pays for the gas to burn the liquidity position.
So it's making that process as gas efficient for the swapper as possible.
So if it's too gas heavy,
then what will happen is that the DEX aggregators and other routers will not
route as many volumes to you because it's too costly to trade through your
pools.
So what we did was we,
in terms of the smart contract side of things,
we made sure that that was as gas
efficient as possible. We use in terms of like the tick traversal logic, we're using tick bitmaps,
which is a little bit complicated, but essentially it's very efficient tick traversal logic,
very efficient gas burning logic, having as minimal state changes as possible when we're doing the
execution of it. And in terms of like the
smart contract security side of it, we got it audited twice. We had a grant from the Uniswap
Foundation and also a grant from the Optimism Foundation to get this audited by both Guardian
and Cantina. So in terms of security, it's really the smart contract security that we were the most
concerned with to make sure that these orders know, these orders are executed as, as the way that they should, they're as gas
efficient as possible. So that was really our focus there when it came to security.
And then from like a user experience, how do you make that true? Because it feels like there's a
lot in it, right? Like under the hood, there's a lot more going on than just a simple limit order um how do you make sure that you have like a pretty seamless user experience in terms of
that and abstract a lot of complexity yeah yeah so you know behind the scenes like what's going on
is the user is choosing like a certain tick and a tick is like 1.0001 to some exponent power and there's a lot of square root math
that's going on so we obviously abstract a lot of that away like when a user goes on to gamma today
that when they choose a price point that they want that you know it's like a normal price that
they'll see in usd terms you know it's not going to be in you know square root price terms and things like that. So we definitely abstracted all that
uni tick math logic away for users. So when they go on and they look at the gamma interface,
gamma limit order interface, it's exactly what they would be used to on a centralized exchange.
They'll see, okay, I can place an order at this price. I can put this amount and I can create a
limit order at this price.
And then once they create the order, it kind of gives them that familiar interface.
Okay, this is my price point.
This is the price point which will execute with the added benefit is like you'll be able,
there's a section for your fee revenues.
You know, instead of you paying the fees and say, okay, I paid X amount of fees to create
the order, you'll have a fee revenue section will show how much fees you've earned by placing this limit order so that's the one difference but yeah in terms of the user
experience they should have a pretty much uh seamless type of uh you know interaction with
as they would with on a centralized exchange or hyper liquid or elsewhere okay well yeah i
appreciate the the run through there.
You also mentioned the Uniswap Hoke Incubator Program.
I'd love to hear your experience and what that was like.
Yeah, the incubator program is, I think it's great.
I'm really glad that Uniswap Foundation is funding it
and giving all these educational resources.
It's really just kind of from beginning to end and through examples, just instructing
how the architecture works.
What are the main differences from UniV3?
Understanding the tick math.
So the tick math in Uniswap is probably the most unique part.
It's probably one of the most forked parts of their smart contract code.
This tick map is what supplies all the concentrated liquidity mechanisms.
And it's really the true engine and power behind the capital efficiency of Uniswap is the tick map.
So there's a complete lesson on how the tick map works.
And then after that, they go into different hook examples, how to use the after swap hook before swap hook when are these used uh you know there's some before ad liquidity
events after ad liquidity events the use cases for these things um the importance of gas efficiency
because once you're going into hooks a lot of times it's the swapper that will pay for the additional logic overhead that you're implementing in these hooks.
So being gas efficient becomes even more important.
So it goes, there's a lesson entirely on that.
And then at the end, you have your final project.
You kind of get together with your team.
You could do this individually or with the team and decide what project you guys want to build.
And then at the end, they have people from the Arbitrum Foundation and various other
products like Eigenlayer who are helping sponsor and funding grants for these projects to be
built using their infrastructure or their platforms.
And yeah, that's pretty much it. And they also do a great job at connecting you with, you know, if you need funding money,
they'll connect you with VCs.
If you need audit grants for, you know, to help, you know, flush out your idea more and
to get it audited, they'll provide that as well.
So it's really packed with resources, you know, in every particular way, mostly educational,
but also financial. And, and, you know, they have a great source of resources there too. And like
the DevRel team is, is there like providing assistance to coders and clearing up anything
that might be unclear with, with, you know, the using their libraries and their base contracts
and things like that. So it's really a phenomenal resource.
It sounds like it.
I mean, from technological resources to just even connections,
I think that's huge because I think a lot of people don't realize
that V4 hook projects do have a cold start problem, right?
You can't just hook on to an existing liquidity pool
and run with all that liquidity on Uniswap.
You got to start from ground zero
and still use that infrastructure.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, definitely.
Because each new hook pool is essentially a brand new pool
that technically segregates the liquidity.
And I think the way that the Uniswap Foundation is trying to get around that is
by helping build infrastructure for routers and routing volumes through
different hooks and hook discovery and things like that too.
So I can tell they're putting a lot of effort into there.
And, you know, when we first deployed these limit order hooks, I think a lot
of the infrastructure is there already where we are automatically connected with routers and routers just immediately started routing volumes through our hooks.
So in that respect, I think they did a really good job. I mean, of course, we could always have more routers and more volumes flowing through.
But I think, you know, even what they did until now is pretty great.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's a huge benefit to have that volume from,
from word go. Where do you feel like, cause you know,
V4 is still relatively new.
It's not even a year old or even barely very,
not even six months old.
What,
where do you feel like there needs to be more resources and more support
in terms of v4 projects so then that way they can you know hit the ground running as fast as
possible it sounds like there's a lot of great stuff already and um that's out there like the
atrium academy and you know the uniswap foundation or etta but where else do you feel like okay this was a little bit turbulent for us
um yeah i guess you know i think they're already doing a lot of great work already i think in
terms of you know i think i i think like stuff things that you're doing right now is getting
these hooks like exposure and getting
them additional, because I think they provide a lot of value, but a lot of people are just not
aware of what type of value that they're providing. So providing like sort of a marketing platform
for these hooks. But, you know, I think they're starting to do a really good job of that. I mean,
Euler Swap is using Euler Swapap v4 hooks and i think they're doing close
like 80 to 100 million volumes a day with with their product and integrating it with their
lending vaults um being able to leverage you know like i was playing around with the oiler swap
vaults and like with 36 dollars of liquidity you could have or 36 dollars of inputted capital you could have up to like 450
dollars of liquidity just using your lending vault so it's just um you know stuff like that is is
pretty phenomenal um so yeah i think i think they're on the right track obviously rome wasn't
built in a day so you're not going to have it just you know all of a sudden just get a lot of traction
but i think just continuing to
highlight the success that some of these early projects are having i think will help onboard a
lot more people um yeah but other than that i think they're they're doing a phenomenal job at
the moment um but yeah just more exposure there and i think more people will join for sure yeah
and i think the i think one thing that i'm super excited about is the cross-pollination that you mentioned, right?
Now, if you're going to do perpetuals, being able to leverage Euler,
being able to have that composability not just in DeFi but on top of Uniswap,
I think that's going to be super interesting on uh what's going to come
yeah definitely i think can make perpetual trading a lot more interesting too because
you'll have a lot more volumes i mean you'll have a lot more you have a different way that
you can leverage your positions and the main difference here is that you could earn the
swap fees so a lot of those swap fees could offset the cost
that you're paying for borrowing fees. If you want to go like, you know, a hundred X long or
something like that, typically it's quite expensive if you hold your position open for a while, but
if you're, you know, extremely concentrated and you're generating swap fees, a lot of that could
pay for the borrowing costs for, for the, you know borrowing costs for keeping your perpetual position open.
So I think there's a lot of potential there. It's a different infrastructure than what people are
used to. When I tell people that you could actually make money by placing limit orders,
they're like, well, how does that work? And so a lot of it is just educating people on how it works.
Yeah, I think we're getting there. I think we're
also starting our own grants program too. Well, we got a pretty fairly large grant from Arbitrum
back in the day to kind of just use in whichever way we want to promote our traction on Arbitrum.
And we're starting a program where any user who provides liquidity to our limit order book and earns fees, you'll get the same amount in fees in terms of our reward.
So it makes it even more profitable to trade on our platform.
So, yeah, we're trying to do as much as we can to just educate people on how this works and what the benefits are, because we think it's quite a big benefit over what they're used to.
Yeah, it sounds like, and be sure to check that out.
But it sounds like Univ4,
the underlying story is max capital efficiency,
whether it's rehypothecation, whether it's Euler swap,
whether it's limit order hooks,
making sure that the end user is that that money and not leaving money on
the table correct yeah yeah definitely i wanted to ask because i think you know when you go to
hook rank and you're checking out all these different hooks you see a lot of no op hooks
would you be able to explain what a no op hook is. You know, I'm probably not the best person because we don't have no-op hooks in our actual
platform, but essentially what a no-op hook means is quite simply is just not do an operation
when certain things happen.
For example, I was considering also using no-op hooks in our protocol as well, where
essentially, typically when you have a, when you have, when you do a trade
and like where I see no off hooks being used is when people have custom curves. Like what I
mentioned earlier about with Uniswap tick math, you could provide liquidity in different ticks
and you'll have like your own liquidity curve, but what you can do is not utilize that at all.
So what a lot of people will do is
use a no-op hook there where when a user places a trade don't route the liquidity through the
typical uniswap ticks but instead we have like a reservoir of assets route the assets through there
instead so a lot of times people use no-op hooks by saying don't use a traditional uniswap
infrastructure use
these assets instead and so that allows for a lot more customization i think oilerswap has like their
own custom curves where they probably use some sort of no-op hook not to go through the uniswap curves
i think bunny also has that too where bunny has uh don't use don't use this uh uniswap uh
Don't use this Uniswap tick math or don't use our curves at all, but go through our
own liquidity density function to provide liquidity.
So I think in short, a no-op hook is just a way of saying don't use the Uniswap traditional
infrastructure, use this customized infrastructure for more custom integrations, custom integrations, more gas efficiency,
or, or anything like that. It's really open-ended what it can do.
Gotcha. So it's just, okay, that makes sense why it's with the tick math. And I feel like
you're the first person that actually brought up tick math, which is I feel like super,
super important. So thank you for bringing that to my attention. Cause I think that's
going to be some late night reading for me to dig into a little bit more.
Oh, yeah.
It'll put you right to bed.
I mean, there's just a lot of it.
I think the way that ThinkMap works is like it's a way of representing prices from zero to infinity.
And if you were to do that, like just using regular math, you're going to run out of gas or you're going to run out of space because you can't really represent infinity with normal numbers.
But with tick math, it uses square root math and nonlinear math.
So you actually have a point where positive 887272 represents infinity.
positive eight eight seven two seven two represents infinity you know it's able to use
something like two to that uh two i to the eight hundred eighty seven power is effectively infinity
so it's a way of trying to represent infinity with just like a regular number and i think that was
the ingenious part of of tick math okay interesting all right i'm definitely gonna have to do a little bit of a deeper dive
i wanted to bb i want to touch on governance because i think it's super interesting that you
guys are one of the few v4 hooks that is like a delegate um and you swap governments governance
can you tell us what was the the rationale behind this decision? Do you think more V4 hook projects should have a voice in the DAO and start
delegating, being a delegate for the DAO? Yeah, I think the reason why we were selected as
delegates is we're liquidity providers on Uniswap. And our interests are, I think,
a lot of times in the delegate space in Uniswap, you don't really
have that much representation from the actual users of Uniswap.
Oftentimes you'll have maybe DCs or people that are invested, but the LPs are a big part
of Uniswap ecosystem.
They have a lot of capital invested.
Maybe they're not as invested in the equity,
but they're kind of invested in the liquidity that people use for trading. And so it was really to
give the liquidity providers a voice in the delegation process because the liquidity
providers, I would say, is the backbone or the lifeblood of Uniswap. Without the liquidity
providers, you wouldn't be able to have the capital efficiency, you wouldn't be able to have the volumes that Uniswap is known for. So I think a big reason
why we were delegates is to give the liquidity providers a voice in governance. And yeah,
I think that's really the main reason. And we voted on certain proposals. I think the latest one is incentivizing liquidity on V4,
paying for infrastructure on V4,
paying user or incentivizing users to build on V4,
build infrastructure around V4.
And being builders in the space,
you also have a in-depth knowledge
of what infrastructure we need.
So I think just being knowledgeable players in this space
and knowing what you need,
I think will make you a better delegate
at the end of the day,
because you'll know what will make Uniswap ultimately better.
Because the more liquidity providers you can onboard,
I think the better the product
that Uniswap will be ultimately.
Yeah, I totally agree.
It's the lifeblood, right?
Like it's kind of like the the users of a startup like
you it's great to have your investors it's great to have people that are buying your token but at
the end of the day you'll have those end users being that flow for the the protocol it makes it
hard to continue to stick around right right and you know we gave a lot of valuable feedback to
the uniswap foundation too just in terms of what would be, what would help improve.
Like we were also like, I think they onboarded, I forget that one company.
For whatever reason, it's a, it's a company that does a lot of stats on LP programs.
I think it starts with a G. It's on the tip of my tongue.
Gauntlet.
Gauntlet. Yeah, there you go.
So, you know, we work with Gauntlet on previous LP programs,
which pairs would be best for incentivization,
how to evaluate the success of these programs too.
You know, a lot of times what they were doing is looking at volumes market share,
but a lot of times what's really important is the fees market share,
how much fees the lps are making
because volume is sort of a metric where you can kind of uh it's kind of like profit where it's
it's very uh manipulable where if you lower the fee tier you can increase the volumes like crazy
but it's a harder thing to manipulate fees right fees is Fees is more like revenues, which is much more difficult to
manipulate than profit is profit. You could inflate, you know, lower the costs or like move costs
around and you could somehow manipulate the profit. But fees is like something that's true. It's,
it's all the revenue that's coming in. You could drop your feet here down to zero and get all the
volumes. But you know, is it really, you know, are your liquidity providers actually making money?
So providing input on programs like that, and I think we really push for having fee market shares
being a major stat within how they analyze which pools to incentivize.
So I think having these sort of insights makes us also a better delegate too.
So yeah, I think it's,
yeah, I forgot where I'm going with this.
No, I appreciate that.
Well, I think it's one of those things too,
like, right, you see TVL as often a vanity metric.
Right.
Or like you're saying,
volumes of vanity metric to easily influence.
There's definitely different levers
that you can make those things increase the,
make the number go up right right especially with dynamic fees now on uniswap v4 you can make the fees you know
five percent super high or you could drop them all the way down to zero too so there's a lot
more customizability but with that you know it's it's it's hard to get the true metric these days
yeah yeah and i think it's also serves the
best interest of the lps right like are you're looking at it as are they making money and if
they are great if they're not then okay that's kind of a problem we need to fix that
right right i would love to hear you know bb a little bit of what changes you would like to see for an lp perspective
and what you know what changes might need to be made or improvements or uh things that could be
done to to really improve lps and help them have more of a voice in uniswap dow oh and the uniswap
governance yeah hypothetically or yeah so on the governance side of things what
could be improved on the on the lp side of things um yeah that's a good question i think just
there's a lot of there's a lot more lps that are coming into this space i think us bunny and and
technically now now oiler is now a big big player in this space
a lot of builders are coming in i think just in general just having more builders get more
delegate delegation power i think would be would be great because you know i guess in one respect
you could say okay maybe they're just they might be more self-interested and things like that too. But in many other respects, a lot of times the interests are aligned.
They want to do something that will get them more exposure, get them more swap volumes.
And this is the same types of things that Uniswap wants as well.
When it comes to these incentive programs, a lot of the dialogue is about getting more volumes,
getting more hook volumes. So I
think, especially where the interests are aligned, I think it's important to perhaps give these LPs
a little bit more delegation power, give them more of a voice. Yeah, things like that. And maybe even
in terms of when coming up with proposals, working together with, you know, either the foundation or elsewhere to, you
know, see, okay, what do you guys need that will help get you guys more volumes?
Or should we, you know, invest more in infrastructure?
Should we invest more in users?
Should we invest more in marketing and things like that?
I think those are some things that I think a lot of the LPs, I think, will have a lot
of unique perspective and add a lot of value there yeah yeah and i guess outside of governance what would you want to see from
uniswap or even v4 projects that would make lp you know radically better for the liquidity providers
that's a good question i think from a smart contract perspective they what they made i
mean uniswap was really smart in that they made v4 like open-ended so that if you want to see
something an improvement to be made go build it yourself so they made it extremely open-ended so
i guess this question is not just for uniswap but but it's also for me and what can I build on top of Uniswap before that is something that I would want to see.
I think in terms of, and I think we're still discovering these new use cases right now.
So I think something that will help build, like what are the big use cases of DEXs today?
I think perpetuals are like huge, right?
Borrowing lending, some sort of a
borrowing lending integration with the DEX interface. And I think EulerSwap is a great
example of that. In terms of, yeah, in terms of what they can build from the Uniswap V4 core
perspective, yeah, maybe things with regards to gas efficiency i know adding liquidity burning
liquidity is very expensive and that's why a lot of people use custom curves because if you want
to add liquidity to a custom curve on uniswap v4 a lot of times you're going to have to mint
like a gajillion positions and then burn a gajillion positions so that's why a lot of times you're going to have to mint like a gajillion positions and then burn a gajillion
positions so that's why a lot of people use the no up hook so let's just bypass doing that it's
very very it's it's very good for our limit order hook because we're in a single tick we're just
working with single ticks we're adding a single tick and we're burning a single tick but let's
say if you wanted to add liquidity in a very elaborate curve, right?
You're going to have to add liquidity to all those ticks.
And then when you rebalance, burn liquidity from all those ticks, it's going to be extremely gas heavy to do so.
So, I mean, they kind of already have the infrastructure to do that by just using a no-op hook and then you create your own curve.
no up hook and then you create your own curve but maybe if there was something on the uniswap side
that allowed somebody to create a shape burn a shape just like this with a snap of your fingers
using one smart contract call like one modified liquidity call uh that's extremely gas efficient
i think that could be something that a lot of people would find find useful and it would it
would not prevent them from like having to you know do all the logic themselves
and like how to create a custom curve and things like that too so I think that's potentially one
improvement they could make. I think that's huge too as you were saying before right like as
as more and more projects are trying to be capitally efficient and move in whether it's
rehypothecation just-in-time liquidity to be able to do those
things you have to burn and mint those positions and if you're doing it at rapid speed you're
passing a lot of costs on to the possibly the end user right it's mostly the swapper that has to pay
for these things one of the liquidity providers so it's yeah, that's why gas efficiency is such a big thing.
And it's such a huge topic in the Uniswap hookup on too.
So, yeah.
Well, I appreciate that, BP.
I have one last question.
If you had one wish for the Uniswap ecosystem and let's say Gamma in the next 12 months,
what would it be? and what needs to be
there to make it happen one wish for the uniswap ecosystem and for gamma yep i say my my one wish
is for uniswap to flip all centralized exchange volumes from Binance to the Uniswap
ecosystem, you know, have the vast majority of crypto trading take place on Uniswap versus
any centralized exchange.
And we hope to expedite that and make that happen.
I love it.
Well, 2026, here we come.
Let's go.
Thank you, BP for for hopping on i want to know where can people
best follow your work uh on twitter or x yeah at gamma strategies is the best place to follow us
on twitter and from there you can get all our links to our discord if you have any you know
technical questions about our product um so yeah Twitter would probably be the best place. We have a great docs page as well, docs.gamma.xyz. Perfect. Thank you, BP. And that's a wrap of another episode of
the Ungovernable Podcast. Thank you all for joining us today. And thank you, BP, for walking
us through Gamma and sharing your perspective. For our listeners, don't forget to subscribe to
us on Spotify and YouTube. We're dropping new episodes each week.
Follow us on X at Grow Uniswap to stay updated.
This was the Ungovernable Podcast.
I'm Austin and see you next week.
Thanks for having me.
This was the Ungovernable Podcast by Alpha Growth.
