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🎙️WEB3 | +C.O.C ft 🌱Gene Hoffman CEO of 🌱Chia Network
Recorded: Jan. 16, 2026 Duration: 1:51:40Space Recording
Short Summary
Chia Network is making significant strides with the anticipated launch of proof of space 2.0 and the introduction of CircuitDAO, a new stablecoin. CEO Gene Hoffman emphasizes the importance of community engagement and sustainable work practices, while discussions around regulatory clarity and fundraising opportunities signal a promising future for the platform.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon, happy Friday. good afternoon happy friday welcome to the community communities web3 space hope everybody
is good thank you to everyone who is already here and in the building you guys are absolute legends
we will be starting the space very shortly we're just going to get the team on the stage the guests
on the stage we're super excited about tonight as always we are featuring the amazing gene hoffman the ceo of the chia network i appreciate the community
that are already here that are already showing support checking the space sharing it out tagging
some friends dropping some comments we appreciate that as well if anyone does have any questions
feel free to drop it in the comment section of the space we'll be reading that throughout the
night as well and you guys know how you do these we usually have two guests sometimes one for one to two hours to
dive into all things around who we are featuring and what they would like to speak about so tonight
obviously it will be about cheer and what gene is working on so we're super excited about that as
well so as always we'll get the team in on the stage we will get gene on the stage which he already is because this
man is super rapid and never misses and we will dive into the space tonight so thank you everyone
that is already here and in the building we appreciate legends we have the bacon sandwich
in the building happy friday bacon how we doing sir all right boys and girls. Yeah, no, I'm well fed. I needed to eat desperately.
And, yeah, I feel ready to rock and roll.
Our book is basically done.
We're going to be sending copies out to people, like, really soon.
People that are pre-ordered.
So I'm looking forward to that land on people's doorsteps.
And Chia plays a part in this book.
There is a story um that uh
that is involved around chia so uh but yeah that's cool man it's i'm so excited for it i can't wait
i can't wait for people to start having this i've got i've got a printed version in my hands already
um there are a few mistakes and a few errors that have now been rectified
um but i have the copy of all the errors so i feel quite cool about that i have i have the copy
with uh with all the mistakes let's go let's go yeah absolutely super excited about that and
that's the beauty of web3 is you can build you can grow you can connect you can do amazing things
lots of talents come together especially when you have amazing blockchains that just work that is always a key element of all of
this as well so super excited about that and uh we will dive over to gene hoffman happy friday sir
and thank you for joining us how we're doing this evening gene happy friday getting the mute button
there sorry about that uh doing great uh looking forward to the fact it is a friday for uh those
of us work for chia network inc uh monday's off so it's actually kind of a vacation weekend actually
oh nice so you don't work on a monday at all well you know there's uh there's the official
rules and like whether you see me doing stuff or not that's yeah yeah not supposed to be working
but you'll always catch me doing something.
Yeah, unfortunately.
No, I love that.
No, that's awesome.
That is, I like that.
I mean, I think everyone should just do that.
Let's just write Mondays off.
That'll make the whole world happier.
Well, look, I think that the four on, four off, or four on, three off, I guess it is,
isn't actually a bad pattern. But at the you know i i do say that people should get real
down time like for example a lot of people don't know this but i try not to work on saturday's
period uh you know once in a while that gets that gets blown up by like a presentation or something
but i try to keep that pretty minimal and just you know have a day that i really don't need to
think about chia even though i still think about you but it's good it's important to set that
time aside though and to be like yeah i'm gonna switch off um like i i do it with the community
community thing sometimes you know mostly on a sunday i'm like sunday is the day where you won't
see me you know doing the community community stuff you know um because all work or or any of
that stuff so um you do need to do that because there was a point
where i was working six days a week so i i really needed that day i really needed that day yeah look
what i find is that as long as i get that time off i'm just that much more effective in the other
times i am working otherwise if you just kind of keep smearing it you like get slower and slower
on everything yeah of course yeah yeah exactly exactly
but the idea was you use it as a reset right you use it as a way to recharge and and you can you
can tackle the big things later you know like i say just just kind of put it to the back of your
mind trying to think about it because at the moment it's not important you know the world's
not burning so it's everything is fine well depends who you ask um yeah no and also for me at least often what will
happen is during those times i'm not thinking about it i think my subconscious is working
on things and i'll come back and be like hey what about this idea which wouldn't happen
it's that kind of um oh there's something sometimes just going on a walk and not thinking
about the thing allows you to then find
a solution to the thing i've been doing some crazy crap in the shower yeah that's exactly yeah you
know everyone knows that all the best ideas were written on the toilet right so you know it's uh
yeah but you know when you switch off from it it can reveal things to you that you weren't even
thinking about because you're stuck in this kind of loop of you know your own thoughts and then you kind of break the loop and all of a
sudden that actually yeah definitely you need to set that time aside and you know holidays are
important getting away from your you know you get the same four walls for a few days
that's always super super useful i think that helps a lot
i don't put too much
stress on a holiday you know my holidays are pretty chill yeah we may do this we
may do that you know okay we have to book something okay I guess I'm
definitely doing something now so we're way off topic but this just reminds me I
have some friends who like go harder on vacations than they do on day-to-day
life and it's like no we don't go to three museums today
what yeah i can kind of see that side as well because you want to kind of let loose and
not to worry about anything and you know fill that time with with value but sometimes you just
got to switch off and just recharge i mean yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, you just need that. Well, I do it because I get to wander over my boat and it's a instant feeling of like, it's quiet.
It's beautiful.
Like nobody's there to bother me.
It's very nice that way.
Yeah.
I see it as a proper escape.
You're away from everyone and everything.
It's good.
Yeah.
I love the four on three off just works.
It just does.
Like you said
giving people that you know that time like when i was doing that as myself um i was working away
from home as well so i felt like i had more time in the family and you come back more recharged and
yeah i always thought when i did it i was like the whole world needs to do this because when i
was doing the four on three off um i were doing 12 hour shifts as well but it was worth doing
because you felt like
that when he wasn't there he was able to capitalize on you know you got a day of recovery and then a
weekend and then back to work but yeah yeah i will say obviously this doesn't apply to everybody
like you know there's people on the chia team where they'd just rather you know buying away
a little bit every day and get the overall work done you know i don't personally care but i just know what works for me right yeah that's it no that's the attitude to have that's the winning
attitude right there if the work's getting done and it's getting done promptly everybody's okay
yes absolutely absolutely well you know again you know we appreciate you joining us massive thank
you to the community that are
listening in um appreciate everyone that shares the when we set the spaces in advance and you know
a lot of people show love to that they share it out their comment and drop it to other people and
put it in different groups and stuff we really appreciate that that is awesome um that is how
we are able to reach more people to listen to gene to learn about cheer to see the community
and a massive shout out to the tang gang to the cheer community you guys are legendary and
it's awesome it's exciting it's very refreshing to see the community and the momentum and the
excitement and the technology being you know effective and exciting to you know learn about
what's to come what's coming what you've done, what you're doing. It's brilliant.
So we'll dive into that tonight.
And we've not spoken for a month or so, so I don't know if you've managed to do many
things in that since we last spoke.
But if you have, please share with definitely all ears.
Pardon me, absolutely a few things.
So one thing is, for anybody who hasn't seen it, I wrote a nice kind of end of year blog,
I think mid-December on the Chia.net slash blog, which is a really good summary of what happened last year.
And without it meaning to, it really ended up being this firming of a base for a whole bunch of things, you know, the launch of gaming to alpha, the SEC request to switch how we're doing crypto trusts.
And so it really tees up 2026 to be kind of the rollout and, you know,
execution of that vision. And, you know, we've already spoken with the SEC on our next meeting,
not yet able to give good timeline guidance, but everything is going as expected or better.
And, you know, I think the interaction we're having is that they're being workmanlike and
want to get it done too. So, you know, that's moving interaction we're having is that they're being workmanlike and want to get it done, too.
So, you know, that's moving forward.
For those of you who are aware of it, Commuto is doing a little side quest.
It's in the securitization of equity space.
And that is in the process of closing. Once it closes, we can talk a lot more about it because we think it's a really interesting way to look at investing differently and kind of show parts of the future
of Mudo vision, which is not just ACs and DCs, but the products that can build on ACs and DCs as well.
For those of you who don't know what ACs and DCs are, Permuda is taking blue chip stocks like
Microsoft and Broadcom and splitting their equity component separately from their dividend
components. So you can buy kind of the dividend in perpetuity. So all those things are happening.
So you can buy kind of the dividend in perpetuity.
So all those things are happening.
At the same time, an important thing in the ecosystem happened last couple days, which is CircuitDAO, which is a DAI equivalent over collateralized stablecoin launched on Gia.
And it's being quickly added into the various parts of the ecosystems, wallets and that sort of thing.
And there'll be more there soon. We're kind of excited about that because it is a, you know, a permissionless
stablecoin that's native to Chia. And, you know, the over-collateralized dime model has worked
really well, actually. It's not Terra Luna. And so from that perspective, you know, we think it's
an interesting, important part of the ecosystem just because, you know, when you're dealing with most stablecoin issuers, they have, you know, revocability rights and freeze rights. And that
may be not what you want from your cash that you're trying to use to buy something or move around.
So anyway, that's all exciting stuff. I'm also really excited that the RFP window closed for
gaming partners. And I think Bram's done a good job between a blog post and some marketing material
that's gone out on X and LinkedIn recently explaining that it's an ecosystem of peer-to-peer
gaming that we really want to have. It's hard to get all the infrastructure together to be able to
do lightning channel style gaming. But once you do, writing games isn't all that hard. And it's
really now getting the ecosystem around anti-cheat measures. How do you meet new players?
You know, this kind of social network around poker and these other games.
So that's all really exciting and, you know, happening in real time.
That's just it.
It's the community that are building all these, you know, weird and wonderful things.
You're sort of utilizing the tools that have been kind of created for him
essentially yeah here's the tools go make cool stuff you know yeah one of the most ambitious
i think is actually a battleship pewter peer battleship for money for money oh oh what a great
game as well i forget how good that is i mean yeah i did always used to beat my brother and
he never used to like it i won't go into how i responded to that but i used to love the fact that he almost thought i was cheating all
the time and i'm like how can i be you set the game up but no i used to really enjoy um i used
to really enjoy that game so i imagine that's gonna be really fun yeah that is one of the games
that kind of stretches to the kind of farthest extent of the kinds of turns that you want to
have but that is a good example of you know that and not much more yeah that's brilliant super excited to see how uh
see how that comes about and how that looks and uh how how what people do with it because i think
that'd be really fun as well because there's you know there's a lot of communities within the cheer
community which i think i love that element of it and i think that'll be a cool way for communities to be able to you know enjoy
the time around each other as well like you said you know the the four on three off the three off
doesn't have to be doing nothing i mean if it can be it's good but you know having a couple of days
to just have a little bit of fun and enjoy the tech that you build and uh helps keep it meaningful
and you know inspires you to want to keep putting the work in.
Yeah, well, and you know, that's kind of funny
because where we are and have been in the evolution
of the GIA blockchain ecosystem is,
it's a bit more of a nights and weekends kind of thing
for the community.
And that makes sense.
It's not yet a place where people are getting their day job.
So it's always kind of funny because the community
is kind of more active on the days that like,
I'm trying to take off.
But speaking of community, the one thing I left out is that we're really close to being done on new proof of space.
And, you know, that's going to be, I think, a very fun new project, even though, yes, it's replotting.
It's replotting back to a level of tech that we didn't think was, well, it is impressive that we hadn't had to take any of the trade-offs badly and get rid of, you know, any incremental compression. So getting back to, you know,
one terabyte, one vote, and that really is true. And the hardware differences are minor to do,
you know, plot times, et cetera. I just think it's really pretty powerful. Gigabyte plots that
plot on CPU in like under five minutes and only use about eight and a half gigs
of RAM. So it's looking really nice. And that's a long-term project. You know, we sort of scheduled
a, published a timeline for that. And the nice part is I would say we're within about a month
of whatever our current estimated timelines are on that. And it looks like we might even kind of pull the 3.0 launch together on time.
It was really just getting proof of space knocked out
because we kept finding new and better ways to make it simpler, easier,
easier to plot, harder to cheat.
Yeah, that's really cool because, you know, I know that for that for you know a lot of people the plotting
element is the part that a lot of people are curious about and probably the part that people
probably find more complex due to the the desire to want to check it out and probably do it so
it's cool that that's being made easier definitely i think people will really appreciate that
yeah we're at a place where you know it really does start to get that you could,
with a little trust, be able to farm on your phone.
You'll definitely be able to plot on your phone.
You just don't kind of want to have to monitor
the entire network with your phone wire connectivity.
But if you've got somebody you trust
to give you a push notification,
you know, all of a sudden that spare space in your phone
could absolutely be winning you, Gia.
So with this new plotting thing, I remember you saying there was like a sliding scale of adoption on there.
How do you mean?
There's a new feature in it that lets you kind of make your plots stronger, if you will.
It doesn't mean that you win more,
but it means that the likelihood that you ever have to replot goes down.
I was thinking like when it initially goes live, there's going to be a certain amount of adoption
of that, right? Oh yeah. There's an entire window of the adoption. So in other words,
the idea is that there's going to be a hard fork date and that day, both plots will now be effective.
But over the next, and this is still kind of being debated by the community, but let's
just use six months as a stalking horse.
Then the likelihood that a proof of space 1.0 plot will win will slowly linearly decrease
across that entire period.
So as you kind of get to the back, you know, 20%, you're
effectively only going to win 20% of the time you otherwise would with a proof of space 1.0 plot.
Well, you'll win at the same rate always with a proof of space 2.0 plot. So that gives you real
time during that initial window to slowly but surely replot. You know, it's literally delete
a old plot 1.0 and fill it with, you know, the new plot size plots and just rinse,
lather, repeat until you're done. It's important to note that the new plots are K28, I believe,
which is one gigabyte. And so you're going to fit a lot of new plots into one old plot.
And so you're going to fit a lot of new plots into one old plot.
But we also have groups coming so that you can make sure that you don't have to,
if you have really large hard drives, end up accessing them too much.
Oh, so there's a group feature as well. That's really cool.
Yeah, you'll be able to put multiple K28s in a single group,
and then you'll kind of know whether or not
you need to look it up,
and so you can cut your lookups down considerably.
You know, if you're under like a 20 terabyte hard drive,
don't worry about this.
But the thing is, as the future, you know,
we expect hard drives to keep getting bigger
until SSD finally flips them.
But, you know, we want to future proof it
so that you didn't have a situation
where you were actually putting real load on your hard drive
if you had like a 40 terabyte hard drive.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Did you want to jump in on that, Began?
Yeah, you mentioned that people have got a mind share on their phone.
Yeah. Yeah, so today to try to do that on your phone would be a little bit painful because you'd have to like connect to a node and
you know have all that traffic uh and you know the k32s are just large so large that they're not
really easily put on your phone now people have taken android phones put linux on them and plot
and farm them so it's not that you can't do it.
But, you know, with a slightly different protocol, imagine a pool you somewhat trust.
You could basically have an app and a push notification that only when a challenge comes that, you know,
that you kind of know you're likely to compete in, then do you look up your plots after the push notification.
And if you win, you know, send a proof back to the pool and the pool would forward that chain.
So, you know, at one gigabyte, you know, especially as phones are going to 250 gigabyte minimums,
you know, you generally have like half your phone available.
Yeah, I just think it's cool. You can, people will really get that in their hands i think uh
people will enjoy that yeah i mean first we're targeting you know pcs desktops laptops because
especially one gigabyte you now get even more into being able to farm empty space you know with 50
gigabyte sizes it was like oh you know i i don't have enough room or if I do I get deleted quick
here when you're deleting in one gig increments you really can just like fill up the empty space
to your drive and we're to make it easy to have software in the background you know keeping your
drive just enough empty that you can save new stuff to it yeah I guess it's getting that efficiency to make it so it's not completely taking over
the device, essentially.
Yeah, and look, the good news about farming and harvesting is that it is pretty darn lightweight.
You know, as long as you don't mind a little bit of network connectivity, you know, you
don't have to run the kind of heavyweight components at all on your local.
And we're going to be continuing to improve the kind of reference software for farming.
You know, a lot of that's gonna be making the migration easy.
I mean, literally pointed at a directory
and have it just a little bit surely figure out what's going
on and delete plots and add new plots back.
But that also means that we wanna put some more effort
into kind of automated farming where you kind of,
as I said, like pointed at a drive and go,
hey, I wanna keep 5% of this drive free at all times, but otherwise farm it.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's cool.
A lot of the user interface resources that we've been putting on Cloud Wallet
will be kind of temporarily migrating over to, you know,
the new farming interfaces to really make migration.
And some of these nicer features work really well.
So I mean is there a timeline on that release because I know you said you've
made a significant progress? Yeah I believe if the actual 3.0 software
release is going to be in this quarter,
that is not necessarily when the hard fork is started. So the 3.0 software is the first
edition of Chia that knows how to run after the hard fork. So it has Chia Proof of Space 2.0 in
it and can figure out where it is in time moving forward. And that gives, and the whole reason for that is that we want to get that adopted by, you know, 50, 60% of the farmers before the hard fork hits.
You know, things will keep working because again, proof of space 1.0 plots will still work,
but you can have farmers seeing proof of space 2 plots that are on old software and they would not
agree that that was the heaviest chain. Now that takes care of itself as long as more than half of the farmers have adopted.
And all we're talking about is a software upgrade.
You don't have to change your plots.
You just got to move from,
well, I think we're gonna release 2.6 here very shortly,
but it'll probably be 2.6 to three.
So the thing is, I don't see many other blockchains like other than maybe cardano
that are actually like doing additional things with their network you know and adding
upgrading and testing things i kind of feel like there's there needs to be more of that
one of the things one that's kind of unique about us is that we have like real customers who have real things they need. I mean, you know, the World Bank of, you know, end to end, how do we onboard
people? How do we manage paying dividends on chain? You know, what's a shareholder vote going to look
like? It really forces us to make sure that all of the edges are off and all the features and
functionality you want are there. And as you do that, you start going, hey, wouldn't it be nice?
And so, you know, things get in the product roadmap, like dividend auto reinvesting. You know, it's those kinds of things that by having these real use
cases that have real demand and real money, it really forces us to continue to enhance everything
as we move forward. And, you know, proof of space is kind of a unique piece of this we ran two big competitions back
when we were originally designing this as bram used to joke you know don't have invent new math
here in your pipeline we had it three different places i'd argue four but uh for whatever reason
vdf's proof of time had captured the imagination globally it was kind of those things that happens
in crypto once in a while where like a new class of cryptographic primitive kind of comes together
from a bunch of different research. And so like, in fact, when the first VDF papers came
out, like two of them came out within weeks of each other and either party knew each other
at the time. So we were able to run contests there for money and get a lot of the low hanging
fruit of the ways that you could kind of cheat the system.
And so when we launched Proof of Time, you know, it worked flimingly.
And when we put it in an ASIC, it kind of performed better than we hoped in the sense that the ASIC only sped it up about 4x.
And, you know, from there, it gets really hard to speed up Proof of Time, and that's a good thing.
You want to kind of keep it asymptotically up against the maximum theoretical, you know,
CPU speed.
And so we'll at some point do a new ASIC because, you know, as things get to smaller form factors,
you do get some increases, but like it might be 10% faster.
It's not 50% faster.
But with proof of space, it was just complicated enough and just weird enough and just
different enough that people kind of poked at it, but like didn't really grok it. And it took
launching mainnet, you know, having billions of dollars of value around to really bring out folks
like the no SSD folks, Max and others, Dr. Nick, to really dive deep on it. Now, that process has meant that there's like
five or six people in the world who really truly understand all the different techniques around
compressing plots. And, you know, we were able to bring one of the best on team with Dr. Nick.
Obviously, you know, we've worked with Max. We also have, you know, other kind of luminaries
in the plotting space. And so it's been wild to be able to take that same both academic and development team with
this, these kind of new heads and new processes and rebuild proof of space kind of from the
ground up.
And it means that like we are able to significantly lower a bunch of stuff.
You know, one example of that, you know, I set us at the K32 level because I was worried about RAM speeds over time. And we
seemed to be kind of RAM bottlenecked when I was really looking at how we were plotting.
You know, that was not an optimal choice. That's not where we wanted it to be. We would much prefer
to the plots to be smaller and more granular, but now we're able to do that. And we're able to do
that in a way that defends us from, you know, really large, you think, you know, H100 rental
GPU attacks where you're trying to do, you know, massive amounts of proof of work that are not
economically rational over time. It might be economically rational this hour to reorganize,
to double spend, you know, those kinds of things. So anyway, it was just a fascinating thing where
it took being out in the wild to really get people to dig in enough
to kind of extract that amount of intelligence
that we now have about both proof of time and proof of space.
So we're really excited about, you know,
proof of space 2.0, Chia 3.0,
because it really is, you know, very low power.
It is one terabyte, one vote,
but you can bring so many more terabytes
that we're just kind of stranded space
now that we've got much smaller plot sizes and we add some more features and functionality
of the plotting and farming.
So yeah, I was kind of in that camp as well where I learned about Chia before it launched
and then when it launched, there was lots of other things going on um that i wasn't
really paying much attention and then i kind of revisited it later um and had seen that you know
things have progressed move forward the chart didn't look particularly juicy and um yeah i i
uh i kind of started looking back into it started doing spaces started meeting cheer people um like dracarta's dev um
he's one of the cheer dudes i love um but yeah so i started meeting people around here and i was
like okay i need to start looking at this again then got to speak to you and bram and you know
met a whole bunch of the team and stuff at the uh london event so um yeah i've enjoyed uh my
journey with chia because uh because uh, cause, uh, yeah,
I get to spend time with you guys and get to spend some of the guy that created the thing,
you know?
Yeah.
Well, and look, you know, I want to shout out our community.
We developed a different kind of community.
I mean, there's certainly some, we've, even our crypto degences are different.
Um, a lot more of what the Chia community is, is people honestly interested in how to use this,
how it's going to impact the world in a positive way, the technology itself and kind of the
exploration. I mean, you know, I hear a lot of farmers are like, you know, now I understand how
Linux works and that's been fascinating. Um, and it means that our community kind of behaves
differently. I would certainly say, you know, I don't probably say this enough, Bram and I
agree with everyone. The price sucks right now, But the thing is, it's not really directly under
our control from an altcoin market, except it's about to be. And that's been really fascinating,
both being able to let Americans be able to more easily buy XCH via ACH, which is going through
some changes, but I think it's going to be really powerful moving forward. And especially as we want
to launch gaming, you know, you want to be able to step up and get some, get some today and
just go. But as Permuda revenue comes on, we're going to be able to get in a situation where we're
not having to sell at all. And we'll likely in fact be net buyers to keep the ACH wallet full.
So, you know, it's a, it's a real pivotal time and really down to kind of a month to month view of, you know, when that
revenue starts kicking in, you know, I can tell you that because Permudo is pretty fully baked,
you know, a lot of that cost that has been born to build that up is been paid. And so, you know,
obviously going to be a little pulse here as we kind of finalize these last little changes, but,
pulse here as we kind of finalize these last little changes, but you know, it's an exciting
time. And I think, you know, once we can demonstrate real scale, real revenue from
Permuto and other projects, and by the way, there are some things we are not talking about because
things want to launch without first being spoke about. So there's not just Permuto in the roadmap
around tokenization. You're going to see additional items there that are third party, but are, you know,
customers of Chia Network, Inc.
So it's just a really interesting time,
and it's building from such a stronger base
of people honestly interested
in what this can do for everybody.
Let's go.
That is super exciting.
And, you know, great work, like you said,
by the community, you know, by the know great work like you said by the community
you know by the team exciting times ahead by the sound of it um i do have an amazing question in
the comment section um by someone who always asks amazing questions and i'm sure as soon as i read
it you'll be like yep i know you said that but i just want to say a quick hello to miss evie who
is now on stage how are we doing evie happy friday happy. Happy Friday. Doing well, doing well.
I'm just excited to be here listening to Gene and hearing all the updates about Chia.
Let's go. Yeah, sorry about the technical difficulties.
I believe a few people are having issues with spaces tonight.
Yeah, I think that's just a theme here over on X, but we're up, we're running, we're good.
Yeah, that's true.
I think my favorite tweet was, is X running on Sui?
That's definitely a good one.
Let's go.
Let's go.
But, yes, so the question I was going to ask,
because I know there will be a great answer to this.
So I'll ask the question and you can guess who asked it.
What is your opinion on the draft clarity act bill and where does CHIA fit in specifically the pre-farm aspects of the act?
So I'll answer this in two different parts.
I'm going to talk about, you know, where we sit on the act and what we think about the act.
And then I'll talk about if the act passed, what would the impact be for CHIA?
So rewinding on that, you know, there's kind of three camps right now.
There are various folks who have economic interest in stable coins and want to pay interest on stable coins.
And they're more worried about that than anything else.
I think some of their comments are not fully ingenuous, if you will, about why they oppose the bill right now.
There's certainly banks that don't want the bill to go forward because they, well, they weirdly want the bill to go forward, but with no yield in it.
And that's going to be a showstopper for the people who want to pay yield.
And then there's all of us who are all truly actually decentralized.
And we kind of like the bill because if anything, it's a good increment forward.
You know, one of the things I love about it is that it forces a new rulemaking around transfer agent stuff at the SEC,
because there's all sorts of like kind of annoyingly bad technology specific rules that are supporting transfers.
And, you know, they should just follow Delaware's lead and make it very easy to do a transfer and treat the blockchain as the master record at the issuers option.
So, you know, our view is that the bill is fine.
I, you know, I don't really have a strong horse in the yield, no yield at all, partially
because I also don't think stable coin yield is really the right answer
for end users and institutions. I think a money market fund coin is actually better because you're
just directly going after the money market fund numbers. You don't have to deal with all the kind
of extra hoops and steps and such. For us, though, there are about four or five different ways that
we would be considered continuously not a commodity.
You know, one of the kind of key concepts in the law is that if you're a registered entity, there's no need to report.
But the thing is, even if we're having to report, the reports are a subset of what we were already planning to do on Form S1 and Ks and Qs.
So we've done all that work.
You know, you guys can go see that work on the crypto task force, SEC crypto task force
website.
So, you know, for us, it's a pretty good bill.
You know, I would be supportive of it passing.
I think a lot of the work ends up being later in the rulemakings.
I think it kicks off like 40 rulemakings.
So anyway, you know, that's my view.
I don't think if it doesn't get done soon,
I don't think it gets done this year.
I will say that.
If it doesn't get done by kind of end of Q1,
I think everybody's going to turn to the midterms
and it'll be on the shelf.
That's awesome.
Thank you for answering that question.
I appreciate that
can you guess who asked it i assume it was slowest time lord it was tim monkey zoo
monkey zoo it's a small list yeah no thank you it was a great question i appreciate that
so when it comes to um these these bills these acts, how are you feeling about the way that the infrastructure for Chira has been built?
Because by the sounds of it, you're in communication with the SEC quite frequently.
Does that help you build future proof and build ahead of time?
help you you know build future proof and build ahead of time well so it's there are only a couple
of us who are what i would call up against the rock face of actually putting publicly traded
securities on and not some sort of like rapper or um wall garden and you know our feedback
the couple of us who are doing this really did get into the bill and that's important because you know i think
there is a broad buy-in that the the blockchain especially for equities trading is such a better
way to do it than the dtc system is today but that it needs you know some clarity it's named the bill
uh to make it even easier now you know we're going to be able to launch with or without clarity
clarity is not required for bermudo to go to to market, but there's just some ambiguities would be nice to be gone
with, you know, instead of like the SEC kind of just not looking that direction, making it very
clear that this is something you can do. But as I said, you know, how do I put this? There's,
there's another thing about going on about clarity, which is the Democrats really want to try to keep
the Trump administration and
his family from profiting or profiteering or whatever you want to call it.
I know what their opinion is.
And that makes the bill somewhat hard too,
because it's got that extra component that they want to get in.
And that is kind of antithetical to like somebody trying to follow us law for
securities and put securities on a blockchain that are completely legal as it is today so you know it's it's interesting the the fact that these points
are being made in the bill uh and you know are points that are themselves easily votable on in
other words you do have a bike by a bipartisan consensus that you know securities on chains are
securities but we should modernize
the nitty gritty of securities laws to make it even easier and clearer about how they work.
That helps because of course, then, you know, you're talking to the SEC staff and others,
you know, they can see that that is the intent of Congress and that, you know, what you're asking
to do right now to make sure that this, you know, ambiguity isn't a problem is, you know,
aligned with the right direction that public policy is taking. right now to make sure that this, you know, ambiguity isn't a problem is, you know, aligned
with the right direction that public policy is taking. And I'll just add, because it's truly
peer-to-peer and we're not kidding, so much of this stuff falls away. In fact, that's one of the
reasons I don't have a big problem in the DeFi section is all of the stuff that is in the DeFi
section of the bill is where there's a man behind the curtain.
They've got a M of N multi-sig that they can rewrite history with and it's like, nope,
can't do that.
You can't do that on a Tibet swap.
You can't do that on circuit DAO.
You can't do that after an offer file.
Things are truly peer to peer and final on the geo blockchain.
Though they're also not final because you can use a clawback if you're worried about
finality. Imagine a grown up set of tools to be able to actually transfer money and assets safely and securely.
I've always wondered about the clawback feature. How does that actually work?
So V2 is what I'm going to describe.
What it does, it basically says, okay, I'm going to set a clawback period. And what's
going to happen is that during that period, I as the sender can claw the transaction back,
but that at a specific set time, I will lose that ability. And then the person who is receiving it
is the only person who can then receive it thereafter. It does take one more step where
someone has to poke it basically, but anyone can poke it. And the sender that has a clawback on it can, after they're
comfortable, go ahead and push it forward. You can kind of say, ah, you know, I'm not going to wait
24 hours. I checked on it for 15 minutes and I'm comfortable. I've got everything right.
Send it forward. You know, it's one of the things we use in ACH where, you know, we deliver you the
Chia the day you initiate your ACH transaction.
We put a clawback on it until we know we've got settled funds and haven't been defrauded and all those sorts of things.
And, you know, in certain cases where we like spot a fraud, we just claw back and therefore we've lost nothing except for like a $15 refund fee.
So, you know, from that perspective, clawbacks really kind of change what you can do.
And you can start getting fancy with them where you do things like you have a clawback that is only accessible to a third party and they're like
an arbitrator or you know only if one of the two parties contested is that third party the arbitrator
so it just really gives you kind of granular ability to make good business rules um you know
offer files you're peer-to-peer with somebody else you know you don't really want to wait on that but
if you've got something where you know you make sure you didn't make a typo
or you want to prove funds but you're not yet done with the transaction,
you can set that out there and you're clock ticking.
It's really useful the other direction.
So like, for example, if anybody were ever able to get enough of the senior brass of Chia Network Inc to send a pre-farm transaction
that we didn't otherwise want to send. We've got it set up so that any of the signers of the pre-farm
transactions, any of those keys can issue a clawback. And that clawback is immediate. It,
you know, has real safety feature that way. And so it makes like attacking people with wrenches
a lot less effective
yeah that's awesome i imagine that's going to be really useful right across the board
um and does that kind of work both ways so let's say i i purchased something from you
um and you have the clawback feature in place.
Does that kind of put both assets basically somewhere in the middle so that
obviously you,
you have the ability to claw it back,
but the funds that I have put forward for the asset is in sort of like the
middle until the clawback period is ending.
The other person has claimed the asset.
Well,
so the way it does work is that the clawback for B2 clawbacks has an absolute maximum time on it.
One week, one hour, whatever it is.
If the person who sent it doesn't claw it back within that period,
then the only person who can touch it is the person who was sent to.
Now, it does let you do things with like, you know,
if you've got offline settlement, you know,
as long as the person receiving the good from the offline settler is comfortable that they're going to be honest or
can be held to account, you know, you can use it kind of as this, Hey, I'm delivering it to you.
You know, I've got it for you. It is earmarked for you, but because something that's supposed
to happen in the real world hasn't happened yet, I can't release it yet. And, you know, as I said,
like with ACH, we set it longer than we expect it to take and then the moment it you know successfully
finishes sooner uh we accelerate it right then
yeah that's awesome i think i think that's gonna be really beneficial especially in the, you know, especially for a payment
because that way people can see that what they want paying is in existence
and it's there.
And, of course, you know, for communication has taken place up to that point,
then people will be able to really find faith in that transaction through that.
So I think that's really cool.
It's the whole set of functionality.
It really allows you to take kind of any business process, you know, any commerce process and really
mirror it on chain, adding the strengths of the chain. You know, in a lot of ways, the only places
where we as Chia network and, you know, Chia advocates are going to have to start explaining
is it also opens a set of ways that you do permissions that really weren't possible
before. You know, it is things like in the future, we're going to have these multi-sigs where the
clawback period decreases based on the number of signatures. So you can imagine that like,
if you got some accounts payable person, they can spend up to a million dollars with a 30-day
clawback. But then if a CFO signs it, it's now 24 hours, right? So it's really
showing people what's possible and, you know, using things like vaults and cloud wallet to do
vaults of vaults and custody and control and all of a sudden like make this stuff easy enough that
everyday people can use it, but interestingly have all the things that your chief security officer
would really love. I mean, you know, as we continue
to enhance the cheetah signer and cloud wallet and vault, we're going to be able to really make
it so that wrench attacks are really hard. And, you know, there's this key thing in security,
physical security, I should say, that the two people you have to worry about are professionals
and the idiots. The idiots are still always a risk because they just don't know better.
But the professionals, you know, they operate in a very kind of constrained set of assumptions. And if you
push on those assumptions, you know, they're smart enough to know that it's kind of not worth the
risk. And so, you know, again, having multi-party signature, having these long clawback periods,
you know, being able to like kidnap somebody for days, actually like two or three people for days,
that's really hard actually.
And it means that you have a bunch of like co-conspirators.
And so, you know, it's not gonna likely go well
for the bad guy and the smart bad guys know this.
So, you know, you really kind of want to be able
to build these custody infrastructures
that a smart person will look at
and will realize that that's really challenging to break.
And so they won't try.
You know, it was critical that we could really make self-custody
be something for mere mortals
that they wouldn't lose,
that wouldn't decay over time, but would have these really strong security guarantees yeah i love
that because you know it it matters and it's really important especially when you're looking at
you know we don't know what value we're talking you know like that could be you know people's life savings it could be a whole company's
you know liquidity so having that in place i think's a really good idea and i think that that
could be helpful as well like you said if um you know people kind of will come to learn that
you'd have to have you know a specialized ops team to to take funds from people it's just not
going to be worth it yeah and you know right now if you look at chia cloud wallet and vault and go
wait would i want to have my phone have everything in there on my phone know that that is not the
final vision in any way what we really recommend ultimately is that you have the high value, low transaction stuff on another device, like an iPad, an Android,
a tablet, and another older phone. And your phone knows about the existence of both keys,
both the key you're using day-to-day to trade, to spend, to buy, whatever, and the key that's
offline, because it's been generated on a device that after you
got the software on it, you never take online again. And it communicates with that device via
QR code. So, you know, you get the push notification that somebody's trying, that you're trying to
sign to move like some Microsoft DCs into your hot wallet because you want to sell them.
And it will let you get a clear sign view and you'll look at your phone and go, okay, that looks
like what I want. And it'll say,
do you want to start the process with your offline device? Yes. You'll get a QR code that moves.
Your offline device camera will look at that and go, okay, boom, you'll pop up. You'll phone the
device. These match. You will sign on the device. It will create a QR code that your phone will read
with its camera and go, yep, boom, push, and into the cloud and spend.
So when you're traveling, don't bring the other device,
leave it in a safe, whatever.
But that other device is, again, recoverable in the same ways
that we've got these various modes of recovery.
So even if you lose that device, you can recover it with a 12-hour,
one-week, whatever you set delay.
Yeah, that's really cool.
You know, making things more liquid but more secure,
I think is quite the flex, if I'm honest.
I think it's really cool.
I think I can just really see how, you know,
these use cases do make it easier to maneuver.
I think that sounds like what chokes a lot of people up
is the functionality of the security as well.
Yeah, exactly.
And the fact that instead of having a customized, specialized device
where your PII gets leaked
and now you get ledger phishing attacks all day, every day,
the supply chain for iPads and iPhones and
Android devices is deep and rich and thick. And, you know, it's not every single one that works,
but most of them. And, you know, and there's other kind of cool feature about what I'm describing
is like, you could be on vacation with just your phone and you get like a major dividend payment
and you don't really want that to be in your hot wallet. Well, you don't need your other device
to move things into the colder storage because you can always move them
in. So you really have a lot of capabilities and you know, you can add rules in the future
that would like allow up to a certain amount that the cold wallet would let the hot wallet transfer
out in a 24-hour period. You know, so you do have the ability to go, well, normally I don't need
more than a thousand dollars a day, but you know, I'm going to do this thing and I need $10,000 so I can just do that.
That is so cool.
Yeah, you can just really see the practicality of it as well.
You can just see where that would be really beneficial and help people be more secure, but be able to, you know,
travel and earn and move funds around safely, but without any, you know, without it being too
complex as well. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you want people, you want to be able to easily and
straightforwardly set your kind of risk profile. It's like, you know, if I lose my phone and the
person forced me to do biometrics,
the maximum they could steal from me is like this thousand bucks, whatever. But I also know
that like, that's hard. So it's unlikely to happen. And like, you know, by the way,
if somebody unlocks your phone with biometrics, they can probably get into your banking account
and your traditional brokerage firm and all that. So, you know, you're kind of using the same
third profile. We're going to do some neat things that are going to make it even harder
for that to work. You know, things like, Hey, if you know, in the app lock, if you're not in a
geo fence, like your home or your office that you trust, you might have to have an additional
passphrase beyond just biometrics. So, you know, it's those kinds of things where we can really
make it, you know, easy and, you know, make it low risk it's like okay yeah you might be denied
your funds for a short time because you lost a phone or you lost that other device but you are
not going to be denied them in the any longer time scale than a few days or a few weeks you know
that's a that's a very different kind of paradigm because like that doesn't happen today with cash in your wallet.
Yeah, I like that.
And I think that that's brilliant as well, because, you know, you'd rather not have access for a short period of time than have everything you own completely vulnerable, surely. Yeah, and one thing that's been nice is that the state of the art of online security
has gotten a lot better.
If you're an Apple device user
and you have advanced data protection turned on,
it's really powerful.
It's very hard for somebody to steal
or manage your iCloud account.
And so that plus using passkeys in that account really makes a very strong
situation to the point where, you know,
we're probably going to support the ability to recover your vault to a new
iPhone when you're upgrading like in five minutes,
because the key is in iCloud, but Apple can't get to it.
Anybody but you can't get to it.
So, you know, when you have those kinds of roots of trust to anchor on, it just really changes the game about what you can do and how easy you can't get to it. So when you have those kinds of roots of trust to anchor on,
it just really changes the game
about what you can do
and how easy you can make this.
Yeah, I think it's a complete game changer
to be able to set the parameters yourself like that
and make it secure.
And like I said, liquid and secure.
And I think that it's really important that not only can you remain liquid and secure,
but as well you can set clawbacks.
And it seems like it's really set up for the business world where,
like you said earlier about the same level of security as all your other apps. So if, you know, people are using biometrics to
get access to things, then they don't have an access to everything. So it's as secure as
what you make your devices basically. Yeah, exactly. And look, you know, it's going to
take a little bit of time for people to really understand the change here, but we're excited
about the way we're launching this. And what I mean by that is, you know, a lot of the Permuda revenue at very first
is going to be on New York Stock Exchange. So, you know, good news for the revenue, good news for,
you know, financing Chia Network Inc. Not as great news for blockchain adoption immediately.
But it turns out that the way we price the Permuda trusts, the both asset certificate and
dividend certificate are worth
more on the blockchain and so it's going to take the larger folks and make them look at the fact
that they can save money make more investment returns and then get introduced to wait you know
we could self-custody this for real and you have that conversation with a person in charge of
security at those institutions to get people to really see that it's like you've now got a toolbox where whatever rule you'd like to kind of put together you absolutely can't
yeah and that's that's a good point actually um i remember kind of talking um in a space
about a year ago now i I think, about global adoption.
And then I remember speaking to somebody and they was like, you know, do you think the world is ready?
You know, is the blockchain world ready for global adoption?
Like, are you ready?
And when I was thinking about it, I thought, you know what, you've got a point.
You know, I think there's a lot of things that kind of need to be done.
I mean, I know, of course, we'd all like the price action of that but you know you know are people really ready for that
you know do people understand how to you know be safe you know the cyber security element of it
you know the practicality of the you know the uis and the functionality of it i think
you know as painful as it might be on the price action element of the space you know there is a
lot to be done for the world to be ready especially when some people still don't even know that
blockchain even exists and you know the the problems that people face every day now that
have got a much better understanding so i think that you know there's still time for for things to
head in the direction it needs to but i still think that more time needs to be spent on
people learning how to you know even manage their own things and manage their own devices and
understand that the decisions that they're making they're making them and that comes with the risks
as well of course you know risks are created by many many different factors but you have to do as much as you can to make sure that the decisions you're making are the right ones and the safest ones.
And, you know, the risk management's all yours as well.
So, you know, as much as we all should have self-sovereignty, it does come with a lot of learning and understanding that is needed as well.
Yeah, I mean, look, I want to underscore your point.
You know, there's this, like, I don't know, playbook that multiple projects have run before us and it all looks the same and it all ends up
about the same way, which is kind of nothing happens. And so we took such a different playbook.
It confused a lot of people, but some of that playbook was really asking these deep questions
of, Hey, if I'm going to put my investment funds on chain and self custody them. What do I really need to make that happen?
No bullshit, actually what has to happen. And so there's a ton of work we've done vaults,
proof of space 2.0 fits in this category because I want to not have mev bots and I want to have
real decentralization and proof space 2.0 pushes the knock metal coefficient back up.
Uh, you know, it's those kinds of things that are the,
when billions of dollars are on the line, how should it work? What are the requirements? What
must be there? Not what whiz-bang new thing did we create? Vaults come from that. It's really
asking the question of, if we really want to take a full lifetime lifecycle view of owning and
managing and self-custaining assets, well, what does that mean? And so it means things like third we really want to take a full lifetime life cycle view of owning and managing
and self-custaining assets. Well, what does that mean?
And so it means things like third party recovery. Uh, you know,
you can opt into having like a virtual safe deposit box and an actual FDIC bank.
And if you die,
then the solution is that either you put your recovery key in your will,
uh, or you have like, you know,
that bank that you've been paying and you go to the
bank and your state proves it's you and the bank says, great. Now tell me where to send this.
But you know, until you have that, you really can't look at somebody and be like,
yeah, you can put $200 million of Microsoft DCs in your, your, uh, vault.
it's a, I get, I get a little extra insight as everybody imagines where I'm talking to some of
these big institutions and we're talking about this stuff and I'll like whip out the iPad and
actually show it to them. And when you see it in person, people are just like, whoa, okay, I get it now.
And so, you know, a lot of what we're about to go do is really put a whole bunch of people
front and center with their economic interests of why do you want to understand the GIA blockchain?
And I think that is only good because once that happens, once you start getting that critical mass
for real folks, not, you know, people who've got bonuses this year on the line at
this institution about their total returns.
You know, 14 basis points matters.
And if it's worth 14 basis points annually to figure this out, they will.
And the more we make it that in fact, like mass world adoption of blockchains really
probably looks like people don't know much about blockchains.
They just work yeah i agree with that we had um we've been doing a space every every month or so with uh
tim monkey zoo and with josh painter um called cheer for dummies just to help people learn about
the cheer blockchain and have a better understanding of it and how to build on there and any questions people might have and
it's been really educational i mean i've learned so much from them from that and there was a point
that that josh made that i thought was really good and it was about something that tim was working on
and he basically said that you don't have to understand everything to build, basically.
That, you know, some of the pieces are kind of already pre-existing and that you can kind of, you know, work with that.
And just to add to that as well, the community are so supportive
with one another on the developer side that there's so many places
that you can go and ask those questions, like from them two
and from a lot of the spaces that Asteroes and more,
um, and out of heart and Dracatus, and, you know, I could list a whole, a whole group of people that
make these spaces where, you know, they're very, very educational. So people can learn how to
get started and then get a deeper understanding as well. Yeah. Look, I think that's a very
important point, which is that there's a design philosophy difference to Chia. And that is,
there is a layer of Chia development, which is hard, like no doubt. But the idea is that there's a design philosophy difference to Chia. And that is there is a layer of Chia
development, which is hard, like no doubt. But the idea is that you muck around in that hard stuff
as a advanced developer to create things that are then repeatably usable by everybody else.
So it's kind of like two layers of being a developer in Chia. There's somebody who writes
Rue or Chialist and really understands coin set model and the edge cases, you know, a yak,
a rigidity, but then a layer up, you don't necessarily need to understand exactly how to
write a cat too, but you can understand how to use a cat to, to tokenize a real world asset that you
are a specialist in. And so there's a lot of building that can occur way above the Chialist
layer. And that's intentional. You want to have these kind of building that can occur way above the G-List player. And that's
intentional. You want to have these kind of core primitives be some of the best in the world,
design them, write them, security test them, get them third-party audited. You know, CAT 2 isn't a
great example. We went through three audits and it took the third audit to find a severe problem
with it. Second audit found a severe, third audit cleared it again. So, you know, now
you have a lot of comfort. Anything you hold as a cat 2 is going to do exactly what a cat 2 should
do. Versus like in Solano and in Ethereum, you're kind of at blank slate with a new program every
time and you're kind of staking somebody else's code and maybe modifying it. And, you know, you
don't really modify the shieldless primitives. You hand them parameters. You say that I want a revocable
cat or I want a cat that can be continuously issued or only issued a million. Those are
kind of the parameters you hand it and then it does what it's supposed to do.
You know, Vaults is a good example. Though Chia Networking and Cloud Vault is the first
thing that supports Vaults, we're going to expect and help everybody have Vaults is a good example. Though Chia Networking and Cloud Vault is the first thing that supports Vaults, we're going to expect and help everybody have Vaults supported by downloadable software, other websites,
lots of things.
You know, one of the things really kind of mulling over is how to basically import your
Vault to a new application.
So like, you know, today you're going to have a Bermuda Vault and you're going to have a
Chia Vault and they're not going to be the same one yet.
Longer term, we would love for you to like come into the ecosystem on
Bermuda and be able to like import your vault over to Chia as well. And, you know, you'd see
different views. Like, you know, the Chia network cloud wallet is always going to be a little bit
more techie, a little bit more blockchain-y just because its audience is that direction where like
the Bermuda app is going to look a lot more like a brokerage firm and you know things like wusdc today in the
chio app is going to be called wusdc and probably in the permuto app is gonna be called cash that's really cool so when you refer to the vault is that basically like people's wallet where
all the funds are kept yeah so vaults are different than wallets um so traditional
wallets in bitcoin or chia and ethereum uh you have a private key and a public key
lots of different ways to kind of do
that. But the public key, the private key was, you know, super admin, God. And if you had control of
the private key, you can sign, you can spend, you can do whatever. Vaults are a little different.
Vaults are a, technically an NFT, we'll use the word singleton here that has a set of logic about who and how they can be
spent. And so you can have multiple private keys for any one vault. And that's kind of what you're
seeing when you see like a recovery key that's different from the hardware key in your phone.
And once you kind of split that up, you now take custody and you have like a bag of assets in your vault that you can manipulate the, the
rules about how it can sign and spend, but only you can. Now you could obviously authorize others
to spend up to and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, one of the things we think it could be
pretty cool is like being able to authorize a debit card issuer to be able to debit up to X,
you know, thousands of dollars worth of stable coin per day and use
that in the debit card network. But, you know, that when you separate those two things, now you
get to put these rules and guidelines and you, you know, it's kind of only limited by your creativity
about how you manage custody and how you can manage recovery and how you manage, you know,
passing things on after death. You know, all these things now become
programmable, programmable, independent of the assets it's holding.
Yeah, that's awesome. So is that like something that like families and teams
and companies can tap into? Yes. And in fact, the general way this is going to work
is that everybody would have their own vault
and you probably end up having two vaults long-term.
You'll have your work vault and your home vault.
And it's kind of identity.
I mean, a vault is kind of a DID actually.
In fact, there's an internal debate
whether we just use vaults instead of the IDs.
But the idea is that like at work,
you've got say like for me, my Chia.net vault
and, you know, the mix of Misha, myself and one other can spend the day-to-day assets that we have.
And so in fact, part of the reason for cloud wallet, and this is why
if you're just an end user, having a web wallet this way, it doesn't make as much sense until
you get to this point where you're doing multi-sig. And so what's neat about this is that like,
let's say somebody in accounting wants us to spend,
you know, 500 Chia over someplace,
they can go into the web wallet, request the spend,
even though they don't have a vault
or they're not part of the multisig.
That will then get pushed to all of us who can sign.
And so we look at it and we go, yep, that makes sense.
I signed it, Misha signed it,
then the backend is keeping track
of whether it's got all the signatures it needs.
Once it does, it submits it to Chain and it just works.
That's really cool.
Yeah, and you want the web SaaS kind of infrastructure there
because you want the security of passkeys getting on the way in,
yet another thing that's hard for the attacker.
And then you want that orchestration. Today today one of our employees is the orchestrator and we spend the private, any of the pre-fund out.
You know, it's very, very nice if the computer was doing that instead because it's, you know, again, something it's better at than humans are.
And you kind of see this when you see multiple recovery keys, right?
And you kind of see this when you see multiple recovery keys, right?
The idea being that like right now as implementing Cloud Wallet,
you only get one recovery key, but soon we'll add,
and this is a user interface question. It's not, I can't do it.
You know, it'd be really nice to have, you know, okay,
here's the recovery key I handed my attorney.
Here's the recovery key I put in my safe deposit box.
And here's the one I put in my will. And then all three are different.
And so if I ever see it show up on chain,
I know who cheated
or where it came from and I can immediately go in during the you know callback window there and
cancel it and remove it and issue a new one all in real time that's huge, I don't know anywhere else where this is being done.
It's not.
But again, this comes out of really kind of staring down the gremlin of,
can we really, with a straight face, look at people and say, you know,
put hundreds of millions to billions in these kinds of tools?
And the answer is now, yes.
Yeah, that is awesome because it definitely aids the ability to utilize this tech on a global level
for the places where I think for global adoption, shall we say, you kind of need the trust and the tooling
and the ability to do the bigger moves
before the much smaller moves can be made.
And I think that's one of the things, I mean,
I didn't really think about until I started learning about Chia really
was, you know, what happens on a larger scale
when it comes to large quantities of funds and companies and
corporate and governments and countries before it even gets to you know the everyday person that
just wants to you know use the phone to pay for a coffee for example so i think it's really cool
that the infrastructure is you know being being put together and and it works yeah and one of
the things we're able to do is we ourselves get to dog food a bit because you know with the put together and it works. Yeah, and one of the things we're able to do
is we ourselves get to dog food a bit
because, you know, with the pre-farm management
and other things, we have scaled needs
to make the blockchain work well
and, you know, feeling the pain of,
like, the first generation of the pre-farm management tool.
We all are pretty darn motivated
to make this that much easier
and it's just the phone and it just works
and we feel just as secure, you know,
it's all those pieces. But I think, you know, you can't get to that big global massive
adoption without being compelling on all levels. Part of that too, like, you know, you'll hear
Trent talk about this at Bermuda. It's not just that we're putting publicly traded equities to
trade on the New York Stock Exchange and on the GEO blockchain on chain. It's sort of putting a root product that you couldn't get anywhere else. And that
the long-term value of is much better on chain. And it's obvious why that really starts to then
take all of the barriers to adoption down. Because like, if you're talking to a major
financial institution, they're already excited about the product. And then they look at it and
go, okay, I get why it's so much cheaper on chain. And so therefore I can pass on more profit to myself. Yeah. I'm going
to use the profit motive and I'm going to do that. Let me get my security officer in
here and we'll talk about how to do HSMs and manage all this.
Yeah, that's really cool. Especially, you know, when, when you can say that it's cheaper,
faster and more secure.
Yeah. I mean, look, you know, obviously we've had ongoing market maker discussions
with Citadel and GTX, and all of them,
we originally talked about ACs and DCs and trading on chain,
just looked at it and went,
oh, I can sell short Microsoft DC on one side
and long it immediately on the chain,
and within five minutes i'm settled instead
of t plus one yeah i like that yeah and when it comes to the um the vaults um on and the self
sovereignty side um are these things tied back to to people or is there a level of privacy involved as well?
Or is it sort of on both sides of that?
How does it look on the security side for the privacy element?
Or is that a tricky one?
So there's two different user cases that really should think about how vaults work.
For people in the G20 nations, you know, using Cloud Wallet, using the Permuto app,
you're going to have some identifying information.
You're going to have an email address, a name, uh, in Permuda,
you're going to have more, you know, street address, those kinds of things.
And that would be tied to you. In other words, like, you know, with court,
with a court order, we could absolutely, we'd be forced to show, uh, the court.
Okay. This is the, you know, metadata we have for this user. And then, you know,
remember a blockchain is a, uh,
immutable audit log of all transactions in and out. And so we think about that use case as being what
most people are going to use because, you know, you're not trusting a lot of different people.
You're always trusting permutal a little bit. You trust TRIA very little because we can't
actually manipulate your funds, but we can, you know, de-anonymize you a bit, right? We wouldn't
do that again without court order though. And this is why we want to have things like mobile manipulate your funds, but we can, you know, de-anonymize you a bit, right? We wouldn't do
that again without court order though. And this is why we want to have things like mobile and desktop
apps as well, because, you know, if you created a vault on, say, Sage, when Sage adds support,
you don't have the same sort of records with that vault. And so you can, you know, have more
anonymity, more safety from a government who isn't rule of law like most of the G20 is.
So, you know, we want to make sure that we support both those use cases very strongly with the same
tools. Yeah, no, that's really cool. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know,
remind people that we, that, you know, right this second, you can't easily recover your cloud wallet if Chia.net, the domain is down.
But there's nothing technologically that stops that because as long as you have a recovery key, you'll be able to submit a transaction on chain and recover it to anywhere else.
And in fact, that's kind of what's going to happen when we talk about portability of vaults is that basically like if you've got a permuto vault and you want to add it to the cloud wallet, you would go
to cloud wallet and the cloud wallet would basically, you tell it what your vault ID
is and it would basically create a transaction that you would then be able to sign over from
permuto effectively adding another say passkey or another instance of ChiaSigner that's associated
with Cloudwallet to that same vault.
So now either ChiaSigner, the one that's associated with permuto.capital or the ones associated
with Chia.net can both spend or receive assets in the same vault.
Yeah, I imagine that could come in really handy on many of occasions.
Absolutely. A question that came in from Discord was, how can I review my Cloud Wallet
mnemonic? And the answer is you can't. We do not want to store your mnemonic. Your mnemonic
is actually generated on your side of the transaction. It's in the web browser, not
on our side. And so what you want to
do is you want to be pretty permissive with your recovery keys because, you know, we recommend 12
hours. You know, no longer do you have the problem of if somebody gets that thing, you're screwed.
Now you have the problem of if somebody gets that thing and decides to do something malicious with
it, you'll have a 12-hour warning that they're being chuckleheads. So it's a kind of different
paradigm and it just means that, you know,
you want to make a couple copies of that.
You often didn't want to make a bunch of copies
of your current mnemonics because it's like,
that was more exposure for people to steal it from you.
But now it's like, I don't mind.
I can put one of my safe deposit box
and hand one to my attorney.
You know, I can have these lightly trusted places
that have my mnemonics and like,
I don't worry about them
because if they were ever dumb enough to put them on chain,
and I have an immutable audit log of the fact they tried to steal my money and I canceled them and created a mnemonics and like, I don't worry about them because if they were ever dumb enough to put them on chain and I have an immutable audit log of the fact they tried
to steal my money and I canceled them and created a new mnemonic.
And it's important to note, if you've got control and access of your primary signer,
you can always change your mnemonic.
So if you're worried, create a new one.
And ultimately you'll be able to have, we'll probably limit it like 10 but there'll be you know
multiple mnemonics you can have per vault so i've kind of had this idea of um
a safety deposit box like a vault where you can put your keys and put them in on a time lock safe and every year you have to like
confirm and sign that you're still alive and if you don't then you can set other keys to then
access that box to then recover its contents absolutely doable with a vault those are the
kinds of things where like you know if you imagine it, most things you can absolutely code up with the vault there. And again, this is why
you like having Cloud Wallet is for that feature to work well, you want a watchtower, which is what
Cloud Wallet does to tell you, hey, it's time to sign. Otherwise, you know, it's going to fall over
and remind you as the date approaches and all those kinds of things. So that's why we think the
easiest user experience is using things like vault.chia.net,
but we want to make sure that you can have a slightly less easy but still completely
functional user experience and don't need to go to vault.chia.net.
Yeah, I mean, anyone can create their own interface to interact with these vaults, right?
It doesn't have to be the official Chia vault website, no?
That's right.
The Chia wallet SDK, which is all open source,
has all of the primitives we use to manage vaults.
So I could...
Sorry, the Chia wallet SDK is now both Sage and Cloud Wallet uses.
So when we add functionality, we generally get it both places.
Sometimes it takes a moment for each place to add the layer up up and that's why like sage doesn't yet have full vault support
so i could basically just do that for myself right i could just create a vault um put put my
keys in it and uh lock that vault and then if anything was ever happened to me or i met my
demise or maybe i uh lost my keys in some way,
there'd be a way for me to even recover that
or for my next of kin.
I mean, you could pass down all sorts of stuff
in such fashion, right?
Yeah, that works though.
I would tell you, I think the better way is like,
especially once you have the ability
to have multiple recovery keys,
you create a recovery key and you put it in your will,
and then you store your will.
You don't just like give it away. But then when you die and people go find your will, the recovery key is in the will.
And you'd have like a 30 day clawback on that, right? Because like if somebody finds the wheel and still tries to steal your money,
you're gonna spend 30 days getting notifications in the cloud vault going, somebody's stealing your money.
getting notifications in the cloud vault going,
somebody's stealing your money.
Now, I'd absolutely love if that notification
was your voice saying that exactly like that as well.
That would be brilliant.
We could do that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna add the one thing to keep in mind
when you're thinking about mobile or desktop
is that you really do kind of need watchtower capabilities because without the watchtower somebody could be stealing from you and you're
not knowing it and that's one thing you do want to know you want something monitoring the chain for
you that is awesome i can i can hear the cogs turning in bacon's brain thinking of all the different
things it's probably going to do with that so that's awesome um i was going to ask some questions
if i may i know it's a bit of a different topic but it's on the chia gaming side yep you know
like what what does the chia gaming look like for the future sure let, let me talk through Chia Gaming kind of like what it is, what it's good at and why.
It is peer to peer state channel gaming. So state channels, the generic term for things like
lightning on, on Bitcoin. And so the idea is that like, if you want to pay, play poker,
good example, you find somebody you want to play with. And that's where a lot of the ecosystem
comes in as, you know, how do you find willing players, that kind of thing. You all agree on how much
you're each going to stake into the game. And so then you create a spend transaction that sends XCH
into a special coin that you then basically shuttle back and forth with each other.
And the way that coin works is that if the other side should try to not follow the rules or like falls off the
internet, you're able to, if you're the other player revert back to the last good state. So
in other words, like the end of the last hand. And so a couple of things are going on here,
the way the games work and that you kind of have everybody policing it for cheating is that it's
real money on the line. You know, you want to make sure that like, you know, if somebody cheats on you at Battleship and there
wasn't money on the line, you know, you don't have the same incentive to like figure out their
cheating. If somebody does cheat on poker or Battleship or whatever, what you do is you
basically now go back to the chain with that coin you got and you prove the cheating and then that
resets the money back to you.
So it really means nobody can cheat. You can only like disappear in the current turn.
And the worst case is that you guys go back to the pre-bet amount for each side. And so what's
neat about this is you can play as many games as you want, as fast as you want directly peer-to-peer.
peer-to-peer. The kinds of games you want to play are low number of turns until you're kind of done
The kinds of games you want to play are low number of turns until you're kind of done with the round.
with the round. And you can see why you just don't want to create a bunch of data between, you know,
begin and end when you're trying to roll it all back. So you don't want to have a huge transaction
you're trying to put on chain. But then once you do that, you can kind of play as long as you want.
If this is somebody you're going to play with again during the week, then, you know, you leave
it there. If not, you know, you guys both go back to blockchain. One of you puts the final transaction through. It settles and, you know, that takes a minute. And now you've got your money back to where it was after you're done playing that night.
But the rules of the game are actually enforced by Chielisp.
So, you know, there's now a set of ways to write those rules
and you don't have to do kind of the work
about how that would actually work and manifest.
But, you know, it's got a little bit of layer of,
okay, you know, a valid play in this turn looks like this.
How nice.
So are people able to kind of like basically build a tournament with this so
was it like what was talking about earlier what uh josh painter was talking about about these
pieces are kind of pre-made so you can kind of piece it together without having to go too deep
into the coding that's right i mean like for a person who wants to add a new game to this
they're just going to look at the game rule stuff they're never going to look at the payment channel and how do you settle and chain and how does that work? They can ignore it utterly.
Yeah, that's really cool, actually. And are there any kind of parameters around what games can be created thus far? Or is that kind of being shaped by how people are using the tech
to create the games?
Well, so it's really the limitations of state channels, right?
I mean, they're very good at peer-to-peer.
Once you go beyond two people, it gets really hard really fast
and also gets really hard really fast on the gaming side
because you don't know that, you know, like if you're playing three people,
you don't know that two people are the same person playing against you.
And it gets really complicated at the state channel level.
And again, that other kind of key guideline is that it needs to be
that each individual game itself doesn't have a lot of turns to it.
You know, you're never going to have like risk in one of these payment channels.
And Battleship is getting pretty far down the line because you have a lot of hit and misses there's a lot of turns to that before the game is done
for that game where with like poker or california poker you know in those cases like there's a
single swap or single sweat or maybe three so you know it's going to be those games that fit there
you know um we're gonna have a version of wordle that works this way for money uh and you know
anything like uh tic-tac-toe you know these kinds of very peer-to-peer
very short sets of turns but you can do them a lot those are the types of games that really work
on your game so chess is out the out of the question then i probably yeah i mean again
it's probably too many turns, right? Yeah.
But y'all tell us.
Yeah, sorry. I was kind of just about to ask that question.
Is that off the table for now?
Can that build towards being changed or like is it what she was just getting at them where it's kind of down to how many turns people want to
pay the price for yeah i mean look you know there's some amount of turns where it starts to
become either too large to easily settle on chain because you need too much block space or um you know you don't have
the same incentives because like if you're playing a long play game and the other person falls off
the internet you're going to revert back to the beginning and it's like you didn't play at all
versus like you're playing poker and you've gotten 20 minutes down you know you've probably done like
10 hands and so you know you've kind of've kind of progressed. So it's just a, it's a, you
know, limitations of the space and user experience. But I will say, you know, don't take our
word for it. And the whole point of kind of gaming and alpha and what we're doing in the
community is, you know, like Battleship is not us. Battleship is one of the community
developers just taking what we're already doing and running with it. And so, you know,
feel free to experiment. I mean, that's what the blockchain is there in many ways for you.
You're not going to, well, you shouldn't be able to break it.
If you do, I want to know about it.
I can imagine the whole community was like challenge accepted.
Oh, absolutely.
What's the prize if you break it?
A blockchain is a walking bounty.
Love that.
Yeah, because I was thinking about the games,
and I was just, in my mind, I was thinking,
this might sound like a really silly thing to say,
I'm not quite sure,
but if there was a way to kind of showcase the, the game's begun, the game play out off chain and then the final result be put on chain.
Yeah, that's in fact the point. So in other words, you know, if you think about it from the blockchain's
view, two people spend in, into a new coin, a bunch of XCH and then disappear and they go play.
And then when they come back, they're going to settle back on chain.
And so you can actually look at where they came off and back
and you can kind of tell, you know, who won most.
And so you can do things,
and this is when the community comes in,
like you can have poker tournaments that are bounded in time
because basically you tell people,
hey, look, you know, we're going to play for an hour.
Whoever gets their, you know, settlement in by an hour and a half,
the person who won the most is now settled
you know winners are all then matched against winners and losers are out
oh nice yeah that makes sense yeah so so there's a lot of things like that where you know when you
put a real kind of community website and tools around it you absolutely can do more things than
just the peer-to-peer component but you do have a real way to programmatically and verifiably go out and prove to people that,
you know, yeah, you know, I really played this game. I really won like this. You'll have to do
some things to make sure that like, if you're doing those kinds of tournaments, that you don't
have somebody who's playing themselves on the other side. But that kind of fixes itself in the
second round because if they were both sides of one, well, they got in and now the second round and so maybe you want a three-round tournament to make
sure that everybody's really uh you know independent human yeah you kind of see that in
the gaming world quite often actually where you know during tournaments one of the um
one of the propositions is you've kind of got a live stream as you play yep and we expect that
to be one of the things that community websites will want to do is to show you know yeah it's, it's me and you know, you're sitting there watching me Twitch style so that I know that you're actually playing me and not me sitting there next to a computer playing a computer bot.
But what's neat about it, right, is that you play as fast as you want. It's web two in the sense once you're started.
Yeah, that's really cool.
And I'm looking forward to as well,
seeing what people do create.
Because if I've learned anything
from the cheer community and the Tang Gang
is that they will find every way possible
to advance this tech
and create new ways to,
to utilize its infrastructure.
So I think that's really cool.
I'm looking forward to seeing how,
how this progresses.
Look,
we're excited.
You know,
one of the big things,
some people like,
you know,
why gaming?
And it's because it's about,
brand would say it's 40% of the lift.
I think it's 60% of the lift to getting to actually like trading payment
channels where you could high speed trade Microsoft ACs and DCs in the same way that, you know,
and those become multi-party. It's partially why they get much harder. But the idea is that,
you know, you've got instant offer liquidity that you can immediately settle with real time. And
once in a while you come out of the channel to the tier one blockchain after you say acquired
the million dollars worth you wanted today yeah that's awesome um someone was uh was asking in the comments section if they will see uh sports
betting come to cheer uh potentially but it's kind of a different set of tools.
You really wouldn't use the gaming protocols
we were talking about it for it.
You know, it's more kind of a generic
prediction market capability
and things we're up to, yeah.
Yeah, and is that down to the people
who are developing as to
what they can use the blockchain for
or is there parameters
in how the blockchain can be used?
No, it's really just anybody who wants to kind of build the GioList underneath, right?
You know, in the same way that like American options are just actually like an offer file
and a GioList coin.
There's no reason that a prediction market can't go that way.
Now you get in some interesting things and, you know, callbacks and some of the things
we can do become really interesting because there's kind of like two different types of
predictions. One is pretty easy to not dispute. It's like who won the
game, right? But you have these predictions that are potentially hard to dispute. It's like,
do the Republicans control the house after the midterms? Well, what happens if they don't because
there's a unaffiliated who generally
votes with Republicans? So did they control the house or not? And we have some interesting ideas,
uh, Bram does to be able to like use arbitrators there to, so that the losers could be able to
stake up some money. The arbitrator gets paid and the arbitrator makes a call. And then,
you know, if the losers lose again, they may lose part
of that stake they staked up.
But you know, you now got a real way to address, you know, these harder calls and certain things.
You know, when you've got like a stock price oracle, for example, like did Microsoft close
above 500 on, you know, January 29th, 2026 at 4 PM Eastern?
That's a pretty easy one to figure out.
But you know, it's these blurrier ones that there's some more interesting ways to handle. sorry i was eating food no worries
yeah i mean chia has just built different um it's it's not like any of the other blockchains out there and
i don't think a lot of people realize what what cheer are doing and how they're doing it um
also the way it works was what piqued my interests initially because at that time bitcoin was like
burning up the atmosphere and you know really bad for the environment and ethereum was doing the
same and all the other tokens were doing the same and all the other
tokens were doing the same and then chia comes along goes no no no we don't just do all that
we just need to just you know prove prove it's real that's like okay cool um so yeah i was uh
i was totally down with that um it seemed like the the smart evolution of uh of using that kind
of consensus model that Bitcoin has.
Yeah, I mean, look, it was solved two problems, right?
It was problem number one is that proof of work is a ingenious
and maybe accidentally evil new development.
I mean, all credit to Satoshi team.
But it's going to scale in a bad way.
I often tell people it's not really what Bitcoin uses today.
It's what happens if you 100 exit.
The whole point of all this is to 100 exit.
So, you know, solving a better way to do Nakamoto consensus is really important.
And the second one was to really solve for all sorts of deficiencies that the design decisions that Ethereum create.
And the two that are easiest to explain to people are both MEV and proof of stake.
You know, with MEV, you really can't trade securities
in a non-walled garden manner on Ethereum.
And that's because, you know, the MEV hunter bots around the world
are going to do securities fraud on them by sandwich attacking them, front running them, back running them. You know, this is stuff that the like 33, 34 and 40
accurate past to stop from happening as they used to happen on wall street. Uh, and then proof of
stake is a pretty dangerous thing. And the reason is that I think people underestimate how much
money is available to stake. I was having a conversation with a really well-known hedge fund
and I was like, look guys, I bet you, you guys could borrow a trillion dollars overnight.
And as long as the trade was worth it against the single 24 hours worth of interest, you could
basically create a stake point where you could run a long range attack back to when you had stake
and end up with that stake as a longer chain
that you introduce a few days later. And they're like, I don't think we'd borrow a trillion.
Wait, wait, we could call Mike. Yeah. Okay. You're right. We can borrow a trillion.
You know, when you have a financialized blockchain, you don't really want to have financial incentives
that centralization, which proof of stake just does.
And, you know, for financial institutions, they already do have a bunch of hard drives
around.
And so like the idea of running it on hard drives, in fact, someday I hope to be able
to talk about the various places that I know Chia farming took place with corporate approval, I might add, in banks and financial institutions.
So you're telling me that banks and places like that were mining Chia with their hard drive space?
Yeah, I wouldn't say that any of them were like large farmers, but a lot of people were,
okay, you know, let's get a minimum viable farm and be, you know, there and be able to actually run this, you know, soup to nuts.
Because they were seriously looking at, you know, issuing real business problems on chain.
Darn you FTX.
Yeah, right.
I think FTX was definitely a big, it made a lot of people stand back.
Lots of big brands starting to really sniff around this technology.
And then all of a sudden they're like, no, we don't want to mess with this thing.
Yeah, but until those other issues are taken seriously, it's going to be a problem.
One of the reasons why Nakamoto coefficient really matters, it's obvious to everybody,
but if you Nakamoto coefficient's really high, it's really hard to start a MEV network. There's a little bit of MEV
you can do in Shia. Basically, if you're lucky enough to be the farmer farming the block, you
could potentially take a otherwise good deal. So, you know, the maker would get what they expected,
but the taker might not get a transaction to otherwise get. Now, by the way, that's only for
an offer file that's in public. You know, if you do a private offer file via email to somebody, it can't be mev because
they don't have enough data to be able to pull those signatures apart and, you know, put their
own in. But if you've got a high Nakamoto coefficient, it's really hard to get a critical
mass of farmers to like outsource mempool because like, you know, only a few farmers are that big.
source mempool because like, you know, only a few farmers are that big.
And so getting to 20% of farmers is actually a really hard problem.
So, uh, you know, it really does kind of change the security environment and
makes it so that like MEV is just not really likely to occur on the GEO blockchain.
Certainly not in the highly organized and totally illegal way that it happens on
Ethereum.
You say the illegal way that it happens on Ethereum. You say the illegal way that it works on Ethereum.
Yeah. So on a commodity, it's okay to front run and back run on those kinds of things. Commodities are very different. Insider trading on commodities is very different.
On security, it's illegal. And there are definitely items that trade on the Ethereum blockchain as ERC-20 or ERC-whatever the other standards are that are securities.
Oh, yeah, 100%. 100% that exists.
Yep.
Now, these aren't like equity securities from issuers yet because there, the extent there are those things on Ethereum,
they're in walled gardens that require pre-approval.
And that walled garden and pre-approval generally means
that you can't med that transaction.
But the cost of that is liquidity.
You know, if you don't have an open liquid market,
you know, you're just gonna have like a play thing
on the blockchain.
You actually want to have real global liquidity on chain and off chain.
You actually wanna have real global liquidity
on chain and off chain.
Yeah. I mean, you just, you just have an empty order book basically.
Right. You, you, you know,
it's really only OTC because you'd be basically like having to get somebody
like, you don't want to buy this from me. Okay.
You got to go register your wallet and then after you're done,
call me and then I'll send to you versus on Chia,
you're going to be able to post an offer file for a Microsoft DC and just go.
I mean, important to really underline this liquidity point. A couple other folks are
starting to talk about it more on X, but for tokenized real world assets to matter,
you need real liquidity. One of the reasons we love what we're doing at Permuto is that we inherit the liquidity
we're likely to have on the New York Stock Exchange.
And so there's kind of a pool of liquidity that if you trade outside the range, and it's
going to trade a little wider at first on chain, certainly.
But for somebody who's got a securities license, it's trailing for them to make that market
on both sides and they take the spread.
And so you're going to have real liquidity in depth. And there's some other things that Trent has up his sleeve
that are going to add kind of more automated and mechanized liquidity as well. So that in some ways
the blockchain is the liquidity guarantee and not the vice versa longer term. There's, there's really
a lot we can do there to create liquidity and deep liquid markets. And when you create those deep
liquid markets, then you start getting the things that are like well you know i keep my cash in a group of dcs
even that earns even above and beyond what i would have earned if i was in a treasury
money market fund so that's great and when i need it i can sell it right now to get cash
what what i love about it is the instant
settlement because
at the moment with actual stocks,
if you wanted to crystallize that, it takes days.
It's not
just a click done. Unless
you're using a
third party provider that
works as an intermediary, can do it on a promise or whatever.
Yeah, so look, there's two different versions of
that answer. The retail answer is that it looks like
on Robinhood or E-Trade that you're done, right?
That you went in, hit press buy,
you did a limit order,
you did a market order,
and it's done, it's over, you're done.
It's not really,
it's not settled actually until the next day.
And so on the back end,
like remember when GameStop had to stop,
like Robinhood couldn't
like let people buy anymore.
It was because of the overnight risk of that cash and they had to front all the cash of
all the transactions to make sure there'd be delivery.
On chain, you unlock all that liquidity.
So there's no need to post cash for trades that are about to settle because they settle
in five minutes.
And you know, so it is very different.
And now when you're more like a market maker or an actual financial institution,
you know, you know that you're at risk for that 24 hours.
And if you've got a especially volatile situation or other things,
you're going to look at the chain as being much more certain,
much more short term, you know, it's done and done and dusted instead of.
And then we lock up cash and wait 24 hours.
Now that's down recently. Like it
used to be 48 hours as, as much as about a year ago, maybe a year and a half now. So, you know,
it's just a good sign for what it really looks like out there and versus like what's possible
day-to-day on the chain. yeah appreciate that gene that was a great answer um i do have a couple more questions actually
um that aren't exactly in response to the topic you were just talking about but they are good questions nonetheless
i want to say thank you to uh collector who said he had to run um but he's loving the interview and thanks for putting it on you're welcome and i thank you for eugene as well for participating
cheer rocks thought that was a cool message so thank you to uh collector but one of the questions
was just touching back on something you was talking about earlier. This says, if the Clarity Act does not get signed into low by the end of Q1,
what does that mean for Chia runway?
It doesn't really change Chia at all.
You know, the things that we are reliant on that we're not in direct control are SEC timing,
and the SEC is moving forward to get this done.
So, you know, from that perspective, it doesn't really change anything.
This is one place where, like, you know, from that perspective, it doesn't really change anything. This is one place where like,
you know, if you got Brian at Coinbase out there
saying the status quo is good enough for better.
I don't know if it's better, but it's good enough.
You know, we don't need anything from Clarity
to be able to get what we want done.
Now, there's some things we'd like to continue to clarify,
but we may do that at the regulatory level,
state level, but they aren't showstoppers or blockers
for going out and actually starting trading on blockchain awesome thank you gene um there is a couple more
questions here if you don't mind absolutely um yeah one says um will cni be working on auto
balancer for portfolio management since it involves financial licensing and then
there's a further up question that says will cni develop templates for family offices to use for
establishing trust for estate planning making it easier for family offices to adopt you so on the
first part you know we're going to offer you a set of tools and probably even things like an llm to
help you make those decisions but they're your custody and you're making your own decisions
so we're not real worried about giving you those tools to make it easy to do.
You know, they're going to be rudimentary at first, just because we got to get things out
and working, you know, it'd be like, Hey, tell us what percentage of DCs do you want to,
you know, reinvest in, for example. Now note that that's, you know, like reinvestment is
something that's really good on chain and really bad in the real world. You know, you can't really
easily, some brokerages allow you to do it, but can't really buy like a 10th of a share where it's
really easy to buy a 10th of a share on chain. So, you know, it's got some natural things. And I will
say, you know, in the longer term roadmap, we do want you to kind of have a private banker in your
pocket that you can consult with your vault and it'll do and automate some of this stuff. It's
like, you know, when you've got a whole bunch of, say, you know,
too much of one equity and you've done really well,
but it's time to start trimming, you know, you can have it set.
That's the first thing you want to sell if you need more cash today to buy coffee.
On the other one, we will absolutely be doing kind of like,
how to put it, sales tools that show people what, you know, what the
good paths, you know, if you're a family office of this size with this many people, here's
what we recommend. But then we also kind of show it like, and then here's what enterprises
do and here's what individuals do and kind of just educate with a bunch of different
exemplars so that people could kind of go, oh, okay, yeah, it makes sense. And I want
to do it this way and I understand what the trade-offs are and great.
And thank you.
You've got some de facto forms that we can start with.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, that's exciting for people that want to use the tech for that reason,
kind of putting it back into the hands of the user, really.
Yeah. I mean, you know, because it's so novel, we do have to do some work to make sure people kind of see what the options are.
But the good news is the options are actually really nice.
Like, and there's a lot of times where it's like, you know, that process you haven't implemented yet because it's a pain in the ass.
Well, if you do with us, it's not a pain in the ass anymore.
anymore. Yeah. And I also like the fact that it's the case of, um, you know, these are, these are
the options that we give you, but you can do things on your end to further support options
you would like to have. That's right. And look, you know, especially with businesses, the answer
is you see something you don't see and you want it. I'm sure we can quote you a price to build it.
want it i'm sure we can quote you a price to build it best answer ever love that yep and there was
one more question which made me giggle a bit um and it just is it just says um got full so it got
space for a full node and plenty of plots on the new phone when android plotter which i'm sure you
probably heard yeah it turns out it'll compile on android today uh you know as i said there was
people who,
I think they were running Linux on it,
not Android, Android Linux,
but I mean, it's easily targetable today
if you want to pull that off.
But, you know, what we're heading toward
is probably native apps on both, you know,
style of phone that can plot
and then, you know, sign you up to pools
that are going to do the push notification of,
you know of challenges.
And that is a kind of community opportunity.
We would not want to be that pool.
There we go.
Now we've got a use case and all that storage that you've got.
Let's go yeah but no i appreciate all the uh all the questions by
the community and um i appreciate eugene for answering all those questions as amazingly as
you do but it is really exciting to see that you know there's there's a lot of progress taking place and the tech is, it sounds like the tech's very supportive of the developers creating the tools.
Because that was another thing that I've kind of seen a lot from the community, that people are able to create tools that they need as they need them.
And a really cool response from someone, and I think it was in Art We Hearts and D and jacques space where someone asked if a certain
tool existed and they said that there hasn't been a use case for it yet or a need for it and i just
thought that was really cool because they could have just said no but they've basically you know
knowing that most things are possible through through what's what's able to be created on
on the blockchain that they just said that you know there hasn't been a need for that yet,
so no one's basically had to create.
I thought that was really cool.
Yeah.
But no, it has been a really awesome space, Gene,
so thank you very much for joining us tonight and answering all these questions and filling us in
on what's coming and what's happening
and what we can look forward to as well. We appreciate it.
Thank you. Always a pleasure to come and, you know,
enjoy talking to y'all in the community. It's a, it's a lot of fun.
Yeah, no, thank you, Gene. Yeah. It's always great.
And it's always educational and there's always mind blowing information coming
through as well. And it's great to see so many people, you know,
able to enjoy the tech and build and be able to ask the questions as well and it's great to see so many people you know able to enjoy the tech and build and
be able to ask the questions as well for for that are able to be answered by you in a really good
way so that's awesome as well so thank you to everyone that asked the questions and uh and
thank you for answering them as well so you know we've had an hour and 47 minutes of your time
which we very much appreciate so we'll uh we'll quickly uh get some closing remarks from everyone
and we'll call it a night but was anything if there's anything that you want to add gino anything
you want to say before we we call it a night you are more than welcome you know i'd only say that
like you know if you've not tried it yet go to vault.giana.net create yourself a vault start
getting involved it's uh using this feeling an offer file feeling the recovery of the vault
really just changes to make this very like oh yeah, yeah, this is actually easy to use.
And yes, I can see my brother, sister, mother, father using this to actually do things.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Brilliant.
Well, thank you, Gene.
I appreciate that.
But, you know, we definitely look forward to the next time time there's always a lot happening and a lot of moving parts so we look forward to uh you know what what comes when we next speak with you and uh
you know as always we appreciate the uh the the insight and the education the information and uh
you know people being able to learn as well me included of course from the the questions that
get asked and the way that you answer them as well.
So that's really, really helpful as well.
So I appreciate that.
And we'll be doing another Cheer for Dummies space soon as well,
thanks to Tim, Monkey Zoo, and with Josh Painter as well.
They do a brilliant job at, you know, making it easier to understand
and, you know, being there for people to ask questions to.
And there's been some really great conversations around how the tech can be used as well.
So, you know, a massive shout out to the Chia community and the Tangang community
for all the spaces that they host for people to connect with and learn from
and collaborate with as well.
That's been awesome as well.
But Miss Evie, do you have any closing remarks you would like to add of course i
do i just want to thank everybody for showing up you know we've been doing this for a handful of
years now and just y'all could be anywhere in the world and you're right here with us so thanks for
being here thanks for supporting and thanks gene for always coming in and having a good chat my
pleasure yeah well said thank you we've completely agree with that the bacon sandwich
do you have any closing remarks uh uh just uh what i normally say at the end of these uh cheer
spaces i always feel like i am smarter after leaving this space, hanging around with people like Josh and Tim and Gene and Bram
and people like that.
Yeah, I just feel smarter at the end of these spaces.
I really enjoy these.
We should, yeah, keep doing these.
Really enjoy it.
And, you know, like what Evie said, you know,
you guys could choose to be anywhere, but, you know,
you choose to come and chill with us and listen to Gene talk about cheer and all the cool stuff i've got going on there so uh yeah keep it up keep
smashing it guys let's go thank you bacon and uh yeah definitely agree with that and uh you know
for anyone that is listening and you know we love to do these spaces for educational material for
people to be able to learn and be inspired and want to dig deeper and
ask more questions but definitely check out cheer.net and permuto.capital as well and go and
check out gene's page and see what he's doing and if you like what cheer are doing you know don't be
shy to go and show some support go and follow the main pages go and follow gene check out the post
that they're making and all the information that they're providing as well to um to keep learning about it and keep uh you know keep learning on your blockchain journey as
well and we will be doing another one of these in the not so distant future so if anyone does
have any questions and you're not able to ask them anytime before uh make a note of them and
then you can uh you can either come up on the stage in our space or you can drop a comment in
the comment section and you can ask those
questions and we can we can ask the amazing gene for you but that being said
it's been an amazing space so thank you very much we will be back same time
tomorrow as we usually are every Friday and Saturday we are featuring tree gens
with Guinness World Record holder for another space to learn about what they're doing and all the amazing things that
they've done as well and how they're utilizing this amazing technology to make an impact in
the world so they've got some amazing ambitions and goals that they've got set before them which
we're looking forward to seeing how they're getting on and when all that stuff's coming
to pass as well so thank you very much for everyone for listening if you want to support
what we're doing as well we do have things across all the socials and on pass as well so thank you very much for everyone for listening if you want to support what we're doing as well we do have um things across all the socials and on youtube as well but you
can check out our website which is just community communities dot xyz so thank you for listening and
we will catch you legends same time tomorrow thank you gene and thank you everyone for listening
thank you Thank you.
Insights
Project L
The announcement of a new book that includes a story about Chia signifies the project's growing influence and relevance in the blockchain narrative.
We're going to be sending copies out to people, like, really soon.
People that are pre-ordered.
So I'm looking forward to that land on people's doorsteps.
The anticipated release of Chia 3.0 software, which includes proof of space 2.0, represents a significant project launch that could redefine user experience on the platform.
So I mean is there a timeline on that release because I know you said you've
made a significant progress? Yeah I believe if the actual 3.0 software
release is going to be in this quarter,
Token L
The introduction of CircuitDAO, a new over-collateralized stablecoin on Chia, marks a significant development in the ecosystem, enhancing its financial tools.
So all those things are happening.
At the same time, an important thing in the ecosystem happened last couple days, which is CircuitDAO, which is a DAI equivalent over collateralized stablecoin launched on Gia.
And it's being quickly added into the various parts of the ecosystems, wallets and that sort of thing.
P
Gene Hoffman, CEO of Chia Network, is featured in this discussion, highlighting the importance of community support and collaboration in the Web3 space.
we will be starting the space very shortly we're just going to get the team on the stage the guests
on the stage we're super excited about tonight as always we are featuring the amazing gene hoffman the ceo of the chia network i appreciate the community
that are already here that are already showing support checking the space sharing it out tagging
Gene discusses the evolving work culture at Chia Network, emphasizing the importance of work-life balance, which reflects a broader trend in the crypto industry towards sustainable work practices.
but you'll always catch me doing something.
Yeah, unfortunately.
No, I love that.
The closing of the RFP window for gaming partners indicates a growing interest in developing a peer-to-peer gaming ecosystem on Chia, showcasing the platform's expansion.
gaming partners. And I think Bram's done a good job between a blog post and some marketing material
that's gone out on X and LinkedIn recently explaining that it's an ecosystem of peer-to-peer
gaming that we really want to have. It's hard to get all the infrastructure together to be able to
Gene mentions the ongoing discussions with the SEC regarding the rollout of new financial products, which could lead to significant fundraising opportunities for Chia.
I'm trying to take off.
But speaking of community, the one thing I left out is that we're really close to being done on new proof of space.
And, you know, that's going to be, I think, a very fun new project, even though, yes, it's replotting.
The upcoming proof of space 2.0 and its implications for farming on mobile devices suggest new yield opportunities for users, enhancing the platform's appeal.
But speaking of community, the one thing I left out is that we're really close to being done on new proof of space.
And, you know, that's going to be, I think, a very fun new project, even though, yes, it's replotting.
It's replotting back to a level of tech that we didn't think was, well, it is impressive that we hadn't had to take any of the trade-offs badly and get rid of, you know, any incremental compression. So getting back to, you know,
The discussion about the potential for a hard fork and its implications for existing plots indicates a strategic move that could attract investment and user engagement.
Well, you'll win at the same rate always with a proof of space 2.0 plot. So that gives you real
time during that initial window to slowly but surely replot. You know, it's literally delete
a old plot 1.0 and fill it with, you know, the new plot size plots and just rinse,
Gene's insights into the community's engagement and the excitement around Chia's technology reflect a positive growth trajectory for the project.
and farm them so it's not that you can't do it.
But, you know, with a slightly different protocol, imagine a pool you somewhat trust.
You could basically have an app and a push notification that only when a challenge comes that, you know,
Gene's comments on the Clarity Act and its implications for Chia highlight the ongoing regulatory trends affecting the crypto landscape.
what does that mean for Chia runway?
It doesn't really change Chia at all.
You know, the things that we are reliant on that we're not in direct control are SEC timing,
