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🎙Uptober DeFi Space: Narrative Narrative Narrative!
Recorded: Oct. 27, 2023 Duration: 1:12:39Space Recording
Full Transcription
all the speakers are here so uh let me just kick up the space um so you're not so consistent host
today will be me kudam i do various things at near week from content to development near week
is the official near protocol newsletter we have a weekly newsletter that goes out every monday
which you can also claim to cover as an nft for each week um our space today is a special one with
uh special guests uh we're supposed to have rest vision from proximity also and mental but uh
mental unfortunately they can join and press also have something uh to work on so he can join also
so what's still good we still have a really solid uh lineup today which is squeakswap
hi speak and then vex um maybe you guys can take turn to introduce yourself and the projects you are
representing
let's start from didier yes thanks kudan uh well my yeah my name is didier i'm the co-founder and
ceo of pike speak which is a data and analytics solution uh built on near protocol and prior to
that i was uh the pm of ref finance uh for almost two years and uh yeah employee number three of uh
the first decks on near and uh yeah very excited to be in this space and to talk about d5
awesome uh maybe james can you go next hi i'm james davis i'm the chief product officer at vx it's a
decks that's uh live and operating very nicely on near it's uh one of the largest uh non-foundation
led or sort of involved by the foundation uh projects at the moment and steadily growing
doing good turnover in volume and transactions i think it was another 400 000 yesterday so just a nice
steady growth decks that's uh continuing to be supported pushing new features and so on
awesome darian can you introduce uh your stockman christwell yeah hey i'm darian um i'm on the
biz dev team uh um quick swap um what i'm a contributor there to the dow um yeah basically
uh quick swap is is the sort of biggest decks on the polygon chain um also i think we're the biggest
decks on zkvm um yeah basically aside from being a dex we have like a perfect exchange and basically just
the whole sort of quick swap thing is uh we we can't just be a dex that that'd be too easy so we
we try sort of um build across the whole ecosystem um so so yeah that's us
yeah awesome so actually we have like a full lineup of of people who build texas that can be a they
they can be a better lineup for a d5 space so uh yeah to warming up the space uh let's start with
a tweet from uh near protocol co-founder which ilia so i just share in the space uh so ilia
basically to the poll about uh what basically what is more important narrative or substances
uh i'm actually curious to hear um opinion of people here which is more important when it come to
defy narrative or substances anyone feel free to go first i'm i'll happily go first i so
years ago uh i used to work uh with all of the guys who founded air miles and air miles was a really
solid business took over a huge amount of space and made an absolute ton of money and we used to focus
on the product all the time but as they repeated to us perception is everything so i think it's
really important that we have good substance but without a clear perception and a good view as to
what's going on which is part of the narrative it doesn't work so you cannot get away with choosing
between these two you've got to do both yep i i tend to agree with gems um although i would say that
in defy substance matters a lot because at the end you know you deal with uh markets so let's say you are
dex well if you have a very strong narrative but you have you know shit prices then no one will use
your platform so i think substance first when it comes to defy uh because people are interested in
you know what's the value compared to you know all the prices for example within the markets so i think
within the defy space uh substance is really emphasized but narrative matters a lot uh because
if you are a new project um and if you have you know a strong product then people will start using
your products not because of the product but because of the story behind the team for example
people buy from people right and and product comes second um and and that's would be my humble experience
from you know um my entrepreneur journey uh but i yeah i i would say uh substance first
yeah this was actually a tough one for me um because personally obviously it's substance first but i think
for especially a lot of people in defy is absolutely just 100 percent narrative um like i've seen
personally like hundreds of projects um like that they were building cool stuff that were they were
doing well and like uh actually building stuff that people would use that didn't have maybe the
narrative or the marketing behind that and then they've ended up failing or they've just basically
just shut up shop during the bear market because uh they ran out of funding or they just basically
didn't pick up an abstraction for for the um the protocol to to sort of succeed so definitely i think
narrative is is obviously huge within defy especially given the sort of like the generally
sort of gambling nature of most of the people in defy that they um they they do tend to just uh
i mean you obviously get the sort of uh the people that stay within their um their tribes in defy
you get people that will stick to like the polygon chain or the near chain or uh you do get that
but there are a lot of um people that basically just chase hype um and yeah the narrative is definitely
needs to be strong for a lot of projects for that exact reason
if i could come back in i think just occurred to me afterwards that
what does narrative even mean it's uh it's a strategy that's communicated well so
we would expect them to have a strategy and we'd expect them to be good at communication
so it's a substance but with a plan and then communicate it well uh and for small projects
yeah like as the guys have said you can lean on one or other in different spaces
but for a large entity that's affecting everyone you've got to do both
yeah uh generally i agree with all of your opinions right because i think it best that we
find like a fine balance between narrative and substance but uh i guess apply to defy uh which is
uh like a category that based on but mostly based on speculations i think narrative might be more
important than substance um but but that doesn't mean that substance is not important because
even if you have the narrative and your product doesn't cut up with the expectations of
of a community for example then you're also going to be failed really fast so
yeah i think the answer is to find a fine balance between uh substance and narrative i mean
a lot of protocols actually launch before they have the substance in crypto like a lot of them like
maybe they're building a game or they're doing something like that um a lot of the time they've
already got a token out they're selling nfts but before they actually have a live functioning product
so so narrative definitely is important there
yeah yeah yeah that's definitely all right we see have we will see many projects without a a working
product but already have like uh a few dozen millions of market cap tokens so
so um that's that's it for yeah for the grooming up uh let's get into the actual uh things we want to say
today um so the next topic i want to discuss is around uh defy ux um so you see numerous
of projects in web3 space are now tackling the ux challenge right and then people often citing
ux is the prime primary barrier to for you know web3 to achieve mass adoptions um do you also
agree that this is the main obstacle for defy mass adoptions
i would i would tend to i would tend to disagree um i think ux is very important but we we have two
types of ux rights we have basically in my opinion right we have first design and ux like how can it
improve the the you know the the time to market for the users so let's take an example um on near if you
want to trade uh two years ago a user would have needed to you know swap wrap near to near to wrap near
um and and that was kind of an obstacle or that was another step before getting any exposure so
something painful and today you have this uh you know wrap near near whatever uh abstracted in the
user experience so you've basically reduced the time to market for the users and i think that's an
an example of you know great uh ux um and and and when we talk about ux today which is you know
more about potentially i think design and how how do you how are you going to build uh i don't know
like a swap uh interface for example i i think it's it's not what matters today um what really matters
is yeah what what the functionalities uh and especially in defy we we have so many examples
like curve finances is obviously uh the the one that comes into my mind right curve has been one of the
shittiest you know uh user uh interfaces within the world space but that didn't prevent them from
getting billions in in in tvl and volume uh because once again once again in d5 what matters is um the
the value proposition if you are a dex how good are your prices for example and and if you today today
if you manage to provide i don't know people like um a 10 discount on the mortgage for example even if
your user interface is really i think people will uh know how to use it sort of speaking right
so yeah that would be my take on ux i think everyone is talking about ux but i would i would prefer that
you know we talk about use cases and functionalities and linked to the real world in terms of um
value proposition i think ux comes second that that's my opinion
cool well yeah i i really agree a whole huge amount there didier i think it's uh ux is what you
debate if you're not sure about uh the value proposition of what you're uh trying to bring
into the market uh if if you're in a really ultra competitive space and conversion rates matter a ton
uh yes oh we've got some really really bad pieces in uh in crypto in general around ux and that's
more about the onboarding ramp to bring new users into the ecosystem in the beginning but that's
generally not the job of the core people in d5 there's the on-ramp stuff is uh a much greater
and bigger ecosystem to deal with and that's where a lot of the ux effort needs to go into but we are so
far from uh optimizing the core business cases of uh what goes on in d5 i mean i mean but if i look
at the model in places like gmx uh and i've got a background in financial markets uh the the idea
that 10 times leverage and some really poor margin offsets represents value is just abhorrent to me
it's it doesn't even scratch the surface of how these instruments need to be from a
uh capital efficiency perspective compared to uh every other asset class so if we want to track
money in and show that we've got a better model of doing stuff we've got we've got a lot of work
to do still so yeah and it's not it's not going to be done by optimizing ux
yeah yeah i mean without going into the rabbit hole of ux um i mean a lot of it is even just the
actual use of of the the chains and having it like if if you want to use like if you wanted to come to
quit swap from a different chain like you either need to maybe go through a bridge which for some
reason scares people or uh you have to like unload onto a centralized exchange and withdraw like a
different token or whatever um a lot a lot of that is is sort of where i see the barrier for like
especially new people coming into crypto like obviously even like the last bull market like
game 5 was a huge sort of that that was one of the huge narratives that they tried to push i don't
know if a lot of you have actually played any game 5 but i have played a few of the games just to
sort of test them out and uh there's so many metamask approvals like just click click click click
click click click click like no no one wants to do that like you don't load up fortnite and then you
have to click like a thousand times to be able to just proceed through the game um i mean obviously we
can eventually get there like uh even obviously without chilling polygon too much uh with the zk tech that's
coming up obviously they have like a bunch of adopters like immutable um like canto uh we we've
actually passed the governance vote to launch and like asked our network we've got a current one for
mana um because we we have like a polygon only sort of um thing but now everyone's just coming to
polygon um but like with with the the way the zk techs work um all all of these chains that the more
adoption that they all get the cheaper the gas fees will be for each different chain so if immutable
takes off with all their game fight stuff it'll make the the other chains like maybe mana or rasta
or something actually cheaper because all of that gets submitted to like a validation layer and then
that gets submitted to ethereum so basically that the busier that all these chains get the cheaper it'll
be for transactions and where i'm going with that is that eventually it might actually be feasible for
some of these chains to pay maybe your gas fees or um basically just take away a lot of the ux stuff that
is a blocker for people especially through game fight like these people want to like build like
triple a games but imagine the amount of clicks that you'd have to do if they had to like just track
every transaction that you've done it would be an absolute nightmare obviously there is stuff like
immutable passport where they can just sort of uh or even um that there are sort of uh wallets that
you can essentially just be like okay approve all the transactions that i'm going to be doing on
this game for the next 20 minutes or an hour or something and just work through that um so i i think
that might be where where things are going but um especially just now even just the actual
clicking through all the buttons and stuff is a nightmare for ux
yeah i tend to agree with okay i agree with didier and james right on the point that maybe value
propositions is more important than than ux but um what i'm what i'm trying to to ask here is uh what if we
apply it to like the mass adoptions for example if i want for my my my my mom and my dad to use d5 for
example i think how no no matter what value proposition uh curve for example uh you know proper rifle for
for them i don't think that with that kind of ux they will be able to operate uh any transactions on such
platform so uh yeah yeah i agree with you and and have a very good example um in my personal experience
right because um i think it was yeah during covid i set up an account a near account uh with my wife
right and i showed her how to you know buy nfts and so on but after a few seconds and you know how how
fast near is in terms of you know transaction finality but but my wife was like wow this is
super slow so i think if you want to uh if you want mass adoption you need to remove the blockchain
experience right you you need to abstract that and a very good um um example of what's happening um
towards this direction is basically you know so-called web 2.5 use cases so we have you know a sweat
economy on near and we have kk now and and basically those users they have you know an app on their
smartphones but they don't even know that they are using near protocol right they do transactions and
everything is happening behind the scene so i think that's a good example of a good user experience
right and where you can abstract uh the blockchain experience where you know there is a cost of
owning your data obviously but also your assets you need to sign every transaction it's it's it's awful
it's it's really painful uh for you know normies so that would be my takeaway but just to um come back
to ux i think ux can be i don't think us ux should be the first focus but i think ux can be a differentiator
for a project right because let's say you want to you know build the decks and these decks will be
a fault of uniswap b2 for example then if you manage to actually have a very a better user experience
than uh uniswap then basically you will also address uh something very interesting for you know users and
the markets but uh but but but i think in d5 we've come to a certain point where the best user
experience have barely changed for the last few years and there's a reason for that because they
are great because a very good explanation to something is something that is hard to vary over
time so you look at uniswap they've just cracked it right with with their swap um uh user experience
that doesn't mean there is not not a better solution but i'm saying it's really difficult to
stand out ux only um sort of speaking yeah
yeah i tend to agree with you on that um because no no no no matter what good ux good user interface
that you you build if you don't abstract all the blockchain uh like in front of it then and then
it's still going to be not as good as like uh web2 applications right i think the the most prominent
example we can talk about we can touch upon is is centralized exchange right uh i think centralized
exchange overall they provide really good user experience because they abstract all the
blockchain thing blockchain operations behind its operations you can trade any later one tokens right
on right on the interface of the centralized exchange i think d5 is nowhere near uh that kind of experience
for example if i want to swap uh some solana for some year for example then i will have to swap solana to
a to a stable and then bridge the stable from a bridge maybe two bridge even for the stable to land or near
and then i swap the stable to near so that is just terrible user experience and we we're not going to
achieve uh adoptions with that kind of experience so i definitely agree with you on that chain abstraction
is something that we have to uh it's a final goal we need to achieve okay i think it it's interesting
that that personally i don't think that the centralized exchanges have a particularly great user experience
on them at the moment now they enable some things that we don't see on d5 such as the example that you've
just given uh solana to me it it's it's it's much easier to do it in that sort of environment but
compared to other marketplaces they're still unwieldy and complex and more importantly
we've got no transparency on how they're holding their assets or what they're doing with them or
security concerns and these things blow up with regularity and that that probably is the item that
puts off more people coming into the marketplace than anything else but i mean the same goes in d5 to a
degree when uh we look at people's concerns about bridges and we see something like multi-chain it's
the multi-chain bridge blow up really caused a whole bunch of problems so it's
we haven't yet solved these issues but as we start to solve them as we start to more mature and as we
start to do a little bit more composition and platforms that bring these things together and aggregate them
and prevent a better uh present a better ux and maybe with some platforms such as payment platforms
that are more like web 2.5 that enable smooth transition of fiat capital into it we might get
to the place where we're able to uh give a user experience that people can come into this with the
whole point of this being that in 10 to 15 years time everyone is using blockchain and nobody knows or
cares that that's there because it's like what's the server running on is it linux or something else
yeah i completely agree with jamesh i would just take centralizing as a as an example of user experience
um uh not to this not not not to say that central exchange is great or anything um so yeah
so talk about chain abstractions um why why do we need chain abstraction obviously it's for good ux right
but also because we have i think we have too many network at the moment um uh did you maybe you can spin up
some numbers around how many layer one we are are we having and how many layer twos are we having
and the number of applications built on top of those networks yeah and and and just to answer your first
question about you know shell abstraction that comes also with account abstraction right because
people today for example if you uh tell someone in the street well let's set up a web3 wallet together
and then you tell uh this guy well don't you know lose your secrets otherwise you won't have access to
your wallet anymore and and and we also need to talk about you know recovery and and that's a really
painful point that we haven't solved yet and and once you tell that to people then they understand that
that's that that's their responsibility and people don't like responsibility right that's why the you know
when they have you know uh money at the bank um that that's not their responsibility anymore
if you know the bank uh lose the money because the state will uh insured uh like an amount a minimal
amount of this money so anyway i think account uh recovery is still a problem we need to solve but
well if you manage to do that for the end users then obviously you've solved the problem uh but
shen abstraction comes with many stuff right uh to your question about how many layer twos i have no
idea i think looking at defy lama we have we have hundred plus uh layer one and layer twos so i would
say 100 at least um would be yeah um the the number to look at in terms of uh yeah in terms of uh shens
right and they all have their uh different you know functionalities or like small features and all
the shen do not have you know doesn't have and uh that's there is a very like the space is highly
fragmented but people we are fragmented because people disagree right that's why we have different
options and i think uh vitalik at some point uh was right to mention that the the future will be
multi-shen and not like a single shen so yeah i i'm i just think that's yeah 100 plus uh shens
for layer ones and layer twos
yeah uh yeah and i think you all agree that the defy experience is uh fractionalized and fragmented
and also to add a point on account abstractions right with that many networks and each
network requires you to have like a wallet for that and and each wallet you have you need to create
like your own c phrase and you have to save like multiple c phrase and that's just terrible and for on
the accounts abstractions i think it should be a way for an account on one network can be able to control
other accounts on other accounts on other networks i think that is something that near is doing
with uh i think ilia poses one i think it's cross settlement or something is the ability to
initiate transactions on another network with your account on this network or near for example
and then on the six phrase uh uh problem i think that's also a big challenge for for us to solve right
to achieve mass adoptions uh and i think near is come really close to our solutions where you can create
a wallet with your email only and see for is gonna be safe to your uh i don't know the technical stuff but
but i think he is working on uh the the approach uh pretty pretty much uh aligned with uh account
abstractions and the ability to use one account and initiate initiate uh transactions on multiple network
um so yeah uh yeah just just dipping back into the ux thing like especially on the the wallet side of things
metamask is is worse than curve like i have no idea why why why everyone still just uses metamask i mean that's
the uh the ux for me is absolutely terrible obviously um there are better wallets coming out
um just everyone just everyone just still uses metamask i have no idea why like even even on the the sort
of seed phrase side that that is a massive blocker like no one's gonna like my gran is definitely not
going to make a seed phrase write it on a like inscribe it on a bit metal and then chuck that at the bottom
of the sea in a safe and then go get that whenever she she uh loses her seed phrase um so there are like
npc wallets um that are using maybe like facial recognition and like uh even like the shard and
like uh as much as ledger got a huge pushback on that where there's like three i mean i've had
and personally know people that have like a third of their seed phrase in a different country a third of
it in a different country and it is metal like the the i've seen guys create a seed phrase on a laptop
and then smash it with a hammer um the the the wallet side of things is definitely somewhere we
really really need to work on um and the account abstraction definitely with that i mean some of
these wallets have actually seen um you can set like a designated wallet so if you die uh and your
wallet has had no activity for six months you can automatically just send out all the assets to a
a new wallet so basically you're just allowed to die and all your crypto doesn't um just get lost
forever um yeah yeah that that's a huge part of uh what what we need to work on as well because
seed phrases especially are an absolute nightmare i thought the normal storage for a seed phase was
uh photo on icloud yeah yeah obviously all of mine are um but yeah well that is it like everyone will
just be like the metamask will be like hey don't take a photo of this absolutely do not take a screenshot
and then you're like there we go
that's so me every time
yeah uh moving on um yeah i think we just mentioned that there is like a more than 100
layer one and layer two right so and and it's definitely a problem that we have too many networks
and fragmented experience so um you guys are all like d5 builders and have a deep knowledge uh
uh can you maybe like um example some of the current effort on on the landscape they're trying to
address the the problem i mean i'll quickly jump in there again uh without shilling polygon too much
um i don't know how much um you guys are familiar with like the polygon cdk and and the stuff they're
building but um basically um any any chain because it can essentially adopt the polygon ck tech
spin up their own chain sort of make their own rules have their own native gas token do whatever
they want and all the finality gets back to to um to ethereum uh so it's proved by ethereum so um
james actually mentioned the multi-chain incident i think uh and that literally isn't a possibility
anymore on the polygon cdk once everything's sort of up and running it will literally be like atomic swaps
between all the chains so um i think avogotchi is agreed to just make a polygon cdk chain they're
not even going to deploy a dex on that chain they just want people to come and play their game on
that chain and then if you want to go trade you can take your tokens atomic swap right back to maybe
polygon pos and then make your swaps there um all all of these chains will have literally just um
almost instant bridging instant finality it's not like maybe on optimism or something where you have to
draw your eath back to ethereum and then wait a whole week um before you get your tokens back
it is literally just uh it's like 40 seconds and that the only reason that takes so long is because
the theorem is so slow so uh yeah dda um definitely mentioned earlier that uh i forgot what i'm talking
about um yeah i've lost my truly thought but yeah um yeah yeah no maybe um but yeah it's more the the
actual sort of bridge experience and and sort of moving between all these chains um the polygon sort
of narrative that they're working on is like unified liquidity ultimate scalability so all these chains
will be able to completely interact with each other without having um any and they've all got the
security of ethereum so yeah i mean that that's massive for me anyway uh because you literally don't
have the multi-chain incident but i think you're right that's that that's a big value add that uh these
issues are being solved uh so as they can't happen any further but i think it's uh it's interesting that
we're still seeing this increase in the number of chains so seeing bay seeing sui seeing so aptos
seeing you know arbitrum and optimism and all of these entities putting out and growing their their
community basis and their product basis and it it feels a bit like being in the 90s again and watching
all the linux variations sprout up and everyone having ubuntu and all sorts of different variations on
these platforms things consolidate things will consolidate when the use case on one of these chains
becomes big enough to start to attract people in from the outside which one it is is going to be based
on the narrative so it brings us back to what we're saying on narrative you look back at vhs versus
beta beta max it was not the in the videotape wars it was not the best that won and it will not necessarily
be the best that wins in here it'll be the one that has the right narrative and does the right market
capture and if the right people come into it other people start building there then all of the little
issues that whatever that chain is faces will get uh completed and they'll start to win so that's
and that's why it's so important that it's not just sweat and it's not just uh seat and it it's an
attempt to go and get more and more good high quality projects that attract different user bases in for
near you think they need to be farming those guys in to be getting a really really clear narrative
about why those guys should be joining this chain and getting those big projects in because they don't
know which one will hit and that's the same thing that every other chain is facing out there so they've
got to keep solving those problems because they don't know which one of those projects is going to be
the one that leads the next big step forward
yeah um actually have a different thought i i think that uh there can be like a chain that that leads
other other chains um i think that no matter how how how much bridges we build or how many multi-chain protocols
people build the um the the the whole landscape will still be fragmented because um let's say you
bridge from a chain to another chain but that is just assets you still have to navigate through
applications on each chain and then the wallet of each of each chain so i think uh
uh i i'm not uh how how do you say it
well i i think i think that's what what you say and and and bus you know um um blockchain operating system
and and the idea of decentralized front ends will sort of you know solve the problem you mentioned right
because you can have in one interface many applications coming from different uh shens and and then you log in
with you know you know different accounts and then you can interact with those shens and those applications
in one place so i i think we are uh um getting there slowly uh but yeah otherwise i i think it's difficult to see
at the moment uh what really you know stands out within the space i also think that because of the bear markets
um with you know there is a lot of uh stuff happening in the background and and we will see uh strong
iterations and and improvements and new uh use cases going to markets in the next few months uh but yeah
otherwise i tend to agree with uh uh with with gems on that um although i understand your points uh kudam
yeah what i was just saying is that there isn't going to be like a one rule or change and
i think all the chains can kind of work together but there's a need for an
a generation layer right um which is uh we're talking about the dbos here um so maybe from the
perspective of a d5 builder um how do you see the potential of the bos in in improving the d5 landscape
the potential of the dbos uh sorry yeah uh yeah i'm i'm i'm skeptical um around you know decentralized
front ends i'm not not that i'm skeptical but because i i do understand the value rights um
um and and um i i think bus will be successful the only missing piece for me is how do you incentivize
developers to build decentralized front ends and and for me that's a key question right because today
uh you have you know two things in web3 you have uh the smart contract and you have how people interact
with the smart contract which is the interface right uh or they can do it programmatically directly but
that's another subset of users but talking about the interface well the smart contract is pretty
straightforward if you develop it then you choose the business model right you choose for decks well
what's going to be the commission every time someone you know trades on your platform but when someone
builds uh builds like an alternative interface on top of your decks then what's the incentive
apart from you know doing a great job um i i think we need to create this um this this avenue to revenue
for front-end developers on bus right well i'm actually i've built the best front-end on bus that's those
aggregates uh the best uh you know d5 marketplaces and have let's say 100 000 users um per month active
you're not going to make money there's no revenue model yes so i'm i'm i'm just saying
how could we you know incentivize those users uh could it be a referral fee uh for those
developers sorry uh at the smart contract level uh i think this is still a problem we need to solve
like i i think there's some really interesting aspects of it that uh take the the story forward but
near is a fantastic technology platform and everything around nightshade and scale for
uh for sharding uh the rust base to it to allow you to build more complex products with
better abstraction and be able to understand the testing complexity of them well it's a fantastic
platform the the next steps for near is about getting more projects and more adoption
uh and a much bigger community in there it's not it it it's already up there among the better
technology blockchains i'm i'm not sure that's that would be where my focus is and it's laudable and
it's good but i i want to see what the plans are for uh taking the community forwards and getting more
more more projects into this space yeah i i completely agree with you on that uh james um just to respond
to ddr um point right uh i agree that there should be some kind of incentive for for developers to
build front-end on boss but on the other hand i think boss solves a really interesting case of
of uh discovery and um and you know aggregations right because the problem is we have too many chains
and people are not gonna spend all the time to navigate to through every chance right i mean i'm
staying on near for like more than two years now and um near is the the the chain that i use the most i i
often just navigate through like not every chance so i think there is a need for a place to aggregate all
the all the chain together and somehow users can just go to one place and to discover all the uh
uh you know all the things that being built on different chains so i think that the the the the
things that offer developers to do to build front-end on the bus is uh the discovery discovered
how do you say it discover ability for users to find your product yeah i'm not sure if i put it right
yeah i totally agree i think uh uh discoverability is a huge thing on bus and it's totally crap at the
moment uh i mean it's very difficult to navigate um to find what you want on bus let's say for example
refinance has built a great uh bus decentralized front-end for you know the the the decks but you
you actually cannot find it easily at the moment so i think for users it's quite difficult to discover
new stuff uh and and you know popular stuff on bus right now so that's a very interesting problem to
solve and the second thing is for builders and developers well you want for example you come to
near and then on bus you want to search for examples of how developers have developed a swap functionality
and then you're going to search for swap and you're going to have how vex uh is doing swap how refinance
is doing swap how you know spin finance is doing swap and you will have three different methods and you
have a benchmark of a certain functionality and and then you will potentially have the mapping also of
a project right which is also very interesting how does a d5 platform operate you have a dow and then you
have a smart contract that does this thing but you have another smart contract that does staking and so on so
for builders you can have access to the mapping of at the organizational level which is also something
very powerful but that that doesn't exist yet and and i think this is a very interesting problem to
solve and because it is not easy to solve i think the opportunity is great for anyone who wants to you know
um tackle uh this uh this topic right but but bus feels like on the discovery thing a bit
like a regression compared to what we had with awesome near so i know that many um a few folks
are working on the topic uh but this is definitely something we need to improve and um and i think near horizon
is working on that actually um and uh yeah i i totally agree with you
yeah i just uh sometimes something just crossed my mind when you talk about uh if one if one built a
component on the boss there should be some kind of referral fees to incentivize them to be on with the
boss right and so if you know uh if you notice on the market the uniswap they just implement like a
0.15 fee or something to the to their ui and so maybe just a quick check of everyone's here um
do you see any rationale behind it or or do you agree with as a user as a builder and from your own
perspective so i'll be really quick 100 a bit this is exactly where the model is going distribution to
pay for front ends through affiliate fees and through uh marketing it it's incentivizing
front ends to right here is going to be a really big piece of the next generation
i mean i'll jump in here um as much as we were talking about consolidating chains um
like there are a whole bunch of defi protocols that sort of just have a tiny little niche that
probably should eventually be consolidated into like a larger thing like uh maybe something like
one inch uh is a great example where it's like aggregate all the dexes um instead of you having
to like go and hunt if you want to trade a particular token instead of you going to have to hunt through
15 different dexes to try and get the best trade you just go in like one inch or power swap or something
and then and that's you um so to give a little backstory and quick swap are you you sorry are
you even ask a chat gpt to execute the trade for you but maybe we'll be the next yeah yeah that
yeah to give a little backstory and quick swap we uh we were like one of the first nexes on on
polygon and we sort of helped build that and then through that we actually um we spoke to even people
that people would probably deem as competitors to us to try and get them like onto the chain
obviously competition is healthy um and and through the whole sort of modular nature of um web 3 instead
of like actual competitors most people end up just working together like even recently quick quick
soft just started working with um like ape swap which are rebranded to a bond um people build on top
of each other on on web 3 instead of just trying to like knock each other's towers down um
so even on quick swap on zkvm we actually have like a boss dashboard uh where we have i think we've got
like pancake swap we've got balancer uh we've got a bridge in there we've got a link to like gamma which
is like an active liquidity manager for v3s um yeah definitely sort of working together to even even
aggregate everything or make everything easier to find it is is a hugely important um and and and building
the ecosystem like if if one of these protocols and on a certain chain does really well and brings
over hundreds of thousands of users or millions of users the whole ecosystem tends to flourish um
like even gmx as much as um that got shade earlier they they brought a whole bunch of adoption to to
arbitrum and they brought a bunch of users over
yeah uh i think i agree with you on on on that front um i think you brought in really an interesting
point jaren which is on in in v3 we build on top of each other but not like uh to overthrow each other
and i think bios is really interesting case of building on top of each other right where you can
deploy components on top of the boss uh making uh like a an alternative ui of your applications on an
aggregator generally i i think um alternative ui on on the device can act as like a like a stepping stone for
for how do you say like a ui ui abstractions and eventually lead to abstractions i i think one of the
reasons that the telegram bot narrative rose up is it's kind of abstract the uh the complex ui of dexes and
uh clicking buttons but but to to set up your wallet with the telegram bot is another thing
that's why people use it and make it into a simple like buttons on telegram that's why that's why people
use it i'm not sure if you guys have the same idea or not about the uh the telegram bot narrative i think
telegram bot is great it's abstract the complete complexity ui of defy blockchain overall and it's just
uh clicking uh clicking buttons but but but to to set up your wallet with the telegram bot is another
other thing but uh i think it's a it's it's why it you're getting picked up by the the market
yeah um i mean i i agree and uni but i think we all have this you know example in mind and and that was
a that's a very successful project and and was a project that you know uh stood out when everything was
shit uh a few months ago uh but but on buzz just to answer your question i think that yeah developers
need developers need to find you know real use cases so for example um a very good use case would be
smart routing today for dexes on near right so you build like a smart router you don't need to change
anything at the smart contract level and then you can route a trade through you know vex uh ref finance
spin finance and you aggregate like amm functionalities with uh central limit order book uh uh kind of
stuff and that that's an example a second example and i think ref finance is looking at that uh i i've
always pushed for that when i was the pm there and uh this is you know batch liquidity so today
if you want for example to suggest a user to be exposed to any stablecoin pools within the entire near
ecosystem then in one click you can actually swap you know usdt and be in two stablecoin pools on on vex and
three stablecoin pools on ref and all of that in one click right batch liquidity that could be also a
great example of what could be done on on top of us in my opinion and and something uh yeah i'm surprised
that we haven't seen that yet uh yeah that that's a really good one didier i think seeing that in a
couple of the other ecosystems where the decks that's partially owned by foundational or close to it
it's certainly closely held making the efforts to be able to support the rest of the defy projects
around them by putting in that sort of aggregation and routing and liquidity deployment to make sure
that the ecosystem is healthy and that other people with other ideas are supported yeah exactly or even
imagine like in one clinic in one click dgens can access all the farms to the entire ecosystem right
that's also something that could be done actually uh but uh yeah i'm i i i'm i'm yeah i would be very
excited to see that on bus uh very soon yeah i think uh uh if you notice dabdab is a it's a commercial uh
aggregation product that we're on top of bus and i think that are also accurate like near near protocols
right uh like the application different applications built on near and i think from dubdab you can access
pretty much uh all the um your opportunity or like swapping uh most efficient routing i don't know i think uh
dabdab uh can be uh a solve to that problem i'm not sure if you know uh aware of that so yeah i'm so
moving on to i guess we don't have much time but let's moving on to the uh quick swap um gateway right
so polygon zkvm is actually the first gateway that deployed by another ecosystem outside of near so
darren maybe you can talk a bit about uh um the component and the app that is currently on the gateway
and you guys also have a campaign a swapping campaign right uh what was the experience from
from that and uh what are the takeaways uh used to do you guys get from the reading on the bus
yeah that i touched on it uh like the last time but um yeah i mean quick quick swap sort of um the way
that we worked with polygon initially was we basically wanted to help foster adoption we we've brought
um hundreds of projects over to to polygon from different chains like bnb and ethereum and and uh
and we've basically just been doing business for polygon for for three years now um but yeah so so
obviously just quick swap or just um sort of any that usually can't bring adoption to the whole chain
you need you need you need an army you need uh you need dexes uh you need maybe even like borrowing and
lending protocols even game fight like you want everyone to be able to use your chain um so we
sort of built the the boss dashboard in the mind that um it would help build the ecosystem over on zkvm which
is obviously like a new chain um when we launched it and yeah the the plan was for um everyone to sort
of just get a look like dip their toes in the ecosystem um instead of just you there is such a
sort of um tribal nature in crypto where like if you've got one dex that you like you'll just stay
there most of the time um or one chain that you like you'll stay there forever um so even just sort of
getting getting a little bit access to to different protocols on the chain uh sort of dip your feet
um is is huge um and obviously you might like the experience uh you might um just stop using quick
swap and go over to start using balancer but yeah i mean that's that's something that um we'll sort of
build the ecosystem that the more the more people we can um obviously onboard into crypto and then
onboard on all these different chains is um is huge and then yeah obviously we we've done a campaign
that sort of incentivized the use of the dashboard um literally just to to help um obviously to
facilitate use of the ecosystem um that's exactly sort of what we we want to help promote
awesome so i'm not familiar with the quick spark community right but uh is the community have any
feedback on on the gateway uh do they actually use it or i just want to get a quick yeah we we uh zkvm is
is a sort of really new chain um they i mean the tvl i think just now is like 50 9 60 million ish it has
it has been growing recently it did sort of um taper off a little bit but it's been slow and slow and
steady um yeah i mean the we did get a lot of sort of volume through the the campaign um relative to
the amount of actual users on the chain obviously like every chain has like 400 million uh wallets but
most of those might not most of i mean most of the ones are probably gonna probably just my nft hot wallets
um at least maybe 300 million of those um so um yeah but but the yeah we we had a positive sort of
response uh we got um a lot of users through the through the dashboard and then yeah i mean i didn't
actually see any complaints to be honest so uh yeah we must have done something okay
okay awesome that's nice to hear um i hope to see more gateway similar to polygon to kvm on
on the boss soon um so yeah i think uh the the boss uh talk gonna gonna stop here because we're a bit
over time now i just want to touch a quick upon uh the usdc the usdc uh adoptions on near um so
native usdc just went live a few days ago not a few days but like a week a few weeks um and it's
being integrated deeper into the ecosystem um didier do you have like some some interesting stats to show
us like uh comparing usdc to usdc ethereum or something like that
yeah sure um yeah usdc was um native usdc was uh deployed a few months ago i also think that it's
great because users can now obviously transfer native usdc from near directly to centralized exchanges
but the semi side of that is um on the you know user experience we have to deal with like two usdc
the bridged one and and the native one um and and and this is a something we need to tell to the users
um so anyway yeah in terms of uh statistics and actually anyone can access uh those uh you know
metrics for free on bike speak uh but i think the current supply on near uh for native usdc is around 2.6
million and we have uh roughly 200 uh holders which is you know quite um like very tiny at the moment
and uh uh total transfers on the blockchain is over uh 1000 uh which is not a lot when you compare that
to uh breached you know usdc but obviously which has been there for a long time and has benefited
uh from you know the bull market so uh breached usdc 29 million uh total supply on year and you know
over 11 000 holders and at least i mean almost sorry a million transfers on shen so we're not talking
about the same numbers but obviously that's quite normal at the moment uh because native usdc is new
um and and incentives for example on refinance for native usdt has been deployed quite recently so i
would say that the trend is bordering around native usdc but still very tiny uh numbers right um and and
for native usdt for example uh this is more well we expect to see you know native usdc as as native usdt in
terms of numbers and uh native usdt is doing quite well um they have yeah uh 15 million total supply on
chen and uh almost uh 100 000 holders um which is a lot right um but anyway yeah uh many many stable
kind of kind of options on here now awesome i i'd love to come in here on on one usdc because
first of all circle uh invested in vx they were they were one of the people who put some effort
behind trying to get that to market in the first place it's it's been a really interesting launch
process because uh we were a little bit caught on the hop when it first came out so we got there
wasn't a lot of signaling that it was going to be on the platform and it was the guys at circle
reaching out to us rather than seeing it in any of the discord channels or any of the information
before and then when it did come out it wasn't net 141 compatible so that caused some issues so we had
to do a bunch of changes and then just in the last couple of days it's uh been updated to turn it
into a net for one for one compatible which broke a bunch of stuff and therefore needed another
deployment to make that work and again it wasn't signaled too well so it's not been the smoothest
of events but it's a really big step forward so it's it's the right thing to do it's absolutely going
to be a change to all of this and so we uh we personally we're uh incentivizing a lot of the pools with
uh the tokens which we will then release when we do our tge and we're putting a massive amount of
support behind uh boosters for usdc pools to try to drive adoption into it so we're a strong believer
that that will attract a lot of other projects here because it's a stable coin that you can rely on and
you can determine and you can value in the right way so if we want to attract other projects in which
will cause our liquidity to go up then that needs to be supported so we if anyone takes a look at the
acts and goes and looks at the analytics page you'll see some massive reward boosters on there that will
be uh realized when we do a tge at some points during the first half of next year so we're we're big
and supportive big supporters it would be nice if it was a little bit smoother on the launch so as we
could really throw our weight behind it uh on the same day awesome i'm just kidding um yeah
okay um so just to quickly overview the the current use case of usdc on near um there is a refinance
for purchase not launched a few days ago which is quite uh lucrative reward i would say
uh and then burrows which is the landing platform on near is also integrated native usdc and there's
vex integrated uh usdc into their uh dcl i think i actually think because i swap stable a lot and i
actually think uh vex gives some really good rate for stable con converting so uh big up for vex on that
and then on the next step of the usdc um i got some some intel info uh orderly and trisolaris
it's gonna have uh it's gonna integrate usdc soon and um yeah uh stay tuned so i guess that's it for our
space today uh i went a bit over time but all good um any final cta you guys wanna tell the community
uh tell the audience here so i i think as we've got a big near community here and we're trying to push
these visitor rewards come and show us we're doing the right thing by supporting these pools if you
think these are the right things to do come put some small transactions through and show us we're doing
the right thing but it's the lick for the liquidity in the right places that the aprs on those are
supporting the right places that would be really helpful for all of us didier any last one yeah no
thanks uh really appreciated uh this space and uh yeah no thanks a lot for the invitation
um and uh yeah if you guys want to have a look at you know any metrics on near protocol or if you
want to check you know your wallet or any wallet portfolio historical transaction out well it's uh
you know what's what's pretty hot at the moment on here uh and i think aurora is quite hot at the
moment uh yeah just uh you can log in on pikespeak.ai uh you can sign up for free and uh have access to
all the features and our api also if you want to build uh you know stuff on top of uh smart contracts
or you know anything basically so yeah just uh you can if you have any questions uh just uh you can
join our telegram and thanks a lot again for the invitation really uh appreciate this space
yeah darren
yeah no just uh thanks for having us on it was great to be here uh happy to come back anytime
yeah awesome yeah so everyone remember to check to check out vx to go to vx.com try to swap some
usdc or provide liquidity uh try to go to pi speak the number one analytic platform on near uh check your
wallet and go to also don't forget to check out the uh quick swap gateway which is have a bunch of
d apps on dkvm that you can initiate on right on the bus uh and it's been your week uh we are the
official new protocol newsletter uh claim this week uh newsletter cover and we see you next time
um see you bye-bye see you guys cheers thank you bye
