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Xtalks: Seamlessly Blending Real-World Athletics with VR Simulation
Recorded: April 29, 2024 Duration: 1:09:01Space Recording
Full Transcription
Can you give me a thumbs up if you can hear me okay?
Please, whoever is on the stage who's a speaker, arranged or surprising speaker, you know, please request to speak and I will approve your request and we will kick it off.
Meanwhile, I'll pass it on to Cody to do the introductions.
For sure. Looks like we just have a couple more people that we're waiting on.
So let's just give one more minute and see if we can get them up on stage.
And then we'll kick this off.
Right, Stephen, I can see you in the audience.
But could you please request to speak?
Could you please click that little mic icon in the, what is it, left bottom corner, please?
So I can pull you up on the stage.
Bob can definitely mute his mic for now.
This is going to go, going to be great.
Yes.
It's going to be good.
Technical Monday, right?
Having technical issues.
So, but yeah, let's go ahead and I guess we can just kick it off.
Who else are we waiting on?
You know, we have a few other people, but I guess they'll join us when they can.
Yeah, maybe they will, they will join a bit later.
Maybe we will see, right?
We will see how it goes.
But meanwhile, we can definitely keep off and then start the discussion and then we will roll from there.
Yeah, no, that sounds great.
So let's kick this sucker off.
Hey, everybody.
Thanks for tuning in on this Monday, Tuesday, wherever you're at in the world.
I guess it is Monday still for most people.
But anyways, my name is Cody.
I am the Chief Experience Officer here at Layer 1X and we will be, Inna and I will be your hosts for today of this kick-ass episode that we're going to be doing.
So, yeah, just to kind of let everybody know what the topic is going to be about today.
You know, we've been kind of internally talking about this, but we've also seen quite a few projects around this as well.
But we definitely feel that the tech that once felt like sci-fi is now flooding the education space.
But can platforms truly replace the hands-on muscle and sweat reality of learning a physical skill?
Is the future of mastery?
Is this the future of mastery or will something essentially be lost in transition?
So, we are talking to some experts and we've invited some innovators and maybe even those who have built their skills in the digital space onto our panelists today.
And we are definitely going to be covering the potential, the pitfalls, and the question that lingers when it comes to mastering the physical.
Can technology even replace the in-person experience?
So, with that ado, let's kind of kick off with the speakers on our panelists that we do have with us.
Stephen, if you'd like to go unmute yourself and go first and introduce yourself, feel free to give us kind of a 30-second elevator pitch on you, any projects, anything that you're doing currently.
We'd love to get to know a little bit more about you.
Hi, I'm Steve Hilton.
I'm based in University College London School of Pharmacy.
I'm using virtual reality to train pharmacists and also to integrate science into this as well.
So, really pushing the boundaries of virtual reality and AI.
It's a fantastic tool and I think we're seeing what the limits are with it and how we can use it to train the next generation of people.
Awesome, well, welcome, welcome.
Next up, we have our, we have Scott.
Scott, do you want to unmute yourself and give us your 30-second elevator pitch?
I got to say, yeah, my name is Scott.
So, Scott is not a project, yes.
Scott is not a project or a, or like a protocol.
Scott is actually a hands-on coach, instructor, and Juju's a practitioner.
So, I'll let him now introduce himself properly.
Go for it, Scott.
Hi, guys.
Sorry, my Wi-Fi is just cutting out a little bit.
So, let me know if you can't hear me.
But, yeah, so basically my name is Scott.
I'm a BJJ black belt.
I'm living based out of Bali.
And, yeah, so, like, I'm a full-time coach at Bali MMA.
And I've been doing jiu-jitsu for a long time now.
And, yeah, so I've been a coach for a long time as well.
So, yeah, just here to see where this goes and give my opinion and my experience based on this sort of thing.
And, yeah, let's see where we go with it.
Perfect.
Well, welcome to Xtalks.
It'll be nice to have your perspective.
That's for sure.
Next up on the panelists that we have is Abstract VR.
Colin, do you want to take a minute?
And I hope it's Colin behind the handle.
It is.
Definitely.
I'm pretty sure.
Yep.
Do you want to give us your 30-second elevator pitch and let the audience know a little bit about yourself?
It feels like Colin might be battling the permissions for the mic and potentially, yeah, just Twitter bugs, whether that is.
Could you please try and mute yourself and then try to speak and we will let you know if we can hear you?
Oh, he just dropped out.
Help.
I'm approving the request.
We will see.
All right, Colin.
You want to try unmuting yourself again?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I can hear you.
I don't know what was going on there.
I kept, I could see that people were talking, but it wasn't coming through my speaker.
So, I'm here.
Yeah, perfect.
Yeah, we'll blame X and Elon for the technical difficulty.
But, yeah, Colin, do you want to just give us your 30-second elevator pitch and let the audience know who you are and what you're working on?
Sure, yeah.
My name is Colin Rose.
I'm the CEO and president of Objective Reality Incorporated.
We are a cloud computing company that focuses on the adoption of cloud for VR use cases primarily, although we do work in augmented reality as well.
So, for the last two years, we were really focused on the gaming space.
So, like streaming high-fidelity, PC-quality VR video games from the cloud down to your standalone VR headset so that you don't have to buy the $4,000 computer to have a really high-quality VR experience.
You would just download our application from the app store and connect to our cloud and stream whatever games you want on your MetaQuest 2 or 3 headset.
So, that's been our focus, and as I'm sure you guys could see from the post earlier, we took that into the training and simulation space middle of last year with our first demo, which was seeing if we could teach Shotokan Karate in VR.
So, we took and found an expert in Shotokan Karate and modeled them and got them, you know, teaching in VR the beginnings of Shotokan Karate to see if it was possible.
And then we've also gone into other places as well in training, industrial training, things like that.
So, our focus this year is primarily on the training and simulation space.
So, that's kind of what we're up to right now.
Ah, perfect.
All right.
Well, yeah, as you can see, we've definitely got a panelist full of expertise and knowledge, that's for sure.
And so, this is definitely going to kick off to be a great AMA.
So, if you are tuning in now, it looks like we have one more joining us.
Yeah, we've got Gabriel.
Gabriel from Nuno Spirits.
So, he's – we'll be ready to speak right about now, I think.
So, go for it, Gabriel.
Do you want to give a 30-second elevator pitch on you?
Sure.
Sorry, sorry.
I was a bit late to the space.
Twitter would be rugging and bugging me out over here.
So, I'm glad I'm here.
My name is Gabriel.
I'm the founder of Nuno Spirits, which you can see has also joined us in the space.
We're a fun, creative space for playing fun games and planting trees.
We've planted over 20,000 trees already within our ecosystem, and we're hoping to plant the next 20 million.
So, if you're interested in that, we have a hybrid model.
So, we have a free-to-play game with a Web3 portal.
And that's enough from me.
I don't want to take up too much time.
This is a really cool space.
Thank you for having me.
I'm looking forward to learning a bit more about it from these athletics VR simulations.
It sounds super cool and ready to get stuck in.
Let's do it.
All right.
Well, with that said, for those that are just tuning in, my name is Cody.
I'm the Chief Experience Officer.
And today, we are definitely talking about education using AR, VR, MR.
And so, yeah, with that being said, let's just kind of jump into the first question then.
Can we just, just before we dive into the first question, you know, like for people who are very far away from technology, like Scott, for instance, trust me, like it took him two hours to figure out Twitter.
So, but also at the same time, he will, like, you know, in reality.
Wait, wait, he's figured out Twitter already?
Like, because I still have it.
That's a bonus right there.
Oh, you know, yeah.
Studying Jiu-Jitsu, learning Jiu-Jitsu, I suppose, makes you a little bit cleverer than you normally are.
So, he did it anyway.
But, you know, we have AR, we have VR, we have MR, too many R's to my liking.
And to me, for instance, as also a person who is not very educated in terms of, like, virtual reality concepts and stuff,
it would be nice to know what each abbreviation stands for and what is it responsible for.
And why did we not have just VR as before?
And I think Colin will be a great person or Steven maybe will be good people to, like, try and explain certain things in regards to this question.
Yeah, I could take a crack at that.
So, from a developer perspective, VR is an easier platform to immerse the user in a training environment, for instance.
You can have full control over everything that the user sees and make it an interactive learning environment.
Whereas AR is primarily used for, like, on-the-job kind of augmentation.
So, you can have the schematic of the aircraft engine that you're working on displayed on your headset as you're working on the actual piece of machinery.
Mixed reality is just a combination of both of those things and primarily used for entertainment versus the AR, which is more of an industrial-military kind of application.
Yeah, it's more about the interactive device that goes between the created reality and the person.
That sounds like a good definition.
So, hey, that reminds me.
If anybody has any questions or wants some clarification on what these different platforms are, definitely drop those in the comments in the thread below.
And we'll make sure that we get those up to our panelists here at a different part in the show.
So, it looks like we have one more guest speaker join us.
Mark, do you want to take 30 seconds and just give us your quick elevator pitch?
Yeah, sure.
I appreciate you having me.
I'm just a gaming content creator here to try and understand a little bit more about what's going on with VR
and how you're going to be implementing real-world athletics, not assets, and see if I can add some value.
Well, perfect.
Well, welcome.
Welcome.
All right.
So, let's go ahead and get this kicked off with the, I guess, the first real question.
And so, some say that VR, AR, MR can fully bridge the gap between mental understanding of a trained skill or technique
and the body's unconscious ingrained ability to execute it.
Is this possible or will we always need some level of real-world training to reach peak performance or ability?
Feel free to jump in at any time.
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.
So, that's what we're trying to prove this year, actually.
We've got one project we're working on right now, which is a company that creates the inner components for semi-trucks.
So, we've gone into their factory.
We modeled out the factory floor, and we're working on a specific production line that makes the center console for the semi-truck.
And we built a gamified simulation where the user can get into the VR headset.
They can actually get the muscle memory of picking up the objects and putting them in the machines and screwing the screws in,
with the goal there being that by the end of this training simulation,
the user has that muscle memory and the ability to identify the components that come up next in VR so that when they hit the factory floor,
we're reducing the amount of on-the-job training, potentially reducing the amount of accidents or mistakes in that process,
and then, you know, cutting down on that time to train and the cost for training for the factory in these high-turnover type of situations.
We hope to be able to prove by the end of this year that by taking the approach of educational gamification,
we can make this an interactive learning experience where they actually will retain that information faster
and be able to perform a lot quicker than they could with your standard training model.
And the same applies for the martial arts as well because, especially with our pilot in Shotokan Karate,
a lot of those katas are not against other – it's not sparring so much.
So you can really learn those katas, and we've designed the simulation so that it can recognize when a user is making the correct arm movements
and how fast they're making those arm movements and giving some feedback whether they've done it correctly or not.
So I think you really be able to ingrain those katas before you get into a sparring match,
and we're still kind of trying to figure out how to make the sparring more immersive, more realistic,
but that's part of our goal for this year is to figure that out.
I think that there's going to be a point, at least with the hand-to-hand combat,
where you'll have to have another individual in front of you to really have that true experience to understand it.
But if we can eliminate the first five, six lessons, putting it in VR,
then you can come to the dojo with a little bit more expertise than you would on week three, week four.
I think that's where we're trying to add the value.
This is brilliant.
This is, like, I personally obviously find it a very, like, interesting, fascinating idea of, like, giving the...
Well, but as far as I understood, if I understood you right, VR training, VR simulation,
especially, like, let's say if we are talking about martial arts or real-world athletics in general, right,
it's a foundation rather than mastering of a skill.
I think Scott could have, like, a very strong opinion in regards to this.
But, like, Scott, do you have anything on you?
Go ahead, Scott.
This is a safe place.
Yeah.
So, obviously, like, I've been doing jiu-jitsu for a long time.
Like, I'm a black bow.
I'm a coach, that sort of thing.
I mean, my honest opinion on it is I don't think you can learn jiu-jitsu through VR.
I think it's one of those things you need to feel, you need to experience this.
Obviously, as much as it is physical, there is the mental side to it as well.
But it's not just, like, linear one, two, three.
Like, we don't do kata in jiu-jitsu.
Like, obviously, there's techniques and there's drills and there's movements.
But it's not so cut and dry, like, where you can just look at something and be, like, that's 100% correct.
Like, there's not always going to be necessarily one thing that's right and one thing that's wrong.
It's, like, does it work?
Is it efficient?
Then, yeah, okay.
You know, like, but there's so many different styles and flares and ways to do things.
And you might see someone do something that's so, like, quirky and unconventional.
And then you're, like, that shouldn't work, but it's so effective.
And, like I said, I feel like it's something that needs to be an in-person experience.
Like, that's half of the experience, the journey, the satisfaction of it, you know what I mean?
And, obviously, like I said, there is a physical element to it, and you do need to be a little bit fit to do it.
But that comes with doing the thing over and over again every day for, you know, two hours a day, one hour a day,
for multiple times a week for years and years on end.
And, like, I don't know, the way I see it, like, the three main reasons someone would even do jiu-jitsu is maybe for a sport or MMA.
So maybe they want to compete in, like, competitive jiu-jitsu or they want to do jiu-jitsu to help the MMA.
Self-defense or even just for fitness, you know, they come to the gym, they just want to be fit.
But all the benefits of doing jiu-jitsu come from actually physically doing it over and over again.
And I feel like that just can't be replicated unless you actually spend time with a real coach or, you know,
jiu-jitsu, we call it a professor, you know, a real coach, professor.
And, like I said, spending those hours and days and years at the gym, figuring things out and, you know, going through it.
So, yeah, that's kind of my perspective and opinion on it.
That's really different, eh?
But, yeah, like, all opinions, they're super welcome here because I think there is two ends of expertise here.
And, yeah, Gabriel and Mark both got hands up.
So go ahead, guys.
No order.
Whoever is getting the mic first.
Mark was first.
All right.
Cool, cool.
So a couple questions on here.
With the martial arts, using, like, a meta quest to do the martial arts, my son plays Gorilla Tag and plays a bunch of games on his meta quest.
And quite often he ends up playing so hard and moving his hands so fast that he loses his grip on the controller and goes flying and smashes against the wall.
So I'm just thinking, like, with martial arts, when you're doing some of these fast movements with a punch or a block and you have an open hand, how are you supposed to hold on to the controller for meta quest when, you know, you're doing, like, a block or something that's open hand and you're not holding it?
How does that register with the content?
Like, how does that register as being an open hand versus a closed hand?
And what about when you're doing, like, these fast punches?
What about, like, when you're going so fast that you end up losing the controller?
Like, I see issues with that.
And then another idea would have been, like, as far as real-world athletics, if there was, like, an attachment that you could add onto, like, a controller that would give you the feeling of a golf club and improving a golf swing would be, like, a great instance of this.
Being able to, like, virtually track how your swing is formed.
Just my thoughts.
I'm going to get out of the way because I think Abstract has an answer for that question.
Yeah, I'd like to start by saying we have yet to figure out if we can even do jujitsu in VR yet.
But that's our – we have some instructors who want to sit down and really figure out what can be adopted to VR and what can't.
I know, you know, from our pilot that we can teach the katas for karate in a way that is acceptable for, you know, our trainer who was a gold medalist in Shotokan karate back in the 80s.
And, you know, so he can – what we've been able to do is have someone do those initial belts in VR and then come into his dojo and perform the katas, which is the requirement for belting up in Shotokan karate, and do them correctly in real life.
And to the question of the controllers, we don't use controllers for any of our simulation work.
We use the hand tracking capability of the MetaQuest headset.
So there's no hand tracking there.
And we've adopted that into – or we've calibrated it to also be able to see the leg movements as well.
There are additions you can buy for the Quest headset that pair up these Bluetooth wrist and ankle bands, which gives you a little more accuracy for someone who's trying to get real-time feedback on more granular type of movements.
But, again, we know this works for the early parts of karate.
We're confident that we could translate that into boxing as well.
Well, as far as jiu-jitsu, like I said, we haven't really dove into that too much this year.
We've got some scheduled meetings coming up in May to really sit down with these instructors and understand what they think is possible in VR.
But, yeah, from what I've understood of jiu-jitsu, there's a lot of knowing where someone's joints are, and you have to feel and know, you know, how to manipulate that.
So I don't know what this year is going to hold as far as what we can and can't do for jiu-jitsu.
But, you know, I think there are a few other styles that we can at least get the foundation there so that when you go to the dojo, you've got a base knowledge that you're pulling from.
Steven, you've had your hand up for a little bit.
Yeah, sure. Thanks. I think a lot of it is the technology.
So going from the Quest 2 to the Quest 3 makes a big difference.
The Quest 3 gives you that ability to have pass-through on.
And without that controllers, I think that gives you a lot more freedom.
The big problem, I think, is going to be the feedback, not having the feedback from the person.
But the Quest 3 with muscle memory, I think that's a fantastic opportunity for this, for seeing how it develops.
So we see it a lot with the memory. When you go somewhere in VR, you've already got a headset on.
The next time you've actually been there physically, you know exactly where everything is.
It makes a big difference.
And having that physical memory of where things are, you've already had that.
It will be really good for the Quest 3 to see how this translates for this purpose.
From my side, I think it's mostly about the haptics or what is it that you're interfacing with on the other side.
If it's just about your own body's movements, for example, with the kata or for maybe also dance choreography, for example,
would be a really good example of internalized movements.
Because this stuff's all kind of already been done with Dance Dance Revolution and all those VR dance games and stuff like that.
They've approached a certain level of fidelity, which it sounds like Abstract is taking to the next step.
And the idea of interacting with, like Mark said, a golf club, that requires a specialized tool with the angle of the head,
the wedge, and the shaft of the club and everything.
For example, when you're teaching surgeons how to operate via a microscopic robot,
they have a specialized set of interface tools that they use within the VR simulation,
which have different triggers and manipulators and stuff like that.
So I think it's largely about what can we put in the hands of the user that allows it to feel like
they're actually interacting with something in the physical, in a real space, but to do it virtually.
And so, you know, blocking somebody's kick or something like that, if there's no haptic feedback,
you know, there's no sense of balance and there's none of that.
So until we can, you know, simulate that, I think those types of endeavors within VR are always going to fall a little bit short of reality.
Like Scott was saying, you know, nobody's going to step onto the jujitsu mat and mess with them.
It doesn't matter how long they've been training in VR.
Scott's going to wipe the floor with them, you know.
So that's my take on the thing.
Now, that's a great perspective.
I'm going to come at it from another angle as well.
So in college, I played basketball.
And so, you know, obviously growing up, you know, a lot of fundamental things that needed to be developed
from muscle memory to just training my body how to control a round little ball, right?
And in 2016, I was able to work on a project that was starting to integrate AR into training young kids with basketball, soccer, didn't matter the sport.
And it was using the start of AI to basically help coach them as well on how they could, you know,
perform better on their dribbling skills, shooting skills, things like that,
because it had in the model of what true form really looked like, how hand placement was on the ball, that kind of thing.
And so, I mean, that was clear back in 2016 when we started working on that project.
And so, me personally, I feel like I agree with Scott that there is a little bit of human touch that definitely needs to be there.
However, I think that to Gabriel's point as well, as long as they're interacting with something that can be monitored, that can be analyzed,
I think that that could potentially be the crossover for a foundational starting skill set.
I'm kind of still on the fence if, you know, 100% a sport or a skill or an ability can be 100% obtained, all virtual.
I think as technology advances and we get more like player, ready player one kind of technology out there with the different suits and things like that,
we might be able to continue to progress towards that.
But I'm definitely on the fence when it comes to those kind of things.
But definitely, it's worthwhile to talk about and innovate towards because it's a great way to educate people, hands down, 100%.
For sure.
Absolutely.
I so agree with Cody.
Sorry, Gabriel.
I'll be very quick.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Just a tiny, tiny remark here, right?
Like, as much as I, well, obviously, I practice Jiu-Jitsu.
I train with Scott.
So, well, I mean, he teaches me and he gives up on me quite often.
So, because, like, I'm not the best student, obviously.
But the thing is, right, if I'm somewhat getting somewhere in Jiu-Jitsu, then anyone definitely can.
And one thing that is important to me, for instance, even though, like, is accessibility.
So, even the foundational kind of, like, basics of Jiu-Jitsu, I think, could be conveyed through simulations, right?
And it could, apart from, like, three reasons that Scott mentioned before why people do Jiu-Jitsu, there is one more very important reason that we should not ever forget to mention is confidence.
It gives you a lot of confidence for women in terms of self-defense, for guys as well.
Like, you don't have to be massive.
You don't have to go to the gym necessarily.
But if you do learn technique and know how to apply it, you're fucking lethal.
So, that is very important to give confidence to those people who are not necessarily living out very often, not able to leave, you know, their premises.
Maybe they suffer with certain, you know, certain things that don't allow them to be within the crowded places.
And in that case, I think this is such a great exposure and it would serve an absolute, like, great purpose.
Yeah.
So, that's my addition to it.
Colin, go ahead.
That's very well said because that was our initial thought with this.
You know, we don't want to, especially in the early stages here, we're not trying to replace the in-person training.
We think that there's an ability here to reach out to a wider audience who might not be comfortable walking into a dojo or walking into a training facility and, you know, starting that process.
There's some shyness there or, you know, some social awkwardness where they don't feel comfortable going into a facility.
So, we can give them that introductory, here's what you're going to see, here's what you're going to expect when you go into the dojo, teach a little bit and then link them up, you know, partner with different real world dojos to bring them in.
Maybe someone who would never consider trying, you know, karate or potentially jujitsu.
And then, you know, with the haptic feedback, we've also played around with the idea of, like, mannequins and different things in the real space that you interact with.
But that's, you know, further down the road, we haven't tackled that yet.
But, yeah, I don't think that at any point we want to say that, you know, we're going to completely remove this individual from a training facility and they can learn to do this sport in VR and be just as effective as someone who never, or someone who's been training in a dojo.
So, you know, so I think that, I think that you said that really well.
Yeah, definitely.
Go ahead.
And then Mark as well.
Oh, I was just going to say really quick, Colin, it sounds like you need to have Sam introduce you to Elon so that you can get his babysitter robot hooked up for this whole.
Yeah, that would be awesome.
Sorry, guys.
Yeah, I just wanted to touch on, like, a few things that people said.
It's obviously there's, like, some people that would never consider or never think about going to the gym or anything like that.
But I still feel like it's one of those things.
Like, for example, I remember there was a thing online a few years ago that was going around where people were saying, like, because in Jiu-Jitsu we have white belt, which is obviously beginner, blue, purple, brown, black.
And there was a few people going around because they would do this online course and they would say, like, I'm a blue belt, like, I got my blue belt online from the Gracie online blue belt course sort of thing.
And I remember that was, like, a real big no-no, you know, like, you should never kind of do that.
And it was like, it was really laughed at, you know.
So I feel like it's one of those things.
If someone comes into the gym and they say, like, I did my intro online or I did my intro, like a VR kind of situation, it's just one of those things.
No one cares if you come into the gym and you suck.
Like, you're not supposed to be good straight away.
That's why everyone has to train, you know.
You have to figure it out.
Like I said, you have to be putting time in to get good at it.
So you can't just, you know, if someone says I did my solo online or I did it through VR, I still feel like that's one of those things that people are kind of going to frown, always got a little taboo, people are going to laugh at you, that sort of thing, you know.
But, of course, like, you know, I've brought up, you know, people with maybe they're limited to being able to go, you know, to a class or maybe they're not confident, that sort of thing.
But at the same time, I still feel like a lot of people are looking for a quick fix that maybe they think they could get online.
But nothing's going to replace actually, like I said before, doing it.
Like I said, I've coached for a long time and I've met people that have come to the gym and they use jiu-jitsu as a way to build confidence because, for example, I know people that have been born with no limbs.
They've had limbs amputated and they still do jiu-jitsu.
There's people who are literally, like, non-verbal, completely disabled and their parents still bring them to jiu-jitsu to, you know, obviously be moving their body and be in a social environment.
There's people who I've coached that had PTSD after being in wars, you know, and they used coming to the gym and putting themselves in these situations to get over that, you know, problem that they have, you know, like people that have been victims of assault, that sort of, to the gym and training jiu-jitsu to help almost those problems they have in their life.
And obviously it is daunting, but the reality is, like, I've never really been to a gym where I think, oh, these people here are assholes, you know, like jiu-jitsu is not like that.
So no one's really that mean.
No one's going to hurt you.
No one's going to, like, judge you if you, you know, like I said, if you turn up and you suck or if, you know, you say, like, I'm really scared or I'm coming here to get over some shit that I've got going in my life or in my head, you know.
But, yeah, like I said, like, we have to physically do it.
It's one of those things that will never be able to be replaced, you know.
And it's not even coming from a place where I'm kind of thinking, oh, I'm going to lose a job.
Like, I know I'll never lose a job to a, you know, like VR.
There's always going to be people that want to do the real thing.
Like, I'm not worried about that.
But, yeah, I feel like even the people that say I need to, you know, get over some fears first, that sort of thing, it's still the best way to get it done.
And the only real way to get it done is, you know, face-to-face with, like, a real coach and a real team.
Interesting.
Gabriel, Mark, go ahead.
I don't know who is first.
I'll go ahead.
I'll be pretty quick.
Hopefully my mic is sounding good.
He was cutting out a little bit for me, so I don't know if it's my signal or what.
But I was just thinking, like, as everybody's talking about this, one of the things that keeps coming to mind is the haptic feedback.
You know, if you're trying to learn karate and you're not actually hitting something, if you're trying to golf and you're not feeling a swing, all these things that require haptic feedback, I can see, like, all these issues with.
However, there's a lot of stuff that's not touched out there that doesn't require haptic feedback that this could be very, very beneficial for.
Take, for example, somebody learning sign language.
This would be a great opportunity for somebody to learn sign language using augmented reality, virtual reality, what have you.
Another perfect example would be OSHA training for people signaling cranes for heavy loads.
Learning the crane signals with your hands and using VR to do that and see virtually what that actually does with a crane could be a great training exercise for, let's say, big crane operators and their signaling.
Right. It could be very quick training for traffic signals, for police officers, anything that doesn't require any type of haptic feedback from your hands.
Just like look at it that way. Like, what do you do in the real world that doesn't require you to touch anything with your hands, but you have to do something with your hands?
Just my two cents.
That's a great point.
Most extreme example of an external sport, whereas internal, for example, I've done capoeira, I've done hema, and there's some base fundamentals that, when I've taught it, are often quite difficult to teach because it's an unfamiliar muscle movement, and that muscle memory just isn't there.
And so, you know, we have basically, you know, them walk across the gym in a particular stance, you know, switching from stance to stance as they walk across the gym, just taking steps.
And then there's, you know, a half step, and then there's a, you know, a lunge or a double step.
So, like, when they come to hema fencing for the first, I don't know, three, four, maybe five sessions, all they get to do is walk up and down the floor, and it's, you know, and they still don't have an excellent command of their muscles in terms of making those movements in a way that's going to set them up for success in the future.
So, you know, to basically be able to say, okay, yeah, you can do this kind of rote, boring, you know, walking on your own in the privacy of your bedroom, you know, so you don't look like a goose or a duck or whatever when you're walking.
I think that really kind of would help optimize the space and the time that we have with those instructors, you know, in a situation where, okay, let's see you walk.
Oh, I can see you've been trying this, you know, before, you know, it looks pretty good.
We can move on.
We can put a sword in your hand, have some fun.
Yeah, that's definitely a good point.
I kind of wanted to shift gears and ask even a question, specifically from an educational standpoint.
Have you seen any increase in data with students that are kind of learning through you guys through using VR versus not using VR?
Do you have any statistics around what you're doing?
Yeah, sure, no, so we take roughly about 200 students per week through our VR software.
I think a lot of them find it good to use and it does improve their memory.
Some struggle with the visual aspect, so there are some which do get motion sickness with the virtual reality software.
I think a lot of the time we do see an improvement in memory and retention memory with our VR software.
I think it's such a fantastic tool for that purpose, that muscle memory.
It doesn't give you perfect training, but it reduces the amount of time you need to train a large group of people in the basic skills before you go anywhere.
I think that's where we see the main benefit from it.
And so then you can spend quality time training people with the tasks you need to train with.
So just to clarify, you're stating that it reduces the amount of time to basically train on basic concepts of things, correct?
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, training in person is the gold standard, but you don't have time to train lots of people in a short space of time.
The VRs bypass that a lot of it for you.
Again, AIs can train you as well in the VR software, which is what we use for a lot of our training.
So that takes away the need for a lot of our physical time for repeat training time and time again on the basics.
We can really focus on the specialized training that we can do in VR.
Perfect.
Abstract then, Mark, and then it looks like we've got a community question, and then we'll shift it over to you, Nomad.
Yeah, just touching on the previous statement, you know, we can, with Shotokan Karate, because that's what we have right now,
we are able to build those machine learning algorithms and put the proper form into the model
so that when the user's putting their arms up to block, we know that they're not doing it correctly
so that the AI can feed back to the user, hey, you know, you didn't move your hand up high enough
or you didn't do it fast enough, you want to do it with more force, whatever the metric is
that we're trying to capture, and then relay that back to the user so that they can continue to practice
until they get that movement correct.
And again, you know, with the katas of the early steps in karate, a lot of that is non-contact.
A lot of it is just getting that muscle memory down.
So for that use case, we can say that, you know, we can standardize the training.
We can make sure that every individual is getting the same level of training from a professional instructor,
you know, gold medalist, all the accolades, and know that they're doing the form correctly
in those early steps.
But then to Stephen's point, there's some recent studies from the National Institute of Health
or National Science Foundation that show educational gamification has a 70% or higher retention rate
as opposed to traditional training models, and that didn't specifically focus on VR,
but that focused on making the training interactive versus classroom, in-person lectures.
You know, the typical retention rate for an individual who sits through a lecture is
by the time they walk out of the classroom, they've retained about 50% of the information.
By the end of the week, without any recurring education on the topic, they've retained about 20%.
So over the course of a week, they've lost almost 80% of whatever they learned in that lecture.
And then if you take that same course and you turn it into an interactive gamified learning environment,
then the retention is much higher.
So there's plenty of science out there that shows the use of educational gamification
and interactive learning to be a better way for someone to learn and learn faster.
I just got one question.
Is there a Mr. Miyagi voice skin for the AI coach?
Because if there is, then I'm in.
Hey, I'll have to go on that.
He just says, you know, wax on, you know, and you got to wax on, you know, wax on.
That's brilliant.
Actually, in terms of like, you know, retaining customers, students' rates and stuff.
Honestly, like doing Jiu-Jitsu and practicing it, I don't, I don't even, I'm not even surprised
that people like, don't stay.
It is a very, very intimidating environment.
And I'm pretty sure it's not only in Jiu-Jitsu, like any martial art you walk in and there are
different levels, different sizes, genders and everything and strength level.
And everyone is just scary.
But this is how I look, like, look at everyone.
And that's why I think a lot of people don't stay.
Whilst if you study certain skill in the environment of your safe home, of your room and you having
fun, then why the fuck not?
This is amazing.
You know, if it Jiu-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu.
And I think it's a great opportunity for someone who didn't feel it at the gym, at the dojo, right?
That's a good point, you know.
I have a follow-up question to that.
But we'll let Mark go since he's had his hand up for a little bit.
Mark?
Are you there?
You need to unmute yourself.
You're probably speaking here.
I'll be right back.
All right.
All right.
We'll move on to Nomad then.
And let him ask his question.
Hey, guys.
Can you hear me all right?
Yep.
Hey, I didn't really have a question, but I was just thinking with this VR learning force,
for karate and Jiu-Jitsu, just my thoughts on it, I imagine Jiu-Jitsu wouldn't, as everyone
was saying, it'll be hard because they used to hands-on wrestling sort of stuff.
But with boxing and karate, I can imagine it'll be a good learning tool as people progress
through their training or whatever.
So they can practice, they can set them up with drills that will reinforce their lessons
that they can learn at home.
But they still need to be going to the gym.
That's what I think.
And there's also sequences of things, you know.
Like in fencing, if somebody attacks with a certain strike, there are a few countermeasures
that you can do.
And knowing which one comes next is often, you know, a huge learning curve for new martial
artists.
So, you know, knowing it was like the first example that Abstract had, where it was about,
you know, setting up, okay, what comes next in the assembly line process, which screw
do you grab next, and which goes in the, you know, recognizing, you know, the state of
or the situation, and then figuring out, okay, this comes next.
I know this comes next because I ran through the simulation with this highlighted.
Now I don't need the highlight anymore.
I can just pick the one, you know, without the helper, if you will.
So, I seem to work similar with boxing, like, what, they'll throw a jab in the VR, and you'll
sort of slip it or whatever.
Maybe you'll duck underneath it, come back around and counter against the VR, you know,
where if you're learning these moves already at the gym, it'll just be a tool to assist
you, get you there faster, so you can work on the stuff at home.
You know, and I, yeah, no, those are all great thoughts.
One thing that kind of came to mind as you guys were talking, too, is this one thing that
helped me tremendously as I was, you know, an athlete playing basketball was going back
and watching game film, watching, you know, things that way, and being able to have it
in a kind of a VR setting where you could actually have a VR kind of coach walk you through the
things that I did.
You could actually have haptic feedback inside of the simulation, which you wouldn't have
from the video.
You know, you can have a wristband or a controller, as Abstract was mentioning, you know, buzz
when you're outside of the parameters of the motion.
Correct.
Yep, exactly.
Exactly.
It's like video study.
We did that, you know, back in the day, back in like, you know, 90s, we were doing, you
know, recording people as they kicked a soccer ball, you know, like, oh, yeah, you're hitting
it a little soon, you know, or whatever, here, look at this frame, your knee is not above
the ball, you know, it's too far behind or whatever.
Yep, yep, exactly.
So, is Mark back yet from getting this?
We're good.
I got sick.
Cool, cool.
Yeah.
I just want to say, like, I think it was Gabriel that was talking, but it hit the nail right
on the head with the fact that I think a lot of us were looking at this when we were first
hearing about it as a replacement for training.
And I think it needs to be looked at more as complementary to training, you know, an aid
that helps to, you know, fill, to decrease the time it takes to learn certain movements.
So, like, for example, with karate, you know, I did karate as a kid, and a lot of the
classes that I had to learn, I wasn't actually hitting anything, I wasn't actually touching
anything, it was just learning the movements.
Now, the only thing that I would, like, be hesitant towards is how accurate the tracking
is on the fast movements, but, you know, technology is increasing day and night, so I assumed that
wouldn't be an issue.
But, like I said, it's not meant to replace the training for fighting, it's meant to be as,
like, an aid to assist in learning faster.
Same thing with, like, yoga, right?
You could definitely learn how to do yoga using VR, doesn't mean that you're a professional
yoga person, but you still would want to go to a yoga class with all your other mates
and learn yoga together, where the instructor's there to correct your form, like, physically
actually move you if you're not stretching properly, and it's an aid, it's not meant to
replace it, is what I'm kind of getting at.
Yeah, totally agree with you on that one.
And I think, you know, a good analogy for those that are listening of how kind of a virtual
world can apply to a real world in terms of training is if anybody has seen that new show,
what is it, Grand Tremiso or something like that, about the kid that, I don't know why
it's slipping my mind right now, about the kid, yeah, yeah, the kid that basically learned
how to drive these supercars, these F1 kind of cars, through simulation, through gameplay,
gameplay, because of how realistic the game was itself. And being able to apply that to
the real world, I mean, it's a great success story. So if you haven't seen it, I highly
recommend watching it, because it definitely is in line with what we're talking about today.
So just being cautious of time, you know, we're on the hour, but I definitely wanted to ask
one last question. And let me pull that question up here. Sorry, I jumped off of a thing. But does
anybody else have any questions for anybody else that they would want to ask? Or should I just go
with the last question here? Go for it, Cody, that's okay. We have a couple of questions in
within the community. There is a couple of like, actually technical questions, I think Star Lord,
Damien got quite serious, you know, more technical questions in terms of what bandwidth
does direct BI simulations require in the cloud. If anyone got the answer to this question, you can
type it in, in the comment section if you have it. I also whilst Cody's digging for his last question,
I wanted to remind you guys that you're super welcome to drop your social social media links,
and shill in comments. So you know, there are listeners within the space. And also there are
people who are lurking around our page. And they might come across your comments and click
and just to have a look and see what's the you know, where curiosity takes them. So please feel free
to drop your links and to drop any information in the comment section. So we save it for later on.
Cody, did you manage to dig the question? Yeah, yeah, I just had to find the tab. I got too many tabs open.
But yeah, so the question is, it's like, if we're basically kind of leaning more towards VR, AR, MR,
helping us discover new ways to understand our bodies and minds through through this new technology.
What are your guys's thoughts on the pros and cons of this kind of movement? Do we see it as a new way to
basically achieve self mastery? Or do we see long term effects to it? And what I mean by long term effects
is if I watch, you know, Miyagi, teaching Danielson, how to wax on wax off, and I come on to VR, and I start
learning how to do, do a little bit of this, and I feel the confidence that I can go out into the real world.
And I come across in a or Scott, will I, will there be long term effects to that kind of, kind of thing? Or do we
definitely see this as a new form of self mastery? Curious what your thoughts are?
I think Scott's concerns are pretty legit. You know, this does create the form of hubris in that, you know, you don't know what you don't know.
And so you can, you can only learn so much and so far within a virtual space, and then you take it out into the real world.
Yeah, I could see a false sense of confidence being an issue or, or over estimation of one's abilities. But I think this happens with with martial arts in general, I think that a lot of, you know, dojos, at least when I was growing up, you know, it was all about building confidence in children.
And, you know, like, I'm taking karate, I understand combat. And then you got in a street fight, and you got your, you got your ass handed to you. You know, you're like, what the hell, man, I was ripped off.
But, but, but, but, so I don't know if this is unique to VR or not. But I think it definitely offers some opportunities for people to extend what is possible within a dojo setting, to practice some some muscle memory on their own, to teach choreography to somebody across the world, and participate in, you know, movements together.
I think anytime we're moving the body, I think it's a good thing. I think we're, we've become too sedentary in our daily lives, especially those of us who are in the tech sector, like myself, sit in front of the computer for way too long.
So anything that gets us up and moving in my book is a good thing. So let's do it. Good luck, Abstract. I wish you the best. I hope to see some of your stuff on our end as well. I'd love to try it out.
I would also absolutely love to try it out. Because like, when first time Cody and Mike pulled me into the meeting with Colin, they were like, you are going to be so excited. Because I am, I am extremely excited about this new idea.
I do agree in the way with Scott about like, you know, contact, discontact and, and Jiu Jitsu is very, is a very, very specific training. But in general terms, I just, I will stand my ground. And I honestly believe that any, any sport, any movement that could be implemented into virtual reality training is good.
Is good for so many people, is good for so many people. And it would serve a lot of like, you know, specific cases. And it will bring a great purpose to the space anyway. So yeah. Any last words?
Yeah, I'd just like to say that, you know, as, as a few of you hit on, I see VR as an augment to training in all sorts of areas. I don't, I don't want to say that VR can replace in person training. I'll be the last one to say that because I, you know, I'm a strong proponent of getting out of the house.
Like you said, we have sedentary careers here in the tech space. So getting out, interacting with people, the, the, just the live interaction is so important to just our mental health and wellbeing overall. So I don't, I don't ever want to see a world where, where that goes away.
Um, I just think that VR has the potential to, to speed up our learning process, to, to just make, make training better. That's, that's kind of where I'm at.
Mark, any last closing remarks?
Yeah, actually, the more I'm like thinking about this, the more use cases are like coming to mind.
Um, as I'm like thinking in my brain, you know, things you have to do with your hands that are really crucial and important that are like, could be life and death, right?
But training is very hard to do without taking a chance of hurting somebody, right? Like, like I said, you know, signaling a crane, you know, people's lives could be in danger if you do it wrong.
But if you're doing it on VR and you're learning on that, that takes away that, that risk of hurting somebody, right?
What about signaling air traffic at, at an airport? You know, the driving guy that's doing a signal to the airplane.
So, if he's signaling on a VR airplane as opposed to an actual airplane, wouldn't that training be a lot more realistic and less dangerous?
Just, just another like use case where training is necessary, but might not be necessary to do it with an actual object.
I'm, I love those use cases. I'm, I'm going to look into those, those areas a little more because that's, that's really interesting.
You know, in the, in the industrial space, we're focused on these factories that fly people from Brazil and from all these other countries to come to the U S to train at the corporate headquarters on a new piece of machinery before they ship it out to the factory.
You know, we can ship the headset down to Brazil. We can ship the headset to wherever and, and they can learn how to use that equipment in their own country.
And, and, you know, again, like you're saying, save, save time, potentially prevent injuries before they're learning on the job.
So, um, same general principle there.
Well, I think I'm going to, well, if you're, if you're looking into doing the brain one, definitely hit me up.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I was going to say, I need to get Gabriel and, and you Colin hooked up so that people can watch their trees being planted after they played the, the new, new spirits game.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
We'll connect.
Let's connect.
Yeah.
So anyways, but, uh, anyways, uh, I think that pretty much wraps up our, our episode today.
Uh, Oh, Scott's back.
Scott, do you want to say anything or?
You're good.
Last few words.
Hey guys, go train jujitsu.
I know him.
I don't know.
Is he available for speaking?
I tried to pull him on the stage, but something is not working.
Yeah.
It looks like he might be having Twitter issues, but anyways, Scott, we love you.
We appreciate you coming on.
Uh, I know you were kind of the lone wolf on this, uh, this panel of tech experts here, but, uh, we do appreciate your insight.
It's always good to have a good little, uh, banter back and forth, uh, among friends in a safe space.
But, uh, anyways, uh, yeah, like I said, that pretty much, uh, I'm usually the devil's advocate, but thanks for taking one for the team, Scott.
No, that's awesome.
Uh, you did great today.
Yeah, you did great.
But anyways, uh, make sure that you give each of our panelists a follow.
They definitely deserved it.
They're, they're experts in, in what they do and, uh, definitely look up Scott and Colin and Mark and Gabriel and their projects.
And, and Scott will definitely teach you, uh, all of his mastery knowledge of, of his sport and, and jujitsu.
And, um, yeah, so with that, um, thank you everybody for attending and, uh, we will catch you guys on the next episode.
Have a great day, morning, evening, afternoon, wherever you're at in this world.
And, uh, we will talk to you guys later.
Thank you so much, everyone.
I really appreciate your effort, your time, and your dedication to these spaces because it is very important for me personally,
as well as for a lot of other people who seek education and try to, uh, get better every day, um, you know, learning something.
Um, a lot of appreciation for you guys for, you know, supporting this, uh, educational, uh, platform and, um, putting yourselves out there.
This is, um, you know, amazing.
And we, uh, we, we, we are happy to welcome you on any other spaces that we have lined up.
There is a lot of gaming stuff going on.
There is a lot of like general, um, web three space discussions are lined up.
Um, so yeah, uh, anytime you feel like talking, chatting and discussing things, um, drop me a message and I'll pick it up.
All right, that was a great outro.
Thanks, Anna.
All right, we'll talk to you guys later.
Okay, see you guys.
Have a great evening, day, morning.
Bye.
Bye.
