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Why proof of ownership on-chain?
Recorded: May 8, 2025 Duration: 1:03:42Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, key players in the crypto space explored groundbreaking advancements in tokenizing real-world assets, including a partnership with the Bank of Bangladesh to digitize land registries. The conversation highlighted the potential for NFTs in real estate, the importance of transparency in blockchain applications, and the exploration of a collateral-backed digital currency, signaling significant growth and innovation in the sector.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Hello, hello.
Hello.
Hey, John.
Hey, Michael.
Oh, there I go.
How are you, Robbie?
I'm great. I'm great. Another Thursday. How are you? Oh, good I go. How are you, Robbie? I'm great.
I'm great.
Another Thursday.
How are you?
Oh, good, good.
OK, great.
I'll give it a few minutes for people to join.
Yep. it's what about 10 o'clock there where you are robbie uh here it's 9 p.m 9 p.m okay writes to Cryptoken Board.
Hey, Cryptoken Board, how are you?
Oh, okay. I'm unmuted now.
Wonderful. How are you guys doing? Happy Thursday.
Thank you very much.
Nice to meet you, actually.
It's a pleasure. John, we're making Thursday famous again yeah this Friday thing's
overrated you know it's all about Thursday
well thank you so much
for joining as well
in our weekly spaces
like every week we have
different topics.
This week, as you mentioned, we'll discuss
building the future of RWAs, real-world assets,
with Geek, and then tokenizing estate registries,
showcasing some Geek game-changing RWA technology, technology for example but i think it might be interesting
as well uh from you guys crypto board crypto token board um to see like who are you what are
you guys up to um i think let's start with this as an introduction to the audience okay thank you
so much for that question um yeah i'll tell you really really quick
about me i am now living in toronto ontario i'm originally from serbia but i attended kenyan
college in ohio so i was an international student and then i spent most of my young
my young professional life in working in traditional finance.
I was a fund accountant, and then I got an analyst job at BlackRock.
So now I'm kind of famous myself, to be honest with you.
I was at BlackRock for about five years until crypto came along,
and then there was just maybe a higher calling, I suppose,
that I wanted to do something
that we actually already built.
So at Cryptoken Board, we have a basic dashboard
that tracks in real-time R-based statistics.
So we did not invent anything.
These are basic statistical packages
that come off in our program.
So we're kind of doing that.
And just lastly, I will say we secured a client an rfp
for bank of bangladesh oh that's amazing yeah and so and part of their consulting group wants to set
up a project where they're going to digitize they actually want to use blockchain and they have a
white paper and it's pretty sweet but
they essentially want to digitize their cadastro and and this is why I want to
ask John some questions because from what I understand the only reason
they're doing this is for tax collections so maybe just we can focus
the today just on general topics whatever you guys want to talk
about i know you guys are some on the other part of the world so thank you if it's late man i
really appreciate that because my brain is dead after four o'clock p.m doesn't sound like it but
so they're so why don't you tell me what are they trying to do? So they have, I suppose, some sort of register where they have people's land titles or something equivalent to that stored.
And they're wanting to bring this. I mean, it's literally digital already. What is it they believe they're getting when they add blockchain?
believe they're getting when they add blockchain. So this is a lovely topic because if I'm not next
to my computer, I'm virtually useless. But now when I pull up the white paper and I can just
really just read what they wanted. But me, I'm actually not been in blockchain for three years.
I've seen everything from Ethereum to, you know, even the Bitcoin fork wars were awesome. 2019,
Even the Bitcoin fork wars were awesome.
2019, that's what I kind of got into it.
Really interested because Bitcoin Cash just forked.
That was kind of cool.
So I kind of know without them having to tell me what we need to apply.
And I just, then I've been involved with Stephanie.
It's been amazing growing your community on Twitter, which is really cool.
And I just, from having listened to
you guys you know just connecting two dots i think what we can do is just essentially
do a full asset tokenization and then use nfts as means of of land ownership so i don't like to put
any like names on things but the process itself is being
able to tokenize it and then i like geek because it's a super light blockchain it effectively would
be kind of like the technical questions we can do like in the second part of the hour or whatever
but just not having smart contracts and then being able to separate compute from data is essential. I just have no use for any, I don't want to offend anybody.
EVMs have their own use, but for any sort of real world application,
I have no use for Ethereum,
nor anything that settles transactions on behalf of a consensus
that I don't agree with in the first place.
Let me teach you something.
Here in Tennessee,
when we say a thing like that, we always start with bless their heart.
Bless their heart. Bless their heart.
No, I agree with you. I mean, to me, there are a couple of things there that are just
key if you're going to really do a tokenization that people would in any way trust
you know one of them the i think the most glaring one is that if i if i can't actually see uh whatever
it is that's being tokenized if i can't see the nft if i can't actually have it live in a place
that's non-manipulable and is accessible,
then it's just a trust layer.
It's just I'm taking your word.
Somewhere, somehow in a Merkle tree, in a smart contract that I don't understand,
there's a reference to something else that's stored in another place
that I might or might not have data accessibility to
that tells me something i mean that's that's far too many steps far far completely untransparent
and you know i that sounds like a sucker's game to me uh this you're you're asking to be uh to
be ripped off the transparency number one got to be transparent it's got to be something that
anybody can understand and see now john i have a follow-up question because i have a stephanie and
i spoke uh had a chance to meet uh when you talk about transparency is the different from trust
because there are a couple of different nodes they will will have to be in place. I think a listener node and then the original validation.
Yeah.
Well, no.
So you don't have to have a listener node.
You could have a listener node.
There are all kinds of ways that you can discover information.
But one of the features that we have is that, so number one, the act of publishing an NFT,
it's literally on the chain. It's not in a off-chain smart contract state.
So there's literally the text of what it is
that describes whatever is being tokenized.
That information is really there and it's available
to whatever extent the chain is available.
But there's one step that goes beyond that.
And that is that we have these things called durable proofs of inclusion.
And what they allow you to do is they give you a Merkle proof that lets you take that home, put that in your pocket, you know, short, it's a kilobyte or two.
And then you can show that at any point you don't have to have access to the blockchain afterwards if the question
is do you own this thing and pull out this two kilobytes and it's it's a cryptographic proof
that this nft is something that belongs to you and you can't hide it, you know, so not only is it
transparent on the blockchain, once it's there, you can take it and put it in your pocket
and then it's there. It's yours forever.
Okay, that is really interesting. Okay. Now this is different from, I suppose my question would be just as a user, I reviewed a different e-registers. Like in Serbia, we actually programmed, we have a new legislation. A lot of the digital services have been moved online. We're just going to use geek. But the way they had it, they had essentially a public portal and then they had a private user.
had it they had essentially a public portal and then they had a private user so my goal would be
essentially just to replicate that landing page there might just i don't have full grasp of how
would the public portal work in terms of blockchain connectivity i don't know maybe stephanie has like
a idea how would essentially the front interface where everything is public and available be then?
Hi again.
So nice to hear you talking here.
I think there are lots of ways to do it, of course.
But one of the things they could do is just have a
block explorer available for public reading. And then, John, we talked about a listening
node just to make sure that there was some accountability outside of the government. I
think that's a good idea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So really, the number of places where you make things easily accessible is really an application decision.
It's a design decision.
It doesn't affect the security.
Yeah.
I mean, you could go to, you know,
gov.org or something like that, and they could give you the information, or you go to a private
information broker, or you could go, you could run your own listening note if you really
care about this a great deal. So there's lots of ways. And again, the point I'm trying to make is
that unlike a government register, where they just have to close off access and that's it, they can alter it.
You don't know what was, you know, you can't really prove what it said before they altered it.
This creates the trust because, or I shouldn't say it creates the trust.
It precludes the need for trust because once you say a thing, you can't unsay it.
If I own a thing, I own a thing. And you can't say, oh, we made a mistake. It's not. We're going
to rewrite your deed and now you don't own it. It's there and how you find out about it,
it has to evolve because as you point out, you don't want to put computation on the chain. The chain is data, and the data is what's inalterable.
And how you look at it and what you do with it, well, that moves all the time.
And so we can move with that.
That's exactly.
Thank you for saying that in a technical sense.
But that would essentially be the first major rollout as a pilot program we will have the
entire cadastro broken down into divisions and then and then principal ownership and then the
second part would be engaging the user base and having everyone register right so once the initial
setup the initial uh roadmap or uh map would be put for the entire country of Bangladesh.
I guess that's why I'm relying on Geek.
How would then Geek be, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate,
but how would then Geek be more efficient in terms of data transparency and
storage?
So more efficient.
So that's
depends on what you mean.
What we're really aiming for is
data transparency and
trustless security.
And it's efficient
because you're not
really trying to store
all that much data
on the chain.
That's stuff that is you're not really trying to store all that much data on the chain. That's stuff that is, I mean, you're not trying to run an entire, you know, governmental database.
You're trying to run a point of information attachment so that you can get the relevant details that you can then throw into your tax system or your permitting system or a thousand other bureaucratic things that you might want to
do with the title.
You definitely do not want to do with a smart contract.
That's the idea.
There's a famous, I think it was Truman who said, what I really want is a one-handed economist
because they always say on the one hand, on the other hand. So, so to be really material. Yeah, exactly that you, you,
you have a way of a portal. It looks just like another government portal.
You can put your data in,
you can do transfers in whatever way is most convenient through to the
application, whatever is conventional understood UI UX that everybody expects.
is conventional, understood, the UI UX that everybody expects. And all of that, no matter
what you want to do, can attach to the back end of the blockchain through an API. You
shouldn't really know that you're on a blockchain, except that you do have this ability to walk
away with something that you can prove, despite what a bureaucrat may wish to be the truth.
prove despite what a bureaucrat may wish to be the truth.
And then just one more nerdy question, if I may indulge myself.
John, thank you. That was very good information.
I'm writing everything down because that's the only way I'll click on back.
But there's a piece of text that is being amended.
there's a piece of text that is being amended.
The next block will then include the same hash
with different information?
Well, so it depends upon your business process.
We're very flexible.
So again, I'm going to stop being flexible.
You want something to create.
So let me ask you a question.
Yes, absolutely.
So what is it this, I'm trying to get up, what is trying to be accomplished? So let's suppose that I question. Yes, absolutely. So what is it this I'm trying to get up what is trying to be accomplished.
So let's suppose that I own a piece of property.
I suppose these are things like title to a parcel of farmland or something.
Okay.
I suppose.
I mean, you tell me.
It could be commercial farmland.
I think that would be the first thing these guys would be interested in because demand for food and natural resources is high.
So I assume first application would be to commercialize large parts of the because they're going to be buying their rice from Bangladesh now, especially with what's happening in that part of the world.
Okay, so we've got these titles to whatever the well defined pieces of land that the government has set up, divided it up how it wants.
And there may be ownership that predates that.
So the first swipe at it would simply be
whatever data the record has to hold
to describe ownership and describe the property,
that would be the text of the NFT.
And you could have a verbose approach.
I'm sorry, go ahead.
No, thank you.
That's very, very, okay.
Go on.
Okay.
And then the verbose approach would be to have that data actually in the app.
We have this, you probably know, we have a two-layered blockchain. We've got the validation layer, which is very tight, very small,
and just has sort of mechanical bits that trace ownership and transfer assets and things.
And then we've got this application layer, which is fairly static,
which is fairly static and is really the job of that is to store data that is referenced in the,
from the validation layer. So in that application layer NFT, you could have several kilobytes of
data, even several tens of kilobytes if you wanted to structure it that way, that describes the property, describes the ownership,
you know, in a verbose legalistic way,
or according to some, you know, schema
that you could decipher with whatever,
whatever the Bangladeshi government is doing currently
is what we probably want to replicate
because there's no reason to make them change.
You know, the less verbose way would be
to have a hash reference to something that is stored someplace else that's another way to go um now you mentioned you you
thought about doing this on stacks uh as opposed to winfts uh yeah i i i do have a a side project
that is specific to the the crypt token board that one we're definitely
going to use stacks for but that is not related to this specific specific one sorry um sorry if
yeah so we will not do that so what i would suggest is this actually so you're trying to establish ownership through owning this NFT.
A danger, perhaps it's a danger, I don't know, is that if I have a title to my house that's in one of my crypto asset accounts,
it is possible I could lose my keys because people are stupid and people are careless and all kinds of things happen.
I've lost keys. Or it could be that somebody,
you know, I'm careless and my ne'er-do-well son comes and steals my house from me.
You know, all of those things could happen. So a way to ensure that that may, to protect yourself,
maybe a way to do this would be to make it a rule that all of these NFTs have to be held in two of two multi-signature accounts.
And the two signatures would be the land register, the government of Bangladesh, and whoever owns it.
So if I want to make a transfer, I have to have permission of the government to transfer it.
They have to acknowledge it. They have to register it. But they can't take my land away from me
because it's a two of two signature. So I have to agree that it's going to go to somebody else.
I have to sign a transaction that specifically transfers it to one particular other party.
Government has to concur. And so now we're protected, you know, neither one of us, it takes both of us to
screw up before something happens. And it kind of makes sense because governments really do have to,
their business is to protect titles and to enforce titles. So it kind of does make sense that they,
they have to agree and register the fact of a title transfer.
Register the fact of a title transfer.
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.
Now, I just wanted to one more time, maybe ask if there is a change.
Let's say there's not a complete transfer of ownership, but let's say like, you know, there's
a. You break up a piece of land into two parcels and one parcels will be sold.
Can we just amend the NFT for a certain balance or for a certain piece of metadata that's going to, that's just going to essentially reflect the change that we no longer have a one big square, but it's just two parcels?
Well, so that's an interesting question.
Part of it is a business process there you know you if you're if you if you have a legal structure that lets you
do that through some mechanism then yeah we could probably design a uh you know a a cryptic
a cryptographic structure that that reflected that but me, the most obvious way to do that is,
you know, a piece of land is a piece of land for a reason. You know, it's sold that way.
It's zoned that way. And typically, if I want to break that piece of land up,
I do have to get government permission to do it. I can't build two houses on my property.
I do have to get government permission to do it.
I can't build two houses on my property.
And so I have to have permission to break it into a legally separate piece of property
because otherwise the deed, if I try to sell it, for example, wouldn't cover just one half of it.
Even a physical deed exists only to cover a described piece of land.
So you'd have to have the government split the land,
reissue a pair of deeds,
and then sell those deeds separately.
And that's easily accomplished.
So I say, well, look, I'd like to have,
I'd like it had rezoned as two pieces.
So here, I'll sign these deeds over to the government,
and then the government will assign me to new deeds as NFTs.
That to me is probably how it fits in the legal structure currently, as far as I'm aware.
But yeah, you could develop a degree of automatic fungibility if that really was the thing that you desired.
Okay, just positive feedback.
Yeah, that really helped explain how we would go from one NFT, then you would parcel up
have almost kind of like, if I'm not wrong, or I'm just wildly guessing you at UTXO works,
spend $50 maybe on something and then you get the purchase amount and whatever was left
over.
We'll see the problem with fungible tokens and with UTXOs,
which are a way to transfer fungible tokens,
is that the tokens are, what economists say,
they're homogeneous.
They're homogeneous goods.
There's not a differentiation between one Bitcoin and another Bitcoin.
It's not identified with anything by construction.
So even if I were to say,
here's an idea, but you'd have to be careful about how you might work it. We have an ability to generate fungible tokens. So you could, for example, say, all right, I'm going to have a
special purpose token that allows me to divide up a particular
piece of land. So I'll issue 100 of these special purpose fungible tokens. And now if you want half
my land, I'll transfer 50 to you. And you could transfer 50.22 to you if you wanted to, because they're fungible tokens. But then the question arises, what half did you get?
You know, so you haven't really described a piece of property.
I could give you an interest in the land, you know, so 50% interest in the entire parcel, but I couldn't really do a transfer because the tokens are homogeneous.
That makes sense yeah this can perhaps serve a wide
variety of other applications i'm glad you mentioned the special you know purpose tokens
and how they can be fungible inherently without with you know god bless them again but dealing
with a bunch of the worst part is that you have to go
for long faraway bridges the faraway lands stadiums of time far long ago just to get back
to the original uh token that yeah that's right and here you know john can you just mention a
couple of things from the white paper because it is is kind of my duty as the fiduciary.
Of course.
Okay, I'll just suggest.
So it's a blockchain-powered real estate smart contract, okay,
and registry system in Bangladesh.
Okay.
The background and rationale would be number one.
Number two would be how blockchain accelerates land registry digitization.
Yeah.
Some rudimentary, but three, they have a monetization strategy.
They're concerned with fees.
So three, one would be smart contract execution fees.
We don't have to worry about that.
Second part would be title verification services.
So they are hoping maybe to provide some with the lawyers and banks and other stakeholders
where they can perhaps maybe charge $1,000 or $5,000 per report.
And three part of monetization strategy would be API licensing.
Banks, ability for banks to verify ownership before issuing digital loans,
developers to register plots and units. We spoke about this.
And they also, I guess, the third part of the monetization strategy,
they also have platform as a service for developers, real estate developers um and etc um
and then this is just a wild question but everything we're talking about is pretty wild
so i do want to ask you john if you be so kind they're also flirting with an idea of setting up
it's almost like i'm having like a heart attack but they're
flirting they're flirting with an idea of setting up their own essentially e-taka like it would be
a collateral backed digital currency that would essentially work in parlor with the government
and i think many of the smart nations are setting up contingency plans for fiat to perhaps not work
anymore so yeah they're just possibly looking for e-talk system i mean if geek is able to even just
approach this problem i would be so thankful then i don't have to use stellar yeah yeah yeah well
okay so look let me let me tell All right, so here's the problem.
I'm going to tell you the truth, which may not be entirely in the interest of
geek, so I'm going to do this before Stephanie comes up and hits me on the
head, so I've got about a minute.
So we definitely can be more efficient, But the thing is that part of that efficiency and part of that lack of trustlessness is that it takes a middleman out.
So the government wants to sell things, wants to give access, wants to control.
Well, kind of the purpose of blockchain is to take that middleman out so that people can do things on their own.
take that middleman out so that people can do things on their own.
So there are places where the government can insert itself if they're doing this primarily from a revenue objective.
But, you know, if I you can register land easily, you know, that's very efficient.
You just have to translate. I mean, you could the dumbest way you could do it is take whatever the digital record
is compose that into a file and then put that into an nft you know you could just do it automatically
through a script if that's gotcha gotcha noted yeah all right so you could do that now the
transfer if you did it one signature transfers government doesn't even have to be there.
You know, it doesn't even have to be aware that anything's happening.
People engage in private transactions and there you go.
If you wanted two of two signatures, well, now the government can be the blocker.
And it is currently, you know,
if you want to do a real estate transfer, you've got to pay a real estate transfer fee. So fair,
you know, that's government does services and so it should get a fee, but that's just requiring a fee. And there are ways you could automate that through a digital currency on the blockchain and have it be verified.
So that could be done without the intervention of a human and could be done easily, automatically and cheaply and would provide a revenue source.
So that's good.
On the other hand, if you're trying to sell verification services, that's interesting because the point is that it's all visible, you know, that I could prove to you independently that I own this piece of property.
I wouldn't have to even have access to the blockchain really to do it.
You know, I could take my credentials and have them offline.
You know, I could take my credentials and have them offline.
So how to insert the government in selling that data, a little bit more tricky.
Because, again, the point of our structure is to let people not have to trust the government or not trust any intermediary.
They're able to do things for themselves.
So that may or may not you
know be a thing that we want to emphasize to the bangladesh one question and i was always fascinated
with this idea of colored coins but could we do an easy way to just maybe break up commercial real
estate from residential real estate is this is that also possible to have different classes of data within this system thank you
yeah yeah trivially I mean all you have to do is just describe the nft differently I mean there's
no reason to make a separate a separate class it's like saying I have a separate type of paper to have
to have a you know a commercial real estate deed versus a residential.
It's all on paper and they just say different things.
So there's no particular need to have a different data structure.
But in the reverse, my apologies, just one quick question.
Yeah.
But that would be like ex post, like ex ante, I understand.
But if we look back, are we able to retrieve some data just by looking at the NFT?
What sort of type of ownership they have if it's residential or?
Sure. I mean, you have the whole history of transactions that always exists.
And if you wanted to, you could put it into into into a stack or a counterparty transaction so that the movement of the NFT was actually contained in the NFT data itself, if that's the right business model.
You want to chime in, Lon?
Yeah, if I could. Sorry, I came in late, so I didn't get to introduce myself.
No, it was a lot.
So I just wanted to clarify what John said.
And from a blockchain perspective, the NFT is just holding bits of data.
And the bits of data are, one, there's a field for, typically for a hash, and then there are additional fields that are metadata fields.
So to the blockchain, it doesn't actually interpret the data.
It just accepts the data that is being given to it by the person or sorry, the account that is generating the NFT.
the account that is generating the NFT. So the semantics of the data is really applied
by the reader of the NFT. And so if the government decides to use a particular format,
then let's say it would use the first field as the location and another field. The second field has the description of the location,
maybe it's a type, commercial or not. So all those things are defined by effectively the user,
and the blockchain doesn't really differentiate between that and someone else's NFT, which
describes something completely different, like a game token or something.
So once the data is there, then of course it could be indexed and someone could have
a service that looks at the data in a particular view.
In this case, you're saying the Bangladeshi government.
So they would have a schema and you would be able to search for those transactions using that schema,
sorry, those record entries in the ledger, and jump right to them in the block explorer to view.
And so then you would know that it is actually in the ledger.
So hopefully that's helpful.
Yeah, so that's exactly right. And it meets your, your requirement, which is very sensible of having the computation happen offline. computation can't alter the data
in the chain unless follows the blockchain protocols of correctly authorized signatures.
So you've got a secure and mutable database
only through the correct authorizations,
but what you do offline, what you do with the data,
we don't put any restrictions on that at all.
And I just have one question and i apologize i might sound like a dummy but when i was looking
i was looking like these tokens maybe from a year ago and is this like a form of sharding is that how inherently this would work where we can spin off our own low shard and then they would plug back
How does that work?
That node who is the node validator in this case because they would have to have their
own system, I suppose, to verify all the signatures and then all of the transactions.
So here's how I would do it.
And you know, Stephanie pointed out there's many ways, but let me give you one way. One way would be to have this as a shard.
It might not even be in the broader ecosystem.
It might be something which is completely private
if that's something that Bangladesh wished.
And it could also have multiple shards within Bangladesh
that maybe were for different provinces
or for different types of real estate.
You know, for example, commercial real estate
could run under different rules
than residential real estate or farming.
So you have an instance of a blockchain.
Who are the nodes?
The nodes would probably be the Bangladeshi government.
Now, if it's only the Bangladeshi government, then it's just a private ledger.
And so there's no reason to trust it at all.
So if there's buy-in that's desired, if you want people to trust it, you've got to
choose, um choose others who
are not interested. You could, for example, choose maybe commercial banks, maybe international
accounting firms, maybe well-meaning NGOs. And you could also open it up. Sorry, go ahead. That was very, very timely. NGOs, NGOs comment.
I hoped I would slip that by. Yeah, but any anybody at all, even a private person, you know, you could have major corporations or just a private individual, you could offer the opportunity to be a listening node.
And that there's no reason why not.
both verified and widely distributed by actors who don't have common purpose and cannot be
controlled or threatened by any one entity. And how much you value that,
you know, that will determine exactly how you set up your notes.
wonderful wonderful and and and i will just strain you for five for one more two more questions johnny
if you don't mind forever go ahead pardon me i'm just gonna have a sip of my nettle tea um highly
recommend that everyone males especially in the audience drinktle tea, it's anti-inflammatory.
That nettle is a widely available plant everywhere.
You can even get it in the spring.
All right.
So I just, my guest's last question,
does this ever have to deal with their monetary authority
or I would prefer not because it would be different
from something like a banking system.
So this would just be entirely a system ledger
for record keeping and transactions right i personally i'm like you i'm ocd you know i think
if you try to pile too many things on top of a jenga stack you're likely to have it fall over
so yeah sticking sticking with one or two purposes, I think makes a lot of
sense. And there's absolutely no necessity. In fact, it's undesirable to tie it in with
the rest of the banking sector. I would even divide it up more finely, like I say, you
know, this is real estate in Lahore, you know, that's it. And our, you know, commercial real
estate in Lahore, you just let's keep it simple so that you know
where to go everything that's relevant is in one place you know everybody understands what's going
on there's not extraneous data but that's just me you can do it any way you want and then anyone
anyone can chime in but john i just wanted to ask you my last question in terms of the roadmap
would it be fair to say so we start like start like as a sandbox project where we accumulate all the business
requirements,
then we move into a production stage and then it would be kind of like a pilot
program.
Cause the way I,
from what I've seen in blockchain and a lot of projects are continued to build,
there's no reason to go from zero to one.
It would be a pilot,
right?
I think it would be,
and they can run in parallel and then
i can assimilate when it's ready yeah i mean i i it's a it's a big deal and there's lots of assets
and you know i i certainly wouldn't want to throw something on to a new technology or even a new
vendor without having to test them and make sure that they work. So yeah, I would envision a pilot
and I would envision that that pilot would evolve
because I don't have any insight
into what the right UI UX would be
and what Bangladeshi users would want.
I know how to provide the data in any form they might need,
but I don't know how they want it displayed to them.
So, yeah.
Serbian government has, for the past 10 years,
done a really good job with digitization.
And so I'm just going to reference, when it comes to UX,
we're just going to look at what the Serbian government has
for our e-registry and e-government.
And just basically, I have some consulting groups are doing this as well I already snatched it got it great
because that's really hard for me you know I don't see teamwork teamwork and
then I guess my what my next step will be and then we can open the mic for any
questions and thank everyone for but we'll just take all of this information now that I have a better
understanding of it and just put it in a request for proposal with all the
geek marketing official setup. And then, and then they can review it.
These good people can review it or what their solution would actually look like
in terms of just listing things on, on a white paper and calling it a WP.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
I want to add something to what you were saying there, if you don't mind.
And that is that one of the reasons that I think that you, that blockchain is, I mean,
bless their hearts, but to put serious assets on a proof of stake blockchain
is just to me an insane idea because if there are assets that are worth billions and billions
of dollars and the staking token is worth 100 million, well then why don't I just take
over the chain and own the real estate?
Or if I'm Pakistan, why don't I disrupt the Indian real estate market?
Or if I'm Russia, why don't I disrupt the Ukrainian one?
Lots of bad actors, lots of adversaries.
And if you put assets that are valuable beyond the on-chain assets,
you just create an incredibly rich security target.
And it's just crazy to me that you would ever, you know, contemplate that.
And that's why this idea of proof of honesty, I think, is really the only,
I mean, sorry, but it's the only really safe way to do it.
Because it doesn't matter how many people lie to you, you can prove the truth.
So as long as you have somebody that knows the truth and somebody that can say, I'm only going to pay attention to the
truth, you're fine. And it doesn't matter if the NSA attacks you, it doesn't matter if the
Bangladeshi mafia attacks you, your data is safe and you can use the correct data. You're not depending upon consensus or power over consensus.
And to me, that's the price of entry to anything that's a high value kind of tokenization.
That's perfectly said.
I don't believe that they even believe that they can tokenize anything but
again god bless them all right guys one last question i thought
um what the last thing that did i if you just maybe you can just maybe shed some light on how
stacks have evolved and and just
general question about geek you know getting people on boarded to your main application stacks
would be would be would is is a first play for retail adaption i suppose that's something we
can offer them as well yeah i think it's really interesting i just personally love twitter uh
connectivity whoever that's really cool and the wallet it's right interesting. I just personally love Twitter connectivity. Whoever, that's really cool.
And the wallet, it's right inside the web.
Yeah, I'm just speechless.
How do you guys came about to build all of this?
Wow.
I'll say a few words, but really, that's much more Lunn and Stephanie.
But yeah, we have that.
And the way that I imagined it, at least, is that there are things that take place linearly that you want to see evolve.
You know, there are a series of events in a life or there are credentials that are accumulated or there's logistics that go from one place to another place.
that go from one place to another place.
And if you're doing this through a smart contract,
then again, you're trying to chase down
all of these hash references to some piece of data
that might be stored in different databases.
UPS might have one of the pieces of information
about how a package was transferred
and then American Airlines has another one
and the Port Authority of New York has another one.
So how are you going to acquire
all of these transfer documents,
all of this stuff, even if you're allowed to?
So putting them in a stack,
or there are other ways we can do it too,
but putting it in a stack just makes a lot of sense
because it's one-stop shopping for information.
And then there's the other fun uses.
You can do art series and got to catch them all with Pokemon and all those other things that are kind of interesting and cool.
But anyway, that's my viewpoint.
I think Stephanie and Lund probably have a lot more technical details about that.
Come on, Lund. would you like to chime in?
Yeah.
I'm happy to.
So, you know, we created the app as more as a showcase
to see how stacks could be used.
And in fact, we have two mechanisms in the blockchain.
One's a counterparty record and then also Stacks.
And so you asked how the protocol has changed.
I think that was a question.
And so the current Stacks app is actually using the counterparty record underneath,
and we will be implementing a true stack record a stack of records. So we will have
two different types of records and there are good reasons for both. I don't know if we
want to belabor this.
What if you give us this?
Yeah, go ahead, John.
No, no, go ahead. Give us a high point, John.
Oh, you're asking me.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so I think the counterparty record is great for a supply chain.
So it's a record that an entity creates, and then they transfer it to another entity, but both parties have to agree to it.
So it's kind of countersigned in that way. And it can move across the supply chain from A to B to C to D.
And then once it's out of your hands, you have no way of updating it.
It has to be updated by the person or the entity that controls it.
But they can't force it on another entity.
So let's say the farmer to the trucker,
they both have to agree before the on-chain,
the counterparty record, which represents maybe a cargo,
a bag of coffee beans, et cetera, could be transferred.
So you could probably see some interesting applications
beyond supply chain.
Some others we thought about, like if you have security access and you're transferring it,
you can't just impose it on someone. It has to be assigned by both parties effectively.
With an NFT, sorry, with a stack, it is owned by one entity, and then they can add layers to the stack.
So let's say you're acquiring certifications from different trade schools or anything else, and you could just add it to your own stack.
As long as it's something that's been signed by someone else, you can embed it in your stack
and then prove that you could acquire the certifications.
And there are different ways to model that,
but that's just one example.
So both of these concepts are really useful
and I've probably given you more than you asked for,
but I'll stop there.
Well, just quick add. Why stop there?
In this future where DAOs are going to control the world
and we're using proof of honesty
and we have verification in place,
you can designate a certain...
You know how you used to have a sultan of Turkey.
Now we can have provincial leaders or whatever
that are assigned these roles
and that's how you trust the role is true.
Oh, yes.
You've kind of mentioned something that's just fantastic.
John has come up with this Geek ID and chain of command.
So there's a lot actually there to talk about in terms of proving identity
and then assigning roles and so forth.
So I'll let John speak if you want to elaborate on that.
Actually, there is, this does feed into your project in the following sense.
Stephanie actually just gave a talk at a sort of very high level security group.
And they're deeply concerned in the US
about two factor authentication
and all the various ways that there's, you know,
SIM cloning and how things are stolen and passwords
and trying to work out how we can actually deploy pass keys.
So people are really in a tizzy
because our security is at the point where it's almost
impossible for people to really behave in a way that a security expert thinks is minimal.
And so if you're going to try to set up an entirely new system that's gonna have something as important as the physical land of a country.
Building this on a foundation
where we actually do have security is,
I think, pretty important.
And that's something that we can uniquely offer.
You also mentioned this idea of showing who's who
and ownership and so forth.
This identity system builds that right in that
you can look at the NFT and then you can look at the government endorsed identity of the owner.
So you can say it's not just some schmo and somebody is not trying to sell me a false title.
In fact, he's proven to me that he is the entity that the government has designated as the owner of this property and so that's that's yet another layer that we can add that i don't think anybody else
has available this is interesting because i think at the end of the day when I just look at ancient
civilization you know let's just look at the modern last 2,500 years from the Roman Empire
and the great British Royal Empire most of it was based predicated on land ownership And ownership. So we're just trying to keep it.
That was a sort of a joke.
But actually, Lon also mentioned hierarchy.
And that's another thing that as things get bigger and more complex, trying to centralize everything is really not a good idea. It's just too much data.
data and, you know, so, you know, allegedly at least, we have all kinds of payments in the
United States government that don't really have an attribution to a line item. In other words,
there's so much money going out that we just, you know, we delegate it and we kind of hope
that people are doing the right thing. But if we can create a system of hierarchy where,
you know, you are designated for this, you're the land agent for some province, you're the
land agent for a company. And that delegation doesn't have to come from the top, but can come
from the delegate of the delegate of the delegate of the top. You know, so we have, we have the
central government delegated to the provincial government that delegates it to the provincial government
that delegates it to a real estate company that delegates it to their agent.
And that agent is authorized through that link of identities to act within some scope
that's completely well-defined and provable and not refutable ex post.
Don't try to do it yourself.
You know, you've got to have good subordinates and you've got to know who they are.
I'll just add quickly that the system that John described just relies on our NFTs and the identities,
and identity is basically tied to your private key.
So ownership of an NFT is basically means
that you have ownership of the private key.
Yep.
Well, if I just have one quick question, because it's so intriguing, I can keep thinking about
the special purpose tokens and the fungible tokens instead of having these homogeneous
pools.
Again, God bless them.
And Uniswap, they're all the same.
I have evidence that correlation among tokens listed in Uniswap, they're all the same. I have evidence that correlation among tokens listed
in Uniswap 2 is plus 98.
Yes, right.
But how would this, I just love the economics part.
That's what I studied at Kenyon.
But these fungible tokens are really cool
because you can then exchange value to a token and then transfer the token itself.
Reflecting how the physical nature works, instead of this artificial linear.
The problem is that we don't live in a linear universe as these two-dimensional is portrayed to be.
portrayed to be no that's right now everything things are sadly complex so you know again that
No, that's right.
No, everything.
Things are sadly complex.
that's part of part of the reason of the idea of blockchain you know smart contracts are such a
clever idea except they don't work i mean it's just a clever notion that you have a code that
you can see you can audit can't be altered and so you don't have to trust it you know see, you can audit, can't be altered. And so you don't have to trust it.
You know, you poke it and something should happen.
Doesn't work that way, but that's an awesome idea.
So we try to do that at one layer back.
So you can describe, for example,
these special purpose tokens or an NFT, or there are
a small number of other records. You can describe them formally in a way that prevents or allows
some specific things. For example, if you have a fungible token, you can design it so you can never issue more than 100.
It's done.
And then any guarantee that you might have that this represents something is a legal guarantee.
It's something that happens off-chain that you could be sued for.
Because ultimately, that's where the other assets exist anyway.
You know, I can't transfer a house on a chain because a house doesn't live in a database,
you know, it lives on land.
So it tries to do the correct separation
between information and, you know,
the designations of ownership and value and so forth,
and so forth and and the reality of them which happens off chain
and the reality of them, which happens off chain.
outstanding one idea that i personally had was with this token excuse me
can you guys hear me okay you're you're very clear yes oh yeah. One thing that I just wanted to, I've been following this project called Tote,
project called Token Unlocks.
And yeah, they make this big fuss.
So we still have to follow the coin market cap space.
I don't mean to preach or anything,
but I have a really big problem with these projects
with fully diluted valuations of, you know know reaching of 20 billion on a very small supply
yeah so i guess one thing i wanted to do was maybe just on our app we'll just highlight through these
special purpose tokens the the actual tokens they have in circulation yeah yeah no that's right and
and the special purpose tokens i mean they, they could be anything, but, you know, ideally they're representing something small.
So they're representing, there shouldn't be a thousand or a million of them.
There should be a relatively small number doing exactly what they're supposed to do, and that should be that.
Wonderful.
Yeah. wonderful yeah well i'm going to do everything in my power then maybe in a week from today we'll have some uh we'll have positive announcements at least i will transcribe this data share with
stephanie and we'll do some great editing once it's ready um we'll ship it off to the client
and then we can get moving okay so i'm so happy. I'm so happy, but mostly just really thankful.
And it's an honor to be, I know it's a very limited scope of what we're discussing today,
but it's just so cool to be part of the group and speak to you guys.
Oh, we're really, it's so nice.
To me, it doesn't matter if it's not useful.
I mean, I think that maybe that's a difference between us, one of the differences between
us and others, you know,
we're a project that really is focused on use and the token, you know,
we're not a meme coin. You know, the token has,
has value because the project has value,
but we're focused on the value of the project and what it can offer.
So that's what excites me.
And your application is really exciting and I'm i'm happy to help in any
way i can because it's really really something interesting and is it is it a worth is it worth
an effort to standardize this process because maybe i don't want to work with the united states
government but somebody else would i'll be more than happy to however we structure the
the system this can be used for other for other
uh you know to benefit the greater good of humanity and it's not a it's not a punch line either
no i mean one of the things that you know standardization what happens is that as soon
as something is known to be valuable everybody puts their hand in and screws it up for their own economic interest.
So if we can get in there and make a standard that's useful and does what it should before
anybody notices, then we can actually impose a useful standard for humanity.
So that's what I think we ought to be trying to do.
These guys are a consortium. I had to, I had to take a quick look.
They're a consortium, they're a consulting group.
That's pretty much how Germany works these days.
Yeah. Yeah. But you know, we can accommodate, but, but fortunately we know,
we know stuff so we can, we can try to make it good.
Well, I'm concerned with this one client at least we'll will because it's a good friend of mine who actually opened a
charter business so I guess we don't you don't have to fly you don't have to apply
public anymore because we can arrange any flight that you want or have if
there's a great people if you want to go visit we'll all go together okay
that's good I look forward to working with you. I'm really excited. Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
It's five o'clock on the time.
Okay, good.
We made it.
Made it.
Over to Keith.
This was really interesting.
Thanks very much.
It really was wonderful talking to you.
Yeah, it was really great.
And I mean, thank you as well again for joining this.
I'm loving your energy
i think everyone who is listening in also um and it's great to see like people like yourself as
well who see the added value actually the value that geek is bringing on the table so that's
amazing because like everyone involved in geek has been working uh relentlessly uh and it's
starting to show off as well so that's that's
amazing it's really great to see and it's great that we are attracting amazing people as well
along the way like yourself so that's uh that's amazing i'm amazed
so what last a comment i hear a lot of people on the internet because everyone is now on the
internet they brag about like what school they went and how this school is better than that
school and i'm like well instead of building can we just focus on like building solutions and i
think stephanie had a really good comment on twitter yesterday she just said that you don't
need a native token to use geek um and and I think this is where the true crypto adoption would come from.
Unfortunately, crypto is a name we're stuck with, guys.
Sorry.
You're stuck with it.
Yeah, we're stuck with it.
But congratulations.
I know you're on micro cap.
I know it's, you know, but you're on CoinGecko.
Everything looks wonderful and presentable.
Beautiful website, beautiful assets. The marketing is outstanding. The engagement is 10 out of 10 and the now johnny
Thursdays are wonderful
It just reminds me of the weekend coming up
All right, thanks very much
Awesome. Ciao ciao ciao. Bye. Bye everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank Thanks very much. Awesome. Ciao, ciao. Bye, everyone.
Thank you so much. Thank you very much
for joining. Thanks, everyone, for listening in.
And see you guys again
next week. Thank you.
