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Cardano Over Coffee ☕️ | @Jennycitalinda going away party 🥳
Recorded: July 15, 2026 Duration: 3:37:54Space Recording
Full Transcription
Good morning. Good morning. How's it going today? It's Wednesday, July fifteenth. Right in
the middle of July. I can't believe it's already the middle of July, but it is. Good morning, Chad.
How are you doing today? GMGM, Ginny. How are you doing this morning? I'm doing great.
I just made my coffee. Got my cat here, meowing like crazy. I don't know what he wants, but yeah.
How's the weather? The weather? Oh, the weather is hot. It's nice and sunny. Yeah, it's been hot,
but not as hot as it was a week ago. So that's good. What about you guys? Did you get a hibou
or anything like lately? No, actually, the weather's been beautiful the last three days. Yesterday,
it really got up to like 84, maybe. This morning, I wake up. It's cloudy. There's a nice,
cool breeze rolling through. I don't know what's going on. Hey, don't complain. Enjoy it. Take it.
It's a, it's a blessing. It's a blessing. So, and Spain, how about that? I've been telling you,
motherfuckers, that Spain is gonna make it to the final. Actually, I've been saying
they're gonna win, but. There are a lot of scepticals.
How about that? How about the apples? I didn't watch it yesterday. Yeah.
You sound very upset about it. I was really going for Norway. So you got to pick a team after.
That's just how it works. Your team's gone. You pick a new team until the end. I know.
I'm going for Argentina now. Okay. Today, Argentina England, right? So you're gonna watch it? Yeah,
I am. All right. Well, I hope you do. Let's retweet the room, guys. There's not gonna be any guests
today. It's just gonna be us bantering. This is my last week here for our coffee,
so I'm throwing myself a own going away party. So come join me. Come up here, talk to me.
Love to hear you. Might be my last time as the coffee cup. Maybe I'll be like. Helping here
and there with some hosting needs in the meantime, if some situation arises.
But it's officially my last day, so I'm excited, also a little sad. But yeah, come join me.
Come join us. Tell us everything that's happening in your end. I see. Be in the room, KB. KB,
you came up here. St. Jude in the room as well. What's up, everybody? Hi, KB. How's the baby? Hey,
what's up, guys? She's great. She's wonderful. I can't. Yeah. Life as a dad. How is life as a dad?
Nothing can prepare you for that, huh? You can imagine as much as you might. She, she, she tried,
but it's just uh definitely something else. Yeah, it's awesome. I mean,
I got I cut off all my hair yesterday. I grew it for like three years, and I walked in and.
The babysitter was like, "Oh, now you really look just like your dad," because I am a spitting image
of my father. It was very funny. So, what has been the biggest change in your life
that you were not expecting prior to having a child? Um, I don't know.
I couldn't say that I have a specific change. Just like being on all the time, like I can't.
I guess that's expected, but I don't know. They grow real fast. Did you imagine
you can love that much? I I never imagine I can love. It's kind of like a new kind of love
that grows once your baby is born that you don't know exists. Probably, yeah.
That would be for me the one that I was just not expecting, for sure. Yeah, I mean, like we were out
a couple weeks ago with some friends and like. I don't know. Some drunk dude was being really weird
and creepy to like a friend's daughter, and it was like dad mode was activated.
Like he had broke his foot earlier that day, and so I like jumped in. I was like,
"Get the fuck away from her!" And then, yeah, it was all good. But dad mode is that. Dad mode.
I love it. It's the best. Yeah. Oh, and you think it's scary now. Wait
until they start getting older. Wait until they start going out, and you don't take them to places,
and you just have to hope they make it home. That is the hardest part. Yeah, yeah, I know.
I I've got some time for that, but you know, I think the you think you do, but it does go by fast.
So really enjoy every stage. It's so fast. She's six months now. She's rolling. She's crawling.
She's eating food. She's doing it all. You gotta take her to a concert anytime soon? Not yet. Um,
I mean, she's been to a few. My wife's a singer, so she's been to a few of her her gigs in
like the cover band she's in. Um. So that's awesome. Yeah, that's great.
My wife sings all the time at home. I've played her plenty of King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard.
That was the first music she ever heard. She loved. Did you end up finding baby clothes
for us merch, or maybe somebody that makes them, fans or something? There is there is baby merch.
There's bibs. There's onesies. You got send me a picture, please. No, I don't have it,
but he will make it. It's all in the stage. Okay. Yeah. When you when oh, it's on the stage. Okay.
Okay. You got to post a picture of yourself with no hair. I can't picture that, my dude.
I still got hair. It's just a. It's just like your standard dad cut, you know,
where it starts to go straight back and it's short on the sides. Yeah, standard dad cut.
Aye aye aye. Well, guys, I as times are changing. I did post something at the top related to
Cardano. Ah, this is Marek post from Black Frost. So they made a little announcement.
They do have a proposal for Black Frost on chain right now, and I just wanted to share a little bit
of the love. Ah, basically because if this proposal doesn't get funded, you know, Lora
as we know it, it probably will not exist as we could. Maybe the doctor on her own,
but they went ahead and made a post about it just in case if it wasn't clear.
And I can understand why, you know, it is what it is. I mean, he maintained
that for as long as he could, and then he ended up getting help from from IL to keep it going
and take it to the next stage. And now they're trying to take it to the community,
give it to the community, and that will be the last stage of Blood Frost,
and definitely realizing what Marie wanted this whole time, but. Yeah, if you have it in you,
take a little read, share it, and yeah, share the love. Not telling you to vote one way or another,
but you know I have definitely seen how much he is put into this ecosystem
and how much he wanted this to happen eventually. And yeah, it's so close to getting there.
And sometimes you know we just forget we forget the the history, the things that people do
to make things what they are today. And I just don't want. This would be one of those situations
that we take something for granted, as we have done in the past, and then look back and say,
"Oh man, we didn't realize this was going to happen." And yeah, so take it,
take a little bit of your time to read it. And if you have any questions,
I do see B here in the room. She can help you, or reach out to Murray himself,
and they'll be more than happy to answer your questions. I think the proposal is live until
the 28th of July. So yeah, don't sleep on it. Don't sleep on it. It is a reminder.
This is last week, so I want to hear from you. Come up here, say hello, if you can, if you want to.
I want to hear your beautiful voices. I will be here until Friday. We do have. Oh,
I'm going to pin that at the top as well. We have an awesome guest coming up on Friday,
and if you can do me a favor, I pinned up at the top the post for Friday's guest, which is Real Fi,
and I'm super excited. And Marina is going to be hosting, and I'll be here to help her out.
I invited them to come talk about what is cooking in their kitchen. If you have been around from
the early days of Cardano, Charles used to do this thing called Kiva, and where he used to fund,
do like micro loans to independent people around the world. And it was really fun. It was inspiring.
And he used to talk about like how he wanted to bring this to Cardano. It's been a long time.
And every time I I I run into Charles, I'll ask him in person, "It's like, hey, when Kiva,
when Cardano Kiva?" And he would tell me like, "Real Fy is coming." And it's been years since this.
Okay, so Real Fy is here, and it's supposed to be a solution for that kind of stuff and much more.
So I am super stoked to have him in Cardano over coffee as. So we can ask some questions
and see how that could actually help realize something like that. So we'll see.
Please share the share the space. I pinned that up at the top. I'll gladly, you know,
give you a hug if I could, but you'll have to take my virtual hugs from here.
I just want to make sure that we get a lot of people here on Friday. So let's celebrate, all.
GM GM Jenny Jenny, I got a few minutes before I'm gonna have to get driving,
but I just thought you know I could speak for a little bit since it's a special,
it's a community day, anyways. But I was gonna ask you guys for your help because you know
I'm feeling kind of selfish today. So for one of the things I'm working on getting out
to the market, I have decided yes, let's do NFTs with it with the product.
But one of my friends said that stuff.io Was the best thing for it because I'll just explain
what it is. I I released it, but I think on the wrong marketplace at first,
and it's just AI prompt packs, right? You can buy those now on sites like Prompt Base or WAP,
and you can even pay with crypto. But I just thought we have this wonderful technology, right?
You know, and if you would buy the buy it and then not resell it, but you can do that with an NFT,
why wouldn't you do it? But not all blockchains have features to lock. The PDF's up,
and one of my friends told me that stuff.io on Cardano was good because essentially people can see
the cover, and then when you own the NFT, that's kind of like the key to be able to, you know,
see the whole PDF. Whereas on a regular standard site like WAP, you know,
it's just the password gets you into being able to see them. But like, if anybody had any thoughts,
I'm asking for your help because he was my friend was pretty passionate about stuff.io. I mean,
stuff that I own is cool because it does have that, right? Like, if in Cardano you can just mint
a PDF, super cheap, but anybody can access it without owning it, right?
So it depends on what you want. If you want to kind of like gatekeep it,
whether you have to purchase a PDF, that will definitely, you know, be the probably the better way
to do it. If you want it to just be kind of public publishing, you can just mint it on Cardano
as a regular token, and it's super cheap and easy to do. So, what exactly are you trying to do?
I don't know. It's it's on stuff.io, okay. Um, I mean that's what I was told stuff.io, but like I'm,
I don't want to make these AI prompt packs so that everyone can see them, right? Like
because when I sell them, I'm like token gated, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm,
forgive me if I was not clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm sorry. I just probably I missed it. So um,
yeah, stuff.io is is definitely a good choice. And what's cool about it,
it's just it's very normy friendly, so anybody can buy it. You can buy it with you know fiat.
You can buy it with different types of uh. Crypto and it feels kind of like like a regular app store
that a lot of people don't even realize that they are using crypto because they don't have to do
the whole crypto thing, right? Like it's like a self custody kind of thing. Then,
then you can transfer it to your own wallet if that's what you want to do. So it's like hybrid.
And the interface is very, very easy to use, so they probably want to go with something like that.
I highly recommend them. I they're they're friends, and they're also really good at what they do.
So, yeah, check them out for sure. Well, thank you. I just felt like I couldn't do it
without the blessing of dear Jenny here, because like hearing it from one person is one thing,
but I'm going to be honest with you guys. I don't remember where it was,
but it was a general thing where you meant all Cardano things. Like I spent hours
and hours talking to my AI and trying to get it to work, and I could not get it to work,
and I was almost in tears over it. And I was just like, okay, instead of like,
as as much as I love AI, I like to like when I'm gonna do something that you know
could potentially you know take hours to to figure out and and make me like anxious and irritated
and annoyed. I was like, you know, I should probably get one more person's opinion,
and that person needs to be Jenny because Jenny has the reputation for knowing everything
for what's up in the beautiful Candyland of Cardano. Okay, I gotta stop commercial now. Sorry,
I just had coffee. I don't know everything. Let me tell you something.
I don't because I don't do a lot of DeFi stuff. You can actually ask B more about DeFi
than you can ask me. She's more of a Deejun than me, but I do know some things,
and that is one thing I know. I for publishing, that is definitely a good place, and especially
since now they have like the self-publishing stuff, so makes it easier. For a long time they didn't,
so they're kind of like gatekeeping it a little bit, picking and choosing what to publish,
but then it kind of got easier and easier, and here we are today. So it's like definitely give them
check it out. And if you need any help, let me know. You know, I I know them well,
so they're really good people over there. Well, thank you. That makes me feel encouraged. Now,
the next thing I have to do is actually make it look like a real NFT collection,
because I realized one of the things that was hurting me is people want all the traits
and the blah blah blah, and I was just like, but it's just it's prompt packs.
Why does it need to have like you know a tail or ears or sunglasses? But You know, I mean, like,
I don't want to fight the culture, so I think I'm just gonna have fun with this. Like, oh,
my PDF prompt pack has a rare trait. Yeah, I want to like do the whole PFP thing, honestly.
You can do like rarities without having to go the route of like glasses and stuff.
Stuffio does use a lot of AI for their covers, and they have a whole way of doing it with
like generating like rarities, but without it being the PFP thing. So.
You just end up getting like different covers, and some of them are more rare than others
for different reasons and different qualities. So definitely, you know, check it out.
If you have any questions, you know, reach out. And if that doesn't work for you,
maybe I can help you find something else. And that's it. Well, I don't want to be domineering.
I realize there's other people. There's other people on stage, and besides,
I am gonna get in the car in a few minutes, and I do really not want to get another ticket
for like yapping on spaces while I'm driving. Have you gotten one? Oh my god! Yes.
I just got a ticket a couple of months ago. It's just like, and I couldn't be like, but officer,
clearly paying attention to spaces was more important than paying attention to the road.
Somehow that didn't go over really well, and he still gave me the ticket. God damn it!
We actually have seen a lot of things. We used to see a lot of things as well.
Hear a lot of things as spaces. We've seen, we've heard somebody getting stopped,
getting arrested for DUI, also getting tickets. Somebody getting into a car crash. Oh my God!
It's it's it's been a journey. For sure, if somebody can do a compilation of those as recordings,
that that'd be interesting. The amount of things that you experience in spaces,
but you need a hands-free headset for one. Well, I mean, what you're just putting the headset on
while you're driving. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest with you right now. I mean, like, yes, I,
I would generally agree with that, but I don't know how many of you guys are in Seattle,
and I am in Seattle until the wind changes. I know that sounds very Mary Poppins, but like,
I am like Mary Poppins. Um, but I mean that's neither here nor there. But like I, I mean,
I came out here in Seattle. If you've ever been out here, it's not only hilly as fuck,
but the roads are a lot. There's a lot of winding roads out here. And the last thing that
I want to be doing is trying. It's it's also just because it it takes so much of my focus
to drive here or to drive around here. Like I thought L.A. Was bad. No, this is like.
This is like another level, which is why I need to start getting into public transit.
I need what I need to do is start figuring out the public transit system a bit better,
so that way I can be on my headphones like while I'm on the bus or something, because honestly,
like I'm still gonna have to drive to certain places like Costco and whatnot to pick things up, but.
If you've ever been out here, you know the lack of parking. It's worse than LA.
The price of parking, it's worse than LA. So once I figure that out, then I can have the headphones
on and I can yap to you guys. And and right now I'm kind of feeling like I am taking things
over a bit, and I don't, I don't want to, and I don't mean to. But I mean,
it's also just a warning to anybody who's in Seattle. You really should not be yapping on the phone
with people when you're driving up here. Definitely not. So be careful. You know what?
I can only imagine how expensive that ticket is. Oh my God. Well, the ticket I got when I was still
in California. I just moved here two weeks ago, but but it was but it was still bad,
and I don't want to get another ticket here. Especially I haven't changed my driver's license over
to to Washington State just yet, so I have to. I just I don't want a ticket here too, like
because that ticket I just got in California, like maybe a month or two ago. Before I left. Anyhow,
I am really gonna stop yapping for real right now. Drop down to listener
and let you beautiful people talk. And then when I cannot listen anymore,
I'm going to turn off Spaces so I don't get a ticket saying "Welcome to Washington State, bitch.
" Okay, I'm gonna stop yapping. Welcome to Washington State and welcome, Maureen, to
Corona Hour Coffee. What's up, girl? Maureen. Hey guys. Oh, I thought
you were just sleeping already. Jenny, stop bullying me. I'm taking my sweet time, okay. Listen,
I'm taking this from your own words. You say you just tune in and you go to sleep,
and that's what you do when you come here. So, I mean, I do that sometimes. It's only
because your voice is so sweet, and then I just go, oh yeah, yeah. That's what happens.
It's not my fault. Listen to you, Marine. We have real fire during those Friday,
so we gotta do a lot of reading. Gosh, I can't believe I finished school,
and then Cardano over coffee makes me read. I, I left all of that life behind me
when I left university. You're just getting started, Marine. Now you just read about proposals and,
you know, new upcoming and businesses, businesses exactly. Thank you, Chad. Businesses,
because this is what we do here in Cardano. We don't have projects. No, no, no.
We used to when we were a small ecosystem, but now we're mature. And projects don't cut it.
We need businesses. Businesses, you know, they have standards. So we read about this businesses,
Marine, and we ask questions. Okay, Mom. So how was your day today, Marine? What you been doing?
I just came back from school, and I am beat. I am tired. And it was a great day, though.
I built a couple of fun things with the kids. And we are working on polishing their their projects,
and so that by the final week everything is hosted. But this is our third week,
so we have one week left, and everything is done, done. Then I can go back to my life.
How's the weather? It's terrible. It rains every day, morning through evening,
and everywhere is muddy. What? Chad, you don't know what you're saying.
And it's not hot, right? It's just raining. It's just cool, kind of breezy, raining.
I don't know, but Chad loves to talk about the weather. He just loves the weather.
He's our weatherman. He should be the weather. Who talks about the weather, guys? Who does that?
Well, I find it fascinating because we all live like you know thousands of miles
away from each other. So it's like, even this morning,
like Jenny says, it's hot and sunny there, but it's cloudy and cool here.
Now comes B to talk about her weather. Look at what you started, Chad. Oh my gosh,
this is like you just—that's it. Now we need to hear about B's weather.
I came here to actually defend his fascination for weather because I too enjoy weather,
and I was going to write a post earlier today to talk about like the changing of the weather here
in Nora because it's been really warm, but I didn't. But I really love the weather,
and my my favorite, I guess, rain is very nice when I'm inside. So I agree with you, Chad.
Weather is really nice, and it's really nice. And you have to remember,
I live four four different seasons. So I get the winters and the summers and the autums and stuff.
So it's very fascinating. Did you do how much of the the the other seasons did you get?
How how much does the how long does the summer stay? How long do you get the spring for
and the fall? It depends on how how long the winter was. So like sometimes last year,
it didn't start to snow before like December twenty fourth, and was basically autumn
from like September to December twenty fourth, and then suddenly we had like snowstorms for
like three months straight, and then suddenly it was like spring. So usually it's between
three to four months, depending on the season and how long like the previous season lasted.
And I think this year winter is going to start a bit later as well because it's like for each year
it's just gotten warmer and warmer and warmer. So winter has just like been pushed further
and further and further. It is getting warmer everywhere, like here too.
Like we had the warmest summer drought, almost no rain. Yeah, it's getting warmer everywhere else
except for New Mexico. It's like the coolest summer we've had in ages.
Oh, me! I just pinned up at the top. Well, actually, hmm. Do you want to say anything about
Black Frost? I saw that post and that article you guys posted today, and I guess I saw the post
from Eric himself, so I pinned up his. But um, anything you want to say about that? I mean,
not really. Um, it. I mean, the post says it all, and um, like we've been trying to communicate uh
over and over that you know the idea was never that we were gonna own it, and.
We just have to take take things as they go, I guess. There's a lot
of words I I cannot communicate right now. I guess I just I yeah. It's um it's sad I guess,
but profound at the same time because we are completing our mission, and you know it's usually
when you hop off or when you're at the last train that you start realizing how far the journey
's been, and yeah. So we'll see what happens. Yeah, I agree. I mean, Black Frost has been, you know,
part of They're going on in history for a long time, and I guess a lot of things, you know,
that we have, we have them because Black Frost existed, and because Marek was just willing to foot
the bill for a lot of things. And I know a lot of people, I don't know,
just there's a lot of misconceptions in the space, right? Like, oh, you get a lot of money
because it's like everybody uses it or whatever, but it's like it costs a lot
of money to run something like that. As we were talking about the other day, you know, he—I know,
I know personally that he helped Alessandro with Nami. Well, he helped the ecosystem. I mean,
he did help Alessandro with a lot of stuff, and but it's because he knew
that Alessandro was doing things for the better of the community, and but he provided all the,
you know, the the API like the access and like for the transactions for free for Nami,
and everybody was using Nami, so that was just all provided by by you know.
Like it was all he was putting the bill for that stuff, and that's just like one one thing that
I know that that happened for a long, long time. And he probably did other stuff that I don't know
about. And I know that it costs a lot of money to develop this stuff and maintain it. And you know,
he's a he's always been very true to to wanting to see this ecosystem reach his potential. So. Yeah,
I would love to see that happen. You know, and that's and the other misconception.
What I was gonna say actually, that I got the real there, is that you know,
there's been catalyst proposals to do, but everything is in stages, and and people are like,
it should have happened already. A lot of that stuff happened already,
but not the full realization of this is this is yours kind of thing. This is ours.
This is how this works now, right? So yeah, it's like we say we want it,
but then when it comes down to us wanting to take risk, but because decentralization,
full decentralization means more risk, like personal responsibility. Right? It's a responsibility,
and it's like we want it, but once we realize that we're going to be responsible for it now,
people are like. You know, like you can't have it both ways. You know,
it's like it's like when I moved out. I moved out when I was like fourteen,
and I up until that point I was like super excited to move out, and I was like, oh,
I'm gonna have all this responsibility. I'm gonna care for myself and do all these things.
And then I ended up moving out for like a year, and it was so difficult.
Like I didn't know the first thing about like well, I knew how to make food and all that stuff,
but all the things that you have to take care of, like paying bills and making sure that the house
was clean and all that stuff that that my mom would usually do. And then I end up
moving back home the year after because I didn't know how much responsibility it was,
and it was so much nicer to like you know share that responsibility with with my family
and all that stuff. So I think I mean it's a it's a it's an analogy of like
you know we we always wanted the community to have it, and it's it's a matter of
like some those frameworks or not frameworks, but like you know safeguards to make sure
that we actually are setting everything up for success. Because yes, you could build it fast,
but then if things break, then are you really making sure that you know the walls are up
when they need to be? So. Um, which I guess, um, from the last proposal to this one,
there there was basically two different ways we could have, or two different routes
we could have gone, and but the intention was always, you know, decentralize it,
give it to the community, but do it in a safe safe way where we don't break anything along the way.
Um, so yeah, I I don't know. Oh, I couldn't like unmute. I'm sorry. Yes, I agree with you, B. Uh,
so yeah, I guess there's a call to action. Go check that out. Check out the proposal. Um,
see it with those eyes. You know, like is this something that we want to have
and we want to be responsible for, or do we just want um this type of stuff to be centralized?
And are we willing to pay for it more than we are going? You know, it's this. There are trade offs,
right? But we can't just have it both ways. Is what I'm trying to say and. You know,
I think it's important that that announcement was made so people can understand it.
I hope that people don't take it as like ultimatum. It's just actually reality. You know,
the the thing that you don't want to speak out loud because it's like a given,
but it just sometimes feels like people don't realize it. If you don't tell them,
that's what's going to happen. So it has to be said. So I know it's just a, a, like you said,
it's a hard one, but it's an important one, and it kind of feels good to just like put it
all out there, just get people to really make a decision based on understanding what, you know,
what's on the table, right? So, yeah, all the best. Be with that. Did you see the Mike made a post?
Our beautiful, awesome, apologetic Mike made a post about about the fork.
So he says to the I pinned it up at the top. To the seventy three percent
of you already running node v eleven point zero point one, well done. But there are still
twenty seven percent of people who have not updated yet, and he just wants you to know
that if you don't update. On July 18th, your node will stall, and you know you won't produce
any blocks, and you're gonna be like, "What's happening?" And then if you're delegating,
you're not gonna get rewards. So maybe you want to just reach out to your stake pool operator,
make sure they are updating. It's only like three more days. No, three more days or 28? Hold on,
just said. No, on the 18th, three more days. Reach out to your SBO, make sure they're updating.
You know, Mike, be he's going crazy there, making sure that. Um, those numbers
don't look like that. So do it for Mike. If you don't care about your rewards, do it for Mike.
Do it for Mike. Do it for Mike, and so on. Do it for his mental health. Let him go to sleep
and not feel stress over you know all those nodes not producing blocks
and all those delegates not getting their rewards. Sometimes it feels like it hurts him more
than it hurts. The leaders themselves, so and SPOs too. So yeah, make sure that you get that
out there. I'm so glad. I'm pretty sure he's named every single. He's given every single node
a name, and he's he's counting the ones who haven't upgraded yet. Oh, he knows the names.
He has a list, and he's checking them twice and scratching it. You know that. He's like,
I'm not gonna name them, but I know who they are. Mike, if you're listening,
just know that we love you. He'll be like, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." Oh,
we love that guy for sure. We love you, Mike. So, dude, what about B? What about
that this taxidermy like thing that Holland likes? It's into working raccoon. What was that about?
It looks like he has a collection of things. It's crazy. No, the thing is, he was at a hotel
and they had those in his hotel, and he ended up buying the raccoon. That is so funny, dude.
He showed up like at like what? It was funny. I wonder if he know. He had to know that he did.
You see the guy with the flip flops at the castle? I didn't, but it's just
like I saw so many like castle pictures. So cool! Like what a difference
it is to be visiting royalty in like Norway than anywhere around the world. You know,
it's just so cool. Listen, we have a dress code, okay? And basically, he just showed up there
with flip flops. I laughed every time I'm I'm like sad or like stressed.
I just think about like you know, imagine showing up to meet the king in flip flops,
and even the princess was shocked. It's just so beautiful. They are. Did anybody say anything?
I know they're really cool. I love that. They they definitely like embody
that that the thing you guys have that everybody's equal. I don't remember has a name. Yeah, yeah,
the law. The law of equality, I guess, or whatever. The love Yanti is that how you translate it?
Yeah, pretty much. I just don't know how to pronounce his the name, but it it is basically
we are all equal, or you shouldn't think that you're better than anybody else. But it really is.
It's just saying that we are all. Yeah, that you're not not above anybody else kind of thing. Yeah.
Actually, I came to remember something that was really beautiful because when they were presenting
their names for who was going to be on the national team, they made a video with the king actually,
where he was the one talk or gave a long speech about like you know what it means to be Norwegian
and Norway as a nation and stuff. And then in the video, it was flashing their names and stuff,
and it was like the first time. Experiences like that, and as they are returning home,
he's also the person to greet them or the first person to meet them on their way home,
and it's like this really beautiful full circle moment. And I was just like, "Ah,
I love this country so much." It's so interesting, and I just love how the World Cup
kind of like opens up this like window into like other cultures through sports. I again, Jenny.
What? What did you say, B? Did you hear? Can you hear me? Oh, did you lose me? Can you not hear me?
Oh, it's just me. I'm gone. Cat, I'm gonna hop off. One second. Can you hear me? Yeah,
we can hear you, Jenny. Oh, I was like, hello. Um, now what I was saying is like, yeah, like
how how awesome it is that it's just just the sports, you know? Like I know the World Cup
has this every four years, right? We get like this, uh. Two or three countries they get like
the spotlight more than ever before, and you get to learn so much about them.
These countries just steal your heart, and something kind of happens with with the Olympics.
But I think the World Cup has something special about that passion that gets people interested
into other countries and cultures, and so cool. You know how many people want to go to Norway now,
learn so much about the culture and Cavu Verde too, and it's like wow, I love it.
I absolutely love it. And also, like, get people to understand conflicts
and countries that might not make it to the news all the time, but they are going through
conflicts themselves too, or you know what they overcame to make it to where they are.
It's a it's a lot of it's really cool. I think that's like part part of my favorite things about
like the World Cup because I feel like it always happens, and you know we end up
getting closer together at the end of the day whenever we're fighting for who's going to win.
Agreed. What's up, Arito? Good morning. I see that you know it's it's going away party, Jenny.
It's been fun. I gotta say, man, you've really provided a lot of value on Cardano over coffee,
and I was just wanting to say thank you for that. Also, want to come up and bitch a little bit.
Because it seems like it's a lot of people's going away party. I mean,
hopefully this block frost thing passes. But like, I just saw this morning that Delta DeFi
is shutting down. Like, didn't they just start up? Oh wow, I didn't see that. Oh man. So like,
you know, it's like they got the algorithm straightened out just in time for me to get
all the bad news delivered to my doorstep. That's wild. You know what I mean? I'm just like, wow,
dude. Like, what is going on around here? And how do we fix it? Does anybody have any ideas
how to fix it? Like, how do we get Jenny back? No, I'm kidding. Jenny, what's your future hold?
You spinning off your own your own card on over something else or? What what does your Cardano
future hold? I'm still around. I mean, I'm doing other things, but yeah,
I'm sure I'll host some spaces, probably more specific spaces or just random spaces.
And I don't know, just I have to wait and see. But you know, this I'm not going away. I'm just not.
You know, it's just I just don't want. It's it's I've done a lot here.
It's uh just it's it's just you know it's time. Don't want Cardinal Coffee to be my responsibility
anymore. Doesn't mean that I'm not going to participate, or I'm not going to support it,
and I'm not going to be around. It's just, you know, just let other people let other people do that
now. But I'm, I'm around. You know, I'll, I'll just face it in a different way
and kind of regain my voice. Right. That's one of the things. Like I'm very cognizant about caring
and adding value to Cardinal Coffee. That I have adopted a way of of speaking, a way of doing,
and what I share, what I do, so I don't hurt Cardinal or coffee because I take that
like I cannot like I hold it in my hand. I hold the coffee cups hard in my hand,
and I feel like whatever I do, whatever I say, is going to you know be reflected on Cardinal
or coffee, and I care about it so much. Um and I just want to make sure that this is something
that is also cared cared for by other people as much as I care about this.
Like I wake up all the time and make sure the things are done. I make sure that we make the post
that we have the thing that we you know get the guests all these different things.
I I don't speak as freely as I would. Um, when I'm here as a coffee cup,
I try not to say things are like just Jenny. If I do, I make sure that I say, Hey,
this is Jenny speaking. But I still don't kind of like push in. And I just the more I do this,
the less. The, I guess the less energy I have and time to do my own spaces where I have
my own voice, I used to do it more and and because of you know balancing my time
and putting value into creating other things and working on other things and and going to school,
taking classes, doing things like working on other projects, I can't join other spaces as much.
So it's like, if I'm just going to be coffee cop, I can't be Jenny. Right. So I think it's
and I don't know how to be how to show up, just a percentage of me. So. I'm coffee. I'm coffee cop.
Jenny becomes just the coffee cop brand, and I'm just trying to be like you know objective
and try to not to be like pushing things because I personally like them,
and it's just it becomes you know I'm restricted. I'm I'm a little tired of that too. You know,
I just want to be me. But so you're still gonna be Jenny.
You're just gonna be like ten percent more Jenny. Yeah. So we're we're getting extra Jenny now. Uh,
going forward, is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, and then I can show up in Cortonoro Coffee
and just be fully Jenny, you know. And it's not gonna be like, oh my God, this Cortonoro Coffee
people are, are they suck? Look at how they talk, you know. And it's just me, it's Jenny.
You can just hate on me, and I don't feel like I'm hurting Cortonoro Coffee. You just hate on me.
So it's new, improved Jenny with ten percent more Jenny. See, you got to you got to promote this.
This is a good thing. It's not a bad thing, you know. So so yeah, it seems like it was a sad day
when I first walked in here, like people were saying goodbye and stuff.
But it's more like hello more than ever, right? Yeah, I'm throwing my own party. I'm I'm excited.
It's sad, but I'm not going anywhere. I mean, this team has me too. I'm I'm gonna be around.
I'll probably cover for some some you know emergencies they need here and there. Why not? You know,
help them and make sure that you know things are good. But yeah, it's good.
It's actually a good thing. Some nothing to be sad about. You know, it's just a just as sad
as you get when your kids grow up that you're like oh, but it's not bad. I guess you know.
Something like that. Something like that. Well, I'm glad to hear that it's just offering you
more freedom and autonomy, and a way to go forward and express your voice in a way
that is unlimited, and and all of that. So that that's good. I feel good for you,
and I'll see you around. You know what I mean? Yeah. What do you thought?
I tried to join your space the other day. I know. Oh no, no, you didn't want to catch me then.
You didn't want to catch me then. No, that was a bad. I see. I only fired you
because somebody treated me badly in another space. I was like, "Dude, what was that all about?
" You know, and so you didn't want to get in on that. I actually wanted to just to show you,
just to help you calm down. I was like, "Oh, he probably needs a little, a little love," but yeah,
it didn't work for some reason. I probably joined, and it just didn't let me join. It was weird,
so it's probably over. And it was still showing us if it was going, but yeah. Yeah, I just posted.
I just posted it to make a statement. I didn't even really keep it open, but like five seconds,
and then just like left it sitting there so that you know, like people could get the message. Oh,
that's funny. You're funny. Oh my gosh. Well, I do want to say we do have real Five Friday. So,
Ariza, if you want to do me a solid, we I post. I pinned it up. It's the second tweet.
If you can share it, try to get more people in here. You know, this is something that
I've been hearing about forever. Charles has talked about building this thing for years now,
so they're going to be here Friday, and yeah, I think that you'll probably like it.
I'd love for you to come join and ask some questions, Marine. Disappeared,
but she's supposed to be hosting that Friday. Hopefully, nothing happens.
She's been having some crazy Friday moments, but that will be officially my last day too.
But it's going to be a good one. I think so. I don't know. Are you guys familiar with it? B,
do you know much about Real F Corito? Have you guys looked into it? Well,
I know that I'm not allowed to participate because I'm not in the United. I mean,
I'm in the United States, and so, but it's basically a lending platform, micro lending,
I would assume, right? You're like I don't know anything because I know I can't participate.
That's funny. Very American of you, Ardi. Yes, I know the feeling. I guess just temporarily, right?
I mean, if we ever get more clarity in things, maybe we can participate in some of this stuff.
I don't know, but yeah, it's. Do you remember when you were around when Charles used to do
the Kiva stuff that he used to like lend money to to like random people around the world?
He used to do the the talks like his YouTube sessions, and then he will end them by doing
a micro loan with somebody. Do you remember that? Maybe not. Drone, drone, drone. Well,
this is supposed to bring something like that to us. What's up, B? I just wanted to say
that I have to hop off to another meeting, but I'll probably be here if you go overtime today.
But I, I mean, I'm. It's not a sad day for me because I know how to reach you and all that stuff.
But it's really great that you are taking. And focusing more on yourself.
I know you know it's been years in this ecosystem and giving a lot to the ecosystem,
and not expecting anything back. But actually, you know, taking some time
and building your own personal brand and giving yourself peace is is a really good move.
And I I really am really happy for you. And yeah, we're gonna celebrate today.
I'll I'll grab a beer. Love you, B. We'll only keep it over time if I have people to talk to.
So come up here and talk to me. It's a party. So this chat, this chit chat. What else is happening?
That that deltafy thing, man. I didn't even know that was happening. Let me just check it out.
That sucks. Actually, they're really good people, and they were working on Hydra stuff.
I guess there's just no money. Lack of operation runway. Let me just, just find.
Am I still connected here, Jenny? Yeah, pin it up at the top. This is the the stuff you gotta do.
Is join us. I have to join us, Jenny, on one side,
so I can pin stuff at the top from my computer and my on my iPad.
I think I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket today, and if I win a billion dollars,
I'm going to do some funky shit on Cardano.
I'm just going to support all these teams myself or something. You know what I mean?
What was that, Anita? You're going to support all these people? I missed that. Hold on.
No, that's not
a promise. I I said I'll buy a lottery ticket, and if I win, so yeah, there's a lot of ifs there.
There are a lot of ifs. If you win the lotto, do you play the lotto? Because funny thing,
a lot of people say that, but they don't. Yeah, I don't normally play.
That's why it would be out of the norm for me to buy a lotto ticket. That's what I'm saying.
That's funny. A lot of people say if I win the lotto, but they don't even play it.
I don't play the lotto. You know, it's just it's one of those things that I feel
like it's easier to make millions than to win millions. But I don't know. It's just how it works.
And we're going through hard, through through weird times, guys. Um, you know,
there's gonna be a lot of. Finally, I couldn't find this. Okay, I pinned it up at the top,
so you guys can give Delta Phi little love. This is so sad. Um, they're really good people,
and they work so hard. Oh, I don't know, guys. We have to do some reflection here and see.
I understand it's gonna happen. I mean, I lived the dot-com boom. I remember seeing all this like.
Things shut down. Even awesome things that people use were shutting down for many reasons, right?
And yeah, so we have to, we have to be—I don't know—a little caring and at least show people
some some appreciation. So when you see a post of people leaving, just don't discard it. Just even
if you don't know much about them, make a little post to say thank you for your service,
or make people feel. Like they're not being taken for granted. I think that's the worst part.
It's like people have given it so much, and they just feel like they just walk away,
and people don't even notice it, you know. And it could happen when you're so overwhelmed,
and it's happening everywhere that you kind of like get desensitized, you know. Like,
it's just crazy. Like I'm going through something crazy right now. Like I'm from Venezuela, right?
And we recently had a horrendous back-to-back earthquakes that shook the earth.
In ways that it's not very common. Usually, like when you get an earthquake,
you get like side to side movements. But this double earthquake that happened in Venezuela shook
the earth in one direction first, and then on another direction. So ended up being kind of
like a circular motion, which brought down so many. The devastation was just so much bigger
because of that, right? And they're still trying to get people out. They're still trying to like
it's been like weeks. Now and it's really crazy, but the first two weeks
there's always like everybody's there, everybody's there, and eventually
like people start going like there's so much they can hear about like bad news, sad news,
people losing everything that people kind of disconnect, start disconnecting,
and they just can't hear it anymore. And I feel like something similar happens here.
We hear so many people leaving, so many people like shutting down or doing
other things that we kind of like just don't. We just scroll through it,
just scroll like it's nothing. Like oh, just one more, you know. Just we can't process it, right?
I think it's a something that we do to protect our psyche, to protect our our mental health.
But it's important to kind of stop and at least just, just make sure that people know
that they were, you know, they were seen, and their work and dedication wasn't, you know,
for nothing. That at least they recognized them. Some of them, she's probably working here for years
and dedicating
a lot. So yeah, just just be be mindful of that if you can. That's sad. I didn't know that.
Ended up at the top, I think. Yeah, that's high. So I'm curious, what's wrong
with the business model? I mean, not the business model of these company
or these these these yeah companies, uh, but or or cardinal governance. Like, how do we fix this?
This whole thing is happening. Like, why? You know, I mean, like they were part of the um,
weren't they part of the Draper Dragons um thing? Like the the workshops and all that.
Weren't they one of the projects that came out of that thing? So like they were clearly
like somebody thought it was a great idea and uh. I mean, like, how are they just?
What type of support did they need? Apparently, they needed more transactions or something to, to,
you know. I mean, I don't know how all that works, but honestly, personally,
I'm part of the problem because I never used it. So, so maybe that's where start start with myself,
right? But you know, I work I work a lot. You know, I don't spend all my time on the chain.
You know what I mean? So, like, what do we got to do to solve this problem? Like,
what is the solution? Is it the ADA price going down, down, down? Is that the problem? And then,
how do we solve that? You know, or whatever. Like, what's what? I mean,
I know it's a big question to ask, but if anybody has any opinions about how we rectify this,
like what what do we got to do? I mean, it's just hard, Orito, because we have a lot of a lot
of companies that they're tackling similar things in different ways. Some of them in the same ways,
some of them in different ways. So we just don't have the amount of people using stuff.
It's just simple. I just don't think you can really fix that. As a user,
you know you can't be expected to to just be a user for all these things. It can't.
It's not realistic, right? It really isn't. So I don't. I don't. I mean,
there's a time that people are trying to blame people like, "Use the change, use." Yeah, but I mean,
come on, dude. Like, it can't just use all my money, like, and and make transactions
and just just to make transactions is like to keep something alive like that. I I get it,
and the situation is what it is. If money's not coming in, you can't. It's like Shop local, right?
Like you get like a hard times, and your your you know local stores will be like, please shop local.
Shop local is like if I shop, I'll shop local, but I'm not even shopping, right?
So I feel like we're we we got to the point that people are not even you know
and just can't be spending money. A lot of people are just kind of holding their phones, um,
waiting to see what happens, right? And If you're just holding your fawns,
what what are you gonna do? You know, it's just you hold them. Some people just stake them.
They don't want to, you know, be paying attention. If they're not gonna be paying attention,
they don't want to be playing around in places that they can get wrecked, or you know, it's just.
There's no movement right now, so I think what we can do is create things that attract users,
so then users can discover other other serious applications like this.
But we we gotta bring in fun stuff. I just don't know any other way. I mean,
we need a we need applications that are fun that attract people to want to use it.
I know it sounds ridiculous, unless we're gonna unless we're gonna be like an institutional thing
that nobody uses for fun, but people are just gonna use behind the scenes.
Then then it's gonna be up to those who are just fine. Institutional adoption to make it happen,
you know, the CAF or why not? But if we want regular users to use the blockchain,
we have to create applications that people use just just to use them, you know. And I don't know,
we we're definitely lacking on that, you know. NFTs just for the sake
of collection is not gonna do it. People just don't want to do gaming. I don't know
why microtransactions. I mean. I think things like that, integrated in like Web2 things,
is will be the way to go. Like chat says, payment, you know, cash apps,
things like that could also be helpful. Just useful applications that really get people to use it
for. Doesn't matter if it's Cardano or not. I think that that's part of the problem.
We're just here thinking like, oh, you know, Cardano versus Ethereum. Oh, that shit needs to go,
guys. There's like this recent thing. Everybody's like, "Oh, Ethereum is like basically updating to
Cardano." It's like, no, it's not. And you guys can laugh all the way to like zero,
because guess what? They have users, and and it's open source, and everything that's open source. At
the end of the day, it's what's going to happen. If they have the users, they get to update
and change and become hybrid if they want to, and the users are there,
and there's they're they're still going to have people using their blockchain. And we won't.
So I think that we just have to kind of focus on bringing value to our ecosystem, and value is just,
you know, useful stuff. Got to be useful stuff. Not saying that you know DeltaFi is not useful.
It's just like we have a lot of shit like that depends on if you have the volume.
These things are useful. People are coming here for that. But how do you attract people
to Cardano right now? I don't know. I mean, they they have that alpha growth proposal
that seeks to bring people. But again, if we're gonna bring in all these people from those Crazy,
like huge incentives, and you don't have other things that you can present to these people
while they're here to use the blockchain for other reasons other than those incentives.
As soon as those incentives are gone, people are going to be gone as well. So, you know, yeah,
we just gotta focus on our culture and building, you know, building stuff to stick, you know,
real stuff. So. I don't know, Arito. I don't want people to shut down either,
but I I also can't feel responsible for all of them, right? I just I can just support them
and you know give them what we do here in Cordero Coffee, just provide them a little you know
opportunity to talk to people and be discovered and whatnot and things like that.
But you know we don't have the users. We don't have the users. No, we just don't.
So I I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that because you know so it sounds like it's a it's
a a marketing issue or or or you're saying that I mean I don't know you said a lot of things there
and it's basically a combination of many things right well marketing will be one thing
but you can just like what are you going to market so very simple we have stuff io it's a product
that can be more ready to market to like normies. Because it does have an easy way to like rent them
and whatnot, right? What other things do we have out there that can say like, "Oh,
it's gonna appeal to regular people." There's useful. That's cool.
We just really don't have that much, Torito. That's the thing, right? It's like we need, we need,
we need games that are just basically Web two games, like that do microtransactions, for example.
You don't have to build a Web three game. You can just like. You know, look at the games out there.
They get a lot of money from people. Like I was talking to somebody the other day.
Look at uh Monopoly Go. Have you ever seen that? Are you familiar with Monopoly Go?
I'm aware of its existence. I've never played it. Okay. Well, that's a perfect example.
If you get a chance, download that thing. It's like casino game. Little like it's crazy.
It's addicting. It takes little like those little microtransactions stuff from people and.
And whatnot, and then you collect some stuff like oh, you know, like uh, dicees and like oh,
the the little um, what is it the the little tokens and things that you use the for the board uh,
what do you call that? Your avatars, kind of. You you have different things you can collect.
You can collect cards. You can collect tokens. You can. But it's all like none of that is like
real assets, right? It's all like just regular typical things you collect are there, and that's it,
right? But. It's the kind of game that is designed to get people to come back and come back
and come back. They have the element of playing with other people, sending each other gifts
and stuff. And if you want to keep playing, and you don't want to wait until your thing gets,
you get more chances to play, then you got to pay, you know, two ninety nine to get more rolls,
or three nine or four ninety nine. And there's just like this little transactions that feel like
nothing. They make so much money, and they have so many people playing this stuff.
And if you could just have a game like that, then somehow it doesn't have to be a slow game,
which is just what the problem is. That a lot of people try to do games is just so complicated,
starting from zero, making them all blockchain. You can just have it so the settlement
of the transactions happen on chain for whatever reason or however way you want to do it.
Find ways to like take crypto for payments and have NFTs as real collections,
so you can really send your your tokens and. In in a certain way, you can sell them.
You can add to it, right? It's like a game that's already cool, that already people use,
that it gets people addicted. But then they can actually add this functionality to it.
You don't have to reinvent the wheel. People want to recreate a game, buy a game.
There's so many games out there that have this capability. They already exist from back in the day
when we had Facebook. Do you remember? Or do you know Facebook when it started that we had games
there? Do you remember that? Yes, yes. They had Zynga. Zynga was a big company that had like a lot
of games. There's a lot of those games that were popular there. They just went bankrupt
when Zuckerberg said he's shutting it down because he couldn't he couldn't find a way to make money
out of it because we didn't have blockchain back in the day. So he shut down this whole part
of Facebook that allowed for you to have applications within Facebook.
And a lot of these companies went bankrupt, and a lot of games that were created for
that—they're out there. You can actually buy them, and they're not expensive.
There's so many games you can actually put a little bit of money and buy them,
and just integrate this stuff on the back end. You know, and just try that. I mean,
we could do that. We could do some things like that, and have like a place where you can send people
like here, play some games. Even the community that sits here today will play.
You don't even have to have people from outside of Cardano do it. You can say we create this
for ourselves, for us to have fun while we're here. And then if we start using it and having fun,
then the app store starts showing the use, and then the app store shows it to other normal people.
They're not even in the ecosystem, and you don't even have to go out there and tell people,
"Come play this game. It's on Cardano." That's just like lame. We need to stop thinking that way.
You know, it's like selling Cardano as Cardano is like. There's like different phases.
We have to mature. We've already like we're here like sitting waiting for this bull run on crypto.
That bull run that we lived those those eras we kind of you burn eras and you moved into you
mature into new ones and. Now it's just—it's not about that. Now it's really about like integration.
The you know the to the real world. You don't sell the blockchain, trying to get token go up.
It's just if we maintain the the the mindset. Old ideas are liabilities. Let's put it that way.
It's actually something I think I learned from Kiyosaki. Kiyosaki was the one that said that.
I don't know if it was Kiyosaki, but yeah, Robert Kiyosaki, I think, was the one that said
that old ideas are liabilities. If you think that the idea that brought you to A to B
and gave you success, it's not going to be the idea that takes you to the next step.
And if you continue with the same mindset, you're just going to go down until you crash
because old ideas are liabilities. And I think that we need to just divorce the old ideas
and the idea that we're just sitting here waiting for something to return. It's not going to happen.
We just Have to move into the new direction. Now we have to look at that, seek opportunities, right?
So we spend so much money in infrastructure. Now we really have to start doing something with that.
You know, all the things that we couldn't do four years ago, five years ago,
when everybody else was ranking and doing great, Cardano was missing a lot of shit.
We didn't have a lot of infrastructure, and we missed out on a lot of users
because we didn't have that. So we got to go back and say, why did we want to do in 2001
and 2002 that we couldn't do it because the tech wouldn't allow it, and then. Find those things
and say, do they apply today? Oh my God, why do we abandon that? Because we just couldn't do it.
But maybe it's still something that applies, right? So we definitely focus so much in TVL
that I just, I personally, Jenny, again, reason why I want to start speaking about shit
under my name. I just don't, I don't believe in that. We were, we're chasing what Ethereum had back
in the day, and we think that that the idea of like bringing something back that's not coming back.
Is the way for Cardano. I just don't. I just don't think about that the same way, you know.
But guys, I'm totally ranting here. I need, I need more people to come up here and chat with me.
This is. I still have another 45 minutes to go. This is my last hosting day in Cardano over coffee,
and I will definitely love to have conversations instead of monologues.
Although I appreciate your Orito asking questions, that helps. I see a lot of smart people
in the room down there. Step away from your other screen and get over here. Seriously, I know.
But yeah, I mean, I'm still here. You know, I I love what we have. I think I'm the community, man.
We have such an amazing community. I think any community that's awesome,
that's that's that's passionate around any anything in the world can do anything they want.
So I think that that's that's what I find more value in here in the ecosystem.
And I think that ideas that come together um in such a passionate place,
and then you have tech that we're familiar with. That's that's what it's all about, you know, and um
and then to what Phil says. Phil has said, Phil Sora, right? He's he's talks a lot about
like injury repairability and like cross chain, you know, collaborations. And I agree.
I think that we need to finally kind of like start speaking more as the industry as a whole,
as opposed to being such a like culty cult and being like, I don't know if it's to win, you know?
It's like we have to win in the sense that we want this industry as a whole to become, you know,
part of our everyday lives, so that we can. We can all succeed, you know.
So I think that that mentality also could help because, you know, crypto is not very popular
out there. Not something you can just stand out there and tell people, "Come to crypto.
" It just doesn't work like that. This just doesn't. So yeah. Tell me about it, Jenny.
I want to say thank you for being a host on Card on Over Coffee for so long
and such a. A core centerpiece of our team. We're really gonna miss you.
I honestly don't know what we're gonna do with you next without you next week. So and next month
and the rest of the year. So it's it's a sad day, but I know
that you're going to be Jenny one thousand now. So that's awesome. I'm looking forward to it. It's
but yeah, it's with heavy heart. And you've been a a mentor and a role model to me,
and I really appreciate it. And I love you, Primo. Oh, I love you, Chad, and I'm around. You know,
I'm going around, so it is good. And I see, I see. Um, I want to get sappy. Oh,
I see somebody here in the room. I see Individual Digital. Um, he is Seba from
the Cardano Foundation, and I just wanted to say hello to you. He's uh, he's everywhere.
He does a lot behind the scenes. And yeah, if you're not following him, give him a follow.
He also does his own little podcast on his own. He does really interesting stuff.
I'm probably gonna have more time to pay attention to the things he's doing. But yeah,
he's a community guy. He cares a lot. And every time you see a roundtable from found
the Cornell Foundation, he's the guy that makes sure everything's happening right, like the timing,
the sounds. Like he makes sure every microphone is like leveled. The the The presentation
that things are on time. He is so good at what he does. I don't know if he, if he does, you know,
production and things as a side hustle or not. But you should ask him because he's really good
at what he does. So production wise, the guy is a professional. So give him a follow
and tell him thank you. Say about when you see one of those round tables.
He's the guy behind the scenes making them all super cool. So yeah.
It's not all executives there in the foundation. Just regular people like us doing awesome things.
Ah, Danny's out here too. He's doing he's doing foundation stuff too. I can't believe it.
It's just so weird to to think about now Danny being part of Creator Foundation,
but it's got you're about to hear a lot from him because he's running the whole Catalyst stuff.
And I'm I'm sure we're gonna hear a lot about it soon because that new pilot program is coming.
So I'm excited. I can't wait to hear more about it. So follow Dani as well. Who else is here?
Tamacat, Tamacat, this amazing, inspiring, lovable artist who has been in the ecosystem for a long,
long time. If you click on her PFP. It will tell you that she joined
April two thousand twenty-three, but that's a lie. What happened is she lost her account,
and she had a lot of followers back in the day, and she had to start from zero.
But she did so much for so many artists, and she she did an artist collective where she moved
and put together collections and and drops for all artists from all across the ecosystem.
And she definitely there was a time the Cardano was thriving. Artists were finding Cardano to be
the home for them to share their art, and she was pumped. So if you haven't followed Tamika,
she lost her account, and she could definitely use the love. Love you, Tamal. Who else is here? Oh,
we got Blockjock coming up. What Blockjock? Rod G. I see Rod. Rod. With the DRNZ pool,
Rod is trying to make it to one million delegation by the end of the year.
He hosts spaces every Sunday with the Cordana Ministry. He is a teacher,
and he has been teaching about blockchain and AI to his students for a long time, even
before it was cool. So he's very involved in Midnight as well. He does a lot
of really cool get-togethers in California and the San Diego area. And one of the coolest things
that he does is that he brings together people from all different areas of blockchain.
And he does a lot of cross-chain stuff, and it's really, really cool. So
if you are looking to delegate to somebody, delegate to DRMZ. Help him reach that goal.
Once you reach one million, a lot of doors open to you. So. Definitely support people like that.
They're putting so much heart and time and effort into the ecosystem, and you get your rewards
anyway. So yeah, check it out and give him a follow. What's up, Blockjock? Are you here?
Did we lose you? He showed as a listener on my screen. I'm here. I'm here.
I was trying to share the space, and so yeah, it doesn't allow you to do
and then have the button open to open the mic at the same time. Maybe someday they'll have that.
Who knows? But yeah, hey, I just wanted to check in and make sure I did not miss your last day
of being a host. And I mean, it would be cool to have, you know, memory and pictures.
You know what I mean? Of of all the days and the memorable moments that we've had with you as a host
of the show. That would be awesome to have. Sadly, I do not have it. Currently available,
but you know, I know there's quite a few people here, along with myself,
that have been impacted in so many different ways from you, both from positive and then I,
I have always found that when I get frustrated with something, when somebody's saying something,
it typically means I really need to start listening a little bit more there, especially
if it bothers me, if like somehow internally it feels like I don't like hearing that. You know,
it typically means that I need to not run from it or ignore it. I need to actually, you know, honor
that, right, or be aware of that, right. So, and you have done that in so many different ways
over the years with me, and it is in essence shaped a lot of who I am here in this in this space
on blockchain and everything else that I do. You know, so you know this already, but you know,
I need to say it sometimes, you know, and honor the relationship that you and I have, you know,
because. Those that are the most difficult relationships to have are probably the most valuable,
in my mind, and it's always proven itself out to be that you know. And we haven't always agreed on
everything, and that's okay, you know, because I like that. You know, it's important.
That what would I learn from somebody that I always agreed with? Nothing, you know.
We agree on the important stuff. Just how much we love each other. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So anyway, that's my view and my experience. And this is kind of the end of an era here,
and it doesn't mean you're leaving or going anywhere, you know, or that we're not going to talk.
Just means that responsibility level is changing. You know, and so, but um, yeah, this is kind of
a a momentous day in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean, lucky you, right? You,
you're out there doing your thing, blockchain. So, as you know, it feels that you know when you get,
I I want to have my my own time to do stuff. Like you're still around, but you're not, you know,
as much, and you're doing your own stuff and your own things. And I just don't know
how to be like that, right? So, I just gotta like, just I just don't know how to be like that. Like,
if I'm grinding our coffee, I'm like making sure that things get done, making sure that it's up.
I was like. I can't not be that person, right? So if I could be the block jock,
I will totally be the block jock. Like it's a priority thing for me, you know. I know with you,
you take you've taken on more of a a responsibility role there and a real host role.
Where I'm just going to put it out there that I have always been kind of a co-hoster and not a host,
and I found myself to be very good as a or. I add more to it when I am, you know,
like an add-on to the hosting responsibilities versus being the principal host, you know.
So I'm not sure why that is exactly. Maybe that's why I played rhythm guitar rather
than lead guitar. I like rhythm too. I like rhythm too, but you carry the rhythm.
Let the lead do what he wants. Play around, you know. And and I think that's been you, right? So,
it has to do how I started here, dude. Like I was doing my own stuff, and I would just come here
and hang out and pour down over coffee, and Hero carried all the responsibility,
and then he was exhausted and. I came in to help him, so my beginnings,
my my the way I started the Cortona Coffee was supporting, hero support the show.
So it it was always in a that supporting, carrying on like the logistics behind it,
and then eventually he left, and I basically just took over that part one hundred percent
when he was gone. So. It's it's it just has to do with that, and I don't know
how to be in criminal coffee without being that because that's what I've always done, right?
Like you know, like the calendar, the thing. The I'm even financially supporting criminal coffee.
Like I I I pay for those check marks. I pay for the for the for the calendar, for the things,
for the the the other stuff. The you know the link tree, so we can have a nicer link tree,
and make sure that everything's updated, and make sure that we do the spaces,
and then we do the scheduling, and then the email and responding to the emails.
And which we do get emails, by the way, you know. So it's just that—that's what I mean.
It's just like a lot of responsibility behind it, right? I just can't do that anymore,
and I don't know how to not be that, right? It's just what I've always done in cardon coffee, right?
Like I've always done that. That's why I've avoided it, honestly, because I knew
I wasn't going to be able to maintain it at the level that I wanted to. And then it would suck,
and then people would be like, "Hey, man, you're not, you know what I mean?
" It's like all that stuff, you know. And I'm like, "Okay, you just need to set a boundary here,
having to do what you what you can do." I sponsor things, like I've actually literally paid out
of my pocket to sponsor things on behalf of Curtain Over Coffee, like I've, you know,
made like swag when we go to events, and it's just, I, it's like, ah, I just, and it's not my thing.
It's like an all of us thing, right? So it's like. I just don't know how to show up less
than I always show up, so it's the only way I can do it. You know, maybe in the future, if I
if I separate completely and it still exists and I can be part of it in a in a small way,
I will love to do that. You know, but yeah, I got to kind of cut the umbilical cord. Got it.
No question, and have some time for yourself too, because this is like you know for anybody
that is wondering, it's like it's a seven twenty four hour job, and you know there's a lot of work
to it. And by the way, you know none of us get paid to do this. You know,
and and especially those in leadership role. And Brian was like. He did a lot of that.
I really miss Brian. I was thinking about him the other day. You paid to do this. I paid to do this.
I know, right? You actually paid to do. Have the responsibility to do the work,
which is crazy to think about. You know, what was weird is the other day.
It's like I saw somebody post and on a, I don't know what account it is. It may be an A non account.
It may not be. I have no idea. But it's like our, you know, the Cardona
over coffee doesn't seem to be relative anymore, or it doesn't have relative conversations.
You know, to discuss, and I was like, no, that's absolutely not the case,
and I completely disagree with you. And I said, "Oh well, then, you know, okay." And I'm like,
"Okay, is this a bot or something?" I mean, it just seems so odd to me. Is this like, you know,
this is the bot that just creates doubt on everything, whatever it is, or something? You know,
and I'm like, "This is so. This is the weird part about, you know, ex socials and stuff like that.
You know, see, you absolutely never know, you know. But I'm like, no, absolutely not.
It hasn't become irrelevant. You know, it is relevant. It stays relevant. The reason is, is
because we talk about things daily." As they're changing, as they're moving, both at the governance,
at you know the D rep level, at you know anything to do with technical side, you know hard forks,
all the stuff, everything that goes on in Cardano, we absolutely touch on it at some point,
you know whether it be ourselves or guests that come in or just regular people jumping up to speak,
right? So it's absolutely relevant, no question, and it's the only show that you can go to every day
that has a structure, a set up agenda, and a schedule, you know that allows
everybody to kind of be participate and be a part of, without it being a little bit more chaos,
you know party. You know, like something like Esco does, right? Esco is a little bit more.
You can do whatever you want there. You know, it's not a lot of structure there, right?
So this is the only one. If anybody's, you know, let's them get something else out there.
I don't know about, you know, but yeah. So. Yeah, we we fought to be we fought we fought hard to
to be consistent, and it's a consistent space, and it's open to everyone,
and hopefully it will remain that way. And you know, if you want to be part of it,
reach out to the team. You know, it's like definitely it takes a takes a village to carry something
like this forward. Sometimes it can be you know it can be hard, it can be definitely hard,
but what's important is that. Well, you know, since I posted at the top up there
about the Delta DeFi, and Blockjock happens to be one of the people that I hear from
on a regular basis who really does talk about the DeFi that he he participates in,
I was curious if I could get his thoughts on the Delta DeFi Heavy Heart letter
that was written today. Yeah, it sucks, man. I didn't see that yet. I've been kind of head down
on some other stuff, you know. So you're just giving me the notice now, but you know,
Delta did have you know something that was operational that they actually put money into,
a lot of time and effort into, and so it's sad to see that you know it's not going to be.
Did you use it any longer? Yeah, I actually went in there and used it, and I actually created a few.
I used a GPT model to actually assess what was going on within the the the app
and in in the Hydra head or during into Delta DeFi's app, and then actually made some money with it,
you know, and was able to arb in there. So it definitely worked, you know.
It was just it had some limitations, and it had to be shut down, or in essence,
the head had to be dialed down. And then it took about two hours, and then it redialed back up.
And I remember being at the beginning of one of the redials where they, you know,
reestablished the head, the new Hydra head. And the protocol where you could then interact with it
and watched it populate the order book both on the you know the buy and the and the sell side right
and or the bid and the ask and it was just it was interesting to watch
but it wasn't something that I felt like at that point I'm like okay. This won't work this way,
you know. There's too much work, and a lot of centralization there because there was a lot of work
in the background, where most of it was not being automated yet, and it was
because of just the limitations of Hydra, you know. So that's one of the reasons I was so critical
of the Hydra guys, the IO Hydra guys, when they were coming in and singing for their supper
with the proposals that they had out, which had got approved, by the way. I wasn't against.
The overall idea, but I did feel as though that there were some limitations there
that they had not addressed, and they kind of skirted around the Delta DeFi protocol
and what it could and couldn't do, and somehow just glossed over the fact that you know Hydra is not
ready yet for prime time when it comes to that, and that's supposed to be supposed to be what
it's all about, you know. So I don't know. I just wonder, Joe. Well, those that was
very valid feedback, and I appreciate that because I was trying to figure out where they went wrong
or what how we went wrong by supporting them or whatever. So that tells me everything
I needed to know. Really, that was a lot there. Okay. Yeah, and it feels like,
and here's the other part, right? Is the Hydra team? Everybody has to go out as leads.
This has probably been come come down from up on high, right? Okay, everybody that's a lead
of a particular part of what IO does that you're building on as a team,
you're gonna go have to go out and sing for your supper, you know. And they're like, oh, okay,
you know. But here's the thing: a couple of these things, I don't think IO is gonna like
just completely trash, you know, throw in the wastebasket all the work that they've done.
That is that's currently there, right? Simply because they don't get approved, you know.
So they'll continue. But did they get approved at the end? They got approved at the end.
They got funded, but I found it though unnecessary. That particular, I the team wasn't necessary,
and I didn't want them to take it personally, you know. But I knew I O if they did not get
the proposal funded, I would still continue on with Hydra. Why? Because this is something that
Charles has been championing forever. Okay, and he doesn't want it to go away.
It's just not developed into something that we originally thought it would be when we talked about
it. I mean, how long we've been talking about it? Hi, Jenny. It's been a long time. Dude, I know.
I I longer than Naldafi existed. Because I'll tell you a joke. It's like, oh, funny thing. Like
when when we were in Berlin. Yeah, they I love them. They're such a awesome team,
and they were doing interviews to people, right? Like like putting stuff in your head,
and they have the coolest swag to have, like the coolest things from them as well.
And we're in the elevator, and they wanted to do to record a video of me, like you know,
the telling them what was cool about Hydra, right? And then they're like all setting up whatever,
and it's like, okay, so what's so cool about Hydra? And it's like. Hydro fixes everything, you know.
I was just being funny, right? Because we used to make so much fun of that back in the day,
and they didn't get the joke. And then, and I was like, and he was actually upset.
It's like I wanted you to say something real. I was like, dude. It's it's an inside joke.
Everybody knows this, you know. It's like if you're gonna have like a video with a bunch of people
saying all kinds of stuff, you can just throw that in the middle, and then
and then one of them was like, "Yeah, it's true. We could use some joking stuff, some funny stuff.
" But he did. They didn't get it. So I was like, "Oh man, they probably don't remember those times
that we were joking that Hydra fixes that, you know? Hydra fixes that. Hydra fixes that.
" Because we were waiting for Hydra, right? Oh, don't worry, Hydra fixes that. Hydra fixes that,
you know. It's to the point that we just don't even say it anymore. It's like such an old thing,
and I'm like, and then I thought I was like, oh, he just didn't get the joke
because he probably wasn't even around when we were saying that, you know.
So they cut it out of the video. That's funny. I think. Oh my god, so funny!
Because they get they're hired, right? So when you are actually in there,
it's not like somebody's just talking about something, and if it doesn't get fun, is
like it's no skin off their nose because you know it's no big deal because they work somewhere else
or they get paid somewhere else. I was talking about the Hydra team. I was talking about Delta Five.
Yeah, sorry. Oh, oh, Delta Five guys. No, you know, no, no. I love the kids. They were like awesome.
But I was saying they were trying to do this video to get people excited about stuff,
and then I said that the kid was too funny and like you know cheeky and whatever,
and it's like they they just didn't get the joke. I was like, oh. Because we have been waiting for
Hydra forever, we used to say that all the time. But so they lived the whole thing about Hydra
not being fully ready for what they wanted. They built the whole product on it,
and I know that they were struggling with a lot of things with Hydra, right? So, yeah, you know,
but they didn't have the support necessary, and there wasn't answers to some of the questions
they had, and and some of the things that they were currently doing. And then you know,
the development team, the Hydra, the main research team, development team,
they sidestepped question, you know, and I didn't pursue it any further
because I didn't want to seem like an asshole. You know, so you know because I knew internally
that there are some things. Didn't they make a post about it? Didn't they talked about it?
I thought I think I remember one of them saying something about the limitations of Hydra
from the Delta. Yeah, yeah. They they more than likely did, but then the other thing is
you got to walk a tight rope there because you're working directly with the Hydra development team,
you know, and the lead. And if you're also spreading doubt in on X socials or something,
or putting out some sort of medium article, then also creates an internal dilemma. You know,
when you're trying to work. Well, but I think it was because somebody was criticizing something,
and they had to be like, "Well, basically, like it's not our fault. It's the limitation. That's not,
you know." I think it was something like that. And then I think it, yeah. So I know what you mean.
But that's don't you think that's part of the problem that we have here, Park Jong? Yes. No,
we can't talk about anything that we need to fix because it becomes like fud, and it becomes like.
Oh yeah. I I don't know how we solve that at this point, unless you. I'm not sure you do,
because whether you like it or not, we live in a multi-level marketing, you know, world,
and everybody is dependent on everybody else. So no one's going to speak negatively
on particular things where it might affect them or their livelihood, you know,
or anything like that, right? So, you know, like Nicholas talking about you know development
of Laos, you know, and and what they're doing with the IOR, the research team,
and you know his speak. Speaking to and wanting to make sure, you know, along with Kevin Hammond
and others, that the research team continues, and then of course that whole thing that happened,
where Charles had to go to Emergo, have an emergency meeting, and speak to just exactly the dilemma,
you know, and maybe you know some veiled threats as to whether or not they're going to be there,
and it won't be there next year, and this whole thing will fail, and lay us the entire timeline of
it's been on building for the last five, almost six years now, in development
and bringing it across the line will also go away. And I can just imagine the conversation
that happened there for that, you know. But so, yeah, it creates. There's a weird thing here,
where it creates a dilemma, you know, to where you know, like I have to be careful, you know,
with what I say and the tightrope that I'm walking and the people that you know I might be speaking
about, you know. And is it absolutely necessary that I talk to this particular subject, you know,
or speak to maybe where there might be some inherent flaw, you know? And instead, I don't, you know,
and I live in Goldilocks land, you know, with it, and I have to, you know, not bring it up, right?
So. It's weird here in that you just can't speak to some of those things early on. You know,
there is a potential possibility that some of these things get resolved or fixed. You know,
but I just don't see them happening in the timeline that they're expecting to.
And sometimes I just want to think a little bit more like a business and less
like a multi-level marketing crypto venture. You know, and actually speak to things that make sense,
other things that don't. Talk about you know in tough terms as to whether or not this will continue
and needs to be funded or not, and let that particular thing go because.
Hydra has been something that's been talked about for scalability for so long
that it has become like an institution almost. And if it's failing, that would be a huge problem
for Cardano at that point, you know, because Charles put so much time, effort, and words into it.
You know, that would be a problem, right? So instead of funding it or saying anything negative
about it, you know, you'll just let it go, and then you'll hope next year they'll come up
with the solution that they were, you know, the ultimate solution they need in order
for it to scale. Those guys talked about that. In the interview, and said, "Well, as Laos and Paris,
you know, come online, it will scale with it, you know." And I'm like thinking,
shouldn't it work independently? Is the whole point of Hydra was to work independently?
When we talked about it in the beginning, it literally the idea was is like similar to a pop up
shop. So if anybody doesn't know, like a pop up restaurant would take over a pad that was
a restaurant that isn't being utilized, and you have a chef come in and they do a test,
a chef's tasting for a weekend, right? And that's literally a pop up. Right,
so you'd be able to do that. So you'd be able to do that with anything, like any idea that you had,
anything you wanted to do, and you'd be able to just do a pop up of it, and then scale it to,
you know, apparently an infinite level. You know, it would be able to manage it.
Turns out there are some limitations there, and that's not necessarily the case.
It was also relatively fragile. So the heads were relatively fragile. Also,
during the time that you're in there, it's super centralized. So if something were to be lost,
it would be lost forever, which includes people's funds, which made it inherently, you know,
risky to manage all that. Thus, the reason Delta DeFi team had to be so hands on with everything
they were doing in order to make sure that those funds were never lost, because people were putting
real money into this thing and trading in it. You know, so it just never got to the point
where these things were resolved, and I'm not sure the current Hydra team has found a resolution
for that. You know, so can can we really back a minute and just kind of like instead
of I just want to separate the Delta DeFi thing and the Hydra thing. I'm not really talking about
that anymore. Separate between the two. So yeah, I wanna no, it's just like I kind of like wanted to
like enter more like a broader like like aspect of Cardano as an ecosystem issue
with reputational dependence, right? Like like. When the same people are friends, collaborators,
grant applications, voters, hosts, builders, gatekeepers, criticism stops feeling
like you can like like feedback and starts feeling like a threat to someone's livelihood
and like a livelihood and like and social position, right? And we have that problem in Cardano.
It's really, really, really bad right now. So people go in private; they stay quiet in public.
They just react to uh to like become reactionary when when they hear something out in the public.
Like I we used to be very different back in the day. We used to talk about things straightforward,
and it wasn't. And we we saw it as an as a strength because we wanted to be better.
But the more people started like building, and the less money started coming in,
the more dependence on on one another and friendships and and relationships. You know,
you started seeing here and. And people start becoming very afraid of speaking in public.
And then when you did, like I personally, I'm one of those people that like to just talk about
things in the open. That's how I am. My nature is like that. I talk about things in general,
like in my life, personal life, with my friends. I appreciate my best friends are the people
that tell me shit that I don't want to hear. You know, I am that person for my people too, right?
Because you know, we have buses, we have things that other people see that we're too close to it
to see ourselves, right? So. If you want to improve, then you have to be willing to hear things that
you know that you might that might be dissonant to you, or you know it might might threaten
some things. You feel a little bit exposed sometimes, right? And we have lost that block job.
Like I cannot even tell you like how I used to be able to talk about things,
and now I say something, and what I get is people in my DMs reprimanding me, like,
"Why did you say this?" And "La la la," and they don't reply to my posts anymore.
It used to be that we had conversations and posts. And now it's like straight to DMs,
nothing in on the timeline. And then I have like I used to have a lot of quote unquote friends
in this ecosystem that they're not even people that I talk to anymore because if I had said anything
publicly about where they work and they're involved with, it absolutely goes into my DMs.
And I eventually I just stop answering to people. If you go into my DMs instead of
like you know just being able to have a I said something and you just can have a conversation
with me normal. Instead, you go and say, "I am surprised. I can't believe you said this. I can't,
blah, blah, blah. I'm not even going to answer to you. That's that's how I that's how I roll.
Because I I'm not going to get into that, right? I just learn that this is just
how how it's going to go from now on with you, and I I just understand how things work,
and I just leave it at that because I'm not going to get into like discussions like that
and taking things personally, but I also not going to engage into that, right?
That's just I handle it, but. I find that to be a big problem in Cardinal
because we're never gonna get better like that, and we're never gonna like it. It has an end.
There's so much you can just like depend on on this close circles and like this is the cabal jokes
that we have, but it's a cabal of of nothing at the end of the day. If you can't, you know,
let anybody in because unless you because culty, it becomes all this different shit.
You know that that does not does not make it to the outside world because if you have to play
some sort of unspoken rule. You know, if you have to play by those unspoken rules,
then not everybody's going to be willing to play that game. I'm not going to be playing that game.
I personally don't play. No, it's seemingly tiring. I don't play. Seemingly tiring. I don't play it.
There's a reason why I don't collaborate with a lot of people in the synchro system. I don't really.
I gotten in anything other than criminal or coffee because of that, right? Because it all, all,
well, in in my in my you know, Atlanta council team, which I freaking love and adore,
and it was a great working with them, but it's like this values over you know
other stuff because everything else that I gotten into, I I has brought me nothing but like that.
All. You know me better. You shouldn't like oh because I've done things
and and with you guys then I can't say anything or if I've done here with you you know I've gotten
involved with Catalyst I got involved intersect I got involved with everything I got involved with
I end up getting this like you shouldn't speak on us about anything that happens here
and that like I was like what the fuck do you mean you know this is you know this is
how we get better we we should all be talking about our you know shortcomings right
but no it's just you can't so it's just it's really scary like how can you think of a bright future
like that. But I want to say hi to Natty. Very difficult. Natty, good morning, girl.
Nice to see you. Hola, hola, Jenny, Bloodjock, Chad, everyone, Cardano, the Coffee Family.
How are you? We're doing good. I just, I wanted to to make echo of of that last thoughts that
you were having because, I mean, we all came into Cardano because we believe. In in you know
open source technology right, and that anyone can maybe contribute to improve an ecosystem right
and participate. It is difficult because we see because it's an econ an economic system
and and you know the the you know the value and the trading aspects of it.
You know people get very emotional around any decision making or any topic or or any discussion.
That is have that you know people may be having. So I I understand I understand the wanting
to you know to temper temper that or to to manage that. Um, I do think
though that if we improve our communications and our communication channels,
and instead of hiding the things, we just develop. Healthier ways to discuss the things,
more mature ways to keep the stakeholders involved, accountable, and and just educated.
Then eventually we can mature and you know continue to grow and benefit from exactly what
you are saying. I think Cardano became better because many amazing builders,
very very highly intellectual people, got involved. They liked the technology.
And you know we you know went to to the timelines and discuss things and and try to to to make
it better. But you know, seeing like the example of the the Delta a DeFi team,
like this is a very highly capable team. That you know we don't know the reality, right?
I'm just guessing, right? I don't know the team personally or anything.
But you have you have to imagine that this is a team that can that of very a you know this is not
easy to to to build on Cardano. It's never been easy to build on Cardano. That's not a secret.
And these are people that are capable of doing it responsibly, and they are probably not being,
you know, able to to stay around. Maybe they may be may may have to to get a job
or or something to to support right their their lives. So you know, you you you see
this happening all you know often in the in the ecosystem. We we continue to to lose people and.
You know, besides improving our communication channels, we, as an ecosystem,
have to also think about, you know, supporting more and more independent teams
that can take responsibilities. Because if we had more independent teams, you know,
that were capable of solving things, and we supported them and we believed in them,
then maybe many of these things would eventually also get resolved because they need to resolve them
for their own businesses. So anyway, just wanted to share some of my thoughts
and just say hello to Jenny and to thank Jenny, of course, for all her years of of being around
in the community and also the entire Kada Nover Coffee family. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, thank you,
Natty. Um, yeah, I agree with you. But one thing I hear a lot is like,
we need to improve our communication channels. But I, which I do agree, um.
But it's just that has been said so many times and nothing gets done, and it's
like we can't talk about things until we improve. How do we improve our communication channels?
But it's like we're kind of like stuck in that loop, right? Oh, this is not the
you shouldn't talk like this. So for people, it's like it should be behind closed doors that
we talk about these things. But and it is my experience that I usually this is what I do
when I don't when I see something. And what this is, this was my thought process, and this is why,
Lockjaw. By the way, you still here? I hope you are, because this is why.
This is why I push so many people to get involved because this this is the way I work.
When I start seeing something that I don't quite like, I don't see that it's going the way
I wanted to go. I say, let me get let me get more involved so I can get a better picture
of really what's happening, right? Before I form an opinion on something that I'm not very familiar
with, that because usually what you see on the outside is not exactly how it works on the inside.
So I get involved, and that's why I—that's how I adopted a like, like a,
like a my my way into everything. That's why I'm such a volunteer for things in my town, my city,
and and you know, on school and the school system. I volunteer for many years in the school system
in Broward for the school where my you know the the county that my kids were going to school.
So then I can kind of like see how things operated, and then I can from the inside understand it,
land a hand, but at the same time say this is where shit is fucked up, and how we're gonna fix it,
right? But the same in my city. I I I volunteer. I do things, and here in Cardano, same way.
So I got it. I remember saying like, okay, I participated in Catalyst in many ways,
and then eventually it's like there's things I don't like. I have to get involved and see how it is.
So I started like, okay, let me just do some reviewings, so then I can see if there's anything
in the review process that I think that should that could get improved that maybe makes
things better. And then let me just, and then I got into milestones, and then the further I got
into, I started seeing a lot of things that I was very worried and concerned about.
And then you start asking for some things, you know. And then it gets ignored.
And then it gets to a point that you just start talking about it publicly because, you know,
you're just gonna do it. Because what else are you gonna do? At some point,
you just have to like raise some concerns. I was very concerned that we were celebrating
all the money that we were handing out, yet we were making absolutely no report on flaws
and and money that was given out to to you know like all the waste. Where is the waste?
There's definitely waste. There's always waste. Everything we do has to have there's you know
the shortcomings. There's the bad stuff. Why don't we want to talk about it?
It's like people don't want to address that part, and we cannot learn unless we openly address
that part. Hey, we got screwed over by this many projects, and this is what happens.
And we need to solve it. How are we going to solve it? You know, it's like it never happened.
And report after report after report was pretty. Much leaving all that stuff out, right?
So it gets to the point that you know, if you're a taxpayer, you know, or whatever,
you just start getting upset and you start seeing and you start talking about it.
What are you gonna do? It's just kind of like what you're supposed to do.
You're supposed to raise concerns to other people, so other people get their noses in there too
and get experience and say, "What do you think about this?" You know, I got involved in an intersect
and I was like, "What's going on here in intersect?" And I got involved to a certain extent
and then saw my thing and then I started telling people, "You get involved in there
and see what you see, and then we can have a better discussion about what you see on your end,
what I saw, my experience, and my end." But you see that you start working with people,
and people don't like you talking about these things publicly. It's like
because of all the work we do there, and it's just not fair. And it's like I'm also doing work,
and it's not. It's and all of us are doing work, and our money is being used.
It's not fair to anybody here if we don't. It's it's a disservice to not talk about
where we're doing things wrong. So I don't have that relationship with addressing
our our our fuckups. I don't have that. I grew up. My dad will always tell me, Jenny.
One thing is what you do, and one and another thing is what you are. You are not your mistakes.
You are not, you know. Sometimes we do shitty things. Sometimes we act selfishly,
and that doesn't mean you're a selfish person. But if you don't want to see it and learn from it,
you are going to be selfish so many times that you will become what you do. Right. So
if we waste some money here and there, but we refuse to see the waste money,
we will gonna become money wasters, even if that's not our intention. So I see things differently,
right? I like to talk about our shit. Some people just don't; they feel like attacked,
and and I can understand that. But there's gotta be some middle ground, man.
You can't be that you just cannot talk about these things and address these things.
And I feel like we have been stuck in Cardano in that mode for way too long, you know. And I love,
and I I can definitely separate and see all the work and passion and dedication,
all these people that I'm actually they're behind the things that I'm talking about,
and not seeing them as fuckups. It's like this is not working, guys. And I love you,
and I see everything you're doing, and I see everything we're doing. We just need to talk about it,
you know, so we can fix it. And it's just people take it so personally, and it's just like, oh.
And sometimes I feel like we really need therapists to help us guys do this shit. You know, yeah.
I mean, you could use there definitely could be therapy here, no question. I'd say the one,
the one driving, the one main issue that creates a lot of the problems is the fact that.
We don't have an economy outside of what the treasury supports currently.
There are those who are generating revenue that have, you know, DApps that are currently active,
apps that are currently at protocols that are active, you know, but it's limited in scope.
There aren't a lot of users, and so we have a very limited market here for those who are actually
even remotely successful. The rest of everybody else, especially in a bear market,
in order to keep the lights on. And I remember Charles saying this
specifically the last bear market. A lot of what we're doing right now is just to keep the lights
on. You know, we're currently in that phase right now. And there's a lot of people
wondering just exactly you know how long this will last, you know, and
and whether or not we'll continue to keep suffering, and so we'll see, you know,
how long the bear market lasts, you know. But during the time, makes exceedingly difficult
for everybody to think outside of the fact that they just want to make sure that whatever it is
that they've been doing and however that they've been living their life
and it's financially supported by that continues. And then it makes people do
certain things in some cases, just to protect themselves,
that they may not necessarily normally do in daily life, you know, and compromise their principles
slightly, or you know, change how they act with certain people or whatever the case may be,
you know. And it creates just a weird thing. And I'd say, yeah, we probably need need therapy here,
but I'm not sure if it would successfully help anything. You know, so that's the tough part.
You know, it's like Intersect, for example. A great example is Intersect
in the governance structure, right? We're super early with this, and I'm going to say early,
but young is really what we are. And it's relatively new, this whole idea
of decentralized governance in the age of Voltaire here on Cardano. And outside of it being
governance structure, it also has funding through the treasury, right? And which was allotted to it.
You know, the the entire community was allotted, you know, a specific amount
of you know treasury funding in order for this to happen. I think it was 1.8 billion
or something like that, right? So. You know, this is the first time this has ever happened,
and because we don't have any outside revenue sources coming in, or we're not generating revenue
from anything else, it creates a bit of a problem. Intersect currently is trying to make to
where they are self-sustaining and not requiring outside contributions, include
internal contributions which come from the treasury. You know, by creating the whole thing
having to do with proposers, being the admin for them specifically, adding three percent
to every single proposal, adding one percent for the stable. You know, if you want that option.
You know stuff like that, right? And then they're working on other things,
which then would allow them to, you know, do a few more things on the membership side,
surrounding incentives or things that they would actually be able to use
or have an onboarding experience to where a lot of people who maybe financially can't even manage
ten dollars a year or it's exceedingly difficult for them because then it requires
monthly internet access as well. Think about that for a second. For some people, depending on
where they live, it becomes exceedingly expensive. You know, and so they can't manage
or handle that. So it'd be cool to be able to sponsor that as well. You know, so there,
there's so many things there with Intersect, but yet right now we're seeing to
where you know this is a perfect example of the. The the tenor or the the the feel right now
within our ecosystem. TX Pipe currently fifty percent, right around there.
For most of their of the eleven proposals, TX Pipe has five, and they're currently
in the high forties, low fifties, right around there as far as approval.
That means D reps have gone in, each one of them reviewed all of the proposals that are there,
and they specifically earmarked TX Pipe as one of they one of the ones they want to
you know actually support. Yet the MBO is still sitting in the thirties.
Those D reps that looked at it, voted for TX Pipe. Looked at the intersect MBO,
they all say withdrawal at the beginning, right? So it's hard to miss.
And they decided not to vote on the MBL. That is a vote of no confidence, in essence,
from some of the D reps that currently have not voted yet. You know, and so why is that? You know,
where does that come from? You know, we're early or young in our governance structure.
Would you expect you know you know ninety percent you know success on everything
they're doing early on? Would you expect mistakes? You know, early on.
Would you expect Cost overruns or spending on things that were unnecessary. You know, I mean,
these are all things early on that you would expect from something that's brand new. Absolutely,
like you said, Jen. You know, so you know why is it that that's the case? What's the culture there,
and why is that you know actually happening? You know, and so I'm not sure where we go from here
with this particular. I think that one of the biggest problems that I've all that I've seen,
and I want to also recognize Kenrick was here, but I just want to say this real quick.
One of the things that I have always Try to address with my experience and interest.
I've been getting super involved. I was involved in so many working groups. Like,
I actually did stuff through like the governance, you know, parameters working group.
When we we you know worked together to set the original parameters for governance,
and it was a lot of work. And I participated in a lot of other working groups.
I didn't want to do the the Run as a committee member, as I was like doing other things,
but I participated in working groups, like weekly meetings. I had I was like in three working groups
at a time, trying to solve different problems, and they were all like very frustrating
because at the end we were like the only one that actually did something.
It was the governance parameter working group because we worked directly with the,
with you know the technical. You know, steering committee. It was like a direct kind of task force
that we were tasked. We were created for a specific task, so it wasn't like one of those like, oh,
we get together, right, and that's it. So. But I noticed that one of the biggest things
that could be resolved with Intersect is like give value to the members. Like if you're a member,
why are you a member of a of an organization like like Intersect? If it's not to participate in hate
and and help steer things in a certain direction, not just to be in a committee,
that's not the only way you should be able to. And it will be so much simpler if you did simple.
Like if you if you keep running things through your MBO. And how to do certain things, you know.
Hey, for example, we want to do elections. Should we let the community vote
or only the reps vote on this CC election? We want to take on the task of doing CC elections.
Do you guys think that we should allow this or not? You know. And you have a you have
a working group working on this, and they have this. You know, they come they come across
this this problems they have to solve, and if they weren't allowed to. I don't know.
Just just survey the community and get that input from the MBO itself,
and the MBO helps steer those decisions. Then they will have decisions.
They will make decisions that their own members can rally behind. But the problem is
that it gets too much from top down. It's too too too top down decisions for something that is
that is created as with a pers for specific purpose of taking care of this governance issue.
Kind of like help us find agency. And if if it ends up being just top down decisions like that,
then you're gonna lose even your own member base to rally behind what you're doing, and and and you
and the purpose of the MBO is lost. So we're not even using our own members as as intelligence,
right? So Jenny, let me ask you something. We lose a lot of intelligence, like you know, data.
Our our data intelligence is flawed. You know, it's not. Let me ask you something,
because you were you were in the beginning of this, and you were putting a lot of time and effort,
and you got to the point where you almost got the burnout. Because of you know some
of the roadblocks that you ran into and things of that nature, what I noticed is is that there was
this idea. The ideal was is to have a decentralized governance structure. Obviously,
Charles believed that he wanted that to happen, and then they wrote up
or had IO folks that were there develop a constitution, and then you know put that out,
got talked about, marked up, whatever you want to talk you know call it
at the constitutional convention with each delegated representatives that were there.
That we had actually voted for. One of one of the ones we voted for was Logan.
Was the the not the main person, but you know, there at the Austin event, right, that we went to.
So we actually voted for somebody to actually go to this and be a part of it, right?
What I noticed is is that there was like a period of time where there was like
this Goldilocks period where everybody's like, oh, this is going to be amazing,
everything's going to be awesome, and then what happened over a slight period of time is is
that either they realized that too many voices was too chaotic. Or there was an issue
with there seemed to be a sense of control, centralized control within it,
and it was almost permissioned, even though it's supposed to be decentralized governance structure.
And when people pushed too hard, in essence, they either got shut down
or ignored—one of the two—or they just allowed to keep talking, but none of what
they were trying to do or say actually got any traction or any real result, simply
because there was somebody at the top basically kind of dictating just exactly what
would be discussed and wouldn't be discussed, right? And that's where I think we ran into a bunch
of problems. You know, I don't think anybody took into account the fact that there was going to be
a lot of people that are going to be very opinionated about what they would love to see,
and then having to try trying to find consensus amongst all that was going to be
almost insurmountable. And then instead, over a period of time, they just decided, you know what,
this isn't working the way we wanted it to, and we're going to start taking back control
and started isolating information out. Right. So right now, the ISC, we're part
of the steering committee. I'm part of the steering committee, and I don't see board minutes.
You know, I get board minutes later. You know, but it's after the fact, and it's not all of it,
right? Because there's isolated things there, and the reason was because there's no NDA.
We talked about this yesterday. You know, so should there be an NDA? And then there's the pushback
on like, you can't have an NDA because then people can't talk about that publicly. You know,
and they can't. As an ISC member, you should be able to divulge any information at any time
on X socials or wherever it is you want to put out that information right after the meeting, right?
And Because that's why you have things that. I mean, that's how. I mean,
you you you get involved in your city. You know how that works. They go behind closed doors
when they talk about specific things, and everything else is public. You can do the same thing.
They play games like we can't do this shit. But hold on, Nasi has her hand up.
But I do want to say hi to Ken Eric because he came up here, and I haven't said hi to him. Yep.
Absolutely. Oh, and Johnny's here too. I didn't even notice. Sorry, Johnny. What's up, Ken Eric?
Hey, I was about to bill post something. I was not able to speak, but here I am.
Can you guys hear me? Check check, we hear you, pal. Okay, Mike check, Mike check. Good,
oh that's good. How you guys doing? I'm just sitting here in Norway. Got a fresh cup of coffee,
a little bit sugar this afternoon, and a little bit milk. Listening to you, Jenny,
ranting away as usual. That's love everyone to hear. I was about to pick a, you know,
Cardano over coffee, like the, the the love and critique of Cardano on a daily basis.
How are you doing, Jenny? And and how many Labubus do you have now? On any level, what? The boobus,
the boobus, the boobus. Oh my God! I don't. You know, funny thing. I should have a lot,
but I end up giving them away to people that want them more than me. So that's my nature.
I always come across somebody that wants it more, and I'm like, here, you can have it.
I can get myself one later. And now I just don't have any boobus. No, no, Labubu! Wow, wow, wow!
I know. No, you know what? They gave me for my birthday. Yeah, you need a Labubu.
The only way I can I can keep a Labubu is somebody else buys it for me. But if I buy it for myself
and somebody wants it, I end up giving it away. Okay, DM me your address.
I will send you a Labubu instantly before my dog eats the last one in the house here. I love it.
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well, well. Um. So I think it's the second time I come up here to attend.
You know, um. Jenny going away party, but I want to say something that I forgot to say last time,
and that is amongst my Cardano core memory, Jenny pops up repeatedly, and and if it was
if it was like a Cardano how can we say it Cardano passion award to give out on Cardano summit,
you Jenny definitely would get it. You were top ranking member there, and and and I always remember
how like so you you can have people who are engaged, but I never see Jenny engaged.
I see her passionately and engaged both at the two times, whatever tasks you are moving on.
And yeah, I I remember like the last like really really serious talk we had.
Jenny was during beyond minimum viable governance report where. Where you had, how can I put it,
some some correct and correct input values, and and I I'm happy that I actually were
able to put some of that into the report. Let's, but I had to let's say moderate the, how can I say,
I had I had to use a different intonation. But it got yeah. We had an interview, so it was funny.
We had like an interview for the for that report, and I was like he says passionate. Yeah, yeah,
and and and and for the record, for the record, so so the report is out and everything.
But on the table to the hard fork working group now and the ledger team,
they are looking into CIP one fifty one and CIP one eighty one, and that is. Based on you,
of course, amongst others who also had raised their voices in this.
And now I'm not going to say much, but I still keep that conversation in the back of my head, Jenny.
And I'm going to propose some other changes, drastically changes, in the foreseeable future.
Just give me some time. I appreciate all the work that you put in, Eric.
You are also very passionate and dedicated, and you get things done. So I love that.
And you have an open mind, and he has an open mind. I love that. Love it.
Thank you so much for your words. Let's see, Natty, you have your hand up. What's up?
I wanted to comment a little bit about intercept, but before that, I wanted to mention that with
with Archela with Hise, she and I like, of course, we stay on touch of of all Cardano things, even
though we are the kind of people that don't go to this, you know, timeline to to vent
or anything like that. But we we keep saying that for this era of of governance, the Voltaire era,
I will 100% feel confident that we will have a great cabinet with Jenny as as the Cardano president
and the Atlantic Council as as as her representatives. And it's 100%. You know,
I 100% believe that because you, you, your team, the Latin Council team, was very diverse,
and it demo, it sort of demonstrated the best aspects of Cardano in, in our opinion, in my,
my opinion, and we, we talk about this a lot. So yeah, I just wanted to to say that that if for me,
I I would be very confident in some in an arrangement like that for for
the next year of of Cardano governance, way above whatever Intersect has done in the past two years
with all their budgets and and and and whatnot and and and you know I just again back
to communications because. To me, what the the the biggest problems in the ecosystem,
I think it's they stem out of that. Um, you know, again, I gotta I gotta point out Intersect
because I did have a a year of experience in Intersect, and and you know,
we also participated in the in the Constitution and and all the all everything that was in scope
and out of scope. Um, and and again, if you're doing anything, you can do anything, right?
You can try everything. Just be honest about what you're doing, and and to me,
what that marks what a good leader is. You gotta be honest. Hey, this is the stage of
where we are as an ecosystem, and this is what we plan to do. This is how we we plan to do it for
the next six months. These are the things that we're gonna be trying,
and and then people can follow you, you know. Then people can support you.
But if you're not honest into what You are trying to accomplish, or worse,
which is what I personally diagnostic have diagnosed of. In terms of the problem,
is that they don't have the basics done. They don't know what their vision, mission is.
They're lacking procedures. They lack in a proper system of a good feedback loop of having
good feedback loop between them, their memberships, and the global community. And again,
onto onto just establish a proper system, one that works, than one that can filter the noise
because. You know the problem is real. The problem of you not being able to talk openly
on the timeline because people will attack you, or or you know you as a builder you have to have
a system where you can listen and filter what works and what doesn't
because obviously not everything is going to make sense and and sometimes there are things
that will make sense but you're just not there yet. Your capabilities,
your you you don't have the funding, you don't have you know the the the team to accomplish X Y C,
you know so you're not there yet so you cannot. You know, accomplish something that
that people want. Yet, but again, if you're honest and you have that system in place,
then you you you can address those things. So, anyway, I just wanted to share that. Yeah,
I love that. But what was your experience like? An intersection, for example, go into the channels,
right? You will say the proper channels, and then you go in there and try talking in those chats
for those committees, and nobody will answer to you. And they will go unanswered.
And and then you're like, why is like this this information not making it to?
Why do you have a Twitter account or the next account if you don't use it to post the information
of your minutes out on a regular basis so people can be involved? And then it's like, oh,
the problem is that you don't go to the meetings, and if you don't go to the meetings,
you can't complain. So it's just like this loop, right? It's like there's some things that's
just so easy to fix. That then you start seeing, like you know, conspiracy theories
that people start saying. If they don't want it to work, don't they want them fixed? Ah ha! Exactly.
Thank you for saying it. And then once you see that, once you see that, you are like, oh, okay,
you know. And then you, in some cases, you feel like I am just asking obvious questions.
And apparently they've been asked before, and they've just really been ignored for whatever reason,
you know, because they don't want that particular thing. In some cases,
like I'll use the example of, you know, the take and run feature
within our treasury treasury structure right now. So you have an intersect as MBO as an admin,
and that is supplying administrative services to those who are interested in doing that.
And then you have individual private admins that are part of it, like say what Amaro is doing,
right? Where you know there's an individual admin for them, or Blink Labs,
or what Michaela did with Pebble, stuff like that. So each one of them has an individual admin.
You know, the issue is is that no matter which one you're using, there's a take
and run feature there. And I say it is a feature. Is it a feature or is it a bug?
The joke that we have here. You know, the issue is is that constitutionally.
The way the Constitution is currently written, there is no strict control around vetting process
for admins. People who are part of the admin process, you know, that are in essence
supposed to be the audible, verifiable, you know, reliable, you know, administrator, you know,
with a three-person or a five-person multisig, and then that then is supposed to be the
where they don't allow any take and run of any sort. And it turns out that's not the case.
And when I asked about it, it it turns out that also the Constitution doesn't require it. You know,
and so at that point, it's like it's a constitutional level change of something that
I would have thought in the beginning when the Constitution was written.
This would have definitely been a topic of conversation amongst a lot of people that I would imagine
are a lot out of scope. Out of scope, me? It's not out of scope. Well, yeah, it's out of scope,
right? So the thing is, is that why wouldn't that be a part of that, right?
And it's because they don't want that in there because, in essence, it's a permissionless society.
We should be able to do what we want. That's the whole point. We started this whole thing,
but when I then say, does permissionless mean reckless? Does permissionless mean irresponsible?
Does permissionless mean that we just allow this to have this single point of failure that
anybody could, through a popularity contest, you know, get this whole thing approved for
one hundred fifty million eight or whatever it is, have an admin that they've approved as
being their admin, and then once they get the funding, it's basically a free for all after that.
You know, we don't know. We're just relying on them to be responsible.
It's the whole permissionless thing gets used so widely, like applies to everything.
It's like an excuse, like. There's been a lot of things too. Yeah, it's crazy, and it's funny.
Orito said the whole like out of scope, dude. That joke for those who get it, get it,
and those who don't, don't. And one time he said that shit and pissed off Charles so badly,
and Charles did not get the joke. And he thought that do you remember that
or he thought I think it was very recent. And he said like that's out of scope.
And he was just so mad. He was like, I was like, oh no, Charles, you're not getting the joke.
Oh my god, I think he kicked them. I think he kicked them out of the space and everything.
And so then ask yourself why that is, right? Because that's like the most critical thing
you could possibly imagine. If that and he blocked me. Oh my God, Arito! From that day, that joke.
Oh my God! How does that cascade down to everything else that we do? You know,
because I found myself going, "Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense,
" and I'm in a meeting with everybody else, including all the people that were originally part
of this from from the beginning. You know, the whole Arisco came from like the the Natty
just spoke on that as well. Like when we were doing all the governance talks.
We wanted to talk about things. We had the workshops, and we wanted to address some things
that mattered to us. And it was like, no, that's out of scope, and only we could only focus on
the things that that we were allowed to focus on, and it was very restricted.
And And that's such an important topic, and that we wanted to address so many things,
but everything was out of scope, so it became a joke. And anybody who participated in
those workshops get the joke, and it's like funny how. Charles missed the joke.
Like he didn't participate in the workshop. It's annoying when you hear it. It's like it.
Like to me, it's like I can't even laugh about it because it's something that's
exceedingly frustrating to me. And if it's at that level, with the probably the most important thing
we can think about when it comes to structure, if we can't resolve that,
and it wasn't actually put in, it wasn't identified the beginning. Why wasn't it identified? One
and two. Now that it's been identified, why would it be such a struggle to get it approved?
You know that to me is a is a real that's a major issue for us, but that's a culture thing too.
That is our culture that we have. The culture is what you cultivate, right? That cultivation,
the culture, it all comes from the same word, right? So at the end of the day,
we can cultivate the culture that we want, and if we want to have better channels,
we have to create those channels. If we want to be able to talk about things,
and we have to find a way to do it, and that I guess at the end of the day,
that should be the actionable, you know, item after a conversation like this is.
What are we going to do to solve that problem for ourselves? Because if we want agency,
if we want to be, you know, responsible for our own ecosystem, we have to solve that problem, right?
So I get it. I mean, I I have actually like felt like I can't say anything anymore because,
like I said, and it's like hurting the people that I've friends that I made here.
I made a lot of friends in this ecosystem that just because I say something now,
they take it to heart, and you can tell how they distance themselves from you
because you spoke about something and they felt attacked. And it's like I don't want that to happen.
I don't want to hurt the people that I love and the friendships that I made here,
or destroy what they built. But at the same time, I want to be able to speak. So
how do I find that happy medium? And what can we do to kind of like reach some sort of I don't know,
like compromise that we can still be able to express ourselves, and you know,
also make sure that we're not I mean, that we're being mindful on how we do it or where we do it,
but it can't just be that you just take it to the back channels. That absolutely cannot be
the solution, guys. It has to be somewhere in the middle. I don't know.
We just have to find a better way to do it. I agree, but we have to do it,
and we have to do it because it's for the sake of our community. If we want to improve
our community, we have to be able to talk about shortcomings. And we have to be able to have
the courage to have the impasse and to solve it, right? Like, like you said,
if you find yourself with an impasse, and you know, I tell you, Block Chuck, you're here. You
and I sometimes just like get into it, and then you know, at the end of the day,
it's the compromise of of the that that I have with my friendship that I have with you.
That I'm like, I have to find a way to like a Not let that be it, right? So we'll just like, hey,
I'll send you a message after, or I do something. Make sure you, you know,
how much I care about you, even if we just, you know, came across some crazy thing.
And I say this publicly because a lot of times it's gonna happen over coffee. Here we're just like,
ah, and sounds like in some weird moment, right? But at the end of the day,
what matters to me is I don't want to, I don't want that to destroy something that I
that that matters to me at the end of the day, right? So slowly but surely, you start learning
how to communicate better with the people that you love, the people that you care about.
And we have to kind of find a way to do that in the ecosystem too, because it can't be
that if you speak about the things that concern you, you just become what they call now
the orbiters. I hate that. I hate the whole orbiters thing, you know,
because you're basically alienating people—people that have like frustrations,
and there might be legit frustrations—and and and then if you try to speak about it,
it happens really fast. Notice how it happens really fast. If you're a supporter of the ecosystem,
you have dedicated years to the ecosystem, and God forbid, you start having like this moment
of frustration that you can't speak about something because people start saying that you're funny,
shut up, or you you spoke about something you pissed off the wrong person.
Everybody comes after you so quickly that you can turn the most like dedicated person into what
you know you label them as an arbiter, and and that's it. Like this is like like you become a you
you get that person to become an enemy. And you just can't do that, guys. Like lately,
I've noticed that just we've done a lot of that, and I just don't think it's necessary. People have
legit concerns, and and because of the lack of channels and the lack of being able to speak about
them without being labeled, or it's either like keep it to yourself, or if you say it,
then you're gonna become, you know, a problem. We're not we're not heading in the right direction
that way, guys. I'm just saying, you know, this we have to be we have to
we have to take responsibility for that, right? I don't want to name names, but you know,
it it happens really quickly that you get somebody that loves the ecosystem, and two weeks later
they're like, "I hate this place, and you guys so suck, and this is a fucking cult,
" because you go from being loved and cared for to being, you know, treated as trash and like,
you know, an orbiter that they literally put you on a label like that, like you know.
It's it's crazy. We it's it's very. Should I put that on my Should I put that on my profile?
Should I say I'm an orbiter? Because I never heard anyone use that word. That's a back channel word.
Yes. No, it's not back channel. Because they're like just leave. That's what they say.
Leave instead of staying here and talking about it. Because if you don't like it,
you should just leave. And if you stick around, if you stick around and you say something,
and you express your frustrations on a post, that means you're orbiting around instead
of just leaving. They want you to leave forever and never come back. And that's just like
really harsh. Like you know. Yeah, it makes people want to like grow their frustration even bigger,
bigger and bigger, right? So, what's up, Simon? Hey. Yeah, I don't know. I've never heard
that Orbiter thing you're talking about, but I can I can understand that that's frustrating.
Especially, I mean, there's people who are on the other hand constantly, you know,
talking bad about things, constantly having negative views, and you don't want to be thrown into
that bucket. Well, so you shouldn't have buckets. Sometimes it's like,
why is somebody that used to talk about this ecosystem highly for years constantly,
and now is frustrated not being taken ah seriously? Why is is is this person only allowed to say
bullish things and good things? I think that's very toxic too. And then
if people just don't welcome that, then that's just gonna make person feel more and more into it.
So just it kind of like feeds itself. You know what I mean? It's like.
Once you enter that territory, once if you have if you if you're really at it
and you have like you're frustrated and you start speaking about it,
and then people just start reacting to it, and then the more shit they say to you, the more.
You say back that it just kind of it's almost like you create a monster.
Like we as a community create the monster. We don't realize it. Like if if someone
if if someone's like coming after you negatively, you just you
can't just not you can you can't engage. Like oftentimes, I I mean maybe some of you know I I had
this problem with Shaggy. Shaggy was like, ah, it's just insane. Like the things he posted about me
and about others. But I'm sure there's others like that, and I think we're all.
A lot of people in this room have been affected, so right, and and so also I want to say like,
especially with you. I mean, you know who you are. People that you know come on the show didn't know
who you are, so I I wouldn't worry about about that too much if I were you, for example.
I I know I have my my crowd, you know, that um, well, yeah, I have I have my crowd like.
A new man who's listening in here. Like, if he says something, of course I'm gonna take him
seriously. But if you know, if whoever says like I'm, I'm constantly negative.
Like they don't know me. I see. I see what you mean. Yeah, I know. Most people don't know people
in here for the most part, unless you've met them and been in you know public spaces with them
and got to know them. We don't have the opportunity to really have that on a regular basis,
where I had in the past. Where you know, as part of an anonymous, I'm still a part
of an anonymous organization, and I had like. Really,
like at least a thousand to fifteen hundred friends that I would see on probably
at least once every two to three months and more or more, you know. And that's a lot of people
when you think about it, you know. And of those, about fifteen or twenty were really good friends
that we would do things on a regular basis, you know. And we don't do that here.
You know that that is the the one issue with you know the way this thing works and working remotely
and getting to see people. We just don't have those particular relationships where we build
those bonds that we would normally build when we're around each other socially
and doing things together. You know so. I struggle to find how this exactly would ever work,
you know. And and we have a pseudo version of it here, you know, with people who work in
working groups together and a part of intersect or commit their time and energy to something
or whatever the case may be, where they're working independently with people and stuff like that,
you know. But ultimately, it's never really a replacement for you know being one-on-one with people
and getting to know them, you know. So you know, trust level. People understanding
or misunderstanding when you make an X statement, when you type something out,
it can be inferred in like 15 different ways, and people take it the wrong way. And then I go, no,
no, no, that's not what I meant. But you know, they didn't know that because they don't hear
any inflection in my voice, no tone, whether I'm joking or not. You know,
there's none of that within it. It's the most, it's the worst. Form of communication,
and I feel personally, is slowly destroying our normal relationships that we would usually have
when we're actually close to each other or around each other. You know,
so how does that get replaced? I'm not really sure. You know, but you know,
this is one of the inherent issues with how we communicate and work with each other here. Yeah,
well, actually, that that's like I want to. I just want to say that that is why I was always
like a really big fan of the summit and the events. Like I've always felt this is exactly
why we need all these events, and this is like. You can't put a number on that, and people are like,
"Oh, it's so much money to create this event for you know a privileged view." Well, I mean,
it's it's important that the people have a chance to meet each other to build those relationships,
and it's yeah. I mean, of course they they cost money. Yeah, what can you do?
The world is works like that, but I got a perfect example of that. So in forty five B,
I see your hand up. So sorry, but I was at the day zero at the Berlin summit.
And we're in there talking about what the Delta DeFi guys were coming up with, along with Murasaki,
in order to talk about the multi asset treasury. And then we broke off into two groups.
One was more the business side where I went to, and then the other side was the technical side
of that and what would it mean, right? So we broke off into two groups,
and I went over in one group, and I was in with Murasaki. There's a picture of me.
I've never met Mirasaki. I've heard about him. I heard him in different, you know, groups
and stuff like that. You know, that I wasn't a part of and what have you.
But I never got to interact or work with him in any way. And I found
I was literally standing right next to him, and we were all talking amongst each other there
about the business side of the multi asset treasury. And we found ourselves both almost completing
each other's sentences in some cases. You know, surrounding some of the things the way we felt
and what we thought, right? I would have never got that experience otherwise. You know,
and so you're absolutely right. These things are exceedingly important,
and you would never get those interactions otherwise. You know, and from there, me
and Murasaki then develop a relationship, and we were speaking back and forth to each other in DMs
after that. That, right? Where we didn't have that before, you know, and and that was actually one
of my first relationships. That really, for the most part, more personal relationship with somebody
that actually worked at Emergo. You know, I know Nathan and Nathaniel Acton,
and there's a few others that I met, you know, but there's really no real, you know,
business relationship there with Emergo at all, which is weird because I'm a BD lead for USDM,
stablecoin that operates here, and they're a founding member, which is also kind of odd.
I always felt that weird that we didn't have those relationships or. Discussions
and mostly is because they just weren't reaching out. You know, we're on the other side
where people found CF to be like this ridiculously cumbersome, you know, ineffective thing,
and yet I had more business relationships and business with them, Pierre and others.
And getting business from them than I ever did with Amergo, you know. And so my perspective
on it was entirely different. Everybody's public perspective of it. Why was that?
And it's because most people on X were just speaking out the side of their neck about things
they didn't know or understand, and just to either parrot what other people are saying
or say something other that's negative about CFI. Why? Because there were people above them
that they respected. Well, they're told. They're told. They're told that I want to. I do definitely.
You know, forty-five B. Yeah. Let's go. Yeah. Go for it. Yep. Ah, yeah. Hi everyone. Yeah.
I got to jump by the way. Sorry, guys. Later. See ya. Maybe I can start by saying. All the best,
Jenny, and I hope to see you here every time, all the time, especially in a different format
of Jenny, let's say, where you're not so concerned with with all the bureaucratics
of hosting things, which I know can be daunting and can distract you a lot.
So I was coming up on when you talked about orbiters. I never heard the expression.
Funny that you guys haven't heard it. Oh my god, this is so funny. Okay,
when you when you're hearing, no, it's just people. People say it. People say it,
but maybe you haven't. Yeah. When you hear, when you see it now, you're gonna be like, oh,
that's a genius. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, it makes perfect sense. But, but like,
I think I basically came up at the same time as Simon, and I was thinking mostly the same thing.
I think he was saying where there are some people like the guy from the the generative arts,
you know, the the Alex. Oh, Marlon. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I met a guy.
We were hanging out in Lisbon several times and and having drinks, talking Cardano. Nowadays,
I just. I take it with a huge grain of salt, you know. So, so I wanted what
I wanted to contribute is like I've been around in so many different spaces.
I started with Catalyst Town Halls. I I was I don't know in Intersect as well in a number
of committees. I was chair of a committee, and I feel the pain. And I was also trying to work on
the community hubs thing with that whole like circus, let's say. Yeah, I was there. I remember.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I want to say is like. What I want for Cardano is that we continue.
And I know this sounds cliche, and it's like recycling or reinventing the wheel.
But I really think it's the way through. It's like one comeback that you get on on Discord
does not speak for Cardano. If someone's criticizing you, if someone has the opposite opinion,
you need to live with it. It's no, it's welcome to reality, and and.
You need to continue making Cardano what you think it can be, and rotate across different spaces,
host your own spaces, find spaces where you do fit in, where you can be productive,
where you find peers, and most importantly, because we're all influencing each other,
and just by voicing flaws, like you were talking about catalyst, I feel that a lot as well.
But just by talking about it. You know we're we're enticing people to act on it,
but what's really really important is when you do find peers and act on it,
build an alternative tool. There's a guy building a crowdfunding thing now on Cardano.
There's a lot that can be done, and so yeah, that that's my my comeback to the diversity of opinions
and the the how hard it is to collaborate. I'm sort of over Intersect because I was in there
and from day one, and now I, but I still go to a number of committees because I'm finding people
there that are, you know, I'm not allergic to being in an Intersect committee
as a moderated observer or whatever because I'm finding people in there that I can collaborate with,
and I don't think I'm poaching anyone. We're all in Cardano, so that that's it. Sorry,
I didn't mean to go in a small rant, but. I just wanted to also say I really think
that we are losing a lot by not having catalyst for for a while, and I I've been feeling a lot
of homesickness if that translates about the Cardano that I joined back in twenty in
twenty twenty two where we had Cardano for Climate, we had Gimbalas, we had
so many different communities, and it was all about grassroots. And I I'm not sure if it's
the small catalyst funding that we're Letting those people on, or whatever, what we're missing now,
but we are cryptifying Cardano so much more and making it so much more bureaucratic nowadays.
So I really feel like we need to fund more. Once I was in a. I think it was
the product committee call, and I said I have a proposal, like it was on the budget cycle last year,
to just do grassroots in touch and get people communicating across the world.
And someone from that committee literally told me, "Oh, we don't need to fund
more people in Zoom calls. We need to fund real events." And so that was completely discarded.
But you know, that's his view. So I'm going to continue to try to host things
and and you know find people to collaborate with. Sorry, I didn't mean to rant so much. No,
that was great. I love that. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that you still go there and kind of like,
like you said, not poaching, but it's kind of like what we used to do in Catalyst Downhole.
We had the after, the the after rooms that were really cool for for like finding
people to collaborate with. That was like one of my favorite things. Since the after tunnels, um,
definitely miss that. So I'm with you. I'm with you. I gotta find those places.
And I guess you know, I just yeah. I don't want to. I took a break. Too much,
but I did drop mine on the the chat, and yeah, we're hosting it the top of the epoch thing
tomorrow morning. It's going to be the middle of epoch 643, and come by if you want to banter.
We're probably going to have Juntama there. He was just sharing something very like like deep
about governance, so maybe we'll have him there. We've been finding every epoch, we find
different people, and we're trying to network them together in different formats as well. Yeah,
give it a follow and try to make it to to to the spaces. It's a little weird time for me, but um,
I love that you're covering a different time zone as well. Um, I did want to like remind people.
I I pinned up some stuff at the top. The first one is just a little note from Marek from
Black Frost. If you want to read it, I highly encourage you to do so. The second post is our Space
for Friday, so you don't mind resharing that, retweeting that, however you would like to call it.
Just trying to get more people in here. As we're going to have Realfy joining us,
and want to explore more about what brings to Cardano. And we'll appreciate if you share that space.
And then the third post is Mike Horn and reminding you that you have to update your node
because starting July eighteenth, if you don't update, your node will stall.
And there's twenty seven percent SPOs that are still not updated. So three more days.
Please tell your SPO, ask them, did you update? See what's going on. So that's that. And Simon,
what's up? Yeah, just just wanted to say. That I totally agree with with Lucas. There, this is.
I mean, I would I would love to to have the town hall back and after town hall and talk with people.
That was really a great time for Cardano. Especially because there were people that were
ready to work and collaborate, and and it's like such a different energy. I mean, I love spaces.
I love talking to people, but not everybody that comes to spaces are. Are in that mode,
but people I go to catalysts are just like in that build mode, right? They're just
like they want to do something, so it's really really cool to find people in that same kind
of mindset, right? I like that about it. Yeah, and and also like people, obviously,
sometimes people had the same ideas and they would find each other there, or they had the same ideas
but like slightly different, so they they would kind of. You'd kind of see
that they are gonna be competitors, right? But they would still be, you know, friendly and and even,
you know, try at least try to find some some similarities, some things
where they can help each other or like, yeah, it was it was very collaborative. Yeah,
like even find like like the standards, right? Like, okay, we're gonna do it differently,
but what can we agree on that this should this is kind of like similar, right? And and fine,
I love that. Exactly what you just said. Yeah. But there there was also different profiles.
You know, you could tell some people were coming a bit too much from traditional business
or from other crypto spaces where they're just leeching every funding they can get. So it's it.
Oh my God! Yes. Antibodies on you as well. You know, there were some guys that were so
you know pleasing everyone and trying to be in every conversation, and that I think is is.
Helps you grow. Yes, you do. It's so funny. Yeah, you do learn a lot from that as well.
It's like the ones are like, yeah, but come on, like Juan Sierra with his Sala de Café.
He was there even with no. I mean, I I just love that place. It was it was really awesome.
Good times. I hope we get something like that back. Right. So one thing. Product committee call.
So one thing. One thing I wanted to say was actually I think intersect.
I would like to see more people get behind intersect. I think
that that is kind of what intersect was supposed to be. I mean, even the name, right?
It says it intersects. Yeah, but it doesn't work like that. There were people rallying behind
intersect, and it's just almost like the people were not. There's no space for people
unless you became like a committee or they people. It was very chaotic, dude. I have to say, like,
but we need to make the space. It's it was the same. We tried. We tried. Like, I was in a,
I was in a, in another work working group that we tried to like. Better the experience
in this court, so we can help get people more engaged and motivated, and newcomers to to find
their way. And it was completely trashed. They're like, "There's nothing to fix.
Everything's perfect. Get out of our way." Basically, I mean, it was you know, it wasn't. But then,
if it's not intersect, what is it? Like, I don't think we have anything else that has attraction.
I'm with you. I. I'm with you. I'm, I'm, I'm still not completely, but like, I mean,
I have a meeting with Jack tomorrow. That's I still care, you know. I'll share my thoughts.
I wish them the best. I, I love them. I just don't know what to tell you. I'll just go, go show up
and remind them of some things, and you know, just I don't know. Yeah, that's what I'm doing here.
I mean, I get it. A lot of people are. I feel like a lot of people are kind of disillusioned
with intersect, and, um, especially, I'm, I'm still a bit, um. A bit mad about this, but
about a year ago when Charles went on the base and he was like, "Well,
Intersect should not facilitate the the whole treasury." I feel feel like he did a lot
of damage there. Like, I feel like people kind of kind of stopped rallying behind Intersect
at that point. There's a lot of damage done there for sure during the the budget process last year.
Oof, yeah. So I I was like, okay, I'm not taking a setback. I don't want to be like
criticizing Intersect because I definitely don't want Intersect to not exist.
So what I started doing is like I'm gonna take a step back and not participate myself,
so I don't get more frustrated because I was heavily like involved and frustrated,
and I just didn't know what else to do. So I started empowering other people to participate.
So I was like, maybe they just don't need me; they need other people.
So I just started bullying everybody to join. And also, the budgeting process always changed, right?
That was oh god, that was a lot of. And I was doing spaces for them. Okay,
I was doing spaces for them, and I was in charge of educating people and making intersect more.
You know, like. Accessible, literally, and every day I will prepare my ass off for those spaces,
and everything will change last minute, and then I will give them the information, and the next day
will be something else, and people will be like, "You told me this, and you told me that,
and now it's not that." It was horrible. Right, right. But but we need to get back there.
We need to, or at least that is my opinion. I think we need to get back in,
get intersect back on track, and we need to rally behind intersect and have intersect be this space.
For governance, where the community can meet and do governance, and then
but then they have like different websites. They have like the one with the knowledge base that has
different information than the one with the committees. Some of of the information
does not match the other, and then and it's just like all these different places.
It's very confusing. It's not straightforward, and the participation from community members is
very limited. And I think that if that were to change, and there's like more opportunity
for real value, what is the value as a Cardano community member joining Intersect?
What would you find valuable in joining to be able to participate? But if the only way is to be
a committee chair. It's ridiculous. That's just like not everybody wants to to to do that.
It's ridiculous because they don't have any power, right? That that's what what what really happened
when Charles went on that space. He basically said the committees they shouldn't have any power.
Yeah, second. That's a that's a very important point. Sorry, I'm not sure.
I think I saw Orito with his hand up. I don't want him. Oh, I don't see his hand up. I'm sorry,
Orito. Do you have your hand up? Oh no no! I just kind of got the vibe that the space may be winding
down. I realize you're in overtime. I didn't want to change the topic though. However,
there is another space hosting Pi Lanningham. The Atrium Labs account is is hosting
Pi Lanningham Quantumlation. And by the way, I checked out his timeline,
and he's looking for some artists. So if any of you guys are artists, I think he needs some art
for whatever they're putting together over there. But no, I wasn't. I was not trying to change
the the topic. I just I got the feeling maybe you might be winded down,
and I was I was trying to say. Oh, perfect! That's great. No, appreciate it. Let people know.
That's what. Thanks. That's that's what we're here for. And Natty or Forty Five B,
did you want to say something? Yeah, just just a quick quick note on on Simon.
I sympathize with with like let's take back intersect and and your argument
about them having been taken authority, um, you know. I just keep coming back to the ecosystem is
very vast. There's a lot of people. There, like I said four years ago,
there was tons of people running their own communities, and you would go in,
you would see how it works. It's Intersect is just a group of people,
and they were hired to do that. They have their jobs or something, and they have their hands tied in
in so many ways, like you're pointing out. And I feel like we shouldn't just like try to make
it work at all cost. We should have alternatives. That's that's my my point of view.
We should have alternatives, yes, but I think if we're going to have intersect,
might as well just help it get better. And because if we just have a like a halfway
cooked something, then it's it's like we don't have a complete thing, you know.
Their place is to be the town hall of of Cardano, and their they the in their places,
like I was saying here yesterday or something, they need to allow everyone to talk,
and they need to be the town hall for Cardano and all that. But for example,
them having all the committees, where a number of them are not. Even doing so well or something,
I'm not sure if some of those can be the core functionality of Intersect. For me,
would be maintaining the repos and doing the open source committee and technical steering committee
and little more. And and the reason I maybe am am sort of quitting on them is that, like I said,
it's a group of people. They see it their way. Their approach was Discord like this,
documentation like that, meetings like that, and you're not going to change all that
unless you change the whole team. So. What's happening, Nati? Thanks. Yes, I also wanted to.
Actually, I agree with with 45B. The thing is that, to me, so to me, Intersex has always been
very important in the ecosystem. That's why I joined. That's why I donated way too much of my time
to the process, and I was there with with Simon, right? So he knows that that I'm I'm.
We went through the same stuff. I was. I think it's important the work that they do,
that they're doing. I think it's important that they continue to do it,
and at least we have someone dedicated in the ecosystem to try to make it work.
I don't feel comfortable after my experience there to trust that they're gonna get it right
because it's been two years and there's no important direction coming from them. They have fixed.
It doesn't seem like they have fixed much. I know it must be a very difficult job,
and I have to get this out there. There are a lot of egos in the ecosystem,
and that is very hard to manage on top of all the complexities that that exist in blockchain.
So I understand that the job is not—it must not be easy at all. But I think there's very there's not
a good direction there. And and the first that's the first thing that you need to fix.
What is your script, right? If you're gonna make a movie, what is the script? What is your mission?
What is your vision specifically? And what is the process that the community can count on
that that will get them, you know, whatever is the goal there. So whatever is the mission there.
And just the fact that it's been two years and that hasn't been defined yet
and They are going more around how do we make this sustainable? How do we make sure we manage
the treasury? Right? There are other priorities that doesn't seem really how do we make
governance fair? How do we make governance inclusive? How you know? How do we grow as an ecosystem?
How do we support the growth of the ecosystem? So again, it's fine. What whatever your mission
and vision is, and and whatever your direction, whatever however you're going to evolve as
an entity, it's going to be fine. But you need to define it, and you need to
constantly communicate it. If something changes, you need to again be a leader and say, Hey,
this is our direction. This is what we plan to do in the next year, and that is not happening.
And the ecosystem is worse because that is not happening. And I strongly believe that. But before I,
you know, close that thought on intercept, because I know I'm very, I'm being very critical
with love, with love. I also need to tell everyone that I didn't came to Cardano because I believe
we needed to form a new government to save, you know, a perfect government that will be
able to save everyone. And I don't believe that any government has the the human capacity, you know,
to serve everyone fairly. So, because I I don't I believe that that is an impossible job.
I wouldn't want it. I wouldn't want to pin that job solely solely into one entity.
So this is where I sort of have a you know are aligned with what 45B said
that we need you know to support more people trying to you know take on different jobs.
And and fund them so they have the tools to make it possible because again nothing can get done
if we if we don't have the funds to to actually pay people to do the work that is required to
in order to accomplish stuff. So yeah, I wanted to get that out there. Love it.
I just think that I agree with all of that, but I think it is the intention of Intersect that are at
least what they wanted to do is to end up focusing on the things their their their strengths are
and having and supporting other. Kind of NBOs, they handle some of the stuff that
maybe they don't do so well. But the thing is that if they don't come out,
they're kind of like carrying this by default. And as we can see, we like to be decentralized,
but we have a problem with wanting to own the responsibility of the stuff, right? So we can say,
yeah, we have to support other NBOs, but where are they? Like if we had an NBO that said
we're forming and we want to form an NBO to handle marketing and communications side of Cardano,
I probably. I could see maybe intersect supporting something like that because I don't think
they want to be at all the whole thing. I think that they're trying to find a way to be sustainable,
and that's what they're kind of focusing on. Some things that they can see that they can do right,
and kind of hoping other people take on other stuff. They're being neglected,
and they're just keeping them just because if they say if you don't do it, we're not going to do it,
then they're just not going to be done. Just like we can see, we can see
that in our governance right now, right? Like. It says it's a hard one, so I agree.
I agree with both of you. I always thought that we need multiple MBOs, but the things,
the thing is that they don't form. So we need them, and maybe not, and maybe not MBOs, by the way.
Maybe just companies, and this is this is where I'm coming from, where we need to support
more teams because right now, you know, there are people with specialties in DeFi, for example,
that want to, you know, you know, get ahead for their own company. So you know,
their companies are Cardano companies. And they want to get ahead, and if they do get ahead,
then they'll have the resources to help out and grow the ecosystem as well. So this is also
where where where I'm coming from, because we are observing
that you know not you know there's no much support only for the you know main entities.
Simon, did you have your hand up, or was that me? No, no. Um. Yeah. So. Hmm. Yeah, I don't know.
I feel like intersects. Intersect should be at least now, right? Because we only have
finite resources, and creating new MBOs right now, I don't think that is what anyone wants to use
the treasury for. Yeah, so for now, where we want to use the treasury to make them? I mean,
that's the people are not going to want to do that. I mean, that's what I'm saying.
We're like in a. That's my hope is that we can at least better what we have right now
to a stable place. So then we can at least have something spin off out of that, you know.
I I always had like this, you know. Sorry, no, no. I was just gonna say like this vision
of like committees, and I've I've talked to Jack about this before, and I'm probably
like gonna put it in the notes to talk to him about it when I talk to him tomorrow.
So I always have this idea that committees should exist and and intersect.
To facilitate them with the like, how to make things happen, like how to organize the organization
to find their own agency. But the problem is what we talked about earlier is that they have
no power, they have no no agency. It's like almost like made believe, right? So
if if if you can just empower these committees to help them, kind of like separate
and be on their own and have those committees become their own entities
and have a self sustainable way and and and own and age self agency at. Sorry,
I think my my mic is messed up. They don't even need to. I think if just as you say,
if they just get some power, the entity like the the committee committees,
they are doing a lot of stuff. At least I mean I'm in the civics committee. Yeah,
but I think it's great what they do with the constitution amendment process, for example. Yeah,
but this is this is the problem. The problem is that you're depending on intersector.
Be in charge of them, and then you can't have it both ways. So you either prepare them
for them to just like eventually be on their own and be able to take care of those tasks,
or you just want everything to be centralized to intersect. And intersect is never going to be good
at all of it. Maybe they can keep some of those things in house, but I don't think that it's.
It's realistic to speak that, you know, realistically speaking, they're not going to be
the best marketers, the best communicators, the best governance people,
the best technical take cares, because that's just not how life works. I mean,
when you put it all under one roof, then you have bad governments, like you have cities
and all this shit. And we're supposed to be creating something that allows
for things to be specialized without just having to be just the top down thing
that handles everything, because otherwise, then you get this bureaucracy that won't allow
anything to happen. So. I just don't. I just don't think that's realistic. I really don't.
That's why you see that they neglect some things, you know, and and then they're good at others.
They focus on some things, but then they neglect the other ones. Like not all committees
work the same. You think the committees don't have power in general in Intersect? That's not true.
If you go to the technical steering committee, it's very different. If you go to
the open source stuff, and you go to some some of these things, they have power.
Is the other ones that don't have any, and those are the ones that shouldn't be under Intersect. So
how can we have Intersect help empower those into something separate? Because but they wouldn't like
they don't have any power because they don't have any funding, and they wouldn't have any funding
under other. There's a reason why they don't have any funding, is because they haven't done
a good job to earn people's trust to fund it. They only get the funds to trust the things
they've done a good job with. Well, and then we're getting back to uh to Twitter or X
and all the misinformation and the you know not so it's reality not so great communication there.
But it's what we have. We have we have Discord. We have you know the platforms. We know them all.
And and they could have done a better job. The the intersect team, I think, failed. I would argue,
in being a glue between the ecosystem and also between being even the committees.
I was chair of a committee in intersect for a year. I was in the intersect steering committee
because of that. The intersect steering committee is there to steer intersect as a ship.
It's not there as a collaboration space between the committees. So you have the marketing committee,
this and that. Maybe the marketing guys are better representing what things. You know,
they're the the marketing guys in the house. They should be servicing also the other committees. So
if the technical steering committee guys don't know how to do public speaking
and and promoting their work, the marketing committee should be helping them because they're
the talent in the house. And and I think that could be a collaboration that can happen, even
if some committees, let's say some of those responsibilities, start working outside. Of intersect.
So when I said we need alternatives, I didn't mean let's create a whole MBO
and and have a millionaire proposal to fund it and and all that. And everyone signs up.
I I was meaning to say like let's fund someone with 50k ADA to run the Catalyst sound halls
without Catalyst. Let's let's you know my proposal for example was grassroots in touch.
I want to go to the four corners of the world and run spaces in different time zones. So you know
small things that different alternatives where people can come and discuss in a different format.
Because unfortunately, and I was for example the worst of them. I think was
the D rep compensation calls. Yeah, you were not getting, no one was getting anywhere,
and that was partially because of the facilitators by Intersect, because of the way they organized
the whole thing of let's jump everyone in a call and start. Discussing, you know,
so they they need to have skills at doing that that I'm not seeing. I I don't know.
I feel like the facilitators or like the employees I think is like they're trying to to facilitate
the committee members and their work, and the committee members they're supposed to do, you know,
the working groups and meetups. Yeah, well, that's the thing. Some people should have
more insight in seeing. Okay, we need to have the SMEs, like expertise in different matters.
We need to have the facilitators. We need to communicate with the community.
I think that's the biggest gap. So one thing is that the Intersect staff is not being a glue
between everything. And when I was there, I was the guy facilitating the calls in my committee
for a year. I had the agenda items. I passed the ball to everyone to speak and and all that.
Now they have Intersect staff doing that for every committee, and so that the chair is just
like a CEO of that committee in that set. But also, I think Intersect failed a lot in in bringing
the community in house. So they have one time hall once every two weeks or something.
It's a monologue. It's streamed to YouTube. It's fine. They're not even continuing what
Catalyst did. And again, I came from the the stage where Catalyst was the sandbox. They should have,
you know. I know that we can't have Jack talking to every orbiter about everything,
but they should have town halls for almost all things. You know, I kept saying in my committee,
I want my committee to be out there and to get people coming to our spaces.
We were hosting spaces as much as possible, and it's hard because, and that's that's
when you can't give up. You know, we did our best to to bring the open source committee outside
to the world, and I can tell you, even there, my committee, that committee was a bit odd
because it's half. Open source committee and have half open source office where there were
two people staff there that were actually writing all the paperwork. So the other thing is
that I've noticed is like it used to be the committees will run their stuff more on their own,
and now all that because I I don't attend anymore, so I don't want to do that.
But I do watch the videos afterwards. I kind of like go in there and find the ones that
I want to watch, and I'm very concerned with the way they handle it because they get in there.
They're like now they have like. They interfere. You'll always have an an intersect member
interfering with a conversation, trying to steer the ideas and direction of things. And I'm like,
no, this is not how you run committees. So that's really bad. Like they really got one thing
is to facilitate. Oh, we're facilitating the secretaries. They should just shut up and take notes.
That's it. They don't need to do anything else. But they get in the way. They literally like, hey,
I think you rotating the team. They're like, yeah, it should be the team themselves.
It shouldn't be the ones doing it. It should be part of the roles and responsibilities
of the committee. That's how it works in every committee. I've served my committees here
and my my communities, and that's how it works. It's part of the job. It's part of the thing.
You have a chair, a vice president, then you have the the you know if you have money,
you have a somebody handling money. You have the secretary, all that stuff,
and that's part of like what it takes to run a committee. But If you are gonna have a staff member
from Intersect, they should not be even felt there. Like, if I don't understand it,
I have seen them get in the middle of like disagreements. If people are just talking, they're like,
"I think you are not understanding what so and so is saying." It's like, "What are you doing?
" It's really toxic. It's not how you should run comedies at all. Like,
I have experienced this shit, and it's very concerning. And that's why I don't attend.
Because if I was staying live, I will be. You, it will become chaos. I wouldn't.
I wouldn't stand for that shit. I'll be like, what the? I I will come find people. You know.
And I don't attend for that reason. You know. I come from from TradFi,
and we had committees for everything and meetings about everything, policies
and projects we're pushing. You know, so I'm used to committees like type of of meeting.
But a lot of people going into, for example, DM MCC, the membership committee. You know,
they're just commit. They're they're just community people. They're not used to having agenda items
and and talking into. You know, so sometimes the facilitator by Intersect needs to intervene
and try to get people rolling. And other times it's a bit like you were saying.
But what Can happen as a virtuous cycle or as a downwards spiral is that the committee
is frustrating because if community people, even like the guys from Riveo or whatever,
are not going to the community committee because you know the level of conversation there is is
too slow, it's too circular, it's too formative, you know they need to find other spaces.
That's why I find that even each commit committee. I was saying that Interset's just a team
of ten people or something, and even each committee is just a group of friends that like that topic.
And Seaman probably felt that when he was founding the the marketing committee with Nat,
and and now there's a different team there that like that topic, or or maybe some overlap.
I'm just pointing out that it's all people articulating with people,
and and we shouldn't just you know take it for granted that it's going to go in a certain way just
because they have the badge or the title or the room name. Well, now they were able to even run as
part of their committee. So you had Intersect employees now officially elected as committee members.
I don't know, I can't even like speak on this, but I want to say hi to Epoch. Epoch, are you here?
Let's go. You know, I kept this running long, just hoping you will attend my party. Just hoping.
So today at three, or the the the World Cup? Yeah, my well, World Cup is happening,
but this is my going away party, and you didn't show up until like, and almost two hours over time.
So I'm so glad. Oh my god, this. So I'm in Michigan, and we're with like the my grandparents,
you know, and it's crazy. Like they tell us we're going to on a hike. And they take us to a beach,
and then they tell us they're taking us to the beach, and then we end up
in a sand dune—literally no water anywhere, pure sand. And I'm just like,
like I can't—I don't know if this just happens when you're old or what, but we can't seem to hit it.
So we've been driving back and forth. Make sure your house has water. Oh,
that's this is the third place that we've been to today. We've been going at it
since like 7 a.m. So I learn I learned that the real thing, like the the real meaning
of the word beach, is nothing to do with the ocean. For me, the beach was always like ocean-related.
So, you move to the states and you go to places like Michigan, or you go to places like Minnesota,
where people don't have ocean; they have lakes, and they say we're going to the beach,
and then you go to the beach, and you're like, this is not a beach, and it's like, yes, it is,
and then you get into like a long discussion and the whole fight, and then you Google it,
and then you realize, oh. Okay, that's not really the meaning of each, and then there you go.
We've had this debate actually already many times, where mother-in-law's running around being like,
"This is not technically a sea, but we actually check all the boxes, other than maybe just one box
that makes it a sea instead of like Michigan or Lake Superior," and and I'm like, "Yeah, maybe
because it's like not connected to shit," and she's like, "No, no, it has to slope, okay,
and this is what it is. It has the the land has to slope into the water. It could be." All kinds,
any kind of water, as long as the land slopes into it for a beach. Yes. Yeah. Oh, like oh my God,
no way. Well, I think like I mean they grew up here, so I think they're kind of like taking us
to the places that like when they in their heyday they would go to the whatever whatever you know,
but it's like been thirty years. So we keep ending up in these weird places
where they're expecting something incredible. It's like, like they took us to this sand dune, right?
And it is really cool. There's like, it's an epic amount of sand, like a mountain. I mean,
is that sand in the air when you have there? It looks like yellowish, so it looks like the sand
is even in the air. No, that there's smog because there's like apparently 150 fires
in Ontario right now, Canada, and all that smoke is coming down and hitting us,
and it's actually terrible, but. We're in the "fuck it, we're here" mode, so you know,
put up with the smog and just get out there and just get it done. Just
like I had to pop in for the going away party, even though I'm in a parking lot of a beach
and I'm staring at the parking meter man, and he will not get me. But um, had to come in
and say say hi to Jenny. That's my call. No water. That's you reminding me, Jenny. I'm here.
You're safe to go. You're the one person left. Lido didn't show up, but that was expected.
So it's okay. I love lighting. Wherever you are, just doing karaoke. Thank you for showing up.
I need you to do it. I was rough. The last place I had no reception. I tried to connect from the top
of the sand dune, and that, and I was like, oh, maybe if I keep walking, I'll get to the water,
right? And I kept going and going, and I found like another like mile of sand
and this old woman sitting on a rock. Like it was like a video game or something. Like you know,
you have to ask the NPC like what's going on. So I'm like, hey, like if I keep walking.
Will I get to a beach, like a stunning, beautiful beach, right there? And she was like, "No,
you'll find some signs that tell you that if you fall down there, the helicopter
is going to have to come get you. So don't do that." But it's pretty nice, I guess,
if you're just looking at it. And I was like, "Thank you, ma'am. You just saved me two hours
of my life." So I turned around and left. But I hope you're having a beautiful day.
I hope your soccer team wins today. Guess we will see very soon. You mean Lamar?
So who's gonna win today? So okay, Epoch, are you gonna start taking me more serious now
about Spain winning the World Cup? No, not yet. I mean, at this point,
I'm kind of just annoyed that the top four teams before the World Cup are the four in the thing.
So now I feel like I don't care anymore. Like I wanted the underdog, at least one underdog to win.
You know? Now it's just like I don't know. They're all good. They're all so good.
I think we turned Epoch into a World Cup fan in one World Cup, just like that. I know all about
the Golden Boot and the the Golden Glove, and we're gonna do it. I know the wire.
The wire takes its own prize this year. But but but even you know the the clay thing, you know,
it's not betting. But how are we doing there? It's like, are we still on the same ranking? I mean,
I did horribly in the first matches. Now we have to wait until the end to to see if we get
those extra ten points. For picking the right teams and points for, you know whether you you thought
it was going to end in penalties or not. So we'll see. I think I'm dead. I'm gone.
With France losing, that was my last chance to make a comeback because I had Mbappe
as the the lead scorer, Golden Boot guy. I did. I did too. So I didn't get those points. Yeah. Yeah.
Mbappe, but. Rugged. Rugged. Where is that list again? I have to find it. Hold on.
I have to do some research here. Yeah, my predictions turned out for. Yeah,
I took a screenshot of my predictions because I don't know how else to find them. But yeah,
I I did select Spain as the winner, so we'll see. I'm still in the run for that one.
And then I don't know. I did say that it was not going to end on on penalties, so we'll see.
Did just did you say yes to penalties or no to penalties? Do you remember Epoch?
Did you say it was going to end on penalties? Yeah, yeah. I don't remember what I put,
but I remember the questions. Okay, that's what I was asking. If you remember what you said,
I said I don't. I think I, I've given up so much on that on that competition that like my brain is
just actively garbage collecting the memory. It's like I don't need to remember anything. Oh my god!
I'm trying to like. I concede. I'm trying here so hard to like explain Ben,
because you know Ben handling this like doing the the the fight stuff,
and we scheduled him for Friday. And he's like, it needs to say two thirty at three pm,
and this is two thirty. But I'm like, Cardinal Coffee starts thirty minutes before.
I can't make it say something else. Oh man, I know this is this is struggle, guys. I'm telling you.
I found it. Oh man, you know I'm I'm in that. By the way, that SpO Accelerator for RealFi.
They like I got some email being like, congratulations, you can be in the first cohort of the thing.
We know it is. Not everybody applied then. Yeah, I don't. I mean, I I don't think
I remember applying. I think I applied. Oh, for real? But it happened. Oh,
you're not talking about the the the stuff. No, Ben's thing. Oh, I was thinking like, remember
that you? Did you ended up applying the other day for the whole like Draper thing? No, I have.
I was on a mountain. Oh, I thought that's what you were talking about. I was like, no way!
You got it. No, I thought that's what I thought. No, I had the same. The same. Like,
I looked at my email and I saw the congratulations, and I was like, did I apply?
And then it took me a minute to figure out that it was another thing. Uh, but it's I guess similar,
but I guess there's no money, maybe. But I don't know. I need to drill into it,
and then I get an email yesterday. It's like, "Welcome to week one of the cohort. Like,
prepare your marketing campaign." And I'm like, "Oh Jesus Christ!" They're like,
"What is your unique offering? How do you position yourself?" And I have to like fill out.
There's like some videos for me to learn how to like craft a message. You know,
Epoch Pool the blah blah blah. So I don't know. I don't really know what I'm doing.
I'm obviously at a beach. You must have applied. What? How else are you going to get an email?
You must have applied and you don't remember. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Well,
I don't even know what you're supposed to do with them. I mean, they're like, wow,
that's interesting. I got to read more about that. It's yeah, we're learning. We're learn.
We'll learn together because um, I don't like. I told Nick. I was like, Nick, congrats,
we're in the thing. He's like, great. What's it mean? I was like, I don't know. Okay,
so do we get any money? I kind of wish the space was happening. Okay, then I don't care. You do it.
Exactly. So we have to spend any money? No. Okay. Okay. There you go. Oh, I do have a. We're in.
You can tell we're in bear market vibes because for every year we do like
an an epoch founder dinner, we go to a nice steak restaurant, talk business. Well,
this year we're doing it in the buffet at the Aria, so we're we're um we're bringing it back
a couple notches due to bear market climate. Really can't can't spend. There's like I'm telling you,
so we'll be at the buffet talking business. There's a Asian place there,
like a Asian like they have the best. Like it's kind of like an In the open kind of lobby area,
if it's lobby, but kind of open area, and they have the best dumplings. It's actually really good.
I suggest you go there. It's really what's the name? I'll find it for you. I'll find it
and I'll send it to you. It's in the area. His dumplings, they're up, they're up my. Dude,
and they're amazing. I found out about it because one year Lena took me and my husband there.
It's like, oh, you guys want to eat the best dumplings? And we went there,
and it was freaking amazing. So, have you been to Dintai Fun? Mm. Are you guys going for lunch
or dinner? Dinner. Dinner. Yeah. Oh, I'll find it. I'll find it for you. It's like in Taiwan.
In Taiwan? Maybe. Maybe it's holding up. Oh here. Oh, that's what it is. That's what it is. Is it?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Then yeah, that's like the most famous. Dumpling place.
Their spicy cucumbers are legendary. If you don't get there in the first like thirty minutes,
you don't get it. Yeah, that's what it is. That's amazing. Oh my god, that place is so good. Yeah,
it's wildly good. So they have it there. So that's that's what we did. So I forgot.
I didn't know they had one in Vegas because because the the main one is in Taipei at the bottom
of the one and one building. Oh, well, they send the area, dude. So maybe you should do it there.
That's crazy. That's amazing. Little pop up. I love it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna look into that. Yeah,
so naturally, good typon. Yeah, make a reservation, and it's really good. Oh my god, we ate so much.
It was, we're super happy. I forgot to go last time I was there, but have one for me. All right,
guys, this is our call. We definitely stay here long. I think I didn't want to let it go,
and the conversation was awesome. But I'm not going anywhere. I'll be here.
I'll be back on Friday for the Real Life Conversation with Maureen. But tomorrow,
you're going to see Christina will be hosting, and there's two people coming here tomorrow. One,
I think it's Technical Steering Committee. Kevin Hammond said he wanted to come,
so we do have Kevin joining tomorrow with the Technical Steering Committee.
Then we have Mateo from Fluent coming here to talk about Bifrost. So a couple goodies. So yeah,
there you go. And I love you guys. I'll see you on the flip side. Thank you, Jenny. Great,
fantastic run. You're an amazing host. Keep doing it. I hope you'll stop in every once in a while.
And just want to say thanks again for just being a rock in the the hosting game here.
It's not easy showing up and picking up interviews with no notice or starting the space
when you're sitting in a doctor's office and your mom's leg is broken or something. Like,
there's always some shit, and you somehow always pull it together. So. Thanks for being great,
and I'll see. I know I'll see you around, but you deserve a nice thanks, and you just you've done
great work here. I appreciate the hell out of it. Thanks, Jenny. We love you.
Thank you. Thank you, guys. Bye, bye. Bye, bye. Go watch the game. Woohoo!
Love you guys.
