Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
vc’s cooked?
Recorded: Aug. 27, 2025 Duration: 3:57:09Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Yo, yo, yo, everybody's joining uh still waiting for frank to join so i can co-host him
oh here we go i think frank just joined all right uh yeah so we have a sick lineup today
um hopefully we also get people that like we we don't expect. That's the best part of spaces is that you can get people when you don't expect them.
We didn't plan on getting Ben Pasternak last time.
Um, but we did somehow.
Uh, I think he just, the word gets around.
Um, so, okay, here we go.
Frank is now speaker.
Um, and now I'm go. Frank is now speaker.
And now I'm going to co-host him.
Yo, Frank.
Hey, what's up?
Just, you know, good to talk.
Good to get on here.
I'm just wondering why, if you want to talk to the audience, why you chose to make, like, why you want to talk about prediction markets this time.
Yeah, can you hear me?
Yeah, you sound great man okay um well i want to talk about prediction markets because john wayne just keeps posting about it
but no but the the real thing is i wonder if it's the next game and i'm definitely skeptical
because i've tried prediction markets before so i want to to know if this time is different. Also, I, hold on,
I'm going to tweet this right now as a reply. Okay. Hold on. So I'm going to pin this link to
the spaces. Okay. In my, in my vibe coding journey, I just wanted to test this. So I try to make like
a live chat for the for the spaces so
you go on there you should be good i the usernames are annoying don't if it says that someone's frank
it's probably not frank uh but yeah you guys can go in there so that way throughout the spaces we
have like a live chat we'll see how it goes um cool yeah so i think i think we're gonna get
jump what's your take rather so yeah people come into space try it out um what's your take so far on the on the
prediction markets have you tried it before yeah i actually have traded uh quite a bit
on prediction markets and i think the number one issue that that i feel is uh is is uh i was faced with is firstly liquidity and then also um the way that you fill
orders the fact that it's all limit orders that's just not how i personally trade and it's not like
oh like razzman's a fucking retard doesn't know how to do limit orders but the way that these work
is it's like a lot of the time um when when it's percent chances like you have to buy like the 78
percent and then you have to buy like the 79 and you have to buy the 80 have you i'm sure you've
i'm sure you've done this frank right have you tried to do this i don't even know yeah the order
book just sucks i mean in my mind right so i feel like uh my main take is that we're due for like a
new form factor of this i would argue that prediction markets are something that's been
pretty hot in solana uh in the solana trenches but it's not like prediction markets it's oh
you're buying fucking oh zelinski wore a suit oh i'm going to buy a fucking prediction market on if it's actually a suit.
But really, it's not a prediction market.
It's just ticker suit, and it's like a meme coin, right?
There's ways where people bet on things happening in the meme coin world.
That's kind of one that I thought of.
I don't know if you have your own example or how you think of it.
But I feel like in a way, when you buy a meme coin you're
predicting shit right you're predicting if elon will respond right things like that yeah i think
today uh when john gets up here too i'm gonna be more of the skeptic and and kind of shit on
prediction markets and so yeah my experience using it i use it during the uh election camp
like during the whole election cycle and it was cool it's fun but i just don't believe
it's uh better than meme coins at the current stage that it's at so i'm pretty skeptical to
be honest also live chat uh i'm it's just getting absolutely spammed and so uh i'm i just you know
have cursor it's vibe coding and adding a slow mode let's see what happens um but yeah it might
it might not it might not work too well with all
the spam yeah elliot just texted me he goes the live chat is going exactly how i expected
yo no similar similar yeah so i'm waiting for this update it's crazy i you know with vibe coding i
just said can you add a slow mode for five seconds by default so now it's going to propagate the
changes we'll see but uh yeah that's's fucking crazy, huh? Cursor.
And it just updates live?
Like you don't have to take the rest of time?
Yeah, well, I have it set up where when I make an update,
it should like push the new deploy up,
but unclear if it's going to work.
I mean, yeah, it's going how I thought pretty much.
But yeah, we can pretty much ignore it.
If it stays broken for the rest of it,
I'll fix it for the next
one okay cool and you want i see john in the audience perfect time i think for people listening
it's gonna be fun because i'm gonna try my best to shit on prediction markets uh and and make
arguments against it because me raz this is what we were talking about like spaces are mostly fun
when people disagree and they're almost always lame when everyone is kind of glazing each other and disagreeing the whole time uh so yeah
i mean i do you think there's a like do you think there's an appetite for the prediction markets
thing like do you think people want to fucking jesus this fucking chat do you think people want to fucking uh like buy this
i might have to delete the tweet bro um yeah we'll shut down the uh live chat guys it was a good run
it's good i got my practice no i'm sure no i'm looking at it but it's hard honestly even now
in theory this is what's so cool about'm coding is you can really make something quickly and just hate it very very quickly as well
Already I'm just like fuck. It's not annoying to talk to you and then also look at a chat
I don't know how I don't know you streamers do it
Also, wait, are we gonna get guests up Frank cuz I I think it's a cool idea, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah
I mean, I just brought John up. Oh, yeah, of course
I think everyone wants to know what Iseem thinks about prediction markets.
I'm just playing.
But I see you, Iseem.
I love you.
I love you.
John, what's up, man?
Hey, guys.
Thanks for having me.
What's good?
Holy aura.
I thought you were going to say it's Mr. John Wang to you.
I just want you to know, John, if...
It's actually Dr. Wang. you're gonna say it's mr john wang to you i just want you to know john if uh if dr wang
if the prediction markets takes over like the new ct meta i just want you to know you're gonna be main character so just warning you you know ask frank how that goes you know dude that's scary
bro please you should get a little closer to your mic i I think. But, yeah, I mean, do you want to tell everyone, like, what exactly, like, how did you end
up at Kalshi?
And what got you so, why are you so fucking prediction market pilled?
Yeah, so I've been kind of on, like, a tweeting vendor, like, since two months ago.
Mainly was just assessing, you know assessing where the space is going next.
And to me, like, obviously Hyperliquid was like insane.
So like Perps was like one thing that got me really excited.
So I started writing a bunch about like HIP3, which is like the main thing.
And it was like advising ventrals, which is like sort of pre-IPO stock on Hyperliquid, which I think is kind of novel.
And then I've been introduced in like pre-share markets for a very long time. Like,
you know, I've been a big time trader, like since probably around like a year and a half ago,
just like trading here and there on like Polymarket and calci and then um also you know
just saw over back in 2018 was really cool um what kind of what kind of markets were you trading just
curious like which ones you were trading like um your crypto markets on like price but also like
mentions markets were really interesting to me like obviously the election I traded that one um mentions markets are cool because like
you kind of well you have a debate or like a speech um or like a big appearance of a politician
and then there'll literally be a market on what are they going to say and so I'll place like what
I'll do research on like what they've what the language they've used in the past looks like
and then like um what they've kind of said around the topic previously and I'll place bets on like what they've what the language they've used in the past looks like and then like um what
they've kind of said around the topic previously and i'll place bets on like different words they'll
say and it's really entertaining for me because i can kind of just like sit at the speech on the
live stream and then watch them like say words or don't say words um like one of the most funny things for me was like um i was trading like a state of the union
address uh one time um on kaoshi or like on poly i forget which one but like um yeah i was putting
some money on like transgender as a word for for the trump state of the union address and um
or maybe it was like another speech but like he was talking about
transgender sports um but he never used the word transgender like intentionally he was like
men and women's sports and women and men's sports and so like the market nuked to zero
and i was like oh fuck like i'll just like completely lost all my money on this
so i but i kept my money in because it was like scraps anyway and then later on in the speech he was like talking about you know doge and how the government's
wasting money and then um the he was talking about like transgender mice and like how government is
funding research for like changing the gender of mice and the market went to 100 like instantly
which was insane um and it kind of got me hooked that's a great story i just want
to say the most i made i made 5k because uh right when the haiti fucking thing was going crazy
right when i saw it on twitter i i fucking fucking texted polymark guy i texted fucking
hugo i was like bro you need a market for if he's gonna say springfield and you fucking put it on
polymark he's like oh what is that story
he didn't even know what it was and then obviously uh i fucking bought that shit and he's like
they're eating the cats and dogs in springfield so that that was fun
so john i have a question because this is the one thing that i think is the worst part about
prediction markets and you tell me if this is ever going to get fixed with meme coins the dopamine is like instant right
like even if a thing hasn't happened yet like you can trade and speculate pvp instantly there's
volatility instantly um with prediction markets it's almost like the behavior is i buy something
and then i wait for an outcome um what like which is just
less engaging obviously than something that's instant what's your what's your take on that
yeah i mean my take is that um that's a very solvable thing like
more live like i think partition markets has like more pmf with live streaming than meme coins do um the payouts are just like more structured so it makes more sense and then you can kind of like
run recurrent um sorry razzmarino you're a big guy wait what's like a what's like a market though
that would be on live stream like if i was streaming some shit um well like for example
like if it was like itro speed or mr beast then it could be
how many backflips could isho speed do um he does the backflip challenges and then mr beast
um he's doing more live streaming now it could be like markets on like it could be mentioned
markets on what he says or like it could be more so things like um you know any challenges that he
does like people can speculate on that um okay but just again pushing
back like let's say that isho speed has one for backflips if the market got big enough then what
are the allegations of like you know he's he's underselling himself he bet the unders on himself
like wouldn't stuff like if it got lucrative enough or if it got big enough then it would
have that problem what do you think about that?
Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of like a thing with meme coins as well, obviously.
You know, like MLG, for example.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that one.
Yeah, but I think it's like probably,
there's probably safer godrails for prediction markets because like the payouts are structured.
So you can actually like be more intentional with what markets you list to like avoid those allegations maybe.
Or like it could be, I guess, yeah, something that's like more like chance based that like is harder for them to manipulate, I guess.
more like chance-based that like it's harder for them to manipulate i guess um like for example
razmer you go around and you do those interviews of people um trying to like tally like which meme
coin they like like there's like live polling stuff um obviously you could kind of set fake it and
go to specific people to ask for like you know which which person's gonna which win like uh
vote for which meme coin is like the most
appealing but that is like an example of like there's some randomization to it and i think um
generally like what we could do is if there are creator creator markets like we do some revenue
share and i'm just speaking for my own like personal ideas here but we do revenue share with
the creator they can actually do like multiple recurring prediction markets as opposed to like one meme coin. And so they have
an incentive to play, like when you have a recurring game here, you have an incentive to
be long-term aligned and you're going to make like a lot more money by like just doing a lot of
volume by growing your channel. And so I think you have basically this incentive
to play long-term games here, whereas with meme coins, it's like very short-term game focused.
And then like, I think prediction markets and media, social media especially, are very intertwined
because they share the same objective function, which is to maximize disagreement. And you get the most likes by doing rage baiting or like increasing debate about a topic on
Twitter or on social media.
And in prediction markets, it's kind of the same, like the most interesting markets and
the markets with highest volume are the ones where like it's floating around 50-50 for
a while.
And then you see like different informational changes cause spikes or dips and
stuff. But yeah, that's why I think it's a lot more interesting. So one of the issues I've had
with trading prediction markets is just the liquidity in the order books. For example,
I'm looking at, sorry, I'm looking at Polymer right now, but Polymarket, it's at 25% for Putin meeting with Zelensky and $20,000 would slip it up to like 50, 60%, which I know like the orders will get filled if you just place limit orders.
But the liquidity not being present for market orders, I feel like holds back the concept of prediction markets.
I don't know what you think on how they're going to improve on that.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's kind of like a snowball effect to some extent. I feel like we're kind of
still early still. Like, OI on prediction markets is, I think like on Caloshi it's like 100 million at least, which is pretty small in the grand scheme of things.
Like that's like the OI of some shit coins on Hyperliquid.
So we're like really early still.
And I think the next stage is like about converting eyes into like traders.
Kaoshi is like Wall Street market makers on board.
So a lot of like our sports markets and um your bitcoin
markets and stuff are like uh the most liquid um i think polymarket has like more volume right now
um but like a lot of that might be like people um you know placing trades to to get the like
because they have incentive rebates and they don't charge
fees so people might be trading for that um not too sure to be honest okay wait i don't mean to
cut you off john but i just yeah i'm interested like you mentioned stuff about streamers all this
stuff seems kind of small like sports betting let's let's talk about that i mean is there a
market improvement in like in in sports betting on a prediction market versus
a sports book like is this going to disrupt yeah tell me it's a 10x it's a 10x why um because
sports books are pretty good like they're pretty big businesses like they figured most of it out
what what's new with prediction markets it makes that better yeah sure um okay so kashi started
doing sports betting like pretty recently um and they partnered with Robinhood to drive it out. Now Kaoshi, I think, what I've CAHPS is federally regulated, so they have like
access to all 50 states, whereas like sportsbooks kind of have this like patchwork of like states.
But I think the most important part is like the economics are significantly better for
production markets. Like you, as a better, when you're playing against a sports book, it's like you versus the house.
It's one versus N. And they will just rape you on fees. It's like 10% plus. And then they have
really obfuscated economics. Whereas on Calci, the liquidity and the economic scale way better
because it's a peer-to-peer marketplace it's an exchange
and and so like the spreads are like so much tighter um and the ev for people is just better
so this is going to be the winning like you know it's like open it's like open markets open finance
when you decentralize it's away from like the house it's gonna scale is there like a on calci right
now during the game it's like the charts live like during a basketball game like is that how
it works right now or is it just yeah so that's one of the like like that's when i hear that like
that's pretty cool i know you can live bet right now but trading it like a shit coin seems pretty
cool like that that makes sense sorry i'm just trying to be super blunt like because let's say that this is my next question
let's say i have a thousand dollars right now um and i want to go on like prediction markets and
trench that up like what's the equivalent i mean you're a fucking trencher right you know what's
the equivalent here because that's the world where i see the crypto bros getting excited about it.
I haven't seen it yet for the reasons I mentioned before,
the lack of dopamine, lack of instant results.
If you have $1,000, how are you trending that up to like $10K?
Yeah, I mean, I think right now, like picture markets,
it's 0 to 100.
So if you want to get like a 100x or like a 10x,
you have to definitely take like the very contrarian side of the bet,
which is like oftentimes like wrong because it is contrarian.
So I get where you're coming from, which is like, where's the dopamine?
Where's like the asymmetric upside?
And basically, like I can't really say details but it's coming like um there there are
actually going to be like product improvements that make it so that you can um kind of like
increase your upside like exponentially so uh yeah oh cool it sounds like leverage chat no chat
i don't know it sounds like what has, Frank, it has to be hit three,
right?
I mean,
so I'm curious cause John had a massive,
fucking article about this.
I think,
I think if I was couchy,
I'd be like,
this is why I'm fucking,
you know,
hiring you or whatever.
This is why you're like,
imagine getting liquidated on the Lakers game,
right?
Like,
cause you're over like,
I'm just wondering what,
what that would look like because
i'll be honest maybe this is the bro in me john like and so again i'm here to learn like we have
an audience and shit but i told razzler i just want to know if i should be spending more time
on this and i'm i'm pretty skeptical about you know what to spend time on so sports seems fun
because you can go from sports betting like binaries to trading your port up with the fucking
line graph and you know like just how you do with shit coins and the dope means pretty fast because
what the max length of a game is like a couple hours and you get to watch a sports game um
i'm wondering if there's anything else like i see i'm on the website so i see crypto
i see sports i see politics um of these sectors like let's say they're
all mini meme scopes right fucking funny analogy but let's say uh yeah what could people be spending
more time on what have you been spending time on and you you're like legally required to use
the product so yeah wait what do you think dude the couch is a regular federally regulated like exchange so i'm like legally not allowed to
use the product no way wait talk more about that how does that like so nobody at calci can use the
product i mean like i think we're trying to figure out some ways to like see if it's like cftc guided
it's it's literally like the same licensing that like the cme which is the largest derivatives
exchange in the world plus like you're kind of like it's like basically like the new york stock
exchange like um it's it's like real and like this is plugged into like all of wall street um
this yeah but like the goal is to like grow into something that's uh like a hundred billion
dollar company like coinbase robin hood level. So my next question is, maybe you're getting personal here is like, so you just posted your
way to a very, very sick job that is important. And like, you know, is, is, uh, it's just,
it's a big deal. What's that experience been like for you the last couple of days? Um,
what's that experience been like for you the last couple of days?
Yeah.
Any thoughts there?
Yeah.
I think some people have been, like, a bit confused with, like, how I got here.
So, you know, I started, like...
The subject of many memes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Go, girl.
I mean, I started writing about friction markets and perps and stuff, like, first.
It's not like I got paid to write about it and then, like, started writing about it.
Like, I was, like, genuinely nerd sniped on this topic and then I was like asking I mean I reached
out to like Matt Huang and like Kyle from um Param and Multicoin I was like I want a job you
know I've been kind of like unemployed for the longest time just like trenching and so um they
were like uh they well I also talked to like I'm close to the Dragonfly guys and the Polychain guys who did PolyMarket.
So basically talked to both teams and then got really like excited about the production market space was like, I have to go all in as a builder.
like i have to go all in as a builder um and so uh you know initially i was like couch what's
couch he couch he's like this i don't know like fed sort of uh not crypto native and like um
i don't know like uh not like like cool exchange right like it's like for normies and fintwit and
stuff um so i was i was a bit like you know why why is calci interesting
like but then i got to know the team and i did like a lot more research in the area and just like
the nuances of um you know the economics like calci is the only prediction market in the entire
space like actually generating revenue um has like a big broker distribution model with like
robin hood um and, we basically have like,
over a dozen partners that are Robinhood level, like I'm talking like millions of users.
Wait, so are the Robinhood perps through Kalshi? Is that?
No, not the perps, but we have prediction markets.
I mean, sorry, the prediction markets.
Yeah, it's all Kalshi on the backend and it's like on the page of Robinhood.
Like if you go to a Robinhood app, I'm pretty sure it's like crypto, then stocks, then Kalshi. And so I think I just got like
incredibly bullish on Kalshi. I feel like it's very, very underappreciated in the crypto community.
And I felt like it was like the right fit for me culture-wise as well, because
everyone here is just like, you're crap super low ego um and so yeah
that's kind of how i ended up here and um yeah i did i guess like tarik did notice me from like
posting on twitter and stuff so um can you can you explain because most of the audience we have
450 people so i would guess probably 430 of them don't know what HIP3 is.
And that's like where I fucking,
that was the first article I read of yours about this.
So I'm very curious if you could describe what it is
to the audience and then like say how it actually can like
grow like the space of prediction markets as a whole
and why they're important.
Because it's really interesting.
Yeah, so I wrote
an article on prediction market perps being like um something that could be on hyperliquid and this
was before I joined um and so um yeah I mean you can kind of get a clue that like I was posting
about this like a lot like a lot longer before then okay but what lessons do you yo john i'm curious so i understood that what
lessons do you feel like for people listening that are like that look up to you because of
what just happened like you know people see you shit posted they don't know what's going on behind
the scenes holy shit now you have like this role that just being candid i think a lot of people in
the space uh would like what advice do you have there?
I'll quickly explain Rasmus' HIP3 thing, and then I'll get to your question.
So basically, like HIP3, you can list any perp.
And I think one of the most interesting things could be, like,
you're giving leverage and being able to trade prediction markets like a perp
on top of Kaoshi.
I'm building, like, an entire perp on top of Kaoshi. I'm building an entire builder ecosystem on top of Kaoshi.
We're basically running back the hyperliquid model.
Kaoshi is like a chain.
You can think of Kaoshi as a developer platform that's chain agnostic
because we're off-chain.
We can take inflows from any chain, hyperliquid, Solana, Sui, Avalanche, every chain you can build on top of us.
And we want to aggregate the best builders in the space.
And Periction Market Pups is one of the most interesting things, I think, where you can get leverage.
It's been tried before by like DYDX, FTX, Drift.
by like DYDX, FTX, Drift.
And so I think it's not new and it could be interesting,
but it just needs to be designed in the right way
to ensure like you don't get insolvent.
In terms of like advice,
I think like owning a specific vertical early
as a narrative helps.
And you wanna like basically say things
that are like novel or under discussed because then you have
like asymmetric upside in terms of mindshare um so for me like hip 3 was kind of kind of being
discussed um but i like went really specific into what different hip 3 stuff would look like and why
it's interesting um wrote some articles about that
and then prediction markets i think um they're they're at all-time highs again actually in terms
of volume like we were blasting past like election highs um in terms of like mindshare well not maybe
not mindshare but like in terms of like usage we're blasting past election highs it's almost
like bidding resistance here and i think it's going to like gigasend through through the resistance bands um basically and how does so that's actually
shocking that it's fucking approaching election highs but i'm curious with the prediction market
perps like how does it actually help the user experience and how does it help the space grow
like is it actually even even on a 1x is it better to trade the perps than it is to trade in the order book?
Is it actually a better experience?
Is it more liquid?
How do you see that playing out?
Yeah.
I think prediction market perps probably only make sense on the most liquid markets on Kaushy.
So, for example, if it was the Trump election or if it's like a huge like macro decision,
those are the only markets like liquid enough to support it. Basically, you'd keep the
prediction market perp kind of pegged to like the Cauchy price via like an Oracle.
And you'd want to do some like spot arbing between the spot market on like Kaoshi and then like the production market perp.
And you basically would be able to access leverage.
You can trade it like the way you're familiar with, which is like on like a purpose exchange.
And yeah, I think that's probably the main two benefits.
But this would be kind of like, this could be an entirely permissionless
build. Like, we wouldn't, I wouldn't have to work with any team that is building this,
although I, like, obviously will work closely with any team that wants to build on top of Kaoshi.
Yo, welcoming up, welcoming up some new people to the stage. What's up spec?
How's it going? Nice to hear your voice, man. What, uh, what brings you up here?
Oh, I'm just listening. Just wanted to get some followers, but, uh,
No, I mean, you post about this stuff pretty often pretty often right i feel like i see you on my timeline pretty often and don't be humble yeah so i'm interested what's like this i feel
like i don't know much about prediction markets but what i know about kalshi is uh kolachi i don't
know how to say it i i do know that you guys have always been on more of the, you know, regulatory,
you're not in the gray area.
You're,
you're in all of the,
you know,
us approved,
you know,
bounds,
but,
but where did,
where does that line get drawn,
with,
with all the crypto shit?
Do you have free reign to actually build this or is it going to be a
grift?
Is this a pop? Is this exit liquidity?
Definitely not. I mean, I think in terms of like Koushi,
Koushi's like origins, you know, we started in 2018,
sort of like the longest standing pioneer of prediction markets.
And the mindset has always been like missionary pragmatism,
which is, want to build frontier markets and like bring this new thing to the world.
But then like, how can we get as much product market fit and like users as possible? And
the right approach I think was like, let's go to where the users are, where the normies are.
Let's try to make this legally compliant so that we can ship it in the US properly and get it to the biggest market in the world.
And so now that I'm joining, my goal is to bring crypto to the heart of Kaoshi.
Turek and Loana, they actually told me Kalshi started as a crypto company in YC. Apparently, if you go on the YC website from the very first period of them applying,
they were going to build a decentralized platform. They kind of looked at Augur,
I think as some inspiration, but then they decided to go the regulated route because
they felt like it would be the part that they could actually get like product market fit with
most um and so the the ambition is to just build the largest exchange on the planet and like crypto
is um going to be existential to that just like it is for like robert hood stripe and coinbase
uh and so yeah i want to make sure that we were like inside of Cauchy itself,
like we actually have like a bunch of crypto people that are like quite notable, but they're
kind of like under the wraps and we like still haven't announced yet. And everyone's really,
really like excited about crypto and the space, like, surprisingly, a big amount of people in the
company also trade shitcoins for fun, which is kind of interesting. So yeah, I think we want to
build into crypto in the right way. And it could be a really big part of the company. It's not just
a silo. Everything that I'm doing is going to be fused into like the core
engineering roadmap of the company.
And I think it's going to be like probably a bigger, bigger pot of Kaoshi than it is
like sort of the other fintech companies in the space where it's like just one component.
When you were saying it's cross-chain or chain agnostic, you mentioned that was possible
because it's off-chain.
Interested if you could expand on that a little more.
Yeah.
I mean, I think there are one of my biggest priorities
is to lead the push to on-chain as well.
So there are many parts of the product that we could put on-chain
that we could put on chain or like interface with on chain.
or interface with on-chain.
And so right now, like if you want to build a regulated exchange,
you need like a clearinghouse.
It's like kind of due to like the global financial crisis and stuff.
So you need a regulated clearinghouse.
And so basically a lot of the existing infrastructure
required to build something huge is like has to be off chain um
so that's like kind of the the place to start if you want to um win over normies and stuff like
that's just like the way it is like we we ideally want um a future where everything is on chain on
blockchain rails i think it's by far the most superior design for building open finance.
But regulation-wise, we're not there yet.
And we have to work within the bounds if we want to win over as many users as possible
in this world.
And so, yeah, I think there are a ton of creative ways that we're going to have people build
on top of Kaoshi on chain and be like be able to sort of have crypto users into
like use Kalshi natively. And so like, I think you guys should stay like in the loop. And I'm
very excited for what's coming out over the next few weeks. So Speck, are you convinced there? i thought this was a crypto space
i guess yeah didn't you hear that calci is integrating crypto yo that's some bullshit
bro as a as their main well who said that who said that i think we just have another round of
all right tell us ch us no no no let's
hear it why is it bullshit yeah okay i mean it's like a centralized exchange it's not even on chain
you got a kyc and then they're saying like yo we're gonna we're gonna like do like crypto like
super nebulous like what does that even mean bro like did you hear he said ftx i think i heard that
yeah bro i i just feel like it's like not like i feel like this is just like getting like um
goodwill type shit you know it's not like actual yeah i mean what do you think about that i i know
where you're coming from and like as someone who's like used decentralized exchanges more than any like centralized exchange in my lifetime,
I know exactly where you're coming from.
I think the way I think about it is like, do you want to build Coinbase or do you want to build Uniswap?
I think Coinbase has done like markedly more for the crypto space and moving the space forward.
Bro, okay, I'm gonna stop you there bro uniswap has
done a hundred percent i i mean brian's brian's dope like coinbase is dope but like like if we
didn't have amms like none of the salon salon shit would work but like like base has done nothing for
the culture bro do you know a single person who's his base no like i'm not talking about base i'm
talking about coinbase i've never i'm gonna be real i've never used coinbase in my life so like i don't i don't really care about coinbase yeah
but chris you're the minority there i use coinbase i get what john's saying like it is a good
business yes uniswap's good i like i get what he's saying i'm just saying like just to keep it a buck
um it's a different approach but what's so bad about it chris uh like do you feel like there can only
be one winner between polymarket and uh and calci or do you think both can win what's your honest
take well i think like decentralized prediction markets are going to win i think polymarket is
going to be a part of that i think what we're about to release is going to be a part of that
but uh yeah i think like like yeah you're getting fees because you
know like the like it's like a gated it's like a walled garden right like you have to go in you
have to kyc you get trading fees but then like they control the outcome right and then they
control the entire order book so it's like you have to like trust that Kalshi knows the truth, right? But it's like, I feel like, like, I don't know why, like, we should trust like this
random corporation that doesn't have the best track record to like be correct about market.
You know what I mean?
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, firstly, I think you just have to look at the numbers when it comes to, like, Coinbase and Uniswap.
And, like, what Coinbase has done for, like, the regulatory landscape in opening up crypto to actual users than Uniswap.
Like, it's very, very clear that Coinbase has done, like, way, way more for the crypto space and, like, moving the space forward than Uniswap.
And this is coming from someone who, like, trades on chain the most.
It's, like, it's, like, like...
But, I mean, like i i respect that opinion
but like other than just like on ramping people like what has like coinbase made that has like
actually changed the like culture like coinbase didn't make m'lady coinbase didn't make pump dot
fun coinbase didn't make like i can't actually name a single thing that
coinbase made that i've like ever used and fuck with like you know what i mean i i feel like if
you're like a millennial like eth user like maybe but it feels like they i think people get it
confused they've leveraged the regulatory you know entrenchment as an advantage more than uh
you know and that benefit for everyone it's more than a, you know, a net benefit
for everyone. It's a huge advantage to their business that they have these relationships
in government. And they, it might be easy to actually say that they're responsible for,
for more regulation and for things to be slower than, than if they weren't involved. And so John,
I don't know, like, are you saying that you guys are going to have more regulatory pull than Coinbase?
What is the unique value pop here?
Yeah, I'm also going to add, I don't know why the fuck Coinbase is doing military parades, bro.
I feel like, why is my crypto wallet doing a military parade?
You know what I mean?
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
Are you anti-military, bro?
I wouldn't think about it as regulatory entrenchment at all.
I think it's actually quite the opposite.
Coinbase and Cauchy, Coinbase got sued by the SEC.
Cauchy was banned by the CFTC for years.
These guys fought back and sued the SEC and the CFTC, and they both won.
They fought for us as an industry, to make crypto actually palatable
to and usable by the rest of the world and legal. And I think they've made huge strides
in doing that. If they didn't do that... So did Tornado Cash.
Crypto would just remain a niche thing on the that like you can only use via a VPN. And so,
you know, I think I largely disagree with that statement, but on culture wise, I think,
you know, like, yeah, I love like sort of the crypto culture that's like why I'm staying in
on CT for all these years. I think you're totally right that Coinbase is kind of like a bit more boomer,
I would say, in terms of taste than like, you know, your average like on-chain product. And like,
that's not necessarily something that is like, is like this, like guaranteed when it comes to being
like coming regulated. Like at Calci, like I i'm gonna push the company uh i think we we already are like sort of a lot a lot younger in terms of
um people at the company plus like everyone's like in the trenches um what's the average age
i don't know the average age because there's like 50 people would have to do the math on that but
like well there's a lot of people who sit around me that are like 25, 26 years old.
Oh, they're unks.
Like the head of operations at Kappa.
I'm 23 years old like me.
Yo, chill, chill.
We got some more people here on stage.
Eclectic group.
We got Vinny.
Welcome up.
And Ollie.
You guys wanted to chime in?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a question on Kelsey and just looking at broader markets.
What's the strategy, John, on scaling trading volume outside of like retail participants. Like if you look at market makers
for a wide swath of markets, how can you have them kind of hedge like tail risk
and skew on events that are outside of like,
say like politics or like a fixed timeline
where that finishes like Taylor Swift
getting engaged today, for example.
Yeah.
So I think like, well, one, I'm not sure if this is announced yet, so I don't know if
I'll get in trouble, but basically like we're going to be doing like, I don't even know
if I can say this, but basically like there are ways to incentivize people to market make
on the platform that aren't like just like these Wall Street market makers.
It's more like they're, you know,
your mom and pop shop, like average like pro user
who can come in and like, you know,
they can run their own quantitative strategies
and be paid for it.
So I think it's like democratizing the ability to market make
and like get good rebatesates on it like it spreads
um and so that's probably the thing i'd say um it is like hard harder to market make these
long-term markets than like your average like you know cpi or bitcoin price market though for sure
yo i see gold up here and i was scrolling through your profile
are you with the the football.fun stuff i saw that is that yo yo yo um yeah i mean obviously
i'm not involved in the team or anything i'm just someone who's been on the platform for a while
i've been using it like i think it's been a week since they started uh like uh like the
yo so then i have to ask i have to ask you
then do you feel like we're late like i haven't tapped in yet obviously seeing it my immediate
reaction is like i'm so late fuck this shit i'm gonna buy the top kill myself uh but what what's
your take on the on boots on the ground yeah i mean not at all i mean we had this, like, sort of toppy, like, atmosphere, like, a few days ago, where, like, it hit, it went from, like, 40 mil market cap for the entire players to about, like, 140 in, like, less than 24 hours, which is just insane.
And obviously, that was, like, kind of the top, and it's gone down to, like, 65-ish right now.
like 65 ish right now um it might be a bit like higher or lower at the moment but i think right
now when there was a bit of fud is to uh with ip and like uh player licensing but the team cleared
that up pretty well i think right now what was the drama what was what happened wait wait what
happened the drama was just people saying that yeah there's gonna be lawsuits if this thing picks up
people and players and like clubs are gonna be saying that yeah there's going to be lawsuits if this thing picks up people and
players and like clubs are going to be saying that okay wait a minute like we're not being paid to be
on this platform like why why the hell do you do you guys uh have us on this platform but they
cleared it up because they've consulted with lawyers previously employed by fifa and uh they
bought the optor rights package which is like
a package used very commonly for this sort of stuff and they don't have official club badges
or club kits so it's not like 100 affiliated so i felt like they dealt with that fud pretty well
and now you know because we've seen the the games on the weekend have now finished and um
the previous tournament just finished.
So now like people are buying more players ahead of the next round of games.
Question.
This is my trader brain like just thinking about it.
Do you think there's incoming exit liquidity?
Like are they about to go mainstream?
Do they have plans to do that?
Or is it hoping like just for the crypto bros to trade it?
No, I think they. Okay, so i've obviously been in crypto for a while yeah and i think uh i'm very plugged into football twitter as well um i'm a massive football or as you guys
all right talk to me yeah yeah yeah so i'm a massive fan and i feel like a product like this
is perfect to onboard the football Twitter side of things,
because I know there are a ton of people on football Twitter, you know, these massive accounts.
Yeah, they have massive pull and massive reach.
But for example, yeah, like, I don't know if they're going to do this, but I feel like if
football.fun offered to pay some of these top football Twitter influencers, like, I don't know,
Trey, Janty, a couple of these guys um i don't know trey janty a
couple of these guys i don't know how much it would cost to get partnerships with them but i
feel like that could pull in like a crap ton of users and obviously they powered by privy as well
so it's very easy is it actually fun or what like you're a soccer football fan like uh i'm like a
mediocre fan like i'm not super into it but i'll watch big games uh yeah what's
what's the game exactly like is it gonna be fun for that audience it's very fun like i've literally
been enjoying it so much like it's kind of like if you're someone with an eager um eye for football
you know which players are good you know which players are uh undervalued like laminia mall is
the most expensive player on the platform at the moment if
you know 17 year old maybe he's 18 now and uh basically the way you do it is you have to buy
these shares for players and when the tournaments come basically the top five players in each
position get tournament points and when you get tournament points you get to rip open packs so if
you if any of you have ever played like fifa back in the day like ultimate team there was packs there's packs in this and you
can open different packs you get like a pack allocation um based on your rep system and your
skill points um and they have a really cool like anti-geet mechanism in this thing as well where
there's a high like there's a higher fee um in
some cases to sell your players and your reputation goes down if you're more of an extractive player
who sells more than they buy which means that limits like your ability to buy players when
their player drops so one of the things i'll talk about here is every few days at 5pm UTC, they do new player waves,
where there are 10 players who, I think it's 10, 10 players who drop for 0.0125, I believe gold,
and gold is pegged to USDC. So that'd be 0.0125 gold per share of the player.
And like, for example, I'll give you an example here. So
when Michael Olise dropped for 0.0125, he did like a 10x to 0.1, which means if you had bought
like 100 shares, it would have done a 10x. So 100 shares would now be like worth 10 more so if you put in 100 bucks into at least say you
would have gotten an insta like a thousand dollars on that basically um now obviously it's kind of
tough to snipe these pairs you got to be how different is it from like just trading meme
coins like what how different is it well it's different because it's it's tied to real player
performance it's not like you, you don't need a community
to rally around certain players or whatever.
It's like, I'll give you an example, yeah.
So Lomenia Miles, obviously, he's an incredible player.
And he performs well.
He gets you good tournament points
based on his goals and overall performance.
So he is more likely to get you enough tournament points
to open packs
and stuff for example which is how you increase your valuation of your squad overall um so in that
sense the game here the the best thing about it i find the most fun is that there are multiple
different strategies so you can go for arbitrage where if there's a player in a game i think we're
getting too technical now for people that aren't playing but i think i understand it my i'll check it out my honest
take my honest take is it seems a little complicated do you really get it frank i don't know if you
do i feel like this is a genius i actually think that it's a genius idea and is probably
like a new i was actually going to do something similar to this i feel like it's it's like the crypto version of like sports trading cards type shit or like fantasy football
and it's yeah it sounds like fantasy to be honest yeah but then there's been like crypto fantasy
games before like so rare uh was one like real nba all this stuff and it had like a it popped
off but it had like a ceiling to it.
Also, I just hate base.
I'm not going to lie.
So it's tough.
Yo, base, base, Frank.
But yo, yeah, Frank,
I wanted to say one more thing about it.
So one of the best, most fun things about it is that if you're someone who's into football
and you find players who are like undervalued,
you know players are really good performers.
I'll give an example.
I know Scott McTominay is a very good player. He won player of the seat player of the season
He's filling his bags right now. It's crazy. No, I'm not bro. I don't need to show my bags. He's gonna go crazy
What's his market cap like 200 bucks?
No, well, they don't really show you the player market caps, but McTominay right now is like, what, like 0.137, which is super cheap, considered he was player of the season in the Serie A last season.
So basically, if you watch football with your eyes...
Dude, I'm not going to lie. As you're saying this, Gold, as you're saying this, I'm thinking like, fuck, I definitely should not play this game.
thinking like fuck i definitely should not play this game like i like i know i feel lamine is good
i know he's pretty good like um but yeah i know holland's good but i mean beyond that i sound
it's not like i'm the el bro i'm not gonna lie dude well dude dude look if you ever do want to
hop on if anyone on here wants to hop on and you don't know much about soccer or football just hit
me up and i can sort of help um but one thing i do want to say all right all right i think we got
it i think i think i've learned everything about football fun i could right now i don't think i
can learn anymore yeah just one thing though um i'm pretty sure the marketing guy of football
that fun did say that early next year there's gonna be one for like American football that they're gonna launch
so I think that might be more up your guys I'm gonna check in next year. I'm gonna check in next year. All right, thanks
Okay
I brought some new people up but uh, yeah, let's go King fight. see you with your hand raised dude freaking first of all what up i know nobody's playing this game on base it sounds like it's gonna be no one's playing this
dude european mfers are like oh we love football we love it's not even the real football the
majority of crypto money is coming from america so if you want it to actually take off it's got
to be a sport we like dude plain and simple that's as
high as it's getting dude that 120 market cap we'll be surprised if it even gets half that ever
again dude it's over it's over i can't believe you let gold shield those bags for no i was trying
to find a way dude honestly i'm new to this man you know my new bio i'm a spaces host but i'm i'm
it's been a second but yeah, yeah, that was ass.
I mean, it just made it sound like, dude, I really should not play this game.
Anyway, I see Plum with his hand raised.
Go, go, go.
And then Daniel.
Hey, I appreciate y'all letting me come speak.
I'm not going to take too much of your time.
Just talking about prediction markets and things like that.
I hope y'all don't mind me shilling this,
but it's a prediction platform called Nostra.
I removed it in my bag.
Dude, this is crazy.
I'm not going to lie.
How much does it cost for a slot like that?
Well, now you just gave me a business idea.
My next vibe coding project.
That would be pretty sick, right?
Like ads, that might be the one.
Just like live
like live sell ads for spaces um steve let's do with your hand raised yo what up frank long time
um first i joined when uh you guys were talking um on coinbase not not necessarily agree with the take but that's neither here or there before i um
how do you say kalashi how do you say it you guys gotta fix this john this is a problem
what how she yeah i know i know you guys gotta do like a whole like uh like a whole marketing
campaign on how you say it that could be you need some real creative motherfuckers in the room for
that yeah what does the name even mean?
What is that shit?
What's a cow sheet?
That's probably the biggest problem in the company right now, honestly.
I love to connect you guys because Polymarket just offered my brother a bag for sports betting
because I know they're entering the market in October.
Side note, this is my show.
Yo, they're doing deals?
Yeah, no, they're entering the uh mark in october
my brother's a big sports betting influencer works at friday beers and they uh poly markets
like in his dms but just thought i'd throw that away and then king fudge sick pfp bro
all right all right all right um yeah john so you said you said you think it's the biggest
problem in the company can you expand on that yeah yeah i was i was kidding but like wait how she means i didn't know what it means i thought
it was like a random name but it actually means like everything in arabic because like we're
trying to financialize everything uh so you're political now that's deep no that's deep that's
good definitely boys arabic is crazy i see daniel with his uh hand raised what's up man hey guys uh thanks for
letting me speak um i've been also hearing for a while and then someone asked before like was there
a is there a room for besides calci and polymarket for any other friction markets i i kind of wanted
to expand on that as well
all right make it quick yeah go go tell us yeah definitely um calc is doing good with the regular financial rails polymarket all it's on chain um has liquidity brings a lot of volume it's og
but other prediction markets unless there's a like very good uniqueness that's different that
there's no reason for me to go to like polymarket or calc like there's a like very good uniqueness that's different that there's no reason for me
to go to like polymarket or koushi like there's like some questions that you should think about
like what unique value proposition so what would they be what would the unique values be
well i can tell you about our platform which is called big market so prediction prediction
markets mostly is about dude that's a sneaky show man that's crazy
but go go you have to make it really fast you have if you're going to show you have to make it
so fast sure so it's simply a prediction market is a forecasting future belief market is uh betting
backing your opinions and belief with your money so it it's more like subjective markets. So even last year, there was a big drama on Twitter
about will Israel invade Gaza Strip?
Like that went like crazy controversial in Polymarket
because people didn't know how to define invasion.
What is invasion?
And then they had a problem with the settling.
What does it mean to invade?
And stuff like that, you have to define each thing clearly and then they had a problem with the settling what is it what does it mean to invade and stuff
like that you have to define each thing clearly and it brings a lot of controversy on settlements
and most of the settlements are actually done on centralized way yeah but but not really like not
all the time it's like what you're describing maybe happens one time out of like a thousand
times uh that issue actually it can happen more often than but anyways my point is
that for belief market you can ask about questions like oh ilan musk versus trump
or like usa versus china or you know something like oh deep sick versus chad gpt what about
what about when you stop talking can i bet on that yeah that's good no frank yo frank frank i had a crazy idea for like a
like a different prediction market imagine a prediction market called black market and you
could just bet on everything fucking illegal and like super degenerate like it was prediction
markets for like illegal trade counterculture like real fucking ratchet shit you call a black
market i don't know that was like a late night thought i dropped it in here i just thought of it remember wow that's a that's a thought that is a thought it's one of
them yeah how many dudes is bonnie blue gonna get fucked yes yes there you go you got me
i mean john have you thought about anyone that's tried to go like activist i think of like the
louisiana state prison like are people
gonna go out and directly like hunt these people down and buy yes like that's that's one of the
things i always think about yeah dude i feel like that's that's like one sort of aspect of
prediction markets that could you know be unexpected is like people actually influencing events so i think we try to avoid those types of markets at cal sheet but um you know you guys are
like not allowed to participate in any conflict markets if i'm correct right like augur back in
the day was like the first prediction market in 2018 um they was like a crypto one they basically
got shut down because it was like permissionless.
And then people started launching assassination markets and stuff.
So I think it's, yeah, there needs to be.
Black market.
Because like with great power comes great responsibility, blah, blah, blah.
John, I'm just curious because you're the one that's super fucking like bullish on this shit.
Like what do you have fun trading?
Because I look at these platforms and I literally have no idea which one like intrigues me
some of them i'm like oh dude that's like is taylor swift getting married next year bro i'm
not trying to wait like a year for a fucking trade like what what is like the fun one so that i can
do more volume on it well i mentioned the um like dimensions markets before, looking at speeches and what are they
going to say? And there's some really out there creative shit, like the transgender mice one that
I talked about with the Trump state of the UN address before. So that's really live. I think
we're going to try to lean into more high frequency live stuff like that um but another thing that i think is cool for crypto people is
like pre-markets so you know where can you speculate on mega eth and monad right now like
there's not really a venue for that because they don't have a token um so like why because we can
make a market for speculating on everything then like prediction markets is going to be the venue
where you kind of capture upside in or like downside in
projects uh before they launch and it can be about like metrics or like when they launch um what the
first day token valve is going to be like how how long will it take to fill the pump ICO um you know
people were saying like it'll take a few hours you'll say it'll take a few seconds it was like
12 minutes and um that was like super interesting just that would have been super interesting to
see in real time when like all the centralized exchanges started fucking up the films. So those types of
markets could be interesting. And yeah, my job is to like kind of make those come to life. So
please hit me up with any market ideas. John, I have a quick one. I was thinking about this today.
Could you imagine if someone like put up like a live stream camera at a stop sign?
Because this is not underestimating the level of degeneracy that exists on the internet.
You put a live stream on a stop sign, you put a prediction market on how many people
are running a stop sign in a day and just let people bet on it 24-7, 365.
I feel like you could just rip that 100 times over in so many different ways.
I don't know. I was thinking about that today, and I just thought I'd drop it.
I don't know if it was relative.
Because it's just super degenerate, and it's real time, and it happens every day.
So just thought I'd get your thoughts.
Can you circle back on hyperp integration at some point?
Do you want me to make that market so you can just keep roundabouting the same stop sign
and fucking blossom through it? I mean no no no no you got to pick somewhere like totally random
like totally random no one knows like not outside your house yeah no no no no no i'm not trying to
rig a market if you pick somewhere you can't see any buildings it's just a stop sign looking down
the ground and you know what if someone finds it and rigs it, like, you'll see a bump in the market, like pitchers throwing balls into the dirt. You'll get it. So I just thought it's just an interesting concept. It's not that exact one, but I don't know. It's just, I thought it was funny. And also, not really that bad of an idea.
Oh yeah
Alright Hash
These hyperliquid guys man
I want to understand
Like
How he's thinking about
How she integrating with
HIP3 or
Is it something that's going to be very
Difficult for you guys because of your
CFTC regulation
Like I have trouble Bal balancing those two things and I
want to hear how you're thinking about it a little bit yeah look on the CFTC regulated stuff like
I think the best way to think about that is like it's just the best foundation for the exchange
and then like there's a ton of stuff that we can build on top of it that are more creative um and so for example like with the hip3 stuff that actually requires no work
from my end technically but like obviously i'm going to help whatever team that wants to build
that um all you need is like an oracle that listens to cowship prices for like it's most
liquid market that you want to build on and then you can have like like traders that just freely arb between the two um and yeah i
think it could be an interesting application for leverage um and it's probably like one of a dozen
things that you can build on top of cash but you you guys would just act as an oracle layer then
like your your input would only be the oracle and like a place to arb so that the market stay like
right like a spot arb okay cool
thank you that was kind of that was the only thing i popped up for i was just curious around that
i'm happy man happy that's great and so wait john what so for example if it was trump versus kamala
and it was a hip three uh market right would it would it be like, so the chart would trade
between zero and one, and then you could like long
or short at like 55 cents or 55, whatever.
Like, how does it like, how is the experience work
like for a user?
How different is it from trading
like existing kind of markets on Cal sheet?
So I think it could feel exactly like trading
a prediction market on Cal sheet, but with
leverage like hip three is very customizable.
You can hard fix the Oracle to be within a certain range, like zero to a hundred.
And you can change the funding rates that they're like, depends on like volume or like
time weighted and stuff like that. Maybe you increase funding rates or decrease funding rates as you get closer to the actual election decision where like things can spike much easier.
So you don't want to get like blasted.
But the interface could also be kind of interesting where it's like a combination of perps plus prediction markets.
So on prediction market, you'd see, maybe you'd have a comment section,
maybe you'd have like the resolution criteria.
And then like on the perp side,
you can see like the funding rates
and like the order book and the leverage sliders
and like margin and stuff like that.
So yeah, it'd be kind of like a very net new novel
exploration of the product that could be big.
So John, on volume,
I tried to look up and validate your claim that you guys have higher volume
now than the election.
I could only see a one day Jason a volume.
Is there anywhere else I can see the data that proves you guys are at your
highest volume?
Yeah, the market data Jason stuff stuff like you can kind of um I think I'll try to find some like dashboards um or and
specifically what is the claim is it there are more markets open than the election or there's
actually more volume traded daily uh I think like hey I don't want to give like a specific claim because
my reference is like, I saw an article about how Berkshire markets were kind of like reaching
all-time highs, like at all-time highs again recently. And I haven't dug into the data myself.
I can chime in on this. Hey, respect for saying that.
Hey, John, respect for saying that.
Yeah, go for it.
Chime in.
Yeah, honestly.
But I'm pretty sure usage generally is at all-time highs.
I mean, for example...
Wouldn't you guys have a big fucking sign in the office saying this is how much volume
was done in the last 24 hours?
I'm not in the office at the moment.
I'm in Sydney, man man i have to fucking change my
visa and shit so i mean i don't know what the fuck oh you're not in dc no i'm i'm in australia yeah
i see fun with your hand raised what's up man hey man so that was gonna expect freaking, dude, because I feel like there's no no way that these things are actually pulling in volume.
These just are it just sounds like if we're trying to cater to to degenerate gamblers, dude.
It's just kind of the reality that I see all these constant like, oh, prediction market, prediction market going on but who cares apart from after the election
does anybody care to gamble and guess on like when taylor swift is actually getting engaged like
what are actual things like rasmir asked and then never even got an answer what's something quick
that that would be a quick flip something that would trade and like keep attention i don't i
don't get it yeah i mean sorry yeah i think it
comes to like specific cultural events are big um like for example the pump ico i think would have
done a lot of volume on cal sheet um leading up to it and uh you know there are like a lot of
markets that are frequent when it comes to youlies and weeklies of like Bitcoin and soul and stuff like that.
But doesn't that just cater to this same little group of people that are in this space that you guys are intentionally trying to branch away from? if i could say one thing i just for john because i he's a guest all this stuff is uh man it sounds
like the guy just started his job like a couple days ago so i don't know if he's gonna have all
the answers for everything calci but uh i don't if you don't mind it john like i'll let him keep
asking stuff wow yeah i mean like lowkey i'm like just like you guys i just started
working in critical markets like i've just been kind of like a guy who who's been very interested
in it so can't be like an expert on on it from a couch again like i've just been kind of like a guy who who's been very interested in it so can't be like
an expert on on it from a couch the end like i will be very soon but um yeah i shared a link
called greed.bot um it's kind of like one of the dashboards it's not i wouldn't say it's like
super accurate but it's like probably ballpark right for kaoshi volumes and like kaoshi revenue and um
well i don't know about revenue but um for volumes at least because because of the json data and so yeah what is your revenue now volume i don't know
awesome i see armand with his hand raised what's up man how's it going i have a little bit of
insights uh with these prediction market things.
I mean, you know, the US election is the ceiling.
And there's an insane product market fit for that because the offering was always needed.
And that's where all the growth comes from.
So all this data is really on chain.
You can kind of see it.
But like there's a massive growth for the US election.
It brings a bunch of people to it.
And you'll kind of see like a kind of flat line and like a stair once it'll plummet about like a third or a quarter if you're
lucky we'll stick around right and it'll be kind of like a stair step growth so it's like the
election prediction market it's just super viable information it's super like topical and you'll
notice all this new meta kind of came back because of the new york mayor race and that's why right
so everyone's like oh yeah it was just why, right? So everyone's like, oh yeah, it was just the,
like fucking like, like everyone's supposed to be gone
after like the US election.
Well, it's like, yeah, it was the mayor fucking election
that brought like everyone talking about it like again.
So, I mean, some of the stuff that was talked about
makes sense.
Like it's going to be like mentioned markets
because of high volume.
It's going to be other kind of gimmicks and games
to come up with.
And occasionally there's going to be a market
that's just super viable because it's timely
and it's neat, but it's never going to be as big as the US election, except for sports.
And that's why prediction markets are so valuable because it's a loophole to get into like, loophole is not the right word, but listen, it's in all 50 states, right?
So really, and then the distribution that they're getting with all these new people, you know, they're integrating it.
That's why the numbers might seem higher today.
But these big cultural moments are going to happen every four years and it's going to be with these US elections and that's how you
bring more people on. Everything else is just kind of the close cousin of what that insane
product market fit is. I mean, I think that might be somewhat true. The elections was one of the
biggest events in the world in general.
But like, I think there's clear signs of product market fit that there, that this wasn't just a fad, right?
Like if we're at old time highs again, like since the election, I expected production
markets to rebound like a year or two after the election.
Like I, that was like my base case and it rebounded within like three to four months.
I think that's- Right, but never to the same height.
Like it's not going to be exponential like how it is leading up to the actual US election.
What question for you, Armand?
If you've been trading or what's your take on the trader questions?
Because John wasn't able to answer as well with that.
Me and Razma were asking like, what are the most fun prediction markets to speculate on or trade?
Yeah, so in my experience, it's going to be mentioned markets just because it's fun.
You can interact with it.
It makes the entertainment funner, just like all sports.
When you've been on sports, you want to watch it more seriously, right?
And the best mentioned markets are the Trump mentioned markets because the guy can say fucking anything.
And to that extent, anything Trump-related just does great because's such a this variable and then people are so interested in him um but for that i would say that
there's other cool things that people can do like earnings calls it's a gray area right on what's
allowed there um and then as far as like a dailies go i mean the weather i guess but like that's not
as fun that's like trump shit dude the trump thing is interesting because didn't eric just buy like
a bunch of polymarket today
eric trump oh donald trump jr he bought polymarket right man imagine he starts insider trading on
fucking trump mentions bro holy shit that'd be crazy me care i'm i'm i'm watching dude i'm
watching that's that's crazy coyote yes use your hand raised yo what's good um i talked a little bit about this on thread stream but i just want to say that
like one of my favorite things about predictions markets is i think that they create like a
systemic risk uh for traditional gambling specifically uh casino gambling and more
over sports books and i don't think enough people are talking about the fact that a live betting is like
the biggest, um, segment of sports gambling currently in terms of growth. And additionally,
sports betting makes up 42% of all casino flows, uh, in the United States. Uh, and Calci and
Polymarket have like essentially made a more efficient version of live betting. Um, it's categorically better for the end user in terms of,
edge erosion.
and that's like one of my favorite things about it.
And I feel like it's not really being discussed.
yeah.
well,
with,
I bet on sports,
and I used to do it more often before I fucking put all my net worth on
fucking chain.
But basically the problem with that in my mind is it'll never like, in my mind, is there's billions of dollars invested in fucking DraftKings advertising
on every single sports show, podcast, network.
I think the liquidity doesn't seem as good, in my opinion, Coyote.
I'm curious with the live betting,
because me and Frank were one time live betting at a Lakers game.
And we were like, oh oh we're at the game so like can we can we get into the trade like before it's on tv right and it's like I know these um well I know the I don't fan duel and all these
people they actually pause the the trading and you can only trade live on like during a timeout
for example but polymarket doesn't do
that and and cal she doesn't do that so coyote like since you've done it on on prediction markets
i'm curious like your take on that like i think that okay i'm gonna use like a really good
comparison right so people said that like i i think that your your take is valid on about the
fact that like these are these are mega corporate giants with like billions and billions of dollars
backing them like for advertising marketing player, like all those types of things, right?
But people said the same thing about Reubat and Steak, right?
They're like, nobody's ever, Vegas will never fall.
Nobody's going to stop going to the casino in person.
And then they realized, oh, we can offer slots at 98 RTP instead of the 92 in in-person casinos
because we have no overhead.
Now Steak does $100 billion in volume a year and Las Vegas Sands is limit down on the fucking
NASDAQ.
Okay. So I would say that the, the live betting prop, it's, it's, it's a categorically different user experience, right?
So I'll give an example. FanDuel voided $1.8 million in parlays three weeks ago because they have a clause in their betting contracts that says highly tailed parlays can be
voided right that can never happen on polymarket or calci it's a permissionless market right um
additionally there is so much fucking vig in live betting it's actually almost a scam it should be
illegal the juice is four to seven times as much as a pre-market bet that doesn't exist on polymarket
and calci the market
is always efficient there is no juice it's player versus player sure there can be like nefarious
market makers and that kind of thing there will be issues with extraction but like this product's
like hyper financializes and it like creates a zero to one in so many different industries it
like actually makes me shit myself a little bit okay i, I'm sorry for ranting. I do want to chime in, and all of those points are good points,
but shouldn't that warn us of what is to come on the regulatory side of things?
It's different comparing steak to a casino to polymarket.
If all of this risk is on the line,
it comes down to who has more people in washington dc yeah and so like that's
like what the strategic edge is here right in that gambling historically has been the largest like
cabal conglomerate in the history of the united states vegas was started by the mafia to launder
money that's like exactly how it was created right and the way that they've kept all these
people out like from a regulatory perspective is that all gambling licenses are created and dispersed through lobbying. Right.
But these are CFCTC regulated entities. And so they can essentially tell like all gambling
regulators to fuck off because the CFCTC trumps it. It's not, um, it's not an edge game. Right.
And so like, they don't fall under those recs. So I don't know if that exactly answers your question,
but I think that this is going to fall more under the market's regulatory framework
than the gambling framework.
At least that's...
Coyote, but doesn't somebody have to be live betting the other side of it?
Or who's funding that?
Because obviously Calshi wouldn't fund the complete other side
if you're live betting, right? So you have to have yeah no no i see exactly what you're saying and i can
clarify on that point right so it it works similar to an amm and that there's like um stagnant
liquidity like in in these protocols that are like uh like liquidity providers on chain right
so like when you see people do like one-sided pools on meteora um for for buying or
selling or two-sided pools that have sol and um the the native token like that's an example of
somewhat kind of how it happens on polymarket and kalshi except that's like one of the main issues
right is that liquidity is super thin think about like trading a pump fund token that's at like 250k
but only has 5k in liquidity right like that that's like one of the the hard
things to happen and so there always is somebody on the other side just the amount that you're
gonna damn that's a bar that's a bar that's crazy yeah no no that's exactly what like like where
we're at right now right it's like we have this like really cool product but like there's not
sufficient liquidity to make it like super powerful and useful yet and so yeah does that answer maybe they gotta put it on a
bonding curve like that's a crazy but like okay bro so i'm i'm not up here to shill but like there
are fucking teams that are actually doing that right now like flipper is a good example of
somebody who is not only building like uh the like the the defy layer for prediction markets
but like they're also building a bonding curve am i don't know how that's going to work it's going to be like super difficult with like disputes and settlements and
like well i think what the bonding curve solves is uh it could be virtual liquidity so so you
could basically have it like like a normal order book right like it doesn't need to have as much
uh yeah it doesn't need the full liquidity just be like on a database until it hits a certain
point because i what you
said makes a lot of sense of what's annoying to trade with some of these is if it's slipping up
and down like crazy if it's like a small thing um that's just never fun yeah so like yeah a good
example of this is like the con like do you remember when there was like props on like
whether or not kanya would launch token yeah so like at one point like i i ripped like
my first polymarket trade ever was like will kanya launch token yes i lost the bet la-di-da
because it was like on a time frame but i just aped 15k into the market like not knowing
about about this whole concept right and like was immediately slipped 70 and i think that like that
is like a huge issue with like where
prediction markets stand right now is they're impossible to use. Like I think I pointed out
to you specifically, Frank, like the, the head of on chain at Gemini the other day, like accidentally
sent the wrong USDC on Polygon when trying to use the polymarket, uh, prop and just got completely
bricked. And so I think that that's like what's really cool what's
going on in the eco right now is like like i said we have this super powerful product but it's really
difficult to use there's a ton of friction involved and nobody really fucking understands
this yet but we're getting there and that's what's fucking cool what are the solutions to fix the
liquidity because that's why i personally personally don't really trade on them.
And Coyote, I know as a user, I'm curious what you think about it.
Yeah.
So that stuff, I think I'm going to defer to John there
because that's where things get a little bit better.
Before we go to John, Coyote, I have a really specific question for you.
Do you think it's EV or not to be spending time
looking at prediction markets
right now because you're also a prolific you know people that don't know like slana trader
i like coyote a lot all this stuff um what's your take on the evie of of trading meme coins right
now versus prediction markets for if you're trying to spend your time um i think that if i was
somebody who was trying to spin up like a super low port right now, like the only thing I would be spending time on is prediction markets.
I think for somebody with like a lot of size, but probably something like more in like our range, it's still a little bit too illiquid.
But I think that from like an edge in efficiency there, it's unbelievably inefficient.
And like you can just go scroll
through like polymarket PNLs. Like there's a lot of people on polymarket that have made
200, 300, 400,000 just chipping away, like at like two to 10 K bets, you know? And, and obviously
like some of these people have edge in certain markets. Like I know that there are people who
are professionally trading, um, like actor awards. Like there are people who like take like the Grammys and the Tonys and all those things
super seriously.
So I think the edge can be a little bit more specific than on chain, but in terms of like
how efficient the market is, it reminds me of what Solana was like in 2022.
Holy fuck.
All right.
Well, that clip that on God.
And I just want to say like, help us one step further though. Like, that, clip that on God. And I just want to say like.
Wait, Coyote, help us one step further though.
Like, okay, I go on Polymarket. What fucking, or I go on CalShe.
What fucking markets should I look for?
Like, what's like the good one to find edge or have fun trading?
I mean, I think it really depends on like, like who you are person specifically.
like who you are person specifically right and that like a lot a lot of people are able to like
Right.
become profitable traders on things that they're just legitimately interested in like the thing
that like i i rattled off like about the actors and stuff like my friend who i know who has done
that profitably is like a kid who was just like a fucking theater junkie all growing up total nerd and he's trading on like no size like 25 50 75 bets you know but like that's just something that
he's like super interested in and also like there's not a lot of people who are subject matter experts
there right but there are tons of people who love to gamble and like that's like what's kind of the
greatest thing about it right is there are people who are going to willingly play in your arena because they simply just want to
bet on something. Right. It was a good way to get started. Oh, sorry. No, no, no, no. But I'm
saying, but now like we've like opened this up to like, where like, like financialization and
markets used to be like very narrow, like narrow products, right?
That only like people, a certain subsect of people could understand.
Right.
But now people are going to be able to trade everything.
Like I think about it, like, like, like, like Rasmus, I know you and like thread and them
are like pretty big music junkies.
Right.
Like, like, like I could see this like being applied to like investing in SoundCloud rappers.
Like, like I could see this like being applied to like investing in SoundCloud rappers.
Like, like, like, like, like think about like all of the things that could come from just
music and prediction markets.
Like stream over unders would be cool.
Like that's exactly what I'm saying.
Right.
That's actually kind of fire.
Yeah.
Monthly listeners.
Yeah.
And think about how that like drives productivity in the music industry.
Right.
And that like, if there's money on the line for monthly streamer over-unders or like amount of concurrent twitch stream viewers right if there's
money on the line you're gonna want to make sure that data is verifiable and fucking accurate and
all this botting is gonna stop like like i do blowing my mind right now bro bro frank google futark. It's the best form of government. There's a team doing it right now called the Meta now
They created a small food Tarky. I'm not advising you buy the token
I don't own it, but I think it's a super interesting concept and that through Tarkies are a form of government
That determines that the most altruistic
outcome for society will always be determined by a market and I'm a
Huge huge believer in that damn coyote that's crazy no just the idea of like that being the forcing function for data to get
verified more verified if the markets get big enough the forces should move that is crazy wow
but at scale doesn't all of that data have to exist on
chain because there's no way that you can handle such a volume and variety of of dispute resolutions
once again not my wheelhouse i there's somebody here who's like i'm just a game theory guy like
i don't know anything about yeah it's like whatever the first tipping point is i think
like whatever the first one is,
it'll probably be a niche where that's easier to do than, than something else.
But I'm pretty pilled now.
Like it makes sense actually.
Like for the monthly listeners thing is crazy.
Cause I am like, I'm my favorite artist.
So I'm a song.
Like, you know, I listen to a lot of new artists all the time and I definitely am doing that
mental math in my head sometimes of, Oh, I guy's gonna get big etc um but yeah like like we mentioned the whole issue is
there's not enough counterparties right now like uh there's not enough uh you know people on the
other side of the trade for a lot of this stuff so that i think is the hurdle but you're making
a pretty compelling point like the incentives make sense And I think to like a certain extent, like as tooling and products come that are like built on top of these sort of like existing underlying products.
I think that generally in most markets that has been kind of like the key to liquidity, right?
Like, like when like the NASDAQ went virtual, for example, like that was when like penny, like penny stocks blew up.
Right.
It was because all of a sudden like these things had like passive liquidity and then
like previously were incredibly illiquid.
And so I just don't know like tangibly how that happens, but like, that's my inclination.
Like base?
Kind of like base.
And that's like coming from somebody who is the biggest base hater ever.
from somebody who is the biggest bass hater ever.
Okay, dude.
Thank you, man.
That was awesome.
I feel like I learned a lot there.
Yeah, I'll shut the fuck up now.
No, you're good.
You're good.
I brought Ollie up.
I said I was going to let him talk,
so go for it.
Yo, what's up, Frank?
I've been following your gym content on IG lately, man.
You're fucking killing it.
Keep it up, bro.
We're getting there.
We're getting there.
He's setting up a show.
Is that true?
The gym riz would be crazy for that.
What's Frank's weight going to be in two months, right?
That's prediction market. Well, what are you working on is it prediction market related
uh no yeah i just wanted to uh just move on topics just had like a general question on
prediction markets for john uh more broadly was like i think a big thing about prediction
markets like polymarket or clash is gonna be uh like being able to like build on top of them essentially.
So like my question was like as like a solo dev what's the difference between like building on
top of Polymarket versus like building on top of Kalash just because of like how they're
like just how they're built on the back end. Just like decentralized versus centralized and all that stuff.
Yeah, sure.
Honestly, I think like building on top of Kaoshi might be easier than like building something
on chain.
Like for example, like building stuff on salon is actually like kind of hard.
Like genuinely like soul scans a bitch, like building in in rust like talk to any like solid dev um
it's like a fucking terrible experience there's like apis and stks and stuff like that in the
web2 world they're like really easy to build on top of um and you know it's ultimately like
blockchains are the same thing like hyper liquid you know a few months ago had four like four nodes
right like it was basically a centralized database.
Like it's like the same thing where you're just like posting stuff really fast.
So the API for Kaoshi is like super performant.
It's like what Robinhood and SIG, which is like one of the largest Wall Street market
makers use.
You can build on top of us, get like instantaneous stuff.
There's like a full documentation around it.
And then, you know, we have, we obviously take like stablecoin deposits and stuff. There's a full documentation around it. And then we obviously take stablecoin deposits and stuff.
So I would honestly treat it like building on any other L1, except the developer experience
is a lot better, and it's chain agnostic.
You mean Web2?
What's up?
It sounds like you meant to say it's just like building on web too
um well it's building on web too where it's like a financial market plus like
we have like a lot more on-chain touch points than you know what microsoft is
um i got finn up here what's up man how we doing any thoughts on this or
yeah i was actually i'm so i'm i'm currently kind of more interested less than like myself
participating prediction markets but i'm messing around with uh some of the ai tooling that like
integrates in with like football.fun or like Myriad or others,
which has been kind of an interesting component, which is like playing the kind of side layer on
top, which is like, don't actively participate in the market, but kind of, you know, let something
automate it for you. I suspect does any of that actually work? Yeah. Yeah. It has a, I mean,
it has a higher hit rate than me spending the time. Do you remember that coin on Sol, Scoutly, like back in the day,
where they were AI picks?
Oh, God, maybe?
People in the audience, you know,
there was a thing called Scoutly where it was a prediction market,
like AI website that did AI picks, basically.
And for 12 days in a row, it was like 12 for 12 on all of its picks that it posted.
And then after it got one wrong, I think it basically started to dump and then just eventually went to zero.
But those 12 days were electric.
I was super pill.
I was like, oh, fuck, sports betting is cooked now.
But yeah, that's all I remember from AI tooling with sports betting.
So, Finn, are you one-shotted then?
Should we just address the elephant in the room?
What?
Sounds like if AI has replaced you,
you might be AI.
I mean, you can look at it like that, sure.
I think it's like,
it's interesting though, though, right?
Like, you know, you can sit there all day and spend the time to like arbitrage your prediction
markets, which is like one behavior that you can go down, right?
Which I feel like is like the far end of like the average behavior of like a prediction
mark user.
But like the far right end, like the average person, like if you just gave them a tool
that let them like put in a dollar amount they're willing to leverage markets they're
interested in and then just let it run on its own, like, I don't know that that to me seems like probably the most likely outcome of like
major market participants no but how is there how is there like a winner there
if everyone is using the same ai strategy i mean if everyone uses it of course right like that's
the yeah i mean that's the that's the like the grand scheme of things but the beauty of the
markets we participate in is that tooling doesn't exist or is used across 100 participants i think you're
underestimating the fact that people want to be like super super degenerate like people don't
actually like surprisingly like people go into these friction markets and actually like kind of
want the fucking risk um i don't know if it's necessarily i think that's that's crypto participants no though uh yeah but like
if i'm thinking of like my friend who i'm thinking of like my friend who's putting you know 20 40
50 bets once a week once every other week on just a casual you know sports game right and they're
introduced to this idea of prediction markets yeah but it kills the fun of it right like i i think
it makes sense with trading right like if you're trading and there's some AI layer on top, like, I don't know, fucking Newton Protocol or whatever the fuck, that's honestly probably more, I guess, less with meme points but more with traditional trading.
That makes a lot more sense, right?
But almost if you're entering a gambling state, it might just be me, honest to God, right?
Like, who knows?
But if you're entering a gambling state, you kind of want the risk reward, right?
And if you're taking that away and putting, you're basically giving your chips to another
person.
And that's almost like something that is like counterproductive to the concept of gambling
itself.
I don't know if it would take up mass adoption.
Yo, Finn, you should look into ETFs.
Yo, Speck, I have to, I have to ask you, are you, do you hate AI?
Like I see your takes every so often like
what's your what's your take what's your hot take on ai it seems like you have some opinion thoughts
there oh yeah no i mean i don't want to i think ai is is in a spot right now where it's even more
degenerate than uh this space somehow it's crazy for me to be able to say that as we talk about gambling on autopilot.
But I don't hate AI. I think people are just being retarded and falling for the same grifts
like we did three years ago or four years ago. And there are actually a lot of people that are
insanely delusional about the capabilities of AI. I've insane people in my dms like saying they're gonna come after me because their lm told
them to and uh it is it all just plays back to the vc narrative and framing and uh yeah i think
i think lms are are pretty fucking retarded but there's a lot of shit that they can be applied to
that uh yeah that no one's that the most people aren't building and all
these companies are about to get wiped out yeah i've seen you tweet this before the cursor is
gonna get wiped out and let me just like i'll just use the other end of the argument like
it's a good product it does what you expect it to do people pay for it like why would it get wiped
out well just i mean from a from a business perspective their gross margins were at one
point before they changed pricing negative 500 and that's sitting on top of anthropic who is
you know serving those tokens subsidized that uh you know a negative thousand percent gross margin
and so it's just like not sustainable and then the consumer is benefiting immensely right
now and it's all just going to come to an end soon but see this is where i i don't know if i agree
this is where i don't know if i agree is that uh how do how do we define soon because you could
argue like yeah i agree that the negative margins are bad across the board and that only these
foundation models are making these crazy margins some other stuff or whatever but it can't
just get subsidized forever like can't just get subsidized for a very long time until there's an
ftx yes yeah so i think that's where people are i i like your take a lot that it's really degenerate
maybe the crypto people don't see this as much but the ai early stage stuff is getting like really
gross um really fast like huge numbers um but yeah i
don't know i'm like less doomer i i'm like i think it's gonna i think we're pretty early stage still
with it but you make a lot of good points i don't know
yeah i might be wrong but it's just i've been in silicon valley i've seen these companies and
the bullshit they're slinging
and now the vcs are the ones telling them to sling it so yeah it could be it could get to a point
where the government bails it out and we all bite the bullet uh and the dollar what are going to be
your top signals that's my honest question like oh it was it was a long time ago frank no way for
real what was it then i'm being dead serious i don't know how you don't see that
gpt5 i don't know if you saw the the video but yeah dude those guys they cook to their brains
they've been it's always like cooking recipes it's always like the dumbest shit well it's funny
because the one open-ended question on uh the gpt5 launch it was something about something that i know nothing about um
they asked it about some theorem about how planes have lift if someone knows the actual name you
can tell me but uh it took me like 20 youtube comments to figure out that they got that answer
fucking wrong and it was the one open-ended question that they could have spent months
preparing for and it hallucinated and gave you know question that they could have spent months preparing for
and it hallucinated and gave you know the incorrect answer and so it's just like come on like the show
is coming to an end uh energy is fucked we've we've put all of this investment into energy
uh that will only serve people trying to lobotomize themselves when it was supposed to
automate all of b2b so i don't
know i don't think people's jobs are at risk unfortunately i wish they were i do want ai to
like take everyone's jobs i really do um but yeah i think it's wait spec if you think that ai is
just gonna like but like there's gonna be either a convergence of like one big mega company or
it's just gonna fucking die at some point like in a year from now no of course it's not going to die of course it's not going to
die like i'll say like that it like caps out of a certain level no i think it's just it's the state
of why are none of these companies going public right like these valuations are bullshit it's all
in a black box they're all swapping arr it's really easy to do the diligence on on how big
of a ponzi this is. And,
yeah,
that I look at it more from that lens and, and I got a phone call.
I don't know if you can hear me.
Yeah.
We can hear you now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But people,
people look at it from,
from the lens that I hate AI,
or I think it doesn't work.
Of course,
LMs have come a long ways and,
and,
I'm a believer in the technology.
It's more of a product of VCs fucking it all up.
So you've heard the thing about Google, Facebook,
they were kind of a Ponzi in a way,
because after a while,
like you just every new startup was paying money
to Amazon, Google, Facebook for ads,
all these new businesses.
So that's kind of like a Ponzi,
but it still lasted and created
these multi trillion dollar companies i think the other side of it is like okay well yes open ai and
all these companies are going to make infinite money nvidia is going to make infinite money but
uh yeah how big can the bubble get and i don't know i i feel like frank i think it's i think
it's more fair to compare it to the dot-com bubble. Interesting.
Why?
Well, because Google and these other companies, they were the application layer companies that were built on top.
Not just the original, you know, send it to the moon.
And again, these companies that blew up in the dot-com bubble, they were all publicly listed.
All of the financials were public information.
None of this is public. And so, you know, you public and so you know interesting i see what you're saying you're saying like all these other guys
are gonna basically die like the the surrounding stuff you see that as a lot of the vapor from the
dot-com bubble oh there's so much vapor where you have no idea how many i honestly i'm not
getting to know there are kids dropping out of mit, getting fucking $15 million checks the next day with literally zero coding experience.
It is the most degenerate piece of shit fucking cancer to the ecosystem, to tech fucking disgrace that I've ever seen in my life.
It's actually, it's insane.
If you have an Ivy degree and you simply leave college and you walk into a VC office with sandals and you say the word AI five times with a dot AI
name and like agent you have to say agent now agent yeah you're right spec yeah agent agent
has to be said several times over you're getting funded that day it really sounds like Silicon
Valley is a later fractal than crypto because what you're describing I could use those exact
same words for the AI meta on chain. It's actually hilarious
Like literally word. That's what I'm saying. It's like there are a lot of parallels
It's that's fat. That's awesome human shit. That's pretty fascinating
Like I saw I saw I forget where I saw this but the whole thing was in
Tradify you have basically, you know meme stocks and AI agents
These are the new two things that popped up and you basically the same thing with crypto you have meme coins and ai agents like these are the two bubbles um that are really debaucherous
you know in both sectors yeah instead of instead of dumping on the jeets they're dumping on doctors
and dentists they're selling them no they're selling these and to the government right like
this scale ai 99 you know scale, they just got totally gutted.
And somehow now they have a $99 million contract with the US Army, whatever the fuck that is.
Like it's the taxpayers, the doctors, the dentists, like all of these, all of these people are going to hold the bag.
And they're doing the same thing.
Damn.
So Speck, what are you optimistic about or what do you like with ai
i think uh no i i'm i'm fully optimistic on on the direction of the technology
right and so i i think there are a lot of these i think we're going to get this correction where
all of these vaporware companies are going to get decimated.
Because again,
to Avi's point,
there are actually just a bunch of fucking retards in Silicon Valley right
now.
Nobody knows how to code.
You give them cursor and suddenly there are a million software engineers.
And that sounds like me.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That is who is last week,
dude.
I hired,
I hired like two, I had two Berkeley kids working for me, okay?
And I look at my fucking code base and my like senior engineer who's worked at Amazon for like tens of years, literally, sits down and looks at the code base and he sees like half of it is fucking clawed AI.
And we have to scrap the entire thing.
It'll literally compromise our entire fucking user base.
These kids will like sit there and they'll pitch you that they're like the freaks of nature of AI.
And they're just using like cursor and clawed with like zero skill.
And that's what they're pitching to the VCs that are shoveling them dog shit and then dumping secondaries, then triple valuations.
And then continues to doing the over and over because it looks good to LPs or then paying them more money because it looks good to LPs.
It's like a circle of bullshit. I don't know necessarily when it's going to end,
but I think a lot more people are catching on to it. I can say that.
I think an obvious example here of how invested they are in the narrative is Axiom. YC has this
company that does insane fucking growth, unprecedented. you know, and, and, uh, of course they're still talking
about open AI, how they kind of participated in YC 10 years ago.
And, and, and they're like, that is such a bar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're covering up the one success story that they've had in the last few cohorts to
just show more and more AI bullshit.
That doesn't work because they're trying to like, because that's the framing that makes their lps happy so that they can get the next fund and they're just like they're trying
to float this so of course the vc model is going to you know stay in this inflation for the next
decade but ultimately we gotta get we gotta get gary tan in here right now, man. Holy shit. That's crazy.
It's so bad. There's kids raising funds now. Like I, I, I mean, I have friends that have raised funds, right. But like there are kids that are like fucking 17, 18 years old, straight out
of college with like a filthy rich family, whatever it is that will get whatever check
amount and then go out and say that like, they're the freaks of nature with scouting this AI talent.
Right. And they'll just fucking invest dog shit amount of money
into these random AI wrappers
that are all feeding back into open AI.
And their investors are in open ad.
Their LPs are fucking A6Z or Sequoia or one of these companies.
So everyone's benefiting this little circle jerk.
And it's actually the most degenerate bullshit
I think anyone's ever seen in Silicon Valley.
Yeah, like Frank, you think you're Cabal? Yeah, you should go look at A6Z. And it's, it's bull. It's like actually the most degenerate bullshit. I think anyone's ever seen in Silicon Valley. Yeah.
Like Frank, you think you're cabal?
Yeah.
You should go look at a six to Z.
Yeah.
Look at a six to a six to a single handedly criming the valuations of every
company they invest in on the AI, on the AI level on like immense degrees.
Like I can't even describe the shit I've heard from a 16 Z let alone like
Sequoia or index or any of these other funds.
It's a crime, dude.
Let alone Epstein's list.
But is this bullish for Kled, Avi?
How does this affect Kled?
Yeah, bro, I'll milk these fucks for what they're worth, right?
I'll take them for whatever they are.
Dude, sometimes I'll be like, I hope Kled,
sometimes I got to mute you, man.
Like, dude, relax.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get it. I get it. Okay, okay. Okay. So spec another question
At what point like I mean
Yeah, what what is the next thing to that you think that's good or bad? That's about to happen
Like you're following the industry so closely. What's like coming up next that's good or bad
With ai yeah
i think cursor is the first one to go damn man because i like it like it's like i i even if
sometimes i just use clock code fucking in in the terminal in there which is you know renders
cursor pointless i you don't think
there's some stickiness there. Like why would that one be the first one to go? It's because
he means go bankrupt. Is that what it is? I think it'll get gutted. Like these other companies,
this is, you've seen this play out time and time again. It's like, why the fuck are all these
companies getting gutted? And the team is getting bought for, you know, this ridiculous amount of
money. And then all of a sudden another company acquires the carcass of of the old company it's just it's very obvious that they've they've
found a new way to like yo what do you think about what what they're doing with 100 mil contracts
they recently like got to their team or something or what's going on there well a lot of that was
actually uh and it's funny because man the the media and narrative engine from from silicon valley is
it's really fucking insane um but there's a whole cabal of posters that were you know
everyone's saying billion dollar offers from that a billion dollars like zuck is throwing around
money for these opening eye researchers oh they said no like they don't want to go yeah guess what open ai was raising more
money it's like you know well you can just trace it across the timeline and and it's just narratives
it's you think there's like military grade psyoping from some of these oh yeah frank you have no idea
dude no way why are they trying to respawn cnn like what why the shots are crazy no no really like t tbpn how many vcs are invested
in that like what there was a reason that uh they they asked me to talk about you know come on and
talk about ai sycophancy and and one-shotting like two months ago and then crickets spec if
you have to describe a date of when Cluley gets acquired or shuts down
and when I say acquired for an undisclosed amount, that's what I mean.
What would it be if we had to make a prediction mark on it right now?
I think Cluley could be a bit of a poster child saying, look, look at the success.
They raise another round, right?
It could be a golden child uh to
try to make things look like they're okay but but clearly yeah 12 months and you'll never hear about
royley again that's fair what does that even mean are you saying he's gonna exit for fucking 100
100 mil like what the fuck are we talking about i think he's saying they're gonna crime the chart
i think that's what you're saying right they're gonna crime the chart up he's been cramming the chart bro no but they've only raised
one round so far so what he's saying well i think you're saying yeah that round you know how he
got called by a16d like literally like four days before that round closed and a16d won some like
fucking bidding war with sequoia and these people. Like, it's such a bubble that...
What's your source on this?
Is it, like, primarily, or is this what you read?
I talked to Roy Lee as the offer came in.
Yeah, this is the source.
This is what happened, is A16Z gave this offer because they...
What they're doing is they're not investing in Clue Lee.
They're buying the timeline, right?
And so, A16Z came with this crazy offer and i was like dude what
the fuck are you doing go talk to other firms like what the fuck are you doing these guys are
going to own you they're going to own you and uh they gaslit him into thinking that if he talked
to other firms they'd sue him and all this bullshit the classic it's it's the classic vc playbook and
so yeah he signed his death sentence but there
were no other firms involved uh they sold this all yeah they they bought they bought the timeline
they bought the timeline is a crazy take wow i never thought about it he's posting with rari's
bro like what the fuck are they buying no no what you said what wait let me just read and
so i understand you correctly because I think this is blowing my mind
You're saying like in order to influence the tech Twitter timeline
It's a line item for a a 16 Z and they just basically bother
Yeah, right. This is so often dude, this is like the 10th iteration
They just knew that it would be aura for them basically it was like marketing spend yeah it's literally yeah it's marketing okay okay
that's crazy wow so do you think crypto people like specs you're on both sides like do you think
crypto people are in the right spot do you think ai people are in the right spot you think it's all
going to zero like no i think i'm bullish on crypto if you can stop being a fucking degenerate
for the next two years,
I know,
I know it's a me and people wouldn't say that for a long time,
but I actually do think there's,
I think the market and,
you know,
if you want to look at it from a funding lens,
it's going to rotate back to crypto.
And I think there's going to be a lot more adoption.
You know,
as we already see with,
with,
you know,
these fucking whatever markets, these off-chain markets, I think crypto is really the place to be.
That's cool to hear, man.
That is cool.
Yeah, because I think all that VC really needs is like there's just been all Ls for the most part.
I mean, Hyperliquo didn't raise famously, and they're like the best one.
And there hasn't been a good performing like vc coin in a while if they have one banger like one or two bangers ico style with or venture
backed or whatever it is i think then we could see a cycle of funding um you know like a new vc cycle
which would be bullish for all the fucking you know the degenerates honestly and the trenchers because yeah but why do we need bcs again are we going to learn or or no but like axiom right look i would love for us to learn
i'm just going off of what you're i'm extrapolating based on what you're saying and it makes sense
yeah no no i was just speaking through that lens but i i think people need to be smart and and
when the when the funding shifts back you you got to remember what the fuck these guys do and how they pump and dump the market.
As soon as they can make more money by shorting and crashing the market, they'll flip on you again.
And that's probably what's going to happen with AI.
I think the correct point, VCs should never be like a signal.
should never be like a signal. These people are generally just very retarded. VCs across the board
These people are generally just very retarded.
are pretty brainlit, low IQ, horrible people to talk to that don't know how founders work,
don't know how actual markets work, have never built companies in their lives,
and probably deserve no money in their bank account. And they're really just working for
other people's money. They're working for the people that actually built things and are giving
to them or filthy rich inherited. These are not signals to invest it's much more like substantiated to have like an actual solid product and making
your own judgment right like these this is just not like a signal to invest into anything
but you're gonna ask them for money at some point down the line in in 10 years or whenever
clad exits for three bill or whatever the fuck so you're shitting on them now
but then you're gonna glaze them when you need the bread well that's what they like to be degraded
exactly expect they literally like this dude i here's my strategy game is game i sat the
down i i got on calls with these vcs and i didn't let them ask questions and i hung up the phone if
they asked more than two questions and i raised my first round in three days. I swear to God, this shit works. It is actually the most brain dead shit ever. It's a game to all the
founders play. These people like to be spit on. I'm not even kidding because they're worthless.
They chase like sheep. For years, I tried pitching properly to them, getting the actual metrics,
building a real company. And then once you build a fancy looking website and you sit down and you treat them like dog shit they start swinging their dicks around trying to
get you to take wait so when you go in the meeting you're like yo no questions or like what the fuck
is the i walked in the meeting say like i only wear flip flops game my server yeah you have to
you have to you wear flip flops or a sweatshirt you walk into the meeting you say you're not
joking i'm not joking you say you have five minutes to talk.
Your servers are on fire.
You have a hundred different things going on.
At the end of the meeting, you mentioned you have like five more of these lined up in the same day.
And then you hang up the phone and don't talk to them again.
And then you have the person who introduced you follow up with them saying that I'll be talking to 50 other VCs this week.
And they'll throw you a term sheet the next day.
I swear to God, this shit has happened to me like eight times over in a span of a week literally it's it's a game when you go through
it obviously when you go through it you realize it's like wow when when when you actually understand
the power dynamic and how to play the game you realize how fucking worthless they are and that
there's money exactly that that should that you should actually just get your money from customers
and if you need to raise capital,
raise capital from your customers or go straight to the LB.
Go straight to the family.
Like you really should have been here last night.
Cause there's some guys that are really anti-thesis exactly what you're just
saying.
Basically saying like,
there's no smart startups outside of SF.
Basically no one's,
no one's going to be successful as they're part of the SF ecosystem.
And I'm like, bro, like I feel like I was fighting the only fight there at that fucking stage because they're basically trying to imply that that's the only ecosystem that matters.
Yeah, I think the problem right now is that's where it is at, right? The reality is I have to
play that kind of game if you want to really start off early on. And I think some others do.
But I think it's shifting more towards you can kind of build it yourself if you want to really start off early on. And I think some others do, but the, I think like it's shifting more towards
like you can kind of build it yourself, like at least in the last two years,
which was great, but you can now kind of just like launch these coins, you know,
build for actual products and raise some customers like there's these other outlets.
But for the longest time, this game has been like completely rigged.
Like VCs raising is like the most rigged bullshit,
like dick sucky game ever
that like makes no sense damn man i mean yeah i frank you're in the wrong you're playing the
wrong game bro seriously i don't know why you're still here you could be part of the cabal you
could be you know grooming minors lining up their first fund investment whatever the cabal you could be you know grooming miners lining up their first fund
investment whatever it is man you could be you could be yeah you wouldn't have to be on a
fucking twitter space when's the last time you saw a vc on a twitter space bro dude this is the
best what do you mean this is the best i love it vcs can't hold a conversation dude look i think
i'm a big believer of the whole you know nothing ever
happens type of philosophy which has its pros and cons but uh it's one of these things i'm sure it's
bad i'm sure it is bad um but i think it's gonna take some really bad shit to end the party like
and again this could be impending but it could also be fucking a year from now. But yeah, I think obviously you should always be hedging and protecting,
especially at this stage in the market and like the world that we're in.
But how do you hedge against this though?
You can't even participate.
In what?
In startups?
Yeah, in AI.
Well, yeah.
I mean that I can't.
But like, you know, as you're saying,
Yeah, go for it you
want you want to know the party ends the party ends when um x named person gets leaked for fucking
like fucking minors and then paying them um like money after they like for seed rounds for example
i won't name who but like that like shit like this happens in san francisco like it's the fucking
it and there's like kids sounds like you need to
name who Avi it's like a moral obligation it is not it's not my moral obligation but dude like
this is like it is horrible and there's like kids who I know that have been funded through like
routes like this or at least like less serious routes than this that I mean it's insane like I
think the partner we got founder hold on we got i i saw this in the request i had
to do it i believe we've got a venture capitalist here on stage we have a vc on stage so alexander
welcome i'm unmuting but uh i mean it sounds like a lot of shots are getting taken to vcs
what's what's your take on what's being said yeah i think i think most of my peers are shit so i actually agree with a lot of the takes um
well yeah but i do want it but i do want to i do want to add though that uh i think it's very easy
to acknowledge that the majority of failures with vcs is part of their economics right people talk
about the power law and people say hey like that's, that's the entire way of how VC works is
you make one bet. 99% of their other bets are going to go to zero. Well, like, if you really
think about it, that's why every other fucking deal that they do is dog shit. It's because,
okay, well then if you want to do a spotlight bias on their winners, you're going to have a
bunch of grifts. You're going to have a bunch of losers. You're going to have a bunch of easy
ammunition to say, yeah, this VC sucks because they decided to bet on some
crime.
And I would say it got essentially validated with crypto because crypto just made it 10
times easier, 100 times easier, because you have people making money off of ICOs, have
no idea how to build an actual company.
They have a ton of money to now invest in companies, get in earlier, and then they play the game.
They play the game of getting in earlier, doing vows low, and then marking it up so that they can sell to the next idiot.
I'm saying this as a VC because I'm the one that came out with my fund with my partner last year to say,
I think that this game is rigged.
I think that the game is dumb, but it doesn't mean that all of us are well why aren't you building a company then alexander
well i think well it's happened so i've i started off as an engineer i've i did build a company
a digital health care company called tether health um it failed during covid so i actually
saw the other side of it i also was an engineer and PM at companies that got acquired.
So like, I, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say I'm like a quintessential, like look at this
guy that, you know, IPO to company at multi-billion dollars.
But at the same time, I'm, I'm, I'm more zero to one than most of my peers.
But why am I not building a company?
Because I actually think that I care about impact at scale.
Like I can invest in multiple founders that are better than me,
better engineers than me, smarter than me,
that can do a lot more than me.
And I can do it across multiple people.
How often do you call your port coast?
I spoke with three of them today.
Get them out of here.
Are you like more accelerator
or are you just like straight up just like
standard, you know, venture fund?
Standard venture fund.
I never...
I don't have...
That's not my job. I'm not
starting the company. What value
can I bring that the founders
themselves should already be able to
do themselves?
So why'd you call them?
So right now, there's a difference between helping them win and also protecting their
downside risk.
So I have a bird's eye view on the industry, given the number of founders I'm talking to,
the dog shit that other VCs are sending me.
And if I have something to say to them, then I will
say it to them.
Also, I wired one of them, so I had to call them.
Nah, you didn't.
Just wire the money and shut up.
No, it's called a callback
verification.
It's called a callback verification
call.
Alex, are you investing in crypto stuff, AI stuff?
What kind of stuff?
Yeah.
Sorry, my voice is fucked.
It's 3 a.m. in London right now.
But yeah, I'm doing everything.
I mean, our thesis is pretty fucking simple.
Like great founders and then high-velocity businesses
with something that taps into the primal needs.
Alex, how much did you raise for the fund?
Or $60 million.
$60 million? Is this fund one?
Yeah, early stage, first institutional check.
Okay, this is fun one, right?
Fun one, yeah.
What was the pitch to LPs when you guys were raising the funds?
As an emerging manager, it's minimal track record.
It's, hey, we know our shit, and it's building trust.
The pitch is trust.
Alex, you have to swear on your absolute life here, right?
I'm going to ask you heart to heart.
Did you ever mention the word AI during the pitch?
Of course.
Okay.
Got it.
That's all I'm going to ask.
It's not a jab.
What does that question even mean?
What do you mean?
Like obviously.
Well, look.
I just think raising these funds is no longer.
I thought you were about to hit a crazy gotcha.
No, obviously.
No, that is AI.
Did you mention AI?
That is a pretty big gotcha, right?
Because most of these funds are not being raised off of merit nowadays.
They're raised off this narrative playbook
that is basically finessing LPs for their money
and then investing them into other people's dogshit AI company wrappers, right?
That's the whole problem I see in this entire VC ecosystem.
So yeah, it is a bit of a gotcha because if you're investing AI
and that's the basis of it, that's a problem.
You think LPs
are a problem?
Yeah, most who are
investing in shit as one manager.
Wait, one at a time, Alex,
then Avi.
I think a lot of LPs
get bamboozled by VCs.
And so LPs aren'tboozled by VCs.
And so LPs aren't doing the right diligence.
Isn't that your job, though?
Yeah, but in fairness, I mean, he's not, like, he's doing his thing.
He's going to believe in himself.
Like, you know, what are you expecting with this line of questioning?
Frank, Frank, Frank, the line of question is this.
I have one thesis, okay?
If you raise a fund, you should have built a very successful company and a company that has actually provided value to people. That way, when you go to LPs, you're raising off the merit on the company's success,
not on the exit, not on anything else, on the company's success itself. There should be very
few VCs on the planet. There shouldn't be a thousand different VCs and people begging to
raise funds so they can make money on carry. I believe that-
Yeah, but like Paul Graham via web didn't go public like does that mean he shouldn't have started y comedy i don't understand
a lot i mean i get what you're saying but i mean he's sold via web though okay yeah
yeah it was a success that like that you're you're not understanding the vcs that are raising
nowadays are like and like tier two engineers like you said like billion dollars like they
should have been a billion dollar company that's's, I'm just a billion dollar company.
I said, I said they have to have a successful company
and that means either exiting,
having run it themselves.
Okay, fair.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
But the problem is there's people
like fucking Pareto, for example,
that are like general, general partners,
the founders of the fund
that were like the 18th engineer
at fucking Amazon or some shit like that.
Not even Amazon.
I'm talking about like way lower tier companies
and they think they have the merit to then raise a fund when they're never even out of
companies exactly yeah yeah and i think i think a point to touch on here is it's it's not really
so much about hey i i know how to impart this wisdom on on these people i invest in it's actually
as simple as hey look i was somehow autistic enough and, you know, on the spectrum enough to build a big company.
I know how to find me.
Right.
Like, that's where the merit is.
He's spot on.
Spot on there.
Zell, you were raising your hand a bunch.
What's up?
Yeah, I basically just want to say, like, I think to some degree it's also the lps right you
know they're the ones giving the money and if they have an appetite for ai i think it's within the
funds reason to find ai companies and i think given the current like market conditions uh yeah
there's a lot of people building slop but you know most funds also miss a lot of shots so i think
that's almost like a null point in this argument because, you know, most funds are returning their,
their thesis is try to return the fund off every investment, right?
So if the LPs want AI,
I think that it doesn't make sense to just not search for that.
Okay, wait, yo, I got a question, like,
for the guy who raised a fund, like,
how do you even find LPs as a, like, a founder?
Like, why can't we just go direct to the LPs and raise from them?
You can.
Yeah, you can.
No one's stopping you.
No, but I'm asking you, how do I do that?
It seems like it's LinkedIn.
I don't know about you guys.
Can you send Chris all your contacts, bro, so that he could bypass you?
can you send krish all your contacts bro so that he could bypass you
i actually so i did have a post a while back that uh shit all over vcs and attracted a lot of lps
i hopped on a couple of calls with them and they're actually fed up with the bullshit
they they want to go direct to founders it's not really feasible at scale right like there is some sort of friction that has to be reduced there uh with these big mega funds that just want to deploy
their capital and can't really you know look for good companies but but if you are a good founder
and you go and seek them out they will give you money and you don't have to deal with the phone
call ever what you expect could you hook me up yeah i got you thanks wait wait bro you're an alliance doubt
dog like you're probably one of the best fucking people no if it happens on the spaces if business
happens on the spaces frankie boy gets a cut it's all right no no it's not that chris is literally
a stanford kid he could walk into fucking andreessen's office right now and get a check
the next day i like on my life this is how this works chris you have no worries in in the world to raise right
you can raise very easily and bro's literally with the the vc firm that's behind the top revenue
producing protocols and fucking solana so i think i think he's gonna be chris you're vibing bro you
don't have to worry about any of this yeah bro i didn't i didn't graduate college bro dude that's
even better they want the dropout you know this that's so cool like they don't
nah that was some like fucking
he knows what he's doing
that was some pick me girl type of energy right there
wow oh I dropped out of
Stanford okay
yeah how many pairs of flip flops do you have
uh I have uh
uh like just Birkenstocks
you know
ah yeah another perfect answer
is Patagonia still in like just Birkenstocks, you know? Ah, yeah, another perfect answer.
Is Patagonia still in the Valley or not really?
No, Chrome Hearts only.
Okay, okay.
I need to pop out.
Chris, you and me go to San Francisco.
I will fucking walk you into these offices,
and I promise to God, in a week,
we'll raise $20 million for Polycule.
On my life, I can put a fucking betting market open for this, dude.
On hard, cold cash, that will happen.
I promise to God.
Wait, Avi, how much could I raise just for CCF? You'd be lucky.
You'd have to fucking pay them to take meetings
with you okay just like me what is this whoa wait wait why why i'm curious what the fuck is the
look i think i can walk into the meeting sure christian has a better chance of walking to
the meeting because just a sanford kid right like like sanford dropout right but raz right you're
you're a content creator i mean honestly you you might land some of these meetings, right? But like, let's just talk about a more generalized example. Like, let's talk about
like some kid from Rutgers, for example, right? And he just like, he's still in college, he's
figuring it out, whatever it is, but he has like a product, it's sustainable, it looks good,
he's pretty ambitious, it is what it is. And he cold emails 50 VCs, for example, or like 500 VCs,
or 1000 VCs. He's getting two meetings maybe one
tops it's just to be fair why did he go to rutgers yeah that's the tough part dude right like there's
a lot of talent across the world that doesn't have the the economic opportunity to enter all
right all right bro we get it we get it yo who did you race from i raced from k5 so i raced from
like good fun but it took me three years to do it because i had to like work my ass off to get there three years how are you how are you defining good fund
it's like a five billion dollar aum fund they spawn every single product
why are you pedigree flexing right now dude yeah yeah so it sounds like the opposite of what you
were preaching exactly so what's up?
Oh my God.
I'm not preaching anything.
I'm saying I raised from them.
That's it.
There's nothing else.
I'm not,
I'm not talking about VCs being somehow better or some like which one's being better.
You know,
they're AWM dude.
Come on.
Yeah.
I know they're idiot.
Yeah.
I mean,
I don't think that's necessarily glazing them or anything like that.
I just think they're pretty like good fun.
And that's just like the reality of it.
We got Ben Pasternak here on stage.
I think he saw the title, VCs Cooked.
What's your take on this?
Guys, I'm on my lost legs.
I don't know if I can do this again.
There's got to be a prediction market for Ben saying he can't do it for that long.
Every time, that's the first thing he says in his face is i would ape that prediction market can't we do these at like 9 a.m like why we got i'm so you know i have fucking back-to-back
meetings all day and then anyway um vc's cooked i think uh i think that yeah the game is evolving
and like you know because of ai you need way less money at the start.
And, you know, it's indisputable
that small teams are outshipping big teams at this point.
That's just, like, the VC framing to a T.
What do you mean?
That's not true.
What's not true?
It's not actually playing out.
What's not true? That, that like these companies need no money look at fucking clearly they raised 15 million dollars to buy a fursuit
a ferrari and put put a billboard up in times square what do you mean they don't need as much I mean, that's one example.
Yeah, I guess, you know, you have the CalAIs of the world, you know, founded by a high school kid doing $40 million in revenue a year. That was not possible three years ago.
But because of AI, that is possible.
And there's many such examples.
And you know...
Did you buy his course?
I did not buy his course, but I...
You know, I think he's pretty...
You know, he's gone pretty far by...
I was thinking about getting it.
I'm not going to lie.
This is an embarrassing admittance.
But I saw the announcement
and I watched the video.
Like, their live stream or whatever. I'm i'm like look is it worth a thousand bucks or whatever probably not you're not rich
enough already frank no no but i'm just curious about how i mean cali is a great app like i use
the fucking app like what do you want me to say like i'm not i'm not even no bias at all like
it's just a good it's just a good ass app and so when i saw the announcement i didn't know all the
background but i watched the video and the guy just explains how we built calai like in
super detail like in a retarded amount of detail and so it's this is one of those this is a hotter
take for me because the consensus is it's really bad um but i don't think calai and those guys are
bad like at making apps like they make good apps so i'm interested sometimes what they have to say their their marketing aside the guys the band of brothers that started it the
app mafia or whatever is like they are all badass and i've spoken to zach multiple times i'm like
insanely impressed with him i spoke to him between his classes because i was trying to get some juice
trying to understand what like what he was unlocking uh on the creator side and he is actually like insanely intelligent and the difference
between buying a course from a builder like him and he is a builder I mean he programmed a lot of
the app and obviously then grew it into a team and stuff but he also managed a lot of the creators. Like he, he was in the trenches, so to speak in web two, uh, marketing and building this
product to 3 million in monthly revenue, or is it annual?
I don't, I don't know what his revenue number is a couple of a month.
It's a couple of mil a month.
Yeah.
But like buying, just to be clear, like buying a course from someone like that versus buying
a course from some YouTube shiller, like these are not made the same.
You know, so a thousand, I'm actually in a consumer chat with multiple founders that have businesses like this.
And we've been in this chat for a year and they were kind of making fun, like dunking on them a little bit.
of making fun like dunking on them a little bit and i was just like guys like for a thousand bucks
like you think about ad spend you probably spent you know a lot of these guys are spending like
5 25k a day in ads for a thousand bucks if you get anything that increases your odds of
dropping your cac even like five percent uh it's it's worth it so frank you should buy it it's but why does he need to sell a course
if he's doing yeah i think the thing that i have a hot take on this i've thought about this a lot
actually like i think the thing people hate about these guys the most is that in in silicon valley
you're supposed to be completely like fully dedicated almost like a missionary to your
company and that's what makes it successful that's the story and what's annoying about
these guys look i'm not saying i like it or not he's not he's not silicon valley bro no i agree no no
no my point is what's annoying about these guys to a lot of people that quote unquote like are
working really hard is that they're doing it while saying i don't really give a fuck about cal ai i'm
just buying man i'm buying mansions i'm buying cars whatever so this is annoying to people but as a trend spot, whatever. So this is annoying to people, but as a trend spotter,
like this is one thing I just always looking for as a trend spotter.
I just think that's going to get way more popular.
Like apps are going the way of e-commerce where the barrier is lower to
make them.
And then there's going to be these kids that just hustle and they find
like,
okay,
calorie tracking is a good niche.
And they just put retarded.
Yeah.
Like it's funny.
Like people,
people are like, you know, like they're piling on this guy for driving a Lambo,
whatever the fuck he was driving, whatever.
Uh, first of all, I never ever got that energy from him.
Like he always seemed pretty humble.
Like when I spoke to him and he was very giving of, of his, of not just his time, but like
his knowledge.
But importantly, like you're like, you're on this spaces with two of the biggest glazers
in ICM, dude.
Like that is what Avi is.
That is what I do.
And we just glaze all fucking day.
It's just, the Lambo is just a different type of glazing.
It's a marketing gimmick.
It's a hack.
It's a hook, whatever.
Like you'd look past that shit and just look at what the kid has done.
He is insanely impressive.
And it's not just him. His entire
band of brothers are insanely impressive.
They've all built something really cool
without any VC funding, bootstrapped.
You can't argue with the results.
It's totally worth the money.
I will say.
You know who I'd buy a course from?
One, I'd buy a course from Frank, but I would also buy a course from one i'd buy a course from frank but i would also buy a
course from banks because like undeniably like yo zaki edegari whatever but like banks has one
of the greatest careers of all time you can't teach all right no glaze no glaze but what i
want to just finish this on this whole app mafia thing or whatever the thing i learned with roy lee with app mafia basically i learned this myself very personally if you do rage bait on purpose you can't be
surprised if people get mad like this is a lesson that took me way too long to learn so but it's
very real like i've learned this viscerally myself is that rage bait is really good to put yourself
on the map and get people to notice.
But at the same time, just like any type of growth, there's just consequences.
So I think the AppMafia stuff, the Roy Lee stuff,
it's like people celebrate it when it goes really well.
But these founders need to know what they're signing up for
when they grow through RageBait type of things
because they're just going to have a subsect of the population that doesn't like them and then the way the algorithm works is that over time
the negative stuff just you know it just performs better it's more entertaining to read
that's just the game like that's just how it works and so when you do this rage bait stuff
you know over time you're just going to end up having more and more people that really want to
see you fail and on the internet today like it's a risky game you're playing dude i i strong i like so disagree with this i i said oh really why jump in yeah all right
bobby and then spec sorry sir spec yeah go the the like you have to you have to kind of bifurcate
this this whole like rage bait thing as a marketing gimmick and when you get to know the person and
you realize that they're that it was a marketing gimmick like And when you get to know the person and you realize that it was a marketing gimmick,
you are dealing with very brain-fried people
on the timeline who will forget within 48 hours.
This has happened multiple times
to multiple personalities.
They will forget that they rage-baited
if you do one good deed.
I disagree.
I think the internet never forgets.
No, I actually... No fucking way, dude. good deed and i disagree i think the internet never forgets they knew personally wait wait hold on hold on i'm gonna just say personally
i grew this account purely through rage bait and no one even remembers like yeah not now not now
but i remember that shit was goaded you you were a goaded shit poster and i
think that's also probably what makes you good at uh raising money and scamming i mean if you
don't believe me just look they try to cancel peter bot and take away his titles for something
he said three years ago like to say the internet forgets like no no the internet remembers when
he's 18 yeah frank in a year that shit's never going to be talked about again. Let's all be real.
Look, do you remember when fucking PewDiePie said the N-word?
He's still the GOAT, right?
No, he disappeared.
He disappeared.
He literally disappeared after that.
He ruined Arch Linux.
Speck, what were you going to say?
Yeah, well, I think it's just, it was different than Rage Bait.
This was a deliberate rug pull.
That's the vibe that I got, right?
Like, these guys knew they were going to do something so highly controversial and i think they thought
they were going to add a few million they got like 500 fucking k at that point why don't you
just launch a shit coin and rug the shit out of people make 10 mil like there are much more
effective ways to do that it felt like it was clearly like a bad what you're saying
is it was just a bad strategy like it didn't work out absolutely yeah that's a bar well it built
it built his personal brand up but but his personal brand is a lot more known now from
that video going viral no razmer he was really well known before it was already known dude calia
is bigger now right it's like another piece of lore for his personal brand it's just not
though he's literally everywhere and people people saw him as the golden child.
Look, I think he could have definitely executed the way they launched what they wanted to launch.
I think that is true.
His brand was everywhere, to be fair.
I think he's not any bigger than he is now than he was before.
Most of the views are botted, but I think he could have definitely done it better.
Yeah, but also I think it's still early in it, right?
You know, a lot of these info sellers and the people in that space, like they're at the point where they're running like 10 to 20K a day in Facebook ads.
So I think for an X launch, it did pretty well.
No, it definitely did well.
I'm just saying like, like I'm thinking like Evie, right?
Like long term, like I think Zach could have, look, I like the kid. I, it definitely did well. I'm just saying, like, I'm thinking, like, Evie, right? Like, long-term,
like, I think Zach could have...
Look, I like the kid.
I think he's really bright.
Like, I think, again,
they rage-baited the fuck
out of everyone, right?
But I think he could have done
more with the opportunity he had
because he was, like,
on mainstream news outlets.
He was on, like,
every big podcast.
Like, there could have been
more, like, productive...
Yeah, I mean,
he was on, like,
Mr. Beast.
Yeah, dude,
at least on a few, though.
Let's be real.
Like, dude was fucking killing it like he didn't have
to do this like there's is he raising is he raising less money at lower vows now because
of this no no exactly i mean unironically he might like i would say as as a connoisseur of
that type of shit you know but why why not just call it what it is it was a poor marketing stunt
by a highly substantive person like that's fine yeah yeah that fine. That's a good way to put it.
He is highly substantive and he's
18, dude.
He's more time than you.
That's it.
You're acting as if there wasn't
four adults doing that shit with him, bro.
There's like...
They were all 22.
They're pushing 30.
That's not even true.
I feel like Hunter Isaacson's pushing 30.
We got stats stats.
We got stats stats.
But, Chris, no one's talking about the other adults.
Who gives a fuck about the white?
He's the new Tai Lopez.
That's all I'm going to say.
No, wait.
No, dude.
Tai, no.
Come on.
Tai's a retard.
We all know this.
Yeah, yeah.
Last time I talked to Tai, I literally lost brain cells.
He's like...
Wait, wait, wait.
Hold on. That lore, you talk to Tai? Dude cells um he's like wait wait hold up that lore
you talk to ty dude anyone who's like actually explains a lot no no do not do not fucking say
that i hung up the phone on this he's a complete scam artist um no yo don't call avi bro you might
get flamed on a spaces like six months later without even knowing it wait so wait why did
ty lopez call you then can, can we delve into this?
You know why I called Tai?
I called Tai.
Well, Tai sent, sent me a cold DM on Instagram because I was close friends with this MMA
fighter named Milan Galani.
It was like where we did our first, like, it was like the first person I worked with
when I was entering like art and music.
Right.
And, uh, he DMed me because he wanted a connection to him.
And then he said
what i was doing was interesting so i hopped on a call with him and ty 10 seconds in decided to
ask me for 20 advisory shares in my company for a 50 000 investment and i hung up the phone
it's bad bro amazing uh i'm i'm long zach i'm calling it i'm calling it now he's gonna be on the front page
of a magazine this guy he he has he has aura he's a good looking kid he's really freaking smart
he's really young he has a lot of at-bats left in him i don't think anyone talks about this in like
fuck a year i think in like a month no one talks about no one
gives a shit dude everyone moves on and they'll look at the next thing yeah look at other people
on front of uh forbes magazine what's i mean if the point is that he's going to jail i i don't
know what i don't know what point that is but okay i don't think he's going to jail yeah but
like bobby don't you feel like there should be consequences for people's actions?
That's God's job, my friend.
Everyone is accountable to their maker in their thoughts, words, and actions.
That is not your job.
It could be the market's job, but it's ultimately God's job.
Done.
Man, we lost Ben, but we got Shark guy uh what's up brains why was that so disappointing
you like sighed a moan when you said that dude the fuck um, what's up, man?
Damn, now I can't hear him.
You made him fucking leave, dude.
You made him leave.
Oh, did he leave?
He hasn't even got speaker.
Damn.
We're literally cool.
No, he's here.
He's here.
I see him on stage.
Oh, no.
He's gone.
He's gone.
Fuck.
You scared him off already, bro.
Dude, it was a little comedy man say
They don't let it all out jokes anymore these days. It's crazy. Um, but yeah, I
Think I think uh, I
Think I broke your brain by calling God out that was a bar. I'm not gonna lie. That was good actually No, bro. Okay. That that was actually not good, bro bro that didn't even make any sense i'll be real what what part of it didn't make sense you're like
only the market can judge you like i am the market like what does that even mean no i said only god
can judge you my friend no he said god and the market bro like i said maybe the market i said
maybe the market maybe the market like the like yeah look i i don't know why that's a bad take
like what like you think you're gonna
hold this guy accountable what are you gonna physically make him do something i just feel like
if someone does some fuck shit you you should like you shouldn't approve that shit you can't
just be like yo it doesn't do another grift i feel like i feel like we need as a society like
maybe i missed the grift like what is the grift. Like, what is the grift?
Like, launching a course is not a grift.
Shooting a video, like, what is the, where's the grift?
What did I miss?
I think the grift is how much you're glazing this dude.
I don't even understand why that's a grift.
That's my, that's just an opinion.
But, like, what is the actual grift?
That's for God to decide.
There we go. All right right all right okay we got we got rings back up man my favorite guy honestly i like him more than ben uh what's
up man can i jump in here yeah go for it i just fucking yeah hey guys um yeah dude well first
shout out to octra as you can see the badge badge right to the right of my checkmark. Just wanted to mention them real quick. But yeah, for tier one VCs, you know, as a founder, I'm working on my, yeah, I'm working on my second protocol, actually. And from my experience of working with a lot of the VCs in the space, the really good tier one VCs will back you through good times and bad. And they will just show up for you and they are absolutely invaluable, right?
Like they won't make you find PMF, right?
I think they'll just be a catalyst
for whatever you have going on,
but finding, you know, the right VCs like Electric,
A16Z, Paradigm, Dragonfly, et cetera,
those are absolutely people you want in your corner
in the long run because, you know,
crypto is super cyclical
and hopefully, you know, we're going into a good time.
This is a brave stage for you to say that on man you're brave for that i know i'm very brave
thank you appreciate it he's right actually but you have to go to the sauna
no more cooking please
um who have we not heard from here on stage
i have nothing to add to this shit dude what the hell man out three times and this guy no
it's ridiculous dude reigns man you gotta get your internet checked making me look bad
frankie bro it's crazy yo hey hey bro's good? Are you gonna start shooting splat? Hopefully just like that guy showed up the man fuck
Nah, I had to remove them dude. Come on man. I had to you can't just say it's a bad precedent
I'm a I'm all about precedent man. Like oh Steven's cooked
We got Steven on stage if that's the president Steven is fucking cooked, bro. He's just stuck on connecting, right?
Yo, can we get Gainsey in here?
Dude, yeah, Gainsey, man.
Chris, we should make a prediction market right now.
Me and you sit down for a cut.
Look, I only need 10 minutes with you, okay?
10 minutes into you,
I turn you into Mark Zuckerberg.
10 minutes, that's all it takes, okay?
We're going to walk into Silicon Valley,
we're going to rob these people for all they're worth,
and then you're going to pay me
whatever I'm betting on this prediction market.
I guarantee you'll do it, okay?
You can raise fucking infinite amounts of money.
I don't know why we're even asking the question
that you can't raise money.
It's like the most obvious thing ever.
You can raise fucking $50 million tomorrow
if you wanted to.
Sounds like you're going to struggle after that after that bro this space is fucking recorded oh right i mean i'm not the
one talking about scamming vcs bro i'm just trying to no it's not a scam though it's not a scam though
chris is not a scam though you're going to you're going to sell them the pot the pie in the sky
dream you're going to make it fucking happen okay because you're real shit why doesn't frank just fucking why if it's so easy to it to raise like fucking llm money
why frank i have a really good argument for why you shouldn't like why you shouldn't raise
is because of course these vcs are gonna fund these kids because like you're basically saying
yeah you're giving me all this money but you also have to dedicate the next five six seven eight
years of your of your life on it if you if you have somewhat of a conscience like you're actually trying to like do
a project or these kids don't have consciousness bro i don't care i yeah but razzler's asking
your question my point is that there's a trade-off too obviously right like it's uh it's also your
time which again depends if you value that or not but yeah right i just think
thoughts on uh ip thoughts on uh you know the other aptos type you know well one thing i want
to call out is there's you know crypto is pretty different than traditional startups or like yc
startups for example because the timelines that you're looking at there are closer to you know
seven plus years uh for people finding liquidity versus in crypto you know most of retail is
conditioned to just like you know they want liquidity and be like, and to be able to dump
and like, you know, a year or something much, much shorter. Right. And that's where these good tier
one VCs are thinking in decade long time horizons. Right. And you want somebody that is, you know,
playing the long game, identifying where the ball is going, and then can help you, you know,
tell your plan to get there uh and you it's
you know you're not going to really find that from retail there are some really really good
angel investors like bull price for example that are you know worth their weight in gold as well
frank frank there i i know people okay that like raise 15 million dollars and then burn it all on
fucking nvidia hard drives or where the fuck they want to burn it on and then the next day they're like oh dude it wasn't product market fit back in our fucking homeland bro frank back
in india you get fucking shot for that shit you you die on the spot all right i don't know why
i don't know billions of dollars for these vcs it's fucked Not every investment works out.
I think an interesting company to look into if you actually think, you know, they're founder friendly is 11x.
Go look at all the media framing and releases and see what happened to their CEO.
They have ways of just.
Wait, tell it.
Just give us the spoilers.
No, I mean, it's just you can collect this information. Like, actually what i think i want to know right now tell me tell me we even explain
protocol that happened like five days ago wait tell me about 11x and then we'll go to story
wait i just want to hear this sounds cool what happened to the ceo bro what happened oh well
he's just not there anymore he just you know kind of like he's just gone and this happens all the fucking time you were making it sally epstein man i'm not
gonna lie i was like i was expecting some crazy shit you're like go look at what happened
fair fair yeah talk about story dude it's the story it's fucking ceo yes but what happened
there marriage to raise it from a16, whatever, $100 million or something.
And then bro said- Three times.
Yeah, three times.
And bro was like, oh, I kind of sparked my passion for AI again.
I'm going to fucking dip on out of here three months after ITGE.
I don't even know if it was a month.
I think it was three weeks after ITGE or some shit.
And then just left.
And everyone's like, okay, it is what it is.
And bro's never again will this guy ever get any downside from that.
People are going to call him a god for literally taking their money.
They're going to.
He can get hired anywhere.
Okay, I've heard this take, but in the interest of making it interesting, I've heard your take.
I see it all over the timeline.
But I can't help but feel on the flip side as a trader, like the coin is up only.
Again, I don't hold any story.
I don't give a fuck. I can't be bothered to bridge or get on a sex but like you understand the counter to that
is that what you're describing the outrage that you're having for that situation is kind of like
a fish mentality where look the market is the market and if you are constantly getting upset
about something like that happening you know you're you're kind of hoping reality is
more than what it is like the the market's just different like again i thought when i saw the
news i thought story was gonna be down fucking 90 the way that twitter is reacting they own their
whole coin dude totally yeah no no by the way i'm not like here's i don't think story's good like
i don't give a fuck i honestly just don't care but when you're saying it like it's this huge
travesty.
I understand.
Like I get that it's bad.
I'm just trying to understand
like how mad should I be about it,
if at all.
Bro, I feel like this mentality
is like literally
degenerating human society.
I feel like you kind of...
Yeah, I don't...
That's a fair point.
No, that's a fair point.
I could be too far...
I could be one-shotted.
This is like, yeah, potential.
The market...
Like VCs are going to fund whatever the market market wants so it's like more hate the player i'm sorry i hate the game not
the player i'm totally fucked up bro they tge three weeks ago their market was non-existent
their market was the fucking founder saying trillion dollar asset class 50 times a day
and then raising and stealing their money that was was the market. Well, I mean,
like,
you know,
there's good founders and bad founders,
not saying,
not commenting on the quality of anyone we're talking about.
I'm not going to lie.
You actually have a,
do you guys hear this?
Like,
it's the same.
Yeah.
This is his old bro.
Straight up.
Holy shit.
That,
that would be crazy.
Wait,
sorry.
Continue. I just can't unhear it now. People have never seen me and P Mark on the same room. That would be crazy. Wait, sorry, continue.
I just can't unhear it now.
People have never seen me and Pete Marka in the same room.
Just saying.
Yeah, look, I don't want to sound like a VC apologist.
I know that's super taboo.
And I think there's like a billion, everything you guys said, I agree with.
I just, I don't know. Maybe I'm jaded.
I'm just like six years into this, five years into this,
and I just don't flinch.
It's like, yeah, this just happens.
Yeah, nobody mentioned this, Frank,
but you're actually a Y Combinator founder, right?
No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
Don't, Raz, what do you call it with the girls?
It's defense.
You're playing mad defense right now.
Have you guys heard about Alliance?
I think that's the closest thing to, you know,
YC that crypto has.
And Eminent Chow are super duper sharp.
So if any people in here are founders.
This is plugging shit, man.
Why are we doing this?
You're like fucking four for four, bro.
Yo, remember to apply to the next Alliance batch, guys.
Shut the fuck up, Chris.
I went through Alliance's second batch, like, apply to the next Alliance batch, guys. Shut the fuck up, Chris.
I went through Alliance's second batch back in the day.
And now they have an in-person component, which I think is super-duper awesome.
But for YC, also, check out Startup School.
It's like tons of really, really great advice.
Startup School is a honeypot for retail.
Dude, one at a time, guys.
Come on, man.
What is this?
Dude, Imran and Chow are some of the best founder friendly VCs out there highly recommend
Frank you were one-shotted on 10 21 24 by the way
That makes a lot of sense Well, is that some zero bro fucking shit that happened what's going on?
Dude don't look through my Twitter bro come on man you're gonna realize
i was one shot at a very long time ago that's crazy i got but i feel clouded i got a spec tweet
man i think i made it today this is crazy um worlds collide cool yeah i deleted that shit
already damn no I'll remember.
I've got to go hang out with my fan guys.
This was super duper fun.
Any last plugs?
No, just probably nothing. Fucking sick.
Check it out.
Thanks, man.
all right, nice. See ya.
No, there is a thing where people come up and they just feel an obligation to plug something i think this is this is actually a sign of society being one-shotted
um but not just me spec but yeah it is interesting i get it i think if i was in the other spot and i
came up and as much people listening i'd be like plugging my bags or whatever it is so i get it um yeah guys i don't know that's you're up i barely heard you talk you what's your take all this
no i think that's the worst way to go about things people hate fucking being pitched um
yeah it doesn't work the story tell your story of your business rather than
just saying oh you know this is xyz like no one actually gives a shit until you
give a reason for them to give a shit so yeah i don't know who that guy came up was but when you say like hey
shout out to these guys it actually has zero impact on it well on this stage for sure it's
like i think it's funny we had a couple people come up and they're like glazing vcs i'm like dude
you don't know what you're walking into gang um Oh Yeah, make sense. Yeah hype is about to hit $50. So I don't know why you would ever feel the need to do that but
What happened to banding where do you do that?
I think the funny I got like four dms when i said it but
it's so facts like ben pastor i come up on a stage you know he's about to hit you with the
dude my i'm in zimbabwe and my phone battery is a two percent i only got you know i only got one
second here um it's good it's just like there's so many obvious jokes that you can make you know
what i mean i don't i don't want to say them, but I think it's just like... No, Sam. Go for it, man.
Yeah, Razor, you can't hold back, dude. You got to say him.
Yeah, what are you holding back for, bro? This is your own space.
Razor holding back in the big two five?
That is crazy.
I went corporate, but I went VC on my head, dude.
Razor's in talks with A16Z right now to fund his next endeavor.
But Ben doing that, it's really important for him to do that because it gives him like uh like license to just dip
whenever he wants like you know what i mean like i gotta do some shit water's wet go away holy shit
all right fine he's just like he's not he's allergic to live guys i've tried to do live
with him multiple times he's just like very very allergic to it uh he's not built i mean you know it's like a thousand people how many people are in this room
i don't even know but you know like the last one we did there were like a thousand live people in
the room that you have to be a certain type of person to you know what's kind of wild is like
he made a live streaming app back in the day so it's like how do you go from
that's funny yeah he actually unironically did that's hilarious bro this is why he didn't donate
to mr beast dude he didn't have the fucking balls for it is what it is man i i've dude i've been
trying to get him to to do more live he wants to do like pre-recorded podcasts i mean it's just
fine like anything's better than nothing like whatever you know live is so much
more fun because you get to engage with people and you take some shit and you take some licks
that is what it is that's kind of what makes it interesting like the first rule of content is
don't be boring and i think pre-recorded content is boring as fuck so whatever we'll see but yeah
like he he just he i have noticed every single live his batteries at seven percent and he's no it's clockwork
He's 50 meetings and Evelyn's ha waiting
You know what?
That's bullshit
Yo, you know next time no next time game trust and we do these faces next time like first thing
I was I wanted to say before he joined gang trust if we do these spaces next time like first thing i was trying to get it today i was
i was i wanted to say before he joined because i just knew it was gonna happen but it happened
too fast but spec i have another question for you what's some crazy like what's some crazy
shit that's happened recently that you don't think is getting enough attention like some
travesty some crazy drama in the ai space yeah i think uh clearly's clearly coming out as a furry org was i don't know i didn't
see enough of that on the timeline i think it's it's gonna it's the new wave of the joke kind of
fell flat right i think that's what it was i was no it's all over instagram guys i see reels on it
it could be the clippers but they're actually going pretty viral i don't even know fucking
how but it is all over instagram it's the algo. That's your algo gang.
it's not.
wait a second.
Wait a second.
Hold up.
I'm not getting any of them,
man.
I don't know.
So furries,
clearly.
I haven't seen none of that shit,
bro.
You must have the furry algo or something,
bro.
Dude,
Frank's just got white.
The furry,
clearly I'll go.
This is the peak one shot.
That's zero shot right there,
man.
Does anyone use clearly like what is
this i'm not really a silicon valley guy is answer that question no razzmar the answer is a hard no
no i did try it so again look in the spaces people have hot takes i'll give the balanced one i tried
it when they first dropped and it makes sense in theory like it does go fast like if you use it on
a meeting people don't know clearly does the idea is like it's just real time giving you ai shit to say
it's like giving you stuff to say on meetings um it's like good but then i just forgot to use it
after the first time and then i thought fuck is roy lee taking my data there's a series of things
that happen after trying it and i'm like ah i'm just never gonna use this and then i i basically
uninstalled it but i see the vision like they could do something it makes sense
But I don't know. It's not and you don't need it and when you don't need it, then you probably just don't use it
That's from a that's a clueless review from frank d guys right there. Like I tried the fucking thing. I don't know. Um
So that's the craziest. I hope your wallets weren't on your computer
No, I was thinking that
the whole time bro i'm not gonna lie it's just that's what i'm getting is if you're if you're
making a desktop app sorry this is my shade to clearly if you're making like a desktop app that's
tracking everything you're doing it's if your marketing is like furries and a bunch of unserious
stuff it's not the best combo like the rage bait plus like what what's like permissions do they
ask for when you know everything it's everything really it's reading what's on your screen at all
times and then it's also uh yeah it's listening in on the audio too um god yeah and then what
you're typing too of course they're probably also storing like i haven't looked at their terms but
they're probably storing the data to to create some version of memories right uh so that future
conversations uh it brings up older context from prior conversations no it's not even that it's
not even that go look at their you know public revenue graph you see that big lineup that's a
supposed enterprise customer that's them dumping the data the data to someone that wants to buy it.
Holy shit.
Dude, stop it.
That's the enterprise plate.
No. No.
No. No.
No. No.
No. No. No.
No. No.
No. No. No. No.
No. No.
No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. unironically i think that's actually what they're doing yeah like what what enterprise customer would buy fucking like interview software for for 500k a year you're talking about roy he's like
best friends with mercore like this is obvious you know what i mean well i i mean i i think i
think there are use cases for 500k for a lot of companies not a lot of money and if you have a
lot of support agents you could you there, there are arguments where this is useful,
but damn.
Think about the security, the security policies.
There's no fucking way
that they're installing this software
across the whole company.
I don't know how many seats that would even be
for 500K a year.
There's no way.
Well, it'd be like, what,
like 50 bucks a month for like a thousand people, right?
Yeah, and do you think like a big company like that can get Roy Lee and Clulee's product in three months after launch and pass all of the requirements and all the teams that have to approve a software like that?
Yeah, now that you say that out loud, I have to admit i am very suspicious on what they sold the data
markets are huge right so like they can sell to anyone including meta
can you please fucking facilitate this bro please avi do all their data deals
i mean fuck yeah send that shit to me and i'll enrich it
oh my god i'm never selling my data fuck you fuck you avi Send that shit to me and I'll enrich it. That's the most evil sense you ever said, Razor. Goddamn.
Oh, my God.
I'm never selling my data.
Fuck you.
Fuck you, Avi.
Never selling my client. Give me your camera roll.
Give me fucking everything.
I'll do it for you.
I got Jeffrey up here.
I saw he was CS at John Hopkins.
And last name was Escobar.
And, you know, in the VC climate we're in, he's probably got a couple million dollar contracts.
What's your story, buddy? I saw you requested. Yo, what's up a couple million dollar contracts what's up what's your story buddy i saw you requested yo what's up frank yo what's up guys nah it's really good to be up
here i'm just building up something right now it's about to be launched but no actually going to like
specs topic i don't know if he's still here uh i do agree with him about like clue lee's privacy
rights like that's actually something interesting to look into because like,
I mean,
exactly like an enterprise company with like 500 K like that.
That's kind of crazy.
You know,
what are you going to,
what are you launching?
Dynapromps.
So the biggest library in the world.
Five mil.
Dude, that's cruel.
I'll give you $5 million on uncapped
save right the fuck now. I will write
it for you right now. I got you. Are you a dropout?
Yeah, did you dropout? Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
How many pairs of Birkenstocks do you have?
You're pitching the wrong stuff, buddy.
Always lead with the Birkenstocks.
No, I haven't dropped out.
Why? Do you guys think it's a good one?
I'll give you you 200k at a
five mil valuation it's it's a little bit yeah no man i was just shitting on you because you
started with i'm launching something and then tried to pivot to a question but uh yeah you're
gonna have to drop out if you want that that uh that safe sent over okay yeah i mean honestly
like whatever it takes right but uh yeah i that's something that i'm
really interested in doing well now you're being performative and the vcs will see that so
yeah no yeah i'm gonna increase it back up again i'll give you a mil at at 10
okay no then if it's performative then you know i think i should just finish right i think
everyone's dropping out so why not be like the the outlier who finished but he still made it there we go that's a wholesome that's a
wholesome wrap thank you so much jeff thanks for coming up that was a good way to end it uh that
conversation you didn't even let him ask his question no but spec had it right he didn't
really have a question right he started with the like i mean i waited for him to ask a good question
and he said that was interesting what spec said and it wasn't even that interesting with spec said i'm just rage baiting man
i'll play i'll play um no dude it's funny hearing the silicon valley people kind of talk the tech
world because it's it's like you think it's higher plane of thinking as a crypto person but then i'm
like kind of realizing it's just as retarded.
It's worse.
It's way worse, dude.
These guys are delusional.
Oh, wow.
I mean, people were fucking, I don't want to, people trade some retarded shit on Solana historically.
Let's just say that.
Yeah, but I kind of like, I think the best take for for me at least the one that stuck so far is when
spec was talking about being crypto versus ai like i do agree like even after this conversation
if you're in crypto right now like you're in a good spot uh in the grand scheme of things it's
pretty cool yeah i think you can get away with raising funds off a insane idea in crypto versus
ai like absolutely lunatic like never to work out sort of idea.
We'll raise money in crypto versus AI right now.
No, no, no.
I think it's the opposite, no?
Yeah.
Because retail seems to be bullshit.
In crypto, everyone knows the grift, but in AI, it's, like, new.
So people can't, like, they don't have data to, like, know.
No, and it speaks to how like you've been
you've been misconceived like you think that these companies and these ideas that you see
that are being funded you think they're real they're not like this shit is not being built
well you i want like is actually we know everything about frank's backstory i i realized
like i actually know nothing about rasmer even though i've been glazing rasmer for like months now so like rasper did you even go to college
yeah i went to usc
five mil
thank you see when obvi said i couldn't raise i was like eh like i don't know maybe five on 20
okay like what what brought you into crypto streaming?
I just have too much masculine aura
to succeed in traditional corporate environment.
So I kind of had to just find my way around it.
I have a serious question.
It's funny how many times in this space
I've heard this concept of VCs are retarded and they're just throwing money away without doing any diligence and vibe raising.
I have not experienced this.
I've raised a lot of money.
My last company, I raised over $250 million for it.
I'm confused. who the fuck are
you guys talking to what was your last company wait on god when in 2016 i saw the fastest growing
stock the the fastest growing stock on on on the s&p was invisalign and i found a way to
undercut their prices 70 so i was, uh, to take them on.
This is like the, the, the threat in my career.
I just like to crush incumbent pricing.
Um, and I like every $250 million for candid over, you know, until I, until I started duped.
So like, and like, there's no VC that I sat in a room with where i was just like you know chewing
gum and fucking you know just like leaving the room after they asked two questions like real
fortunate motherfucker dude i don't know what maybe it's changed then or something because
dude these early stage vcs are like actual like boot lickers like it's it's like they like have
negative brain cells well also clearly you
weren't raising into any sort of narrative right yeah you were actually building a real fucking
business that didn't fit the the scope of like seriously these guys they read the timeline
and they know like they can keep like 10 words in their head right like ai agent agi asi you know sam altman uh they don't even remember
their lps whatever right and so when you go and pitch them and you're talking about fucking
invisalign like it's going to be an uphill battle and i think actually here's a question here's a
question right so avi you raised from k5 k5 is super legit very very like top tier vc right do you think if you
hadn't raised from k5 before you started talking to these other brain dead vcs and you started
cled and you had the token and you walked into k5 and you just like hung up the call or left the
room after they asked you a couple questions do you actually think that they would be chasing you down the fucking hallway i i love i love k5 i love keenan i love michael they're literally the goats
okay but and this is no shade to them but like they did not have enough info on me nitrility
and clad to give me a check they gave me a check because i walked into that meeting and
did i i played the part.
I'm going to be 100% real. But you said you waited three years.
I talked to VCs for three years, right?
So I didn't play the game until literally fucking, what was it, winter of last year now?
Yeah, like I didn't play that game.
I only started playing the game once I figured out what it was.
And then it was hard.
Yeah.
I must try this. I try this this negging strategy i've like never done it yeah you have to do it it's it's easy mode yeah and look i love i think keenan and michael like are literally some
of the best vcs in the valley like they they don't ever call me like if i need something i will call
them they're like super super chill i'll be hold on a second can you can you just like can you just play the movie for the entire
room right now can you tell us how you raised from k5 like just walk us through what happened
uh it was me and my boy uh max we walked in the room um we max was my old co-founder of the
company we walked in the room it was the battery Battery San Francisco. Keenan was asking about metrics on the company. I didn't answer any of his questions and started
talking to him about what food he was going to eat after. And then he recommended us a Japanese
place. I left. We didn't answer any questions or talk about the company once. And then over the
phone a couple of days later, he gave me a call and said they were interested in throwing a term
sheet. They read through the deck and the memo and that was basically it um yeah wait are you serious
this is like insane like this doesn't fucking make no sense to me no it's the back channel
it's the back channeling it's the back channel that's the back channel no no it's the 2400 elo
if i'm being honest we do have like i i have to just say this for the
record like i do think i'll be you're sensationalizing a little bit in your storytelling
no no no this is literally what happened word for word we did not talk about the company at all when
we met in person we had one phone call before that where i gave like the brief overview of
the company with like no metrics no nothing i. I sent the slide deck and a memo.
I waited a couple of weeks and then I kept sending them pictures of other
term sheets.
I was getting only,
only because I think this is going to be entertaining for the,
for everyone listening in.
Cause again,
like the first rule of content,
don't be boring.
Let's role play.
So I'm whoever,
Sean,
whatever the fuck his name is at K five.
All right.
Whoever invested in you. All right, whoever invested in you
All right, we're sitting across the table from each other
Hey, obby
Yeah, good to good to meet you bud good to meet you
Really really liked your very interesting, you know one pager on your fucking company
How many users do you have? How do you answer that dude? That was sick?
Yeah, that was sick. Um, i'm really curious where he got those shoes and i shit you not
that did not happen bobby i shit you not i shit you not i was in bobby i was in a meeting with
sebastian thrun who started a waymo and he was raising for his new um fucking startup called
sage and i've literally heard this story a hundred times there was this vc with ketchup on his
fucking shirt and he kept on getting asked questions about the actual company instead of answering the questions he kept saying
why the fuck is there ketchup on your shirt and he walked off with a 50 million dollar term sheet
for sage i shit you not bro this is how this shit works silicon valley the tv show was 100
right everything you see in that tv show 100 right% right. It's literally brain dead, dude.
Yeah. And I want to point out that they don't actually remember anything from that conversation
about it. They don't. They don't. If you were to entertain the questions, all you have to do is
spend $20,000 for someone to design the most immaculate deck and boom, the company is stamped.
Well, there's another way you do it is
you make them follow you on socials and you just post pictures of where you are every single day
on socials and you take meetings with all the big firms so like how i did is i took pictures
in front of sequoia and a16z for four days wait you were doing that for clinton no i was doing
that for wait wait i was doing that for like before even when we were raising but you met
you met with i did yeah of course you meet with yeah, of course. You meet with them, right?
You don't have to.
You also like take...
Yeah, because you actually got it like that, Avi.
That's why...
I don't give a fuck what you're creating.
I want to buy a course from Avi on how to raise.
I love that like Avi was meeting with a second tier associate at A16Z and posting photos
of the fucking front of the building and using that as...
My brain wouldn't even go there.
That's fucking...
That's amazing.
Good job, Avi.
These things fucking work, dude.
In my brain, I have to tell you, in my brain, the amount of personal shame I would feel
knowing that I'm meeting with this third-tier fucking associate that has no idea how to write, how to, how to invest.
Yeah.
Zero clue.
Oh, they have to ask your card questions too.
But like your brain, your brain was like, no, no, no.
I'm at A16Z.
That's what matters.
Well, yeah.
You have to use it, dude.
Like, look, the raising game is literally all FOMO.
So you just have to stack posts on Telegram.
Yeah, but it seems a little fucked.
I'm not going to lie, Avi.
Right?
It seems a little bit crossing the line when you're saying it.
Especially you're saying it so brazenly.
I think you've got to be a little more thoughtful.
It's not going to stop him from raising it.
I just have to say how I see it.
It's a little bit much. Frank, I can back this all up, right? Because I actually have a fucking problem. I just have to say how I see it. It's a little bit much.
Frank, I can back this all up, right? Because I actually have a fucking problem.
I believe you.
But if you have people like Ryan Breslow, for example, who I know personally, and he's writing
books on how to raise from VC. And in those books, he's saying that you should never have a second
meeting with VCs and you should treat them like shit. And he raises a billion dollars the next day. It doesn't actually matter what you say about VCs. In fact, some VC that's
watching this is going to hear this and be like, wow, this fucking founder doesn't even need my
money. Clearly. He's just going to build and build a billion dollar company. And they're going to
throw me a fucking term sheet in the email cold the next day. That's how this shit works, dude.
They're going to hear this conversation and go, wow, Avi Patel is a fucking confident motherfucker, because that's true,
and he's going to build a billion dollar company, because that's true,
and they're going to give me a term sheet the next day,
because they know that I don't give a fuck about them. They want
you to not care about them. They want the power
dynamic. That's like their signal, almost.
Yeah, everything
he's saying is straight up facts.
Bet.
Yeah, look.
Well, and Frank, on the flip side... the game is a game i guess you know i
yeah on the flip side those are vcs will try to fuck you over if you totally valid by the way
yeah i agree they will lead you on and make you feel like an idiot yeah if you don't think it's
yeah yeah i went through that for years dude i went through vcs telling me they were super
interested in the product and then taking fucking 30 meetings with me and then wasting my time and pretending like they're an invest and that they never throw you a term sheet you're
just sitting with your fucking hand in your ass i've had four term sheet pulled away from me
because i didn't get enough term sheets like these things happen like they will just lead you on if
you don't play these games and play these power dynamics and rules like it's just like the name
of the game sadly it's a fucking terrible system it's awful but that's how people do it i'm
happy to fucking sell a course on it because it's actually mind-blowing how these people like think
that vc is so like intellectually secure when this i have i have a question if a vc ever asks
you for a diligence request what is your response well you have to give it to them but you also don't
want to give them everything i'm not even kidding this is how you do it right you put in a folder
for example,
let's say you're raising a pre-seed round, right?
And they're asking you for like your stats,
statistics, everything.
Sorry, they don't even ask you that.
Usually ask for like a,
it's like a Dropbox link
with all of your paperwork in it.
You'll make four separate folders.
You'll put two files, each and every folder.
One of them has your incorporation documents.
One of them has your safe note.
And then two of them,
one of them has your slide deck
and the next one has your memo and that's it and you don't give them any of your
contracts nothing because the second they start reading into everything and taking five years to
respond to their fucking questions they all back out because they're spineless dude so you try not
to give them as much and if look a good vc i want to give everything to right but the reality is that
these people are literally spineless and the more info
you give them the less the less likely you're gonna actually get a check from them that's the
not gonna lie bro i i feel like a real i will say this like i i respect avi but bobby's raised like
125 times more than avi has but hold on a second i think like avi has not faced the reality of a
series a and when he gets
there yeah what i'm doing that now yeah series is completely different right like i'm facing
those conversations right now where yeah right you're talking i'm talking specifically seed and
that's it nothing else series a is a different ball game yeah but by the way let me tell you
like when dupe raised money like our deck just we we put a deck together we didn't share anything
and it just went viral in WhatsApp
in some VC group, and we were able to close very quickly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I agree with that.
I'm just saying when you get to your next round,
these tactics do not work.
Correct.
They're much, much different.
Yeah, yeah.
Look, if you have to write a book on it,
there's different levels to the game.
Your Series A is much different than your pre-seed and seed.
Your pre-seed and seed are the exact same,
and then Series B to D or whatever is the same,
and then there's IPO, right?
These things are all different categories of how you have to raise.
Although I will say, Dupe has not raised a Series A,
and when we do, there are some very interesting takeaways
from this conversation that
i might i might try just see what happens i'm still experimenting dude i don't even know i'm
so i'm so i'm so i'm so interested uh and and i feel like i've i'm you know like i feel like i
have enough aura that i could pull it off but just for the entertainment factor i want to come back
on a space you know what after we raise an a and confirm or deny that this worked okay are we got
another people we got two people up that are very interesting uh eric and peace um peace heaven
decks a lot of you guys have heard of it and then eric sperm racing what oh my god eric eric do you
want to start like how would you want to weigh in on this? Wait, what are we weighing on? Oh, damn.
I thought you were going to come in with a burning hot tank.
How did you raise your round for sperm
racing? Tell me about it right now.
Without any context, tell me about it.
How did I raise my round for sperm racing?
Yeah. I just
talked to some friends and they gave us a lot of money.
Okay, thanks. Alright, you can leave now,
bro. Thank you.
Dude, that was unreal. Holy shit. Eric, you can leave now, bro. Thank you. Dude, that was unreal.
Holy shit.
Eric, you're my best friend in real life. This guy's the goat,
okay? But we all know this is how
the game fucking worked. It's bullshit.
Wait, wait, wait.
No, no, no. We didn't
grift that hard.
Peace, what's your thoughts?
Yo, peace,
my light bag is down, bro.
What the fuck are you going to do about it?
No, not the internet.
Not the FinBags internet.
Okay.
Well, Eric, I mean, were you listening to what Avi was saying about VCs and seed stage?
Like, how debaucherous it's gotten?
Like, what's your take on that?
I mean, wait, why is it debaucherous?
I don't get it.
Like, goodcomings are always going to get funny.
Avi, how is it debaucherous?
You're the one with a really hot take on this.
Eric, you know the games, bro.
You know the games that are played during these meetings.
Like, you walk in the meeting, act...
Bro, you drop out of fucking high school, okay? Like like from the outside in well no no no of course you gotta
act a little bit of course you gotta like say like you gotta like like trains like a couple
times but like other than that though it's like honestly like if you're building a good company
right like you're gonna get money i feel like just most companies actually too many companies
shouldn't get funded but like at the same time it's like i feel like it's time scale and then also how how big a company could get i think
every time you try to raise you can and the reason for that is because you dropped out of
middle school because you got kicked i don't think i dropped out of middle school i think it's like
one we acted really autistic in these meetings and then also no and then also at the same time
i think it's like know how to sell a vision or like having like a long time
My entire plan. I love you. Let people talk. Let people talk calm down calm down go keep going Eric
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, am I proving something?
So I just came on because I saw a couple people that are like friends. No, no, you're good. You're good
I just obvious just yeah yeah i couldn't hear both
people at the same time shit but yeah well obvi it does sound like eric said he had to pitch his
his company right like he he actually seemed it seems like he sold the vision he's he he uh he
outlined some shit right yeah yeah don't get me wrong er Eric has had to pitch his companies and everything like that, but
it doesn't change the fact that the game is still
the game, and we're all having to play this
stupid VC game.
Eric, what type of footwear
did you wear to these meetings?
I wear a Lemmy McQueen
Crocs.
No fucking way!
I'm telling you, bro! No, but, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. That's not even, like'm telling you bro. I'm
That's not even like a good question
Also, I also don't believe in clothing so I actually showed up to these pitch meetings nude
No, look you can show up in Crocs and stuff and it's fine. That's not that's not the substance of the discussion
No, I think clothing is a social construct.
I don't think it's clothing. I love it.
I love it.
Holy shit. I'm learning a lot.
If you showed up... I think clothing is a social construct.
I'd show up nude.
But it is true that if you
show up in
high-quality
haute couture,
that is a negative signal. so you never want to overdress
for these meetings i'm more reacting to the substance of the conversations with these vcs
i'm just shocked at the things i'm hearing on this call and i feel like most vcs are really
retarded don't get me wrong most vcs are retarded but like at the end of the day it's like
it is kind of like a game ball so So good companies are always going to get funded.
Bad companies are not.
That, yeah, I agree with that.
Welcome up here.
Is your internet good now?
It's good now.
What's good?
How are you? Good, man.
Look, we talk about VCs a lot.
I don't know if you want to weigh in there.
I also honestly love to talk about Heaven Dex.
It's been a minute since we last talked, but yeah.
It's been a minute since we last talked.
Lots has changed. I actually have no experience with vcs which is like kind of ironic like directly to ico in public um which is kind of interesting you know like i literally
like have only had like a fresh experience like approaching the market en masse you know um so i
have like that perspective of just like going directly to public, which I think is like kind of like where things are shifting towards, you know?
Um, but yeah, lots to talk on the heaven front.
Um, yeah.
I mean, what's the latest with heaven?
Like we'll, we'll, it's my space.
We'll sidetrack a little bit.
What's the latest with heaven?
Yeah.
I mean, heaven, uh, I think is an embodiment of like the ICM that I want to see.
Like, I think ultimately heaven is an ICM project in and of itself.
And it's like exactly what I would want to see an ICM project doing.
Like Rasmur, I think like had like this strangely prophetic,
like stream of consciousness where he's like,
everything has to go towards like being a hundred percent because if it's not
like, what are we really doing here?
And I'm also curious to hear Rasmur's thought process behind that tweet,
but it's like,
like my goal with heaven has always just been to embody like exactly what I want to see in the space. And so like, we literally launched it, you know, through the
launchpad itself. We're earning our fees the exact way that we want creators to earn the fees.
All the revs going directly back into the flywheel. I think heaven had like a really strong
start, obviously, a really rough start but then like
directly post ico like really started to gain traction um afterwards um but frankly like i
think uh it launched at a time that there's like a lot of um a lot of changes happening in the
market right now and i think like a lot of people are kind of yeah like i i'm sure everyone's seen
that chart of like the amount of total traders just like going down significantly i think like the narrative brutal chart i have a
question i have a question about heaven now by the way it's like you guys yeah sorry i don't
mean to cut off but everyone's been talking for a while just keep it interesting um you guys had
like a pretty rough start as you mentioned and then it picked up meteorically and now you're in
this phase where okay like the initial excitement on that first rally is like cooled off how are you thinking
about what what needs to change or what you've learned since launching like what's your approach
on the strategy now yeah so many things have been gleaned like since launching and like to be honest
i think like a lot of the way that it picked up it got a little bit too euphoric you know and it's
like yes we're pushing a bunch of rev like yes like there's all this stuff happening but like it almost i i honestly
feel like we've settled back to like a price point that like feels a bit more like manageable you
know whereas like before i was like fucking like all gas like there was there wasn't like cohesive
like ecosystem narratives to like rally behind like it it like just fucking started running you
know well you talked a lot
about icm but so far there hasn't been a lot of icm do you feel like that's something that the
market is saying or is that something that you know you guys want to work on or it's not as
important like how are you seeing that i definitely think icm is important like there's been a lot of
like reflections um by the team like one i think like it's also like you don't want to like be
flooding the market like i think magic was like honestly like one i think like it's also like you don't want to like be flooding
the market like i think magic was like honestly like one of the best icm cooks that we've seen
in terms of like being directly aligned to crypto traders and like at least for me like that thesis
of like what they put out yesterday is it makes a lot of sense it's like directly leveraging the
flywheel it's like pokemon to crypto card overlap i'm not sure if you saw it
um but like i think like rolling out cooks like in in a way that's not like flooding the market
is kind of important um but in general like i also have a lot of reflections on uh icm in general
like i think yeah what's a hot take really difficult i guess like my hot take right now
and i'm not sure how hot it is but like i think it's
really difficult to um roll out like a super high quality cook on a bonding curve in today's
environment um interesting keep going yeah yeah the game is is really solved um and as all of us
know and i think like that's why the trader the total trader graph is going down and down and down it's like solved um and so what that means is like if if you do launch like there's so many
like earnest devs that are approaching us like so many like working on awesome stuff and it's
like there there is a point where i'm like okay let's say this dev launches right they buy 20
on the dev wallet they lock it in streamflow they post the site the
twitter everything and then it like it takes one person on axiom to like multi-wallet with 10
wallets that all have different track records you don't know they're connected like and then they
have like most of the supply from this person who has like earnestly launched this thing you know
uh and then like not to mention like afk volume bots and like all the different ways that curbs have kind of been like um pillaged and so there has been a lot
of like deep thought in terms of like the way that like obviously we have a bunch of icm cooks that
are like you know raring to go out but it's also like um taking a bit of time to like just be
thoughtful about how we're actually doing this because there's a lot of like lessons and insights that have been gleaned and like I think everyone in the space right now it's
it's regardless of light you know it's like people are complaining about like lack of runners on
heaven but like since heaven has come out there haven't really been runners anywhere and like
it's becoming more and more rare for new pairs to like actually like rise above the surface and
part of it is like yeah people have stopped believing in things and and that's just like that but there's also like people have stopped believing in things because
the mechanisms at which we can like accumulate supply and dump on each other have gotten so
hyper efficient you know like years ago it was just like using front ends and then it's like oh
telegram trading bots and everything's evolved it's gotten so efficient now that like i i'm
starting to feel like we need like to start
playing like fundamentally different games and so like whether that's like um you know icos like
whether it's um you know dutch auctions whether it's like something in between like there's just
a lot of rumination like going on internally about like how to actually be rolling these things out
and like i think like a lot of people are charting heaven,
like, oh, it's like GP or whatever,
where this thing goes up and down.
Yeah, I see this comparison a lot, yeah.
It's a lot, right?
But it's like, GP was getting 7% of Bonk Fund's revenue.
We're 30 times more profitable than Bonk Fund.
Like, Bonk Fund is solely on the bonding curve.
Like, we're an AMM, you know?
So it's like, not only are we 30 times more profitable
than Bonk Fund, but we're also 100% of the revenue so i think like the the degree to which that ratchets up
like is insane like i like no one i don't think anyone at this point thinks that heaven is just
like a launch pad that's coming in trying to like crime shit up and push it as fast as possible
and so i think like putting us on that same fractal of being like ah yeah like they're you
know it's their time is done they had the moment and they didn't send shit and like now the momentum is going to ship it literally
takes like one runner and like like everyone has amnesia you know so i i really don't think it's
like necessary i mean if you want to do that they can do it but i think like honestly like a lot of
the space is just like pretty deeply traumatized you know like every time we believed in anything
it's like there's some fucking multi-wall to dump on us and i think like ultimately like i think it's it's speaking to like i think
we need to start playing different games fundamentally what those games are i think
like they're starting to evolve but like what i'm looking at is like how did we actually deploy
light you know like every like i'm saying like we're trying to embody every single aspect of
like what we're doing and yet we didn't deploy light on the bonding curve you know pump didn't deploy pump on the bonding curve you know and so
it's like it's like to be requesting creators to do something that we're actually not embodying
it's like well maybe we should look at like what we are doing like we deployed it as an ico you
know it's like is that the thing that scales everywhere no like i still think bonding curves
definitely have a place especially for like solo devs who are bootstrapping something.
But I'm ruining a lot of the different ways
that our space has been deploying things.
And Pump worked when there was low tooling,
but now having something launched,
like a super legitimate company launched a 10K market cap,
I think is a recipe for getting dunked on, ultimately.
So then the only question I have then,
and we can keep going with other people too is is do you feel like the thing that's going to make launch pads win going
forward is just a runner or do you think it's going to be a feature or a new type of way to
new way to launch a coin like i what where does it fall in that spectrum like is it the coin just
like fuck it we got to get another runner is it oh we need to make a feature that's going to make a lot more runners like how are you
thinking about this i've been posting this picture a lot of like this kid burnt like he's like in a
hole and he's like burning the the ladder pegs to get out of the hole to like keep warm for a fire
it's like this like really short-term thinking it's like we need to have the fucking we need a
runner like and i feel that like i, like, the light whales chat.
It's just like, just fucking crime something.
Like, just send something up.
But it's like, that is literally burning the ladder pegs. Because it's like, the team crimes something, right?
It goes crazy.
Everyone, oh, yeah, the ecosystem's back.
What's the next runner?
But then it's like, everyone starts looking to the team.
And I think, like, we saw that with Bonk.
Like, we saw that with, like, Soulport Town, where it's just like, okay.
Yo, but isn't that what you accuse ben pastranach of not doing i don't i don't really think i was accusing ben pastranach
of not cramming something i've never been like ben needs to crime coins ever like what what do
you mean wait so but i guess like what what was your critique of ben i might i might just be wrong
uh my first critique of ben was uh keeping Ben was keeping metadata in the deploys.
For the first month, literally every single deploy had the metadata of the Twitter user that launched it.
And then people were just camping metadata and destroying these coins.
Literally, coins would open with 20 mil of volume, and they'd be hovering at 500k market caps,
just getting pillaged again and again
and again like all the believers of like the believe ecosystem who are like bidding all the
new coins like it felt like ai renaissance v2 like this like a moment in time and i'm like bro take
the fucking metadata off because like literally snipers are just like slowly piling out of your
coins and like there's a bunch of different critiques but i've never been like yeah has any has any critiques changed since you've launched or how are you like now you're what a week in like
has perspective changed yeah 100 i think like in in hindsight like honestly like having a token out
it's it it sucks to just like get flamed i i think like the thing is like ben pasternick is
is kind of like a hilarious guy to troll like it
almost feels like it's like different than anything else like it's not like it's actually like
it's not like you're actually putting your heart and so on to like really despising the guy it's
more just like kind of like he's like a funny dude to troll but at the same time it's like
i have more compassion for him like it's it's a lot you know it's like you're you're building a
thing and i heard that he was like giving heaven
like its flowers on the last space.
So like, it's like a multifaceted problem,
but I do think like being native
and like being close to the issues is important.
And like the issues are pretty nuanced.
Like when you really start like pulling back the layers
in terms of like the mechanisms
that are being used to launch,
like there's a lot of nuance to it.
So yeah, I think I have like more compassion. I think that's like probably one of the mechanisms that are being used to launch. There's a lot of nuance to it. So yeah, I think I have more compassion. I think that's
probably one of the biggest takeaways.
I have a question. What is the point of a launchpad?
What is the point?
Yeah, what's the point?
What is the point of heaven as a launchpad?
In the competitive environment like
it's it's like it's i guess it's like less heaven but sure you can go that direction like what is
the question's pretty damn simple what is the the job of a launch pad
like okay i guess like from a core practical perspective it would be to like gather liquidity and seed it in a certain way
that can be traded on a amm gather liquidity for and and seed it for whom
for whatever token wants to be launched right so like a big part of what i think is like missing
from every single launch pad is a lot of these launch pads are making
money. Believe makes money. Heaven makes money. Pump makes money. And like, uh, like you don't
have to crime a coin, but I actually think this like idea of not having a runner and like how
not having a runner is like, or having a runner is actually not that important is I think like a
very disagreeable point. Like there's ways to make runners happen by using revenue, uh, to increase the odds of,
of, of getting market makers involved, increase, like infuse it into marketing budgets.
You don't have to buy the token, but there are ways to use the revenue that you're earning
to get attention to the launch pad.
Like, why is that
not important or being done yeah like what are you supposed to do with the 25 mil that you raised
you know i mean other than that 22 mil but i want to actually understand like the specific uh
implementation plan of like how would you spawn a runner because i've never said that like having a
runner is not important i've just said that like directly criming like hard bundling a coin and for sure
for sure that's that's like proper illegal like that's straight straight up like we can't do that
but but like i'm in agreement with you and i'm actually curious to hear like um how you would
like like when you're saying like okay i'll tell you what i'd do like take one of your coins pick
pick a winner first of all you have to do the hard job as a founder of this launch pad to pick a
winner.
Okay.
Like you have to see something in some founder or some token where the
narrative is strong.
The community is strong and you feel like they are unfairly priced in the
market.
And then go find a PR person,
get them on every podcast,
help them buy ads,
put them,
you know,
like buy billboards,
like do the shit that clearly does for themselves.
Like, why wouldn't you do that?
You earn money from fees, right?
Like you, like, and you, you get the attention of the entire.
Crypto market.
The moment, like, just to give you a sense, like when, when our token ran,
uh, I think we were listed on moonshot.
Like the next day push notifications went
out to hundreds of thousands of people saying oh like dupe is running you know is is like 15x or
10x whatever it was the price was yesterday compared to where it was yesterday that was a
marketing moment for belief because everyone was looking at believe tokens, not just do, but every single token. So, so like market your coins or don't exist. There's no re like I've all, I've often questioned
why does believe have a token? It competes with every other token. Why does heaven have a token?
It competes liquidity with every other token i i've like tried to talk ben into
killing his fucking token to be completely honest yeah bro because like what's the fucking point
so if you're not going to use your revenue to create runners why do you exist creating a coin
is not that is is not that difficult right it just it just isn't. The tech is there.
People know how to do it.
Most people probably wouldn't do it
because most people are lazy.
But if the job of a launchpad is not to be,
like, think about, okay,
like the thing I try to tell Ben
is what is the job of Y Combinator?
You think Y Combinator gives startups
any like sage advice that is not readily available
to the entire world on fucking
YouTube. No, their job is to give you enough information and gusto within three months to
create something that can be put into a deck in a room at the end of the three months with a hundred
of the best investors in the Valley. So you have their attention for two minutes, literally you
get two minutes to pitch them and like you have their attention for two minutes literally you get two minutes to pitch them
and like you have their attention and you raise your round that is their job they don't really
tell you much new information like there's almost nothing that y combinator uh advisors give startups
that is not readily readily available so their job is to create attention and give you that initial
burst of capital if the launch pads today are doing the initial burst of capital and not doing the attention,
I don't fucking get it.
Help me understand why.
Bobby, I want to throw in, I want to throw something in here.
YC actually does more than that.
They create winners, right?
They find the five companies, every batch that they can write points.
Great point. Exactly. Yeah. And they send that shit to the moon. They find the five companies every batch that they can run all the fucking reference to.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And they send that shit to the moon.
And so like,
if you have a launch pad that isn't also a cabal,
like what the fuck is it?
Right.
I want to,
I want to just speak.
I think Bobby,
there might be some charge in,
in regards to your involvement with other launch pads or something here um but i agree
like in large part like software like the software that it takes to launch something especially with
like meteor or radium anyone can create a launch pad in two seconds like legitimately two seconds
obviously like heaven has more nuance to it like we have our own amm that's like a massive cook on
top of it it makes us far more profitable profitable than believe or any kind of like cloned
bonding curve at the core of your question. Like what is a launchpad? It's a way to like
gather and see liquidity. But how does a launchpad actually differentiate itself? Like how does,
how is a launchpad successful? I think that does come in incubation. Like, and that's like a big
thing that Apewood's been preaching is like the ultimate differentiating factor of all these
launchpads is going to be like, who can you you incubate how can you incubate them and like how can you properly platform them i think there's a
little bit of like um there's a little bit of like serendipity to it like it's not like uh dupe was
just like completely like stiff arming their way into like the limelight and like there wasn't a
degree to which like it aligned with like the cultural norm at the time like there is a degree to which like you need to kind of hit a moment you know and at the same
time like there's a lot that you can do to platform platform runners like I think it's like heavens in
our first like 10 days of actually being live as a platform you know and so it's like yeah we're
building out that incubation side with starseed Like that's ultimately what it's going to be is like a accelerator incubator
for, for founders and to like platform launches.
So I'm in agreement with you.
I don't think it's like a, um,
I think that we have like completely fleshed out right now,
but I think that's where everything's going.
Why don't you just buy like five Roy Lees?
You got to hit the A16Z model.
Dude, I start buying up the timeline.
You slipped in shells. Peace. I told you this shit yesterday, dude. You fly to San the A16Z model. Dude, I start buying up the timeline. You slipped in shells.
Peace.
I told you this shit yesterday, dude.
You fly to San Francisco.
You go sit in Founders, Inc.
You find five Roy Leaks.
You'll do it in a day.
And then you cabal the fuck out of them and make it YC on chain.
I think it's 100%.
This is so doable.
Yeah, I'm in agreement.
That means you will.
Sorry, Peace. I'm for like getting mad at you
but i'm just like you're down you're right yeah dang you'll find five royalees is crazy bro i'm
not gonna lie because like if there were that many fucking royalees then there'd be that many
royalees i only know like fucking three of these kids bro so i do also have like a point like
because like when i first came on i was also talking about like the mechanisms of like which
we're actually deploying um because like at the same time it's
like ben right now is like pushing we need net new to net new deployers like we need net new deployers
like just gotta get more gotta get more people gotta get more people but it's also like what
are we bringing those net new deployers into like what is the system 100 is properly ready to like
be because like because like ultimately it's like let's say you have like
some a kid right a banger like just can communicate amazingly they have like a great product they can
raise money from venture whenever they want why the fuck right now like in in its current state
like why the fuck would that kid launch a coin on a dbc at like 20k and have the most like insane
like like literal apes just like constantly in their dms from that
point forward like spamming everything like every aspect of their coin is just like getting
criticized and like their product and from that point forward you're like a live publicly traded
company getting like murked you know dude my my criticism of like net new deployers which i think
is the wrong strategy and it's a strategy that believe deployed.
And I've spoken to Ben about this.
So I'm not breaking news to him when he listens to this eventually is he did that, right?
Like he went and found a star that Sam Altman himself invested in and advises in Orgo.
And they launched to a bunch of fanfare and look at their fucking price action, dude.
Look at their coin. Exactly. It is is garbage it has gone to 1.9 it's probably going to dip under a million
if and like this guy is not doing anything to help himself because he doesn't really talk about his
product and this is why i think runners are important they have to be manufactured but you
pick the ones that can do it themselves and And then you double their chances by helping them. That needs to happen. It needs to happen. It should have happened three months
ago and it hasn't happened. And it's, everyone has suffered for it. Like, like, look, like,
like Avi tried very hard to get a lot of founders to leave the Believe ecosystem. Like he worked
really hard. Very, very, very, very, very hard. Right. hard right like and so but it is a great
case study of a type of token that you would want to make a runner like obviously we we we compete
for liquidity but i will say that like he is good with his community he talks a lot he talks about
his product a lot he ships a lot like it's the kind of candidate you would look at and say, Hmm, I wonder like when,
when Duke went to, you know, when, when, when we, when, when Duke went to 80 million,
the entire ecosystem was pumping and everyone was doing like, you know, 500 K to a, to 5 million a
day in, in liquidity. What if I just did that one thing again? And let me, let me help Avi with his
marketing. Let me set up some podcasts for him. let me, let me help Avi with his marketing.
Let me set up some podcasts for him.
Let me buy some PR agency time with him.
Let's put him at the front of like three magazines.
Let's,
let's get him a billboard.
Like none of this is,
none of this is cabaling a coin.
None of this is criming a coin.
It's just basic marketing that would have sent Avi to the moon.
And it would have sent everyone else to the moon and it would have sent everyone
else to the moon along with it including the launch coin and like this is fucking obvious
and i don't understand why no one's doing it it's literally brain that like you anyone could
like it's creating yc on chain i don't understand why it's a hot take either like
i don't think being unbiased i think being unbiased is the most irresponsible thing you
could possibly do it's just pussy behavior like it It's as spineless of a position you could take across the board.
Guys, this is what TBPN does.
This is exactly what they do.
You just have to get someone that isn't as retarded as ThreadGuy
to go and just shill this shit every day.
By the way, what we ended up doing,
we started sponsoring people on pump like we put
our logos on a bunch of their streams i shouldn't have had to do that that should have been believe
should have said dude i need your logo in more places i'm just going to fucking pay these pump
founders and by the way imran who i think was on this call earlier is also an investor in pump
he could have set that up he's an investor in believe he could have set that up. He's an investor in Believe. He could have set that up. The whole thing is just
brain dead simple.
We've fucking thrown
three-point jet.
We've given this guy so many opportunities.
We were on the NASDAQ billboard
when Ben was in Times Square
himself. He could have walked down
his fucking apartment, wherever he's at,
his office, taken a picture of the Kled
billboard and posted it. It would have fucking sent everything to the moon like there's been so many of these opportunities
we keep sending that to him i'm not even a part of believe anymore but like i feel like it's kind
of literally losing an opportunity to not do these things when the founders are putting in all the
effort to get this like marketing all this this like community engagement done. It's like the launch pads job to create this YC on chain and no one wants to
fucking do it.
And this is how you attract the institutional investors.
The LPs are filled up with the bullshit.
And if they see that you have a track record of, Oh, this is the new model.
Let's get in early.
We don't need the middleman anymore.
They're going to start deploying capital there.
A hundred percent.
By the way, one of the things we did,
and this is something belief should have instituted
and probably put a whole bunch of elbow grease behind.
Like we started talking to liquid funds, right?
We have multiple liquid funds who've bought up a lot of dupe coin because we took the
time to find them, talk to them about what like our, our implementation, our vision,
dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
And these are like New York funds with billions of dollars under management and they are slowly buying up the coin. And that should, that should
have come from Ben, dude, right? Like peace. That should come from you for your coins. Go find
liquid funds, get them excited about your ecosystem, manufacture that liquidity, manufacture
the marketing. This is, this to me is like the ultimate point of a large thing. Here's the
other Ben's going in. Ben's trying to build tech and info right now,
which I don't even, again, I don't want to talk shit,
but that's what he's trying to do.
And then he's trying to go straight into all,
I don't even know what he's trying to do after that.
What you should do is you sit down,
you cabal the fuck out of everything,
you make YC on chain,
you say fuck the tech, fuck all of that stuff,
have a bare bones thing that makes founders
not get cooked when they launch
their coin and that's all you have to care about and then purely market the fuck out of everyone
make it so that actual investors deploying capital on chain into icm companies and then worry about
all the tech and infrastructure bullshit because that's when you need it that's when there's
thousands of people deploying exactly but no one want to do it unless you fucking actually cabal
the shit out of your initial back you need your airbnb you need your
okay what's peter's take on this he has a launch pad what's your take on on this frame of thought
yeah i mean i i definitely uh i definitely think there's a lot of charge uh left over from believe
uh happy to catch the uh happy to catch the uh the charge i mean like my perspective is i agree
i think like ultimate i mean in what abby's saying of like come all the out the charge i mean like my perspective is i agree i think like ultimate i mean and what
avi's saying of like come all the out of it i mean there's lots of definitions of what cabal
the out of it would be but i think like properly platforming like compelling narratives and like
compelling builders and founders and companies and like working with them to properly like
you know push them is super it basically lifts everything and like bobby what you're saying and
like uh you know avi and i are competing for liquidity ultimately like you barely are because like if
one of you is doing well that's pulling liquidity out of all the like slop and like bullshit that
people are trading and it's like rising ICM in general and so it's like it's not even really a
competition like if one of you is catching a W then like literally everyone in this sector is
catching a W so 100 i agree it's literally
just about platforming and so like i know there's a lot of charge with like how people are moving but
like we're pretty fucking new and we've made a lot of like really good decisions in my opinion like
there's been a lot of things that we've done right off rip and i think we're going to continue to to
be moving by the way peace i'm just curious i'm just curious i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you a question
just spit out the first number that you think comes to mind. All right.
Of total crypto liquidity.
What percentage of it do you think goes to ICM coins on a day-to-day basis?
I mean, like 3%.
0.004%.
That is the opportunity.
That is the job of the launch pad.
Marketing.
Like all the other shit is noise it's not just the marketing that's
crazy this you have it's cabal bro like i don't think you understand this is how andresen works
they are a fucking cabal this is how gary tan and yc is their cabal
that is exactly how it is and exactly how you execute on this
yeah i saw frank to answer your question i'm in agreement um yeah
and that's exactly what we were working to build out with with starseed like that's like the long
term vision is basically to to be like properly can we get confirmation here because i i know the
pr train stuff okay i hear it in your voice i i know this is what you have to do but dude you need
to do this i i you have the golden opportunity to make this shit happen.
You can fucking front run everything.
You can make this happen.
You need to literally sit down and be like, it's time to go fucking Roy Lee mode.
It's time to go Avi Patel mode.
It's time to go fucking Krishna.
It's kind of Bobby mode.
You need to go sit the fuck down and be like, dude, I'm going to go on every podcast.
I'm going to go on every stream.
I'm going to go on every single thing.
I'm going to make sure that these coins are talked about literally everywhere.
And you're going to pick five people.
And you don't have to have them in mind right now.
You might still need to find them.
But your first priority should be to go find them then, in my opinion.
Like, pick your five people.
Make it happen.
All right, let me ask you an uncomfortable question.
This is a crazy one.
But at what point do you cut your, like, right now, six, seven coin or whatever, right?
This is like a trend fucking whatever. Eight ago on tiktok it pops up everyone's telling the bonk guys cabal it cabal it and then
everyone dumps or people dump and then like it happens with bags all this stuff like what what's
the it's so gray piece how are you thinking about that like when when do you move on you're saying
like if a launch pad's trying to platform something and it
does like it's not yeah if a platform is trying to push stuff which look it's a fucking competitive
game people are doing it all this stuff at what point is it okay like the launch pad's incentives
are for new stuff to keep popping up like when does that become a thing yeah it's interesting
i mean like there's there's multiple layers to like in one layer, pump is highly incentivized to have new deploys. Like if you think of like their actual revenue
model, they make 1% when something's trading like on the bonding curve. And then post graduation,
they're making 0.05%. So it's like very, very radically worse for them to for something to
have graduated. And if you think about like, the way that's incentivizing them, like it's inherently going to incentivize them to have like basically Cupsie style trading become like pervasive. They
eat off Cupsie off like they're making way more from that happening, you know? So at heaven,
we don't have that. Like our liquidity ratio is naturally thicker. And so we don't have to have
LP fees because the LP curve is just not, it naturally scales up as if there was fees essentially. And so what that means is like, we eat all of those fees. And that's why we're like
four times more profitable than pump, like post bonding curve. And so that allows us to like,
genuinely, we don't care if, if we have like five runners and those five runners are just
fucking cooking day after day after day, we don't need to be spawning a bunch of new deploys and
having people like tumble over each other. And now, now like new deploys are great, but it's like, it's not a requirement for us to
be like deeply in the green day after day. Um, so in terms of, in terms of just like,
that's interesting. Makes sense. Okay. Mechanically it's very different with heaven because like,
that's just not how, like we're able to monetize off of like a runner, which is like, that,
that makes sense for a launch pad to be able to do like to be able to like be like yeah we have a runner this is great it's we're
all eating here versus like we're barely making any money like so yeah that's kind of the reality
with like pumps fee structure i mean we we have a golden opportunity piece binance us is listening
let's get a listing for one heaven token make a pitch for it to binance i mean this is marketing this is it you've got
binary holy motion holy motion get him on fucking i'm feeling like threat guy right now i'm not gonna
lie holy shit uh you want to bring him i mean you want to bring him up frank or no he's fully
requesting but i'm so anti the establishments yeah i'm just not gonna accept his obvious requests yeah cz's
in there for sure yeah i mean bobby i i don't i mean i don't really feel like i was half joking
i was half joking but like yeah i don't care i'll care about that okay so i i think my takeaway so
far in the launchpad stuff is that look this is my neutral perspective in the middle is that I think people throw terms around a lot, like cabal stuff up, crime stuff up in practice.
Obviously it's very different.
Like unit PCS is huge voice that helps with the bonk stuff.
You know, you're really scrappy piece.
Like it's just different across the board, but I think my takeaway is definitely all these launch pads need to embrace that.
Marketing is a big part of their value prop.
Like it just is.
It's just it's not the early pump fun days anymore where it's actually purely neutral.
At this point, it's so competitive.
All the launch pads just need to own that a big part of their job is marketing.
Yeah, I agree.
I think it's also just about like the way that you go about the marketing.
Like if it's just this is the ticker of the day, like go fucking ape it and then it candles up and down like that peep some people would call that marketing
you know but i think it's like that feels that feels super like minus ev and i think like we've
seen what happens to the launch pads that are doing that you know it's just like it's hot for
a few days and like oh they're hard shilling this one today and then it's like wait i just
fucking nuke the next day and it's like i so i think like there is a way to go about it that's like tactful and like uh and like
genuinely like working to like not just market but like incubate you know and like actually like
platform people um so yeah i i agree yeah and you're right frank it's like i think there there
was like a little bit of that like pull for me of being like yeah like i there there was like a
feeling of like purity at the beginning of pump like yeah like i there there was like a feeling of like
purity at the beginning of pump where it's like alan was never like talking about anything you
know but it's like the the the tides have turned and it's also different when you're a meme coin
launchpad versus like uh versus like an icm launchpad like inherently you know it's like you're not just
like this neutral kind of thing as these memes are ripping it's like you're there's like active builders like an ecosystem that are um are looking for resources to actually be able to like be platformed you
know so yeah i agree peace what would have happened if if you got roy lee you know his
his round was leaked and you were able to convince him to come and launch there and it crushed it like what happens after that
what do you mean like if you were able to build this marketing play that that worked out really
well for someone that had term sheets from vcs or whatever as an alternative and you were able
to get them on the platform make it a huge deal and it you know the coin shot way higher than whatever royally you know got
from a16z as paper money like what happens then you set a huge precedent yeah for sure and that's
just like the the the dominoes fall yeah i mean like to be honest like i also the royally thing
is like actually kind of an interesting thing to talk about.
Because I think like in a large, in a large sense, like there's a lot of targeting of like who has like giga attention on them off rip and like how can we get them to deploy a coin.
But there is like a little bit of like a, it feels like an ICM adjacent like celeb launch, you know, like especially like if let's say Roy Lee like were to do like a Royley creator coin instead of clueley or whatever he's talking about doing with like launch coin i don't even think
that's actually that positive ev for the platform like i i actually think like something more
interesting yes okay specs like flipped from thumbs down to thumbs up i feel something more
interesting is like like what was happening during like the ai meta like there it was like these
grassroots builders were being platformed that like wouldn't have had a platform otherwise that were working
on like super cool shit, you know?
And, and, and maybe it's not like the case where like, I think like if it opens into
like an ICO meta where like people are VC backed and able to actually like raise money
from the public to like build their thing, like, I think that makes sense.
But from a bonding curve perspective, like who are the actual people who would benefit from like launching
something on a bonding curve i think it'd be more interesting like there'd be a way more interesting
story of like this dude who was pushing this company and people faded it at first but some
people like dug and they found it and then it started growing and it's like that i think that's
like what crypto people really get off on is like this like feeling of like, wow, I noticed this.
I saw something that other people didn't see and I invested in them.
And I'm like now working to like platform the idea that I invest.
Like that's what crypto is all about in my mind is like finding the gems and like digging
beyond just like, oh, this KOL bot.
So I'm going to ape in for 20 seconds and dump.
It's like kind of coming back to like the roots of um of what makes crypto interesting in the first place and i think that's like that's
what icm affords us the ability to do and it's what ai afforded us the ability to do is like
you you see you see something and then you start building conviction based on what you see
even if the coin was deployed fucking 20 days ago it's not about like the new pair just popped up
and i'm gonna fucking like you know just fortnight scalp it for five seconds it's like peace to
reiterate your point he's he's 100 right and the reason why is because if you have someone going
from one to 100 that means like someone that's already built like a really big company going
from one to 100 then there's almost people like won't actually care about it because it's already
big you can look at viva for example it's literally a billion dollar company that has a coin range i think a
two million dollar market cap right whereas for us right we had nothing at the start of launching
cled and people like dude when i was fucking flying out to meet vcs for example i think that's
the craziest thing ever because it's going from zero to one which is way more interesting entertaining
for everyone out there to go visit right so that So that's what you need. You need like five of these kids that are like,
like you find Roy Lee before they're even Roy Lee. But if you actually get Roy Lee on chain,
it's not going to fucking do well. Like you guys, it really isn't going to bring that much
attention. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. Yeah. And that's why I think incubation is so important
because like you actually have to create a platform that people can grow into and like
be able to support them. And like my favorite thing is branding and communications
like being able to help people with the things that like that we have a strong suit in and like
onboard the creative direction and like the people who can actually like assist builders
is super fucking cool like that's what I want to do um so that's like kind of like the end state of like where everything goes i
think is is towards incubation um so yeah definitely aligned
isn't that also somewhat well like what metaplex is kind of doing though
it's just like a different what's metaplex doing put me on they have the new genesis launchpad it's
where you can do like a pre-sale or like a
special pool setup right but it's like an incubation sort of system which i feel like is
the direction the conversation is going to where it's like okay rather than launching everyone we're
now gonna have curated launches so i feel like that's kind of like against the whole icm meta
no that's not against it i mean i agree with everyone's points here though i think like you
know if the launchpads could just start being, like, the ultimate bag workers and say, hey, these are the top coins on my platform right now and just start going off for those builders, I think they'd have way more success in, like, currently everything else that they're doing.
Wait, no, that's not against ICM at all, bro.
I feel like that's, like, the most pro-ICM take ever.
Like, if I started a launchpad tomorrow, the way I would do is I'd pick four people.
I would pick them as, like, the initial YC batch one. You call batch one you call it yc on chain batch one that's like what you call it
publicly right and you shill the fuck out of them you make them the absolute runners and you don't
let anyone launch at all until these companies are fucking huge they're going to be talked about
everywhere and only then do you ever considering bringing anyone else on board that's like the
only time you ever consider it.
That's how I would do a launch.
Bingo.
100%.
And that's actually what Ben did at the beginning.
But for some reason, Ben didn't understand what made it work in the beginning.
The reason why he changed that is because when you have 5,000 launches and you have a coin up that's printing off of all their fees, it's very enticing because you're making a lot of money every day right but
the actual smarter way to play this that's not as extractive at the start is do this curated thing
and then fuck it dude if you want to fucking extract go launch a coin after and it's gonna
be way bigger than anything believe you want but ben ben simultaneously had the launch coin bought
and then he would like have the old like the ones he considered legit on the app so it was
kind of the best of both worlds but then i think like the bot for i don't even think i don't know
if it even works anymore it doesn't he doesn't even like really engage with the community at
all so i think like yeah i think they're trying to like do i don't know like actually like i don't
even have any info on this despite being like the number one uh coin on the app right now so yeah
despite being like the number one
quote on the app right now.
So, yeah.
Relax, Krish.
Stop fucking calling.
Yo, okay, I'm sorry, Bob.
We're like...
Just chill the fuck out, bro.
It's midnight, you know?
Like, we'll see what happens in the morning.
No shade, Bobby,
but like, you know,
we're like alternate between, you know,
it's whatever. It's the prediction market meta, market meta okay it's like you know it's it's
it's yeah who the fuck is buying bobby's coin
who just said that kick them out right now he just said the liquid funds dude like i didn't
even realize this is a strat like i just i don't even know who owns my coin, to be real with you. Dude, dupe's on a fucking comeback right now, bro.
That shit is, like, prime to send.
Listen, do you think I want a bunch of people holding $10 worth of dupe in my coin so that the next 20% drops freaks them out?
Like, nah.
I'm going after people who want 10% of dupe.
I could give a fuck about, you know, like some some guy putting in ten dollars and freaking
out every minute and like getting in my dms and giving me death threats because our coin is down
30 40 percent no that is the content right there everyone that's not the fact that's like not the
game i don't know i feel like you have more fiduciary motivation with those death threats in your DMs. I don't. I tell them to go fuck themselves
and I have full-on threads
with them. And I check
in from time to time and remind them that they're
losers and broke and
to stop fucking coming into my DMs.
No, I do not respect that.
Sounds like you're about to get
some DMs back. I'm going gonna jump um thank you for having me frank
uh always a pleasure man razmer great to meet you dog uh great to meet you guys really great
jamming with you appreciate all the feedback and um yeah we'll definitely be implementing it so
great to meet you guys talk soon good to meet you bud on the death threats thing like uh what's that
now now you're like a couple months in you know uh bobby since when the initial euphoria and the
ups and the downs like how have you how are you thinking about stuff like that now like it sounds
like you have a mature take on it but you mean when i tell people to go fuck themselves yeah was
that like an initial thing or is it like
a learned learned habit over time would you like me to send you screenshots from today
no way dude holy yeah like i i have zero respect for anyone who comes like i literally like while
like last week i had this guy in my inbox, constantly telling me to go fuck my mother.
It was, like, shit like this, you know?
And I just don't play that game.
I don't.
It's entertaining, though, because you can convert these people into lovers of the coin.
What I do personally, at least, I'll go to all, like, if it's someone that, like, has any, you know, merit and has, like, actually invested in the coin, and they're a fucking mass hater of it, I'll just like turn them into lovers of the coin.
Like I've done.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're working, you're working too hard, bro.
There's so much money out there.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Correct.
If you have like downtime to respond to messages.
This guy, this guy bought at, this guy bought at like, this guy, this guy bought like 15 million. Well, Clyde still needs to nuke, though. This guy bought like 15 million.
Well, Clyde still needs to get to 80 million, so calm down.
But importantly, this guy bought like 20 million market cap or something,
and he sold it at four and a half last week because the whole market was bleeding.
And now I just periodically every day go
into his inbox to remind him that he's a fucking idiot and that's it like this i get joy from that
because he told me to go fuck my mother like that is the kind of thing that i just like don't respect
i have no interest in making him a holder keeping him as a holder of our coin i'd rather go to like
there's so much money out there guys just go to liquid funds get real buyers of your coin and the volatility will solve itself over time um if you're depending
on like people buying ten dollars worth of your coin and like getting euphoric when it gets to
forty dollars that's just that's i don't know what game that is but unity though bro like all these i
think every person like i don't know how to...
Without sounding cringe or gay, I think every person
kind of matters.
In a couple seconds, if you can convert someone into a lover
just by responding to their DM in a nice way,
then it honestly just strengthens
the community pretty hard.
Totally, Avi. Let me go into your DMs
and tell you to go fuck your mother.
Let's wait for you to really...
I will sit there and say,
how's your day?
And I'll have a genuine conversation with you.
You fucking won't.
Jesus Christ.
Shut up.
Stop self-bating yourself.
No, it's true.
I swear.
I swear it's true.
It's true.
I honestly believe the obvious.
On the flip side,
this is going to sound crazy,
what I'm about to say,
but the DMs uh in silicon valley you have people trying to probe like if you're down to go to the
sauna this is true this is right explain that i don't need to explain anymore i'm i am dead
serious these vcs have some like devious alts that'll hit you in your DMs.
Try to either set you up for blackmail
find out if you have your knee pads already.
Wait, Speck, have you heard about the gay poker nights or no?
Oh, yeah.
Nice. Okay.
Should be quiet as fuck.
I'm just pissed off. fuck I'm just pissed off I'm just pissed out that
Polycule is higher than dupe right now
it's really pissing me off
hey Dev mentioned Price
no Chris
Chris brought it up now I'm pissed
I'm just taking a fact
no offense
I'm sorry alright I'm just saying a fact. No offense. I'm sorry.
All right.
All right, Stafford, bro.
Yeah, we can end it.
It was getting good.
I mean, but yeah.
Oh, did I just fuck that shit up or what?
No, you're fine.
Dude, let them beef publicly.
I feel like it's entertaining.
You guys should start fucking.
There's no beef. There's start fucking. There's no beef.
There's no beef.
There's no beef.
Honestly, I think we just figured out the juice, Frank.
And by we, I mean you.
Thanks.
No, the spaces are good.
Okay, so we'll do a wrap.
All right, all right.
I'll talk about why we're doing this.
Well, two things.
One, I don't have the energy that the boys have to do the streaming,
but I do like talking to smart people.
And I think there's not a lot of these type of combos all the time.
And so, yeah, I think the next one we're going to do like this, we did the last two very focused on ICM.
The next one I want to do is just talking about the state of on-chain.
So if you're like a trader in the audience, you know, I'll also invite some of my friends too for this.
But yeah, like where are we at on chain?
Because I think the most important graphic I've seen for everybody, ICM or not in the
last couple of weeks, is this on chain traders on Solana graph.
I think most of you guys have seen it.
It looks like, you know, it looks like the fucking GP chart.
It looks like straight up January, February peak, and then down only since then.
So the question to me is just, is this the bottom of on-chain?
Or is it going to get worse or just keep trending low or stay flat for a while?
I actually want to just talk to smart people about this.
And so I think that's what we're going to do for the next one.
But yeah, I honestly have a lot of free time now.
And this is fun. And so I think we're going
to do this more. Raz, any thoughts? Yeah. Uh, make sure to follow all the speakers, especially
me. But what I want to say is, uh, we're going to be doing banger ones in the future. I think
it's a network effect where, uh, you know, the best people will join every time more and more so.
And, uh, we're're gonna get a lawn on
that's that's what i'm saying i'm saying it now i'm putting my fucking feet in the sand
or whatever i don't know what the fuck i'm i'm staking my territory we're getting a lawn on
and then we're gonna get spec on that one and he's just gonna say the most unhinged shit
oh i think a lawn can handle it out of all fucking people right
let's uh let's shoot for a goal let's
raise you around yeah raz me and you okay actually peak content by the way if we do this me and you
i'm actually so when i'm saying this i'm being 100% serious okay me and you dedicate five days
we go to san francisco we vlog the whole thing and we go raise you around and we pitch dude it's i i
so it's hard.
There's a lot of, and I'm working on this now.
I'm working on filming with VCs and things and it's always like a bit of a challenge with stuff
and they just, they're very.
Well, no, Rats, we would wear the meta glasses
and we'd film it, like film it without.
Oh, that's crazy.
You should come to the Teal event.
Wait, what the fuck? I'll get you a ticket. What's that? I think I can get you a ticket. Wait, what the fuck?
I'll get you a ticket.
What's that?
I think I can get you a ticket.
Wait, what's that?
It's Peter Teal's, I'm going to wear some metaglasses in, but it's Peter Teal's, like,
antichrist sermon.
I think he's going to say he's antichrist.
Wait, actually?
Yeah, yeah.
Wait, I thought you were joking.
No, no, it's serious.
I looked up Peter Teal event, and it says, I looked up Peter Thiel, it's called the Antichrist.
It's literally called the Antichrist.
That's on fire.
What the fuck?
Wait, I'm assuming they don't want me throwing it.
Dude, you're Razzler, bro.
You got this.
All right, should we wrap it there?
Yeah, thank you guys for joining. Thanks a lot, man. Thanks a lot. Yeah, bro. You got this. All right. Should we wrap it there? Yeah.
Thank you guys for joining.
Thanks a lot, man.
We'll do it again.
Thanks a lot.
Yeah, yeah.
Have a good night.
Peace.
Have a good night.
Peace.
Peace.
Peace.
Peace. Peace.
Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.
Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.
