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🎙️WEB3|+C.O.C ft MonkeyZoo & Chia Founder Bram Cohen🌱|Sponsor MONTAGE
Recorded: March 28, 2025 Duration: 2:28:12Space Recording
Short Summary
The Community of Communities is launching a groundbreaking Web3 movement that emphasizes collaboration and creativity, showcasing innovative projects and partnerships. With a focus on decentralized gaming and unique NFT functionalities, the event highlights the growth and potential of the cheer ecosystem.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Revolution found a, paved the way, laid the mortar, miss EV spaces, mental health like
clean water.
Tuesdays roll round, minds get smooth and calm on, a sanctuary found in digital armor.
Community of communities, we rise.
X spaces buzz of truth, they disguise.
Friday, Saturday Saturday's voices amplify
Together we're strong, unity's our guide
Thy revolution, words like heavy artillery
Bacon sandwich co-hosts, V mental artillery
Late in the week, X marks our territory
Stories unfold, shaping our narrative, no allegory
Community of communities, we rise.
Big spaces, us and truth, they decide.
Friday, Saturday, these voices amplified.
Together we're strong, unity's our guide.
By revolution, words like heavy artillery.
Bacon sandwich, co-hosts, feeding mental artillery.
Late in the week, X marks our territory.
Stories unfold, shaking our narrative, no alleg allegory Community of communities, we rise, X spaces buzzin', truth ain't the skies
Friday, Saturdays, voices amplify, together we're strong, unity's our guy
Fridays live with discussion, minds intertwine
Saturdays replay, thoughts age like fine
Wind from dark to dawn dawn follow the growth line
In these spaces, innovations to shine Mental health and spotlight, no need for stage fright
Communities torchbearers keeping it tight Miss Evie soothing toe and healing in nightlight
With our collective strength, the futures ignite.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Community of Communities, a groundbreaking Web3 movement that celebrates the limitless possibilities of the Web3 movement and the remarkable individuals and communities who are shaping the future.
Stay tuned for a showcase of inspiration, collaboration, and boundless creativity
as we dive deep into the heart of the community of communities.
Welcome aboard.
I now bring you our host, the revolution. corner shared out the space dropped a comment liked it but marked it as well we appreciate you legends tonight is a super cheer special so we're super excited and we appreciate all
your legends for being here so as always we will introduce everybody on the stage and then we will
dive straight into introducing the guests as well so first of all bacon how we doing brother
yeah all right boys and girls yeah i'm looking forward to tonight i love it we do cheer spaces uh the cheer community is full of uh big brain legends um from what i've seen but yeah i love
our uh cheer spaces they're always great and looking forward to catching up monkey zoo we've
known monkey zoo for ages um welcome bram nice to meet you dude uh but yeah no it's uh looking
forward to tonight should be good uh good cheers yeah absolutely nice one bacon and uh you know glad you're having a good
friday so far my friend definitely looking forward to tonight it's going to be super awesome i mean
of course we will say hello to everybody on the stage we'll say hello to all the
co-hosts as well um i think you just need to accept co-host over there bacon whenever you
get the chance brother and i don't have the notification for it apparently yeah it might
be bugging out it
can do that that is x for you my friend that is x for you of course but we also have i'll drop out
real quick yeah no it's nice and bacon we also have crypto tour in the building happy friday
tony how are we doing brother happy friday yeah i'm good looking forward to this space
I'm good looking forward to this space
Oh to a listen to monkeys you and brown well
Definitely let's go nice one Tony appreciate your brother
Just get bacon back on stage in the meantime. We also have Tim Youngman the founder of monkeys doing the building Tim
Thank you for joining us my friend. Happy Friday. So how are we?
Hey, thanks for having us. Yeah, I'm'm all well yeah uh it's good to be a friday it's good to be a friday yeah i'm uh i'm uh
very very honored to be on the stage with bram i've been on stage with bram a few times and he's uh
he's obviously a very interesting fella so yeah um i'll throw it back to you i'm not sure if you
want bram to start first or do the first hour or so or me but um i'll i'll throw it back to you. I'm not sure if you want Bram to start first or do the first hour or so or me,
but I'll throw it back to you to decide.
I have a hard stop at three.
Okay, so Bram's first.
Yeah, that solves that one.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for being accommodating as well, Monkizu.
Bram, nice to meet you.
Happy Friday.
And thank you for joining us tonight.
We really appreciate it.
Good to be here. Yeah, yeah definitely we are really excited um we love everything we've heard about
cheer um you know we've had the pleasure of speaking to a lot of people in the cheer community
um and we've also featured gene a couple of times as well so it's super awesome to have the honor
to feature you as well tonight so definitely look forward to having a conversation with you. So yeah, again, thank you for joining us tonight.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Not a problem.
So yeah, normally what we would ask everyone to do,
if you would be okay to do so,
is just give a little introduction of who you are,
what it is that you do in the industry,
and then as much as a backstory
as you'd like to just introduce yourself with,
that would be awesome if that's okay.
Yeah, I'm Bram. I am the founder of chia network which is uh we'll be talking about here um and uh i'm mostly known for my previous company which was bit tornt i created bit and
i'm uh yeah and so at chia I'm the chief technical person right now.
So I'm responsible for kind of, you know, envisioning future products,
keeping the wheels from falling off the bus, that kind of stuff.
Right now, the big project I personally am working on is peer-to-peer poker.
Which is played over state channels.
So that's what I'm up to.
I'm a keen poker player.
I've played in a few tournaments,
gone to some final tables,
good experiences, not like big massive ones,
just more like sort of local ones. i like to think i'm all right
i've played a lot of cards uh online in particular um i did i used to love a free roll just a little
you know as a 16 year old kid click that and uh yeah that was good fun back in the day just enjoy
it the point of uh peer-to-peer gaming is there's no casino. And that has two big benefits.
Number one, there's no rake.
So no casino taking your money.
And number two, it's legal in many more places.
It's actually legal in most places.
There's meaningful distinctions in the law between games of skill versus games of chance
and whether you're playing with a casino or directly against somebody
else so if you're playing a game of skill directly against somebody else that's legal in a lot more
places and that's not like a loophole gotcha in the law that's very intentional in the way the
uh that it's written yeah i mean poker is more of a game than it is uh uh betting. It's because you have control of the odds.
You're never forced to play a hand.
There's some chance involved, obviously.
Of course.
Whether you win a hand or not is chance.
But there's enough skill in it
that it's widely regarded as a game of skill.
Certainly over the long run,
a better player will clearly
win and there's a lot of depth to how good people can get at poker.
It turns out poker is a very good game for playing on chain because it's already optimized
for a lot of the same things. A high level view, the gaming I'm building, it's already optimized for a lot of the same things.
A high level view, the gaming I'm building, it's played over state channels, so you are playing in real time.
There's this fallback that happens where if there's an issue, which normally there shouldn't
be, but sometimes someone might be disconnected or try to grief the other person or whatever,
then whatever hands are pending at the time that that happens have to be played out on chain.
So in poker, a poker session is not one long game.
It's a lot of very, very short games.
So the amount of damage done by having to play out those pending hands on chain is not
that big of a deal.
Poker's pretty well designed for this already just because it's a game designed to be played between assholes who don't trust each other.
Kind of already working in that
regime.
Although there's also
I'm tweaking the rules a bit to match
the needs of the medium.
That's a little involved, but I can explain
if people want to hear about it.
Biggest thing being it only supports
two player. That's a I can explain if people want to hear about it. Biggest thing being it only supports two-player.
That's a pretty hard one.
So it's only heads up?
Yeah.
Whoa, that's brutal.
Yeah, there's, like, I don't even know how to make state channels work
if you have three people,
much less actually having the game work if you have three people. It's
kind of a deep issue. There's literature on what's called the envy-free cake splitting
and the number of messages just goes to infinity just mudocrisly quickly. It's crazy. So, yeah.
Heads up only. You also have, you know, if you have more than two players, you have all
these collusion problems where even if it works at the channel level
on a technical level, multiple players can gang up on the other one,
which is less of a problem in poker than in other games,
but still most definitely happens.
I know it actually happens because I've done it.
I'm in the same poker tournament as my friend.
Sometimes we'll meet each other in the tournament
and we'll have to be strategic about how we play.
Yeah.
That's
not good to do.
No, it's not.
But it was a free roll tournament.
It didn't cost anyone anything.
No harm, no foul.
It's a free game.
The other thing that's a free game. Yeah. So here it's heads up only.
The other thing that's a little strange and interesting is it's very, very difficult to
support card removal effects.
It's very easy for us to both get two random cards as our whole cards.
But it's very difficult to have the phenomenon that like my whole cards and your whole cards can't be the same as each other right so like it when you're
dealt you know your whole cards in poker you don't know what my whole cards are but you know a tiny
bit about them because you know they're not the same as yours and vice versa about what i know
about you that's really really hard to support um, and if you read the literature on mental poker, like, most of it is dealing with that
one problem.
So what I'm doing is I made a poker variant which has an infinite deck.
That's what I'm doing.
So you could have six aces?
No, five aces.
Yeah, of course, five card hand.
Yeah, you still have a five card hand, but you can have five of a kind.
And then to keep it from getting too weird, I got rid of suits, and then to bring back some of what was lost with not
having flushes, I added in this concept of whole cards being boosted.
There's a few tweaks to adapt it to the medium, but I am trying really hard to not be indulgent
and make up weird games for people to play.
I'm trying to take proven concepts and adapt them to the medium so the the
poker is one of them there's another game that's kind of similar to chinese poker uh that's kind of a reference game and then there's the other game that we're going to roll out with initially
is basically two-player wordle where one person where both people pick a word and the other person tries to
guess the word and they get Wordle style clues.
And the fewer guesses you get it in, the more money you get out of the other player.
So yeah, those are the games.
That's awesome.
It's really interesting that it's kind of already pre-optimized for you to be able to
do that as well.
That's really interesting.
Well, this has been under development for like three years now.
That's brilliant.
Yeah.
I've spent a lot of time on the actual game design.
I'm actually a professional mechanical puzzle inventor,
so working on game stuff is not that far afield for me.
And so, yeah, I have the good fortune to understand the whole stack here going from like state channels and how they work all the way to like the rules of the game.
And that's really, really helpful because these things are interacting very directly.
Yeah, I find that really interesting as well.
Yeah, I find that really interesting as well.
And I appreciate your level of skill with that.
Has that kind of played a part in the way that you've decided to construct the Chia blockchain?
You know, gaming kind of happened semi by accident.
accident, the Chia is based off of Bitcoin and based in particular about everything that people
Chia is based off of Bitcoin.
have learned about how stuff works in Bitcoin. So Chia is really designed from the ground up to
support state channels very, very well. But it does that in a way that's like very abstract.
There's no, it's not like there's an opcode that's a state channel. It's like the techniques that people had figured out for supporting state channels in Bitcoin are supported very, very
well in Chia because we got to design the on-chain programming environment with all those warnings
about what you might want to do and how to make that work well. So as it happens, it's good enough that it can support gaming. The actual immediate impetus for supporting gaming wasn't to specifically support gaming,
although it's a worthy end goal in and of itself.
It was because we were having a discussion about payment channels because we wanted to
support payment channels eventually.
That's a plan and
uh we're talking to one of the core lightning devs and he was like you don't want to support
a payment channel network like making a payment channel network is horrible it's awful and it's
horrible for a way that's in a for a reason that's stupid which is you need liquidity so people need
to plop down real money and have real world business relationships
in order for this to actually be a functioning thing.
And my immediate reaction was like,
okay, cool, I'm just gonna support gaming.
The idea being if you and I want to do a session,
we do one transaction
where we both plop down our money immediately and
then we play over that state channel that we made.
And then when the session is done, we shut it down.
So this doesn't require liquidity being locked up for the long run.
It just means we need to have it when we want to start playing.
This has the downside that we need to wait for a transaction to go through at the beginning
to get the state channel set up.
But that's like, that takes like a minute.
So it's not a big deal.
Everyone's quiet.
Yeah, I mean, we kind of put these spaces together to give people a chance to talk about the things they're
most passionate about, the things that you've created and stuff like that.
One thing I found out about you is you are a master puzzle maker.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, I imagine that that comes with quite a community, right?
Yeah, there is a community of people who are into puzzles in general.
I'm a little bit specifically into mechanical puzzles,
but do know people in other puzzle spaces.
Yeah, so there aren't that many people who do that,
which is kind of nice because it means you have sort of people that you know, not just this
never-ending meraz of people.
But yeah, I've been doing that for a long time now, and there's actually a bunch of
puzzles that I invented that are in mass production that you can go buy in toy stores and stuff.
And I saw you dropped,
I think it was a CAD file the other day,
so people could print their own little...
Yeah, I have some stuff on printables.
Now, there's a whole lot more stuff
I really should post there, and I haven't done.
But yeah, the other day printed this puzzle
I'm holding right now, which has a bunch of hinges on it.
It's a bunch of cubes with hinges, and the puzzle is to fold it into a 2x2x2 cube.
And it's way harder than you would expect. And it's a really
fun puzzle. So I posted that, and it's really easy to print yourself.
So I just printed the files for it.
I think that's really cool as well, because I think there's
so much value to extract from puzzles with, you know, just kind of like the way that it can ease your mind, the way that it can keep you, you know, focused.
thinking time. My son loves to multitask with when he's playing. It's the best time for me to speak
to him when he's playing with a puzzle. And I just think there's a lot of value to be had just
from that side of it, really. Yeah. People who collect books will say,
if you're able to read all the books you collect, you're doing it wrong. And I sort of feel I've
done this with puzzles, that I have a lot of really interesting puzzles that I own that I really just don't have time for.
So once in a while, I'll play with one of them for a while and manage to solve it.
But a lot of these things can take days.
And they can take days of actually focused attention, which is fun to do.
But it's like I have so many hobby things I should be doing and stuff on top of, like, actual work.
So, yeah, it's a constant struggle.
Yeah, I bet it is.
But I suppose you do have to give yourself a little break sometimes just to kind of, like, you know, process things or, you know,
give it a fresh set of eyes by, you know, just taking your eyes off it for a little bit.
Yeah.
But I definitely think that that's uh it's definitely a really interesting um
because it's it for me it feels like it kind of ties into what you create digitally
um when it comes to you know what you've built with cheer um you know i'd love for you to tap
into that a little more because it just seems so unique in comparison to a lot of the chains that
we obviously talk about and know about and you know accumulate
assets from um because it seems to have you know elements of bitcoin as you were saying earlier but
also the utility of like ethereum plus you know unique utilities of its own as well yeah well the
it has some functionality in terms of high level of what to do that's sort of kind of inspired by what people
do on ethereum um but it's all the technical details are are from bitcoin and some of them
are not in bitcoin per se because they're extending it and stuff but it really is very much based off
of the bitcoin worldview everywhere with certain things loosened up that the details
get really involved. There's this weird thing where like Bitcoin script is extremely limited
and then Solidity just lets you do whatever. And there's this view of Bitcoin people that
Solidity is dangerous and nearly impossible to implement in a reliable way.
And there's this view of Solidity people that Bitcoin is just useless.
The Bitcoin script is just useless.
And both of these really do have a point.
So I like to think Chialisp combines the best of both,
that it makes everything super reliable and auditable,
like it is in Bitcoin script, while having a lot of the potential functionality of Solidity. And
in fact, there are a whole bunch of things that it does well that are very, very difficult to do
well in Solidity. It's really kind of designed from the ground up that everything that you have,
because everything is a coin, it's like, you know, in Unix, everything is a coin it's like you know in unix everything is a file because of that um uh almost everything is like automatically uh interoperable and extensible
which is really really nice once you get it you know working uh but it does kind of feel like
from the point of view of bitcoin people chelisp is utterly crazy in what it allows
and from the point of view of ethereum people that good chelisp is utterly crazy in what it allows. And from the point of view of Ethereum
people, the Chialisp is utterly insane in how restrictive it is. That speaks to how wide of a
gulf there is between those two camps. But it definitely allows you to do a lot of the stuff
people do in Ethereum. In fact, do it a lot better, but it is a lot more work to get that working.
A lot of it for good reason.
There are all these design patterns.
There are best practices that people have for safe solidity programming.
And Sheilis basically makes you do all of those things.
Not just those things, but several layers on top of it are just an absolute requirement of the environment that you can't avoid.
So you created your own programming language for this?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of a...
It's a Lisp-type language.
Lisp is a good fit because for consensus layer, you want something very, very simple. And it turns out you want something very, you need sandboxing.
Sandboxing is very, very important for on-chain programming.
It's really normal to take a thing and validate it and go,
oh, well, I'm supposed to call it now, and then you call it.
And so there's this question of how do you build sandboxing?
And the easiest way to build sandboxing is to make everything be sandboxed all the time
just by having no side effects anywhere.
So Lisp is a good fit for that.
So yeah, that's why we're using Lisp.
The high level view is that the language that you use to write what in Bitcoin are called script pubkeys, and in Chia are called puzzles, it's CLVM,
which is what Chialisp compiles into. Although often we just refer to the entire environment
as Chialisp. That looks like this kind of weird, CLVM is kind of this like machine code Lisp thing.
And it turns out that does plenty enough to let you write arbitrary code in it.
Although it is a little bit on some level.
If you just read the spec of CLVM, it's like, what is this?
It reads like it's the functional programming equivalent of brain fuck or something. But then the other thing is that the actual format of what coins are is dumped down.
And it's really not obvious why that's a good idea.
But it turns out that making it so that it's very easy from inside of Chialisp to generate
coin IDs and reason about them is very very powerful so yeah
yeah that is really interesting and it's incredible how you've managed to you know
create this language that um kind of really ties into these different utilities um and one of the
things that i was going to ask if i may is know, what was, and I imagine it's probably a handful,
but what are the handful of ways in which you hope for people to utilize the Chia blockchain?
Well, there's a bunch of things the Chia blockchain for its trading platform.
Permuto is something we're setting up that's going to be taking stock in just regular big companies and tokenizing their stock.
But on top of that, splitting it between the dividends and the under and the
asset portion of it this is something that's been done for bonds for a long time now but hasn't been
done uh for stocks to date mostly because it's just a lot more paperwork expense uh to do so
and uh because we're doing on-chain trading we're able to simplify a lot of things
and dramatically reduce the costs of doing it
to the point where it's actually practical to do this.
So that's a really normie,
boring finance thing that we're doing
that gets finance people very excited,
but not the general public.
But there's a lot of business there,
and it really speaks to how cryptocurrencies really are accounting systems
at a deep level.
That is the thing that they do and do very, very well.
And accounting is a very real industry.
So that's one thing we have going on.
And then, of course, there's gaming, which I'm building as well,
which is a good end unto itself.
Yeah, definitely something I'm excited to see how, you know,
how that unfolds with you and how you're looking to really integrate that. But, you know, like you were saying, the accounting side is a real thing and very important. And the fact that you know the Chia team are so professional about how they've constructed this
ecosystem that can be utilized by you know corporations and big entities but also
seeing how the community are also utilizing it is something that we really appreciate seeing
from the Chia community because they're so helpful um and die hard but
they're so welcoming in a way that's quite unique in the web3 space that we really appreciate and
you know they're just really eager for people to learn about the blockchain like what it is how you
can utilize it there's so much educational content people are just wanting to see people build they
want to support that they support each other and it's such a it's such a great community that's been built around this amazing ecosystem so it's really
impressive to see that it's very clear to see from our perspective that growth and learning
and development is something that is clearly highly celebrated in the in the cheer net community and
we just think that that's a brilliant thing to see and that's clearly got to be from the back end of what the team are delivering and how you guys
are looking at delivering that yeah thanks i'm very happy that we have like a real developer
community now um it's been a big focus of us as a company is making it so that other people can
build stuff right we really want the center of Chialisp development to be inside of the community. Although right now, obviously, it's not. And a lot of what I'm doing is geared
towards making tools for people to use. Like making the Chialisp language be more featureful
and easier to write stuff in. And having lots more example code of how to write Chielisp in general
and also very specific things that people can just use. Like we made singletons and we made
an asset token standard. These are non-trivial pieces of code that people can just use.
And there's this big question that people have had for a while now of, hey, I want to get started
in Chielisp. Where should I start? I was like, oh, well, this is a bit of a slog. But once gaming is out, I think I'm going
to have a good answer for that, which is if you want to do something in Chiel is just to learn
something, what you should do is make a new game. Because the platform we're building is not going
to require that you understand a huge amount of difficult stuff before you can
really get something running. It's going to allow you to pretty straightforwardly just learn some
basic things and then be able to implement a game of your own. And there will be example code of
the techniques involved and how to do particular things. So I'm very excited about that.
techniques involved and how to do particular things so i'm very excited about that yeah that's
amazing um and yeah definitely equally is excited about that as well which um is one of the reasons
why we're super excited to um speak to monkey zoo um in in a little bit more time um so i'd love to
um come back around to the gaming element of that shortly if that's okay because it's it is really
brilliant to see some of the minds that are building on sheer like you know like monkey zoo for example um jacatus and art with heart just
to name a few like these guys have got brilliant minds um they've got amazing communities around
them uh they've got a great ethos very good developers very transparent and you can clearly
see how they are able to literally thrive utilizing the tools that you've created to help them build out
their own infrastructure for their own ecosystems and the way that the community is kind of tied in
with one another it's just a great place to be and there's so much going on yet there's so much
organization and structure and backing it's just brilliant it gives a lot of hope for the industry
because we all know which I'm sure you'll know probably more than anyone that there's a lot of hope for the industry because we all know, which I'm sure you'll know probably more than anyone,
that there's a lot of dark sides to the space
and unfortunate events that happen.
So it's great that you can kind of, you know,
get involved in something that can kind of bring hope
and showcase the true value that this industry
can bring to the world if it's utilized correctly,
but of course built and supported
and structured by the right people and the right minds.
Yeah, well, we're certainly trying
yeah that's that's that's all you can do that's all you can do but um you know i was just uh
noticing the other day that there was um a recent partnership with with cheer which sounds really
exciting um are you able to touch on that a little bit? I'm not sure which one you're referring to.
And I usually,
Gene's the one to talk about all of our exciting partnerships and stuff.
I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm in charge of keeping the wheels from falling off the bus.
Yeah, no, definitely.
I can save that question for, for Gene.
No problem.
I appreciate that.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm doing things like we're working on a new proof of space I can save that question for Gene, no problem. I appreciate that. Yeah.
I'm doing things like we're working on a new proof of space algorithm because our consensus
algorithm is holding up very well.
It's the Curity thesis is really holding up very nicely.
But people figured out how to cheese it a bit, which is unfortunate, and we don't like
that.
So, that's based on some algorithmic stuff that's really involved to explain.
But now that we know about what those things are, I've been working with one of the people
who came up with those techniques on our new proof of space algorithm, which we're going
to switch over to.
So that's going to be out soon. We've been working on it for the last year.
And that's going well. And there's going to be a transition period to our new proof of space
algorithm so that it actually acts like proof of space and you can't buy a bunch of GPUs to squeeze
more out of your space than you're supposed to be able to. So that's one thing I'm doing.
And I'm also doing a lot of planning around custody arrangements.
I have always been very excited to work on better custody arrangements.
Working out good business logic for what should happen in a multi-signature wallet when there's
a battle between signatories for what should happen
is kind of job one of smart money, right? Like this is the thing you should be doing immediately. That's the job of the whole thing. But no one gets excited about working on that. It's very
not sexy. People, you know, they want to work on Ponzi schemes. But it turns out it's really
subtle getting these rules right. So I have been working on our next generation vaults.
We have new vaults out for our cloud wallet now,
or like in alpha, I guess, at the moment,
which are much, much better than what people are used to.
But I'm working on the Uber thing
that should be really, really powerful where a big company
can use it for all their money.
And it should have this feature that you want it to be that there can be five signatories
to the company's funds.
And now there's a battle over control here where two of these signatories are being malicious and they're
working in collusion with whoever's in charge of IT and the other three signatories are
not technical people.
But still, the UX is good enough that the three non-adversarial people win and don't
lose out on any money and have a minimum of interruption.
So being able to make this happen is a very, very high bar. And I have been working through it and I'm in the specification stages right now with
a little bit of figuring out the technical details of how it's going to work. But this is a bit of a
more long-term project. But that one's getting there. It's interesting working on it because
like on some level, it's really terrifying doing
it. And it's not because there's anything wrong with what I'm doing. It's the exact
opposite. It's like, wait a minute. What I'm doing here is like security 101, like the
very just most basic things about business logic around money. And I have never seen
anyone talk about this ever. What is going on in the world of finance security this is wrong
yeah did you want to touch on uh something there bacon
yeah so the uh there was a submission to the sec wasn't there recently in january um and that was to basically be able to trade tokenized um yeah that's the permuto stuff
i was talking about yeah so so accredited investors can uh use their stock to provide liquidity for
people to then trade those stocks in actual stocks um or synthetics or a tokenized version of the stock and it's exchangeable
for the stock but it it removes that five-day waiting period before funds are cleared right
that uneconomical five days where that money is completely uneconomic it's not doing anything
well the decentralized
assets can be traded in real time and you just trade them they're just out um and and you don't
even need an exchange to do that that can be done completely decentralized because we have
tools for doing such things
but yeah i just i just think there's a massive massive market for that um and i think it's it's
done very well one of the things that i like about the way cheer operates is the way that
you guys have found yourself so compliant um within what um governments say is okay for
for blockchains to do yeah um which which i think is incredible i think you guys are absolutely in
the lead when it when it comes to that metric.
Yeah, well, we've always been big on that from the get-go,
just out of ethical concerns, if nothing else.
It's like the laws around securities
aren't based on some esoteric justification.
It's really very simple.
You should be, if you're doing business,
you should be doing business. If you
are selling equity in something, it should be because the business needs liquidity or you need
liquidity, but you should get this as a reward for a job well done. It should not be that you
build up a whole bunch of hype and pump something and do a bunch of wash trading to make it look
like there's a bunch of blah blah blah going on and then sell a whole bunch of your stuff
and then get out without having actually created something of value and so we've always been very
focused on the whole actually creating something of value part of the whole thing and not around hype.
Yeah, and it seems like you're also very heavily supported on what you've created so far,
I think because of these abilities and features and utilities as well, which is great to see as well. I'm not sure what you mean by heavily supported, but yeah, we have, there's about 50 people
at Chia Network Inc. and it's all very focused on improving the tooling and making the whole
ecosystem better and making it have real value.
Yeah, that is exactly it.
And that's very you know easy to see um and it's great to see as
well because you know once you provide the the tooling for people to be able to utilize then
you know what can be created as a result of that is very profound and you know that is very excited
exciting to hear when you know there's so many creative people that are just able to
do so many amazing things so you know it must be awesome for you to kind of create these tools and then see how people
utilize them. Yeah. Well, when we started, I was going around asking people, well, this is in like,
you know, 2017 and I was going around asking people, so what are the good smart contracts?
Like they were called smart contracts at the time. So like, what are the good smart contracts. They were called smart contracts at the time.
So what are the good smart contracts?
What is a smart contract that's actually useful, that actually does something that's worth
doing?
That's not just another variant on Ponzi schemes.
And people thought I was trolling.
I'm like, no, I'm serious.
Tell me what.
Just tell me something, anything. And now we have a whole bunch of these,
that there's custody, there's distributed exchange,
there's gaming, there are bridges.
There are AMMs, so that's something that sort of verbatim came over.
that sort of verbatim came over.
There's NFTs, which are a thing.
There's NFTs, which are a thing.
But yeah, the thing that I'm not big on
is like peer-to-peer lending.
It's like, there's no special secret sauce in crypto
that allows you to lend without credit worthiness.
That's not a thing.
What it does do is allow you to move money around
without a trusted intermediary.
It most definitely allows you to that
and allows you to make a good platform
for having smart coins.
But it doesn't remove credit worthiness as a thing.
And if you pretend that it does,
you're just asking for a completely normie pump and dump or crash.
I mean, we've seen some of these things happen already, and there could be a bad crash.
So the things that we're doing are very, very focused on actually owning the stuff,
like having the stuff yourself and moving it around and not trusting other people and not lending just as a general
flavor of what we're doing yeah i do i do really like that i think that that is um very important
and it's kind of great to see that um the community are really good at helping educate people, as I was saying earlier.
And I think that is a real game changer for the growth of the blockchain is having people being able to understand, you know, this tooling and these languages and how to utilize it and what you're aiming to accomplish and seeing how you guys are doing that.
Yeah, our community is great and is really very focused
on actual building, which is really great.
It would be good to have some more press and hype,
but I think the stuff that we've got in the works
I'm hoping really will get us some press and hype
that once Bermudo has launched its products
and once gaming is actually out uh
that that's both of those are going to make big splashes yeah definitely if you can if you can hit
the mark with that i think that would be a really exciting ripple to have because i think gaming is
um it feels like it is something that is really on the cusp of of really creating some ripples
in the industry there's you know a lot of people already building ecosystems around this
and there's blockchains trying to, you know,
accommodate for that as well.
So it'd be brilliant to see how Chia can accommodate that.
Also, I think the games that we're making
really are just great games.
They're even ignoring the fact
that you can actually play for real money
in many places where you can't otherwise
do that. They're really, really fun games, if I do say so myself. But it's kind of weird
because these are like, they are a lot of what people call like dumb mobile games. Dumb
in the sense that you can learn them very, very quickly. You can literally spend like
five minutes and have a, like, not only know how to play the game, but have some clue what
it's all about, just learning it.
As you play, it's just ba-ba-ba-done, ba-ba-ba-done, that pace of playing the game.
And the...
Now I'm thinking about the games in the back of my head as I say this.
But it's weird because the minimum viable product for this is actually not very small
because it has to be peer to peer and secure.
And that's a very, very high bar.
Oh, and real time.
And so that's a very high bar to make all of that happen. So it's this weird contrast where we're building some of the silliest mobile games ever created with the most sophisticated backend anyone has ever seen on top of these things.
Yeah, that's brilliant.
But I think it all depends on what people want to play games for as well. Not everyone wants to really sit and focus
or really grind it out like you're playing Call of Duty or Fortnite.
Sometimes people just want that simplistic respite from reality for a moment,
and they just want to enjoy something either on their own or collectively.
It's a mix, because you want something ideally that can be played on both levels,
that gets you that just
immediate like reward as you play just super fast like yeah this kind of stuff but also is like
super deep from a strategy standpoint and packs a whole lot of deep strategy into just very very
few moves and that's a really interesting challenge from a meta game design standpoint and uh the only thing
really out there so far that does that is poker and that's a lot of why the poker community is so
distinct from everything else um but uh that kind of gives a big hint of what the flavor of these
games is like and how they should work and so i've got a few, this suite of games initially that I'm quite happy with
that I think are gonna work a lot on both levels.
Well, the reference game, I think it's not that hard.
While it's a very fun game,
it's not that hard for a human
to play nearly perfectly in it,
although that requires quite a bit of work to get there.
Like you have to really study to make that happen.
But the other two games,
I think, are just
really things that you could have a world championships
in, and that would totally make sense as a thing
to do.
Oh, yeah, definitely. I think having that level of
competition would be a brilliant
touch.
It's proper
competition as well. It's heads up.
It's mellow on mellow. It's proper competition as well. It's heads up, it's mallow on mallow, you know?
It's handbags at dawn.
It's a face-to-face.
Heads up is nice because it's fast, right?
Like, it's, when you're playing for money,
the problem with heads up is one player or the other
is gonna be advantaged, and so it's a lot easier for people to realize,
hey, wait, I'm the sucker here, so I'm leaving.
Where if you have more people playing,
it's easier for people to tell themselves
that they're not the fish at the table.
But yeah, there's this interesting balance
where you kind of want like just enough randomness in
it that it's not completely no fun for the worst player like if you look at a game like go then
at that game the player who's inferior just loses just gets obliterated like every time unless
you're playing with a handicap.
But these games are designed to be still fun.
So I'm not sure how the poker's gonna work by having an infinite deck.
Surely you're just playing on luck at this point.
No, it's not that different
because card removal effects aren't that huge of a thing
in poker strategy, it does make it so that, like, there's all this thing that very good players do
where they are, when they're deciding whether to bluff or fold, they look at their kicker,
because that impacts the other player's hand.
And here you can't do that, so that's removed from it.
But a lot of the game is pretty much the same thing.
There's some other aspects of it that also change the game a lot, but in more subtle
ways.
Like, the move order is changed.
So like, actually, heads up poker, the move order makes a lot of sense if you start from
ring games and work your way down. But if you just start with heads up, the normal like betting order of poker or cross rounds and being in position is
very confusing to new players. And it also does this thing that's kind of subtle and hard to
explain where it's like kind of like sometimes there's a player who moves twice in a row. Like
if you're out of position and then you call and then you act first on the next street,
that's like you moving twice in a row.
Which if you're playing on chain means that the other player does this like ghost move in between those two.
And that's really weird.
So I just changed the rules there.
So the first to act on every street is whoever was the aggressor on the previous street.
So basically you're always alternating moves.
Okay, so it's not set on a button. Yeah, there's no button.
There's a coin toss of who moves first on the first street,
and thereafter it's always alternating turns between the two players.
Which I think is much more intuitive to new players.
And it has this big practical benefit that if you unroll to chain,
it's fewer turns in the entire game.
So it's less time spent waiting for those hands to play out.
So that's a good thing.
But this might just be a good idea from a play standpoint,
but what it does to strategy, I have no idea.
I mean, I guess the strategy would be to be aggressive, I guess.
I'm not sure. Because if you were the strategy would be to be aggressive, I guess. I'm not sure.
Because if you were the aggressor on a previous street,
it's kind of on you to do something now,
but you're kind of out of position.
But then it might not be that different
because normally in poker,
whoever's out of position just automatically calls anyway.
So yeah, I don't know what it does.
But a lot of very good players kind of like it
when the rules are mixed up because then nobody else, then nobody has any solvers at least for
a while. So there's a benefit just to mixing it up just for the sake of mixing up. And here there's
technical reasons for these changes. So it sounds interesting. I mean's it's not you know your classic poker um with you know that
yeah it's extra lally you've been able to be dealt you know seven of the same card
uh yeah well he yeah you could have well you still only have two whole cards um and there's still the
normal number of cards on each street.
But there's no suits.
Because that got too weird.
But yeah, you could have a bizarre hand where you have, like, five of a kind on the table.
Although that's not different from getting four of a kind on the table, which has happened.
I mean, that does happen once in a while in poker.
Actually, here, yeah, Horicon table is still pretty interesting.
I'm not a very good poker player. I know a little bit about it. But
I think it's still recognizably poker, I think. And there's no trademark on the name poker. Like,
anyone can call anything they want poker.
And this is compared to a lot of the things people call poker,
this is most definitely a poker.
It's just mixing up, you know,
some things with the deck and such a little bit.
But it's still clearly the same type of game.
Yeah, I mean, it changes the dynamic, I think,
completely in regards to how you value your hand.
Especially earlier in the game,
because the rest of the game is so sort of less predictable.
Yeah, well, there's this other thing I'm putting in,
because there's no flushes anymore,
because I got rid of suits, and that seems unfortunate.
So in addition to your two hole cards,
you get another bit of information,
which is another secret thing that's only revealed at Showdown. But you're either boosted or not. You have a one in three
chance of being boosted, just getting lucky and being boosted. And boosting is the first tie
break after the hand type. So if one player has three of a kind and the other player has two pair,
player has like three of a kind and the other player has two pair, then the three of a kind
still wins regardless of boosting. But if one player, if there are two players, both
of whom have three of a kind, then if one of them is boosted and the other one is not,
then the one who's boosted wins even if they have a lower set than the other player.
Oh, even if it's a lower set?
Yeah. And you see whether you're
suited or not when the cards
are dealt out so it's an analog of your
cards being suited
is the idea
okay yeah I can see
oh that's actually relevant in even
more situations than being suited is
so that's the idea there trying to
put that back in because I felt bad about
moving suits that's the
possibly the weirdest thing that I'm adding to the whole thing but yeah there's a whole That's the idea there, trying to put that back in, because I felt bad about removing suits.
That's possibly the weirdest thing that I'm adding to the whole thing.
But yeah, there's a whole bunch of things here.
Really changing the dynamic a lot.
But I think in ways that make it just a fun and interesting and deep game to play is the hope.
Yeah, and I see what you mean now in regards of it being um simplistic enough
to pick it up quickly but um have that level of um depth to it where there is a lot of strategy
involved so i like the way that you've managed to can contain that within the game although there
is some slight changes it keeps people on keeps people on the toes a little bit you know you know one thing that's weird is the ux on poker that's used
even when people are playing for paid money is horrible it's like what is this garbage and so
one thing i'm doing is really re-envisioning the ux of poker because there's no way i'm pushing
out something that looks like what the standard ux Like, it seems insane to me that it doesn't show you what's happened in the hand history on
your screen. You're just supposed to kind of remember it and see it as it flashes by as people
are doing stuff, which seems insane. Like when people are playing tennis, it like shows you
exactly what's happening in the tennis match, even though the history of it doesn't matter,
just the score does. They still show you the history, where in poker, the history does matter, and they don't show it to you,
which I think is kind of skeuomorphic just from people playing in person. But this seems nuts to
me. So we're building a UX where it shows you very nicely and clearly every single thing that
has happened in the hand that you are playing right now in the interface as you're doing it.
And there's this interesting subtle question of whether that's cheating. Like, is this a cognitive aid that's giving
you an unfair advantage? But it's like, well, if everybody has it, it's not giving anyone
an unfair advantage. And I think that will make the game more fun to play and definitely more
fun to watch so you can see people doing it and actually not have to, like, super carefully try
and see every little thing that happens. Yeah's a really good point actually um which brings the the tournament element back to it um
i never thought about it from the perspective of a of an observer so that's really interesting
actually yeah well i'm hoping people stream this right i think that's a big market is people
streaming games yeah do you think that would ever be something that,
cheer would be able to accommodate in the future?
Well,
this is peer to peer.
People could stream whatever they want.
Let's go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that's,
that's,
that's so cool.
I'm definitely looking forward to,
to checking this out and seeing how it plays out and,
and seeing,
seeing how people
resonate with it and uh and what comes from it that's going to be really interesting yeah i've
been feeling excited about actually playing the games we're very very very close to that actually
happening now it's like coming soon this is the big joke at chia we always say things are happening
soon the vernacular the jargon is if we say something is going to be delivered soon, that
means we are actually actively developing it.
Like we're working on it.
If we say it will happen eventually, that means it's on the roadmap.
That we're in the process of designing it or have a coherent plan to start working on
it at some point in the future, but we're not actually coding it yet today.
So that's just what we tell people because software, you know, software is notoriously difficult to schedule.
So when people can't respond maturely, if you give them even very tentative schedules with lots of disclaimers and then don't hit exactly what you said, people freak out.
So we've taken to just saying soon or eventually for when things are going to happen.
If we say a date, it's usually because we have like a release candidate out.
Yeah, it's literally done and ready to roll.
Yeah.
But no, that's a smart move, of course.
And I mean, I think the people have kind of asked for that outcome because, like you said,
if there are delays or there are things that take a little longer or whatever,
you know, it doesn't really hit well.
So yeah, same coming soon would make more sense.
But yeah, we're definitely,
I can see the funny side of that 100%.
Yeah.
I can see that you probably enjoy that response.
Yeah, well, I've been doing software for a long time.
So I know how this works.
Usually when people ask for timelines,
there's this horrible thing where people freak out
if you give honest timelines.
And then, so they just demand basically implicitly
that you lie about or give unrealistic timelines.
And then they get mad at you later
for not hitting the unrealistic timelines that you gave.
People seem to be utterly unable to escape from this psychologically and the lesson seems to be that you should just not not even try to make coherent timelines just because it's so unhealthy
to do that yeah no nobody wins yeah but you you do have um an amazing um history in in development and creativity and and and what
you've what you've done you know you've got quite an amazing career actually um and it sounds like
you really enjoy it as well and and that's amazing to hear um and everyone who you know we've
connected with that knows who you are really appreciate what you've built how you've built
things um the approach that you take and it's great yeah you speak about it as well i i really love coding
and i'm a bit of a fanatical perfectionist about things which sometimes drives my co-workers crazy
um but yeah i actually don't get to code as much as i would like. I've been doing a lot of all the coding except the coding
lately, where I'll do all this design work on things. And then once it's actually at the point
where it's like, okay, we've got our notes together, we're ready to start coding. It's like,
oh, I guess I should hand this off to somebody else now. There's been a lot of that going on.
So part of the point with gaming, it was to get me doing some actual coding for a few reasons.
One of them is so I could actually do some coding.
Another one was so that I could give feedback on the Chialis language, which I did a lot.
There's been a lot of, I write some code and then I whine to Art who's working on the Chialist
compiler about how my code won't run because it uses language features that I just totally
made up and don't exist.
And so that's been really great for developing the Chialisp language. Gaming is a technical enough thing that a lot of the
on-chain code, it was really, really good for me to write it myself rather than try and explain it
to other people. It wound up being a lot of super, super tiny amounts of code that are
very, very subtle in terms of how they work. And it was way better for me to write that directly than do a very inefficient thing
of trying to explain it to other people.
Like writing the code is the best way to explain it.
I have to go now.
I have a hard stop.
I got to chat.
But this has been great.
Thanks everybody.
Yeah, no problem.
Thank you so much for joining us.
It's been an absolute honor.
You know, we definitely look forward to hopefully getting you back again in the future.
Hopefully we can get you and Gene in the same space.
That would be awesome if we can try and schedule that in the future at some point.
But no, thank you so much for stopping by and joining us.
Yeah, thank you.
Bye.
Thanks a lot.
Yeah, Gene sings your praises all the time
it was uh yeah what great what great first hour to our space there it's a shame we had to
dart off so quick um i think it would be great to uh have had him stick around for a second half
yeah he's a busy guy clearly yeah a million percent um but I think, you know, a perfect tie over in regards of, you know, games on cheer and, you know, the language in which is used ties nicely into the legendary Tim Youngman, the founder of Monkey Zoo.
Thank you for being a second guest, you know, as well. We really do appreciate that, you know, you're willing to stick around for the first hour.
I mean, of course, you know, Bram is an absolute legend and done some incredible things and it was great to to connect
with him but yeah i just want to say a quick thank you as well to everyone that's in the space so far
thank you to everyone that's listened in that's shared it out you know we really hope that you're
enjoying the space so far and uh you know we definitely hope that we see a lot of you guys
again in the in the not so distant future so you know thank you for for being here but without further ado we have tim youngman hello sir how are we i'm good i'm very good yeah um
bram's an interesting character isn't he is uh he's um you know i'm of the age where i certainly
remember um you know using bit torrent and this kind of new I guess I guess it was like this new way of um
of uh shall we say um watching films and things but uh you guys are too young to really remember
all that stuff that was like the uh the noughties I suppose um but yeah yeah thanks for having me
up here I've got um I've got greek greek down below i'm
not sure if he's requested to come up um but if he hasn't um ping him out a ping him out a request
because he's been he's been kind of working closely on the uh fusion zoo stuff and uh some of the
technology we've been working on so um if he's down there so yeah is that greg did you say greg yeah yeah i'll uh i've just pinged
an uh an invitation phone to come up for you yeah cool yeah yeah so um yeah uh good good
good start to the first uh the first hour of your show yeah thank you i mean honestly we can i think
we could have carried on going for like another hour at least.
Yeah.
I think we were just getting started.
Yeah.
You know, obviously, you know, he's a unique person. I think, you know, us being in the Chia community, you kind of not take it for granted as such,
because he's such an intelligent guy and he's um you know
his mathematical brain is something that nobody probably nobody on this planet can quite comprehend
so it is quite daunting actually to to sort of go deep into these conversations with him because
i i come away from them often and think um you know i don't i don't really understand that
um you know i don't i don't really understand that but um but i'm glad he's i'm glad he's on
my side put it that way yeah no i totally resonate with that you know that's kind of one of the
things you know me personally i enjoy about having these conversations is always speaking to people
that have got so much experience and so much knowledge so that we can just be forever learning
and yeah a lot of the time you know things can be baffling and it takes you know diving deeper or hearing it multiple times but it was great to um
you know to catch him on our space for the first time and just get a taste of kind of who he is
where he came from what he does what he enjoys and kind of get a bit of a feel for for how his
mind works which i found you know like with the puzzles really interesting that you know he's kind
of got that mind of always wanting to it feels feels like he's always wanting to, you know, solve problems and piece things together in a way that kind of that kind of works.
But also, you know, change things in a way where you can kind of remove certain elements, but it's still function in a way that makes sense.
So I kind of I liked kind of learning that about him tonight.
And yeah, I definitely look forward to future conversations.
So well said there, Tim.
Yeah, thanks. Thanks. him tonight and uh yeah i definitely look forward to future conversations so well said there tim yeah thanks thanks uh yeah i guess we should i i mean you know um what he was kind of talking about there was obviously some some of the higher level stuff that that we've not yet to really see
on the chia blockchain you know his sort of gaming things are opening the way for these quite um interesting like
payment channels and i think um you know that they are they're limited in some respect um you
know you're not going to be able to play some sort of um high-end fps type shooter game but
what it what it'll enable is this kind of peer-to-peer transactions uh and what what he's
kind of created are you know just to just to go back on on kind of what-to-peer transactions uh and what what he's kind of created are you know just
to just to go back on on kind of what the chia blockchain is it's kind of this coin set model so
if you imagine everything is a coin whether it's an nft a token um you know a meme coin whatever
you want each one of those is this kind of individual coin that can be individually smart contracted uh and so we what he's made is these
kind of referee coins that can um kind of run the game in a in a sort of peer-to-peer way and so
that so that it kind of stops cheating um so i think i think it's a really big thing and i don't
think he really does it justice there you know you're talking about kind of taking the middleman out of lots of games, you know, like simple poker or some of the simple, you know, I do this kind of bet, this gamble on a peer-to-peer basis where you don't need a casino in the middle.
You don't need this kind of marketplace or something in the middle.
And I think that's a really powerful thing.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
And you don't need a contract in the middle.
You don't need a contract in the middle to provide a vulnerability because everything is already up front yeah so that's
that's kind of it there's no there's no centralized contract the the coin itself is a is a contract
itself uh and it kind of goes on to what i've been working on when you're when we're talking about
nfts and um you know just to go back to the basics really that that um you know like i say
everything's a coin everything's a coin and every coin is programmable so every coin can be its own
individual smart contract so if i create 300 nfts what i actually create create is 300 individual
smart contracts and when somebody buys that nft they actually buy the the whole
smart contract they own it you know there's no there's no tie back to uh any centralized entity
anywhere including including a smart contract so you know when i kind of realized this early on
in my cheer days i realized how powerful this could be because because what it does is it takes away that third
party uh and and we're kind of seeing that in the evm world right now where um when the
kind of the big guns want to come and play they don't want they don't want um like an escrow
service in the middle regardless of what it is so they you know, and there's no real way to do that.
Not even on Bitcoin, you can't do this because you,
like Bram was saying, the programming language is not up to it
and you can't create these kind of what we call offer files,
which enables this kind of atomic swap between two people.
And I think that's a really really really powerful narrative to get to get behind and um when i when i started thinking about
it and how how kind of gaming assets work now in the web 2 world how they kind of work in the web
free world in the evm type ecosystem and how they could be i could see a clear part of how
we could really make this a peer-to-peer sort of gaming world um and and i've kind of written this
um paper on on nft fusion is what we're calling it but essentially what we've got at the moment
in the web 2 world is um gaming assets you know, we all go on to these games and we buy different skins or we earn these different powers or weapons or skins for weapons, etc., etc.
And what kind of happens, as we all know, the game, you know, they upgrade the game and a new one comes out.
you know they upgrade the game and a new one comes out we lose all that we lose it all and
We lose all that. We lose it all.
i think the web 3 dream is that you can you can trade those or you can take them over to the next
game with you that type of thing um and i think that's kind of been achieved in a way certainly
certainly um sort of web 3 games are kind of going that way but i think um i think when it comes to what's happening with the existing web3 world
um there's there's still this kind of problem where um assets aren't as dynamic as they probably
could be and even the dynamic assets that are there they're um they're not they don't really
hold any provenance you the evm world either relies
on kind of oracles to do things which are you know can be manipulated or um you know you have
this effect where you burn the asset and you can't get into a new one and then you burn it and you
change it into a new one um and so what i set about doing was um enabling this these coins or these nfts to kind of um be stacked inside of each
other and retain all their provenance so so what we've done is we've we've well i say we but um we
have a a cheer list developer called lucky eight who created the cheer list for this and essentially what it is is the the nft itself um you can kind of combine them and manipulate
them but rather than kind of burning them or relying on any sort of oracles you kind of just
uh mint the new nft but you store all the parts of that old nft inside of the new one and they
kind of just sit inside there and they wait to be they wait to be like a
russian doll yeah a bit like a russian doll yeah and so they're kind of sat there waiting in this
limbo land to the point where you can um you can press a button uh or or call the contract and it
will release all those parts um so what you do is you you you maintain all the provenance that's that's
with these um with these assets um and and that that's kind of where my dream started was how do
we how do we do this so that the gaming world of the future um can you know keep these assets trade
them in a decentralized way um but not not in kind of the evm way where
you have to you have to put yourself or put your assets on the marketplace or a game has to host a
marketplace um but how do we do that on a peer-to-peer basis and uh and that's kind of what
we've done now we've we've created these these sort of dynamic nft standards that allows um that allows people or games or gaming environments or
gaming developers to create these assets and be able to let people trade them in such a way that
they don't have to be the escrow in the middle there is no kind of um you know there's no kind
of legal implementation there there's no kind of legal implementation there there's no kind of
legal problems where um if you're a game developer you create an asset uh and then you don't have to
act as the marketplace in in between um and also there's no smart contract in between so there's no
there's just no issues there so um that's kind of in a nutshell what nft fusion is
which is absolutely mind-blowing by the way um and first of all um your post at the top about what is nft fusion part one of five is a brilliant read i really enjoyed reading that and it was
honestly mind-blowing um and it was mind-blowing for a few reasons um one because
of everything you've just mentioned um two because i remember our first conversation that we ever had
where you talked about monkey zoo and what you aim to accomplish three um because we were really
fortunate to learn about cheer through um art with heart he was our first connection to it when he
went over there and learned about it and brought that back to um you know quite a lot of communities actually yeah a substantial amount of communities actually
um and really showcased it's what it what was possible um so to see that you've gone and
utilized that in the way that you wanted to and seeing how you've learned and and and basically
built this ecosystem around this you know around this new amazing technology.
But also there's a lot to be said as well for the spaces that you've hosted for a long time
and the educational material that you have created along the way
and how you've really tapped in with a lot of amazing people in the cheer
and outside of the cheer community to really bring this to people's attention and
showcase what's possible and how to utilize it. You know, it's not been hidden or token gated at
all. You know, you learn these things and you share it. And I think that that is really amazing
that you do that the way you do it and you've utilized this the way that you have. So I'd
strongly advise everyone that's listening, hasn't already, just to just go to the top,
to the Jumbotron and and go
and give that a read it's a brilliant read and it helps really break down in a really simplistic
manner to to understand it and if I can understand it then anyone can yeah I mean it's it's quite a
long read it's quite a long read we I decided to sort of produce some videos like a five-part video
which is sort of like five minutes each or so just to kind of sort of talk
through it as well.
But it does kind of go into a bit more detail and you know,
this is,
if you're curious,
stick it through chat GPT,
something like that.
And it'll give you a,
it'll give you a concise little answer about what it is.
But essentially it's,
it's something that's not really ever been
done before and and it's only with i can only sort of have dreamt of how this works um a couple
years ago and i can see grig is on the stage now as well and um grig grig's kind of been working on
um the fusion zoo which is the the kind of showcase of this technology and to sort of kind of showcase it.
And, you know, we're using it for this particular kind of use case.
Essentially, what we're doing is we have our monkey zoo characters.
We have these kind of they come with different attributes on them, et cetera.
We have different sort of oddments we call
them kind of like your mr potato head bits uh and and the idea is that you come into the fusion zoo
um you you kind of link your wallet and it will show you all the monkey zoo nfts that you hold
and what you can do is you can go into kind of this um this area where you can manipulate all the imagery
um so you can take you know a bit of one monkey and put it onto this this sort of template you
can take another bit from another one you can resize it you can flip them around you can um
um you could layer them up you basically got a lot of freedom of what you can do you can you can
create whatever you can create and and
the kind of the end process of that is all of the bits that you've used or all the monkey zoo nfts
you've used when you press the fusion button the fuse button they will all go into this contract
and it will spit out the other end into your wallet this new nft this new image that you've
created with all the bits from all your
other other nfts and inside that is just one giant smart contract like you say the russian doll
where inside there lives all the other parts and they all just sit in there and they're waiting
and then you can obviously you can now sell that nft obviously it might be valued more you can um
or you can come back in and you can defuse it and
take all those little bits out again and create something different um so there could be a scenario
where you know you've created this kind of masterpiece and there could be a couple of rare
items in there somebody might say well i don't want to i don't want to give you 20 xh for this
this nft but um if you defuse it i'll i'll buy just the hat and so you can kind of do that as well so
um that's kind of the idea that's going to showcase the technology um and um you know we
can only grow from there as such but um if you don't mind i'll throw it over to grig because
he's been kind of working on the fusion zoo um for last, well, I'm going to say a good part of two years and creating that.
But how did I do, Greg? Does that sound about right to you?
Yeah. Hi, guys. It's good to be here. I'm really interested in what you guys are doing.
It looks like a really good group of people in here. Community of communities. I love it.
Yeah. So just a real quick background from me
um i'm greg billam i've been doing tech lead for about 25 years both creative vision and
technical execution i designed and build a number of blockchain projects on chia including fusion zoo
trash formers mentor which is a free minting tool, and early on Green
Wings. I've been doing stuff on Chia since mid-22, 2022. Kind of lost track at this point.
I'm really passionate about this stuff, the decentralized technology to empower creators,
which is why I'm really happy to be in here. We really want to restore the autonomy
and ensure that we retain the ownership and fair compensation
for work.
And it's been a downward spiral for creators in general
for the last couple of decades.
And I really see Web3 as a solution for that.
So yeah, anyway, I'm also involved in a few other things. I'm an executive
director in a nonprofit focused on transforming the creative economy. And I have a few leadership
roles, including at the Metaverse Standards Forum. I'm a co-chair there working on digital
assets management. And I'm also a director at the XCH Foundation, which is focused on Chia.
So, you know, that gives you some background. I think the great thing about Fusion really is
it creates a new landscape for creators. So right now you can mix and match images from the Monkey
Zoo collection, but with the same technology we
can take it a lot further and mix different types of images different types of media
music and 3d assets all of these things can finally kind of come together and basically
creators and the passionate people behind the projects can actually use the creations to create a sort of historical evidence of
provenance and what they use to make each piece of art, which I think is really kind of a
kind of groundbreaking way of looking at it. One of the reasons creators do what they do and
keep doing what they do is that they believe that it's a way to leave a legacy while they're
on the planet. And there's no real better way to do that than a permanent storage solution with a
record of what's going on. So it creates new monetization models for artists. So instead of
just selling a single static NFT, creators can design systems
where their collections can be acquired and mixed together.
And so there's a lot of potential there.
And it kind of extends the use case
or the length of engagement
so that creators can work on the mechanics of something and add to their collections to add value to them.
So we're kind of seeing a lot of that happen.
And the work that I've been doing with Monkey Zoo on the Fusion Zoo has been a sort of the proving grounds
where we've been able to take all this technology for the first time and see it all in action and prove that it works and you know fine-tune and
clean up the UI UX part of it so that it's kind of I would say similar to like the online Adobe
suites now where you can drop layers in and move them around and rescale them and resize them and take a preview of it and save your changes for later and merge in new
NFTs and create, basically become an artist with the work that you've been given from other artists.
And, you know, it's definitely the way forward. I think we're just seeing the beginning of this.
And certainly this stuff has been happening on other chains.
Everybody seems to have their own version of it,
but they are all kind of in the early stages
where it's not actually something that can be implemented.
So one of the benefits of working with the Chia group
and Chia in general is the developers are so close
to the project that when something's needed, we can just ask for it to be added.
So I was kind of part of an early push to get some of the stuff that we're now using,
kind of help instigate and shape Chip 15 and Chip 21,
which were Chip 15 allows us to inject more metadata into an NFT.
allows us to inject more metadata into an NFT.
So it's not just the stuff that you would see on, you know,
on the EVM networks where it's basically a kind of flat amount of,
of information about traits and the basics about the collection.
Chip 15 allows us to do like individual parts of an, of a,
of the main part.
So you can actually define how those parts interact
with each other, where they place in the image themselves,
any of the rules for that.
You can add, instead of just the image,
you can have the video version of it,
the 3D file version of it, everything packed into a single NFT.
So these NFTs are basically much more useful. I think part of the
problem a few years back is, well, what's the use case? How do you make this into something that I
can do something with? And I think adding extra metadata and extra files to an NFT was the answer
to that. And chip 21 was the fusion chip, which kind of pushed us towards
having an open standard for mixing this stuff together. So it's been great to find a group
around a blockchain that will work so quickly to put this stuff together. I have to shout out the
rigidity. We worked with him to build out the Sage wallet, which is a phenomenal new wallet on Chia.
Part of that all came from working on the Fusion Zoo.
We hired rigidity to do a backend, what we call the enterprise wallet.
And that actually turned into the core technology behind the Chia wallet SDK.
I'm kind of proud about that.
So that became the foundation of an open source project for writing your own wallets. And so,
you know, we've been kind of working hand in hand with everyone in the community,
all the developers to build this stuff. And we're right at that point where it's possible,
And we're right at that point where it's possible.
You know, we've just been cleaning up the UI and the text done.
And now it's time to kind of unleash it into the world.
So, yeah, it's a good time.
Well, thank you for the amazing breakdown.
I mean, it's great.
I mean, just to go back to the beginning, you know, thank you for the kind words.
And we appreciate you allocating some
time to come and speak with us tonight um in support what you guys are working on um and it's
great to hear that you've got such a you know a track record and um you know many years of
experience in in this field and you can you can hear the passion in in your voice by you know how
you're talking about it and you can clearly hear you've got an amazing level of understanding
um and it's always really exciting to listen to people passionately speaking
about something that we're all interested in.
And you're really right in what you were saying as well in regards of NFT Fusion.
It's such a unique but brilliant concept that will really change the entire dynamics
of how projects can be built and how they can utilize this technology to
really make a profound impact um and it just reminded me just to touch back on what you were
saying earlier monkeys your um your basic breakdown of chia um i appreciate that because um you know
i'm not the man to kind of you know break down the difference in how the chia blockchain works
and how people are utilizing it in comparison to other chains.
So I just think you did a really great job of giving a brief abbreviation of the blueprint of Chia, really.
But just touching back to you, Greg, you know, it's you're absolutely right.
It is. It is so got such depth to this.
It has got such depth to this.
And it's great to see that it's being utilized by a great project
that it just seems to fit perfectly with.
And clearly, you guys have hit the ground running with this.
And it's great that you've not only managed to, you know,
really effectively utilize this technology with a great brand, may I add,
but also find a niche and a new avenue that I can see many projects utilizing this in the not so distant future for obvious reasons.
Yeah, I think, you know, the next step is really cross collection integration.
A lot of the work that I'm doing with the Metaverse Standards Forum is about open metaverse standards.
You know, one of the issues with the metaverse has been that everyone's running on a closed platform, and at that point, it's basically a game.
It's not this sort of open world experience.
And what's missing there is standards and a way to kind of moving towards that whole domain in a way where, you know, people really want to cater to their own style and you need a way to express that and how and explain things, you know, like, for example, if you're putting on a certain piece of clothing on your avatar? How does that connect to your avatar? How does the, you know, different elements?
And if you're bringing a pet to your world, you know,
how does the pet interact with you?
Like all of these things become constituent parts
that you might want to be able to move around between things.
The work that we did with the Trashformers is kind of exciting
because it is kind of moving in that direction
where we can use 3d objects and you can mix and match the 3d objects to create new trash formers
which are basically robots made of trash and the idea there is you just get this kind of rich world
of possibilities you know we can extend that world in any direction. And we've actually
kind of, I wrote an entire book, 25 chapter book on the details behind the Trashformers,
which is this sort of world building that was necessary in order to kind of extend the narrative
and allow people to get involved in it. And, you know, there are other technologies.
Lucky8 helped us with Fusion. He also wrote a couple of others. One that I really like is
called Inferno, which is essentially, we used it in Trashformers for converting your dumpster into
your Trashformer. So it was kind of like an unboxing experience where you buy an NFT, you don't know what it's going to have inside it until you convert it with the Inferno script.
And that's an on-chain colored coin kind of thing.
And that whole transformation, it performs an atomic swap between the two NFTs.
So you can only hold one at a time.
It's like very secure way of handling it.
And it also allows you to upgrade things.
So if we find that in the future, if the monkey zoo monkeys need to be 3D assets that are rigged so that you can use them as avatars in multiple metaverses.
We can just use the Inferno script to convert your static NFT to the new format in a one-to-one trade.
So there's this sort of upgrade path that's available.
So I really think that's exciting.
Obviously, there's some interesting stuff that can be done with secondary markets.
So if you've got an NFT and you buy a bunch of them, you mix them together into this master NFT.
One of the cool things about the Monkey Zoo project is each NFT has its own points or tokens.
So when you're holding them, you get redeemed in MZ tokens for, I guess it's a,
I don't remember the interval, but essentially you accrue MZ tokens for the longer that you hold an
NFT. And so there's this concept of being able to fuse them together and then sell them on the
secondary market as super valuable NFTs that
will accrue even higher amounts of tokens. The other part of this that we're working towards
is sort of the gaming side of it. So you have a set of rules for the game that can actually be
its own NFT too, incidentally. And then based upon the attributes of an NFT that you're playing,
like in a trading card game or any kind of game, really, you could kind of make a new character
that has new attributes that could win in certain circumstances. And so we're really interested in working on sort of balancing
the scores and what's possible when you're mixing the potential of different NFTs together as game
assets that you're basically making yourself. And then, you know, ideally you could win a bunch of games with this incredible new Fusion Zoo version of a game asset and then sell it for a higher value on the secondary market because you can prove how badass that particular game piece is.
So, you know, I just see this as sort of the very beginning of something that could be super exciting.
And I know the music world has also been really dying for this. That's the world that I came from. I started a music download,
digital download store about the same time that Gene sold his and the iPod came out in 2002 or
2004 around there. And we basically gave 70 or 80% of the proceeds of digital downloads to the
artists. So I've always been in that mode of trying to give artists back more than the basic,
basically what the dominators have been taking. And there's something missing from that whole
world, which has been a way to track provenance when you're doing a remix. So you may not know your favorite
superstar musician, but if they put up five NFTs as fusions that allow you to take those parts and
mix them into a new song, and then you can push that onto the chain, you've suddenly got this
proof of where it came from and a way for fans to track the evolution of a song and discover new artists.
And I think there's a huge amount of potential there. Obviously, music is an easy one to explain,
but I think that can be said for pretty much anything that's a creative endeavor.
Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right.'s it's so mind-blowing just when you you know
you just sit and ponder on that for a moment because it really does remove um any need for
any middleman or any centralization of any kind um and and that's just everything that we want we
all want web3 to stand for um just to be, you know, peer-to-peer
and have that, you know, that personal connection and that, you know,
that self-sovereignty.
It's an absolute game-changer when you think about it.
I think you're right there.
I think one of the early key kind of important parts about this
was to make it completely decentralized
or as decentralized as we possibly could all the way through.
And another thing we wanted to do as well
was to make sure that this was open source.
And I think that kind of leads on to the nature
of how Web3 probably should be i know i know it's not
always like that um but i think i think that's a good thing to do and i think you know the the
cheer world and the cheer kind of ecosystem and cheer lisp and and kind of this world is is probably
a little bit more difficult to get your head around when it comes to you know compare comparing
it to the evm world so it was kind of important
and the the kind of next steps we need to do um is to make it easier for people to use so um you
know we've made it open source but it's still you know there's still barriers there to to how you'd
use this um and i think you know what we my sort of goals and dreams are that um we kind of become
the experts in this field and we kind of take this to web to sort of game developers and uh and sort
of angle it that way i think i think um what i've kind of learned over the last few years is that within the Web3 world,
you know, it's very difficult to have a kind of a new technology and for people to care about it.
And, you know, most of the people and most of the kind of conferences I've been to or shows and things,
when it comes to kind of Web free gaming you know security is not an
issue for them it's all about it's all about speed and it's all about um you know i guess speed and
profitability um and i think i think that kind of goes against what we're supposed to be doing and
and we've built this technology on the back of some of the things that that chia does well the
fundamentals where you know you do have this kind of on-chain provenance and you have this on-chain permanence
and you have this sort of on-chain royalties and and i think what it can possibly do going you know
look into the future slightly is that um you know and i touched on it earlier that that that game is
game developers can potentially have another sort of two two or
three revenue streams on top of the models they've already got if you if you consider that their
their revenue streams at the moment are selling the game itself and then they kind of sell you
know in-game assets don't they they sell skins and things like that um but what they could do on top of that is they can have this
peer-to-peer on-chain royalties so every time something's sold there could be a small percentage
of that sale that goes to the game developers um and and i think to take it a step further
um you know there's potential when it comes to like chip 15 metadata and the way these nfts have
kind of loaded with full of information then if you wanted to take your gaming asset you know a call of duty skin to a fortnight
game then you know potentially there's a small fee to be paid there whether it's by the the game
developers or by the person themselves that wants to take this asset that they've worked hard for
across to another place you know there might be a small micro payment there and again that that's kind of done because if you think
about it each little nft each skin each um each small part of an nft can have its own kind of
smart contract so you know if you was to break it down into, I don't know, a Call of Duty rifle, for instance, a sniper rifle, you know, we all hunt for these sort of, you know, long range scopes or this special skin or, you know, whatever it may be.
But that actual weapon system could be made up of 10 different NFTs all fused together into this one NFT.
used together into this one NFT.
You could then break that down.
You could then break that down.
You could, you know, within the game environment,
you break that down and you could sell a piece of that rifle.
You know, there's the user then is kind of, you know,
rewarded via whatever, tokens, money.
And then so is the game developer as well.
So you're creating this world where not only are you benefiting the gamer,
but you're actually adding revenue streams to the game developers and those people.
So I think there's a lot to be done still.
You know, one of the caveats we've got right at the minute is that, you know,
the Chia blockchain in itself is relatively slow compared
to the you know the worlds of the solanas etc um so we are it is it is quite a slow process right
now but i think with the implementations of things like brands payment channels um future sort of l2
um sort of development on the chia blockchain, I think we're heading in the right
direction. And this kind of core technology is something that's really important. And I think
if we can encourage or enable more people to use it, the better. You know, I can see many,
many different avenues where this technology can be used
not necessarily even the art world you know um imagine imagine your kind of house deeds or
your car you know you you have something you have something done on your car and we've all
kind of talked about this you know an mot or your car is taxed um you know that nfd that nfd is stored within the nfd as such so
you know there's no um i guess kind of playing around with um sort of centralized contracts or
you know contracts that act as wallets it's the it's the core concept of the chia blockchain where
you have this top level security um with all this other power uh and we've just
kind of combined it all together and added another layer to it so yeah it's exciting times it really
is exciting times one of the key things i want to try and do once we've got this working working
prototype out um with the fusion zoo is to then go on the road and and start explaining this to
two game developers and the and and and
kind of more of the web 2 world rather than web 3 i think i think that's where um i think that's
where we should all be aiming our technology for uh towards uh and i think web web 3 gaming gets
banded around a lot and i think that's kind of a little bit of a um a misnomer really i think i think gaming is
gaming and and if we can create technology that benefits you know game players and game developers
then that's kind of where web 3 should be doing it should be angling themselves so anyway that's
my little rant about that i was going to just um um uh talk about kind of this provenance and the way that the fusion zoo kind of tracks the provenance as well.
Grig spent quite a lot of time creating a visual kind of aid and aspect of how we sort of, you can visualize what's inside of these fused NFTs as such.
So you'll kind of come into the fusion zoo and you can look at
one of your characters you might have bought from somebody else you might have created yourself
and you can click on that and what it does is it kind of does this um sort of flow chart of um all
the provenance that that fits within that nft so it'll show you you know what what monkey zoo
character this originally came from and it was fused with this one and it fused that one.
And because, like I said, right at the very start there, these coins are smart contracts.
So what you've done is if you fuse all these things together and create this fused NFT,
what you can also do is create another one completely the same with multiple different
nfts and you can fuse the two of them together so so ultimately you can create this kind of
infinite world of nfts that are all fused on top of each other and inside each other
and what you end up with ultimately is just one nft but inside that nft is multiple different nfts there could be multiple different fused nfts
it's it's it's kind of mind-blowing it really is kind of mind-blowing and it really opens the doors
to to something that that hasn't ever really been done before but um but have i explained that that
quite right greg the way that your um your um sort of provenance tracking works yeah i think that's correct it's
much easier to see it visually uh but yeah you can mix and match everything you basically lock them
into the contract when you create the new fusion nft and um if you wanted to you could break them apart at any point all the way down to
the originals so when you trade or collect something that's a fusion you're actually
getting all of the nfts that it came from as well
yeah yeah it's um yeah it's kind of mind-blowing and i think i think that kind of lends itself to
so many different areas of just just general world you know i i think um a good a good example would
be um i guess kind of just just uh many different sort of um uh obviously collectibles are a big one
but i think i think you could go into, you know,
with a bit more technology and a bit more privacy behind it,
but you could have your kind of medical records
stored inside these NFTs, you know,
all the documents are kind of fused into this one NFT
that's kind of impregnable.
Nobody can get access to it because essentially,
you know, the person holding that NFT owns the smart contract.
There's no back doors.
So, yeah, it's powerful stuff.
Yeah, one thing I'd love to at least chat about real quick is the sort of long term vision of all of this. So my nonprofit is building a distributed network of creators who
support each other. And part of that is really ensuring that creators maintain ownership and
receive fair compensation. It means helping them with good licensing and making sure royalties are
making sure royalties are enforced and built in.
And, you know, basically there's another much bigger picture going on here,
which is using blockchain to counter the exponential loss of autonomy in creative industries.
So, you know, we've been hit very recently with the latest version of chat GPT and certain artists have now become just reproduced ad nauseum at this point.
And there's really no tracking or way to actually account for that.
And part of what I think the future of blockchain can provide is a contract with these AI training systems
so that they only use the stuff that they're permitted to use
and that stuff is actually tracked properly.
I also think that we basically need to create an infrastructure
that's more, it just creates a better creative economy in general.
One of the things that I'm working on is a concept called
Forever Sites, which is basically a permanent digital preservation solution. So, you know,
we're addressing the crisis of digital extinction of creative works. I have people from many
generations, friends and artists who they put their lives work into something, and then they
don't pay a download or sorry, the fee to maintain their website, and it goes offline forever.
And there's been a sort of constant loss of work over time. And I think it really impacts the psyche
of a creator to know that if they don't pay a monthly fee or if they don't have
somebody to take care of it after they're gone, that that's basically the end of the line for
them. And that's where blockchain can be more than just something for immediate wealth. It can be a
way to preserve the creative works of our societies.
So we're ideally working towards this one-time payment model
instead of a recurring storage cost.
And we're trying to kind of preserve content
and the context of content, creating a cultural DNA,
if you will, and trying to drive the governance and, you know, push the laws in the right
direction while also giving them a way to work with creators.
And I think that's really where this is heading is doing a lot of the things that preserve
our heritage in a way that is going to outlive us all.
So, you know, that's where I see all of this really going. We're creating these building blocks,
but in the future, they'll be used for scientists
who are writing papers and authors and poets
and people who create 3D printable file solutions
and all of the modeling that goes into films and basically the whole
wealth of data stored in a way that can be retrieved by a future AI in 500 years or so
and reproduced in a new medium altogether. So I just wanted to throw that out there. I think what we're doing is just the first step on enabling the world in general. And, you know, so we talk about Web 3, Web 2, just the world in general having a way to know that what they're doing will finally have a resting place in history.
history yeah i appreciate the the the breakdown and the outlook on that um and i think you know
we'll have to have a conversation um on the back end about your you know your your non-profit
organization and i love the idea of that and i think you're absolutely right especially with
um you know with the way the ai is is developing and how that is impacting creators, you know.
I mean, I know, of course, a lot of people do utilize it as a tool, but at the same time,
it is having a huge impact and it would be great to protect and preserve the work of creative
individuals who are being, you know, negatively impacted. And the fact that there's a technology
there to potentially support that is amazing.
And it's also really promising as well
just to listen to you guys talk about this long-term vision
that we've had the pleasure of speaking to Tim
multiple times now over, probably way over a year now.
And it's great to see that you guys
have still got that same long-term vision.
And in fact, you've actually delivered a lot of the things that you said you were going to deliver and it looks like there's absolutely no intent in you guys slowing down which is just you know
phenomenal um and it's great to see that you know you guys have really built something amazing here
um and it's clearly got room for longevity and it's clearly having an impact.
you know,
and we're,
we're actually going to the,
uh, the cheer meetup in London on the 17th of April.
we're really looking forward to meeting you over there as well,
Tim.
I think that's going to be great to,
to see you in person.
I don't know if you're going there,
Greg,
it'd be cool if you are,
I'd love to meet you as well.
but we're definitely looking forward to,
to doing that because that's another element
to this isn't it that um you know the people like you guys who are so serious about what you're
building and really trying to you know elevate your ecosystem with this technology um and like
you touched on before about keeping it open source and you know making the the things that
you guys are learning readily available and even going as far as creating educational packages and content and and ways for which people can can digest this information in a
more understandable and simplistic manner which helps people like me get a better understanding
of it because you know just from my own personal perspective I'm super passionate about the
industry and although I may have been learning about it over the last four years I still feel
like I know absolutely nothing.
But I absolutely love the facts because I need to be an expert.
I'm just here to learn, enjoy the technology, make content about it, showcase it.
And I hope, you know, tell the world about it and, you know, find the real people making an impact, whether they are, you know, veterans of the industry or whether they are you know people that
are new to the industry and want to you know find a place where they belong
yeah i completely agree um yeah i don't i don't agree to the flight of london for a couple of
hours but um i'm certainly going to be down there i'm taking my good lady down with me this time as
well so it's going to cost me a fortune, I'm sure.
But, yeah, no, it's been, you know, it's been really fun the last few years.
Learning this kind of technology is kind of, it kind of ignites something.
You know, there's this world where, you know,
all these things that I've kind of thought about before and thought well you know this this doesn't really work how
i want it to do or this this doesn't look like it could possibly work this way um and you kind
of see this future where um well this could really work so um you know once we once we've
kind of got this fusion zoo up and going um the next stage is to then produce a kind of a TCG game that kind of highlights and uses some of this technology as well.
And, you know, it's kind of a showreel to people looking in that, you know, we can we can go and pitch this technology and um to to sort of industries and and say well
here's how it works and this is exactly how it works because it's working now and it's kind of
this decentralized way of doing things people are people are using it right now and you can see that
this person's just fused all these nfts together um and then if you kind of explain that you know
these nfts don't have to be pictures of monkeys, you know,
they can be whatever you can dream of. You know,
I see there's a whole world of possibilities out there. So, and I just,
I, you know, I said this earlier, but, but it is about,
it's about people thinking outside the box. Now it's about thinking about
really what you can, what you can do with a um
you know all these individual you know decentralized decentralized owned by people
these smart contracts and i think it's i think it's such a powerful concept and um you know we're
never going to be able to keep up with the um you know the web 3d gen world because um you know
that's just that's a crypto
twitter world but i think i think the real world does care about these things and they do care
about kind of security and um you know nobody wants to have to click on a link and lose all
their nfts um so i think when you when you kind of combine all this and you can start looking at how these kind of vaulted
wallets work uh in such a way that you can you can really securely look after your stuff um to to
to kind of combat pretty much any any any problems there are out there right now you know to the to
the point where you could um you can re-key your wallet in a secure way if somebody you know
kind of uh what they call it a wrench attack you know somebody comes and grabs your seed phrase
takes your stuff away you've got this vault set up where they can't remove things um for so many
hours or um you know they can go away after beating you up and taking your crypto wallet but you can just
uh you can re-key it and sort of claw back all your stuff so you know i think there's there's
so many different aspects and and this is all really because of the the core things that the
chia chia inc has built you know and bram was kind of saying earlier about how um you know they they build this this sort of core
technology uh and then it's kind of us as sort of community people to to look at this and then think
well how can we do this or can we can we do this can we add this on top of that or uh and i think
there's a lot more of that to come um but yeah i'm certainly looking forward to london and i'm also off to um toronto in may
there's a there's a big cheer meetup in in toronto in canada in uh middle of may and so i'm going
over there for a few days to kind of meet all these people that i've i've been talking to for
the last i don't know last few years uh and and you know um go and say hello and shake their hand
so uh it's going to be really
interesting and meet bram and gene as well at the same time so um yeah i think gene's coming across
to london isn't he um mickey yes he is doing yeah um which is awesome um are you going to be meeting
dracatus over in in canada yes yeah i believe uh beef cracks going. Awesome. Speaking of Drac, he's been working hard for the last few years.
He's detoured off and done a few other bits,
but he's a Ducatus project,
and he's launching that today, I think, isn't it?
So I think after this space,
he's probably going to be hosting a space,
and people will be able to go into the ducatus
world and start and start figuring that out and playing with the things uh uh i've got i've got
a few of his nfts i'm going to go and play around with that as well so and i think i think um things
like the ducatus world where you're you're you're breeding and you're creating new nfts um he's
kind of done it on uh more of a centralized way of doing things but if he was to implement
this fusion technology you know you you've got this he sort of suddenly created this game
environment where um where all the assets retain all their provenance and um you can kind of see
the history or you you can sort of reverse the history as well so yeah there's there's there's lots to come there's lots
to come so yeah we're um uh so inside the monkey zoo world the the the sort of order of what we're
doing right now is um the the sort of main main net fusion launch fusion zoo launch then we're
creating a different way for um uh people to sort of claim their monkey zoo tokens.
And Greg kind of touched on this.
With every NFT or monkey zoo NFT, there's kind of an MZ number.
And that number dictates how many monkey zoo tokens that you're rewarded every day that you hold that NFT.
every day that you hold that nft so currently we we kind of airdrop your total amount of
monkey zoo tokens out to you on a weekly basis but what we're going to transform that to is a
way that you can come into the monkey zoo website kind of log in you know where you see all your
fusions and kind of see how many monkey zoo tokens you've accumulated over you know however long you want
to do whether it's a day whether it's a month or six months whatever uh and you can come in and
sort of press that button to come and claim your token so that that's the that's the next stage uh
and then we're on to the tcg game so to kind of prove out the the actual gaming gaming sort of
environment for this technology so yeah we're not stopping just yet we're not stopping just yet we've got another busy year
ahead of us um which hopefully you know um kind of by the end of the year i'm going to be
in a position where i can showcase this technology like i say to to potential investors um and then
and then go to go to what i like to call the the very next stage which is
just to touch on um uh using using um kind of chia chia's data layer um create some form of system
that that can um kind of look at look at all the games in the world look at all the assets in the world uh and kind
of map where they are so what that will allow is um you know people uh environments uh technologies
to to kind of see where these nfts are living at any particular one time so you know if it's
a kind of metaverse or uh you know the way i see a metaverse is that
it's kind of encompassing of all games and all what we call metaverse kind of platforms now so
one one giant metaverse um so i think there's i think there's a way to kind of use data layer
um to kind of track all these assets um which will then allow things like ai to to be able to um like rick was
saying there how you how a different gaming you know a graphical structure within a game
can cope with different assets that you know obviously look slightly different when they come
from game to game um you know i think that i think ai will be there within the next couple of years to to assist us
on how we how we can take an asset from one game to the other and still make it look you know like
it belongs in the new game it goes to so yeah there's there's there's i've got plans for the
next few years put it that way yeah no that's awesome um and there's a few things that you
just touched on that uh i want to i was
i was thinking about um i'll go back as far as i can remember so um he was talking about uh dracatus
earlier uh we're actually going to be going to his space after this one um and we'd love it if you
could come with us and go and show some support to him because he is a phenomenal individual
built some amazing things um and i we have a little backstory with him ourselves i've known
him for quite a few years now um he actually gifted me uh my first ever nft so the first nft i ever
i ever owned um was given to me by him um a few years back so it's great to see that he's still
been building the same ecosystem that ties back to that nft so i thought that was pretty awesome
um you also mentioned
something really interesting earlier that i just wanted to make sure i remember to pull back because
i thought it was really important and very well put about um about what people really care about
um and i think that it's it's great to see that you really do care about that and about the fact
that that you really are paving the the the way for for the future people to utilize this technology
in regards of what people should care about.
And just as an example, there's a guy we know called The Hill,
and he's got an ecosystem built around coral reef restoration.
Now, I never used to care about coral at all,
not because I didn't care about the world,
because I didn't really know about it, didn't't understand it i didn't realize its importance and its significance um until we learned about it and
now that we know about it and we've learned about it we we really care about it and you just touched
on that in regards of the tech world like people don't really know to care too much about cyber
security for example because they come from web 2 where things are already in place there's a
lot of safety there's fallbacks there's places to complain and you know things that you can report
and try and retrieve your funds and but this is a lot different and cyber security needs to be at
the forefront um and it's important that that's taught along the way um and you just touched on
that really beautifully um and also the fact that you know you've been building all this time as well which is um astounding by the way and it's great that you've kind of
really you know progressed forward with the tech and it's also brilliant that you're going to these
events as well um and meeting people in person um which we think has a profound effect um like
the community community core team for example we've uh we've met quite a few times
now uh in person but we've connected for years um you know and we've established a great connection
and we've networked with some amazing people since and it's and you know just having that
person to person you know connection really does change the dynamics of how a network can grow in
strength um and you know we're probably going to do that in april we're going to meet in person
we've spoken many times over the last year or so um and it's great that
you're going to canada as well and you're going to meet drac that's awesome i'm kind of jealous
but uh happy for you at the same time yeah there's there's there's lots of people you know that i
need to i need to kind of thank and shake their hands because um you know, this is kind of all – I'm not a developer.
Just me.
You are, sorry?
Okay.
No, so I'm not a developer myself.
You know, I kind of have these visions and I guess I've got this kind of entrepreneurial streak within me.
So I do rely on sort of trusting people really and um
and grig uh and and clyde who used to be at nftr you know these guys i completely trust you know
they've uh they've gone above and beyond um you know what i've what i've kind of paid them uh
over the last couple of years to to create this this technology so um um yeah it'd be it'd
be great to sort of see these people and uh uh you know buy them a drink i suppose is the is the is
the british thing to do isn't it so um but yeah i think i think you're right i think um i i think
there's you know when we kind of look back at the, say, the last sort of five, six, seven years of what
we call Web3, and if we look back at it, would we possibly change some things? I think we probably
would. And I think that's one of the beauties of the Chia project is that, you know, they have had
these five, six, seven years of hindsight. So they can kind of look and say, well, you know,
years of hindsight so they can they can kind of look and say well you know bitcoin's great
it's really secure but you know it uses the same power as some small countries so you know maybe
that's not a great idea um you know ethereum smart contracts brilliant fantastic but you know
the solidity side of things isn't secure enough you know if you can if you can click on a link
and your wallet gets drained then that's not a solution that the the rest of the world wants to use is it so i think having the
hindsight is is a a really key factor um that the i guess the the core chia principles um are sat
behind so um yeah i'm really i'm really kind of proud of what we've done done today and um you know i've
got i've got a list as long as my arm for for future future things i want to do as well so
there's um there's plenty in the pipeline should we say
yeah no you're absolutely right on that and that's a really good point actually um about
having that hindsight um and i know and but it's great to hear that you have people that you can work with that you trust
that you can build with um and that you've established that that that team with because
that is you know really important and it is really difficult in an industry like this um because you
know trust is one of those things that you can spend you know decades building with someone and you can lose it in an instant so it is it's very precious and
very difficult to acquire but it's great that you've been able to establish a good team to
help you build but you have got a great vision and a great hindsight yourself you know you've
got a lot of experience you've got good people around you you know you're building in the right place with great tech um clearly because you know you've even able to revolutionize on a
revolutionary blockchain which i just think is absolutely amazing and i'm really excited for you
to see how you know how that plays out and how people are going to see how you've utilized it
and i think that'll really help you guys get the respect that you deserve for the work that you've put in and the accomplishments that you guys have acquired over this time.
I appreciate the kind words. I really do. Yeah, it's it takes time. You know, it's taken
it's taken much longer than I kind of anticipated. But, you know, somebody said to me quite early on
that, you know know doing things that
have never been done before is pretty pretty difficult so um you know and i think i think
that's testament to kind of grig in a way that he's he's plowed through this and like i say he's
gone above and beyond there's there's so many kind of um um blockers that you have to kind of put through, you know, and so much of the technology wasn't really ready when we started this.
You know, there was issues kind of and there's still issues with things like Wallet Connect and things like that.
But what it's kind of done as well is is um it's kind of sparked a lot of
other things in the community like um like like we say we we kind of we we got the ball rolling
on the new sage wallet that's going out there um you know this the the uh inferno type uh contract
we we had made as well for something we wanted to do which is which is quite a cool little it's
quite a simple little uh kind of concept really
the idea being that that it's a kind of a one for one trade but when you when you the receiving so
so for example um if if i've gotten it off you if you've got an nft and i give you an upgrade of that
nft what would usually happen within chipper offer files
is there'd be an atomic swap so i would give you the upgraded one and you'd give me the downgraded
one um but what we didn't want to do was for those nfts to come back to me so so what happens with
inferno is um i give you the upgrade but the the downgraded version goes straight to the burn address um so what that kind
of does is you know it infernos this nft and again that's that's kind of my ethos is that
if there's a way to decentralize things and take and take me out the equation that's that's that's
much better for everybody so uh yeah yeah i do like that touch um because it just it just it just creates more peer-to-peer, doesn't it?
And it creates that more individuality and the sovereignty again.
So that is a great touch.
And I think it's interesting as well because you touched on,
there's a slight difference on how Drak's built with the, you know,
and it's interesting with the different perspectives because, you know,
not everything has to be decentralized in certain areas.
But in some areas, I think it's absolutely essential.
And it's great when you can establish when that is necessary and really capitalize on it to its fullest to really put the power in the hands of the people utilizing these things.
Because, again, it comes back to the trust element, you know, nine times times out of ten probably 9.9 times out of
ten isn't the the tech that's failing the industry it's the people misusing the tech um so it's great
that you're creating a way for that not to be possible if if that makes sense yeah exactly
exactly and i think um you know i think the the evm world is rife with it, isn't it? Where, you know, the dev has got hold of the tokens or the dev has got this, the dev has got control of that contract.
You know, if you think the way that EVM works, essentially an NFT collection is a centralized contract that anybody can interact with.
centralised contract that anybody can interact with and when anybody can interact with that
they can find holes in it and you know just look at kind of North Korea and the recent kind of
hacks they've done all over the place and you've only got to put in the look at the timeline any
any particular day somebody will have had something stolen you know from these kind of centralizing contracts so i think i think it's
such a powerful concept and and uh you the concept of just people owning these smart contracts nobody
nobody really needs to know their smart contracts what they really all they really need to know is
that they own this thing they really own it you know there's no there's no middleman there's no there's
no kind of uh interacting with anything in between anything you know once when it's in your wallet
it's there you know the the image the metadata the contract everything is owned by the person
who actually who actually owns it and i think i think i think that's really powerful. And when you combine that with kind of Bitcoin level security and, you know, a much kind of more secure smart contracting environment, you've got a recipe for something really good.
So I kind of want to see more and more people kind of realize this and jump in and start playing with things.
And most of the core stuff has been developed
by cni so you really don't have to do a great deal and um you know there's there's so many more
developers creating things like yak and rigidity and there's kind of in the pipeline now there's
there's different kind of what they call chips which is sort of cheer improvement proposals which um can read like 721 evm contracts and things like that so
the the environment's only going to get bigger and more more um easier to use should we say
so but we've we've battled through for the last few years and um and grig is grig is the man when
it comes to uh understanding this much much in a much much more deeper level than i am i kind of go into meetings and say well um can we do this and
uh he'll go away and come back a few days later and go uh it might be possible so
yeah and he's probably only saying that because it's like he knows it is possible it's just can
fit that into my schedule yeah he's a busy man he's a busy man he's uh yeah he's got uh i think um you know you should
you should definitely get grig on uh on here on his own sometime because um yeah the things he's
doing with the metaverse forum um i think is you know an amazing amazing sort of thing to get involved with
I don't know
Greg if you want to just touch on that for a few
I don't know how long we've got left Mickey but
it's probably worth five minutes of Greg
just kind of explaining what the Metaverse
forum is. Yeah no definitely
we can definitely allocate for that and then
we'll bring it round to a close after
that so we can jump over to
Drakatis' live I don't think he's live just yet i've just i've been keeping an eye on
it so i'm not sitting live yet but no we can definitely allocate for that 100 fire away greg
thank you but yeah we'll definitely have to get you scheduled on for a for a full show of yourself
because that would be brilliant yeah i'd be happy to um and thanks tim for the kind words i appreciate that um and additionally
maybe we will meet in person if i can convince you to show up for nft nyc um which we've been
uh invited to do a talk a panel with uh seth jenks who created the Chia Friends, who is also part of the Trashformers project.
They invited us to talk about the future of art and NFTs.
And they require four people.
So it's going to be Elliot, who did the artwork, myself and Seth, and ideally, Tim.
You can make yourself available and make your way to the States for the first
time, I believe.
That'd be great.
But yeah, the Metaverse Standards Forum is basically a body that works with all of the
other large entities that are out there, either building Metaverse platforms themselves or
are somewhat involved in the technology behind it. So NVIDIA and Vulkan
and a bunch of big players, they're all kind of on there. And if you go to the Metaverse Standards
Forum, you can see this very long list of logos that you'll recognize. But essentially, the idea
is that there needs to be a standard for the open metaverse to actually work.
And right now there isn't one.
If you look at what is going on with avatars in terms of NFTs, right now, if you look at the actual metadata behind it all, for example, you'll find that they're all different.
And that makes it really hard for a platform to support a chain and the NFTs on it.
So that just kind of outlines one aspect of it.
There's so much to being an open standard like that,
but essentially that's what it's all about.
And yeah, I'd be happy to talk about that in more detail,
but I don't wanna keep everyone longer
than they want to be here. that's totally fine you know thank you so much for uh for breaking that down for us and
and giving us the info on that uh we honestly appreciate it but um you know yeah it's been
an absolute honor um and yeah bacon welcome back as well i saw that you had to jump out and back
and again i know that x can can be that sometimes. I don't know if there's anything you want to respond to
what Greg was saying,
or if there's anything you want to touch on
from the last part of the conversation.
No, not really.
Obviously, I missed pieces of it.
But yeah, dude, guys, keep smashing it, man.
We've been along for your journey for a little while,
and yeah, we wanna we want
to see it continue and obviously um you know we wish you the best with uh with everything that
you're you're trying to achieve overcome your hurdles and uh yeah keep smashing it guys keep
smashing it let's go thanks for letting us be here. Appreciate it. Yeah, no, it's an absolute honor.
And it's been amazing to listen to you guys talk about, you know, what you've built, what you're building, the longevity of it, you know, the long-term vision, what you've accomplished, you know, your purpose.
And it's great to hear you building with good intention to help further this technology and help it reach people in a way where they can really learn from it and play with it.
Because like you were saying before, Tim, in regards of, you know, making it user friendly and helping people be ready for how this can be utilized. And just when he was touching on earlier with being able to use, you know,
avatars in multiple environments,
I have thought a lot about it myself.
And, you know, I think there's probably going to have to be
something in the middle of every one of these
different gaming organizations
that kind of OKs the different avatars.
I imagine that different games will have different rules of
what they will and won't want to see in their environment so i always thought that you know
there may be one environment where people have got explicit clothing or something and other
environments might not like it so there probably have to be some sort of centralization around it
but i do think that that is something that the whole world wants to say you know many people
play different games and they have got different assets in different
places and you can't do anything with it outside of that.
So it would be cool for that to be, for that to change.
It would definitely make it exciting.
And I think it's great to see that blockchain and Web3 really does
accommodate that.
But what you guys have done with Fusion, prime example.
Yeah.
I just want to mention there's another project that I'm working on at MVMD.org,
which is basically recipes for merging the different standards together. It also uses
schema.org. But, you know, I've sat on calls with the engineers at Pixar talking about their USD standard.
And they have this avatar format
that has huge amount of additional data,
much higher fidelity when it turns out,
in terms of what an avatar can look like.
Like for example, where the wrinkles occur on,
on clothing or on the skin, like the, the movement and, you know, much more detail in terms of
how a character emotes and things like that, that aren't possible in other formats. And
so the MVMD standard is a way to mix these together so that if you're
running on a platform that can honor the USD standard and its high fidelity, Pixar level
quality, you know, for true cinematic experiences, you can do that. And in the same file, in the same NFT, for example, you would be able to look up the data for a much lower resolution one that's kind of the stuff that's being moved around in, you know, spatial or some of those other early metaverse platforms that aren't really ready to perform because they're not requiring massive GPUs
or anything like that.
But yeah, so that's one of the things
that's kind of exciting about finding a standard
is that you could move between these platforms
and depending on the resolution they can handle,
they can choose a different format.
So just wanted to throw that out there.
It's kind of exciting what Pixar has been doing.
Yeah, that was incredible. Thank you for sharing that. So exciting and so eye opening as well.
And it's great that you are, you know, you're in a position which must be awesome for you,
especially with this being something you're so passionate about, where you're able to tap into these different things and build these things and see them come to fruition
and also utilise the level of experience that you've acquired to further what you're able to accomplish.
And with your experience ever evolving and the tech ever evolving,
it's great that you've found cheer, which just sounds like one of the greatest places for you to be
with the level of experience that you've got and the network that you've accumulated over that time as
well but i will definitely um send over our space form to you it would be great to have you um
on in the future um we will also be getting um gene hoffman back on in the future as well um
we're currently speaking on the back end to reschedule him for another time because i know We will also be getting Gene Hoffman back on in the future as well.
We're currently speaking on the back end to reschedule him for another time because I know he was supposed to be here tonight.
But it was amazing that Bram was able to come.
What an amazing man he was.
It's been such a fantastic space and we really do appreciate you guys
for coming and speaking for so long and to everyone in the audience
for listening as well.
Yeah, dive in there, Bacon.
Yeah, don't
forget tomorrow uh we are putting on a concert uh in a virtual environment uh with our friends
keyjan at body and collaboration with zowl um we're gonna put on a uh yeah a live event next
week so tomorrow like rsvp's pinned at the top so you'll take your time in your in your time zone
yeah definitely thank you bacon uh yeah we're super excited about that um it's going to be an
amazing event it's taking place um in spatial in the salty sharks uprising auditorium environment
um rob cannelly the founder has been an absolute legend and supported the
collaboration of the Community Communities and The Zao, which is an amazing ecosystem for
musicians to help them establish themselves in Web3 and build a brand around themselves,
help them learn how to, you know, be organised and structure their whole music career with
many other amazing attributes. But Atabate is a phenomenally
gifted artist, is a producer, a composer, is a multi-instrumentalist as well with many other
skill sets and him and his wife do not only audio but visuals as well and then we've got Klee Jan
who is a trap violin player who is incredibly gifted he's always touring all around the US
and lots of other places as well and he's doing very well on social media at the moment as well
he's got a few million followers across all of his socials and he's going to be streaming it
live over on TikTok to his 1 million followers over there so it's going to be a really cool
event and we're super excited about it like Birkin said it is pinned at the top this is going to be the first one of uh many uh metaverse events that
we do um so it's definitely a piece of history for us as well but uh did you want to touch on
something else there bacon oh sorry i was just i was just scratching the niche uh yeah no worries
but no thank you bacon you're a legend and that yeah
but yeah we will get some closing remarks from um from you tim um so if there's anything you
want to close out on um the stage is yours my friend yeah no um yeah i really appreciate uh
you having us uh up on your up on your platform and um we'll definitely be back as we as we
continue to build so um
yeah keep your eye out for um for the fusion zoo that's that's literally just around the corner now
so um um you know if you've not put yourself some monkey zoo assets um you probably should get hold
of some so uh you can start utilizing these um and you know there's there's there's plans ahoy
we've got um we've got i've got another
five to ten years worth of plans for you there greg so uh and ny uh new york uh i don't know
well i'll have to look at the calendar but uh yeah i'd love to go that'd be that'd be really
good really good but yeah i appreciate you having us anyway no it was an absolute honor and you know
thank you for coming back and help supporting our platform because that's one of the things that you know we're super passionate about as you know
is we want to be a place people can come to talk about the you know the hundreds if not thousands
of hours of hard work you've put into something that you're extremely passionate about so you
know we appreciate you helping us further understand you what you've built cheer and the
amazing tech that people are able to um readily utilize and
learn about so thank you uh so yeah thank you for that tim we look forward to meeting you in april
um and greg as well if you've got any closing remarks my friend you're more than welcome to
and again thanks again for coming up on the stage and now we hopefully look forward to having you
on a space of your own in the not so distant future sounds great thank you guys have a good evening or morning yeah web3 never sleeps so we never
really know whether it's more than an evening but no thank you um crypto tour i don't know if
you're i know you're normally doing 17 different things all at once so if you're able to say any closing remarks you are welcome to sir absolutely yeah amazing space love
listening to what monkeys use got going on all the fusion and all I look forward
to a you know is building further and yeah amazing space I've actually a pinned
our form in the comments below if anyone wants to join our spaces fill out the form
oh fantastic yeah thank you tony appreciate that brother but yeah definitely and that goes out for
anyone in the audience if you've got a project if you're building um if there's something you feel
is worth talking about definitely drop down it's only a short form will take a couple of minutes
helps us do our due diligence um then we can reach out to you,
and we can get you on and speak to you guys
the same way that we have spoke to
Brian Cohen and Tim and Grig tonight.
So that being said,
thank you very much.
We do really appreciate you guys.
We will be back same time tomorrow,
but this time in the metaverse.
The link is pinned.
If anyone has any questions,
please feel free to reach out to any of us
or any of the core team.
And, yeah, a massive thank you to all you guys tonight.
It's been amazing.
And we will be back same time tomorrow.
So, yeah, on that note, thank you, everyone.
We do really appreciate your legends, and we will catch you tomorrow.
Take care.
And we will be going over to Drakatis' X space in just a moment.
So it will be great to see you guys over there
they're again hard-working amazing people have been building for a long time so the more support
they can get the better because this is the way that we take web3 to the next level is we have to
support these developers that are paving away and are building the things that we are all passionate
about it's the only way to combat the darker side of the industry.
So keep doing your thing, keep building, stay positive,
and always follow your purpose.
Thank you very much, guys, and we will catch you next time.
Revolution Founder
Pape the way, legal order
Miss Evie's Brace his mental health like clean water Tuesdays, row round lines Revolution Founder Pape the way, legal order Miss EV Spaces
Mental health like clean water
Tuesdays roll round lines
Get soothin' corner
A sanctuary found in digital armor
Community of communities
We rise
X Spaces buzzin' truth ain't disguised
Friday Saturdays voices
Zip and fly
Together we're strong, unities are tied
Thy revolution, words like heavy artillery
Bacon sandwich co-hosts, the mental artillery
Late in the week, eggs march our territory
Stories unfold, shaking our narrative, no allegory
Community of communities, we rise
Egg spaces, us and truth, a disguise
Friday, Saturdays, voices amplify Communities, we rise. Headspace is ours and truth ain't the skies.
Friday, Saturday, these voices amplify.
Together we're strong.
Communities, our guy.
