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What happens when we supercharge RWAs with AI?
Recorded: May 7, 2025 Duration: 1:00:40Space Recording
Short Summary
The conversation delves into the intersection of real-world assets (RWAs) and AI, exploring their potential to transform the crypto landscape. Key topics include the growing trend of tokenization, partnerships with major financial institutions, and the implications for liquidity and investment opportunities.
Full Transcription
Music Thank you. hello hello good morning everyone well you guys are having a wonderful Wednesday thus far, and hopefully we're about to make it even better.
But guys, thank you so much for showing up early. Let's go ahead and kick it to the mic check.
Ladies and gentlemen in the audience, if you can hear me right now, please let me know with some thumbs ups, with some hearts, with some kind of indication that the audio is in fact reaching you all right now.
in fact reaching you all right now thank you lance cj always good to see you thank you so much
let's see here just wait on one or two more i think we should be good
all right i think we're good uh we got we got artem confirming as well thank you artem
thank you guys so much all right guys uh please give us just a couple of more minutes here just to get everything set up on the panel. But
in the meantime, please head on over to the bottom right hand corner. Give us a like comment
and retweet on today's basis and we will be starting in just a few more minutes. Let's go. You can never know what it's like
You plug like a winter freeze
It's just like ice
And there's a cold, lonely light
That shines from you
You wind up like the wreck you hide
Behind that mask you use
And did you think this thing to never win?
Well, look at me, I'm coming back again.
I got a taste of love in a simple way.
And you need to know while I'm still standing, you just fade away.
And don't you know I'm still standing better than I ever did.
Looking like a true survivor.
I'm feeling like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm still standing, yeah, yeah, yeah I'm still standing
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Once I never could hope to win
You're starting down the road and leaving me again
The threats you made were meant to cut me down
And if my love was just a circus
You can be a clown by now
Don't you know I'm still standing, yeah, yeah, yeah
I'm still standing, yeah, yeah, yeah Thank you. I'm still standing after all this time
I'm waking up the beaches of my life without you on my mind
I'm still standing, yeah, yeah, yeah
I'm still standing, yeah, yeah, yeah
I'm still standing, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yo what's going on everyone welcome back to xdc the evm compatible layer one blockchain
powering payments rwa steep, and so much more.
My name is Ice, and I will be your host for today's show.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, first of all, welcome back to all of our friends and family who traveled to Dubai over the past week.
We sure missed you, and trust me, you guys did not make it easy.
And trust me, you guys did not make it easy.
The posts all over the TL was inducing an incredible amount of FOMO, to say the least.
But for those of you that did attend, parties and celebrations aside, there was a lot of discussion, a lot of talk surrounding both RWAs and AI.
And to be fair, both of these have been quite the talk of the town on Twitter as well.
But when these conversations start happening at in-person events, we get a much better idea of
what people are actually interested in and what builders are spending their time on. And today,
we're going to be discussing exactly why this is. What happens when we combine RWAs with AI?
Let's talk about this, guys.
But first, let me check in with my co-host, team member, and ecosystem development manager at XDC.
What's up, Lance? How are you doing today?
Good, man. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.
Excited for the conversation, man.
Yeah, absolutely.
Did you actually have the chance to travel to Dubai?
What was your past week like, Lance?
No, unfortunately I didn't.
But I am going to Consensus in Toronto next week.
So I've been prepping for that.
We've had some artwork stuff that we're working on for, you know,
new shirts and stuff for the event that we think is going to be a hit.
So I've been working on that,
just getting last minute detail stuff worked out for that,
events that are going to be happening after events, you know, all that stuff.
Plus, you know, the daily stuff that I work on at XTC Foundation. So it's been pretty
busy lately, for sure. I can imagine, man. But Toronto, that's awesome. Welcome to my home turf.
Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. I'm based off from here. Yeah. But what goes into, I'm assuming it's
overseas or some kind of longer flight, right? So what goes into the preparation prior to attending an IRL event?
What are you doing to prepare yourself, Lance?
Instead of, what are we preparing for the company, but what are you doing for yourself, Lance?
Yeah, that's a good question.
Thankfully, I don't have to do it alone.
I mean, I have quite a few colleagues that are awesome at their jobs
at XCC Foundation and other teams around the network that support us in other ways.
You know, but a lot of it is, you know, for instance, planning after the event, you know,
side events, stuff like that, you know, getting guest lists together, making sure we're inviting,
you know, good people maybe that we want to work with or that we want to target, you know, doing some digging on who's going to be
there, what type of speaking engagements there's going to be, what projects are going to be there.
Are there any projects there that we would like to, you know, talk with, or maybe that we would
like to bring onto the network or that we would like to work with in some way? Okay, let's dive
into what, you know, what specifically do we want to you know work
on with them right um we don't want to just kind of show up and start you know talking about whatever
right we want to be strategic in what we're doing uh take good advantage uh or opportunity of our
time um and then just helping out other colleagues as well right on what they're working on like for
instance the artwork stuff like swag stuff if we're going to have that.
You know, there's a lot that goes into it.
Communications, right?
Like, what are we going to put out on socials?
What type of, like, reading material or digital content do we want to have out there to support the event?
You know, there's a lot of stuff that goes into it,
but thankfully, I don't have to do it alone.
That certainly does sound like quite a handful to
prepare for but it's it's nice to know man your team is coming in with a solid battle plan
and i think there's one thing that i learned from my last irol trip last year is that um
and this is going to sound really redundant compared to what uh it's going to sound vastly
inferior to the list of stuff that you just mentioned lance but one of the things i actually
found very impactful was um was like small small
time merch specifically stickers like after the trip was over i found myself like going through
the loot box as we all do when we come back from trips and i gotta be honest man one of the things
that really stuck in my mind were just the stickers of the of the events that you attended
you know pfps of all of different people that you meet different brand logos yeah man like these
and it sounds kind of uh sounds kind of ridiculous but at the end of the day it's what
we remember after it's over not specifically what made us yell and dance the craziest when we were
there right yeah and like a point to make on that too is like you know the approach that i like to
take and that we've kind of taken you know with success really is um you know the approach that I like to take and that we've kind of taken, you know, with success really is, you know, the artwork that we like to put together, we spend quite a bit of time on that,
you know, because we get a lot of great feedback at all the events. Like, everybody loves the
artwork stuff that we put out. And, you know, the main thing that you want to accomplish with that,
right, is like getting the attention of people, you know, I mean, you want to spark conversation,
it doesn't necessarily have to have some sort of deep message, I guess, or whatever, right? Like, if it's visually appealing,
you know, it's related somewhat to what you're doing, and then it sparks the conversation,
you know, mission accomplished. And like shirts that we've had have been very successful,
you know, at events. So yeah, I agree. And like stickers also is a thing, like, maybe it's just
me, but I'm kind of a sticker guy. Like, I don't know what it is about stickers, but I just love them. I put them all over the place on everything
So I agree to on the stickers is something cheap, but can be impactful
It doesn't have to be just like an XTC logo or something, right something that looks cool
There's somebody just wants to use and put a little XTC logo somewhere
I was gonna say you should have a have stickers of just your PFP.
I think I made this comment
almost a month ago about
just your PFP and I'm like, damn,
that is memorable as heck.
Yeah, man.
I don't know if we can crunch out those stickers,
but hey, something...
Maybe an animated one or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The team is here. The team is taking
notes, right?
Yeah, look forward to that.
But all jokes aside, Lance, it's a pleasure to get to speak with you again.
And before we kick off today's discussion, let's go ahead and welcome in our dear panelists joining in for the conversation.
First off, let's go ahead and welcome Jonathan from Ibiru.
What's going on, Jonathan?
Hey, guys. Good to meet you.
Welcome in, man. How are you doing today? Doing great. Great day to chat at RWA. Hey guys, good to meet.
Welcome in man. How are you doing today?
Doing great. Great day to chat at RWAs.
Let's do it. Let's do it. Welcome to the panel my friend. And let's go ahead and welcome Artem from AssetLink.
What's going on Artem? It's been a while. How are you doing?
Hello, eyes. Hello everyone. Artem BDM from AssetLink link here and it was great my friend i was not
over at dubai unfortunately but i was seeing it on everyone's feed how fun it was so maybe next
year maybe next time maybe another place but i will be coming for sure and with the stickers man
100 love the stickers myself have it everywhere so do my wife you know on
the laptop especially change them you know every other month so I'm all up
for it excited for the topic today excited to get straight into it my
friend as always absolutely Artem and uh when you're saying uh another day
another time I thought you were gonna change that into another life I was
sitting in the back my chair is. I was like, please, please say it.
But maybe this life, maybe another month, another year, but definitely this lifetime.
But Artem, it's always a pleasure to have you on both Deepin and RWE Spaces.
So glad to see that you're here to join us today.
And before we kick things off, let's go ahead and welcome in our representative coming in from Gage.
What's going on, guys?
Hey, I'm sorry, Darren.
I've been in space for you for a week or so, I think.
I'm very happy now that's happening.
But yeah, stickers, right?
If I have stickers from my NFT collections, right,
I don't think I have enough laptops to cover them,
and they don't work or anything.
But at least I get stickers out of them.
But yeah, our DPA and stickers, that might be a banger.
Let's go.
I honestly, you know, that might not be a bad idea after all.
And I like how Lance, like we've started something here.
We've, um, before we even got into any RWA discussion, we have already created a landslide of reactions
and ideations surrounding stickers and IRL events.
So maybe this is something that we can do.
Yeah, this proves your point, man.
Yeah, people are quite bullish on it.
But if there's anything else we are bullish on, guys,
it is back to the topic at the top of today's basis title.
And of course, we're talking RWA's and we're talking AI. So what happens when we actually combine the two? Let's go's Spaces title. And of course, we're talking RWAs and we're talking AI.
So what happens when we actually combine the two?
Let's go ahead and find out.
And I would like to do so by starting the discussion here
with our dear panelists.
First of all, let's break things down, all right?
Some of you guys are very familiar with real world assets.
Some of you guys are hearing this for the first time.
So just to make sure all of our audience members
have been caught up and understand the context
of today's situation, the first question I want to ask our dear panelists
before moving on to deeper subjects is simply, how would you explain the tokenization process
of real world assets to a non-Web3 native? So please take a second, think about what you want
to say. And at any point, if you want to join in on the conversation, you guys already know what's up.
Please use the bottom right-hand panel and raise your hands like so.
And of course, if you have anything to add in direct response to what our previous speaker just said, keep those hands raised for me, but also hit me up with one of these waving hand emotes right here, and I'll do my best to skip the line and send you the mic ASAP.
and send you the mic ASAP.
And for everybody else in the audience right now,
please head back to that bottom right-hand corner,
give us a like, comment, and retweet on today's show
as I hand the mic over to Artem to start things off.
Take it away, man.
Thank you, Alice, and I will kick this off.
One thing before I start, though,
if I do disconnect, then I do apologize.
Elon's been bamboozing me the whole day today.
I've been in and out of spaces all the time,
and even before the show, you've seen I was jumping on and off of stage just because Elon man is just Elon these days
going crazy and with RWAs and trying to explain it to an average person I was recently doing that
actually trying to get people who are not that tech savvy even on board with RWAs and I like
to explain it in a way of shares. Again it all depends on what kind of
real world asset you're talking about but for me is of course real estate and I like to explain it
is imagine like a company has shares and owning a certain percentage of shares means you own a
certain percentage of the company. Same idea here but those shares are tokenized they are on chain and they allow you
to buy a portion or a fraction of the said asset in this case property or it could be a car or a
art piece whatever it is when we're talking about things like shares and other commodities being
tokenized it's a bit of another concept but it's really the fact that you're bringing that asset on chain
and making that legal connection between the two.
So it's not just represented there just because there is an actual physical connection,
you know, a lawful connection to that physical asset that you see.
And, you know, that's really explained it, I guess.
But I'm excited to hear
what other people, how they explain it to an average O. Yeah, I think that's a great example.
Not only did you break down the on-chain element of it, you're also tying back to something that
a lot of non-Web3 natives are quite familiar with, and that is, of course, tying it to real estate.
Right, Artem? But if you were to actually say, if you were at a conference, which I'm sure many conferences in Dubai did
have this discussion, what would you say is one of the most bullish factors that makes RWA stand
out as much as it is right now during 2025? That's a great question, and i think the main thing that allow it to stand out is the potential
that it has going forward people realize that crypto is 24 7 and you know that's the main thing
that help all of us understand that there is that potential there because since it's 24 7 we know
that we can always log in onto the market and get that liquidity out of it.
Also liquidity as I mentioned is another aspect that is really shining for the reason RWAs are
the topic right now because people realize that adding that extra liquidity especially to liquid
assets like real estate really adds a lot of potential a lot of value and allows to speed up
the economy as a whole and speeding up the economy allows for greater research and greater progression
of the population as a whole you know it's a very deep rabbit hole you can dive into but
just that extra liquidity has a lot of long-term value for the whole population in general.
And also another thing is it's borderless.
The tokenization allows you to invest in assets all over the world,
unlike the traditional aspect, where you can absolutely go the traditional way and invest somewhere on the other side of the ocean.
But man, the amount of paperwork that you have to go through,
the background checks, and potentially you could be told, hey, you're not eligible to do that.
Real estate tokenization, for example, breaks those barriers.
Tokenization of anything breaks those barriers and allows for people to be more globalized and gives them ability to be global again.
Well said, Artem. The combination of all the things that you
mentioned here, like the lower bar in terms of prerequisites, the 24-7 level of convenience,
and of course, borderless accessibility. I think combining these three factors together,
it really does paint quite a clear picture as to why this is impactful. And Lance, my guy,
you got your hand up. Let's go ahead and pass the mic over to you man yeah well i think uh the you know big thing too is um a lot of major
companies institutions financial institutions etc right are noticing those things that we just kind
of talked about um and also saw just how much traction and popularity, you know, that crypto got. And probably just felt like, you know,
if they, you know, brought their products, the Web2 world and kind of merged it with this kind
of new age and new technology, right? Like, what can the possibilities be? But I mean, it just
became really popular. And people talked about it for a long time that, you know, teams and
institutions, right, would probably get left behind if they didn't catch on or bring on to this. And a lot of big names have,
right? And then when, so when that happens, that brings credibility and kind of, you know,
solidifies our thoughts that this is here to stay and that this is a big deal. So it just brings
credibility to it, right? So now that a lot of big names and big players are involved,
it just brings credibility.
So now more and more and more just want to get in on it.
And it's because of the things that we just talked about, you know, right now.
So, yeah, I think that's really what's brought it, you know,
made it move forward and accelerate is the credibility
and the big names and big players that have come in.
Absolutely.
And we're seeing more of this manifest in the real world as
well, right? Which kind of leads me to a follow-up question I got in my mind, Lance. You know, when
Web2, big corporations start noticing that there's other platforms and other utility measures that
have, that basically covers their shortcomings. Like they can either do nothing about it,
be complacent, or they learn and move on
and actually integrate that technology with what they offer. So let's actually talk use cases for
a second here. So when we think of use cases for RWAs, Lance, how would you describe it? How are
they distinct from what we have already seen in the Web3 space proceeding up to this point?
web 3 space proceeding up to this point you mean like how how are rwas i guess different than the
way we've been doing it or or what do you mean i'm sorry rwas i'm comparing rwas to let's say um like
um like d5 to uh sexes indexes so i don't want to might as well throw nft projects in there
basically all the other projects that are non RWA based in our space.
Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, RWA is something that I think people can also wrap their head around too. You know what I mean? RWA is basically turning something that's a real asset, right?
Something that we all know, like real estate, or some sort of tangible or intangible form of value into something on chain.
So I think it's easier for like people to comprehend. And that's why it's gained a lot
of traction as well. I mean, still to this day, people ask me like, I don't understand,
you know, Bitcoin, or I don't understand XTC. Like, why do we need this? And what does it do?
And you try to explain it, and they don't necessarily understand it, or it's not as
easy for them to understand it, I guess.
But when you explain to them like a real world asset and it's not necessarily just some form of token that you could trade or whatever.
Right. It could represent ownership, you know, partial ownership or whatever that is. uh sovereignty depending on how the real world asset is structured or deployed um if it's not
deployed in a manner where there's sovereignty over the asset um it at least provides transparency
and traceability right so uh it can provide some form of sovereignty i guess in that shape or form
or whatever but but yeah i think when you explain that it's just easier for people to wrap their
head around it so i think that's also another reason why it's gained a lot of traction. I'm right there with you, Lance. I think
regardless of how innovative our tech is, at the end of the day, when the learning curve is too
high, you can have the most innovative thing in the world. But if it's difficult to pick up,
then people are just going to be complacent and not do it. They're going to stick to what they
are comfortable with and what they already know. but to that point this is exactly this is you just
example exemplified exactly why because it's so easy to wrap their head around it's something
that is tangible it's something that they are familiar with so comparatively speaking for normie
to understand how a bitcoin works it is much easier for a normie to kind of understand how cards work,
like trading card games, because it is something that they've seen in the real world. It is much
more easy for a normie to understand how properties work because real estate is something that they
are familiar with in the real world as well. But yeah, you also have your hand up. Let's toss it
back to you, man. Please go for it. Yeah, no, I just have kind of a reply to that. Most, I guess,
users and people coming in, right, don't necessarily have to understand a lot of this stuff, right? Because they're just, you know, using some sort of product or service or whatever that is, right? But I think it's important to really try to get people to understand that because I think we're at like a great opportunity where, you know, blockchain RWAs can provide something that can benefit, you know, people, everyday
people, right? Like I talk about sovereignty. I think if people, enough people don't come in and
truly understand the capability of this, giving you like sovereignty and rights over your data
information or value or whatever that is, we're sort of losing an opportunity to
retain that capability, I guess, right? Versus if we just, you know, stick with the everyday
processes of using this new Web3 world in the form of the way we did everything in the Web2 world,
we're sort of going to forfeit those rights, I guess, right? Like people are going to just let
that opportunity go by versus if people really understood the capability of blockchain and RWA to provide that sovereignty over everything,
people could demand it. And by choosing products or services, right, that give you that versus
maybe something using Web3 technology that doesn't give you that capability. So I think
it's important for people to learn that and demand that by picking products and services
and for the market per se,
choosing products or services that provides that. Well said, Lance. I really like that one. People
don't really understand what they use. And I guess a common rhetoric in our space is kind of
when it comes to onboarding, right? We always say, just help the consumer solve their problem.
And I fully agree with that.
I'm fully subscribed to that thought.
But that is just the first level, right?
When we have an end user that can utilize our app or product and solve their problems,
that creates a user base.
That is the first level.
But once these users become truly impressed with the tech and they want to understand
how it works, this is level two.
And level two creates builders. So it's nice to have a user base, absolutely. But once you actually go further
than that and start building a builder base, if that's even a terminology, I think this is when
we really start to crack things down. And this is when the ecosystem starts expanding like tenfold.
But I would actually love to take the opportunity to pass the mic over to Jonathan for this next one. So we've discussed what an RWA is, and we've even discussed why corporations in the real world are looking at it. Now, what would you say, Jonathan, are some of the most effective or most powerful use cases of RWAs that we've seen thus far?
theme thus far? Sure, we can walk through them. So I think within crypto, most people are aware
of payments and DeFi as obvious use cases. Within DeFi, you're starting to see a lot of innovation
that's essentially just gambling or leverage and movement of money around the place, which is fine because that
mimics similar things in TrotFi. But the RWA opportunity expands the scope of size from a
$3 trillion token market cap to potentially $18 trillion, if you take a look at some
estimates from BCG and Ripple. So they anticipate that within the next eight years.
It's essentially repackaging a lot of the things that you see in traditional finance, right? So if you think about
the 08 crisis, that was mortgage-backed securities. So that was derivatives on real estate. One of the
many things in RWAs is real estate. You're seeing gold, so tokenized gold tokens, PaxG and Tether golds. I think those are
around a couple hundred million in size as of now, but given the state of macro and the economy,
those have become a bit more prevalent. Aside from that, and I think we've talked about real estate already in terms of its value adding, you know, fractionalization in the sense that, you know, instead of having to buy a home for a million dollars, you can now fractionalize that into much smaller sizes.
So if I want a luxury apartment on, you know, Billionaire's Row in New York, I could contribute a much smaller amount of money and then be able to
hold exposure to that.
So, you know, you're basically giving a, you know, lower income audience access to
things that they no longer, you know, they wouldn't have normally had access to.
And I think in addition to real estate and art and there's a couple others, I think in addition to real estate and art,
and there's a couple others,
I think there are public equities, for example,
and you're seeing, you know,
it's interesting to see developments both on the crypto native front,
as well as, you know, TradFi audiences.
So you're seeing TradFi players actually come out
and what's an example?
What's that?
Robinhood, for example,
they want to provide crypto tokens trading online.
Whereas you see things like Ondo
who want to provide like public equities.
So you're actually seeing a merging
in both TradFi and crypto
and assets that are being provided.
You're seeing like the rise of like Ostium,
for example,
Perps provider in Arbitrum that has access to gold
or different kind of tokens exposure that allows you to trade on chain.
But I think I will move the conversation a bit there.
But sorry, that wasn't the most structured.
No, not at all, man. That was actually wonderful. I think there's a lot of fantastic takeaway points
here just from the overall utility and providing so many examples for us to digest. And kind of
going back to the one, we already spoke a lot about real estate. So let's actually move on
from that. But you mentioned something else that I think the moment you said that, it immediately
woke up a lot of people in the audience and that's when you mentioned gold jonathan so let's uh let's
dive into this a little bit deeper and you know what's funny is that i actually had a conversation
um with my family about this not specifically about the tokenization of it but about gold in
general so kind of painting this into a into question, Jonathan, what do you think could
convince a normie to buy tokenized versions, fractionalized gold on chain versus owning
the physical bar or ingots of gold? I think this would mirror something similar to Bitcoin. You
see Bitcoin DeFi sort of evolve. right? So you've seen lending protocols
that will take Bitcoin LSTs, and then you can use them to have, you know, you can collateralize it
to then have US, like USDC or any sort of stable coin equivalent, and then you can play with that
within DeFi. So it's, you know, I think right now, some of the problems with gold is people just
have gold and they'll just sit there.
But if you can have a lot more utility associated with it, which it should naturally gravitate towards, I think if you take a look at a lot of the major blue chip DeFi protocols like Aave, Compound,
they've all considered implementing PAXG and XAUT in the past, but it hasn't had, you know,
and XAUT in the past, but it hasn't had, you know, I think they had, they had some issues
because there was like a five bips fee associated with each transaction. And then that was a bit of
a technical issue, but they sort of figured that out over time. But the bigger thing is just the,
the volumes on it. It's still only a couple hundred million in size. But I think, I think
Robbie Michnick at BlackRock, their head of digital assets, was talking about how he thinks a recession would actually be a catalyst for both Bitcoin and gold, I think.
So if you see recession occurs as recession fears continue to progress, gold as an asset likely increases with Bitcoin shortly following it.
asset likely increases with Bitcoin shortly following it.
And as it increases in size, there'll be more demand for it to have it on DeFi platforms.
And, you know, you might see things similar to Bitcoin where they're like maybe full block
chains that are evolved around it or evolve their own strategies to have them.
Truly some of the most desirable commodities around the world man being able to
the ability to leverage fractionalized gold as a means of investing to other mediums i think this
is something uh very very understated and i think just kind of painting the picture above
why rwas are so useful i think this is but example, but this is an extremely powerful one. So thank you so much for that, Jonathan. And actually piggybacking off of Jonathan's point regarding
just like the ability to have a lot more flexibility with RWAs, I would love to pass
this question over on to you, Gage. And that is, let's talk safety and storage a little bit.
So we already know that having tokenized versions of real world assets allows us to be more
flexible with what we want to do with it, right?
But what are your thoughts regarding the safety and storage of said assets if they were physical
and tangible versus the tokenized version of this?
What are your thoughts on this, Guj?
I think, you know, I'm old school in that way right it's not your token it's not your wallet
it's not your tokens i think i think that still holds true no matter what asset you're kind of
holding right the token in fact the the tokenization of of real world assets it gives
you a much more flexible way to store your value.
I guess, you know, go back as old as gold,
you have to actually hold the ingot and stick it under your bed.
But, you know, have it fractionalized.
As a formal token, you can have it on a wallet and the various ways to keep that secure.
I still, you know, whether this is RWA
or it's any kind of crypto token, you know, the best way to store it is to own the wallet that has it.
So, yeah, that's how I feel about that.
Gotcha. You know, when you started off with saying you're old school like that, I thought you were actually going to go the other way.
I thought you were going to say something about having it tangible in your hands
on what's going to be the more safe and storage route. Because I do know if I had this conversation
with my parents, that is probably what they would say to me. But I think this goes back to the
lack of understanding on cryptocurrency and technology, right? Because my parents don't
really have that line of thought. They actually feel like
having it in their hands is probably the most secure way to store it. So that being said, RWA is
powerful and immensely a number of ways, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with its own
amount of shortcomings, right? So let's actually play devil's advocate and discuss this a little
bit. And wow, I know before we actually segue on to any other topic, I just noticed we got some
hands up on the panel. So let's go to the hands first take away artem we'll go to artem and then jonathan
and then we'll swing by the next set of questions go for it thank you eyes and actually you said
perfectly i just wanted to be an advocate of the devil maybe advocate of your parents a little bit
here and i'm all up for rlbas and token. I mean, that's something I wake up and talk about.
But if we talk about gold, for example,
of course, having that physical nugget under your bed
would be the most secure way
if we don't take into account the fact that you can be robbed.
If we exclude the fact that you could be robbed at gunpoint
and your gold could be taken, That's the most secure way.
When we talk about tokenization, we have the token tied to a physical gold nugget,
which is stored somewhere.
And it could be a bank, it could be some company, it could be a government.
And the bigger the institution, where it is the government, for example,
of course, that would be the secure secure way of storing it because the government
will be the one who's saying that this token belongs to this gold and it will always will
this gold will not go missing blah blah blah that's great if we look at a company for example
that issues the golden token and has that physical goal it's tied to you must make sure that you try
that company enough not to go behind your back and cash out in a pawn shop and then go and spend all at the casino,
because that could happen. And it's something we have to think about. RWA and tokenization is all
great, but we need to really keep in mind what is backing that tokenized asset, who is backing
that tokenized asset. And as I said said if the government does it that's great but
if the government does it then we go into another problem of uh the fact the government wants to
control everything you know it's again it's another rabbit hole but something i want to throw out
there that we need to think about is who is backing up those assets because the government is the
safest option but then the government really wants to look inside your pocket and know where you got the money from where it's moving to
and then we're back at you know back at square zero like it is in the web to
financial side of things you know just a thing I want to throw out there and
excited to hear whatever else gonna say yeah I think all this all ties back to
the level of our transparency and traceability that Lance
mentioned in the beginning of today's space, right? But absolutely, the increased level of
security and possibly even insurance. I need to do my research on that because I asked this
question about two years ago. I don't know if this has moved on. I don't know if we got the
insurance section covered, but let's swing it over to Jonathan and hear his thoughts on this conversation.
Yeah, I was just thinking it might be helpful to level set the type of use cases for RWAs, just as we've been going around.
Like there are money market and short duration funds like Franklin Templeton and Black Rocks Fund.
So I think that one's a bit obvious, but we sort of glazed over that.
There's the real estate fractional ownership.
There's the commodities and carbon credits. So that's gold and carbon credits. And then we haven't really talked about it, but I
think fine art and collectibles is also interesting. There are infrastructure of stuff. So solar farms,
telecom towers, those are basically like real world commodities. There are intellectual property
rights and royalties. So some of these things you see on story,
like music royalty rights,
you can actually buy the right in a song,
which is kind of sort of interesting.
But like, I think this framework you have to go back to
is would I actually deposit money in this
if this was a real world asset class?
And like, sometimes people pitch like sapphire emeralds
and I'm like, I'm not entirely sure
whether I'd buy them but um the thing a thing that i do find interesting is securitized
funds in private equity so for example if i had access to you know sequoia's vc fund which is
notorious for not letting lps access their fund you know I would love to buy, get access to a Sequoia fund or an Andreessen
one that was tokenized on chain. You know, you're starting to see that with things like
Republican Securitize. So I think one thing to mention here that's pretty big was Apollo's
recent partnership. So Apollo is basically one of the top, you know, private equity firms in the
world and they specialize in credit.
And also notorious for grinding their employees like 100 hours a week.
But they announced a levered corporate credit fund that is managed by the strategy manager Vault on Compound Blue, which is basically this compound deployment on Polygon managed by Morpho, powered by Morpho.
So it's essentially just like a Morpho using Compound's vaults.
But now if I want to get access to Apollo's corporate credit fund, I can do it in a levered basis.
So it's not just 10% yield that a typical corporate credit firm might yield,
but I can take on some liquidation risk, I imagine, and then juice that return to maybe 15%,
20%. So I think that's really interesting. We did forget to introduce him earlier on,
but we do have Gabe on the Nibiru chain actual channel here. So I think we've done some work internally on both trade finance and invoice
financing, as well as corporate credit,
which I think corporate credit I sort of alluded to earlier,
but it's like the likes of Maple and Goldfinch.
And I'll pass it on to him to sort of talk about some of our discussions and
takeaways, which I think would be interesting for the audience here.
Gabe, are you there?
Gabe, going once.
You might have to hold the mic down, maybe.
No problem.
Gabe, just checking in with you.
If you're there, let us know with an emoji if you're there.
But if you're unable to speak, then we'll coordinate in the developer's chat.
Let us know if there's any issues going on with the mic here.
But in the meantime, there's an emoji there.
There's an emoji.
Okay.
I think he is there, maybe having some microphone issues.
But hey, whenever you're ready, if you want to speak, Gabe, you already know what to do.
Just head on to the bottom right-hand corner and raise your hands, and we'll be happy to throw the mic to you, man.
But actually, in the meantime, you know, Jonathan, I think you covered
a lot, a lot of things that we've never heard of before, like kind of like access to a Paul's
credit fund. I'd imagine that for a typical person in the real world, for us to have access to any
kind of private equity, it would take a lot of prerequisites. It would take a lot of proof
of your status, of wealth, and all that stuff. But of course, here in Web3, it's more decentralized. Access is a lot easier. But
kind of the topic that we were heading into before then is that there's obviously a lot
of positive aspects surrounding RWAs, but it doesn't come with its own list of shortcomings,
right? So just like Artem did, let's play devil's advocate again on this subject, Jonathan. What would you say are some of the major challenges or perhaps shortcomings
faced by RWA projects in our space recently?
Might have to think about that for a second, but I'll let someone else take it first.
Yeah, for sure. Lance, I saw you saw you on mutual mic there yeah please go for it
um yeah i mean uh i think there's a lot that you can really speak onto this but just kind of off
the top of my head and maybe you know some of the things that i've kind of come across is um
i think how this stuff can be built as well, right?
Like, you know, a lot of people may have like a good business idea
or what they would like to take advantage of.
You know, they hear all these things that are great about blockchain and RWAs.
You know, it's a 24-7 access, you know, quick and easy, you know,
transferring value or funds or whatever that is, right?
But what do they actually need to build this out?
I mean, there's a lot of things that are coming or that are here already, you know, like white
label solutions for tokenization platforms that SMEs or institutions or, you know, whatever could
basically use. But then, okay, they get that white label solution, they get the front end UI,
the smart contracts deployed, back end work done.
Everything's going right.
OK, now how do their users actually use it?
Right.
Like, how do they get liquidity involved?
I mean, there's just there's so many things that are like any any business, you know, and I think we have to kind of think of it that way, too.
Any kind of business, whether it's Web3 or not, there's going to be some sort of roadblocks or
challenges. I just think that in the Web3 world, there's probably very similar challenges that
people are facing. But I mean, that's one, obviously, is just how do they get started
from a development standpoint? But then also, once the development is done, how do they,
you know, who's their user base, right?
Like how do they onboard their users or how do, you know, they get past the whole wallet situation?
Are they going to use like account abstraction or something like that?
Are they not going to have wallets?
Are people going to have their own wallets?
Just like things like that, that new projects that are coming from like web 2 to web 3 have to sort of figure
out that they didn't have to face normally coming from the web 2 world yeah it's um it just it feels
like it's a it's kind of like an amalgamation of different educational obstacles that we have to
deal with because um like there are we kind of got used to it in the real world and let's be honest
once we get used to something we don't really want want to change, right? So it's tougher. It's definitely tougher. I mean, education is already
difficult on its own, but I think it's actually more tumultuous when we have to re-educate people
on something that they might already know and then try to pitch why this is better than the system
that they've already been accustomed to. But before we actually continue on, we got Gabe
officially on stage with the
personal account what's going on gabe can you guys hear me this time yes sir loud and clear how are
you doing man good good thanks for having us um i think this is a really interesting topic because
we spend a lot of time in the bureau focusing on ui ux and making sure that you know if you are a
brand new user like these kinds of flows work for you.
And I think to answer the question directly is I think the two main issues are, again, UX for users.
Like you mentioned, you know, Web2 users who are coming in don't really want to have to deal with a metamask,
go to three different, you know, have to deal with gas, transfer over, purchase and
swap into USDC, deposit it into some vault and, you know, mince some token then, oh, and then you
have to add that into your MetaMask. Like that, that's a super clunky and terrible UX. And so I
think that's, that's one of the big barriers, especially for retail. Institutions are a bit
different, but you know, that's, that's a different conversation. And then I think
the other really big thing is branding. And I guess just security is kind of wrapped into that.
Whenever any American logs into their Schwab account or TD Ameritrade, or I guess not TD
Ameritrade anymore, but their Schwab or their Fidelity account, they see everything there and
they know when they go in that these are vettedetted, this is secure. And, you know, you just trust it inherently.
But I think a benefit and a con to crypto is you get a lot more of these risk on assets that might
have higher yield. But, you know, for normal users, they don't want that. They just want a
very simple, you know, oh, great, I trust that I'm buying a T-bill here or a bond or a stock, and it's very easy, and it's all in one place. And you trust it. So I think those are the two main issues that I see at face value for now, though.
value for now though yeah i think that's spot on i think there's a reason why a lot of them a lot
of us anchored back into the real world there's a reason why people choose gic's over incredibly
high yield and yet risky investment options um kind of like the way that you painted the picture
surrounding the con of crypto uh right gabe but you know to create a seamless user experience i
honestly feel like this is so important instead of here's 17 steps to get you
started no no that's definitely not it nobody is going to read that nobody is going to go through
it it's it got shut down before it even began but kind of uh segwaying this conversation into ai as
well um i did see both uh gabe jonathan and artem with their hands up so i'm not sure who uh what
order it was but i think i'll toss it to to Artem and then we'll swing it by Jonathan.
But I just kind of want to move this conversation
towards the AI side of things.
So now that we've kind of discussed
the shortcomings of RWAs,
how would you say, Artem,
how would you say AI has positioned itself
in order to address these problems?
Thank you, Aiz.
And that's a great blend
into the second part of our conversation today,
which is AI. And the major issue that we're having, some of them could be solved with AI.
And not all of them, of course. I think the main three issues that we're having currently
are the legal side of things or the lack of frameworks, education side of things and time.
And what I mean by time is it's a new technology.
Some people already bought Bitcoin, but taking that next step,
they just need more time and more clarity on how things work.
When we have AI coming into play, one thing it does, of course,
it brings more people into it with the hype that it has around the world,
with everyone investing in AI, AI breaking the limits, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's one of the things, you know, just generally bringing people into it.
Because it says AI, they're actually going to come to RWAs and start looking into it,
potentially getting a grasp of it and then utilizing it, which is one of the aspects that AI brings.
getting a grasp of it and then utilizing it which is one of the aspects that ai brings
another one is the security side of things that could be managed by ai and also enchanting the
user experience utilizing the ai tools in the background of everything and all of it kind of
ties together and one of the things that ai could help with is the legal framework is ensuring that you're staying within the legal framework you're provided.
And that you can adapt on the go, to say, depending on different kinds of situations.
Because when we look at RWA, it's not as simple, again, depending on what asset that we're looking into.
And as I love to do, I speak from the real estate standpoint.
And real estate is all different around the world and all different in itself.
So here you need an adaptive AI that are able to kind of navigate the field and then make sure that you stand within those kind of lines of the framework itself. Another thing AI helps is education. And as an example, I can give from the
education side is what we decided to do is we have Link AI on board. What it does, it helps you
analyze the market and get an idea of RWA, what it does and how it works. And not just our AI,
any other AI could be utilized for that and help you get a better understanding of RWAs,
navigate you, and then even maybe give you some insights on different markets around the world.
Because we have to understand, with RWAs, we're providing people with so much choice,
which they never had before.
And this is where the education side kicks in.
Because logging into Fidelity, like we said said people are used to it you know they
know exactly what the tool that they have that they can work with with rwas there are thousands
and if not millions of different tools that could be used and this is where we run it an issue which
ai could solve which is education with ai which is also spoke about very often in the spaces and I think it's one of the
Potential big booms going forward is the AI education style things
Well said Artem, you know, we kind of talked about
Educational roadblocks so many times into this space and it really is true
I think that is but amongst amongst education. I think while education is definitely there
I think also what you said, you know, the user experience, security, staying within the legal framework, speeding up information intake.
I think this is an absolutely huge one because at the end of the day, this maximizes our efficiency for our use of time, right?
Our most precious commodity at the end of the day.
So, so many things to think about.
But actually, Jonathan, I know you had your hand up and I also see that you have dropped down to the listeners. I just
sent you an invite to pull you back up. But also in the meantime, Lance, I saw you with your hand
up as well. I don't see anybody's hands anymore, but I'm just going to go with what I saw and hand
you the mic based on that. Lance, go for it, man. Yeah. Thanks, man. I think one of the
interesting things or exciting things too is AI, you know, working with smart contracts and vice versa for payments as well.
Right. I think, you know, there was a lot of misunderstanding or misinformation, I guess, right, on like what smart contracts are actually capable of.
are actually capable of.
You know, they really can't execute payments on their own.
You know, basically they just verify or execute terms, conditions, rules, you know, they're
agreed upon, set forth or whatever beforehand.
But, you know, executing actual payments is sort of tricky in a sense with smart contracts,
right?
So I think what AI can do to improve that is also monitoring maybe some of
the terms or conditions set forth like in the smart contract, but verifying off-chain data,
right? Verifying the terms that have been executed, like let's say in trade or whatever,
AI can detect and monitor compliance or whatever that is,
or the terms and conditions, and then work on actually executing payments. And maybe not even
payments, maybe some other things that are set forth with smart contracts. But I think AI can
really, you know, speed things up or improve execution of smart contracts and whatever it
may be that they're deployed for trade or anything else. So just automation with smart contracts and whatever it may be that they're deployed for trade or anything
else. So just automation with smart contracts, like an AI, improving that is something that's
pretty exciting because it can open up a lot of other possibilities as well and speed up processes.
Yes, man. Automation, automation and execution. These two things, I mean, I'm thinking of it from the AI agents, like the gaming side of things for Web3,
but there's a lot of applications to this as well.
I'm going to check in with Jonathan real quick before I pass the mic back to you, Lance, for some closing thoughts here.
Jonathan, first of all, welcome back.
Secondly, you did have your hand up before you dropped to the audience, so I just wanted to send you the mic.
hand up before you drop to the audience. So I just wanted to send you the mic. And yeah,
And yeah, what's on your mind?
what's on your mind? Yeah, I was just trying to think of a better framework to address this
AI question in RWAs. And I think you can think of the challenges that essentially RWAs face,
and then the AI-powered solution that can address it. And I think we've sort of touched on some of
these, but regulatory, legal, from Mika text, SEC guidance, VARA updates,
all of these will have confusing guidelines,
and AI can sort of allow for better compliance with tailored,
drafted documents, rule changes that are flagged automatically.
Another issue is with tokenized assets,
because they're bootstrapped initial assets,
they'll just have scattered liquidity.
So those have shallow order books, and you'll sort of meet market makers
to provide initial liquidity to have them function without large slippage sizes.
So initial market makers that are AI driven,
and then are able to dynamically place buy and sell orders
and tighten spreads are also pretty helpful.
And just general predictive liquidity analysis will enable you to switch capital from chains
or venues in real time.
So I think another issue with RWAs that we didn't really talk about is Oracle centralization
or data integrity.
So if you're relying on an Oracle feed for perps or some other assets that is susceptible to attack.
So if you can use AI to detect any sort of anomalies in Oracle feeds or Oracle validation,
that would be obviously helpful.
And I think maybe the final obvious area is, I think, valuation and pricing standardization.
So, you know, you could use it for better valuation models to ingest data.
So I think there are, if you think about a e-liquid asset, you know, let's use real estate as the easier example.
But let's say you're in, I don't know, somewhere in niche Texas and And then your comps, so essentially different things are
sold in that region. You could have like an AI driven model for what the proper price per square
foot should be and it should account for all these random factors. All these things were previously
done by like, you have to be like an actual market participant in purchasing a home in Texas or a
real estate agent to understand that market. But if you can have an AI-driven suggested price, they'll make it a flattened playing
field for other people, other traders to come into that market and trade it.
So I think that the opportunity in summary for AI is kind of just a bit more compliance
valuation and security sort of related.
That was an excellent take, Jonathan.
Thank you so much for taking the time to think about that and pulling back onto the stage to share that with us.
Man, that's a lot to take in.
Safety and security breaches, educational efficiency, streamlining regulatory
compliance, and of course, the accuracy of information that we are all getting. All of
these things are elements that can be supercharged with AI solutions. I absolutely love that,
Jonathan. Thank you so much. And as we approach the closing segment for today's space, I do want
to pass the mic back to my co-host Lance. First of all, some closing thoughts regarding today's space.
And secondly, what are some upcoming updates happening with XTC that we should be paying more attention to Lance?
Yeah, good conversation, man.
Thanks again for having me on here.
You know, a couple of things to mention.
If you check out XTC community here in the Twitter, they're listening in.
There's a RWA AI Dev Sprint happening right now. There's
some prizes up for grabs, ends towards the end of the month. To learn more about it,
check out XTC Community's Twitter or X account. They're posting a lot on there.
XTC Foundation's putting a lot of information out there about that as well.
So yeah, check that out. You know,
as far as upcoming, you know, one thing that's been taking up a good bit of my time has been
involved with the plug and play program. There's a handful of some awesome established projects
in the space, man, that are doing, I mean, big, big, big things. And the cool thing about this
program is they've all come together you
know with us we've been meeting with all of them you know identifying things that we can work on
together maybe there's there's stuff that we can do good that can help them uh and vice versa right
like what can they bring to the xdc network so um you know integrations are already underway with
with quite a few of them uh to get get XTC supported in their products and services.
But then there's also some stuff that are outside of what they're doing right now, right,
that we're going to try to work on with them. So stay tuned. XTC Foundation X account will be
posting updates. And we should have some pretty exciting updates around that, specifically as far
as what we're going to be working on with the projects but uh yeah stay tuned i'll post some stuff on my x account so give me a follow
um and xdc foundation as well so that's what i'm excited about uh and events too are picking up i'm
sure there's going to be a lot more that we're going to be attending uh throughout the year as
well definitely yeah i mean we kind of talked about this in the beginning of today's show but
next week next week right consensus is happening make you guys, if you guys are going to be there, make sure you guys reach out to Lance. Connect with the XDC fam and look forward to the announcements that are going to be coming. But guys, that being said, this is going to mark the end of our space for today. Once again, thank you so much to all of our awesome panelists for joining in on today's discussion. And of course, thank you all in the audience for all those likes, comments, and retweets.
We really do appreciate every single one of you guys.
Now, one last time,
make sure everybody is following the XTC House account.
And of course, remember to turn on those notifications
so you guys don't miss out on any of the latest updates.
But until then, this is gonna be Ice signing off
and we'll see you guys in the next one.
Peace. going to be signing off and we'll see you guys in the next one peace
