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Cardano Epoch Hump Banter 🍿♻️🗣️ Come say Hi!😁 E649
Recorded: Aug. 15, 2026 Duration: 1:23:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello.
I can't really tell if you're a listener or a speaker. My two devices say different things.
Então, tudo bem. Com base. Tranquilo. Early morning, para por aqui. Tô a bocado a recuperar do
jantar de ontem porque tive foi meu aniversário, mas quis manter a tradição de fazer um space em
no topo de todas as hipóques da Cardano. Para bem. Contigo tudo andar. Obrigado. Mais um.
Curiosamente, tenho esta cena que é 45B na na Cardano, 45 bilhões de ADA, e fiz 45 anos. Ah, ok.
Se lembrar do parlamento, então. É curioso. Como prêmio, vá.
Eu acho que eu já ando brincar com este conceito há anos, desde literalmente
2022 que registei o domínio e comecei a pensar no conceito. O conceito ainda está a ser pensado,
mas já são anos demais para continuar a ser um projeto vai e não vai. Portanto,
o facto de eu agora ter 45 anos e ter 45b vai ser decisivo ou, se não em um caso, o
decisivo que vai ser agora, se não se não resolver isto e o projeto torna se torna viável e começa
a ter volume de negócios e tudo mais, ou se calhar a 45b passa a ser 45b.org Ei, faço, digamos,
o handover para para comunidade. Visto que temos a questão do conceito, não é,
dos 45 milhões de Ada, acho que é algo que vai estar, que seria bom estar sempre
no no no radar dos dos cidadãos, de cidadãos. É pa, eu sou péssimo com estas coisas. Do Severas,
não é? O teu projecto terminar se nós nunca temos colaborado em nada? Pois.
Nós temos é só esses debates, não é? Por exemplo, hoje o tema que me ocorria era um bocadinho ADA
versus BTC, porque eu vejo muita gente aqui a falar de o valor de ADA,
eles falam de valor de ADA como se fosse a uma medida do sucesso da Cardano. Portanto,
estas discussões entre nós já são uma colaboração, não? Passaste no nosso space, nosso evento,
de Cardano Summit 2024. Por acaso não conseguieste vir? Não sei se, mas certamente recebeste
um convite para passar no Construtucho no workshop que fizemos em Lisboa, não?
Não te percebeste isso em setembro? Não sei em que mês é que foi. Com setembro de 2024.
Já lá vai dois anos. Mas por acaso posso pôr o link para esse vídeo aqui no no chat deste space?
Não, mas é neste sentido de Web3, porque eu tenho um projeto. Okay. O Downwards,
mas não sei se tu chegaste a ver. Por acaso esse não vi ainda. Não sei com esse nome se não sou.
Mas se quer passarmos para inglês, eu reparei que temos Down to Earth juntar-se a nós.
Não se importas? Yeah. Okay. So welcome Down to Earth. Yes. Não, não, força. Sorry. Jump in! No, no,
make the introductions. Then I'll talk. Yeah, I was just saying welcome to Down to Earth,
welcoming him to come up and speak. We're just bantering about Cardano and governance,
and Nerf was saying how how he has his full time job in Web three
and how we could partner a bit more with 45p. Please go ahead, Nerf. No,
I was saying that it would be sad. I guess that's the wrong word.
If we do not do not co collaborate at least once before, and if because you are saying
you are still trying to figure out what's the future of 45b, yeah, and I was saying it would be sad
if for some reason it does not move forward as in its current form, because I work well.
Lucas knows me more about governance because I work with online voting,
but I'm a full time Web3 entrepreneur in the broader sense as well. I just shared on
the comment section one such project that we are doing full time with the team.
It's not governance per se. Governance is we have another project, and I know Lucas,
you are from Lydia. Correct me. Santa Ray. Santa Ray, I was I was mistaken. Yeah, yeah. No worries.
Which is not far from where I live in Cape Verde. So I'm working full time in Web3 for many years.
You two. Maybe different ecosystems, but I'm agnostic to be honest. And yeah,
and I see no reason why we are not working together, other
than we are not doing a good job communicating. And and time restriction, I would say,
because like what I what I wanted to to point out is 45B started by being like a
for-profit activity, a consultancy thing, and the logo, the words on the logo are learn, manage,
and build. So oh, right there, we already have. Three lines of services that we want to provide:
training, management support, and product management in Web3 professionally.
And there was zero community, zero facilitation. You know, there was a training side,
but that was like veered towards the market, the you know the the public companies.
And now I feel like 45P has become a lot more of governance, product management
on governance tooling, facilitation of grassroots. You know, communities in Cardano.
So I feel like we we need to decide a bit more, a bit better what we want to do. What
when I said we could hand over 45B to the community, that would be you know actually just caveat on
that. We wouldn't be asking for any treasury funding for for to do that.
We would just open source it and and you know promote that community takes it on. Um.
What I mean by doing that is the community side, so the grassroots facilitation,
the governance tooling, product management or features discussion, and governance spaces.
This kind of space, like we're doing here, we've been doing this for I think 15 epochs,
which is not much, but it's been an interesting experiment so far. And so, yeah. Anyway,
so I don't see the link of what you dropped in the chat. Maybe let me just refresh
or find a new browser or something. Can you tell us a bit more about this project? Sorry,
can you tell us a bit more about this project? Or maybe I think Down to Earth is joined us on stage.
Can you say hi? But I also see Down to Earth's Mac. But down, we are not listening.
The sound is not coming. Bon dia, só era só para dizer que eu sou português.
Vocês mudaram para inglês, mas podem continuar em português para mim. Okay. Yeah, but the thing is,
meanwhile we've also had Falconfly joining us, and so yeah, we're trying to do this internationally.
It would be cool to eventually have a space just organized in Portuguese,
as we the three of us are Portuguese. But since we're welcoming everyone from around the world,
maybe it would be cool if we we stay in in Portuguese in English. I mean, would that be okay? Yeah,
for me it's okay. Yeah, I think we we exchanged some messages down to Earth
a few weeks ago about Ergo. Right. Yeah. Ever that? Yes. Yes. It's true. Cool, cool, cool.
And can I ask if it's not doxing you too much? Whereabouts in Portugal are you? Like north, south?
Alvera. Okay. Cool, cool, cool. In the middle. Okay, okay. And so we can go several different paths.
What do you want to talk about first? I'm curious to know more about down to earth. Before, like,
what is in a tree ecosystem? Have you worked? I'm just a community member.
I've been following Cardano since 2021, and just keeping informed about the evolution
of the ecosystem. I don't have any kind of connection with Web three. My job is
completely different. I work in the insurance fields, and I'm just a believer in the in the project.
Cardano sees the beginning. Sometimes it's not been easy,
but I still I still keep getting information and. Involved just superficial with with the community,
nothing like you guys. Okay, so overall, do you feel like okay? Okay. Then, tell me one thing.
Para ti, Cardano è. . . Eu estava a explicar que o 45b tem dois. . .
Tornou-se como quase dois projetos paralelos. Eu estou a pensar quase em registar manter o
45b.io para formação, apoio à gestão e gestão de produto, mas também registar o 45b.org
para facilitação de comunidade, ferramentas de governância, discussões sobre governança em geral.
Quais destes dois universos são a Cardano para ti? Cardano para ti é mais produtos Web3
ou é mais comunidade e network state? Para mim, em particular,
neste momento não será nem um nem outro, apesar de que provavelmente é mais facilmente
me envolveria na governança do que do que no resto. Mas, para não ser, como eu disse,
tenho mantido uma ligação, mantido.
O acompanhamento diário e quase desde 2021 da da evolução do do projeto,
mas nunca me envolvi quer em governança quer em algum tipo de empresa que desenvolva projetos
no no E3. Apenas acreditei desde o início quando comecei a pesquisar sobre o que que era
a cripta o que que que era este mundo,
a Cardano pareceu-me ser um um ambiente onde e uma uma criptomoeda
que eu achava que acho que teria mais futuro de de atingir algo. Em relação às premissas todas que
a Bitcoin criou quando foi lançada, achei que a Cardano seria uma evolução da Bitcoin e
que seria teria teria um resultado, teria sucesso no mundo. Acha que o adicionar governança àquilo
que eu costumo dizer que a Bitcoin é cega, surde e muda é uma força para Cardano? Sim, sem dúvida.
Apesar de que, como se viu também nos últimos um dois anos, ainda precisa de limar algumas
arestas e escalar porque tem Mas acho acho acho acho que é essencial. Ao final, cabo. Senhor,
isso é aquelas questões. Eu trabalho com governança há vários anos, e eu sinto que
tenho a resposta para os problemas da governança da Cardano. Já organizei assembleias cidadãos na
vida real,
ok? Trabalho com sistemas de votação online com a melhor empresa do mundo na área. Muito bem.
Okay. And I just wanted to welcome him and invite him up. We're talking a bit about Cardano,
and we've narrowed it or we've branched between the business side and just Cardano as IT
for businesses or blockchain for businesses, or Cardano as a governance space.
I think we we've all focused more on governance. And Nerve was just saying
he he literally works with the best governance systems in the world for the real world,
and he would love to work more with us. So as an introduction to Mark,
who also is building a governance tool on Cardano, and who knows the you know all the variables
and all the the data structures that entail governance on Cardano. Yeah,
it would be good to bounce whatever what both you guys do from from each other.
And and try to see what comes out of it. No, can you? I see. You said you dropped something
on the chat. I'm not sure. I see it yet. Web three consulting, Dendor. Okay.
And do you this this other system that you mentioned, the the voting system?
Could you drop a link for that one? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sure. I can. You can steal from.
Technology. I don't care. When when I am working with the, but no. I will. I will share.
I will share another thing. Okay. I will share this one. Okay. Okay. So,
what do you want to tell me, Lucas? What do you want to learn exactly? Ask me the question. Well,
you mentioned that you were talking. It's very. Yeah. What? I think overall,
when you said you worked with one of the best voting systems in the world for real-world voting,
I think. Okay. Uh yeah, I'm curious to know a bit more. Okay. I'm gonna back up what I said. Okay.
Okay. So we are a. I'm member of a cooperative. Mhm. Which is called Uma Boquestão. A good question.
On the comment section. Okay, and this is a artistic, cultural, education kind of thing movement.
And the good thing and the funny thing about cooperatives is that they are the closest legal entity
to a DAO. The cooperatives, because in cooperatives every member can can only have one vote
in the assembly. It does not matter how many how much money you invest in the company,
because cooperatives are a company. So this company Mobilstone, legally,
from the point of view of of as a legal standing, is very close to a DAO because it's a cooperative.
So in the Portuguese context, a cooperative would be a group of farmers
or something in a in a geographic common ground, right? This is what in the Portuguese context
this is what is most known or most common thing to have like wine cooperatives, honey cooperatives,
azeite, how do you call azeite? Olive oil. Oil cooperatives, but this one is a cultural cooperative.
It works in the cultural culture aspect. And that sounds great. And we are developing.
A strategic partnership with Vodoni. You know Vodoni. I don't. Maybe Mark knows.
Maybe we can pass him the mic for a second. Vodoni is a Spanish company. That yeah.
I just drop in say hello guys quickly. Hello, welcome. Yeah, hey buddy,
it's nice to hear you guys talking about governance. Not nice to talk about governance.
It's Saturday. It's probably not nice, but it always for some reason drives us always back
to those complicated conversations, isn't it? One thing you said quickly though is you mentioned
how. The closest fit to a DAO in legal entity, which is a real interesting point,
because when Intersect first set up, that that discussion was going down, and like kind of
how how is this going to translate into a proper legal entity, and where should it be set up,
and how should it be operated, and ultimately they left went with
a members based organisation structure. Which now has its problems because it's not like a DAO
because it has a board that can hire and all this other bit. So it's just really interesting hearing
you say that because I think that's a crux of the matter when it comes to companies
or entities like Intersect and the struggles they've had with the community. So, but anyway,
carry on, mate. Thank you, upstream. This is exactly what I was saying to Lucas. I was, Mr. Lucas,
I was telling him that I'm working full time in governance and Web3 entrepreneur for
like five years, and I'm also Portuguese. So, and Lucas was saying he's not sure about the future
of 45B. And he was sharing that. Of course, it's staying alive, but maybe some changes.
And I was telling him, it would be sad to see these changes if, without us ever working together,
it does not make sense to me. So, as I was saying, as a legal standing,
cooperatives are the closest to a DAO. And if we want to go into details,
the only thing which is not really like a DAO is the a direção. I don't know how to say in English.
Direção is the The board or the board of directors, probably. Yeah, the executive board.
Let's call it. It's the only thing which everything else is because all members of the cooperative
have one vote, regardless of how much tokens or money or whatever they have.
So the cooperative itself is very democratic. Then who executes the orders?
It's always a group that needs to execute. This, but anyways, this is my understanding.
And then I was sharing as well that this cooperative, which I'm a member of,
is developing a strategic partnership with Vodoni. And Vokdani, which I shared also the links
in the comment section, is an end-to-end verifiable decentralized voting system.
Decentralized means it uses blockchain. They use their own private blockchain,
but I believe the same algorithms—I believe I'm sure—the same algorithms can be adapted to
other networks. But they run their own private network. Okay. End to end means the voter can verify
the vote without trusting a third party. We have a key, which is our password. We submit the vote.
The vote is encrypted. I have my key. I can decrypt and check. Oh, my vote is there. It's correct.
Okay, cool. I don't need to trust anybody to to see my vote. My vote is there. It's good.
And then even to the counting, the final counting, the tally, let's call it correctly, the tally.
You don't need to trust anyone because there are cryptographic algorithms that allow you to compute.
On top of cipher texts, on top of cryptography, you can do computation.
So you can do the tally without trusting, and you can check your own vote without trusting.
Both things you cannot do with paper voting. Of course, there's no perfect system.
There's always small details which you why, how can we trust, blah blah. And even on paper voting,
by the way, there is also sometimes sketchy, sketchy things. Anyways, I could dwell on
the differences from a technical point of view of end-to-end verifiable online voting
and paper voting and Decentralized voting systems and what's the this would require a session,
which I'm open to do. So, do we have this cooperative that is developing a strategic partnership
with Vakdani? And why I say Vakdani is number one in the world because they are not first.
Their system is end-to-end verifiable. Most online voting systems are not end-to-end verifiable.
Okay, most DAOs which use token voting, it's not really end-to-end verifiable because you can check
your vote, but is your vote private? One hundred percent private, and you can check it,
and you tally. They have state of the art, let's call it state of the art.
They use state of the art systems, and they have done votings for municipalities in Spain.
They are working with University of Barcelona. They did a voting session for
Barcelona Football Club. They did more than 500 voting sessions for real companies,
not treasury management for token based. This is why I'm saying they are the best. But I invite you,
if you want to do your own research, you you can do it, and I think you will understand
why I'm saying this. So just to be clear, two quick questions. You're saying it is. Public,
verifiable, but also private in a way that people don't know that what sense you voted in. Exactly.
Okay. So yeah, the vote is secret, but you can verify that your vote was accounted the way
you voted. Yeah, and this is end-to-end verifiable. And I will check some documentation,
some scientific papers. I'll share you one of my favorite one, as far as I know. Oh,
it's here already. I'm going to share you my favorite one. You have a white paper there.
You can read it yourself and get a better grasp, a better idea what end-to-end verifiable means.
The link I share, the repo, is a proof of concept that we forked and we developed on.
We we developed Hull, the proof of concept, and we built on top of it.
But Vokdani is a different company from Spain, and they have real use cases, like more than 500.
So yeah, this is it. We are cooperative, so we are legally close to DAO. We are working.
I would argue the best in the team in the world doing this, which is Vokdani,
developing a strategic partnership, and Lucas. On top of all of that, I have organized
civic assemblies, which is another thing. A civic assembly, okay? It's another thing. Yeah.
We've done a bit of them. I'm smiling because we've done a bit of them in Port, in in Cardano.
I was going to say Portugal. Oh, citizen assemblies. Well, not literally civic assemblies,
but when I was pointing you to our website, the constitutional workshops that we've done,
and from those we elected representatives for different countries, and we met in Nairobi, Kenya,
to debate our constitution. Then we met again in Argentina to further debate the constitution
and to sign it. So I think those would be sort of like the equivalent. But in our case,
we have like a global gathering of people with different mindsets. And also, most importantly,
with different levels of, let's say, sophistication to debate these matters, you know,
so the conversation tends to either go way too technical, to governance technical, or way too low,
like too slow when we're just discussing if time and effort include, or if effort includes time,
or if we should write there time and effort. So yeah, some some of those were a bit tedious
or or you know, discouraging. Do you feel that as well? The difficulty between sophistication
of different speakers, different members of the community. How did you
how did you tackle the common pitfalls of your civic gatherings, if that's the word?
So I I followed from far what's happening in Cardano, and actually most of what I know came from
things you shared, Lucas. So yeah, I far from I followed from afar, but I would like to clarify
one thing, which is the difference between a normal assembly. A popular assembly
and a citizen assembly, because a citizen assembly is somewhat recent method.
It's very specific deliberation method. It's something very specific. It's not the same
as a gathering of people to discuss some topics. It's not only that. But I know
I'm going to be bored, so I ask you to pick a coffee or drink a glass of water,
and I kindly ask you to bear with me and be patient for five minutes when I explain. Okay,
so you can explain the difference between these three types of assemblies. Yes, sure. Normal,
popular, and citizens' assembly. Yeah, let's go for popular first. The popular assembly is
when someone writes a a um how is it a poster a post aye a poster a poster makes a poster
an announcement okay and the announcement it says day twenty five seven p.m. We are going to discuss
this topic anyone you want to come show yourself and we you are welcome this is a popular assembly
okay what is a Assembly at the parish, parish assembly. I think upstream. If you are from the UK,
imagine from your accent. And in UK, I'm not sure if you have a parish. Do you call it a parish,
or you have a different name for local organization? Council maybe. Yeah, we have local councils.
Local council. Parish council. So a popular assembly is like what I said. You make a poster,
you announce, blah blah. Local council. It's different because you have an announcement
that in this day we are going to discuss. Everyone is welcome, but. The agenda is already defined by
the the local councils, and you typically there is no debate. There is no everyone
can everyone can only speak for five minutes, and then the local councils they say, okay,
we took note of what you said. At the end, we are going to gather everyone's input, and at the end,
we are going to reply to each one of you. This is usually what happens,
and it's typically one session. A city's an assembly. First, ah, and the local councils.
Anyone can come. Yeah, anyone can come. And in this aspect, it's similar to a popular assembly.
The difference between a popular assembly and a local council would be that. In the local councils,
the president of the meeting has a lot of control of who can speak, how much time,
and there is really not much of a debate. It's more like a gathering of inputs.
At least that's what we had in in Argentina and and in Nairobi mostly. Really,
because the topics were already defined, and every time someone was asking like, "Aren't we?
Shouldn't we talk about this?" The response from the facilitators was, "That's out of scope." Okay,
so this is because it wasn't in their agenda. This is typical of a local council
or assembly at Fregzi. Okay. And and typically in a popular assembly, a lot of people get together.
A lot of people start to talk, and there's too much noise, and no one's no one
understands each other. This is in a popular assembly, and then yeah, so it's the opposite. Yeah.
And the demagogue takes power, takes place, and speaks in the local council.
Everything is restricted. There's not much debate, and the agenda is already set for
by the facilitators. Let's say a citizen assembly is first who can participate.
It's not like anyone can come, like a popular assembly or the assembly of Fraxia.
It's a sampling of the population. We do a sortition. First, we invite the entire population.
Do you want to participate? People say yes or no. Of those who say yes, we want to participate.
We gather these data, and we do a random sortition. We we do a sampling. We say, like for example,
we want 50% females, 50% males, people aged from 18 to 28, 28 to 32, etc.
We want people with more than 5,000 tokens of Cardano. People with and we do a we stratify.
And we then we do a sortition, random. So we don't know who's gonna come. We do a sortatio,
a random sortition. I think by sortition you mean draw, right? You you do a random draw.
We do a draw. Only people who are drawn. First we we divided the population in segments,
like I said. Then we do a draw. Then people come to participate. So it's not like anyone can come.
And this draw thing, this sortition draw thing, is very important because this is how we filter
the demagogues or those who have more influence, or have more power, or have more whatever.
This is how we filter. And then there's another aspect of a citizen assembly. Typically,
the citizen assembly does not last one session or two sessions. Typically, it's two to three months,
if not more, multiple sessions. And at some point. To be a real citizen assembly,
you need to invite specialists to come to the assembly and to explain what we are discussing,
why are we doing this, blah blah blah, from a technical point of view. And then, after
all these two months, three months process, we do a voting session, which never happens, by the way,
in a assemblyt frexia or a popular assembly. Well, maybe in popular assembly sometimes they do
a voting sessions, but what I meant is that citizen assembly is a very structured process
and it has all of these small details. So at the end of the citizen assembly.
You have a sampling of your DAO, of your ecosystem. You do a sampling, so
and a sampling typically is representative of the larger. This is statistics, social sciences.
So we apply social sciences. We do the structured deliberation, and at the end we do
a voting session. So this is the difference. So I believe for DAOs to work, you need to have
online voting. You need to do a sampling of the DAO, a citizen assembly,
and there is a third aspect which is even more. Less people know about this,
which I don't want to bother because I already said too much information. But maybe Lucas,
another conversation you can continue, which is about fractal democracy and how you can structure
small groups which are interconnected in a fractal way so that information spreads exponentially
between the groups. But this is another thing. To say, Lucas, I'm so much into this. No,
you're going to talk with one of the people who dominates me. I'm talking,
and it's just us two working. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So that Portuguese part
was just like let's get collaborating together. Yeah, this is this is in a way exactly what
I've been lacking or what we've been looking for. I'm I'm not you know no one here
or almost ideally no one speaks for Cardano, right? And 45p is basically just myself.
Upstream is maybe Mark and a few colleagues, but. That's how it started, right?
Like for for at least for me, Cardano started by the three founding entities. Now we have some more.
I usually say, without meaning too much offense, we have some more incumbents that were hired
and put together, you know, and paid for for by by the founding entities themselves. Anyway,
so they're still being steered by the founding entities. I would argue, and. We need
more communities. Like for me, when I joined Cardano, the home for me on was Gimbal Labs,
and which is a very small community of a handful of people facilitating mostly technical onboarding.
Although they they like to see it more from a, and they're right. It is very human.
It's a very human and and mindful space for collaboration on Cardano. Right, so.
I think it's up to a lot of these organizations that, unfortunately, have been dimming.
We had Cardano for Climate, we had Little Fish, we had Cardano Builders.
A lot of these communities were handful of people each, and most of them have now retired. Also,
because some of them were on the oxygen bubble that was Catalyst, not just because Catalyst Catalyst
is our innovation fund nerve. I'm not sure if you know it, but So they were handing out
small subsidies for ideas that you put forward, and I think those were motivating a lot
of these communities. Maybe some more than others. Gimbalabs, for example, has been around,
and and continues to be around regardless of catalyst. I'm around regardless of I'm I only.
I only got like two small grants from from Catalyst, and I'm not concerned with getting much more
because we, our goal, at least from the commercial side of 45B, is to provide services
and be profitable out of those, not to be leeching the governance, the the financial side
of the governance. But yeah, this is exactly what what we need to facilitate better calls.
The thing now is to manage our energy. And 45P has has invested some time in doing Google Meets.
We've done, we've been doing these spaces. We've done the Dred Pioneers. We've done the workshop,
the constitutional workshops. So between some of those being funded and others being pro bono,
we need to manage our our energy. But ideally, we'll continue to have. The core facilitators
and and engine of of each of these small communities and a tail of the comet in a way
that still like hangs out and and comes to to the calls and and facilitates some discussions
that feed into each other, right? Do you know like are you more active in a specific blockchain in
in these kinds of of activities of small communities? Yeah. So you know,
like I know that you're chain agnostic, but is it could it be the case that you're too chain
agnostic that you don't really know in detail what's happened on Cardano,
what's happened in Polkadot, what's happened in Tezos, or you know, too
and too agnostic to this point. Typically, I work with Solidity because it's as easier
or more a bigger ecosystem, not because I'm more fan of Solidity than other. The technology itself,
yeah. And I know Polkadot because they have offices in Lisbon. So I know the community,
and I would say the same thing for ICP because ICP has presence in Lisbon, also know the community.
Other than that, yeah, I don't know. Okay. So, like, what would it take for Cardano to also have
an office in Lisbon? Is it like just a room in a cowork? Is it like they have a meetup every week?
How do you describe these? Ecosystem is about meetups first, okay? Which is, by the way,
quite quite dying recently in Lisbon. Lisbon was very active. Now it's getting a little bit lower
on this. But even if Lisbon, I was in Lisbon this time. Actually, my photo was on the
on the newsletter after the event. I'm the guy in the photo. And even if Lisbon was like
with not much participants, so the whole movement is slowly fading. But it's all about.
It's a bear market. Because it's all about meetups. It's all about meetups. And for someone like,
but you are in. How much? Santana is not far from Lisbon, right? No, it's like under one hour
by train. Yeah, by train, right? So you can come by train. Yeah. I would suggest you know the block
for sure. They have offices there. Sure. Yeah, I'm in touch with with the manager of the block.
We've hosted at least one small event there, and I'm curious to do more. Yeah,
if if I were to be looking for an office space, maybe I would host myself there in the beginning
or something. I don't know, but you have many. That's a good idea. It's but you are right.
It's all about having an office space, co-working space, and doing community events with some food
and stuff. And also, coming back, zooming out a bit, the whole community engagement that
you were talking about depends on, like I was saying as well, the chains sprinkling things,
sprinkling some incentives, organizing all these co these meetups. You know, you go there,
you get a free drink, you get some hat, some airdrops or whatever. And I think
we we really need to roll over the whole culture. Because there's a lot of people that just want to,
you know, flip things and make a buck, and that's it. And so that's why I usually distinguish 45p
from from crypto, because we're about building sound gamification business models on top of Web3,
on top of blockchain, or Facilitating the governance side and the community side,
but the topic is never how to flip things, how to put your money in this protocol
and then get a collateral token and put there somewhere, put put that collateral
token somewhere else so you can you can leverage the returns. I just you know I don't think
that's going to be conversely. The the that financial side is what moves people
and and we also like suffer when. We're in a bear market, and there's no grants,
and there's no anything to to to have meetups and to get people talking. The problem, I think,
is that we go, we've gone through at least one or two cycles of crypto bull runs and crypto meetups,
and the conversations are usually steered towards, especially in the ETH space,
how to leverage your funds and get some interest rate, some some yield on it. Do you feel
that as well when you go to these spaces? I was very critical during ETH's one, very critical.
I even left a message. On the Discord, and apparently I was in the newsletter photo, as I said.
But I was like, I'm trying to find the the comment now, so I can read it.
Because we were the only ones, as far as I know. Yeah, this is the message I sent them. On behalf of
Umubokstein Cooperative, we would like to thank blah blah blah. We are a cooperative made of
ordinary people across the port in Portugal, across different ages, groups, professions,
blah blah blah. Our belief, our challenge was to explore how online voting can strengthen democracy
by helping us to understand truthfully, transparently what people think and want.
Blah blah blah blah. One question. Blah blah blah blah blah blah. One question has stayed with us
throughout this hackathon. Why are so few people building the future of digital democracy?
Because most of the people there, Lucas. They were working, as you said, on DeFi protocols,
and yeah, how to make a buck on crypto. And we were the only ones doing governance and that shit.
And I was like, okay, we are the only ones in Lisbon, man. This is it's over, it's dead.
So I I made this. I was very critical. Yeah. Yeah. So that that sort of brings me a bit like being
a sort of a Bitcoin maxi monetarily in terms of macro. What I've learned over the past five years
in crypto is like. If you really want safe yields or safe valuations or something,
or or to just not even like to consider it an investment, but to consider it a savings,
you probably should just DCA slowly into Bitcoin and you know self custody securely manage
your tools, and that would be the the safest thing you could do. And when you forego
that the the opportunity cost of doing that to buy dollars and to put them in a protocol just to get
two percent yield or seven percent yield whatever. It's it's sort of a joke to me, to be honest,
because if you do your homework and you understand how much Bitcoin itself is just going to
is is going to continue valuing, um, I don't know, it's just like there's for me it's a no-brainer
to sort of almost ignore all the DeFi protocols and like Bitcoin Maxi say, focus on your craft
and provide value for others so you can have a monthly let's say income and then save in Bitcoin
or something like that. So for me, the use of DeFi is marginal, and then the use
of blockchain is All about Web3, not DeFi. But you know, maybe I'm too biased.
It's not just to say that. It's in that sense that if I compare ADA to to Bitcoin, you know,
I don't measure Cardano based on the value of ADA, and I don't compare the value of the valuations
of ADA or the the growth or the performance to the ones of Bitcoin because they're
completely different things. ADA for me is just digital terrain on like this condominium
or this cooperative, like we were discussing, which is Cardano. And you know, it's the rest.
I think is the buzz that society feels from from centralized exchanges,
marketing crypto as an investment medium. Any any feedback on on all this from from both of you?
Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, you know, this is it's very much a dot com bubble, right?
Where a new tech, a new technology has come in. It's it. It genuinely solves a real problem,
and we're we are going through the diffusion of innovation and trying everything with it.
And the best things that we've come up with so far are, from my view, how to make a quick buck
with a bunch of meme coins. It's always going to happen. We've figured out
that you can do governance and you can verify things remotely and securely and prove it.
So that's the real problem. Like we've unpicked that. Like Pandora's out the box.
There's now a tool to do this real high-level engagement stuff without the middleman. But obviously,
the middleman is not going to take a step back. I.e., the government's current control systems,
whatever they may be, they'll try and use it to their own ends and keep their pre-existing control.
But from my perspective, the main thing we discovered is removal of the middleman. Right. So
how how that plays out, I think, is kind of what what we're seeing. Like Nerve,
I've never met you before, but you you've come to this blockchain space
and You're talking about using that functionality that you trust and know what works in
your ecosystem, and like on my side, I've got this little Asian Hornet community,
and we're in discussion so that they can vote on how to approach that community problem. And again,
the answer that's come, only answer that's coming up is blockchain technology. And I think more
and more communities, the further we go, are going to slowly realise that,
and eventually there'll be a fleet of communities using tools out of necessity.
And that's where we'll really see blockchain taking like taking taking its mantle, in my view.
But all the hype stuff and everything else is just noise. They don't answer a need other
than dopamine hit, but that's not a need. That's you get that anywhere, right? Yeah, and and rugging
other people. Ah, that's part of the dopamine hit, man. People like to rug people, I guess. Okay,
I want to say welcome to Shaggy, but I also wanted to give Nerve an opportunity to reply on on what
I was pointing out, like blockchain as a medium of sound, creating sound solutions,
not just flipping things. Yeah, just as I told you, I was in Lisbon. Everyone was doing DeFi.
I was the only crazy one working in governance. And by the way, what we were doing was we were using
the digital identity of World, right? The World Coin. They have. They are working on a digital ID.
And we were connecting it to a voting system. So we are in by and imagine Lucas by doing so,
because World ID is operating worldwide. We were creating a platform where anyone on the world
with their passport, they can do the NFC sign up with a passport, which is very hard to fake,
and they could vote. This is what we were doing, which is not defi. And then I even made some memes.
I'm going to share with you on the comments some of the memes on the comment section.
Some of the memes I made for this. Hold on. Okay, so again, before we we just hand over to Shaggy
for a second, I wanted to give you some feedback before I forget. Nerve,
I would really love to see the the website Uma busca style translated to English because you know in
these conversations it would be great. You you've just dropped it on the chat here,
but being just in Portuguese, I think it's a bit limiting. Or you know anyone can translate it
client side on their side, but it would be good to have your own copy in in English as well. And
the Vort Dony, I think you you mentioned. If you could drop a link for that system,
it's there as well. Under the One good question, website and Lucas, one good question.
We are open to everyone who wants to join us, so I kindly invite you to join
and maybe help us with the translation. Translate it myself. Yeah, because we are we are doing
so many things; it's hard to to do everything. That's why it's not translated. Yeah, not
because we don't. Okay. And and the link for for the system is it in your website
or maybe I don't see it under the under mobile question. Yeah, it's probably. Have you seen it?
And I'm going to show you, which I forgot to tell you. But you mean in their webs in in your website
or in the chat here? In the chat, it's under the comments of Mubokstam in the chat. Ah, okay,
now I understand. I need to click it and see the repos under it. Yeah. Cool. No,
there's one which is locked on it. I will tell you now. Okay, I just paid. Okay,
I'll find it afterwards as well, and I'm opening some tabs. This is the the the Spanish company
which we are working already. Helping a strategic partnership, we are working together,
and there is a cooperative and other things. And I'm gonna share some memes I made during it.
Hold on. Yeah, which come back to the cultural facilitation of an engagement of people. Ah,
by the way, I forgot to say, Lucas, I also shared now. We have our own civic tech lab,
so it's a laboratory where we explore civic technology and civic things and civic ideas
and how we can, in a creative way, use voting. Okay, since we're we're on that point, I'm curious.
With all this work, how are you funding it, or what's the business model, or what's the angle there?
Yeah, so endorsement, which is one of the projects which is there as well, which is not,
it's not a civic tech lab, it's not a cooperative, it's not a voting system, it's another thing.
It's the endorsement is very similar to 45B actually. It's a platform to onboard non Web3 users
to the Web3 ecosystem, and it's a platform to fund, and this is where we channeled. Some funding.
It's on the footer on the endorsement website. You can see on the footer. Yeah. And other than that,
the cooperative itself, the cooperatives are not. They are like companies.
They have some special DAO thing. Like they cannot have, no particular profits.
They cannot have profits. But they can, they do operate economically, and because.
So I see from the endorsement.com website on the footer, I also see that you got support
from the Portuguese government and institutions. Is that it? Just public funding. It's not.
We are not working directly with the government. Just public funding. This is the endorsement,
but the cooperative, as I said, cooperatives are like a mixed between. It's like a social company,
but it's a company, so it has an economic activity. And in the cultural side,
and when you when you work with culture, it's easier to operate in the real world.
It's easy to to seek funds, to make partnerships, etc. Then, if you are a fully digital thing
and with no real world presence, so the cooperative is supporting the financing
and the operations of all of these that we are we were just discussing. Okay, cool.
Thanks for sharing. I think let let's flip the page a bit and welcome Shaggy as well.
I see you were mentioning something. A new Cardano dex fixing soon. You're kidding, aren't you?
Okay. Thanks for joining us. I know it's very early for you, and unfortunately,
I think we lost Mark. We're we're a bit over time already. I usually start this at 9:22
and and take it all the way to 10:27. So I'm not sure if anyone else wants to share a bit more
before we start wrapping up. We're getting some people on and off, jumping in the space. Yeah,
I was dropping out, so had to rejoin. Yeah, I was just saying we're a bit over time already,
and it was a great discussion about governance. I'm not sure exactly how we can follow up,
but I'm really interested about all these structures that Nerve was was going through. Structures
or processes, but and also it's interesting to see that what we've been experiencing on Cardano
by the founding entities facilitation is basically what he described as a local council
where the agenda is defined by the council and people only speak for five minutes.
It's a unilateral type of remarks voicing, and then they go away and do whatever they want anyway.
And with the citizens assembly, we go through gathering, you know, people that want to come,
and then sampling and doing a draw, and then inviting SMEs, doing the debate,
and eventually going all the way to this concept of a fractal governance, right?
So thanks for for sharing all this, Nerf. It's really inspiring because I've been hosting
some governance discussions, and it's very unstructured. And maybe this is going to get,
at least for some specific topics. To dive into some specific topics, like maybe D rep compensation
or something like that, yeah, knowing that there are these processes and formats is going to help
a lot. Not sure if Bogdor Mary wants to say something and just to say hi
and let us know what you've been up to. Yes, hello everyone. Have you been all good? I'm I'm good.
How about you? Yeah, it was my birthday yesterday, so I have a very slight hangover,
and I'm happy to be here and mingle a bit with you. Happy belated birthday! Thank you so much. Yes.
Guess what? I turned 45, so now I'm 45, trying to run a 45B initiative. Yeah. Okay.
I see Shaggy is coming back. I'm not sure if we can still bring. Oh no, he's intermittent. So yeah,
again, last round of time, passing the mic around as we like to do. For any more like updates
from everyone, from everyone, from anyone. Mark, what have you been up to?
It's good that you could join us for a bit today. Yes, let me just come in, Lucas. Oh, sorry, sorry.
Please do. Ask what um I've been building on. So I'm with um, Oxygen Global.
I don't know if you heard of. Of course, Bernard Cibanda, right? Yes, yes.
And I don't know if you are aware, um, we are organizing in-person events. Oh, that's cool.
Different countries. So we are just working on that. Also, um, with Akiba Protocol,
they are trying to bring traditional um ways of savings and taking loans into a decentralized way.
That's um on Cardano, you can take loan. Or credits. Yeah. So we've been working on that.
How does that work? Is it like fully on chain, and how did you? Are you still just building
the tech, or are you also going through the legal works to to take it live? Yes.
So right now we have we are almost done, and we are testing it. So I guess when it's ready,
we'll share. The EVM for the community to test with us and and see how it goes. Um,
you you said EVM, so are you building this on on Ethereum or any side chain of Ethereum?
It's on Cardano, but we're trying other, um, other a like we are just over trying to see
where it would work because of. Some issues the technical people have been facing. Yes. So. Okay.
So could you drop me some links or maybe add them in the chat of the space, um, for both things.
I'm curious about the events that Oxygen is organizing, and I think overall you described a way
of crowdfunding things. Okay. In yeah, was that was that the concept? Um.
So so that's something that I think we really really need on Cardano. There's someone in Japan
building a way of crowdfunding things. Maybe you could. Align with him
and see how your products could team up or complement each other. Okay,
I'll I'll share the yeah in the comment section. I'm also gonna try to I've been I've been making
a lot of notes on a notepad during the space and from time to time I also pass them on to Google Doc
to make it a bit more public. So everything you guys bring to these spaces gets like persisted in
sort of a blog. Thread in our website. I'm going to try to make that instead of a Google Doc,
make it like a banter. Dot forty five b. Io, and and you know keep this kind of log of things that
people facilitate that people mentioned in our spaces. So if you can't really put put it on the chat
after we close the space, which we're about to close the space, please send me some DMs
with the links for these two initiatives, and I'm going to make sure I include it in the show notes.
Let's say. Okay, thanks, Lucas. Thanks for mentioning it, and congratulations for the initiatives.
Thank you. Could you just tell me, like, for the organized events, what regions
and countries you're serving? Okay, okay, I'll I'll get that details then. Okay, okay. Again,
thanks for for mentioning. You're based in Nigeria, no? I'm in Ghana. Oh, okay, cool. Thanks.
I'm glad I asked because I often have been associating people to Nigeria by mistake. So Ghana.
Do you know what's name? I think I I sent that person an invitation just now.
Mohamed Mustafa Yakubu. Do you know him? Yes. Yes. He's in Ghana too, right? Yes. Yeah. Great guy.
Yes. Cool. Great stuff. Congrats, guys. Akiba joined. Could you say again?
I said Akiba Protocol just joined the. Okay. The projects I'm working on with them. Maybe
if you could invite him. Mm-hmm. Show more life. What we are building. Okay,
and that's the one for crowdsourcing, isn't it? Yes. Okay. Super. Hello. You're welcome to come up.
I've sent you an invite. We're a bit over time already, but it would be good to hear a quick pitch
on your protocol values and approach. So hopefully you can come up. Meanwhile, again to Mark
and Nerve, open floor for a moment. Hello everyone. Thank you very much for inviting. Oh,
that was quick. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you very much. So could you give us a quick pitch on what
your protocol is about, what it does, and how you're taking it to market or where you are now? Yeah,
pleasure. Yeah, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity. Okay,
I'm I'm actually the part of the dev team there, part of also the conceptions. The Akiba protocol,
the Alladia, is based on the what exactly existing already. Okay, if you look in some regions
in Africa, in Asia. India, etc. People kind of using these saving systems for to create
credit opportunities because the bank system doesn't really you know cover I would say the big part
some big part of the populations there. So the idea is people put money together,
save money together, and decide at one point at one stage who's getting the the pool the pot
in a way. So that gives that that person the possibility to To realize his projects, etcetera,
buy a car, buy a house, or whatever. So we decided then to, after studying on Cardano technology
and so on, and we decided to put it on blockchain to actually use smart contracts to avoid
all the disputes that can happen in these kind of groups. So also we using this
like that flat model, and at the top of that. Using, adding some DeFi's possibilities,
like people can put the money together. The money is stayed at a certain pools, etc.,
and then create some interest, and then that can share that to the to the groups.
We have this flat system. We have also what we call this system, actually called Rosca,
and we have the the other system, which is more like I would say credit oriented. People will.
Pull money together for a certain period, and then the the community will vote,
will get the the pool, and so on and and so on. So this is roughly the the simple idea.
Sorry for my English. I'm not really fluent English. I'm trying to to make that's
that's great to make it through there. So we've been working on that. It's been around two years
now. We are kind of ready now to build a community around that. So yeah.
So I'm very thankful for Mary who who joined joined the project, and we we trying to work together
to. To bring people to discover these kind of credit opportunities that could it could happen for
for instance for for example there's a project here in France but they're quite they're based on
I would say they have like the Web2 approach and today they're up to like 10,000 users
so this kind this thing is quite popular and yeah we we hope to to bring that to also to blockchain
we are Looking to partner with some some locals banks is in Africa,
but this is not completely completely yet. But is on is on the ball there. Yeah.
So that's basically all I have to have. I hope I've been clear to explain the the concept. Yes.
But yeah. I think so. If you have questions, I. I could. We could do a whole session.
I would actually invite you to come by the next space we host, which is going to be. It's always
every five days. Okay. So today is a Saturday. The next one would be Thursday, right?
Two days before in the week. If you could come by there, we would have you know most of the session
to to go over a bit what what you do. Um. I what I gathered from my notes from what you just said.
Is firstly you're based in France, and and are you making it like legally headquartered there?
Have you catered to the legal side of the solution? Right. Okay. I'm personally based in France,
but the protocol, Akiba protocol, is is Oxalio Labs' projects. Oxalio Labs is a you know
young startup that we open in in Africa, in exactly in Côte d'Ivoire, and we are working on
blockchain solutions for for companies there. Ocalio Labs also have we we are
we've been contacted by the our government to to work on the payment system.
So we have some projects there. The company is based in in Africa in Cote d'Ivoire.
I'm personally based in in France, and then we have the other team member based in different part
of the Okay. We we started this space in Portuguese. We've gone through English,
and now I feel like I could say hi in French because I've worked in French as well,
and I can notice your accent, and it sounds really cool. Côte d'Ivoire is a Ivory Coast, right?
Yeah, so I just wanted to make that clear for for everyone in the space,
and I'm not going to go into like again all the details of your protocol,
but I feel like it's really interesting because on a first level, I heard save money together,
and that's like basic financial literacy, financial literacy in terms of like
why should you say what why should you try to find sound Stores of value for some time period
of time, so that you can have a savings to manage and to you know to be more robust financially,
and then decide how who's getting the pot is something that I was surprised because it goes into
governance and voting, but it's also quite altruistic, and it usually if if everyone saves for
that pot, and then you need to vote on who gets the pot. It should be something
for community development, right? Because everyone contributed, so could be infrastructure
or public goods or or something like that. So I'm very very interested to go into this
in more detail, but I would defer that for our next space on the next Thursday
or whenever you can make it. You know, we're going to be around. Thank you very much. Bye guys.
Okay, I think that that's it. That's I think all we have time for today.
One last round of of passing
the mic around for any last announcements that anyone that come to mind. Guys, any thoughts?
I see no reactions from Upstream Nerve. Thank you so much for everything you shared today.
We'll be here again on next Thursday, and thanks
to Falcofy as well for taking a peek at what we've been up to. See you around. Have a good weekend.
