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What's To Come In 2026 On RUJIRA
Recorded: Dec. 20, 2025 Duration: 2:08:03Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion, ThorChain's team outlined significant advancements including the launch of new features, the introduction of the Rune token, and strategic partnerships aimed at enhancing security and liquidity. The community is buzzing with excitement for 2026, anticipating innovations that will drive growth and yield opportunities in the decentralized finance space.
Full Transcription
officially everybody the last space of 2025 it is is time for Ruggiero.
I hope you guys are pumped up.
I've had 14 cups of coffee.
I've had a little cocaine.
I am ready to party, you guys.
It is only 8 in the morning.
Are you guys ready?
I am ready.
Let's get this party on the road here.
Let me join his co-host.
Yeehaw.
Okay, guys. Hello, everyone. Let's get this intro
going. ThorChain is the first decentralized exchange in the world to swap real Bitcoin.
And now you can use every Bitcoin wallet in the world and you don't have to connect it to a
website. Same with Ethereum, XRP, BNB, Tron, Doge, doge and more eventually you'll be able to swap any token
from any wallet for chain is turning into a full layer one liquidity engine where apps can be built
on top of it and speaking of apps we're going to be talking about rogera today the best app player
in the world this app player unlocks lending perps bitcoin back stable coins token launchpad nfts
prediction markets and so much
more. ThorChain isn't just a
decentralized exchange. It's becoming the protocol
of pure, insensible liquidity.
Swapping on ThorChain
is permissionless. There is no KYC.
Anyone in the world can use it.
To swap on ThorChain, go to ThorChain.org.
Click on swap. New features
and functionality will be added to the site over the next
few months, especially the Regiran primitives
that we're going to be talking about, guys.
So make sure you guys share this space
to anyone and everyone.
ThorChain's token is called Rune
that is spelled R-U-N-E.
You don't need to buy or hold Rune
to place a swap on ThorChain,
but the fees deducted from your swap
are used to buy Rune.
And this is the Rune that is the yield that goes to liquidity pools and nodes. There are no block rewards on ThorChain, but the fees deducted from your swap are used to buy Rune. And this is the Rune that is the yield that goes to liquidity pools and nodes. There are no block rewards on ThorChain.
100% of the yield is real. ThorChain is deflationary with 5% of the revenue burned.
If you hold Rune on a centralized exchange, you should withdraw into self-custody because these
tokens can be used to short sell Rune and drive the price down. And once in self-custody, you guys look into bonding your rune to a node to earn some yield
to help secure the network. A really great site is runebond.com. Really easy. All you have to do
is find a node, request a whitelist, and bond your rune. And to my Rejuven friends, when B-Rune
becomes live, that will be supported immediately, or at least as soon as possible.
A little shout out to the community here.
We want to increase the amount of node operators that we have to further decentralize the network,
because when we're going to be winning,
we're going to be making lots of enemies.
So we want to decentralize the network.
If you or know somebody has some technical skill, new Kubernetes,
let's make you a node operator, right?
So reach out to RuneBond or
Kenton or myself. It does not matter. We have plenty of resources to get you trained up so you
can become a node operator. The further decentralized network, we will train you.
It only makes ThorChain stronger. So please reach out. ThorChain has another token called T-C-Y.
This token is like a preferred stock where 10% of the protocol's revenue goes to these token T-H-O-R ThorChain Community Discord and Telegram, you can join to learn all about ThorChain and make friends. To find the links, go to at ThorCommunity.
That's at T-H-O-R, community account on X.
You guys, this space is going to be a special one.
It'll be geared towards anyone in their ThorChain journey
or your Rajira journey or maybe both journeys.
Whether you're new or a veteran,
there will be something for you today on space.
I hope you guys are so excited.
This is the last space of the year
and no one better to do it with than with Ruggiero,
something that I am so unbelievably excited about.
And I hope all of you guys are excited as well.
I'm gonna go ahead and kick it to Kenton.
Kenton, how you doing, buddy?
I'm good, man.
Yeah, looking forward to our last space of the year.
So a little quick update with the swap interface.
I think it's all done being migrated over to ThorChain servers.
And so some of you noticed that the site was down for several hours.
That was DNS settings being reset and everything.
But that should all be good now.
I actually didn't look today, but last I looked,
the site was up, so it's working.
But then with everything moving around,
something happened with the docs page,
like the normie docs page and the developer docs page.
Again, something to do with the DNS settings, I think.
I don't know.
But the people know about it.
They're trying to fix it.
And I also forgot to, on Thursday, I forgot to mention,
I have been talking to Chainalysis and Lyptic
and some other wallet screening providers.
So that is, excuse me, excuse me, sorry.
So that is in the works. And uh so and you know with christmas
you know you guys know how things go so i doubt anything will be decided in the next two weeks but
hopefully in the new year uh we can make a decision pretty quick on which to use um and then
i was just actually just want to just kind of throw us out there too, that, uh, I was reflecting on our conversation on Thursday, you know, Boone asked about burning,
you know, most or part of the reserve.
Um, and I was kind of against it in that I was thinking all about like my response.
I'm like, maybe I'm wrong.
Um, maybe it is a good idea to burn, burn part of the reserve or most of it or even all of it
um and get the total supply of run down because like you know bitcoin um i was you know ruin isn't
a store of value like bitcoin right you know ruin door chains more like a business and businesses
you know they um they increase their number of shares outstanding
all the time like it's not a big deal it's not crazy it's not you know so if we ever get to the
point where we need to like add more to the reserve or you know add more tokens to ruin like it's not
it's really not the end of the world so maybe there's some merit to people saying we should do
that um man we don't have to talk about it. I just wanted to just throw it out there.
I was thinking about it.
Maybe in the new year, we can start talking about it again.
And that's it for me.
Thank you, Kenton.
Yeah, everyone loves your updates, man.
And very happy here.
I hope you guys are surprised.
We have two wonderful people with us.
We have Pragmatic Monkey, everyone's Frenchman.
And then we also have Code Hans. I'll go ahead and kick it to you pragmatic monkey how you doing
come on so far so i'm gonna see you're gonna be all good really uh glad to be here with you guys
to uh to close up the year and uh and speak a bit about what we have uh in the pipe for
rogera for next year yes absolutely and um i know Code Hans, I'm gonna kick it to you.
You have been working so hard.
It's been such a joy watching your updates.
I like, it's like a form of,
it's like a mild addiction for me.
Cause I just, man, I know you're really baking over there.
So how you doing, man?
Oh, great.
And I just wanna say that energy, that intro,
this is amazing.
Yeah, two good vibes here. Honestly, it's been, you know, it's been what now, 12, 13 months since this whole thing kicked off in August last year. And it's, you know, we've been through it all together, haven't we? But it's coming together now. Yeah, just these pieces are falling into place and things are moving forward
and lending's live, credit accounts are live.
You know, the trading wheel has come off in January.
It's borrowing against native Bitcoin,
borrowing against native E.
All these, like, incredible things
that just until this partnership was created,
until we built these products,
just weren't possible.
So, yeah, it's coming together
and I'm incredibly excited.
Dude, likewise, me too, man.
And your energy, by the way,
I mean, how much you're coding.
You and Chad Bareford are just code shipping machines, man.
I joke all the time.
I hope you wish you guys could make some children
because this is insane.
Guys, please remember this space, it is open.
So if you guys have any questions,
please put it in the Regiran telegram
or the Thorchain telegram.
I'll try to monitor both
because I know you guys always have questions.
But Kenton, did you want to kick it off with anything
regarding to Pragmatic Monkey or Kenton?
Sure.
Yeah, maybe just make a quick comment i get and
in my mind app layer is kind of like uh hands and chad's baby right like you know would be possible
without the base layer code and then now hands code right so that is our little their little baby
um i tell you i remember i said before but i remember when i first started building
in the like cosmism execution layer into the thornode code and looking at the kind of like
just basic kind of like a construct or whatever it doesn't really matter but you you see these
these these core components of that base layer which allows you to ingest an ethereum transaction
ingest the bitcoin transaction you're like well this is just one one code base so suddenly i now
have access to all of these chains in the code that i'm writing and it's just it was you
know right from that moment i was like this is going to be something special and uh and the the
the platform that has been built that chad built that all you guys built was just it's it's just
on another level and we get to we get to play in this in this sound pen. It's incredible. That's awesome.
So something I've been thinking about is like,
I feel like the first, I guess,
like the second quarter of this year,
like there's a lot of attention on,
on Regera and what you guys are doing and when things are going live.
And then I feel like in the sec,
in the third and fourth quarter here,
it's quieted down a bit.
And maybe it's just me, what I'm looking at.
And I'm not saying this in a negative way.
In my mind, it's like, okay, you guys have been down.
You've had your heads down and you're building and you're shipping.
And you can just kind of focus on coding, basically, getting things done.
Am I reading this right?
Have you guys been able to make a lot of progress in the last, say, six months? basically getting things done. Is that, am I reading this right?
Have you guys like been able to make a lot of progress
in the last six months compared to say the first six months?
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's fair to say
that kind of when we started off, you know,
August last year and there was like,
there was a process, right?
And we all kind of had to get to know each other,
I guess to a degree and um and getting the
the cosmism layer merged into the thorno code took i think three months and then january and february
was thoughtfire and all that kind of stuff so it's just been a progress and then and now we're in a
place where actually we you know i think we're all we're all we're all in the same tent uh pushing
out right and um all on the same team.
And we kind of have this mandate and this mission now,
and we have the freedom and the ability
to actually keep moving.
And the other piece of this is that you kind of,
you see it a lot in this space that pre-launch projects
get more hype and more attention.
And because something pre-launch can be anything, right could be a machine that turns you know water into gold um as long as you write it in a
white paper but as soon as you actually put put that code down and ship something you you have to
test your metal um and and we are now more at that base okay market's the best right it's going to do
what it's going to do but But we are now delivering on the promises
and actually kind of shifting and building these features.
The hype isn't the important thing.
It's the delivery, and it's the TVL, and it's the revenue,
and it's the usage, and it's the users.
It's all those kind of actual important metrics.
So maybe just help us a bit of a recap.
So my understanding is the linchpin or like the final puzzle piece to get going on AppLayer
is these credit accounts.
Am I right?
And if so, can you just kind of walk us through why that was so important to get that done
first?
This is a whole space in itself credit counts um yeah so
so um where do we start with this so the kind of the i guess i guess you start with sort of like
to kind of the what i'm gonna like in in quotes traditional lending markets where you know you
have a smart contract you deploy smart contract this is what we have in kajira it's where you can
you have one smart contract and that allows you to deposit bitcoin or wrap btc as it was then and you can borrow usdc against it so you have this kind of
isolated clearly defined market with clear liquidation routes which is fine it worked
really well right like it was it was one of our biggest products massive tvl loads of usage um
but it's it's very constrained right you can't have multi-collateral you can't have multi-debt
you can't you know you can't have cross margin, all that kind of stuff.
And at the same time,
we were kind of looking at a design for a,
like a perpetual contract, so perhaps basically.
And the way that perps are stable against the spot market
is because people are trying to raise funding rates against the spot market.
And the whole point, everything that we're building
with Kajira was, it had to be connected.
It had to be kind of this unified, interconnected design.
And if something kind of was out on its own,
which the design we had to have sort of was,
it didn't feel right.
And so I just kind of, I kick it back and forward loads.
And when we started rethinking and we had the opportunity to reimagine what this whole kind of debt market and credit market looked like on Wajira,
credit accounts just started to make much more sense.
Credit accounts are a much more generalised interpretation of borrowing and lending.
So you just have effectively an address, right?
The same way that you have a wallet address,
a credit account is an address that is your address,
but you can only control it in certain ways.
So you can borrow money against it as long as you have enough margin
or enough collateral on that account.
But that collateral can be anything.
And you can do anything.
So like if somebody creates a new protocol,
I can now use my credit account contract with funds on it that I borrowed from a lending market.
And I can now interact with a new protocol.
So I can deposit into an LP, like base layer LP or an app layer LP,
or I can open a purpose position or I can create a limit order.
And all these things count as collateral.
And they'll count as assets owned by the credit account.
And so suddenly this was like,
this was like that kind of sort of Eureka moment
where I can now open a limit order
or hold spot class from a spot market.
And I can also open a purpose position.
And those are both owned by the same credit account.
And so suddenly you have this bridge
between your perps market and your spot market.
And it's just, I remember it was incredible.
And so you're like, well, this is it now.
This is how you create this kind of like interconnected,
unified, beautiful DeFi ecosystem where the rules are open source.
You can verify them.
It's fair.
We have fair liquidations.
You can encode your liquidation routes into your credit account.
So whoever is executing your liquidation, if it comes to that, doesn't get to benefit
from it.
It's handed back to the community and
you get the best execution price all these kind of things so like it's yeah like i said there's a
whole there's a whole space we could do on on uh on credit accounts and how um how it how it creates
and then this this this link between the spot market and the purpose market and and stable coins
as well we can come on to that but the stable coins are key to this to all of this but uh yeah
i'm gonna run and stop now i'm rambling no that's great so like is this an example of why you guys
feel it's important to kind of keep everything in-house like with rogera like like instead of
you know before i was i was saying there should be competing teams, competing smart contracts and whatnot.
But having you guys kind of curate the whole thing and do it all in-house,
you can make your credit accounts and everything all work together.
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a case of having everything in-house, right?
Like, when we talk about everything, it's...
When you look at kind of like the the history
of d fire and the way that these protocols have have been launched and created is you know we
started in 2016 or late 2015 2016 with ethereum first time you can actually program this this
this internet money um and it was all very unknown and people kind of like you know testing what was
possible and uniswap was launched and arvo was launched and then MakerDAO was launched
and blah, blah, blah.
And they're all kind of isolated products,
but they all have to work together.
Like there are a few key primitives
for a successful DeFi platform that are required.
And in order for it to be effective,
they have to operate together.
And broadly speaking, it's trading and credit.
Like those are the two key pieces, right?
I need to be able to exchange something
and I need to be able to leverage myself with it.
And we're so used to those being individual products
that when you say like,
oh, we're just actually gonna do all this together
in one piece, you think that's everything. There's so much more that can be built i think a launchpad is
it uses it but it's separate right it's not part of this interconnect interconnected ecosystem um
obviously we're building one but you know it's it's um
yeah like if you have you know competing decks, competing lending markets, competing
blah, blah, blah, they just, it's not like the capital fragments or the liquidity fragments,
it's more that you don't get this really nice tight integration and everything suffers because
of it.
Yeah, I get it. Maybe on that, Kenton, I think it's really, we are building the core, like the fundamental
pieces, and then there will be plenty of space for other teams to come and compose the species
to build value added product on top of it.
And that's really where I think we can onboard more teams, building more products,
like credit account, for example, once you combine it with your primitive, it's open a very wide
variety of things you can do. Answorth's touching on, of course, CDP loans, but also stable coins,
futures. So we'll do the score primitives, but then once you have all of that together,
combined with the trading tools, you can build a sort of strategy or things we cannot even think of. And that's still actually
value to TorChain and to RUJI stackers because it's built on top of those primitives. And that's
where I think we will start onboarding. But it was really a process of first, we have to get
those places done. I think that's also a bit of a mistake or a reason why it took certain things longer than expected.
And not to blame anyone here, but it's just a matter of our history. We had a lot of builders
that came together with us because, well, we had a chain before and GP was pushing out to try to
onboard a lot of builders. And initially, this was not the right move.
It slowed down a lot from building the score primitive
by just effectively having to instead try
to create other people's problems
while the key pieces were on there.
And now, with a lot of cleaning of that,
we are now focusing on the score pieces.
And then it will be a time to invite
the team to be on top of us.
And when those other teams come in, it's all secretive.
Like, you want, if I'm a team working on top of these primitives and building something,
and another team comes in, it's not like it's necessarily competition.
It's like, we want as many teams building on top of these primitives as possible, because
the more, it's just a giant funnel of liquidity into the same primitives, right?
So we're all working on the same ones.
It's all, we're making it all stronger for each other, right?
Exactly.
And then when you combine that with the referral and the Fiat program we have in mind, we're
suited a way for those teams to monetize
by taking a share of the product of revenue.
I mean, at least conceptually for now, it's not coded yet.
But that's also very powerful because people can even spin out
different products, wallets, front-end, or just packaging stuff differently
and without increasing the cost for the end user,
just offer access to all those primitives and build new product,
new businesses on top of it. And do it in a way where they have very easy
mean to monetize it and without requiring to bootstrap their own liquidity and rebuild
all those complicated stuff and audit and other things. We have strong, robust, primitive.
You can just compose them on top
and auditize them very easily.
So it's all code.
Little by little, we have to
see from the piece, and then
we get there.
Nice.
Patio, do you want to jump in?
Well,
one thing I want to shout to the audience,
please, guys, if you have any questions at all,
please put them in the Telegram.
And with the Rudger and Thor chain, I'm paying attention.
I did manage to answer one by ourselves.
But yeah, I'm really excited.
And that was the one thing that I would think
that was hard to figure out in the beginning,
this whole new app layer.
It's completely new, the teams.
But I really think we've slotted in nicely.
And we have really for the first time time and it's crazy to say this because essentially rogera and thor chain are essentially two ecosystems that have blended but we really have
i feel like cohesive vision for the future um and so now we're just like cock blocked and
ready to rock right so super exciting so i'll probably kick it to code Hans, like what's got you very excited for Q1 of next year?
We get, I started from Q1, we get to scale now.
Credit accounts are out.
You'll be able to borrow against your native Bitcoin,
borrow against native E, all these kind of like,
the things that just haven't been possible until now,
until this kind of, this partnership happened.
And now we get to scale it.
And as far
as like a product point of view goes we all right so um we have these credit accounts the credit
accounts draw down from lending vaults right so you deposit usdc or usdt into a lending vault
um and you pay an interest rate based on the utilization of that vault, same way that
Aave does all that kind of stuff. The next primitive that we introduced to this ecosystem
is what we call a mint vault. So nobody deposits into this vault, it just mints a token and
you can borrow this token against your collateral which is the exact
same model we had for usk on kajira it's the exact same model that dia works or whatever it's called
now um and this is this is our stable coin right it's a it's a synthetic asset paid to a dollar
um and your interest rate is is dynamic based on uh supply and demand and so this mint bolt first
of all initially allows a uh the synthetic dollar
which which because of all chains um technology we can now export right so a a um the real value
in a stable coin is that whenever it integrates with another protocol you know it's paired with
another token on uni swap or you can borrow it on our
video like whatever right across any of the connected chains it's like a it's
like a yield hoover so you charge five percent to borrow it or mint it and you
can make eight percent on another postcode somewhere else and so that
five percent is like hoovering up yield from every single blockchain the
thought chains connected to and paying that to run and Ruju stakeholders.
And it's a, and that it's just, for me, that's just an incredible thing.
And the, the layer on top of that is actually what a,
what a stable coin is, right?
You made the synthetic dollar.
Um, and it's a, it's a notional long position right you're like
saying actually i'm gonna borrow against my bitcoin on my e because i think price is gonna
go up if you think price is gonna go down you're not gonna borrow against it right um and so you
flip that the other way around and you say right i just want to take a notional short position
so i'm going to create a synthetic bitcoin so now. So I'm going to create a synthetic Bitcoin. So now I have a synthetic Bitcoin,
which is a bit like it's, it works the same way, right?
Like you're, you're picking the value of your synthetic
Bitcoin to the value of one Bitcoin with, you know,
supply and demand rules.
So suddenly I have a synthetic dollar and a synthetic Bitcoin
and I can trade those two together.
I can trade them on a, on a Rudy order book.
And what I'm doing there suddenly like, lo and behold, have a purchase market because now now your counterparty isn't somebody
that's holding spot it's it's somebody else that is playing in the same game they're taking a you
know a leverage position they've margined it with what actually because of credit accounts they've
margined their position and whatever they want to margin it in dollars or bitcoin or whatever um
dollars or bitcoin or whatever um and all of this just comes from a mint ball which is
no i say i say notionly trivial uh it's not a complicated um contract right so this is like
as far as product goes this is this is what i'm very excited about this here or next year
and and hands just just to be make sure make sure I'm clear and everybody else the the protocol isn't taking on any counterparty risk, right?
Absolutely not. It's the users, right? This is like a closed system for every
long there's a short. It is this is the point of having kind of like an isolated
futures market right is that when when somebody wins and somebody loses it gets
sold or
bought across the other side of the market and you're kind of willingly participating in this
because you are you know you put the liquidity on that other side of the market if you just want to
be safe and stable you you trade on the spot market and feel like okay right now i'm i'm
i'm willing to to participate in this high stakes game high leverage game i canleverage game. I can now take my synthetic tokens.
I can trade my synthetic tokens against other synthetic tokens,
which ultimately have value because I can close my position
and take my profit or whatever.
But you're playing on a different field.
So in theory, if this lending market really takes off,
the perps market really takes off
It becomes huge doing like billions and volume and collateral or whatever
And then for whatever reason all goes to zero all the clutter all the collateral is withdrawn or the the volume the perp stack is is gone
It doesn't affect door chain in that it just misses out on those fees
in that it just misses out on those fees.
Otherwise, it's there to find, everything's fine.
The important thing is that we parameterize and configure these protocols
so that as far as the protocol is concerned, it is delta neutral.
It doesn't care if I scale up or down.
We've got enough people betting long, enough people betting short,
but if everybody wins, it's all zero.
everybody wins, it's all zero.
We're not talking about
a reflective design
like Podfly was
or whatever.
This is built from
years of learnings and blow-ups
and being in them and part of them
and whatever.
Making sure we get things right this time.
No, that's great.
It's what it should be.
Absolutely.
Torchy is just the middleman, right?
We're just facilitating the buyers and the sellers, right?
We're just in the middle of taking the fee.
And that's amazing.
Absolutely.
Awesome.
Patriot, did you want to?
I do have a question.
A pragmatic monkey or CodeHans can take this,
but I have a question from TXTX,
and they want to just know approximately when staking rewards will go live on the Regeran app layer.
Pragmatic monkey, do you want to try and take that one?
I can take it.
So, it's a matter of priorities, that's really the thing. Currently, the fees we are generating are not that big.
So, it's a matter of priorities.
That's really the thing.
If we enable it now, it would be one big distribution and then very little revenue.
So, and it still requires some work to make some change to the revenue converter and do a lot of reparametrization of protocols
to make it work.
So it's a question of do we spend time doing that,
or do we spend this time doing revenue generating product
first?
And my view, it's a no-brainer that we should first
focus on the revenue,
creating the tools that allow us to generate revenue
rather than just doing this one of distribution
and then having very, very little cash flow for customers.
Yeah, sounds good to me.
And just so you guys know, I will answer,
I will ask them pretty much any question
except if it's been double material, okay?
I do have another question.
This is from Max Power.
He wants to know when Orca, the most exciting part.
It's coming very soon.
I always posted a screenshot of the day, but it's way too early to be sharing those things.
Very rough and ready. But the thing...
So back on Kajira, actually, as a layer one,
and also when we were back on Terra,
Orca was kind of this isolated market
from the more general swap market, right?
From a Terrasoft or from whatever exchange that you would use.
And so the opportunities that were massive, right?
They were kind of like exploitatively massive, I think.
You could achieve up to a 30-inch discount
if you kind of noticed that something was about to be liquidated
and nobody else was looking at it,
which it's great, right?
Like it was fun,
but it's not really the best design for a system
because it's not great for
the uh the guy getting liquidated um they're not going to come back again right then i'm like okay
yeah i'll take out another loan because i might lose 30 percent of my collateral that has to be
liquidated so we now the new design now allows us to liquidate through the spot market because
the the secondary reason well actually the primary reason for that is because the support market is now backed by ThorChain's pools.
So ThorChain provides a settlement, provides the 120, 130 million, whatever it is, of liquidity to settle these liquidations.
So what Orca is going to turn into and what it's going to become is this kind of like turbocharged liquidation hunting engine.
So it doesn't give you like exclusive access anymore
for a 30-foot discount,
because that's unfair and exploitative.
But what it will give you is it will show you
what is at risk on Rojira,
and it will compare that to the wider market,
to the external market, because that matters, right?
Like if the price is approaching some kind of critical price
for longs or shorts,
then you're going to want to know about that because it's going to affect what
you're going to liquidate on Ruby.
It will show you what the lending limits are, what the borrow limits are,
all the market dynamics, the recent liquidations,
the individual accounts that are at risk.
All these kind of, it's going to be like a turbocharged liquidation
hunting dashboard and it's, Yeah, it's great.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
Go ahead, Ken.
Can we zoom out a bit maybe?
I think why this matter is important.
This ties into 10-10, October 10th, right?
And all the auto liquidations that happened then.
Can you maybe speak to that, Hans?
Yeah.
I mean, this is it, right?
I posted this other day that when we started, Koochee,
I've been out of the crypto space for a few years
because it was incredible.
I remember the first time I read about Ethereum
and I opened my laptop and I downloaded the death
and started mining.
It's like permission is participation, it's incredible.
I was like, we can all be part of this and then the fucking icma happened and you get like
eos who raised god knows how many billions and delivered basically nothing like well i just i
just switched me up from the whole thing um and so when we found a qji in in 2021 i was just like
this we have to build something that is meaningful that is valuable and that is that is like true to these these these values that like you know community ownership
we like you know community and and being doing the right thing by people as to yeah best we can um
and so and so yeah so 1010 was like a it it was like the antithesis of that, again, it's like,
you know, suddenly you have these institutions who don't fuck up and suddenly like everyone's
all getting liquidated and nobody really knows why they've been liquidated or where that
money's gone or who's profited from it.
And it's just, it's just, that's just horrible.
Right.
And, and we have this opportunity now to build a system that is open source and transparent
and, and built for the people that are using it like
like i was just saying like you don't want this kind of like extractive manipulative 30 discount
because you know oh you got on the wrong side of that trade right like all you really need to do
is is um cover the solvency of the system you don't have to like down somebody for 30 so
system you don't have to like down somebody for 30 percent so this is i don't know i'm rambling
again let me if you don't mind just me jumping in so like where what i was referring to on 1010 was
like binance and hyper liquid well and other exchanges but they they got the most attention
is that they made money on liquidating people's positions and um so it creates a perverse incentive where
the the exchange is actually working against their users and um whereas you solve that problem on AppLayer with your version of perps is that, yes, there are liquidations, but the protocol doesn't benefit from that.
The users, the users can participate in those liquidations.
The users, yeah, the users can participate in those liquidations.
users can participate as liquidations.
If you, you know, we have what we call Oracle slash tracking orders,
which allow you to say, I am willing to buy Bitcoin at 3% below the market price.
And your order will move every single block.
And it will always be 3% below what the adjoined Oracle says the price of Bitcoin is.
And so you can participate in these liquidations.
But the other piece here, the other side of it is for the borrowers.
And when you create a credit account, let's say like a simple example here you want
to borrow usdc against your bitcoin you can determine you say if you have to liquidate my
account you must try this order book first like it's a it's a specific contract and you must
swap it on this order book first. And assuming that's fine,
and my account is now in good health
after you've done that,
you can't do anything else.
So you can define exactly
how somebody is allowed to liquidate your account
rather than it being this kind of black box of,
hey, I've stumped up my margin.
I put a thousand dollars here
and now I've got some kind of leverage.
And then suddenly like,
oh, I've now been liquidated and it's all gone
and I'm not sure why or where or who to.
And then and this is one of the advantages of ThorChain's liquidity
pools is that in theory, it like you can't have like a flash crash of
a token price going to one cent and back up. It's basically impossible
with the liquidity pool, right?
So the credit accounts are valued based on the enshrined oracle, which it uses,
DoorChainTek, it uses the enshrined Bifrost validators all gossip amongst themselves.
They draw prices from at least three different exchanges each for each token they submit a price to. Anybody trying to submit the price that's too high or too low just gets rejected from the vote.
But that's the price that it gets valued against.
My bad, sorry. That's right.
So the Inchiant Oracle, that's pulling price feeds not just from the third chain pool,
but from like how many different exchanges is it falling from?
I would need to look at how many providers. I think somewhere between 10 and 15, I think.
Each node operator, the same way that a node operator runs Bifrost and Bifrost observes the
transactions that are occurring on every connected chain, sees that there's a deposit to an Asgard
vault and says to every other node operator,
hey, oh, we've all seen this.
Two thirds of us agree that we've had a deposit
to our Asgard vault, therefore, we will now execute
whatever that deposit was, whether it was a swap
or a secured asset deposit or whatever.
It's exactly the same trust model that we use
for the enshrined Oracle.
So every node operator, every block,
fetches prices for each token uh registered
on the on the oracle from at least three different sources out of 15. um they average them themselves
they all submit them uh as part of the next block and then the protocol um basically averages out
those prices all like so so the node operators are averaging their own prices to submit,
and then the protocol itself averages out the submissions from each node operator.
And that's how we get the Oracle price.
Is the Oracle pulling from Maya, Chainflip, and Nier?
Not currently. I think they're mostly centralized exchanges that it pulls the price from
uh it was there is there any reason not to or or i mean we had as many providers as you like
what's also another while we're talking about the oracle um when you look at like
When you look at like a Chainlink or a Pith or whatever,
these are all user land oracles.
So you, so, you know, these guys,
they submit prices to multiple chains,
but they have to submit those prices
as part of a regular block, right?
So they don't get any like special access
to the start of the block or the end of the block
or whatever, they just broadcast the transaction.
So they can be front run and an MEV is a thing um and so often you can you have
to on some platforms you have to open a position uh and then you're you have to like notionly open
it and then confirm it in the next block because otherwise you get this kind of like prescience
leak where uh the chain link or whoever
the article provider is have they posted a price for a different chain and you know a fraction of
a second before you can see what the price is going to be and if you can see what the price is
going to be you can open the position in the direction you need to and profit from that in a
very small way but you do that every block and then and you start trading pools. What is very nice about the way the implementation of the ThorChain enshrined Oracle
is that it is guaranteed to be the first transaction in a block
because that's the way that the protocol is coded.
And so you have this.
The priority that the Oracle is given means that you can't get this front running,
get a much better user experience.
You open a position and that same transaction the position is live right it's
not like you have to confirm it and if you haven't confirmed it in time then you know you've lost
your profit or whatever um yeah so it's it's basically it's basically an oracle that you
can't manipulate and can't find run which very few other chains have if any
which very few other chains have, if any.
Cool.
Petro, do you...
To your question about why mostly centralized exchange,
it's just a function of volume and liquidity.
All the swagger price are weighted by volumes
and the reality is at the moment,
there is much more volume on Binance
and a few other big centralized exchange than on chain.
So you get a more reliable representation of the market price by taking sources from there.
But there is nothing preventing us to add on-chain sources in the future, especially as
this liquidity move from off-chain to on-chain Indefi.
Okay. So this has been a great conversation.
For me, because I'm hearing Kenton hearing code Hans, you guys talk like there is something really
special here. All right. We're talking about it. Like we're, we're, we're dancing around it,
but like, if someone's listening to this, whether live or the recording, like soundbite time,
right? Like why, why should I use Regera instead of something maybe like a hyperliquid or an Aave or any type of centralized exchange?
Right. And I think the core difference here is that everything, absolutely everything is fully audible.
All the information is going to be on chain on chain. Excuse me.
And like what CodeHan said, like, why did I get liquidated?
This is often a black box. You could not figure out what happened, what you did wrong.
But if you get liquidated, let's say on Rojira, at least you'll know why it happened.
You will be able to dissect everything.
And this is the most important thing.
No KYC, permissionless access to a decentralized liquidity engine that'll allow you to do almost every single
primitive that exists. Well, I think probably every primitive will eventually come. This is
the zero to one. This is the huge moment. This is what we have been all been trying to build for so
long. And it is coming 2026. I am so excited, Code Hans, what you are building. And what we're
all building together, I should say. What can we do better like i mean i kick it
you kohans like what on the thor chain side you know i try to promote rogera as much as possible
but is there any weaknesses on our end that you want to address or something like that like
dissect thor chain right like where can we be better uh that's a good question. And honestly, it's not really something I've even thought about.
I don't think there's anything you can't point a finger and say, do this better, do that better.
This is a process and we're all aligned, right? That's the most important thing. As long as we
have alignment, then we will move in the right direction. Um, so just
keep these, keep these spaces happening, keep the dialogue open, keep the conversations happening
and, and, and maintain that alignment. That's great. And you know, that's the one thing,
cause I always get insecure about like, are we doing the right thing? Um, especially when I'm
not hearing feedback, but if we're not hearing feedback, then I think that means we're doing
okay because
no one seems to have concerns i mean if you went back a year ago it was just nothing about it was
just constant feedback feedback feedback which is useful information right like feedback's not
not necessarily a bad thing but yes that is one thing we're going to keep doing we are going to
keep doing these spaces we're going to keep talking about it and uh guys I'm so excited for 2026, but rest assured, we will incur issues,
problems, unique situations. I think you've all seen just the interesting problems that we have
run into that were unforeseen simply because we are truly developing a zero to one, whether it's
keeping the website going, it's the data throughput issues we've had. Um, we're going to keep this
dialogue going. We're going to keep these spaces going. And, um, I want you guys like, please,
if you ever want to do a, a Regeran space, like you want to talk about something new or exciting,
please let me know. Uh, because keeping both sides of the equation up to date informed,
I think that is one of the most important things
we can do as a community going 2026 so um awesome well i'm glad they're we're doing everything we
possibly can um but again guys just keep it up uh kenton you got something yeah i do i am
wondering if there's something we can do better um i'm curious about the block times and like the
speed in in the transactions.
So like, you know, this is something hyper liquid promotes, right?
Or is it 200 millisecond block times?
And, you know, these high frequency traders, it's all about speed.
And like, even like in the stock market, like the Wall Street will pay a premium to get their offices as close as possible to the exchange to cut the distance
on the wires because even with the speed of light it still makes a difference on their trading
being physically closer to the exchange um i'm curious what you guys thoughts are there like
on on app layer that you know do we how can we make things as fast as possible for these traders?
So my view on this is that,
as you say,
Wall Street will pay a premium to put an office closer to location.
We want to build,
and we are building an unstoppable permissionless decentralized protocol.
Part of that is having a globally distributed network of validators and node operators.
And then you are constrained by the speed of light and you're constrained by the rules
of your consensus protocol.
So yes, clock times are what, six seconds right now, roughly.
It can be faster, but I think it is a, it's not a good idea to go chasing after the kind of,
we're gonna be the fastest bot team because the,
or we're gonna try to be faster than Wall Street
because you're never going to do it, right?
Somebody that has a centralized server in one office
and everybody else is paying to be really close
to that server so they've got the shortest cables
to that server, there's like, there is no way
that you can build a permissionally centralized protocol that competes with those kind of speeds but what we can do is we can flank
those kind of those operations and we can be we can we can stand up for the things that we actually
care about right to be like community owned to be transparent to be fair which wall street is not
right and that's those those are like the the the lines that we that we that we draw the
battle lines that we draw and that's where that's the front that we fight on it's not trying to be
like 10 milliseconds faster than somebody else because it's just the reality is it's not going
to happen so that is that is the benefits of centralization is speed um so instead of but
the benefit of decentralization is safety so you know instead
of trying to be the fastest we're purporting we're trying to be the safest safest most transparent
community owned fair like all the things that actually matter right like sure right if you i'm
gonna beat you on a trade i'm gonna i'm gonna scout you for 10 bits or whatever it is but
let's actually build a financial system that is accessible to everybody,
that benefits the users and has the roots for community ownership,
which you can say none of those things apply to Wall Street or traditional banks
or central exchanges or any of that kind of stuff.
Or even some of the so-called DeFi protocols.
Yeah, exactly.
So, okay, so then
when I hear that, I think,
okay, ThorChain is playing the long, you guys are
playing the long game, right? We're building
stability, something that can survive
and last and persist.
Whereas, like, you know,
the flavors of the day will
come and like, oh, we're 10 milliseconds faster and this and that.
And everybody will use it.
But then eventually, because there's the only way to be that fast, there's just some element of centralization.
That's going to end up, they're going to burning out.
You know, the problems are going to surface and they could even blow up maybe.
Whereas store change is going to keep humming along, keep doing its thing because it's building stability and security and safety um is that a way to to think about it yeah absolutely
the number of times i've had people come to me and be like it'd be more like blast it's only a
couple years ago but they were like massive for about three weeks and then suddenly just disappeared
or be more like this person or be more like that chain or whatever and you can kind of see it's all just hype driven it's all narrative driven which is
it's great sure fine whatever right i'm sure some people got rich off that and whatever and
it's great it is what it is right but i i personally speaking i i i got into this space
because it had this kind of opportunity for community ownership and the decentralization and all those
kind of like kind of like really like good things um and so i'm certain that's what i'm here for so
if that's what we're going to build frankly yeah i'm here for the uh uncense and censorship um
that's the thing too with you know those those platforms if they are sacrificing decentralization
or speed uh they're eventually going to be censored or be forced to censor and um and that's
another another i think that's the real value add for thor chain and app layer is not being censored
yeah yeah absolutely so um i i do do maybe change the subject a bit.
What's the deal with orbital pools?
That's, those sounded pretty cool.
And that was like, you could have like five different
stable coins all in one pool.
And it seems like that's been,
Shell, put on the back burner?
So the concept of orbital pools is a kind of
multi-dimensional stable invariant.
And it was proposed in a paper.
I think we were the first team to sit down and write it in anger.
And it seems that potentially, I mean, maybe we didn't understand it properly, but there's
a potential that actually the
fundamental principle just doesn't work.
So it is on the back burner.
It's obviously a very exciting, very interesting concept.
It makes sense logically.
And so there should be some kind of, there should be some way to make it work but uh yeah it's uh it's a work in progress
all right cool um okay so 2025 seems like this was the year of building 2026 is going to be the
year of scaling right to start you know actually growing and using everything you guys have built
like are you are we at that point now yeah i, I think we're kind of, we are,
we've kind of crossed that line now.
So, like you say, credit accounts are now in,
they've got a bug bounty open
that will run through the 16th of June, January.
And after that, training wheels come off,
we open the the lending limits um we roll up in
uh like rudy trade 1.1 it's got um a bunch of new features 1.2 is going to pay more like
it's yeah we're we're definitely kind of obviously like lots lots of new products
lots of new features but we are in train it's kind of like right now we've got a thing that we can grow.
Right on.
And I have maybe like you asking earlier if we are mostly done with the development.
On my view, so as Hassan said, like now we have something to push on the credit side. But what he said earlier is there are really two parts in DeFi.
You have credits and then you have trading. I think we are in a very good place now on the credit side,
but we still need to do a few more things, relatively simple things, but to improve the
trading side. And then we have the combination of the two, because if we only have the credits, but people can borrow, but then they can do nothing except maybe take a loan against USDC to our Trump,
which is a valid escape, but it's not going to create economic activity.
If you want to boost economic activity, boost volume of trading,
which eventually, because that's just a much higher velocity
for the same quantity of capital at work, you You turn it much faster, you make more revenue.
We need to provide better tools.
Right now we have the order book and people can play with limit orders
or a call order or market orders.
But the reality is
most of your volume don't come from people like just clicking and placing a few trades.
Yes, once in a while you may have a big well that will come.
It's going to track them and that will place some large order.
But most of your volumes is coming from people doing market making,
using two links effectively to instead of having to themselves
decide every time to buy and sell.
That's the beauty of DeFi.
You can just define Uniswap V3 conservative liquidity pool
is a beautiful product.
It has a product market fit,
like there are over 4 billion of assets
doing that on Uniswap.
And that's probably by a large margin
the biggest way how people trade in DeFi.
They don't buy and sell manually.
They decide, okay, for BTC at this price,
I'm happy to be 100% in BTC at, I don't know, 50K. And at 150K, I'm happy to be 100% USDC.
And now that's my view on the market. And I'm going to put a consolidated liquidity position
in this range. And because there is volatility as long
as price move i'm gonna keep buying and selling and collect small fees on that and that's how
i'm gonna make money and i generate yield on this uh on this position without having to be there at
my screen doing anything manually uh and that's the beauty of it and uh i think this is the other
piece that is missing.
It's offering a great market-making strategy.
Right now, we have just XYP pools, but nobody uses that anymore.
I mean, it's good.
You need that a bit to have pricing curve from zero to infinity,
especially for tokens that have lower market caps and lower liquidity.
But if you want to trade to become a blue- DEX for all the large cap tokens, what you need is a better tool for that.
And the beauty is that we can allow people to use those tools for not just Ethereum because
you're in ZVM world or Sol token because you're in Solana.
We can do that for all the native tokens of all the connected chain, but we need those
tools.
So we need concentrated liquidity, Unisort V3.
And we also need, we have a design,
I have something that I need to expect a bit more,
but it's already modeled in Excel.
I think it will be very cool that we complement the CL strategy
that will offer a very different way also
to make market in a very efficient way by using oracle orders and
that's very unique to something we can do and then that's i think when we start to really scale
volumes and also increase demand for loading landing because now you can borrow in your credit
account and use this phone to generate yield by market making uh i'm not doing uh x y case that's
gonna maybe yield you one or two percent per year, but doing something that can be closer to 10 to 30 percent APR,
potentially more, and having strategies to start to trade once against another.
So even when two traders that are not in front of their screens,
they keep trading as long as there is volatility.
And that's how I think we can start to churn volume, attract demands,
and generate revenue for blockchain and for the world ecosystem and the other side of that is once we
improve that the next step once we have this uh decent liquidity on uh the app layer we can start
to uh internalize arbitrage some of the arbitrage at least that is currently happening between
Sunrise Exchange and Torchain. And we can do that in a much more efficient way. And by doing so, we can start to effectively improve the pricing of Torchain base layer pool, because
instead of like currently, like we have done some research, and arbitrageurs tend to be very gradient or change that let the price deviate by sometimes 40 to 60 bps from what we measure as a market price using unshrined oracles.
And you don't need to deviate that much.
You can arbitrage earlier, capture shorter, smaller profits, but keep the price aligned.
So you arbitrage more frequently with smaller deviation,
and you keep the price closer to the Oracle.
And doing that, we can also generate a lot of volumes
and a lot of fees for both Torchain and Rugee.
So those are the things I'm excited about.
I think that's the part that is still missing in terms
of building.
Once we have those two sides, the credits and the trading,
then we are in a very good place to scale.
And then it will be time to also build tools to help scaling,
and that will be notably all the referral
and the affiliate programs.
So we can start to push people to come with affiliate code for calls, but also the protocols to build on top is an easy way to monetize.
But I think first and very exciting is getting also the other side of credit, which is trading.
Very, very exciting.
Yeah, sorry, Pedro.
Pregnant of Monkey, I apologize.
How is AppLayer going to help get the tighter spreads on quotes on the base layer?
Is it because of credit markets people will borrow and be more capital efficient?
No, no.
I'm talking about not credit market.
I'm talking about the trading part.
So I think IMM strategy that leads on the AppLayers, Uniswap is freestyle and also using Oracle orders.
So I'm not talking about credit here. the app layers, Uniswap is freestyle and also using Oracle orders.
So I'm not talking about credit here.
Those are two can work together if you do leverage trading.
Once we have this liquidity on the app layer, we can internalize part of this trading.
So instead of trading, so let's say we have a market-making strategy that every block provides you liquidity on at least one side, either the buyer or the sell side, at the Oracle price virtually.
Maybe with three bips or two bips difference because we need to get a bit of profit for the LPs,
but very close to the Oracle price.
And instead of using this price, because we use
Enshrine Oracle, it's different from the base day year price.
So now, if somebody comes and do a big trade on the base day
year and it deviates price, which usually happens,
especially when you have this big streaming swap,
price start to be, arbitrage have to wait for some time,
your profits, and then they capture the arbitrage.
So let's say sell on the to push back the price
if you went to two high, back to market price,
at the same time buy on the centralized exchange
and captures this delta net of fees between the two different prices.
Well, instead of doing that with a centralized exchange, we can start,
we can write a contract and do that at least in parts based on whatever liquidity
we have available on the app layer, do that between the base layer and the app layer.
And by doing that, if we increase the frequency, so effectively it's a function
of how much do you let the price deviate from market
price, from the oracle price before you arbitrage. If we do that, the more frequently we do, we could
do it every block potentially and let the price deviate just by whatever, like 10 bips, 15 bips,
depending on cost on both sides, of course. But we can do it much more faster than what we see by
looking at the data arbitrage are currently doing.
And by doing that, it means we keep the price,
every single block of the Bay Area pool,
much more in line with the market price.
And that means a better pricing.
And so is the other side of that.
So is that part clear?
Sorry, I'm still having a hard time following it.
Because if it's...
I understand you can, on AppLayer, you can try and get the price close to the Oracle price.
But then if you go to realize it, you still have to use the ThorChain base layer price.
I'm a little bit...
Yeah, no.
So imagine...
So a whale come on ThorCh chain and do a one billion streaming swap
to buy bitcoin with usdc so it's gonna start to buy bitcoin by bitcoin and this is gonna push
mechanically the price of bitcoin on the base here up and up and up and every block it goes a bit
higher as a different size as well and the the only way this price come back to whatever is the
current market price which we can measure by
the oracle price, is by having an arbitrage
that come and say, oh,
now the price of Bitcoin on the
blockchain base here is higher than the
market price. I'm going to sell there,
and at the same time, I'm going to buy on
Binance, and I'm going to capture this spread.
then the question is, how long
do you wait
before you do this arbitrage
you activate it and you you effectively by selling by selling it uh on the top chain push back the
price to a market level and what uh we can do is just right now what we see when you look at the
data and at some point we just share an article, just don't want to do that quite yet,
still we have a bit more advance from the theory to the practice,
but what we see is the deviation stands to be much higher
than what would be required to still have a profitable arbitrage.
And the more you let the price deviate, the more the pricing of the base that you're cool and the quote, your
swap kit and waiver is requesting a quote from the top chain quote on point, we have
a price that is off compared to the market price.
And so that means, well, maybe sometimes you will be more competitive, but most of the
time it will probably be that you are less competitive than other people that can cut right at the market like near intent or whatever and by internalizing those arbitrage
and being less greedy in terms of arbitrage profit research we can reduce the delta between the
average price of the base layer pool and the market price every single block. Okay, I think I might get it.
So instead of right now on the base layer, the way it currently is, ARBs have, ARBs,
they trade between base layer and a centralized exchange.
But now with app layer, the ARBs will be able to trade between base layer and app layer,
which will be much more efficient, much quicker,
and therefore should have tighter spreads.
And then every once in a while,
they might settle between app layer and a centralized exchange.
Is that right?
Yes, exactly.
So actually, the idea would be not to internalize that
for both Torchain and Rojira,
so we will not even, not just like,
let, I mean, third party arbitrage will be able to do that,
but we will also do that,
have a contract that does it automatically
and shares the profits between Torchain and Rojira.
And that's very powerful because it's a lot of volumes
and a lot of uh revenue
that suddenly instead of leaving those profits on the table for example arbitrage we can capture
part of that and increase uh revenue for and cash flow for both of our protocols so so that's um
i think something very very exciting and uh yeah it's a but for it to be possible we need
And yeah, but for it to be possible,
we need good liquidity,
able to price very close to Raquel on the app layer.
Okay, I got to jump.
Sorry.
I'm so sorry, Kenton.
I need to jump in real quick.
Code Hans has to leave in a few minutes.
So I just want to make sure we give him a little bit of time here.
Do you have any closing thoughts for us, Code Hans,
before you do leave?
The floor is yours.
Oh, I mean, I think I've said my piece so far.
Yeah, I mean, I've posted on it a few times.
The whole kind of like doing what we did on Kodera,
but having access to native assets, native B2C, native E,
and all the, everything we're gonna add now,
you know, obviously the like-find, the XRP,
everything we've already, all the things are coming.
Being able to interact with them directly
and interface with those chains was a bit of a pipe dream.
And now we're here and we're kind of, you know,
the building up ahead of Steam and things are moving
and it's just, there's some very exciting things coming.
I'm looking forward to what 2026 has in store.
Do you have time for just a quick question
from a community member?
I think you might be the best to answer it.
They want to know, could you estimate the quarter
when maybe a bitcoin backstable coin is planned to launch i i i um generally don't answer when's
uh because things change and uh priorities get reshuffled um and emergencies happen
get reshuffled and emergencies happen and all sorts of things.
But as far as a ranked priority goes,
we have a bunch of kind of eyes to dart and tees to cross
and bugs to iron out over the next couple of weeks.
But once we're through that,
and once we get the next version of Rudy Trade Live,
then, yeah, I think the mint vault that I talked about
earlier should be a notionally trivial thing to build.
He says now, probably won't be, but that is,
you know, it's going to unlock so many things.
It's going to unlock that stable coin.
It's going to lock the cloud market.
It's going to unlock, yeah other things but so we'll
talk about it another time um can i squeeze in one more question is that okay yeah yeah yeah go yeah
yeah okay perfect um this is a really fun question and then maybe pragmatic you can do it but uh
uh this is basically a you know i know you don't have projections but it's a fun question it says
you know what what do you think on a high
level volumes total volume lock target key performance indicators so codons i'll ask you
the final question what would you think success would look like in 2026
it's a good question right like i i i i don't think you and i'm going to kind of step back a few steps on this, I don't think you
like you don't achieve success by having some metric that like when I get to this point that
is success because you, like success isn't a target, success is a process and it's the thing
you have to wake up when you want to keep moving forward every morning and you have this kind of
like this like uh adjustment almost that that okay great like you start from zero and now it's like
okay now we're doing whatever it is right like you can just put no i'm doing 100 a day whatever it is
and wow that's a good day 100 a day it's like okay and then the next day like oh it's only 100 today
right let's go let's i want to wake up tomorrow we're going to do 200 and then like oh that's great i've done 200 today i mean and then it
becomes kind of a norm and so that like i don't i don't think there's like a you can't just say
oh we're going we're going to do 100 million a day or or in volume or whatever it is right it's
what you have to have confidence in is that we are here in the trenches not those kind of trenches
but like we're actually building something and and and we wake up every morning and we want to
keep building it and we want to make it bigger and stronger and we're as long as you're doing
the right thing in the right way it will continue to grow um it's yeah i p. know has has has models and targets and numbers but yeah I am
like I'm gonna wake up today and I'm gonna make them better and I'm gonna do
it tomorrow in the day after the day after and I'm not gonna share any
targets or models and this type of things because anyway it's all who got it in extreme what we need to
do is get those trading tools in then start to build a baseline of numbers and we'll have analytics
we're working on that as well and then that's how once we have this baseline that's how we measure
success because there was a question is how do we grow that in terms of metrics uh but as i said the key part is are we
showing up every day and building this and making sure uh metrics start on the right direction for
now because we don't have this baseline because we don't have all the the copies yet uh talking
about targets is uh is really meaningless but also as a decentralized protocol uh i think we should
also refrain from that.
This is when you start to make a forward-looking projection and share that publicly, it puts
you in a risky territory. So the best we can do is to then share good analytics and allow
people to make their own projections based on reality and what has been achieved, resources
and forward-looking stuff provided by the team itself
Great great, and I know you have to go coat Hans I just want to thank you very much for surprising us today with your presence. I I know the regira guys really love that
I certainly love that and
You know, I just hope you have a Merry Christmas or whatever holiday you you celebrate and a happy new year get some family time in and
I'm so ready for 2026 buddy
just thank you very much again for giving us your time so i know you're super busy no no thank you
guys it's joy it's great happy uh happy holidays to everyone and uh see you in the new year
i'll see you in the new year buddy thanks fans great
um when it comes to myself um you know key performance indicators i'm not really much of a
numbers guy on this either but i will say if the community if both ecosystems are shared ecosystems
but there's no conflict if everyone seems to be up to date, if people are informed, if their issues come up and we address
them efficiently, we communicate, we have dialogue, we course correct. If we're able to do that as a
community, I'll consider that partially successful on my part. That's my focus. That's my goal,
at least. Guys, and if you feel like I'm shortcoming, or if I can do better, please give
me feedback. I have no ego on this. I just want to be the best I can be. So at least that's my
perspective. That's what I'm going to keep doing. So yeah. Do you mind if we pick up where we left
off? Pragmatic Monkey and Arving? So my smooth brain still needs time to catch up so
um let me know if i got this right so on the on the base layer of door chain to arb like you know
we have to rely on block times um the time for the centralized exchange to to deposit or withdraw
you know there's just simply time you know it takes to go between the two and the arbs have
to factor that into their um uh you know risk analysis right so that's probably why they need
need bigger spreads to make it make sense whereas if the arbs can are between
like they need to go to the centralized exchange to find the price of bitcoin or whatever right and now on app layer with with oracles they can find
the price of bitcoin on the app layer and so they can are between instead of r being between
base layer and centralized exchange they can are between the app layer and base layer because now
they have a feed for that um you know air quotes true bitcoin price. And arbing between the app layer and base layer
is six seconds.
Like it doesn't, it's like orders of magnitude faster
than trying to arb between the base layer
and a centralized exchange.
Therefore, am I wrong?
Am I right?
Am I on the right track?
No, I don't think it's so much a question of speed here, because arbitrage, and I'm no expert in how they operate exactly, secured assets, except that they cannot be a transfer, I think. But you can instantly settle on a Torchain block speed. So it
means every six seconds you could theoretically take an arbitrage between your Sets and Torchain.
So it's more, I think, a question of there is not enough arbitrageurs, competition between
arbitragers, or maybe there are other reasons I'm not getting,
but I think it's a lack of competition, which means that they tend to let price deviate more
than necessary because nobody else is there to say, oh, it's kind of a game of chicken.
Imagine you have like 10 arbitrageurs all competing from a spray.
So you will have the price of the base layer pool,
Bitcoin in the base layer pool,
just start to deviate from the price on Binance.
And then first, because you have to factor your fees on each side,
a few bips won't be enough to be profitable.
But at some point, boom, let's say you have like 20 bips difference,
and now it's profitable to do that.
But if you take the arbitrage now,
after fees, maybe you will just be doing
like five bips of profits.
So, but from there,
every single block you let pass.
So every six seconds you let pass
and the price continue to deviate.
The more, the bigger your profit
and whatever is beyond your initial cost is pure margin.
So then it's just a matter of which arbitrage
is going to be the first one to take this arbitrage,
to sell your Bitcoin on the base of your pool
and to buy at the same time on Binance.
And so I think just that there is not enough people competing
to get that,
or I don't know, or the collusion between arbitrage, I'm not sure what it is.
But what I know is I have looked, I have downloaded a lot of data,
looking at minute data over several months.
And the deviation tend to be like 40 to 60 bps, sometimes even more,
and you don't need that much for a profitable arbitrage.
And so those same arbitrageurs, they could use trade assets
and still settle on Binance if they wanted to,
or we can do it ourselves.
We can create competition effectively with the arbitrageur,
making TorChain, I mean, making Rougira effectively,
but with a profit share with TorChain,
and arbitrage in our own ecosystem,
and itself relying on just on those external arbitrage
that take these profits.
We can be more aggressive because it's in the interest
of the protocol because it provides better pricing
and because it's a new stream of income, of revenue.
And we just compete with them.
Maybe actually they can still win some of those
or they have actually better terms at the fee we have to pay on the player side.
So some of those can be very large players that have like a half a beef
maker fee, take your fee on Binance.
So maybe they can be more competitive on certain parts.
But at least it forced them to take the arbitrage earlier
if they still want it.
So it's just in competition.
And that's what is increasing the pricing.
So speed here, of course, and that's what is increasing the pricing. So speed here, of course, and that's
take to your other question.
That's another thing that the longest, the longer
the block time, the more risk any arbitrage or any market maker
is taking between two blocks.
And so the less aggressive you can price
when providing liquidity.
It's it goes the same with arbitrage.
The longer you have to wait, the more deviation you may have.
So possibly kind of parting counsel out.
But generally, it just means like the more you have to wait,
the less frequently you can take this arbitrage.
And therefore, you have to have a bit less competitive pricing
versus a chain like you were talking about,
Hyperliquid, the 200 millisecond block,
they are sure will never compete there.
But there is also an opportunity down the road, I think,
to get a top chain block time to two seconds.
I mean, this is theoretically already possible.
The code has been shipped somewhere this year or earlier
by the Strangeload team before they
got relief of their functions.
And that would also add to increase the volumes and pricing
because just you can arbitrage more frequently
and keep price more aligned with the market as set and faster.
And just from six to two seconds will already
be a big improvement
compared to where we are now.
So, okay, thanks for that.
So then is another way to say to look at then,
basically app layers is going to provide better tooling
for traders to use,
and that will increase competition in the arbitrage space
and therefore should get us tighter.
In that case, we are talking about creating a contract that does the arbitrage itself.
I mean, for existing arbitrage, for other people who do that with trade assets or secure assets if they wanted to.
The tools are there.
What we are talking about is becoming an active actor in this field.
It's our step having a contract, our step as a protocol,
having a contract that practically look at the discrepancy
between the Bezier and the Appiah pool and capture those arbitrage,
the same way other party arbitrage versus centralized exchanges.
But except that we consume, to do that, we consume the liquidity.
Wait a minute, so you're saying this is going to be like a protocol-owned contract?
Yeah, it would be a contract, a smart contract.
So it would be a protocol, a set of rules that define,
oh, if price in the,
that is able to look at the price
and understand the price
and predict the price of,
not predict, but like,
see what will be the price
inside a certain block.
And then we have,
I don't want to go too deep into that,
but then we can insert
in this exact block,
we know also the price and the liquidity available on the app layer.
We know the price on the base layer.
We can say, oh, now the delta is, let's say, 25 bps.
So I'm going to take this arbitrage.
I'm going to buy on the app layer and sell on the base layer in the same block.
Or because on Torchains, things happen at the end.
Well, actually, we can do everything in the same block or because until change things happen at the end of well actually we can
do it everything in the same block first with on the app layer and then under block the counterpart
on the base layer and we can even like know exactly how many uh like what transactions are
in this block to have a more accurate estimate of what will be that price and kind of capture
actually a perfect arbitrage.
And that's think of it as a new product on Rojira,
but a product that is not like,
it won't be for users to deposit there.
We probably don't need liquidity.
We can probably do the same as virtualization strategy,
just borrow for a very short period
the token we need to do this arbitrage loop.
So again, it relies on a lending market, just like the virtualization strategy.
And now to access those profits, anybody that owns Ruji and is a Ruji stacker can access a share of those proceeds or anybody that owns Rune and bonds their Rune.
If we do a 50-50 split there which is uh what we are thinking of
even if technically we are already paying the base area fee but it's another consideration
what we could do is then uh torchain could lower the fee for uh secured assets and uh effectively
it will allow us to arbitrage even more frequently and because we share the profits from the arbitrage, you compensate the lower fee on the secured asset part by a new revenue stream that is arbitrage profits.
So it creates a new stream of income for the protocol.
So you keep saying that tools for external arbitrage, those tools are already there if
they want to.
What is missing is of course the liquidity close to a record price on the app layer.
But they have secured assets, they have trade assets, they can already arbitrage.
And they are doing it.
What we are talking about here is creating a new contract, a new protocol that is doing this arbitrage.
And that distributes this arbitrage proceeds between Torchain and Orgy. Wouldn't the existing ARBs then in theory go out of business,
and then the price discovery on the pools is actually the Oracle price?
And now the price on Torchain is being determined by an Oracle
instead of price discovery.
So first, it will always be constraints.
Like I was saying, some arbitrageurs may have very, very good terms on Binance
because they do very high volumes.
And so they may be able to arbitrage at actually lower spreads
that what we would need for this contract to be profitable.
So it's just increased competition,
but it doesn't put them out of business.
And some of them will still be there, I'm sure.
And also there is a big constraint,
which is how much liquidity is available on the app layer
to capture those arbitrage.
And especially initially, it won't be much.
So there is room for that.
But so first point, it's not going to remove
external arbitrage, absolutely not.
It's just going to create more competition.
And to win this arbitrage, they would have to price more
aggressively versus what they are doing now.
Second part, you are saying if we do that,
then the price center chain could become a price of Oracle.
But that's already what is happening.
Oracle price is a volume-weighted representation of price on centralized exchange.
And currently, price on the big data pool are effectively reflecting the price on centralized exchange,
the market price, which is based on the exchange where you have the most volume,
usually it's going to be Binance and a few of those.
And those arbitrage, by trading whenever there's enough deviation
between the price in the pool and the exchange,
by taking this arbitrage, they keep the price of the pool in line.
So that doesn't change anything.
Like at the end, no matter if the arbitrage is captured
internally or externally, that's why there is market, because there is a consensus at any point
in time of what is the market price. Usually the consensus is where is the price set? Typically,
it's going to be on Binance or the large centralized exchange. That would be also true
if you have enough liquidity there compared to the liquidity on Torchain.
And of course, you have much more.
You can do much bigger order on Binance for Bitcoin or ETH or whatever
versus what you can do on Torchain without moving the price.
So this will be where the price is set.
And then you arbitrage this reference price
with the base layerley at the end.
Everything is run towards this Oracle price.
This Oracle is just a representation of market
price, of what's a fair price based on the price we observe
on various different values that have large volumes.
Pei-Chi, do you want to jump in?
No, and maybe just another thing on that.
And if for some reason the Oracle was to be deficient and go crazy, then we would be a lot for the protocol.
So that's a risk.
But other arbitrageurs, that means, could step in and balance the price like let's say
they are oracle go crazy and we start to to completely deviate the price from the actual
market price uh then an arbitrage will come and we'll have even more opportunity incentive to
re-arbitrage towards the market price because now it's going in the wrong direction so uh yeah it's
um yeah it's not the oracle that defines the price.
It's still the market.
From the moment you have spot liquidity in the pool,
you have an opportunity to arbitrage
and assuming you have another place where you can sell or buy at a different price.
There we go.
Very interesting conversation, guys.
And that's a great thing you do, Kent,
and you get into the nitty-gritty and really define things. I really appreciate that. I do have a question from a community member on Ruggiero from Al. They want to know, one second, I am so sorry. They want to know, Pragmatic Monkey, are you working or is the team working on a simpler way to onboard retail to the Ruggiero system?
So, eventually, yes.
This will be...
Well, first of all, we are improving.
Every day, we collect a ton of feedback.
We have still a list of almost 200 tickets open of stuff we have to improve.
Most of that is UI, UX stuff.
So, we keep improving.
And I think people who have been there from the beginning
can already see a huge improvement
between how it was three months ago and how it is now.
So that's a continuous process.
But then the next step will be probably station,
our own mobile app.
It will be a done, done version of Rojira.
So the Rojira web app is fairly complex with all those tools
and stuff.
It can be a bit doubting if you don't know your way around.
The ID station will be to make it a very easy, accessible tool
that gives you access to the key feature without having all the details, effectively.
And that will come.
But again, it's just a matter of prioritization.
Like it will not make any sense to try to push now
for onboarding users,
but we are still making some core pieces,
including good market making strategy
and the liquidity on the spot market,
which in turn, when you combine with credit account,
for example, will allow us to create a delta neutral market making strategy.
We can then be used as a high yield saving account.
And that's something we can package in a station.
And people don't even know that in the back end,
they are using credit accounts and consolidated LPs.
They just see, oh, I can deposit my Bitcoin or my UFDC and get 6, 12, whatever will be the sustainable yield we can generate.
And that's very powerful.
And that's if you think about how Terra scaled back in the day and how they onboarded it.
They had such a success.
It was mostly around having this fairly easy interface
and having UST, which was offering this crazy 20% APR.
So it was a simple, stable coin-saving product,
of course, based on the flooded design which imploded.
But we can replicate some things that has...
So the yield, it's market dynamics,
so it will depend eventually of different factors,
but mostly how much we can make on a CEL strategy
that automatically rebalance in average,
and how much is the average cost to hedge this strategy,
either by using our upcoming future product
or just borrowing one side of the LP.
And then the net of that will still,
like in theory, if you look at the yield on the Uniswap,
you can see easily like 10% to 30% APR sustainable,
purely based on yield on CLLP position.
So let's say we have an average pouring cost at 6% to 10%.
They should still be able to create a saving product that has probably 5% to 20% maybe on the ARN.
It would fluctuate over time, but of sustainable yields without having exposure to impermanent loss,
effectively, or any token.
If you just pick the one you want, you edge the other side, and you save.
And that's a very powerful product that you can offer that in a mobile app for people
who don't understand the FI, don't care about it, but you can just say, hey, you have USDC or USD,
you want to save and make more than on your bank,
here is an option.
Of course, there are risk involved and disclaimer, blah, blah, blah.
But you have something, and if you want to dig into it,
this is how it works under the hood, and that's why it's sustainable.
And your collateral is USDC.
It's not some random new stable coin that's
is backed by uh nothing but with
got it sounds good um dash dang guys very good this has been a really fantastic space um
i i let me see here um you know one question I did ask OnlyHans.
Not OnlyHans.
Sorry, shout out to OnlyHans.
CodeHans, I meant to say.
Thanks, OnlyHans, for confusing me with the name.
I asked CodeHans, you know, what's getting you very excited for 2026?
So I want to give you the same question, Fragment.
What are you most looking forward to?
Oh, okay. So actually, Fragment and Mark. What are you most looking forward to? Oh, okay.
So actually, I did my part already.
That was what I was mentioning earlier, so I'm not going to repeat.
But effectively, I spoke about the credit side, but there are two legs to DeFi, credits and trading.
And I'm very much excited about the credit side. So CL Uniswap V3 strategies, Uniswap V3 style.
This new ILO strategy using Oracle order,
which I've been working out conceptually
and modeling in some spreadsheets.
And then once we have that, this third part,
which will be internalizing the arbitrage, or part of the arbitrage profits between applayer and blazelayer.
And after that, also then moving on to combining the strategy with credit accounts to create delta neutral selling products.
And yeah, that's for me, that's the key stuff I'm very, very excited about.
Very cool. Very cool. Well, I don't have any other questions, guys. that's for me that's that's the key stuff i'm very very excited about very cool very cool well
i don't have any other questions guys um shout out this is an open stage by the way uh anyone's
welcome to come here no one's requested yet um you know so i do encourage if anyone's this is
going to be the last space of 2025 you guys very very exciting uh kenton you got something
yeah um premium monkey i just wanted to make sure that we're we're still cool you're still cool with Kenton, you got something? Yeah. PrimianoMonkey.
I just wanted to make sure that we're still cool.
You're still cool with the ThorChain frontend swap interface,
swap.thorchain.org, that we do basically clone, copy,
regi trade, have all the same features, functionality,
and everything there for Applayer.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm all in for that.
I think the more we have other frontends, the better it will be.
For other frontends, that's also why we would have the referral and the FIA system.
But for Torchain, it makes total sense.
We don't need that. We can get started.
Like, for example, now we have CDP loans.
Once in mid-January, once we are done with the bug bounty competition and we can start to
increase the caps, it would be great to see you adding that directly to the front end.
Everything we build and whenever there is a product we add that makes
sense i think everything eventually should be there as well and uh yeah very likely we have
quite some overlap between the rogera touching communities pretty much the same family now
but still i think torchane has a much broader audience and so you can probably attract more usage,
and as a would, use the same protocols and real benefits.
So, yeah, 100%.
Is your front end, is it all open source?
Yes, it is.
We can just copy it, basically, and just swap the RUG logo
for Thorchain logo, and then it's all done.
Yeah.
You could do that, absolutely.
The art part is really all the API stuff,
because we show quite a lot, and we are connected to all those chain.
So that's the part where you will have to handle.
But if you copy, you could probably even use our API,
but that's a small question for us.
How do we do that eventually?
But you would have everything.
You could even like, we don't encourage
you to reuse the components we have been using, the wallet
connector, like still having to deal
with all those painful process of managing all those wallet
and all those chain.
We do this artwork for you and for all the other builders.
The tool are there.
So the components are there.
You can reuse them.
It's open source for this reason.
So yeah, you are very much welcome to use it.
Great. Awesome.
Yeah, I'm guessing it's probably not going to be until February.
Can we start looking into that?
We'll see.
Yeah, sounds good.
Like, I think February should sound like of like a good time yeah it's like
it's like a hand said about timing something i've learned that it's been painfully clear to me the
last several months like working on this front end like you know developers in time are in like
two different universes um i kind of given up asking for timelines and estimates
because it just may as well just like pulling numbers out of the air.
Yeah, exactly.
That's why, by the way, we don't give like always when, when, when.
As Anzo said, first things never go how you plan.
There's always issue you did not foresee that comes up.
And it's even more complex building on top chain
because you have to handle all this complexity of what
we call this only chain stuff, like all those different chains,
all those different balance with top servers,
all those different ecosystem.
Like it adds on top of the regular difficulty
of software development, it adds another layer of complexity.
So yeah, it's like based on where we are now,
I think February is a good time to start really digging into that.
For CTP loans, at least for sure, it will be ready.
It's already ready.
But yeah, we never know.
So yeah, I understand your frustration,
and especially, but yeah, that's something like,
I share the same, we all share the same,
but that's just the reality of how it is
and part of the cards we are dealt
when we built DeFi products.
Yeah, for sure.
I'm actually looking forward to it.
We can have a friendly competition about, you know, who is getting users to what website, which frontend.
Yeah, absolutely.
We can do that.
That would be fun.
We'll do some analytics to be able to track that.
Once we are like, yeah, it should be some way.
In the worst case, we could could use a referral code without any fees
because we already shared 50% of the fees.
It would not make sense that the Torch8 front-end
take some more fees on that, or then we
would do the same on the Rojira site
to take some more of the fee like this.
Everything makes sense, but we can do a referral code without.
Well, actually, no, but that would be bad
because then you cannot use the referral code yourself
to refer other users.
So we'll figure it out.
But for sure, there will be a way to track the source of traffic.
And if not, we'll add something.
It's easy.
And allow us to have a friendly competition
of where most of the volume is coming from.
And I have to give a shout-out to Erodite.
Am I saying his name right shout out to Erodite. Am I saying his name right?
Yeah, Erodite.
Well, you're asking a French fan,
so maybe I'm not the best in command.
Stacker.
Yeah, yeah.
Correct me if I'm wrong,
but he's helping with promoting and marketing Regera,
and he's definitely keen to do stuff together with
door chain we work together to try and promote app layer so um i've kind of kept them on the
strings like we're not quite there yet from the the thort chain marketing team point of view but
we will definitely get there and definitely looking forward to working together and try to go outlayer. Yeah, no, he's great. He leads marketing and together,
we have also GP Nami, but doing BD,
but he relates really on the marketing side
and also doing some BD because it's related
and very keen to work with you guys.
I know there are a ton of plans of stuff where we collaborate.
It's just getting a bit more of the tools,
but now we are getting there really.
I think CDP loans will be a perfect first integration
for the front-ends.
Once we have the market-making strategy,
I think that's also would be very cool.
Right now, people can't even
lp in most of the uh tor chain pools and in any case like lp is not interesting at all because
uh the state state of the incentive podium means every uh all the income goes to uh
to the operator but then suddenly uh once we have a cllps you can also provide that and people
will have an opportunity to put their native asset that works uh and generate some yields
and it makes total sense to to uh to include that as a new tab on the official torching for them
nice um patriot anything else yes i do um question on my part for you pragmatic monkey you know we
were doing the um friday uh live streams on the primitives that are coming on right um do you
think we'll be resuming them soon in 2026 um just you know give people. I am down for whenever we want to do that.
Yeah, so I think like, let's not force it
to be a weekly stuff if there is nothing to showcase.
The reason we have been postponing it
was because it was still a lot of bugs.
So we did this big omni-chain upgrade.
We changed everything from data structure,
like moving from a chain-centric model to a token-centric model
to all parts of the UI.
And as a result of that,
we were also doing some changes to the infrastructure.
And up to recently, we had quite,
there are still quite a few bugs that need to be run out.
But now I think we have run out out in apps that in the new year
we can do one.
And I think we can first showcase very simply
the omni-chain experience, where it is,
come connect your wallet, make a deposit,
make a withdrawal, and also showcase then CDP lots.
So it was really just a matter of we're having all those
country properties, new and defined errors when you are doing random stuff
on the UI that was not looking good for a live stream.
Sounds good.
And if you have any updates, while I'm thinking this now,
with the Coke and myself, we've started doing weekly updates.
You know, we're we're gonna with the holiday
season maybe we'll miss an episode episode or two but if you have any interesting sound bites or
facts or something you want to get out there um just send it to with the coke or myself and we
will add it to the weekly update yeah of course i i'll let you open. Usually, the best person for that is the Redites.
He also writes weekly recaps.
So pretty much every week, we have a long-form post that recaps all stuff that have been
happening on RooJira, but also in the broader ecosystem.
And so I think it makes a ton of sense to mix that with, to use that as an input effectively for your own rubric.
And what is cool is your version is in the form of a video,
which attracted different audience.
It's very good.
So I think you can take that and you will have every week things to say.
Perfect. Perfect.
Well, I'm looking at the telegram here, guys
I'm not seeing any other questions
So I assume that means everyone has been satiated
When it comes to curiosity
Do you guys have anything else at all?
I'm wondering if this may be a time to wrap
Of course, anyone can request to come up at any time
This is the last space
So I am prepared to go the extra mile
Despite how annoyed you guys get
When it comes to the time of these spaces
But this is the last space, guys We annoyed you guys get when it comes to the time of these spaces.
But this is the last space, guys. We're going to be off for like two weeks.
So I really want to give anyone the opportunity to come up and speak because, you know, it's so important to do.
But anything else, guys, that you can think of?
No, I'm good.
Pragmatic Monkey, do you watch emily in paris
no i haven't but a lot of people have told me i should watch that
oh it's a guilty pleasure mine it's a pretty like it's it's pretty um
how do you say it it's a pretty basic show but i actually i actually do watch i love the fashion um but uh. But just kind of just joking around, teasing you.
Maybe that's a good one for the early day season.
It's definitely not super interesting.
It's pretty.
It's very basic.
It's kind of like it's just something you put on,
turn your brain off.
Exactly.
We need those.
We need those stuff.
It's just important to keep your sanity in this space.
Yeah.
I was more curious if, as a Frenchman,
if you have any disdain for the American view of Paris.
They're just kind of bastardizing it.
I watch a few episodes, and then I'll let you know.
It would be a fun thing to discuss, to change a bit
of what we talk about.
Are you in Paris?
You don't have to dox yourself.
Or if you don't want to say, I'm fine.
I understand.
You can ask, no worries.
Do you live in Paris?
Is that where you are?
Oh, no, no.
I live in the UK actually.
So I've left France.
I haven't been in France for a very long time.
Over 10 years and 15 years I've been out.
But the accent is still there as you can see yes definitely yeah
well we have a new speaker oh we do okay we do we do yeah with the coke snuck up here with the
coke go ahead and test your mic how you doing buddy check 1212 i hope you can hear me let me
know i i can't hear you go ahead that's That's good. Yeah, maybe it was answered, but I had really spot internet,
so the conversation was dropping for me a lot,
so I have to really listen to it.
And thanks for the shout out, Patriot.
Yeah, tomorrow, as usual, we're going to do the recap.
But I just want to let you know, it's not going to be only the recap.
We want to do like functional demos as well,
and a lot of things in my mind to spread the love.
But the question for me, for the Pragmatic Monkey is that have you onboarded any new teams?
I remember you had like an Excel sheet of 20 teams who are like working, trying to get in.
Is there like any extra work going on in parallel to the main functionality or is it at the moment postponed until you have this Omnichain figured out?
We discussed that earlier, I'm going to recap for you.
We are still in discussion with a bunch of teams, but this was a mistake partially a mistake uh partially due to our uh history because
we came with already a bunch of builders from the kujiro side and also at some point when gp was
still very involved he was pushing get more team on board this is a very counterproductive thing
because at the end we have uh aunts who ultimately is the architect that understands the only one
who really understands how all the pieces
should work together and everything we knew is we do is so new that nobody that all the deaths
we have worked with like trying to do on the smart contracts stuff and they they tend to get blocked
very quickly and uh what happened is is ultimately this was consuming ton of
hands time and it was spending much more time fixing issues for others than moving on what
we should have been focusing first which are example, when the Lebanon's team was still around,
they took a very, very large amount of time.
They were not doing anything, also work to get things working with the base layer and all of that.
It has been answered.
And we got now Matteo also, Zephiro, who is great, which we got following the acquisition of NAMI.
And they are pretty much the two ones that really understand
the full system and can create those score primitives
in an efficient way.
So having goals of steam was distraction, waste of time,
and also trying to outsource some of the key parts
to other devs has proven very unsuccessful. For example, we paid some people to help first
with the virtualization strategy.
They found, I don't know, like two months or so
burning capital for doing code that
was completely unfunctional just because they did not
get the full picture.
It's complex.
You have to understand how Torchain works.
And then on top of that, you have to understand
how Ruchywa works.
And how all sorts of protocols interact together.
So no blanks there, but it's just complex.
And then we ended up spanning money for code
that will never be used.
And this has been a repeat story with pretty much all the other teams.
So we changed a bit the stance here.
Now it's focused first on getting the core primitives out.
And then, of course, the team has to be willing to help them as much as we can.
But we have also reduced this number of teams.
We have tried to cut people contributing stuff that ended up just doing code
that we are not going to end up using.
And the fail to onboard more people will be once we have all the score primitive in place.
And really, the goal will be to build stuff, value-added stuff,
on top of the score primitive and not try to build,
like paint the wall of a room before you have even built the foundation of the full house and have all the walls erected and the roof above your head.
It's just not the logical sequencing of things.
Thank you for recapping. Sorry that I re-asked the question.
I will rephrase or re-angle my question in a different way uh is there in the future gonna be plans to have like environment like east like there's the the
core terms and then anybody can uh come and uh build on top of it or it's always gonna be like
apple like you you will be the gatekeeping and doing everything i'm wondering that i don't know
if it was asked smart Smart contracts will remain permission.
And also depending on how we are going to do things for the referral and affiliate system,
there is a way to do that 100% in a very powerful way.
That could have all the future I have been drafting in the issue, if you have been following that, that would be very, very nice.
But that would require using proxy contracts.
So even for security reasons, we could not
allow permissionless deployment of contracts.
But that's a great thing.
Then we will see when the exclusivity
on the Torchain wants to change how things are working.
But I think we lose the ability to do certain very powerful things,
such as referral and affiliate and chain, if we do that.
And we want this coherence in the ecosystem.
And no matter what we do, the way it's structured now,
ANT always has to review and approve the contracts,
just for security reasons, as it was also described and pushed by GP in ADR 20,
that is the one reviewing also things.
So we cannot really, like if we go permission,
again, I don't want to have this conversation again.
We have had like many, many times,
but it would be a completely different beast.
Like something also like internalizing arbitrage
would be, I mean, it would be a completely different beast uh like something also like internalizing arbitrage would be uh uh i mean it would kill a bit uh i mean the plan we have around that but
it will it will just completely change uh how things works and how we position the business and
that's something we can really revisit whenever it will be up for a vote by another operator, if they wish.
In that case, this will come with reducing the revenue contribution.
But for now, there is not even revenue to share, so I think it doesn't make sense to us this conversation.
And what I think also is once it would be team building on top of the core primitives.
If we offer access to the product via the Ruggira front end and via the Torchain front end,
we will always want to have a look into the contract
to really understand how it works under the woods,
to have them audited and other things.
So we need this level of curation.
Otherwise, if you get, we would probably,
maybe we want to also integrate them in our BUNTI program.
But that costs us money.
Every time there is a bug, we have to pay for it.
So yeah, you need, I think, for the foreseeable future,
you need this curation.
Or then, yeah, you don't offer any of that in the Torchain
or RUG, but who knows?
So like, somehow, it's going to create issues.
But I don't know, it's risky.
I don't see the upside of doing that now.
And especially if we are in this vision of building this business effectively
with this unified front-end that also has that work together.
Even people building on top, we want to integrate them as part of this UI and UX.
Yeah, perfect, perfect. I actually didn't want to spark the debate between how it should go.
I was just wondering. I already made a piece long time ago, having you and Hans running the Ruggira.
I think for me both ways made sense.
Having competition is the competition side, but as you mentioned, spending a lot of time, money, effort for other teams,
who maybe even are not gonna deliver in the
in the future yeah it makes perfect sense uh thank you so much for your hard work uh thank
you for hans although he's not here the first liquidation was awesome uh keep up the good work
thank you i do have a question pragmatic monkey um from max power uh his question is
pragmatic monkey um from max power uh his question is last time i tested depositing usdc on avax
it was hit by quite by some slippage significant slippage yes i can use cctp to do it myself
to usdc ethereum first but this is unacceptable ux in my opinion any solution coming for that situation
especially for stables so yeah I mean right now if you are doing a big deposits the way
the onboarding process because we use the ethereum version of USDC as the base the main version of
USDC on the on the root USDC on Rougira.
And that's because it's a pool with the deepest liquidity
that was stable on Torchain.
So whenever you deposit from another chain, from AVAX,
you will do a base layer swap under the roots
from USDC on AVAX to USDC on Ethereum.
And if your deposit is large compared
to the size of the liquidity pool on the Torchain-based layer,
there can be a bit of slippage.
And CCTP is clearly a better, more powerful solution.
But CCTP, it has a big cause to integrate.
And it's complicated, and especially on Torchchain, which is not an EVM chain.
But there are alternatives to that.
So I cannot go into too much detail,
because we have signed the NDA with the party where we
circle, effectively, recently.
But we are looking at options options there uh to do something
similar you will still have uh to do a swap from this uh let's assume we have a native version of
usdc on tor chain we will still use the ethereum version of usdc as the main one because again
that's where most of the liquidity in the base layer pool and the chain is.
So if you want, for example, loans, you should borrow this version because then when your loans get liquidated, your collateral is sold into the, like your BTC are being sold into a pool pair with USDC, which are still like 3 million or something into it.
And you can absorb much bigger weak via the virtualization strategy
that you would if you use a native version that has no deep liquidity.
But we could reduce the cost bigly by having a very deep,
concentrated pool of native torqued USDC equivalent to ETH USDC.
And then you could use CCTP,
or there's another protocol from Ziracle Code Gateway,
doesn't really matter, but you could use what?
Let's say CCTP to move from any chain which has CCTP to TorChain,
and then do a swap for ETH, all of that package in one transaction,
for the ETH version of USDC.
And your slippage would be much lower,
especially if we have concentrated pools,
concentrated stable to stable.
We can make it very efficient.
Of course, it will always be a function of the same,
your deposit versus the total liquidity in the pool.
But if you compare that to Torchain BayZilla pool,
which use XYK,
using XYK that price from zero to infinity for stablecoin,
it's obviously giving you a terrible, bad price
because almost the liquidity should be around one.
Especially if you are trading USDC for USDC,
your risk is the same.
There's absolutely no reason to use X-point gate pool to price.
And that's typically where it makes much more sense
to have this liquidity pool moving progressively to the app layer.
Excellent.
Okay, perfect.
We are coming at the two-hour mark.
I am not seeing any more questions.
Kenton, I am wondering if this is a good time to wrap.
What do you say?
I think so.
Yeah.
We'll wrap up.
Trying to make a pun with unwrapping a Christmas gift.
We're going to wrap up this gift.
There you go, man.
There you go.
You know, upon reflection, guys, this is the last space.
Oh, hang on. max might have another question
uh okay i'm gonna i'm gonna let that one go brother um you know upon reflection 2025 this
is the last space you guys very interesting year for sure um you know it started largely with
well i think it's just before that right i can't remember when kujiro had its issue but you know it started largely with well i think it's just before that right i can't remember when
kujiro had its issue but you know early in 2025 or roundabouts that's when we all kind of got
thrown together right um and i'm sure on the rogera side during that time there's a lot of
fear a lot of ambiguity a lot of concern you know thor chain came in helped you guys um got you back standing and then shortly
after that um thor chain itself got royally kicked in the nuts with the thorfy implosion
and then you add by bit on there it's like we got kicked in the nuts someone then peed in our mouth
and then set our body on fire it was just an unbelievably terrible time, but we recovered. And I think, you know,
upon reflection, the most amazing thing when I think about it is a lot of the reasons why
both ecosystems had their blowups, had their failures is because we didn't have each other.
Right. Back in the day, I remember when Thor fi was going on, I understood Thor fi,
understood how it works, but I couldn't model it in my brain. I couldn't understand. I couldn't project it. I didn't understand the
burn mint mechanism. Too complicated, too many variables. This I understand. I understand the
app layer. I understand the vision now for the first time. I am so unbelievably excited for 2026 and beyond. This makes complete and utter sense.
This is a great thing, you guys.
And so I am just so privileged and happy to be doing this with you guys.
I really feel like out of the entire blockchain space,
it's crazy for me to say, I hope I'm not being narcissistic here
or solipsistic or an over infatuation with my own self or this ecosystem but
i really think we're onto something i think we're going to change the world i really believe that
and most people aren't going to see it coming but we are coming so i want to thank you all so very
much i have made so many friends this year it has been an absolute pleasure getting to know so many
of you and i sincerely hope that we can all get together
at a conference soon because I don't think I've met a single Ruggieran in person yet. And that's
a shame. And I got to meet Kenton soon too. I mean, that's ridiculous. I haven't met him yet.
So I hope we can plan something guys. It's been great. I'm having so much fun. I love every single
one of you. Let's kick some ass next, next year. Let's get it done. I believe firmly we are going to do that.
So rah, rah, heck yeah.
All right, guys.
Next space is going to be January 10th.
We're going to have Edge Wallet with Paul.
January 17th, we're going to redo our Thor Wallet space
because we didn't really give them a fair shot
because it turned into a broader debate about marketing and the front end and stuff like that. So we're going to redo our Thor wallet space because we didn't really give them a fair shot because it turned into a broader debate about marketing and the front end and stuff like that. So we're going
to redo that. And then January 24th, we're going to have Let's Exchange on with Nadine.
Excuse me. Very excited about that. And then of course, we will definitely have to revisit
Ruggira soon because you guys are building so quick. So yeah, man, super excited.
Before we close, Kenton, Pragmatic Money, any final words?
Okay, I'll go first.
First, guys, Kenton and you, Patriot, just big shootouts.
Honestly, you have been incredible this year.
You keep showing up doing those spaces every week.
It has been amazing.
I think it put us in a...
It helped a lot build a bridge between our two communities
and clear up a lot of points.
So I think it's amazing public service work.
And thanks a lot for doing that.
And yeah, oh, on the...
I need to say it one more time because people asked for it.
So about Emily's in Paris and all that with my French accents.
People like when I say stacking or staking.
I'm still not sure how I should pronounce that.
But here you go.
Stacking, stake your Rougie, stack your Rougie, stack, stick, stack,
stake, something like that.
So that's for the French accent lover.
And yeah, that's putting go.
It has been an incredible year.
And the best is yet to come, really.
I was telling about all the stuff I'm excited about for next year.
I was telling you about all the stuff I'm excited about for next year.
I think 2026 is really the year where we are going to finally,
by the end of the year, have all the core pieces together,
and we can really start to scale and have fun.
So this is all just the beginning,
and tremendously exciting what's to come.
I'm never going to give you issues for your accent because uh you know well first engine
engine i had the same problem i used to talk with french people uh language exchange partners
you know you engine is what you say instead of engine you know that's it's okay and you know
my french you know i'm never going to give you a i'm never going to give you a problem, buddy. Okay.
This was actually very good.
I think both terms work. Stack, Rougie, and stake Rougie, right?
You want to do both, right?
So killing two birds with one stone.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, they have different meanings. Yeah. Let's say it both exists. Killing two birds with one stone. Oh, OK.
They have different meanings.
But they both exist.
Yes.
Thank you, guys.
Thanks.
It's been quite the year.
And maybe just remind everybody how our brains,
all of our brains work.
Recency bias is a real thing.
We think that the future is going
to be like the past um but you know if you stop to think about it you know that isn't true right
we don't drive in the rear view mirror you know you look out the windshield and you look forward
and um you know the rear view mirror on uh thor chain and this year has been pretty bad like you mentioned uh patriot um but if you look through
the windshield and you look forward uh i think it's pretty awesome so you know we have lots to
look for next year i'm really looking forward to starting a new year fresh you know we should have
much more positive catalysts you know things you things to move us, move door chain forward versus set us back. And like, you know,
this year has been a lot of like, basically kind of like a giant reset,
rebuild, incorporating Rijira and the Riji team. You know,
it's a lot of pieces are coming together.
And I think next year we'll start seeing the final piece of the,
of the puzzle. We'll start seeing what it looks what
that puzzle really looks like so um yeah don't give in the recency bias guys don't think the past
is going to be what the future is right so plus is going to change for for next year
so looking forward to being a part of that with you all
that's a perfect way to end the space here here we are the rearview mirror is not what matters
we're looking forward onwards my friends well said kenton thank you so much buddy thank you
everybody i hope you all have a wonderful time this year merry christmas or happy holidays with
your friend and have a happy new year spend time with time with your friends and family. Love you all. God bless. Bye now. Thank you. Thank you.
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