just bear with us we're getting some our speakers all set up and we'll start
hey everyone thanks for waiting we're just waiting for
a couple speakers that are a little bit late in the meanwhile if you could
actually post the space on Twitter would like to get as many listeners as
possible and like I said before we will start shortly please stay tuned
seven six five four three two one
all right we are getting started finally thank you for waiting this is Adam
Cling CEO and founder of fixed gaming we're the creator of crypto fights it's
a 1 vs 1 fighting strategy game based on dungeons and dragons dice mechanics
we're also the creators of the fixed gateway where we can actually bring web
2 gaming to web 3 and I am actually going to start introducing our speakers
and we can kind of get started so let's see we have synergy land would you like
to go ahead and do an intro yeah of course thank you so much for having us
it's our pleasure to be here the second time we are in your spaces and I hope
to be here many many more times I'm a GC rod I'm the community manager at
cingy land also help with partnerships and marketing cingy land is an action
RPG with the inspirations in Diablo and Avian online we've been building for a
bit over two years and we will actually soon have our land sale and manage
release coming next week so things have been a bit busier than usual and a bit
more chaotic on the good side and we're excited for that awesome thank you very
much get so welcome back would you like to do a quick intro hey guys pleasure to
be coming back here thank you so much for having us again my name is no baro
and I'm looking after the global communications and business development
over at Gensokishi which for those of you who haven't checked us out is a 15
year old 3d MMORPG based on polygon so make sure to check us out thank you
thank you and let's see let's do nitro league would you like to do an intro yes
GM everyone my name is Travis over at nitro league nitro league if you are not
familiar with us we are a racing game we are live right now and with an early
release you can download the game from our website you can get it on game swift
the the game launcher there and we've got multiplayer and single-player races
along with tournaments that we have each month so yeah that's a little bit about
us we're on polygon cardano and aetherium right now so yeah thanks for
having us great thank you spicy capital please introduce yourself hey what's up
man thanks for having us here this is Tripsy Baker behind the account CMO here
at spicy capital also known as SC group your VC fund in the crypto space really
focused on layer one and layer twos different design decentralized
applications and anyone that's doing anything really innovative in space and
once we invest we also supply marketing support as well to our partners we don't
just want to dump money into a project we also want to actually work with the
project so yeah man great to be here thanks for having us as a guest and
really looking forward to the conversation great I always admire VC
is because they they put money into the system and we would not be most of us
would not be here I should say if it wasn't for that funding so thank you for
for being here with us cyber leet I want to do a quick intro hey thank you I'm
Jeffrey Monnis co-founder of cyber leet a little bit about us we're a massive
social application with competitive features for gamers embedded with an AI
anti-cheat technology and a biometric player verification we started this
journey to stop plague of cheating and online games and creating a level play
and field for all great thank you and Sam S a.m. please introduce yourself hey
guys thanks for having me back Sam with Blackpool so we're basically a
collective of gamers gaming aficionados we share all sort of good stuff like
perks and deals and and yeah basically we're playing games at the highest level
things like so rare obviously in big time thanks awesome awesome all right so
let's kick this off so our discussion today is around really the difference
between desktop mobile and I'm actually gonna add in consoles so we have kind of
many different distribution systems you can say maybe the device layer we also
have the the way that people can actually play these games so if you
think of Steam Google Play iOS there's many different ways to do that and some
would call those welled gardens they're kind of like their own ecosystem the
same way Xbox and the PlayStation operates and I really wanted to kind of
dive into this landscape because there's actually I think been some evolution over
the last couple of years with web 3 if everyone remembers you know I would say
maybe 2020 to 2022 I think it probably dominated more on the web-based side in
web 3 especially more desktop I think there was a little bit of mobile but
they were essentially web-based games and I'm kind of channeling ax the
infinity and I think we're in there entering like a new phase where there's
a lot more mobile and now they're starting to be some console penetration
as well as the distribution systems of you know Epic and Steam and so on so I
have actually some clips here that I wanted to play to actually start to
think about these kind of in more detail so my first one is really the kind of
the impact of fragmentation on the mobile game development so I'm gonna
play this clip and if you have a response just feel free to jump in and I
want to get this kicking so here goes the fragmentation see if you're making a
game for PlayStation 5 you can build the game for ps5 you can look at all the
components available the technologies it supports and make the absolute best
looking game possible that can take advantage of all of them yeah sure you
might also make a version for ps4 and maybe a PC port too but because there's
such few platforms each version of the game is its own distinct development
project that's optimized for that platform apart from you cyberpunk but
you can't optimize like that when there's a thousand possible different
devices literally that people could be using like there are with phones and so
what this means is not just that you have to cater to the lowest common
denominator the weakest phone hardware on the market but also that you can't
take advantage of the strengths of anyone's hardware like for example the
snapdragon 8 gen 2 chip that basically every top-end Android phone is powered
by right now is an absolute monster it's almost like 15 different super
advanced gaming technologies even the same ray tracing in games just like the
ps5 can but I've been using a phone with a snapdragon 8 gen 2 inside of it and I
can't find one properly ray traced Android game I'm not exaggerating here
0% of Android games at least ones that aren't in beta have ray tracing so that
hat tip to mr. who's the boss on YouTube where I pulled that clip he's basically
saying that and we kind of experience this too is when you develop for one
system on mobile you tend to kind of get hit with the lowest common denominator
mobile device and then they complain and if you don't cater to them and you kind
of cut out a big part of the market so does anyone have any thoughts on kind of
that dynamic with how you develop
nobody has any oh there we go it's like nobody I am not a developer by any means
so I'll start with saying that I'm a potato when it comes to it but just from
my experience working we kind of in the industry you know I think that it's a
tough thing with mobile like it's such a big market at the same time but kind of
you know to the point that your clip was saying how you know to tap into that
market you can't right now just go after the top devices because there's just not
enough out there and the mobile market is so fragmented between different
devices different manufacturers you know different operating systems and
everything else between them that that it can be a lot and the you know I always
say to catch most fish you launch the biggest net and that's kind of where a
lot of these mobile game developers are I feel is they don't want to target just
into a small niche because it's hard enough to get traction for your game as
is and monetization and everything else that goes along with it you know
traditional or web 3 gaming so so you really do want to launch that large net
where you can appeal to the most you know users there are and I think it
definitely plays into like the genres of games that are launched or that are
successfully launched between you know PC or console to mobile and where you
see a lot of those differences because you know hyper casual games are great on
mobile there's other you know games and game genres that are great but they tend
to do better with those you know games that are more shorter attention spans
that you're gonna be playing a shorter burst and stuff like that where you know
some of those like high graphic demanding games or heavy load games and
stuff like that you know it you can't really put out there on all mobiles to
hit those lowest devices like that in the same way yeah I mean when we were
we've been working on crypto fights in kind of the unity game engine and one of
the issues is that when you kind of export for for example like Android you
have with it just with an Android devices you have a huge disparity of
what they can essentially play it with right so they can have kind of the lower
end to the flagship and also the different kind of hardware that's in
that and it actually prevents it actually I guess it kind of hinders
development in a way especially for smaller studios that you know you'll
have these kind of weird bugs at all that'll happen and you know it'll cause
issues whereas like desktop you have a kind of a completely different hardware
and kind of drivers that are working and then with consoles you know yet again
and so that's kind of the whole point of the clip is that the fragmentation of
just within mobile game development is pretty big and then it's really just
kind of the whole industry and I imagine like with web 3 that you know over the
last couple years we've had a lot of I think progress with infrastructure and
services that kind of abstract away a lot of those complexities like for
example like alchemy is one and then we have other ones where like for example
the wallet infrastructure has taken care of I know like Vinley I just talked to
you recently they kind of take care of a lot of that and you know with web 3 I
mean I maybe an open question is is is there any web 3 games that are on
console right now that actually have blockchain integration I don't think so
right like you would connect your wallet with the QR code or something like that
has anyone seen that yeah I haven't seen anything about that yet especially on
console I've seen another event I haven't seen it I don't know if it's
actually out there maybe it is but I've not actually seen it with my own eyes
someone connects on a console with a wallet would that when the day the day
that comes in is gonna be history literally that's gonna be frickin
revolution yeah yeah I mean it's it's right I have like a lot to say on that
one is even that walled garden if they would allow it because I think it
introduces a lot of like compliance questions but but that's kind of the
interesting things and I think you know when we were first you know starting in
this market this is when Google and Apple pretty much everyone was very very
hostile to crypto like you couldn't even advertise it even today we're
having issues with it it's a lot easier less hurdles to go through if any but
you can still kind of do it like we were just trying to even get approved for
advertise on Twitter we we tried to advertise like several years ago under
the previous ownership of Twitter and we got completely banned as like a
financial scam product and I was like no we're just trying to advertise a game
that has crypto and the name of it I mean that's probably the deepest
research they did on their decision and they're just completely hostile at least
now you can kind of actually get a human and and you get it approved if you do
there's some like self certifications and stuff depending on the country and
whatnot but Google and all these places were just extremely hostile just to that
simple fact if you had just really any just terminology that was in a certain
camp you'd like nope sorry can't can't be in our system and and that's kind of
slowly relax which I think is good progress but you know with consoles yeah
I know I think NFL rivals I don't know if they're here yet but I know they're
gonna be one of the speakers and I think I know that's a mobile product but I
think they were doing mythical the company was doing some stuff on the I
believe on the console so I don't know if that was with blankos whatnot but I'm
just I'm curious I only heard that yet I think there's a game called off the
grid I don't know if it's live yet but I remember here that they're coming to
ps5 and Xbox and kind of advertise that they'll like be like the first web 3
game on council I think they're a game on avalanche right okay but I don't know
if they're live or anything or out there yet yeah yeah is there any anyone that
of our speaker list that's kind of more on the engineering side raise your hand
or say something I'm just curious if anyone had to kind of deal with a lot of
these issues it looks like not okay so I have it directly deal with them but I do
have to kind of think about them because of the you know kind of the issues that
you know the different kind of environments play but I think another
kind of I'm just gonna drill down into this I have another clip on the disparity
on kind of these phones and this is from the the same mr. who's the boss so
let me just get that real quick all right here goes I need well on the
flagship and we've gone up by over a million points in performance on the
butter and we barely gone up 70,000 now there is a reason for that the entry
level of the market people just want different things to what flagship users
want like even if every single year companies could put more and more
capable processes in that money is often better spent just sticking with a
processor that's good enough and then spending the extra money operating the
screen quality your the camera quality so and I just kind of further illustrates
the point is that there's just so many different kind of devices and you have
to develop kind of a profile system usually that you know like if they're on
a lower-end device you have to kind of dial down the graphics and and
essentially kind of cater to all these different audiences so with all the
speakers and maybe even the audience if you could actually post to the space you
know is your game on mobile or is it desktop only like like web or is it
using like an actual executable like a web engine like Unity or unreal I'm
just curious what does everybody run is it more mobile focused have you have you
been kind of focusing more on the mobile side yeah so as soon as it lands right
now we are windows only but we are already looking at at releasing a Mac
version hopefully kind of soon it just depends on how busy our devs are but we
have plans to release on Mac as soon as we can make it because we think that's
quite important more nowadays more and more people have Mac and I try to play
games in Mac mainly as long as they are not super high-performance games Mac
computers are not able to run them quite smoothly and then we also want to
release mobile not in our closed future plans just because of overall manpower
and another priorities that we need to focus on first but for sure mobile as
soon as we can deploy some devs on working on that we want to be on those
platforms but but why did you choose to start on desktop first it just makes us
for the kind of game that we are building an action RPG also the experience that our founders
and our team that have mobile marketing is easy game and what do you want to focus on?
robot right now I think your connection might be phasing out a little bit you
basically sound like a robot so can you repeat that try one more time
you're here okay there might be a connection issue with Twitter spaces if
is anyone else having that issue yeah he sounds like a robot to me as well yeah
okay all right we'll come back to you synergy you know I think I'll kind of
answer for ourselves like we targeted mobile because it's just a larger market
in general but like I said you know there's kind of the pros and cons that
you have a larger market but you also have to kind of develop differently and
also you know potentially this kind of goes into kind of the market or the the
user base of web 3 you know where we came mostly from desktop right and then
we kind of chose mobile so there's just different I guess like ways to think
about that you know anybody else have some insight and kind of their
development journey on on why they went the way they did I think I can comment
on this basically in the beginning because we launched on polygon on a
desktop version so it's not a downloadable game you just play in
browser but I think with the demand that we're seeing now and what three gaming
mobile is just such a big thing that especially if you're a game then you
need to ensure that you have the same place as soon as possible so I think it
was probably a few just a few months after we did the closed beta that we
launched both on Apple and Android stores and it's definitely significantly
helped with engagement because especially in countries like the
Philippines and the whole time region mobile gaming is just so so massive so
it's definitely not a market that you would want to miss out on in any way
right now it's kind of our calculus to is we didn't want to miss out on it and
you know we've been planning on doing a desktop for a long time and I'm curious
if anyone's done kind of both to see which is kind of dominated you know is
it more mobile or desktop or is it just a kind of a combination of the two
anybody have any insight on that most projects that we've seen from our side
usually just focus on one and trying to launch on both just because if you're if
you're new to the gaming space especially in a web 3 space obviously the
language is definitely gonna be a barrier you know digital access and
characters people usually call them NFTs in our space and stuff and especially
launching online App Store and Play Store having anything crypto and
blockchain related it's really really really difficult to get you to launch
on there plus I've actually seen and I've actually seen this personally with
games that I've helped advise in the past not spicy but me is shibzi have
helped advise in the past when they go to launch and an Apple or Play Store give
them a week you better be ready to be delayed by like two to three weeks just
because they want to scrutinize it as much as possible before launching on the
App Store and then also on the PC side of things I think it's more of just like
a quality thing just from personal experience when people are launching on
a Windows or a Mac I know obviously the development of both are gonna be
completely different but I've seen people struggle more with the process
when it comes to mobile so if they're gonna go down one of the routes they
just focus that route and then what they do is let's say they're out for a beta
stage they'll wait as long as possible before they even start development on
the PC side of things most games that say yeah we've launched a mobile we're
gonna we're developing our PC side of stuff or our desktop side of stuff they
haven't even started the development stage yet they're still yet to start
that because they're still trying to work out all the kinks on mobile and
then when you have it in reverse on the desktop side of things again they
haven't even started the mobile version I think one of the biggest games I saw I
would say I'd like to say two years ago I think it was two years ago yeah 2022
yeah 2022 I don't know if you guys remember setting arena I don't even know
they're still around right that game kind of blew up really really quick
obviously because of the way you can earn tokens and all that stuff but what
games did which they did as well was if they did launch a mobile the blockchain
element was on PC so you do like your withdrawals you do your trades all that
kind of stuff on on your desktop and you'd actually play the game on your
mobile so it's going to be really cool to see what games come out with in the
future how they're going to launch a mobile how they're going to help the
community understand what's going on and then how they're going to transfer either
from mobile to desktop or from desktop to mobile but I have not seen a game yet
launch both at the same time and if they do launch one the second version doesn't
come out until boy a while down the road yeah that's
actually a really good point I can see why you know when you when you actually
launch usually it's I would say maybe and correct me if I'm wrong spicy but
we're kind of MVP and you know we're going out with our our products as soon
as quick as we can that's decent enough I think games are one of the just really
unfortunate things where you almost have to do more waterfall strategy where you
have to have like a really good first presentation it's almost like a movie
right like the movie has to be good you can't really kind of iterate it after it
comes out but yeah you're trying to launch it and then you get so focused
on making it better and probably iterating fixing bugs and whatnot that
you're kind of stuck on you know either the mobile or the whatever you started
with mobile or desktop that you never really or at least so far you haven't
gotten to launching on other systems and another interesting point you said and I
can actually agree with that if you're on console or desktop you're I think
probably wanting better graphics you're a little bit pickier on the demand of
what the game can do for you now I think there is some really good
games that don't have you know they didn't really kind of present themselves
as like this huge super high def graphic game but I would say most of of that I
think are kind of what get the attention is is having almost that that eye candy
effect for the desktop side which is super super intensive to produce anyways
and then on mobile you wouldn't even be able to use it right you have to almost
downscale you know that's kind of the issues we had is where we had kind of a
pc version that the polygon count was too high and it was causing the lower end
mobile devices to basically just lag and and cut into the the frames per second
fps and then we had to kind of go in there and like figure out what's going
on oh we got a down you know and then so just it creates all of these issues I
think that's a really good point especially from your perspective in the
vc world where it's probably good to focus on almost like a a niche of a
niche market first get good in that and then kind of grow out of that because
you're still trying to achieve you know I would imagine product market fit and
somewhat with the game I think we're still all trying to kind of figure out
what's the best business model on web 3 so having all of his other complexities
can be you know quite daunting to be able to do that's interesting is
anybody have any comments on that before I move into the next topic
okay so I want to go into a kind of a concept where
maybe go a little bit back this is from Justin Swart principal at bitcraft ventures
and he talks about kind of the evolution of the gaming economics it's kind of how
we how the game industry put the products
out in the market and here we go and then platform consoles and hardware
devices came out so you could bring that experience into the home
and the way to monetize that was typically who owned the distribution and
publishing agreements there's big big box retailers were the ones that were I
guess the the sort of choke hold on the
industry and dictated that the $60 game price would make sense to get your
however many hours 50 hours of gameplay so that you could sell all of that up
front to users who had spent all this money
on the console as you say and then sort of paying for game for
that X amount of play time 60 hours of play time
and that model persisted for quite some time even as we moved to
a more digitally native era where you could buy games and download them over
the internet so I like that clip because it's true
you know we had we had basically this upfront cost of you know consoles or if
you're on desktop kind of get all set up for that
where a mobile kind of came along and you could just kind of play
right I think that's kind of interesting with the web 3
side of it that the the console market is a lot smaller
versus kind of the mobile side and I feel like consoles are requiring me
the last place that web 3 will adopt what does
yeah I agree with that especially from the VC point of view
most games are focused just on mobile desktop stuff
but I've actually spoken to people and this is before I even entered the VC
world I actually I've actually spoken to people from Microsoft I've spoken to
people from Sony they are not trying to focus games at a
moment in the web 3 space that are trying to
launch on console and if they are like if you guys saw the backlog of video
games that are going to console it's insane like it's it's stupid
I thought deal flow was a backlog did Microsoft and Sony have had back backlog
from like two years ago three years ago that they still haven't
even like taken a look at because their whole thing is well we have
GTA we know that works we have Red Dead we know that works we
have Halo we have Call of Duty we have FIFA
we know those work you want to bring us a project
that hasn't got PC gamers hasn't got mobile
gamers two of the things that have the most adoption in the world right now for
gaming you haven't proven yourself there yet
and you want to come to console are you insane have you lost your mind
so that's the scope that they're looking at but obviously us as gamers is yeah
man let's go on Xbox let's go on PlayStation
but when you look at it from the from the
the what what is it called from the console point of view
they're thinking you you're crazy you you've actually lost
your marbles first you came to us with NFTs and now you actually want to launch
okay cool you're crazy like I actually spoke to a project I
think about about two months ago and we
were just talking this dialect between each other
having a conversation about their game and like I want to know more about
their journey because I heard about them in the space
and they're really cool people and they literally said they've been in
conversations with Microsoft for the last year and I'm
like what is the what's the point that you're stuck at
and he said they are asking us over and over what is the point
of a digital collectible in your game like what's the point
why is that a thing because Microsoft and all these other guys
their whole thing is okay you're saying that
your assets will be transferable you know on the blockchain and
if the game is deleted it's still going to be there because it's on chain blah blah
their whole thing is listen mate the 15 year olds who play Fortnite
they don't care about that stuff they they they don't care about their
skin being lost of Fortnite their parents are still going to spend
20 30 pound every damn season you think these guys care about this stuff on
Overwatch no they don't because they're still
going to spend this every single time to get this game pass
you didn't care on Call of Duty hell no they don't care on Call of Duty
have you seen the money that people spend on fever they don't care about
this stuff so what is the point of a digital
collectible in your game and again it comes back to the same thing
you're not even on mobile you're not even on desktop you don't even have a
full game on desktop yet you're still alpha and you're coming to
us on xbox and playstation so that is why it's going to take a
long time until we see a conversation that goes public
with this stuff and it's real yeah i think that was actually a really good
point and really insightful um it kind of goes into what is our
value proposition as an industry and you know from what you
said essentially you know we are the um kind of the the underdog that hasn't
proven itself yet uh we don't have the kind of the market
might to force uh their hand yet and i think that's
actually really really interesting because you know we've all said you know
we need kind of the killer game app that will bring in uh you know
millions of users that you know will equate into some amount
of money and uh you know whether it's like a new web
three kind of side distribution system or what i know there's a couple several
projects that are doing that that that route
and and they can say hey you know we have i don't know 500 million a year
uh you know that we can maybe bring to your ecosystem or something like that
then yeah i think that's when they start talking
because they are kind of they're very entrenched they have a you know i guess
billions invested into their ecosystem so it makes a lot of sense why they would
have that perspective um i haven't heard from uh uh
let's see sam you want to chime in cyber elite
not your league you have any thoughts on that yeah sure of course yeah
um basically about i i almost never use the term like web
three gaming or blockchain gaming because to me it's all just gaming and
it's just a tool in the background and it's about
it's up to us to use it in the smart way that interests the the players so
if we go back to you know what is better or where should we put the focus or is
web three is going to go in in in console or something
honestly i'm i tend to agree with the previous speaker sorry i didn't get to
see who was who was speaking but people mostly don't care it's all about
what you do with it so i think an important step that a lot of
games are forgetting is blockchain game design and how
we're actually using that um that tool that technical tool to
actually bring some immersion into the game or
bring some some more interest some more ways
to involve the the players in the games and make it just simply better so
whether it is on mobile mobile is like a huge
chunk of gaming so obviously by extension it'll be mobile that's going to
have more broken blockchain gaming inside because
i mean it's just the biggest place for gaming right now so
it's just different target audience um and it's all about what you do with it
like try to make um to use blockchain in the background
when it makes when it makes sense to do it if it's just cosmetics
as you said uh kids don't care whether uh your your fortmite um
customizable item is is an nfc or not like honestly this is
it's only exciting like i'm just a niche audience right so
make a game where this makes sense and you can have
uh more stakes for the players with uh escrow contracts putting in your
like uh pulling in your your items and your hours of gaming into
into some like high stakes uh free for all where you can
steal each other's loot and things like that and then yeah like at this point
you're you're adding it as an extra element in the gameplay and i think
that's where we should put the focus um two cents basically
yeah oh sorry go ahead oh i was going to say you know like when it comes like
mobile versus desktop too like i think it's important to like know your
audience like we know mobile gamers tend to be older
like like 35 and up where console gamers tend to be
you know desktop gamers tend to be younger
um you know like under that 35 and then at the same time
mobile gamers tend to be uh i don't want to say like a less value
audience but they tend to spend less money
um in mobile gaming where you know per gamer where
desktop gamers are spending more and i don't i think it might be
entry point things you know if you're if you're a desktop gamer you're
you know spending more just on your hardware and your experiences and
everything else that comes with it um and also kind of the quality that
comes along where mobile tends to be a lot more free
to play or uh subscription based you know in-game
kind of purchases is the monetization um through
there so like knowing your audience if you're going to
for uh grabbing users and trying to get those daus or those those monthly
active users and stuff like that like mobile gaming is easy to tap into
if if you're going for like that more higher fidelity
uh higher uh value quality kind of gamer
than desktop but but you need your game to fit
into those markets like you you don't want to take some
low-quality hyper casual game and and try to throw it on desktop thinking
you're going to grab like all the 40 year old moms
if you're going for the 40 year old moms you're you're going to want to build for
uh that audience and where that audience is
um and not trying to create these new markets uh
in that kind of sense yeah that's actually a good point so basically
when you make a game i think who is going to play the game you know what
genre is it in where does that genre play that game
i think it's really interesting uh you know there's for example
there was a game i was playing that was on uh it's on consoles but it's also on
steam and desktop and um i think those could probably have
some overlap um i i think there's like a billion uh
pc gamers and i and you know there's a there's even a
subreddit on uh called pc master race you know because
that's kind of where i got into oh you need the best you know like
nvidia card you know they have the best graphics and
you know kind of a power user type thing and you can like really push
all these games to the limit where um you know console it's it's more
like i just want to be able to play and not have
to worry about all the other stuff which means that you know the the
pc desktop player is kind of a very different maybe more advanced high tech
uh type of player uh where you know like a mobile
casual game like you say i'm just kind of like sitting out waiting for my
daughter to finish you know something and
i just want to play some uh you know match three game or something like that
it's very very very different good point good point um
uh let's see synergy land are you back with us listen you want to check your
yeah yeah okay perfect yeah for 10 minutes
you guys heard me as a robot for like a couple seconds and now for 10 minutes
everyone was a robot for me so it's interesting experience but to add on to
what shelves you were saying earlier i think the only way that you'll be
able to get on uh on uh on consoles and uh for people and
players who actually want to play as they will
will have the whoever does it you'll have to have a successful game before
that either in uh pc or uh or mobile before i don't
think they'll just open open our their arms towards us and
you say oh a new game oh by the way where actually where do i have this and
this i don't think that they'll accept us
like that let's see how how i think it's off the grid that we
said earlier right the one on avex that will be
coming on ps5 and xbox is related easier next year
so let's see how that goes it to be interesting to to make a study
case of them see how successful or not it is and
yeah uh let's see who have we not heard from
um i i think we i guess we've heard oh uh alahandra i see you just uh
gone in the speaker uh i don't think you introduce yourself would you like to
introduce yourself real quickly and if you have any comments on the topic please
go yeah hey guys no thanks for letting me up
um i'm actually the senior community manager at a
company called big grit it's basically wet three meets ai
but uh gaming has always had a special place in my heart
it's been a passion of mine like most of us here for years and years and years
uh and i've been falling like wet three gaming since i guess about 2019 now and
when i first bought into engine token and
started alpha testing back then so whenever i do have free time i'm just
like you know let me alpha test you know metal core shrapnel or
or whatnot um and this is just a really fascinating
conversation mobile versus desktop uh i'm someone that used to be a console
guy but then i also myself got converted i can relate to the pc master
race and that's really all i do um i figure like hey use your pc for
gaming use it for work uh sorry uh as well so
it's just a win-win you know all around um
just you know thinking as as a community guy and marketing
off top of my head you're talking about like certain target audiences
um i think that's what besides wet three gaming still being the
underdog i think what is missing is yes the
target audiences as to you need to know who to go to to
mark your game so if it's a role-playing game you find a sub that's
you know all about role-playing if it's fps you know same
same goes if you know they could be a final fantasy player
you go to them for role for rpgs and role-playing
and then uh you know if it's fps call of duty and battlefield such and such
but i think the other thing is as well is and i'm just speaking for
friends of mine that are maybe in the crypto or just not in the crypto at all
that are web2 gamers um maybe and i don't know if it's
possible maybe the smart way to build a web3 game
would be to allow for the option and versatility of
not making the token or tokenomics the forefront of the game
obviously focus on gameplay but making an option where
a web2 gamer does not necessarily need to participate in token and can just focus
on the game itself because they may automatically still see
it's a scam from the news they've seen about nfts
and it just may rub them the wrong way so maybe providing the option and
versatility for the gamers to choose whether or not
they want to become part of the ecosystem maybe that's that's that's the
way to go um because i have tried years and years
and years to get many of my web2 gamer friends into
whether you're gaming the crypto and you know to reach the throne they just
don't want to be involved they they feel that it could be a rug or a scam
but if it's a game that can just focus on the fun of it and creating those
clans without having to worry about the economic aspect that
you know can maybe like melt not melt their brains but
since this seems to be like an a work task
i think it's important to differentiate those gamers from the web3
dgens yeah it's interesting i actually have a
question for you like when you try to convince your web2 friends um
you said like the first thing i kind of heard what the objection was
oh you know it's like the stigma around the years of
the uh i said what 2020 2022 bull run where
everyone was making money and it was all about making money
and it seems like they saw that and so like i've actually gone on reddit
and i think i did some posts for cryptophiles years ago i was like oh
check it out and like how dare you do that like like you are evil you are a
scam why do you need crypto why not just use a
database like there's just so much hostility
towards web3 and um you know i'm like a one a lot of their arguments
almost seem absent of like factual like on the tech like they really don't
understand the tech and it's like i'm a gamer like i get it i
think there's a lot of other gamers on this space that get it
and why it is the future and we all kind of agree it's the future
but there's just kind of this big blank spot this void
of of uh it's almost like the um like we were thinking about like the killer
out like what is the combination or how do we present
this technology and you're right like when when those years they focused a lot
on the tokens and the economics of it it was because you made a lot of money and
so because of that you got a lot of people
you know it's you know three billion plus gamers so you had a lot of gamers
come in to make money and then when that went away and
then you get you know essentially what's left
and and really the entertainment now you i've heard a lot of theme from these
spaces all that it's needs to be a good game
well it's weird how we went from you know we have this new technology
you can trade stuff digital asset empower gamers with ownership and then
now we need to have better games and so i'm just curious anybody have any
other thoughts i see coco is uh just added as a speaker um coco do
you have any thoughts on this if and also if you could introduce yourself
first yeah thanks crypto fights hi i'm
really a pleasure to be here i'm coco i am chief marketing officer at army of
fortune metaverse um and yeah it's a very interesting
conversation so i'm just catching up um i think i joined when you were talking
about um the hostility of um web 2 and web 3
and then allowing people to kind of play the game
without any necessary interaction to web 3 if they choose and
i think that's a that's a really good point and i think especially with
the way that mobile gaming is set up uh and that's something we can do
in mobile gaming because um the way that you have to build
an app and then the way you download it and the way you sign on is all very
standardized uh depending on the device but
you're not sort of met with the first thing you have to do is some kind of
wallet login so um in our game we allow people to
just play the game and effectively play as much or as little
as they want to go as far as they there's no sort of
block um with uh getting to certain elements of the game
um you don't have to have any crypto or anything like that but
we do offer like a premium side of it um extra sort of
perks for people who want to say interact with the blockchain side of it
um but it's interesting because i think especially given um recent events
around army of fortune metaverse i think when you do um start to integrate web
3 into your company it's not just about the
tech right it's it's yeah you can build a game and you
can have um all the the great innovations in
the back end but also web 3 comes with um a duty
irresponsibility and an interaction with the community a way of doing business
that i think we've never uh seen before um in history and
yeah that's there's there's a lot of challenges around that as well to
um bringing a web 3 game to market and making sure that it's successful
yeah well said uh it is really a good point and i
it's just it's interesting because we started in 2018 with the project but you
know i've been in crypto a long time and it really has evolved and um you know i
was looking uh there's a book called crossing the chasm
which is really it's about how to market new technology to people
and everyone's probably familiar with kind of the the adoption curve right you
have the innovators and then the early adopters
uh which is probably i got in and one of those two but then there's this early
majority and the early majority doesn't care and they don't want to
piecemeal together and experience um because they don't
want to be first like that there's not like an advantage in gaming to be
well i guess there is the people did make millions of dollars and kind of the
token bull runs and whatnot so i guess i take that back there there was an
advantage to understand this stuff and i think it's still going on but the early
majority doesn't care about that stuff you know they're a gamer
they're not an investor they're not they don't kind of care about that they
want entertainment and you know it's a big big market i think
they say it's like 34 percent of the market on according to these graphs
and uh they don't want to log in a wallet because then you they have to
understand what it is why it exists and all that and i think you know with
with desktop and mobile and all that it create and that's really what the last
couple years of uh you know with account abstraction for
example has been about addressing is that we had
realized that there is an issue with onboarding
right and how are we going to do the next billion anything on blockchain
and we have to basically make it more you know easier i would say more web 2
and um and especially kind of these walled gardens um
might not even be allowed which is a whole other discussion right i don't
really typically like that and i think uh they're starting to get
you know lawsuits and whatnot i think on the uh the apple side and
and um whatnot they're trying to kind of challenge
you know being in these wall guards and having a monopoly but um it's really
kind of interesting how this is evolving and i also even thought
um uh progressive web apps you know pwa apps which is basically it's a browser
app but um that that was going to be a big thing but it really never turned out
that way and that's essentially where you can use your browser
as a distribution system which would work on mobile or desktop
and you would be able to basically just say go to this url
and everyone with the phone with a desktop or browser which is everywhere
would be able to play and that was like the utopia uh that i was hoping would
happen but it just it never turned out that way i think we got a lot
more to go on that um but it would kind of
make everything obsolete at that point and everyone would just do that so
um you know that's that's kind of one of the reasons why we
pivoted in uh early last year to be more of a hybrid model
because you know i think we realized that um you know being we were very
purest blockchain and we found that uh you know
when we started to kind of get a sense of that that users don't really care
about a lot of that stuff they they care about kind of the experience
um so you know where we go from here um i think is is going to be very
interesting um let's see i want to call on uh i
jenjo do you have any actually thoughts on that before we go to the next topic
yeah um no there's been a lot of i'm just thinking in my head of all the
narratives have been coming up or you know arguably the upcoming bull run and
besides you know wet three gaming i think you're really right to point out
about the zero um oh my god brain fart right now
yeah the uh the zero knowledge in the proofs right there were the snarks
um because i just feel that you know there is no easy solution to
bring the the uh these web two people on board
but i think if you make it a one click type of deal
or there's less information that they need to
put in on the front end rather than the back end i think that'll also be a
major barrier to remove for the adoption curve um and that
just doesn't only apply to uh to gaming that also applies to
financial apps so you know when i hear about a crypto
app that's building something that works like paypal or zell um but for
crypto i'm saying yeah fantastic phenomenal because i think that's
the the main you know one of the main blockers you know as you said the wall
garden um so and i'm not there no
illusion that this is going to happen during the bull i mean obviously people
are going to be attracted just like the last bull because
you know token go up but aside from the speculators
you know uh i think this is going to be a multi-year period thing where
some projects will do it right others won't um
maybe we'll acquire more education but it's just
understanding the target audience like okay we have
uh let's say i think it was somewhere on i read on x or tour there's a community
of about like of us were three gamers like 180
200 000 people but it's constant echo chambers right we're constantly talking
amongst ourselves and you know this the tokenomics talk
works for us but when we go outside it that
lies therein lies the problem so yeah i think it's just simplifying the
process not putting so much emphasis on the
actual economics itself um and just uh putting all the the techie
stuff if you will the dev stuff uh on the back end you know some gamers just
want to game and play and that's it yeah that actually is interesting because
when i think about kind of product market fit a lot
and you know the thinking of the product market fit was mostly about like
digital ownership right you can actually own it you could trade it you could do a
lot of that stuff and i think it's i don't think we have
the answer yet but i think it's it's kind of yet to be seen like what is
really the next uh kind of the innovation
you know for gaming related to web 3 that'll happen
um so i want to play a little bit of uh some music because we're going to bring
in some more speakers um any current speakers that want to
and we're just going to have a couple of minutes and we're going to continue
All right, so welcome back for segment two on our topic is web3gaming mobile versus desktop.
So we've had a great discussion so far for the first hour where we've gone through the
disparity of kind of the mobile devices and how you know we have kind of low end phones
to flagship phones and how they all work differently even in the web two side and the evolution
of kind of the gaming economics where we kind of all started where it was kind of pay to play
and you would pay you know for the console you would pay for the game and you'd get kind of a
certain amount of enjoyment for it and then kind of go to the next thing and also the fragmentation
of just mobile game development all those hardware differences makes development much harder and so
as we go to segment two we can talk about all those things and more I have actually a couple
of things I actually see Wombat in here and I'm glad you joined our space today because they're
actually a blockchain gaming platform on mobile. I don't know if you have desktop but I want to
actually have you on. Would you like to introduce yourself and tell us more about the platform and
how it relates to mobile versus desktop? Oh absolutely, it would be silly to come to the
Twitter space and just not say anything about this would be. Hello everybody, my name is Olga, I'm
head of continent communications at Spillworks, that's kind of the parent company behind Wombat,
the atomic art marketplace and also Waster social app. We as mentioned we are a gaming platform on
mobile and yes on desktop just had a new desktop release today by the way. We basically have a
community ecosystem of about 4.5 million people now and I suppose because of our kind of disposition
in the user base we are biased towards mobile a little bit but yeah I am very very grateful that
we could join this space and I'm definitely looking forward to this segment because the
first one was really illuminating. And actually a couple more questions for you. When you have
blockchain games in your ecosystem, have you seen kind of different responses from your user base
with regards to the blockchain aspect of it? Do they like it? Do they dislike it? Are they curious?
Like any insight do you have on that? Yeah, so just to give people a little bit of a background
we're a platform that does not discriminate so we have over 150 titles on Wombat but they are both
web 3 and traditional games so to say right. That goes both for desktop and mobile versions of the
app and I can say that for example in the top six apps where we see the most traction from our users
Upland for example this is a web 3 kind of virtual property
management game with a little bit of like collectibles and event arrangement element to that.
This consistently has been one of the most beloved titles in our platform. It goes
neck to neck with stuff that everybody's tired of like Raid Shadow Legends for instance or
I don't know World of Tanks. So the curiosity is definitely there and I mean we are
originally a blockchain web 3 company so we can safely say that we have
always tried to attract people with affinity towards web 3 gaming right so there's a
confirmation bias for that but we can confirm for instance that about 35% of people who come
through us to us that's counting for for instance for a hundred thousand month-of-a-month growth
registered accounts that is. People do interact with web 3. This could be a standalone web 3
gaming title right this could be the rewards that we issue for playtime such as crypto or NFTs and
whatnot but we do see I would say an encouraging percentage of people engaging with the technology
actively. That's very interesting and I think one of the few distribution platforms that are
accepting of web 3 and having kind of the stats to show the exposure of web 3 to people and actually
one of the words that really stood out to me is the curiosity and I was thinking kind of as a gamer
you're right some of these games are really like a rinse and repeat formula they're formulaic
they they kind of get have like no soul and and having kind of almost like the indie studios come
up with a new way to experience gaming sounds like interesting and interesting enough to like try out
a couple of games and kind of you know you hear about web 3 and and all this stuff so that's
actually a really interesting perspective that you have. So thank you. I want to introduce some
of our new speakers here. So Andrew he's a regular but why don't you go ahead and do a quick intro
and give us any thoughts that you have on this topic. Yeah thanks for having me always a pleasure
to be here. Andrew Lubon. Hello I'm not sure would you come out for a second. Can you guys hear me?
No 8-bit it was for Andrew. He was going I'll go to you next though.
Cool yeah so as I was saying Andrew Lubon I was the business development executive hire at
closer.ai where the Google search for NFTs. So for this space what we're excited about
is a lot of the NFTs ideally being used for in-game utility being portable across different
ecosystems. We would probably bet that the majority are going to be mobile but not a particular dog in
that fight. We're just very bullish on the space using these NFTs for those key unlocks and seeing
where the space can evolve. Great thank you. MetaRides would you like to introduce yourself
and give us your thoughts. Yeah for sure so this is Hermey behind the MetaRides PFP CEO of MetaRides.
I like what Andrew just said right like I had this this train of thought and then Andrew threw
me off but the concept of wait and see I think is part of building in this space right like
putting together you know what your vision is and then ultimately you know pivoting not off your
path but pivoting enough to win. I'm anxious to hear this conversation because we're on the asset
side of the build right. We're still building a game we've got a game that's in beta on Steam but
the idea behind MetaRides is it's about the assets and for us it's a you know a road that
we're anxious to go down to see whether it ends up being more about mobile in the end
which we feel like it is going to be more about mobile in the end but I'm anxious to hear. I love
Wombat's just throwing out analytics like it's nothing. I love those types of takes and I just
love you know where we're headed so but Andrew threw me off a little bit I apologize but yeah
I'll get into it a little bit more once we get rolling. Yeah yeah absolutely and I think you know
we we've kind of mirrored that the the digital asset part of that seems to be the one that's
kind of like really sticking you know there you know there was Metaverse and I think that kind
of died out ish I don't know it's not it's not gone but I don't think we're ready for the Metaverse
yet to be honest. We were actually working on an actual protocol level I mean super high tech stuff
but I was like even if we finish what we were trying to do who's going to adopt it and is the
world even ready for it yet and I don't think they are and and then when it comes to games you know
I think like some of the things I think of is god you know like five ten years ago I was playing a
game and I have a say I had a save game I had achievements and I had like just things happen
that wouldn't it be cool if I could still have those and kind of have a collection I mean they
do that with physical things right why can't I do that digital assets? Sorry to interrupt that's
that's the big picture right I think that that's where we're headed I think that's the value of
ownership it's the value of digital identity it's all of that coming together you know I I feel like
the short-term play for us is about the MetaRights racing game you know branching out on console
branching out you know on mobile etc etc but the long-term play is work around the digital assets
make sure that you're you know building that platform that foundation and then as these
MetaRights or virtual worlds start to become a reality you know brands are going to want to
come in and there's going to be different plays in that regard where you've already got the foundation
set and then that's going to be an opportunity for us anyway we're building not just the vehicles
but we're building a network of worlds where you can drive them all of that comes together in a
really cool way and you know to your point yes it's way too early in my opinion to just focus on
virtual world and expecting that to be sustainable at any short-term you know amount of time so I love
what you just said though it is in my opinion about the assets and that's the way that we're
building we're building you know short-term play it's about gaming long-term play it's about gaming
and Metaverse and then ultimately opening up the door from web 2 to web 3 for you know any sort of
brand big or small great thank you salsa valley would you like to introduce yourself and give us
your thoughts yeah hello everyone thank you for having me today here on this space
so my name is julia i'm the co-founder of salsa valley uh this is the game file and entertainment
b2b to see crypto vault based on salsa valley stories the crypto cartoon series about and uh
we merges the web 2 and web 3 so uh we operate like the branded house for salsa valley complete
market and cycle ecosystem products such as uh cartoon series crypto board game uh casual
mobile gamers games cook turn and children with web 3 features with an easy way of transition
for web 2 people into the web 3 world and the metaverse is a long-term goal so um i i guess that
today's topic is very important to understand um how do we engage the people into the crypto vault
and uh of course this is their focus for all of us with you uh to engage the new people
and uh to give them their easy easier ways and interesting ways how to join us and uh as for me
when we are talking about the mobile games uh it means that we can reach their more white audience
because a lot of people are just um using their phones during the days and uh play different uh
casual games uh but the gamers who play the consoles and consoles and desktop versions of the
games uh they are very um like engaged into the games but as for me i guess that they are more
difficult um for us to to reach them because they used to play their games they are they already
used to play great thank you um 8-bit arcade uh please introduce yourself and uh give us your
thoughts yeah hello there thanks for having us my name is russell i'm the founder of 8-bit arcade
we're a web 2.5 or sort of web 2 web 3 sort of gaming platform it's interesting to have uh
one back here because we're doing a very sort of similar sort of space and product and service
really so we have a web-based platform and a mobile app in the works at the moment and today's
uh topic of conversation is really relevant i think um to our space and how it's moving forward
we very much anticipate not necessarily building what we think the end user or the gamers want in
the future of web 3 but more to do with what is it that they need and they're asking for and
although owning your assets is really important and it's a massive selling point for web 3
it's not what people are asking for really at the moment so we we really need to be selling them
or getting the message across of what is it they get actually getting there's an advantage from
being in the web free space and playing games in the web free space and that message just isn't
getting across right now because i think we're looking at it the wrong way around what they're
asking for is basically better value for money when it comes to gaming and a lot of the youngsters
now these days spend a lot of time on social media so mobile gaming obviously is very popular
and over 50 percent of gaming is played on mobile phones now so we're very much focused on that
sector we're also focused on the sector or the markets in the developing nations as well
of players because up to now they haven't had a great deal of exposure to gaming because it's
been out of their price bracket and reached they've not been able to afford desktop computers or
consoles whereas now they can buy a second-hand mobile phone quite easily and actually get access
to games for the first time so we see that as a massive growing sector or market in the future
so we are very concentrated on building sort of games and hosting games on our platform for
for that demographic of customers and certainly being able to plug into social media which is
135 billion dollar market back in 2022 which is only slightly smaller than the gaming sector
as a whole so we're kind of combining the two sectors really and with some novel IP that we're
building into our mobile app which will be really interesting so in effect we will be bringing new
gamers into the web free space without them even knowing that they're actually benefiting from web
free technology yeah and i kind of mirror some of that sentiment about you know i think i think
we're realizing that it needs to really be under the hood and they don't need to really
care about the tech because you know the early like i was saying earlier in the previous segment
the early majority doesn't really care and they don't want to piecemeal together some kind of
experience because because it's advantageous to be first they just it needs to be a better
experience more value for your money like you said so i think that that's a really good point
nfl rivals welcome back why don't you do a quick intro and give us your thoughts on this
hey folks sorry for being way so uh could you hit us with that question again we had
some bugs within week today so i kind of i'll put out that fire but uh yeah so basically we're
talking about kind of the mobile versus desktop and we've had a couple different speakers give
us their perspectives on um really kind of the web 2 gamers and how they kind of first
experience kind of web 3 games whether it's on like a mobile kind of platform or device versus
like desktop um really just you know i'm actually curious because nfl rivals as far as i know is is
mobile first um i don't know if you plan on having a desktop version but there's a reason why you went
desktop first and so maybe if you can give us the insight on that yeah so hey everybody i'm jonathan
i'm the head of community marketing here for nfl rivals at mythical games where we build
blockchain enabled games for the masses so that right there is the keyword we're fully licensed
from the nfl that's american football not the world's game of football helmets and touchdowns
not uh penalty kicks and headers um and nfl players association um yeah we've hit three
million downloads and that is largely due to the fact that we launched on mobile platforms
we've been very fortunate that we will strike uh good relationships with apple and google so
we could be on the app store we could be on google play we're one of the first games to
bring on-chain transactions to a native mobile experience that mobile web a mobile app i mean
and we're definitely the first one to bring secondary into the game um we launched in-game
purchases back in august we've been certainly proving that experience and then i believe in
this month we'll launch the v1 of in-game selling of cards in in the game um so that we're making a
lot of progress now mobile mobile versus uh what do you call it mobile versus desktop uh mythical
we were to win a lesson so rivals is mobile only we will be mobile only um we're not gonna we're
not going to go pc uh we're realizing that ports suck on to our pc uh and the reason why that is
we want to create consistent experience um we're also aiming to get this game into the hands of
millions of players like for us our direct competitor most direct competitors mad and
mobile we are going after the casual nfl football fan who likes to play football games on their phone
and have digital cards um commemorating their favorite players their favorite teams their
favorite games and plays and moments and that that's what we're all about um so you can trade
player cards in the game um now as far as like the broader question of like mobile versus desktop
um previously mythical games launched like this black party on desktop uh which was a huge success
we hit a million downloads we're one of the only three web three games in a million downloads
as of the end of 2022 um it was us axi infinity and i think splinterland or someone else that
had a pc client i can't remember who that third one was um but basically we were in league with
axi infinity um the problem is we now shut that down in favor of a mobile launch because scaling
acquisition on uh on pc games particularly web three games is really expensive so
even though we really monetize um our our player base better than most other casual free-to-play
party games and we were way past industry standards our cost of acquisition was also sky
high i think it was like two to three x the ltv that we could get out of paying users so
out of paying players so it really wasn't panning out which is why we're tilting towards mobile
and we're building more in that in that sphere um so the trade-offs that i see on a personal
basis is mobile is if you want to get a lot of players really quickly uh and you're not too
concerned about kind of the web three-ness of your web three game you're happy with some ownership
you're happy paying 30 to apple google you're happy dealing with their rule sets we were able
to get google to update their policy around entities and mobile games uh we haven't got an
apple to kind of issue official policy yet so everything we do we have to be super careful
uh but pc i think is whether you can if you're a real web three person like you really believe
in those ideals you know a lot more fun and do a lot more stuff there um it's easier to apply
because you don't have you don't have this arbitration process getting between you and
your play base typically interesting interesting uh adam uh the other adam here uh why don't you
go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us your thoughts hello thank you very much it's been a
great conversation so far really pleasure to be here i'm co-founder spark the xyz we're working
with a bunch of games and gaming platforms right now on their payments infrastructure basically
helping games take payments cross-chain any currency onboard new years users really easily
our biggest client at the moment is portal coin but we have a bunch of other great games coming
up too i've also previously co-founded formation games who are developing a fancy football mobile
game called club uh which is entering beta on mobile now um and i'd like to share some thoughts
about our um our dilemma around mobile versus desktop um and this was back in our mvp two years
ago um where we were thinking about this very issue and we ended up going for mobile for all
the reasons people have mentioned like that's where you you dream of acquiring 100 million users
that's where the money is um i think we actually we made a mistake doing that actually for us um
and we we developed we spent six months developing a mobile mvp um tested it with about a thousand
people we had good feedback um and what we found is we'd actually built it on a kind of early stage
startup budget um and we realized that even though we'd built on mobile our platform was not going to
scale to 100 million users um so the game had to go back um into development and it's only just
coming into a closed beta now with a more scale scalable platform um and what i wished we'd have
done actually is prove our rmvp um on desktop um because we were never getting a hundred million
users right and in web 3 you don't even necessarily need them like you can um monetize your game with
10 000 highly highly engaged web 3 um players um and test out what you're trying to do um and then
when you know you've got product market fit that is when i would have invested in the mobile version
of the game so i think we we mixed that up a little bit um but i think uh listening to nfl rivals i
think they were their their approach is absolutely right for them and that they were coming in hot
with um a bigger budget a big nfl license so made sense for them to go straight for mobile but in my
experience kind of bootstrapping a smaller studio uh it was a little bit different yeah that's very
interesting perspective um you know i i think we had kind of a somewhat similar experience where we
we had a desktop first and then we went towards kind of mobile to to kind of really open up uh
you know the system is really to use the app stores as a distribution system we
like one of the funny things we really hated was the update system you know like how do we update
our our pc client and do like version control and all that in force so we had to like build all this
other stuff out and like you said as a smaller studio you have a lot more um basically gotta
invest a lot of resources and kind of getting all that stuff right um and yeah that's very
interesting thank you for um for telling us about that uh burn it dao um please introduce yourself
and uh give us your thoughts hey what's up it's great to be here it's burn it dao as in like a
decentralized organization um so we are the first true native web3 game in the world uh and what
that means is that we are a 100 on chain game meaning we have no oracles no proxy contracts
no delegate contracts no back-end servers of any kind we are not dependent on a front-end interface
we're completely self-contained perpetual autonomous anonymous
permissionless trustless and fully decentralized the reason why i mention all that is kind of
relevant to this conversation so we think about kind of mobile versus desktop very very differently
than i think probably everyone on on this stage we're not targeting gamers we are very deliberately
focused on web3 native people and web3 degens we are focused on people that already have a
metamask and have crypto and understand that that modality and by creating a self-contained smart
contract we're actually the first crypto game that can be played directly from contract meaning
that you don't even really need an interface you can play it off etherscan if you want it
but the idea is to be completely permissionless meaning that you can build your own interface if
you don't like the one that we've provided so what we have provided is a pretty much a static
website where anyone can go and encourage anyone to check it out it's kind of interesting but if
you go to burnettdow.xyz you can see it there's no back-end server calls there's no dependencies
of any kind to any back-end infrastructure it's just a lightweight web wrapper on top of the
smart contract itself it's also designed to be mobile first so you can you know pull it up on
any mobile device and interact with it but what i like about this is it kind of breaks a little bit
of the sort of dichotomy in this paradigm now i will admit very freely that this is not something
that can probably apply to most of the people on this stage it probably wouldn't make sense for
most if any of them but i do think it's interesting to try to you know kind of bend that that curve
a bit in terms of having to make those sort of trade-offs or thinking differently about
kind of your ui ux and how and what you're presenting to the users and presenting your
ui in a much more multimodal i guess fashion but i just think it's interesting and by the way
thanks for having me i think it's a great conversation you know interesting i pulled
up the website and i guess it's curious you know i'm thinking from our side you know monetization
and growth are kind of i think a lot on a lot of the uh you know projects mine is how are we going
to grow and how we're going to make money and and so when you made that decision to really kind of
be a purist and and kind of really cater to the like like you said the web 3d gen um i guess
have you found it uh relatively straightforward easy to uh market to them and and i guess be
like monetization um is the way that you kind of design the game you know and and monetize
like how did that kind of factor into um the project and development and kind of the whole
the whole thing yeah so i mean i guess to answer that question i have to explain a little bit about
how the game works if you don't mind um so what we are is a 100 on-chain squid game
but we've added trading mechanics and of course instant prizes so the way in which you
play burn it down is the contract itself will will create an nft collection every season
and then players will mint these nfts one nft equals essentially one contestant in the game
and then once the collection mints out then the game starts the game itself is played in a series
of timed elimination rounds where players compete to claim their nfts meaning they're safe from
elimination for the remainder of the round and then the contract in the same transaction
will select another unclaimed nft at random and burn it so at the end of every round uh the the
size of the collection is being halved right so like x over two uh at the same time the prize
which is secured in the smart contract from the mint itself uh effectively is collateralizing
those nfts so those nfts are doubling in value for every round they survive now that's important
because in between rounds we introduce a trading mechanic where players can sell their nfts to
other players and of course all of this is permissionless right so you could be playing
as an individual as a group as a guild the clan or whatever we don't take any royalty
on that sale at all and so we really we didn't want to introduce any trading on that friction
or any friction on the mechanic so what that means from the player's perspective is that
let's say that you were playing our smaller game which is a hundred and eighty thousand
dollar prize all of this by the way is denominated in ethereum so the the dollar amounts are kind of
shifting but um you would be able to mint let's say uh four nfts or five nfts for about a hundred
dollars and let's say by round five you had lost one right one had been eliminated you would still
have four you could choose then to sell two of those nfts to another player or whale or anyone
coming into the game later for whatever reason each one of those nfts the floor price the
collateralized value of those nfts would now be not twenty dollars but six hundred and forty
dollars so let's say that you sold two for you know twelve hundred dollars or thirteen hundred
dollars to another player at that point your entry to the game is free you've made twelve
hundred dollars and you still have two opportunities to win a hundred and eighty thousand dollars we
have a second contract by the way that's a much bigger it's a three million dollar prize with a
two hundred dollar nft entry so the idea for us is where you know where how are we monetizing this
and where where are we making our our money we're making it uh off the mint of every single nft going
in uh so we take a 20 cut of that now we use that money primarily for uh operations and maintenance
of the game but a large chunk of is actually going to marketing so the way we're thinking about user
acquisition and marketing to answer your question is and i shouldn't just mention in all this that
we're not vc backed right so this is not uh this has been a very organic process for us
so we're thinking about it like as people mint uh as they join the game they need their friends
to join in order for the game to actually start so in a sense some amount of players are aligning
around that and kind of pulling from the front right like they're encouraging other players to
mint and they don't have to feel bad about it because unlike a typical nft project uh there's
no dumping right the mechanics ensure that that nobody is using anybody is exit liquidity here
in fact if anything larger players or other players are providing entry liquidity so it's
a very positive experience which which we like at the same time we're using the marketing dollars
that are being funded from the mint uh in sort of as the mint progresses to be able to push from
behind right so our intention is to provide marketing support to you know essentially help
the game start and help it mint out of course once the game executes let's say it's the you know
2.5 million dollar contract so you know we would take our 20 percent that is not off the top of
the prize that's already been taken so the prize is is what it is so someone would win let's say 2.5
million dollars or i guess almost three million dollars now once that happens the contract
automatically resets and a new season is started and again this is all happening autonomously so
there's nothing the devs can do we can't influence it it can't be uh rugged it can't be
manipulated it can't be uh altered in any way nobody can touch the prize it is very much a
a code is law um game mechanic in fact the way i would i would suggest for people to think about
it from a game design perspective is we are the first game not to look at integrating blockchain
into a game engine or thinking about how to put a game engine on the blockchain we are the first
game to use the blockchain as the game engine the blockchain itself the blockchain's own mechanics
are our game mechanics so it's been a very different kind of process and you know in terms
of of how do we position this to two gamers what we found is kind of two things they like the trading
mechanic a lot i think they like the fact that we're standing on the first principles of the
blockchain that we are permissionless we are decentralized these are words that get tossed
around a lot but there's not a lot of products that really embrace them right and really hold to
them and by the way this is not to throw any shade on you know web 2.5 games or anyone else's game
i think those games are important i just think it's also important that we have products that
really showcase the capabilities of the blockchain without having to necessarily compromise it in
some way by introducing you know trust or centralization in order to spur user adoption
which is again a noble a noble pursuit but i just feel like there has to be some contrast there
we have to be able to demonstrate to users why web 3 is important as a technology that it's not
just web 2 with extra stuff right well so what i'm curious about though is you mentioned some really
big prize amounts is that's maybe i missed it but is that something that your your project
contributing to that prize kind of the incentives or how do those prizes get so big because i guess
my thought is the the market i feel like it's more the early adopters are kind of in the web 3d gen
and it kind of channels me back to axe infinity pandemic lockdowns economic opportunity
and you know you have these people in other countries like you know what i can make a daily
wage doing this and that alone was really how the user acquisition pipeline happened and
probably there's a lot of other things going on but i think that was the main incentive structure
to you know bring these gamers in it was really like a gimme it was free to them in a way because
of kind of the overall tokenomic structure and and money pumping in and it just kind of
reached this uh word of mouth phase and you know having like a huge you know i don't know
10 million dollars is at stake you know come and learn metamask and or is it really uh you know
we have you know x number of users that have already been kind of trained through the last bull
bull bear market and are kind of waiting uh kind of to hear from this so i think it kind of the
the thesis is um is the kind of the web 3 native uh profile of a user growing and is it growing
because of kind of these these economics right because i i hear i think the big kind of differences
is that we have you know i've been a gamer most of my life and most of kind of gaming was
i don't know this is probably oversimplified but to have fun but there's also challenges
makes you smarter there's a lot of puzzle games or just think like tactical
puzzle just you have to figure like mist if anyone remembers back in the 90s but you know
there's there's a lot there that isn't necessarily tied to kind of this serious economics but one of
the things i said a while ago is maybe the way that we perceive gaming has and will change meaning
uh i gaming for example like uh fantasy sports and all these other types of things that are
entertainment for people but they do involve money and you know some of some of these things
become regulated uh and that maybe web 3 gaming is actually waiting to be kind of thought of as a
uh as a real money maybe more adult gaming experience um that we kind of see like i
was thinking uh there's a lot of games now that have nudity in it right like even ballroom
skate 3 has nudity in it i'm like okay well you know i don't want my i don't know 10 year old
playing it but the uh adult gamer which you know the average age of gamers there there's a
a lot of you know 30 plus year old gamers that probably might want to do that like anyone
like my father would play online poker and i'm like okay well that's a game
but it's more kind of about money and i think that's kind of what draws it in and so i think
that's an interesting perspective and um kind of uh interesting hypothesis about the market about
you know is is kind of that market going to grow enough and maybe you know account abstract is
really just the missing thing is you know getting them in easy money in systems and
money out systems and and uh and then people can kind of interact with these these new ways where
it is around money so um so thank you for your input um so uh let's let's move in anybody have
any other thoughts on that uh before i move on so do you mind if i just just answer your initial
question very quickly about kind of the prize uh because i think it's to your point so so the prize
is coming from the mint so as you're minting an nft right we're taking a payment split uh on that
mint price and we are taking 80 percent of it and keeping it within the contract so we don't have to
put up the prize the prize is getting collateralized by the players as the season mints i also should
mention that we built in a refundable mint technology into the contract natively so if
for whatever reason the season doesn't fully mint out within a certain amount of time
players are able to just automatically and autonomously uh refund themselves uh for 80
percent which is a lot better frankly than most nft projects where you know it's going to a one
or zero uh the other point i make is that we thought deeply about uh you know the mechanics
you're talking about around axi and that's why we wanted to focus on a permissionless system
permissionless means that you can play this as a community right so if you structure your token
omics in in a in a new way and i would argue that what we've done is a new game mode probably the
first innovation in this particular game genre in maybe since roman times more or less it's only
possible because of the advent of blockchain technology and in particular some technology
that was introduced by the merge so you know i think in terms of liquidity and and kind of
player perspectives and mechanics what i would just say at a very high level is we're a game show
right and it's important to your exact point not to think about games super narrowly as video games
that is one kind of game but there are many kinds of games that people play right including you know
monopoly right and chess and you know go and all these different kind of modalities right and so i
think i think you know what i would encourage people is to think more broadly about what do we
mean when we say games right like we're a game of skill we're not a lottery or a raffle we're a
contest and we like to say a burnament but you know the idea being that you can use web3 to enable
new modalities right that haven't really existed before by leaning into the technology thank you
by the way for letting me uh yeah no i i think it's interesting because we we spend a lot of time on
kind of the the pure side and um it really is a a um uh i i don't have to articulate like
you're trading a lot of what people are used to and and uh feel okay with to um you know kind of
betting on the on how the market's going to turn out if i'm understanding correctly you know the uh
so that that's interesting but um but we'll move on um so one of the things uh we can kind of talk
about also is from the kind of the pay to play to the free free to play i'm gonna play a a quick clip
um from alex tap scott nine point partners and uh and then we'll talk about it so here we go until
maybe 10 years ago most people who are playing video games are playing video games on consoles
or pcs and there was sort of like discussion i remember back then um because i used to work in
the investment banking and we we saw clients like this about how gaming is sort of saturated like
the number of people who will spend 600 on a box that they plug into their tv and play you know
with a controller is is going to be capped so i don't know where it's capped but it's probably
capped at like you know a few hundred million people and then what we saw was the rise of
smartphones as a platform for gaming and not and not complex games like world of warcraft or halo
or metal gear solid or whatever but like relatively simple fun easy games that anyone could play
and that led also to the creation of a new kind of business model the free to play model
where like in the console market like you have to spend like hundreds of dollars just to get set up
but in the free to play model it's free to play but then afterwards there's all these ways that
you can monetize right with in-game purchases and and so on and so forth and what was really
interesting about uh the free to play model for gaming was that it actually grew the market
significantly it grew the market in terms of new people who are playing just free to play games
but it actually grew the market for console games too like in gaming more popular and that increased
the size of the pie for everyone and i think about you mentioned now that's segway back into
ownership so with a quite provocative you know the question is will ownership be that killer app
that helps to grow the gaming market even more um that will help to onboard new people
and to also grow the market for gaming as a whole so so that's kind of an interesting question for
all of us is um so that's kind of on the thesis is is the web3 technology going to enable uh this
kind of next evolution in gaming and and kind of what the bernet dale is saying is is that we need
to not think so nearly of what a video game can be or what it should be um and i think that's
that's also an interesting take that um you know i've seen a lot of companies kind of say you know
digital ownership is going to be really the next frontier um but we kind of seem to have a problem
with that and and why are we not kind of growing as we expect to right i mean if we're all gamers
why is this not working and i think um you know over the last couple years i mean just
onboarding has always been an issue but i don't really think that is you know i think the
axi infinity or any of these like really popular games that got it it was because
that there was such a great value but really incentive uh for them to come in there and
and do whatever right to to play it to to trade to flip um and that kind of goes to what i was
saying with the bernet dale is that maybe um that itself is a game right you know i mean if you
think about stock market and and all these other things uh that can be a game for people right but
it's it's using real money so i'd like to hear from some of the speakers we haven't heard from
while um koko uh alejandro any of you would uh would like to go even andrew i haven't heard
from you in a while do you have any thoughts on that yeah i think it's it's just a hard problem
right like as nft search platform we would love for all these nfts to be accessible searchable
and exportable across games but i think it's very difficult to bridge cross chain um there's just
hard problems that the space needs to be that needs to be solved i would love to see more
collaboration between chains and i think sometimes we zoom in too much and get so hyper focused on
our our own use case i think we need to zoom out a bit on occasion and say how can we collaborate
to really take on web 2 which i think is is more the the team we're competing against right also
i see a lot of hands went up um wombat i saw first and then i think uh adam and then 8-bit
so wombat why don't you go first then we'll go to adam 8-bit and then uh meta rights
thank you very much um i do have a few theories about that i'm i'm just gonna go over those real
quick uh first why that not really caught up is that because we are so um basically stuck in our
own mentality and our experiences as i'm talking about in the generational sense i suppose most of
the people present here are millennials right um or gen y we have witnessed the rise and fall
and physical assets when it comes to games so physical copies collectibles and what have you
and now we're basically uh trying to spearhead this mission of bringing the ownership back and
fixing the good things about video games that digital transform like not in a better way
whereas i don't think that gen z for example thinks about it this way and those are the people
who will be paying customers going decades ahead the oldest of them are already 27 20 years old
for them games are about how they communicate this is for them just the same type of a
connective experience as i don't know in personal hangouts or uh texting the group chat it's just
that uh you also do something in the background right uh and they simply do not and cannot
care about this uh they have already kind of risen uh have already kind of grown up with the
the notion of well sadly probably not necessarily being able to own things economically right i'm
talking about houses and cars and whatnot but with all kinds of services that help them connect and
express themselves we're just trying to sell the next paying generation an idea that does not
resonate with them at all um second point why that did not take off because i think we are um
well generally speaking as an industry taking this asset ownership component um very very
seriously right uh that that covers a whole range of things from basically how people are
used to trading being held in games if you go to any merchant in skyrim or whatever this is just
really a matter of a few taps and you genuinely could not care less about what kind of tech is
behind this right um another part of that is uh the fact that we need to be focusing on making
first and foremost engaging experiences in good games simple as that and i am happy to see a
bigger shift towards this notion in both like mobile and uh pc web web3 games but this somehow
still does not come to the forefront of the thought um this is why i think it simply doesn't
didn't catch on because uh we're trying to make it a selling point where uh there is just a very
limited audience within one one and a half generation that will be able to relate to that
thank you uh adam do you still want to go uh because i don't see your hand up anymore
uh sure i will do yeah so just on the on the kind of um i guess the the sort of
financialization element of it i think what web3 gaming becomes will be very very different from
what what we're seeing today um i think web3 gamers are a whole new type of gamer really
like they're basically traders they they exist they can exist outside of the main game experience
and i guess they're not entirely new because this is this is a little bit like a csgo
skin trader right they may not even play csgo at all um and they're involved in that way and i
suspect a small number of people will always be involved in that but for most people that's not
going to be how web3 gaming is i think it's more like yeah hey i i used to play a ton of world of
warcraft and i earned boss loot that probably players today would like because it's og but
it's stuck in my account um so i imagine that's the sort of thing that i'd be able to sell that
it's much sort of softer lower risk behavior um or uh collecting digital items in the same way
people collect night trainers and resell them i think that's kind of more acceptable in games in
the kind of mainstream space the kind of hardcore uh sort of financialization in web3 um a lot of
people consider that the same as sort of like building a casino inside a school it probably
wouldn't be a great idea to put a lot of that stuff in there but it will still have a place
it will just probably regulate it in the same way um gambling is or trading is um and people will
enjoy those experiences um and it's uh it's just it's just going to be different and i think we're
figuring all that out great thank you uh and then i believe matter no 8-bit uh you're up
yeah it's a great little topic i think i mean your assets in the web3 space was a great selling
point but i don't think that's what's necessarily going to bring mass adoption i really believe
it's going to come from a more sociable side of gaming so you know owning your own data and
your identity is a big part of what web3 is going to be all about and um you know currently at the
moment if you sign up to facebook or one of our social media accounts we're just giving away our
identity like it means nothing and uh they throw adverts at us and we earn nothing from it so
you know the future in our space is very much us taking back that identity and that value that
belongs to us and actually us being able to monetize it so i think we'll be able to attract
a lot more players if where there's that financial incentive where they can take back control of their
identity and their data and their assets and actually earn from them and that brings in a
whole different new revenue models that uh haven't necessarily been explored in the traditional sort
of gaming space so i kind of see where that's where it's going to go yeah that's definitely
an interesting topic oh so like that's a show in itself about you know do
people care about privacy like i even hate when my wife posts a picture on me on facebook i'm like
god i got off that platform so long ago because it's just like uh just a data mining operation
and i just i don't want pictures and just information about my life ending up in you
know databases and and whatnot you know what i mean like it's it's just yeah but i feel like
i'm a minority among uh like they don't even consider this yet um and there's data breaches
and all this other stuff like that that that goes on and it's just i don't know it's it's it's weird
it's almost like the status quo and we're trying to kind of fight that and it just seems to repeat
all the time uh meta rides you're up and then alejandro i want you to go after that yeah i
appreciate that twitter doesn't want me to raise my hand today and keep it up um so i you know i
want to give an example i'm actually going to go off topic a bit here but i want to kind of tell a
point i think that you know web2 gamers are going to start to understand the value of ownership
you know through different channels in different ways in different games and then they're going to
start to demand it in our opinion and at that point in time you know the model is going to
change a little bit and it's going to be less about web3 gamers and um you know monetization
and that type of stuff it's going to be more about um again our opinion but there's going
to be a certain percentage they're going to be trying to monetize but the rest are just going
to start seeing value in being able to utilize their assets in different places i do also think
that the first level of interoperability is going to be you know under a certain gaming studio
umbrella right and i'll try to give you an example as opposed to two gaming companies or a gaming
company in a metaverse brand or whatever trying to work together and figure out what that looks
like i think that the devs that are building out different gaming platforms are going to
utilize the assets between those two worlds to figure out what this looks like long term and i
think that you know if if there are 10 titles underneath a certain studio that they're building
at the moment two or three of those titles can utilize vehicles for instance to enhance the ux
and then ultimately figure out what that play looks like long term and then understand you know
it's a testing ground for what the relationships look like with other studios at some point in time
so i think that's what we're going to see first you know decent example is you're playing this
year's version of madden and then next year madden comes out and you get to take that 99 team with
you to the next version maybe it's not full interoperability but it's a version of it to
give gamers an understanding that games can kind of work together and you know enhance the ux again
not taking away the experience of leveling up that game or that team to the 99 level but i will say
that there are different ways that you can utilize that you know mario for instance could be carried
over from year to year and you can keep that gold mario jacket on mario you know those types of
things i think are going to get allow studios to be creative and and you know utilize interoperability
in different ways where it's not necessarily what we're thinking about right now where
asset a just works in a bunch of worlds i think there's going to be steps to get to that point
and it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out for sure
Alejandro why don't you go and then i see coco you can go after him
yeah so you mentioned world of warcraft earlier and you know i myself i remember you know going
back man even before burning crusade came out so like you know the vanilla well uh way back then
i remember like people were even selling their tunes illegally of course on these websites for
you know usually credit card payments or cash um and i know of course that comes back to the
whole entire thing of okay why not make it something you know illegal why not do what we're
doing where we are actually the feature where people are getting the ownership of their tunes
but at the same time what i'm thinking is okay what they did like wow and let's say for example
eve online both extremely successful mmos um is that they the focus and i know that a lot of web
through game that's happened doing this i'm thinking about metalcore and shrapnel and a few
others out there that i've been focusing this cycle much more on the gameplay and allure which
awesome because that's what really sucks me in that's why i want to stream on the weekends
you know that's not about you know how can i farm this or that um but just thinking of
the cuff here maybe just you know focusing more so on that double downing on the lore and the
gameplay and the certain consumables and weapons you can get rather than focusing on okay you no
longer have to go to this obscure website on the dark web or not to sell this tune but realize that
it is a feature that you can sell the tune because it's on blockchain but downplay it so
you know the hork the hardcore web through people can you know know okay i can level up this tune
see what's selling on the market and go for it but for the web two ones that don't care they just
want to play for the game the lore i.e wow they can just simply like not be how should i say in
the marketing efforts not be pushed oh you know we have a token and we have this we have that
because there may be certain games are built for certain target demographics but what i'm
suggesting is if there is a possibility of one that can encompass gamers as a whole i would think
that the gameplay and the lore would be at the forefront tokenomics everything in like in the
back way way in the back just something for like the people that you know are on these tourist
spaces or you know are on those discords to be shilling and talking about so i'm just you know
i'm thinking they're like obviously it's going to be difficult to create but if wow already had
that illegal market you know why reinvent the wheel if if eve had that in a similar sense so
why reinvent it so maybe that's the answer again it's a lot easier said than done i'm not a dev
myself but just thinking off the cuff here absolutely agree i actually really agree with
that uh the black market of trading and web 2 is a fascinating case study in how web 3
is a solution just it might not be it might be like a content issue um that's actually one of
our thesis is that you know the content plus uh the kind of the uh the feature of trading
doesn't really exist yet and and that's like you said the cycle of shrapnel always
they're coming out or are going to be really interesting to watch in the industry uh coca
why don't you go ahead yeah i mean uh this is really funny because i started off uh putting
my hand up to respond to something that eight bits said but now i've basically them been following
what meta ride said and and actually there's a lot of really great points uh made here but one
thing i wanted to kind of um pick out was that yeah we talk a lot about how um web 3 is and how
it can be sort of relevant to the player and the benefits and as meta ride said it's um once we
have like ecosystems under one umbrella of games um interoperability will be a lot more achievable
because you're doing it under one game logic under one set of devs who can then you know plan out
how things can operate within an ecosystem but there's also the other side of it um which is
how does this how does web 3 unlock um new methods of um running a business um you know
it if we talk specifically about um mobile gaming you know it's gone through uh huge
innovations over the years um and the business model has you know started off where you pay
for a game and then the free to play model has not only played out but it's become just
it's become completely um unsustainable and so with uh the the opportunities to be creative with
how you do your business model um is kind of blows the door wide open with web 3 i mean one of the
the best examples i could say is that you know previously it's people game projects or gaming
companies they don't give away assets for free there's always a payment for it but in this uh
blockchain world you you can potentially i mean with the with the um implementation of royalties
assuming in a world where like royalties are a thing um and they still could be you could give
away assets for free leverage giving away um assets for free to grow your your player base and
then know that that's not the end of the opportunity for you as a business right because
you're facilitating and and this is another thing you know um i think alejandra you mentioned is
um you you're bringing uh an already existing um trading world but just bringing it into a
legitimate space you're facilitating the the trading that players want to do and always have done
and then you get a piece of the the piers as as the creator um of that asset and it allows you
to grow and be sustainable as a company but also obviously and as we've mentioned in this
this conversation so far today is like have a whole host of of benefits for for players themselves so
it feels like that's so much more of a symbiotic balanced ecosystem um for both business and player
yeah well said and and one of the things i'll say uh as we end the space is the um like you said
when you mentioned the the asset was it was never really considered to give away for free you got to
like earn it and by earning it you got to like go through hoops which is money and like that free to
play was very extractive and it's kind of gotten ridiculous man i mean it's just the amount of ads
and the uh like my daughter would uh get one of these you know quote free games but the ads would
be like super tricky and you wouldn't know where the x was and they're trying to get you to like
watch it more and then you install a game and that's like a cost per install event that they
would get paid and it's just it's such a mess and i i kind of i don't know if i would say unsustainable
i think it's just hated maybe is a different word i would use and with web 3 it really introduces
a new business models or yeah take it here you know free to mint um and kind of the web 3 speak
but really is is you know you get all these different items and then when you want to trade
it you know maybe there's a couple percent fee that's that's charged and those fees as we saw
with axi infinity can add up to millions of dollars um and so you know uh if uh if a game
that has a huge player base kind of does this you know the secondary market has a royalty system i
mean they get perpetual royalties i mean especially with uh games like um like runescape you know where
it's like decades old i mean that could really be interesting uh to see play out so um quite a
fascinating perspective um and i want to thank all of our speakers today for uh coming on to our
space we have these every two weeks so stay tuned for our next space and uh cheers appreciate it
thank you thank you thank you for having me