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Wallet security & radical transparency
Recorded: May 22, 2025 Duration: 1:29:12Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, key figures in the crypto community addressed pressing security trends, the importance of partnerships, and the launch of innovative projects like the carbon testnet and stackable NFTs, highlighting the ongoing evolution and resilience of the crypto ecosystem.
Full Transcription
Hey, Stephanie.
Hey, everyone. Let's give it a few more minutes for people to join you
hey matt so it seems like um x isn't bugging that much than anymore
matt if you can uh ask me a request to be a speaker as well would be great Right. How are you guys doing?
Hey, treading lightly here.
I'm so used to X being glitchy and was expecting a worse experience.
I'm glad we're here. I see nine of us. Is that right? Nine confirmed?
Yep. Now it looks like 10.
Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much for having us today. Hopefully we can get through this all right.
No, I got to say X is not technically we've had tons of problems
yeah we we came across some issues uh before as well but it seems to work
so like uh i'd like to thank everyone for joining us uh especially uh matt as well for example uh
really great to have you here um and like first like we want to acknowledge as well, for example, really great to have you here. And first, we want to acknowledge as well what's been a tough day
for the SUI ecosystem and its community.
No one ever wants to wake up to the news that user funds
have been drained or compromised, of course.
So our thoughts go out to the affected teams and their communities.
It's a very important thing, obviously.
And it's sad, you know, like some similar stuff has been happening in the past as well.
And that's what we're also going to be discussing today with Matt, for example.
And it's a painful reminder here as well that it's...
And it's on...
We've seen too often, as I mentioned mentioned like attackers are getting smarter from the by
bid 1.4 billion hack now to the sui defi hack and the systems that are supposed to protect users
are often overcomplicating things especially with smart contracts they often forget the basics
like how to keep how to keep people safe right um relying on complexity
and hope rather than provable security so that's something like i wanted to ask uh probably john
or matt uh whoever's first um what's your take on this for example matt why don't you go ahead
yeah thanks i was actually i see drew down in the audience hoping that he can get up here and
doesn't have uh too much uh difficulty um drew are you coming up great yeah as far as the hack i love
uh hearing you guys you know come out and offer uh support because i see you know i think we all see
too much uh infighting and tribalism in the space and we should be you know building bridges and
supporting each other uh we actually had an almost x split on multiverse x just a week ago but with
that ecosystem being smaller it didn't quite hit the uh mainstream news and over there we had uh
someone had uh figured out how to basically mint.
It was like, uh, they messed up the decimals ended up minting 150 quadrillion USDC.
Yeah. So take that Sui, you know? Um, but of course, you know, with that much, um,
I don't know, you know, full extent. So, you know, what happened behind the scenes,
but they were able to contain everything within 99.9%.
It was essentially a gray to white hat, you know, type of situation.
So that was our excitement.
And then to see what happened with Sweetie, shout out to Marcus down there in the audience,
because he plays around a lot in
that ecosystem and uh looks like there were even some uh dexes that uh you know dumped and they
weren't even ones that were affected and sui held strong so i like to see you know people supporting
each other not using it as an opportunity to you know say this is why our tech is better and
shout out to craigo down there.
That's my boy, my best friend.
Give him a follow, give Marcus a follow,
Fiora, Kalen, thanks guys for showing up.
And again, thanks so much for having me up here.
Looks like we're gonna be able to dive in.
Drew's here, I'm excited.
Great.
Stephanie said that you had some interesting stories that you might relate.
Stephanie said that you had some interesting stories
that you might relate.
Drew and I both have some very, I would say they're a little bit different than what, you know, everybody's got their story.
But we've got some unique ones from my family history to the way that Drew lives his life.
But I'd love to hear from him a little bit on that, if that's cool.
And then I'll chime in and talk about my dad's freedom fighting there with Communist Cuba a
little bit. Well, good for him. Yeah. Hey, guys. Thank you very much for
everything that you've been doing and the support from Stephanie and from what we call the Heist Army, hashtag Heist Army.
Shout out to everybody there.
Maybe start out, if you like, if you want to lead the questions
or lead the direction rather than just letting Matt and I ramble
because sometimes I can get spaces into trouble.
You'll pay for it, John.
Don't worry too much.
Yeah.
We're all brothers here.
Because what we don't know is, you know, this is a new community for us.
So perhaps if you want to guide us as to where you'd like to start,
we can get rolling.
But again, especially with Matt, man, once Matt gets rolling with his talking,
sometimes he just doesn't stop. Well, let me offer perhaps a frame. So,
you probably know a little bit about Geek talking to Stephanie. And
one of our fundamental ideas is that complexity is a trust layer.
If something is complex, it can't be understood, then you have to trust that it was done correctly or that somebody has vetted it correctly.
And a large enough community like Linux, it's probably OK.
But if you're looking at a smart contract or a DeFi, it's demonstrably not okay.
Too many failures in that regard.
And so what we've tried to do is to build something that shows everything on layer zero,
and it's basically data.
So we're not doing processing processing we're not doing smart contracts
the data's there it's signed it's verified and we have a sort of no consensus consensus
where if it's not true what's being offered it can be proven and so it doesn't really depend
upon a majority of of nodes it uh, nodes. It just depends
upon somebody being able to tell you the truth and then following that truth. So that's, uh,
that's our philosophy. Um, now with that frame, um, what, what is it that you guys are doing?
Okay. I can take that Matt if unless you want
to jump in frankly it's a very intriguing value proposition that that
I'm hearing and it's a little confusing because in my world truth truth is a it's an abstract truth is something that typically is pushed by
the mighty the stronger the more prevalent and we saw that with our chain
when there was some marketing going on trying to make the chain into what was
dubbed the truth machine and I pushed back on that one probably one of the few that stood up and said guys no I don't know
if we want to call us the truth machine because truth I mean look at the mainstream media I mean
classic examples of what is true just because it's written in stone doesn't make it true it
just means it's been written in stone and so I'm quite intrigued by what and admittedly
schedules have been pretty tight lately I didn't get as much time to research
the fundamentals of geek as I want it to and I raised my hand and take that
penalty on that one. No, no, no. John, I would love to say hello and welcome on my own behalf
to Matt and Drew. I think this is one of the reasons why we appear in each other's
DMs so much because Drew and Matt and I kind of agree on these difficulties in speaking to other people about what exactly we're trying to do.
So I love what you just said, Drew.
If I could rephrase, I think what John is saying about the idea that there are trust layers and if you are
dealing with smart contracts that are too complicated to understand then you
might as well be trusting if you don't you you shouldn't be doing things you
don't understand if you have things at stake and so my reading is that geek is so simple that it gets us back to being able who's accountable for moving an asset to you or receiving one from you.
So if you think about it from my history background, right, primary sources rather than truth, because, of course, primary source is biased.
Because, of course, primary source is biased.
But if we can't even find them, then we're just in a world where we're playing telephone all the time.
I think you make a very important distinction.
And we wouldn't claim that we are showing truth.
So if you want to think about it epistemologically, there are at least two different sorts of truth that we would traffic in.
So one of them would be mathematical truth.
And those are things which are internally provable.
So we know they're true because we can look at them and we can say, well, that adds up and that's the end of it.
The other is attested truth.
So the attested truth is that you have said something
and we can prove that mathematically
that you've said something,
but whether or not that thing has truth
outside the context of the chain,
you're absolutely right.
We have no real idea.
And that's why we put the processing off the chain,
because what you do with those mathematical facts can then be something that is deceitful
or incorrect or exploitive or something. But that's a layer that's different from us. And so
we give the possibility of using data that's provable to do
things that are correct, but of course we can't impose that on people. So that's our view of what
the truth might be. It's a very intriguing value proposition, like I said. And I'm more than intrigued and hopefully find more time to start letting my brain absorb it so that maybe some doors can be opened.
As Stephanie and I first discussed, oh, gosh, that's almost a year ago.
It's amazing how time. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's almost a year ago it's amazing oh wow yeah that's true we've been giving each other for a year yeah it's been
I'm most intrigued by the the concept the truth machine, though, ever since
our CEO, Benjamin, started to push it hard and watching the ecosystem. And I don't mean to make
this sound derogatory. It's not because it's just the way the social construct is eating it up because it's a really cool marketing soundbite, typebite.
Shout out, Matt, to that one.
But where some of our interests also collide, Stephanie, is the study of history.
And I've studied esoteric history for most of my life and i know the machinations of the oligarchs
and how history is hidden and contorted and i would love to see something in the concept of
a truth machine be it through geek be it through multiverse x but i through Multiverse X, but I value the, sorry, I'm aware of and wary of
the whole stability of energy required to set it into stone.
And, but, intriguing.
You know, that's interesting.
So I teach a course in ICT economics,
and I was given a lecture and it occurred to me that it was what I said was weird.
And that was that the students, you know, they're they're getting their their data from social media and that's coming through a filter and it,
AIs and so forth. They're so good nowadays. And, and, uh,
and bots that it's very hard to understand what might be true. And,
and they, you know, they're just getting a very,
a very particular biased view, uh, that appeals to them because that's what the, uh, the algorithm does to tell them that, yes, you're absolutely right.
You know, let's let us get confirmation bias because that causes engagement.
But I learned history. I'm a history buff, too.
I learned history from books and those those books can be biased.
You're right about that. But the thing about the book is that it doesn't change.
You're committed in that sense, it's an attestation
that somebody wrote down,
here's what happened in World War II
when they wrote it in 1950,
and they can't alter it for some other reason.
And I went to the book because I wanted the book.
And so it's not truth,
but it has a different flavor
than what the algorithms are feeding you
yeah it's a it's a deep deep deep I don't like the term rabbit hole I prefer the
the ideal of a ladder of truth but once you start walking up that ladder toward
the light of you know more awareness the some of the things that you can see as
you elevate up it's like, wow, seriously?
And that's guided most of my life.
So a small example of that with respect to what's written in books
being biased or with agenda from the historical perspective,
and this is a way off topic reference,
but the city of Pompeii being buried by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
I mean, you can go into Wikipedia or any textbook and you can see, you know,
the factual history of it.
And yet you can find maps dating from the late 1500s and the early 1600s that lists the city of Pompeii
and yet it was supposedly buried by Vesuvius and lost to time but yet it's on the map
so once you realize that the matrix of data that we use as the fabric of our social construct is perhaps not what we think it
is. Once your brain can accept that and truly accept it, then the world becomes a really
interesting research field. I'll tell you that right now. No, I believe you. That's very good insight.
Matt, you've had your hand up. Yeah, thanks, Stephanie. I was just going to chime in,
you know, with a little bit of framing around the conversation a bit. It's typically what I'll do is,
you know, digest the things that I can that are being talked about in the spaces and then try to, you know,
cover things so that everybody in the audience can, you know, take some pieces away from it
because our spaces, you know, have a tendency to get very tech heavy. And so as we push forward
in the conversation, I'm definitely interested, you know, to I'll be thinking, you know, to, I'll be thinking, you know, about what a possible, you know, dual layer security
stack might look like, you know, between the technology. So I'm curious to learn about what
custody looks like with Geek. That's something that I've been wondering, because I know the
stances on, you know, not needing a seed phrase, not needing 2FA, you know. And so it's really cool how we've
come together and be able to discuss and talk about the pros and cons of each as we continue
to explore and build in this space. So, you know, as far as, I guess, for a narrative for today,
I'm just kind of thinking to myself, you know, it's a grassroots altruistic energy, you know, meets a mathematically sovereign, you know, protocol with, you know, the same kind of destinations in mind.
Could you guys possibly fill me in a little bit on what the wallet situation looks like with Geek?
And I'm also curious, how does it separate itself from standard EVM?
Oh, I love that.
I love how you framed that, Matt.
I think that we have a lot to learn from you.
Actually, it's one of the reasons we wanted you on the space
to talk about wallets and what you're doing with
the Guardian. I would say that our wallet is really more of an issue of how do you manage
keys to, so we're a multi-chain also right multiverse x and geek are both multi-chain
um and the geek coin is trans uh transits between chains we we know how to keep track of that asset. That's fine.
Every other asset on Geek is, like John said, it's defined as data.
So an NFT is a deed plus a description.
And that's represented in your account, in your wallet, as what I said i said in the asset account there are deeds
and in the block explorer there are descriptions and they're all available and john's made sure
that everything can be proven at a transaction level so the question then becomes, if you're going across chains and our apps work across our
geek chains, because everybody can read data, then how do you display that?
How do you make that really user friendly to think about using apps across different
chains all with the same utility token.
Do you want to have,
yeah, basically it's a user-friendly issue plus a key management issue
in terms of trying to understand
where people's heads are.
Do they want a single account?
Do they want many accounts?
Do they want an account per app?
Do they want custodial accounts in their Web2 apps,
which would make it sort of Web2, Web 2.5?
So those are the kinds of questions that I think we need more clarity about because the thing that I worry about a lot in this space is this idea of account abstraction, say on the Ethereum ecosystem.
And, you know, those are not apples to apples.
And I think that taking away what people can understand is really dangerous.
So John, go ahead.
John W. Oh, well, no, that's a frightening security hole.
I can't even imagine what they have in mind there.
But yeah, so, you know, my focus is really much more on the chain, but we do have a wallet and Lund is working with Akil on that.
And as Stephanie says, to me, I think one of the biggest blocks in blockchain is the accessibility of a user.
I've got to, for example, periodically go and do things on Gnosis multi-sigs and I use Uniswap.
And Gnosis is difficult. Uniswap is a little bit better, at least by my lights.
But you really can't access those smart contracts without going to a website that gives you a UI UX that lets you interact with the smart contract.
You know, I wouldn't know how to compose a native transaction with the inputs for the
smart contract, nor would I know what they mean.
So I fill in the fields and that creates a transaction and off it goes to the chain and
that's that.
But that has to be done for every single smart contract.
Every smart contract is different and has different inputs
and different outputs.
And so it's always bespoke.
And what we're doing instead is we have
these set of fundamental data structures
that exist on the web, NFTs, stackables, counterparty
transactions, attestations, tokens, and a few other things.
And those exist as data within an account.
So unlike Ethereum accounts, where it's an address and a quantity of Ethereum,
and then through smart contracts is connected to other assets, our coin accounts actually
have a reference to the NFTs that are owned and has a list of the tokens that are owned.
So it's like a bank account that, you know, more than a bank account that just literally in the ledger lists your assets.
And so what our wallet does then is it's designed around letting people access those fundamental data structures.
And rather than trying to facilitate all of these smart contracts that are written ad hoc.
But no, I'm rambling.
So let me just say one thing.
I'm really intrigued by your idea of wallets without the words.
We use the dip standard like everybody else. I don't,
I don't see, I guess, uh, immediately how you would,
what the alternative is to generate, you know,
the seed for the, for the keys and how you would be able to,
how you manage to thread the needle of on the one hand, being able to recover it
with the seed phrase, on the other hand,
not opening a vulnerability.
That seems quite amazing to me.
But yeah, please let me know what you're doing.
Yeah, John, I'll probably hand that off to Drew.
And what we'll do is just cover the backstory a little bit.
Drew will probably have a couple of both disclaimers and maybe even reveals about our collective involvement with the story.
And then we'll meet back in the middle on, you know, the tech side of things and maybe come up with some cool ideas.
Drew?
Yeah, I just got a little confused there.
John, you were speaking, and forgive me.
One of the things that I didn't have time to do was to explore the individuals within Geek, the relationships and whatnot.
So my question was flowing into my head as you were asking Geek how they manage the wallets or if you were asking us, Matt and I and MultiverseX, how the wallets are managed.
So so I guess I'm asking how you do it. the more standard approach is that our wallet lets users access the other data structures that we have natively in addition to coin transactions,
which is, you know, what you would you would generally do out of out of an Ethereum wallet, for example.
But again, we're dependent upon this, this, these
deep races and recovery. And somehow if you've gotten away from that, that's really
intriguing.
Okay. Okay.
Yeah, let's hear, let's hear what you do. And then, and then I have some, I'm sure I
will have some stupid questions to help us refine down to, down to the basics.
We love stupid questions because there are no such thing as
stupid questions um so it's intriguing so just interrupt me if what i'm about to say is incorrect
but so currently the geek wallet itself is still seed phrase bound and that yes yes that there is
seed phrase management and so if a person loses track of uh so you know
your your laptop stolen your phone and stolen whatnot you can still get back on track because
you've got the seed phrase uh stored in a you know in a very safe environment so that you can go back
into one of your explorers and create a wallet into the seed phrase and you're back on track is
that essentially the that That's right.
That's correct, yeah.
Well, fundamentally, we aren't any different.
We have 24 words.
And we have ā I've got to admit, I've used a lot of wallets in my tenure here with crypto.
And I kind of shudder now, even when I hear the word MetaMask.
And forgive me, anybody here is a uniswap
fan and whatnot i'm with you i i just literally i because i used to run years ago i used to run the
i used to call it a dividend club for crypto dividend fund for people that uh wanted to make
a little bit of money in crypto but they didn't have a clue even how to spell cryptocurrency. And I did all right.
You know, I was pulling some nice APRs,
but I was doing it through non-MultiverseX wallets
because it was before the advent of Elrond going mainnet.
And when I, you know, when you're doing something,
you don't realize how much you dislike doing what you're doing
until you find a better way.
Yeah, that's exactly what it was like when Elrond started rolling and I got to use the Elrond world of cryptocurrency wallet management.
And I just I'm not I'm not making this up and I'm not exaggerating.
I'm not making this up and I'm not exaggerating.
I literally giggled like a little girl because I was doing 10 to 30 transactions in, for example, within about an hour, hour and a half to manage some things.
And then when I started going on and going, I flipped everything.
And I'll get back to this in just a second because there's a moment in my life where my life changed but I when I flipped over to using the multiverse X
systems it's just stunned what used to take me an hour and a half I was getting
done in about ten seven to ten minutes Wow it was just and it's only gotten
better over time.
And this is a story I don't think I've told Matt.
And I don't think it's not a big story, but for me, it was.
I was running this dividend club and with the permission of my,
there's like family and friends.
And with their permission, I was also doing a little bit more risky stuff.
Just a few trades, let it sit, you know, let it run. And I got into a situation with a general downturn where I was sitting with probably about 15 positions that were all in the negative. And so what do you do when that happens?
Like, you know, you got your stop losses or do you just say, I know better than the market. I'm
going to just, you know, let it ride a bit longer. Right.
And that's what I did.
I did that for a while.
And then the multiverse X.
So Elrond started to emerge and started to show a better way.
And I remember clear as clear as I'm sitting here right now in Mexico.
I said,
I should ask,
can we swear here in the geek world?
Oh, yeah.
I was sitting in my car because I wasn't allowed into a coffee shop
because I refused to wear a mask.
And I said,
fuck it.
Why am I waiting
for my positions to turn around when I know the world inside of
multiple L at the time, Elrond was doing better. So I sold everything at a loss,
made myself feel sick, flipped everything over, and I've never looked back it was and I had spent almost
a month watching these shitty positions and it just it it awakened a whole
neural pathway in my brain which is good let it's called loss of burden by the
way in behavioral economics absolutely but I had to learn it for myself, and I've never looked back.
Good for you.
But anyway, the way the wallet essentially functions, it's a really nice mix.
It's a rich, rich mix of awareness of UX, UI, user expectations,
of awareness of UX, UI, user expectations, reduction of roadblocks, getting on fast,
making things a little bit more clear. I mean, the general signature tagline is, you know,
we want to make it so that our grandmothers can use it. Not quite there yet, but with a bit of
hubris, you can say we are. But getting more to the brass tacks of the reason for the spaces with respects to what Egold Heist is all about is it doesn't matter.
Pre Guardian, we had a phrase and everybody knows the phrase if you've been in crypto for a while.
It's not your keys, not your crypto.
Yep.
When you deal with CEXs or you deal with giving a,
sending a digital copy of your seed phrase to your girlfriend,
you know, for safekeeping, like, you know,
it's just not right.
Well,
I'm gonna have to go into a little bit of a backstory here
and Matt's got his hand up. So why don't we just see if Matt wants to say something. I'm going to have to go into a little bit of a backstory here.
And Matt's got his hand up. So why don't we just see if Matt wants to say something before I continue?
Oh, if I did, Drew, it's a glitch.
You're good.
Thank you, though.
Okay, brother.
So, okay, I'm going to have to give some backstory.
I apologize if it's a little bit boring and maybe a little bit off topic,
but not really.
You're not boring.
I appreciate that, Stephanie.
A little back, nobody other than a few people who are from MultiverseX
really know much about me here.
So just a little bit of backstory.
I've been in software developing for years, mostly for myself,
contractual arrangements with
governments. And I had my own startup for a couple of years, thought we were going to change the
world. But, you know, expectations sometimes, they're unmaterialized disappointments. And
I had the world's worst partner at the time. And he won't ever hear me say that because we are so disconnected now.
But just life changed a little bit after that.
And I took a little hiatus around the world.
And I was sitting in Bali and my dad took really, really ill.
took really really ill so I returned home to their home and just decided to
take a bit of a break from life and just give my mom and dad the remaining years
together and so I was kind of living 24-7 and taking care of my dying father
and I had a lot of time to research and I read the white paper from elrond and as soon as i read it i said wow
these guys can do what they say they're going to do it and at the time you want to boil everything
down from the white paper to one sentence it was that they were going to achieve like 256 000
transactions a second and i said jesus christ if these boys can do what they're saying
in a sharded environment, like they're describing, I said, I'm in. So I dropped a
moderate investment into through Binance because they were on a Binance launchpad.
And I forgot about it because I've done that before. I've done little investments here and there. And God, I don't remember how long it was, but it was long enough that I forgot that I did
it. And I fired up my Binance wallet one day and I just go shit myself. And I thought I had logged
into somebody else's account because there was quite a bit of asset value in there.
And so I logged out and I logged back in.
There it was.
And I started looking for the reasons why.
And then I saw that the Elrond boys managed to achieve what they said they were going to achieve.
Oh, well done.
So I bought a lot more.
And that makes me one of the OGs.
My wallet is one of the oldest in the ecosystem, apart from the team, of course.
And so one day I was doing the research, reading around, and I saw this really intriguing message in one of the Telegram groups.
I didn't even realize what it was. i was just reading this group of technical guys and one of them said do you guys realize that one
day in the future all of us here are going to be millionaires and i thought that was kind of
interesting because this wasn't a public this wasn't a group that was out there advertising and
shilling and so i did the
research and what these guys were were the validators on the multiverse x the early days of
elrond and so i did the research as to what do you need to do to be a validator i wanted to be
a millionaire why not right and uh so it's just like i had enough. I had the assets to do it.
And I didn't have the full technical skills to run the servers.
But at the time, one of my partners did.
So I reached out and I said, dude, can you teach me everything I need to know?
He goes, no, no.
He just let me do it for you.
And so that's what I did. I fired up my agency. At the time, it wasn't called Ape Staking. It was just a node validator running on the Elrond network. But I've been a validator there for, I wasn't one of the originals, but definitely early on.
early on. So as life rolls forward and my father, I, I, through the, my work in health and wellness,
um, dad actually lived for three and a half years. We thought he had about a month left when I,
when I went back home. And, uh, so I had a lot of time to research, a lot of time to do some
investments, had some, had some really interesting stories, but they're not on topic, so I'll let that go.
We'll have to have you back.
What I did was I got the validator running smoothly.
And as on my birthday, I think it was, forgive me if I'm one year out but on my birthday my dad's birthday was
the next day so on my birthday elrond shot elgd shot from about a i think it was a hundred to
two hundred dollars in one day and it it just blew me away like I was seeing basically generational wealth appearing, and I was like, holy Christ.
So moving the story forward a little bit, my father finally passed, and it was his time, and it was a good thing for him.
And I returned to my home on the west coast of Canada.
And the world kind of fell apart in Canada because of all the medical nonsense of the day back in 2021.
And I decided I had to get out of the country.
And had to do it really fast. My partner and I left. He went to the Yucatan,
I went to Costa Rica. So there I am in a brand new world with no way to go home at the time.
And this is where the story gets interesting. And it's not a story that I think I've shared
publicly. Some people know it, Matt knows it. And I think at
first I kept it quiet, basically out of, I don't think vanity is the correct word or ego is the
correct word, but maybe embarrassment. But in the early days of our wallet, our portable wallet, the MyR wallet, we called it at the time.
My wallets were all the base wallet.
Like I always used the web wallet because it just seemed the easiest to,
I didn't like using ledgers.
So I'm in Costa Rica.
I'm on my own.
I have nobody to protect me.
And I've got my phone.
I've got MyR. And I've got my phone, I got my R, and I've got my validating node. And some of, most of you here in this community won't know this name, I believe,
but the folks listening in from MultiverseX most assuredly will. We had a launch on our own launchpad called Ride, which turned out to be a
debacle. And what had happened was one of the very technically vested people who has a lot of
skills created a situation for himself where he could front run people and, uh,
helped a few of his friends and family. Um,
they didn't do the, the, the community proud.
They made some money, but they really, I mean, bluntly speaking,
they boned a lot of people up the ass and I got pissed off and the validators
weren't talking about it and I was like well guys
you know like I think the term I used at the time was like are we not going to talk about
the elephant in the room that somebody involved in our group use their technical skills to front run.
And everybody's like, oh, no, Drew,
we talked about it in the discussions online, the town halls.
We talked about the town halls.
Just stop talking.
And I was like, well, no, guys, we're the validators.
We are the front line.
We're the people that need to stand up.
And I got poo-pooed and just drew, go away. And so does anybody need a break to get a drink of water because I've been talking too long? Costa Rica sounded good, but no, keep going.
going. Okay. So I'm sitting, I'm sitting, go ahead. Sorry. I'm just laughing. Go ahead. Go ahead,
Okay. So I'm sitting, I'm sitting, go ahead. Sorry.
please. So I'm, I'm in Costa Rica. I'm enjoying my new life, trying to figure out what the hell,
you know, I've never been outside of my home country in a non-vacational kind of arrangement
before. So everything was new. And there's a little bit, you know, to be fair,
a little bit of paranoia, looking, you know, making sure that, you know, somebody is not
sizing you up or, you know, the ladies that are smiling at you aren't thinking like, you know,
oh, geez, you know, there's a new guy, you know, checking for money. So I'm just trying to keep a
low profile. And this ride launch happens and people lose a fair amount of money and i because of my voting
power with my uh stake i was able to get a lot of ride through the launch pad and it's a it's a
ticket it's a an auction if you will and uh so i was like looking at i was pissed off at the whole
ride thing but i was happy that i got a lot of ride and my you know i was like looking at i was pissed off at the whole ride thing but i was happy that i
got a lot of ride and my you know i was making a little bit of money and
and i checked out my myer wallet and uh my ride was gone
and i was like oh wait a minute did i transfer it to one of my back wallets
and i went to check my other wallets and it wasn't
there I went to check to see my transactions there was no transactions
and I was really really confused because how would an asset disappear from a
wallet and anyway my hour was relatively new at the time and there were some
growing pains and the transactions were there. They just weren't being reflected into the mobile app at the time. my seed phrase somehow had been hacked. And I'll tell you one thing, I got layers and layers of protection
and there's no social engineering me.
I don't click any links from anybody.
I don't surf porn.
I don't have any predilections
and I don't get distracted
by the beautiful women in Costa Rica.
Matt, don't say a word on that one when it comes to
me working my wallets and my crypto i am laser focused so i reached out to some of the deep
tech heads within uh elrond and i'm using elrond because at the time that's what it was called
and everybody basically said it just can't happen the way you describe it can happen i said
well it happened nobody's got my phone my my seed phrase is stored under about four layers
of encryption and passwords no nobody getting near it.
And basically,
one of the smartest guys in the blockchain just said,
Drew, I don't believe you.
And I said, well, dude,
why the fuck would I lie about it?
So I was really pissed off.
And I sat
in my favorite coffee shop
in the southwest coast of costa rica and i stared into nothing for hours
and then i realized that two things is i don't think that they were disconnected but i have no
proof but i went back to the validator group and I said, guys, firstly, we need to find a better way to allow API access to events like the launches.
out of the room and I said well a anybody any human can go and use the manual user interface
and create the transactions absolutely yes but if you want to come in API level and for example try
front-running I said why don't we control it throw it a kyc something. If you're going to access the machine from the back door,
you're going to need a key.
And that got left out of the room.
It still hasn't been implemented.
I still think it's a good idea.
But then I started thinking, I said, well, okay.
I didn't want to talk about the fact that I was just in the middle of trying
to figure out this theft.
And I said, well, what about 2FA?
Why don't we have the wallets controlled by 2FA?
And then the shit started.
And by shit, I mean essentially just mocking my level of understanding.
Basically, Drew, just go away.
Why don't you go read some books on blockchain?
2FA can't be used on DEXs.
You can't do anything like that because it's permissionless.
I said, no.
Like, I've done a lot of software.
I've done a lot of business.
And I said, boys, dudes, seriously.
2FA could be the answer.
And the mocking that I got, there has been deleted messages.
There has been no capability from that period of time.
No capability from that period of time.
But there are screenshots.
But there are screenshots.
And so what happened was this was in November, I believe, of 21.
And I pushed it and I pushed it.
And anybody here looking down this list, I don't know who all is here.
Looking down this list, I don't know who all's here, but there are those who know that I'm considered to be like the black sheep of the validated group.
And I had many, many people reaching out to me privately in Telegram saying, Drew, thank you for doing what you're doing.
Please keep up the good work.
And I'd come back and say,
thanks, man. I said some public support would be awesome. And no, no, not speaking out publicly.
Nope. Nobody wants to. Okay. I'll say this politely. I'll say this very, very carefully.
I'll say this very, very carefully, but there is a strong technical click within probably all blockchains.
And Elrond is no different.
Very, very good people, but you become comfortable with those with whom you resonate with.
And when outside energy approaches, typically defensive walls come up.
And I was a way outside of the box thinker.
So I'm used to it. Very used to it. And this was in November and I pushed and I pushed and I got
pushed back. And these people were saying, Drew, keep talking, keep talking, keep talking. And I,
it was weird. I was in the middle
of, I mean, I was making nice money as a validator at the time and loving everything about the
blockchain. There were some significant challenges, but as Matt and I have formalized,
I've always considered myself to be basically unfuckwithable.
I say what I say.
I say what I feel.
I don't back down if I feel I'm right.
And as some have advised me, a very wise individual has said to me fairly recently, he said, Drew, nobody likes to be told that they're wrong.
This is true.
This is true.
But you are among friends here. We might adopt that hashtag're wrong. And I don't know. This is true. This is true. But you are among friends here.
We might adopt that hashtag, Drew. I appreciate that. But, and I said to the very, very wise person who said that to me, I said, you know, you're right. You're absolutely right. I said,
but I don't have time to coddle people. I've never been the coddler.
And so to bring the story into a bit more of a tighter nutshell,
near the end of November and early December in 21,
I was pushing this 2FA thing.
Told to go away and living life in Costa Rica. So get distracted.
January hits and there was a post from Microsoft, from Elrond that I didn't see.
Because if anybody is familiar with Elrond and Multiverse X, they know that we have the most amazing weekly technical updates you've
ever seen. I get tired just reading. They're just so full of stuff that'll boggle your mind.
And just like the team, the team has done this much in a week. Anyway, and most people can't
understand it. And I think that speaks to some of the basis for geek,
with the complexity and with people doing things
they don't understand, accepting it as a status quo,
which is an interesting, again, value proposition.
But a week after this technical update,
and again, screenshot receipts are available, but not to be made public for now.
Somebody said, hey, Drew, and one other person who was supporting me, did you guys see this?
And one mention way down the list of the technical updates was started working on the
guardian about a month and a half or so after i was doing all of that uh pushing and getting shit on
so so uh i uh if i can take you back just a bit, I'm still curious, how was your stuff stolen?
Well, that has never been solved.
So what I did was I looked at all my levels of security and I effectively doubled them. rid of the the the wallet installed a new um a new wallet into my my r at m a i a r was spelled
my rf and i never touched the other wallet since and uh and sadly the the part that i didn't
mention was after the ride was stolen i had a little bit of staked e-gold and at
the time e-gold was certainly a lot more valuable than it is today and i wanted to get it out of
there so like a fucking idiot i unstaked it 10 days later i was ready at the moment that it was
unstaked to take it out.
I had everything ready.
I had screens all set up, just a click, click, click.
Front of my eyes, my eagle was stolen from me.
Oh, no.
It was a sickening feeling.
It was a fair amount of money.
And it was sickening and that that moment changed my life
and that was that was the fuel i mean the other the rye token wasn't that valuable the eagle at
the time was very valuable it was a fair amount of money and that moment solidified why i was so
strongly pushing for a better more secure environment because nobody could explain
how my shit was stolen. Well, that has to have been a smart contract issue. It was unstaked and
somehow. No, no, it was at the Meyer. It was at my wallet level. And the reason for that is it was very these cases are very very isolated and
if it was a problem with the smart contract then you'd be seeing that more um you know more
abundantly so no so a flawed day hey hey drew yeah i'm sorry to barge in but i wanted to put
a speculative uh answer out for john um based on some other
people that i spoke to around the time we think that there might have been an apple backdoor
possibly um that that led to that it's not a uh an existing protocol issue and there hasn't been any
uh any issues you know like that since and especially especially with the Guardian and Uber Guardian
that we'll be getting into soon here with Drew's story.
That's all I wanted to add, thanks.
Thanks, Matt.
And that's effectively what I boiled it down to as well.
One of the things that I do religiously is VPN.
So I didn't think it'd be as simple as
an open air kind of sniffing thing.
But the one thing that we were doing, we're still doing,
we store in an encrypted format, if you choose to,
the seed phrase into iCloud and or I think Google Cloud.
In and of itself, that's a safe medium.
But if there are any technical issues at their end then there can be
problems but as far as i can tell it hasn't manifested itself moving forward and perhaps
anybody else that's encountered these issues have been like me at the time I didn't want to raise my hand and say, yeah, I got hacked because I'm a validator.
Anyway, what it fueled was a fire for me to implement change.
And that's my pushing inside the validator group.
And frankly, in my life, the number of battles I fought, I don't give a shit if somebody doesn't like me or they want to stand up and say, Drew, you're wrong. And here's why I'll always listen. I don't mind being wrong. That just means I've
gotten a little bit smarter. So anyway, the point of the matter here is that sometime within a month,
month and a half, there was that very quiet little mention, started working on the guardian.
very quiet little mention started working on the guardian
and uh we're like huh we didn't know what the guardian was
i i hate to rush you we're almost out of time but
talk tell me what what is the guardian sell me on the guardian tell me tell me
what it does in a couple of minutes um sorry just to be clear
when you say we're just about out of time does that mean you have to go or uh well allegedly
this ends at four oh what time allegedly what time is it now allegedly yeah we can just a couple
minutes oh i think didn't stephanie didn't you make a joke that we're going to be gone for three
hours?
Well, we can expand.
That's my typical joke when I make a presentation.
Yeah.
Go ahead, please.
Stephanie, your
voice is breaking up.
Why don't you go ahead
and finish your, or tell
us about the game.
So, after a couple of months, Why don't you go ahead and finish your, or tell us about the Guardian. Okay.
So after a couple of months, what happened was they revealed this Guardian.
And what it was, was they integrated at protocol level, a gatekeeper, which is functional 2FA, that is, again, at protocol level.
So there's no enhancements.
There's no extra new wallets.
Every single wallet inside of the MultiverseX ecosystem, the L at the time, L Ronda and MultiverseX.
Now we're moving forward.
I'll just start using MultiverseX.
Is not by default turned on the guardian feature,
but when the guardian feature is turned on,
every single asset movement out of a wallet has to be okayed by your chosen guardian methodology.
And inside of the mobile app,
we have what is called an invisible guardian.
And so what that is, it's a trusted cosigner.
And it's based on the phone itself.
And what it does is it invisibly creates the authentication in 2FA.
Now, I'm old school.
And based on my experiences, I don't want to rely on
something that's invisible. I already had my own, because of these hacks, I had all my 2FA
methodologies in place. And so when I create, when I activate my Guardian, I use my own 2FA sources.
So every single time I have to move money,
my wallet either on the web browsers or in my phone says,
okay, sure, we'll ship out 200 Eagle for you,
but you're going to have to give us your current and valid 2FA code.
And I'm the only one in the world that has it.
So this is why the Guardian is so powerful,
is because, and I see Matt's hands up,
I'll just finish this thought, Matt,
is that the seed phrase that creates the wallet allows
you to go for example with the e-gold heist Matt and I published the seed phrase you can create the
wallet fully functional you can log in and you can look around you can do what you need to do
but the moment you decide to send any of the assets from the wallet out what does it do it stands
up and says just a moment give us your 2fa code so if you're doing this at the
protocol level that must mean that that second signature is somehow recorded in the transaction data? Yeah, in an encrypted format.
Okay, so, but presumably it can,
well, how do we verify it then?
It verifies because it works.
It's the same as all the other authenticator apps.
It's not, it's industry standard authenticator code and
it's tied to any of the authenticators like if you were to fire up X portal
right now which is the current name for our mobile app and you're going to see
some references to get us your Google authenticator code now that's just carry over from the guys that just didn't fill
the text in properly it's any authenticator so so you know if you're using the final standard you I
guess as an example you have you the the device is trusted because there's some sort of signature of the phytogroup
that attests that it's in some sort of protected computing environment, what's happening.
So you believe the authentication because of that.
of because of that and here it sounds like you have an ad hoc uh generation of a of a uh of this
hidden key or is it is it somehow uh generated by by the authenticator itself i don't think
that ad hoc is probably the best word to use because it makes it sound makeshift. It's industry.
But maybe bespoke is better.
I mean, it's unique to you.
Yeah, it's the same.
Like, for example, when you activate a 2FA code,
like with the bank or with any site for your account,
you have to scan the QR code that creates on the server side,
the functionality that's going to create the currently acceptable number,
industry standard code.
And then your app does the same thing,
and it gives you the current matching code.
It's really no different.
That's how it functions.
So built into the protocol level is effectively like
how your bank says okay you know we're going to set up 2fa for your bank account or even buy like
finance has the the two a lot of them have 2fa but it's it's at a level above protocol where here
it's so this is is gonna- Go ahead.
Let's get into the weeds, but are you doing this
with hash based or time based?
Wondering because if it's hash based, go ahead, I'm sorry.
It's not hash based, it's time based.
It's industry standard 30 second intervals.
And with a little bit of, there's a little bit of a fluff between the
exact 30 seconds as most of you may know if you use 2FA a lot you can always float over
five six seven seconds and have it still work. And I think that's just a human a human usability
factor that's been built into the industry standard methodologies yeah but
effectively what it means is nobody in the world is going to be able to pull that out unless they
have a one in a million chance where they've chosen the six digit code in that 30 second window. I'll have to think about it.
How to implement that is not an idiot to me.
Matt, do you want to say something?
Yeah, I just wanted to add in there
just in case it wasn't clear
that the native asset ownership of MultiverseX,
that architecture is what allows this to be possible.
My understanding is that to add this in
with a smart contract based tokens,
there's going to be those extra elements of risk,
which is probably what you're kicking around
in your head right now.
But with the way that Elrond was built from the ground up
enables us to make these protocol enhancements at scale.
Thanks, man.
I'm sort of thinking about how I would have enough.
It's not obviously why you wanna have the 2FA data encrypted
because once it's been used,
you may as well let it be verifiable.
I don't, I'm not, it's not clear to me why that,
the advantage of having an expired
2FA code.
Yeah, that, and when I, when I answered that question, I was recognized and it was probably
not the best way to describe it.
It's not the actual 2FA code is the, what's, what's encrypted and it's part of the transaction
is the effective end address to the trusted cosigner.
I see, I see.
So you're not going to be able to take a look at that and ever backtrace it,
but it has to be able to put into the permanent record the computed address.
So that's effectively what effectively it ends up doing for you,
if you want to think of it from a higher level is you effectively have like two two seed phrases.
I see. I was wondering how it was that I mean, if I were to lose my phone, I suppose I would somehow have to recover the to a facility.
And well, my thing that I advise every single person especially as matt
and i've been doing the e-gold heist is is if you're going to do in this is my my opinion this
is not the team's opinion this is not standard opinion because this the standard opinion here is
to use the mobile app and use the invisible guardian because it's easier. I don't like that. I want to be able to control it.
So what I do, what I advise is figure out how to use Authy or Google,
Google, uh, 2FA, whatever the hell it's called.
God don't even use anything from Google, but use it,
learn how to use it and learn how to react in emergencies.
Take a day and figure it out.
Practice.
Lose.
Before you put any value behind your 2FA accounts, figure out how to lose it and get it back from the emergency processes and record what you're doing.
I do that, but I'm a lunatic.
Nobody does that. I do. So you and I do do that but i'm a lunatic nobody does that i do so you
there's a i do it but we're lunatics there's a 20-day cool down if it's completely lost
so as long as you have those keys you can go in there and reset one of them and recover under
that instance in case you're considering that john yeah i there's i going to obviously have to read your material because it sounds very interesting.
It sounds very like to figure out how you make this completely tight, which I'm sure you have.
I mean, it would be surprising if I could reproduce it in five minutes of thinking well um sorry i was just saying if the seed words to the
wallet are up top and we just had our one year anniversary since the final word was uh released
if you want to you know go in there uh but now it how many months drew did we go with the one
single 2fa with a one in a million and we even withstood some brute force attacks but now it's dual guarded
we're effectively you know one in a trillion um so we're even a coordinated uh attack across
hundreds of hackers would uh you know the the math would not be in their favor okay it was about a
month and a half i think matt no i think No, I think it was in the first month.
Not 100% sure, to be frank.
There's been so much going on.
Oh, no.
You're thinking of the brute force.
So that was the first.
The team was great.
Within about 36 hours, they got the protocol to respond to brute force attacks and require ā
oh, I forget.
What was the mechanic exactly with that, Drew?
But then further down the road,
we got the Uber Guardian, the second 2FA.
So what it was, stepping back a little bit,
is we've got a white hat hacker friend
who created a DAP, and what the DAP allowed people to do,
anywhere in the world, was start firing the 2FA codes at
the wallet. And he was going to expand upon it. And he let us know what he was doing. And it was
like, wow, wow, wow, this is a one in a million chance. But still, you get enough people firing shots at the wall the wall may come down and so
we matt and i had a private uh well we have a private telegram group with the team that's
responsible for that coding and we reached out to say guys you you got it you got it and i gave them
my solution and they implemented a version of it.
So what it means is as soon as the wallet and the chain recognizes a brute force attack on a wallet that is guarded,
it will enforce two consecutive 2FA codes to be entered one after the other so that takes a one in a million
chance and it multiplies it by itself so it's a one in a trillion chance in order to steal and
once that was activated like matt said like 36 hours matt's better in that kind of stuff remembering
stuff than i am but But what the white hat
hacker just kind of raised
the white flag and he told his
crew, you know,
might as well just go home because we're not
going to break through that.
And there's still a one in a
trillion chance. I mean, if you're bored,
have at it.
How does the chain
know that it's gotten the right code back
unless it has the seed phrase that's used for the one-time password?
The seed phrase isn't connected to it.
This is isolated 2FA.
It's the same way when you activate 2FA on any account,
and you scan the QR code,
it's the same starting process.
As soon as you go to link your 2FA app,
it instantly knows that if you don't throw out that six-digit code, you're not getting through
the door. And that's why you have to do it the first time to essentially convince the protecting 2FA mechanism on the other side of the screen that you are
legitimately running this properly. Hey, Drew, I think there are probably, I'm thinking that
question came from a conflation with the invisible guardian. If you want to maybe draw lines on the
two different versions there
because I you know how we hit that confusion from time to time.
I tell you what actually we're I'll let Stephanie make the management call here but a little
over time this sounds like it's going to go pretty deep so maybe we should maybe we should
cap it off today and and pick this up another time. Honey, what do you think?
I think I have to ask for another time.
I think that would be really interesting because there is so much depth of commitment here
to keep people safe.
And I did not know that this is what you were all doing. So
I feel really educated about that. And I also haven't put together how we could
join forces in some sense, because you are thinking about 2FA on a decentralized level.
about 2FA on a decentralized level.
And John is thinking about local public key infrastructure.
And there has to be a lot that we could learn
from each other, I think.
For the record, I don't feel like I've learned anything.
I feel like I've figured out how ignorant I am.
You have to track my knowledge.
Welcome to my world.
I feel like that every day.
Well, that's a good feeling.
I think pushes this off.
I like that.
If you don't, we would love to come back.
Sure.
But Stephanie, if you don't mind, I'll just do a quick wrap up so that the community,
your community can have a better sense for what Matt and I are bringing to the
table is that, uh, this was Matt and I were working on something else.
That was really, really interesting and still is interesting,
but we've just been so distracted by lots of other things that we will get
back to that. But as we were starting to talk about that,
I had been telling people for a year and a half or
more talking about the Guardian I said guys anybody can just put some money in a wallet and release
your seed after it's guarded anybody can do it and then we had this amazing conversation with uh madeline remembers name shields i think it was um some one one guy
crypto shields crypto shields and it was stephanie it was i think i may have linked you in that
conversation because it was so respectful and it was so engrossing that we were talking about this
and i think i may have repeated that phrase and And then I just, it just, something went off in my head. And I said, I am they. Why do I keep saying they, anybody could
do it? I'm anybody. And I just said, fuck it. And so I went off that next day, first got up
early in the morning and went down. I started thinking about a name and I grabbed a couple
of domains and I started thinking about how to do it and remember I'm the black sheep of the validator group and caught so much shit for this
and blah blah blah I just said okay well this is what I'm gonna do I'm gonna fire
it up I'm gonna throw it out there I'm gonna stick in 10 e-gold at the time
ego was more valuable and I'm just gonna just do it do it. And then Matt is such an amazing person.
It's almost unfair to meet a person like Matt,
because then you may look around you at other friendships and just go like,
wow, dude, you know, he's that good.
And I just reached out and said, man, I said, you know,
you're really excited about my great game idea, but would you consider helping me with this?
And Matt just immediately jumped on board and the two of us started working like the officially crazy professionals that we are, you know, 10 hours a day working for free just to help the world get better.
But what we did was through Matt's skill in networking and socially connecting with people
and being the listener that he is, without him, Eagle Heist would never have been what it was
because I just don't have the same level of,
I don't know how to call it people skills or patience.
I don't know what it is, but Matt just really leveled it up.
And so we did, we just reached out to the world to say, Hey, everybody,
throw us some money, trust us.
And we're going to give away our seed phrase, and we're going to tell all the
hackers in the world to come steal our fucking money because we are unfuckwithable, and you're
not going to be able to steal it. That's what we did. And Matt had the great idea of reaching out
to his network, including you, Stephanie, after you met through me. If you want to tell that story later, feel free at another space. But we had people reveal one seed word at a time just to spread it out. And for everybody else here who's not that familiar with what we did is we released the seed phrase. I think the highest value, I think Matt and I kind of fight back and forth as to what the highest value was. I think it was just over $36,000 US.
And not a goddamn cent has been stolen.
Not in that first month of season one.
And the wallet sits there to this day.
And it's, I think it's lowest value based on how the markets have gone down was I think five six thousand
dollars currently sits at over thirteen thousand and for season two I made a substantial
personal risk factor I dropped in a chunk of e-gold and I challenged the ecosystem to match
me I threw 200 e-gold which is
back in time at the all-time high would be a lot of money
but i challenged the ogs in our ecosystem to to match me and uh
well you know it is what it is you know nobody well there's been a couple of people standing up.
Vinny, Vinny from Brazil stepped up and one anonymous, just like no hero tag, no, like every goddamn day over and over and over as frames of reference for real security.
We're still waiting for that call from, you know, major levels of support.
And basically, we just said, fuck it.
We're not waiting any longer.
We started season two.
I dropped in 200 eagles.
And I just said, match us OGs or shut the fuck up.
It's amazing.
You know, you have to have confidence in your own project.
I have to applaud you.
You did it.
You too have done it.
John, you wanted to say something and maybe set the stage for the next time we all get together and
talk? I don't know. Let me, I'm gonna have a look at your stuff and I'm sure
Stephanie can point me in the right direction, but it sounds very interesting.
I don't, I hope we can make it, hope we can interest other people in it.
I'm sure it's very technical.
Matt, any last, any comments?
No, other than I would love to come back.
If you guys want to, you know, hear us talk longer, we can, you know, share more of the backstory and insights and updates.
We're running a little mint right now
off of Rare Art Protocol
where we got some nice visuals
from two artists from the community
came together to do it for us.
Those funds are going to the wallet
and there's gonna be a lot more stuff coming down
because, you know, we made a bit of history
and we're proud of it um not everybody you know loves and agrees with everything all the time like for instance
leaking a seed phrase is you know not proper practice in here so we you know try to use that
attention to educate as much as possible as we can to get the word out we're going to keep doing
just that because you, we're a small
ecosystem, but we sleep well at night and we're damn proud of it. And I would love to continue to
put our heads together to, you know, figure out if there is a way forward, you know, of,
of utilizing both, you know, the, the identity and security, you know, to just continue to protect people and community.
That's what I'm here for. I know that's what Drew's here for. Thank you.
Yeah, no, I have to say that, I mean, the two things, I said one thing, one is usability.
If you can't use it, then blockchain and crypto are not useful. And that's one of, I think, the big, big problems.
The other, though, is security. If you can't trust it, if you think you're going to get robbed, then you don't want
to have any part of it. And we've got a terrible reputation. So absolutely, you guys are working
on the right thing. And that's the second leg of the stool. There must be a third.
The third, John, according to, well, it's actually a actually fourth from me is we've got the crypto crypto
trilemma but I've been working on a bit of a thesis with the idea that I believe community
debt is part of the answer which is you need to involve the grassroots the people who are vested rather than simply just
the team you think it needs to be matt's a wonderful champion for this of uh recognition
around the entire ecosystem regardless of a value of the person you're recognizing like you know it's
not just about talking about the big wigs or the, you know, the stars.
It's looking at the people who are really, you know, the grassroots.
And just before I forget, because that happens with me often,
but one of the things that has emerged from the e-gold heist
is an entirely new slogan, which you don't see almost anywhere else because it
reveals weakness but our slogan that we used to back the season one was there's a play on
the not your keys not your crypto we evolved that to be steal my keys still steal my crypto, because that's effectively what The Guardian does.
Very nice.
Yeah.
Well, on that high note, let's end for today.
Robbie, you want to bow us out here?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'd like to thank Drew as well for this sad,
but also an amazing story, actually.
It was really interesting to hear that story.
And I think Stephanie would like to say something as well,
though, would you like to add something, Stephanie,
for the community as well?
Yes, I think in a little bit of a switch,
we have an announcement for the geek community
and the multiverse community that's tuning in.
I hope there's more back and forth because we're all interested in the same thing.
And that is that Geek is releasing the carbon testnet.
We are going to have our announcement out shortly right after this space.
going to have our announcement out shortly right after this space.
And it's not just a testnet the way we have been showing off that you can mint your own
story, our stackable NFTs and Drew and Matt.
Stackable NFTs are when you start an NFT and then you want it to grow over time and trade as a single unit
still. So it's a way to curate, it's a way to improve your assets, or it's a way just to
organize your assets. Like if you have a record and you've tokenized it and it's what I get all the time is that you car
maintenance record and then you add and you add and you add and then you sell a
car you want to also transfer the record at the same time that's one of the
things that he is capable of doing and you never go backwards it's always a
pen only so we've had lots of you take use cases and i see our community ambassadors
who have discovered a lot over the last few test nets this test that is different this test that
begins with how you start establishing your own identity and it will begin with the base layer of a stack you're not going
to create it yourself you're going to claim it and then from there you can start building and
so we would love for people to start understanding the kinds of assets that we have at gate they are no smart
contracts so they can't uh i can't hurt you in any way right so no smart contract means no wallet
drains no smart contract means you're in charge um and please tune back in to our twitter feed in a few minutes and we'll put that announcement out soon
hope people will participate we would love to have love to have you think about your identity
as something that you can curate and eventually have different identities over the net that you keep private.
And that's it, Robbie.
Awesome. Awesome. Thanks, Stephanie, for sharing.
And, like, I mean, again, I want to thank Matt, Drew, John, Stephanie,
everyone that's been joining as well, listening in.
And I'm actually looking forward for a next talk as well,
to hear some more stories from Madden also, for example,
and to hear some more about what you guys are up to and maybe
see where we can sink
in together with Geek.
That sounds great. Thank you very much, you guys.
This was truly appreciated.
Stephanie's
personality
and her ability
to be present have been valued from the first moments that we started connecting.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you, guys.
Appreciate your sharing with those.
Really appreciate it.
All right, everybody.
Be safe out there.
All right.
Come.
All right.
Have a great day, everyone.
Bye-bye.
Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much. Bye.
