DMZM everyone. We are pulling everyone on stage
and we'll have a song soon and then we'll kick everything off
Yeah, I'm happy to get this started, talk about institutions, real world assets, on chain
It's the 24th episode, very excited to start this and dive into some really interesting
Yeah, everybody, go ahead and retweet, share with your friends, let's get this going.
And yeah, excited for today, we have some really big guests actually today.
This one should be a good one, as always.
Thank you to Quickswap for all you do.
Also Polygon, Smokey, are you there just to say hi?
Not at the moment, no worries, okay.
Let's go ahead and start introducing everyone, Rock, what do you think?
So usually, how it goes on all roads lead to Polygon, if you're new, is we like to take
about 30 seconds to introduce everyone, I just go left to right on my phone.
And then we dive into some questions afterward where anyone can answer them, you don't have
And we like to have kind of like a dynamic conversation free flowing.
But first, let's go ahead and introduce everyone.
First on my screen here is Tyler.
Thank you for joining today.
Hey, guys, great to be here as well.
Thanks so much for having me, Tyler Sherwin, co-founder of RWA.world, where we bring clarity
and transparency to real world assets.
So I'm super excited about today's topic.
Always enjoy the Quickswap, Polygon, all roads lead to Polygon episodes.
And this topic is especially interesting to me because we aggregate over 360 real world
asset projects on our database.
So we try to bring insights and information to our audience about real world assets.
So happy to share what we're learning and share any insights and intel as we get it.
We publish a weekly newsletter and try to stay on top of news events.
Your source for RWA News, Tyler.
If you guys, if anyone in the audience has looked at Tyler's reports, throw a thumbs
And if you haven't, you've got to check out RWA World.
OK, we've got a couple there.
I'm going to go ahead and pass the mic on over to Karbify.
I'm one of the co-founders of Karbify.
We developed world's first certified carbon debit and we are certified by the United Nations.
And we plant millions of trees per year.
We call them NF trees that we sell to the community and they get rewarded in CO2.
We are a member of RWA World, so that's good.
We were in the newsletter two weeks ago, I think.
So thank you for that, Tyler.
And I'm very happy to be here.
And I think I will leave the announcement up to you guys from a quick swap, but no, something
That's massive and very excited to hear more about, you know, your guys' mission.
It sounds like a great cause that you guys are doing and it's very important.
So I know that I've seen something come across the wire recently about a quick swap and let's
see here, real quick, something about carbon neutral with Karbify.
I need to read more into it.
I think there's a, yep, it's pinned up above.
So if anyone in the audience wants more information, you can take a look at that announcement.
I'll go ahead and pass the mic on over to Matt Bartlett.
Hey, y'all, thanks for having me.
I work as head of Web3 at VanEck, CEO of Segment, which is a VanEck Europe subsidiary.
So I happen to speak on VanEck's view of tokenization of RWA or what we're doing with Segment,
you know, wherever you all want to go, I'm up for it.
And thank you to Polygon for the invite to the spaces, thank you.
Thank you, Polygon, for inviting Matt here and great to have you here from VanEck.
It'll be very interesting to pick your brain.
I'll go ahead and pass the mic on over to Ray Buckton.
How we doing on a Friday?
Great to be here with y'all.
I am the head of research and content over at RWA World.
So I work very closely with Tyler on all of the fantastic content that we have coming out.
I see a lot of names here in the audience and on the stage that we have featured in the database.
So really stoked for what we have going on and, of course, what the entire industry has happening.
It is a very exciting time to be building in RWAs.
Thanks so much for having us.
Great to have you here, Ray.
And let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to ZwapX.
I'm very happy to be on board.
Thanks so much for the invite.
My name is Jacob Walker, and I'm on the PR team at ZwapX.
So ZwapX is a marketplace for tokenized luxury watches.
So we're really operating here to bridge the boundary for physical assets on chain.
And we're starting off with luxury watches.
So really happy to be here.
I'll get it straight here.
And I think I've seen you guys.
I've seen a lot of different watches kind of floating around on the timeline from different people in the polygon ecosystem.
So I imagine that some of those are from ZwapX.
I'm sure a few are, hopefully.
Yeah, I'm more of a new watch kind of collector.
A lot of my friends have been collecting watches.
So I'm trying to also kind of stay in line.
But it's really interesting to see all the really cool watches that are coming on the blockchain recently.
Yeah, I think this question of assets or liquidity on chain could be a good shout.
I can't wait to see all the opportunities that are going to come in the future.
I'll go ahead and pass the mic on over to Mr. Peter Fi.
Thanks for the invite again.
I'm the CEO of Ethernet Cloud.
But I'm also involved in a couple of other projects in an RWA space.
Definitely interested about the space specifically because on the hardware,
I see a niche for building up on real-world assets for computer hardware.
I've seen this in the past.
And I'm just really curious what you guys think about it or where this would go.
So thank you for having me.
And, yeah, I guess we've introduced everyone here.
So we can jump into the questions.
Today, the first hour is going to focus on kind of the more institutional side of this discussion.
And my hopes are to kind of paint a picture for our community here at All Roads Lead to Polygon
by kind of starting off with what are RWAs and then kind of jumping into what we should expect in the short term
of some kind of general questions.
And then I want to jump into the future.
And that will be the first hour.
And then we'll kind of have more of a free-flowing kind of next two hours after that.
So just to kick things off, maybe someone can just tell us what they think real-world assets are.
I would love to do this one, Aztec.
I'll kick us off real quick with a very simple definition.
So real-world assets are kind of a funny name for something that is really quite simple.
We simply define it as assets that exist outside of the blockchain.
And this can include a variety of different categories.
And that's what we're really focused on at RWA World is categorizing these different RWAs.
But a real-world asset is essentially some type of an asset that could be either a T-bill,
a commodity, or real estate or art, something that derives its value from outside of the blockchain.
So I'll contrast this with something like Bitcoin or Ethereum, which derives its value from the Bitcoin or Ethereum network.
So when you're looking at the tokens on coin market cap, you'll see Ethereum and Bitcoin right near the top there.
But you won't see a lot of real-world asset tokens except for the most prominent one that everyone's pretty familiar with, which is USDT.
So I would argue that stablecoins are actually real-world assets.
So if you're having trouble understanding real-world assets, you can think of stablecoins as a good example.
They are a coupon, a voucher, a receipt that is redeemable for a dollar in a bank account.
And that dollar in the bank account lives outside of the blockchain.
So the process of tokenization is really just saying, hey, let's create a digital twin of some type of real-world asset that derives its value from outside of the blockchain network.
And that's why people are really excited about real-world assets, because when you think about the total addressable market of just all assets in the entire world,
they're far larger than just the value that's secured in blockchain.
So I'll stop right there. That's kind of my view of it.
It's a digital twin and representation of a real-world asset, something that derives its value and exists outside of the blockchain, like real estate, art, physical art and things like commodities.
Perfect. Perfect. All right. I love that.
So I'll just go from that great explanation and dive right into my first question for everyone here.
And again, you don't have to raise your hand. We just like to have a nice, easygoing conversation.
Actually, before we jump right into my first question, I noticed that Jimmy joined us from Chainlink.
Can you take 30 seconds and just let us know what you're doing in this space?
And then we'll jump right into the panel questions.
Yeah, really appreciate it. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having us.
So I am on the product marketing side of Chainlink and leading our tokenization efforts and shaping the go-to-market approach for that.
And so we think we have a really big story to play here with some critical infrastructure underpinning pretty much all the data and movement of tokenized assets.
So excited to help dive into that and join the discussion.
Awesome. Great to have you here.
I know Chainlink is doing a lot in the RWA space.
Yes, definitely. And I think people are surprised when they some some people are surprised when they hear how much Chainlink is doing in the space.
It's not just an Oracle. They have CCIP and many other products.
So anyways, let's go ahead and jump into the discussion here.
So if you're if you're new, you're just joining in.
We're just trying to paint a picture about real world assets kind of focusing on the institutional side of things.
So we've kind of discussed what real world assets are.
And now my first question is, what should our industry expect to see from the blockchain real world asset category in the short term?
So you can relate this to your project or maybe this is just speculation.
But I know everyone here has great knowledge, deep knowledge on this specific category and what's happening.
So I'd like to pick your brain. Anyone want to start off?
Yeah, I'm happy to start off.
I think if I look at our own project, of course, we tokenize trees.
So they are real world assets and the CO2 they absorb.
And I think what you see is that the market right now, we are in a flow that we are talk all about Bitcoin and meme coins.
But I think the focus will shift and will shift to the real utility and our WAs and they will get more and more attention.
We saw yesterday with the BlackRock News and I think the more mature we are in this current cycle,
the more mature projects we see and RWA is perfect for that.
That's my two cents on it for this question.
Yeah, I think we're evolving away from the speculative meme coin craze is something that is fun and exciting.
But I think people will tire of this sort of nihilistic attitude that drives the price action of these meme tokens,
which often frequently, 99% of the time, don't have a lot of utility.
And when you look at sustainable real world cash flowing businesses that are moving on chain, that becomes a lot more sustainable.
So in the conversations we have with foundations and dows, they're looking to diversify their yield.
And one of the easiest ways to do that is with on-chain T-bills.
And just like the gentleman from Carbify was saying, we have Carbify in our database.
We have ZwapX in our database. We have Chainlink in our database.
We're aggregating all of these different projects because we believe that the RWA space is where the bridge between TradFi and DeFi is made real.
And you're seeing this with a ton of experiments that are happening in the space.
BlackRock recently tokenizing a fund on Ethereum, a public blockchain, not a private network.
It's pretty exciting and interesting to see.
And Matt here from VanEck, I'm super excited to hear from in terms of how he sees this space evolving,
because VanEck has been ahead of this in many ways when it comes to other institutional players.
I remember, Matt, I don't know if you're familiar with LPL Financial, but I used to be an advisor at LPL Financial.
And I would look over your reports that you guys were sending out, even as far back as like 2020 and 2021, you guys were publishing content on Bitcoin.
And so you guys have been super far ahead of it.
So I'm super curious to see how you guys feel about tokenization and real world assets and where it's headed.
Yeah, sure. Well, I guess a couple of things, you know, so from the perspective of an issuer, and this might surprise you,
but VanEck is probably low conviction right now, or at least in the short term, for tokenizing traditional investments,
mainly because of sort of low demand, fragmented liquidity.
You have a lot of regulatory requirements that have to be figured out.
And since, you know, you brought up working at LPL, you know, VanEck has a lot of different distribution channels all the way from, you know,
institutional foundations, endowments, family office.
You have your broker dealers, you know, your FA channel, which might be like Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, EBS Wells.
You might have your independence.
And then you have RIAs, registered investment advisors.
To some degree, you know, they're all at like a different point in terms of how far along they are in adopting the blockchain and certain opportunities.
As you would expect, you know, entities like family offices are probably ahead of the game.
Unfortunately, I would argue that broker dealers are probably pretty far behind.
You may or may not know this, but, you know, we did launch this blockchain, or sorry, this Bitcoin ETF earlier in the year.
And there were still some investment firms, but, you know, your typical wealth managers, I don't want to name them because they're clients,
but they're still not allowing their clients to buy the Bitcoin ETF because they're still in sort of education mode.
And so I think it's really important to sort of identify really the demographic that you want to sell to right now and what sort of products are interesting.
So given all that, we're not abandoning tokenizing, you know, different strategies.
And in fact, we are last summer, we put about a million dollars into a firm called L1 or L1advisors.com.
So they have this platform that looks a lot like DAP radar.
As a registered investment advisor, you could see your clients' holdings, their crypto holdings in sort of a self-custody manner.
And in fact, you can even make recommendations so that if the client does, you know, approve the transaction, you get paid.
But ultimately, we'll build some tokenized strategies that will be on that menu for REAs to recommend.
But that's going to take a lot of time.
I mean, even the number of REAs on that platform, it's kind of like it's slow, you know, for onboarding new clients for them.
Where we do see opportunity in the short term is really with the crypto natives, mostly the people on this call where, you know,
maybe you're heavy Bitcoin, you're heavy Ethereum, maybe you're holding a lot of the liquid JPEGs, you know.
So you've got a lot of concentration risk.
And so the way I see it, you know, I see like ZwapX here.
I love platforms that are tokenizing the real world assets that might be luxury collectibles, investment grade wine, things that might,
if you had some exposure to it, might even help to give you some sort of low correlated benefit to what else you're holding.
And of course, there's the tangible aspect that maybe you can even redeem for the item, which is pretty cool.
So that's kind of how we're thinking of it very broad.
I mean, we did just launch Segment.io on the 28th.
I'm happy to dig in there later.
But that's sort of our play in the short term for how we're going to introduce Web2, Web3 to these different tokenized opportunities.
Yeah, I've checked out the L1 Advisors platform and got to know the co-founder there.
And it's really, really cool platform.
And I think advisors are going to be playing a very meaningful role in making that transition.
What do you think of Larry Fink's comments around the Bitcoin ETFs being stepping stones towards tokenization?
He's on Bloomberg recently talking about how tokenization can, quote, eliminate all corruption in a trading environment.
What are your guys' thoughts on that?
Yeah, I want to address that.
But just going back to your LPL comment, when you were probably getting those reports from us, you know,
we had a product that was approved at LPL.
And if anyone here has ever been in a sales position, it's really hard to teach and sell versus just sell.
Like if I went into your office as an advisor back then and we just had a discussion about which large cap equity fund you should be using,
we already get that you should have exposure there.
So just like, is my fund giving you better performance, less risk, whatever.
But to go in and then explain blockchain, spend six months.
I mean, it was a really tough ask for our sales team just because it was almost like too early.
In terms of Bitcoin ETFs being a stepping stone.
Yeah, I mean, like what's different from the beginning of the last full market?
Now a lot of retail can now, of course, get in and have exposure.
It's funny, though, there's a lot of confusion about what the Bitcoin ETF is.
I mean, I hate to say this, but there are some advisors out there that think the Bitcoin ETF is like a basket of different digital assets.
They don't even they don't really realize it's just Bitcoin, you know.
So I think that the trick will be in terms of tokenizing and getting demand.
You got to find the assets that are sort of uniquely enabled by blockchain.
You know, you don't just want to tokenize everything like this.
This is like really one extreme, but it would be laughable.
But you could see it happening.
Somebody wants to tokenize like the Bitcoin ETF.
And then you were thinking like, all right, you're just adding more layers and fees.
But watch, that will probably happen and it won't surprise anybody.
But yeah, I just think you got to find the right assets.
And again, to my point, you know, Treasuries, I mean, Stablecoin, whoever brought that up earlier in their intro, like you nailed it, right?
I mean, that's a great use case.
But beyond that, I don't have a lot of, you know, we don't have a lot of clients that, let's say, hold more than 10 million who then want exposure to Treasuries.
In most cases, you could just buy the traditional asset.
It's better for now until we build out the infrastructure more and some things change.
Like in the US, we're pretty spoiled with our ability to access T-Bills in a brokerage account relatively easily,
which is why a lot of these products are, you know, excluding the US market.
Because the argument is that, hey, you've already got easy access to financial products.
You already have the ability to easily buy T-Bills.
You don't even have to do Treasury Direct.
You can actually do it from your brokerage accounts, which are easily to set up.
But the real interesting adoption of, you know, tokenized T-Bills is outside of the US, you know, with products like Mountain Protocol and others that are tokenizing them outside the US.
I am very happy to hear that Matt, that Bannock is interested in everyone here and the opportunities that I guess crypto natives could have in this category.
So that was really great to hear as well.
I'd like to also hear your take, Jimmy.
Again, you know, just about what we should expect in the short term for maybe like the institutional side of RWAs or just RWAs in general.
Yeah, this is a great question.
So I think there's two points I want to make.
The first is I think if you're trying to figure out what's happening next or where the trend is going,
the thing you should think about is like understanding that this exists on a spectrum of all these assets exist on a spectrum of like how much utility will tokenizing them bring.
And then where is the regulatory framework friendly enough for this to happen, right?
So some things are, you know, five, ten years out, probably, and some things are much closer to the pin.
We mentioned stablecoins, right?
So if you want to look at what's next, I think ask yourself where is a regulatory environment amenable to this and then what assets stand to gain the most benefits as well.
So I think that's a good framework to go into it more specifically.
I like to call them tokenization superpowers.
But if you ask yourself, like, anytime there's a new technology or new way of doing things like you want to know where the future is going, ask yourself, what can we do now that we couldn't do before?
Like, what does tokenizing an asset uniquely enable, right?
And so if you tokenize an asset, it makes things like maybe moving them across borders way fast, like way better.
Maybe it makes fractional ownership way easier.
Maybe it unites liquidity across the entire world, like anyone with a wallet can buy it, right?
Like these are the superpowers of tokenization.
And I think we need to understand that different assets are going to benefit differently from these superpowers.
So for instance, something that's highly liquid already, like, say, bonds and equities, that's not going to, you know, the superpower of maybe easy accessibility and buying them, right?
We just talked about in the US, you can already buy T-bills natively.
Maybe that doesn't apply to them, right?
But something like real estate where fractional ownership and access to a bigger market is highly desirable.
Like, maybe that's something that's really interesting as well.
Like, if you think about in today's world, like we, at least in the United States, we hire realtor to find a buyer for our real estate, and we literally pay them 6%, right?
But what if anyone with a wallet in the entire world could purchase this?
I could not agree with that more.
And it's a lot similar to how ETFs democratize access to investments more than their mutual fund counterparts.
And they allowed for smaller ticket sizes, and you had inter-day liquidity.
And that was a way to improve the profile of the assets that you could invest in.
And you're so right, like, tokenization does improve access to so many things like real estate.
There's a company called Fabrica Land in our database that tokenizes property and puts it into a trust that's controlled by the ownership of an NFT.
Meaning that you can purchase real estate in one on-chain transaction with a licensed transfer agent, which is, you know, Fabrica Land, and they actually have the deeds and everything recorded at the county and everything.
And that is an amazing use case for tokenization.
And you're right, like, maybe it's not as attractive for certain type of assets, but for others, it's super attractive.
Yeah, and just to, like, put a fine point on it, right?
It's really a pattern matching exercise of what, you know, what are the things that make something 10x or 100x better than, like, the existing rails today, right?
So that applies with real estate in terms of, like, fractional ownership and just doing things.
Imagine you could buy a property or fractionalize a property, like, as easy as you could by clicking a couple buttons on Aave, right?
I mean, this is where the world will go when you find what's 10 or 100x better than existing rails.
And then layer on that, like, where is the regulatory environment friendly enough to allow this to happen in the near term?
And I think between those two things, you can hone in on where the future is going.
And one of the things about the regulatory environment consideration, because, Jimmy, I think you really hit the nail on the head with your two points about jurisdictionality and then the superpowers for the asset in question.
I was, you know, the RWA world was fortunate enough to contribute to the token ERC3643 report.
And that is a flagship piece of technology that is going to make the tokenization of real world assets on compliant rails, regardless of your jurisdictional basis.
Much more turnkey and much more seamless.
And we're seeing a lot of this infrastructure start to reach a level of maturation where it's now deployable for institutional level products.
So it's really exciting. I'll put a link to that below as ERC3643.
And in terms of superpowers, that's a really I love how you phrase that because, again, our world, we have a categorical categories of taxonomies, as we call it, different buckets that we can place tokenized assets in.
And that's been incredibly helpful for making apples to apples comparison, since if you're talking about a tokenized T bill versus a tokenized Pokémon card versus a tokenized real estate, these are heterogeneous assets.
Making comparisons to them may be beneficial from a risk standpoint in a portfolio.
But if you're trying to compare like treasury bills or like real estate offerings in the tokenized landscape, that becomes a bit of an uphill battle.
You know, Tyler, you mentioned Fabricoland.
Lofty is another good example here in the U.S.
They're a U.S.-based company.
They're utilizing a Wyoming DAO with a smart contract as the actual manager for each pool.
It allows you as an American citizen to list your property, get fractional access to property.
Each pool is its own DAO.
So we're seeing a litany of various approaches come online from a jurisdictional legal compliance standpoint, but also from a technology kind of layer.
We're seeing that become less salient in the eyes of the actual entities that are tokenizing.
So, again, a really exciting time and really I love how you use the superpowers analogy. That's great.
So we're kind of pushing into my next question.
And so let me ask this question and then I'd like to pass this to ZwapX because we haven't heard from them yet.
And we are moving a little quickly today because I know I only have you guys on this panel for the first hour, some of you.
And again, I'm trying to paint this picture from start to finish on kind of where this RWA category is and ask some general questions and then finish it up about the future in the first hour.
So my apologies for moving things a little bit quicker than normal.
But my question for you is what opportunities does tokenization present for investors, both institutional and retail, and how can they navigate this evolving landscape effectively?
So I think it's very important to make the distinguish between financial assets and physical assets.
So with ZwapX, we deal with physical assets, specifically with luxury watches.
And the advantages of tokenizing a luxury watch, for example, having it in token form, really has to do with the instantaneous settlements.
Compared to Web2 platform sales, it takes up to three weeks to receive payments, whereas on ZwapX, since the watch is stored in a centralized facility,
where it's been authenticated and dealt with by our watchmakers, then the payment can be processed instantaneously.
And similarly, so if someone buys a watch, they want to have it on chain, they can have it on chain, they can sell it, they can do what they will with it, and they can also burn it too.
And by burning their token, that initiates delivery process and we deliver watches worldwide.
So the token, it's an ERC721 standard, so it proves ownership of the watch.
And for crypto natives, it's kind of useful so they can flaunt their NFT ownership of watches.
And at the same time, there are so many different ways you can take this as well.
We've been exploring partnerships. We have a recent one actually with Unlocked.
And this is going to allow depositors of watches on chain to unlock the full value of their watch so they can take out loans against their watch by using their watches collateral and deploy that into other assets.
So I think there's a lot of interesting things going on.
I'm really, really excited to be in this space.
That sounds very exciting and very useful, of course, and seems pretty seamless for the crypto native.
Alex, I see your hand up. If you want to just introduce yourself 30 seconds, then I'm guessing you're trying to piggyback off something was said earlier.
I am. Great to have you here.
Hey, thanks so much. I know I'm supposed to speak in the next hour, but it happened that I was able to catch up now.
Hey, Matt, good to see you. And, Rock, great crew here.
I'm a corporate and securities lawyer. I used to be at the SEC and a big firm.
And I founded two companies. I exited. I've been in blockchain since 2016.
And I work with a bunch of different companies, including one that is an exchange that deals with exactly this kind of thing.
INX with tokenized assets. We actually are in a point in time in the U.S. where we actually have the full range of things that you need to do in order to put together a proper securities offering.
And we have to remember that what we're doing here with a lot of these things are securities offerings.
But I want to point out that that's not a bad thing, right? It's not a bad thing to to tokenize something that traditionally was only available to a few people and can now be available to many, many more people.
And it's not a bad thing to say, well, we have to go through a different process. There are ways to do this that are not horribly painful and, you know, and and completely limiting.
The one thing I did want to add was this this jurisdictional issue is there is a like kind of a conformity of jurisdictions that's happening.
So 200 jurisdictions, including the U.S. and pretty much every jurisdiction that deals with cryptocurrency, we're all coming in alignment in terms of how we're dealing with a lot of these regulatory issues with cryptocurrency.
And so jurisdiction hopping isn't going to really be beneficial for the most part anymore, which I think also is a good thing because, you know, one of the things that that is driving a lot of the kind of stalemate that's happening in a lot of the big innovation right now in tokenization
and in in providing these types of assets is that people are scared to know what jurisdiction should I do? What do I have the right legal advice? Am I, you know, doing this right the right way?
And honestly, with with more conformity, you really just need predictability. So with with a little bit more regularity in this environment, I think we're all going to do better being able to pull this stuff off and not worry so much about wait, if I'm doing this offering and it's crossing this border
and but my servers are here, but my, you know, like I've got nodes all over this place, like where's the what regulatory scheme am I entering?
I think this is actually going to help quite a lot. It is going to actually take away one of the things that the core crypto community has an issue with, which is anonymity.
And we kind of, I think, are going to have to come to terms with the fact that anonymity is going to leave as financial growth happens, right, as our ability to finance peer to peer scales, our ability to remain anonymous to one another, or at least to the government is going to be reduced.
And I, again, I'm not sure that that's a bad thing because really, we can still allow anonymity in transactions, as long as that anonymity is only used as a shield and not a weapon.
And that means that if there is a reason to unmask somebody, then there's a way to do that, right? And that is there's a lot of DID solutions that are being built.
I think that that's also going to be incorporated. So all of these technologies together, I think, are coming to create a new form of what I think of as DeFi.
I did just put out a book on this, actually. And the, yeah, hey, hey, it actually it's out there now.
Awesome. I'm going to definitely check it out. It's unfortunate we weren't able to get polygon ag layer into it.
I know, I know. But hopefully in the update, in the update, I got to update it every like every three or six months or something. And hopefully we can put it in there then.
Yeah, that'll be awesome. I have a question for you, though, about the you said, so your opinion is that if we have privacy preserving things on blockchain, that there should be some kind of way to unveil or what I might call a back door
to if someone is a peanut or whatever company, I would probably disagree on that. And I would say something like let's look at something like signal should governments have back doors into signal.
And I guess, yeah, just in general, what's your take on this?
I don't know that there should always be a backdoor for governments to spy on us.
It's not actually for governments to spy. It's really so that people are accountable for their actions. So my biggest takeaway from my years here has been that the vast majority of people who are operating in anonymity on in projects and just in transactions are not actually criminals. Right.
There are a lot of reasons to want to be anonymous that are fair reasons. Like I don't I really get annoyed when I go and buy something like that, you know, a top at a store and they want my email and all this other stuff.
And I'm like, I'm paying cash. What the hell? You know, so there are a lot of very valid reasons to want to remain anonymous in transactions.
I think where you lose your right to anonymity is where you start violating other people's rights when you're a hacker, when you steal from other people, when you're conducting phishing, you know, and you're you're actually doing things to rob other people.
I think you lose the ability to remain anonymous and you and people have the right to know who stole from them.
I think that that is a very powerful thing that blockchain could provide that, you know, I don't think that it is the goal of blockchain technology, which is just, you know, basically a financial technology.
I don't really think that it's its goal to protect people and allow people to perpetrate theft unharmed. So I.
Of course, but the problem is by by giving this back door, you're essentially just opening it up so the government can do whatever they want.
And let's let's be real here. The government has violated our rights many times. I mean, Snowden was proven right in in a court. Right.
They said, yes, Snowden was right. Government broke the law. They lied to us. Right.
So in some ways, we need to protect ourselves. I mean, by the way, cash, they can't just like, oh, unveil your ID, your identity if you do something wrong with it.
So now we're we're going actually a step in a more surveilling direction than within with cash. If we go the route you're saying.
So there are legal protections, for example, like, you know, Apple knows who we are, but they enact a lot of different controls so that the government like they're the ones who actually prosecute the crime like the the cases to make sure that the government can't
open your phone without your OK or without some sort of probable cause. They're the ones who do all the privacy stuff, who say that you can't be required to open your phone or access technology when you're being held, but not under arrest or things like that.
They're the ones that do that. So just because it's available doesn't mean that it has to be accessible to the government.
The problem that we have here, though, is if we have a fully decentralized entity, then we have no one left to fight for our particular rights.
So that means that we'd have to have something like a DAO with the sole purpose of making sure that, you know, of basically being like, I guess, the ACLU of privacy rights on blockchain.
And I don't think that's a bad idea either. Right. Someone who's essentially sole goal is there to make sure that if the government or some other agency is trying to abuse the access that they could have if they had actual right to it, then someone is saying, no, you don't have that right.
And I don't think that's a bad idea at all.
I think we should also maybe differentiate between real world assets that are regulated and, of course, the anonymous environments that Alex is talking about and some of those different technologies and things.
When we're talking about real world assets, we are oftentimes, like you mentioned, talking about securities and there's nothing wrong with them being securities that are then tokenized.
And then, of course, there are other assets that fall under different jurisdictions as well.
And so when it comes to institutions who must know who their counterparties are, perhaps they can utilize tooling like ERC 3643 and others to help them completely interact with these assets.
But I'm also super sympathetic to Rock's points around, you know, freedom of association and our ability to build what we want to without infringement from the government.
We should have a right to freely associate and decide with whom we want to interact.
And if you do need to have that level of scrutiny and compliance, I think there's a lot of really cool tooling out there to allow for that.
So I do think that RWAs definitely open up this can of worms in terms of like, OK, we're talking about decentralized blockchains that now have points of centralization, right?
So like, you know, Circle's stablecoin, of course, they are a licensed money transmitter, which is a point of centralization.
And so, yes, although the stablecoin can interact with DeFi, you know, they have the ability to blacklist certain addresses and things.
So it's just a really interesting dynamic to see these two worlds collide.
Yeah, I mean, like look at with USDC, if the government did, I always forget the name, but the order where they confiscated everyone's gold in the United States.
I mean, if the government ever said, hey, we're confiscating everyone's USDC, it would be gone, right?
It was order 66, right? I'm just kidding. That's the Star Wars reference. 6102. I was making the Star Wars reference.
That was the order where the Emperor killed all the Jedi. Very similar. Very similar thing, right?
Yeah. So, you know, and you look in other countries. So let's say other governments say we need to put this because, you know, the United States government, we've got, you know, a more, I would argue, one of the best, if not the best.
But still, there are other so not also has its flaws.
But when you look at other governments, I mean, there are other governments and I think including maybe our own, maybe, that have assassinated people who spoke against.
What they, you know, what the government wanted, right? So that happens a lot, actually, in many other countries.
Imagine if, you know, Putin, for example, and who knows if he does or not. But it kind of seems like if Putin is putting a back door and saying, no, it's only if we subpoena you.
And then, you know, what do you think they're really doing in the background?
So I think as as like human beings, we need to take, you know, some of our rights into our own hands.
Amen to that opportunity to just ensure that the Department of Defense and the House housing and urban development can account for 21 trillion US dollars.
So always keep that in your back pocket with these kind of discussions.
These are these are all good points and and very interesting to kind of like you guys go back and forth.
A great, great question, Robbie, as well. I'd like to ask a different question here to kind of get some more alpha on, you know, where everything's going or where we see kind of like the future of this technology being utilized and things like that.
So if I could pass the mic on over to Matt again, and I want to ask you, when will we start seeing the tokenization of everything start to accelerate?
I mean, that's a great question. You know, in my in my role at VanEck, I'm fortunate in that we have this sort of robust digital asset team, but I'm the one who gets to build out our crypto native capabilities.
And so, you know, our first attempt at this really is with this business that we just opened called Segment, Segment GMBH.
We actually opened this entity up in Germany for some of the reasons that we were just talking about, not to jurisdiction hot, but I need a pathway for success.
And they have that right now.
You know, we're going to find out, you know, we're start we basically came up with this very unique lock and key model, which solves for all the issues where we think at least solves for all the issues with fractionalization.
And, you know, of course, we're going to start with hopefully getting the best web three assets to our platform and sort of democratizing access to those.
And then I'm in the midst of basically working with projects like Zwap.
And but some of them are on Ethereum.
Of course, we are we are deploying the polygon as we speak.
But some of these projects that are bringing the wine and the watches and and, you know, casks of whiskey and and other things that maybe might be interesting to have as a diversifier.
And we're going to see what the demand is, you know, and kind of see where that goes.
I have hopes of getting into tokenized real estate, a little different, you know, in Germany, tokenized real estate to crypto asset.
I need a crypto asset license for that.
The earliest I can get that is like June of next year, even if I'm first in line.
So I guess, you know, my thing is, if you've been wanting firms like BlackRock and others and Vanac, right, to get in, I think the reason why you want that, I'm guessing, is you want us to find a regulatory compliant way.
To get it done and then hopefully help to unlock the potential that Web3 gives us.
I don't know where it's going to go.
I don't know how long it's going to take.
I'm just trying to be I'm trying to lead the way and deal with some of the issues that all of you are also dealing with or or maybe that you're just hoping we solve so that others can follow.
But I guess that's how I'd answer it.
That's that's very exciting to hear.
I'd like to pass the mic on over to Joseph because we haven't heard much from you today, brother.
So if you would like to piggyback off that.
Yeah, I think and thank you for for passing it over.
So, Matt, I think what you guys do with Vanac as well as BlackRock.
You guys take the let's say the most legally, let's say, safe approach, which is great for positions you guys have with the companies and everything.
It's it's very hard to to navigate the ecosystem and the industry.
That's obviously because of regulatory uncertainty.
But as you mentioned, things are getting much more clear specifically in Europe on this space and with Mika coming up, I think a lot of clarification will come up in space.
And also, it brings up the new opportunity.
Also, I wanted to mention something I experimented on my side within our community.
Our project is very close to IT and technology.
And we see more and more the interest of tokenizing hardware that's being used for different purposes.
It's a bit different than the financial assets or from the financial markets.
So it's less, I'd say, less regulated, but they are more close to the physical space, more to the physical assets.
I'm also curious what is in your interest or what is your experience in this direction where it's, you know, like common assets like, I don't know, like oil or some common things that you can buy and sell on the market.
How is that tokenized? I know it's very already done on the community's market, so it's pretty much not much difference.
But I'm curious, what do you see, Matt or Tyler, on your side, on the tokenization, let's say, once from the market.
Like, what do you experience from a customer? Do they want to tokenize more of the communities or it's more of, I know, from my side, real estate, it's something big, as you mentioned.
That's because it adds a lot of the superpower that Jimmy mentioned about.
And the other assets are kind of already there. So I think it's not so much, but I'm curious about your experience as well.
And also, some of the novelty, like hardware has never been tokenized. If you invest in hardware, it doesn't really, it just evaluates in time.
But if that hardware is used, for instance, to, let's say, operate on various blockchains or validate or generate kind of what a miner would do or somebody running hard in that direction to generate value out of it,
it actually, that value can be spread around with, you know, with anyone having a piece of it. So this is another concept that I see forming or interest being built up around the regulatory that's coming up, the regulation coming up.
I'll take one part of your question. You mentioned the physical infrastructure piece. I think you should look into something called D pins, decentralized physical infrastructure.
Yeah, that's what we're building. So from that space, you know, this is what I come from, this real world assets, it's the physical infrastructure and people are more and more interested to do that.
We tokenize the computational power, but obviously our hardware affiliates are tokenizing the hardware because it only makes sense.
And this is, you know, it's moving in this space for this direction where I think this is becoming more and more approachable.
But from the other, because this was never on the market, like you cannot buy computers. I mean, maybe you can, but it's not very popular because them as a row without doing anything or any utility, they are depreciating time.
So it's not like buying a watch or jewelry, like what is doing, right? What makes it doesn't really like the value is lost.
So it needs to be put into something. And I'm curious, you know, what areas do you see from your side that are new and noble because this also builds up the way to other, let's say newer things that never existed before.
So I think that's sharing this kind of mindset. I think it's very useful. Yeah, that's a good question.
I'm not sure if I know you were asking Tyler or Matt the question. I don't know if you guys want to jump in. Alex also see your hand up.
Yeah, I think I'll quickly address one small part of his question, Peter. So new and exciting use cases. I mean, there's so many.
And that's why we built our website, rwa.world. So one of them that's really novel is tokenized uranium. The team uranium 308, they actually work with custodians that literally secure access to uranium.
And they built an SPV structure that allows you to literally KYC get onboarded with them and then literally take physical delivery of uranium with a tokenized asset. It's insane.
That's by far one of the most novel ones I've seen. We also came across a project tokenizing ammunition on the blockchain as well. So there's literally there's like no limit to some of the things that can be tokenized.
But then, of course, you can imagine it can start to get really absurd. And maybe there starts to be like crazy use cases that maybe are beyond. Yeah, I think the uranium needs a dollar to decide what happens with it.
Did you say take physical custody of the uranium? Yes, dude. I know. I know you guys. You should check out our Twitter space with the uranium team where they actually went through this and explained it.
It's on the RWA World account. I'll see if I can get a link and put it in the chat here. But yeah, it's crazy. There's some really big brains doing amazing things.
The ticker is you, not financial advice. Obviously look into these things and do some research. But what's really crazy about tokenization is you've got to remember your guarantees on the voucher, the receipt, the token that you hold.
They're only as good as the underlying legal assurances that come from that redemption process. Yes, you might be able to trade stuff on secondary liquidity and treat it like an asset speculation.
But if you're looking with Circle, they used to be retail users who used to be able to go to Circle and redeem for the dollars. Well, now they really only do B2B.
So the question becomes, hey, can I actually redeem this token for the underlying?
And I would love to hear from someone like Alex in terms of how you think about those or Matt. Because when you go to redeem this token, it's like, yes, you're doing an on-chain transaction.
But how confident are you that the underlying issuer, first of all, what's their regulatory structure? What's their jurisdiction? Do they have the ability to make good on this promise?
You hold a token, which is a liability of the issuer. What are the legal guarantees and things that are involved there?
That's what we're trying to get to at the bottom of our world is like, can we help map out these different security assumptions that people have?
So that way, people actually know what they're getting into when they buy a tokenized asset.
If I can just answer that part.
So for uranium, I believe all of the uranium supplies and transfers have to be monitored by the IAEA.
So this by itself would be a very difficult thing for anyone to try and do privately.
I believe that that's a violation of not just like federal law, but it's also international, like they would put you under alert at Interpol.
So that that I think might be very difficult. So, you know, you have to actually know what kind of regulatory schemes you're in in order to know whether or not something can actually be done.
But one of the things I can't do in a uranium ICO.
You know, I know you probably can.
I mean, there are people going to be interested in who you are, what you know, what terrorist organizations you know.
I'm raising funds also. My second ICO will be how to enrich the uranium.
Exactly. They're even better, even better. And and you're going to be interested in a lot of mechanical parts that go together and perhaps.
This is a joke just in case.
We did with the with the commodities thing. I think this is going to be a very interesting one.
One of the things that's interesting to note is, for example, like there's a very different approach that the Dutch and the French took to owning, for example, energy.
Right. The French opened up their ownership of of their companies to anyone internationally.
And it turns out now that their energy sector is primarily owned by non French, at least it has been.
Maybe that's changed in the last few years. But to my knowledge, it's still owned externally.
And that's been a big problem for them. The Dutch will not allow outside entities to own things like their energy.
It's very it's actually very hard for many Dutch companies to be owned by outside foreign entities by in any majority.
So so they maintain control of all of their their key key supplies, particularly right.
And for a period of time, and I would have to check to see if this is still going on.
But for a very long period of time, you actually couldn't be non Dutch and own a majority in any of those companies.
And these are the kinds of things that people do because they're concerned about what what would happen if someone took control of a particular core asset.
Right. These are also countries that remember were invaded not very long ago and know what happens when someone takes control of their supply chain and things like that.
So I think one of the issues would be, for example, for the commodities that you mentioned, I don't know that there would that you'd be able to very easily commoditize any of the sorry, tokenized commodities simply because the risk of foreign ownership is too high.
And I think that there'd be a lot of pushback that probably wouldn't be worth it.
However, I do think there's one commodity market that actually would be really interesting to tokenize, which is the energy market in the US.
So the energy market right now works on it's got a it's a smart grid.
And and right now one of the big issues that we have is how that smart grid is set up and how they have to purchase cities and localities have to purchase energy from other locations when they when they use all of the energy in their area, especially if they have energy that comes from a dirty source.
Right. And they don't have immediately available some clean source energy. They're required to purchase it from something else.
So what I would see primarily would be something like, let's say, having a bunch of local, you know, like kind of pop up energy sources, right?
Small sources that like, you know, on the plains, you'd have it be wind based in, you know, in some areas that'd be like, you know, you know, whatever clean energy source like water based or whatever, whatever clean energy source suits that region.
And then essentially using the blockchain to very easily add in additional local energy sources whenever they're needed.
So I actually think that the energy market is is dying for something this easy.
But in 2000, is this what you're thinking of? Is this like, I guess, like in 2017, Richard Bronson had, I think, invested in a company called Power Ledger.
And that's essentially what they were trying to do is just make a market for trading, you know, whatever electricity credits.
This is exactly what we have in the Netherlands. I mean, because I actually don't agree with you said in the Netherlands, the biggest energy company is owned by Norway, not by the Netherlands.
But we have we have few small islands and there you can own part of the energy and you can trade it with each other.
So there's like proof of concept right now being done in the Netherlands with what you are proposing. And it's pretty good.
It's pretty good. It works good. Lots of lots of the community members on that island participated and they can now trade or sell or or use each other's electricity.
So putting that on a blockchain would really open it up, wouldn't it? Yeah, they do.
And let's say you have a. Oh, they're using blockchains. What? Yeah, they're using blockchain. Yeah, it's called the Dutch.
It's got two tokens. They are they are funded by the Dutch government. They are exploring.
That's why that's why they asked us to to explain more about the carbon debits on the blockchain because it offers full transparency.
And that's and I heard, I think, Matt saying it in a few minutes back that RWA need transparency.
I think that's one of the core things why we tokenize RWA is to give the transparency that is lacking in a lot of other fields.
So, yeah, that was my. Yeah, and you're from you're from Carbify. Cool. So, yeah, we just partnered with you guys.
Quickswap did. And yeah, Quickswap's now carbon neutral. And, you know, excited.
We got some some of your liquidity on the decks and getting you some volume. And yeah, cool stuff you guys are doing.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's very good. I think it's awesome. And it makes sense to partner with Quickswap in this.
And the cool thing is our whole goal, why we started coming from the first place was to give that transparency.
We hated the fact that there are so many carbon projects, carbon credits that that I mean, just ask them,
where's the tree that absorbed the CO2 you are now offsetting and ninety nine point nine percent cannot answer that.
And we can link it back. We can link back the kilo of absorbed CO2 to the tree. It's all monitored on chain, on polygon right now.
And so it's amazing to give that transparency to all the institutions because they are the ones that need to offset the carbon footprint.
So we're getting a lot of attention from those institutional even Microsoft, for example, and talks with them.
They say, super awesome. So let's start more and see how we can integrate this.
I just got to say a shout out to you guys for being so transparent about it. And I feel like tokenization is so perfect for the carbon offsetting stuff,
because there's so many scams out there in black boxes in terms of like, what am I actually buying?
Am I actually offsetting my carbon? And then there's also this huge problem in the industry, which is double spent.
You might buy a carbon credit that you think is being used to offset your usage, which has already been sold to somebody else.
Oh, my God. The biggest problem out there. They sell green. I mean, they were like a few projects that first retire the carbon credits in the real world and then tokenize them on chain and sell them again.
Yes, that's I mean, that's why we use the whole blockchain to to burn them out of circulation.
So there can never be double spending and never be double counting because we do everything, but that's how you avoid double spending.
And this is the only true way to make sure that you are actually offsetting your carbon footprint with trees or with CO2 that that is really there and not like all those projects.
For example, Southpoles in the news in the Netherlands last week, there was like 95 percent of their carbon credits were not backed by trees.
How can you? OK, OK. Wow. That's not possible on chain. It's impossible.
So that's why we did it. And I think I know Yap will take over from me because I have to go.
But he has problems with this clarify account. So maybe you'll join on this private account to learn just so you guys know.
Thank you, William. And I also want to point out that LJ has joined us.
Jana has also joined us and Kevin. So welcome to All Roadsy to Polygon.
And yeah, the first hour we've kind of been talking about kind of painting a picture of where the space is today, where it's going.
I'd like to kind of ask a different question. Maybe I can pass the mic to one of our new panelists here.
So this question is, how do you envision the relationship between traditional financial institutions and the emerging blockchain based platforms in the context of asset tokenization?
LJ, if you'd like to take this. Yeah, definitely. Thanks for thanks for having me. I'm excited to be part of the panel.
So for those who don't know, I'm LJ. I lead Courtyard, which is a platform for tokenizing collectibles.
So primarily Pokemon cards. We're trying to bring the fun, the fun into collecting and to trading for traditional collectible assets because that market is quite illiquid.
So to give you an example, if you're looking to buy a card on eBay, you have to wait for that card to come to you.
And it takes like a few weeks. Maybe it gets lost in shipping. You have to take it, relist it and resell it.
So it's not as liquid as having an NFT being traded within a second anywhere you want in the world.
And so how we do things is we take those assets, we store them in vaults with a secure partner called Brinks.
And then you can trade the NFT and whoever owns it can redeem it. And so talking to it's quite interesting.
I've been talking to a lot of big financial institutions and a lot of like hedge funds or larger, larger funds like family offices and so on.
Are looking to put some part of their portfolio into a different asset class that's not correlated to the stock market, crypto and so on.
And so collectibles is a great way to do that. But right now there's not really a way to provide that's like super highly liquid market.
And that's what we're trying to bring. And we're still not there yet when it comes to the amount of assets we can have on the platform.
But I see a world in the future where because we're on blockchain, all the infrastructure is there to provide that.
And so you could have a hedge fund just deciding to put $10 million on collectibles and then they would look at market pricing for those assets and deploy that capital instantly within the blockchain.
Like you could have perps trading for traditional asset class and so on.
So I think we're just at the very early days in the beginning of the financialization of traditional collectible, which companies like StockX have tried to do for sneakers.
But this is kind of like on steroids, if you want.
And then there's another part, too. Courtyard is such an amazing platform. Congrats.
There's another part, which is like the secure storage where like if you're somebody who has a token, a very valuable Barry Ruth card, you don't want to keep it in your garage.
And risk flood damage, right? And you guys work with Brinks, I think it is to secure assets off change, right?
Yeah, that's right. So Brinks is one of our investors. So that it was at a very early day when we started Courtyard, we realized like you need to trust somebody to store your collectibles.
Like those are high value assets. Why would you start a startup? Why would you trust the startup?
And so we reached out to Brinks who like it's the biggest brand name in security because you see those armored trucks everywhere you are in the world.
They're always, I live in New York, I see probably twice a day a Brinks truck.
And so we were able to get Brinks to invest in us and have actual team members inside of the vault hired by Brinks because there is security compliance on that.
And so we are able to store those assets in a very secure manner. And now you can trade it from like New York to Japan to Tokyo to Paris within a second.
And so that's great because we see it opens up the market to a much more global way. If you just want to collect digitally, you can do it now.
Interesting. Did anyone just see this? I forget who just did it. What is it? Watch your guru or something? No, Bitcoin Magazine just in.
BlackRock's head of digital assets, Robert Michnick says, quote, for our clients, Bitcoin is overwhelmingly the number one priority.
I don't know what the context is, but nice little sound bite from BlackRock. Number one priority.
Isn't that just their recent interview that he just did? I'm not sure. I'm just reading it out of context.
Yeah, I love everything you guys are doing there, LJ, at a courtyard. It's very interesting and I'm fascinated by the opportunities that are going to kind of come out of all these new technologies.
I guess in general, I don't know if anyone wants to kind of piggyback off that initial question.
Maybe one thing to talk on that what's very interesting with RWAs is there is a market of those assets outside of the blockchain.
And so we're working hard on pulling transaction data. It's like you need kind of an Oracle to bring those data in the blockchain.
For instance, the cards we're selling are selling like there's 60,000 cards being sold on eBay every day.
And so can we match our card to bring that data in so that people can have an accurate view of what's the pricing?
Because it's not like the whole market is not on the blockchain there. And so having a sense of what's the value of those RWAs outside of the market gives you a sense of how am I going to spend for it?
How much am I going to spend for that asset? And so those are like kind of new challenges that were not really there before, which we're working on. And it's kind of exciting.
And again, we're starting with one category, like trading cards, because who didn't grow up with trading cards or Pokemon cards?
And that's kind of like nostalgia is a really powerful feeling. So it's a great way to go back to what you used to collect as a kid and seeing how it grew in value dramatically.
But anything is possible when you talk about collectible. And so that's what's so exciting. You can have sneakers, get watches, like any sorts of collectible is possible.
And it's just a very, very early days. We have to start with one category first, but we will expand to various one afterwards.
I would like to just add when we're talking about what is the relationship between traditional finance and tokenization or what we talk about really DeFi, right?
Decentralized finance. This is literally like the topic of my book. And this is, I think, the future. It's so powerful and for a few different reasons.
Right. One is that traditional finance has ignored huge, huge segments of the world for various reasons.
The second part is that the collateralization aspect of this kind of real world asset, you get to use 100 percent of the value of the asset as opposed to what banks use, which is 20 to 40 percent of the collateralized value of an asset for financing.
So the actual ability of people to finance using the assets that they have is going to expand incredibly.
The biggest part, I think, is that we'll have competition, which I think is a good thing.
I mean, this is the thing that I think when we talk about alternatives to fiat or things like that, it's not one or the other.
The fact that I mean, this is a pure capitalist thing. When you have alternatives, both systems do better.
So it's really good if one has trouble or one is failing, that people aren't hurt because they have an alternative to turn to.
The same thing happens when you have two financial systems or two ways to drive finance for people to be able to fund themselves.
You have two different systems where one is going to have to open up tremendously in order to compete with the other.
And we're also looking at a world where jobs are declining, right?
The job market data that you look at when you see the Fed is actually based on the number of jobs that are available, not the number of people who are willing and able to work.
So when they say it's a tight job market, that's based on the number of jobs available, not based on the fact that all the people who are willing and able to work are working.
So it's from the employer side. And we're going to notice over time.
Yeah, they spin those numbers so many ways. It's ridiculous.
I have to say about that, but I'm going to withhold the rant right now.
The issue that we have is that the number of people who are going to be employed over the future because of things like AI is declining, right?
And that is the point of technology, right? Technology has always replaced human labor.
And humans have found other jobs within the new labor schema, like the new technological schema, but fewer jobs, right?
And populations have expanded. So this is just happening at an extraordinarily high rate.
If we don't provide people the alternative of being able to fund their own endeavors, what is our alternative for all of these people, right?
What exactly are we planning on doing in exchange if we're saying, well, we're not going to employ you and banks aren't going to fund you.
What exactly is our plan? We don't really have one.
So I feel like this whole plan of moving things towards different ways of financing, ways of using your assets to be able to create new additional assets, growing assets.
I think that is actually really the only way that we can progress in the future and still make sure that there's no social revolt.
And I know that that sounds extreme, but it is one of those things where we have to look at what exactly is happening to people.
You know, since the 80s, we've had this sort of bifurcation in economic growth versus the salaries of the people who are actually creating the productivity that creates that economic growth.
So over time, what ends up happening is you have people who own assets and manipulate those assets to create greater wealth.
And then you have the people who are doing the work to generate the wealth for those assets.
If those people don't also own assets, then they're just going to be left behind economically.
So I love this ability to create this new class of wealth.
And that is where I think that like all of this is going.
I mean, I'm personally like a huge fan of everything DeFi, not really the mess that we have right now so much,
but this ability to finance our own future with real world and digital assets and the ability to essentially finance ourselves using 100% assets.
And we can do things like instead of collateralized debt obligations, we'd have collateralized asset obligations, right?
You can package them and resell them. You can do all sorts of things with them.
We can create complex financing within this new sort of regime.
And I think it's very exciting personally.
Yeah, so I was actually just going to jump in here really quick.
We're actually about to start the next segment of the show.
It's called, you know, this one's all road leads to polygon.
But we're doing something called all roads lead to Pokemon.
And honestly, that's kind of what I wanted to ask about, bro.
Like I've literally been collecting Pokemon cards and different trading card games since they came out.
Like I was in Toys R Us buying first edition packs.
And like if you take all of the trading card games, like the big ones, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic the Gathering,
throw sports cards in there and have a big platform that can be the newer version of eBay with everything tokenized.
Bro, like I'm telling you, that's more volume than what we see in NFTs.
I personally think that's something that could possibly attract institutional capital.
I mean, I want to ask LJ.
I mean, bro, like when I see you, I instantly think Pokemon.
You don't even need to have Pikachu in your PSP.
Is that something you guys are thinking about?
So if you look at the card market overall, it's a 40 billion plus market just in cards alone.
So the trading market, how much cards is being traded on the second hand in like in the world every year.
So it's a massive market and it's just one small category.
Then you have comic books, you have video games, you have sneakers and so on.
One thing we realized is right now our audience is really the Web3D gen and the Web3D gen like 2D gen.
And so we see a great way to like drive adoption is to make it fun to collect rather than just buying something and having in there.
So number one, we need to educate them.
So give them like, what are you getting?
What's the market value on that card?
And we do that with either drops and we just released.
If you go to courtyard.io, there's a new vending machine that's there.
And it's essentially similar to a vending machine.
If you go to a shop, you don't know what you're going to get.
You pay $25, you get a pack.
It opens it instantly and you see the cards you get.
And you might get like a lower value card.
The vending machine is set at average prices.
The average prices of the packs are the average price we're selling.
And you might get like a $200 card.
And instantly, what people are loving is we do instant buyback, which is possible.
Like anywhere, you would never find an instant buyback.
So we send an offer of bids to a card at 70% of the market value if you want to liquidate instantly.
So maybe you got a great card.
Like you got a $100 card.
And so we see that like blockchain really enables us to create a much more like fast and impactful
way to provide liquidity to the market.
And so think about this, like this is how we bring them in because it's fun.
You can sit at home, open a pack, see what you get, sell it back, and then like move on with your day
But like this is how we bring them in.
They start to get more into cards and like buying and selling those cards.
And next thing you know, we have so many cards on the platform that institutional player would
want to put money in this.
And that's really what it gets to the next level, where you create kind of like this new stock
market for collectibles, essentially.
Bro, I'm so bullish on that.
I see Aztec throwing up emojis.
Aztec, what's your favorite Pokemon?
And don't Google something.
I'm first speaker, if you can hear me from my accent.
My favorite Pokemon is Onix in French.
Like, you know, this big snake that has like a lot of rocks on top of it.
I don't know how you call it in English.
I know all the Pokemons in French, though.
Yeah, that's how we call it.
You know, so I come from the the very beginning days of Pokemon.
I don't know any of the new ones, but I I know I think I was collecting even like
the original G like Japanese trading cards.
So, you know, I only know the first ones.
Hunter was one of my favorite ones.
I always like the psychic kind of darker kind of Pokemon.
That's so close with your PFP.
Gengar is the most popular by far in our community.
So whenever you say Gengar, like people are snatching it up.
And it's funny because there are some some cards that are like error card
where they were like not politically correct enough.
And so I think there's one with Gengar.
And so it's an error card that like people are like the value goes crazy.
Because it was just produced for like one batch and it's super rare.
Yeah, so I think there is one with Gengar.
It looks like he is peeking behind like the skirt of a character on the card
And so it's super rare now.
But yeah, it's funny how so many different cards exist that we didn't know about.
Mine's got to be onyx too, just because everybody whenever I introduce myself,
people always think I say Brock, and they call me Brock.
That's the gym leader, Brock.
My favorite has to be Ancient Mule.
I'm gonna sound so cliche saying Charizard.
Hey, those are the best rare ones.
So I wanted to say that, you know, but like I like it's either Charizard or the psychic ones, you know, so that yeah, that's it.
Everybody wants to say Charizard.
But we should probably say Snorlax.
I feel like he was one of my strongest Pokemon in the in like the Pokemon Game Boy games, like Red and Blue.
Yeah, he was like level 30.
Good times and much love, David.
Always great to have you here on this show.
Oh, also, Dstore has joined us.
I believe I have mentioned everyone that has joined us just recently.
Here, I'll ask another question.
And I want to throw this to someone that hasn't spoken yet.
So, Jana, how might tokenization reshape the concept of ownership and the property rights or and property rights in the digital age?
Anyone can kind of piggyback off that.
So, I guess, in my opinion, I think with ownership, especially when you transition on chain with real world assets, the settlement time becomes instantaneous.
So looking into kind of like financial assets, you often see with clearing houses and stuff.
Sometimes you have T plus two, T plus three settlement times, and that creates a lot of fragmentation.
So, having this instantaneous settlements is really beneficial for preventing some of these clearing houses and stock traders or financial asset traders from accidentally going short or encountering liquidity issues.
So, I think that's very important.
Anyone else wants to piggyback?
I see Dstore your hand up.
And if you're new to all roads lead a polygon, guys, what we try to create is just a free-flowing conversation.
So, you don't have to raise your hand.
If someone finishes their point, you know, it will be polite.
But sometimes you do have to kind of throw your elbow in just to get a point across.
But feel free to jump in wherever you like.
Dstore, I saw your hand up there.
No, I was just going for the intro, but I guess to add a little bit.
I'm not in the scope of real estate, per se.
The biggest thing we're focused on is more of like the attestation.
So, like the verifiability of these assets and utilizing more of like the elements of blockchain, not necessarily like specific protocols or whatnot.
It's just like digital receipts at the most basic metadata is what's really important to hold this attestation that's not immutable or that is immutable.
And, you know, creating these parameters around it that allows those who have purchased it for the ID KYC solutions to be able to like have this attestation to access.
Do you think that do you think that like I imagine that all luxury goods and any like Pokemon cards, all whatever, purses, watches, all of this stuff will have a QR code that's attached to the blockchain.
Because I mean, isn't that and that's one of the things that Mr. Our friend, Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary is doing with his watch, watch attestation.
Well, the biggest thing is already the QR code I want to add here because QR codes are actually able to be hacked and manipulated on the information is accessible.
Say if you were having like an RFID or something or most QR codes, like we do use attestation with QR codes, but custom like web to web three kind of interface with like landing page and whatnot that can be changed, you know, through the, you know, particular owner of this portal.
But yeah, the most QR codes that we've seen are pretty accessible by most people in that.
But I'm talking about something attached to an NFT or some kind of NFT.
You know, when you buy a purse, if you want a real purse, you're getting the NFT too.
And if you don't get it, you know, it's not real.
Yeah, that's what we're doing. We bring digital twins that have correlated properties to it that could live on beyond it.
Say like wearables in the Metaverse or like AR functionality, but TikTok shop and digital twins.
Is that that's what we're calling this?
So digital twins is a has already been existing and so allows for like, say, an infrastructure project to create some type of blueprint that could be used for the physical product or project, per se.
So it's just like a way to attestation.
You know, like I mentioned, like it was an Aztec with the ERC or Aztec ZSwap with like ERC 721.
It's like that's the attestation.
But then accessibility is what those digital twins give.
But like for us, it's more of like immutable.
If you make another transaction, it can live beyond it.
It could be a redeemable.
It could be correlated like a like a soulbound, you know, Lamborghini has with rev.
There's, you know, there's products being issued right now that are like beyond the scope of physical assets, you know, utilizing digital twins.
You know, we did it with Discovery Channel selling the first digital asset on television in the Metaverse and then, you know, kind of building that scope around like actual products like, you know, the merchandise and whatnot.
But yeah, the really basis is that the metadata is very important for attestation.
And a lot of people are kind of moving with the idea of that having NFTs is the answer.
But unfortunately, NFTs are kind of the last case scenario of what digital twins are.
It's just like the basic usage of like metadata.
And then beyond that, you can do modularity, you know, music, movie, video, schematics, documents, all that.
Like those can be added as features.
But, you know, none of that needs to be a NFT per se.
So we need like abstract terminology, you know, this would have saved my maybe helped save my Pokemon cards.
My I had I think I think I had all hundred and fifty or minus three or something.
And, you know, crazy collection when I was young and some kids stole them.
Couldn't have gotten the, you know, NFTs with them.
Maybe wanted to steal them because they wouldn't be worth as much or whatever.
I see Jana has had her hand up.
Did you did she introduce yet?
I'm not willing to like go into the mirror, to be honest.
I have kind of I panic when people start to talking into, you know, both at the same time.
And then my English becomes Portuguese in my mind.
And then it's very difficult.
So sorry for being like, you know, the hands up.
But no, to be honest, I have been listening since the first hour.
I just couldn't join in the beginning.
But I was so excited to be hearing everybody.
And I also was looking to say some things.
But I definitely want to try to say some right now.
But just to introduce myself, I'm Jana.
I have been working with so many products.
I've been doing so much right now, more into the content creation side.
Also trying to be the bridge between Brazil, Latin America and the international.
But of course, being an international woman voice, trying to educate people into many different
chains and many different communities as well.
So this is the part that I was I was really looking to say this because I think we were
talking about minerals before because I am a mining engineer.
And one of the things that got me like super crazy and excited like I was
already like for some years in the ecosystem when I found this first project
that they were doing the tokenization of the process, the processing part of the
There is an example, I think is Saphira, that they are tokenizing the whole process of
Sorry, because I have never talked about my my course in English.
So I just know the importance.
But yes, this is really mind blowing and gets me very excited because as I was, you
know, as I am an engineer into this area, I know how this is problematic.
And I think it's a very important economy, you know, talking about this in
specific, like we have so many minds in the world and many of us are still not
even understand about what really is a mining.
And without mining, we would not be able to have basically anything.
So that is even very, very funny.
And now we are here talking about these things with blockchain and imagining
mining, which can long like 30, 40 years, having one of these moments like really
tokenize and having people from imagine the same city, the same country, being
part of the, you know, the rewards of that stuff is really is really amazing
and something that I would love to be part if I would have been, you know,
looking to be back to the mining engineer side, which I'm not.
But it definitely is something that makes me excited.
And also, I think we can even be talking about how mining like into the web to end
in the real world, how much we have problems, right?
We have people that are saying they are completely against mining because,
you know, the environment and all of that.
But people don't realize that we need minerals for everything, everything.
Even our water is not more like completely just water.
We need to put some minerals that we are miners are mining from the nature.
And, you know, with this kind of education of what is mining and then how many
problems we have because it's all corrupted right now.
We have so much money into this area, so many countries where you see they are
poor or they are already rich because they could get so much out of their miners.
So, I mean, sorry, because I am definitely I am, as I am an engineer, like,
But now, like Webtree is my new life, is my new home, I would say.
But I wasn't crazy because I think someone was talking about uranium and
something regarding tokenization.
So that is really amazing.
And I think the future of mining could definitely be like having
addition, you know, the tokenization part.
That would have been definitely amazing.
Jenna, you're going to pick up some some uranium, some tokenized uranium.
Just to have a little bit, just because that sounds awesome.
So I want to add that we actually our first scope for our project was selling
Opals, and we do have a mining location in Yowah in Australia.
So that's kind of that's great that you're focusing on minerals.
So that's very important.
I'm looking for blood blood Opals, you know, like the blood.
I heard the child labor ones go for a premium.
Producer, please, please get up.
I did want to mention about property rights.
I'm going to have to take off very shortly, but I did want to mention about
There's a couple of really interesting things to note about this.
We have to talk about different kinds of property rights.
Like there's property rights in terms of like personal goods and real
estate and then property rights like ephemeral rights, like real,
like intellectual property rights and things like that.
And one of the things about blockchain is that it's much stronger.
One of the biggest problems with property is ownership.
And there's gaps in ownership from real estate to personal property.
If someone steals something saying, that's mine.
You know, like, well, this could establish definitively.
It also establishes like there's a one trillion dollar counterfeit
And and LVMH and and what is the other one that really they're
LVMH is main competitor that does other luxury brands.
I can't remember it right now.
They they combine forces to to use blockchain and and and chips
essentially to to try and break up this counterfeiting industry to make
sure that you can actually tell what is actually genuine right in luxury
And this is something that's going to go on.
It's going to just expand.
And I'm hoping that in the secondary markets, especially things like,
you know, like in StockX and the real real and, you know, Poshmark
and all that, like they're going to require that you have something
registered on the blockchain in order to make sure that that that's
actually a genuine article and not something counterfeit before you even
So one of the biggest problems that we have in property are conflicting
Eat from things like, well, the survey said this, but you built your garage
here. Well, it's very easy to see.
Where is the property line?
Where is you know, what does a person X own?
How long have they owned it?
Does someone else have a creeping right on something like all of that stuff is all
you know, blockchain solves all of that.
Is there a gap in ownership?
Like sometimes somebody has property rights and they didn't actually put it
into the register, the land register.
Well, that doesn't help anybody.
And you have to have something called a quick claim deed.
That doesn't help because basically you get your rights as you found
them and you hope nobody comes in with a better right than you have.
You know, that now all your rights are basically nothing.
If someone comes in and goes, wait, wait, I have a better deed than you do.
The one big issue that we have with all of that is transactions.
And this also happens with intellectual property rights. Right.
Intellectual property rights are great because you can siphon off
different rights and and give some to some people and some to other
people and make them temporary or permanent.
All of that is trackable.
The problem is off-chain activity.
And so eventually what we're going to need to do or just have off-chain
monitoring agencies that just look and see like a somebody like like what
happens right now with, for example, franchises or music or whatever.
You have you own a right to some music.
You know, you're you're you have, you know, something on your
your copyright or whatever.
And and there are agencies now like ASCAP that listens to whether or not
you're playing something and you didn't pay for a licensing right.
That's basically what we're going to need to do.
And actually, those PROs are very likely to turn into those services
that what they primarily do instead of doing anything with distributing
money, because that's been their biggest problem in music alone.
Two hundred and fifty million dollars are not paid in royalties.
None of that happens with blockchain. Right.
The money will automatically be paid.
But but what what happens is is this off-chain activity does have
So I think they're probably going to end up turning into monitoring
agencies that can do things like put like cease and desist orders
out and stuff like that that we're still going to need.
We're going to need something that monitors the activity, making sure,
for example, that you don't have somebody who's trying to claim rights
that they don't have, somebody who's trying to convert personal property
that they don't have the right to or something like that.
But being able to confirm that they don't have that right is going
So it's like a lot of court cases that would ordinarily require a ton
of proof in court could be handled like in a in a hearing in a
Show me that you own this.
I can't. It's you know, it's on chain.
I don't I don't have the wallet for that.
Well, okay, then you don't have the right. You did it illegally, right?
So it's going to be basically just proving that the incident
happened as opposed to the incident happened and you didn't have
So, you know, there's I think that that's pretty much where the
But anyway, for those of you who are going to be at NFT NYC,
I look forward to seeing you.
I will be speaking there.
And for anybody else who's interested, I'm you can actually
look me up and see on my website what I do.
I'm really looking forward to trying to meet anybody in person
because that's actually why I want to go to this event is just
so that I can meet some of the very cool people that I've met in
Always great to have you here, Alex.
Thank you for all of your thoughts.
And I love how you just go directly to the question at hand
It seems like there's just nothing you don't know.
I think you've been on so many different topics.
And so, yeah, thanks for being here.
Alex, how long have you been in Web 3?
You know, coming from being an SEC attorney, when was that?
And when did you start in Web 3?
And then, yeah, we'll let you go here, too.
And I came here originally to build a financial product
because there's a group of people that were...
They basically have asymmetric information.
They get all of the bid and ask information,
and they make their profit on the spread,
but they pretend like they're geniuses in trading.
And you probably know who these parties are, right?
They're very well-known, Citadel.
Like, those parties are protected,
and they're not actually monitored
the same way that other parties are.
Like, they're not treated as though
they're basically market makers.
And so they act like they're geniuses,
but they have unfair advantage in the marketplace.
And so when I was at the SEC,
I tried really hard to get them regulated.
And I was basically brickwold.
And so I was like, well, this just blows.
And so after I exited my company, I was like,
And I was like, oh, I know.
I'll screw these companies over.
And blockchain had come out, and I thought,
okay, I'm gonna build it here,
because this is a great technology for it.
And the problem was, at that point,
it was only Bitcoin and Ethereum.
And I was like, well, I can't build
a financial marketplace on this yet,
because we didn't have any layer 2s
And so we started coding, and then at the time,
I was just like, this isn't gonna happen.
All the nos were basically like in the US.
So there was no way to do anything
that was remotely equitable for anyone else.
So I was like, well, this isn't gonna work.
But at the time, I was one of the few people
who understood operations and regulations.
So I ended up speaking and helping out
a bunch of other companies, and it was really fun.
I mean, it's just such a great industry.
I can't explain to you even what it was like back then.
It was just such a small group of people,
and it was just so collaborative.
I had never seen anything like this before
I mean, people were like, what are you building?
Okay, I'm doing something different,
but I have a guy in my team that knows how to do that.
And as soon as he's done with this next sprint,
It was just this incredibly supportive environment.
And I just never been in anything like it before.
And I was just like, I can't ever leave here.
This is the most amazing thing I'd ever seen.
So it wasn't just the technology.
It was that early group of people was just...
I don't know what to say about it.
For those of you who've been in for that long,
you know what I'm talking about.
It's like the early days when NFTs came out.
When NFTs came out, everybody was buying everybody's
because it was like, I don't know what the hell this is,
I think what you're doing is awesome.
I don't really know what the hell this is gonna be,
but I just want to help you.
That people are willing to do that.
So anyway, this group keeps creating new things
that where their initial group of people
always form that type of community.
And I just can't help like loving that people do that.
So anyway, I got to go to my next call,
but you guys are amazing.
I think there's kind of some synergies
in what you've been interested in
and what we're building at API3.
As you know, there's something called the MEV,
maximum extractable value.
Basically, when you can see order flow,
you can extract value from it.
And the way that that presents on something like Ethereum
is these block builders can auction off the right
to searchers to include or exclude or reorder transactions
before they go into a block.
And they make a lot of money doing so.
API3, where I work, we're in Oracle.
So we provide price feeds to all these lending applications.
And within the next couple weeks here,
we're releasing our Oracle extractable value product.
And what that allows to happen is that
we host auctions for these searchers
to be able to bundle a transaction
along with a price feed update.
So this is primarily relevant for MEV
that presents like his liquidations.
And instead of these auction proceeds going to a block builder
or some other third party,
we return these auction proceeds back to the DAP
from which it originated.
So we can drastically reduce the amount of MEV
that's extracted and going to these rent-seeking third parties
who had nothing to the ecosystem.
And we return that to the users from which it originated.
And as you know, this is a pretty significant amount of money
in TradFi, but it's also pretty significant in DeFi.
I think Aave, just in the last month alone,
has $4.5 million to this.
Someone like Venus is bleeding out
about $16 million a year to this.
And you go down the line.
And so basically what we're doing is
if Aave probably simply just uses API 3's price feeds,
we can return that value to them.
So anyways, you kind of come from that world
and there's my sales pitch there.
I'm spreading the word on that.
I was just going to call on you, Kevin,
we haven't heard from you.
So I'm glad you jumped in.
I have a time to add to the earlier stuff.
So yeah, I'm trying to shoehorn my DeFi Dejan stuff
And I remember maybe a couple months back
when Polygon was kind of announcing some of the things
that you were talking about, reading over it.
So I'm excited to see it kind of come to fruition
I do also want to take a second here
just to say that Cointelegraph has joined us.
I think Cointelegraph is the only other person
that we haven't shouted out.
But Cointelegraph, I believe everyone knows who you are
and what you do in this space.
But you can take 30 seconds to just introduce yourself.
And then also, I'd like to kind of drill down
on the question I asked earlier.
Alex was kind of, she was really kind of drilling down
So after you introduce yourself,
could you also tell us how you think,
how might tokenization reshape the concept of ownership?
So first of all, a pleasure meeting you everyone.
So I'm the head of research at Cointelegraph,
And we just released the report with QuickSwap together.
So a pleasure working with you guys.
I mean, yeah, I guess Alex brought quite a few interesting points here.
And obviously, I guess regulation is the cornerstone
for long-term development here.
Obviously, we can talk about tokenization of real estate
But until I guess the market is sufficient enough
to allow for high-tier adoption, high-level adoption of the space,
it may be a hurdle, a significant hurdle
to overcome the adoption barrier here.
And I guess specifically with blockchains like Polygon
participating in large-scale institutional projects
here is of crucial importance.
When I saw that Block Invest based on Polygon
opens up distressed credit markets in Italy,
I mean, that's a huge thing.
And that's actual institutional money, which can also change
not only how we perceive the concept of ownership
from inside crypto, right?
We have all been here for a while, and we actually value that.
But I guess it also has high chances of transforming
global economy to the better,
basically democratizing it as well.
And I guess partially it's good to see that these initiatives
are being tackled by, you know, trade for institutions.
It's just that, I guess, to the large extent,
it's our job to make sure that we drive this process
in a correct way and ensure that this process, you know,
actually benefits the community rather than doing otherwise.
That makes sense. Thank you for that.
And I also want to introduce Boris here from Polygon.
If you want to take maybe 30 seconds just to introduce yourself,
we're just talking about how tokenization
will reshape the concept of ownership at the moment.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Hi, everyone.
My name is Boris. I'm the head of tokenization at Polygon.
So I'm alongside the global head of institutional capital
involved in all of these projects.
And I have a ton of experience on the technology side
in traditional finance and then on the blockchain side
and later I've done, you know, crypto projects and all that.
So, you know, both sides are covered.
And I think we're now at a very interesting time
where the two sides seem to be converging,
which is exciting. Finally, right? Finally, it's happening.
Definitely. And thanks for joining us, Boris.
I do have a question for the group if that's okay.
Yeah, because I heard a few people talking about,
well, basically the bridge between Web2 and Web3, right?
What we are encountering as a company,
because we aren't involved with institutions already,
we are selling products to, well, regular companies
not involved in blockchain.
And this is sometimes causing huge problems,
because when we are mentioning the word blockchain
or crypto or NFTs, it is an instant red flag.
And we've noticed this a few times, actually,
where business deals were basically canceled
because, well, they didn't trust the blockchain space.
So what we actually had to do is separate our company into Carbify.
I'm talking from Carbify right now.
And carbondebits.io, it's a different entity,
a different legal entity.
It is not mentioning anything related to blockchain.
So my question for you guys is how unfortunate this,
well, this is actually because it's a shame, right?
That we have to operate a company like this.
And how can we manage this as a combined blockchain industry?
I think we just have to keep building.
Looking out there, like 95% of all the protocols that we see
I mean, if you've seen this whole meme coin craze on Solana
right now, you'll see like every minute
there's some new geo-boding coin or something like that coming up.
But it really is a shame, though,
because definitely a red flag for a lot of people,
generally older generations as well, they hear blockchain.
And the first thing they think about is Bitcoin crashing
and all this other stuff that the media loves to talk about,
which in the long run doesn't really matter.
Well, this industry, similar to actually just generally trading stocks,
binary options trading and forex trading, these things,
these attract a certain type of people.
Look at their risk takers generally,
people who like to think about risk-reward,
sometimes degenerate gamblers that maybe they quit gambling
or they don't want to gamble because that feels stupid.
So they come over and oh, but if I buy this stock
or this crypto that can go up 20x or whatever,
this isn't gambling, they justify to themselves.
So it's really unfortunate.
We do have a lot of that, you know,
but we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
We're going to have lots of that in such a speculative
and such a volatile and highly growing market.
It does, I think, in some ways help the space
because it brings in these new retail people
who wouldn't come in for your typical 10% S&P 500 average.
But they will come in if they hear that their friend did 50x
or some influencer did 50x on some shit coin.
So, you know, it's a gateway drug.
I think a lot of people come in for this stuff
and then they stay for the real stuff, hopefully.
So I want to add, so what we're trying to focus for
at a station is digital product passports.
If you guys haven't heard, it's like basically making it
so that any emissions that are, you know,
with specific products are tracked from origin to end of life.
And the biggest thing right now we see is that like mattresses
are being disposed by millions at a time
And they use, you know, different various products
that could be essentially green,
but there's no attestation from origin to end of life.
And so what the EU Commission is doing is allowing products
in production factories in 2027 for batteries
to from origin to end of life.
And then you can get some type of credit, you know,
carbon credits, blockchain use cases.
They're not moving towards that.
But this is a way for us to acknowledge
that blockchain use cases can be an element for verification.
And the biggest thing is textiles.
By 2030, textiles are going to be the biggest improvement
on tracking down sustainability for emissions.
So I feel like there is a gap here,
but what we're all doing is there's a lot of low hanging through,
but there is a lot of like high level use cases
with the governments are utilizing for digital passport.
Yeah, I think the general view of the blockchain
and the idea of resistance to blockchain
because so-and-so has done something bad with it
or maybe there's a bit of a speculation thing going on.
People who want to focus on these things can.
We could do the same with traditional finance,
you know, the sins are not original.
They've been there for a long time.
So there are two ways about it, right?
Gently try to dismantle the misconceptions,
which is, I think, our duty.
Yeah, gently and in a very friendly and loving way
because, you know, we all make mistakes.
But also, you know, if there is the inability to engage,
there is the inability to engage, right?
If someone doesn't want to do this because we are, you know,
himself or themselves, then we just don't do things.
And, you know, to someone's previous point,
a ton of stuff is happening.
Public blockchain networks, probably in particular,
are pretty much the factor starting for tokenization in Europe,
becoming that in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
Naysayers, yeah, they always exist,
but, you know, they can have a little, you know,
the satisfactions and all that.
And if they don't want to do things with us,
that's perfectly fine, yeah.
Yeah, I would probably say that it's just a normal,
you know, adoption curve.
So, you know, we had basically innovators at first,
then, you know, early adopters joined, right?
And then there is a point of the chasm,
which basically separates those enthusiasts
and visionaries from pragmatics.
And then we can go down to conservatives and skeptics.
And I guess that basically the approval of ETFs
introduced us to a more completely pragmatic world
of threat-fire rate with institutional money coming in.
And then it's just a matter of time
until these pragmatics lead the conservatives
and skeptics towards a larger scale adoption of the blockchain.
I'd like to ask you, Rock, were you going to jump in?
I was going to ask, thanks, Aztec,
what do you guys, would you guys consider,
because this space is, you know, institutions, RWX,
would you guys consider BRICS like a valid institution
or is that valid to talk about here?
Because I think we'll see BRICS,
I've been saying this recently quite a bit,
but I think we'll see BRICS, you know, they mentioned recently,
they're going to be trying to build some kind of maybe currency
And I think they'll end up just using publicly traded blockchains
like Bitcoin, maybe Ethereum at some point.
But I think that's a somewhat interesting topic for institutions.
Does anyone have an opinion on that?
Does anyone think I'm crazy to say that?
That's a really good question.
And real quick, I just wanted to shout out
that Dana McCarthy from Arizona is here with us.
But yeah, if anyone wants to jump on Rock's question there.
What do you think, Daniel, being in the world of like politics
and maybe having an eye on macro kind of policy and economics,
do you think countries or groups of countries
or institutions like BRICS would dare touch Bitcoin
as their kind of money of friends and enemies?
I think you're going to find that a lot of the larger,
obviously more modernized economies are going to be,
to some extent, retrofitting crypto and blockchain
into their tax codes and into their, you know,
the litany of things that you have to do
in order to keep track of this stuff.
You know, here in the United States is a great example,
obviously, that a lot of the tokenization that's going on,
a lot of the blockchain that's happening.
And for those that don't know,
I'll just briefly mention a couple of things here
just so you guys know who I am.
Yeah, I hate to go on too long on this stuff,
so you can research me if you'd like at demandDaniel.com.
Before I got into politics, I was strictly in business.
I made a lot of money in business,
and I did very well for myself, mainly in real estate,
but I also dabbled in everything from cosmetics to gold,
you name it, I've touched it in the economy.
So I jumped into crypto and blockchain.
Back in 2017, I started kind of researching
and getting involved primarily just to kind of understand it
and really kind of have a grasp on the whole thing.
And now, obviously, in 2024,
there's been a lot of evolution that has happened,
and I've listened to this group periodically,
and it's been really amazing to watch the growth.
So everyone that comes on this,
it's always really interesting to hear,
and we probably don't agree.
Some of us may not agree on some things,
but I'm a big proponent of making sure
that the government is not involved
with individual rights and individual freedoms.
To protect those individual rights and freedoms,
would you agree with that?
Yeah, I'm a big believer.
I'm a very strict constitutional,
United States constitutionalist, conservative,
to the extent that you would imagine.
But on the other side of things,
a lot of things are very nuanced,
and they're not what they seem.
So I'm not someone that looks on the surface and says,
At the top of the food chain,
we probably all know this.
It's all moving money back and forth.
And now that this tokenization and blockchain
I want to give you guys just some feedback
just from what I see happening
over the next three to five years, primarily.
And then you guys should maybe take some of these things
I'm saying and adopt them into your thinking
in terms of development or whatever you're doing.
So that's kind of the primary reason
why I would bore you with some of this stuff.
But let me just tell you,
if you guys think that this thing
is creating an environment that is not being supervised,
I mean, obviously, you guys know
that this is extremely well supervised by the government.
The government is all over what's happening
in tokenization and blockchain.
If you think you're far ahead,
so adopting this technology in a user-friendly manner
that is very effective is going to be critical
over the next three to five years.
Making money off of, you know, hype of tokens,
that's going to probably be,
I think it'll probably start to settle down
and to the extent that the major currencies will rise up
and people will use those and adopt those.
We're talking about a $2 trillion market.
To give you an idea, the real estate market's
a $60 trillion market, right?
You know, you look at other markets, you know,
that are other sectors of our economy
and the trillions of dollars in the stock market, etc.
But the blockchain and the tokenization
are starting to climb slowly but surely.
Now, the market cap's gaining
and the amount of people that are jumping in are gaining.
So like someone mentioned earlier about the adoption curve,
really interesting to watch that happen.
I love the idea of this stuff being used
for real common day issues.
Like, you know, you look at logistics as an example
and watching the blockchain and how it can affect, you know,
parcels getting from one part of the world to the next.
There's so many remarkable things,
but I would just caution everybody
that the government is very, very closely
watching what's going on.
I have, I go through extensive audits.
And let me tell you something.
The way that they're looking at this stuff now
in comparison to what they were looking at,
you know, a few years ago is totally different.
I mean, extremely extensive the way that the government,
at least in the United States.
In many ways, some crypto assets are more regulated
than their traditional counterparts.
So it's, yeah, they're definitely on it.
They see that this is the future
and they know that they need to either regulate
and tax and get their cut
or they need to try to control the direction of the industry.
And you know, you mentioned real estate, you know, 60 trillion.
I mean, that's just one of the addressable markets.
I mean, this addresses, I mean,
almost literally every market, right?
We're talking today about even things like
Pokemon cards and watches, right?
So like, then you get into, you know,
corporate bonds, national bonds.
I mean, the total stock market of the whole world
is anywhere from like 100 to 200 trillion.
And many of these stocks are not actually,
people are not buying them based off of the companies
like revenue generation anymore.
It's because of things like, you know,
these are good stores of value because you have someone
like Warren Buffett that said,
hey, you should just buy S&P 500.
Nobody's going to beat it.
And then the whole world just does it, right?
And now all these stocks in the, you know,
S&P 500 have this massive premium
where people are paying, you know, 60, 100 times earnings.
So they're not, there's this like value store premium
on so many things like housing, you know,
BlackRock and others bought like 40%
of all the houses in the last year just as investments.
These things aren't being necessarily
just bought by people to live in.
And that's okay too, by the way.
They buy a house and they rent it out.
Maybe that actually fills a gap,
an arbitrage between, you know, buyers and renters.
Why there's not enough people can buy.
There's lots of reasons for that.
But anyways, there's all these different asset classes
that are used as stores of value, right?
Gold, real estate is absolutely a store of value
People see it as a safe way to store their money.
You know, global bonds, like that's hundreds of trillions.
We're talking about, I mean, derivatives.
Then you get into the quadrillions
and we're, you know, addressing derivatives
in blockchain as well now.
So with, you know, perpetuals and futures
and all kinds of crazy products.
So this is, I mean, it's literally like
we're addressing almost the entire,
every asset in the global market
will some be touched, some way be touched,
affected by, or less used because, you know,
why would I want to put my money
in something like gold that's not transferable?
And I own lots of physical gold, by the way.
But, you know, there's going to be
much less of a need for that when things like
Bitcoin and Ethereum kind of just show
that they're better digital counterparts.
And why buy a bond that is like,
in real terms, losing money after inflation
and, you know, devaluing and crashing even banks
that are holding just these bonds
when I can hold something like Bitcoin
Well, you know, this is one of the things
that I think will help this industry
jump over that chasm of wide-scale adoption is,
when is it that, you know,
I'm going to be convinced that a plug can't be pulled
and this whole thing goes down, right?
one of the people mentioned earlier about it
being like a kind of like a gambling,
like an outlet for our channel and kind of a gambling.
I think it's going to be like that for a while
because it's going to be very hard
to convince everyone that, oh, you know,
this is decentralized and it is protected
because frankly, it looks to me,
and again, this is just the reality.
It looks like this is an electronic idea.
And electronics, where do electronics go away?
What happens if all of a sudden,
you know, people see Facebook goes out of service
for an hour and you watch people think
the world's ending, right?
I mean, that's how fast something like this can crash.
I think that's why the highly speculative market
is unfortunately creating bad ways.
I look at organizations like MIUI.
I want to just say, I invested some money
into this platform, MIUI.
They went on the Polkadot network.
So I've watched them transition to Web 3.0
and again, I just invested some dough
because I own a very small, small amount of shares
in comparison to the outstanding shares.
But I was an early investor because I watched these guys
say they wanted to transition to 3.0,
and I wanted to be a part and watch that happen
and see what that looks like.
And, you know, I'm watching like a social media platform
effectively take on a tokenization
and using the Polkadot network and all that stuff.
It's just, from the outside looking in,
it's just, it's hard to wrap around,
How, you know, what's the long debit?
Is this something I even want to be involved in as an investor
because, you know, the IRS is, you know, looking at me.
I mean, anybody who makes a lot of money,
but again, I'm just bringing this to your guys' attention
to kind of spur some conversational, you know, some thoughts.
I personally, again, whatever we can do to get to government,
I just don't want the IRS looking at this stuff for anybody.
I mean, they are looking at it, right?
But to think like maybe that they're looking at you more
because you're in crypto, maybe, and they did put, you know,
a question, one of the first questions on IRS tax forms now
But let's consider that 20 percent or more
of United States citizens own crypto
and at least publicly, who have publicly stated,
13 out of 100 senators own it.
So I think every one of them, not to interrupt you,
but every one of those 20 million will probably be going through
some type of significant, some form of auditing
by the federal government.
The IRS is on this stuff like I've never seen before.
I've never witnessed anything like this before.
And I'm telling you, there's, you know,
if you're a fan of the current whatever is going on,
I'm not trying to dispute with you about politics.
I'm just telling you factual in the United States,
what they're doing right now in terms of going after people
that are investors inside of this network,
it's making it where someone like myself shakes my hands
That's going to be the biggest uphill battle
over the next couple of years.
It's straightening around and clarifying
what does this look like for the average investor?
Completely, completely agree.
Completely agree, Daniel.
But I guess it's partially right.
There are two ends to this question.
And I mean, with the number of crypto holders
in the US rising, I mean, it's 48 million right now.
Obviously, there should be a direction
towards clear regulation on RWAs in particular as well.
And I mean, it's good seeing that pro-crypto packs
And it's good seeing that the quality of documentation
provided by all the platforms,
not only RWA platforms, is increasing,
because obviously as a traditional investor
or even a just a conservative crypto investor,
you would like to be 100% sure about the safety of funds.
And that's time, I guess, for many projects in this space
as well to step up their game and make sure
that they do as much as possible to explain, educate,
and also provide successful security mechanisms
to their platforms to make sure that it is safe indeed.
And then the question of politics would become secondary.
Sorry, were you trying to finish your thoughts?
And also something that Daniel made me think about
is just that, I mean, in Arizona where I also live, Daniel,
the, you know, we've been on the forefront
I saw in the news recently that Bitcoin,
I mean, you can pay Bitcoin,
you pay your state taxes with Bitcoin.
And also more like broadly and kind of to like
what we're talking about today with institutions
and real world assets, whether everyone kind of believes
that this is the future or not doesn't really matter
because these huge players are coming in
and BlackRock, you know, the other institutions
are all tokenizing funds right now.
And jumping on board, I think that they see that
this is definitely a technology that can be trusted
and will create a lot of efficiencies
So everything is moving in this direction.
I'll leave you guys with this
and I'll just turn back to a listener
because I really enjoy the conversation.
And this is what I will say to everyone
that was willing to listen to me, please hear me out.
The fact of the matter is that the people
are making the policies over top of us
are draconian, but they're de facto.
What that means is that what would be nice to have
is a way for us to ensure that people could actually know
that we're actually electing the people
that are actually implementing and ruling over us like this.
A big proponent on any way technology can be used to,
let's just say, supervise the most important system
in our country, in any country,
which is picking the people that are actually
in our republic representing us.
So I'm an advocate, and that's where I spend
the most of my time right now is focusing
on how the heck can we fix this problem
of making sure that the public has safety in our elections.
I'm not a big believer that it should be done
I think old school, in this sense,
because I think we have to do it localized,
and et cetera, et cetera.
But man, it'd be nice to have a technology like blockchain,
actually, I don't know, supervising it
and decentralise the supervising it
so people could somehow adopt that.
But again, that's just food for thought.
I hope that you guys have a great day.
I hope you guys make lots of money,
and I hope you guys have tons of innovation,
and I appreciate you, Daniel, for joining us
and kind of giving your perspective,
especially being in politics in the United States.
I really appreciate your time.
If I could ask Daniel before he goes one quick question.
Do you paint a kind of doomy-gloomy,
scary picture of government going to maybe crack down?
So just generally, are you optimistic
or pessimistic about the future of Web 3
in terms of the eyes of the regulators in government?
Long-term optimistic, short-term pessimistic.
I'd say in the near future,
there's going to be a lot of cleanup that's going to happen,
and there's going to be a lot of people
that are going to be, for lack of better terms,
government metaphoric casualties.
You're going to have a lot of people
that are going to be made example of.
There's going to be a lot of work by the government
to say, hey, if you try to use this technology
in a way that's against what we're trying to do,
and I think anybody that's involved,
there's going to be a big combing by the government.
So there's going to be a lot of traps that have been set.
There's probably a lot of things that are happening out there
that the government's actually very involved in.
I mean, you guys know how involved the government is.
I mean, you've got CIA, you've got these agencies
that frankly are rogue in a lot of ways.
I mean, there's at least rogue elements,
and that's not conspiracy.
I'm still under 40, and I'm telling you from someone that
the reality is that you've got a lot of rogue players out there.
I'd be very, very careful.
I'm pessimistic short-term because I think a lot of the innovators
are going to be scrutinized and gone after in ways
I hope that you guys are just ironclad with everything you do.
We've been preparing for 15 years, brother.
Actually, if you want to go back farther to like
cypherpunk mailing lists and just cryptography
and the battle of the cypherpunks versus the government
and we won those battles, like legally won those battles in court,
I think this technology is literally built for state-level actors
that are like resistance.
I don't know if people in Ethereum or Polygon think about this as much,
but if you go to the Bitcoin community,
I mean, it's all they've talked about for 15 years.
Government may try to set traps, many governments,
and by the way, I'm a proud patriot, and I respect what you do.
One of my ultimate dreams is to go into politics,
but as a patriot, we have to be resistant to our governments
being overbearing, and I'm sure you can respect that.
But I think what we've done here is we've basically,
this is Trojan horse its way in.
They laughed at us, they didn't take it seriously,
and they generally couldn't find good ways to squash it early.
And they shouldn't, by the way, as a democracy,
they shouldn't want to squash it.
They should care that they don't do it to the people.
Let me just say, because obviously, this is a broad conversation,
but the thing is is that the reality of it is
is that the current technology that you guys are utilizing,
this form, this new market that's emerging
that you guys are all a part of,
was started by the government.
This was something that was, the agencies,
they're very, very entrenched inside of this system.
They know, I mean, this is something that is extremely sophisticated,
and it goes beyond the United States.
This is a global, and, you know, there's a global play here.
So, I mean, I would caution anybody to think
that you're going to do something, you know,
that's going to be monumental in the pushback of the government
with this, considering the fact that you're working
within a government framework.
And if you think that's not the case...
Well, the SEC lost a lot of cases recently,
so we do have a good legal system in America
that does protect our citizens, and as, you know,
while it may have been altered since the Constitution in some ways,
it's a strong system that protects us.
The system does not protect us.
The system has been completely geared now
to work against and weaponize against the people.
The IRS, the CIA, all these elements start,
but this has been in the works for a very long time.
They will use these things to now...
Well, it's a good thing we're not stupid and we're numerous
and we're the coders that are, you know,
going to fight for our own rights.
We're not going to wait and have them handed to us
We're going to fight for our own rights,
and that's what Americans did when the country was founded.
I love this conversation.
I'd like to kind of come back to real-world assets
I have some questions for Boris,
but David, before I change the subject,
I think you have something to piggyback on.
I actually had a question for Daniel
since he said the government probably started all of this stuff.
In addition to being an NFT founder and a content creator in our space,
does that mean that it's possible Donald Trump is also Satoshi?
At this point, nothing would surprise me,
but here's what I'll tell you.
The DOD and DARPA and those programs that are 20, 30, 40 years ahead of us
And let's just say that the gentleman that you're referencing,
Donald Trump is not allowed to mention Daniel McCarthy in Arizona.
It's almost like they have this crazy ability to monopolize the conversation
and almost compartmentalize individuals on a public scale.
So to your point, those individuals that are involved either indirectly
or directly are numerous,
but I hope I bring some fun to it.
I think that's a great question.
All right, guys, back to Pokemon.
I want to say one last thing on what you were saying, Daniel,
and then we'll let Aztec bring us back to the main conversation here
But, you know, six of the presidential candidates,
including the most recent person to flip on this, was Trump.
Six presidential candidates from both sides,
actually all three sides of you include RFK as an independent,
six presidential candidates have supported,
or at least given positive wording about Bitcoin and Web3,
because they are not stupid.
They know that if 20% of the country owns this thing,
that if they make the wrong decision on it,
they will not be voted into office.
So I think that's a pretty important point to tell.
Well, that's the problem.
Back to the why I would have mentioned earlier,
I mean, the voting is de facto.
So if you don't have voting and you don't have people,
you can't have people that are really on the side of things.
But the other thing I would probably add,
that these are the elements that are controlling those decisions.
those decisions are not being made by those individuals or be made by
Why do you think people like,
like someone like Trump flipped what he was saying.
He didn't like Bitcoin. Now he does.
Well, because, because those individuals are, you know,
they're there to give you and the entertainment
that they're designed to give you.
Those are individuals that are theater actors,
actresses and actresses are actors.
They go up and they're, again,
red team versus blue team is all,
that's all semantics and show just to all the stuff
about this, this, these are all, again,
the bigger purpose of why, you know,
finding that out is, you know, good luck.
I don't know who you have to talk to
to figure those things out.
I'm just telling you at the level where we are
and watching this unfold,
the IRS is clearly using this and be very careful.
And be very careful how much of your asset class
is being put inside of something like this as well,
Well, I'm 100% time and money in this
minus my small amount of stocks in gold,
but my time at least is 100%.
I'm gonna take that, Daniel.
I'm here, and like I said, I'm here to help anyway.
10 years I've been hearing
that someone's gonna stop this thing
and 10 years I've been all in
and 10 years it's been a good bet.
Maybe that bet will blow up in my face at some point though.
But I do, so Aztec, you could take over,
but I do believe, I do believe in the American
and many countries, democratic political systems.
There are big flaws and there's things we could do better
but I do believe in the American political system
and I do believe that the people
when they speak do have a voice.
Maybe not as much of a voice as I would like to see
and maybe there is some corruption of absolutely,
But I do believe that we do have a voice.
I think politicians would be stupid to fight this thing.
And by the way, most of them own it anyways.
It's going to be a political topic
and it's gonna affect the votes and things like that.
But of course, I mean, like Daniel was saying,
our election's even real and all that.
Like I don't want to sidebar too much here,
but it's important to consider and think about.
I'd like to get back to the institutional side,
And we're mainly because we only have another 30 minutes
out of our three hour show here at All Rosy to Polygon.
And I'd like to pick Boris's brain here
And if you're new to All Rosy to Polygon,
you don't have to raise your hand.
So piggyback off whatever Boris says, jump in guys.
So Boris, I think you have a very special kind of outlook
from where you're sitting with Polygon in the industry.
So I wanna ask, start this question off with you.
So where does the world of finance look
or what does the world of finance look like
by the end of this decade from where you sit?
Wow, okay, that's a big horizon.
So by the end of this decade,
we have migrated traditional capital markets
onto the public networks.
Everyone is using Polygon.
Obviously, everyone is running their own
chain development kit, Validium,
and they are persisting, you know,
proofs to the Agler on Ethereum mainnet.
And, you know, the whole thing seems to be working.
We have improved the world.
We have maybe slightly more direct access
for the individuals to certain asset classes.
So I'm going to be optimistic and say
the majority of the markets
are going to be using public networks.
They're going to be using the infrastructure
in those public networks that is now ready
And everything that, you know, people such as myself
or, you know, some of you have been working towards
has actually been achieved against all headwinds,
you know, regulatory or otherwise, yeah.
That sounds like you're gonna help us
be able to shop on Amazon and pay with meme coins.
Is that, you guys are gonna let us spend
some of these meme coins on groceries?
I can neither endorse not, you know,
do the opposite for meme coins or Amazon.
I mean, at a certain point, guys,
because of the way this industry is built,
but you will be able to buy something on Amazon
with like the lowest liquidity market cap shit coin,
because you'll just have a layer built on top
that will just convert it in the back, right?
You'll just have quick swap built on top of Amazon.
And then, you know, when someone goes to trade
or Uniswap, when someone goes to trade,
it'll just swap through quick swap
to whatever asset that they want on the back end.
Like that was, that's not possible, right?
You can't go to Amazon and pay with like a shoe NFT
or like, you know, Euro if you're in America
or whatever, you know, but we could have,
you could pay with any asset anywhere eventually
once this industry is more developed
and especially with that layer.
Yeah, precisely, precisely, right?
So you'll be able to use whatever you've got.
It might be even an NFT or something like that
and instantly liquidated.
And you know, you're going to pay for it, right?
You know, whatever the market price is,
you know, the assets relative one to each other,
that's what you're going to pay,
but it's going to be very transparent.
And yeah, I actually, I did not think about it
and thanks so much for the clarification.
We'll be able to use any assets
because you know, your decks or whatever you're using
is going to produce the right asset at the other end
for whoever wants to consume it.
That is with Aglayer because the Aglayer,
which I think is the like most fleeped on thing
in the entire industry right now,
I'm calling it the Linux of Web3.
So what Polygon has built with a billion dollars
and I've explained this kind of before,
but what they built is this open source
and cross chain where, you know,
where you can not only bridge between chains,
like I can now send an asset between the two chains
trustlessly, no more multi-chain hacks
and that kind of crap, no more trusted custodians.
Trustlessly between L2s and then now they're even,
Polygon L2s plus eventually Optimism, Arbitrum, L1s, et cetera
will all be able to use Aglayer
and not only will you be able to bridge,
that's the basic part, that's just the first step,
but the most important part is the cross chain,
DeFi, Legos, AKA, composability.
So if you want Amazon on a blockchain
or at least their payment rails on a blockchain,
it could be on, you know, whatever, you know,
X1 is coming out soon, okay, X is chain
coming out on CDK and Aglayer.
So, you know, you could have Amazon on X1 chain
and someone can have an asset on,
let's say Doge chain, another Polygon CDK
and then you'll be able to pay Doge on Doge chain
through QuickSwap on POS to Amazon on,
you know, X1 or Amazon chain.
You won't even know you're doing it.
It'll be in the background.
It'll be just like the layers of the internet.
You won't even have to deal with any of that.
People won't even know what layers are eventually,
but you'll be able to do all this
through multiple chains all at once
and for like, it'll commoditize to less than a penny
in fees and slippage will be, you know,
the most minimal slippage in the world
because you'll have every institution in the world
will be plugged into this and there'll be, you know,
protocols in between them, market makers and aggregators
and all kinds of stuff that'll just stitch
the entire world's liquidity together seamlessly
I like to add, you know, Polygon's focusing
on utilizing substrate framework.
If you guys know that is a very base layer
of the framework around, you know, building ecosystems
or projects or dApps, the ones to all that with Advil.
I really like what you guys' focus is on like
having that base layer of like cross chain compatibility
and that's like really the basis of all our ecosystem.
That was, I mean, for those who weren't around,
you know, years ago in the polygon ecosystem,
avail was built by Polygon.
Still very closely friendly with Polygon, obviously.
Anna Rogge, one of the co-founders of Polygon,
took that project and it's now kind of his own
and it's a separate thing, but still very close
and we'll be working with, actually,
I don't even know if this is public,
but I know that they'll be working with AgLayer and Polygon
because Quickswap, we're building something
Yeah, and I mean, I guess going back
to the topic of cross chain compatibility, right,
and resolving the issue of that fragmented liquidity,
I guess we're actually quite close to being successful there
because since the emergence of RFQ protocols
and things like that, and you know,
some protocols implementing ZKPs inside the DEXs
and DEXs building on ZK rollups
and the commission's falling down
after the then kind of great,
I mean, we're definitely really, really close there
and I guess partially it's also an adoption question
rather than the technological question by now,
although obviously there is a lot to reserve.
Well, the technology's not fully baked for what I just,
the little scenario I explained
where every institution and every DEX and every ZX
and every market maker and every clearing house,
where those are all completely seamlessly
and trustlessly tied together, like completely stitched
together, the technology's not quite there,
but we have the roadmap, right, we have AgLayer,
it is the first iteration of AgLayer is out,
we have Polygon who's on the forefront of ZK rollups,
now we just need, we need Optimism and Arbitrum
to move to ZK rollups so that they could join AgLayer
because they're different risk parameters
on the whole one week windows that causes some issues,
but anyways, the technology's here, you said RFQs,
RFQs are actually kind of solving this right now,
but in a, I mean, there's a lot of drawbacks,
they work great, you know, one inch and others,
we use similar systems with Quickswap,
we built, you know, our liquidity hub, which has solvers,
so let's say you wanna come trade something on Quickswap,
actually when you put your intent
into the Quickswap interface,
what actually, and through aggregators,
what happens is it gets sent to a bunch of market makers,
these market makers are cross chain,
like either cross chain or two sexes,
they're taking orders and arbitraging in between,
so when you trade on Quickswap,
you don't know how far that chain can go,
you may be trading, you know,
there may be a market maker or some integrator
that is actually buying the Bitcoin for cheaper
and lower slippage on Binance
and then they're just arbitraging
and bringing it over and answering that order on Quickswap,
so there's a lot of things already built
to kind of like, I don't wanna say Mickey Mouse
because it works well, but it's not trustless,
I mean, that part is trustless,
but it's not completely seamless,
it's not completely stitched together,
but we're working towards that
and it will be more efficient
than any centralized counterparts in the world,
it'll be more efficient than BlackRock
and Synodals of the world,
this will bring them all together, actually,
they will be components of this.
Completely agreed, right?
Imagine having all of the transaction systems,
not only financed, not only, you know,
decentralized, sexted, it doesn't matter,
anyone who does any type of transaction,
anything that requires a presentation of data,
anything that requires a change of state, right?
That's the huge problem in the traditional world,
you know, with your Amazons, with your Ebays,
with your banks, with your,
whoever does your supply chain, so on and so forth,
you know, if you can bring all that to one place,
then you have, you know, you make partnerships easy
because there is no implementation afterwards,
With near instant finality, by the way,
and Cointelegraph, you were gonna speak,
sorry, who's speaking from Cointelegraph,
so I could call you by name?
Okay, Vladimir, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I mean, the question of RFQs and everything,
we'll talk about on our main channel next week with you
and discuss the REAP rate as well.
You guys are hosting a spaces?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you're definitely invited.
Oh, well, we'll be there and we'll try to bring
our whole audience in, awesome.
Yeah, I mean, looking forward to that
and wanted to thank you all.
It was a pleasure to be here.
Sorry that I wasn't here for the whole time,
but looking forward for some more Twitter spaces
and collaborations in general, and yeah,
feel free to connect with us any time.
Yeah, great having you here, Vladimir.
One last thing I wanted to point out.
Real quick, David, before you jump in,
I want everyone to know, we're gonna read comments
and do some shout outs from comments,
so if anybody has questions or comments
about the stuff we talked about today,
or any last minute questions that you wanna ask the panel,
put them in the comments and we'll read those in a second.
Yeah, absolutely, also follow the speakers,
retweet the space, pump it up a little bit
before it's over, but I mean, honestly, look,
you guys, every time I come here,
you blow my mind when it comes to the tech.
Like you say things and I understand,
I don't know, 69% max, which is, if I understood everything,
I would feel that there's something wrong,
but look, I think you should talk to legal
and just make sure that there's no liability.
You may have to put up certain disclaimers
once we get to that point, because I foresee an issue.
If a husband wants to be nice
and buy his wife some pants off of Amazon,
and he's like, honey, I just bought you these nice pants
I mean, look, that might be taken the wrong way.
So we wanna protect the community
before these things happen.
Well, I know the last thing we talked about
was based on a joke you made about buying something
on Amazon with a meme, but actually, I mean,
you can actually protect against that with blockchain.
Another thing you can't do with traditional markets.
I know these are jokes and hypotheticals,
but like, seriously, the way Web3 is built,
it's this interoperable system
that can tie together every asset class,
every industry, supply chain management,
authentication, video games through Web3,
gambling through whatever meme coin maybe you might say,
but it can tie all these things together.
And you need a problem solve?
You wanna buy pants with some Kulo token?
Well, you can because you just build in
with VK proofs of privacy here.
It's not even, this is all already happening.
There's many people who are doing this.
I mean, we can like literally do whatever we can imagine
It opens up a whole new, it's like the internet.
I mean, it really is just like when the internet came out
and people were like, me, I was a weirdo
and on the internet in 1997, I think,
when I first started, getting those AOL discs
like a 10 year old, nine year old, eight year old, whatever,
selling digital currencies in video games
to people who are famous in this space now
23 years ago before Bitcoin.
So like, all of us weirdos were telling
all of our friends and family,
my parents hated the internet
because I was on it all the time and I wouldn't go out.
I wouldn't hang out with other kids.
I dropped out of the wrestling team
because I was in a serious rating guild.
But we were telling everyone
that this would change the world,
that there was all kinds of crazy things
we could build with the internet
and everybody thought we were stupid and weirdos.
But I mean, look at the things that it did,
but there was a big part missing to it.
And that was asset ownership, asset transferability.
There were all these custodians
that got in the middle of the internet.
The internet was supposed,
the vision was decentralization.
This was what the internet was supposed to be.
But because you needed custody assets,
The internet got really siloed
and kind of taken over by just a handful of large companies.
But web three actually brings the power back to the people.
I want to give a question that we were talking about
just a bit ago to Swiss cheese
because we haven't been able to hear from them yet today.
So go ahead and take 30 seconds to introduce yourself.
And also, where do you see the world of finance
by the end of this decade from where you sit?
Nice to meet you everyone.
I'm Sveta from Swiss cheese.
So Swiss cheese is basically a coin.
We are not only the coin,
I would say currently we are creating games
which will be like life-changing games,
very interesting and very good ones for gamers.
They will really like it.
And our community is also very excited about it.
So what we see in this decade about finance,
like everyone who is in crypto and blockchain industry,
like we all see the future being with cryptocurrencies
that everything will change to better in future,
to be more transparent, to be more secure.
And like we believe that future will be Bitcoin,
the currencies, Swiss cheese that we made, of course.
I was very happy to be here to meet you everyone
Hey, I saw that you recently brought a bunch of liquidity
So welcome to the polygon and Quickswap family.
Awesome, great to hear from you guys
and glad, like Rock said,
great to have you here in the polygon family.
I feel like we haven't heard from you in a little bit.
Maybe you could also jump on this question.
I think soon Rock wants to get to the comment questions
but if you'd like to comment on this as well.
So essentially just where do you see the world of finance
by the end of this decade?
well, that's a very difficult question to be honest.
Well, a topic I talked about briefly like an hour ago
is I would definitely love to see this space
growing up a little bit, right?
To see the capital flow to the,
well, the more serious part of the blockchain space.
And like Rock mentioned earlier,
well, use it as a payment method.
It doesn't matter which asset you can use.
You can simply use it all around the world.
there's a different topic
but it's related to my own project, obviously.
So what we are trying to do is encourage people
They are tied to a real tree
and they are earning the yield
because we sell the CO2 rights
to companies and institutions.
But this is definitely a new type of capital flow in my view.
I think it's called real yield.
Actually, we didn't mention this topic yet.
And I think that's an important...
Can you expand on that real yield
just very vaguely for the audience?
Yeah, real yield is basically referring to the fact
that you sell a product based on blockchain technology
to a company in the web to space.
So they are simply buying a product like we are used to
and this money is actually flowing into the crypto space.
And then you basically call it real yield.
And that's exactly what we are doing as we speak actually.
Yeah, and I know you're finishing your thought there
so I apologize, but yeah, go ahead.
Oh no, well, that was basically it.
I have to say, the question is very difficult to answer
because well, it's basically a prediction.
It can end in multiple ways.
But I just hope and wish we will see the capital flowing
to well, projects making a real difference
Mean points can exist, you know, it's not a big deal.
But I just don't like the big CNO going on.
I think speculation is an essential feature of the market.
You know, so in evolving markets,
I think speculation is very important.
You know, definitely not in the long run
to the average investor, but to help grow the market
and, you know, encourage adoption.
I think it's, for those reasons,
I think it's an essential component.
That's why we're getting DTFs, right?
So two killer apps in crypto.
One is speculation and everything is a process of speculation.
The second one is table coins.
Can I say that better myself?
All right, Rock, I know we're kind of running up
against the last 10 minutes.
If you want to jump on comments,
it's probably a good time to do it.
We have about 40 comments from what I can see,
at least on this bottom here.
Yeah, I wish that it's so weird how Twitter,
like we have everything separated into two, right?
hundreds of comments on the original tweet about the space,
but then once the space goes live, then it resets.
It's a little frustrating,
but I'm going to read from the live ones from today.
So yeah, so let's see, we got Squid Grow.
I think Squid Grow is going to speak today,
but I think, I don't remember what happened,
something happened, but we'll have Squid Grow up soon.
Good to see Squid Grow Army here.
We have, Ray Buckton says,
DOD and HUD can't account for $21 trillion
We have IOSIF, Peter Feis, thanks for having me.
Athernity Cloud, Deepin, Ray Buckton,
says, RWA annual report with categories.
And I think Ray is from RWA World also with Tyler, cool.
Let's see, we got Matt Bartlett from VanEck,
Absolute pleasure having you here.
You guys are really fighting for the space
in the institutional arena.
But yeah, he says, thanks for having me.
Great to have you, give me a like on that.
And everybody follow all these guys, by the way.
Magellan says, hi, Alex Damskerp.
That was the former SEC attorney
that me and her like to get into fun debates on here.
MetaRides posted a tweet.
Check out this spectacular Forbes article by Sandy Carter,
which includes MetaRides.
Okay, Shane LeShill, RWA World.
We like MetaRides though, but RWA World.
Chainlink CCIP for anyone interested in learning more.
Yeah, CCIP is very interesting.
And especially for real world assets.
And RWA World also said, we contributed to a report
on ERC 3643, giving a lot of links here.
I like it, they're plugging a bunch of good content.
Dstore, your digital access says exciting times
Join Dstore Network and HelloDeer app
for the future of building verification with assets.
I'm basically reading an ad here.
Cheers though, they're doing RWA, so that's cool.
Block app says the RWA Renaissance is here.
We don't even know what this is gonna culminate in
by the way, these are just the things
we've thought up so far guys.
I like the example of when the internet was first started,
nobody thought that the internet would be
how you would take taxis.
Like if you said, oh, you're gonna use the internet
to take taxis and all of taxis would be taken over
People would've been like, what the hell are you talking
about, it wouldn't even make sense, right?
Or I'm gonna order my food on the internet now
and it'll just come to my door in 10 minutes.
McDonald's is pretty fast here in LA.
Let's see, we've got home, the duck says,
oh man, I just lost my place.
James Rule XRP does the fist thing and sunglasses.
Outdoor aficionados says, just letting everybody know,
we're also building in the RWA sector.
If you're into chalets in the French Alps,
We got a lot of chalets French Alps people in the audience.
I don't even know what that is.
That was, I just lost, outdoor aficionados.
Tim Twinzi says, buy pedos and S Pepe on quick swap decks,
best meme coins on polygon.
That's a pretty cool name.
Someone with a Russian name that I can't read says,
a wonderful eternity cloud project with a bright future,
Boudhiraja.e says, eternity clouds the future.
Cryptosnail says, I joined really late.
Can you quickly mention if there are some coins
that are associated with your project
that I might be interested in?
Just read the comments, Cryptosnail.
There's plenty of shills in there.
Don says, in the United States transferring real estate
between partners, there's a ton of filing requirements
related to tax on the state and federal level.
Are there any protocols tackling this issue?
If anyone wants to comment and answer to them,
I mean, definitely, I know there's a lot of projects.
Actually, one of my buddies is building a decentralized,
tokenizing real estate project.
So I know a lot, a lot of companies are trying to do this.
Yeah, maybe Boris can comment on that one real quick.
So they're all baking in this into their,
how the transactions work.
Because transactions are a little bit more complex
and yes, there's a little bit more complex
the actual contracts are baked into the assets
and the assets fractionalized
and then every transfer is effectively taxed
using the backend systems
or rather the tax reporting is done because of compliance.
And everyone who does RWA needs to do it.
So different jurisdictions, different ways of doing it.
There isn't a specific project
that does it specifically for reload assets
I believe that it's going too much in a year or two
I think tokenized real estate will,
I mean, it's entirely possible that it will be,
you know, $100 trillion market.
To be able to diversify your,
like if you can invest in,
imagine if you could invest in real estate,
get the exposure to real estate,
not have to deal with a property manager or tenants
or like, you know, fixing a plumbing, you know, issue,
And if someone commoditizes it, you know,
gets it, does it at scale, you know,
they can handle all the property managers
and they can handle every, all the renters, everything.
And then you get exposure and you, you know,
you pay a very small fee off the top
and you can just buy it on quick swap or whatever.
I mean, like obviously this is a very cool thing
and this is just gonna happen, right?
There's no reason this shouldn't happen.
And, you know, you can even get a portion of the rent,
the rental income, et cetera, and you're diversified
because instead of having to buy,
like the most diversified of us that own real estate,
you know, on this show probably,
maybe you have one home if you're lucky,
maybe you have two homes, maybe you have six properties,
but like most people don't have six properties
and that's not even that diversified, you know?
I have a friend that has, I think like 15 properties,
but like 12 of them are in specifically
in Huntsville, Alabama where there's a lot of tech growing
and that's been great for him.
But what if that tech turns down?
What if, you know, like Amazon's headquarters
like leaves one state and goes to another
and then your real estate sucks, right?
But so if you could buy, you know,
a small piece of a thousand different properties
built on top of this, and that'll just,
I mean, that's huge, that's huge, it's gonna happen.
This is definitely gonna happen.
I mean, it was just in the news.
Recently, there was a big court case in the United States
where some type of lawsuit and a short story,
the outcome is that they're trying to end the 6%
that realtors get on like commissions,
something along those lines.
And what a lot of, I was listening to some podcasts
and things like, you know, real estate related podcasts
and some of these really big names were talking about how they,
and these are guys that are not from blockchain,
but they were saying that it looks like
that's where everything's trending for real estate.
So I imagine we see this happen a lot faster than we think.
I think, you know, especially with the question
I was asking earlier, where do you see, you know,
the, you know, finance going towards the end of this decade?
I imagine that real estate starts, you know,
going through the blockchain a lot more
and there's functionalities and optionality
starts opening up for crypto native people.
And I think that, of course,
crypto native people will become a much larger demographic.
Definitely, man, definitely.
I'm telling you, web three,
it literally disrupts every single industry on the planet
and there's not an industry on the planet
that I can think of that wouldn't benefit
from some aspects of web three.
There's really just not, like, we should do that one time.
Let's just name random topics, you know, towels,
like just random crap and I'm sure we can find a way
that somehow web three would benefit even the towel
industry, you know, like we said earlier,
you're buying a towel from Amazon
and you can pay with any currency in the world
on the back end and it just converts instantly.
Now it's gonna be the next meme coin, Rup.
I mean, I was just hearing.
I mean, I was just hearing about,
maybe it was on one of our spaces, but, or somewhere,
but, you know, people were talking about sourcing.
Actually, they were saying mattresses today,
but another one I was hearing recently was like,
your blankets and sheets, you know,
are these sourced from, you know,
bad sources or good sources or whatever?
I don't know why that matters,
but I'm sure some people care,
but all this stuff can be sourced and properly,
you know, you could find the whole supply chain
if it's all on blockchain, right?
So whether it's proof of string, stitch, or anything else,
we have your proof of source, but um, chah.
Anybody see the Larry David recently
to talk about the ratty towels?
Anyways, okay, let's read a few more comments,
and then I think we'll wrap it up.
We'll do some community-like shout-outs,
Agadoor says, polygon is the power.
King says, how about BlackRock?
Check it for me also, Pepe thanks.
Whatever that means, okay?
Agadoor says, RWA of a world masterpieces.
Pretty perspective, the present.
I don't know what that means,
but it would be cool to own a small amount of the Mona Lisa.
That would be pretty cool.
I mean, imagine if like, you know, whatever museum,
actually, I've seen it and I forget which museum it was,
but it's somewhere in Europe.
But imagine if like the Mona Lisa,
if the museum itself or whoever the patron
that's lent it to the museum said,
hey, I'm going to tokenize the Mona Lisa.
We're gonna, now the part of the rule is
it has to stay in this museum
or wherever, you know, some councilor Dow,
you know, votes to keep the Mona Lisa,
so it, you know, you can't just like take a piece of it
or, you know, take the whole thing or whatever.
But it's gonna stay there,
but everybody gets to own a piece of the Mona Lisa.
I think there's plenty of people
that even though you can't pull it away
would like to have some small ownership of the Mona Lisa.
It may even value at it like equal to
or more than what the Mona Lisa is actually estimated
to be worth, even though it's kind of priceless.
But then you may get the degens
in the one to buy environment.
I've seen a project on Polygon recently.
Polygon announced them called ArtFi.
They're in this art, real world asset space.
So that looks like it's already kind of taking place.
I mean, we literally disrupt every industry
and make every industry better.
I mean, I actually think,
yeah, there's so many things
that have been phenomenal to stop going on rats.
But okay, let's read some more comments here.
Got a bunch more comments.
Okay, that's kind of a lewd comment.
If anyone wants to read, go in the comments.
I love what SWCH brings to crypto.
Someone says when next, obviously a shill.
A lot of shills today, guys.
That's a beer and weed account too.
Kbot says, fantastic space.
The tokenization of happiness.
crypto mining RWA with a veteran run project here.
Coin Coast says, I listed top 20 RWA coins.
Satter John says, East or West,
Swiss cheese is the best.
Reza Kapoor says, very nice talk.
King says, quick swap, I'm done.
Myself, and then he says another comment,
myself do, and another comment, blockchain or on chain.
I don't know what you're talking about, man.
But B Art says, for my friends who are more
visually oriented, I've made a sketch for them.
It shows the whole carbify,
like the kind of chain of attestation, I think.
Shows the whole like in a visual way.
Cool, check that out if you guys see it.
Wow, that got 43 likes and 23 retweets
as a comment on here, cool.
Let's see, Mina Protocol says,
Mina's Eath Soul events are filling up fast.
You put, let's see, ZK Connect Soul
and a bunch of Mina developer workshop.
because it seems like hackathon builder stuff.
Okay, Jay Hart says, the community's fire.
There's no marketing team doing this.
No posts like this are made by awesome community members
that believe in the bright future.
Carbify has in front of her.
Okay, another carbify comment.
All right, I think that's good for today.
Would someone like to read out some audience members
and then people on stage can say bye after that?
I love the rap it, if you guys don't mind.
We up in this town, RW ways.
This is how we get down, quick, swap and polygon.
We are non-stop Swiss David Aztec.
With the trees, we are NFTs.
Polygon, you see me rock with the Zacharias.
The swap X, Boris, Ray B, Astor Network, America, AC, DC,
Mixie, German bombshell, baby, medieval empires,
Exodus, wallet, you know what's up, DGI game.
It's okay, ethos, I own noose.
We like Meryl, what you killin'?
Meryl of the, I mean, what that is his name.
Hey, Luke, Berkfield, bitch of the old, what's up, dude?
I can't speak your name, danku.e.
Hey, Porgy, studio, cat food, HSMC, NDAX, Jose, Xeno.
We out here mining, UCO network.
That's what's up, three met AD, feelin' me?
I'm out, DSTOR, J-A-P, beats.
That's when I'm rapping, eth, you feelin' me daily?
ZZ, T-N, we about to talk about RWs all again.
Blockchain, Shinobi, you know what's up?
T-E-G-R-I-D-Y space.eth, what's up, too?
M-Star, RoNox, I got a friend, name the same.
Dude, commando, K-Bot, what's up?
Thank you, lunch, I-F-I, Yulia, K-K-Sing, too.
Thor, Olaf, Butter, A-N-T-R-Y-R-O-K.
That's what I meant to say.
I didn't mean to mess up your name.
The Crypto Canuck, what's up, dude?
I fill my cup up, Y-A-Y-W-Y-N-N.eth,
what's up, you feelin' me?
Got Doc Eats all here in the family.
R-W-A-S, this is where we pave on our fuckin' plate.
They mean to say the F word, but I'm not tryin' to say it.
M-B-D-M-C, Crypto, you feelin' me?
Slay4Y-H-N-3-M, what's up, dude?
Mark, Mark, hey, this is where we start, start.
You're the hero, Rainbow, what's up?
Kari Ninja, fill my cup, I say this.
Ethos Ambassador, J-J-10,
and all the 342 people's listenin'.
This is Dustin Lee from D-Star.
We on TV, Discovery Channel,
but that's some different stuff, though.
Hey, R-W-A-S, we in this place,
and all these lovely faces.
Please, everybody, follow the bottom right corner,
and this is how we share these spaces,
so we can all have these lovely faces,
say things and thought leaders in the town,
Polygon, pushin' all, pushin' to the top,
we're out here with the Ethos on the other side of the lane,
because they slow, that's why we made some things,
layer twos on top, and we're nonstop.
R-W-A-S, is this the place we stay,
and we pave our own path that we made?
This is what I say, R-W-A-S.
Follow everybody on stage.
Didn't see that coming, but that was amazing.
Greatest thing I've ever heard.
If you're in the audience and he read your name
and is a little rap there, this is recorded,
so you could go back and save this,
bookmark this as a recording,
that tweet when it's done, when we close out here,
and you could have your name forever immortalized
as a rap song on the All Worlds,
All Roads lead to Polygon show, that was fun.
Was that planned, or was that just for the moment?
No, that's me, I've been freestyle rapping
since I was 12 years old, and today, 10thirtysix,
Happy birthday, man, cool.
Okay, guys, I think that wraps it up.
Anyone on the stage, you guys wanna say goodbye?
That was not on purpose, but I'll take it.
Good times, good times, I hope everyone has a good weekend,
and it was awesome to pick everyone's brain
and learn a lot more about the institutional side
of blockchain and real-world assets and everything.
And much love, Rock, I hope you have a good weekend, brother.
Aztec is the greatest host slash co-host
of any podcast on the planet.
Was an awesome rap, by the way,
and see you guys next time.
Yeah, thanks, guys, so much for having us on board.
Really appreciate the time to pick your brains, too.
And yeah, see you next time.
Thank you for your guys' thoughts.
Stay tokenizing, and check out RWA World
for all your tokenization database needs.
All right, guys, we're heading over to the DogeChain space.
It's a soon-to-be polygon CDK chain.
Maybe it'll be the biggest polygon CDK chain, maybe not.
Who knows, there's a lot of competition there now,
but it has been the biggest polygon edge chain by far.
So hopefully we can make a big splash
when DogeChain, the smart contract layer two of Doge,
becomes polygon CDK and under AG layer.
All right, guys, see you there.
Just search DogeChain family on Twitter
if you wanna join that space.
That one's a little more loose, a little more free-flowing.
We get into a lot more weird shit over there,