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Williams Blockchain Society🎙#Crypto #EDU
Recorded: Feb. 27, 2023 Duration: 1:04:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
Okay, cool.
So, Will, if you're in the house, you have to request to speak.
Also, make sure you're on your phone.
Twitter spaces only works on mobile as far as speakers are concerned.
Nice, I got Will.
So, you know, we're in the house, you're in the house, you're in the house, you're in the house,
you're in the house.
computer science, um, background. I'll also just mention quickly, um, I spent a year studying
abroad over at, um, Oxford and the Oxford university blockchain society is really, really
strong. Um, met a lot of cool people there and, and that definitely, you know, sort of just
increased my, my interest even more. Um, so I'll hand it over to Will, but that's quick background
on me. Yeah. Hey Noah, thanks for having us on. Um, so I guess I'm kind of the inverse of Mark.
Um, I'm an economics major, um, even though I took a few computer science courses at Williams.
Um, I got into blockchain or web three, I would say more as a hobby in 2017 when I was in high school.
Um, we didn't do a ton, um, at the time, like in that club, but we did try to set up like
a dash master node and we were trading crypto kitties. So that was all pretty fun at the time.
Um, I got more, I would say fully involved in the industry during 2020. Um, I ended up taking a gap
year during the COVID year. Um, and I interned at a crypto fund and then I, uh, I was also part of
Masari's community analyst program. And I put out a little bit of DeFi research through that.
Um, and more recently during the school year, I've been, um, interning at Shima Capital. So also,
um, sort of exploring the venture side of things. Um, yeah, I would say definitely being an e-com
major has helped in terms of thinking about like token design and supply and demand economics.
Um, but yeah, in general, I would also, I would also just say, yeah, running the club at schools also,
um, sort of, it's allowed me to, you know, take a lot of time to sort of read about things and just
get a general sense of the space and sort of dig in. But, uh, yeah, that's sort of just been my story.
Beautiful start guys. Um, so first of all, would love to hear about Williams Blockchain Society's
history when it was founded and what has developed over the last few years, or I'm not sure how long
you guys met around, but over the course of your life cycle, what has developed to allow you to
reach the point you are at today?
Yeah. So, um, I guess I'll take it. So our club is two years old right now. Um, I co-founded it with
the recent alum last year. Um, when we first got started, I would say there was a little bit of
interest and then it picked up gradually throughout the school year. Um, and then after, um, the Terra
incident, I would say attendance went down a little bit. Um, and I co-ran it with Mark this fall. Um,
that was pretty good. And I'm actually currently studying abroad in Stockholm. So Mark has been
running things this semester. So, uh, yeah, I'll let him, uh, talk about how it's been this semester.
Yeah. Like I said, we're, we're a pretty small school. Um, well, I think, what is it like 2000
kids total at Williams? Um, so yeah. Yeah. And any community sort of this small, um, the pool of
people that are going to be really passionate about, um, blockchain is, is, you know, obviously a
little bit more limited, but we've been trying to, uh, sort of drum up some more interest. I would
say, um, well, two things that are potentially interesting first, obviously knowing that we're
not, you know, a Berkeley, a Penn, like a massive school that has, um, you know, uh, uh, extremely
vibrant, um, student community that's interested in blockchain. We're sort of trying to play to what
we see our strengths as a liberal arts school being. So, um, we sort of had to make a trade-off
early on of like, do we want our meetings and our events to really be focused on the crypto native,
um, people that are already really deep in the space and like having these very in-depth in the
weeds discussions, or do we want to make it almost more of like a top of the funnel effort to get,
you know, quote unquote, like normie students, uh, interested in, in blockchain. And so, um,
we've been sort of trying to take this perspective of like, we're at a school where people are
studying a super wide range of topics. And it's very easy to draw in the people that are already
studying economics or computer science. Cause you can sort of make the pitch of like,
here's why it's interesting and related to the stuff that you're studying. But we're also trying to
bring in elements of like, um, you know, here's how it's related to like macro level,
like geopolitics. When you look at, um, just like how crypto crypto affects interplay between nations
and like, um, you know, very, very high level macro, uh, monetary policy, stuff like that to
get people that are maybe studying poli sci or political economy interested, um, you know,
talking about some of the design elements, um, NFT related stuff to, to maybe draw in some of the
people that are, um, studying sort of stuff more in the arts world. Um, so trying to make it
appealing to a wide audience. And then, uh, at the same time, because there are some students
that are really interested in stuff that's in the weeds, we've been partnering with other
blockchain, um, groups across other schools that are in our athletic conference. So the NESCAC,
it stands for like New England, small college athletic conference. It's a, um, group of other
colleges in the Northeast, uh, Tufts, Bowdoin, Amherst, Middlebury. Um, there's, I don't know,
something like 12 or so colleges. And we've been partnering with all of the blockchain, um,
clubs there to form this larger sort of coalition so that we can kind of, you know, punch above our
weight when we combine the most passionate students across all of those. So Will can maybe speak to some
of the efforts that we've got going on there, but, um, that's been a way to like, get the people
that are really interested at Williams and want to dive deep to, um, you know, have access to more
in-depth opportunities. So we're, we're organizing a conference right now that's going to be held in
Boston at Tufts university, um, with some, with some industry speakers and stuff that's going to
be in April. And that's the type of thing where like Williams maybe couldn't have put that on,
on its own. But when we partner with a bunch of other small colleges together, we can sort of,
um, make something like that happen. Yeah. Um, yeah, just to go off of what Mark was saying. Um,
so sort of this coalition we've been forming, it's relatively new. Um, I started reaching out to
people, um, this past summer and right now I think we have, yeah, seven, seven or eight schools that are
part of this, uh, sort of coalition of smaller, uh, liberal arts colleges in the Northeast. Um, yeah,
we've been doing smaller initiatives recently. Um, so we're, we're digging into some like personal
research. Um, you know, we have bi-weekly meetings and, uh, yeah, but recently the main focus has been,
uh, trying to organize for this event on March 31st at Tufts, um, sort of targeted at, um, students who
are thinking about going into web three. Um, but yeah, I would say again, like Mark said,
we're, we're not, you know, necessarily a larger program like Penn or Cornell or Columbia. Um,
so I would say the general trend is that these smaller colleges that don't necessarily have the
community or resources like those schools, um, there tends to be like, I would say three to five,
but maybe even more to be honest, um, like serious, um, students in web three at all of these schools.
So, and we found that by combining all of our resources together, we've been able to get like
a lot more done. Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, I, I mean, I, I'm sure it matters in some
respects that you guys aren't as big, but I also think it doesn't matter in a lot of respects because
you have found a way to broaden your member base. This coalition sounds like a very smart idea and it's
allowed you to hold a conference at the end of, at the end of March. So hats off to you guys. Great
work so far. Will, really quick. You said there's about three to five serious students per each one
of these small liberal, liberal arts schools. It's, it's like the interest is that, um, that, that narrow.
Well, I, I would guess I would probably say, yeah, maybe around five students per school who are
thinking about going in full time. Um, I would say there are definitely like more students who
are very crypto curious and are like, I would call them like serious enthusiasts. Um, but yeah,
I, I would say my experience so far has been, um, there tends to only be a handful of, uh,
sort of students looking to go full time into the industry. Um, at least recently. Um,
yeah, I've been a bit surprised by that. What would you, I've been a bit surprised by that too. I would
say it's like, it's, it, it truly is around, yeah, like three to five students. And that seems to be
the trend around schools of our size. Um, and also like liberal arts schools aren't necessarily
these very like kind of tech heavy feeder schools. So I think that the student body at large is maybe
not like the total target audience for a lot of the most passionate blockchain people. Um, but like,
that's the number of students that have prior knowledge about the space and aren't just sort
of showing up because they want to learn more, but are like showing up because they want to discuss
the news they see every week. And, you know, they're, they're listening to the podcast. They're
the type that would be listening to this space on their own. Um, so we, we, you know, when you look
back at like, I don't know if you've seen some of the photos of like, you know, conferences in 2013,
where it's like Brian Armstrong running the Coinbase, Coinbase booth solo, or like, um, you know,
some of these conferences where you have these incredible speakers giving a talk to like three
people that are now like, you know, really big names in the crypto industry. And, and we'd like to
hope that one day people look back on these days of the blockchain society as like, you know, wow,
it's crazy that there were only six people gathered in this room on a, on a quiet week talking
about it. Um, you know, we should have all, we should have all realized that this was something
to pay more attention to. I couldn't agree more, uh, Mark. And when you guys have these biweekly
meetings, it typically you're saying consistent, is it also consisting of three to five students,
or is it a bit broader with people that are still enthusiasts and still, uh, are juggling the
fence or rather on the fence about going into web three or not? Yeah. So we've tried to have,
we have weekly. Oh, sorry. Well, I was just gonna say, we, we have weekly meetings that are with
just the Williams college specific. And that's where it's like pretty like normie friendly,
high level discussions, um, you know, trying to like kind of introduce people to new topics.
And then the biweekly meetings are with the other NESCAC colleges. And that's where we're sort of doing
more planning. And like, you know, everyone you're talking to is, is already pretty crypto native.
Well, does that sound right to you? Yeah, I w I would say that. Yeah, exactly.
And I want to know more about this. You guys just gotten together this coalition and you've
organized the conference. It's going to be held at Tufts. Tell us about the conference. How big is it
going to be? Um, who is allowed to come? Do you have any major speakers that are going to be on stage?
Would love to hear all the details. For sure. Yeah, we're, we're a little late on the details
right now. Some of the stuff we're, we're sort of waiting till we have, um, all the pieces together
to announce it. Um, but we have, Will and I have been fortunate enough to sort of like have some
various connections throughout things. So, so Will mentioned, um, you know, interning at, at Shima
Capital. Um, I've, uh, this past summer, uh, I was interning at, um, CMS Holdings, um, who,
if you don't, they're a great Twitter follow, uh, if, if you don't already, uh, at CMS Holdings,
at CMS Intern. Um, so that, that was, that was a lot of fun. And they're, and they're Boston based,
um, Boston surprisingly, you know, kind of, um, punches above its weight, I think for a, for a relatively
small city when it comes to crypto, which is kind of cool to see like a burgeoning community there.
Um, the Castle Island folks, another, another great venture firm out there. They've got a great
podcast that they do every week on the brink. Um, so we're trying to just sort of reach out to people,
um, and, and try to make it, uh, sort of like Northeast oriented. So, um, kind of tapping our
networks and seeing, seeing who's around there. Um, but right now, I think broadly the plan would be to,
to have it mostly focused towards students. Um, and, you know, depending on, as it gets closer,
when we're sort of able to gauge numbers and stuff, potentially opening it up a little bit bigger.
Um, well, does that, any, any, any other thoughts there?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, yeah. So the conference is going to be hosted by the NESCAC coalition,
but we're also welcoming all other colleges in the Boston area to attend. Um, just logistics.
It's going to be from seven to nine. Um, like Mark said, we're still sorting out some like final
details, but once we have them sorted out, we're going to be posting, uh, sort of like, um, like
flyers with, you know, logistics and, and details about the, uh, about the panel.
Mm-hmm. And guys, what's your future vision? Uh, before we get to the next part of the,
the AMA, what's your future vision for the Williams blockchain society? Once you guys graduate and look
back and pass the torch on to lower classmen, uh, where do you, where do you, where do you hope the,
uh, the torch bearers take this club or take the society?
Will, do you want to start, start with this one?
Sure. Um, yeah, I'm hoping honestly, um, as our web three alumni continues to grow
and support the club, we'll be able to, um, hopefully bring the club up to sort of a similar
tier to like the more established clubs, like again, Berkeley or Columbia or Penn and, um,
get more of a machine going. I would say right now it's run by a few really serious individuals,
but yeah, just growing the club in terms of numbers, but also, uh, yeah, the, in terms
of numbers, but also just having like a large amount of really, um, sort of motivated, um,
you know, kids who want to go into web three full time.
Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. And I think like, hopefully the club will be
sort of a, a launch pad for, for students. Like I, I think right now, a lot of it is
us sort of designing the discussions that we'd like to have, the research efforts we'd like to do,
stuff like that. I hope that eventually the club will become, um, sort of a space where people
come to weekly or whatever the cadence is come to meetings with ideas of what they would like
to see and implement on their own. And the club is just sort of this like support network to help
them do that. But I would love if, um, you know, students were coming in with, with ideas of projects,
they want to start, um, things they want to tinker on writing, they want to do, and they can just sort
of use other students in the group as a sounding board. Um, I think it's sort of like speaks to,
you know, I almost want to see it follow this like progressive decentralization route where right now
it does feel pretty top down where sort of the, the co-presidents organize every meeting and people
sort of show up and we set the agenda. And I would love if it was much more of a round table discussion
where people just come and they're, you know, they're yelling about what they're excited about.
They're getting in arguments over, over different chains, like whatever it might be,
as long as there's just sort of energy and passion, I think that would be, would be super exciting.
Mm-hmm. Well, I think you guys doing a fantastic job so far. And if we can be support to you guys
in any way at all, uh, we're happy to here at whale coin talk. We can talk about this more offline.
Uh, Mark, I want to talk a bit more about you. You were studying com sci, you've taken some econ
courses, uh, you were interested in web three from a tech perspective, and you really loved how you could
spin up apps on Ethereum. And, uh, it just took a life of their own from there. I'm curious to know
what your aspirations are. Once you graduate, what do you want to do is in this industry,
you want to work for another company, you want to build your own DAP or your own protocol, uh,
share with us. Yeah, for sure. I think that is absolutely the goal. Um, I think that's absolutely
the goal long-term. I think there was a, so when I first got excited in the space, I don't know if you,
if you've heard of, there's this thing like the Dunning, uh, the Dunning-Kruver effect. There's,
there's sort of this curve that you can look up a graph of. And basically it's like,
the more you learn about a topic after you've, you feel like you've learned a lot about it. You,
you feel like you've mastered it. You're like, wow, I understand all of this. And then you learn
a bit more and you realize just how much you don't know. And I think there was part of me where,
like, after a year or two in, in crypto, I sort of like, I was listening to all the podcasts,
reading all the book, you know, read mastering Bitcoin, read mastering Ethereum, learn all the
tech, learn all of the up and coming projects and protocols and everything. Try to understand,
you know, your Ethereum down to the, the EVM opcode levels and stuff. Um, but then you just like learn
how deep, how deep it goes and, and you realize there's just so much to learn. So I I've sort of,
um, had to expand my time horizons a little bit where it's like, I want to be constantly tinkering and
building things and learning new stuff. Um, but I know that if I just sort of rush
into trying to build something right away, I mean, some people do that, right? Like I've,
I've known people that have not even been, um, computer scientists or like, uh, engine,
like software engineers at all. And they, and they just pick things up through like one bootcamp
and start a protocol and, um, you know, raise venture money and like, just have a, have a really
successful ride. And I think that's really impressive. Um, I think that I'm looking for
more of this like longer term path of, of out of school. I do want to spend, um, at least probably
a couple of years kind of just honing my craft and in the software engineering realm, um, filling
in a lot of the gaps of my knowledge, because I did actually come to computer science pretty late.
Uh, you know, I, I, I never studied in high school. It took me into like a midway,
midway sort of through college to find that path. Um, but I think like the nice thing about
knowing that this is where my passion lies is that I can devote all the learning that I'm doing that
time sort of towards this ultimate goal. So basically all that to say constantly sort of,
you know, sharpening my blades, getting ready and, and learning so that, um, kind of when the right
idea strikes, when the right opportunity arises, um, I'm, I'm ready to go all in on it and just devote
everything I've got to that. I love it. And it sounds to me, just based on what you've told us,
you're ahead of the curve, even respect a lot of people that I started with in the space 2017. Um,
yeah, I've, I've had that same Dunning-Kruger effect and I felt that the more I learn, the more
I learn, I unravel another stone and it leads to sea of information that I know nothing about.
Oftentimes when I bring a expert on as well, I feel like they're running circles around me. So
I think that, or at least for what's worked for me, what's worked for me is, um, you want to have a
broad knowledge of the industry, but then you want to pick a few sectors or a few niches that interest
you the most and kind of dive into those and, and try to be an expert on those. But even then there's
not, you can't know everything, but it does sound like you've done a great job, Mark, with, um,
reading all the books and listening to the podcasts and kind of building that foundation.
Uh, so I wanted to learn a bit more about your time at Oxford. Uh, what was that like?
Yeah, for sure. Um, that, that was a blast. I mean, it was a blast just like personally, um,
experiencing a totally different university, a totally different geography. Um, so that was awesome.
Uh, and then, yeah, as it relates to sort of just learning a lot, um, I was taking all kind of
computer science and economics classes and I basically tailored my entire year's curriculum
to be geared towards, towards blockchain. Um, had a funny incident. I was, I was taking one course that
was at this, um, actually sort of this like graduate, uh, level program that was all about, um, kind of like
digital economics and like how economic principles apply to, uh, technology and, and sort of the,
the modern digital age. And we, we touched, blockchain was not, um, not a core emphasis
of the course, but we did talk about it for one of the classes and, and found myself basically in
a room of like, you know, let's call it 16, uh, graduate students and a professor. And I think I was
the only one that had anything supportive to say about, about crypto. And I got to tell you,
I came out of that conversation more bullish on blockchain than I have ever been because this was
a lot of really, really smart people. Right. And, and every single argument that they had
against why it was, why blockchain was not solving the problems that, that, um,
um, you know, sort of, they were, they were, they thought that it was alleged to solve all of the
arguments I sort of heard before. And they were just like broadly off the mark, you know,
they were bringing up like the classic, oh, it's, it's energy inefficient. And I was like,
well, are you aware of that? You know, there are different consensus mechanisms and there's this
thing called proof of stake and it's, it's actually not, uh, energy inefficient at all. And, and,
you know, they were talking about, um, they were like mixing up what it means to be decentralized,
decentralized versus distributed. At one point, you know, someone was saying, well,
Facebook is decentralized because they have servers across the globe. And I was like that,
that is just not what decentralized means whatsoever. And, and so there were just a lot
of misconceptions. And I realized that if, if these were, um, you know, a lot of really,
really smart people, they, they seem to have these strong beliefs about blockchain, but, but it was just,
it was, it was all negative and it was all unfounded. And I came away from that pretty excited.
So that was just a small anecdote. Um, the other, just really positive thing,
I can't say enough positive things about, um, Oxford's blockchain society. They've just been
really on top of the ball, always organizing, um, you know, student, uh, student trips to all of the
major, um, conferences. They've been supportive with different boot camps and stuff. I did a, um,
a boot camp through them over one of the holiday breaks with, um, with, uh, chain shot,
who was now acquired by alchemy and has sort of been rolled up into the alchemy university program.
And that was really good. Um, they ran a hackathon that I, that I participated in. Um, we, we,
our, our team won the, uh, the web three category, not, not to, not to toot our own,
our own horn too much, but that, but that was a ton of fun. So they were just, um, it was,
it was really lively and, and, um, the student body there was, was really, really passionate.
The last thing I'll say is I've got to give a shout out to, um, there's a group of students there,
um, or just a group of people in the area, um, that formed this group called HomeDAO.
And they're now running this string of hacker houses in the Oxford area. And it's, you know,
a really interesting project to highly encourage people to check them out. And they basically have
this string of houses that's sponsored by different crypto industry participants. And they, uh, are just
supportive of young builders in the industry, have a lot of great partnerships with different
companies do a lot of interesting discussions. And the basic thesis there is just, if we have a lot
of passionate, ambitious builders, put them all in the same place, have them live together and, uh,
and kind of magical things will happen. So got really involved with them and still, um, stay up
to date with them a lot. So really hoping to make it back to Oxford later this year, at some point to,
uh, to connect with old friends there. Brilliant. I would love to get the Oxford University
blockchain society on for a Twitter space. We'll connect offline about that. Also, I've, I can relate
deeply with your experience of being in a room with people that are quite intelligent. Um, and
oftentimes in my case, I felt like they were much smarter than me, but even the smartest people in
the world can fail to do due diligence. And I found that to be a case oftentimes when it came to these
people in my life who were passing down judgment on Bitcoin or on blockchain or on this industry,
uh, sometimes took their advice a little bit too, uh, literally, or rather, I, sorry, sometimes put a
little bit too much weight on their advice to my own detriment. Uh, this is back in 2017, 2018. But, um,
I, I really, I really just want to say, I, I have been where you've been before. And I know that
feeling of just walking out of the room and be like, wow, people that are this smart don't, um,
they haven't really taken the time to understand it. Then this is still very young and, uh, very,
very new nascent industry. Uh, so I want to talk a bit about Will now. So Will, you're an econ major.
You said you took a few comm sci courses. So the, the inverse of Mark, um, and you got into the industry
as a hobby in 2017. When you were still in high school, you tried to set up a dash master node.
Were you successful in doing some? Um, yeah, we actually weren't, unfortunately, but, uh,
we tried for a solid week. Um, it was still a fun process and, uh, you know, we learned a lot through,
uh, through doing it. Um, I did briefly set up a Bitcoin minor in college, my freshman year,
but it was just so loud. I had to shut it down, but, um, yeah. Yeah. So were you,
you, well, first, what was kind of the barrier to success for the dash node? Was it just too
technical or it just didn't have the right, um, didn't, didn't have the right parts? I don't
know. I don't know how it works really. Yeah, it was, it was a little too technical. Um, this
is going back to my junior year of high school. Um, yeah, I tried to do it with another guy and
we hadn't taken any computer science courses at that point. And, um, we were just sort of messing
around online. Um, I guess just a general observation, um, documentation has gotten a
lot better though. Um, through time, like back then it was just really hard to understand,
I guess, anything that was going on, but it's gotten, the space has made like a pretty large
leap in my opinion, just in terms of having, having like better documentation in general.
Yeah. Right on. Well, Hey man, hats off to you. I was playing a lot of world of Warcraft
when I was a junior, junior in high school, um, with the, with the Bitcoin mining, you said you
set it up. It was kind of loud. Were you able to mine any Bitcoin back then or any, any part of
the Bitcoin, any Satoshis at all? I think we were able to mine a little bit, but, uh, it was just,
I mean, it was just so loud. It sounded like a jet engine. So, uh, yeah, so I guess minor success,
but it was also, uh, there were sort of concerns around it being a fire hazard as well. But, um,
again, it was sort of just an educational experience.
You put out DeFi research for Masari, the Masari community. Is there anywhere we can go
and read that? And what was it about specifically?
Oh yeah. I have my, uh, personal website linked in my Twitter bio. Um, and that has sort of all of
my writings, um, that I've done so far. Um, I'm just trying to remember. So I wrote one about, um,
compound at one point was trying to make their own blockchain. Um, I wrote about that. I actually
don't know if it ended up launching. Um, it was, it was called gateway. Um, I also wrote about
AAVE arc when they were launching their, um, sort of permission pools, um, targeting more institutions.
Um, and I also wrote about, um, the ecosystem of projects that were planning to launch on optimism.
Uh, I think summer of 2021.
So, yeah, that, that was all pretty interesting. Um,
yeah, now there are so many different layer twos, but like, it was sort of, uh,
uh, I guess it was just, it was pretty interesting learning about it when it was all happening
because I, I didn't fully understand it, but I'm glad I was, I was writing for Masari at the time
because it just, um, it's nice when sort of your job or your work is just like being very caught up
and just constantly learning.
And you're also, um, I think you're interning for Chima, you said, uh, doing, exploring the
venture side of things. Tell us about that experience. What kind of work you've been doing?
Yeah. Um, so I interned for Chima this summer and I worked part-time for them this fall.
Um, I'm actually going to be doing something a little bit different this summer, but, um,
um, yeah, it's just been a really interesting experience seeing things, um, from more of the
investment side because when I was at, when I was doing the community analyst at Masari, uh, program
at Masari, it was more just approaching things, um, from a research perspective. And, um, oftentimes
like you would read, oh, such and such project was invested in by these VCs. And it was really
interesting to see the other side of things. Um, yeah. In the last six months.
And, um, yeah. Oh, sorry. No, no, no. Go for it. I thought you were done.
Oh yeah. No, I was going to say at Chima, um, I mainly was looking at DeFi projects. Um,
I would say different guys on, on their team. And I'm sure a lot of other VCs are like this sort of
specialize in, you know, certain sectors like, um, certain people will focus on gaming or certain
people focus on NFT related projects. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was really, it was a really fun
experience because I got to sort of specialize in an area. I really enjoy it.
That's awesome. And are you able to give us a sneak peek into what your summer plans are this year?
Uh, yeah, I think they're kind of in South right now, but, um, I'm going to be helping a, uh,
um, a startup with token design and, um, maybe a little bit of product strategy.
That's awesome, man. Um, and you mentioned that you're currently studying abroad in Stockholm.
Uh, my girlfriend's Swedish, and I really want to visit soon one day. Would love to hear about your
experience. Oh, nice. Uh, yeah. Stockholm's been great. Um, it's pretty culturally different than
the U S I would say people here definitely, uh, a little more reserved. Um, it gets dark out really
early. Um, like in January, when I arrived, the sun sets at like 4 PM. Um, but yeah, there's
definitely a lot of cultural sites that are really interesting to check out. Um, yeah,
if you travel, um, to other cities like Gothenburg, you need to check out the Volvo museum. That was
really fun. I went to that, but, uh, yeah, I would highly recommend checking it out.
That's awesome. I, when you said you were studying abroad in Stockholm, I'm like, damn,
it must be so dark and cold there right now. Uh, I don't know if you're going to be able to
experience the summer at all, but there are times in Northern Europe where like the sun sets it.
Um, I don't know. I was in Russia a while ago, but the sun sets at like 1 AM and then it rises
again at four. And I think Stockholm's probably the same.
Yeah, definitely. There's, uh, yeah, not a ton of daylight here.
Cool guys. Well, you chose, um, you chose Williams college, small liberal art school.
It's in the mountains, which sounds awesome. I'm curious to know what,
again, this is my first time interviewing a blockchain society from a small liberal art
school, but curious to know as students, uh, out of, out of high school, what made you choose,
uh, going to a small school instead of big, one of the bigger ones?
I can maybe start here. Um, I think I was, I, so I'm from the Northeast, uh, not, not far from here
and actually have some family members that, that came to Williams. And so, uh, I had heard nothing
but positive things about their experience. And I think part of that sort of influenced me.
I think a big thing is, um, having pretty small classes where you get to interact very closely
with, um, with professors is, is really nice. It's, it's kind of rare to get almost, you know,
close to one-on-one mentorship with experts in, especially in a field like computer science,
where there's so much demand for people in tech that it's, uh, it's, you know, not often that,
that, um, yeah, I guess it's tougher to, to draw people to, to academia. So that's been,
that's been great. Um, and then I think also just kind of the tight knit community here is,
is really strong. So like we said, it might be, it might be a smaller, uh, just quantitatively
group than, than other schools. But, um, I think we are very cohesive in not just the blockchain
society, but really kind of any student group, um, on campus. And it's nice being able to walk
around and everybody sort of knows each other. And, uh, and, and, you know, it's all, um, kind of
one, uh, one little, one little group of us out in the mountains where you've, uh, there's not,
there's not a ton going on, but you kind of make your own fun and, uh, and get to know people really
well along the way. Yeah. I love that tight knit communal atmosphere. Uh, honestly,
I think I would have really enjoyed that in college, but my school wasn't too big. Will,
what about you? Yeah, I'll second most of what Mark said for sure. Um, the tight knit,
the tight knit community is awesome. Um, and something I've noticed is I would say all of
my professors really care and it's, it's really noticeable that they do. Um, they're always available
to meet after class. And, um, and because the classes are small, you really get to know everyone
in your class. And, um, yeah, I would say it's definitely just a better learning environment
because of it. I love smaller classes. Um, I, I I've been in big classes, like massive auditoriums,
and then smaller classes and the latter is just been so much more rewarding. And I felt like I got a lot
more out of that class, uh, is you get that one-on-one personalized experience with the professor.
So yeah, great guys. And what about accredited blockchain courses? Is that something that
Williams is ever going to explore in the near future? Do you have any professors
that are on board that are hip with Web3? Unfortunately, I don't know if that's going to be
in the cards, um, anytime super soon. I know there's a lot of, there's definitely a lot of computer
science classes that help you sort of grasp the fundamentals that are necessary for really
understanding the technicals of blockchains or I'm in a distributed systems class right now
and learning a lot about, you know, networks and just, yeah, I guess distributed systems in general
is obviously very important to know. Um, other courses like that help you understand the inner workings
of protocols of consensus mechanisms of things like that. And then obviously the economic side of things, um,
just understanding the basics and sort of just being generally literate in that area helps you
when it comes to blockchain in general and also, um, you know, applications, DeFi protocols, things like that.
It helps you understand, uh, understand precisely how you got absolutely wrecked in the, uh,
Olympus DAO, uh, ohm crash because you understand the game theory and you understand why 3,3 didn't, didn't pan out,
but even though it, it, uh, it, it seemed promising. So, um, that's been nice, but I, I don't know, honestly,
a lot of our courses here are, are specifically meant to be very general. Um, part of the liberal
arts kind of ethos is that courses shouldn't be too, um, like pre-professional. So, you know,
the med students here, people that want to study medicine, there's no really classes that are
specific to medicine. It's just, you kind of study like biology and get the basics there. And, you know,
students that want to go into finance, there's no real finance courses. Um, you just take a lot of
economics and then that sort of, uh, the ideas that prepares you with just sort of like the economic
way of thinking. And then you kind of have to learn that, that other stuff on the job. Um,
and I, and I think blockchain is sort of the same way where, where it's, it's viewed as a little bit
too niche of a subject for them to necessarily offer specific courses there. But well, does that sound
like kind of your experience? Yeah, I would agree with that. It's definitely in the ethos
of the college to promote more like general classes that you can later apply to more specialized things.
Um, but part of a really cool aspect of Williams though, is during January, we have something called
winter study. Um, and during the month of January, um, you only take one class and it's pass or fail.
Um, and those classes tend to be a little more creative. Um, so I was actually hoping to talk to
a professor, um, um, next year about maybe having like a blockchain related winter study class.
Um, and hopefully spiking interest, uh, you know, through that.
Yeah, no doubt. Take it one step at a time. You guys are certainly moving the, uh, moving the needle
forward. When I was in college, there were no blockchain clubs or even the infrastructure or even
professors that would even want to listen. So, um, I think that, and I say this very often now that
your generation, Gen Z, Gen Alpha are going to be the next big wave of money, interest,
great minds, adoption that funnel into this industry. And on that end, by the way, Will, I,
I pinned your, well, actually pinned your website to the space so people can go check out your research
if they want. Um, Oh, thanks. Yeah, no doubt. Uh, so that kind of leads me in my last, the last
part of the space. And I'm curious to know, well, let me, let me preface by saying none of this is
financial advice or should be taken and all should be taken with a grain of salt, but I like to do this
fun Q and a, or I ask students about various assets in the industry and various sectors of the
industry that they might find bullish, but let's, let's start with Mark, um, and then go to Will.
So Mark, what are your thoughts on Bitcoin? Do you think Bitcoin will remain the top dog,
or do you think it'll eventually be flipped by another asset? And if so, which?
Yeah. Uh, the, the many billion dollar question, right? Um, I think that my answer when it comes to,
uh, specific assets is, is pretty bland and pretty consensus based on at least a lot of the
kind of top minds that I've listened to in the industry, which I'm, I'm pretty confident in
Bitcoin and Ethereum and, you know, excited about, but only cautiously optimistic about, um,
any other specific asset. Like I think when it comes to other assets, it almost makes sense just to
think about like an index of having a broad basket, um, of, of kind of everything else,
just because Bitcoin and Ethereum are the like two, you know, thousand pound gorillas in the room.
Um, I think that, uh, I, I would see at least for the very long-term Bitcoin maintaining its place as,
as top dog. Um, I think that it's sort of cemented this, uh, this niche as the monetary,
like money first kind of crypto asset. Um, you know, it's had different narratives around, uh,
store of value, inflation hedge, all these different things. And, and kind of regardless
of which specific narrative you're talking about, it's clear that, you know, if someone in the space
right now, if someone who's new to crypto, like wants exposure to crypto, like the first thing you're
probably going to recommend to them is like to buy Bitcoin. And it's sort of become this shelling
point of just what people think of when they think crypto. And I think that is what gives,
it's got sort of this Lindy effect to it too. Right. Which people talk about it's,
it's the oldest one it's trusted it's secure. So I think at least for like the, the foreseeable
future, I see Bitcoin maintaining its top place and ETH being a very strong second place. Um, and
like, it's really hard to say anything with confidence beyond that. Right.
Yeah. That's, I love that take. Uh, and it's a, it's a fair point of departure. I feel very
similarly. Will, what are your thoughts?
Yeah. Um, I guess it's a difficult question. Um, I definitely think, you know, Bitcoin is always
going to have its place. Um, I think the argument for ETH versus Bitcoin though is just very different.
Um, Ethereum is more trying to really like replace the internet in a way and Bitcoin is trying to
replace money. Um, so I guess I am more, I guess, uh, like, I guess I would say, I sort of believe
stronger in ETH, I would say, um, just because, you know, especially in the last like two years,
we've just seen so many like amazing applications, um, come out that have been building on Ethereum and
other layer ones. Um, but yeah, I, I definitely, uh, I definitely understand the, the argument for
Bitcoin being a store of value and, um, and better than gold in many senses. But, uh, yeah,
that's probably my take. Beautiful. So Mark, are you, uh, are you also bullish ETH?
And do you think the right idea? Yeah, no, I think, I think my, my previous answer is, is my, uh, you know,
rough prediction, um, about the future, but like, personally, I'm, I'm much more excited about
the Ethereum ecosystem than, um, you know, I, I know there's interesting stuff happening in Bitcoin
right now, all the ordinals drama and stuff is definitely very interesting. But I think personally,
for me, like, I, Ethereum blows me away. The developer community, I mean, you brought up the
merge. That is one of the most impressive, like collective technological feats in software history.
The people that compare it to swapping out the engine of an airplane while it's flying. I think
that is like a very fair analogy just to, to gauge how impressive it is. And for that to have gone off
without a hitch, like, you know, I can't say enough impressive things about, about Vitalik,
about the Ethereum core dev team and about just the ecosystem that's building around it. I mean,
you see right now, even with, um, you know, coin, you know, Coinbase, the launch of the base L2 is
sort of the hot topic of, of the week. And, you know, that's a layer two on, on what else, but,
but Ethereum, it's, it's clearly where the developers that want to push the bounds of blockchain
seem to be building. That's nothing again. I mean, so many great things to say also about
Cosmos app chains. And like, I'm not one of the total ETH maxis that say other L1s aren't good,
but I just think that it's, it's shown the strongest staying power and has some really
great minds behind it. Um, the other, I don't know if this is jumping ahead to other questions
you're going to ask, but I think two of the things that get me most, um, excited right now
about the Ethereum ecosystem that make me even more bullish, first of all, account abstraction.
Um, I, I put together like a written piece on that recently, but I think that's going to solve
so many UX problems within like just the web three space broadly. Um, and, and Ethereum is,
is, you know, really pushing forward on that. Um, there are very promising EIPs that sort of have
that in place and ready to go. And then also I am mega bullish ZK proofs. I think all things ZK are
really, really cool. Part of that's just the like computer science kind of math nerd in me
that, that thinks it's really just phenomenally exciting technology. But I think it's also very
practical because ZK gets to the core of privacy and scalability, which have been sort of thorns in
the side of, uh, blockchain protocols for so long. And, um, you know, to, to be able to deploy ZK solutions that
just almost magically seem to seem to address both of those problems, whether we're talking
ZK rollups or whether we're talking, um, you know, privacy preserving L2 is like, it's, it's just
really, really exciting. And I think what's cool is even in the bear market right now, there's a lot
of activity building in the ZK space. Um, and a lot of really, you know, big giga brains working in
there. So I, I'm really excited. And I think the next bull run that we're going to see is going to be
very heavily ZK powered. Um, the last thing I'll say there, Vitalik is on the record as saying that
he thinks that zero knowledge technology will be as big as blockchain technology. So if that doesn't
tell you something, you know, I think it, if that, that is just like a very clear sign of like, pay
attention to ZK. Shout out me and the protocol, not financial advice. Mark, I love to hear someone
who's as bullish Ethereum as I am. Will, I don't know if you had anything to add to that. I feel
like Mark just kind of stole both of our thunders. I couldn't have articulated that better myself.
Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. I fully agree with Mark's take. Um, yeah, again, I'm, I'm pretty
bullish ZK as well. Um, I definitely think like ZK KYC has to happen at some point. Um, just because,
I mean, I think it's all right, not having KYC for a lot of these protocols right now, but
eventually it's, it's going to have to happen. But, uh, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Um, and Mark, we, we pin that, uh, actually pin that, uh, explanation, that in-depth
explanation of the concepts to the space as well. So guys, what sectors of the industry excite you
the most? Let's start with whale. What, what, what gets your blood boiling?
Um, industries or sectors. I mean, I would, I would still say DeFi. Um, DeFi has always
kind of been my main interest in the space. Um, I would say it's, it's sort of been in a lull
recently, but, um, I think at a certain point there's going to be innovation, um, that just
allows it to dip into places it hasn't before. And, um, yeah, I think that's going to spark a lot
of new innovation on top of that. Right. But, uh, yeah, man. Uh, Mark, what about you?
Yeah, I think, um, I think you nailed it earlier when you were talking about how
to sort of keep your, your, to keep a float in crypto, you have to broadly know what's going on
and, and sort of all of the different verticals. Um, and I, I think basically every subsector you
could imagine is interesting, right? Like I have at least, uh, uh, you know, a reasonably
strong interest in DAOs, NFTs, DeFi, gaming, whatever you want to say. I think, I think,
I think that gaming to me is not a personal interest all that much, but I think it is really
exciting as a, a potential application that's going to bring a ton of new people into crypto.
So I'm very excited about its promise that way. I think for me personally, sort of some of my like
pet interests, I think the, um, identity space is, is really, really interesting. I think that like,
like when I think about what, what blockchain sort of solves the novel things that it lets us do,
they're sort of like adding a financial layer to the internet, which is awesome. And then adding
like property rights and identity. And so I think a lot of the stuff, um, around, uh, even sort of
like somewhat crypto adjacent stuff, things like decentralized identifiers and verifiable credentials,
like definitely think that space is cool. There's a lot of interesting, um, crossover between
ZK tech and identity and data ownership. So I think that's really exciting. Um, and yeah,
I think just stuff in that space is like, it's, it's interesting to me. And I also just think it's
worth mentioning because it feels a little bit kind of undervalued or like underappreciated. Um,
I think when people talk about their, their favorite things in crypto, um, that doesn't often
sort of come to the top of people's list. But I think for me, it's really, um, pretty, pretty cool.
Couldn't agree more on all those, uh, on all that Mark, you're really just preaching to the choir
here at whale point talk. Um, last question for you guys, and going to start with Will again on this
one, if I was to give you a hundred thousand dollars and you had to DCA, you had to DCA into
crypto the next year, what would that portfolio look like?
Um, I would definitely lead with ETH first. Um, and I think this goes back to the original question,
but, um, yeah, I, I would definitely, uh, do ETH. I mean, there have been a lot of other layer ones,
um, especially during the last full run that, you know, got a lot of attention, but I think over
time, Ethereum just continues to get stronger and cement its, you know, place in the market as, uh,
sort of the layer one to lead others, um, just in terms of decentralization community and, um,
and just developer traction. But, uh, yeah, I'm curious to hear what Mark has to say though.
Yeah. It's, it's tough, right? It's like picking your favorite children. Um, I, I think,
I think I would probably go something like 40, I'd give like a slight edge to Ethereum. I do like
41% Ethereum, 39% Bitcoin, and then 20% and like the DeFi pulse index or something just to get like
exposure to maybe, um, some other assets, like hopefully kind of have this like basket of other
assets. I know people always talk about DeFi tokens sort of like, uh, being a leading indicator of the
rest of the market. So like people have speculated that, you know, whenever the next bull run is to
come around that you'll see some of the DeFi tokens kind of launch first. And, um, and I think like
having some exposure to Uniswap, Aave, Compound, things like that is like, is, um, you definitely want
to like have some sort of allocation to those, but yeah, like, like Will, I think, um, really
excited about Ethereum, just like the growth prospects there, especially. Um, and then Bitcoin
is just like a staple.
Well, Mark, Will, it's been a pleasure having you guys on picking your brains, learning more about
Williams blockchain society and your career aspirations. I wish you guys both the best in
life and, uh, you're doing great things at a very young age. Love to see it and excited to see how
your generation moves the needle of this industry forward. If you have any final thoughts for our
audience, go ahead and share them now. Otherwise it's been a pleasure.
I just want to thank you, Noah. I really appreciate you giving us, um,
giving us the space to talk about this stuff, um, share a bit about the club and about ourselves,
um, love and appreciate the work that, um, that you and the team are doing to,
uh, to spread the good word and to, um, and to, you know, just educate and, uh,
and get other people excited about the space. So yeah, really appreciate it.
Yeah. Thank you so much, Noah. Really appreciate being on and being able to talk about Williams and
all the stuff we're doing. Um, yeah. And hope to keep you posted.
Right on gentlemen, uh, whale coin talk community. That was my third AMA of today. We have one more
coming up with our main man, Glenn. You're listening to another episode of the
aquarium with Williams blockchain society. Remember that everything you hear on these broadcasts
meant for educational purposes only. Nothing is financial advice. So be safe out there and
we'll see you all tomorrow. Take care.
