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Web3 Exposed 🧽🎙️
Recorded: May 24, 2023 Duration: 2:19:54Space Recording
Full Transcription
Can you guys hear it?
Throw them thumbs up or down.
Can you hear it?
But then I thought back, back to a better me.
Before I was a B-list celebrity.
Before I started calling, calling 50 so heavily.
That when you could get a platinum plat without no melody.
You weren't sweating me.
One time for my LA sisters.
Let's fucking go.
We about to get started, baby.
Like, comment, retweet, tag a friend.
Tag your baby daddy, because that motherfucker need this information.
Tag your baby mama.
Tag your cousin.
Tag everybody.
They need this information.
They 100% need this information.
Let's get it.
What's up in my LA, LA?
Lame you can't tell the difference.
What's up for a mama who knows?
Don't save her.
She don't want to be safe.
Don't save her.
She don't want to be safe.
Don't save her.
She don't want to be safe.
Don't save her.
She don't want to be safe.
I want a real love.
Dark skin and ant-fib love.
They did it in their real love.
They leave a toothbrush at your crib, love.
And you ain't got to wonder whether that's your kid, love.
I don't want no b**** from reality shows.
Out of touch with reality.
Out in Hollywood.
Bring her back five or six, six.
Then we kick her to the door.
You know how it go.
She deserve that.
She a bird.
It's a bird trap.
You think about it?
Her rap.
She would flirt back.
Taking off her skirt.
Let her wear my shirt.
When she leave, I'ma need my shirt back.
I'ma need my shirt back.
Wake the f*** up.
We about to get started.
Don't compare me to these influencers like I ain't been in the streets.
This is the day.
Shit, I did this shit for years.
Niggas don't compare to me.
Niggas act like they my peers.
I think niggas scared of me.
I done seen real niggas perish.
Niggas need to cherish me.
Niggas need to cherish me.
Niggas need to cherish me.
You influencers need to cherish me.
Welcome to Web3 Exposed.
It's your motherf***ing host with the most profits, a.k.a.
I don't know what else to say.
Anyway, let's f***ing go.
Time to get started.
Super, super excited to get going today.
Not only did I have Vietnamese coffee, which means it was a lot stronger than normal, but
we got a lot of alpha.
We got a lot of info.
I got to do a little bit of exposing today.
I got to bring out my cop badge and my gun, and yep, I got to do it today.
It is what it is.
It's going to be spicy.
It's also going to be very educational.
I'm excited to announce something I'm rolling out today for the audience, so you guys want
to stay tuned for that.
This show is officially sponsored by Buccaneer of the Blockchain.
Buccaneers of the Blockchain, they're actually a very cool organization.
I got the blessings of talking with the CEO, so later today you guys will hear from them.
We're also going to continue the BRC ordinal conversation, and the best is we're going
to talk about shitcoins and all the influencers launching them, and should we all be launching
coins?
You feel me?
Let's get right into the disclaimer.
I think it's also very important that you guys do your own research.
Luna, don't start with me.
I got to say a disclaimer, so just relax.
Just hold on.
Just hold on.
I'm going to give you a fucking treat.
This space and all its contents are for informational purposes only.
Nothing that is published by a host or a speaker, whether written or spoken, should be taken
to come to an offer to sell or trade, a solicitation to buy, or a recommendation for any security,
cryptocurrency, or digital asset.
Nor does it come to an offer to provide investment advice or any related services by Web3 exposed.
The host, as well as any speakers, may at the time of publishing have investments in
the securities, cryptocurrency, or digital assets that are discussed.
However, no individual financial or investment needs have been considered prior.
Any views expressed are likely a result of information available at the time of publishing.
Further information can cause views or opinions published to change.
Guys, we talk about a lot of shit up here.
And I'm never, ever going to get the fucking...
When I finally pass relevancy in this fucking Twitter world of, like, you know, real following,
I don't want to hear shit about shit, okay?
Ain't shit changing.
I'm not stopping.
I'm being the same.
If anything, the only shit changing is the change in my pocket.
You feel me?
Yep, that's what it is.
We're going to get straight into it.
Where the fuck is Bullish Trader?
This motherfucker be pissing me off because he knows I want to talk about the market with
him.
Nobody is as educational about the markets, at least that I've seen on these spaces as
him, aside from myself.
Double Ape doesn't really know much, but I guess we'll pass it to him in here in just
a second.
Fuck, I got to pass it to Double Ape.
Now, I want to talk about the market real quick.
Real quick.
This is my quick hunch.
I'm going to call it right now.
I'm going to call it right now.
This is not a signal.
This is me throwing it out there and based off some current events and also based off
of some market, like, you know, you guys, you know, market charts and analysis and all
the beautiful squiggly lines.
No, but I definitely can see Bitcoin hitting, you know, $30,000 to $35,000 in the next 60 days.
Um, maybe longer, maybe, maybe 90.
And the reason being is because we've, we've kind of been hanging out at this, you know,
I'm gonna call it a bottom for quite some time.
There's a lot of like the world is as far as numbers, macro, real estate, right?
All this stuff is down.
Like, I think, uh, I don't know.
There was, there was, there was just a report recently of, like I said, America being what?
$17 trillion in debt officially.
So it's like, we've granted, we're getting like the most bearish, bearish news.
And we're still like Bitcoin, when I say we, I'm saying Bitcoin, Bitcoin is still kind
of stable, right?
Like it's hasn't really fell below 20,000 since the beginning of the year.
Um, so that's bullish to me.
And, and the more, you know, that we kind of, the more that we don't get super, super
bad news, the more I'm bullish.
And then as soon as we get some more bullish news, which we kind of have been, looks like
China is officially like stamping a metaverse.
That's pretty bullish for crypto, I think.
Um, so like more stuff like that happens, um, definitely more opportunity for, um, obviously
like, you know, more of a bullish sentiment and we could finally fucking pass $2,000 in
ETH and stay there.
Um, but yeah, we're going to get straight into the topics here in just a second.
Also guys, if you haven't already turned on post notifications, Twitter be hating on
me and I can't post, I know Luna Twitter's a hater.
Um, and then I can't post, um, like the link in this fucking, the spaces link in the main
tweet and then you guys don't see the link and all this bullshit.
So just turn on noties.
Um, don't worry.
Don't worry.
It's worth it to turn on notifications.
I promise you.
You're even going to catch me ranting on this fucking crypto Twitter incels three o'clock
in the morning and you're like, what the fuck?
And you're just going to have a, you know, laugh your ass off.
I promise you.
Um, but let's pass it at double A.
What do you want?
Yeah.
I just wanted to make it clear that as a speaker on this panel, like that amazing, um, declaration
that you made earlier applies to me as well in my views.
Um, so yeah, that disclaimer applies as well.
So just keep that in, uh, in mind as we continue to have this discussion.
Oh, don't worry.
I got you covered my G.
That's why I say the hosts and the speakers, you already know the vibes.
Um, before I kind of get going with the topic of, of combo, I mean, I mean, we can just kind
of get straight into it.
Um, anything on the Azuki side, Von, that you want to talk about cover?
Are you excited for Vegas?
I know I'm excited for Vegas.
Hey, yo, man, I cannot fucking wait for Vegas.
That shit is going to be so fucking lit.
And I already see a couple of the Azuki folks in the crowd and shit.
Shout out to y'all.
Canic, them, Raph, oh, secretly trading, planning.
I see y'all, baby.
I see y'all.
Thank you for pulling up, y'all.
Nah, I'm just, I'm just excited to just, you know, meet all, like, it just, it's a,
it's a big demographic of Azuki that I've never met before, feel me, that actually
you're going to pull up to the States and everything.
So it's going to be a, a ridiculous experience.
Super different.
Super different.
And yo, the brunch, don't forget about the brunch, man.
The day after the party, 11 to, what was it?
11 to two, I think.
11 to two, I believe.
Shit is going to be ridiculous, bro.
Stay in tune.
Yeah, these Azuki MFers are really, are really showing up on the timeline as well.
I see them all the time.
I haven't seen them before and they're bringing some really good takes.
So yeah, shout out to Azuki.
That party's going to be pretty crazy from what I understand.
Are you coming, Double A?
I can't, I wish I could make it because I love Vegas from there.
I'm not that I'm not from there, but I live there for a good amount of time.
So wish I could go.
I think it's going to be amazing.
I just hope they kind of do something that can boost up the market or the floor price.
But yeah, I would, I would, I would love to go.
I'm going to, I'm going to have FOMO watching you guys having a great time.
Yo, 100%.
I think the FOMO is going to be real.
And what makes me excited about this Azuki event is like a Web3 born community actually
taking this matter of IRL events to its own hands, kind of decoupling of the NFT conferences.
I know somebody's going to say, oh, there is VCon and all that shit.
But yo, like Gary V was already famous before Web3 and now seeing like a project from Web3 doing it
and potentially like these growing to an annual thing and multiple projects coming together
to do their own shit, decoupled from these NFT conferences that unless they bring people
from the space to talk most of the time, it sucks because they don't.
I hope these guys actually bring people that matter to become the panel, you know,
like people that be out here on Twitter spaces, big hosts, good hosts from Twitter spaces
rather than some people from NFT Now Top 100 that we've never seen in our lives.
Yo, why are you hating on the NFT Now Top 100?
Yo, I don't really got nothing against them, but it's just that I've never seen most of these
motherfuckers, like people that I see providing value in this space weren't them.
Maybe that's just me.
Maybe I'm just not tapped in.
This is amazing.
Go ahead, Vaughn.
We got Arcanic and we got my boy Dem on stage, man.
What's up, dudes?
How y'all feeling?
Happy birthday, Vaughn!
Happy birthday, motherfucker!
No, I'm a little bit late, but I just wanted to say it live.
Everybody say happy birthday to Vaughn.
Profits over wages.
Yo, happy birthday, Vaughn.
Legendary Spaces host, Profits Over Wages.
I love you so much.
And I love to be up here in the space.
I just want to say that, yeah, you can knock on the NFT Now Top 100,
but this year they actually awarded the Azuki team one of the NFT Top 100,
and we gave it over to the community.
So the Azuki community is one of the NFT Top 100.
So you just messed with the whole Azuki community
by giving some shade to the NFT Top 100.
But I know what you mean.
Like, it's got to be an event for the people.
I don't want to monologue, but thanks for having me up,
and happy birthday, Vaughn.
No, you're all good.
Azuki's are here, and they are safe here.
So as long as you guys got good take.
Remember, this is home of the good takes.
You're here to hear first.
You hear that on somebody else's faces.
Just know they're here on an alt listening to all the cool shit that I say.
Double A, go ahead.
Profits, are the Beans invited to this party in Vegas,
or do they have to sit outside and wait?
Whoa.
Don't violate the Beans.
Never.
Beans, bro, Beans is, Beans get treated amazingly, bro, in the garden.
Beans get treated amazing.
Like, it's none of that discrimination of, like,
oh, you got a cheaper NFT in the ecosystem.
None of that bullshit in the garden.
All right, that's good to hear.
I'm glad to hear that.
Yo, tag zero at the bottom.
I need another co-host.
Arconic, what's the vibes?
Yo, what up, profits?
I've actually been in your spaces so many times,
and I've, like, never followed you before,
so I apologize.
I had to fix that with a quickness.
You're an amazing spaces host.
And Vaughn, you too, bro.
Fucking killing it as usual.
Happy birthday, you fucking legend.
Yo, dude, I mean, we're on the topic of Vegas.
I just want to say that, yo, this Vegas party
isn't just for, you know, Azukis and Beans holders only.
Everyone is invited to come,
and correct me if I'm wrong,
you have to pay only a $100 deposit
if you don't hold a Beans or Azuki,
which you will be refunded later on.
So pretty much, I think entry is essentially free
for anybody who wants to show up.
And that's, you know, not to say
that there won't be other events, too.
I believe that a lot of people
from the Pudgy community are also coming.
People of different communities
are going to be there, too.
So it's not just, oh, Vegas is, like,
only Azuki's thing, and that's it,
and I'm not going to go because I feel left out.
Bro, no.
Like, this is, the entire reason for Azuki
to kind of do this thing in Vegas
was to break away from NFT NYC convention as a whole
and the monopoly they have on events in this space,
you know, because they literally fucking siphon money
from people and scam them.
They charge, like, thousands of dollars for tickets,
and nobody shows up.
So this goes to say that, bro, pull up, dude.
There's going to be so many people there
from all sorts of communities.
The Azuki community is open to fucking everybody, dude.
Much love.
That's a big fact right there.
What's up, Zianna?
Good morning.
How are you feeling?
GM, GM, I'm good.
I almost sneezed in the middle of me unmuting.
Yeah, I'm fucking stoked.
I haven't been on stage here
because it's been a fucking minute.
But, yes, I'm hella excited for Vegas.
I'm not allowed to shill shit here,
but I am excited, though.
I'm very excited.
Oh, still less shit.
Yes, you are.
What are you talking about?
Zianna's having an event.
Well, hold up, hold up, hold up.
Real quick.
Real quick.
Yeah, so Vaughn is having an event.
I, myself, am also having an event.
They are community-led.
They're more so for the purpose
of just getting to know people
at a more intimate level
because as excited as I am
for the fucking Azuki event,
there's like thousands of people
that are going to be in one massive-ass building.
So I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be able
to say hi to everyone.
And people are going to be having a great-ass time.
So I have an event.
Vaughn has an event.
Someone else on this stage might have an event.
I'm not allowed to say,
I don't know, just yet something-something.
But yes, I am very, very excited
to just see so many of you guys
meet more Azuki holders.
It's going to be an incredible fucking time,
and I'm here for it.
So let's go.
While we're getting all the BTC Ordinal guys in here,
I'm waiting for Travis to also get in here
so he can fucking yell at them
because apparently, according to the bullish trader,
inscriptions is nothing new.
We don't know what we're talking about,
and he knows everything.
So that's going to be fun.
OG, go ahead.
Yo, what the fuck is popping?
I don't think I've ever been up on this stage.
You know, I had to come and say,
what the fuck is good?
Look, look, look, look.
Yo, bud, happy birthday, man.
I didn't know it was your birthday recently,
but hey, happy motherfucking birthday.
Look, I got to come up here,
put on for the homies.
Y'all throwing your events.
It's going to be lit.
I'm going to pop out.
Somebody gave me, you know, the bean ticket.
So shouts out YR Nick, the homie.
But look, look, look, look, look.
I got to put on for the homies.
I got to put on for the homies.
Bing bong events.
Going to be fucking vibes.
Yo, shout out Shiv.
Shout out Gigi.
If you're not going, where the fuck you at?
Let me tell you, it's going to be lit.
It's going to be lit.
Also, like, who let, like,
Prophets, you let Double Ape up on the co-host.
Like, co-bozo up here.
Like, fuck.
There's no way.
You know, but that's exactly why.
I noticed he's like the underdog in Home Web 3.
I knew that was going to happen.
I was waiting.
Yeah, man, I'm excited as fuck.
All right, let's just jump into the next topic.
And current state of NFTs is pretty obvious, I think.
No one's buying shit.
Everybody's selling.
Unless, however, you, what did, what did, what did fucking Vaughn call it?
The Azuki's, like, the ones that down payment, what do you call them?
Oh, a lone Zuki.
Those no bueno, you heard.
Those no bueno, you heard.
So, nothing wrong with, uh, nah, fuck that.
I'm definitely going to throw, I'm going to throw some shade.
Like, why are you guys out here taking loans on NFTs that you can't afford, bro?
Like, that's, come on.
Like, what's going on?
Unless you're making some instant bread, which is not all of that, not the fucking majority of you at all.
You know, like, what's the point?
Like, why, why even, why even do that?
That makes no sense to me.
Um, have any of you took a loan on any NFTs yet?
Hell no.
Looks like AA pad.
Paid in full, baby.
I've, I've lended, I've lended funds, but I ain't, I ain't take out no loans, though.
I just want those blur points.
That's it, that's it.
Yo, I got mad E Flint out on Perispace.
I don't borrow shit.
You know the vibes, bullets.
Come on, man.
Hell yeah.
Fuckin' debt.
Yeah, lending's definitely where it's at.
David, you're borrowing, Heath, you know it.
Come on.
Never, never.
I'm, I'm a DJ like these guys.
I'm just, I'm just farming the token.
Blur's gonna give me a bag, hopefully.
I pray to God, man.
Shit.
I think we're gonna be all disappointed.
Yeah, hopefully they don't add another month to the season.
Travis is here, ladies and gentlemen.
Get your hands together.
This guy's a fuckin' legend.
I don't know if you heard me.
$35,000 Bitcoin in 90 days.
Am I crazy?
Nah, I don't think so.
I could agree with that.
Sheesh.
I'd say by mid-summer even.
Maybe not even 90 days.
Maybe by mid-summer.
All the fun will be out once this debt thing is gone.
So like, once June 1st comes, and you know, they play us out, acting like America's gonna default, figure out whatever they're gonna do, and don't default.
I think that'll take all the scarcity out of the market, turn the market bullish.
That's really the only thing right now, keeping the market bearish.
The only thing.
So once we get past that, which is what, two weeks away?
Actually not even.
That's seven days away.
Wait, is that the only thing?
I don't see anything else bearish.
I trade the market every day.
Yo, bullish.
You were talking about this yesterday, and I was curious, like, leading up to it, do you think there's, like, a short opportunity?
Leading up to the final days of that default?
Shit.
Today was a good day to short stocks.
Yeah, right?
Did you hear what Chamav said recently in a podcast?
I forget his, I always mess up his last name.
Like, Palahapatiya, or whatever.
He basically said that he's, um, he said that he's, uh, shorting, like, big tech.
He's going long, only Microsoft and Google, and he's shorting the rest of big tech.
Yeah, I'm big bearish on tech, bro.
They have the most layoffs over the last six months.
So anything with massive layoffs is definitely a good short play.
I like the Google Play because, you know, they're a little behind the AI, but little by little, I've been playing around with Google Bard, and, um, they're, they're growing fast.
That's what it sounds like, right?
You're going to play on AI?
Because Microsoft and Google are the only two AI players, so.
But Microsoft might be better, bro.
You cannot, like, like, supercharge your growth on AI, like, and front-run open AI just like that.
They have, like, five years under their belt.
Microsoft is better, but Google has more data.
Microsoft is not better.
They bought it.
Google has built it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a better way to say it.
I agree with that.
Google's building it out.
Correct.
No, but the thing about AI models is, I agree Google has better data, but, like, the thing about the AI models is the modeling or the engineering of the AI system itself.
Like, you can have awesome data, but you still got to start from ground zero when modeling your AI system.
But better quality data helps, definitely.
But I'd rather have a better AI model than better data.
But the data is really what, yeah, it's really good.
Yeah, it's going to be, like, a supercharger.
It is.
I agree with Double A.
It's like, it's like a, you know, you know those movies, like, The Fast and the Furious, and then the guy hits the turbo?
That's what the data is going to do.
Because it literally learns off the data.
Like, it's not, the model itself, yeah, but it's really how much data you can feed it, right?
Dude, their data is one of the biggest things bought on the dark web.
But you have companies that will literally mine data and sell it for multi-millions of dollars to these big tech companies.
That is very important.
But...
And then they call me when it gets leaked so I can remove it from the internet.
But you see how quickly...
I agree.
You see how quickly ChatGPT had to turn on the web browsing feature, right, once the Bard thing came out.
So that, to me, is, like, going to be the main thing, right?
Because it's cool to, like, ask ChatGPT something, but then it's like, oh, I only have information up to September 2021.
Like, all right, whatever, dude.
Like, I need to know what's going on now.
Like, go search the internet, you know?
So now we can do that.
Like, that's, like, the next level.
So where we're, like, you know, just getting better search results and being able to do things like that.
But to be fair, they already had that, even image processing, which is not even released on a beta version.
Because if you look back at the presentation with their, one of their people about ChatGPT 4,
they actually did a sketch of a website on paper, and they were able to feed that onto the system,
and it actually built a cool page.
Which, like, bottom line, the coolest tools are just not yet released to the public.
Yeah, you know why?
I think the ChatGPT, I think where they have the edge is the plugins, right?
So everyone's building on top of that.
They're building tools on top of those models, and that, I think, is going to take it.
That gives them the edge.
But I think in terms of search, which is what Google does best, I think if they focus there, they're going to win that.
But I think Microsoft can play on, you know, these tools and things like AutoGPT and all those things.
That's really going to take them to the next level.
I agree.
Yeah, I think bottom line, like, Google needs to differentiate.
Like, as you guys said, like, they have data and a better search system.
So they can leverage that way better than Microsoft and OpenAI.
But in regards to having a dope system that gives you more thoughtful insight, I think OpenAI is still at least a year ahead, maybe.
Yeah, you can.
I agree with that.
I think Google just is.
Just wait until they catch up.
But that's really all.
You can tell by putting similar prompts in both systems, right?
And you can see, like, the differences between them.
So JAT-TPT, like, I think they just say it in a different way.
It's weird.
Like, I use them both now because, like, you read it from JAT-TPT.
It breaks it down in its own way.
It's almost like two different people.
And then you take both ideas and then extrapolate and create your own from there.
I think that makes it even more powerful, too.
Yeah, you're sleeping on cloud, too, man.
You know cloud's building AI as well.
It's a big tech company.
I got to check into that one.
But I wanted to give, like, a shout-out to JAT-GPT.
I don't know why the fuck.
I don't know how this correlates to the market.
But Solana announced that they integrated with JAT-GPTs to enable more and better analytics on their blockchain.
And suddenly the volume of NFT trading, like, tripled.
I don't get it why.
But just shout-outs to JAT-GPT and the Solana integration.
The plug-in, I think it's available now.
But they made an announcement on their page if you want to check.
If you put JAT-GPT on any product, price is going to go up.
Stock price is going up.
Or on your pitch deck or anything else.
Say it's integrated with AI in some way.
I saw, did you see Frank talking about, he basically integrated JAT-GPT in his own, like, business model where he could, he's trying to, like, create, like, an angry D-God holder or something like that.
That was pretty interesting.
I saw that.
I saw that.
I would say put it on Doodles and Moonbirds.
Yeah, Moonbirds.
Yo, apply digital, too.
I think, you know, here's the thing.
I think a lot of people are expecting, like, Google, Microsoft, these big companies to do something great with AI.
Obviously, because they have this center of attention of the market.
But a lot of y'all sleep on, like, applied fucking digital, like, cloud.
I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of companies, tech companies out there that are building shit.
They're just not posting it on the fucking news so they can ramp their stock up, right?
You know, so there's a lot of companies out there that are doing some AI stuff.
And if you want my personal opinion, I don't think Google or Microsoft are going to take that big of a percent of the market.
I think they will take a percentage of the market, but I don't think it's as big as everybody thinks it's going to be.
Because there are some very well-rounded companies out there right now that are working on shit better than Google and better than Microsoft.
Do you like Jasper?
You like Jasper?
Yeah, even, oh shit, Jasper, fucking, I mean, and these are stocks that are like $9, $10, $20, $30, you know what I mean?
Like, these are stocks that, you know, where Google was 10 years ago, you know, before they took over the fucking internet, right?
So there's a lot of other plays that you can settle yourself in that would probably give you a lot bigger return on the AI side
than already buying a company that's our max, you know, a trillion dollar fucking company.
You make your money in the market when you get into a company that is smaller now, but could be something bigger in the longevity.
Like, buying Google right now for an AI play is the worst fucking investment you could possibly do.
That's a different, what you're saying is different from what I initially heard you say, right?
Being in a better investment, buying a smaller cap company that has more upside, that makes sense.
But to say that another company is going to be bigger than Google or Microsoft and AI, I just don't think that's true.
But I do agree with you that buying in early to a smaller company that's doing good things is better.
Bro, we're in 2023.
Hold the fuck on, hold the fuck on.
Double A, don't get soft now, you the co-host.
No, I'm saying.
Yeah, we're in 2023, bro.
Some nerds in their fucking garage right now could do something bigger than Google.
No, no.
That's just the fact.
That's like everyone's saying, like any blockchain is going to take over Ethereum.
The Ethereum killer, blah, blah, blah, or the Bitcoin killer.
That's what it sounds like to me.
But I agree with you that investing in one of these smaller cap companies is probably more upside, right?
Yeah, that's the worst take you've ever had, bullish trader, and you always have great takes.
But I think to clarify what his take was, I think he was saying if you're making an AI play, then Google isn't the spot.
I think we should remember this conversation because it's recorded, and you guys are completely misconstruing the entire mechanics of Google.
Google is not an AI company, period.
They're not.
They're not going to be.
They are taking on AI.
They're not saying, fuck Google.com.
Fuck everything we've done over the last 25 years.
We are an AI-generated company now.
That is not what Google is doing.
Google is taking a small percentage of the market, and they're going to utilize it in their way they think necessary to build, right?
But an AI company that is solely driven by AI is going to do better than something like Google.
Not really, because it depends on the use case, right?
So right now, the use case is that people are searching for information.
So that ties into what Google does best.
If you can come up with a better use case for AI right now, then I would agree with you.
But the use case right now, Google owns that use case, right?
But the other use case is driving.
That's Tesla, right?
What is the other use case?
The other use case is their business operations efficiency driving.
And that's Microsoft.
That's Microsoft, right?
They own all business operations, computer software.
I would say I'm in the middle between you guys on this.
But if I'm looking for an AI play by itself, I'm not looking at Google for it.
But Google is not going anywhere.
No, but I know.
That's the difference, right?
I agree with you on an investment play getting more upside.
But he's saying that this new company is going to take over Google and Microsoft and AI.
I don't agree with you on the line on the notes.
You can go and replay the recording.
No, no, no.
You can replay the recording.
I never said that.
He just said it again.
No, he didn't.
I said they will do better than that.
I did not say they're going to take them over.
You mean in the market price, right?
No, no, no.
Let me say it.
He didn't say that.
He didn't say it was going to take over.
What I understood was that it could potentially be a better play due to the market cap basically
off that company and them being focused on these and doing good work, that would bring
you more of an upside percentage-wise.
That's all I understood, basically.
He said, how could Google compete in AI when they're not an AI-centric company?
Another company that's AI-centric will beat them out.
Okay, where did I say that?
You just said that.
They're going to turn Google.
Well, you said it.
What the fucking recording?
I never said that.
I'm not a moron.
Why did you say it with my own two ears?
The problem is that any big AI company is going to get bought.
Did I say that they were going to take over Google?
Yes, you did, chat.
I never said that.
You're a fucking idiot.
Dude, you just literally said that.
I just asked chat.
I never said they would take over Google.
No, you said that Google is not.
You said Google is not.
Don't put.
Yeah, Google is not.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Let's calm it down.
Let's calm it down.
It's too early.
It's too early.
Yeah, it's only 420.
Hold on, it's only 420.
Take a fucking bomb.
Yeah, sure.
Hold on.
Let's take it back.
Let's take it back.
Let's go to the hands.
Yogi, I'm interested in what you've got to say, my brother.
Yogi, go ahead.
Yogi.
I was muted.
Sorry, I took a lag.
What up, guys?
Profit, Double, Vaughn.
Great to see you all.
I just came up because I didn't know we had our equity research space on AI going on today.
I was listening in the background, and I just had to raise my hand.
Exciting conversation in the space.
I think someone was mentioning.
So I think there's a few ways to think about it.
Microsoft and Google are conglomerates when it comes to tech.
So comparing them to a standalone AI company is probably not the best way to kind of evaluate
upside because Microsoft is a software company first, a cloud storage company second, and
AI is probably their fastest growing division right now.
And again, through acquisition via OpenAI.
Google is the same.
I think between BART and ChadGBT, I haven't looked at the tech, but I think Microsoft currently
has the edge just based on how prevalent they are on consumer devices.
Google has had a lead on the search engine, and I think they'll do well.
Who knows?
I need to look at the numbers, which I probably will after this space.
Now I'm curious.
And I think that one point that DoubleA made that is important is that AI will become open
sourced, I think, and there will be standalone unique AI companies.
But to compete with Microsoft and Google will be a bit more difficult given how data storage
and analytics is trending towards.
So thinking about what Google...
So over the last 20 years, internet companies have generally operated in a world of a low,
regulatory regime, generally speaking.
Like data privacy wasn't a thing.
Being able to do, experiment, all that has really changed over the past five years.
For anyone that's based in Europe, you probably have seen GDPR.
And so data is the most important thing when it comes to AI, depending upon, again, your AI
model and what you're building for.
But speaking about general AI and what we're seeing with at least ChadGBT and BART and some
of these, it's going to be hard to compete with those companies because they have such large
data sets and they're constantly gathering every day via cookies or whatever that is,
which is super fascinating, but also why it creates such a strong moat to overcome.
Now, if you want to think about just AI and BART, then it's like I would rather look at,
you know, NVIDIA, Micron, the companies that are going to power the hardware that goes into
AI, you know, training and language models and all that.
And if you want to look at retail, look at Microsoft, Google, Salesforce, Splunk.
There's a couple others that are publicly traded.
But for anyone that wants to do pure play AI bets, you're probably not going to have access
unless you're an accredited investor and have a pipeline to, you know, early stage deals.
Just my two cents on the topic there.
And I think, yeah, I think it's really hard to kind of now I need to like look into this.
I haven't been following tech for the last couple of months, but I think Microsoft, Google,
even Facebook, IBM, some of these like hardware companies with a strong consumer facing platform
just have the data today.
I think over time it will get easier, but it's just the play of the day is just like human
metadata.
And these companies have controlled the market over the last 20 years.
Yogi, appreciate you.
Again, great to see you.
What's up?
Yeah, I just want to maybe give a little context because it's pretty funny.
We're talking like Google's going to join AI.
There may be one of, I mean, arguably the single most important company in AI over the past decade
in terms of who they actually employ, the research they do, what they figured out.
Google does struggle with products, right?
If anyone doesn't know, you go to killedbygoogle.com, you can see all the shitty products they launch
and then kill down, but they are definitely top in terms of, often in terms of research
and like what actually pays the other companies to come out.
Even like ChatGBT came out of BERT from Google, right?
Research, they say, we've got a brand new revolutionary architecture.
And then OpenAI says, okay, cool, awesome.
We're going to use that and make some money from it.
Now, a couple of things did happen.
So one is you guys probably might know that a couple of years ago, Google got in trouble
because their head of AI ethics said, hey guys, looks like we have some problems.
Things aren't being ethical.
So Google said, cool, fire.
And when that happened, a lot of their top AI engineers left in solidarity
and a bunch of these other companies like Ray or AnyScale or Stability AI,
all these things popped out from a bunch of those engineers leaving.
And then boom, we have a little bit more of a competitive landscape now.
However, Google has been aggressively poaching those people back, paying ungodly salaries.
They've gotten a couple of really amazing people.
So AI is not necessarily like, it's not an army of engineers all working on it.
A few geniuses really can like push it forward.
Now, Google, product, right?
So I think they were doing the right thing with pushing BART out fast
and getting it integrated into Google because obviously Microsoft and OpenAI
are eating their lunch, right?
But they do have the absolute brainpower behind them.
Can they just do products?
So that's all.
Thanks.
Damn, again, it's so nice to hear from you.
It's been a minute.
You don't miss me, bro?
I'm literally too busy doing AI all day.
But I'm close to having a quote of my voice soon.
So when you see BeganBotBot, that's my AI version.
He'll be out in like maybe a couple of weeks.
Still working on some tweets.
Oh, bro, pull up.
I got actually something I'm putting together,
a specific AI metaverse space on Fridays, 8 p.m. Eastern.
First one's going to be this Friday.
So I would love Alpha.
Please, please pull up.
Like not bullshit.
Like I know you don't got bullshit.
I'm talking about for anybody listening, not like, oh, I'm going to chill my fucking metaverse.
No, no, no.
I want to hear fucking Alpha.
I want to hear what you're building.
I want to hear technology.
I want to hear all that.
Anyway, thank you, Began.
I appreciate you for coming through.
Ben, what's up?
Yeah, I just wanted to make the point because like there was this argument about,
okay, if you control the data and all that, you have like an advantage and stuff like that.
But actually, ChatGPT, from what I had researched, they use this thing called Common Crawler,
which basically indexes data from billions of web pages and it's updated regularly.
So with that to say, like, they don't have that crazy advantage against the people from OpenAI.
Maybe people of OpenAI, they don't have the same data, but they still have a lot of data
that they have been using from all different type of sources.
You know, like Google has a better search system, but it's not like they are accessing
privileged information that Bing or other search systems don't have access to.
You know, they just provide you better search results.
But at the end of the day, they don't have an advantage in regards to the data that they are using.
And even in regards to their cloud systems, they cannot just appropriate the data from their
customers and train their AI models.
It's not how that part works.
So to be honest, I don't think that Google would have a bigger advantage than Microsoft
paired up with OpenAI because their bottleneck in their operation would be the scalability
of their system.
And now that they're working with Microsoft and Microsoft has Azure Cloud, they don't have
that problem no more.
So that's why, like, I don't think BART is going to take over OpenAI.
But DoubleA got a contrarian opinion.
I want to hear it.
No, I actually kind of agree with you, but for a different reason, I feel like ChatGPG
has a better brand.
And I feel like they're doing things in terms of building, they're working with other customers
to do the plugins and people are using it more.
I feel like that's the advantage, not necessarily the data set.
But Google definitely has an advantage on the data, I think.
I could be wrong, but OpenAI was, you know, if you heard Elon talk, right, Elon Musk, he
said that he helped start OpenAI because of Larry Page, of his conversations with Larry
Page on what he was doing with AI, right?
So that's why they actually started OpenAI, to compete with Google.
So they must be leaps and bounds ahead, right?
It's just what we're seeing on the customer facing is where OpenAI, I think, is going to
achieve better results, right?
And the brand is better, right?
BARD is just a terrible name, but they need to rebrand.
Once they rebrand that to just Google, I think they're going to be on par.
But I think ChatGPG, again, has the advantage in terms of the consumer facing tools that
people are actually using and spreading across the internet.
Yeah, I just think the models are going to be better on OpenAI's side, but I would love
to hear Begin on this one.
What do you think, fam?
Well, yeah, so this is actually funny because a lot of us, like, kind of on the ground or
have taken a shift in the past couple of months, and actually there's a Google, like, leaked
memo that came out saying Google does no longer has a moat.
And what they were talking about is a lot of us thought that the key was who has the biggest
brain, right?
The big smart brain.
So right now, ChatGPT, there's BARG, right?
There's some other ones here.
And we thought it was just make that one the smartest, have the most data.
However, we found out that smaller specific models actually perform better on tap.
So for instance, ChatGPT, I asked her to write some code.
I asked her to write me a story, right?
It's a super genius.
It can do those things pretty well, right?
However, I could actually get a better story from a smaller model removing all of the training
related to everything ChatGPT does and just focusing purely on writing, and you get better
results.
And so what happened was is Facebook, they have their own model too, obviously.
Everyone uses AI to make money.
They have been for the last, you know, many, many years.
The last five years, every company is using AI to make money already, just a note.
Now they're figuring out, like, how it becomes a product.
So they had Llama.
Llama got leaked to 4chan.
Everyone I know uses this leaked version of Llama, and we train it on our own stuff.
And right now, it's actually a fun website.
It's down right now.
I was going to post it.
Chatbot Arena.
You actually can put in a single question, and it will pull up two random models, and
it'll give you the answer from both.
And you tell them, which one do you like better?
And you will laugh your ass off.
The other day, we had one of them.
It was like, that's got to be BARG.
Nope.
It was a little custom-trained model, and then BARG gave you the biggest piece of shit answer
ever, and it's funny because it does vary, and it's different here.
So what a lot of companies are realizing now, it's not about actually owning the god, the
single god.
It's about having custom-trained models on exactly what data you need, and then how do
you actually intertwine them?
So if you have one tiny model that is really good at code, and you have one that's really
good at writing, well, you need both deployed.
You need them talking to each other.
What's that infrastructure?
Companies that build that infrastructure and make that stitching together easy, which is
a lot of what auto, agent, baby, all those various things are trying to do.
That's like a big place where money is, but it's not just about like, we have this single
god that's an AGI.
Everyone I know is deploying their own models, so that's all I think.
Vaughn, try to find Vivid and invite him up for me here.
We're going to kind of merge a little bit the topic back to Ordinal's.
We got Trevor here.
First of all, this guy leads one of the biggest, I think the biggest, Ordinal show currently,
and he's been doing it for a while now, not just like the last few days.
So shout out to you, man.
Thank you for pulling up.
I know you're super busy prepping some stuff.
I'm excited to hear the alpha from you, and we'll get right into it.
Tendi, I'm going to pass it to you, and then Trevor, if you want to just jump into anything
specific you think is important.
I know Tendi's also here, part of the crew.
What's up, Tendi?
Yo, thank you for having me.
Hey, I'm just honestly here to set up Trevor and give him the old, hey, I'm here for the
Rare Stamp giveaway, Trev.
When Rare Stamps.
Oh, shit.
It's like that, Tendi.
I see a bunch of the Ordinal's crew coming in here.
I mean, I think a lot of people, for very reasonable reasons, thought Ordinal's would
be a fad or a meta.
And I think some people, at least, maybe think that it might be more of a trend going forward,
that it might have some longevity to it.
So yeah, I just wanted to join to answer any questions that people have, hear what other
people are thinking.
I've been doing the Ordinal show for three months now, and so I'm kind of so in the thick
of it now that it's hard to kind of peel back up and recognize where other people are
in their journey.
But I love this show, and probably thanks for having me.
I'd be happy to participate in the discussion and see what everybody here thinks.
Yeah, same here.
I'm here for Ordinal commentary.
If you've got any questions, I will give you the Sigma Spaces type of answer where it's
kind of layman's and not as Trevor Dev's side of things.
Also, shout out to Billy.
We've got Unisat team here.
Billy Resty with his dope project with generative art and stuff.
Ordinals are fucking dope, and we're here to help.
Fucking legends.
Double and Smokey, if it's not about Ordinals, respectfully, we're going to move on for
now.
We'll go back to the other convo, if that's okay.
Vivid, what's up?
What's good?
What's good?
What's good?
Prophets, Trevor, Vaughn, what's popping?
Billy's up here, which is dopey.
I saw he wrote a thread earlier, but I wanted to get some up on the Cursed Ordinals now that
some of the devs are kind of like dropping threads and whatnot.
But I really, really, really love this.
A lot of people are asking if it's going to be a fad or not, but really what the Cursed
Ordinals are, are double inscriptions.
There was a bug.
I don't know if protocol is the right way to put it, but there was a bug in the protocol
where they gave them negative numbers because the indexer couldn't index it, if I'm saying
that correctly.
I'm sure one of these guys can chime in.
No, you're absolutely correct.
But okay, so the thing that I absolutely love about these right now is that the bug
is going to get fixed.
So depending on when that gets fixed, the negative inscription numbers are going to be
really, really rare.
And a lot of people were concerned about once you're priced out of sub 100K, sub 10K, sub
even a million, what's going to be the next thing for Ordinals when it comes to like what's
like, you know, desired.
And that's like rare sats, stuff like that.
But that game for the people who were already really on it in the beginning, there's a lot
of people that hold rare sats already and are selling them.
And yeah, there's a lot of sats within one DTC, but that's going to be another game that's
going to be hard for normies or people that are just getting on the wave now.
So I'm excited for Cursed Ordinals.
You can actually, there's a platform that was built by Billy Kroger.
He's a fucking straight up Chad, smart guy.
He's building a lot of stuff, but you can actually do Cursed Ordinals now on their platform.
You can actually choose to inscribe a Cursed Ordinals.
Wait a second.
You're saying currently anybody could be, let me make sure I understand this.
If you're currently holding Bitcoin, there's a possibility that you have rare sats, that
you own rare sats without knowing?
Yes.
Yeah.
Tendi, could you, because you're probably better at explaining that one than me.
I'm going to give this one to Trevor.
The Bitcoin that's been sitting in the ledger for years could be fucking rare?
100,000%.
Yeah.
Trevor probably has the most in-depth breakdown on this.
But yeah, essentially anyone holding a BTC, even half a BTC, there's a very good chance
you may or may not have a, not a rare, but an uncommon sat.
A rare sat is even rarer, and we were lucky enough to witness that this week.
But real quick, before Trevor does that, I just wrote on the inscription number meta, all
inscription numbers after like 1.5 mil are kind of like diluted, not only because BRC20
is kind of fucked that meta, but we had SuperTestNet send through that zero sat transaction.
So that kind of screwed everything after 3.4 mil.
So they're off by like one or two.
And we've been speculating like, all right, what's the next inscription number meta, which
of course we see now the cursed ordinals.
But since it's going to be patched, I just want people to keep in mind the teleburned ordinal
inscription number is going to be the next meta.
Because, you know, we haven't seen that many collections burn over, and it's all dependent
on the indexer.
So once an indexer spins up, you know, teleburned inscription number, the actual listing, we're
going to see that meta kind of come about.
So go ahead, Trevor.
Yeah, great intro, Tandy.
No, I mean, there's a lot of interesting things that you can do with inscriptions just because
it's a totally different tech stack and paradigm.
And so speaking of the course, the cursed ordinals and inscriptions, essentially those are going
to count down instead of counting up.
And so when we get to the point where they do make the change, it's like a game of chicken
where the person who gets their, their ordinal inscribed, their cursed ordinal inscribed last
will have the lowest number because it'll be like negative one, for example.
Although technically a higher negative number is, is, is lower.
But, you know, the whole idea is like, it's a different, it's like a different game, right?
And there's a lot of different ways to do storytelling with ordinals.
Um, and the other type of games like Tandy is talking about like creating a new index
for teleburned, um, uh, NFTs and a teleburn is essentially where you, um, you hold an NFT
and you reveal, um, a custom burn address on Ethereum.
And then when you, uh, send your NFT to that burn address, then it will inscribe it to your
wallet, um, on, on ordinals.
And so you can verifiably prove that this person held the same, um, ordinal, sorry, the
same NFT before it was, um, it was burned and moved over to, to, uh, ordinals and inscriptions.
And so there was a guy named Jason Lowry, who is, he's actually an author on, um, he wrote
a, he wrote a book about Bitcoin.
He's a very successful entrepreneur.
I believe he sold the company for like $500 million before getting into crypto.
And then he bought a bunch of Bitcoin.
He bought a bunch of NFTs.
He has like a ton of board apes and he teleburned a board ape.
Like I thought, you know, I didn't realize this because I, you know, there was like a meme
going around where people are like, Hey, I burned this like rare board ape.
And it was like, the traits were not even possible.
Like they like made up all the combinations and that was pretty funny.
But there was an actual guy who did that with, um, Casey Rodemore and another guy named
Rob Hamilton, who are, uh, Casey, the creative or knows Rob is like a entrepreneur in the
Bitcoin ecosystem and a developer.
And, um, yeah, like he literally burned a board ape and his, and he said, and there was
a decrypt article about it.
He said that it was like putting a Lamborghini in a trash compactor, uh, something like that.
It's like pretty funny.
Um, and for him, like, I guess it's an inconsequential amount of money.
Um, cause he's like, he's, he's pretty successful, I'd say.
Um, and then with the, um, the rare sats, there's a whole other dimension here.
Um, and Leonidas, who is the cohost of the Ordinal show runs a website called ord.io.
He's really been kind of thinking about and innovating on the storytelling here.
And so there's a difference between, uh, vintage sats and rare sats.
So rare sats are also called the, uh, Casey Rodimer rarity index, where it's a, it's a,
it's a, um, rarity index that Casey came up with, which is pretty cool, which is that
it's like a, um, I'm making this, I'm making this wrong, but there's like uncommon rare
epic and legendary.
And so legendary is like the first sat ever mind of all time.
There's only one legendary sat.
And then, um, epic is like the first sat in every having.
So every having that first sat is the epic sat.
And then, uh, rare sats, I think are the first sat of every difficulty adjustment.
And I believe uncommon might be the first sat of every block.
And so every block right now has about 6.25 or more BTC in it.
So that means, um, essentially 625 million Satoshis.
So the uncommon one is quite rare.
If you look at how many Satoshis there are, and then the rare and epic are even, uh, you
know, even more scarce because a rare one is like the first of the first of every difficulty
adjustment, which, which means that like, um, the network is so active or has enough fees
that, um, or hash power that the, the network actually automatically corrects to make it harder
for miners, um, to solve the puzzle.
So it's like, you know, if you're doing proof of work and you're like solving the puzzle,
like that puzzle and get more and more complex and, and the, um, the algorithm is meant to
like keep it to approximately 10 minutes, uh, per block so that it gets harder and harder
because when you have like, you know, whatever, so much hashes, you know, being, being sent,
that means like, it's going to get faster and faster to find that.
So if they didn't have a difficulty adjustment, then the blocks would be getting faster and
faster and closer together.
Um, and so that difficulty adjustment happens pretty rarely, like maybe a few times a year.
And then of course the halving happens every four years, which is where the, uh, block
subsidy, which is the 6.25 BTC for every block goes down by 50%.
And so at the beginning of Bitcoin, it was like 50 BTC per block.
Now it's 6.2 by 25 BTC per block.
So that's the Casey Rotimer rarity index.
And then the, uh, vintage sats are basically like the older, the better.
So like based on like whatever year that they were mined, because the ordinal number, the
serial number is based on when the, the Bitcoin was created or the Satoshis were created.
Um, and so the older ones are considered vintage sats and you can go all the way back to literally
when, um, like Satoshi first started though.
None of those sats have moved from, from his, his wallet like ever and probably, probably won't
ever move.
Um, and then there's, uh, other like ways to do storytelling.
So there's, uh, Nakamoto sats, which are any sats that Satoshi sent to somebody.
Um, there's, um, pizza sats, which is like the, um, the 10,000 Bitcoin that was part of
the two pizzas.
I've got Bitcoin pizza day, the 10,000 Bitcoin that was part of that.
Those are all pizza sats.
Um, there's also like, if you, if you're into numbers that you can have like palindrome sats,
which are sats where the serial number is, you know, the same backwards and forwards.
Um, and there's other storytelling things that you could do to create narratives around
collections.
Yeah.
So basically, basically digital coin collecting and digital stamp collecting.
Hold on, Trevor.
Sorry.
Uh, I just had to address this.
There's over 400 of you in here, meaning the alpha is real.
So like, comment, retweet, tag a friend that needs this information because six months from
now, when you're up off of ordinals, they're going to be mad.
They didn't know about it.
Trevor, go ahead, sir.
Hey, yo, did you mention sat names, Trev?
Oh yeah.
So there's also sat names.
So basically if you convert the sat serial number to base 26, which means like you take
all the numbers and you convert them to an alphabetical, um, then you can create sat
words.
So you can have like, um, you know, your name or I think there's, I forget what the ones
were, but there's some like cool names that people have already found.
They tend to be longer words now because, um, the serial number essentially gets shorter
over time.
So I think it's like, I won't be able to get Trevor, the sat that has Trevor on that, uh,
converts to Trevor until like 2047 or 2070 or something like that.
Um, so, but if you have like, if you want to find like cool longer words, like that also
has a way to get value.
And we saw with the, um, uh, with the, uh, the Bitcoin magazine conference, there was an
auction for 300 uncommon stats.
I believe it was, it was the uncommon stats or might've been Hal Finney sets, which are
sets that are owned by Hal Finney, um, 300 of them, which is essentially like 20 cents or
15 cents sold for 0.13 BTC.
So there is already like a proven premium on this and people are running like operations
where they like, we'll send like a hundred Bitcoin to Binance and then send and then
withdraw a hundred Bitcoin to Binance.
And we'll just do this like over and over again, like panning for gold essentially to
find these, uh, rare and unique stats.
So yeah, it's super unique, um, aspect of, of ordinals because of the way that UTXOs work
on Ethereum as an account model.
Bitcoin is a UTXO model, which essentially means that it's kind of like, um, you know,
like if you have a, uh, if you have like cash only, like it's kind of like saying like
there's no such thing as, as dollars and cents.
There's only dollar bills and coins like a UTXO is like, you know, if you have a $10
bill, uh, you, you don't have like individual dollars in that $10 bill, you just have a
$10 bill.
A UTXO is sort of like that.
It's like a package of sats.
And so when you send, if I'm, if I have like one Bitcoin, I want to send 0.1 to profits.
What I'm actually doing is I'm splitting that one Bitcoin, um, into two different UTXOs and
I'm sending 0.1 to profits and 0.9 back to myself.
Um, and so you can, and then when it comes to ordinal theory, ordinal theory works by
tracking the first, the first one in the line of code, the first UTXO is given like the
lower number, um, in that, in that order.
And it's, and so it can be tracked throughout the entire, um, the entire history of the blockchain.
And you can find like, Hey, like this, the, these UTXOs were part of the silk road that,
you know, the FBI, um, confiscated from them.
And then maybe make a PFP collection called like FBI or something like that.
You know what I mean?
Like there's ways that you can combine, uh, storytelling and the history of these individual
UTXOs into, uh, an art project or art collection that give it like, um, an additional layer of
collectability.
Trevor, can you explain real quick or re-explain like UTXO, like how you can find what, like
what type of stats you have?
Yeah.
So there's people like there's custom software that people have developed and there are a
couple of services I think are coming out.
I believe ordinal hub and rare, rare Satoshi society or rare sat society, uh, released a
tool that you can use.
I haven't tried it myself.
Maybe I think, I think Billy has, but essentially like they can scan your wallet and tell you
like, if you have anything, if you have anything there and they may not like think of everything.
So, you know, I think that, um, there's a lot of creativity involved where you can like,
if you, if you study Bitcoin history, you could come up with something that no one has thought
And then you could also identify like where to find those UTXOs because you can, you can
find the wallet that they're in.
Um, and then maybe you can work backwards to deduce like if it's, if it's Binance, like
they, you know, they have the biggest like Bitcoin wallet probably in the world.
So, or Coinbase, like you can kind of deduce like where they are from that.
Um, and so the difference between the UTXO and the account model is like UTXO model is
more like, you know, like, uh, like dollar bills, like, you know, a $10 bill, like I
said, where if you have, if you have a $10 bill, you don't have, you don't have $10, you
have a $10 bill, right?
If you have a UTXO with 10 Bitcoin, you don't have, you know, uh, like 10 pieces of Bitcoin.
You have one piece that is 10 Bitcoin.
And then it splits up at the different UTXOs and actually your wallet probably displays
the sum of all your different UTXOs.
Um, but ordinal theory uses how these UTXOs are created in order to determine the order
of the serial numbers.
And so with, with Ethereum, it's more just like a bank account balance.
Like, you know, you don't have a package of money in your bank account.
It's just all completely fungible.
Whereas UTXOs are less fungible than, um, Ethereum is, you know, speaking in, uh, sat
bounties, I got a bounty out for Bitcoin frog sat.
So if you're sitting on it, uh, you're sitting on a pretty penny.
You can also check right now on ordinal hub, uh, dot com slash sat dash scanner.
Uh, you can drop your wallet addresses in there and see if you have any, any rares or unique.
Yeah, I just, I just pinned that up top.
Um, there's two resources where you can literally just now in a couple of seconds, just type
in your Bitcoin wallet address and then you can kind of see if you have anything in there
and do let me know if you have a rare or a mythic, I will purchase it off you.
Uh, I don't think you have a mythic, but no, you can't actually have a mythic.
Don't hit up Billy guys.
Hit up me, please.
Your buddy.
But yeah, no, it's, uh, a lot has happened since yesterday.
This curse inscription thing has been around, but I think the team recently kind of announced
like a game plan.
So people are kind of hopping on it.
Um, but there's, there's a lot to unpack and, um, it's, it's pretty interesting.
Basically, you know, anything negative right now is going to stay negative.
And then by a certain block, I'm not sure if I should say publicly, you know, they're
going to update the word protocol.
And at that point, if you inscribe the way people are doing right now to get the cursed,
it will just be a positive number.
So I don't encourage people to go, go nuts, you know, play around.
It's, it's kind of reverting back to February, right?
Like the safest way is to inscribe this and get it sent to a Sparrow wallet where you can
control the UTXOs, which is just like, if you think about it, finance and Coinbase, they
kind of obscure some of the custom controls you get with Bitcoin, like being able to identify,
you know, which, which coins you want to send and coin control and that sort of thing.
So just to be safe, I created a new Sparrow wallet.
I inscribed some things, I sent them there.
And then I immediately like labeled my UTXOs and then froze them.
So I can't spend them.
I also tried sending a couple to Xverse and created a new wallet.
And I'm just not going to touch that until the indexers kind of come online.
There is a, there is an indexer that someone built for the negative inscription numbers.
I think there's probably over 4,500 at this point, but pretty sure it just cracked 5k.
Oh, did it?
Wow.
Yeah, it's, it's moving.
It is more expensive than a regular inscription because it's a more complex transaction.
And again, someone pretty clever discovered this on accident.
I think it was Danny Deasy, the guy who created Astral Babes and the Lightning Wallet where they
were doing like you mint with lightning in it and scribes for you.
That's the same way that Bitcoin Frogs was minted out so quickly.
Ribbit.
Ribbit.
But I think he accidentally encountered that by using like different outputs and it just didn't
get picked up by the indexers.
I do think it's important to note that the indexing problem can probably be fixed quicker
than the Ord team is going to push out this update.
But I'm hearing it's going to be, it's not going to be for a month or so.
So there's no rush, you know, don't do anything crazy like mint a ton of this BRC token that
might not even, there's two tickers, you know, one is on a regular positive inscription and
one is on a negative inscription.
So we don't really know, you know, how Unisat is going to deal with that or anything like
that, but it is interesting essentially having another kind of sub 10k rush where people are
trying to get these, these cursed inscriptions.
And I think it's a cool part of the lore and it's an interesting bug that people are actually
embracing.
And just to be clear, the negative numbers, it came up on the Ordinal show like a month
ago and then the team kind of decided to go with that route.
There was a lot of suggestions like doing 0.5 numbers or just ignoring them completely,
but they felt like it, it wouldn't be fair since they technically were, you know, inscribed
properly just in a way that they didn't really define in the protocol.
You know, they thought it best to include them, put them behind zero.
And then after the patch, just kind of move on with regular programming.
But yeah, I inscribed a bunch of stuff last night.
It was a late night and then I ran out of money.
So I decided to share with everyone, like kind of how to get your feet wet.
Hey, Billy, real quick.
Ladies and gentlemen, Billy, real quick.
We're going to cycle the stage.
There's a lot of requests.
So make sure.
Yeah, I got to roll out.
Thank you for having me up.
As always, profits over weight.
Tendi, I love you.
It doesn't mean yell you're leaving.
Thank you, Tendi.
Bye.
Love you.
Anyway, you guys know the vibes.
Got to keep it.
Got to keep it classy.
Please don't tell me you're leaving.
I might be really upset.
Anyway, we're going to cycle through.
Go ahead, Trevor.
Were you going to talk?
No, I think, Billy, I'm going to end on a great point there.
And, yeah, I'm just curious what questions people have or for people who are just getting
into Ornals right now or maybe their interest has peaked, would love to hear, like, what
some of the barriers are or questions or, you know, anything we can answer that can help
people wrap their heads around it.
You have a question for him, Double?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sort of a question.
Yeah.
So this narrative of, like, low inscription numbers, which I totally understand, and also
rare sets, that's one aspect of this.
But how do you feel about, like, when these numbers are getting very high, right?
So new projects or new inscriptions coming out at, like, 8 million, we're about to cross
10 million pretty soon.
Feels like we're already at the point where that number doesn't matter anymore, right?
So now it's really just about the art itself outside of, like, maybe the top, let's say,
a million, right?
Or whatever someone just said, 1.5 or whatever that number is before, like, these BRC20s just
took over.
So what do you think about, like, that narrative playing out as we move forward?
Like, I'm looking at some stuff at, like, 10 million already, right?
So what do you think about that?
Yeah, I think the number is just, like, one criteria, right?
Among many criteria that collectors are going to look at to collect these.
So, of course, like, some of the first ones ever are going to be really valuable.
Like, the first 10, first 100, first 1,000, first 10,000.
But then at a point, I think it becomes, like, weighted less, essentially.
So, like, you know, people are going to, you can imagine someone creating, like, a spreadsheet
where they have different criteria, like, how's the community?
Do they host Twitter spaces?
How good is the art?
What is the team's background or the artist's background?
You know, how early is it?
You know, is it, like, what style of art is it?
Is it a PFP?
Is it a one-on-one?
And I think, like, when collectors look at ordinals, they're going to look at, they're
going to weight all of these different factors.
And so, you know, of course, you will have early ones that are helped by that fact.
And then, you know, there's even, there's so many things you can do.
I mean, like, DGods essentially inscribed all of their BTC DGods in a single Bitcoin block.
So that was, like, a really clever, like, thing to do.
And that was, like, the first time someone did a whole collection in a single block.
Trevor, is that cheaper to do?
Sorry to interrupt.
It's more expensive.
I mean, I think, you know, minor.
Okay, it's more expensive to do it on one block.
Yeah, because you have to hire a minor to get it done for you.
So you can only do it by hiring a minor.
And so same thing with, like, the four megabyte blocks.
Like, there's also, you know, the earlier four megabyte blocks, like the Taproot Wizards
four megabyte block they did.
I think it was, like, 642 or 632 is under 1K.
And it's also the biggest Bitcoin block in history.
And, you know, it was covered by all these news media outlets.
And, you know, it obviously has, like, Udi and the Taproot Wizards behind it.
So that one's going to be pretty valuable.
I think Udi has said he's never going to sell that one.
And so, like, there were also Bitcoin Magazine made an actually even bigger block
because that was 3.94 megabytes for that inscription.
And then there's kind of, like, a race to get a little bit bigger each time.
But there's a risk because if the miner puts together the block, let's say, like, the theoretical
limit is four megabytes.
So if the miner submits a block that's, like, over that, like, all the nodes could theoretically,
like, reject it.
And the miner would, like, lose essentially, like, $200,000 or whatever the Coinbase reward
converts to the 6.25 BTC.
So, you know, like, people don't, the miners don't want to, like, keep pushing it higher
and higher, but there's also an incentive because, you know, there's, like, a ranking
of, like, what's the biggest inscription ever and, you know, that number keeps going
So that's, like, an interesting thing to follow as well.
So I think, like, if I were to sum it up, like, there's just so many more dimensions
to ordinals in terms of, like, criteria that you could weight the NFTs on or the ordinals
on, which I think makes it, gives it a lot of variability for more people to do something
different and unique, with the biggest problem being that these, that it's going to be more
and more expensive over time to inscribe these ordinals as the gas prices go up.
Like, when ordinals first started, you know, you could inscribe, like, a 10K collection, probably
like the frogs, for, you know, half a Bitcoin or under a Bitcoin.
But now, like, as the gas prices get higher and higher, you're looking at, like, a million
dollars maybe to inscribe a whole collection.
And so this is also, I think, why the volume for Bitcoin frogs took off in the, when it
did, because people were, because the gas fees are super high and people were, like, some
smart traders were thinking, like, hey, there's some probability that, like, there's going to
be fewer and fewer 10K collections, essentially.
And so that's why you see, like, Taproot Wizards is, like, a 2K collection.
In the early days, like, some of the biggest collections are only, like, 100 or 300 pieces.
Like, I inscribed a collection myself that's 50 pieces.
My friend, Grace.BTC, did 100.
And then the Ord Rocks was, like, one of the first ones that did a 300 collection, I believe,
for those rocks.
So, you know, it's a different, there's different dynamics at play, and there's more, like,
variability for ways you can innovate or stand out, I think, than, well, of course, with
Ethereum, I guess, like, programmability, is it, right?
That's the biggest way you can stand out on Ethereum.
But I think that a lot of collections, like, haven't explored that yet, or that there's,
like, that's maybe even more difficult than, like, kind of just, like, thinking about, like,
rare sats.
Like, you don't need to be technical or get an audit or, you know, kind of be on the
bleeding edge of technology to come up with, like, new narratives and new factors that
can make your collection more attractive compared to others.
Whereas, like, if you're doing programmability and functionality, there's more expense, there's
more risk, and more complexity, essentially.
But as I said earlier, like, a lot of the cost and time it takes may become less as the gas
fees on Bitcoin take off.
Like, so, yeah, those are some thoughts.
Hope that was helpful.
Yeah.
One thing that people have been doing is, like, taking, you know, the cost to inscribe
a current collection and then dividing that by the supply and saying, you know, that's
where the perceived floor should be.
And I think that's an interesting way to look at it.
You know, like Trevor said, it's, like, it's crazy.
Like, if you want to dominate an entire block now, I think Frank paid, like, two, two and
a half Bitcoin.
Um, and that was just for the fees.
I don't know what they paid Luxor Mining to, as, like, a service fee.
Uh, but now if you do that, I mean, it's, it's going to be multiples of that.
Um, and by the way, just on that one, they inscribed super, super small images.
So there were 535 D guides, and I believe they're, like, 15 pixels by 15 pixels.
So you can't really even use them as your profile picture.
People are downloading from a different database, but it was more of just kind of a statement
and just kind of, you know, dominating an entire block like Taproot Wizards.
And there's only, I think, four entities that have done that, um, thus far.
So I, yeah, I noticed that, and I thought that was kind of odd, too, right?
Because when you go on the site, they're basically referencing it from a different, like, the,
the full resolution image is what you see on, like, their website.
But on the actual Ordinal, it's, like, very pixelated.
It's cool, though, because that's kind of one way.
On Ordinal, there's no way to really, um, establish a collection other than just kind
of hosting it.
Your J, I mean, you could inscribe a JSON that says, hey, this is the collection.
But I thought that was a cool way to say, like, hey, this entire block is the collection.
And then they kind of just, like, point to that.
So what do you think about the BRC, um, two, uh, 721 thing?
It's interesting.
I mean, it's kind of, like, just kind of, uh, going backwards.
It's basically trying to solve that problem, right?
It's trying to solve that problem of, like, um, recognizing these collections through a protocol.
Because right now, it's, like, each, like, um, each, uh, marketplace kind of has to figure
that out on their own, right?
Yeah, I checked that out yesterday.
And that, um, for everyone listening, basically BRC 721, essentially, you are, you know, you're
just kind of pointing to an off-chain server.
And that would be a way to use, you know, IPFS for, for, like, a larger animation file
or whatever you're trying to put on there.
Some people feel like the value prop right now is to actually be on-chain.
So it's cool to kind of work within the parameters of Bitcoin to, to get your data on-chain.
And, you know, some feel like that's kind of, although, obviously, that's going to happen.
It's, it makes it kind of like, oh, it's just kind of what you do on Ethereum.
I think the only difference, yeah, there's, there's some nuanced difference.
But, um, no, it's cool.
Yeah, just to expand on that a bit, the way that collections are working now for at least
most of the sites out there is there's one big GitHub repo that, like, just, it's fully
webbed to, I think Ordinal's Wallet controls it.
And someone, like, you kind of submit your collection with all the different inscriptions
that are under it, um, and then, like, a title and, like, a icon for your collection.
And then that's what pretty much everyone is pulling from in order to show, like, group
these together as a collection.
But there has been a lot of talks about, like, later down the line implementing a parent-child
kind of functionality where you could have a parent inscription that then has 10,000 children
inscriptions, which are all part of that original collection.
Um, and that way it will all be on-chain.
Um, and obviously, yeah, there's a ton of more functionality you could do with that.
But right now collections are kind of, yeah, like, very webbed too.
It's not as good as, as, as, it's not in a great place.
And it definitely could be better.
And that's something that I'm sure will be improved on soon.
Yeah, unfortunately, the ORD team, you know, it's pretty inundated right now.
Like, two of the main developers are students, and they're literally at university right now.
I want to pull them out of school, out of their master's, and get them working on ORD full-time
and start getting on this stuff.
And that's why I've been trying to kind of raise money for the team.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's kind of bottleneck now.
And I think, you know, over the conference in Miami, there were a lot of conversations
about, you know, collection provenance and, and kind of what we need to push forward.
The truth is, you know, everything, just like Bitcoin, if no one did anything, it'd be fine
to keep using.
But there are definitely some improvements that can be made.
And, uh, things are definitely getting pushed back.
And it's, it's hard to know what is a priority.
I mean, you look at the, the cursed inscriptions, you know, this is, this has kind of been ongoing
for months now.
So, yeah, and kind of related to that, it's, it's pretty cool.
Cause if you look at some of the earlier inscriptions, like sub 100 K, there are a few
like things that look clearly like collections that just haven't been officially marked as
a collection yet.
So I don't know whether it's the founders just kind of waiting for when they want to
launch it, but there are like, I've seen at least two or three that look like fairly
substantial size collections that are just kind of sitting under the radar until they're
going to be launched.
I mean, we've seen this playing out in Ethereum too, right?
Um, where like early on, it was all about like on chain and provenance and stuff like
that.
And then as the, as the market grew, we saw, um, many different, different ways play out
or technologies or protocols built on top.
So I imagine the same thing will happen here.
I mean, double A, you see all these order note OGs in here.
Don't interrupt them.
Double A.
Say your Ethereum ass right there.
Um, I want to hear from Jake.
Just kidding.
Double A.
Don't get all emotional on us.
Let's fucking go.
Ribbit.
Ribbit, ribbit, ribbit, ribbit.
Dude, I'm here to give you your fucking flowers.
Um, like one of the fucking based hosts who's actually, uh, really curious about Ordinal
and actually wants to learn instead of calling us up.
And when we talk about it, booting us off and calling us frog tarts.
Uh, this is fucking dope.
I'd love to see this shit happen.
Uh, and I need more of this.
So I'm here to just show some love and show some support and, uh, love what you guys are
doing.
Ribbit.
Yo, just cause you are a part of the ribbit squad, you get a pass cause normally the flowers
are at the bottom right corner, but no, thank you.
I genuinely am curious.
Uh, I genuinely want to make more Bitcoin.
Um, and this looks lit.
So let's go.
Um, Ben, take it away.
Ben, take it away.
Let's go.
Uh, yeah, uh, I was seeing some of the previous posts on Ordinal and stuff.
And one of the things that people pointed out as a competitive edge over ETH, uh, ERC
20s and whatsoever is the fact that you cannot get rugged by smart contract and all of that.
Um, Oh, double A one second.
Just don't get me off, bro.
Uh, but yes, the point I wanted to make is that there are some developments right now,
uh, quote unquote, trying to bring smart contracts to BTC, um, by, for instance, these
developments by a punk 3,700 and order.
Yes.
And other initiatives.
Like I just wanted to get a feel by the community members.
How do you guys look at these developments?
Are you bullish, bearish?
Why?
I'm, I'm super bullish.
Even though I think something's a bad idea, I'm bullish that people are trying it.
And I want to see more experimentation and failure on Bitcoin because there have been
a lot of, uh, block space Karens out there as, uh, Eric wall calls them where people on
Bitcoin have been telling people like what they can do with their Bitcoin.
You can only hodl or, you know, you can only buy coffee with lightning.
And it's like, no, like we, you know, if we want to be successful, this is a process
of discovery.
Like, you know, even Satoshi, look at the early days.
He had, he didn't know what the use case, the initial use cases were going to be along
the way, along the road to the vision of becoming like a, a global digital currency.
And there's going to be many stepping stones for how we figure out like how to onboard
people to Bitcoin in order for that to happen.
And I, I don't think that Ethereum and Bitcoin, I mean, our, our enemies, I think that they
are frenemies for real.
I think they are, they're co-operators.
We need competition in the market.
We need alternatives because it drives innovation.
If we only have one chain ruling them all, then there's going to be no innovation.
That's like a, you know, like it's a good thing for Bitcoin.
There's Ethereum.
It's a good thing for Ethereum.
There's Solana.
Um, and you know, more options for users leads to a specialization, I think in different
use cases.
And so, you know, well, I think like, like Bitcoin is not going to be the best for everything.
Like Ethereum is not going to be the best for everything either.
Like there's use cases that, um, are a limitation of the design that are intentional.
You know, there's no perfect technology.
There's only trade-offs.
And so I love to see people on Bitcoin just like trying things.
Um, I think there's going to be like a hundred or more L2s designs tried, um, in the, in
the coming year.
Um, I'm seeing a lot, a lot of different ones.
Of course, um, it's worth noting that there've been a few that have been around for a long
time, like, uh, rootstock, RSK, liquid, and also stacks, which are, um, side chain
designs that have different, uh, bridges that you, that, um, have different, uh, connections
to Bitcoin that give them different security properties.
So like RSK is merge mind, for example, um, stacks, records, uh, hash of all their data
in Bitcoin blocks.
And, um, we're also going to see, you know, I mean, Ethereum and Bitcoin are side chains
of each other as well.
Like, um, you know, there's going to be people making decentralized bridges from Bitcoin to
Ethereum.
Like, I think that this, we're going to a multi-chain ecosystem.
I don't think it'll be as multi-chain as some people think.
I think there'll be like maybe five, like really big ones, but like five really big
ones is better than, than only one, uh, one blockchain.
And this is a fundamental change in technology that has so many different applications.
And so the more like in venture capital, like it's a power law distribution, the earth, like
the earlier you are, the more investments you need to make to find that one winner that's
going to pay for all the rest by 10 X.
So, you know, any typical venture capital portfolio, it's like a, a well-known rule that
like you make 10 investments and you know, three are going to completely fail.
Uh, three are going to break even, three are going to maybe generate a small return and
one's going to pay for everybody else, uh, in the return.
So we need the same thing in this space where people need to be, uh, given encouragement and
not discouraged from doing stupid stuff.
And like, that doesn't mean you have to change the Bitcoin base protocol because we're finding
ways to create things like ordinals and, and BRC twenties without changing the base protocol.
And so, you know, Bitcoin can still keep that thing that makes it great.
That doesn't mean we can't build tons of different applications on top of it.
I mean, there's already like two different approaches to, to lightning as well.
There's a product, a project called Fediment.
There's also a project called ARK, which just launched the other day.
And we're going to see like a hundred of these probably in the, um, in the next year.
So I think it's super, super exciting.
Um, and I think it will be like, you know, lightning is not a smart contract platform.
It's a payment, it's a payments network and they will have taproot assets, which allow
you to exchange, um, like stable coins and other fungible assets, but it still doesn't
have the properties of, uh, a blockchain because it's a peer to peer network.
So there's no like global ledger in lightning.
It's all peer to peer smart contracts.
Like I could have a smart contract direct with profits, but I can't have a smart contract
with profits that, that can then be used, you know, combined with other smart contracts.
Cause there's no like global database.
There's still going to be great use cases for it, but it'll be different.
And I think that these differences, um, are, are important, are, are a good thing.
Like you don't want to have, you know, a hundred different, uh, platforms doing the exact same
thing.
You want to have, you know, a hundred platforms trying different things and a few of them are
going to find a new use case.
And then that, uh, is built off of the Bitcoin base layer or, you know, even with Ethereum,
with L2s, you know, like you can have, people are debating about like, uh, are the rollups
even going to work?
Like maybe we need sharding on, uh, Ethereum L1 to scale instead of the rollups.
Like even the L2 scalability for Ethereum is still very early days and it's even more
early for Bitcoin.
I love your take.
I love how you emphasize the fact that there needs to be a friendly competition, but at
the same time, cooperation happening between the developers on all chains, because like
at the end of the day, each blockchain will be better at a specific use case.
So, um, definitely bullish on that.
Like my, my second question, you kind of hinted at that a little bit, but it's like in regards
to the scalability, like there is a lot of transactions happening right now.
This is super bullish, like for the ecosystem and especially for miners, because they don't
have to capitulate, uh, and many of them probably turn on their machines and all of
that.
So that's all great.
But at the same time, the network, it's somewhat struggling, uh, at times to handle all these
transactions or at least struggling in the perspective that people used to pay very low
amounts to get transactions done.
I think there was a report a couple of weeks ago that there was like 400,000 transactions
to be confirmed and that it would take a week, yada, yada, yada.
People hate change.
We get that.
But, uh, is the community looking into scalability solutions?
Like the reason why I'm asking about that is because I assume that would imply changing
something on the L1 and that doesn't change, doesn't happen often.
And even when it happens, it takes a huge time before being rolled out because people
want to make sure it doesn't bring any vulnerabilities, right?
So how are you guys planning to scale this big influx of transaction happening on chain
or you guys are just not going to tackle that for now?
At least I can jump in here real quick.
Um, yeah, so, I mean, transactions are still getting confirmed at the same time.
Um, I think what you're, you're talking about the transactions that were in the mempool, the,
you know, the users of the network use the wrong fee.
The fee environment changed, right?
Demand went up for the block space, supply and demand.
And, um, if you want your transaction confirmed in the next block, you a hundred percent can
do that.
You know, you just have to put up, you know, put up more fee.
So I think everything's working properly.
And I feel like we've, you know, belabored this a lot over the past month.
And this ETH went through these growing pains, um, during the NFT bull market in 2020, 2021,
where GUE spiked and, you know, people are saying the network was unusable and you need
L2s.
But as far as, from where I'm standing, you know, if we want global adoption, there's 200
million people that own Bitcoin around there.
There's eight, eight billion people on the planet.
I mean, if demand just ticks up a little bit, you know, this, this problem is going to happen
and solutions are going to be built around it.
Solutions on Ethereum are, you know, moving high frequency stuff to layer twos.
I do expect that to happen.
And we're seeing this kind of L2 race, you know, there's all these different competitors
for Bitcoin, there's lightning network, RGB, you know, there's stacks, there's, there's
all kinds of stuff.
So when people say it's like people's transactions aren't getting confirmed and stuff, it's just,
it's just not accurate.
You know, they're just using yesterday's fee rate and they clearly don't want their
transaction confirmed.
So yeah, everything's working as, as it was intended.
Yeah, I'll, I'll add to that.
You know, scalability is nothing, is something that I never think about or care about personally,
because as a, as a VC, as an investor, you know, I've spent a decade in like the web
two space and I've never seen a startup that failed because of lack of scalability.
Um, it's almost always, I'm sure there are some, but you know, 99.99, maybe 9% of the
time it's lack of demand.
And so I think that we're in a space, uh, uh, an arena with the space right now where
we need to create more demand.
Um, scalability is a very well defined problem.
And it's kind of like a problem where the more, like the more resources you put, uh,
towards it, you know, for R and D, um, like engineers are very good at optimizing code
and making things scale.
And it's a very, you know, concrete and well-defined process for the most part, but generating demand
is a very abstract and complicated and uncertain, uh, job to do.
And so, you know, when I, when I look at Bitcoin, um, you know, in 2018 in the block size wars,
there was a consensus in the ecosystem because Bitcoin split off into two different forks.
First, it forked into Bitcoin cash and then it can work from, again, from Bitcoin, Bitcoin
cash, I think forked from Bitcoin cash to Bitcoin, uh, Satoshi's vision BSV with like, uh, I forget
Craig Wright, right.
The guy who claims to be Satoshi, um, and it's like suing everybody.
Um, you know, those chains have like bigger blocks.
They have like trying complete smart contracts.
They have like other, they have a lot of different functionality that Bitcoin base chain
doesn't have because the idea from the, from that day, uh, until now, and still is to scale
in layers.
So to find ways to, um, you know, interoperate with other blockchains where it won't be as
decentralized as Bitcoin, but it can inherit some of the security from Bitcoin and, you
know, people can focus the base layer on very high value transactions because there's
always a trade-off between decentralization and scalability.
The reason that is, is because decentralization is based on like how, how many computers can
actually run, uh, nodes in the network.
And so if you're using really old computers, which that would, that would actually mat,
uh, maximize decentralization, but then those really old computers are going to be very slow.
And so, you know, people have always been saying like, oh, I can run Bitcoin node on Raspberry
People were running Bitcoin nodes on Raspberry Pi until ordinals and BRC20 came around because
they don't have enough RAM to support the size of the mempool.
But that's like the idea is that like, Hey, you can run, uh, this network on like a, on
like a Raspberry Pi with like an SSD attached to it versus if you go all the way over to
Solana, like the, all the nodes are running data centers.
And in fact, you know, I can't confirm this, but I've been told there are like some data
centers, which are not fast enough to run Solana, like in, you know, in Asia, for example.
Um, so any Solana maxis want to correct me, feel free to, but the general idea is that
the requirements for running a Bitcoin node are much lower and less, uh, less expensive
than running an Ethereum node.
And running an Ethereum node is less expensive than running a Solana node because those different
chains have chosen a different corner of the blockchain trilemma.
Um, and that's actually a good thing.
Like if you want, if you want to be successful, like the thing you want to do is pick one of
those corners and like go as far into the corners you can to dial up those trade-offs.
Uh, because you know, you, if, if like a six minute abs is like, I'm sorry, if seven minute
abs is like the most popular video, uh, you like in your pitches, like I'm going to create
six minute abs.
But that's not really enough to like move people, um, uh, away from that.
Um, you need to like, um, be as different as possible, have as much contrast between what
you're doing and the other options so that you will be the only solution for specific
use cases.
And, you know, that is essentially the definition of product market fit is being like the only,
uh, solution with no alternatives to solve a specific problem that has a large enough
market.
And so, um, scalability is, is, uh, you know, that's not what Bitcoin is going to do.
Uh, and I also think it's not what it needs to do.
Cause I think we're still a long way away from, um, even needing, uh, scalability.
Like if things, if the users get so much that like the demand becomes so great that like everything
is like grinding to a standstill, like that's, that's awesome.
And actually that's going to lead to tons of venture capitalists coming in and being like,
how can I invest in a team that's going to create, uh, a very scalable, like L2 to this?
Um, and so, you know, if you try to like build scalability before you have the demand,
um, usually, usually that, usually that's the wrong order of operations.
Um, you know, I always like to say like scalability engineers never have a problem with scale,
never build something as a problem with scalability because they, uh, don't have any users.
And so when you're an engineer, like, uh, like, and you see this in like companies,
like the, if you ask the designer, what the most important criteria for being successful
is, they'll say design.
If you ask the marketing person, what the most important criteria for being successful
is, they'll say marketing.
If you ask the engineer, what the most important criteria for being successful is, they'll say
engineering.
And so when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail, a nail.
And there have been, you know, uh, years and years of people's lives wasted on chasing like
the mirage of scalability, not in, not just in crypto and in blockchain, but in the web
to space for like, I've seen it for like a decade.
So no, I love that.
The alpha, the alpha is crazy.
Ben, hold on.
You see these hands bullish.
Go ahead, brother.
Yeah.
I want to piggyback off of that.
All right.
So I have a question.
Name coin hype, no demand counterpart hype, no demand.
What the hell is the difference now?
There's hype.
Where is there going to be demand?
This has been going on for 10 years.
People act like inscriptions are the newest bees knees.
I mean, Bitcoin devs have been doing this for the last 10 plus years.
Right.
So what is it?
The difference now, crypto Twitter and like back in 2011, when name coin forked from Bitcoin
and tried to do this, there was no, you know, crypto Twitter around.
Like I'm trying to, I'm trying, this is what I'm trying to wrap my head around.
Right.
Because we're in a tech knowledgeable world.
Right.
We're in a world built on tech.
People want tech and tech needs to be scalable.
Right.
You cannot do that with Bitcoin.
Right.
And with these quote unquote BRC 20s, correct me if I'm wrong.
Technically, you could only create a BRC 20 with what?
A hundred million tokens.
Right.
Because I think just what?
A hundred million Satoshis per Bitcoin.
So you could only have one Satoshi as technically a token.
So like you're capped there trying to make a token.
Right.
You're capped on the amount of kilobytes and megabytes you can upload per block.
And you're just capped on so many things that matter.
So I'm trying to figure out what's the difference between now in Counterparty and Namecoin that
there's a difference because like Namecoin, everything I'm seeing right now is the same
shit Namecoin did.
It didn't last.
Then Counterparty came around with three, four years later, they tried to do what Namecoin
did except a little better.
It didn't last because they couldn't do anything.
They reached the cap.
So now it's like this Ordinal's thing, which has been around for years, is just being hyped
now.
Where's the demand going to continue to come from when people realize, oh shit, all I can
do is inscribe this to the blockchain.
Whoop-dee-fucking-doe.
What do I do now?
You know?
So that's where I'm kind of having trouble with this.
Yo, Bullish, you faded, didn't you, dude?
No, I made a shit out of it.
No, I came up here just to say my boy is now the bearish Ordinal's fader.
I made a lot of money on work.
I did.
But when it first came out, now I could care less to get into it.
I made my money.
This is healthy, ladies and gentlemen.
This is healthy.
I'll say this.
Actually, this couldn't have happened before the Taproot upgrade.
Yeah, there have been things like Satoshi.
No, it has been going on for a long time.
Years ago, you could color your Bitcoin.
You could literally make your Bitcoin a color.
You could make it blue, whatever it is.
This has been going on for a long time.
You need to do some research on Bitcoin.
Colored coins, yeah.
Okay.
Ordinal's is a different kind of colored coin.
But it still has been done.
That's my point.
What's the difference?
So Bullish.
You seem to be struggling with why people care about this.
You know, it's a free market.
Like, I can't answer why they care.
But you seem to be struggling with the fact that it's getting so much attention.
And I think the demand is going to continue.
When you hear Michael Saylor talk about it, the applications, you know, BRC20s.
I don't know, man.
I think you said you made some money off ordinals in the beginning, and then you just thought it was a fad and it was just going to die.
And now people are still using it, right?
I mean, what's fad?
Because I really don't see ordinals, like, what's it doing better than right now?
Yeah, I can add some color.
I mean, for counterparty, like, the NFTs were not on-chain.
In fact, Stamps is the first counterparty protocol where the files are fully on-chain using Opperturn.
So if you look at the old counterparty, like, NFTs.
Bro, fuck NFTs.
I'm talking about building tech.
Stop.
Everybody wants to bring the NFT discussion up.
I could give a shit about NFTs.
There's 1,700 blockchains you can buy NFTs on.
Tech.
That's where things blow up and make you money.
I've made a shitload of money in the tech with Ethereum.
How am I going to make money going forward in Bitcoin off of an inscribed fucking concert ticket from 1993?
Like, I want to know.
Damn, 93.
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to answer that.
Just let me finish.
So, like, one of my mentors when I became an entrepreneur is a venture capitalist.
And he said that the same thing as being too early is being wrong, right?
Thomas Edison, you know, made 9,999 light bulbs, and the 10,000th one was the one that worked, right?
He failed that many times.
Of course, there's going to be failures along the way.
And with Ordinals, the timing was right.
The technology was right.
It had product market fit.
It's very, very different from ERC-721.
It's, like, a very, very high contrast change.
And as Billy alluded to, you also couldn't do this before the taproot upgrade.
And so going forward, you know, one of the reasons why I have become very bullish on this is because Ordinals is not a single technology or single product.
It's a paradigm, a new paradigm of how people can actually build successful products on Bitcoin.
And that's why we've seen BRC20 also take off because it took the same paradigm.
In fact, the first, before BRC20, there were the .sats names.
And they're actually different than Ordinals because they're not inscribed to a Satoshi.
They are inscribed for trading specifically the BRC20s.
But the individual balance of the BRC20s, you can actually have any balance you want for BRC20.
And it's not capped to 100 million because it's just recording data in the block space of the inscriptions.
And so the new paradigm for Ordinals is this idea of having what I've been calling smart contracts implemented as node software as opposed to on-chain logic.
And so the ORD client, the ORD nodes, are essentially a very narrow and very specific form of a smart contract that tracks ordinal theory and where the inscriptions live on which UTXOs.
And with BRC20, people created – they used the same ORD nodes, which is, in hindsight, probably a smart strategy.
But it was allowed it to – they created an alternative indexer.
And right now, that is a centralization risk.
But the smaller that you can define the logic – so, for example, with Ordinals, it uses – the only thing it uses the nodes for are the ORD theory.
Like, the UTXOs are part of Bitcoin.
The trading is using partially signed Bitcoin transactions.
And it works, like, with Bitcoin script.
So it has a very high – while it's essentially a protocol, or you could even consider Ordinals a kind of L2, it has a very high degree of L1-ness, as I call it.
And so when you're able to create indexers that have a very low risk for disagreement and have a low need for social coordination,
you can actually get, like, the same value for the end users without all the functionality that you have on Ethereum.
And the thesis for Bitcoin is that it is the largest network effect of users.
It is the most decentralized network and has the highest amount of liquidity.
Like, what I say to people is, you know, Bitcoin – and I don't mean this really like it's just kind of a troll and a joke,
but Bitcoin is doing to Ethereum what Twitter did to Clubhouse.
Like, if you use Twitter, we use it every day.
I hosted Twitter twice yesterday.
I got rugged because I forgot to update my Twitter app, right?
And I've been rugged so many times on Twitter, the emojis don't even work.
Like, I keep seeing tweets that are deleted, but they're not deleted.
Like, Twitter is a fucking mess of a product with ridiculous technical debt.
And Clubhouse is, like, way better as a product.
You have more people on the stage.
There's more functionality, you know, better performance.
But it doesn't matter because the network effect of Twitter is so overwhelming
that they were able to come to market with a lower quality product,
and people were already here, and now Twitter Spaces is taking over the game.
Dude, the problem with that comparison is both Clubhouse and Twitter have a use case.
What is the use case for – this is – see, no Ordinals Maxie can explain this to me.
They just keep going into the technicals about the layer.
You just asked about the technology.
You literally asked me, what is the technology?
There is – what does that do for me?
Tell me what that does for me.
I have $100 million for an event.
If you ask the question, I'll answer it.
No, because you're doing what every Ordinals person does.
You avoid the question.
You asked me what the technology was.
You asked me what the technology was.
Okay, excuse me.
I'm going to tune in here.
What the hell is the use case for Ordinals?
Okay, someone who was clueless.
Oh, there's a little too much going on.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Well, let's finish your thought.
No, my thought is like – look, I'm not against Ordinals.
I'm just – I'm trying to be the guy that's bringing facts to the table instead of these people just nabbing in people's ears.
Bottom line is there's no fucking use case for Ordinals.
There is nothing Ordinals is good for except inscribing something on the blockchain, having immutability, and that's it.
There is nothing else outside of that that it can do.
Yet, yet, it can't do it now.
I don't know if it's coming in the future.
But right now, what's the pitch?
Oh, immutability.
That's what I'm saying.
Right now, there is no use case for Ordinals at all, period, except for if you get into the right one, you might have a good store value until someone decides they want their money and start dumping on it, just like an NFT floor price, right?
So like what's the use case?
I'm still confused about it because there isn't one, and every time I ask the question, it's like this technical talk about layer three.
No, there's no use case.
I can't take my NFT and go like log into a website with it, right?
You can.
You can.
Yeah, you can.
When?
Show me.
When?
Show me.
Right now.
Hold on.
I want to hear Vivid.
Literally.
Here's your question.
I want to hear from Vivid.
Go ahead, Vivid.
No, so I just wanted to add to this and like maybe have Trevor like nod to it as well.
But like, you know, you're presenting a lot of problems all at once.
So like ask one question at a time.
And Bullish, I love you.
You're an amazing trader, but you just got to slow down a little bit.
So like when it comes to like scalability, there are still a lot of things that are being explored.
And Trevor, I don't know if you can like, you know, elaborate on this, but like there's so many ideas behind like.
So it's immutable, like 100% immutable on chain, right?
So like you can wrap Bitcoin assets that are on chain and bring them to other protocols to improve on scalability.
And like there are so many other ways.
So I don't know if there's a difference between doing that and then like what Lightning and Stacks are doing.
But there are other protocols that you can wrap Bitcoin assets that are on chain, completely immutable and improve on scalability and so many other things.
So I don't know if anybody wants to dive into that, but like there's a lot of solutions here.
It's not just like all bullshit.
I don't understand how that would help me.
What would that do for me?
What do you what do you need help with?
Do you understand it needs a physical use case?
If it's just something cool that can stay in the blockchain, what's what is the point of that?
What's the point of that?
There's nothing.
Are you saying that bullish because it's more of like we can't onboard other like the outside world?
Yeah, there's going to be you can't mass onboard with that, which means you're not going to get masses to it.
It's going to be for a even nicher market than NFTs.
It'll be like a point zero zero fraction of the niche market.
NFTs are like it's so niche that like you would have to like be around people like Trevor or Billy to to be a part of it.
Like I just don't see it being something because like I said, it's been tried, dude.
Namecoin failed.
Counterparty failed.
And then now we have ordinals coming into play like they're repeating what Namecoin and Counterparty did with a little bit more technology and knowledge behind it.
But it hasn't worked in the last 10 plus years.
I don't understand how it's going to work now.
Like like Bitcoin was built as a store of value.
Now we're just totally going against the whole narrative of Bitcoin and we're literally taking its store of value away and we're trying to put this.
Let it let it let it let it be let it be a store of value and also so many other things.
Like why?
Why is that wrong?
You know what I mean?
Like when we even evaluate the dollar, the yen, it's it's too gold.
But does gold have a use case besides store of value?
But we still use it for so many other things.
So so why is that an issue?
Because people like the people in the listeners right now, 90 percent of this space is going to have no fucking idea or ever think about doing what you guys are doing.
Right.
But yeah, but nobody, nobody in the world, nobody in the world understands the technology behind like debit cards.
Most but people still use debit cards.
Bro, that is the worst comparison you could have ever just brought up.
That's stupid.
That was dumb.
Bro, there are millions of there are millions of of tech around the world where people don't understand them, but they still use them.
So why does somebody have to understand the technological like aspects of Bitcoin and it's and it's like true use case that you're trying to like find somewhere that when they don't when they don't need to like if somebody is looking to play a game and find scalability.
But but but but things are immutable on Bitcoin.
They don't care whether it's on Bitcoin or it's on Solana or it's on lightning or stacks.
It's just it's just what the what the user is looking to do for it.
So if the end all ultimate goal is like like if you refer back to money, it is gold.
Gold is the standard.
Then look at Bitcoin as the standard.
But so many things can come from it.
Let me ask the question.
You launch a 10K project tomorrow on Bitcoin.
Would it be able to do a board if Yacht Club did as a business?
Yes or no?
Which which part of the entire aspect of board at Yacht Club on Ethereum.
Could you build and scale a business like board at Yacht Club did if it was on Bitcoin?
So wait, you're talking about the answer is no.
Hold on a second.
Hold on a second.
Well, the answer is that you could do everything except for the game, which, again, I think
maybe you're talking specifically about gaming.
No, I'm talking about a cap.
Bitcoin has a cap.
All right.
There you know how when you walk upstairs and get to the top of the stairs and you're
on the second floor and you can't keep going up.
That's Bitcoin.
Right.
You guys are walking up the stairs and then you're going to get to the top and you're
not going to be able to go anywhere else.
That's what I'm trying to explain here.
Things that have caps on them come and go.
Right.
Again, name, coin, counterparty, everything that you guys are talking about right now
was talked about 10 years ago and tried and it was not successful then.
I don't understand how it's going to be successful now because scalability is, you know, you're
talking about VC.
I do a lot of VC funding myself.
I wouldn't I don't invest in anything that is not scalable because demand is just as
as good as hype.
When the hype dies, demand dies.
But if you can scale out of demand and hype and you have a way to get into another demand
and hype, then you can continuously bring new products to the table and continue a business.
Right.
If you can't do that on the Bitcoin blockchain and you're peaked at a certain spot you can
go to, how do you get over that spot?
How do you do it?
Yeah, I'm like, are you asking about scalability?
I mean, I disagree with like some of the presuppositions of your of your logic.
I mean, the fact that counterparty and name coin, et cetera, failed.
I mean, there's reasons for why those failed.
We could have a long discussion about why those failed just because things that failed
before doesn't mean that something isn't going to succeed in the future.
They failed because they were not scalable.
That's why they failed.
That's not why they failed.
That's not why they failed at all.
That is a that is categorically false.
It is not.
They could not build what they wanted to build.
So it failed.
That usually means it's not scalable.
They both failed from lack of demand and from lack of retention.
And so, OK, there's two different things.
How are you going to keep demand up for the same shit name coin and counterparty tried
except now you call in the ordinal?
How are you going to hold on?
Hold on.
I think I'm getting Travis now.
You're basically saying for the secondary buyers, where's the value for them?
Is that what you're asking?
No, what I'm trying to say is Trevor just said name coin failed because of lack of demand.
Counterparty failed because of lack of demand.
Name coin and counterparty are the same shit as ordinals, right?
So if there was two to 0 for 2 now, you got 0 for 2, right?
They tried two times to do what you guys are doing again in 2023.
How are you going to get over the hump they couldn't get over, which is the demand?
Yeah, so the most important thing for any layer one blockchain is developers.
So we talk about like what demand you need at the end of the day.
What does everything revolve around?
Of course, you need users and liquidity.
You need developers.
It's a chicken and egg problem.
And chicken and egg problems are typically solved by what I call gazelle and lions,
where you have one side of the market that can attract the other side of the market.
And so in this equation, like, you know, bringing the gazelle to the safana,
the lions come and go hunting.
Dating apps, like other two-sided marketplaces, they all work very similar.
And so in this space, it comes down to developers.
And so because ordinals is not just a specific type of asset,
but a new paradigm of how applications can be built on Bitcoin,
we've seen the developer base go from like, you know, zero on ordinals
to full-time thousands of people building applications.
We have new apps launching every single week.
And so that's really what I look at to determine,
hey, is something going to have longevity to it,
is following where the developers are going,
talking to them, understanding why they're interested in building on it,
and making sure that the reasons that they're interested in building on it
actually have merit.
And that's obviously a judgment call, depending on who you are.
It's qualitative data that you have to make sense of yourself
with previous experience.
And so the fact that I see thousands of developers coming
and building on ordinals and all these new use cases
because it's a fundamental different paradigm,
not only for building on Bitcoin in the past,
like no one has tried this paradigm before,
because Counterparty, again, used the opera turn.
Here we're talking about the inscription space.
The opera turn has 80 bytes of available storage, 80 bytes, okay?
Not one kilobyte, 80 bytes, okay?
In the inscription space, we have hundreds of kilobytes,
at a minimum, up to four megabytes.
You can build way new different stuff when you have 100x or 1,000x
the amount of available room to put data in.
And it also has a discount.
Now, op return is four times more expensive
than putting data in the inscription witness.
And so, again, these are minor details,
but what I'm saying is look at the developers.
If you see lots of developers coming in excited about it,
if you see smart people going there,
and that continues over time to where every single day
that that continues, again, we're about to hit 10 million inscriptions here,
you know, like nine months ahead of what we expected from day one,
and if you see that pace of change continue,
then every day that that continues,
the probability of being a fad goes down.
So you'll never have 100% chance if something's not a fad.
Anything could be a fad.
Anything could fail.
Like 99% of things in our lives are out of our control.
However, if you see something continue to sustain
and grow over a long enough time period,
the odds of being fad go down and down and down.
Yeah, but what you're not understanding is, like I said,
there's a cap, bro.
And majority of the devs...
What is the cap?
Four megabytes.
What is the cap?
Tell me what you can do with four megabytes.
I fundamentally disagree with that.
Tell me what you...
I want...
All right, hold on.
You can do a lot with four megabytes.
Explain to me something that can change the fucking world in four megabytes.
Yeah, so you could create an uncensorable version of GitHub
using a client-side JavaScript library that connects to the blockchain,
and then you can record code like a tornado cash client.
Okay, listeners, do the listeners know what that is,
and would you ever use it?
Hands up.
Do you know what that is?
Would you ever use it?
All right, so you're talking to 0.01% of people.
It doesn't matter.
You only...
It matters for adoption, bro.
Exactly what I was explaining with name-coining.
The deed to your house in a country outside of the U.S. could be worth a lot.
Anything you can build on Bitcoin, you can also build on Ethereum, and vice versa.
The point is that there are trade-offs and there are ergonomics,
and in some cases, the app would be better designed using Bitcoin
as opposed to Ethereum or blockchain.
That's just the reality.
Any technology can do anything you want it to do,
but it's much easier and has better ergonomics
depending on the tool set that you use.
The reality is things that have limitations don't go far, bro.
Everything has limitations in life.
Everything has limitations.
Ethereum has limitations as well.
The point is that, again, are those limitations a problem right now?
In my opinion, no, they're not.
Will they be in the future?
Yes.
Are there solutions to go beyond those limitations?
Yes, there are many, and there will be hundreds of them
introduced in the next year as per my prediction.
The only way you get past limitations
if you spend an astronomical amount of money
to buy out 30, 40, 50 blocks.
Like, not the average everyday job.
No, dude, no, dude.
Do you not understand how, like, layer twos work?
Yeah, I know how layers two works.
Great.
So we can build a layer two on Bitcoin.
Well, guess what?
And that will solve the problem.
You're going against the whole fucking thing
of inscribing to Bitcoin.
No, we're not.
No, we're not.
Again, inscriptions are a separation
between assets and smart contracts.
If you want to hold your billion dollars worth of assets,
then you probably want to hold it in a place
that's very decentralized.
And so there will be the ability to move these assets
to other chains, including Ethereum,
over different types of bridges
that have different security properties to them.
And there will be some that are built
that only work with Bitcoin.
And there already are those that are built
that only work with Bitcoin.
And it is a different way of looking at
how we're building the space.
On Ethereum, every asset aside from Ethereum
has a smart contract.
It allows incredible flexibility.
Not everybody wants that.
Some people want less flexibility.
If you have an Android phone,
you can do anything you want with it.
You can open it up.
You can program it.
You can run different versions of it on.
Apple devices are much more locked down.
You can't even, there's no even any other app store
for Apple.
Again, there are different strategies and trade-offs here.
Some of them are going to be great for some use cases
and others will not be.
And that's a great thing about having alternatives.
I think like, this is Bitcoin.
This is not, you know, some new layer one.
This is the most users, the most liquidity,
a ton of developers have been building over the years.
And it's a green space for venture capitalists
and developers who want upside
to have an asymmetric opportunity.
Whoever builds like the next breakthrough app on Bitcoin
is going to be a very successful business.
That's just a fact.
Because if you can attract that liquidity,
you can get Michael Saylor to, you know,
invest his, you know, billions of dollars in Bitcoin
into your app because he's never going to use Ethereum.
He's never going to use other platforms.
And there is 600 billion in liquidity
that is on Bitcoin that can be used for DeFi,
can be used for borrowing and lending,
can be used for buying digital assets of all kinds.
Like until Bitcoin goes to zero,
like there's no, that's value.
That's value for developers and it's probably right now
an asymmetric opportunity for those people
who are willing to take the risk.
Again, there's risk involved,
but risk is a good thing because the more risk,
the more potential reward.
Yeah, so here's the thing.
You don't need to be a developer on these other blockchains.
You can be Joe Schmo that Googles how to do shit.
You need to be a developer on Bitcoin
to do anything substantial that matters.
And then even at that point,
again, you have limitations.
I'm telling you a year from now,
I swear to God,
I wasn't around for Namecoin,
but I was around for the counterparty argument.
And I said that shit wasn't going to last.
And people argue with me,
they were blue in their fucking face,
said I was an idiot,
I was a moron,
Bitcoin's going to be so much better,
it's going to be the fucking shit,
and then a year and a half later,
you never heard counterparty again.
I'm not saying it's different this time
or it's not different,
but all I'm saying is you're going outside of the realm
of what Bitcoin was made for.
Bitcoin was made as a store of value
not to build tech on.
That's the reason why there's limitations on it.
I mean, I disagree.
I mean, first of all-
Of course you do,
because you're on ordinals.
Of course you do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I disagree with your presuppositions.
So I disagree.
First of all, again,
timing is always the most important factor
in doing anything.
Like, literally,
the number one factor
in doing anything in this world
in startups is timing.
It's the number one factor
that matters the most.
If you're too early,
guess what?
You're wrong, okay?
Like, no one was it,
like, counterparty was way ahead of its time, okay?
And there were drawbacks
in using counterparty
that ordinals has overcome.
People do not want to point the files
to centralized servers, right?
That's why people didn't use it.
And there's even like a tagline
in the counterparty ecosystem
that the art is the token.
The reason they say the art is the token
is because a lot of the art is gone
because it was like on a server
and the art is no longer there.
And so, you know,
for documents that you,
for files that you want to be immutable,
again, you said it before,
there's no better immutability
than on Bitcoin.
And that addresses a certain subset
of use cases
and people who want that.
You know, Michael Saylor said,
if my last will and testament
is going to transfer
a billion dollars from me to you,
you know,
you probably want that to be immutable
and you probably don't want that
in IPFS, right?
And so the point is,
I think you're also wrong
about some of the things
like you need to be a developer
to do this.
Like there have been plenty,
there's plenty of clients
and front ends and apps.
There were no apps three months ago.
Okay.
There's hundreds of apps today,
four months later.
Okay.
And there's more coming.
And so, again,
when you see the pace of change
and developers coming in
at that accelerated rate,
a subpar technology like Twitter
can eventually become
the best technology
and become a better market leader
in Twitter spaces
as opposed to Clubhouse
because it can attract resources,
it can attract developers,
and eventually subpar technology
will become the best technology
if it has enough momentum behind it.
And the developers coming to Bitcoin
are the oxygen for the fire.
Otherwise, if they weren't coming in,
then the fire would fade out
and it would die.
And that's similar
to what happened with Counterparty.
Again, there's only a few core devs there.
I love Counterparty.
I'm not talking shit about Counterparty.
I would love to see the core devs
like for Counterparty,
create a new version of Counterparty.
There's a lot of cool features
that you can do on that.
Someone maybe even will for Counterparty
and create, you know,
Counterparty 2 or something like that.
But Counterparty did a couple things wrong.
They launched the XCP token
and they burned all the tokens
so they had no capital to do anything.
The original founders left
and there's only a few developers left.
With Bitcoin ordinals,
the number of developers building on it
is going up every single day.
And it's already at a critical mass
to where, in my opinion, it's sustainable.
Now, that's a judgment call.
You know, again,
that's what this game is about
is that judgment calls
are how people make money
because they have experience
and they're willing to make asymmetric bets.
I'm obviously making the bet on ordinals.
I do like Ethereum.
I like Solana.
I like everything else.
But I just think that
being early to something,
you know, I wasn't early to Ethereum.
Had I been,
I meant that'd be great.
I'd probably be retired now.
But I'm trying to be early
in what I think is
from a upside perspective
and a risk perspective,
the risk is as low as possible
and the upside is as high as possible.
And I think that that's
building in with this new paradigm
on Bitcoin
that we have seen
from empirical evidence
work with ordinals
and BRC20s, et cetera.
BRC20s, you know,
there's still some issues
and higher risk than ordinals.
But, you know,
I mean, the ordinals
are not going to go away.
They're literally on Bitcoin forever.
So, yeah, those are my thoughts.
I think, like,
people should be skeptical.
Like, people should be skeptical.
And if you're building, like, a gaming,
a web through gaming thing,
a AAA game,
don't build it on ordinals.
That wouldn't make any sense.
You have to focus on
what it's good for
based on the mechanics.
And I do think that, like,
gaming will bring a ton of users
into the space.
But with Bitcoin, again,
it's looking for, you know,
store of value, as you said.
This whole space
is actually store of value.
NFTs are store of value.
Ordinals are store of value.
BRC20s are store of value.
ERC20s are store of value.
They provide different type
of investment profiles
that allow you as a trader
to maximize your profits
and store of value.
And so ordinals and BRC20s
are doubling down
on what Bitcoin's use case is.
The whole idea of payments,
like, go back to 2017, 2018,
Bitcoin Cash forked from Bitcoin
because the community did not agree
that payments was the use case.
That's why it's literally
called Bitcoin Cash.
They said the blocks are too small,
the transaction fees
are going to be too expensive
because we can't buy our coffee
with Bitcoin.
Bitcoin, okay?
That's not what Bitcoin is for.
And in fact,
that's probably not going to work
until people hold
the majority of their wealth
in the crypto space
because, again,
it's a two-sided market.
People who want to pay for things
and people who want to sell things.
In that two-sided market,
the people who want to buy things
are the gazelle.
The people who want to sell things
are the lions.
And so as soon as, like,
people hold a significant amount
of their wealth in Bitcoin,
merchant adoption
will naturally happen
and until that happens,
it's not going to happen.
So this idea of, like,
Bitcoin is a payments network,
I respect and admire people
who are making that happen.
There's a lot of tools to do that.
It's not something
I'm personally investing in
because my thesis
is that store value comes first
and then payments comes.
Just, like,
look at the most successful
payments apps
over the last decade.
PayPal Mobile
failed and struggled
for many years.
Venmo's failed
and struggled for many years.
WeChat Pay, okay?
First, it was a social network.
They onboarded
the entire country.
WeChat Pay came out.
Boom.
The most advanced
payments solution
anyone ever seen at the time.
Look at Apple Pay, okay?
Apple had to reach
mass adoption
with their phones
and then they could have
payments on top.
So that's my thesis.
I could be wrong.
Apple Pay also uses
blockchain technology
to send payments
and receive payments.
That's super cool.
So, I mean...
But...
Yo, only in Web 3 Exposed
will you gonna have
these nice, heated,
passionate conversations, man.
Man, y'all going crazy,
but, yo, guys,
there's a lot of people
requesting and shit,
you feel me?
So, let's get to these hands, man.
People have their hands up
for fucking, like,
an hour and shit.
Yo, Ewok, I see you, boy.
What's up, my dude?
Yo, I wanna...
I can maybe, like,
bring in some
good conversation
tangential to this.
Trevor, I wanna talk, like,
offline about
version control stuff
because that's, like,
what I got really stucked on
at the beginning,
like, the first week of Ordinals.
It's, like, I inscribed
kind of just, like,
a perfect concept
just, like,
threw something at the wall.
Let me post it up here.
But, yeah, like,
I think the biggest use case
that, like,
no one has really even, like,
scratched the surface on
is, like,
HTML inscriptions
and the fact that, like,
every single HTML inscription
or inscription,
for that matter,
are connected to each other.
Like, it's different than ETH
where, like,
you have collections
of JPEGs.
Like,
you can actually, like,
recurse between inscriptions
and have different inscriptions
talk to each other
in HTML.
So, like,
you're saying, like,
tornado cache.
Like,
one of the biggest problems
on ETH,
like, yeah,
we have a decentralized backend,
but the government
can take down the website.
And, like,
now we have a new paradigm
to build websites
that are immutable.
You can't take them down.
So, like,
what I really want to, like,
spearhead and, like,
get people to do
is, like,
build libraries on Bitcoin
that we can pull
into inscriptions
and we can start creating
these, like,
very immersive apps
that are, like,
uncensorable.
And we have, like,
version control
and a way to, like,
know, like,
what's the current version
you need to be running.
Things like that.
Yeah, I love that idea.
Again, I love that idea.
I think, again,
like,
very minimal
JavaScript frameworks
and CSS frameworks
are going to become
more valuable
because people are going
to need to develop
simpler apps
that can fit
in the inscription space.
I mean,
you can develop
a JavaScript app
in 20 kilobytes.
Like,
if you follow the space at all,
there are
client-side apps
that are only 20 kilobytes.
It's very hard to do
because JavaScript
has become very bloated
over the years.
Like,
people just install
libraries that have
the most functionality possible.
Speed of development
is very fast.
And, you know,
that's good in a Web2 space
where server,
you know,
you can have a centralized server
that's very fast
and you don't have
any limitations on it.
But if you want
to be uncensorable,
again,
I wouldn't make a GitHub
that, like,
is for Web2 apps.
That's not going to work.
You want to make
a GitHub for casinos.
You want to make
a GitHub for Tornado Cache.
You want to make
a GitHub for
all the things
that people are going
to want to take down.
And, you know,
you can agree with that
or disagree with that
from an ethical perspective.
And those conversations
are worth having.
But the reality is,
like,
the genie is out of the bottle.
And so,
you know,
this stuff is going
to have to happen
or this stuff will happen
because people can make money
doing it.
Just like the first
biggest use case
on Bitcoin
was Silk Road.
And just like,
you know,
you know,
I knew many people
in 2013 used Silk Road
and they were the people
who were evangelizing Bitcoin
because it was,
you could do that with it.
If you look at,
like,
different governments,
like,
the U.S.
previously held
the most Bitcoin
of any single entity
because they seized,
like,
the Bitcoin FBI.
Other countries,
like North Korea,
you know,
hacked Axie Infinity.
They have some of the biggest,
like,
bags of Ethereum.
I'm not saying that
to be,
like,
a diss or comparison
or whatever,
you can dislike
both governments.
But the point is
that new things
that weren't possible before
that are a 10x improvement
and you need a 10x improvement
to be a disruptive innovation
at least,
are possible
and there are big markets,
billions of dollar markets
that people can build
this stuff on.
And so,
for the first time
we're seeing venture capitalists,
like,
in Ethereum last year
and the Web3 space at large,
last year there was 25 billion
invested in startup companies.
Guess how much
was invested
in Bitcoin startups?
Like,
less than 100 million.
Okay?
It's night and day difference
and it is,
now that people are seeing
a new paradigm
has opened up,
the culture has changed,
developers are pouring in,
venture capitalists
like myself
are pouring in.
And so,
you know,
having the ability
to be a part of,
you know,
claiming new ground,
you know,
like the settlers
from,
you know,
Europe to America
is a big opportunity
and it's not without risk
and there could be something
that could replace
the Ornals protocol,
there could be something
that could replace
the BRC20 protocol,
but either way,
I can guarantee you
I'm going to invest
in both of them.
You know,
I'm going to invest
in every single thing
that comes out
following this paradigm
because the demand
has been insane
for Bitcoin,
for the applications
that are built,
for Ornals.
I'm building cryptoslam.io
right now.
Bitcoin is the number two
by market volume
of all the blockchains.
If Bitcoin just reaches
50%,
if like 50%
of Bitcoiners
participate
in NFTs
or in Ordinals
and 100%
of Ethereans
participate in NFTs,
then they will be
the same amount
of market cap
because Bitcoin
is 2x
Ethereum's market cap.
again,
there's massive upside,
there's a lot of risk,
but if you compare
the risk-reward profile,
I think it's quite favorable
and I think that's why
we're seeing developers
pouring in,
which I think is,
again,
the oxygen for the fire
that separates between
a fad and a trend
in the market.
And so,
as long as developers
are still coming in,
this is going to continue.
And as long as VCs
still keep coming in,
this is going to continue.
And people are going
to come up with things
that we are not even
capable of thinking of today.
My favorite quote
from Clay Christensen,
the author of
The Innovator's Dilemma,
which is like the seminal book
on innovation,
he said,
the market application
of disruptive technologies
historically was not known
at the time of their introduction.
And furthermore,
the market applications
are unknowable.
we're not going to know
what this thing can do,
but I guarantee you
the thousands of developers
that are coming in
are going to figure it out.
999 out of 1,000
are going to
not create a unicorn.
A portion are going to create
successful businesses,
a portion are going to create
businesses that generate returns,
and there's going to be
a few gigantic winners.
And so,
I'm just trying to be
in that one winner.
That's all I'm trying to do.
I think you have to follow me,
Trevor,
so I can talk to you
about this off the line.
You handled yourself well,
Trevor.
Eli,
give me a second.
I'm going to get to these hands
because they're giving me anxiety.
Brad,
I hope your take is good.
Go ahead.
Hey,
thanks.
You know,
I don't,
first I would say that
narratives are meant
to be destroyed by markets.
And,
you know,
in 1996,
I'm going to age myself,
I built one of the first
SaaS companies,
and everyone said
it was insane to think
that applications
were going to be able
to function
on the web
and in HTML.
but guess what?
Guess where we are today?
This idea
that this limited amount
of storage space
makes it impossible
for anything to be done
or that this narrative
of Bitcoin as storage
is going to stay around
is just ridiculous.
The idea that
two failed projects
somehow means
a market can't work
is also ludicrous.
Everything has its time.
Everything has its cycle.
I'm going to give you
an example
of why that proposition
is insane.
My partners and I
are working on
a compute engine,
it already exists,
and all of the applications
run off JSON files.
And all of those JSON files
can be stored
on the Bitcoin blockchain
and there could be
an app store
to pull those apps down.
The compute engine
is decentralized.
So those are the kinds
of models
that are going to come
out of this.
And the flow
of developers in
and the pent-up demand
for functionality
on Bitcoin
means that this actually
will be a success.
The money,
the developers,
and the desire
for something
to happen here
that's more than
just storing shit
is going to drive
it forward.
Thank you for that
take, sir.
Everybody put their
hand down
because a smart guy
started talking.
Yalo,
did you want to add?
I kind of just wanted
to go back
to the Bull's point
about tech making you money
and how the tech
has to be there.
In crypto
and Web3,
as stupid as it sounds,
we have a lot of
DGens that are,
you know,
they're not even really
aware of the technology
and they're more just
into the marketing side
and what the hype is.
I mean,
Doge and Shiba
had no utility
until today.
People can say
they have utility,
but they don't.
And people are still
preaching at the top
of their lungs.
Doge,
Doge,
Shiba,
Shiba.
Even Pepe,
like last month,
we saw what happened.
Like,
what utility,
what tech...
Whoa,
whoa,
hey,
hey,
slow down.
I'm bullish on Pepe.
I'm just saying,
though,
like the narrative
drove the price up,
not the tech or anything.
like,
I think that doesn't
really work in Web3
to only say,
like,
the tech is what
drives prices up
because there are
a lot of really
good protocols
and,
you know,
they're not even
mentioned in spaces
because they're
not the hype.
I just don't think
that argument really
works well in Web3
to be honest
because,
you know,
I love good technology
but it's a market
full of DJs
whether we like
to admit it or not.
they drive the narrative
more than the tech
does a lot of times.
Yeah,
but narrative
is die out,
bro.
Just like SHIB,
just like DOGE.
It's always a fad,
man.
Everything's a fad.
I think the sooner
people can understand
that,
the more money
they'll make.
That's why I got
a bunch of people
holding a Pepe bag.
Also,
Bullish Trader,
we'll dump that
D-God on your head.
Don't fucking get it
twisted.
Zero,
go ahead.
You know,
Bullish,
I'm actually very thankful
for most of your takes there.
Like,
and I'll say which ones
I agree with the most
is like,
you got to caution people
and you got to throw
some critique
in FUD
very early.
You know,
even though you're at risk
and when I say at risk
it's like,
you know,
Web3 Twitter
is super weird.
Like,
you say anything
that sounds like FUD
and you'll have
the whole collection
after you
or the whole chain.
you do take a lot of risks
in saying what you're saying
but so it's brave,
right?
What you're protecting
people against
when you're saying like,
hey,
wait,
let's take a double look
at this,
I'm not so sure,
is that there are people
listening right now
who are willing
to like throw
their life savings
on anything
people say in spaces
or on Twitter
and that's not right
and that's not fair
because you're not saying bye.
Like,
Trevor is not saying
put your 100% cash into it
but people can interpret it
in weird ways
and it's just not right.
it's always good to come in
with a little bit of FUD
and just be like,
hey,
I don't think this is going to go,
I don't think this is going to grow
and so what I tell people,
the reason why I'm excited
about the ordinals
in BRC20
is just that
I say to people,
it's like,
put a little bit of percentage in.
Like,
you don't,
like,
I just made a post
about percentages
of like portfolio,
right?
And I'm like,
hey,
put everything in cash right now
and maybe you want to put 1%
in ordinals
or whatever,
right?
I don't think
anybody should put 100%
in anything.
I think you've got to be like
spread out,
first of all,
and it's to get in early.
If you don't get in early,
you lose math.
If you don't get in early,
like,
you don't get in early.
I'll give you an option,
if you have that or not.
Obviously,
you don't get toenced.
You have to move across.
You don't get there.
I need to go,
don't do.
You don't hold you down,
they'll get in early.
I don't get high,
or anything.
I know if you're just not in there.
I know a beat.
You want to do
if you're not down,
you get in early.
This is a thing.
