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Cardano Newcomers Support || Ep. 23 || Panel Session w/@proof_partner
Recorded: July 20, 2025 Duration: 1:23:31Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hi, hello CK and Proof Partner. Happy Sunday. How how you doing today? Hello. Doing alright.
How are you? I'm fine. How are you doing today? Super duper. Can't complain.
Went to a friend's engagement party this weekend. What did you say? Oh,
I was just saying I went to a friend's engagement party. How are you? Oh, okay, okay. How about um,
Sikay? How you doing, Sikay? Good. The the markets are are really cooking,
and I think there's just so many positive catalysts here. And I feel like just the energy
in the space is getting better. I think we're seeing a lot of like maximalism
and toxicity dialing down because they're realizing, hold on, there's a real opportunity here.
And like I was just in a in a in a kind of more Bitcoin-centric space,
and I'm hearing they don't really want to kind of necessarily be all the way open
to what's happening in the market, but it was a space where they were saying,
let's have an open discussion, even if we don't agree with it, let's have this like open discussion.
And I'm like. Yes, that is the way. Because it's so funny, man. Like you've got people
that are really big fans of Bitcoin, right? And they obviously care enough about it to like argue
and and maybe even be like toxic about it. Which again, I don't think that's the best way
to grow community and like a persistent movement or just philosophy, right?
Like hate what I hate doesn't seem to me to have the legs that look what I'm building.
You know what I mean? Like excitement and energy and like positive vibes seems to be
just a more sort of self you know fulfilling prophecy. So yeah, like looking at the macro there,
looking at these markets and these catalysts that are coming. I mean, as always, like.
We see some of these like larger global conflicts and these things that are really sad to see,
you know. And those of us, you know, I mean, and that that sucks. At the same time, though, for
the last 40 years, right, like most people, wherever you've been coming up in the world,
we've really been like had a disservice done to us, like by our our the powers that be,
the governments that that that are kind of you know controlling our money and our and our politics.
And what I'm really loving is. The chaos that we see, I think, is a sign of the extremity
that the old systems find themselves in. They are afraid, yo, and like the dollar is dying,
and they're realizing that the only kind of safety line they have, the only lifeboat,
is a freedom-maximizing system. That is the reality. So as the dollar is dying, they can control.
They're like, shit. Our only move is Bitcoin. It's it's Litecoin is Cardano.
And those of us that are deep into the engineering here on Cardano, we understand
that Cardano is going to unlock that freedom of Bitcoin. Cardano isn't an enemy of Bitcoin.
It helps fulfill the vision of Satoshi to liberate us all under the individual globally,
beyond borders, beyond masters or kings or anyone that prints a money, right?
It's it's we create the value and we can hold it under the individual. So to land this this ramble,
I'm doing really great. I am doing my best to consciously ignore the noise because for
the last 40 years, all we've seen is the ways in which it has divided us.
Like I had a good friend reach out to me the other night and say, and she she was like on on game
where she was saying, hey, this is some thing that's happening and it was kind of
like a an aggressive bad movement that's happening out there. And I was like, you know what?
This is a bummer that this exists, but also understand like when we hear these Tales about
like Russian propaganda and bots. Sometimes when we hear a story that is scary and outrageous,
the intention is to have us distribute that story amongst our social network because that's like
free marketing, right? And so if we're shrewd about it, like unfortunately,
like if evil people are doing evil shit, we can use our fear and our pushback against the outrage
to propagate the message. I would even contend this current administration might not have ever been
the president had people not acted with such outrage at the beginning. But that's
eight years in the past and or more. I'm going to give a shout out to Cowboy Protocol
and Proof Partners. Um. Oh yes. Let's go. Can you can you tell me why you're more important
than fucking CK Cardona? He's very important. I think he's telling you to stop the ceremony.
Exceptions, I cannot be. That that's the thing. Proof partner over here,
and the cowboy protocol is a cowboy protocol. Yeah, cowboy protocol. Yeah,
Gold Rush is literally something that I cannot be. I am incapable of bringing that into reality
because Proof Partner is a unique, novel, exquisite. And that's why he's the guest,
and we we are just hanging out here. So we're landing that blank. Yeah, yeah. Come on, come on,
my man. Let let that guy speak. Yes. Thank thank you for the intro, CK. I like it. Uh,
I'll take it as uh the uh like the hype man for the uh before the rapper goes up, you know.
So I I'm I'm fine with it. Um, um, it was helping me get warm, but but uh yeah, yeah.
I'm on CK's team like as well. Like I want to fucking take over the fucking room like with him,
but I have to stop. I have to stop myself. Yeah. Well, with that, I guess Iommi, did you?
How were you thinking you wanted to to run this one? Okay. Hand it up there. Yeah. Basically,
you know, when we started the conversation, I asked how everybody was doing.
Proof partner said he was fine, and CK was also talking about how he's feeling. That's fine.
So the gold rush. So, proof partner, tell us what you do. Like, what what is the TLS thing? Like,
what is the zk TLS? Yeah, we definitely think Ayumi has questions prepared. Um, the Godwatch, yes,
we know that this is what we are having today, right? We're just trying to do um
little um opening remarks. Let me put it that way, right? Ayumi, I have to say that Ayumi,
I have to say that I agree with your perspective earlier when when we were talking about um.
How you know legacy works and things? I was right there on the same page with you. So yes,
thank you so much for saying all that. Thanks for understanding. I asked a simple question,
the God watch. I asked you, how are you doing? You've not answered me. Uh,
my wife busted me in the head with a beer bottle earlier, so like my head's bleeding, currently. Um,
uh, and you know, I it doesn't detract from anything that I'm saying right now. Like,
that's my real life. Wow, I think you should get that checked. If it if it's bleeding,
that could be serious. So sorry about that. Okay. Yeah. So Gora's like I'm.
I'm gonna hope that you're you're joking, bro. Um, but but if you if you aren't,
like they're saying, bro, take care of yourself. I'm sorry that that's happening to you,
and I'm not gonna get in your business, bro. But that to me doesn't seem healthy.
If you were a lady friend of mine, dude, you're a guy friend of mine. But you could be a guy friend
or a lady friend of mine. If I heard that someone's like you know intimate partner, wife, husband,
boyfriend, girlfriend was putting any kind of hands on them. Whether you're a man or a woman,
we have to respect each other. Fuck a goddamn gender, man. We're instances of sentience. So,
just random side comment. So, I hope you're doing all right, bro. And maybe just you know
some conversations, some music. And I'm fine. I'm fine. You know, I'm glad. You know,
I. I've been around a long time. I'm like 46 or 47 years old, and I've been hitting the head
so many fucking times. I'm good. Yeah, bro. Your brain. A lot of folks, like I said, bro,
they sleep on you. You are so much smarter than folks. Often, like no, those that no, no,
because game knows game. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like I don't have DMI or any of that shit.
Like I I don't have like the I don't have any of that problems that come up come about from
like brain problems, right? I literally do just encourage people to be on top of their shit.
Like Iommi's on top of her shit, and fucking fucking Zakk Credano, why you fucking like put me
on the fucking like the grilling thing? I'm sorry, bro. I just wanted to express care
because I don't know if it's all joking, so I kind of wanted to have it be both a joke track
and like a real track because that would make me honestly sad, bro. I don't. I just that.
But but pivoting because this is a no no. Honestly, like my wife busted my head earlier.
I'm sorry to hear that, bro. Yeah, definitely, man. I would, if she was my wife, I'd say, baby,
that was an extra step. If that happened again, I would be really, I'd be so upset
that I might have to literally like remove myself. That's what I said. That was an extra step, baby.
That's what I said. I was like, baby, that was an extra step. You didn't have to go there. You know?
Yeah. I was like, I was just playing the character at that at that moment. You know,
I was just playing the character at that moment, and then you fucking hit me in the fucking head
for real. Right. So, Corano, Hiomi, Yo, on on the, your your account was suspended recently,
and I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, thanks. Because, yeah, I've been I've you know similar things. Um,
but for sure, keep building. You like I've seen you in spaces before, and as you know,
you know once you get to a couple of us, I shout out to Satoshi's Bride.
You know you'll be able to find us and build the network again. So it's frustrating,
but maybe pivoting kind of to the larger conversation. We've got Atrium Labs, for instance,
that is going to be released soon, which is a social platform. So, how cool is it that building on
Cardano, we when we establish these presences and these followings, we'll be able to as easily
as sending like an Ada handle NFT, we'll be able to keep our social presence and our followers.
You feel me? Like with with cool things. So, where instead of having these discussions on Twitter
or X, we'll be having them on Cardano X. You know what I'm saying? So,
that kind of freedom is also coming. So, I have to ask if I could if I could borrow
ten thousand dollars from my four hundred one k. Like, should I do it?
What are you going to do with it, right? The question ultimately is the yield that you can get.
We're here to talk to Proof Partners, so maybe CK Cardano could just chill the fuck out
for a minute. Okay, guys. Okay, okay. Okay. Let's let's get to business. All right. Hi everybody.
Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you are. My name is Ayomi,
and I'm talking live from Nigeria. Okay. I can see Tamarkat in the building. Hello.
Thanks for joining the space. I see Island Ghost Stephanie. Thanks for joining the space.
This is Kadano Nkoma Support Space. We started about I think about about two months ago
or thereabout, and my account got suspended few days ago, so I created another account now and.
I continue from where I I stopped on the other account. Usually on Sundays,
sometimes on Sundays we have panel sessions. So today we have a panel session with Proof Partner.
Proof Partner is building something amazing, so I feel we could have him on board to talk about what
he's building and how the project is solving some real problems. Okay,
so I would love to give the mic to Proof Partner to introduce themselves.
I have a couple of questions already with me. I would ask some questions I have,
and also anybody that wants to ask him questions, you can always ask the question. But for now,
I'm going to give the mic to Proof Partner to introduce himself. Thank you, Proof Partner.
Can have the mic. Hi. Yeah, sounds good. So, hi everybody. I'm I'm Proof Partner on Twitter.
You could call me Jay if you want. And I'm currently the solo builder of Cowboy Protocol.
Which is a zkTLS protocol for Cardano. I've been building on substrate chains for a number of years
now. They were my intro to Web3. Before I got into zk, the bug which bit me about two years ago now.
At that point, I dove into a bit of the math behind zk. I got a bit pilled on zkVMs,
which kind of influenced how I built in the space. Around the same time,
I learned about zkTLS through specifically through the MPC TLS protocol being implemented by
Ethereum's privacy and scaling explorations team, and that protocol is called TLS Notary.
It's a central part of Cowboy Protocol. It's being extended on for Cowboy's protocol. And one day,
I saw there that zkTLS was gaining traction as kind of a category
because it enables bringing proving things about off-chain data, data any data from the web,
in an on-chain or provable sort of space. I saw that Cardano partner chains enabled a way to enable
richer functionality than other systems you might use by default. For example, Polkadot,
you wouldn't be able to do this there. So I was like, this might be a great opportunity.
That's that's how I got here. But I'm happy to dive into any of the other areas,
any any topics about cowboy or or however you'd like to take this. Okay. Thank you, Jay,
for the introduction. I appreciate that. My first question for you is why the name cowboy? Okay,
let me start with no. Let me start with this. Wait, wait, wait. Let me start with this one. Yeah.
Um. Okay. Can you can you tell us the story behind Cowboy Protocol? What inspired it? Yeah. Okay.
So not the name, but like what inspired uh the whole the whole idea. Um.
I touched on it a little bit in in my intro. I realized I brought it up kind of early. Um.
Like I mentioned, I had played around with some ZKTLs things a number of years ago. Um.
At this point, it wasn't really recognized as a category. Fast forward to now,
it is in several other ecosystems. Like it's, it's most definitely becoming a big thing on Ethereum.
And I, yeah, given given something I also hinted at earlier, in that through Cardano partner chains,
not only is there a strong way to implement something like this this specific flavor of ZK TLS
into the node. Through partner chains, it could be implemented in a very decentralized manner,
which is very important for zkTOS because centralizing factors impact zkTOS in a much more fatal way
than they do other protocols. Like you, you cannot have you basically cannot have any centralization
in this category of protocols, or else the proofs, the data can be faked completely.
And so Cardano is very decentralized. You can pass this decentralization onto the partner chains.
Couple that with the expressive. Environment you get with implementing a partner chain node
from scratch, and you're able to preserve a strong level of decentralization.
So I thought it would be a good place to build, kind of like something that would be a playground,
a good playground for developers to build on top of. Would be a good place to introduce zkTls proofs
that could be used not only off chain, like some protocols are doing, but on chain
from typical resources such as smart contracts, or in this case, other other programmers.
Custom integrations. So, I guess, yeah. To summarize it all, it's kind of a combination of
like the the richness of the partner chains framework, the level of expressiveness it would allow
me to give developers
who are building custom zkTLS integrations put together. I just thought it was very powerful.
Okay, um, that's that's awesome. Thank you. Um, I I I know you shared some documents with me,
and I went through them, so I was able to um gather some questions down. Um,
another question that I have for you is um for someone who is new to blockchain or uh
or private tech, how would you explain cowboy protocol in one sentence? Like, how would they
how how would they understand what the cowboy protocol is doing for someone that is new
to blockchain or Privacy tech, yeah. No fucking way, man. They have the. Yeah, I'm just,
I'm just a random fucking passerby, but there's no fucking way that like this shit is built for like
new people. This shit is built for people that fucking understand what the fuck is going on. I, I,
I think no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. I, I think we can get there. Um, I, I really do. It like,
I don't know if you looked at what I have so far. It's fairly scrappy. Um,
and it has a lot of technical details leaking outside. But it's a lot of that is because it's still
in an early state, and I would need to build a bunch of UX around these tools to make them ready
for people to readily use. I I so I I hope I I hope I address that Andrew. I also okay.
I'll answer try to answer this in one to two sentences. I think it might also be good to take a step
back and maybe define what I mean by zkTLS after I answer that. So, cowboy,
in this context for Cowboy enables you to prove any piece of data on any anything you see on the web
to any other party. Put simply, so it's yeah, the value is kind of kind of hidden behind what makes
a notion of proof valuable to you. Like you share a screenshot with somebody of something you did on
the web, you you kind of admit or maybe you ignore the fact that the screenshot could be altered.
Like especially if somebody's trying to get some some money from you for like some action
they did on the web with a proof, you can prove any pieces of data that's shown in that web
in that screenshot, and you can do so in a privacy preserving manner. So,
the example I always I always like to give because it it leads to a lot of use cases is say you have
a bank balance and there's some application that require that must know that your bank balance
is above say ten thousand dollars through a protocol like Cowboy you're able to log into
your bank account and initiate and create a proof of that data and this proof can say something
really custom in this case it says is your bank balance above ten thousand dollars
That proof is generated, and you can send it to the application. They can verify the proof,
and all they learned about you is that you have a bank balance above $10,000.
They don't learn the amount. They don't learn your name. All of that is kept private,
and that's all because somebody exposed the the explicit piece of data which you cared
about—just the condition whether it was above $10,000. So I don't think I hit one to two sentences.
I'm sorry, but I think it maybe we can make sense of this as we go. In this context,
I also want to talk about ZKTLS a bit because we've brought it up a few times. ZKTLS, in a way,
stands for Zero Knowledge Transport Layer Security. TLS, Transport Layer Security,
is what secures all the web requests and responses from any clients to any web servers.
So adding zero knowledge in front of TLS says any data in those within that TLS session,
I'm able to to enable privacy for. I'm able to prove, and I'm able to prove facts about. Okay, yeah.
So okay, maybe I feel like I've given a lot. So maybe we can unpack, or or we can go ahead
with the rest of the questions. Um. Okay. I still have more questions for you,
but I don't know if someone else have questions for you before I continue.
Does anybody have questions for Proof Partner? Oh, I see, Sir Lord in the building. Hello, Sir.
Thanks for joining the space. And I see Sir Toshi Braid. Thanks for joining the space. Okay,
I guess no question from anybody yet. Okay. Um. Let me ask another question that I have here
with me. Um, I want to know why. Um, okay, okay. Let me put it this way:
How does um cowboy use the ZK TLS to bridge the gap between private web data and blockchains?
Yeah. So. Um. I'll try to wrap this up. I'll try to I'll try to to put this as briefly as I can.
In this case, we we use the ZK TLS protocol through our our browser. Right now,
this is kind of the this is the entry point for any web data that a user wants to prove to bring to
the blockchain, which in this case is our custom partner chain. So the first step is
a browser extension. So we have a browser extension which we forked from TLS Notary that allows
us to take your browser and jointly with one of our Notary servers, where a Notary server is
just a piece of open source software that runs with our partner chain nodes.
Jointly with that server, you create you initiate a TLS session with the web server. You know,
replace web server with any website you care about, TikTok, Make of America, etc. And this process,
through the typical TLS Notary protocol, generates a. I'm not sure what I want to call this one
in terms of the other proofs that you can create in Cowboy. I guess you could say
a TLS Notary proof. And this is this is like the actual proof of your web data.
This is what contains any fields that you you wanted to disclose from your bank interaction
in this case. And again, this is generated in your extension. So we have sort of
a wallet-like interface that we built on top of that extension. From there,
the extension interacts with a local prover, which can do the zk the zk proving.
That's specific to any custom integration. It might be good to dive into what a custom integration
is in Cowboy, but for the intents and purposes of this question, let's just imagine an integration
is like a program. The program can say something simple like bank balance is greater
than ten thousand. So the prover takes that logic, it receives the proof data
and any data that that was sent in the TLS session, and it says, "Let me run my program over it.
Let me run whichever custom integration is relevant for this website and the name
of the integration." Okay, the integration says bank balance is over 2,000.
I'll generate a proof of that, and then I'll only output whatever data the developer specified.
In this case, let's say the developer just specified a true or a false if the person is over.
So that proof is generated and it's immediately sent on chain to be verified. So
once the the proof is sent on chain and verified, it kind it's kind of like issuing a stamp
that this proof is set in stone. This fact is verified about this individual, and on chain
or off chain applications are able to refer to that fact from that point on.
Yeah, thank you, Profat, now for the elaboration on that question. Thank you.
I have about three more questions for you. Okay. Another one is, excuse me. Uh huh. Can can yeah?
Can cowboy be used? Oh, sorry. Can cowboy be misused to fake or manipulate data proofs? Yeah.
It's a good question. I think this might be a security question. Okay. So, yeah,
I can answer this one. So whether it can be used to manipulate or send
fake proofs all depends on the two underlying protocols for Cowboy. The first one is called
TLS Notary. It's a well-known MPC project which forms the initial proofs about the web data.
If there's a if there's an ability to fake, okay. So let me go through the next one first,
and then I'll I'll come back to the condition that would allow for this.
The other protocol that that Cowboy heavily relies on is a very popular zkVM project.
A zkVM is a set of zero-knowledge tooling which allows developers to write
arbitrary programs that generate zk proofs. So you can take a Rust program,
and then you can generate a proof that the Rust program executed correctly.
So this is what forms the second part of Cowboy, which is the part that allows
developers to create programs about the web data and to generate zk proofs about the data.
For somebody to be able to create false proofs in Cowboy, one of these protocols would need to have
what's known in the zero-knowledge crypto parlance as a soundness bug,
where soundness is the ability for a protocol, a zk proving system, to only accept proofs
and verify them as valid. If the conditions in the zero knowledge circuit
were were correctly were correctly fulfilled, and the proof generated. So
since since Cowboy leans heavily on existing and well vetted zero knowledge tooling,
the answer to this question would lie in the underlying zero knowledge tooling.
Okay, if I understand you correctly. I guess you, um,
you are trying to say that, um, the cowboy is, uh, very secured and it cannot be manipulated.
In a way, yeah. So cowboy rests on the shoulders of very well-known, uh, zero knowledge projects,
um. So one is risk zero, like I mentioned. It's undergoing formal verification right now
for its Rust zero knowledge circuits, and it's used by many rollups in the Ethereum ecosystem.
And TOS Notary similarly is a is a project that's basically sponsored by Privacy
and Scaling Explorations, which is a big part of the Ethereum Foundation.
So these are very serious projects, and they're they're you know they're built
and architected by cryptographers, along with cryptographic engineers and systems
and and compiler engineers who are very good at what they do. So it would it would take a I'll say
that I'll say this TLS Notary is still young. I don't think it's been audited yet.
So I I think I would probably carry that caveat with any cowboy software until TLS Notary
is is well audited. So, so that one, I'd say that component is still kind of a TBD
under Cowboy's stack.
But I'm very confident that they'll get there at some point. It's it's a very serious project.
Okay. We should we should we should we should share these we should share the the the links
to these projects also in the chat so people can check them out. Yeah,
I'll just—I don't know—I'll just post them
in in links under this chat. I'm not sure how to attach them to the to the call itself.
Um, I didn't get the part of you said you want you want to um send somebody to the comment section.
Yeah, yeah. So I I just referenced two projects which Cowboy leans heavily on. So
since they might not be familiar to the audience, I just suggested I just post them to this
to the comment section of this call. Oh my god, I'm working. Shit. Yeah. Well,
I I commented them
there. Um, I don't know if anybody wants to pin them, but feel free to check check those out.
Okay. Um, please can you hear me? Cause I'm logging. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now.
I'm not sure if it cut off. Okay. Okay. Um. Um, I can see Salotan up. Sir, you can have the mic,
sir. Excellent. Hello, everyone. First of all, good morning, good afternoon, good evening,
wherever you are, wherever you might be. I have a question for you. I hopped in a little bit late,
proof partner. I'm glad to see you up here doing a little bit of education on your project
and what you're building. I don't know if I missed it, but I have two questions for you. Number one,
what's the well, not number one, but proof partner, what is your foreseeable implementation as far
as the cowboy? Protocol, like what are you? What's the first sector you're aiming it for?
The proofs is it going to be around DeFi or is it strictly right now for um uh what's it called
the um digital identity and everything? Where where are you aiming it at first?
Like your main focus? Uh, so you're you're asking um like with some with some zkTLS integrations,
like where would I build? Uh, like which vertical would I kind of build around?
That did I get you correctly? Exactly. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I can answer this. Unfortunately,
it's going to be even more general than that. So I'm building Cowboy
as a general developer platform. In this case, meaning that developers can come to Cowboy,
and they can program their own logic, including any URLs for any any website, any web server or API
that they'd like to target, and also the logic that they'd like to invoke against the web data
from that server. So it's kind of like a smart contract layer, but it's no, it's not,
it's not as expressive or stateful. So it can't really be compared to like other privacy protocols.
Instead, it focuses just on the web data, and then kind of massaging the data from that that source
of data, and then outputting a proof of that data. So when I say it's general,
it means that developers can come and they can write integrations with any.
A source that they're interested in, and those can be across even the verticals you mentioned. Like,
there's plenty of DeFi ones use cases. I think there are. That's actually a really good one
to start thinking about. Use cases around identity is also a really exciting area. I think. So,
I to start this project out as as you should with any any opportunity you give developers the chance
to build on the platform. I'm starting with some examples of how people can build on top.
The two that I'm beginning with are a TikTok example. This is this is kind of
like a follower count proof, which ties into like identity or like proofs about work
or or kind of influencer level. So it's like a privacy-preserving proof of
where you sit at sit as an influencer. And then the other one is like a TikTok user ownership proof,
where it just It proves you own a TikTok username, and then it just outputs a unique credential
that's mapped to that name. So that one's not necessarily as useful, but it's it's the simplest
to run, and it's probably the simplest for developers to see each useful portion
of Cowboy's integration layer they can build on top of. That is using and manipulating the data
from the web, outputting outputting any specific data you want on chain,
and the other one is using someone else's proof inside your proof. Which you could also call
a composition. So I said a lot. Sorry, we can unpack that, or let me know.
Let me know what you think. Well, actually, actually, that that raised another question
because I heard you say earlier, as soon as I hopped on, about partners using their node system
in order to deliver the information. Now. Are you planning for your particular platform to build out
a node system or a node network in conjunction with whatever blockchain
that you're pulling information from? Like say EVM networks, they have their own nodes. You know,
Cardano, we have our own SPOs and node system. Then you have the projects here on Cardano
like Iagon. They deal with all the storage where you could pull a lot of that information from.
Do you plan on building out your own, or just have the developers who build out utilize
whatever resources they have, and you're just providing the platform itself? Yeah,
so I'm absolutely planning on building out my own, though building on the shoulders of the giants
of the partner chains team. So Cowboy would be implemented as a partner chain.
This is for a number of reasons, mainly the extensibility of the platform, which allows bringing in.
More exotic verifiers, so I would be able to verify proofs that I generate
either from the zk layer of my platform, or even just a pure a pure TLS notary proof. So basically,
I could make it more flexible to different different types of proofs that I might use in
my protocol. This was exciting to me as a developer of this this sort of platform,
and this is something you can't get in Cardano smart contracts natively. So it just made sense.
The other piece was decentralization. Since partner partner chains allows you to use
different consensus protocols, I could use, for example, Babe, which is a proof of stake protocol
you can use in Substrate. This would be very enticing to use. It's absolutely critical
that a zkTLS protocol is decentralized. So I would want I would want the the network that
I'm using to be decentralized, or else you know it could essentially break.
So that's that's another that's another reason I'm I'm interested in using what's already available
in partner chains. Hey man, that's a really perfect fit. I agree. I like what I hear, though. Now,
oracles, oracles. Have you thought about which oracles you want to work with,
or it's like open door, whoever you can get the information from. It's like you just scrape
whatever verifiable info you can get. I think it's more like the latter. So. Yeah,
zkTOS has more of a vampire attack vibe, taking data out of data silos such as social media or banks
or whichever else, because nobody can. These institutions can't know when you're using zkTOS.
At least the decentralized variant that I'm interested in. Some other centralized variants,
they I think they can, and that's not a good thing. But it's a good thing for this case
because you can get access to more data. Nobody can really stop you, and there's a lot
of good middle ground where kind of data silo rent seekers like Facebook, TikTok, etc. Earn
more revenue where more decentralized parties could if the if the data were disintermediated.
So it makes sense they wouldn't want to let go of all that data. So yeah, no, no,
no oracles that exist now. ZK TLS kind of it can be an oracle. It extends that functionality to also
private data. Like I mentioned, the bank account example is a great one to get your wrap your mind
around that. You can take your bank balance, prove something about it,
and then output a privacy preserving proof that somebody else can refer to. So yeah,
that's kind of like a good intuition around the headspace of ZK TLS. Okay, man,
that's that's very impressive sounding. Now, I'm sure you've heard of Midnight already.
That's the blockchain or the partner chain of Cardano that Charles Hoskinson decided
he wanted to build in order to create that privacy layer that can be utilized.
I think something like this sounds like it would be very, very beneficial. You know,
as far as on the private side of information. Also, have you thought about applying for
Catalyst funding? Because that could also be unless you already have private funding set aside
to build out with. Have you ever thought about doing the Catalyst proposal? I haven't,
but I haven't looked into it enough yet. I'm I'm making pretty good progress here,
just functioning as a a software project that I'm I'm personally interested in. Um,
and I um I'm worried about I'm a little bit hesitant about sending the wrong message
if I try to get funding for this now. Um, so I'm kind I want to do something like reserve it
for like when I really need it to try to get some funding. Um, I think it would happen at some point
because, by default, this thing at least at the very least would need audits.
Which will be very expensive, and I'm, you know, the software is very complex. So
if people are interested in it, and I'm able to validate that people are interested in it,
then I would probably try to, you know, one day hire more developers and make it a,
a real project on Cardano that would launch and like allow other projects to use its its proofs
and its data. So that's that's probably those are like probably the two things
I would validate first before really really considering it. Otherwise,
I'm you know I'm just kind of coding away and making a great deal of progress.
And and it seems like you are from the explanations you've been giving us so far.
I can say this with confidence. I know many projects that have utilized the catalyst fund
not only to help build out their project and bring on more developers,
but they also utilize them specifically for audits. Like that is a thing.
I think Indigo the the synthetic assets. Platform here on Cardano did that a long time ago
when they first started up. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go out on a limb here,
and I'm gonna say I think Cardano over Coffee would be a good place for you to hop on
and explain your project and to go into detail on these things because they have a few members,
actually, damn near all the members are. Are deep in the Catalyst, you know, throughout time.
I've also been part of Catalyst. Number one here has also been a reviewer for Catalyst,
so that the whole community has been exposed to all the different projects as they've come, gone,
pulled funding to build out their projects and stuff. So this. This sounds like something that
you could go and just present to the community on Cardano over Coffee.
You can just go on their X profile and it'll show you the little Calend Calendly link,
and you can just set up your own appointment when you want to go on there and talk about it.
Because I find value in everything you said so far, and I believe when you first showed up,
I told you that it's like zk rollups have been a thing that have been spoken about a long time.
Here we have Sebastian Guillamot. He created Pima Studios, a gaming studio,
and everything here on Cardano. He's been in the ecosystem for years, and he's been building out.
Right now, he's building out what's called Starstream, and it's an advanced zk rollup.
It's been so long since I read it. Oh, you've you've heard of that? Yeah, yeah.
I've popped in this Discord. I've asked about it too. I think it's uh, it's either,
as I understand it, zkVM, which I mentioned I'm using, a popular zkVM earlier,
or it's like a system to turn existing zkVMs into These UTXO accepting zkVMs that can be kind of
like a rollup into Cardano, and I, it's so it's a bit different in that way.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, but I'm I'm I'm in their Discord
and I'm starting to ask questions about that one. I think it's a really interesting project. Yeah,
it is. Can I mention about Midnight? You you brought up Midnight and I actually didn't address that.
Oh, please go ahead. Go ahead. I'm all ears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am I am aware Midnight. Of course,
it's it's too hard to ignore at this point given its size. Midnight kind of occupies
a different space where it has smart contracts and like on-chain tokens plus privacy.
Where I have not put it, I'm not really interested now to putting like smart contracts
or private on-chain tokens on Cowboy. I'm more just interested in like privacy around web data
and like verifiably bringing web data to this chain. I think it would it would bundle very well
with another chain like. Midnight or even Cardano, because then you have like privacy
and and then you can kind of build other logic, build logic that works with other contracts
and tokens plus the web data, which like I'm not I'm not doing, or even you know chains
like Cardano. So I'm still thinking about that. I'm thinking about like what's the best way to
whether I should bring smart contracts on Cowboy. I'm I'm like leaning no,
or like should I focus on like bridging to other chains like Midnight if they're interested in
in it. Yeah, that reminds me of one thing. I'll have to mention about like the issues
of decentralized TLS, zkTLS versus centralized TLS. Yeah, yeah. Can you go into detail on that?
Can you go into detail with that? Because decentralization has always been, you know,
that's that's the blockchain ethos. The more decentralized, the better, right?
Can you go into detail about your your thoughts about that? Yeah, I wanted to put a footnote in it
because I I wanted to check in with Iomi really quick. She still has probably like thirty questions,
and then I can kind of give my rant on like the issues of. The centralized zkTLS projects
and and decentralized variants. I mean, did you did you catch that? Are you are you back yet? Yeah,
I guess I did. You said you want to talk about decentralize something, right? Yeah,
I was I was I was saying I might if you if you hadn't recovered your mic yet.
But I figured if you're back now, maybe we should hand the mic back over to you,
give you the chance to finish any questions you have, and then maybe we can. Jump back. Actually,
I can't remember if we handed off the mic already. Are we in open questions right now? Okay. Um,
Sir Lord, are you done with your questions, Sir? Oh yeah, yeah. I'm done now. I'm just taking notes.
I'm learning a lot now, man. Oh, okay. Thank you for the engagement. I really appreciate that. Um,
I'll have to I'll have to listen to this space again because I was logging
and I did not really follow up the conversations. Okay. Um, I have um just two more questions
for you. Just two more questions for you. Can I can I suggest then after after the two questions
can we go over the um the the centralized zkTLS versus decentralized and then um yeah then I think
that'll round off the then maybe any other questions but maybe we're done. Okay,
I guess we should go first then. Okay, yeah, sounds good. Um, yeah, so um, uh,
so with zkTLS protocols, there's slightly different dimensions you should consider
when you're looking at solutions that might build on chain. Like one of the dimensions is
whether the system uses proxy TLS or MPC TLS. There are projects who have gained a lot of adoption,
like many custom integrations, many partners, and they might depend on proxy TLS, which,
when you compare it to the MPC TLS, which is what we're using at Cowboy.
What it does basically is it runs a residential proxy somewhere, and that proxy listens to
the encrypted web traffic. So it's encrypted; it can't see it, but it signs off on that data,
basically saying, "Yep, this data is good," and now everybody can verify the signature. That's fine.
So this is, in my view, and in the view of other people who are smarter than myself,
people who build the the primitives for zkTLS, proxy TLS is just about strictly more centralized.
And most importantly, stoppable. And a big component of that is these residential proxies,
which give more, which produce more traffic to web servers that they're trying to target.
And somebody is able to point at those residential proxies and stop them,
or at least identify their IPs and block them. And you know, they you have to you have to spin them
up through these these companies which run which run each residential proxy. So that's yeah,
that's quite a bit different than. Then we have when we're doing things like running nodes
and we're running them on bare metal, or like if you're a small cloud company.
So that's that's one thing. That's that's kind of the the the downsides of proxy TLS versus MPC TLS.
MPC TLS is what we're using at Cowboy. TLS Notary is a project I mentioned before,
which builds the MPC TLS primitive, and this is the part that basically says.
Your browser can communicate with any trusted notary server to do to perform the joint TLS session
with the web server. With that under with that trust assumption, you trust the notary.
But with Cowboy, we're saying each notary is a an SPO or a node operator of the partner chain.
So we're trying to sufficiently decentralize the notary set in in that manner by using the consensus
and the distribution of the underlying chain. So that's that's kind of the the trouble
with the MPC TLS protocols, but I think by design they can be more decentralized.
The issue with the other thing is that any of these networks usually rely, regardless of proxy TLS
or MPC TLS, they rely on a network of nodes that the protocol is running,
or you know maybe they launch a just distributed or decentralized network.
And it's important to check those. Like, there, I think I'm aware of existing projects
in the system, in the ecosystem, and they they really just run known nodes that are run by the team.
Like, it's just a list of them. It's not like a network with consensus.
It's just like it's basically like a multisig. So that's obviously an issue.
I I assume by default that folks in the Cardano ecosystem are more for decentralization,
and it was one of the reasons I was interested in in building a system
that was decentralization first. The other, the other, the last thing I'll say on this,
and then I can I can shut my mouth, is that another reason this is so important for zkTLS protocols,
specifically the type that Cowboy is is building, is that the data that's in your TLS session,
by design, is hard to introspect and prove about, and so even in Cowboy's case. You as the browser,
you're randomly assigned to whichever notary of the set in order to jointly sign off
on your TLS data, right? There's still a a potential risk of collusion between the the person
who's proving and the person who's signing because of this inability to introspect the data.
There's the ways to alleviate this issue are one sufficient decentralization,
which you should have anyways. If it's less likely that you're working with a notary
at any given point in time, you're less likely to fake to falsify the data.
Another one is using zero knowledge proofs. In Cowboy's case, we're proving the we're proving
The notary signature. We're proving the the TLS signature, and given a valid custom integration that
developer a developer writes, we're proving the contents of the TLS session.
And if we're proving the contents, then that's the final piece that could be falsified.
So we have a few strong checks in our case that should fight against this this.
This potential flaw in the in any protocol that types tries to build around it. But when I say flaw,
it really comes down to TLS, like one of the web protocols that runs the web.
It's just hard to tap into the data that's inside any session. So yeah, sorry for the rant.
I can let me know if I can unpack any of that. But that's like my well,
I do have I do have one question because you said you have checks in place that can take care
of that without giving away any like you know coding secrets or anything.
Can you go in a little detail on your checks and how those are verified? Sure thing. So the first,
so I, you can break them down into three steps essentially. So one is the let me let me remind of
the context. So one remember the notary is a party in this type of protocol who's signing off
on the data inside of your TLS session, and they're the ones who are joining with your browser
in creating a in creating a key for the TLS session. So that produces a signature over the parts
of the data within the proof. The proof that the TLS notary portion takes. So with that signature,
that's the first. We take that signature. That's the first thing we care about.
That's verified inside of a zero knowledge proof. The second piece is a signature that's that's part
of the TLS protocol. So it's it's the signature inside of the certificate for the For the
for the the domain, so that's the part that ensures that the data came from the correct place,
and then the final check is we we can kind of we can kind of group it into two more.
So there's like a final check, which is given a good a valid integration that a developer has built,
they need to introspect the data inside of the the session and. We we want somebody to do that
because that's the only piece that's not verified yet, and that's the core of the problem.
Is that the data inside of that that data that was encrypted for TLS might be different?
That's like the collusion issue. So, given an integration that checks any data inside
of the session, then we have a strong check against the collusion. One more thing that
the custom integrations do is that they verify. All of the TLS session data that came from
the first two checks on the TLS session. So that and that's that's just a check to be sure
that a custom integration that somebody's developing matches exactly with the same data
in the TLS session that was proven. Kind of like redundancy back checks, right? In a way, yeah.
The way I've built it now, I've kind of I've separated this process of proving your web data
into two zk proofs. The first one runs the same for everybody's integration,
every developer's integration. This part proves your TLS session, and it does the first two checks
that I mentioned to you. So it just outputs a proof that says that we we have
a valid TLS notary proof here, and we've done these extra checks on top of that valid proof.
The custom integration that any developer writes actually takes that existing proof as input,
and it verifies that proof, and it it accepts a hash of the same data as well,
and it it it takes the same TLS data, sorry, and it hashes it to be sure that it matches with a hash
that the first proof has output. So the first proof has a public output of the hash
of the TLS TLS data. The second proof hash is the same data, matches it to that hash,
and that's kind of the hash that ensures that it matches up, and it's not just fake data.
So it yeah, it's mainly it's it's the three main checks that I mentioned.
The last one that you called redundancy, I think that's a good way to describe it.
It just matches up the data across the two proofs. Man, that is a lot of information.
Thank you for the education on that proof, partner. Without a shadow of a doubt,
I'm going to keep my eyes on you as you grow here in this ecosystem, man. Like we need more
and more viable, valuable projects, and I see value in what you're building here, man.
I wish you the best of luck, and I'll keep my eyes open, man. I'm rooting for you.
I appreciate that. Yeah, thanks so much, Lord. I appreciate the good questions too. Some, you know,
it's the first. I think this is the first time I'm talking about it in depth, so I haven't.
I haven't figured out all my my good points yet, so it's really good practice for me. Appreciate it.
Okay, thank you, Prof. Now for all of the information so far, one of the one of the one
of the things that I do not really like about myself right now is that I'm not really gifted
in the technical aspect. So most of the things that you said, they're just like.
I don't know because I'm not really into the technical parts, but some extent,
I understand what the project is all about to some extent, aside from the technical part, you know,
when we were mentioning some terms and all of that. Okay. Um. Well. Yeah. Look,
that's that's you know that's my issue. Is like, I I want to I want to get it to the point, uh,
to get this project to the point where it's very clear without being technical.
That includes all the components to run it. Like everything kind of runs in a in a UI that
you can kind of watch as an outsider, and like developers kind of deliver the portions that give
the custom functionality, and you can just kind of click through things.
So I think part of it is kind of like a terms and wording challenge that I'm I'm still working
towards. I don't know. Maybe we can come back after I work on it a bit,
and I'll have like a a succinct way to talk about it. So yeah, TBD. Yeah, no problem about that.
Everybody is still working progress, right? So it's all right. I still, Mister Las Vegas. Hello,
sir. I know you don't have this. I'm not. I'm. I know you don't. I mean,
you're not familiar with this account. My other account got suspended, and I, I, I guess I tried.
I could not DM you. I tried to send you a DM that oh, I have another account now. But you're here.
Thanks for joining the space. Okay. Um. The last two questions I have for full partner,
I just basically, I would like to, I just like to know about. It's more like final thoughts
or about the vision for Cowboy. And the two questions I want to ask are:
Where do you see Cowboy Protocol in the next two to three years? And also, someone like me.
Or any other listener here, or builders in this space, how can we get involved with your project
or contribute, or I don't know, something like that? Yes, those are the two questions I have for
you. Thank you. Sure thing. So, the next two to three years for Cowboy, I think. Well, one,
I should, I would want to validate this idea. A bit more comprehensively,
find out whether people like it, which parts people are interested in, and as a result,
build more towards those features that people are interested in. So that's kind of like maybe seeing
more more feedback implemented. It should be running as a partner chain, e.g.,
it's meaning it's fully registered on Cardano, which it's not right now.
It runs as like a custom solo dev node. I would hope it has like thousands of custom integrations,
so like all your common websites, TikTok, Facebook, Gmail, Google Maps, Upwork are covered.
All like identity websites, like Social Security in the states, covered,
and identity websites for other countries are covered. And also many integrations that depend on
one another. So I meant I kind of hinted to the fact that integrate programs
for integrations can be composed, since. The zk proving I'm using underneath offers composability,
so we could see things like people building credit score programs by taking
somebody's identity program, taking like their bank account program for proving
your bank account threshold, take your paycheck program which proves you have paychecks
sufficiently delivered every month, and then it just all it does is like verifies each of those
in a single proof to get a rich background on your web data without revealing anything that's there.
So kind of these strong composable programs are developed. And then the last piece is probably
real integrations with other chains or protocols. So this this question about
whether how Cowboy's proofs will kind of be tapped into by other on-chain worlds. What so
whether Cowboy will bridge its proofs to another chain that has contracts. Like midnight or Cardano,
or whether part, whether Cowboy will launch its own smart contracts layer, or what,
like what is that question of like how it connects to everything else will kind of be answered,
and that portion should probably be completed. So if it's like a bridge, then
that that should be implemented by that time. If it's its own execution layer,
then whichever VM is interesting is implemented on Cowboy. Those, those are probably
my main two to three things for. For following along and engaging with Cowboy,
I would recommend following my account and the Cowboy account because I'm opening up the DevNet,
the first DevNet for Cowboy to everyone. I'm planning on doing this in a few days to next week,
and I'll be announcing that on the Cowboy Twitter. I'm going to tweet out the Docs website,
and the Docs has all the links, has the context for what Cowboy is doing. How it works,
whatever the components you need, and how you generate proofs and send them to the DevNet.
It also includes all the example applications, so the program to prove your TikTok,
your TikTok follower account privately, the program to prove your X account privately,
those are included. So I can. The idea there is to help developers get a sense on
how you build programs for Cowboy, and that's that's the main call to action there.
If if developers are interested in building on that point,
it's it's totally possible. All they need to do is join the DevNet and start writing Rust code.
Awesome, awesome. That's great. I see you, Jinny. Thanks for joining. Hmm. Okay. Okay.
That's good that you'll be creating an X account for the Cowboy Protocol. That's awesome.
And so for now, just the X account, right? Yeah, I'll post it here in the comments on this on space.
Not sure how to print it. How to pin it? Sorry. Um. Yeah, yeah, that's the one. Okay. Um.
So I I have that that account there posted. Just follow along there, and then I'll I'll be posting
an update in the coming days. Um. That explains everything. How to interact with Cowboy
as it exists right now. All right, that's awesome. Um. Oh, Longman. Hey, Longman.
Thanks for joining. Um. Wait, I asked a question earlier. I don't know if you answered
that question. I said, "Why cowboy? I mean, why the name cowboy? Why not rat boy or cockroach boy?
" Just kidding. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm sorry. I thought I thought you were asking. I I miss.
I probably misunderstood the question. I thought we were talking about kind of like a background
to the protocol. Yeah. Well, cowboy. The name is is a TBD. I. It's like a. It's like a code name,
and I just wanted to get a name chosen quickly so I could just move on,
not get tied up on on naming. It's a bad developer problem, and I I I run into that problem
sometimes when I'm trying to build things. So I I just quickly chose Cowboy as a placeholder name
until I come up with something that will solidify and make more sense as people start to use it.
I think Cardano has a lot of Western vibes. So cowboy, you know, kind of fits as something
that's like a western motif, and also like ideas around like lassoing data or wrangling data,
because that's what cowboy will be doing. It'll be gathering up your data and herding it around. So,
and it's just kind of fun. Like I, you know, after I put those two together, I was like,
I don't want to create like a serious sounding name. I'd rather have something that sounds
kind of funny and light-hearted. Okay, all right. Thanks for that. Do we have any final words
from you, pro partner, sir Lord, or any other person before we round off the space? And nothing.
Well, thank you for giving me the time to chat about chat a bit about cowboy.
It was it was really nice chatting once again. It's about the time. Sorry, Lord.
I think I I cut you off there. Oh no, it's alright, man. I'm I'm good with that. But um,
my final words are gonna be this. You're new to the ecosystem, and you seem to have the vision.
Don't stop spreading the word. Keep educating as many people as you can about what
you're building here, man. That's how you spark more interest. And as far as knowing your points
to point out, every single one of them, from my point of view, seemed well. I'm not a developer,
but I do understand the language for the most part. You are on a journey.
That will lead you to some good places. You just have to keep on pushing. Spread the word, cowboy.
When you named it cowboy, you pretty much picked the right code name to start with
because this still is the Wild West. Blockchain technology itself is still growing every single day,
changing. They're trying to come up with laws for it because they say you know money laundering this
and information is wrong that and scams and all of that stuff. Rug pulls, right? So at
the end of the day, you're still doing it. You're still fighting the good fight.
And you're like you said, you're wrangling in that information. Hey, now you need to wrangle in
some believers, some developers, and let's get this show on the road, man. Thank you for building.
Thank you for choosing Cardano, and thank you for the education. Thank you, Lord. Well said.
I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you for building. Thank you for educating us.
Thank you for choosing Cardano. Yeah. Okay. I want to use this medium to appreciate Cowboy.
Proof partner J. You said your name is J, right? Yeah, yeah, you can call me that. Okay, okay.
So I want to use this medium to appreciate J for showing up, for telling us what he's building.
It's a beautiful project, and I want to say a big thank you to everybody that joins the space,
that joined the space, and um. I appreciate a lot for the engagement with Jay for asking
the questions and for all of all of that. Thank you so much, and I want to say thank you
to Ginny Longman, Nestle Las Vegas, Lordite for tuning in. Thank you so much.
I really appreciate your presence. Yeah, like I said earlier, my other account got suspended,
and this is my new account, and yeah, still building it, still building my new account. So.
A suspended account would not would not stop our our X space from holding right.
So the X space continues, and we are having another one on Thursday, same time,
nine thirty p.m. UTC. Okay. Um, I want to say, stay good, stay blessed, stay uh kadano, focus, stay.
I don't know what to say. Okay. Okay, proof partner, you can have the mic. Yeah. Yeah, I do.
I do have one one final word now that I now now that I thought about it.
Watch out for centralized zkTLS projects in the ecosystem. That's all I'll say.
Centralization hits zkTLS harder. It can make data it can make data falsifiable.
I thought Cardano ecosystem liked decentralization, so I just assumed that folks would like
a decentralized protocol building on top of it rather than the centralized one.
So uphold those values if that's if that's one that you you appreciate.
Yep. Okay, so we are um looking forward to that. Thank you, Jay. Um, so now we've got it at the end
of the space for today. I'm so cold. I'm outside because of network connection. I had to go outside.
Okay. Um, thank you guys for joining. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much,
and do have a beautiful week ahead. Thank you so much for joining. Bye. Bye. Yeah.
