Hey everybody, we're gonna give it a few minutes to let some people palen and wait for the composable team to join.
We've got some of names shanks. My friend is cultured.
a fellow one piece fan, eh?
How's it going brain jar? Hello sir, it's going good. Can you hear me all right? Yep, very crystal. How's the last third space with that you guys hosted with all the people hopping in?
Yeah, it was fun. We're doing another one.
next week. So yeah, I mean, exciting times. Yep, yep, yep. I think we give it another minute. We'll just dive in and kind of just
do introductions on this side. And then kind of just talk about the composable journey just to get a little recap for everyone. And then we can dive into more specifics, give it another minute to 12 or 5 here.
I'm sunny sunny won't be joining the split of space. He's busy in person today, and he won't they're they're working on some important. For final finish lines here.
Alright, I think we can just start kicking things off. Anyways, brain drive, can you introduce yourself to our community here and potentially
After this Twitter space the readers as well and the recaps that'll be going out here Yeah, please introduce yourself, you know give a little T.O.D.R. on composable
Yeah, sure. So I'm the founder and CEO of Composable. We are the first team taking IBC outside of the Cosmos ecosystem. We have implemented a case
and Kusama to Polkadot, IBC connection and now are super excited to finally be launching our connection between Cosmos Chains and Polkadot Chains.
over IBC. Our overall mission is basically IBC everywhere. With the end goal that IBC can be a tool for giving users really sleek
and blockchain agnostic user experiences. So IBC is sort of like one piece of our overall goal here, but it has definitely been a journey to get to this point.
Thank you. Thank you. So how difficult was getting the ABC between KSM and that up and running? Yeah. So this was sort of like, like the first sort of mile, we chose to do that because first of all, there is no Kusama Polka bridge at the moment. And we also figured
The first implementation of IDC outside of cosmos in order for us to iron out all the sort of kinks required and like just understanding user flows and gas tokens and etc.
sense to start with the Kassana Polka-Daud Bridge. I think from in general like getting IBC outside of the Cosmos ecosystem required the hardest part was really just coordination, getting all the different teams to
be able to push the PRs that we want upstream, being able to do things like refactoring IBCRS, and then actually getting teams to collaborate on like, hey, let's set up dot pools on these different locations.
or like, dot as collateral for different products. So I would say like the biggest piece was we had to take something that was really specific to Cosmos Chains and really changed the mindset of like not only the IBC team but also like many others
sort of developer groups within the Cosmos ecosystem, like informal, etc., and collaborate on upstreaming these changes so that IBC could be agnostic to the framework with which the chain is built.
Gotcha. Thank you. I had a question about, you know, the KSN to dot IBC. Why when these these chains were kind of spun up in the beginning, were they not just, you know, built to have this standard connection given that they kind of meant to be this test net versus versus live main net.
that relationship. I did partake in a lot of the parachains a long time ago and I think a lot of my auctions are still being held up for the two-year duration. I'm just curious why that wasn't something that was built out in the very beginning from their launch. Maybe it's just like too difficult to lift.
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I don't really know. I think the parody focused on getting two stable networks up and running, getting pair chains to get built, building the substrate framework for building the actual chains, building XEMs,
which is like the IBC semi-equivalent on Polkadot. So I think there was a lot of things that parity was concerned with in building the Polkadot network. And this was sort of like a bit of an afterthought.
I think there's really no other answer to that other than I think it was just not that important to people in the ecosystem for quite some time. I mean, people have asked for it, but it's just like because Polkadot has this centrally governed
situation, you sort of need parity to prioritize things in order for things to actually get shipped, right? And so for us, we saw really great opportunity to just be like, okay, well if you guys don't want to do it, then we're going to do it ourselves. And I feel like that's sort of been the story
quite a bit within the Polkadot community. What about the interoperability between Paragens? How does that work? Is that different from obviously? Are they even connected? Yes, it is different than IBC. So basically, XCM is the framework used within Polkadot.
So pair of chains basically because there's this nested. So within ICS land you have the cosmos hub and then you have chains connected to the cosmos hub getting security. In relay chain land it's a bit
Sort of more because interoperability is also anchored to the relay chain as well So for you to be able to pass tokens and messages from one chain to the next you require XEM To interface with this relay chain that's sort of like
saying, every time you want to do an IBC transaction, you have to peg it to passing through the Cosmos hub. Which I think actually that was the original goal of the Cosmos hub, but I think people realize pretty quickly, let's not create bottlenecks for interoperability.
And so I think overall like the major difference and why we decided to implement IBC as the framework for which other chains could communicate outside of polka dot is because you know XEM you just physically cannot pass the dots on my ecosystem.
Gotcha awesome over on the poke out side and the Kusama side are there any other entities that are kind of working on what you're working on or you the primary team that is making this effort happen
Yeah, so I guess like just yeah, so we are the only team working on Cosmos to poke it on connectivity. We're also the only team that's doing IBC outside of Cosmos and putting it in production. There's plenty of there's like
a bunch of teams doing IBC to Ethereum. But yeah, we sort of started with this implementation because not only is it interesting to finally connect these ecosystems, but I think also sociologically
these two ecosystems share a lot in common and yet have been very sort of divisive between each other. So I think this was like a really, this allowed us for like the past two years to really understand what changes
needed to be made to IBC itself so that it could expand past the Cosmos ecosystem. And now with this foundation, we're also doing things like IBC to near, we've received a grant for that. We've been working on the IBC to Ethereum and like
pretty much trying to do IBC everywhere based on this foundation. What do you project to be the timelines for these other connections that you mentioned? Yeah, I mean, so it depends, right? I think in general, we're hoping
to like the next core deployment after this IVC connectivity is Ethereum and then looking at near after that. But yeah, I think like in general, I don't really want to
You make the timelines here, but that's kind of our prioritization here. Like I will say that 2023 is the year where IVC expands past cosmos and like we're hoping to do that to be the driving force for that concept.
Gotcha, gotcha. So how long did the polka dot to Cosmos take to build out?
Yeah, so I think like we spent about one and a half years on the entire thing and so the first six months was like how do we adapt IBC to other ecosystems? So we had to collaborate with informal with
Yeah, IBC team and like a whole bunch of other people strange love To get these changes done right and then we had to build a light client in collaboration with strange love called the wasm client So that we could understand
So that cosmos chains could understand, you know, poke it out pair chains. And then we had to build a brand new relay or relayers in production called hyperspace. Currently the cosmos relayers, Hermes and the go relayer only support
relaying packets between Cosmos chains. And this is a coordination with Strangelove largely. Um, hyperspace was something we built ourselves internally. Wasm clients we developed in collaboration with Strangelove, yes, stuff that
I would say Jack had a huge impact on us getting this stuff across the line like a thousand percent especially in the early days when we were trying to circulate this concept to like a whole bunch of different parties
we were getting shut down left and right and I think if it wasn't for Jack we probably wouldn't be here. Awesome yeah that is the consensus around the ecosystem that he has done a lot of stuff just for the good of the ecosystem. That's right definitely.
Awesome. Let me ask you about the historically existing bridge between Axel and Moonbeam. What are your thoughts on that and how do you guys differ whether it's in terms of performance or security?
can just rug at any point right I mean I'm just being honest here like the the whole point of doing IBC everywhere is that so it's is is basically so that axel art doesn't need to exist anymore and like
not just to Axelar, but also trusted bridges like, you know, Layer 0 for instance or wormhole like these things that have that relies so heavily on centralized counterparties.
They are just not scalable. If Axelar as a company goes to zero, the bridge shuts down. That's not how decentralized systems get built.
So first and foremost, it's definitely a security thing, right? Like, but it's also a massive improvement on user experience. So to currently get dot from moonbeam over to osmosis, you have to do an XCM transfer first from Pokemon.
to Moonbeam and then you basically have to bridge using Axelar. So what you're receiving is like twice, twice or three times wrapped dot which then gets liquidity provided onto Osmosis. In our case,
You simply do, you know, dot directly, you know, through our parachain directly over to osmosis. Right? So there is no like 2x fridge risk associated with this.
What are your thoughts on the axel or you know eventual change in their system and making it not in that capacity that you would be concerned about?
I mean, I don't really follow what they do super closely.
But yeah, I mean, I think overall, what XLR has accomplished so far has been great for the ecosystem, right? Like getting a ton of liquidity over to osmosis from Ethereum. That's been fantastic, right? And it really is
the only solution out there for that use case. So I think do they have an edge on sticky liquidity at the moment because they're already in production and people use it? Yes, definitely.
And so if they further decentralized their systems in the future, like that's always welcome, I think, you know, the community would really like that. And that's probably super bullish for people to sleep easier at night.
So yeah, I think I think overall it's like a step in the right direction, but you know, for most people, I think the normal be if it's not IBC, you know,
I don't want to use it. Right. Yeah. I mean, it also is just a lot faster and you know, it kind of just avoids a lot of nonsense. So given that Axelar, wormhole, layer zero, they have, they all have a pretty clear business case.
right? What is composibles business case? I think the business case for composibles is much more than just IBC termination right like moving assets from one chain to the next.
That's cool generalized message passing for specific things is all you know for specific use cases like like what stride is doing is also cool But I think overall right like
The business case for Composable is ultimately serving the user. We want the world to be as simple as possible for someone to do what they want and have it get executed in the cheapest way possible.
So I think like, you know, our business models are basically somewhat similar in the early days, but as more of the stack gets built out for composable, ultimately we want to be, you know, user-facing.
So give it kind of what you're talking about here with you know you have a clear vision and you have a clear stance on what you think that users will clearly value and prioritize in the future. What has been the feedback you've gotten when when
and pushing for this, let's say, whether it's just getting teams to support the efforts, funding for these efforts, communities that, whether they're willing to use IBC if it gets implemented.
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it's a really, really easy sell for people within the Cosmos ecosystem, right? It's like IBC, Kepler integration, you know, like this is just another network for most people. And I think that
becomes clear when we actually launch. So for Cosmos folks and for Cosmos projects that want to get more liquidity, wants to deploy in different places, Osmos is like pioneering outposts. We have a VM on our chain.
And that's also a location where an outpost could be deployed. So it makes a lot of sense, I think, for Cosmos teams that want to branch out and grab new liquidity sources. But when you look at the Polkadot ecosystem, it's a bit more difficult because
because all they're really ever used to is just like dot assets and like token. And pretty siloed and geek assist them over there. And it seems like back in the beginning, you know, everyone thought this ecosystem would just be booming. But from the comments
I've had with a lot of these parachained projects, they've started to ship their narrative to be more about interoperability and expanding and growing not just within their ecosystem, but to be, you know, communicating and growing with other ecosystems as well. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think Pokemon
The dot has lagged in that. Like, Hokodot has been heavily focused on dot and like use cases for the dot token. The crowd loan is like the perfect example of like use cases of the dot token.
I think like longer term, Polkadot basically needs to, I think where Polkadot is heading is they want to focus on secure block space, right? There's like this concept of payas you go, uh, pair chains, which basically means they lease, um,
additional block space from the relay chain in the events that the pair chain requires is block space for execution. So I think that there's like, there's going to be a focus on like highly secure applications, enterprise level applications that require a lot of security
from the relay chain, like, pokeouts a bit of a no-brainer. But if you're looking to do things that are truly interchained, like, I just don't think the pokeout community has matured to the level to appreciate what interchained actually means.
Right. Yeah, I got you there. So given that you kind of coordinate with the Polka ecosystem right now, what about a lot of the parachains? Do you guys communicate? Does your team communicate with them? Do you guys have ideas with whether it's like a D5 base staff or these, you know, moonbeam, like an EVM or
or Akala are they participating in these conversations or the mainly with just the main teams that are wanting to bring liquidity over? Yeah, so our BD team has a lot of work on their hands. Last year and a half they've been speaking to both Cosmos
teams and Polkadot teams, we've sort of now become stewards, like introducing Cosmos teams to Polkadot teams that they can collaborate together. So like, yeah, there's, you know, there's lots of use cases like, for instance, there's a decentralized
BTC that interlay, you know, has produced calls IBTC like in the Polkadot ecosystem. Yes, yeah, that's in the Polkadot ecosystem. Yeah. That is like something that could be used within the Cosmos ecosystem.
system right like just beyond the three rules. How's the attraction of that decentralized Bitcoin over there right now? It's it's not much right like I don't actually know I haven't checked the numbers but like you know daily active users across the board and poke it out are just much lower than in cost notes.
But, right. But like, I think most people now are viewing this connection as like the turning point where maybe because there's fundamentally great tech in Polkadot and great teams building. I think they just haven't had a chance to actually like show it. I think this is like the
the sort of time that people are hoping sort of things for poker on. Yeah, definitely. And we can also, you know, communicate with these teams and kind of bring through my ideas for sure. Absolutely.
What do you think would be top three most powerful connections to be made outside of obviously just connecting IBC? Where do you think the opposite of
I mean, I would say okay, so there's like
most exciting use cases for me within Cosmos for dot assets and then there's also most exciting applications in Polka for Cosmos assets. The former, I would say, you know, dot as collateral for IST is really interesting setting up
liquidity pools and all these different places that have perps like dy/dx and say like this this would be very interesting to to bring dot over as a collateral type and also you know umi like actually
being able to take out alone against her dog is not something that's like super popularized at the moment. So that's what I would say sort of on the Cosmos side. On the Polkadot side I would say getting Adam over to me
most of was the largest Dex for dot at the time? Yeah, I think that's probably still true and I think with this connection that's going to be pretty much the case. So yeah.
So with composables tech, kind of touching on performance and speed, our cross-chain swaps feasible and let's say having outposts on anything that is connected via composable, via IBC. So can we have an outpost on Moonbeams?
you know, decks with your technology here. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So basically within Cosmos land, you have IBC hooks for Cosm awesome contracts. You also have
Packing forward middleware with the memo and these two things help facilitate cross-chain swaps, you know, a la squid for instance Within dot-sama the only difficult point right is like you can perform cross-chain
swaps between our pair of chain and a cosmos chain. That's no problem because it's all IBC. When you start to do cross-chain swaps in some place where we then have to also call XEM, things become slightly more difficult. But we do have, you know,
hooks between XEM and IBC on our chain. So if you wanted to basically do a cross-chain swap on Moonbeam and then bridge all the way back to us. Most of us, that's doable, but you'd have to wait for the time required
for XEM to actually pass that message Right and how much time is there do you know yet? Yeah, I mean I think it's like a couple of seconds. It's definitely not a long time, but sometimes XEM is funny where sometimes
sometimes it just sits there for a while. It could take some time. So yeah, but I think overall we know why that happens. Yeah, because you need to get finalization on the relay chain, right? So there's a couple
So if you want to perform a X-TM transfer, you have to have basically six seconds. So every parachain is roughly 12 seconds for time-to-finality, but then you also have relay chain finality. And that just adds more time.
So I'd say like an X-DM transfers probably you know ranges around somewhere between 30 seconds Probably C-Saints listening here could probably quote you some figures, but yeah, that's kind of roughly what we've been seeing at least
Okay, gotcha. Thank you. So let's talk about composable and osmosis. What are you able to touch on? You know what the plan is moving forward here in timeline?
and anything exciting. Yeah, so timeline is like we're interested in launching like very soon.
know, we're in like the sort of final stages here. So we are what's definitely going to happen is on launch day, you'll see a bunch of new pools set up on frontier. We're going to submit governance proposals for incentive matching our token that the cost
token and osmos, so we're going to load up gauges with Pika, our actual protocol token, and hopefully be able to get that passed through osmos' governance to get osmos incentives as well. And then at some points,
Whenever concentrated liquidity is set up, we'd like to also throw up a proposal to migrate the existing axle.pool over to this canonical.ibc. Basically.
And then I think from there, whatever the community wants to see, they can just use the bridge and set it up. For instance, a star on the parachain side is interested in having their token listed on most of the same with Moonbeam as well. And so, yeah, they're just going to be
like a whole bunch of new pools that pop up I think and we're going to be supporting these teams to to set up these pools. Gotcha. Gotcha. So you mentioned Peca earlier. Can you touch on Peca and kind of explain it to the listeners here? Yeah. So Peca is the token
for our chain. It's powering all of this stuff that we're describing here. It's currently available on Kusama, so it's like our Kusama network token, but obviously with IBC it'll be available on
on a smosis and can travel pretty much anywhere within the Cosmos ecosystem. Its utility is going to be powering the chain, so that's like staking rewards, etc. and the future.
If governance allows, like we're hoping to pass things accrued to the treasury in two pica itself as well. And what I mean by that is, like, we have a deck on our chain as well. We have the Pablo deck.
for more sort of dot native assets, we're hoping to do something in the future where we can like pass a portion of that swap revenue to Pika Stakers as well. But that obviously is going to prove by governance. So yeah, that's kind of the long intro.
with your side's governance is your community pretty engaged already where where can our listeners tune into your community engage and kind of just just chat. Yeah, so we have our discord and our time.
and the telegram channels. Most of everything is done as far as community calls and conversations. They happen in our Discord. We hold community calls once a month at the end of each month. So yeah, come join the conversation.
And you mentioned the bridge or the working people. Is this something that people can check out now, whether it's like testnet or just something that's not actually live? The UX is like, yes, absolutely. So we're actually, we're currently doing an upgrade to the, to the relay.
So this is this is down right now, but it'll be back up in a couple hours app.trustlist.zone is Where people will be able to bridge to cause most chains directly and vice versa from cause most to polka dot so that's like
That user experience is going to be the UX for just general sort of everything IBC and also everything XCM. So yeah, that's the dot KSM bridge is already live there.
liquidity pools on our decks. You know, dot KSM liquidity pools. There's already some TVL in there. There's emissions at the moment as well for staking. So yeah, feel free to check out app.trusts.zone.
When will that be back up? You said it's down right now. Yeah, it's probably just a couple more hours. We're just doing an upgrade of the relay or to make it more gas efficient. Gotcha. Awesome. What about the name Santari? Where did you guys, where did this kind of come from? Yeah.
I mean, so like we kept saying IBC, we kept saying this word like cross ecosystem IBC and it was like kind of a mouthful and so we just decided okay, let's just give it a name and you know everything in Cosmon
is like, you know, there's like cosmos and a few other names that are like, I don't know, university oriented, like space oriented. So Centauria is this sort of constellation of stars was something
we caught our eye, particularly Slenderman, our head of design. And yeah, we just decided to roll with it because when you do look at map of zones at the moment, every chain there feels like a star kind of. I don't know if that was like intended.
Yeah, it is Cosmos theme. You guys are in line for sure. Yes. Okay, awesome. I think we've gone over, you know, quite a bit. You know, maybe we can open up the floor to any questions if we have any questions.
And if we do not have any questions,
then we can call it here. Can you remind the community again where to check out and engage with your forums and discussions and chats? - Yeah, so our discord.
It's available on our Twitter bio. Just feel free to click the link, join, introduce yourself. Yeah, it's a pretty dynamic community. All things IBC, X, DM, feel free to ask
Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking about everything you went over and we're really excited. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. Really appreciate it.
All right, all right. We'll call it here. Thank you, everyone.