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WHERE IN #BTC & #CRYPTO ADOPTION CYCLE ARE WE? WHY WEB3 GAMING BAD?!
Recorded: March 26, 2025 Duration: 2:01:31Space Recording
Short Summary
The transcript discusses various aspects of the crypto industry, highlighting trends such as the early stages of crypto adoption, the growing interest of institutions and governments in Bitcoin, and the increasing role of stablecoins. It also touches on the challenges and potential growth in Web3 gaming and the broader DeFi sector, indicating a dynamic and evolving market landscape.
Full Transcription
Bhopi,
Bhopi,
Bhopi,
All right.
We're going to have some guys join in about 15 minutes.
I think there's some other spaces going on.
We got Ryan up here, though, so we can start.
Welcome, everyone.
I'm going to be a quick one today.
I don't think I'm going to be on here for more than an hour, hour, and 30 minutes.
But this conversation came up yesterday.
Okay.
And I joined a lot of spaces throughout the day where people talk about this topic, other topics, and the question posed was, where in the adoption cycle we are?
And I think you can look at things like the number of people that hold Bitcoin and how many people actually use blockchain tech on a day-to-day basis.
You can make the argument that when it comes to the tech...
And when it comes to general crypto adoption, that we're still early.
When it comes to Bitcoin, I don't share the same sentiment, right?
I've been hearing that we're early for the last seven years.
And at a certain point, I wonder, you know, how, one, what does early mean?
And I think when people use the word early, they're using it in the context of the financial
financially or rather the upside in respect to the upside we're so early right so i was on a space
on wolf web three space yesterday where you know one guy said we're still early and and if you
think about i think dave weissberger was also on that space and he was basically saying you know if
you think about a bitcoin for example going to one million or coin or like 10 million a coin what
it's kind of out to me kind of outrageous numbers being thrown out but
I guess I can see why they think we're still early.
I don't know.
I don't feel like we are, I don't feel like I don't feel like I'm early to Bitcoin at this point.
Right.
In 2007, September 2017 was when I made my first purchase on Coinbase.
And I felt like.
I felt like I was kind of late at that time, but in Einstein, I was pretty early.
So I suppose it's all relative.
It just feels like the, you know, each cycle, Bitcoin's top is, you kind of get hits with like a half-life, right?
Right.
the amount that Bitcoin appreciates.
And it does seem like, you know, now that folks are saying, okay, well, we're early because the institutions are just coming in.
To me, once institutions are here, which they seem to be arriving, if not they already are, right?
You have countries buying Bitcoin and you have companies buying Bitcoin and GameStop just –
paved the way for their treasury to start allocating Bitcoin.
And you got to think to yourself, am I still early?
I don't know.
I don't feel like I am.
No, you couldn't have been late because I felt late.
I thought I came in really late.
Didn't you come in like 2013 or something or 2011?
I came in in 2012 and it seemed like everybody already knew about Bitcoin by the time I came in.
I was like how did I how am I just now hearing about this?
Why does everyone already like have the core node already built?
Why is everyone already like you know contributing to the GitHub and I'm just not hearing about this?
So I definitely felt late.
I mean, I felt like that hearing about it for the first time in 2017, right?
I don't understand how I missed it.
So what do you think, Ryan, right?
When you look at Bitcoin's adoption and you look at everything that's happening in the news and with governments and with companies buying and allocating Bitcoin, do you feel like if someone is just getting, is early and late relative or is there an objective way to look at this?
You know, I think it's a comfort mindset.
I think a lot of, and I think it's generational.
So I think the current generation of junior hires and high schoolers are way more comfortable
with peer-to-peer payments and cryptocurrency than with the current baby boomers or even
Gen Z or Gen X for that matter.
I really think.
that it's just a matter of comfort level.
So, you know, to say that we're close to adoption, I think it's
It's a little naive to how things get adopted in the first place.
And when there's still like the random person, you know, that's, you know, 40 or 50 and says,
I don't want to touch that cryptocurrency stuff because I just don't understand it, but I'm going to stay in real estate.
Because that's an investment I understand.
Whereas you talk to a normal, like an average high schooler, they're like, they're not even thinking about owning their own house.
They're not even thinking about buying real estate.
But...
they're investing in Shiba, you know, and dogecorn.
Right. I can see how you can make the generational distinction.
I'm trying to, I'm trying to, um,
What am I going to say?
I'm trying to think of it from a broader perspective, right?
When someone asks me or asks one of us, hey, am I still early or am I still late to Bitcoin,
I was going back and forth.
I don't think it's still early.
I think that that ship has sailed, right?
I think maybe we are approaching the midgame or somewhere between early in the midgame.
I guess.
Again, when you have institutional, and I wonder how much of this news and hype about institutional buyers and governments and all this stuff is baked into the price.
It's a question that I suppose no one can really answer with 100% accuracy.
I just, I have a hard time believing, I mean, even with crypto, I'm.
Crypto as a whole, actually, I think with crypto as a whole, I can make a stronger argument about why we're still early.
If you just look at the number of problems outside of stable coins that are actually solved by this stuff, it's still, we have still yet to see the true power and potential of Bitcoin's pair, or rather crypto's paradigm shift.
Talka, what do you thoughts?
Oh, man.
Ryan was taking me back.
So, like,
Feeling late in 2012 and 2013 was like I would watch an ad and get Bitcoin.
And I felt like it was like, oh, they're just like throwing out scraps.
And that's how like late I am to it.
So, but like I was running a mining operation.
You know, I was running a sports book paying out Bitcoin to people that were willing to give me cash.
Yeah.
So, you know, the biggest thing that has been shown for anyone and everyone is
The solid play is time and market, not, you know, wait, you know, yes, we can go to the casino and we can go spend $1,000 on a thousand different things.
And we get that endorphin rush, that dopamine hit when that $1, you know, hit turns into $15 or $100.
But like, we still lost $900 other dollars, you know.
and or $999 other dollars. So it's an interesting play. I still do it. I love it, you know,
but I, I really focus on LP providing. So I just, I think talking about being late means
we're still early. That's an interesting take. By the way, guys, if you like what you hear,
please retweet the space. I, you know, I think about it in terms of,
I guess it's relative, right?
Because you guys were saying you got in in 2011, 2011, 2013, whenever.
And it felt like you were late, Ryan, you didn't have your node set up and Taco, you have your reasons as well.
And, you know, I felt like I was late in late 2017.
And in hindsight, I wasn't.
So, you know, someone might be looking back.
at this year, 20 years from now and say, oh my God, I could have, you know, I could have bought 50 million Satoci's.
And now one Satochi, or I guess 50 million Stoshes costs like an arm and a leg.
So yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
I think I was pretty convicted yesterday when I was saying.
I don't think we're early.
But now I'm starting to rethink my own thesis.
Gary, what's going on, brother?
Yeah, GM GM. So like my biggest question is when did you get into the internet?
Because we wouldn't go to a newborn today and say, you can't get on the internet.
You're too late, right? We got in early to the internet. We got all the good dot coms.
We got all the good opportunities. You're too late because you're just born in 2025.
So you can't get on the internet now. And what you're a lot of people talk about in this adoption of being early is the investment vehicle.
And I think we're going to have opportunities over time that will go and come, just like we've had companies on the internet and off the internet over time that have come up and they've become very valuable.
And sometimes they don't keep their value for very long.
And I think we'll see that happen.
But usage, I think, is growing.
Stable coins is going to be the biggest pivot there, the biggest catalyst there.
As we get more adoption in stable coins, as we start using stable coins more, as they
start to replace paper money more, they replace credit cards more.
We're going to have this opportunity now to build a bigger economy on chain where not everyone's
going to go to the casino and gamble, some will.
It'll be easier for them because they already have the currencies in their wallets.
Not everyone's going to put on an NFTPFP, but some will, and it'll be easier for them because they'll have the currency in their wallets.
But almost everyone will start using crypto just the same way as back in the 90s.
Almost everyone back then didn't want to cards.
They made fun of people that went to Burger King and swipes their credit card to get a burger.
Now most of us couldn't imagine buying things with cash.
We either use Apple Pay or our credit cards or something like that.
So yes, we're going to get into further adoption.
Yes, you're still early.
You're going to be early for, like, I think you're still early on the internet if you're getting here right now.
You know, this is a journey.
It's a phase of the internet.
It's a phase of what's happening in the world where we're all connected.
So I think we're all early.
I think there's plenty of opportunities for everybody.
I don't think that everything that's been up in the past will come back up.
I think some things just die.
Yeah.
We need to realize that and we need to realize that sometimes the narrative just shifts.
You know, we used to have these big shopping malls and these big box, you know, these like literally huge shopping malls and now they're going away because we shop more online because it's more convenient and it's better selection and all these things.
You know, Amazon's doing huge numbers.
TikTok shops doing huge numbers.
So as we evolve as humans, society and the companies and things like that have to evolve around us.
So I think the blockchains will do the same.
I totally agree with respect to blockchain.
And I do think that the real power of this tech is yet to be seen.
The cash comment is funny to me.
You know, spending cash used to be a very normal thing.
And now when I see someone spending cash, I'm like, what comes?
How many criminal enterprises are you running in the background behind the curtains?
So when it comes to Bitcoin, I think people are always looking at it from a, I guess people on the outside or when they ask, is it latest early, they're looking at it from a financial perspective.
So that's kind of, that's the angle I'm approaching it with.
when I talk about what part of the adoption cycle are we in?
Because most people are trying to, I don't know, make a quick book.
They see these stories online or even at this point, they hear friends that have done relatively well on Bitcoin.
And they're wondering, oh, is it too late?
And it...
The adoption cycle we're in there is governments are starting to acquire.
Right? Companies are going into debt to buy more. More and more companies are allocating
percentages of their treasury to the asset. And that's the phase we're in. So you're still
really early because most of the countries don't have Bitcoin reserves. And I think they will.
Interesting. Ryan, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, I think that's a great point where it's like, you know, are you earlier late at using money?
It doesn't quite work like that.
It's just different attestations or different layers of financial tools.
I think from, you know, comparing ecosystems here of fiat versus cryptocurrency.
we are still incredibly early when you just consider the amount of layers we have on top of cash right like as you said like no one really uses cash anymore and if they do use cash it's like you're like well you know what law are you breaking um you know i think we're going to get to that point with cryptocurrency too where it's like no one really directly transacts cryptocurrency anymore and if you try to directly transact cryptocurrency people are going to be like well what law are you trying to break
You know, I think I said at a conference in like 2018, I remember Marshall Long on stage asked me to like paint a picture of what I thought like 50 years in the road for cryptocurrency was going to look like.
And I really thought it was going to end up just being, you know, banks settling against each other and nation states settling against each other using it.
And then internally peer to peer, it's just going to be so many different layers of, you know, credit and, you know, P-to-P payment systems and companies getting, you know, their fingers in the piggy bank.
It's, I just think that we're so early because we just don't have all the different obfuscation layers in yet.
Yeah, with that approaching it from or rather looking at it through that lens, I would agree.
I don't see hands up.
I'm going to call on people because I want to hear from Travis.
Travis always has a sobering take on these things.
And I think I know how he feels about the broader crypto market versus Bitcoin itself.
Travis, you there?
Yeah, I'm here.
Yeah, as always, I do think of Bitcoin totally separate from the rest of crypto.
Bitcoin has product market fit.
Stable coins have product market fit.
And everything else is somewhere between the solution looking for a problem and outright
vaporware grift and everything in between.
It makes a lot of sense to me that the path of Bitcoin from like 100 to 100,000 was a lot less likely than the path of Bitcoin from 100,000 to a million.
And I understand there's like magnitude of return differences.
But like just, I just mean that, you know, sort of like, I mean that more qualitatively than quantitatively.
That just like the set of circumstances that had to have occurred to have this crazy Bitcoin thing go from...
the white paper to finding its first use case to buy drugs on the internet through Mount Gocks,
you know, through all these other things to get to a two trillion dollar asset where the U.S. government is like,
now stockpiling it with the seized Bitcoin that they've already gotten and potentially trying
to figure out ways to buy more in revenue-neutral manners.
Like that, all of that feels qualitatively way less likely than when I imagine like,
what's it take for Bitcoin to go from here to a million bucks?
Stablecoins found great product market fit in terms of trying to help the world be a better place and trying to help the least of these in terms of the less fortunate on planet Earth.
Stable coins have done more than even Bitcoin.
When you go into places that are experiencing...
you know, financial instability, hyperinflation, lack of access to basic financial services.
And you ask them if they'd rather have a digital dollar on a blockchain or a Bitcoin,
they would rather have a digital dollar.
I think I'll expect that to continue to proliferate.
And that's a good thing.
That's a good thing for the people that need it.
They don't have access to financial stability.
That's a good thing for US dollar hegemony.
The dollar is the world reserve currency.
If you're pro-America, then stable coin proliferation is a good thing for a pro-America
stance.
And then it's like everything else stuff is just still in heavy experimentation mode.
trying to characterize it as being early.
I think I heard somebody earlier say that you're still early to the internet currently,
which is like, I think that's probably a bit of a tough characterization.
I'm not sure how that math maths with, you know, like 90% internet penetration in developed countries.
I guess maybe you make the argument that there's like a bunch of less developed countries that don't have internet access.
So maybe you're still early.
I don't know.
The sort of like comparisons, the corollaries of the alt landscape to early days internet, it does not make a lot of sense to me.
I just think with where we are in 2025, with all of this stuff being in aggregate worth.
call it like $1.2 trillion, the alt market cash worth $1.2 trillion with a T dollars, and then sort of look at what we have to show for ourselves in terms of all use cases that have significant traction and token structures that make a lot of sense.
and trying to like sort of connect the valuation of the alts to the actual use cases and traction
in the real world and then trying to tie that back to like some point of like the internet
in the 90s or something like that makes no sense to me.
It's a fair take.
I oftentimes compare or rather I oftentimes highlight alts.
on our spaces and other people's spaces that is extractive vaporware
geising or larping under the guise of utility so
One thing I want to put on that, like, where I think Travis misheard, and I'm taking words out of Gary's mouth here because Gary's the one that said this, but like it's not that they're late to the Internet.
It's just because they didn't get into it in, you know, the 80s and 90s, they can't get into it now.
And they're not, and it doesn't like, they're like, oh, well, you're getting into it now.
So you can only use this part of the Internet.
You know, you didn't go through the AOL discourse, so you can't use anything, you know, from Google, like that type of thing is what I think he was trying to get at, you know?
Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying is, you know, if we look at right in the past, whenever maybe some of us got in the internet, whenever it was early and it was young and we got opportunities to get dot coms and stuff like that, like super early.
we wouldn't go to a kid today and say, hey, you're too late.
The internet's already too far advanced.
You're too late.
You can't get on.
And that's the same thing I see the blockchain.
Yeah.
Whatever all are popular and Bitcoin, it's going to be popular for indefinitely in the future.
So whether it's Solana or Eith or something new comes along and it takes over, that's fine.
But we're going to have Bitcoin plus a series of alts that are around that are always going to be there.
You're never going to be too late.
You're always going to be at the right time.
I see what you're saying.
I think we're getting wires crossed a little bit.
There's two debates here.
One, is it too late to use the tech and benefit from the tech?
And the other one, which is one that I'm approaching it from, a lens that I'm trying to look through it from, is it too late to make?
substantial financial gains from because that because whether you like it or not that's
what most people are asking about am i might am i too late to bitcoin and then when i when i'm
talking about are we too late to are we early we're early to crypto we're early to blockchain
tech um that that i'm that i'm confident about and that's from a perspective of whether this
stuff actually solves problems so there's no doubt that regardless of what bitcoin's prices
is going to have utility you know
10, 50 years from now.
I just,
it's more of a conversation about whether...
whether the average investor buying into Bitcoin is where in the adoption cycle are,
where in the adoption cycle they are, and how much potential does Bitcoin have to go higher?
I was, you've said it, though, you think it's going to have utility for the next 50 years.
Well, in order for it to have utility for the next 50 years, people have to collect it for the next 50 years.
So if we're at stage, whatever we are, and you think it's going to go at least 50 years in the future, well, we're still super early to Bitcoin because there's people that aren't born yet that will need to collect it if you think it still has utility in 50 years.
I see what you mean. And I agree with that point. I was, Travis, it's interesting you say it was it was harder to get from 100 to 100K.
And then a hundred K to a million.
I was on a, I was on Peter Schiff's space and kind of going back and forth with him.
And I highlighted the fact that he was dead wrong about Bitcoin never go into 100K and how he should be more careful about tweeting this stuff because a lot of people follow him and respect him and look up to him.
And he's putting out incorrect information.
He said he might have been wrong about that.
But he won't be wrong about Bitcoin never going to a million.
It's just not going to happen.
So, oh, no.
What do you?
I mean, he's just like a fucking head, right?
Like he's like pays his bills by getting eyeballs.
And so I think just a lot of the stuff that he.
does is in service to that in goal so it's just yeah he's not a guy that you know i think you can
take super serious on um a lot of investment related things so he's he's still one of those guys
that gets paid uh you know via wells bargo caravan and like physical gold is deposited
you know, at his house and then he goes and transacts chips off pieces and, you know, goes to his
local Mickey D's and pays in Gold Bar. So, um, it like, you know, he just said it, it's eyes and
contention. Um,
you know so as long as we're talking about gold that's been trading so well i do think sort of like
one very nice long-term tailwind is just the great wealth transfer um the movement of capital
from boomers and gen z or sorry boomers in gen x to millennials and gen z and then gen alpha
and there's been estimates about the size of it i think i've seen
I can't remember 35 trillion thrown around.
You know, it's some totally ridiculous number.
And I think it's just pretty clear that it's like as every year passes, you can look at the demographics of boomers in the United States.
And...
you can gain, start to glean insight into sort of the money movements that happen on the back of
those wealth transfers.
And it's going to be very interesting to see what happens.
And there's multiple sides, like aspects sort of to this trade.
You know, there's a big real estate sort of like question mark component to this.
But I do think it seems quite clear that Bitcoin and I think to some extent crypto is going
to be a very meaningful destination for the wealth transfer when it lands in the hands of
millennials in Gen Z from their parents.
And it's just a huge number.
I could think they'll go ahead. Go ahead, brother.
Do you think they're going to convert their assets into digital assets, so there's no capital gain at death tax?
I mean, I think that the first thing you would look at is just how big of a, I'm like, I'm not a real estate investor.
I mean, I have...
I don't know, I've bought homes before, but I don't consider it really like an asset class.
And I really don't, and I know it's very regional, right?
And it's like if you're in the right spot at the right time, you can do really, really
well and you're in the wrong spot at the wrong time.
It doesn't matter what you buy.
You're going to be on the wrong end of the stick, like that sort of thing.
But I just like all of the like big older houses that well-to-do boomers.
own and like hold their wealth in and such a big portion of their wealth in and they're in like
I don't know places that I don't know millennials and Gen Z like don't really want to live or
whatever it's just like what happens to all of that and you start you can there is insight into that
and I think what happens is that the millennial just like immediately sells the like this big
old house and for like a meaningfully under market
rate at the time because they like would much rather have the liquidity and whether or not that
goes into you know buying like the house where they want to live or like buying the condo in
the high population density area or whether that goes into tech stocks or whether that goes into
crypto or whether that goes into you know honestly sports gambling you know i think that the next
leg of it there's a question mark around but there's going to be this like whole movement
out of, and you can pull, I don't have the statistics in front of me, but these statistics are
available on Fred, where I think you can look at like wealth, like a by generation, you can look at
the sort of like disparity of the different buckets of wealth.
So like in the baby boom regeneration, what percent of wealth is held in house?
What percent of wealth is held in stocks?
What percent of wealth is?
I think that's available on Fred, on the Fed's website, data website.
And because I know I've seen those charts before, and I think that's where it's from.
And it's just a really big chunk.
And I think it's just going to come out of a lot of these houses.
And I sometimes struggle to understand how you don't get like structurally lower, directionally
lower real estate prices over a significant period of time as a result of that.
I totally agree, Travis. This is a conversation on some different forums, and one of them is a real estate forum on Reddit.
And this conversation comes up quite often where a lot of – one, we're heading into a multipolar world.
So 20 years ago, 30 years ago, other than the U.S. and, you know, Western countries, other countries in the East weren't really –
For the most part, for the average Westerner weren't worth living in.
Now it's completely changed.
There's so many places in Asia that you can go live.
And I think the average millennial, the average Gen Z is going to want mobility.
And so when eventually boomers pass away and maybe Gen X is get a bit older and they want to downsize,
I do, or a lot of folks do think there's going to be an influx.
of supply on the market and it's going to cost a housing crash because honestly I don't know
where you guys live but where I live the housing prices have gotten insane right you pay you pay
$1.1 million for a
on a half acre of land and that's that's supposedly a good deal so um yeah i do think a lot of
i think i do think a lot of gen zes and gen alphas are going to want mobility they're going
to want to travel around they're going to rent and want to store their wealth and some other asset
That's a paradigm shift that I would be surprised to not see happen.
Another thing I'm curious about, and I do want to hear from Ryan Berkman's and as well as Andrew Saunders,
but another thing I'm curious about is when that wealth transfer happens,
Will there be another wealth transfer from all the Gen Zs and Gen Alphas that want to go straight into the crypto casino?
And how much of that wealth is going to transfer upwards?
How much of a wealth gap are we going to end up with one to two generations in the future?
Just because of the velocity of gambling, I guess how quickly money comes and goes in crypto versus the average casino.
I don't know if anyone has any takes on that.
But I do want to hear from Ryan Berkman's on just the –
the conversation at whole.
Yeah, no, good to chat.
I think that it's interesting to hear folks talk about whether it's earlier late,
because on the one hand, Bitcoin already being at about 1.7 trillion today,
you know, it's not very early anymore, but on the other hand,
when you look at how on-chain technologies and on-chain economy is going to, you know, rewrite the whole global economy in the coming decades, it's very, very early.
You know, most of what will power the global economy does not exist and it will be based on-chain.
You know, by the same token, the momentum around Bitcoin means that even if it may not be early, pretty much everybody on this call is going to have significant unrealized gains at some point.
You know, whether you round trip that or not, it's going to be up to you.
There's some luck involved.
So, yeah, I think.
I think the momentum right now is absolutely undeniable.
I see Bitcoin is having certain advantages and then the other more utility-focused platforms,
you know, especially Ethereum and Solana, having advantages as well.
So very, very interesting season.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Guys, please reach with the space.
It's going to be a short one.
So I want folks to be able to go back and listen to the recording.
Andrew Saunders, what's going on, man?
See there?
Sometimes he's on calls and he just joins to make it look nice on stage.
No, I'm here.
I'm dealing with Coinbase, but actually they're amazing.
Yeah.
What's up, buddy?
What's up, man?
So we've been talking about the, we're in the Bitcoin and crypto adoption cycle we're in.
And I think that you can have different conversations, one for Bitcoin, one for crypto.
And then we've been talking about just other things across the board, the wealth transfer from the boomers, the great generation.
And then eventually Gen X's to the millennials, Gen Zs and Gen Alphas and kind of the...
Yeah.
The results of that and all that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can talk through a couple things.
More maybe based on what I've seen in history.
Like, you know, just to go back, I was like very early in digital, social, AAR, V, or machine learning, autonomous vehicles, like all industries I've worked in.
I think the question is it's about when you say are we early, I think it depends on kind of what the context is, right?
Are we early in terms of where this technology is going and what this technology is capable of 100%.
And I forget who brought it up, but I agree.
I think stable coins to date has been.
one of the things that I've been most proud of in the crypto industry because, you know, case and point in these countries with hyperinflation, I mean, you know, folks are literally unable to make ends meet. And it's interesting when you go to parts of,
you know, Latin America to see just how widespread like, you know, crypto payment has become even compared to, you know, some of these first world countries.
And that's obviously, as someone pointed out, making a huge difference in people's lives.
I think if you're talking about are we early from like a token standpoint or speculation standpoint.
I mean, that's the big question.
I think obviously we're getting hopefully some regulation clarity now, which is good.
you know, for me when I first entered crypto,
or like one of the things that I was so passionate about,
still am, was...
I've been a Web 2 angel investor, a VC, and to be an accredited investor, at least in the U.S.,
I mean, you have to have a certain amount of net worth and capital, which effectively doesn't
enable most of the 99% to participate in that type of activity, right?
And if you look at the typical gains you can make in a venture investment versus
you know, on traditional markets, I mean, it's not uncommon to see 30% returns or
you know, just things that will outperform that.
So I think the access that it's provided is very interesting.
And even for me, like the way I always had looked at tokens is I never really looked at them as stock in a sense.
I looked at them as, you know, access to angel investing.
You know, so basically earlier.
I think, you know, obviously there's too many tokens. There's too many projects. I still, you know, as someone that's been full time in the industry for three years, like I still hope to see, you know, better caliber builders entering or more experienced builders and not even developers, but business builders. You know, I just, I see a lot of folks that are still coming in, you know, attracted obviously by the liquidity of the industry, you know, building for the short term, here for value extraction, you know, and I think again, like,
When we look at some of the projects that are standing today, you know, if you look at
things like Chainlink or Ave or Scale, you know, these are projects that have now been around for a number of years that are still here, right?
You know, I'd like to see a new class of folks, you know, that's entered in the past, you know, one or two years still be here in six or seven years.
So I do still think it's early from a tech standpoint.
From a token standpoint, I mean, someone hit the nail on the head.
I mean, Bitcoin, look at the market cap.
Do I think it's still, you know, early?
Do I think there's still obviously growth potential?
Absolutely.
But, you know, you're not getting in like some of these folks that got in.
I have a friend that got in a, you know,
$100, you know, like $100 level.
I mean, that's never going to happen again, obviously.
So anyway, so hopefully that's helpful.
Yeah, right. And I think that's the main conversation I've been having around Bitcoin is not whether or not, you know, not whether it's going to be useful 20, 30 years from now.
But more, more in regard to the financial upside. And I think that, you know, institutions are are buying and governments are accrue.
Yeah.
are accumulating, excuse me.
And not all of them, but I would have a heart to say so from a for a hundred to a hundred
100,000, that's 1,000 X, if I'm not mistaken.
So I think I have a little bit of a hard time seeing Bitcoin do another thousand X from here.
And so, hey, look, I would love to be wrong.
I, I, you know, jumping for joy if I was wrong.
But I mean, one, you know, one other thing, no, I'd call out, like, you know, I look at, so, you know, even when I talk about this notion of,
you know, you're getting access to venture investing in a way that, you know,
traditionally most folks couldn't access to it.
You know, one of the challenges, obviously, in this industry and everybody knows this is,
you know, the insiders.
It's like the folks that come in earlier than, you know, general market participants and things like that.
And you have to, and we've talked about this before, like this is the whole low float high FDB issue.
This is also why I think we had a meme coin run is basically, you know, you look a lot of these tokens and, you know, 80, 90% are locked with early insiders that no matter how quickly you bought that token or got that airdrop, they're always going to be ahead of you.
right? And you're always going to have that negative pressure coming down on you.
I do get excited when I see things like Echo and Legion.
I think Legion's one I don't hear as much about, you know, where they're actually letting you
into rounds. And even yesterday I saw that announcement from Hack VC, who's, you know, a pretty
well-known VC in the industry, you know, where it looks like they're going to effectively,
I haven't dug into it, you know, let the public effectively be in their rounds through
echo, which is interesting. So I think like that's more kind of what I'm looking at is,
Can everybody have a fair level playing field, you know, going back to some of the early days of crypto?
Yeah.
I, let's see.
I think Jesus had his hand up.
Hey, Sus, welcome.
We haven't heard from you yet.
And I'll swing back over to Taco.
Ogo, welcome.
Nice to be here.
So my hot take here is if one U.S. equity player, aka micro strategy, owns more Bitcoin than all governments
combined.
Well,
Well, the stock market has, I mean, most people want maybe 80% or higher stake on each stock.
Then how in the world are we not early?
We're so early as how.
I mean, if we think the next like five, 10 years, Bitcoin's going to topple out.
There's no shot, no shot.
Everybody's trending toward digital gold.
Everybody's trending toward Mr. Bitcoin because of the fact, it's very simple fact here, that I think every other, um,
you know, form of monetary currencies kind of screwed.
So they're coming over here in trying to base their currencies, just like they did back in the
1970s before Nixon quote unquote screwed it all up, but in all reality, he kind of needed
to do that.
I'm thinking we get the same exact thing where they're trying to base their currencies here.
Trump's got too much, just way too much to go ahead and let this fail.
He's the crypto president.
He's going to pump it up.
Now, alt coins.
There are different sectors with differing point of views on quote unquote how early we are.
AI agents, are we early?
Maybe, but also, like, this could just be the end of it all.
A lot of these guys are probably running their own accounts.
AI agents, probably not early.
Defy, are we early?
Yeah, we're really early right now.
It seems like a lot of institutions are starting to accumulate Ethereum.
Hmm.
And Ethereum, for whatever reason, is a defy play.
And even though the price is not doing too well, they keep buying it.
And institutions, I don't think, are that stupid.
So they know something we probably don't.
And so my thinking here is that this U.S. equity player at some point or another is going to have to go ahead and materialize his gains. And if he doesn't materialize his gains, governments around the world are going to want to assume control of Bitcoin. And so they're going to have to get more Bitcoin. How are they going to get more Bitcoin? Well, are they going to work with these equity partners?
Are they going to do some back-end deals where they're going to be able to accumulate a heck of a lot of Bitcoin through other players, maybe mining companies?
Question mark? I don't know, but all I know is that there's no shot that the US government wants to own less Bitcoin than China.
And I also know that there's no shot that micro strategy is going to stay on top forever.
So yeah, I think I'll very early.
The micro strategy take is interesting.
I think they own like 2.4% now.
And I would make the argument that the micro strategy play has resulted in a catalyst that led Bitcoin to 108,000.
I don't know if it would have gotten that high that early, but we can debate that topic all day.
So I disagree with you on agents.
I think agents are early and I think agents are in the phase where they do nothing.
And the people that build them add dog shit tokens to them and then slow rug, the people
that buy those tokens.
So I think agents are cool.
I think most agents don't need tokens.
If not, sorry, I don't think any, I don't think agents need tokens.
I think it's kind of ridiculous.
But I think we're early in the agent.
life cycle and they're going to be able to do some really cool things going forward.
But everything else I mostly agree with you on, I think you made some great points.
And, you know, with Ethereum, we can go back and forth all day with Ethereum.
I think Ethereum and some others are going to rise up.
And you start to suck in some of the market share as they begin solving actual problems and as defy matures and hopefully gaming.
I don't understand why gaming is still lagging so far behind everything else.
It's a I can clearly make a use case for why crypto and gaming should collide and why you can have a web through web 2.5 game that
does really well and also benefits from the utility of NFTs and
and fungible tokens as a kind of underlying utility token for that respective game.
But it's also another conversation.
Taco, I want to swing it to you and then we can hear from Michael for the first time.
I'm going to work backwards here.
My thought, yes, it sucks that Web3 gaming or gaming in and of itself has lagged behind.
I think that's one of those...
value extraction things of where game companies, they don't want to lose customers and they don't
want customers. They want to sort of, they're still stuck in that process of if we don't let them leave,
they won't.
And so, like, if you just look at, like, one of the good examples that I always wanted, that always used to use was, like, FIFA.
How many times, like, you buy all of the sports branding and stadiums and players.
And then after that, after that season, you know, you have to go do it all over again.
And so, you can't pass that on, you know, and, you know,
PlayStation and Microsoft have made it technically illegal to sell your account, you know?
And so, like, because they want to lock a player in.
And they don't, and so I think that that's short-sighted, you know, and so we have to figure out a very good,
incentive method. Like that's how we work with protocols. That's how protocols. They exist, though.
I don't know why they're not catching on to this, right? Each of these companies can have their
own proprietary NFT marketplace. They can take fees. This whole games have never been cool with
selling your account, but they're not looking at it the right way. They're they have to understand.
There's a black market where all these transactions are happening and they are missing out on money.
Yeah, I agree with you.
And the biggest piece on that is regulatory clarity, you know,
because, like, the only game that I know that has gotten SEC clearance,
a commodity clearance as well, is our old favorite second life,
where it still has 600,000 monthly active users with the average monthly,
I don't remember if it's the monthly spend or yearly spend.
So I'm going to be bullish here and say monthly spend, but the average monthly spend is $2,000, you know, and people have two separate wallets.
But none of it is blockchain enabled.
You know, they literally have a linden dollar.
You know, and, you know, we saw how much traffic went through when, you know, you could do Linden Dollar on PayPal for a minute, you know, Bitcoin via Linden Dollar and how much extraction sort of happened that way through nefarious parties and stuff like that.
But this is one of those things to where, like, you were 100% right.
Those incentive methods are in play, but the regulatory clearance isn't clarity isn't there yet.
And, um,
I, you know, I just got back from the digital asset summit in New York.
And so I loved hearing Hizu's enthusiasm around Bitcoin because I got to listen to, you know, sit front and center for Michael Saylor's 21 notion thoughts on Bitcoin, which, you know, it's always, it's always great to be in the same room as Michael.
And, you know, then it's sometimes you're like, well, I'm.
What about something else, too?
And he's like, fuck you, you're dumb.
It's Bitcoin and Bitcoin only.
And so, you know, for me, that's always a hard pill to swallow to one be told, like, there's only one way to skin a cat.
And I'm like, ha, I'm a D-Gen.
No, there's not.
But...
The other thing that happened right before Michael Saylor came on stage, and I was given some false flags around this.
I was told that it was going to be an actual conversation and that I was given a list of talking points that Trump might have addressed.
But it ended up just being a recorded, you know,
address from from President Trump, but that sort of hit all the buzzwords.
And if you look at it, you could say it was a generalized nothing burger.
But the fact that we had a sitting president.
actively address a crowd of institutions saying, you know, blockchain and AI are the future of the U.S., you know, clarity, I think, is going to come, you know, faster than, you know, anything else.
especially around like capital gains.
And like if we look at the round table topics that the SEC is going to be having,
the next four tables,
you know,
stuck between a block and a hard space.
Like they're even having fun with the words of this shit.
So like we are in an amazing moment that we've complained about it not happening yet.
It's just getting ready to.
And, you know,
one of the things that,
I think it was Travis, no, it was Andre that was sort of talking about like the different VC structures or the different entry projects.
There's always going to be people that complain about being late because there's 10,000 things building.
And we don't know which one is going to be the next unicorn, which is going to be the next hot piece.
And so that's why we see this huge rotation of capital, like from one thing to the next, rather than anyone sticking around long enough to see if it actually works.
We have...
Not all of them are DGens, but I want to say DGens are pivoting on projects more than founders in startup academies.
You know, and, you know, I think that that's one of those hard pieces that, like, if we see people's, like, capital start to rest as, like, more and more stables start to come into play, like, the fact that Fidelity is launching a stable.
You know, we already, J.P. Morgan's already has like three of them.
Bro, the president's launching a table. It's crazy.
Yes. You is, yeah, you know. And like, I forget his name, but the founder of World Liberty
Fy, it's like Kit or something like that, Kit Folkman or, I got to go to a private chain link
event with like literally I'm sitting on the floor, you know.
seven feet away from Kit and Sergey listening to like how bullish they are and like sort of like hinting at what's coming without talk being able to talk about what's coming because they're all under a microscope because they're trying to do this shit right that is sort of like
The really cool thing.
The Wild West is starting to fade away.
And like...
Not quite.
Not quite.
Not quite.
Not quite.
Like people are trying to still do this shit right.
That's the really cool thing.
Every time I think the Wild West is fading away a new protocol, like Pump Fun, for example,
the cycle pops up that lets you do it easier and better than ever.
Taco, I appreciate the...
I appreciate the points and just working backwards.
I agree.
I love listening to Michael Saylor talk about Bitcoin.
I would be lying if I said, like, I don't know.
I, for the first time ever over the last couple months, I kind of get annoyed sometimes because, I mean, it's kind of just repeating the same stuff because new people are listening.
I just, I don't, I've never been a fan of the Bitcoin maxi, everything else sucks.
I don't know.
mentality and you know he was dead wrong about ethereum getting an etf so i as much as i love
michael and what he's done for bitcoin i think it's important for new people to take what he says
with a grain of salt because he he believe it or not as smart as he can't be wrong um i i think
regulatory clarity and i want to get the hazoos because i saw you know thumbs down and the hand go up
with with him and also michael
when you were talking about gaming.
But I do agree that regulatory clarity is one of the reasons we haven't gotten legitimate utility tokens, right?
Something that that you can hold and earn, for example, a revenue share of the protocol.
Let's say uniswap.
It would be awesome to hold uniswap and earn a percentage of protocol fees the way that you can with AVE.
You can, though, by providing liquidity.
It's not the same thing.
Not the same thing.
You're getting a percentage of the fees that they're making because they're only making fees by people trading on their platform
Right. They're not the ones providing the liquidity. They're getting a big chunk based off of everyone else's work
But that's because they're providing the framework for all of that to work on I totally get that and I read this article I
a couple months back about how the liquidity providers, overall liquidity providers are losing
money because of permanent loss.
And so I would love a way for protocols like Uniswap to allow investors to hold their token
or stake their token and earn protocol fees without having to, what's
Without having to buy Bitcoin and Ethereum and pair them and then worry about IL every time the prices fluctuate against one another.
That's because they're doing, they're like we're stuck in this spot world where everyone's doing this spot trading.
Like I think the function of like where liquidity providing needs to be at is like in a bid ask format.
You know, liquidity style, not a curve, not a spot, but a bid ass because that allows, you know, for.
better fluctuations of back and forth trading,
but then also provides that security of either way outside of a pool.
This is something that, like,
the only reason I'm honored on this is because this is an article thesis I'm actually writing.
So, like, I, like, we see, we're like,
Uniswap is laying, lays the base layer and we see a lot of cool protocols building, rebuilding on top of it.
Like, you know, Trader Joe really set the standard for like bins and tick spaces that we're seeing, you know, and we're seeing...
protocols that do are automatic auto
ranging and stuff like that and um
auto compounding like beefy and hawkfy like those ones are
really starting to take these tools as institutional foundational
layers and making them functional for people because don't touch your
capital piece just just live off fees you know at least that's
how I do it I listen I loved Ben's uh
TJ crushed it with that and a lot of
a lot of protocols are following suit.
I still think
that the whole LP providing
or even pseudo LP
providing is
quite niche. It might change in the future.
And I
I would like to see a future.
I think even the Joe token provides some sort of revenue share through APY.
I would love to see a future where more protocols allow for revenue share or some sort of fee payout based on holding them.
Look at Arbitrum, right?
It's one of the most popular L2s.
And look at the token price.
Even during the bull market, token price absolutely collapsed.
Okay.
And it's because it's a useless token, right?
You can talk, okay, governance all day, but no one really cares about governance.
Look at O.P.
Same thing.
And look at how many chains are using the O.P. stack.
What protocols are messing up here, and I...
I'm not an ETH maxi, but I really believe in ETH, where these tokens are messing up, in my opinion, is they're not pairing to them.
Like if the idea was that everything flowed through like the protocol token, that would show rather than the protocol token standing by itself, that would be the...
you know, the aggregating liquidity layer of support for a token.
But no, we have, you know, exotics paired to exotics.
We have exotics paired to stables.
We have exotics paired to E.
We have exotics paired to wrap Bitcoin.
You know, if they paired and went through these protocol tokens like OPE or ARB, that would be...
make give them actual use you know and you guys should follow
i want to i want to talko is such an l p maxi i are just a yeah l ping maxi i would suggest you follow him
i was on a show a couple couple months back and he talked me through some some some some of the
more granular um uh
LP strategies, but if you just want to learn about basic LPing, I would follow him, watch a show.
And I want to hear from Michael, and then we can swing to Hesu, because I know he has a lot of
thoughts on the gaming, the gaming aspect.
I have a quick.
Go ahead, go ahead.
Quick question for Taco.
Wouldn't that sound like Tara?
Right. If everything flows through the protocol layer, right, the protocol token.
Yeah, but that's when that's when you had USDT where everything, or UST, USDT,
like it all then flowed back to that. And so no, because that literally in its white paper said we print more.
And like it literally said that it was like, we're just going to create more out of nothing.
And I was one of those dumb fucks.
Dual rebasing.
That's a dual rebasing token structure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like the lunatics ate it up.
I'm not going to lie.
Like a lot of my friends did as well because.
The future of Frank is going to be printing you yield.
You might as well allow the yield to go into your wallets versus going to other's wallets.
True.
Right. So that created the Ponziomics.
I'll be honest.
I lost six figures on Luna because I was literally on an airplane with zero Wi-Fi when everything fucking went down.
And I was flying from from Lisbon through London to San Fran.
And so like I, because I was doing all of my LPN across multiple chains using all the different bridges I could.
And then I was funneling it down to one thing.
And I totally, and I was, I was feeling that I would be smarter then.
And that was a, that was.
You're not going to get me.
That was a life-changing moment of like swallow the pill of like, you know.
Me and Greg from Akash, we fucking cry, dude.
Because we, yeah, we collectively both of us lost like seven figs.
Yeah.
We had huge positions in Tara.
And the thing is like,
that opened up a lot of people's eyes right in terms of where's the yield where's the yield
coming from you know and one of the things is that if you don't know the yield is coming from
you are the yield right so like you look at uh you look at defy nowadays and kind of like compared to back
then back then everything is like a thousand percent apr you know you want to have it to where you
go into a stable you know stable coin lp you know us t to us tc back then there was an arp it was
literally 30 percent
And depending on the exchange, of course, if you go to a shitty one, then it's like thousands of percentage.
But once again, you are the yield.
If you don't know the yields coming from.
And you look at this cycle now and you don't see a lot of activity on chain.
You see Eith literally being a stable coin.
You look at Bitcoin and its fluctuations.
You're looking at, you know, why is the market going down when everyone is so freaking bullish?
And I posted this onto the-
Michael, it's gone up by so much, though, dude.
The market's gone up by so much in the last year.
Everyone needs to chill out.
Like, it went up too much.
It needs to cool down.
No, no, it needs to melt faces.
I remember the Honey Badger.
This is not the Honey Badger.
This is a chilled version of a squirrel or some shit.
Like, I remember the Honey Badger not giving a crap longs or shorts and literally would just pump.
Like, I remember when it was ranging at, let's see, like, 2,800.
It was ranging to 3,000.
It would not top last at all.
And then within, I think it was like within 30 minutes or so.
Literally, there's one fat candle, and I call it the big green dildo that literally just wrecks.
It's a wrecking ball.
It causes collateralization.
Every single person that's on the top side of it that's waiting for it to go down.
it doesn't and it starts collateralizing to where it's like look liquidation liquidation liquidation
liquidation and it hunts for a lot of the whales i mean what of my what of my friends was an
advisor for ftx and i mean we all know the name and stuff but here's the piece of nugget that came
from that conversation uh he's like we don't even need to trade against the traders like to
to wreck anybody honestly it's faster if they trade against themselves because
Because a market that's, there's only two ways, there's shorts or longs,
they're going to murder themselves over a long enough amount of time horizon that we don't need to intervene.
Even if we have the market data, the market data doesn't do anything because it invalidates so quickly.
And now a thing in terms of defy is like, okay, there's not a lot of hedging strategies,
there's not a lot of ways to mitigate impermanent loss besides switching into stables, right?
Well, if you switch from Coinbase BTC on MetaMask, you know, you lose 600 bucks.
Or you switch it on ShapeShift, you save 600 bucks.
That yield could be then placed into devout protocols, right?
If you look at it on an exchange, you can place a 1X short.
And your USD value will stay the exact same.
So if you go into a one Bitcoin short position, right,
and Bitcoin pumps 20K on your unrealized P&L, technically,
it says negative 20K, but the value of it has increased by 20K.
Now, the purpose of this isn't because, oh yeah,
a 1X short basically doesn't mean anything.
It's to stable out for a lot of the portions,
but you also receive the funding rates, right?
In DFA, you receive the protocol fees or you receive the swap fees for asset utilization.
The thing about moving ranges, especially with exotics, right, like how Taco was saying, if you have it to where there's two shit coins going into an LP pool, it's going to be very, very fluctuating.
You can't have it to where it's within a 1% stable range. You're not going to make any money.
But for a stable coin, that 1% range, you think USDT and USDAC is going to fluctuate out of it?
If it does, you might want to get it the fuck out of the market.
Like when USDC almost had its unpegging and everyone's like top blasting and saying,
okay, we got to get out of this.
We got to get out of this.
You know, I bought this shit out of that.
I did.
I was so surprised people were panicking.
USC's too big.
I panicked at 95 cents.
I panicked at 95 cents because I saw the collateralization.
on defy there was so much stables in defy at that time that if it kept on going it would have been
a market ending thing you got you got sophisticated with it bro i just looked at it and i said u s dc circle
no no no this is not going to be okay of course you buy it because circle's going to be backed by it right
well the thing is we just we just left ftx celsius you know like all these other companies and we're like
shit this is the next one but you look at defy same thing it's like
If you have liquidation after liquidation, Maker Dow is going to have to place up that liquidation and there's going to have to be a, you know, a buy on the chart or so.
I think that, you know, with Bitcoin right now, Bitcoin is being taken off exchanges.
It's an all-time low on exchanges.
You look at spot volumes.
Someone was saying spot volumes was really high earlier.
No, look at perps.
On literally look at the perps and kind of like the the funding rates for a lot of them.
Dude, Bitcoin was negative funding rate for a good few hours.
You have it to where you can just go a 1x long.
There you go.
Opposite way of a 1x short, 1x long.
You have it to where a lot of the exchanges,
Sooner or later, there's going to be a freaking fat short squeeze because what's going to happen is that there's going to be no more Bitcoin for cell wall pressure.
And when that happens, the liquidity book is going to start to thin and get very, very thin.
Bitcoin and Eith on exchanges are at all time lows while stable coins on exchanges are at all time highs.
Now, I looked at who actually is selling.
It's institutions.
It's US institutions.
Freakin paper hands is actually the ones that are trying to say that, hey, look, Bitcoin
is the next revolution.
They're actually dumping on you majority of the time.
But the funny thing is, if you look at on-chain in terms of tracking,
you actually see that Korea is actually net positive in terms of buying Bitcoin.
So new whales accumulation for Bitcoin and ETH, all time high in terms of Korea.
So maybe there's a kimchi premium that's going to come V2, right?
Kimshi V premium V2 that's going to come up.
But I think it's going to be the inverse where U.S. is going to have to pay that to Korea,
to South Korea, of course, because they're going to be the main holders of it.
And exchanges, once again, the buy walls and sell walls are going to get more thin and thin.
I mean, you look at liquidation heat maps.
This thing is getting easier and easier because there's literally not that much liquidity left on exchange.
If stable coins are at all time high, perps markets are going to go crazy.
And what happens with Stables, that's sideline cash to where you can go long or short.
So you could wreck the market, right?
But the thing is, the better ARB would actually be to increase the markets to wreck all of the shorts because that would be Max Payne.
Yeah.
Sorry, that was very long, but...
I love wrecking shorts.
You know, USDC, depegging was...
That was what, so I had, I had PTSD with that. I was 100% trading into it and like trading, you know, into dye and then rebuying and trading out. And I was like just, you know, I wish I had like the size of size, you know, to do that. But like.
I was making my piece of pie.
But at the same time...
You could have had it to where you were buying on a decks.
You deposit it onto Coinbase and it was still redeemed for one.
Oh, no.
So like I literally had whales that were like, bro, how much can you fucking buy on the decks right now?
Because I'm just going to get that.
It's like a T plus three because it takes like three days or so to wire it to your account.
So they're like...
millions of dollars on that trade.
I was having so much fun with that.
Do not get me wrong.
But I also had a little bit of PTSD
since someone, you know, of Terra Luna days
where I was like, I remember when it hit,
you know, drop down in it and it hit like 10 cents and it just stayed there for like a minute and a
half. I was driving. I know exactly where I was. I was driving. I had a laptop open. I had a tablet open.
I had two phones open. I was trying to save every bit of capital that I could. And when it paused at 10 cents,
I was like, oh,
They're about to flip the switch and like recapitalize this.
Like let's go fucking long on.
Oh, and like 45 seconds later, you know,
De-listing. I was completely-
Exchange has actually got liquidated so much that they were so negative that they had to de-list.
It was- But the worst one is actually the COVID crash.
Yeah. And that was actually on Bitcoin.
Yep.
Quick story about that.
Bitcoin is at 20K?
I gotta go soon just as a heads up. I don't want to just go for it.
One quick minute. One quick minute. So Bitcoin was at 20K.
And COVID happened, right?
Everyone was starting to panic.
And I remember I was at my friend's house and I was driving home.
And I just see Bitcoin's now at 15, 14, 13, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4.
And I got home at 4.
And I was jumping onto the market as quickly as I could, impossible.
The thing is, if Coinbase, Krakken, Bitmex, Binance, and all the main big exchanges
at the time didn't.
get together and turn off their trading services for 15 minutes combined.
Think about this.
The entire industry for all centralized exchanges turned off for 15 minutes.
Reason why all the bots that were trading on automated market makers and stuff like that
were selling as much Bitcoin as they could.
Every single signal across all of the bots where it's just sell, sell, sell, sell, sell.
If they didn't do that, Bitcoin would have went to zero on the exchanges or potentially like once again really, really low on there.
Right when they turned it back on, all of the bots had to reconnect and stuff like that, it reevaluated the chart.
I longed at Bitcoin at 100x.
I literally had like 100 bucks literally left on my account.
I was like, fuck it.
I lost all the way down.
I placed that $100 into 100 X long.
Bitcoin jumped almost instantly to 5K.
And everyone's like, oh, this is the floor.
It hit 7.
And then slowly over time, it hit 11, 12, and it went to the next all-time high.
That was the craziest freaking trade I've ever done.
But also at the same time, it was the scariest moment in terms of shit is an entire industry about to get wiped.
But luckily, the exchanges all got together and knew what was going on.
shut their exchanges off and said screw profits real quick, we need to save the industry or else there's no company to come back to.
And that's and I remember that.
Yeah.
And so that's why when I do futures, I, I only 300 X long that bitch, you know, excuse my language.
Because you get 300 X.
Everything's only giving me the shitty, freaking 100x long max.
DM me and I'll get you.
I don't want to go on a tangent.
We're like talking about person.
I love the personal stories and I love shooting the shit with you guys.
But Hesuz has been waiting for a while.
I do remember Michael the COVID crash.
I didn't, I didn't, I remember where I was as well.
didn't long, but I also just went on my coinbase and I just hit the max daily purchase button.
So I'm glad you guys caught that.
The TeraLuna stuff, I also remember where I was for that.
And I...
You know, I was upset with myself for not selling the market top back in 2021.
And then I had this, like, huge feeling of relief because I realized that had I sold,
I would have just dumped it all into anchor, right?
I would have dumped it all into anchor.
And I would have probably lost everything.
But anyway, we can go into those stories another time.
Hey, Zeus, there was their remark made about gaming.
I just because we've gone on several kind of.
side conversations since then.
There was a comment made about gaming
that you gave a thumbs down to
when Taco said the reason is because there isn't regulatory clarity.
So I just wanted to kind of refresh that and hear from you
because I know you're a big...
You're big web three gaming guy.
And look, I play once a week, the classic Wow anniversary realm with my old guild.
I love playing just to decompress and have some fun.
I streamed it on the Moby account last night.
And I was thinking to myself, you know, why...
Why don't we have a game, a Web3 game that feels like this, that looks like this?
It's not hard to bail.
I mean, I don't know.
I don't say it's not hard, but it's a 20-year-old game, and it makes sense.
People still love it.
People still play it.
I don't get why we're not able to just copy pasta this formula with a few tweaks.
Yeah, so my perspective here is I'm a bit of a masochist at times.
Also like to shave years off of my life expectancy.
It's a big reason why I got into cryptocurrency in the first place.
Yeah, of course, all of us.
And also a big reason I got into gaming playing League of Legends.
So I've been playing off the grid and I hit 29 kills the other day.
My perspective is, and the reason I put the down.
sign on there is because of immutable, a meetable just got their inquiry dropped from the SEC.
OpenC got their case drop from the SEC. A bunch of these marketplaces got everything dropped.
I mean, there's no friction. There's zero friction. Guys, Trump made a meme coin. There's no friction
in terms of coins. It's all over there. Like, you can do whatever you want at this point. I
could launch a coin tomorrow and be perfectly fine more than likely. So, yeah.
Yeah, here we are in 2025.
I'm not doing that though.
I'm not doing that.
Run away, run away.
But yeah, so here's my take on gaming.
Gaming won.
The big reason that gaming is struggling this cycle is because a lot of these guys that haven't
really built games before decided to raise money and then build a gaming studio, realized
that A, it's really expensive to get a game developer.
The average salary for a game developer in the US is over $100,000.
Very expensive. Your burn rate can get very high, very quickly. Yeah, you can outsource to different
countries. There's quality drop. There's different things you have to take it to account,
language barriers.
It's really hard to build a game and it takes a long time to build a game.
Now, what I will say for gaming side is I like you how you were disagreeing with the AI agent take because I kind of agree with you that AI is going to be very pivotal.
You know, I think we're going to be running into energy problems, which Michael kind of approached me.
It was during East Denver.
We saw a panel with Greg from Akash talking about how like Nvidia is going to have problems selling GPUs.
because we're going to have energy problems in the near future.
And like, yeah, but I think we can use a limited amount of that for gaming and build games.
I know cursor is getting a lot of, you know, interactions right now and people are starting
to test ways to fire their game developers so they don't spend as much money.
So that was the big problem this cycle.
The guys were all selling token rounds with these ludicrous FDVs because they needed
to raise money to build games.
They unfortunately didn't know how to control token and then awesome at the same time.
They need to build games and then you need to raise money to throw big parties in Dubai and you got to throw parties.
And you got to have a plane rave.
Don't forget that.
Yeah, cruises.
Oh, God.
Don't get me going on this tangent about the number of crypto games, quote unquote, that raised money to build the game.
But they just went off and blew it on a bunch of strippers and cocaine.
But I'm sorry.
Continue.
Hays is.
So yeah, it doesn't prove the model doesn't work or anything.
It just proves that we like to have fun in Dubai and it proves that there's a lot of people
that felt like they knew how to build a game, but they've never actually built a game before.
So what we're getting is there are a very limited amount of players that are actually
building shit that people are playing.
I mean, OTG, Maple Story Universe, we have Pirate Nation with some on-chain stuff.
Like a couple of games are getting traction.
And realistically speaking, absolutely...
Absolutely, none of this is going to matter in a couple of years when Steam dropped some BS.
People get pissed off because that's how gaming works.
We all get very sentimental.
And then everybody wants to have freedom.
And then that's when gaming takes off.
But I think the big, big, big run is not this cycle.
It's going to be next cycle.
It's going to be AI.
These AI games with these very limited amount of funding rounds needed.
And hopefully, you know, if Mr. Taco here is correct, we have equity rounds.
instead of token rounds.
So our tokens don't get completely and utterly diluted to shit the second they launch
with these game devs that don't care whether or not the gaming token survives.
I've been looking at a take from example, creator called Ghost, and he's like, okay, you know,
Web3 gaming tokens are dead right now.
And to be honest, it's a good thing because...
These games are still alive.
They already raise their money.
They really don't care.
They're going to do well no matter what.
They're still going to be building their game,
even if their tokens down 99%.
The token isn't really that important.
And a lot of these games should not have tokens in the first place,
which is why my take here is that
Revenue from NFT marketplaces, everybody having their own marketplace makes sense totally for it.
Also think tokenizing everything, having everything immutable on chain.
Example, I buy V bucks from Fortnite.
I want to have it on chain so I can go complain the customer support about it.
Awesome.
Let's go do that.
There's already tech out there that is available to do that.
So the.
The very limited use cases that we have already work.
But the reason that we're not using them is because we cannot make money off of them.
If we can make money off of them, then they kind of would be a lot more adopted right now.
So, yeah, we got to get all these token rounds to rug.
And we also need AI to come.
And we need off the grid to launch ready to get more VC capital into our space.
Please.
Thank you.
Got the number of...
crypto games quote on I always put quotes because they're they're vaporware and they're
did it's like dog shit incomplete games but the number of these games that have utility tokens
that are trading I just I don't understand how people still fall for this and you ask anyone
outside of you ask any any web two game or any traditional game or what they think about you
uh let's say for wow for example you just let's say there's a bunch of gold trading on binance
so wow gold training but the game's not even complete yet the game the game is 10 percent
complete people are just fight it's it's fucking ridiculous man um all right i want to go to man i'm
going way over i can i can multitask right now okay i want to go to the sath we haven't
heard from him yet and then we can swing over to the other hands and then i'm going to have to
wrap things up
Yo, thank you so much for having me on the space.
And I'm sorry for joining late, but I'm just going to say that to hit all the main talking points of the title of the space,
where are we in BTC and crypto adoption and why is Web3 getting bad?
Well, I'm going to go in reverse order and just say,
um, Jesus will save you.
Jesus's opinion will save you.
And everything that Jesus just told you is true.
Amen.
So where are we in the crypto adoption cycle?
and actually actually getting Bitcoin and crypto to,
to run the right way.
But by the way, um,
Cuban brother from another mother,
African Cuban brother from another mother.
I really do co-sign most of what this guy says.
Like legit.
So, um,
And let's not make it racist.
Don't be weird.
Okay.
Don't,
don't make it weird.
I mean,
I said a thing.
Words have meaning,
but you don't have to make it weird.
The crypto doctrine cycle,
I think that we have some issues right now.
And yes.
Yes.
The incentives have been perverse for a while.
So when you've seen me be bearish towards Web3 gaming, you are now seeing the manifestation of what I was saying.
That's why I was bearish.
So I love the way Hesus did that, in a much more intelligent way, because he's living this, right?
He's literally in the trenches every day on Web3 gaming.
Same with Taco.
and Michael and others on the space.
So I don't want to speak out of turn as far as that goes,
but I've been net bearish towards it
because I realized I could not become a domain expert
doing what they do in the same amount of time.
I just saw that, I forecasted we'd have some problems, right?
And so yeah, the equity problem is a big, big part of that.
Bitcoin and crypto adoption.
I think right now we're seeing tokenization, real world assets, air quotes, which is essentially
what everyone's talking about when you're talking about getting equity, becoming the
replacement for tokens.
Well, guess what?
When you're investing in equity in these games, it's probably going to be an RWA.
Shock and awe.
Yeah.
Everything's going to dovetail.
So much stuff is going to look like the same thing in the next couple of years.
And by the next cycle, we're going to be like, wow, were we all profits?
Were we all fools on the hill?
Right.
Are we all homeless?
I mean, maybe this and more.
Like probably, yeah, a lot of the stuff is just going to dovetail into very interesting outcomes.
But the crypto side, the tech, is going to stop mattering so much to most people.
They're going to, the stuff that we call RWAs,
the plebs are going to call equity.
The stuff that we call titles in real estate, sorry, that they call titles in real estate,
we're going to be like, yeah, see, I told you it was RWA's.
They're not going to care.
They're not going to care.
And the color of their money is not going to matter.
Right.
So we're seeing kind of a broad awakening to the fact that these are just tools.
And we're early toolmakers, maybe early tools of the marketing machinery ourselves.
But like we're early tool makers and we're just early adopters of those tools.
But the mass adoption, I think, is going to come when people stop caring that it's Bitcoin or crypto, when they just see that it's like, oh, rewards.
I earned rewards by using this website, by shopping at this place.
Oh, in-game currency.
It's still just gold.
it never stopped being gold it's just gold i don't care which chain it's on and i know it's there
can be chain maxim lists or whatever somebody who who got paid by by a chain sometime in the last six
months it's like how dare you speak against my bags um but i mean we we've all seen this coming right
and why not bitcoin why not second layers on bitcoin none of us have come with a good answer
against that i think um like it's still kind of anyone's game as far as where we build
But I think that, yeah, the mass adoption, the genuine mass adoption, and not just 20% of Americans who happen to hold some Bitcoin and happen to hold some other L1 gas token, you know, utility token.
But like genuine adoption was going to come when people just don't think about it anymore in the same way that like you don't think about what is under the hood of your car anymore.
And you don't even care if it uses internal combustion anymore.
You just want when your foot goes on the pedal for it to go, you know, zoom.
That's about it.
And then now I guess you do kind of want auto guidance systems and fully self-driving mode.
It's getting a little more complicated than that.
But you know what I mean.
The race driver versus the mechanic example.
If you're a Formula one person, right?
Like some people just want to drive.
They love the idea of just driving it.
So adoption happens when people just get in and
And the thing is just a vehicle for them.
They just drive it.
They don't have to worry about the nerdy crap that we, like Hesu said so well,
it's taken years off of our lives by trying to build or trying to bring to the people.
Anyway, thanks for having out of space, man.
I love you all.
Really, legit.
Can't wait to see you all in Vegas soon.
Appreciate you, Seth, man.
Anytime Seth speaks, a bunch of hands go up.
So let's just get to them.
Taco.
Mike's yours, sir.
One, I love, this has all been a great freaking space.
I love everyone up here.
So one thing I wanted to touch on that was a little off, like, because Seth brought up AI agents.
Yeah.
Noah, you brought up AI agents and stuff like that.
How many freaking agents are we going to have that are going to give me market sentiment, you know?
and the waste from that.
One of the really cool things that, like,
I think it was Michael that was talking about, you know,
at Eath, Denver, or it might have been Hesus, you know,
Greg's talk.
I love Greg.
You know, I'm not in competition with him with my protocol and stuff like that.
Like, I'm in, like, channel partner mode type of thing.
And so I think we're, like, the hardest piece for, for,
consumption of power and both on the energy side but computational power you know we're finding
in in a more not in a node infrastructure we have some there's some really cool projects out
there like gamer hash which like you know web three gamers have amazing rigs um but
But they're not always playing.
And so putting that computational power to work, I think is going to be one of the biggest power moves.
I think that we're going to see.
The things that we're building at Manifest is going to be one of the things that we see people come into, you know, not for the weekend warriors, but for like the businesses to have, you know,
actual compute power, I think is going to be one of the bigger plays.
As far as Seth was saying to, you know, Bitcoin L2s, quit fucking with my Bitcoin, man.
Like, everyone wants to change Bitcoin, change its block size and stuff like that.
Bitcoin has gotten to a point to where, like,
It has certain protections, you know, and this is sort of like any city, you know, that we see that, oh, like the political or the, you know, the tone of the city makes it really friendly for businesses, which then, you know, bring more people in for those businesses.
And then those people want to try to, like, put their views on that city in some way, shape, or form.
And then it completely changes the city.
to where it's not what it was anymore.
And that story is repeated a thousand times over across the world.
So I'm not-
I'm only going to break protocol once because I love you too much to let you say this
without a good sparring partner.
Would you say that Bitcoin is, Bitcoin ossification is a good thing?
So Bitcoin ossification as it currently is, I think is.
Okay, so let me use an example really quickly.
Would you say that the pyramids at Giza were ossified?
And you know where I'm going now.
You're trying to get into the dinosaur thing.
And I understand.
No, I'm really not, though.
I'm really not.
If you're not well read on the recent news of the pyramid that Giza,
we've discovered some interesting design primitives that are not just what you see.
Exactly. And I think we haven't fully used Bitcoin to what we can fully do with it before we change it. Because it's Bitcoin core that like that got that got us to where we are today. Why change it before we we fully have it? This is what's.
been the aphrodisiac to everything so far of,
of, you know, being the sirens of getting people in.
Why change it before everyone is in?
That's my thought on that piece.
Like Bitcoin L2s, I think, you know,
This is the like are there going to be some awesome players you know bitlayer is doing some really cool things there's you know
And I'll be honest. I'm biased because I know the founder Charlie willy well and and like I think he's freaking
Amazingly smart and I love what they're doing
So I'm biased on bitlayer, but I think some of the other Bitcoin L2s are doing really cool
So quit trying to change the underlying structure and
You know, if the underlying structure is solid, why fuck that up?
Yeah, Bitcoin Cash. You should go to zero.
Well, yeah, Bitcoin Cash.
Yeah, BSB. You should not invent ordinals and save the fee marketplace of BTC.
You shouldn't do that. Yeah. Here's the thing. It's nuanced, right?
Like, we are, everybody in this room, you know, God willing, everybody in this room will live long enough to see Bitcoin emit 99.99% of all rewards.
We will need fees.
Yes.
after the year 2040, not 2140, 2040 and largely after 2030-ish, right?
Kind of kind of corresponds, correlates pretty well with the fourth turning, if you haven't read that book.
I mean, weird how that worked out.
But like, but we're going to see Bitcoin absolutely dependent on fees only.
Like, God willing, we'll all live long enough.
I hope everyone here is healthy and strong, right, to see this with their own eyes.
But we'll live long enough to see that Bitcoin requires a robust fee structure.
Guess who created that in Ordnals?
It was not mainline BTC Maxis.
It was the heretics.
It was the BSV community that did that.
We absolutely require.
Why not just integrate like Wimble Wimble and all the other stuff to now make Bitcoin private, right?
Because it worked on, it worked on like coin.
So in theory, you can also have ordinals on light coin as well.
Well, we can have ordinals on any chain as we've seen.
We've seen inscriptions happen, you know.
But right now, ordinals like in my opinion, one sap should equal one set.
And ordinal throws that off.
And for the simple piece that still a bug update can be pushed, it does not need minor approval and can wipe all ordinal's connections.
So, like, trying, like, when people are trying to say this stuff is immutable, no, a bug update can be pushed and wipe it.
It just hasn't been done yet because Core is still trying to figure this out.
And that's one of the really cool things about it is it's not trying to, like, as we saw with, like, like, fee structure changes in Solana recently with SIMD 0228.
That one, it had the popular vote, but it didn't have the threshold vote.
And that was a really awesome time to sort of see.
And so because people were looking at the short term.
They're looking at short term solutions for something that is not here for the short term.
You know, because people are just trying to get their extraction out now, you know.
they want it to inflate as quickly as possible so that they can get their defy ponziomics out of the way it's the way of defy right
like if you go into a thousand percent apyy pool it's like
After you receive your initials in terms of rewards, you're now playing with house money.
I totally.
So you just pull out your initials.
You know, like right now, like one of my favorite ones is on beefy, you know, more from Morpheus.
Like last night, the APY was like 4,000 percent, you know.
Oh my God.
It's Morpheus back?
Dude, don't hate all my Morpheus.
We never went away.
No, no. Wasn't there a Morpheus swap?
No, no.
No, no. Different Morpheus. This Morpheus is just over a year old.
Mike was showing his age.
Yeah, this one's newer. This is about a year old. We've had, I'm one of the code contributors.
So we've had over $2.2 billion go through our contract in the last year.
you know so without any issue so like this is like this stuff i sure is the right morphius that's all
uh yeah m or uh green green logo morphius a i's um but no you're able to push 4 000 percent apr
Is it based off of the inflation and the price increase of the token?
Or like, how are you able to sustain that?
So that one, that one's a beefy.
Because of gauge voting on aerodrome.
So that's not even a, that's not even a protocol incentive.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Check that one out with it.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it for a day.
Like, yeah.
Safe shift.
Let's hear from you, sir.
And then I will wrap things up.
Hey, epic group. Congratulations. Nice space. I just wanted to throw out there.
Mind you, I'm a simple shape shift intern. But historically, why I'm here is because we should first establish the facts that we could agree upon and then debate our opinions.
That's probably the best way forward. And historically, just a nutshell, at 20 seconds,
that permissions are always required and IOUs and trust is always mandatory.
I came here for permissionlessness.
Defi has no off switch.
They're not going to shut your funds down.
There's no freezing your account on fill in the centralized exchange name.
It applies to all of them.
So I think moving forward,
The divide is going to be contrasted with those that hold their own and those that hold IOU and pray for trust that they can liquidate, cash in, or move whatever their belongings are.
I may be wrong. I just thought we'd try to fill that bottomless bucket of mine candy up and have something to think about.
Are we here to hold an IOU or are we here to self-custody permissionlessly?
Thanks for having me, Moby. Great bunch of guys.
Question. If you go into a DFI protocol, technically you're trusting the DFI protocol. You're trusting the code.
But then also for Bitcoin, I'm just messing with you, but I'm just like trying to play the contrary and type of view.
If you're trusting in Bitcoin, technically you're trusting into the code, even though it's decentralized trust, right?
You're still having to have a trusted party.
Trust isn't something that is usually given.
It's usually earned.
That's a preferred way.
And I would say earned trust is probably going to be better instead of having it to where it's decentralized.
trust the systems because you're going to have to trust something whether it's the code
whether it's please smart contract don't have any exploits and uh give north korea 1.4 billion
dollars oh agreed i violently agree but within that trust do the are the trusted parties
in possession of an off switch in defy in it
In centralized exchanges, it doesn't depend.
I believe the clarity of fact is that 100% of centralized exchanges have off switch
and have exploited their wielding of freezing of accounts.
Just scoreboard.
Happy to debate.
It's important to establish quality of fact first.
I respect your opinion.
And Godspeed, everybody, hold your own.
Or trust somebody else to hold it for you with an off switch.
I definitely, like, I love your take on it and stuff.
I was just trying to do the, you know, the devil's advocate side of it, you know, with Defi.
I heard it's a lot.
Salada has all switches.
I've been there, Michael.
I've tried to do the devil's advocate thing.
I've gotten cursed out on spaces once.
Oh, dude, people hate it when I do that.
And they're like, aren't you a crypto bull?
And I was like, yeah, I'm still at the end of the day all about the crypto space.
But it's just, you know, just to get the mine rolling a little bit, it's like, okay,
Solana has an essentialized on and off switch.
So does...
Oh, boy. Okay. I was Justin was here right now. You're opening a can of worms, man. You really don't want me to close to space.
The SPS in jail. SPS in jail. Shlana hasn't dropped down yet. So I don't think that's true. I don't. And this is this is coming from someone that used to bashful all the time. I've
I've had the privilege of speaking to people that are much smarter than me.
And I don't, that's not true, Michael.
Sol doesn't have an odd.
You can't just, like, turn it off.
And if you think that's the case, please invite me.
SBAFs in jail that Solana has not once gone offline.
I mean, I'm not saying that he has like a literal honor and off switch.
No, it did.
But the validated network is basically the on and off switch in terms of influence.
What? I don't get that.
There's, there is, there are enough validators and soul is sufficiently decentralized where you can't just, you can't just coordinate turning off all the validators.
I mean, maybe you can hypothetically, but it's highly unlikely.
If you were part of the race and all of your friends are basically.
So, so, was it turned off, the chain was paused?
And not even pause, truly paused.
It was slowed down to such a space that it could catch up with all of the transactions that had happened.
Oh, as in valianters turn off and then...
Now other validators are unable to connect to each other due to latency.
Justin will be on the space next week.
He'll be debating one of the Bitcoin guys is Yago.
I'm trying to coordinate between two of them.
You guys are all welcome to join.
And I think Justin would wipe the floor with that remark right now, Michael.
I can't do this.
I mean, SDF shield me Solana before it launched.
I get it.
I get it.
I get it, but to Sol's credit, they've come a long way since then.
And I don't think I've ever seen in the seven years that I've been around.
I don't think I've ever seen a protocol die the way that sold it and rise from the ashes the way that it did.
Heath Classic and Heath, the Dowford.
God, come on, dude, Heath Classic at the fork.
Bitcoin dropped from $30 to a dollar.
Now, Bitcoin's different.
We're not talking about it.
Bitcoin's its own asset.
Well, the East fork, right?
The Dow hack and it forced into two, I mean, it's a fork, but still, it ruined the network.
And it was, yeah, but Heath wasn't, East wasn't a defy juggernaut back then.
There was no daps on East.
It was like right after the, shortly after the, the, um, the ICO.
I'm talking about it, a thriving ecosystem like Solana in 2021, dying, a swift death after the SBF fiasco.
Everyone calling it cooked and then it rises from the ashes and it flips B&B.
Where do you come from, though?
I was telling you to buy it at $8, Noah.
Yeah, I fucked up.
I didn't know.
GSR was telling me to sell.
And every single time I freaking see them tell me to sell, it's literally the bottom of the chart.
And I was like, bro, next time just message me whenever you feel like the bottom is in for any token.
So I know.
But no, where did the volume come from from Solana, right?
Like everything flew into bunk.
Everything flew into memes because people realize that memes and shit coins that don't have...
What's that?
Who's the main accumulators of bunk?
It's a Hail Mary effort, though.
It didn't just all flow into bunk, though, Michael.
It didn't just all flow into bunk.
It flew into pump.
Fun memes.
People realize that they might as well take a chance with dog shit that tells you it's dog shit versus all these paperware projects like Bitfinity, blazing fast EVM that LARP and tell you they're going to build this amazing Bitcoin layer too while they're just.
criminals in the background soft-rugging their investors.
So I mean, this is a multi-
The VCs finally got together.
And this, okay, so why did Shiba Enu push into the top market caps and why was it listed onto FTX first on 50X leverage and then listed onto spot?
It's because Sam during the bear market accumulated so much Shiba Enu and everyone was selling on him that he needed to make sure that this thing worked.
Right. So listed it onto FTX. FtX then places it to Alameda. Alameda is able to pump it. She pumps, right? He's able to exit out of the out of the exchanges.
Next thing you know, Solana comes into the picture, and then afterwards, Sam's finished with Shiba'ino.
It's already a multi-billion dollar meme.
So what do you do?
Funk.
No, no.
Originally, it was Namo.
No, I mean, I mean, dude, you guys are, Michael, you're picking something that's very niche, like a single event and you're, I know you're trying to, maybe you're trying to be contrarian or maybe not, but you're conflating with with Salana success as an ecosystem.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
You're saying that Salonica can be shut on and off.
They have an on and off switch, which is also not true.
No, no, I'm being the contrarian, and it is something that's like, I'm just, I'm just being the shit poster, okay?
Go ahead, go ahead.
So, like, I know the data center where the data center where the first Genesis block of Solano was mined.
I use the term mine.
No, in Denver, Colorado.
That's, that's, that's our, that's, that's one of our data centers.
So I, like, I actually, I know the data center.
So, no, it's not an FTX stronghold.
It's not, you know, like...
Yeah, no, like, I know you're being contrary.
I love it.
I'm just giving takes that sometimes people in the market might not see.
Or, I mean, if it is, if it isn't, there's so many actors in crypto that it's really difficult to kind of say.
But like if I said to a journalist, hey, look, since SBF's been in jail, Solana hasn't turned off.
It's like, well, since he's been in jail, Bitcoin hasn't hit a million dollars, you know?
They had an outage, though.
They had an outage last year.
There's been three pauses since SBF has been in cuffs.
You know, so, you know.
You're not helping the case, sir.
Yeah.
Michael, there's being contrarian and then there's just saying things that are that are objectively false.
There are truths if you can read between the lies.
Oh my God.
Okay.
So I call on fact checker.
Backchecker.
You're saying there's an on and off switch for Seoul.
Like there is a man behind a curtain that can switch it on and off.
No, no, no, not the switch.
But the next few minutes that I said in that little rant, there is some truth.
Right, you talked about the whole SBF and the selling the Shiba and all these stuff.
But I don't understand how that relates to Salana being able to them able to turn it on and off.
And I get that there, and you're saying there hasn't been an outage since he's gone to.
He's saying because FX was a large validator set.
that I understand what he's saying.
That is controlled by the same.
There has been an outage, though.
There has been an outage.
There has been a pause outage, whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, someone forgot to pay their internet bill.
Oh, my.
The VPS bill.
Okay, Michael really doesn't want me to shut it down.
Prometheus, I'll give the last words to you, and then I'm going to wrap things up.
I'm very late right now.
Hey guys, thank you, Noah. Really appreciate it.
No, guys, look, just very quickly, this is the biggest bull cycle the world has ever seen for space,
and we're just at the beginning of it.
And the only reason is because of regulation and a pro-crypto administration that just built the first crypto reserve.
Okay, so I personally believe that we are going to see like tokens like XRP,
like go to the moon um you know a hundred dollar xrp at the end of this cycle very possible
a thousand dollars beyond that some people are saying even 10 000 who knows we'll see but i like
generally speaking gentlemen um i'm just so done with f tx and the past like and meme coins i'm glad
we're past that phase um we are going to see a dynamic like all these different you are ruggin brother
i don't know if that's me or that's you but
I don't hear you anymore.
I think the administration short term is actually bearish for the space.
It was kind of like a top signal.
And Trump token actually extracted so much value from the space for a little bit.
But it was needed.
It was definitely needed to wipe the leverage and reset the markets before we can actually push up.
Because if you're seeing people with...
Frickin fart coin making millions of dollars, right?
What's going to happen next is like, it's the froth in the market, man.
It's when a kid makes a million dollars minting NFTs last cycle and then exit the space.
It's like, good for you, no hate, honestly.
But don't hate on my card coin strategic reserve.
tries to create a strategic reserve to make sure that he actually sets a generational floor.
All right, Jen.
I love you all so much, Prometheus.
Sorry, you got rugged.
I got to go.
I'm very late, and I don't like speeding on the road.
So, yeah, next week we're going to...
I think I've almost locked it down.
We're going to have a Bitcoin versus Salana debate.
I know it's not typically.
It's usually Ethan Salana or some other L2 or L1 and Seoul versus...
I'm sorry?
I'll be team Salonah next week.
Yeah, it'll be fun.
I'm getting Justin and Hugo.
I think it'll be a good one.
It's going to be a little bit more...
What do you mean?
It's going to be a little bit more rigid than usual, but there will be a Q&A portion
and there'll be plenty of time to throw questions or throw contrarian views, as you call them, Michael,
back at the Bitcoin maxi or the sole maxi, but it sounds like you're going to be team sole next week.
So thank you.
I'll be able to your soul, depending on the price.
That's fair.
Thank you, everyone, for joining.
Hope that a lot of you are going to be in Dubai.
I'm still not sure, but I'm leaning on yes, so I'd love to see you all there.
If not, Bitcoin.
Nah, Bitcoin, Las Vegas.
Anyway, thank you for joining.
Paris Blockchain Week.
Paris Blockchain Week.
When's that?
Oh, shit, I haven't heard that in a while.
April 8th, 9th, and 10th.
Hmm.
I'll be in four countries next month.
Four countries in two states.
Dude, you travel more than anyone.
I know it's insane.
Noah, you should go to token 2049.
In Dubai?
Yeah.
Yeah, the one in Singapore was arguably, no, not arguably, the one in Singapore was the best conference experience I've had in my life.
It was, and I've been to a lot of conferences.
I'm a conference organizer, and I do say that, you know, Singapore is probably the, the craziest in terms of exposure, the craziest in terms of if you're a project looking for funding, you know, KOLs, marketing, all these things.
It's basically everyone in crypto coming together.
Props to what they've built, honestly.
Yeah.
I just love the, yes, agreed with all the above, and I just love the country.
I love the food.
The people were amazing.
Everything was really close.
That would be vape over there.
Yeah, well, they want their citizens to be healthy.
They don't want you bringing your degenerate shit over from the U.S.
Contrarian view, but they have a casino right in the bottom of MBS.
They don't want drugs infiltrated.
Yeah, but they're getting a cut from those drugs.
They don't want, they don't want their, if you fly in via Korea, you're fine and you can bring all the vapes you want.
Don't, hey, this is where we cross the line.
Here's a piece of life advice.
Don't fuck around in Singapore because finding out is not a pretty story.
And same goes with Dubai.
Anyway, I, yeah, Dubai is going to be cool.
I don't know if I'm coming yet, but I'm trying to lead on yes.
Thank you, everybody.
joining. Remember that everything you hear on these broadcasts are meant for educational purposes only.
Nothing is financial advice. So be safe out there and we will see you all on the next one soon. Take care.
