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Why building games on-chain? Use cases for players and businsses
Recorded: April 24, 2023 Duration: 1:48:21Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello.
I love you.
You,
We had thousands of people to play it over the week as well.
And next month, with our other games, Park Bowl,
we're launching a tournament with at least 5,000 people
playing on a single weekend, right?
So these kinds of things, I think, are gaining adoption.
But to answer the question as well, why should it be on-chain?
Actually, besides the financial aspect of it,
we also think there's a lot of tech right now that is viable, right?
For example, there's this one partner that we have for Harvest
called M1 Network.
What they do is they solve the Google's data problem
using decentralized technology, using blockchain, right?
So they actually do, they render games onto the cloud
using crypto mining nodes.
And that essentially solves the problem that Google had,
which was it was too expensive and too hard to do.
But if you do it via a decentralized chain, right,
it's actually cheaper.
And that makes gaming or crypto gaming,
it enables people to play regardless of the hardware that they have
because it's played via cloud, right?
And that increases adoption even more.
And that's just one tech.
So a few points there.
One is really good high-quality games that people can pivot from free-to-play
to playing and maybe earning and maybe trading.
And then the second is there's an infinitesimal, you know,
degree of tech that is available and we are yet to discover.
Awesome.
Who's next?
Who's going to be grabbing the mic?
I'm going to point a person out.
Marcus, do you want to share your perspective on the transfer
from training gaming,
collecting what had happened in the past?
Because you're a professional player.
I wanted to hear from a studio
and as well as a professional gamer.
Yeah, so I think, like, firstly, the future of...
Like, Poirot pretty much covered a lot of us.
The rest of us can just...
We don't have to talk anymore.
I'll see you guys.
But, yeah, I mean...
I mean, like...
Like, I think as a game itself,
I think, firstly, games shouldn't differentiate...
Like, in the future, it's probably...
Games are not going to be differentiated by Web 2 or Web 3
because, like, ultimately,
I think the best games are built with, like,
the Web 2 gameplay loops
as well as, like, Web 3 elements itself
in the sense of, like...
In the sense of, like, using blockchain technology
for NFT and for assets and for items in the game itself.
But, like, how I see in the future of Web 3 is that...
Or Web 3 gaming is that
it will just be, like, a Web 2.5 variant
of, like, the games,
which means that things that need to be off-chain
will be off-chain
and things that we need on-chain will be on-chain.
This will make things more scalable as well.
And this will also, like,
invite the mainstream gamers.
Because, like, if we talk about Web 3 gaming...
Actually, Web 3 gaming,
the amount of people playing it
is not that much.
And a large majority of, like, Web 3 gamers
are also, like, investors to the game itself.
So how we want to draw
Web 2 gamers themselves
is essentially just by bringing in
better games
and, like, bootstrapping better games
and then selling them to...
Or, like, marketing them
or, like, introducing them
to Web 2 gamers themselves.
Because, like, we have about
one, two million gamers
in, like, the blockchain world,
but you have, like, billions
in the Web 2 world itself.
So essentially, like,
if we're able to make
a gameplay loop that's fun enough for them
and also add in the blockchain element
and you don't even have to mention
that, you know, it's a blockchain game,
that's, I think, where we will flourish.
And that's, I think,
where we will start picking up.
And I guess, as a gamer,
myself, I do see,
because I used to be a pro gamer,
I do really feel that,
like, in three to five years' time
down the road,
the next batch of, like,
eSports games will come from
Web 3 gaming itself
because of how fast
and how accelerated
the pace of, like,
building games are
in the Web 3 world
and how much liquidity
you can bootstrap from,
like, fundraising
and, like, selling NFTs
and, like,
and just by people
believing in a project
and buying your tokens
or whatever not.
So that's how I see
our future is going to be
in terms of Web 3 gaming.
Awesome.
What about Jonathan and Elon?
Do you guys have any
comments to make
for the future landscape
of on-chain gaming?
Yeah, sure.
So, first,
you mentioned about
Play to Earn
that you had some
remarks about this
and you were totally right.
what we have seen
in the last six months
is that a lot of games
have moved from
Play to Earn
to Play to Own
and so,
a lot of games now,
you don't even know
that they are
blockchain games,
that they look like
normal Web 2 games
and you learn,
you know,
step by step
that you can use
these assets
outside of the game
and so on.
So, basically,
at the end,
they let you know,
hey, by the way,
what you have collected
in all the story
and the adventure
and all the hours
you spend in the games,
they are NFTs
and you can do stuff
with that.
You see?
we see a lot of friction
that have been removed
from blockchain games
and this is very encouraging.
you also,
another of the speakers
also mentioned
about the history
of the blockchain,
of the gaming industry.
We have to remember
that we had
a lot of different phases.
We started with
the premium game
on console
with the pay-to-play.
Then we had
the mobile industry
that came with
the free-to-play model
and when
mobile games started,
a lot of traditional companies
looked at mobile games
and said,
guys,
come on,
it's impossible
to make games
on a mobile phone.
The screen is so small.
The performance
is so limited.
How can we do games
on this?
And so,
these traditional companies
have completely missed
the revolution
of mobile.
And today,
if you take
the industry
revenue,
mobile games
is the biggest
share of the revenue
of the gaming industry.
mobile games
today is huge,
but still,
you have a lot of companies
that miss that.
And I think it will be the same
for blockchain games.
I think a lot of game studios
will not realize
that blockchain games
is something
that they have to tap into.
There are many reasons,
of course.
You know,
we have to understand
that not every company
can go into blockchain,
but for the ones
that are already trying
today to understand
this technology
and,
you know,
having their tool
in it.
I think they will have
an advantage.
I think we will have
later more chance
to go deeper
into this,
but basically,
most of the friction
have been removed.
We had,
like,
NFT wallets
with the,
you know,
24 words
that have been removed.
Now,
a lot of wallets,
you can just create them
with a Twitter account
or a Google account.
The gas fees
has been removed
from many chains,
so you have chains
today that's put
the gas fee
on the game studio side,
not on the player side,
so this is a big friction
that has been removed
and a lot of games
had paywalls before.
You had to purchase
NFT to be able
to play the games,
so a lot of games
have understood
that they have to
remove this,
they have to offer
free trials,
at least,
so players can try
the game first
and then if they really
like the game,
they can purchase
NFTs.
You see,
the last really big friction
that we have
is regulations.
Today,
we don't know
if NFTs,
crypto are securities
or not
and this is the reason
why so many
big game companies
are scared
or don't want
to get into
blockchain publicly
at this moment.
A lot of things
are being developed
but this is
all under NDAs,
so a lot of game companies
are exploring blockchain
and so on
but nothing can be public
because they're scared
of backlash
from their communities
and also because
they want to know
regulation,
they want clarity
and so what we see
currently happening
in Asia,
for example,
it's very encouraging
like I'm based in Hong Kong
and Hong Kong
is very proactive.
They already,
they want to be
the digital hub
for stable coins
in Asia.
They are really,
really pushing
to show
some,
you know,
some example
in terms of
regulation
for blockchain
and cryptocurrencies
and I think
this will be
very helpful
for the blockchain
game industry.
Yeah,
these are a few points.
Rick?
Awesome,
Yeah,
I think,
I think it's
really important
for the next questions.
I mean,
it's quite,
quite relevant
in the next question
but if you have
anything to share,
Elon,
feel free to open mic.
Sure,
I think everyone
actually kind of
touched on to
all the points
I wanted to cover
but I think
one more thing
that I would like
to add is that
I'm not sure
if everyone's aware
Square Enix
actually came
into blockchain
and actually
built a chain
just for gaming
already.
So they are
actively looking
for games
to move on
to their chain.
Their chain
is called Oasis
so I think
what we can expect
in the landscape
is that
since these
larger players
are coming in
and it's apparent
that they are not
just trying to come in
and build a game
and then just trying
to take a cut
of the cake
because I mean
there are a lot
of gaming companies
who are coming in
just to do that
just to build a game
and see okay
let's see
where is this going
to go.
even for one
of the largest
producers
in China
called NetEasy
they're actually
in there as well
but companies
like Square Enix
coming in
is actually
a really bullish
sign
of what people
actually in the
gaming industry
is looking at
the blockchain space
as since
building a chain
is not easy
it's not going
to build over time
at the same time
they are paying
different projects
a good sum
of the money
just to move
those projects
onto OAS
and at the same
time
building a quality
game is going
to take a huge
bunch of time
it's not
it's not going
to be as easy
as just building
some kind of
DApp
or whatever
it's going to
take them years
before they could
actually come up
with a good game
but during this time
it's up to us
smaller developers
to kind of
take a cut
in the market
be the first
movers
and they
wouldn't want
to see us fail
right
because they
would want
to see
how do we
do it
what are the
keys to success
how does the
market react
and what do
they have to do
in order to
penetrate the market
it's up to us
to kind of
look into the
market
and pave the
road for them
and in order
for us to do
these kind of
things
they would try
to kind of
push us
at the back
or give us
a tap
in the
shoulder
but these
are things
that we
should be
anticipating
and what
we should
expect as
well
so I
can't tell
what's going
to happen
in three
five years
it's just
I'm just
sharing some
observation
that we
see right
now in the
market
but yeah
I'm not sure
if I actually
answered a
question about
how what do
I what do
I see in
what do
landscape
or what do
I expect
because I
mean we
can't really
expect anything
at this time
but at least
there are
some factors
that we
should consider
I mean the
fact that you
actually mentioned
a lot of
big corporates
are spectating
the whole
industry
I think that's
already a
very bullish
sign because
when I
when someone
because I'm
from Australia
myself and
a lot of
the APAC
bigger company
like Tencent
Game you know
they wanted to
expand the
years bought
into Australian
landscape
they actually
got to us
we have a
marketing agency
we're providing
quite a lot
of services
you know
a very
fundamental
market research
that we're
sending back
to the bigger
corporate that
wanted to
start this
year spot
momentum
outside of
the Asia
region so
they're looking
to the
Australian
landscape
and one
thing that
I realise
is Asia
has always
been a
very centre
of the
and they
were
very
like
they're
testing
a lot
of different
ideas
a lot
of their
pioneer
testing
type
on-chain
blockchain
projects
not only
on DeFi
and GameFi
but for
example
right now
we have
social
for example
we have
physical
and plus
digital
integration
that is
going out
to the
market
right now
that is
something
that I
wanted to
discuss
a little
bit more
in terms
of the
bigger
player
and coming
into
GameFi
or perhaps
the on-chain
gaming
landscape
so what
do you
think
is the
benefit
that is
publisher
right
talking
about
publishers
you know
someone like
Funplus
someone like
from the
very Web2
nature
Web2
perspective
and from
Falco
which is
a Web3
publisher
and the
gaming studio
and the
player
perspective
so what
are the
benefits
that you
think
publishers
studio
player
enjoy
playing
games
on-chain
I don't
have any
comment
because
right now
we're not
a publisher
studio
and player
so I
wanted to
hear from
the four
of you
guys
I mean
you know
Apollo
you're always
the first
to go
do you
want to
take the
so what's
benefit of
the publishers
going on
right
yeah
from a
publisher
point of
view
because
Falco
the best
publisher
on Web3
thanks
well
actually
there's a
lot of
clamor
right now
from
Web2
studios
sorry
sorry to
keep
making
these
dichotomies
but there's
no differentiation
but for
the sake
of this
discussion
there are
a lot
studios
that hope
and want
to move
to Web3
but they
don't know
what they're
doing
right
so they
don't know
how to
what's
an NFT
what's
a mint
like
what is
a sale
like
how do
engage
with
community
how do
have
user
acquisition
because
we're
used
paid
Web2
right
what's
blockchain
tech
what's
a wallet
what's
an NFT
marketplace
things like
these
questions
like
these
what's
business
development
what's
sales
what's
token
sales
things like
that
game
design
Web3
how do
tokenize
which
game
assets
pertinent
and it
can be
game
breaking
pardon
the term
it's
very
crucial
right
publishers
are actually
publishers
like us
are in
the position
to guide
games
and moving
over
moving
them over
seamlessly
other than
as opposed
to hiring
their own
making their
own mistakes
they don't
have a
playbook
they have
to develop
their
playbook
but for
for Falco
we've
already
done
it for
Harvest
for example
and now
we're
replicating
it with
Sparkball
and we're
going to
replicate
it with
two more
games
by the
end of
this year
or next
year
right
so I
think it's
a lot
easier
there's
a lot
of trust
right now
as well
for folks
like us
because we
have decent
investors
like Justin
Khan
the co-founder
of Twitch
we have
different
other funds
maybe
investment
games
like
Animoca
a lot
of other
ones
I don't
want to
name drop
a lot
but basically
there's a lot
of trust
for the
games that
we have
we've
already
had the
traction
for it
we've
sold on
Fracto
and Binance
and all
that
right
and Web2
games will
be looking
like oh
I want to
do that
as well
and I
need an
ally
I need
somebody to
journey with
through this
as well
and there's
a lot
to gain
as well
right
it's
very
flexible
right
publishers
usually
how you
would
is that
there's
usually
you know
they either
share revenue
or there's
joint ventures
or something
but it's
generally
beneficial
for both
the games
and the
publishers
and overall
the players
right
then they
the games
that they
want
with the
good quality
and a
proper
launch
right
so it
ultimately
goes back
to that
value
that we
give to
the players
as well
yeah
because we
make sure
that their
mints are
successful
secure
bot free
with games
that are
well backed
and fun
most importantly
well
very fun
yeah
awesome
what about
from the
studio point
of view
coming from
Marcus
and Elon
yeah
go ahead
Elon
I think
you can
start
first
because
probably
come
into
perspectives
right
right
but I
actually
missed
question
sorry
can you
repeat
that
again
that's
all right
so the
question
what are
benefit
studio
building
their
games
chain
obviously
there
will
a lot
more
overhead
because
need
hire
more
free
talent
able
build
chain
what
real
benefit
that
studio
coming
from
perspective
it's
kind
repetitive
into
what
guys
have
already
answered
just
share
a couple
ideas
guys
don't
happy
move
next
questions
right
right
okay
I mean
I'll
come
from
more
monetary
perspective
like
basically
if you
looked
into
studios
usually
there
types
studios
like
would
basically
build
like
mean
happens
a lot
gaming
studios
people
just
kind
like
start
project
start
game
build
something
which
usually
half-assed
and then
they would
try to
find a
publisher
the publisher
would
then
like
fund
them
give
them
money
continue
building
game
then
publish
game
earn
money
from
game
that's
usually
flow
would
same
time
there
doers
like
course
some
people
just
rugged
when
wanted
chain
reasons
that
there
a lot
speculators
of course
at the
same
time
there
a lot
bullish
GameFi
gaming
there
also
people
investors
confident
that
GameFi
is going
to do
blockchain
good
because
it's
easiest
onboard
players
least
that's
what
bigger
players
think
therefore
whole
funding
process
is a
more
faster
than
traditional
gaming
market
it's
almost
like
times
speed
same
time
you're
basically
building
same
thing
chain
course
overhead
team
whole
economy
devs
stuff
mean
devs
basically
pretty
much
least
concerns
actually
mean
building
whole
economy
stuff
like
that
harder
part
like
money
kind
terms
things
does
make
sense
studios
build
chain
okay
sure
yeah
thank
APRON
also
jumping
into
this
space
think
monitoring
what
you're
saying
joking
Marcus
Jonathan
guys
have
additional
comment
other
than
from
Polo
Elon
yeah
maybe
I can
jump
there
many
many
advantages
game
studios
blockchain
mentioned
before
payment
that
standardized
around
world
second
royalties
fact
that
they
issue
NFTs
first
sales
then
when
players
sell
them
secondary
sales
market
then
they
commission
NFTs
which
created
brand
business
model
that
have
never
seen
before
will
blockchains
really
allow us
to be
very
creative
like
of course
it has
to remain
within
frame
regulation
of course
we can
very
creative
in terms
business
model
we can
create
memberships
you know
with
you are
able
create
brand
type
segmentation
communities
guilds
within a
game
example
using
NFTs
potentially
you have
donation
so it's
mentioned
raise
money
create
game
it's
easier
players
are also
able
to do
donation
buying
collections
so it
can be
token
it can
different
ways
like
mentioned
Oasis
Chain
Oasis
chain
just to
correct
it's
Square
Enix
Square
Enix
their
validators
so what
players
can do
is to
example
their
participation
in the
nodes
Square
Enix
this
something
that
exists
today
I would
I would
what
really
important
with
what
Unreal
Engine
recently
so in
Fortnite
they create
a brand
mode
that
allows
players
create
their
game
within
Fortnite
seems
like
small
update
fact
it's
really
brand
industry
that
we are
seeing
gaming
before
we had
download
games
to be
able
play
them
with
Fortnite
this new
version
Fortnite
you are
able to
play
games
within
game
which
a bit
what
definition
metaverse
when
games
like
Decentraland
sandbox
what
these
games
basically
let's
take
Decentraland
you have
90,000
plot of
lands
each
this
land
belongs
someone
land
piece
world
like
Decentraland
you have
basically
90,000
marketing
agencies
promoting
their
land
promoting
ecosystem
you see
for a
game
studio
game
publishers
to have
the players
on their
sides
building
the game
creating
user
generated
content
either
in the
game
outside
of the
game
because
they
modify
their
NFTs
provide
them
a way
bigger
radiation
for the
game
they can
reach
more
audiences
they
also
explore
brand
market
their
games
because
players
think
always
differently
from
game
studios
they
create
ways
promote
game
basically
what
with
blockchain
that
game
developer
before
game
world
game
developer
investors
players
three
different
types
people
today
with
blockchain
game
developer
investor
players
being
same
person
being
game
developer
player
investor
same
time
this
brand
know
have
seen
brand
ways
make
games
play
games
enjoy
games
also
games
becoming
much
more
than
just
games
check
look
example
Grand Theft Auto
the last
online
a lot
things
that
happen
within
game
social
it's
just
with
friends
things
with
friends
talk
chat
spend
time
with
your
friend
online
today
don't
have
actual
gameplay
it's
just
with
friends
share
time
together
usually
show
your
digital
items
like
t-shirt
something
like
that
want
show
your
friends
normal
games
this
asset
doesn't
belong
with
blockchain
belongs
yeah
many
benefits
these
just
some
them
reckon
actually
touched
based
things
that
really
wanted
talk
about
element
fact
that
talked
about
Unreal Engine 5
talk about
Fortnite
how they're
actually having
their own
creator
toolkit
allowing
not only
being a
player
but you're
also
becoming
creator
continue
building
your
storyline
your
gameplay
on top
Fortnite
that is
exactly
what the
Mario
editor
doing
you have
foundational
layer
most
basic
Mario
level
that you
play
Mario
gameplay
but you
create
your own
version
puzzles
create
your
challenges
invite
your
friends
come
play
this
something
we're
consistently
working
example
there
escape
room
Roblox
called
Door
it's
million
visits
that
particular
gameplay
built
inside
mansion
what
does
escape
room
literally
room
room
into
room
escape
shit
from
minute
five
minutes
minutes
hour
gameplay
very
strong
element
that
after
playing
room
that
built
community
also
Roblox
editor
like
creator
editor
toolkit
create
your
room
allowing
other
player
come
enjoy
your
gameplay
actually
make
money
that
particular
escape
room
gameplay
fantastic
in a
that
proven
success
because
strongly
support
what
Jonathan
saying
that
right
gameplay
slowly
wouldn't
slowly
it's
migrating
social
gameplay
you're
longer
playing
game
just
because
graphic
because
story
there
many
great
games
there
that
still
driving
fact
that
because
it's
good
graphic
it's
good
technology
for example
you've
that is
also
implementing
into
gameplay
right
think
especially
Web3
gaming
solely
driven
gameplay
sort
last
question
next
question
what
journey
that
transforming
Web2
gaming
into
Web3
Jonathan
touched
based
user
generated
content
which
element
that
you're
transforming
from
player
also
becoming
creator
what
your
perspective
journey
that
transforming
from
player
from
Web2
Web3
actually
also
touch
based
what
Jonathan
said
just
much
goosebumps
listening
that
because
come
from
generation
which
first
game
Warcraft 3
it's
literally
like
concept
where
they
give
Warcraft 3
editor
and you
create
your
games
this
kind
thing
think
Web3
it gives
much more
sustainability
because
when we
think
about
world
editors
whatnot
actually
there's
super
successful
games
these
games
came
from
user
community
building
them
themselves
and look
at where
they are
today
right
Warcraft
world
itself
there
wasn't
a lot
monetary
incentives
to make
content
creators
or map
editors
to continue
funding
themselves
because
ultimately
everyone
needs to
satisfy
their
responsibilities
and I
think
Web3
solved
this
giving
back
power
giving
back
little
money
creators
themselves
could
royalties
it could
a share
whatever
they
created
earns
imagine
how many
more
Dota
ones
would have
come out
and how
many
more
League
Legends
would have
come out
if all
those
producers
could earn
even
5 bucks
or 10
bucks
from the
games
that they
created
if people
wanted them
or even
donations
so I
think
this is
prime
time
where
Web3
steps in
and say
if the
game
you have
created
is good
if the
content
you have
created
is good
if the
is good
feel free
to just
donate
one dollar
or even
buy a
one dollar
skin on
the game
itself
and this
helps to
fund
the passion
of those
content
creators
or those
builders
and this
becomes
a very
good
flywheel
effect
for people
to keep
creating
and creating
and creating
and ultimately
you can see
a lot more
content
creators
and a lot
more map
producers
map editors
coming out
from the
Web3
itself
and essentially
this would
mean that
communities
and our
ecosystems
will be
much
much more
vibrant
in the
Web3
itself
which means
that players
like myself
can play a lot
more genres
and a lot
more games
because of
this effect
itself
so it's
totally like
a women's
situation
and as
from Era7
itself
we are also
making
CK Matter
in order to be
like a game
publisher
for like
we are essentially
going to be
the game
publisher
for Polygon
for all
APEC games
itself
and we want
to push
towards this
narrative
and this
vision
as well
because we
do believe
that if we
support the
community
and if we
stand by the
community
behind them
they will
in turn
flourish
and they
will in
turn
build a
greater
and a
better
ecosystem
for everyone
to play
I think
that's
fantastic
how we
are changing
from not
only enjoying
the gameplay
but also
changing from
a very
community
driven
because then
you actually
get the
word of
mail
you actually
get spread
hey this
game is
fantastic
we'll actually
play it
together
what about
from Elon
what about
from Polo
what is
your perspective
on the
change of
journey
from
web 2
gaming
into
web 3
any of
you guys
can open
I think
we've
covered a
lot already
but for
I think
just to
add on
the change
from web
2 to
web 3
as a
publisher
and as
a company
that has
we have
our own
game as
well
like the
harvest
it changes
a lot
not just
on the
financial
aspect
not just
on the
that's
certainly
there
not just
on ownership
not just
on trading
but also
in the way
we market
things
so for
example
in web
it's less
collaborative
IPs don't
always have
partnerships
with each
other
unless it
has to
be a
huge deal
but you
see in
terms of
user acquisition
it's a lot
easier for
web 3
because
it's just
a matter
of merging
communities
because it's
very community
driven
it's very
decentralized
so it's a
lot easier
to roll
people in
by the
use of
other
channels
for example
like discord
it's very
different
because back
then
currently
in web 2
you just
play and
that's it
but in web 3
you're given
a role
in the
community
you're given
a voice
to go
through
these
AMAs
with the
developers
themselves
right
because you
have a
hand on
things
right
you're
actually
you're
a buyer
of the
NFTs
and you're
more invested
you're more
motivated to
play and for
the game to be
successful
and so you're
more motivated
to do a
play test
you know
things like
that
right
you're more
invested in
the success
of the
games
essentially
because you're
empowered
by surrounding
you with
community
by hearing
your feedback
and also
because of
the purchases
right
so I think
with the
threes
it's
well
there's a lot
of similarities
there's a lot
of upgrade
as well
that we
enjoy
and I think
that's just
the start
I'm very
excited for
interoperability
I'm very
excited for
different IPs
merging
and doing
co-branding
stuff with
their assets
and yeah
I think
I'm going to
try that
with other
games here
because
they're my
friends as
well
but we'll
yeah
awesome
I think
you touched
base on
one thing
very interesting
is the
marketing
and community
side
so you
talk about
the co-partnership
and branding
so I think
in Web2
traditional
gaming
you just
have a
very strict
go-to
sort of
pipeline
you're not
even going
to collaborate
with any
NFT or
any DAOs
out there
to actually
test out
your gameplay
and I think
this is a
fantastic
ecosystem
that is
within the
Web3 space
is you
feel free
to open
source
with
like
Moonbird
you can
actually
open source
and collaborate
as long
as you
that
assets
what about
from a
gaming
perspective
sorry
from a
studio
perspective
Elon
do you
have
anything
to comment
other than
the guest
biggest
has already
mentioned
what are
the journey
that you
think
transformed
from Web2
to Web3
I'm talking
about a
customer
journey
for example
you can
talk about
infrastructure
you can
talk about
creating a
wallet
that is
something
different
sure
sure
sure
thing
I mean
a lot
guests
just
kind
touched
good
things
about
having
games
onto
Web3
how do
how do
transform
Web2
gaming
into Web3
gaming
I might
somewhat
pessimistic
at this
point
at this
moment
it's just
that
because
would
also
have
consider
whole
cycle
into
every
sector
within
finance
which
gaming
finance
kind
finance
as well
like
could
from
traditional
stock
market
let's
every
time
there
going
topic
like
whenever
there
uptrend
there's
downtrend
there's
always
macro
topic
even
different
industry
sectors
there are
always
different
trends
within
different
sectors
within
different
time
frame
these
kind
things
usually
only
last
couple
months
macro
view
uptrend
downtrend
course
it's
going
last
longer
usually
probably
around
eight
months
bull
market
bear
market
then
most
time
flat
market
right
flat
market
just
gaming
finance
also
cryptocurrency
as a
whole
course
stock
market
financial
market
everything
whole
finance
point
view
pretty
stale
moment
right
embrace
whole
gaming
thing
because
gaming
industry
always
been
really
huge
despite
whole
downtrend
within
financial
market
gaming
industry
itself
really
good
uptrend
it's
been
growing
30-40%
growth
year
which
crazy
name
another
industry
that
could
same
growth
rate
year
year
there
it's
possible
industry
exponentially
rapidly
gaming
industry
pulling
that
which
embraces
idea
that
gaming
something
that
people
really
need
gaming
companies
doing
really
good
monetizing
whole
thing
because
even
gaming
companies
Web 2
Web 3
monetization
most
important
part
do we
leverage
on this
could
ride
on the
Web 2
wave
I think
the best
way to
do it
right now
is to
build it
like a
Web 2
game
on-chain
there are
a lot
of things
that
the end
customer
doesn't
need to
know
at the
moment
because
sentiment
is not
best
right
term
NFTs
term
cryptos
cryptocurrencies
blockchain
these
kind
things
embraced
Web 2
gamers
they
just
Web 2
gamers
they
simply
want
something
that's
entertainable
that's
fun to
play
that is
what
they
need
that's
think
order
make
journey
from
Web 2
Web 3
is to
build
fundamentals
make a
great
game
that is
fun to
play
that's
enjoyable
player
doesn't
really
need
know
what
what's
behind
whole
technology
like
people
have
been
spending
tons
money
into
Web 2
games
that
to earn
games
people
spamming
100k
200k
into
mobile
games
just
because
they
wanted
progress
faster
right
I mean
these
known
facts
only
have
build
these
kind
things
there
going
chances
surface
know
what
actually
crypto
game
actually
have
wallet
with
want
export
your
seed
phrase
feel
free
here's
this
point
this
market
sentiment
think
should
focusing
building
great
game
that
play
just
market
what
game
time
deals
when
market
suitable
surface
here's
what
that
when
next
uptrend
going
come
100%
agree
that
because
think
only
gaming
finance
sector
whole
market
right
going
sideways
think
being
publisher
being
a top
leading
Web3
publisher
gaming
studio
well
player
that
already
been
engaged
very
involved
Web3
gaming
right
think
need
consider
ourselves
Web2.5
actually
move
whole
Web2
market
Web3
example
that
actually
lead
last
question
night
know
that
probably
time
next
question
that
wanted
into
exactly
what
were
mentioning
what
mechanics
that
actually
have
changed
over
time
from
building
Web2
game
into
Web3
Web3
what
Elon
mentioning
that
okay
we'll
build
Web2
game
just
like
Web2
experiences
it's
actually
chain
when
customers
when
player
experience
game
they
didn't
even
know
that
data
already
been
chain
just
enjoy
mass
adoption
this
exactly
what
trying
solve
into
general
public
your
normal
moms
pops
your
normal
teenage
lover
that
actually
going
real
life
escape
room
scenarios
what
have
done
differently
comparing
breaking
multi
businesses
created
replayability
level
created
something
that
different
from
Web2
Web3
because
breaking
multi
businesses
real
life
adventure
obviously
it's
different
from
video
gameplay
virtual
escape
room
gameplay
what
have
done
differently
have
building
system
that
allow
every
player
enjoy
their
journey
differently
even
though
play
same
game
twice
actually
enjoying
different
outcome
especially
you're
solving
puzzles
in a
group
you don't
play
in an
escape
room
yourself
usually
play
with
five
different
people
it's
your
journey
matter
what
you know
project
that
we're
building
system
terms
game
development
there's
so many
different
metaphors
that is
already
building
Unity
that is
actually
solving
fundamental
problem
that
we have
right
using
technology
that is
already
available
example
your
headset
your
right
we're
exploring
concept
actually
generating
game
content
that
available
player
escape
room
puzzle
solving
wanted
hear
from
guest
speaker
what
differently
that
being
used
game
mechanic
from
Web2
gaming
for example
from a
gaming
studio
perspective
Web2
gaming
into
Web3
because
Web3
obviously
what we
discussed
before
more
community
driven
there
differences
that
that
same
maybe
going
back
from
Elon
because
touch
base
Web2
Web3
like
sure
sure
from
mechanics
kind of
point
view
think
there
actually
huge
difference
between
this
this
balance
that
would
have
solve
because
like
mobile
games
there
really
important
aspect
where
keep
players
play
game
after
first
hour
gameplay
that
usually
when
download
a game
in the
first
hour
we're
trying
create
really
high
level
within
first
hour
level
them
really
quick
give
them
a lot
items
there
boxes
there
RNGs
there
things
there
some
packs
open
there
some
equipment
obtain
there
a lot
things
people
speed
really
fast
process
getting
people
into
game
because
they
getting
a lot
things
within
first
hour
same
time
still
have
consider
economy
side
things
game
largest
thing
that
whole
thing
balanced
can't
give
tokens
can't
give
equipment
free
just
because
download
game
wanted
lure
stay
into
honeypot
that
isn't
reason
give
many
things
because
giving
many
things
economy
going
collapse
this
major
thing
that
would
have
consider
it's
easy
there
reason
web2
pay2
earn
games
making
this
kind
aspect
this
kind
approach
tackle
this
can't
give
many
things
tackle
this
this
first
problem
second
problem
earn
game
always
starts
with
free
play
game
don't
have
nfts
don't
need
cryptos
then
solve
this
right
cannot
like
times
where
other
games
past
games
kind
fails
because
there
entry
barrier
anyone
just
come
sign
into
account
earn
things
again
comes
back
economy
again
like
people
easy
account
assets
easily
accessible
you're
going
attract
bunch
farmers
with
those
farmers
there's
going
selling
precious
there
much
demand
within
game
there
many
things
that
people
would
have
spend
back
their
assets
into
most
likely
then
tackle
this
these
different
mechanics
between
what
three
space
there
solid
answers
at the
moment
because
Axie
has done
a really
good
basically
he's
the only
right
that
been
sustainable
learn
from
Axie
modify
their
model
build
something
better
that
question
solve
100%
think
when it
comes
down
changing
mechanic
it's
coming
from
economic
what
about
from
publisher
point
view
there
anything
different
that
guys
have
done
differently
in terms
game
mechanic
in terms
game
development
from
gaming
into
yeah
sure
well
like
Marcus
said
earlier
really
replicate
much
possible
what
experience
right
because
we're
just
adding
on a
layer
which
ownership
tokenizing
assets
we're
actually
sticking
to the
tried
and true
game
economics
right
but we're
adding
like what
Elon
cautioned
against
we're
adding
on the
layer
blockchain
limited
supply
which
something
as a
gamer
never
really
thought
before
right
we're
balancing
those
well
right
we're
balancing
because
helped
co-design
these
things
we're
balancing
supply
we're
balancing
you know
what is
inflationary
what is
deflationary
to avoid
mishaps
Axie
and the
other
games
that were
like that
right
with regards
to the
structure
but apart
from that
it's
really
that
different
what we're
learning
really
making
frictionless
right
we're
going
away
with
these
seed
phrase
logins
with
better
mask
logins
you know
we'll
be creating
non-custodial
wallets
for you
instead
things like
that
right
this is
the more
that we
bridge
the gap
and the
more
that we
make
technology
invisible
I think
that's
really
when we
could
and we're
already
doing
that
example
we're
already
doing
that
as well
and we're
already
getting
affirmations
even from
the web
audience
right
like for
example
next
next month
when we're
hosting that
tournament
we have
coming
playing the
game
and I
think
liquid
as well
and hopefully
several other
more esports
teams
I mean
there are
some
but I
can't
rename
them
that's
really
example
making
frictionless
by giving
them
great
gains
that
people
that
their
esports
team
that
they
love
actually
also
play
and love
as well
and that
really
inspires
wannabe
esports
players
maybe
Marcus
can pick
it up
as well
but yeah
thank you
Paula
Marcus
do you
want to
pick up
what Paula
just
mentioned
yeah
so I
think
in terms
esports
itself
essentially
what it
said
is true
there is
a lot
of similarities
other than
the blockchain
layer
itself
sustainable
games
that are
still
sustaining
and still
surviving
web 2
world
essentially
is the
same
what
web 2
counterpart
what I
mean
by that
it's
just
extra
layer
itself
what he
touched on
esports
is also
another
layer
something
that
traditional
web 2
esports
lacked
to not
elaborate too
much
essentially
in the
traditional
web 2
world
itself
there was
a lot
payout
issues
like when
I won a
tournament
in Las Vegas
I got
double tax
twice
it took
years
for my
payment
to be
processed
Blizzard
had a
delay
and there
was a lot
paperwork
to be
done
what
we can
web 3
world
essentially
to add
smart
contracts
and to
help
pay out
players
so that
they have
that
little
financial aid
that they
actually want
something
they don't feel
that they got
rugged
in that sense
as well
and to touch
on rugged
itself
we have
saw a lot
of big
tournaments
they just
said they're
going to
pay out
$50,000
$100,000
half a
and then
when the
payout
actually
happened
they just
went
or they
declared
themselves
bankrupt
or they
say they
the gamers
and that
is so
demotivating
for all
the esports
teams
that were
trying
their hardest
to win
the tournament
and they
spent thousands
of hours
to practice
and then
they spent
3-4 hours
a night
to practice
and to
make
screams
and whatever
this
blockchain
layer
itself
protects
the players
themselves
from such
rucks
and also
helps them
to get
payout
and also
right now
the payouts
in blockchain
cannot just
be USD
you can
denominated
in USDT
in the
tokens
in NFTs
or whatever
and that's
I guess
the beauty
of it
it helps
not just
the gamers
but also
it helps
the game
studios
provide
liquidity
in a sense
that they
can pay
out in
NFTs
they can pay
out in
the tokens
and this
is a lot
of financial
burden
on game
studios
and it
provides
a lot
of liquidity
and incentive
for players
to keep
gaming
and to
keep
participating
as well
awesome
thank you
what about
Jonathan
I actually
just
Jonathan
before you
come in
and share
your last
comment on
the last
question
I actually
checked up
our audiences
one of our
key listeners
is called
Ubi Long
and apparently
they provide
liquidity
on the
web-free
gaming
by the way
all the
audiences
if you guys
have any
questions
feel free
to put up
your hand
so I can
give you guys
the mic
after Jonathan
has shared
his last
perspective
on the
last
question
which is
what is
the game
mechanic
that you
differently
when it
comes to
web 2
and web 3
yeah
sure
so I would
like just to
remind everyone
that we are
still at the
very early
stage of
blockchain
gaming
so in
web 2
we have
games
with
millions
of players
per day
like daily
active users
but for
blockchain
games
the biggest
game
I feel like
maybe a
hundred
of thousand
two hundred
thousand
players per
I mean
in current
market
so we're
still in
a very
early
stage
there is
a lot
march
growth
and usually
what I
say to
game
studios
that wants
to go
into
web 3
because it's
quite a risky
business
but also
to sustain
the game
it's what
you mentioned
is if you
remove the
blockchain
part of
the game
will players
still play
the game
and this
is really
an important
question to
because then
you discover
that in
fact in
today
communities
of gamers
you have
two types
of players
you have
speculators
and you
have core
gamers
and usually
they don't
like each
other
so you
have a lot
of games
last year
that have
been built
on speculators
audiences
and when
the price
of the
assets
went down
these players
left
and so
the game
were like
we had to
shut down
basically
and on the
other side
on web 2
worlds
and this is
what now
we are trying
a new wave
we see a new
wave of games
coming up
and I think
era 7
did a great
job at
this
is to
really attract
core gamers
so gamers
that come
here
they play
the game
and they
don't even
look at
the price
they see
the market
going up
down
they don't
care
they just
play
in fact
some
interesting
also data
from the
blockchain
game
alliance
report
that we
beginning
of the
year
was that
after the
collapsed
and the
market
crashed
on-chain
activity
of players
increased
especially
for the
top 10
games
so it
means that
the player
didn't care
about the
price of
the assets
they were
just there
to play
the game
and if
they made
money out
of the game
that was
just a
bonus
it was
just a
plus
yeah
so I
would say
this is
very important
and also
this is
what we
call
web 2.5
games
the fact
that
last year
we had
a lot
web 3
games
with
everything
on-chain
it was
very slow
you had
a lot
transactions
it was
very
complicated
and now
we have
more
web 2.5
games
where it's
web 2
games
you don't
even know
it's a
blockchain
game
and then
you have
all these
assets
on the
side
you see
something
I also
blockchain
game
company
web 2
game
company
that wants
to go
into
web 3
because
it's a
very risky
business
especially
for successful
games that
want to
go into
web 3
is to
really do
a lot
consulting
of course
to really
ask people
around
in the
industry
is to
start with
something
simple
like just
to add
a blockchain
payment
to your
game
just that
don't
even try
to add
a chain
or something
just add
payment
through
blockchain
which is
increasing
by the
around
world
usage
blockchain
as a
payment
increasing
steadily
you can
check
Argentina
America
Asia
it's
increasing
because
this
country
needs
because
inflation
issue
with
payment
system
so when
you see
traction
with
payment
in the
game
through
blockchain
that you
know
that your
audience
is ready
blockchain
nobody
uses
payment
through
blockchain
then you
are maybe
too early
maybe your
audience
is not
the right
fit for
blockchain
games
and you're
at this
moment
and later
see if
it works
if you
traffic
if you
volumes
people
using
blockchain
games
with
voucher
stuff like
that
they use
cryptocurrencies
they buy
voucher
they redeem
in the
game
then you
can start
to do
collection
collectibles
so they
are not
related to
the games
they are
just
collectibles
about the
game
that you
store
in your
wallet
just
because
you're
a fan
of the
game
it's
linked
game
it's
very
important
because
when you
have to
actually
add a
chain
to your
game
then it
starts to
be a
business
it will
take a
lot of
time
a lot
money
maybe you
have to
change
chain
you would
have to
multi
chain
it's
a very
complex
thing
when you
are in
I would
it's
a bit
late
you have
to do
something
about it
it's way
harder
to modify
it's
also
what I
recommend
is to
start
small
don't
try to
do a
huge
metaverse
and so
with your
first game
start
small
look at
what
board
with
donkey
dash
it's a
very
simple
game
and they
really
succeeded
to attract
a lot
of their
audience
around
this
simple
game
that was
just
a try
but just
by this
they were
able to
all the
different
aspects
that the
blockchain
needs
the token
the NFTs
the wallets
the gas
fees
everything
because it's
so complex
that you
need to
have some
test
sandbox
first
and then
based on
that you
can build
a sound
version
that is
bigger
and bigger
these are
recommendations
to avoid
difficulties
I reckon
that's actually
a really
really good
comment
the fact
that you
first
mentioned
stripped
down
all the
free
element
and to
actually
just
looking at
the game
itself
the fact
that you
bring up
statistics
saying that
when the
whole market
collabs
there are
actually
more users
are still
enjoying
gameplay
so that
is already
a significant
successful
matrix
that is
out there
and then
you add
on a lot
of elements
for example
you first
look at
the payment
system
how do we
actually bring
a lot of
cross-border
payment
to build
the infrastructure
of the
or the
game file
perhaps
the web
and then
obviously
a lot more
element
on top
and I
think that's
really good
perspective
thank you
Jonathan
for that
for all
the audiences
out here
do we
have any
questions
if you
guys do
either feel
free to
message all
the guest
speaker
follow their
page
fantastic
guest speaker
coming from
publisher
from studio
from associations
and I think
this is a
great way to
connect
we actually
have a lot
of blue
tick listeners
here
so we
have
we have
you know
I think
Yubi
Yubi
Long
if you
want to
open mic
feel free to
come in
and actually
speak to
the guest
speaker
we actually
run out
of time
but I
think
I think
this is a
very great
session
and I'm
going to
record it
and every
month we're
going to do
ERM lab
is actually
going to
publish
all the
a summary
of all
the AMA
that we
have
collectively
in a
summary
so you
guys can
actually
read it
in a
word
like in
normal
like report
format
does all
the guest
speakers here
have any
last comment
to make
or otherwise
should we
conclude this
I think
this is a
fantastic
discussion
around why
games should
be building
on chain
and what
are the
use cases
for players
and businesses
does anyone
have any
last
I don't want
to say
last word
because it
sounds so
yeah maybe
just to
mention that
you're not
alone
so if you
are looking
for people
around you
to discuss
what is
the blockchain
game identity
there
we will be
consensus
Austin
and then
we will
be at
most of
the biggest
convention
for blockchain
and we will
be also
gamescom
Tokyo
game show
Singapore
token
2049
and so on
and me
myself
I'm hosting
events in
Japan
Philippines
Vietnam
so you
can follow
me on
Twitter
or on
LinkedIn
and you
will see
the next
event
where you
can meet
community
awesome
I reckon
is actually
really
fantastic
I need
to do
a lot
collaboration
with you
guys
down in
future
gameplay
is coming
on the
sandbox
in July
in alpha
season 4
so looking
forward for
that
we're going
to do
a lot
collaboration
with all
the gaming
studio
here
does
Polo
Elon
Marcus
have
last
word
share
otherwise
I mean
we can
yeah
yeah
yeah
so like
share
just
thanks for
having us
here
for those
who are
here
so again
this is
from
Falco
one of
games
is called
The Harvest
you can
look us
up at
falco.tg
or theharvestgame.com
or follow the
posts from this
account
and yeah
keep
updating
awesome
awesome
thank you
Polo
Elon
and Marcus
do you guys
have any
last
concluding
word
please
yeah
again
thanks for
having me
here again
it's
my pleasure
always an
honor to
be here
of course
we still
have to
show it
a bit
so we
have our
season 2
coming up
on June
it's going
to be
pretty
interesting
with a lot
of different
things packed
into the
same season
we're going
to have a
skill mint
feature
which I
don't think
we have
that in
the past
in other
games
so it's
going to
be fun
includes
a lot
of RNG
and luck
element
of course
with a lot
of skills
as well
and at the
same time
there might
be some
token airdrops
coped with
the game
playing the
game would
not be
the only
criteria of
getting any
airdrops
but I mean
the quantity
and details
are not out
yet but
if you are
interested in
our game
I would
recommend you
to just
download our
game right
log into
our season
and try
to try
it out
get some
tokens
so we do
have some
off-chain
token
within our
season one
the token
is going to
be super
super useful
within our
season two
we're going to
release more
information
there is
actually a
medium article
that I just
shared
which would
give you
sufficient
information
for the
season two
not entirely
covering
everything
but it's
going to be
a good
read
read the
medium
try our
game out
and you'll
be thankful
with that
that you
yeah
awesome
appreciate it
I've always
been following
you guys
I reckon
because I've
seen the
live demo
in Thailand
Genesis
blockchain week
and I was
really fantastic
I had a
really good
conversation
with your
co-founder
as well
yeah
thank you
for that
what about
Marcus
do you
have
anything
to share
yeah
so I
guess
my turn
to show
as well
if you
guys are
interested
in trading
card games
itself
have a look
at Era 7
we are
essentially
just a
hyper casual
game
and I guess
part of our
success
like what
Jonathan said
is also
because
of us
being a
hyper casual
game
and a
HTML5
game
meaning that
you can
play on
your mobile
and a lot
of players
I think
a huge
large
a huge
base of our
players don't
even own
NFTs
in Era 7
itself
and I guess
that's the
beauty of
gaming itself
because a
game should
be always
a game
and essentially
we are
since we
come from a
web tool
company primarily
and Era 7
is our first
proof of concept
game to see
if Web3
technology works
and now that
we know
there's some
degree of
success to it
we are going
to try and
onboard more
Chinese and
APEC games
into the
Web3 world
via our
ZK Meta
platform itself
so feel free
to follow
ZK Meta
feel free to
follow Era 7
and you can
stay tuned
for like
the next
game in
the pipeline
is probably
coming out
at the end
of this
year
and we
hope to
see you
there
and I
guess
a tiny bit
of alpha
is that
we want
to be
rewarding
Era 7
player base
so like
we might
or might
not drop
something
for the
loyal players
that have
been playing
Era 7
for the
longest time
ever
so yeah
I'm going
to RS3P
on all the
games that
you guys
have here
just so I
can get on
the first
line
first line
otherwise
you guys
have way
too many
people
lining up
we do
have a
guest speaker
coming up
which I
have been
mentioning
it's called
Ubi Long
do you want
to open
mic and ask
us anything
sure
absolutely
can you guys
hear me
thank you so
much for
your sharing
today
I've been
seeing quite
a few
familiar faces
here so
that's why
I've been
joining the
audience
I think
it's very
important
for all of
you guys
who have
said
that
currently
we're
trying to
onboard
the Web2
gamers
to the Web3
which is a
long journey
of course
100% agree
but we're
still working
on that
and plus
you know
I think
Harvard Scan
and also
April have
mentioned
they have
been
quite a few
updates
within their
own ecosystem
and plus
we are
collaborating
on a thing
called
Burn2Learn
which is
to me
I think
it's a
fantastic
you know
innovation
or idea
which is
so basically
you can
burn your
unused
or technically
rocked
NFT from
previous
you know
the GameFi
bullish
market
which you
can burn
all of
these NFT
in exchange
for example
the NFTs
and also
the wireless
for April
and Harvard
Game
so that's
the thing
I'm trying
to tell
guys here
just if
you have
any NFTs
just burn
it to
the black
hole
if you
don't
you know
you can
complete
all the
quests
that's
100%
fine
you know
again
April and
Harvard
Game
all supplied
you know
some of
their prices
to the
treasury
which
deeply
appreciated
for the
support
from
April
Harvard
Game
so that's
it for
I can't
believe
there's
audiences
coming out
open
mug and
appreciate
all the
games
that we
have
here
that's
great
all good
thank you
for your
sharing
we will
definitely
check out
more
did you
burn
earn
burning
mint
a new
yeah
that's
kind of
like
trade-off
it's
a bargain
trade-off
basically
if we
have
like
NFTs
from
let's
it's
there's
a game
called
Crypto
Mines
Legends
Theta
Arena
you know
those
star
so-called
unicorn
games
from
last
you know
bull
market
which
kind
you know
some
them
still
operation
wait
did I
drop
drop
think
okay
that's
okay
yeah
I think
dropped
think
thank you
sharing
actually
need
okay
requests
again
here
right
didn't
even
your
name
sorry
what
your
name
again
Steve
right
cool
guys
yeah
yeah
sorry
drop
anyways
will
just
finish
sentence
here
basically
if you
have
previous
NFTs
all of
them
like
them
basically
went
value less
to be
honest
then
what we
here
we're
trying
really
know
them
into
another
where
they
can't
just
your
wallet
forever
they
can't
just
become
trash
it's
kind
proof
where
you're
actually
participating
in the
journey
three
gaming
whether
it's
so-called
ponzi
whether
it's
play
earn
you know
that's
the process
we have
go through
in order
to really
onboard
you know
more and
more users
we do
value
commitment
and also
money
you put
into
industry
support
kind
have
idea
where
burn
unused
value
less
exchange
tokens
plus
some
prices
from
such
Harvest
Game
Apron
Project
Second
Life
blah
blah
blah
you know
there's
many more
projects
involved
this
campaign
I think
we definitely
need to
have a
separate
conversation
with you
guys
because
majority
of our
gameplay
will issue
based on
puzzles
solving
clearances
of an
escape
room
some
users
they're
going
into
world
check
I've
got a
certificate
clearing
escape
room
right now
probably
Texas
right
there's
definitely
a lot
collaboration
between
gameplay
your
burning
mechanism
actually
exchange
other
passes
perhaps
to go
to play
a beta
version
or a
season 2
version
April
perhaps
another
ticket
that I
what
listed
harvest
definitely
collaboration
between
ERM Labs
and yourself
we're getting
connected
thank
you for
sharing
by the
think
definitely
went
over
time
really
appreciated
audiences
that
stayed
till
guys
have
questions
specific
guest
speaker
feel free
follow
them
them
harass
them
much
them
many
questions
feel
free
follow
will
have
next
upcoming
talk
about
infrastructure
thank
guys
appreciate
guest
speaker
will
talk
offline
thank
guys
cheers
thank
thank
thank
